From CatMcNulty at comcast.net  Wed Feb  1 17:27:54 2012
From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (catmcnulty)
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:27:54 -0000
Subject: Flowers
In-Reply-To: <jg9ood+eb95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jgbsmq+rpcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191778



> Cat:
> > Hi Folks!
> >
> > I know this is primarily a two person discussion of late but I would like to delurk just a moment, Please.
> > Referring to the discussion specifically about Remus Lupin. When we were first introduced to the character, I was already attuned to the fact that JKR "LOVED" to play with names and hint about a possible hidden aspect of their character with their name. That being said, was blatantly obvious to me that there was definitely something "wolfish" about Remus Lupin. First, Remus along with his twin Romulus were raised by a she-wolf and founded Rome (according to legend). Also, even though Lupin is a flower, it still sounds close enough to Lupine, to make the wolfish connection. :-)
>
> Geoff:
> Which parallels my early comment in 191767.

Cat:
Pardom Me for making a comment. I'm a bit busy and apparently miss
one of your many comments. Have a nice day.





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb  1 22:29:14 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 22:29:14 -0000
Subject: Flowers
In-Reply-To: <jgbsmq+rpcn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jgcebq+qfh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191779



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catmcnulty" <CatMcNulty at ...> wrote:

Cat:
> > > Hi Folks!
> > >
> > > I know this is primarily a two person discussion of late but I would like to delurk just a moment, Please.
> > > Referring to the discussion specifically about Remus Lupin. When we were first introduced to the character, I was already attuned to the fact that JKR "LOVED" to play with names and hint about a possible hidden aspect of their character with their name. That being said, was blatantly obvious to me that there was definitely something "wolfish" about Remus Lupin. First, Remus along with his twin Romulus were raised by a she-wolf and founded Rome (according to legend). Also, even though Lupin is a flower, it still sounds close enough to Lupine, to make the wolfish connection. :-)

Geoff:
> > Which parallels my early comment in 191767.

Cat:
> Pardom Me for making a comment. I'm a bit busy and apparently miss
> one of your many comments. Have a nice day.

Geoff:
Thank you. May I wish you the same?

I was merely pointing out that our remarks paralleled each other - not that 
they were identical. Perhaps I should have used the term 'complemented' 
because, if anyone hadn 't picked up my Remus reference, you explained 
it very succinctly. Mark you, I still can't think of Remus' surname without 
visualising this guy with a tapering blue head and with green legs buried 
in the soil.
:-)




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  2 21:44:43 2012
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (Donald McCrary)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:44:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flowers
In-Reply-To: <jg9ood+eb95@eGroups.com>
References: <jg9ood+eb95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <88AA8D97-3E14-4945-B335-D13269717609@yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191780



Sent from my iPad

On Jan 31, 2012, at 5:08 PM, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catmcnulty" <CatMcNulty at ...> wrote:
> 
> Cat:
> > Hi Folks!
> > 
> > I know this is primarily a two person discussion of late but I would like to delurk just a moment, Please. 
> > Referring to the discussion specifically about Remus Lupin. When we were first introduced to the character, I was already attuned to the fact that JKR "LOVED" to play with names and hint about a possible hidden aspect of their character with their name. That being said, was blatantly obvious to me that there was definitely something "wolfish" about Remus Lupin. First, Remus along with his twin Romulus were raised by a she-wolf and founded Rome (according to legend). Also, even though Lupin is a flower, it still sounds close enough to Lupine, to make the wolfish connection. :-)
> 
> Geoff:
> Which parallels my early comment in 191767.
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb  5 17:56:41 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Feb 2012 17:56:41 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/5/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1328464601.16.33147.m3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191781

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 5, 2012
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
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Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
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From jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com  Wed Feb  8 01:15:45 2012
From: jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com (jeanine)
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 01:15:45 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
Message-ID: <jgsic1+sf61@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191782

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered off-list (to email inboxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space)

GOBLET OF FIRE CH. 8: The Quidditch World Cup.

The chapter opens with a colourful and detailed description of the Quidditch
ground and of the atmosphere. We learn that the Weasleys have what would appear
to be expensive seats in the Top Box. Harry meets Winky the house-elf and learns
of her disapproval of Dobby's current attitude to life. The Weasleys and Harry
are joined in their box by Fudge and the Malfoys.
Harry and Ron have their first sight of veelas and are enthralled. Hermione
remains immune to their charms.
The Irish team mascots shower the air with gold coins, which Ron gathers and
uses to pay Harry for the Omnioculars.
The Bulgarian and Irish teams are introduced to the crowd and play begins. The
match is described in some considerable detail. At one point the competitive
spirit beetween the two sets of team mascots leads to their becoming engaged
with each other and Harry sees the veela in their other form, that of
aggressive, scaly-winged bird-like creatures.
Finally the game ends with Ireland, the winners, ahead on points but Bulgaria
with the Snitch. Hermione appears to be impressed by the prowess of the
Bulgarian Seeker, Krum.
The teams come into the Top Box, where Harry is seated, to be congratulated by
Bagman and the crowd and for the Irish team to receive the Cup. Harry considers
Krum to be somewhat ungainly but Krum, with facial injuries received during the
match, is given a rapturous reception by the crowd.
The chapter closes with Fred and George, who have obviously had a bet on the
match with Bagman, coming up to Bagman to receive their winnings.


Questions:

1. Why would Ron say 'So that's a house-elf? Weird things, aren't they?' Would
he not have come across one before now? And if not, as a member of an old
wizarding family he would know all about them and their belief in their
subservience to wizards.
2. What do you think was/were the purpose/s of this chapter? So much of it is
merely an account of a sports fixture. Was there anything in this chapter that
you thought would be important later on?
3. Why did Mr Weasley instruct Harry and Ron to put their fingers in their ears
to resist the lure of the veelas when the text suggests that it was their
dancing that enthralls the watching males? No mention was made of their singing
or of their making music.
4. Do you think Severus would be sensitive to the veelas' charms? Would Dumbledore?
Any other questions for discussion?
NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next, Chapter 9 of Goblet of Fire coming up soon. If you would like to volunteer
to lead a GOF chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner@
yahoogroups.com
(without the space).

Jeanine






From frankd14612 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  7 02:42:58 2012
From: frankd14612 at gmail.com (frankd14612)
Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 02:42:58 -0000
Subject: Weekly chat session
Message-ID: <jgq33i+ivhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191783

No one but Yolanda and I logged into the chat room, and at different times yesterday. I wonder if interest in the Harry Potter series is on the wane. Comments?

Frank D




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Wed Feb  8 10:58:35 2012
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:58:35 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <jgsic1+sf61@eGroups.com>
References: <jgsic1+sf61@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <745A4B4610AE4CC187D99800A7396F1D@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 191784

Questions:

1. Why would Ron say 'So that's a house-elf? Weird things, aren't they?' 
Would he not have come across one before now? And if not, as a member of an 
old wizarding family he would know all about them and their belief in their 
subservience to wizards.

Liz:
The Weasleys are an old pure blood family, yes, but they strike me very much 
as commoners. I do not think they want to be served and would probably feel 
uncomfortable with a creature like a House-elf. Therefore, I don't think Ron 
would have ever seen one, remember the mark of a good house elf is not to be 
seen, so if he had visited other families, he shouldn't have seen one. Why 
he doesn't know about them? I think that is down to his family, Molly would 
never tolerate being served upon and would IMO therefore not see the need to 
educate her son in them, unless he asked, of course.

2. What do you think was/were the purpose/s of this chapter? So much of it 
is merely an account of a sports fixture. Was there anything in this chapter 
that you thought would be important later on?

Liz:
I thought meeting another house-elf was important, as Dobby had been 
important in CoS. Can't really see the point in the chapter apart from that, 
although a Quidditch match description would entertain a lot of younger 
readers.

3. Why did Mr Weasley instruct Harry and Ron to put their fingers in their 
ears to resist the lure of the veelas when the text suggests that it was 
their dancing that enthralls the watching males? No mention was made of 
their singing or of their making music.

Liz:
Hmm. I suspect that Arthur had experience of Veela's and found this method 
worked for him, perhaps because his eyesight wasn't as good as others.

4. Do you think Severus would be sensitive to the veelas' charms? Would 
Dumbledore?

Liz:
Severus affected? No, he had too much control over his mind and emotions. 
Dumbledore, however, seemed more affected by his emotions and I think he 
would be affected, although I feel he would have the ability to bring 
himself back to normal.

Any other questions for discussion?
Liz:
House-elves are usually not seen. Do you think other people thought it 
unusual that Winky was out in public? Did this show a change in Crouch's 
character? 




From pflynn928 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Feb  8 16:59:49 2012
From: pflynn928 at sbcglobal.net (Pat Flynn)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 08:59:49 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <745A4B4610AE4CC187D99800A7396F1D@TrekyPC>
References: <jgsic1+sf61@eGroups.com> <745A4B4610AE4CC187D99800A7396F1D@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <00c601cce683$12db2dc0$38918940$@net>

No: HPFGUIDX 191785

> 1. Why would Ron say 'So that's a house-elf? Weird things, aren't
> they?'
> Would he not have come across one before now? And if not, as a member
> of an old wizarding family he would know all about them and their
> belief in their subservience to wizards.
> 
> Liz:
> The Weasleys are an old pure blood family, yes, but they strike me very
> much as commoners. I do not think they want to be served and would
> probably feel uncomfortable with a creature like a House-elf.
> Therefore, I don't think Ron would have ever seen one, remember the
> mark of a good house elf is not to be seen, so if he had visited other
> families, he shouldn't have seen one. Why he doesn't know about them? I
> think that is down to his family, Molly would never tolerate being
> served upon and would IMO therefore not see the need to educate her son
> in them, unless he asked, of course.
> 

I think Molly's attitude may have been a common one in her generation of
Wizarding families, even pureblood families.  The Weasley family is
described as extensive, so Ron probably visited many cousins, etc. and never
encountered one.  I picture the WW as undergoing a social rift - there were
some purebloods who were desperately clinging to the old traditions - and
thus making them ripe for Voldemort's influence - while others, like the
Weasleys, were rejecting some of the old customs in favor of tolerance of
Muggles and Muggle-borns, etc.

Pat




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb  8 20:19:13 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:19:13 -0000
Subject: Weekly chat session
In-Reply-To: <jgq33i+ivhc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jgulc1+1001m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191786

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frankd14612" <frankd14612 at ...> wrote:

Frank D:
> No one but Yolanda and I logged into the chat room, and at different times yesterday. I wonder if interest in the Harry Potter series is on the wane. Comments?

Geoff:
Well, I'm not a chat room type but I have very, very occasionally logged on 
just to see what was going on and I don't recall ever seeing more than a 
handful of folk on line; the conversation seemed to be very sporadic and 
not very Potter orientated.

