From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar  1 01:42:59 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 01:42:59 -0000
Subject: Severus / character, place names
In-Reply-To: <ikh4v5+fe1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ikhiv3+8lp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190159


> Geoff:
> I remember getting very cross when she revealed that because I wrote a long 
> post pointing out that Harry could have relatives because there could be very 
> distant ones of whom Dumbledore knew nothing.

Pippin:
Of course realistically there could have been other relatives. But we're not in the realm of realism here.  When she gave us Voldemort as the one and only remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin, JKR let us know that we're  in   the same stew of romance and ancient beliefs that gave us the son of Skywalker,   Isildur's Heir, and the DaVinci Code. We want to believe, *Harry* wants to believe, that nobility of character can be inherited. And JKR invokes that belief in order to subvert it, and show us that  while ability can be inherited, nobility cannot, because it  rests in the choice between what is right and what is easy. It lies in doing what *doesn't* come naturally. 

Pippin




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Mar  5 18:57:49 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Mar 2011 18:57:49 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/6/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1299351469.10.72597.m1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190160

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar  6 17:55:38 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 6 Mar 2011 17:55:38 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/6/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1299434138.43.28171.m7@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190161

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Mar  6 23:09:05 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 23:09:05 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ikbf71+6ha7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il146h+ctki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190162



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > >
> > 
> > Potioncat:
> > Has anyone ever worked out how many characters or place names in the series? Clearly she put a great deal of thought into some names and a bit less in others. Still, it's curious that she forgot Lily's maiden name was Evans and gave it to a throw away character as well.
> >
> Pippin:
> Jim Dale or Stephen Frye may have -- they had to figure out how to pronounce them all. :)
> 
> I don't believe JKR forgot Lily's maiden name was Evans, she just misjudged the effect. I think she was going for the idea that Petunia Dursley, nee Evans, who complains that Harry Potter is such a common name, had a common name herself. 
> 
> Pippin
>

Nikkalmati

Commenting on Petunia's statement, "common" has two meanings.  One is not unusual, frequently used, but I believe Petunia was referring to the second meaning - low class.  If taken literally a potter is a tradesman and I think Petunia was making a snide remark about Harry's father's famiy.  I have no clue about the social status of "Evans."

Nikkalmati (for full disclosure there are some Evanses in my family tree)




From ncfan at att.net  Sun Mar  6 23:17:20 2011
From: ncfan at att.net (ncfan17)
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 23:17:20 -0000
Subject: Evans (was Re: Severus)
In-Reply-To: <il146h+ctki@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il14m0+cdhh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190163


> Nikkalmati
>
> Commenting on Petunia's statement, "common" has two meanings.  One
is not unusual, frequently used, but I believe Petunia was referring
to the second meaning - low class.  If taken literally a potter is a
tradesman and I think Petunia was making a snide remark about Harry's
> father's famiy.  I have no clue about the social status of "Evans."


To Nikkalmati:

Petuna implying that the Potters are low-class? Oh that's rich, since
the Potters are essentially the Wizarding equivalent of old money and
the Dursleys (unless there's something about Vernon and/or Petunia's
backgrounds we don't know) are Muggle nouveau riche.

ncfan17




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Mon Mar  7 04:51:48 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 20:51:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Evans, Harry, common (was Re: Severus)
In-Reply-To: <il146h+ctki@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <162674.89667.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190164

> Nikkalmati:
> Commenting on Petunia's statement, "common" has two meanings.
> One is not unusual, frequently used, but I believe Petunia was
> referring to the second meaning - low class. If taken literally
> a potter is a tradesman and I think Petunia was making a snide
> remark about Harry's father's famiy. I have no clue about the
> social status of "Evans."


June:
Petunia was not referring to the name Potter, she was referring to
the name Harry. Her husband had just asked her what the Potters'
son's name was and her answer was "Harry, nastily common name if
you ask me."









From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Mar  7 06:56:09 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 06:56:09 -0000
Subject: Evans, Harry, common (was Re: Severus)
In-Reply-To: <162674.89667.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <il1vi9+ibdh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190165

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Nikkalmati:
> > Commenting on Petunia's statement, "common" has two meanings.
> > One is not unusual, frequently used, but I believe Petunia was
> > referring to the second meaning - low class. If taken literally
> > a potter is a tradesman and I think Petunia was making a snide
> > remark about Harry's father's famiy. I have no clue about the
> > social status of "Evans."
 
> June:
> Petunia was not referring to the name Potter, she was referring to
> the name Harry. Her husband had just asked her what the Potters'
> son's name was and her answer was "Harry, nastily common name if
> you ask me."

Geoff:
Quite correct... The canon reference is:

'"What's his name again? Howard, isn't it?"
"Harry. Nasty, common name, if you ask me."'
(PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.11 UK edition:)

Curiously, if this had been set even three or four years later, it would have 
been the opposite because, after Charles and Diana's second son was born,
Harry became, and still is, very fashionable.

Which I am sure annoyed Petunia immensely...
:-)

Re Nikkalmati's comment, if Petunias /had/ been referring to Potter as a low 
class name being a trade name, this is rather amusing (and typically snobbish 
from her) because a huge number of British families have trade names, usually 
ending in "-er". Mine is a less obvious one for example!




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  7 17:50:04 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:50:04 -0000
Subject: Evans, Harry, common (was Re: Severus)
In-Reply-To: <162674.89667.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <il35sc+un7r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190166



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
....
> 
> 
> June:
> Petunia was not referring to the name Potter, she was referring to
> the name Harry. Her husband had just asked her what the Potters'
> son's name was and her answer was "Harry, nastily common name if
> you ask me."

Steve:

The Odd part of that is that Prince Harry has to have been alive when she made that comment. He was born in 1984, and I believe the story takes place in the early 1990's.

Of course Prince Harry is not actually named 'Harry'. His full name is-

Prince Henry Charles Albert David of Wales

Still, I think Petunia is one of those delusional people, who upon having this piece of information thrust on her, would have simply replied, "Well, that's different." 

