Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic

[Mike Crudele]

No: HPFGUIDX 190652

Mike:
I don't know why I never responded to you 3 years ago, as this was such an interesting topic to me. But now that I'm done with school, and I just saw my original post in my archive of posts, I feel an urge to re-strike up the conversation. Go figure ;>)

> > In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182966
> > Mike wrote: 
> > 
> > Also, in both cases there seems to be a verbal contract in the 
> > offing. Lily offered her life "instead" of Harry's. Voldemort 
> > offers to cease the battle, not have any more of Harry's 
> > friends "die for you" if Harry gives himself up. The fact 
> > that Voldemort intends to kill Harry is so heavily implied 
> > that there can be no doubt as to what the verbal contract is 
> > demanding of Harry and therefore what Voldemort is conceding
> > in exchange.


> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182975  
> "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
> 
> As to the likelihood of an magical contract, I think in Lily's
> case, she /proposed/ a contract, but Voldemort didn't accept.
> In the later case of Voldemort killing Harry, it seems far
> more likely that Voldemort proposed a contract and that
> Harry accepted it. His acceptance might have sealed the deal.
> It might have given force to that situation that came from
> another source in Lily's case.

Mike now:

But what about Voldemort's original offer? I realize it is an implied offer, "stand aside, you silly girl" and "this is my last warning" (DH, p.344, US), but when combined with Lily's offer of "kill me instead", I think we have a contract. Voldemort proposed to spare Lily, Lily counter-proposed giving up her life instead, and Voldemort bound the contract by accepting Lily's offer to kill her. Obviously, Voldemort did not intend to be bound by the contract he just made, as his subsequent actions clearly showed. But just as obviously, he was bound by Lily's counter-offer, which he had accepted, unwittingly as it probably was. We should remember that Dumbledore said that Voldemort was clueless when it came to ancient magic. Which does make sense; LV was into pushing the boundaries and strutting his stuff with newer, and in his mind, more powerful magic.

Was there also "Love Magic" involved? Dumbledore certainly thought so, as I think you do too, if I read your post correctly. And maybe this is the extra magical ingredient that made the protection of Harry so complete in this instance. This ingredient was most likely not present in Harry's sacrifice in the forest, which would explain why Voldemort's spells were not completely ineffectual in the aftermath of Harry's acceptance of Voldemort's contract.



> bboyminn continued:
> But now we must ask, is every verbal agreement in the form
> of a simple statement, magically binding? Certainly people
> make vaguely contractual statements in common everyday 
> conversation. Are those casual statements bonded and sealed
> by the fact that magical people are making them? It would 
> seem to me NO. You can have the full force of law, or in this
> case magic, tied to every casual statement you make. There
> has to be something real and significant at stake to be 
> serious enough to invoke that ancient magic; at least in my
> mind it does.

Mike:

I know we're stepping into the realm of writing our own version of how magic works, but I'm in agreement with you. It would certainly seem that something significant, perhaps as serious as life or death, is needed to invoke the ancient magic. It kinda falls in line with splitting the soul being done by murdering someone. Torture, no matter how henious, won't do it. So it doesn't bother me to assume that this type of powerful ancient magic requires mortal sacrifice to be at stake, invoked by a life or death contract.



> bboyminn:
> 
> I think likely other people and parents have died trying to
> protect their children or to protect others, so very much I
> think that Voldemort offered Lily a choice plays a huge 
> role. However, it would seem that in most cases, when bad 
> guys attack, they intend to kill everybody. They might kill
> the kids first to torture the parents, and the parents might
> plead 'kill me instead' but likely they were always going to
> be killed. So, I think there is some weight given to the 
> fact that Voldemort really would have killed Harry then just
> walked away leaving Lily broken but alive.
> 
> My point is that simple self-sacrifice, or offering to die
> instead, is not enough. There has to be the very real 
> prospect that you will live if you yield to the bad guy, 
> <snip>
> So, when all things are considered, Lily's case was very
> unique and special. I don't think those specific combinations
> of circumstances occurs all that often. 

Mike:

I think we agree that there was special circumstances in Lily's case. My contention is that part of those circumstances include a contract that invoked ancient magic. You may be saying the same thing in a different way by including the need for a "prospect that you will live" as part of the circumstances. That's where I think the contract comes in. If Voldemort had not tendered the offer to spare Lily in the first place, there would be no initialization of life or death contract negotiations. There had to be a prospect for life for Lily to form a basis to a contract. Lily's counter-offer of her life for Harry's furthers the negotiations that Voldemort opened. If Voldemort does not make an initial offer, Lily's erstwhile counter-offer becomes simply pleading for her son's life, or as you said, simple self-sacrifice.

Or, you may be disagreeing with me. :>)

Mike