In the same way, it could be said that OTC  is in a similar state. There have 
only been birthday greetings and Chat reminders since ab out mid-January
and movie hasn't shown anything since a post which I put up on December.







From thedossetts at gmail.com  Thu Feb  9 16:34:32 2012
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 16:34:32 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <00c601cce683$12db2dc0$38918940$@net>
Message-ID: <jh0sio+gisa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191787



---
> > Liz:
> > The Weasleys are an old pure blood family, yes, but they strike me very
> > much as commoners. I do not think they want to be served and would
> > probably feel uncomfortable with a creature like a House-elf.
> > Therefore, I don't think Ron would have ever seen one, remember the
> > mark of a good house elf is not to be seen, so if he had visited other
> > families, he shouldn't have seen one. Why he doesn't know about them? I
> > think that is down to his family, Molly would never tolerate being
> > served upon and would IMO therefore not see the need to educate her son
> > in them, unless he asked, of course.
> > 
> 
> I think Molly's attitude may have been a common one in her generation of
> Wizarding families, even pureblood families.  The Weasley family is
> described as extensive, so Ron probably visited many cousins, etc. and never
> encountered one.  I picture the WW as undergoing a social rift - there were
> some purebloods who were desperately clinging to the old traditions - and
> thus making them ripe for Voldemort's influence - while others, like the
> Weasleys, were rejecting some of the old customs in favor of tolerance of
> Muggles and Muggle-borns, etc.
> 
> Pat
>

Pat #2:

I would have to agree with the previous Pat. I always thought the Weasley family was rather liberal in the WW. They aren't much for the Malfoy way of life. Also, neither Arthur's nor Molly's family seem to be extremely wealthy (except the aunt who lends Fleur her tiara) - and a house elf just doesn't fit in with those kinds of family! Even if an older relative had had one, both families are big enough that who would inherit it? Arthur and Molly seem more middle class, and therefore unlikely to have a house elf.

Pat #2




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Fri Feb 10 04:54:21 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 23:54:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weekly chat session
References: <jgq33i+ivhc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6F0AF5170E3E4405B4416CED6B4BD89A@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 191788

I don't think the interest isn't on Harry Potter, but for me at least the 
chats come at a very inconvenient time.  Trust me, I'm still interested, and 
every so often I begin reading all the books again.
  Think peace,
   Dorothy

From: "frankd14612" <frankd14612 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:42 PM
> No one but Yolanda and I logged into the chat room, and at different times 
> yesterday. I wonder if interest in the Harry Potter series is on the wane. 
> Comments?
>
> Frank D




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Fri Feb 10 05:03:24 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:03:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
References: <jgsic1+sf61@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <D382FDD030D84909AAA53B109CBD3169@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 191789


From: "jeanine" <jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com>; <>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 8:15 PM

> Questions:
>
> 1. Why would Ron say 'So that's a house-elf? Weird things, aren't they?' 
> Would
> he not have come across one before now? And if not, as a member of an old
> wizarding family he would know all about them and their belief in their
> subservience to wizards.

Dorothy:  I don't think there'd be an occasion where Ron would ever meet a 
house-elf.  Even if he was in the home of someone who had one, they tend to 
be invisible servants.  And, certainly the Weasleys wouldn't have one, both 
because they're weren't wealthy (and one would need to take of another 
being), and because I don't think they were the types to even think about a 
servant.

> 2. What do you think was/were the purpose/s of this chapter? So much of it 
> is
> merely an account of a sports fixture. Was there anything in this chapter 
> that
> you thought would be important later on?

Dorothy:  I found the chapter very interesting, both because I learned a bit 
about world class quiddich, and because we found out about several 
characters that would later on come to be important to the story, Victor 
Krum, Barty Crouch, Winky the house-elf, etc.


> 3. Why did Mr Weasley instruct Harry and Ron to put their fingers in their 
> ears
> to resist the lure of the veelas when the text suggests that it was their
> dancing that enthralls the watching males? No mention was made of their 
> singing
> or of their making music.

Dorothy:  At the time I read this I never even gave it a thought.  It 
probably should have been for them to close their eyes.  :)

> 4. Do you think Severus would be sensitive to the veelas' charms? Would 
> Dumbledore?

Dorothy:  Severus-no, but Dumbledore-possibly 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb 10 08:02:06 2012
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 08:02:06 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <745A4B4610AE4CC187D99800A7396F1D@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <jh2itu+qo2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191790


> 
> Liz:
> The Weasleys are an old pure blood family, yes, but they strike me very much 
> as commoners. I do not think they want to be served and would probably feel 
> uncomfortable with a creature like a House-elf. 

Potioncat:
Whether it was just JKR's style of writing, or whether the Weasleys keep to themselves, Ron doesn't seem to know many other kids or families. And, as others have said, House-elves stay out of sight. 

But I think Molly would have been more than happy to have a House Elf if she could. It's in one of the books that she often said she'd like to have one to do the ironing. I wonder if Dobby had shown up at the door and offered to work for pay, if Molly would have considered it. 




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 10 12:36:02 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:36:02 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <jh2itu+qo2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jh32vi+og4q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191791



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

Liz:
> > The Weasleys are an old pure blood family, yes, but they strike me very much 
> > as commoners. I do not think they want to be served and would probably feel 
> > uncomfortable with a creature like a House-elf. 

Potioncat:
> Whether it was just JKR's style of writing, or whether the Weasleys keep to themselves, Ron doesn't seem to know many other kids or families. And, as others have said, House-elves stay out of sight. 

Geoff:
Well, with a family of seven and some fairly close in age, I suspect that the Weasleys
make their own entertainment, it's not so surprising. Also, since Ottery St. Catchpole
seems to be a bit out in the  Wizarding World sticks with maybe only the Lovegoods
close, the opportunities to mix are probably limited.




From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Feb 10 16:09:33 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:09:33 -0500
Subject: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <D382FDD030D84909AAA53B109CBD3169@DG22FG61>
References: <jgsic1+sf61@eGroups.com> <D382FDD030D84909AAA53B109CBD3169@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <4F35413D.9000401@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191792

Dorothy
> I found the chapter very interesting, both because I learned a bit 
> about world class quiddich, and because we found out about several 
> characters that would later on come to be important to the story, 
> Victor Krum, Barty Crouch, Winky the house-elf, etc.

Bart:
This had not occurred to me until the moment I read this: we never find 
out what happened to Winky. And she was not in great shape the last few 
times we saw her, and now she's a widow. We do get some interesting 
(albeit never made relevant to the story) information about house elves 
from her, at least by inference. It appears that house elves are bound 
to their houses for life. It is not clear what the life spans of house 
elves are; they may be immune to disease and aging. Still house elves 
can apparently have children, although we know nothing of the upbringing 
of those children. Now, by house elf standards, Dobby is quite insane, 
but he had no problem transferring his loyalty to Harry Potter and 
Hogwarts. And Kreacher was able to transfer his loyalty with difficulty, 
although it was to the same house. Winky, after being given her freedom, 
seems unable to attach to Hogwarts, and doesn't even seem capable of 
doing her job, although it is implied that the Hogwarts house elves are 
given the appreciation that they seem to crave (they are compelled to 
work hard, but appreciation seems to be their major source of pleasure).

So, I have a question: other than giving explanation about the Crouches, 
what purpose does Winky serve in the novels?

     Bart



From ddankanyin at cox.net  Fri Feb 10 21:31:42 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:31:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky the House Elf
References: <jgsic1+sf61@eGroups.com> <D382FDD030D84909AAA53B109CBD3169@DG22FG61> <4F35413D.9000401@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <398CB2E2A7B4431B803069E68D6DB12F@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 191793


From: "Bart Lidofsky" <bart at moosewise.com>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:09 AM
>
> So, I have a question: other than giving explanation about the Crouches,
> what purpose does Winky serve in the novels?

Dorothy:  At least we know that house-elves can become drunk on butterbeer, 
and we found out that the Crouches felt (and so Winky did, too) that Bagman 
was a "bad man".  We also found out that some house-elves cannot change 
their loyalties, but some can, and that they all can take care of their own.
  I think that's plenty of "purpose" being served by having Winky be one of 
the characters, and maybe that's more than enough.  It sure made for 
interesting reading.
  Dorothy 




From pflynn928 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb 10 16:25:03 2012
From: pflynn928 at sbcglobal.net (Pat Flynn)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 08:25:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <jh32vi+og4q@eGroups.com>
References: <jh2itu+qo2t@eGroups.com> <jh32vi+og4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008901cce810$8bf98c90$a3eca5b0$@net>

No: HPFGUIDX 191794

> Geoff:
> Well, with a family of seven and some fairly close in age, I suspect
> that the Weasleys make their own entertainment, it's not so surprising.
> Also, since Ottery St. Catchpole seems to be a bit out in the
> Wizarding World sticks with maybe only the Lovegoods close, the
> opportunities to mix are probably limited.

But isn't Ottery St. Catchpole, like Godric's Hollow, one of the settlements
that has a large Wizarding population?

Pat




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 10 13:54:36 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 07:54:36 -0600
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds41477503E4A20B7478922D5780@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191795

Yeah, the Weasleys find ways of entertaining themselves. I remember
they practice a lot of Quidditch. And I think the person that
commented on the house elf thing is right.

Corey




From maryannsears1972 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 10 23:50:32 2012
From: maryannsears1972 at gmail.com (Mary Ann Sears)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:50:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <jh0sio+gisa@eGroups.com>
References: <00c601cce683$12db2dc0$38918940$@net> <jh0sio+gisa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003801cce84e$d0d058b0$72710a10$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191796


> Liz:
> The Weasleys are an old pure blood family, yes, but they strike 
> me very much as commoners. I do not think they want to be served 
> and would probably feel uncomfortable with a creature like a 
> House-elf.
> <snip>

Mary Ann:
I thought that the house elfs were only to be with rich families?

 





From thedossetts at gmail.com  Sat Feb 11 20:51:52 2012
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:51:52 -0000
Subject: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <4F35413D.9000401@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jh6kd8+5nnr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191797




> So, I have a question: other than giving explanation about the Crouches, 
> what purpose does Winky serve in the novels?
> 
>      Bart
>
Pat:

We do learn quite a bit more about house elves because of Winky. She certainly points out that Hermione's "free the house elves" movement is unsound and won't work, at least not in the foreseeable future. Winky's problems in Book 4 come about because she is devastated - no longer needed by Mr. Crouch, she seems to have lost her sense of purpose in this life. Not even working at Hogwarts (and I'm certain the elves there feel needed!) seems to give her a reason to live. She wants only one thing - to take care of the Crouch family as long as there is anyone in the family alive. She's unable to function without that purpose. And that's what Ron, Hagrid, and others try to help Hermione to see. We also see more of the house elves because of Dobby and Winky, and learn how things work at Hogwarts (it isn't *all* magic!). Winky gives us a deeper look at the whole house elf issue.