Steve/bboyminn








From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  7 17:55:47 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:55:47 -0000
Subject: Evans, Harry, common - Prince Harry 1984
In-Reply-To: <il35sc+un7r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il3673+oe54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190167



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02@> wrote:
> ....
> > 
> > 
> > June:
> > Petunia was not referring to the name Potter, she was referring to
> > the name Harry. Her husband had just asked her what the Potters'
> > son's name was and her answer was "Harry, nastily common name if
> > you ask me."
> 
> Steve:
> 
> The Odd part of that is that Prince Harry has to have been alive when she made that comment. He was born in 1984, and I believe the story takes place in the early 1990's.
> 
> ...
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>

Steve:

An Amendment -

Harry's mother and father died in October 1981, so the story, as we know it, begins 10 years later when Harry is 11 years old; making the year at the beginning of the story 1992. 

In that year, Prince Harry would have been 8 years old.

For what it is worth.

Steve/bboyminn




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Mar  7 20:14:48 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 20:14:48 -0000
Subject: Evans, Harry, common - Prince Harry 1984
In-Reply-To: <il3673+oe54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il3ebo+kdac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190168



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

Steve: 
> > The Odd part of that is that Prince Harry has to have been alive when she made that comment. He was born in 1984, and I believe the story takes place in the early 1990's.

Steve:
> An Amendment -
> 
> Harry's mother and father died in October 1981, so the story, as we know it, begins 10 years later when Harry is 11 years old; making the year at the beginning of the story 1992. 
> 
> In that year, Prince Harry would have been 8 years old.

Geoff:
Sorry,Steve, but I must stand by my argument.

Petunia made that comment on 1st November 1981, the day after the Potters 
were killed, when Harry was 15 months old.




From lynde at post.com  Mon Mar  7 22:09:56 2011
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:09:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Underage/misuse of magic (was Re: Percy and
 Pyramids)
In-Reply-To: <212515.86623.qm@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CDAB2B86CCE411-19E8-3E46@web-mmc-d04.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190169



> I actually really like that scene. Arabella recognized from her 
feelings that there were dementors there, and knew Harry was 
perfectly innocent and had done very well, but to really convince 
a majority to vote with Harry and prevent a terrible injustice, 
she felt she had to add a lie. It's a nice illustration of the 
dilemma that can come up between doing the right thing and following 
> a set of rules (no matter how much you believe in them generally).

June:
I don't think she lied. I reread the chapters involved here and I 
think it could be taken either way depending on how the reader sees 
it but I think she did see the Dementors as they were gliding away 
from Harry and Dudley and what she said in court was the truth. Look 
at it this way. Mrs. Figg is a squib and there are lots of wizards 
and witches at this point still who believe in Dumbledore. If he 
wanted someone to lie on the stand I would expect he would have 
gotten a witch or wizard and possibly more than one witness. Also 
Umbridge was the only person who knew the dementors where there 
because as you (rightfully) said she had sent them after Harry.

Lynda:
I have never thought Mrs. Figg lied on the stand. I think she reported what she remembered. As a squib, up there in front of the entire wizarding court, she was overwhelmed and under-confidant, but she did not lie.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Mar  8 03:43:11 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 03:43:11 -0000
Subject: Evans, Harry, common (was Re: Severus)
In-Reply-To: <il1vi9+ibdh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il48kf+c7ip@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190170



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02@> wrote:
> >
> > > Nikkalmati:
> > > Commenting on Petunia's statement, "common" has two meanings.
> > > One is not unusual, frequently used, but I believe Petunia was
> > > referring to the second meaning - low class. If taken literally
> > > a potter is a tradesman and I think Petunia was making a snide
> > > remark about Harry's father's famiy. I have no clue about the
> > > social status of "Evans."
>  
> > June:
> > Petunia was not referring to the name Potter, she was referring to
> > the name Harry. Her husband had just asked her what the Potters'
> > son's name was and her answer was "Harry, nastily common name if
> > you ask me."
> 
> Geoff:
> Quite correct... The canon reference is:
> 
> '"What's his name again? Howard, isn't it?"
> "Harry. Nasty, common name, if you ask me."'
> (PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.11 UK edition:)
> 
> Curiously, if this had been set even three or four years later, it would have 
> been the opposite because, after Charles and Diana's second son was born,
> Harry became, and still is, very fashionable.
> 
> Which I am sure annoyed Petunia immensely...
> :-)
> 
> Re Nikkalmati's comment, if Petunias /had/ been referring to Potter as a low 
> class name being a trade name, this is rather amusing (and typically snobbish 
> from her) because a huge number of British families have trade names, usually 
> ending in "-er". Mine is a less obvious one for example!
>

Nikkalmati

Sorry, I didn't check the quote.  I was just commenting on what was said before about why JKR used Evans as the name for another character besides Lily.  

Nikkalmati




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar  8 16:18:08 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 16:18:08 -0000
Subject: Evans (was Re: Severus)
In-Reply-To: <il14m0+cdhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il5ks0+ee1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190171

ncfan17:
> 
> Petuna implying that the Potters are low-class? Oh that's rich, since
> the Potters are essentially the Wizarding equivalent of old money and
> the Dursleys (unless there's something about Vernon and/or Petunia's
> backgrounds we don't know) are Muggle nouveau riche.
> 

Pippin:
I doubt that Petunia ever knew that Lily had married into money. As Harry thinks to himself somewhere in the earlier books, the Dursley's disdain for all things magical wouldn't extend to a pile of wizarding gold. 

Lily started going out with James in her 7th year. By that time, I think the sisters were sufficiently estranged, and Lily had become sophisticated enough in guarding her secrets, that Petunia wouldn't have known. 

It would be just like Petunia to think that all wizarding families must be as poorly off as the Snapes. It would be just like Lily to amuse herself by letting Petunia think so. And if Petunia ever did see James, he'd have been wearing odd-looking Muggle clothes and he wouldn't have a car. He wouldn't look like Petunia's idea of a a wealthy person.

Pippin




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  8 17:40:20 2011
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 17:40:20 -0000
Subject: Underage/misuse of magic (was Re: Percy and Pyramids)
In-Reply-To: <8CDAB2B86CCE411-19E8-3E46@web-mmc-d04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <il5pm4+b874@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190172








--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lynde at ... wrote:
 
> > I actually really like that scene. Arabella recognized from her 
> feelings that there were dementors there, and knew Harry was 
> perfectly innocent and had done very well, but to really convince 
> a majority to vote with Harry and prevent a terrible injustice, 
> she felt she had to add a lie. It's a nice illustration of the 
> dilemma that can come up between doing the right thing and following a set of rules (no matter how much you believe in them generally).
 
