From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 03:06:28 2012 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 03:06:28 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fourteen, Goblet of Fire: The Unforgivable Curses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192199 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in-boxes, to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic, or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com Chapter 14 The Unforgivable Curses The chapter opens with Ron and Harry discussing how Snape seems afraid of Mad Eye Moody. Ron imagines seeing Moody change Snape into a horned toad and bounce him around the dungeon. Harry's whole DADA class has heard exciting things about Moody and they all queue up early at the classroom, except for Hermione who had been in the library. The first class is Moody showing them the Unforgivable Curses, demonstrated on spiders. Everyone laughs at the spider doing gymnastics under Imperius. But they sober up when Moody asks if they'd like it if he did it to them. He demonstrates Cruciatus but Hermione makes him stop when she sees Neville's reaction. Finally Moody does Avada Kedavra. He explains how there's no defence, no countercurse. Only one person has ever survived it - Harry. But Harry is not thinking about his survival, but about his parents' deaths. Moody advises CONSTANT VIGILANCE. After class, Hermione notices that Neville is still very badly shaken. She begins trying to comfort him, but Moody comes up and takes Neville to his office for "a cup of tea." After dinner, Ron and Harry see that Neville is feeling much better and is reading a book Moody lent him: "Magical Mediterranean Water-Plants and Their Properties." They fetch their Divination stuff and try to do their assignment. As usual, they can make neither heads nor tails of it, so they fall back on the old Divination standby and make it up. While doing this homework, Harry notices Fred and George off to themselves, working on what seems to be an important sheet of parchment. Hermione finally returns from the library, and announces the inauguration of S.P.E.W. While Ron and Harry are trying to decide how to react, Hedwig shows up. She has a letter from Sirius, which says that he's flying north immediately, that Harry should go straight to Dumbledore if his scar hurts again, and that Dumbledore is "reading the signs." Questions: 1. In the beginning of class, Crouch!Moody says he'll only be staying for a year. We know why Barty Crouch, Jr had no intention of staying any longer. But do you think this was originally agreed upon between the real Moody and DD, and did that have anything to do with the DADA curse? 2. Do you think Crouch!Moody* left the Cruciatus on the second spider too long? Do you remember the impression it made on you on your first reading, if any? 3. Having seen Crouch!Moody demonstrate the Unforgivables in Harry's class, what do you think of the Ministry's policy of not showing dark curses to students until they're in sixth year, and about DD ignoring that? 4. Harry didn't seem to make anything of Neville's distress after seeing the Cruciatus curse. Given his own feelings about Avada Kedavra, do you think he should have been more perceptive about Neville, or did he have too much to think about on his own account? 5. Some readers have seen truth in Harry and Ron's made-up homework predictions. What do you think? Here's the list: Monday: Ron -cough; Harry - burns Tuesday: Ron - lose a treasured possession (H's idea); Harry - stabbed in back by a friend (R's idea) Wednesday: Ron - lose a fight; Harry - lose a bet (was going to have a fight, but R said it first) Later on: Ron - changes a second drowning to being trampled by a Hippogriff; Harry - death by decapitation. 6. What do you think of the name S.P.E.W. and Hermione sticking with it after Harry's and Ron's immediate reactions? 7. Sirius says DD has been reading the signs. What are they? How many can we list? Please add any other questions you can think of! Annemehr *"Crouch!Moody" is an old HPfGU shorthand that indicates "Crouch Jr disguised as Moody". We also have Vapor!Mort for LV when he was "less than the meanest ghost" and Baby!Mort for the ugly baby stage he was in when Wormtail brought him back to England. NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 If you would like to volunteer to lead a chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From bart at moosewise.com Sun Aug 19 13:41:14 2012 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:41:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fourteen, Goblet of Fire: The Unforgivable Curses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5030ECFA.3070800@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192200 