Pat




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 11 10:35:20 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 04:35:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
Message-ID: <SNT133-DS21AD93ECE00523810940CBD5790@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191798

Yes I think house elves are mainly for rich families. But I think the only rich families that are referenced are the Crouches and the  Malfoys. And that old lady in Deathly Hallows. Besides I just can't see the Weasleys with a house elf. But Ron does make reference to wishing he had one. I can't remember the book right off hand. But if I had to guess I think its in Chamber of secrets.

Corey.



From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 12 07:58:00 2012
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:58:00 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 8: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <745A4B4610AE4CC187D99800A7396F1D@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <jh7re8+osql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191799





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Clark" <liz.treky at ...> wrote:

> The Weasleys are an old pure blood family, yes, but they strike me 
> very much as commoners. I do not think they want to be served and 
> would probably feel uncomfortable with a creature like a House-elf. 

zanooda:

I don't know, the twins declared in CoS that Molly definitely would want a house-elf, very much so: "Mum's always wishing we had a house-elf to do the ironing,' said George. 'But all we've got is a lousy old ghoul in the attic and gnomes all over the garden. House-elves come with big old manors and castles and places like that, you wouldn't catch one in our house...". I must say I don't blame Molly: with a family like that she needs a lot of help around the house :-).




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 12 17:56:37 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 12 Feb 2012 17:56:37 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/12/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1329069397.8.12192.m10@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191800

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 12, 2012
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
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7 pm UK



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From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 12 12:11:37 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:11:37 -0600
Subject: Winky the House Elf
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191801

Hey. This is might be a wrong way to say this and if it is I hope somebody will let me know. Winky seems like a depressed house elf obviously. I wonder if she had any thoughts of Hurting herself? Again if I used the wrong phrases just let me know. 

Corey.




From frankd14612 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 12 21:26:13 2012
From: frankd14612 at gmail.com (frankd14612)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 21:26:13 -0000
Subject: Inviting JKR to a chat session
Message-ID: <jh9apl+viau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191802

Does anyone know how we could invite Joanne Rowling to a chat session? 

Frank D





From philip at whiuk.com  Mon Feb 13 07:56:19 2012
From: philip at whiuk.com (Philip Whitehouse)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:56:19 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Inviting JKR to a chat session
In-Reply-To: <jh9apl+viau@eGroups.com>
References: <jh9apl+viau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <E2D9FA35-272E-4995-95E2-F54B2FB51C40@whiuk.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191803

> Does anyone know how we could invite Joanne Rowling to a chat session? 
> 
> Frank D
> 
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/links_press.cfm

In theory contact her on the media address. In practice it'd be highly unlikely we'd be able to get her to commit the time especially given the list on that page.

Philip Whitehouse
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From maryannsears1972 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 14 15:13:07 2012
From: maryannsears1972 at gmail.com (Mary Ann Sears)
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:13:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191804


> Corey:
> Hey. This is might be a wrong way to say this and if it is I 
> hope somebody will let me know. Winky seems like a depressed 
> house elf obviously. I wonder if she had any thoughts of 
> Hurting herself? Again if I used the wrong phrases just let 
> me know. 

Mary Ann:
Last time I remember she was in the kitchen with the other house 
elves. It doesn't mention much about her.




From maryannsears1972 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 14 15:13:07 2012
From: maryannsears1972 at gmail.com (Mary Ann Sears)
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:13:07 -0600
Subject: Question -- Pottermore
Message-ID: <005a01cceb2b$64a29740$2de7c5c0$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191805

Hello, has anyone checked out the web site pottermore.com?

Mary Ann








From kersberg at chello.nl  Wed Feb 15 11:02:59 2012
From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:02:59 -0000
Subject: Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <005a01cceb2b$64a29740$2de7c5c0$@com>
Message-ID: <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191806

haven't checked in on Pottermore at all,
actually this whole Pottermore annoys me very much, only a limited group was allowed to subscibe and the site is in Beta for ages since it started with much noise and attention.
Don't know what happens at the site, if anything happens at all.
I hoped it would be a medium for information about new cannon facts, JKR has enough shoeboxes filled with notes that could be interesting, but I never heard items like: "the mother of Lucius Malfoy is called such-and-so, as revealed on Pottermore".

The only thing I hear is JKR ditched her agent in change for another and the management of Pottermore seemed the be at the base of that.

When going to "Inside Pottermore" one gets fanart, well about there there is plenty on the net, no need to have another "highprofile, highmaintaince"sitre for that. 
Pottermore is becoming a kind of Nevermore this way. 

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann Sears" <maryannsears1972 at ...> wrote:
>
> Hello, has anyone checked out the web site pottermore.com?
> 
> Mary Ann
>





From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Wed Feb 15 12:54:07 2012
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:54:07 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com>
References: <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <868B1802733A48AF801A1F555BBAABBF@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 191807

I'm a beta tester on Pottermore. It's been in Beta for AGES, but it's had a 
lot of teething problems. It does give additional canon facts, such as 
McGonagall was married but her husband died.

It takes you through the books, one by one, and as yet only PS is available 
on Beta. I do hope more little snippets of information will be revealed when 
the site goes live.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Feb 15 14:48:38 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:48:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com>
References: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl> <005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com>
Message-ID: <1329317318.27484.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191808




> Corey:
> Hey. This is might be a wrong way to say this and if it is I
> hope somebody will let me know. Winky seems like a depressed
> house elf obviously. I wonder if she had any thoughts of
> Hurting herself? Again if I used the wrong phrases just let
> me know.

June:
I don't think that she had thoughts of suicide, I just think she is very sad and depressed. JKR did say in an interview once though that poor Winky never fully got over her dismissal from Crouch.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From philip at whiuk.com  Wed Feb 15 19:02:10 2012
From: philip at whiuk.com (Philip Whitehouse)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:02:10 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <1329317318.27484.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl> <005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com> <1329317318.27484.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <23ADDB3C-1EE5-4B79-A35F-1D4DCF31A27F@whiuk.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191809

> > Corey:
> > Hey. This is might be a wrong way to say this and if it is I 
> > hope somebody will let me know. Winky seems like a depressed 
> > house elf obviously. I wonder if she had any thoughts of 
> > Hurting herself? Again if I used the wrong phrases just let 
> > me know. 
> 
> June:
> I don't think that she had thoughts of suicide, I just think she is very sad and depressed. JKR did say in an interview once though that poor Winky never fully got over her dismissal from Crouch.
> 
Philip:
Seeing as master-inflicted self-harm is not only not unusual but considered normal - Dobby and Kreacher being notable examples, it is plausible that Winky could have self-harmed to punish herself even in the absence of a direction from her master. However I dont think suicide would be considered. Living with the guilt seems to be the house elf attitude to disappointing a master - Kreacher live in guilt due to his failure to Regulus and obeys commands of a portrait to ensure his commitment to the Black family.

Philip W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Wed Feb 15 21:47:40 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 16:47:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question -- Pottermore
References: <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1BD1F80783CD423BAA2A844FE82AE400@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 191810

When Pottermore was announced I went to the site, and it asked for my email 
so that when it started I would be informed.  Nothing ever showed up, so I 
never went there.  Evidently I didn't miss much.  Darn it!
 Dorothy

From: "kamion53" <kersberg at chello.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:02 AM
> haven't checked in on Pottermore at all,
> actually this whole Pottermore annoys me very much, only a limited group 
> was allowed to subscibe and the site is in Beta for ages since it started 
> with much noise and attention.
> Don't know what happens at the site, if anything happens at all.
> I hoped it would be a medium for information about new cannon facts, JKR 
> has enough shoeboxes filled with notes that could be interesting, but I 
> never heard items like: "the mother of Lucius Malfoy is called 
> such-and-so, as revealed on Pottermore".
>
> The only thing I hear is JKR ditched her agent in change for another and 
> the management of Pottermore seemed the be at the base of that.
>
> When going to "Inside Pottermore" one gets fanart, well about there there 
> is plenty on the net, no need to have another "highprofile, 
> highmaintaince"sitre for that.
> Pottermore is becoming a kind of Nevermore this way.
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann Sears" 
> <maryannsears1972 at ...> wrote:
>>
>> Hello, has anyone checked out the web site pottermore.com?
>>
>> Mary Ann




From tonyaminton at gmail.com  Wed Feb 15 13:55:46 2012
From: tonyaminton at gmail.com (Tonya Minton)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 07:55:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <868B1802733A48AF801A1F555BBAABBF@TrekyPC>
References: <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com>
	<868B1802733A48AF801A1F555BBAABBF@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <CAFo+NeS6A0866zPF8x5PtO79gfLRKFJUOAmpUU7txVvS=1uzTg@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191811

I have to say that I am a little frustrated with the forever beta testing
of Pottermore myself.  Why are they waiting so long to open it up??  I
think they need to open it up and let the little things that are not
working get worked out.  I truly think that everyone of us loves everything
Potter so much that we will have patience with the site the way it is.  We
just want to experience more Potter!!

Thanks,
Tonya







From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Feb 15 14:35:50 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:35:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com>
References: <005a01cceb2b$64a29740$2de7c5c0$@com> <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1329316550.48918.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191812

> Mary Ann:
> Hello, has anyone checked out the web site pottermore.com?


June:
I am one of the ones who got in on the beta and it is pretty cool.
You go through the books and learn more about them but you do a year
at a time. Right now they are still in the first year. You have to
go to Diagon Alley and get your school supplies including your wand
and pet. You also go through the sorting (I am in Slytherin) then
you can do potions and wand movements and duels and you have your
house that you can go to and meet other people in your house and at
Hogwarts. You collect stuff and learn things about all the characters
that were not revealed in the books. It is actually quite a lot of
fun.








From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 15 13:12:25 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 07:12:25 -0600
Subject: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com>
References: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl> <005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds9AB37359657C87A90F746D57D0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191813

>> Corey:
>> <snip> Winky seems like a depressed house elf obviously. I
>> wonder if she had any thoughts of hurting herself?

> Mary Ann:
> Last time I remember she was in the kitchen with the other
> house elves. It doesn't mention much about her.