> June:

> I don't think she lied. I reread the chapters involved here and I 
> think it could be taken either way depending on how the reader sees 
> it but I think she did see the Dementors as they were gliding away 
> from Harry and Dudley and what she said in court was the truth. Look 
> at it this way. Mrs. Figg is a squib and there are lots of wizards 
> and witches at this point still who believe in Dumbledore. If he 
> wanted someone to lie on the stand I would expect he would have 
> gotten a witch or wizard and possibly more than one witness. Also 
> Umbridge was the only person who knew the dementors where there 
> because as you (rightfully) said she had sent them after Harry.
 
> Lynda:

> I have never thought Mrs. Figg lied on the stand. I think she reported what she remembered. As a squib, up there in front of the entire wizarding court, she was overwhelmed and under-confidant, but she did not lie.


zanooda:

Well, JKR wrote on her website that Squibs are unable to see the dementors, but Mrs.Figg insisted on the stand that she saw them and tried to describe them. So why wouldn't we call it a lie :-)? She *did* lie to save Harry. Here is the link to JKR's site (text version), hope it works: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=19 





From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  9 01:57:51 2011
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 01:57:51 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 15: The Quidditch Final
Message-ID: <il6mqv+u11q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190173

This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered off-list (to email inboxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

PoA Chapter 15:  The Quidditch Final

Buckbeak loses his case and is sentenced to be executed.  Ron vows to help with research for the appeal.  Malfoy mocks Hagrid and is slapped by Hermione.  Ron and Harry go to Charms but Hermione misses the class.  They later find her sleeping in the common room.  She later quits Divination, walking out in the middle of class.  

Easter holiday brings more work.  Everyone has homework; Hermione has more homework than anyone because she has more classes than anyone.  She has bags under her eyes.  Ron begins reading up on Hippogriffs while Harry practices Quidditch.  If Gryffindor wins the Quidditch cup it will be the first time since Ron's brother, Charlie, was on the team.  The entire school focuses on the upcoming match, which will decide who wins the cup.  On game day, the Gryffindors, Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs are decked out in Gryffindor scarlet.  Only Slytherins sport Slytherin green and silver.  The game is intense with fouls committed by both teams.  Several penalty shots are made.  Harry has to wait until Gryffindor is fifty or more points ahead or they will win the match while losing the cup.  He sees a potential mass foul against Angelina and swoops in to scatter the Slytherin team.  When he recovers he sees Malfoy heading for the Snitch.  With a burst of speed, Harry secures the snitch.  The game is won, the cup goes to Gryffindor.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


1.  Hermione misses Charms and is found asleep over her Arithmancy book.  Later, she is described as having bags under her eyes like Lupin.  Did you think she was just overdoing it, as Harry suggests, or did you think magic was involved?

2.  Which house has been winning the Quidditch cup?  Do you think it was one house more than any other or that the other three houses each had their share of winning seasons?

3.  Why were Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff rooting for Gryffindor?

4.  Lee Jordan's commentary earns him a warning for bias.  Other than the most blatant examples, do you think Lee Jordan's commentary was fair, or was it biased all through the game?

5.  In our world, imitation or correspondence can be considered "sympathetic magic."  During the Gryffindor/Slytherin match, three-quarters of the houses wear Gryffindor scarlet while one quarter of the houses wear Slytherin green.  Do you think there is a similar folk belief in sympathetic magic in the Potterverse?  If so, could the wearing of the team colors have helped Gryffindor win?

6.  Add your own question here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please
see "POST DH Chapter Discussions" at 
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Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 16 of Prisoner of Azkaban, "Professor Trelawney's Prediction," coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Goblet of Fire chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (without the space).




From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  9 02:38:06 2011
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20)
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 02:38:06 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 15: The Quidditch Final
In-Reply-To: <il6mqv+u11q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il6p6e+gfis@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190174




> Snip of lovely summary<
> 
> 1.  Hermione misses Charms and is found asleep over her Arithmancy book.  Later, she is described as having bags under her eyes like Lupin.  Did you think she was just overdoing it, as Harry suggests, or did you think magic was involved?
> 

Megan: 
When I initially read the book, I was having all sorts of sinister thoughts about her being cursed by someone to have to do their work for them in addition to her own, or being forced to do some horrible tasks that were keeping her awake. In retrospect, I kind of wonder why she didn't use the time turner to sneak off and get some extra sleep. 

> 2.  Which house has been winning the Quidditch cup?  Do you think it was one house more than any other or that the other three houses each had their share of winning seasons?
> 

Megan:
I don't remember if it was explicitly stated, but it seemed to be at least implied that Gryffindor hadn't done well for at least the past few years. Since the story is from Harry's perspective, that was really the relevant part. 

> 3.  Why were Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff rooting for Gryffindor?
> 

Megan:
On many fronts it seems to be the case throughout the books that nice people of any background or house don't like Slytherin. 

> 4.  Lee Jordan's commentary earns him a warning for bias.  Other than the most blatant examples, do you think Lee Jordan's commentary was fair, or was it biased all through the game?
> 

Megan:
It seemed pretty biased, but I thought it was one of the funnier parts of the book, particularly because JKR has said she's not a sports fan, but it seemed to me to be a pretty good takeoff on some of the "unbiased" commentary you hear from announcers who are calling games of the school they went to or the team they played for. 

> 5.  In our world, imitation or correspondence can be considered "sympathetic magic."  During the Gryffindor/Slytherin match, three-quarters of the houses wear Gryffindor scarlet while one quarter of the houses wear Slytherin green.  Do you think there is a similar folk belief in sympathetic magic in the Potterverse?  If so, could the wearing of the team colors have helped Gryffindor win?
> 

Megan:
Wow, that's a little above my pay grade, but I think there's definitely an energy that athletes get from playing in front of a "home crowd" - team colors are definitely a part of that, since they're easy to see during the action from the field. It can also be a way to intimidate opponents - it's quite daunting to go out in front of a sea of the other team's color. I'm sure all of that is true in the Potterverse just as much as here. 


Thanks for the great questions!







From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  9 11:57:58 2011
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:57:58 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 15: The Quidditch Final
In-Reply-To: <il6mqv+u11q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il7q06+1kqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190175



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at ...> wrote:

> 1.  Hermione misses Charms and is found asleep over her Arithmancy book.  Later, she is described as having bags under her eyes like Lupin.  Did you think she was just overdoing it, as Harry suggests, or did you think magic was involved?
> 

Annemehr:

I think, since the use of a time-turner can be dangerous, that Hermione was told to use it *only* to go to simultaneous classes, and that she followed that rule to the letter.  That would mean she wouldn't use it to get all that extra homework done, so not only was she living through days with a few extra hours, but all the homework would have cut into her normal sleep time.