On 8/18/2012 11:06 PM, annemehr wrote: > 6. What do you think of the name S.P.E.W. and Hermione sticking with it after > Harry's and Ron's immediate reactions? > Bart: One thing of interest: radical activists frequently do not have a sense of humor (or work hard not to; back in the Yippie era, some of the leaders like Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin went to see Marx Brothers movies so they could practice not laughing, often accompanied by self-styled troubadour Phil Ochs who had a grand old time trying to get them to laugh). I believe that this is what JKR was making fun of with S.P.E.W.; that Hermione refuses to see the irony. I have seen this sort of thing happen in real life, but being too specific would bring up off topic political argument. So, to be sufficiently vague, a few years back a protestor was accidentally crushed to death in an accident during a protest. A large and widely publicized fundraiser was later held in that protestor's honor: a pancake breakfast. And they weren't kidding. Bart From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue Aug 21 23:13:32 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:13:32 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fourteen, Goblet of Fire: The Unforgivable Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Chapter 14 > > The Unforgivable Curses > Questions: > 1. In the beginning of class, Crouch!Moody says he'll only be staying for a > year. We know why Barty Crouch, Jr had no intention of staying any longer. But > do you think this was originally agreed upon between the real Moody and DD, and > did that have anything to do with the DADA curse? Geoff: My feeling is that this is what was agreed between Dumbledore and Moody. Moody's remark "Yeah, I'm staying just the one year. Special favour to Dumbledore... one year and then back to my quiet retirement." (GOF "The Unforgivable Curses" p.187 UK edition), implies (with hindsight) that he must have found out what Moody was planning - Legilimency perhaps - and run with that. I think that Crouch was intending to play it by ear and seize opportunities as he went along and that, if a different chance to get Harry away to meet Voldemort came up before the Third Task, he wold have used it. The Third Task ultimately provided the best chance. > 2. Do you think Crouch!Moody* left the Cruciatus on the second spider too long? > Do you remember the impression it made on you on your first reading, if any? Geoff: It gave me an impression that Moody was a very hard man and possessed a streak of cruelty in rather enjoying what he was doing. > 3. Having seen Crouch!Moody demonstrate the Unforgivables in Harry's class, what > do you think of the Ministry's policy of not showing dark curses to students > until they're in sixth year, and about DD ignoring that? Geoff: I think that some reference would be useful but not in such a blatant way as here. > 4. Harry didn't seem to make anything of Neville's distress after seeing the > Cruciatus curse. Given his own feelings about Avada Kedavra, do you think he > should have been more perceptive about Neville, or did he have too much to think > about on his own account? Geoff: I think this is a thought in hindsight. At this point in the book, Harry does not know about the Longbottoms: 'Dumbledore gave Harry a very sharp look. "Has Neville never told you why he has been brought up by his grandmother?" he said. Harry shook his head, wondering as he did so, how he could have failed to ask Neville this, in almost four years of knowing him. "Yes, they were talking about Neville's parents," said Dumbledore. "His father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard." "So they're dead?" said Harry quietly. "No," said Dumbledore, his voice full of a bitterness Harry had never heard there before, "they are insane..."' (GOF "The Pensieve" p. 523 UK edition) > 6. What do you think of the name S.P.E.W. and Hermione sticking with it after > Harry's and Ron's immediate reactions? Geoff: She obviously recognises it as a word: "Not spew", said Hermione impatiently. "It's S-P-E-W..." (UK edition p.198) - but doesn't seem to register that people will see it in the way she does. She still doesn't see Ron's objection "And you think we want to walk around with badges saying 'spew', do you?" (p.198). Perhaps she fails to see how others look on a word like that. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 22 16:22:13 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:22:13 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fourteen, Goblet of Fire: The Unforgivable Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192202 > Questions: > > > 1. In the beginning of class, Crouch!Moody says he'll only be staying for a > year. We know why Barty Crouch, Jr had no intention of staying any longer. But > do you think this was originally agreed upon between the real Moody and DD, and > did that have anything to do with the DADA curse? Surely Moody would be able to detect the DADA curse, and of course Barty would know about it if Voldemort chose to tell him. > 2. Do you think Crouch!Moody* left the Cruciatus on the second spider too long? > Do you remember the impression it made on you on your first reading, if any? JKR has said that up until Crouch!Moody gave himself away by taking Harry off with him at the end, his impersonation of the real Moody was flawless, so I guess this is something the real Moody would have done. Aurors under Crouch Sr were authorized to use the unforgivable curses against Death Eaters. The demonstration was certainly too long for Neville (and for the spider), but it seems to have made the desired impression on the other students. > 3. Having seen Crouch!Moody demonstrate the Unforgivables in Harry's class, what > do you think of the Ministry's policy of not showing dark curses to students > until they're in sixth year, and about DD ignoring that? Pippin: I am sure that if Harry had been in sixth year when Voldemort had shown signs of returning to power, Dumbledore would not have felt any need to involve the fourth and fifth year students. > 4. Harry didn't seem to make anything of Neville's distress after seeing the > Cruciatus curse. Given his own feelings about Avada Kedavra, do you think he > should have been more perceptive about Neville, or did he have too much to think > about on his own account? Pippin: Harry was never terribly interested in Neville. > > > > > 6. What do you think of the name S.P.E.W. and Hermione sticking with it after > Harry's and Ron's immediate reactions? > Pippin: I think this was a tip of the hat to the ineptly initialed Anti-Slavery Society (or as it was formally known, the Society for the Mitigation and Gradual Abolition of Slavery Throughout the British Dominions) founded by William Wilberforce and Thomas Clarkson in 1823. I think Hermione was so dedicated to her cause that she simply refused to admit she'd picked a silly name for it. > 7. Sirius says DD has been reading the signs. What are they? How many can we > list? Sirius would know about The Death Eater riot at the World Cup and the conjuring of the Dark Mark. He doesn't appear to know about the dark marks borne by the DE's themselves, but Dumbledore does, and would be aware that Snape's was coming back. Readers do not learn until DH that the Death Eaters can use the Dark Marks to communicate with each other as well as with Voldemort, although this will be hinted at in GoF when Crouch!Moody causes Snape's dark mark to twinge. But that explains how Lucius could have summoned so many Death Eater to riot at the World Cup although he only knew the identities of the few in his cell. There is also the disappearance of Bertha Jorkins in Albania where Voldemort was rumored to be hiding, and the subsequent disappearance of the caretaker of the Riddle House. Thanks for the questions, Annemehr! Pippin From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sat Aug 25 06:42:45 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 06:42:45 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fourteen, Goblet of Fire: The Unforgivable Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Pippin: > I am sure that if Harry had been in sixth year when Voldemort had shown signs of returning to power, Dumbledore would not have felt any need to involve the fourth and fifth year students. > > 4. Harry didn't seem to make anything of Neville's distress after seeing the > > Cruciatus curse. Given his own feelings about Avada Kedavra, do you think he > > should have been more perceptive about Neville, or did he have too much to think > > about on his own account? Pippin: > Harry was never terribly interested in Neville. Geoff: I feel that that is a rather harsh interpretation. In any group of the type we see in Hogwarts, there are very close friends, others with whom we share some interaction and some with whom we have little connection other than being in the same class. I remember it being thus in my classes in my grammar school many moons ago.I had perhaps three very close mates, then others fell into the two groups detailed above. I think Neville probably falls into the middle group. There is certainly evidence that Harry looks out for Neville on more than one occasion prior to the one in Moody's class and he seems a little closer to Neville when he finds out about Neville's tragic background from Dumbledore late in this book. Just to give a handful of instances which occur to me: When the group are at their