Corey:
Yeah, guess you're right. I'm finally glad that Dobbie doesn't
hurt himself after the second book. What's your favorit Potter
book? Mine was the third one. It's the one that got me started.
Well, email soon. Your fellow member, Corey




From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 15 22:32:10 2012
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 22:32:10 +0000
Subject: Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <1BD1F80783CD423BAA2A844FE82AE400@DG22FG61>
References: <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com> <1BD1F80783CD423BAA2A844FE82AE400@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <4F3C326A.6020405@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191814

On 15/02/2012 21:47, dorothy dankanyin wrote:
> When Pottermore was announced I went to the site, and it asked for my email
> so that when it started I would be informed.  Nothing ever showed up, so I
> never went there.  Evidently I didn't miss much.  Darn it!
>   Dorothy
>

Seems that for most people at the moment the site should be called 
Pottermort rather than Pottermore!

AJM





From technomad at intergate.com  Thu Feb 16 01:06:24 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:06:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <1329317318.27484.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl>
	<005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com>
	<1329317318.27484.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120215190624.g8wy2y9iww4wc4oc@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191815

Quoting June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca>:

>
>
>
>> Corey:
>> Hey. This is might be a wrong way to say this and if it is I
>> hope somebody will let me know. Winky seems like a depressed
>> house elf obviously. I wonder if she had any thoughts of
>> Hurting herself? Again if I used the wrong phrases just let
>> me know.
>
> June:
> I don't think that she had thoughts of suicide, I just think she is   
> very sad and depressed. JKR did say in an interview once though that  
>  poor Winky never fully got over her dismissal from Crouch.
>
>
I tend to think that house-elves' feelings toward masters or  
mistresses with whom they've bonded are very like familial love.   
While I had problems with both my parents, if I had ever publicly  
denounced and disowned them, and made it clear publicly and privately  
that I _meant it,_ they'd have been absolutely heartbroken, and likely  
never gotten over it.

Of course, just being in the same house as an elf, or even its legal  
owner, does not mean that the elf has bonded with any given person.   
Sirius and Regulus both grew up with Kreacher, but Kreacher never  
loved Sirius and apparently did love Regulus...and was loved back,  
enough for Regulus to break with the DEs over Voldemort's treatment of  
Kreacher.  And even after Regulus' death, Kreacher mourned.

  --Eric, who used to despise Kreacher but felt horrible about that  
after reading his story in _Deathly Hallows._

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From ospreyemblem at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 16 22:08:02 2012
From: ospreyemblem at yahoo.com (ospreyemblem)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 22:08:02 -0000
Subject: Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <005a01cceb2b$64a29740$2de7c5c0$@com>
Message-ID: <jhjuo2+l37t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191816


> Mary Ann:
> Hello, has anyone checked out the web site pottermore.com?

ospreyemblem:
I have, and while some have been given early access, it is
still open to only those few for a while more. I believe that
the public access date is sometime in mid-2012.




From maryannsears1972 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 17 00:35:04 2012
From: maryannsears1972 at gmail.com (Mary Ann Sears)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:35:04 -0600
Subject: Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <1329316550.48918.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <005a01cceb2b$64a29740$2de7c5c0$@com> <jhg3d3+3d9h@eGroups.com> <1329316550.48918.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003c01cced0c$212eafc0$638c0f40$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191817

>> Mary Ann:
>> Hello, has anyone checked out the web site pottermore.com?

> June:
> I am one of the ones who got in on the beta and it is pretty cool.
You go through the books and learn more about them but you do a year
> at a time. Right now they are still in the first year. You have to
go to Diagon Alley and get your school supplies including your wand
> and pet. You also go through the sorting (I am in Slytherin) then
you can do potions and wand movements and duels and you have your
> house that you can go to and meet other people in your house and at
Hogwarts. You collect stuff and learn things about all the characters
> that were not revealed in the books. It is actually quite a lot of
> fun.


Mary Ann:
Cool, you could do all of this on pottermore? Sorry could you please
email off line I would like to hear more.




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 17 01:13:32 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:13:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <1329317318.27484.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl> <005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com> <1329317318.27484.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds290E124B1C5AF291FC5CED5630@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191818

> June:
> I don't think that she had thoughts of suicide, I just think
> she is very sad and depressed. JKR did say in an interview
> once though that poor Winky never fully got over her dismissal
> from Crouch.


Corey:
Yeah, Winky was very devoted to Crouch. I like Dobby better and
once Kreacher came around to like Potter, that was fun too.




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 17 01:15:19 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:15:19 -0600
Subject: Winky the House Elf
In-Reply-To: <23ADDB3C-1EE5-4B79-A35F-1D4DCF31A27F@whiuk.com>
References: <SNT133-ds2090820A8FF3E1CEEAC17CD57E0@phx.gbl> <005101cceb2b$5d70b3d0$18521b70$@com> <1329317318.27484.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <23ADDB3C-1EE5-4B79-A35F-1D4DCF31A27F@whiuk.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds8C0964D01C1C9E7713698D5630@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191819

> Philip:
> Seeing as master-inflicted self-harm is not only not unusual but
considered normal - Dobby and Kreacher being notable examples, it is
plausible that Winky could have self-harmed to punish herself even in
> the absence of a direction from her master. However I dont think
> suicide would be considered. Living with the guilt seems to be the
house elf attitude to disappointing a master - Kreacher live in guilt
> due to his failure to Regulus and obeys commands of a portrait to
> ensure his commitment to the Black family.


Corey:
Yeah, guess you're right. It's just too bad we couldn't have
houselves in real life. Wouldn't that be fun?









From ospreyemblem at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 18 23:52:05 2012
From: ospreyemblem at yahoo.com (ospreyemblem)
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 23:52:05 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <8o4rl1+1b4m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jhpdj5+iqui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191820

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12)
> Ebony AKA AngieJ:
> I think it bears discussing here.  We are all adults (or close
> enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry
> Potter books that creep you out?


ospreyemblem:
I most fear getting what I want most, which sounds dreamy and
ridiculous, but it is true. I want, more than anything, to have
something that I can never get. I will never be magic. I will
never talk to a ghost. I will never fly, or die young, or get
enough sleep. However, there is a reason I cannot have those
things. They would kill me.




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 19 02:14:02 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 20:14:02 -0600
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jhpdj5+iqui@eGroups.com>
References: <jhpdj5+iqui@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds14398B025F5B2225E0536AD5610@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191821

>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12)
>> Ebony AKA AngieJ:
>> I think it bears discussing here. We are all adults (or close
>> enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry
>> Potter books that creep you out?

> ospreyemblem:
> I most fear getting what I want most, which sounds dreamy and
> ridiculous, but it is true. I want, more than anything, to
> have something that I can never get. I will never be magic. I
> will never talk to a ghost. I will never fly, or die young, or
> get enough sleep. However, there is a reason I cannot have those
> things. They would kill me.


Corey:
No, I can't say there's a potter character that really scared me.
How about you. You're the one who brought up the topic after all.






From kpruk at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 19 14:41:56 2012
From: kpruk at yahoo.co.uk (Katharine)
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 14:41:56 -0000
Subject: Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <003c01cced0c$212eafc0$638c0f40$@com>
Message-ID: <jhr1nk+dlml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191822

Is anyone else stuck in the middle of chapter 5?





From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb 19 15:20:10 2012
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 15:20:10 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <jhr1nk+dlml@eGroups.com>
References: <jhr1nk+dlml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <A544BB75BF2A46FDA00B60C8D4F37889@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 191823

Goes through fine for me. Perhaps there is a problem with wand selection as 
this chapter deals with Ollivanders (same as the book).
Liz


> Is anyone else stuck in the middle of chapter 5?
>




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 19 17:56:37 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Feb 2012 17:56:37 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/19/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1329674197.9.23549.m10@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191824

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 19, 2012
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
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Enter the password: hpfguchat

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From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Feb 20 17:34:40 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 17:34:40 -0000
Subject: Question -- Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <CAFo+NeS6A0866zPF8x5PtO79gfLRKFJUOAmpUU7txVvS=1uzTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <jhu07g+d1dq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191825



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tonya Minton <tonyaminton at ...> wrote:
>
> I have to say that I am a little frustrated with the forever beta testing
> of Pottermore myself.  Why are they waiting so long to open it up??  I
> think they need to open it up and let the little things that are not
> working get worked out.  I truly think that everyone of us loves everything
> Potter so much that we will have patience with the site the way it is.  We
> just want to experience more Potter!!
> 
> Thanks,
> Tonya
>
Nikkalmati

I too am a beta on Pottermore and I think they tried to do too much on the site.  Many of the more sophisticated parts are not running that well.  I too just want more information and could do without the Wizard's duel and the potion making.  (I admit, it took me about 40 tries to make the learning potion, boil cure.  I have not made any others.)  I am confused about why they have not put up information on more than SS, so betas are also frustrated.

Nikkalmati




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 25 13:59:48 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:59:48 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191826

Below you will find a quote that I found on the YouTube site of a young atheist. The original said 'religion', but in this case I will change that to 'law' because it applies just as well, and because I don't want to get in to a argument about religion. 

In this case, 'law' will mean law in the legal sense, but also in the sense of rules and regulations and similar. 


Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.

(Law) is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.


Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but flout the rules and get into trouble. If he were a good boy, he would have stayed in his bed and let the adults handle it. 

Let the adults handle it for better or worse, though we know, without Harry's help, it would have always been for worse. 

As I have strongly counter argued in the past. Harry may not have obeyed the rules, but he always did what was right. 

He could not stand by and leave it to others, when it was clear that 'others' simply did not comprehend the source of the true danger, and they also seemed very adverse to listening to reason. 

To some, Harry's behavior was criminal. He disobeyed rules, he broke laws, he flouted authority at every turn, or so it seemed. 

To paraphrases Thomas Jefferson, 'the law is but the tyrants will'.

Harry did what was right, rather than what he was told. Would we really rather Harry did what he was told even when his conscience knew it was not right?  

An old argument, but I still, as always, side with Harry. 