I'd bet if she'd asked to use it to get a nap every day, permission would have been granted, but she didn't.

I figure that's the only magic that was involved.

Annemehr





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar  9 17:57:46 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 17:57:46 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 15: The Quidditch Final
In-Reply-To: <il6mqv+u11q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <il8f2q+n03q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190176


> 
> 1.  Hermione misses Charms and is found asleep over her Arithmancy book.  Later, she is described as having bags under her eyes like Lupin.  Did you think she was just overdoing it, as Harry suggests, or did you think magic was involved?

Pippin:
I was sure there was some magical explanation for the mystery of her class schedule, but I had no idea what it was. As we find out, she'd been instructed only to use the time turner to get to classes, and she seems to have interpreted that instruction strictly -- no extra naps or extra time to do her homework. I don't know whether they would have allowed her that if she had asked. 

Hermione thinks of the time turner as a special favor to her, but from the board's point of view it might be a way to charge extra tuition without having to pay the teachers extra, as they might if she was doing an independent study or getting tutoring after hours. 

> 
> 2.  Which house has been winning the Quidditch cup?  Do you think it was one house more than any other or that the other three houses each had their share of winning seasons?

Pippin:
I suspect it was Slytherin, since they are more competitive than Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff.

> 
> 3.  Why were Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff rooting for Gryffindor?
> 
Pippin:
Because the Slyths were going to be insufferable if they won. As a House, they exhibit a classic superiority complex, constantly having to assert that they are better than everyone else because, deep down, they fear they are not. 

> 4.  Lee Jordan's commentary earns him a warning for bias.  Other than the most blatant examples, do you think Lee Jordan's commentary was fair, or was it biased all through the game?

Pippin:
Bias isn't something you can take off and put on like a pair of shoes, IMO. I don't think Lee believes it's important to be fair to the Slytherins. But he knows that McGonagall does, and he wants to keep his job as commentator, so he has to watch what he says. But he loses control and goes too far. Not so different from Snape and the M-word. 

> 
> 5.  In our world, imitation or correspondence can be considered "sympathetic magic."  During the Gryffindor/Slytherin match, three-quarters of the houses wear Gryffindor scarlet while one quarter of the houses wear Slytherin green.  Do you think there is a similar folk belief in sympathetic magic in the Potterverse?  If so, could the wearing of the team colors have helped Gryffindor win?
> 

Pippin:
Some Potterverse magic seems to work on that theory. The time turner is a good example. But lots of other magic doesn't work that way at all. Unicorn blood doesn't make you pure or innocent, it keeps you from dying, which it certainly didn't do for the poor unicorn.

Dressing up as  dementors didn't give Draco and his friends a dementor's powers, and no one seemed to have any idea that it would summon real dementors to the scene. Nor do bearing the Dark Mark and wearing Death Eater robes make Snape into a loyal Death Eater, nor is there any fear of that.

Pippin




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 12 01:14:39 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 01:14:39 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 15: The Quidditch Final
In-Reply-To: <il6mqv+u11q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ilehdv+n6rb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190177


>

> 1.  Hermione misses Charms and is found asleep over her Arithmancy book.  Later, she is described as having bags under her eyes like Lupin.  Did you think she was just overdoing it, as Harry suggests, or did you think magic was involved?
Potioncat:
I thought (and think) she was overdoing it. But I knew something more than just work was going on. Trouble is, the first reads of the books were usually done at breakneck speed?eager to beat any spoilers and unable to stop to think about what was going on because these books are jinxed and you can't put them done once you open them.

> 
> 2.  Which house has been winning the Quidditch cup?  Do you think it was one house more than any other or that the other three houses each had their share of winning seasons?
Potioncat:
I thought it was Slytherin, but now that I think about it, Slytherin held the House Cup for seven years. Or do I have that wrong too? Oy, I'm starting to feel like Professor Binns.  I did think Slytherin had won the cup since Gryffindor lost it 6 years ago. But Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are shown as competitive teams?not push overs?so it wouldn't really make sense for only Gryffindor and Slytherin to ever win the cup. I would like to think it was won by each of them over the past 6?7 years.

> 
> 3.  Why were Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff rooting for Gryffindor?
Potioncat:
Because Slytherin was the team to beat. I don't think it had anything to do with Slytherin House per se. Just that the other Houses to win by Slytherin losing. (a chance at the House Cup, maybe?)
> 

> 4.  Lee Jordan's commentary earns him a warning for bias.  Other than the most blatant examples, do you think Lee Jordan's commentary was fair, or was it biased all through the game?
Potioncat:
I don't suppose it was any more biased than Michael Smith's.---good thing for Lee, he never upset  anyone like Ginny.
> 


> 5.  In our world, imitation or correspondence can be considered "sympathetic magic."  During the Gryffindor/Slytherin match, three-quarters of the houses wear Gryffindor scarlet while one quarter of the houses wear Slytherin green.  Do you think there is a similar folk belief in sympathetic magic in the Potterverse?  If so, could the wearing of the team colors have helped Gryffindor win?

Potioncat:
I'm sure it did?though not by magic. Yet---it's the only time we see Snape in anything other than black.  
 
> 6.  Add your own question here.
So?does Snape always wear black, or is it that he is always seen in his teacher's robes? 

Thanks, Ceridwin for a great discussion.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Mar 12 17:56:29 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 12 Mar 2011 17:56:29 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/13/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1299952589.11.29219.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190178

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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Weekly Chat
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 13 16:56:11 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Mar 2011 16:56:11 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/13/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1300035371.527.91262.m11@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190179

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday March 13, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

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12 noon Mountain US
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2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



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From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 16 05:50:37 2011
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 05:50:37 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 15: The Quidditch Final
In-Reply-To: <ilehdv+n6rb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ilpj3d+lgsv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190180

> > 4.  Lee Jordan's commentary earns him a warning for bias.  Other than the most blatant examples, do you think Lee Jordan's commentary was fair, or was it biased all through the game?
> Potioncat:
> I don't suppose it was any more biased than Michael Smith's.---good thing for Lee, he never upset  anyone like Ginny.