first Quidditch lesson and Neville falls off his broom, Harry takes issue with Malfoy over Neville's Rememberall and gets it back from him in the aerial chase which ensued. (PS "The Midnight Duel" pp.109/10 UK edition) When Neville comes back into the Common Room after Malfoy has cast a Leg-Locker Curse and he is released and seems down because he doesn't feel brave, Harry gives him a Chocolate Frog and tells him that he is worth twelve of Malfoy in an attempt to lift his spirits. (PS "Nicholas Flamel" pp.160/61 UK edition) When the Trio plus Malfoy and Neville are in the Forbidden Forest with Hagrid and red sparks go off, Hagrid goes to see what has happened, HArry expresses a view that he doesn't care if Malfoy has been hurt but is concerned about Neville because it is their fault he is in detention. (PS "The Forbidden Forest" p.186 UK edition) There are more instances, as I suggested, later in the books, later than the chapter we are considering. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Aug 26 22:04:29 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:04:29 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fourteen, Goblet of Fire: The Unforgivable Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin: > > I am sure that if Harry had been in sixth year when Voldemort had shown signs of returning to power, Dumbledore would not have felt any need to involve the fourth and fifth year students. > > > > 4. Harry didn't seem to make anything of Neville's distress after seeing the > > > Cruciatus curse. Given his own feelings about Avada Kedavra, do you think he > > > should have been more perceptive about Neville, or did he have too much to think > > > about on his own account? > > Pippin: > > Harry was never terribly interested in Neville. > > Geoff: > I feel that that is a rather harsh interpretation. In any group of the type > we see in Hogwarts, there are very close friends, others with whom we > share some interaction and some with whom we have little connection > other than being in the same class. > > I remember it being thus in my classes in my grammar school many > moons ago.I had perhaps three very close mates, then others fell into > the two groups detailed above. > > I think Neville probably falls into the middle group. There is certainly > evidence that Harry looks out for Neville on more than one occasion > prior to the one in Moody's class and he seems a little closer to Neville > when he finds out about Neville's tragic background from Dumbledore > late in this book. Just to give a handful of instances which occur to me: > > Pippin: Yes, Harry does notice when Neville is upset, and also when he feels better. Harry thinks, IIRC, that giving Neville the herbology book was something Lupin might have done. But Harry's interest doesn't extend to wondering why Neville reacted the way he did. Harry isn't curious about Neville's backstory (or anyone's, really.) It's convenient for JKR's plotting, but Harry has certainly absorbed from the Dursleys the idea that he shouldn't ask questions, especially about the past. Pippin From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue Aug 28 06:52:56 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 06:52:56 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fourteen, Goblet of Fire: The Unforgivable Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Pippin: > Yes, Harry does notice when Neville is upset, and also when he feels better. Harry thinks, IIRC, that giving Neville the herbology book was something Lupin might have done. But Harry's interest doesn't extend to wondering why Neville reacted the way he did. Harry isn't curious about Neville's backstory (or anyone's, really.) It's convenient for JKR's plotting, but Harry has certainly absorbed from the Dursleys the idea that he shouldn't ask questions, especially about the past. Geoff: I'm not sure that the "Dursley syndrome" is the main reason. I have said in the past that JKR has a surprisingly good handle on the teenage male mind. Expanding a little on remarks I made in an earlier post about my own experience, when I was at school in my teens. I had a small number of very close friends and yet, we would fairly rarely talk about families or siblings. In the case of once of my closest friends, I knew that he lived with his mother who worked full-time but never knew anything about his father; I never asked, he never volunteered information because it didn't impact on what we did or talked about together. A second friend also lived with his mother but she was always at home but I did gather that she had a pension and that his father had been killed in RAF service in WWII. Outside school, I had a different circle of friends and we would all meet up at weekends but again, our knowledge of each other's family background was sketchy. So I see Harry as being a fairly normal being, interacting with the others - in my view - as a fairly typical teenager. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Wed Aug 29 03:27:35 2012 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 03:27:35 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fourteen, Goblet of Fire: The Unforgivable Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > > > 1. In the beginning of class, Crouch!Moody says he'll only be staying for a > year. We know why Barty Crouch, Jr had no intention of staying any longer. But > do you think this was originally agreed upon between the real Moody and DD, and > did that have anything to do with the DADA curse? > Nikkalmati I suspect that LV's close friends knew about the curse or that DD explained to the real Moody that he would or could only stay one year, then Crouch Jr. extracted that information. (After all, Crouch had to use some method of gaining information from Moody. BTW why did Crouch arrive so late to the feast? He had plenty of time to get ready didn't he? Nikkalmati > > 2. Do you think Crouch!Moody* left the Cruciatus on the second spider too long? Nikkalmati We don't know how long he would have left it, because he stopped when Hermione objected. Yes, once the curse was demonstrated there was no reason to prolong it. Nikkalmati . > Do you remember the impression it made on you on your first reading, if any? > Nikkalmati I only recall being very disturbed without knowing why I felt that way. It seemed wrong. Nikkalmati > > > > 3. Having seen Crouch!Moody demonstrate the Unforgivables in Harry's class, what > do you think of the Ministry's policy of not showing dark curses to students > until they're in sixth year, and about DD ignoring that? Nikkalmati Well we all know the Ministry knows best. :) I think DD knew it was a dangerous time and called for radical measures. He felt it was better for the students to see the curses than to be forced to fight against them unexpectedly. Besides, he had a ready-made teacher who knew the ropes and he took advantage of it. Nikkalmati > > > > > 4. Harry didn't seem to make anything of Neville's distress after seeing the > Cruciatus curse. Given his own feelings about Avada Kedavra, do you think he > should have been more perceptive about Neville, or did he have too much to think > about on his own account? Nikkalmati Boys are not generally that perceptive. It is not polite to notice other people's distress. He also had his own issues to deal with. He had never seen the AK before and he was reliving his parents' deaths. I can't blame him for not "reaching out" to Neville. He was responsive to Hermione's concern about Neville. He did not follow up that night in the dorm however. Nikkalmati > > > > > > 5. Some readers have seen truth in Harry and Ron's made-up homework predictions. > What do you think? Here's the list: > > Monday: Ron -cough; Harry - burns > > Tuesday: Ron - lose a treasured possession (H's idea); Harry - stabbed in back > by a friend (R's idea) > > Wednesday: Ron - lose a fight; Harry - lose a bet (was going to have a fight, > but R said it first) > > > Later on: Ron - changes a second drowning to being trampled by a Hippogriff; > Harry - death by decapitation. Nikkalmati I would like to find something, but I don't see it. Nikkalmati > > > > > 6. What do you think of the name S.P.E.W. and Hermione sticking with it after > Harry's and Ron's immediate reactions? Nikkalmati Not only doesn't she have a sense of humour, she doesn't see how other people will react. Just because Ron and Harry are being childish doesn't mean she shoud ignore the obvious mistake she has made. Very hard for Hermione to admit a mistake. She ought to take them more seriously, but her own enthusiasm carries her away. I wonder what she was researching so much. Didn't she get that the elves like their work? She even sneakily attempts to free them without their consent because she knows best. Nikkalmati > > > > > 7. Sirius says DD has been reading the signs. What are they? How many can we > list? Nikkalmati I am not sure what Sirius and DD would both know about. Maybe DD had given Sirius a heads up about his suspicions and asked him to watch Harry. Sirius would ttrust that DD was keeping up on things. Nikkalmati > > > > > Please add any other questions you can think of! Nikkalmati Harry thinks Snape is avoiding Moody and is a bit afraid of him. Do you think that is true and why would Snape be afraid? We know Crouch does not trust Snape (smart boy); was Moody, the real Moody, aware Snape had been accused as a DE and didn't he think DD was right about Snape? Nikkalmati > > Thanks, Annemehr, for the questions. > > > -