Steve/bboyminn




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Sat Feb 25 16:48:43 2012
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 16:48:43 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005B2BFD8A5743DDA601C468A161F5F1@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 191827

As I was reading this a quote from Star Trek came to mind, 'There can be no 
justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in 
exceptions. When has justice ever been as simple as a rule book?'
Liz


> Below you will find a quote that I found on the YouTube site of a young 
> atheist. The original said 'religion', but in this case I will change that 
> to 'law' because it applies just as well, and because I don't want to get 
> in to a argument about religion.
>
> In this case, 'law' will mean law in the legal sense, but also in the 
> sense of rules and regulations and similar.
>
>
> Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.
>
> (Law) is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.
>
>
> Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but 
> flout the rules and get into trouble. If he were a good boy, he would have 
> stayed in his bed and let the adults handle it.
>
> Let the adults handle it for better or worse, though we know, without 
> Harry's help, it would have always been for worse.
>
> As I have strongly counter argued in the past. Harry may not have obeyed 
> the rules, but he always did what was right.
>
> He could not stand by and leave it to others, when it was clear that 
> 'others' simply did not comprehend the source of the true danger, and they 
> also seemed very adverse to listening to reason.
>
> To some, Harry's behavior was criminal. He disobeyed rules, he broke laws, 
> he flouted authority at every turn, or so it seemed.
>
> To paraphrases Thomas Jefferson, 'the law is but the tyrants will'.
>
> Harry did what was right, rather than what he was told. Would we really 
> rather Harry did what he was told even when his conscience knew it was not 
> right?
>
> An old argument, but I still, as always, side with Harry.
>
> Steve/bboyminn




From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Feb 25 17:43:02 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 12:43:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F491DA6.9010105@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191828

On 2/25/2012 8:59 AM, Steve wrote:
> Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.
>
> (Law) is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.
>

Bart:
     Of course, one must realize that Western culture stems from a 
combination of Judeo-Christian philosophy (as opposed to theology) and 
Greco-Roman philosophy. They are often in agreement, but there are 
conflicts, particularly in the two sentences above (note that there is a 
similar conflict in Confucian vs. Taoist philosophies in China).

     The question arrives as to whether or not Harry makes the right 
choices. Psychologically, he has a "hero complex", where he feels that 
he must step in, and that he is the only one who can. Outside of this, 
he frequently makes wrong choices (notably  in OOP, but also in POA). 
His fear of not being the hero frequently keeps him from giving the 
adults around him the information they would need to do the right thing, 
creating the situation where only Harry can fix it (to Harry's credit, 
it is clear that he is steered into a lot of that by DD's scheming).

     It's easy to make a moral choice when it works in your favor. Harry 
does make a number of difficult moral choices (such as agreeing to take 
on the responsibility of the DA). Perhaps the most difficult choice he 
makes, opening himself up to sacrifice in DH, is not made due to 
morality, but due to faith in DD.

     But most of Harry's choices consist of whatever feels good to him; 
if it happens to be in the direction of morality, so much the better.

     Bart





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Feb 25 15:47:40 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 07:47:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1330184860.33477.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

>> Steve:
In this case, 'law' will mean law in the legal sense, but also in the sense of rules and regulations and similar.

Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.

(Law) is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.

Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but flout the rules and get into trouble. If he were a good boy, he would have stayed in his bed and let the adults handle it.

Let the adults handle it for better or worse, though we know, without Harry's help, it would have always been for worse.

As I have strongly counter argued in the past. Harry may not have obeyed the rules, but he always did what was right.

He could not stand by and leave it to others, when it was clear that 'others' simply did not comprehend the source of the true danger, and they also seemed very adverse to listening to reason.

To some, Harry's behavior was criminal. He disobeyed rules, he broke laws, he flouted authority at every turn, or so it seemed.

To paraphrases Thomas Jefferson, 'the law is but the tyrants will'.

Harry did what was right, rather than what he was told. Would we really rather Harry did what he was told even when his conscience knew it was not right?

An old argument, but I still, as always, side with Harry. <<


June:
Very well put Steve.? I totally agree. There is one more thing I
would like to add too, though. As Harry Potter is fictional, if he
did just go to bed and let the adults handle it, the Philosophers
Stone would have gone something like this: Lord Voldemort comes
back to life and kills everyone in the castle. The End.






From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sat Feb 25 20:57:58 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:57:58 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jibi0m+p1fc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191830

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

Steve:
> Below you will find a quote that I found on the YouTube site of a young atheist. The original said 'religion', but in this case I will change that to 'law' because it applies just as well, and because I don't want to get in to a argument about religion. 
> 
> In this case, 'law' will mean law in the legal sense, but also in the sense of rules and regulations and similar. 
 
> Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.
 
> (Law) is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.
 
> Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but flout the rules and get into trouble. If he were a good boy, he would have stayed in his bed and let the adults handle it. 
 
> Let the adults handle it for better or worse, though we know, without Harry's help, it would have always been for worse. 
 
> As I have strongly counter argued in the past. Harry may not have obeyed the rules, but he always did what was right. 
 
> He could not stand by and leave it to others, when it was clear that 'others' simply did not comprehend the source of the true danger, and they also seemed very adverse to listening to reason. 
 
> To some, Harry's behavior was criminal. He disobeyed rules, he broke laws, he flouted authority at every turn, or so it seemed. 
 
> To paraphrases Thomas Jefferson, 'the law is but the tyrants will'.
 
> Harry did what was right, rather than what he was told. Would we really rather Harry did what he was told even when his conscience knew it was not right?  
 
> An old argument, but I still, as always, side with Harry. 

Geoff:
As do I, Steve.

Edmund Burke is quoted as having said: "All that's necessary for the forces 
of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."

This quote is found in various forms if you Google it, but the gist is clear.

As a Christian, I hold that there are moral absolutes which always apply, 
and which often cover our interaction with other human beings: the sanctity 
of life as shown in the commandments which speak of murder, perjury and 
sexual misconduct. I do not believe that one of them is that, when evil 
threatens, one stays in bed or turns a blind eye and leaves things to the 
"powers that be". This does not only cover Harry but also adults. In the last 
few weeks, we have seen adults -  especially in Syria - who want to see 
justice and fairness prevail have taken up "arms against a sea of troubles". 
Should they have sat at home while their homes came down round their 
ears?

As we see in the quote above, Harry did not always obey the "rules" but, 
outside the absolutes to which I have referred, many were the product of 
other decisions, Take, for example, the way in which Harry was treated 
in OOTP.  Fudge was unwilling to accept that Voldemort had returned. 
Why? Maybe cowardice; he was afraid to face the facts and felt that by 
denying it, the event would go away, as shown in his campaign to 
ridicule Harry and Dumbledore. Or was he obsessed with retaining his 
power base? A very telling fact here is Umbridge's attempts to silence 
Harry, even admitting to sending Dementors after him partly because 
she obviously considered that Fudge needed to be supported and 
proved to be right at every turn.

Those who argue that Harry was a nasty little boy need to remember that 
Harry's life and welfare was affected by a fair number of nasty large adults 
who had a range of their own agendas. As someone has already said in a 
reply, if the Potterverse actually existed and Harry had stayed in bed, the 
result would have been, to modify a chapter heading from C S Lewis' "The
Last Battle": 'Night Falls on the Wizarding World'.









From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Feb 25 20:57:52 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 15:57:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <1330184860.33477.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com> <1330184860.33477.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F494B50.5020707@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191831

On 2/25/2012 10:47 AM, June Ewing wrote:
> Very well put Steve.  I totally agree. There is one more thing I would 
> like to add too, though. As Harry Potter is fictional, if he did just 
> go to bed and let the adults handle it, the Philosophers Stone would 
> have gone something like this: Lord Voldemort comes back to life and 
> kills everyone in the castle.

Bart:
     How? Do you really think he would have gotten past the Mirror of 
Erised?

     Bart



From ddankanyin at cox.net  Sat Feb 25 23:15:59 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 18:15:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Morality and Harry Potter
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <A930E99989E3468F9A67AE6B078639A8@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 191832

Steve,
  Me, too.  As I always say, "question authority".
  Dorothy

From: "Steve" <bboyminn at yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 8:59 AM
> Below you will find a quote that I found on the YouTube site of a young 
> atheist. The original said 'religion', but in this case I will change that 
> to 'law' because it applies just as well, and because I don't want to get 
> in to a argument about religion.
>
> In this case, 'law' will mean law in the legal sense, but also in the 
> sense of rules and regulations and similar.
>
>
> Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.
>
> (Law) is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.
>
>
> Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but 
> flout the rules and get into trouble. If he were a good boy, he would have 
> stayed in his bed and let the adults handle it.
>
> Let the adults handle it for better or worse, though we know, without 
> Harry's help, it would have always been for worse.
>
> As I have strongly counter argued in the past. Harry may not have obeyed 
> the rules, but he always did what was right.
>
> He could not stand by and leave it to others, when it was clear that 
> 'others' simply did not comprehend the source of the true danger, and they 
> also seemed very adverse to listening to reason.
>
> To some, Harry's behavior was criminal. He disobeyed rules, he broke laws, 
> he flouted authority at every turn, or so it seemed.
>
> To paraphrases Thomas Jefferson, 'the law is but the tyrants will'.
>
> Harry did what was right, rather than what he was told. Would we really 
> rather Harry did what he was told even when his conscience knew it was not 
> right?
>
> An old argument, but I still, as always, side with Harry.
>
> Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 26 00:55:29 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:55:29 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <A930E99989E3468F9A67AE6B078639A8@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <jibvu1+u185@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191833



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorothy dankanyin" <ddankanyin at ...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>   Me, too.  As I always say, "question authority".
>   Dorothy
> 

Steve:

While I fear we risk falling into the taboo subjects of religion and politics, I think the Harry Potter stories are very timely. 

We see political cowards like Fudge, as well as the Death Eaters entering the system by stealth and totally corrupting it in so many many ways, and not just in the USA, but in the whole western world. 

While many countries fight desperately for democracy, liberty, and freedom; we in the west let our sacred liberty fall in to fascism with out so much as a whimper. 

Where are the Harry Potters of the world when you really need them?

And do we have the courage to be Dumbledore's Army? 

Sorry, feeling very politically melancholy at the moment. 

Steve/bboyminn 




From inishumina at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 26 00:36:24 2012
From: inishumina at yahoo.co.uk (Antonia Fenech)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:36:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <1330216584.94638.YahooMailNeo@web28611.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191834

I totally agree with this, there are times when we must do what we 
know to be right, even if it goes against what we are told to do.

Antonia



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 26 17:56:47 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Feb 2012 17:56:47 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/26/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1330279007.11.93332.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191835

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 26, 2012
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

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From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Feb 26 21:13:05 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:13:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <4F491DA6.9010105@moosewise.com>
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com> <4F491DA6.9010105@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <1330290785.90019.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191836

> Bart:
> <snip> The question arrives as to whether or not Harry makes
the right choices. Psychologically, he has a "hero complex",
> where he feels that he must step in, and that he is the only
one who can. Outside of this, he frequently makes wrong choices
> (notably  in OOP, but also in POA). His fear of not being the
hero frequently keeps him from giving the adults around him the
information they would need to do the right thing, creating the
situation where only Harry can fix it (to Harry's credit, it is
> clear that he is steered into a lot of that by DD's scheming).
> <snip>


June:
You seem to forget, Bart, that when he does go to the teachers no
one believes him. For instance when he tells Prof McGonagall that
Malfoy is the one who sent the cursed necklace in OOP and in PS he
did go looking for Dumbledore when he was aware of what was happening
(even though he was incorrect of who was trying to steal the stone)
and Dumbledore had left the school. I don't think either that he had
a lot of trust in adults and in my opinion that is due to the Dursleys.