Joey:

It wasn't more biased than Smith's, yes. Yet I do think Lee should have set a good example. After listening to Lee, I think people of other teams took it for granted that you could say whatever you want as a commentator and still get away with it even with Professor McGonagall standing nearby!

Yet the same Lee sounded much better while at Potterwatch.




From cassandra.wladyslava at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 02:41:50 2011
From: cassandra.wladyslava at gmail.com (Cassandra Wladyslava)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:41:50 -0400
Subject: [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=gS1UbH3hpo9bWmfswnr_oJ=p-4eHLy3AJnFO+@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190181

First off, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. In fact, I'd be
surprised if it hasn't been.

I was just listening to HBP (The Stephen Fry Ver.). Voldemort modified
Morphin's memory to make him think he had killed the Riddles and Hokey the
House Elf to make her think she had killed Hephzibah Smith, but didn't
modify Hagrid's memory to make him think he had set Aragog on the
muggle-borns/opened the chamber of secrets.

Any thoughts as to why?

~Cassie~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean56 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 03:53:36 2011
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:53:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=gS1UbH3hpo9bWmfswnr_oJ=p-4eHLy3AJnFO+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=gS1UbH3hpo9bWmfswnr_oJ=p-4eHLy3AJnFO+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Ai8mJUFRW92T9wJMaP7D3w19n01Agczg-MD6s@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190182

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Cassandra Wladyslava
<cassandra.wladyslava at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> First off, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. In fact, I'd be
> surprised if it hasn't been.
>
> I was just listening to HBP (The Stephen Fry Ver.). Voldemort modified
> Morphin's memory to make him think he had killed the Riddles and Hokey the
> House Elf to make her think she had killed Hephzibah Smith, but didn't
> modify Hagrid's memory to make him think he had set Aragog on the
> muggle-borns/opened the chamber of secrets.
>
> Any thoughts as to why?

Maybe as a half-giant, Hagrid is resistant to some types of spells.

Maybe Riddle figured he couldn't get away with it at Hogwarts; one or
more of the professors would notice.

A couple of guesses just off the top of my head...


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 17 15:46:28 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:46:28 -0000
Subject: [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=gS1UbH3hpo9bWmfswnr_oJ=p-4eHLy3AJnFO+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iltack+fs50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190183

Cassie:
> I was just listening to HBP (The Stephen Fry Ver.). Voldemort modified
> Morphin's memory to make him think he had killed the Riddles and Hokey the
> House Elf to make her think she had killed Hephzibah Smith, but didn't
> modify Hagrid's memory to make him think he had set Aragog on the
> muggle-borns/opened the chamber of secrets.
> 
> Any thoughts as to why?
>

Pippin:
There were multiple attacks, not just the one that killed Myrtle. That would require more extensive memory modification than was done on Morfin or the House Elf, and as we know, there's a limit to how much can be done without creating obvious damage. And while Riddle did want the knowledge of how to open the Chamber preserved, he didn't want it revealed to everyone. He wouldn't want that knowledge implanted in Hagrid and exposed to questioning.

Also, there was a possibility that if Hagrid thought Aragog was guilty, he would turn him in, and it would be immediately obvious to everyone, especially Myrtle, that this was not the creature with great big yellow eyes which attacked her.

Pippin




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Mar 17 16:38:03 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:38:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Ai8mJUFRW92T9wJMaP7D3w19n01Agczg-MD6s@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=gS1UbH3hpo9bWmfswnr_oJ=p-4eHLy3AJnFO+@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=Ai8mJUFRW92T9wJMaP7D3w19n01Agczg-MD6s@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D8238EB.9030406@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190184

Cassandra Wladyslava:
>> First off, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. In fact, I'd be
>> surprised if it hasn't been.
>>
>> I was just listening to HBP (The Stephen Fry Ver.). Voldemort modified
>> Morphin's memory to make him think he had killed the Riddles and Hokey the
>> House Elf to make her think she had killed Hephzibah Smith, but didn't
>> modify Hagrid's memory to make him think he had set Aragog on the
>> muggle-borns/opened the chamber of secrets.
>>
>> Any thoughts as to why?
Margaret Dean:
> Maybe as a half-giant, Hagrid is resistant to some types of spells.
>
> Maybe Riddle figured he couldn't get away with it at Hogwarts; one or
> more of the professors would notice.
>
> A couple of guesses just off the top of my head...

Bart:
     How about Riddle was younger, and not as skilled a wizard at the time?

     Bart



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 17 17:26:48 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:26:48 -0000
Subject: [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <4D8238EB.9030406@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <iltg8o+860k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190185

Bart wrote:
>      How about Riddle was younger, and not as skilled a wizard at the time?
> 
Carol responds:

I thought about that, too, but it can't be right. The attack on Myrtle occurs near the end of Tom's fifth year and the murder of his parents (when he alters Morfin's memory) the following summer, perhaps no more than a few weeks later.

Setting aside the fact that JKR needed Hagrid as a character throughout the series, so, for plot reasons, she couldn't have his memory wiped, I'll tentatively go with Tom fearing that he would get caught if he tried such a trick at Hogwarts, whereas he was sure that he could get away with it in Morfin's case. (Morfin clearly lived alone, for one thing.) Also, Tom's action in murdering his father wasn't part of his initial plan. It--and the inspiration to alter Morfin's memory and pin the blame on him--occurred quite suddenly when Morfin revealed more information than was good for him.

I suspect that Tom (who could create a Horcrux and did so soon afterward) was quite capable of modifying Hagrid's memory but figured that he could easily trick the "oaf" into thinking that Aragog was guilty without any memory modification being needed. As for Hagrid's being half-giant, I don't think Tom knew that, and if he had known, I doubt that it would have deterred him, giants being both stupid and, in his view, inferior beings incapable of resisting his powerful magic.

Carol, glad that someone has come up with a question we haven't discussed before (to my recollection)





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 17 19:10:54 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:10:54 -0000
Subject: [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <iltack+fs50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iltmbu+h4sm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190186



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> Cassie:
> > I was just listening to HBP ....). Voldemort modified
> > Morphin's memory ... and Hokey the House Elf..., but didn't
> > modify Hagrid's memory ...
> > 
> > Any thoughts as to why?
> >
> 
> Pippin:
> There were multiple attacks, not just the one that killed Myrtle. That would require more extensive memory modification ...
> 
> Also, ... if Hagrid thought Aragog was guilty, he would turn him in, and it would be immediately obvious to everyone, ...(it had not) attacked her.
> 
> Pippin
>

Steve:

Let's also examine Riddle's motives. In the case of the murder of his parents, and the framing of Morphin, he wanted to hide his hand in it and make sure the connection to him was never recognized, no matter how small or slight that recognition might have been.

