Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 190654


> Alla:
> 
> If Sirius does not disagree that Snape's life was in danger, to me it does not mean that if Lupin's was in more danger he would come out and say so necessarily, you know? In a sense I just do not see why he would even raise that. Now, if he did not think that Snape was in danger, i would agree with you, he would have said so.
> 
> As to Dumbledore, did Dumbledore even know about Sectusemptra as being Snape's creation? I honestly do not remember either way. I am quite fond of speculation that Snape went to kill Lupin as you know BUT it is only speculation so going strictly by canon  I would agree that Snape's life was in more danger - once he decided to go there of course. But see my response to Pippin - when I say that Lupin was in more danger, I mean the threat of his execution and that Snape even if bitten may not have been dead, if I remember what book six says correctly.

Pippin:
 Dumbledore certainly knows about Sectum Sempra by DH where we see him caution Snape about approaching Harry in the light of what happened with cutting Fred's ear. 

Lupin says Sectum Sempra was a specialty of Snape's, and I don't see how he could have known that unless Snape was using it at school. And I think (pace, Carol) that we see him use it in SWM. There's no gasp of horror or awe when Snape cuts James's cheek, so my guess is Snape was careful to use it in a way that wouldn't make people think it was any worse than the usual run of student hexes. Which would mean neither Sirius nor Dumbledore  had a reason to think it was any great danger to Lupin. 

Dumbledore doesn't react as if he thought either Sirius or Snape was deliberately trying to kill someone. He keeps a very close watch on people he suspects of that, and yet both Sirius and Snape continued to do things that Dumbledore wouldn't have approved of if he'd known about them. 


> Alla:
> 
> Um, okay lets do *fictional reality* check.
> 
> If Snape had been bitten, would Lupin had been executed? True or false?

Pippin:

False.  

 I assume you are basing your assumptions on the case of Buckbeak.

But consider...  Buckbeak couldn't be killed out of hand. As FBAWTFT tells us, the decision has been made to protect magical creatures, even the most dangerous ones. 


There was a hearing, in fact there were five or six months of judicial procedures. Hardly "no hesitations". The hearing could conceivably have found that Buckbeak was *not* a "mad" hippogryff. That is what the kids expected to happen  and they were shocked when they learned that Buckbeak was going to be killed. It was obvious to them that what had happened to Draco was in no way Buckbeak's fault -- and they can't understand how anyone could possibly see it differently.


 Plus, they are certain that Dumbledore is not going to let it happen if he can possibly help it, and they have an inflated idea of how much he can do. 

 I would expect Sirius and Snape  to think the same way -- that legally Lupin would not be blamed for doing  what werewolves do and that Dumbledore in any case would protect him.  That is why Snape insists so strongly that Lupin must have been in on The Prank and that he does not deserve Dumbledore's protection. 

My DH (that's dear husband, not Deathly Hallows) asked me if I was getting any new insights out of these discussions after all these years. What I've seen from this discussion is how  manipulative Sirius was.

As we know, Sirius picks on people because he's bored. He's bored because he has a craving for high-risk situations. But he doesn't want to take responsibility for endangering himself and those near him, so he's constantly playing a game of "stop me before I go too far." As you pointed out, Alla, there are ways a student can challenge himself without rule-breaking. But by rule-breaking and picking on people,  Sirius makes his behaviors someone else's problem, and that's what I see going on here. 

So, to get back to your original question of  what  Sirius was thinking, he was probably thinking, "I'm bored." So, as Lupin put it, he decides it will be "amusing" to tell Snape how to get into the tunnel. 


First he manipulates Snape by putting him in a double-bind. If Snape goes down the tunnel, he's exposing himself to whatever dangers or humiliations Sirius has planned for him. Or it could be Sirius is bluffing and there's no danger at all beneath the willow, just a secret the staff doesn't want the students to know about. 

But if Snape *doesn't* go down the tunnel, he will lose face. Bad enough if there really is something dangerous under there, and even worse if there isn't, and Sirius will make sure everyone knows about it. 

So, yes, Snape has a choice. But it's  a choice between certain humiliation and possible death. It would take a far more mature and grounded personality than Snape has at this point to see the first as the more desirable choice, to see Sirius's taunts as too feeble to hurt him. And Sirius knows that. 

But Sirius isn't finished yet -- it would be really stupid for him to let anyone know what he'd done if he actually was planning this as a murder. He wouldn't have told anyone what he was up to, and he would have made sure Snape didn't either. 

But the word does get out, and James comes to the rescue. Later on in OOP, we'll see this is a pattern. Over and over again, Sirius will inform someone he's going to do something he knows is forbidden and dangerous, and Dumbledore, Molly, Lupin, Harry and even Snape(!) all try to stop him. Sirius never takes responsibility for stopping himself. 

I think that's really what I like least about him -- it's okay for his friends to enable his behavior,  but when he ropes Harry into doing it, well, that's ugly. 

I want to make it clear I'm not saying Sirius does this deliberately--as Alla says, it would take years of therapy for him to understand how dysfunctional he is.

Pippin