Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 190542



> Alla: 
> > Now raise your hand, if somebody has ANY doubt that Snape would have gone there no matter who gave him that information. Does his responsibility in the matter gets any less just because the party who actually gave him the information may have wanted to harm him?!
> > 
> > I just do not think so.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Now raise your hand if you have any doubt that Voldemort would have gone to the Potters no matter who gave him the information about the prophecy. Does that mean Snape didn't have any responsibility for what happened?

Alla:

But of course! I would have hold responsible ANY person who would have gave that information to Voldemort not just Snape. Was there any doubt of that? 


Pippin: 
> Conversely,  if Dumbledore had used Snape's information to  trap  Voldemort, Snape would have gotten that Order of Merlin, First Class. 
> 
> The general principle, enshrined  in law and ethics for thousands of years, is that the person who acts in good faith is responsible only for the consequences of his actions that he could reasonably foresee.  So, for example, even though Harry told Cedric to take the cup,  Cedric's death is not his fault. But it *is* Fake!Moody's fault, even though he didn't want Cedric to take the Cup and would have prevented it if he could.

Alla:

Except to me the HUGE difference is that Cedric did not have any choice in the matter, not a real choice. Everything was prearranged, so of course anybody who would have taken the cup would have suffered the same fate. Snape had a choice, a very real one IMO.

Pippin:
> That's because the person who acts out of malice is responsible for everything that happens as a consequence, whether intended or not. Snape is responsible for Lily's death because he was acting maliciously (towards the wizarding world)  in bringing the prophecy to Voldemort. That doesn't take away Voldemort's choice, or mean that Snape *made* Voldemort attack Lily. He certainly didn't entice Voldemort to do it.  It just means that both Snape and Voldemort have responsibility for what happened, along with Peter Pettigrew and any other DE's that were involved. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, of course, again when did I ever said otherwise? Sirius is responsible for what he did, but that does not take away Snape's responsibility. If Snape died, Sirius would have been responsible for that, but not alone, not alone Pippin, as far as I am concerned. Without Snape going there, nothing would have happened. As long as we do not forget Snape's part in what have happened, huge part in my view, please I have no problem with you charging Sirius with anything you like. As I said, the inferences that I am making as Sirius' fan do not matter, because they are inferences, I perceive it as stupid joke that could have ended deadly, because I am willing to give Sirius' benefit of the doubt, but as far as facts are concerned the possibility that he may have wanted to kill Snape is equally valid. But what I am objecting to is taking out Snape's decision to go there, which he would have done no matter who would have told him that information. That does NOT absolve Sirius of may have wanting to kill Snape at all if thats what he wanted. 

Pippin:
>  Snape's death in the Shrieking Shack is supposed to be a karmic reward for his ingratitude to James for saving him? Really?  Being ungrateful is loutish, certainly. But a sin??? 

Alla:

Goodness, no, not a reward, a carmic payback, for tormenting James's son for one of many James' offenses amongst them being saving him IMO.

Pipin: 
> Yes, he gets killed by a monster in the same place where he might have died if James had not saved him. But JKR's point is that sooner or later there's a monster waiting for us all. Our only choice is whether to meet death like a fool, as Snape would have done if he'd encountered Lupin, or like a hero. And even the man who did not live  life as a hero can still die like one.
> 
> "its bitter teeth
> closed on his neck, and covered him
> with waves of blood"
> --Beowulf


Alla:

That was beatifully written Pippin, but unless we are in JKR's head, we cannot be sure what her point was yes? I think my canon based speculation about the way he died is as valid as yours.

JMO,

Alla