However, in Hagrid's case, he simply needed a scapegoat. His goal was to stop the closing of Hogwarts. As long as that goal was achieved, he was happy. 

Further, as we HAVE discussed before, the case against Hagrid and Aragog was as thin and flimsy as tissue paper. Anyone who wanted to could have seen through that story in a second, but they didn't want to see through it, because they to wanted a politically expedient scapegoat, and Riddle provided them with just that.

They simply need an excuse to close the book and put it all behind them. I suspect Riddle understood these political motivations and knew that if he gave them any excuse, no matter how fimsy, to close the book, that book would snap shut like a steel trap. 

So, in the case of the murders of he want no trace however small of his involvement, so he had to be far more clever is his cover up. Further, he framed people with a high likelihood of being accepted as guilty. Morphin was a notorious muggle hater, and had attacked muggles before. Not hard to believe him guilty. As to Hokey, he/she was an elf, who are always given short shift by wizards. Again, another politically expedient solution to an embarrassing case for the Ministry.  

In all case, Riddle depends on the bureaucracy to want and need a quick and easy solution. But in the case of the two murders, he desperately wanted to hide his involvement. However, in Hagrid's case, Tom's involvement was clear. He received a Special Services award for turning Hagrid in. Once the presents of Aragog became known, the 'establishment' has the solution it needed to restore and protect its reputation. 

Again, as we have discussed before, the whole Aragog story was as full of holes as a colander, but no one wanted to see that. They had a perfect excuse to sweep everything under the rug, and they took it, as Riddle knew they would. But, there was no need for Riddle to hide himself, just the opposite, he made himself the hero in this little story.

Steve/bboyminn  




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Thu Mar 17 20:10:24 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:10:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <4D8238EB.9030406@moosewise.com>
References: <AANLkTi=gS1UbH3hpo9bWmfswnr_oJ=p-4eHLy3AJnFO+@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=Ai8mJUFRW92T9wJMaP7D3w19n01Agczg-MD6s@mail.gmail.com> <4D8238EB.9030406@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <4D826AB0.9060704@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190187


>>> First off, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. In fact, I'd be
>>> surprised if it hasn't been.
>>>
>>> I was just listening to HBP (The Stephen Fry Ver.). Voldemort modified
>>> Morphin's memory to make him think he had killed the Riddles and Hokey the
>>> House Elf to make her think she had killed Hephzibah Smith, but didn't
>>> modify Hagrid's memory to make him think he had set Aragog on the
>>> muggle-borns/opened the chamber of secrets.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts as to why?
> Bart:
>       How about Riddle was younger, and not as skilled a wizard at the time?
>
>       Bart
Shelley now:
That was my thought is it had nothing to do with "skill", as much as 
"need". The "Hagrid" incident was the first of the three- and Riddle 
hadn't yet thought of modifying someone's memory. It's a step he takes 
with the later murders in "refining" his crimes to cover his tracks. In 
the Hagrid incident, he had his position as "trusted individual" over 
Hagrid who had a "prohibited pet" to blame, thus his tracks were covered 
and all suspicion averted from him. (He didn't kill Mertyl directly, the 
snake did, and do there was no direct connection to him.) With the later 
murders, Riddle was much more involved and thus he had to be much more 
careful so they couldn't be tracked back to him, which is why I think he 
researched the Memory Modification.

Shelley



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Mar 18 00:28:23 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 00:28:23 -0000
Subject: [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=gS1UbH3hpo9bWmfswnr_oJ=p-4eHLy3AJnFO+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ilu8v7+rr09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190188

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cassandra Wladyslava <cassandra.wladyslava at ...> wrote:
>
> First off, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. In fact, I'd be
> surprised if it hasn't been.
> 
> I was just listening to HBP (The Stephen Fry Ver.). Voldemort modified
> Morphin's memory to make him think he had killed the Riddles and Hokey the
> House Elf to make her think she had killed Hephzibah Smith, but didn't
> modify Hagrid's memory to make him think he had set Aragog on the
> muggle-borns/opened the chamber of secrets.
> 
> Any thoughts as to why?

Geoff:
I've gone back to Cassandra's original post to bypass the various views put 
forward, not because I'm ignoring them but because the post is getting a bit 
unwieldy.

My own personal interpretation of this is that Riddle didn't modify Hagrid's 
memory because he just didn't want to and he could get much more 
satisfaction and sense of power by leaving him as a misused and helpless 
victim.

If you look at real world dictators, they want (or wanted) to have power and 
many of them wanted to express that power in differing ways: to eliminate 
opponents by killing them; by often torturing and humiliating them before 
killing them; by removing their source of power but leaving them alive so 
that they are always reminded of what they have lost and of flaunting their 
power over those who have fallen from grace and also by ensuring that anyone 
raising opposition or threatening to become a rival is removed in such a way 
as to make others think twice about similar action.

Some of Hitler's actions spring to mind in the list I have made. After the failure 
of the Stauffenberg bomb plot in 1944, many of those put on trial had their 
belts and braces taken away so that while standing, they had the minor 
humiliation of having to hold their trousers up. He was ruthless in removing 
colleagues like Ernst Roehm, whom he felt offered a challenge to his leadership. 
There were leaders who were rulers only in name and were kept as mere puppets; 
and so the list goes on.

Riddle was like this. He did not just want power; he wanted it to be seen; to flaunt 
it. We see this in his treatment of Hagrid.

It is interesting the way in which JKR reveals what went on. The first hint comes in 
PS:
'He (Hagrid) cast a sideways look at Harry under his bushy eyebrows.
"Be grateful if yeh didn't mention that ter anyone at Hogwarts," he said. "I'm - er - 
not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'. I was allowed ter do a bit ter follow 
yeh an' get yer letters to yeh an' stuff - one o' the reasons  I was so keen ter take 
on the job -"
"Why weren't you supposed to do magic?" asked Harry.
"Oh, well- I was at Hogwarts meself but I -er -got expelled ter tell you the truth. 
In me third year. They snapped me wand in half an' everything"'
(PS "The Keeper of the Keys" p. 48 UK edition)

So from the start, we know that Hagrid has a secret. Ollivander again refers to this 
in the visit to Diagon Alley and seems to suspect that Hagrid is keeping something 
from him - we already know that Hagrid's umbrella is unusual.