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Feb 26 21:15:42 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:15:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <4F494B50.5020707@moosewise.com>
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com> <1330184860.33477.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F494B50.5020707@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <1330290942.55823.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191837



>> On 2/25/2012 10:47 AM, June Ewing wrote:
>> Very well put Steve.  I totally agree. There is one more thing
>> I would like to add too, though. As Harry Potter is fictional,
>> if he did just go to bed and let the adults handle it, the
>> Philosophers Stone would have gone something like this: Lord
>> Voldemort comes back to life and kills everyone in the castle.

> Bart:
> How? Do you really think he would have gotten past the Mirror of
> Erised?

June:
You are missing my point, Bart. It is a story and in order for the
story to go forward you cannot send the main character to bed.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Feb 26 22:18:52 2012
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 22:18:52 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jieb4c+39ph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191838



, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
> 
> Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but flout the rules and get into trouble. If he were a good boy, he would have stayed in his bed and let the adults handle it. 
> 
> Let the adults handle it for better or worse, though we know, without Harry's help, it would have always been for worse. 
> 
> As I have strongly counter argued in the past. Harry may not have obeyed the rules, but he always did what was right. 

Potioncat:
Many? Really?
I can recall a number of threads that discussed rule breaking in general, sometimes Harry's specifically. Usually within a certain context but I'm not sure any list member really proposed Harry was a "nasty little boy who flouted rules."

Certainly if we are taking the point of view of another character cough*Snape*cough we could make a good argument for it. And I think there were times that a list member did that (may have myself, but couldn't swear to it.)  Lot's of times it may have seemed that way to other characters---but the reader almost always knew why Harry was doing something and understood his motives.

Any time a book is based on a youthful hero, he almost has to break rules to get past the adults in the story. And there has to be some reason the adults aren't 'there' for the events to occur. 

Certainly, if she wanted to write a different story, JKR could have made this Albus Dumbledore and the Sorcerer's Stone, or Severus Snape and the Sorcerer's Stone. In those cases, Albus or Severus would have had greater insight, greater presence of mind and it would have been much, much better for young Potter to stay in bed.

jmo, you know.
Potioncat






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 27 01:19:13 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 01:19:13 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jieb4c+39ph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jielmh+s790@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191839



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> , "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> > 
> > Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but flout the rules and get into trouble. ...
> 
> Potioncat:
> Many? Really?
> I can recall a number of threads that discussed rule breaking in general, sometimes Harry's specifically. Usually within a certain context but I'm not sure any list member really proposed Harry was a "nasty little boy who flouted rules."
> 
> ...
> 
> jmo, you know.
> Potioncat
>


Steve:

This has always bothered me, though I will say I don't deny people their opinions, but there is a group of people who very strongly believe in rules and conformity. They have riled against Harry as a nasty little rule breaker, and against the Twins as mean spirited viscous bullies. 

Now, I suspect, these are simply people who deeply believe in the rules as means of maintaining order in the world, and that if we were all rule breakers, it would be total anarchy. Which it probably would. 

However, they do not seem to realize that "the law is but the tyrants will". That there is a time and place for civil disobedience, and for breaking both the law and the rules. There really is a time, when the Death Eaters have infiltrated the government, that it is mandatory for the citizens to engage in civil unrest in order to restore, as an example, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, or the equivalent in the country in which you live. 

Bureaucracies and governments become corrupt. Their desire for order begins to override the rights of the individual and override a sense of what is truly right and just. 

But on the other hand, I can understand how democracy turns to tyranny when you are a few people charged with maintaining order in a school with 600 young wizards. I'm actually surprised that all the teachers haven't jumped out of windows in frustration by now. I do understand the very real need for the administrators of the school to keep a tight rein on things in order to hold chaos at bay. 

But I also think the habitual attitude of demanding ridged order blinds them to students who really do see a problem and/or have something to say. 

I think that is what Harry was fighting against in the school, adults who habitually favor order over truth and right. Though I don't think that is willful, I think it is habitual. It come from trying to keep 600 young wizards from descending into chaos and anarchy. It comes from a desperate and frustrating attempt to keep the inmates from taking over the asylum. 

I understand the staff on this issue.

But, more so, I understand Harry, which brings me back to the quote in the original post. Harry does what is morally right, even if it means flouting doing what he is told. 

McGonagall finds Harry and Ron at the entrance of the room that Fluffy was guarding and says (paraphrased) 'do you think two first years offer more protection than a pack of enchantments and the entire staff of Hogwarts?' 

And of course Harry's answer to himself is Yes, the game is corrupted, the enemy is within the gates, and he very much thinks the only hope is three first years, because only three first years believe that Snape is the enemy who has corrupted and compromised the protections. 

Of course we find that the compromising enemy is actually Quirrel, but they are right, inside knowledge has corrupted and compromised the protections. Something the other teachers absolutely do NOT want to hear. 

They have been in a desperate fight for order for so long, that order has become a higher priority that truth, or clear sighted objectiveness. 

They in a sense have become those who vehemently argue in this forum that Harry is a nasty rule breaker and the twins are bullying thugs. 

I don't deny them their opinion, and can see how they arrive at it, but I just a vehemently disagree. The Law is but the Tyrants will, and at some point citizen must stand up against tyranny if they have any hope of preserving Liberty. 

Harry was that person. He did what was wrong in order to accomplish what was right. Not just right in his opinion, but truly and morally right. 

Steve/bboyminnn 




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Feb 27 02:01:07 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:01:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <1330290942.55823.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com> <1330184860.33477.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F494B50.5020707@moosewise.com> <1330290942.55823.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F4AE3E3.7070102@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191840

June:
> You are missing my point, Bart. It is a story and in order for the 
> story to go forward you cannot send the main character to bed.

     True. But that doesn't mean that, within the context of the story, 
Harry made the right choices. If Voldemort hadn't tried to kill Harry, 
there wouldn't have been a story, either. Did Voldemort make the right 
choice?

     Bart




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Feb 27 03:23:31 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 03:23:31 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jiesvj+5k6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191841



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
>> 
> Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.
> 
> (Law) is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.
> 
> 
> Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but flout the rules and get into trouble. If he were a good boy, he would have stayed in his bed and let the adults handle it. 
> 
> Let the adults handle it for better or worse, though we know, without Harry's help, it would have always been for worse. 
> 
> As I have strongly counter argued in the past. Harry may not have obeyed the rules, but he always did what was right. 
> 
>snip>

Nikkalmati

I am not sure Harry does anything that rises to the level of morally wrong.   He does break rules and not always for good reasons - meeting Draco in the Trophy Room for a duel? He is rebellious and doesn't communicate well with adults, but can one say he really does anything morally wrong - at least in the first books?  (I know he deceptively used the potions book to improve his grades and he did cast Secumsempra - but those were later.)  I like how it all fits together - his upbringing, the way the adults brush him off -  they think they are doing the right thing too, and the way no one we see always makes the right choices.  If everyone did what they were supposed to do, there would be no story and it would not reflect life so well.  

The person in the stories who is the most rigid rulemaker is, of course, Umbridge, and I see her as the most evil person in the books, probably even more evil than LV himself.
 
I will add that I have an aversion to self-righteousness, which I tend to see in some who proclaim they know what is "right", despite what the lsw or religion or anyone else says (present company excepted of course).

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Feb 27 03:26:40 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 03:26:40 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds14398B025F5B2225E0536AD5610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <jiet5g+slc6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191842



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Corey overton <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:
>
> >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12)
> >> Ebony AKA AngieJ:
> >> I think it bears discussing here. We are all adults (or close
> >> enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry
> >> Potter books that creep you out?
> 
> > ospreyemblem:
> > I most fear getting what I want most, which sounds dreamy and
> > ridiculous, but it is true. I want, more than anything, to
> > have something that I can never get. I will never be magic. I
> > will never talk to a ghost. I will never fly, or die young, or
> > get enough sleep. However, there is a reason I cannot have those
> > things. They would kill me.
> 
> 
> Corey:
> No, I can't say there's a potter character that really scared me.
> How about you. You're the one who brought up the topic after all.
>
Nikkalmati

The character who scares me the most is Umbridge, because she is so completely believable, I;m sure she exists in RL, and because she has no doubts or self-awareness.

Nikkalmati




From kersberg at chello.nl  Mon Feb 27 11:09:37 2012
From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:09:37 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jifo9h+7dlg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191843



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>====> Steve/bboyminn
>


I wonder how long readers would follow the exploits of the main character is he really was a "...a nasty little boy....". One likes to relate in some way to the main character of a story and when this character only irritates because of his nastiness it is a tough job to get to the last chapter of the book and probably impossible to get to the next book let alone all seven of the serie.

A good novel character must have flaws as well as good qualities, only good qualities, makes him or her boring like hell, a fault the majority of MarySue ficwriters make.






From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Feb 27 15:30:31 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:30:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jifo9h+7dlg@eGroups.com>
References: <jifo9h+7dlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F4BA197.4050703@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191844

On 2/27/2012 6:09 AM, kamion53 wrote:
> I wonder how long readers would follow the exploits of the main character is he really was a "...a nasty little boy....". One likes to relate in some way to the main character of a story and when this character only irritates because of his nastiness it is a tough job to get to the last chapter of the book and probably impossible to get to the next book let alone all seven of the serie.

Bart:
     Philosopher Jacques Derrida is most famous for a concept called 
"deconstruction." It is partially based on the fact that language is not 
exact, and open to interpretation, and even the interpretations 
themselves, since they are based in language, are open to 
interpretation. One aspect of this is that, in any given narrative, 
there is a major idea and a minor idea, and the major idea drives out 
the minor idea. Or, another way of putting it is, "the victor writes the 
histories."

     Switching the major and the minor ideas, however, allow us to look 
at things from an expanded perspective. For example:  A couple of 
vandals break into an old woman's house and start destroying it. She 
catches them and tries to punish them, but they kill her, instead. That 
is a simple deconstruction of "Hansel and Gretel".

     One of the aspects of a "Harry Potter for Grownups" group is that 
we have real-world experience which we use to take a closer look at the 
books, rather than take them on face value. Sometimes, we may do it 
comically (postulating, for example, that wizards and witches have 
extra-large bladders, as there are a couple of examples of them going on 
hours-long journeys apparently without having to relieve themselves, 
such as the flight to the Ministry in OOP). Some are more serious (such 
as discussing the existence and nature of Voldemort's mental illness).

     JKR sometimes sacrifices internal consistency for creating a bit of 
comic relief. A larger problem with this is that she tends to plant 
clues for the overstory in tiny details in the individual books, which, 
while the books were being published, caused intelligent readers to 
scrutinize them very carefully. This caused the inconsistencies to loom 
larger. This lead, as well, to various forms of deconstruction. A major 
one, of course, is the analysis of Dumbledore. He is portrayed as a 
major hero, but he can also be viewed as a secretive manipulator, who 
manipulates Harry while making Harry believe that he was making his own 
choices.