Now in COS, we see two faces of Tom Riddle. We see him with Armando Dippet 
playing to the Headmaster's sympathy with his request not to return to the 
Orphanage during the holidays and his subtle comment; 
'"Sir - if the person was caught... If it all stopped... "
"What do you mean?" said Dippet....
...Riddle, do you mean you know something about these attacks?"
"No, sir," said Riddle quickly.
But Harry was sure it was the same sort of 'no' that he himself had given 
Dumbledore.'
(COS "The Very Secret Diary" p.184 UK edition)

And then, after the brief meeting with Dumbledore, the different, power wielding, 
bullying manipulative forerunner of Voldemort emerging in his treatment of 
Hagrid.

We know that he engineered the expulsion of Hagrid whom he despised and 
looked down on, vide his comment in the Chamber: 
'"So I decided to show you my famous capture of that great oaf, Hagrid, to gain 
your trust"
"Hagrid's my friend," said Harry, hie voice now shaking. "And you framed him, 
didn't you? I thought you made a mistake, but -"
Riddle laughed his high laugh again.
"It was my word against Hagrid's, Harry. well, you can imagine how it looked to 
old Armando Dippet. On the one hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless 
but so brave, school Prefect, model student; on the other hand, big, blundering 
Hagrid, in trouble every other week...."'
(COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p. 229/30 UK edition)

This was one way in which Riddle used and reinforced his power.

And then:
'"Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore , seemed to think that Hagrid 
was innocent...
...Yes, I think that Dumbledore might have guessed. Dumbledore never seemed 
to like me as much as the other teachers did..."'
(ibid. p.230)

Riddle used his power of twisting the truth and manipulation to get his own 
ends and Hagrid was bustled out with no chance to try to disprove the 
accusation. Dumbledore, I suspect, did not carry enough clout to help, other 
than  getting Hagrid kept on in a non-academic position. This smacks to me 
much of the "Sirius" affair when he was bundled off to Azkaban with no formal 
hearing after Peter Pettirgrew framed him.

This is what Riddle wanted. He didn't want Hagrid to believe he had done this; 
he wanted the guy to know that he had been the subject of Riddle's power and 
left high and dry. It was an early example of the future Voldemort's wish to 
show off and demonstrate his ability to control events and reveal what he could 
do. A  later classic case of this, which backfired spectacularly on him, was in the 
graveyard at LIttle Hangleton (in GOF)bwhen Voldemort, in one of those asinine 
moments which also afflict real world dictators, decided that a demonstration 
of his power over Harry would be not just to kill Harry while he was tied to the 
tomb but set up a duel to prove to his followers that he was invincible and that 
even his supposed nemesis was no match for the great power that he wielded.

And how the wheels came of that!

No. I believe that the way he treated Hagrid was calculated to show to his peers 
and, as we see later in HBP, his Professors, just what he is prepared to do to 
gain power over everyone and everything - including death itself. 

Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad" 
Euripides
















From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 18 19:50:12 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:50:12 -0000
Subject: [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <ilu8v7+rr09@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <im0d1k+louk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190189



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:

> 
> Geoff:
> ...
> 
> My own personal interpretation of this is that Riddle didn't 
> modify Hagrid's memory because he just didn't want to and he 
> could get much more satisfaction and sense of power by leaving
> him as a misused and helpless victim.
> 
> ...
> ...
> 
> Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad" 
> Euripides
>

Steve:

While still hold that I was right as far as I took it, I think
you have hit on a very important detail. It is not enough that
Riddle has power and sway over others, he has to humiliate 
them too. We see this countless times through out the series.

He couldn't just kill Harry and move on, NO, he had to prove a
point, he had to humiliate him. And even when, near the end, he
thought he had killed Harry, he still had to gloat, he still 
had to humiliate Harry. 

It is a small man, and a poor Evil Overlord, who can only raise
himself up by pushing others down. 

Apparently, Voldemort has never read the Evil Overlord's Handbook -

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

"6.) I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them."

Steve/bluewizard









From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 19 13:34:54 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:34:54 -0000
Subject: Did Lucius know? was Re: [HBP] Why didn't Voldemort Modify Hagrid's Memory?
In-Reply-To: <ilu8v7+rr09@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <im2bdu+56da@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190190


Geoff:
> 
> We know that he engineered the expulsion of Hagrid whom he despised and 
> looked down on, vide his comment in the Chamber: 
> '"So I decided to show you my famous capture of that great oaf, Hagrid, to gain 
> your trust"
> "Hagrid's my friend," said Harry, hie voice now shaking. "And you framed him, 
> didn't you? I thought you made a mistake, but -"
> Riddle laughed his high laugh again.
> "It was my word against Hagrid's, Harry. well, you can imagine how it looked to 
> old Armando Dippet. On the one hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless 
> but so brave, school Prefect, model student; on the other hand, big, blundering 
> Hagrid, in trouble every other week...."'
> (COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p. 229/30 UK edition)
> 
> This was one way in which Riddle used and reinforced his power.
> 

Pippin:
Did Lucius know that Hagrid had not been involved at all in opening the Chamber? Or did he think that Hagrid had been an earlier victim of the Diary? It would explain why he expected Ginny to be discovered and  expelled in disgrace, just as Hagrid had been. 

Pippin




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Mar 19 17:55:54 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Mar 2011 17:55:54 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/20/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1300557354.556.90650.m14@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190191

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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 20 16:55:33 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Mar 2011 16:55:33 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/20/2011, 1:00 pm 
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Mar 26 17:55:56 2011
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Date: 26 Mar 2011 17:55:56 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/27/2011, 1:00 pm 
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 27 16:56:04 2011
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Date: 27 Mar 2011 16:56:04 -0000
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From coriolan at att.net  Mon Mar 28 03:25:19 2011
From: coriolan at att.net (Caius)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:25:19 -0000
Subject: FILK: Snake, Riddle and 'Roy
Message-ID: <imov2v+v4aq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190195

Just like the olden days, I present a new HP filk (I used to do this every few days instead of every few years)

Snake, Riddle and `Roy

To the tune of Shake, Rattle and Roll by Bill Haley and the Comets

Dedicated to the great and glorious Pippin

THE SCENE: HARRY sings of three of his Year Two antagonists

HARRY: 
Way down in the chamber Tom Riddle would Potter damn
Way down in the chamber Tom Riddle would Potter damn
And Gilderoy will show he's a total sham

[Chorus]

I said Snake, Riddle and `Roy
I said Snake, Riddle and `Roy
I said Snake, Riddle and `Roy
I said Snake, Riddle and `Roy
Well, them three are all nutters who would my life destroy

(To 'Roy Lockhart)

Wearin' your outfit in forget-me-not blue
Wearin' your outfit in forget-me-not blue
You think you're cool, you're a hot mess through and through 

[Chorus]

(To the basilisk)

You were a two-eyed snake, till you met the Phoenix Fawkes
You were a two-eyed snake, till you met the Phoenix Fawkes 
Now I look at you, tell you don't know to walk the walk

To Tom Riddle (as he prepares the plunge the basilisk fang into the diary)

You believe you're coming on strong as You-Know-Who
You believe you're coming on strong as You-Know-Who
The time has come for us to say "toodle-loo."

[Chorus]
I said Snake, Riddle and `Roy
I said Snake, Riddle and `Roy
I said Snake, Riddle and `Roy
I said Snake, Riddle and `Roy
Well, them three are all nutters who would my life destroy!

     -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS
http://www.harrypotterfilks.com





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 30 03:45:22 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 03:45:22 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 16: Professor Trelawney's prediction
Message-ID: <imu90i+rfll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190196

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PoA Chapter 16: Professor Trelawney's Prediction:

Summary

Although the weather is warm, students are inside studying for various exams.
Percy is very tense as he prepares for N.E.W.T.S. and even the twins are working
on their O.W.L.S. Hermione's schedule is full with two different times having
two tests listed. Buckbeak's appeal date has been announced, but the executioner
will be attending with the officials. The Trio thinks Malfoy has already
determined the verdict.



Third year exams are very hands on?transfiguring tortoises into teapots, casting
cheering charms on each other, navigating a DADA obstacle course. Ron and Harry
decide to "make up stuff" when viewing the crystal ball. Harry "sees" a
hippogriff and Trelawney asks if he sees such details as a missing head, or
blood, or a weeping Hagrid. Then she becomes rigid and delivers a prediction.



"It will happen tonight. The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by
his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before
midnight
the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark
Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever
he was. Tonight
before midnight
the servant 
will set out
to rejoin
his
master."



Trelawney denies ever making a prediction about the Dark Lord. When Harry goes
to the common room to tell Ron and Hermione, he learns Buckbeak has been
sentenced to death. Hermione retrieves the Invisibility Cloak so they can visit
Hagrid. While there, Hermione discovers Scabbers. The Trio leaves just as the
men from the ministry arrive. Scabbers is squealing and struggling against Ron's
restraint, but even so, they can hear the sound of the ax fall.



Questions:

1. Hermione finally faces a Boggart?and it turns into McGonagall telling her she
failed. What does this bit of comic relief tell us about the character?



2. JKR's description of the exams makes for a very amusing read. Which joke most
tickled your funny bone?



3. Using everything you know about Trelawney, and especially the events of this
chapter?what makes her tick? What kind of character was JKR writing?



4. OK, everyone thought this prediction was about Sirius Black the first time
they read it. (If you didn't, why not?) So, now that we know the future?how
true or accurate is this prediction? What does "chained these twelve years"
mean?



5. Trelawney's first prediction was set in motion by Snape blabbing to LV. What
set this one in motion? Will Harry do anything because of or in spite of hearing
her words?



6. How does the prediction set the reader up, or set the mood? Would the events
(both in the book and the series) seem different if the reader had not been
exposed to the prediction?



7. Did the sudden switch to Hagrid's problems distract the reader (or Harry)
from the prediction?



8. The Trio hears the ax fall, and Hermione says, "They did it." Did Buckbeak
lose his head?or was the Trio already there?



9. Do you have any questions?


Potioncat



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From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 30 17:48:46 2011
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:48:46 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 16: Professor Trelawney's prediction
In-Reply-To: <imu90i+rfll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <imvqdu+ilbk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190197

<snip of wonderful summary>

> Questions:
>
> 1. Hermione finally faces a Boggart?and it turns into McGonagall
> telling her she failed. What does this bit of comic relief tell
> us about the character?

Megan:
Her fear of academic failure is such a recurring theme through the
series that I thought it was really funny that it was literally
represented here.

> 2. JKR's description of the exams makes for a very amusing read.
> Which joke most tickled your funny bone?

Megan:
See above. And for some reason, it was funny to me that they were all
disinterestedly regurgitating their history lectures on their exams
just like muggle kids, in contrast to all the other exotic and
exciting classes.

> 3. Using everything you know about Trelawney, and especially the
> events of this chapter?what makes her tick? What kind of character
> was JKR writing?

Megan:
I picture her as someone who has kind of built her own little world
in her mind and that's where she lives. It's always kind of jarring
to her when the other world intrudes.

> 4. OK, everyone thought this prediction was about Sirius Black the
> first time they read it. (If you didn't, why not?) So, now that we
> know the future?how true or accurate is this prediction? What does
> "chained these twelve years" mean?

Megan:
Yep, at the time I thought it was Sirius, and I never really thought
back to that part again. Maybe it was Wormtail? He was kind of
trapped as Scabbers since he'd blow his cover if he changed back.

> 5. Trelawney's first prediction was set in motion by Snape blabbing
> to LV. What set this one in motion? Will Harry do anything because
> of or in spite of hearing her words?

Megan:
I thought it was just the general tense environment that prompted
this one - even she seems aware that something is in the air.

> 6. How does the prediction set the reader up, or set the mood?
> Would the events (both in the book and the series) seem different
> if the reader had not been exposed to the prediction?

Megan:
I thought it helped to increase the suspense and tension, and it
definitely was something that kept coming to mind as the series went
on.

> 7. Did the sudden switch to Hagrid's problems distract the reader
> (or Harry) from the prediction?

Megan:
I know it distracted me, and it seemed to at least temporarily
distract Harry.

> 8. The Trio hears the ax fall, and Hermione says, "They did it."
> Did Buckbeak lose his head?or was the Trio already there?

Megan:
I think they were already there.