     It is a common and understandable moral failing that people judge 
actions not based on the action itself or the context, but on who is on 
the performing or receiving end of the action. In situation comedies, 
there is often a character who is unlikeable, present so that the 
audience can laugh when things happen to him or her which would be 
tragic if the audience wasn't predisposed to "s/he deserved that" type 
of thinking.

     Let's take, for example, the scene from COS where Harry and the 
gang spy on Draco to see if he is the "heir to Slytherin". They drug 
Crabbe and Goyle to take them out of action. That is glossed by, but 
these are 2nd years. Hermione had already screwed up with the Polyjuice 
Potion; and they put Crabbe and Goyle's lives in danger just to test out 
their suspicions. Drugging someone is, in the RW, generally considered 
to be a horrible thing to do, but the major idea, that the Trio are 
heroes, drive out the minor idea, that they sometimes go beyond just 
"breaking the rules" but we ignore it, because their victims are 
unlikeable.

     According to JKR, one of the major themes of the books is that our 
characters can be defined by the choices we make. Therefore, it makes 
sense to analyze the choices the characters make without having the 
major idea that, because they are who they are, their choices are 
automatically the right ones.

     Bart



From ddankanyin at cox.net  Mon Feb 27 21:50:11 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:50:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Morality and Harry Potter
References: <jielmh+s790@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <F66F770EB1344E749A1D4C8D4CF28B99@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 191845

Steve,
  You voice my opinion as well, and very nicely and succinctly.  Thank you.
  Dorothy

From: "Steve" <bboyminn at yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:19 PM
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> , "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Many have argued that Harry was a nasty little boy who did nothing but 
>> > flout the rules and get into trouble. ...
>>
>> Potioncat:
>> Many? Really?
>> I can recall a number of threads that discussed rule breaking in general, 
>> sometimes Harry's specifically. Usually within a certain context but I'm 
>> not sure any list member really proposed Harry was a "nasty little boy 
>> who flouted rules."
>>
>> ...
>>
>> jmo, you know.
>> Potioncat
>>
>
>
> Steve:
>
> This has always bothered me, though I will say I don't deny people their 
> opinions, but there is a group of people who very strongly believe in 
> rules and conformity. They have riled against Harry as a nasty little rule 
> breaker, and against the Twins as mean spirited viscous bullies.
>
> Now, I suspect, these are simply people who deeply believe in the rules as 
> means of maintaining order in the world, and that if we were all rule 
> breakers, it would be total anarchy. Which it probably would.
>
> However, they do not seem to realize that "the law is but the tyrants 
> will". That there is a time and place for civil disobedience, and for 
> breaking both the law and the rules. There really is a time, when the 
> Death Eaters have infiltrated the government, that it is mandatory for the 
> citizens to engage in civil unrest in order to restore, as an example, the 
> Constitution and the Bill of Rights, or the equivalent in the country in 
> which you live.
>
> Bureaucracies and governments become corrupt. Their desire for order 
> begins to override the rights of the individual and override a sense of 
> what is truly right and just.
>
> But on the other hand, I can understand how democracy turns to tyranny 
> when you are a few people charged with maintaining order in a school with 
> 600 young wizards. I'm actually surprised that all the teachers haven't 
> jumped out of windows in frustration by now. I do understand the very real 
> need for the administrators of the school to keep a tight rein on things 
> in order to hold chaos at bay.
>
> But I also think the habitual attitude of demanding ridged order blinds 
> them to students who really do see a problem and/or have something to say.
>
> I think that is what Harry was fighting against in the school, adults who 
> habitually favor order over truth and right. Though I don't think that is 
> willful, I think it is habitual. It come from trying to keep 600 young 
> wizards from descending into chaos and anarchy. It comes from a desperate 
> and frustrating attempt to keep the inmates from taking over the asylum.
>
> I understand the staff on this issue.
>
> But, more so, I understand Harry, which brings me back to the quote in the 
> original post. Harry does what is morally right, even if it means flouting 
> doing what he is told.
>
> McGonagall finds Harry and Ron at the entrance of the room that Fluffy was 
> guarding and says (paraphrased) 'do you think two first years offer more 
> protection than a pack of enchantments and the entire staff of Hogwarts?'
>
> And of course Harry's answer to himself is Yes, the game is corrupted, the 
> enemy is within the gates, and he very much thinks the only hope is three 
> first years, because only three first years believe that Snape is the 
> enemy who has corrupted and compromised the protections.
>
> Of course we find that the compromising enemy is actually Quirrel, but 
> they are right, inside knowledge has corrupted and compromised the 
> protections. Something the other teachers absolutely do NOT want to hear.
>
> They have been in a desperate fight for order for so long, that order has 
> become a higher priority that truth, or clear sighted objectiveness.
>
> They in a sense have become those who vehemently argue in this forum that 
> Harry is a nasty rule breaker and the twins are bullying thugs.
>
> I don't deny them their opinion, and can see how they arrive at it, but I 
> just a vehemently disagree. The Law is but the Tyrants will, and at some 
> point citizen must stand up against tyranny if they have any hope of 
> preserving Liberty.
>
> Harry was that person. He did what was wrong in order to accomplish what 
> was right. Not just right in his opinion, but truly and morally right.
>
> Steve/bboyminnn




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Tue Feb 28 05:44:20 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:44:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <4F4AE3E3.7070102@moosewise.com>
References: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com> <1330184860.33477.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F494B50.5020707@moosewise.com> <1330290942.55823.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F4AE3E3.7070102@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <1330407860.49627.YahooMailNeo@web121302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191846


>> June:
>> You are missing my point, Bart. It is a story and in order for
>> the story to go forward you cannot send the main character to
>> bed.

> Bart:
> True. But that doesn't mean that, within the context of the story,
> Harry made the right choices. If Voldemort hadn't tried to kill
> Harry, there wouldn't have been a story, either. Did Voldemort
> make the right choice?


June:
The fact that Voldemort tried to kill Harry is the point of the
story and another reason Harry had to break rules (although he
really did nothing that Dumbledore didn't know about or expect).
As for did Voldemort make the right choice? I believe that he did
make the right choice for him.






From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 28 06:07:49 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:07:49 -0600
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jiet5g+slc6@eGroups.com>
References: <jiet5g+slc6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-DS21AD88D1203B175FC10F26D56E0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191847


>> Corey:
>> No, I can't say there's a potter character that really scared me.
>> How about you. You're the one who brought up the topic after all.

> Nikkalmati
> The character who scares me the most is Umbridge, because she is
> so completely believable, I;m sure she exists in RL, and because
> she has no doubts or self-awareness.

Corey:
Yeah, you have a good point. Rowling really made her a character that
you wouldn't forget. She was definitely a dislikeable character.





From technomad at intergate.com  Tue Feb 28 07:23:54 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 01:23:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-DS21AD88D1203B175FC10F26D56E0@phx.gbl>
References: <jiet5g+slc6@eGroups.com>
	<SNT133-DS21AD88D1203B175FC10F26D56E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20120228012354.6ib4wu1yyocg84wk@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191848

Quoting Corey overton <coverton1982 at hotmail.com>:

>
>> Nikkalmati
>> The character who scares me the most is Umbridge, because she is
>> so completely believable, I;m sure she exists in RL, and because
>> she has no doubts or self-awareness.
>
> Corey:
> Yeah, you have a good point. Rowling really made her a character that
> you wouldn't forget. She was definitely a dislikeable character.
>
I'm told that she's less liked than Voldemort.  I know of fanfics  
where Voldemort gets sympathetic, or at least neutral, treatment, but  
none for Umbridge.  Part of it, I think, is because she _is_ so  
believable.  Almost anybody can imagine working for, or being the  
pupil of, an Umbridge figure, while very few of us ever expect to meet  
a snake-faced madman who wants to live forever.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 28 19:15:54 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:15:54 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jiet5g+slc6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jij95a+rq5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191849

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote: 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Corey overton <coverton1982@> wrote:

Corey:
> > No, I can't say there's a potter character that really scared me.
> > How about you. You're the one who brought up the topic after all.

Nikkalmati: 
> The character who scares me the most is Umbridge, because she is so completely believable, I;m sure she exists in RL, and because she has no doubts or self-awareness.

Geoff:
Interesting, because Umbridge doesn't scare me. She makes me so frustrated,
wound up and flaming angry that I could cheerfully throttle her. I have on 
occasion met people like her who are so assured that they are right and the 
world should acknowledge this and revolve round them and I foster an extreme
dislike because everything that is said contrary to their view is just water off 
a duck's back. Within the Potterverse, I think that Percy Weasley and Gilderoy 
Lockhart come close to this but are nowhere near as dangerous as Umbridge, 
and in the real world, I would nominate Richard Dawkins as one person who 
falls into this category.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 29 03:39:44 2012
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 03:39:44 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jij95a+rq5m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jik6m0+ju0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191850


> Nikkalmati: 
> > The character who scares me the most is Umbridge, because she is so completely believable, I;m sure she exists in RL, and because she has no doubts or self-awareness.

 
> Geoff:
> Interesting, because Umbridge doesn't scare me. She makes me so frustrated,
> wound up and flaming angry that I could cheerfully throttle her. I have on 
> occasion met people like her who are so assured that they are right and the 
> world should acknowledge this and revolve round them and I foster an extreme
> dislike because everything that is said contrary to their view is just water off 
> a duck's back. 

Annemehr:
This might make an interesting thread.  How many characters in the Potterverse are really assured that they are right?  How many times have we seen them really considering anyone else's point of view?  McGonagall?  Dumbledore?  Harry?  Hermione?  Luna?

The thing that might make Umbridge scary is that she has both the inclination and the power to force her point of view onto the lives of others.  Imagine if someone like this had authority over you.  Some of us, I'm sure, don't have to imagine too hard.

Geoff:
> Within the Potterverse, I think that Percy Weasley and Gilderoy 
> Lockhart come close to this but are nowhere near as dangerous as Umbridge, 
> and in the real world, I would nominate Richard Dawkins as one person who 
> falls into this category.


Annemehr:
Richard Dawkins?  Really?  No, he's nothing like Umbridge.






From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Tue Feb 28 14:35:00 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 06:35:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-DS21AD88D1203B175FC10F26D56E0@phx.gbl>
References: <jiet5g+slc6@eGroups.com> <SNT133-DS21AD88D1203B175FC10F26D56E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1330439700.15200.YahooMailNeo@web121304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191851

>> Nikkalmati
>> The character who scares me the most is Umbridge, because she is
>> so completely believable, I;m sure she exists in RL, and because
>> she has no doubts or self-awareness.

> Corey:
> Yeah, you have a good point. Rowling really made her a character
> that you wouldn't forget. She was definitely a dislikable character.

June:
I had not responded to this before now because I could not think of
an answer. I do agree that Umbridge is pretty scary only because
there are people like her in real life, but when I really think about
it, I think Bellatrix is the scariest because she is one crazy b--ch.




From YasminOaks at aol.com  Tue Feb 28 19:25:56 2012
From: YasminOaks at aol.com (YasminOaks at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:25:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jij95a+rq5m@eGroups.com>
References: <jij95a+rq5m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CEC465EDC566D5-A28-3DBA@webmail-m135.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191852

> > Corey:
> > No, I can't say there's a potter character that really scared me.
> > How about you. You're the one who brought up the topic after all.

> Nikkalmati:
> The character who scares me the most is Umbridge, because she is
> so completely believable, I;m sure she exists in RL, and because
> she has no doubts or self-awareness.

Cathy:
I think the character that scares me most would have to be Peter
Pettigrew, only as he was a well known and trusted, yet he betrayed
his best friends in such a way that would bring about their deaths.
(James, Lily, and baby Harry).  I find his actions to be the scariest
just as he seemed not only harmless, but a cherished and trusted
friend.


Sincerely,


Cathy




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 29 07:55:42 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 07:55:42 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jik6m0+ju0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jikllu+ak9k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191853

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:

Annemehr:
> The thing that might make Umbridge scary is that she has both the inclination and the  
> power to force her point of view onto the lives of others.  Imagine if someone like this 
> had authority over you.  Some of us, I'm sure, don't have to imagine too hard.

Geoff:
> > Within the Potterverse, I think that Percy Weasley and Gilderoy 
> > Lockhart come close to this but are nowhere near as dangerous as Umbridge, 
> > and in the real world, I would nominate Richard Dawkins as one person who 
> > falls into this category.

Annemehr:
> Richard Dawkins?  Really?  No, he's nothing like Umbridge.

Geoff:
Straying towards being OT, in my view, Dawkins fits your description 
of Umbridge in having the inclination to force his point of view and 
would like more control in that area; I see them both as extreme 
control freaks.

I did quote Lockhart and Percy W as coming within that description but 
not quite up to Umbridge's standard - but on reflection, Lockhart shows 
himself potentially to be a very dangerous man by his behaviour in the 
Chamber of Secrets; he was fully prepared to sacrifice Ginny and 
permanently damage Harry and Ron for his own ends.





From vsteck at gmail.com  Wed Feb 29 11:30:57 2012
From: vsteck at gmail.com (vanessa steck)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:30:57 -0500
Subject: Which HP character scares you most?
Message-ID: <CAFcnBz6csED=r2RUA16p+FCkr_9x4k9LBQ_=5nzJ4GyBRO7ijA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191854

Umbridge is so scary in part because she is supposed to be on Harry's
side--she is working for the Ministry, etc--but she is actually evil.

-- 
vanessa 



From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Feb 29 18:45:18 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:45:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <1330439700.15200.YahooMailNeo@web121304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <jiet5g+slc6@eGroups.com> <SNT133-DS21AD88D1203B175FC10F26D56E0@phx.gbl> <1330439700.15200.YahooMailNeo@web121304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F4E723E.8030501@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191855

June:
I had not responded to this before now because I could not think of an 
answer. I do agree that Umbridge is pretty scary only because there are 
people like her in real life, but when I really think about it, I think 
Bellatrix is the scariest because she is one crazy b--ch.

Bart:
I have expressed my belief that Morty has been portrayed as a sociopath; 
in terms of killing, he neither delights in it nor has any problem at 
all with doing it, as long as it serves his purpose. Along this vein, I 
see Trixie being portrayed as a psychopath, who actually gets pleasure 
from killing and torture.

     Bart



From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Feb 29 18:50:21 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:50:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jikllu+ak9k@eGroups.com>
References: <jikllu+ak9k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F4E736D.5050101@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191856

Geoff:
> I did quote Lockhart and Percy W as coming within that description but 
> not quite up to Umbridge's standard - but on reflection, Lockhart 
> shows himself potentially to be a very dangerous man by his behaviour 
> in the Chamber of Secrets; he was fully prepared to sacrifice Ginny 
> and permanently damage Harry and Ron for his own ends.

Bart:
     Smiley is probably a more typical sociopath than Morty. Not only 
does he have no qualms against the harm he does, he does not understand 
why people would take exception to it, although he is intellectually 
aware that people do. Unlike Morty, he does not seem to think too far 
ahead or stick to a plan (otherwise, he would never have taken the 
Hogwarts teaching position), which, once again is more typical for a 
sociopath.

     Bart




From technomad at intergate.com  Wed Feb 29 19:47:02 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:47:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <4F4E736D.5050101@moosewise.com>
References: <jikllu+ak9k@eGroups.com> <4F4E736D.5050101@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <20120229134702.8on5k0c20wc0gkoo@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191857

Quoting Bart Lidofsky <bart at moosewise.com>:

> Geoff:
>> I did quote Lockhart and Percy W as coming within that description but
>> not quite up to Umbridge's standard - but on reflection, Lockhart
>> shows himself potentially to be a very dangerous man by his behaviour
>> in the Chamber of Secrets; he was fully prepared to sacrifice Ginny
>> and permanently damage Harry and Ron for his own ends.
>
> Bart:
>      Smiley is probably a more typical sociopath than Morty. Not only
> does he have no qualms against the harm he does, he does not understand
> why people would take exception to it, although he is intellectually
> aware that people do. Unlike Morty, he does not seem to think too far
> ahead or stick to a plan (otherwise, he would never have taken the
> Hogwarts teaching position), which, once again is more typical for a
> sociopath.
>
>      Bart

In the hands of a different writer (JKR is wonderful, but she was  
still learning then) "Smiley" might have been an interestingly tragic  
character.  When Ron and Harry go looking for him after Ginny  
disappears, they find him writing out his will, and he confesses to  
them that he's a fraud and always has been.  Then, with a sigh, he  
signs his will, picks up his wand, and says "Time to man up and walk  
the walk...it'll be strange after talking the talk for so long."   
Basically, he's sure that he's going to his own death, but _he is the  
DADA prof,_ and even though he's sure it's a suicide run, he's not  
about to let one of his pupils down.

----------------------------------------------------------------
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From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Feb 29 20:01:39 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:01:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <20120229134702.8on5k0c20wc0gkoo@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <jikllu+ak9k@eGroups.com> <4F4E736D.5050101@moosewise.com> <20120229134702.8on5k0c20wc0gkoo@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <4F4E8423.4090204@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191858

Eric:
> In the hands of a different writer (JKR is wonderful, but she was 
> still learning then) "Smiley" might have been an interestingly tragic 
> character. When Ron and Harry go looking for him after Ginny 
> disappears, they find him writing out his will, and he confesses to 
> them that he's a fraud and always has been. Then, with a sigh, he 
> signs his will, picks up his wand, and says "Time to man up and walk 
> the walk...it'll be strange after talking the talk for so long." 
> Basically, he's sure that he's going to his own death, but _he is the 
> DADA prof,_ and even though he's sure it's a suicide run, he's not 
> about to let one of his pupils down.

Bart:
     I disagree. The way JKR paints the character, an act of 
self-sacrifice would never have even occurred to him. The idea was that, 
beneath the laughable fraud was a deadly, chilling and conscienceless 
villain, without changing his character one iota.

     Bart



From CatMcNulty at comcast.net  Wed Feb 29 18:48:47 2012
From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (catmcnulty)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:48:47 -0000
Subject: Betrayal is Scary Too! (Was: What HP Character Scares You Most?)
In-Reply-To: <8CEC465EDC566D5-A28-3DBA@webmail-m135.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <jilruf+53v0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191860

> Cathy:
> I think the character that scares me most would have to be Peter
> Pettigrew, only as he was a well known and trusted, yet he betrayed
> his best friends in such a way that would bring about their deaths.
> (James, Lily, and baby Harry).  I find his actions to be the scariest
> just as he seemed not only harmless, but a cherished and trusted
> friend.

Cat:

I agree with earlier posts, in that Umbridge is a real piece of work! And she is just plain maliciously cruel ... mean to her "lessors" or those who are weaker.  But she is so saccharine horrible that she is almost "cartoonie".  She is a sycophant extraordinaire and really "gets in the good books" of the people in power (unfortunately there are people really like that...I'm sure everyone has had at least one "umbridge" in their life.)You can hopefully see them coming and guard against them HOWEVER.....
People like Peter Pettigrew, you don't see them coming and they are more able to do REAL damage. I agree with Cathy - He is "scary" because he was a "friend" (frienemy - I think is the new term & not sure about the spelling) that betrayed his friends. As a "friend" he was trusted, cared about, was able to get close, discovered  weaknesses, and then exploited them. (It was done in cowardly fashion as opposed to malicious intent) When a friend betrays you, for either reason, it is more painful and possibly even fatal. (The "Et tu Brute" scenario.) In addition to the damage they inflict (hopefully you DO survive) is the hurt & self doubt that you are left with. "How was I ever so mislead? How gullible am I? What did I miss? etc.) BETRAYAL ... the most unkindness cut of all!

JKR gave us a hint (she likes to do that) into the truth of Peter's character when she had Dumbledore explain to Harry about the Hogwarts student Tom Riddle's "gang" (the fore-runners of the Deatheaters). They were described as (paraphrased) "ones who sought protection" and "were seeking reflected glory."  This is applies to the "Deatheaters" but also Peter as toady to James and Sirius.

Cat




From lynde4 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 29 19:24:07 2012
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:24:07 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which HP character scares you most?
In-Reply-To: <CAFcnBz6csED=r2RUA16p+FCkr_9x4k9LBQ_=5nzJ4GyBRO7ijA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFcnBz6csED=r2RUA16p+FCkr_9x4k9LBQ_=5nzJ4GyBRO7ijA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iNLDT=Aa75Fzu7Sw3eYiKT4WjYYQSTRgH4vB=DtFN7v2A@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191861

Umbridge is scary because there are real people who are almost exactly like
her and too many people do not have the resources to stand up to her, much
less stand against her.

Lynda




From keenefx at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 29 23:17:48 2012
From: keenefx at yahoo.com (keenefx at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:17:48 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jij95a+rq5m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jimbms+10acf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191862

Umbridge, but not so much fear as utter repulsion.  I still remember an Algebra teacher from high school that was Umbridge incarnate.  I would also choose Umbridge for her blind, pathologic devotion to control and a so called lofty goal.

keenefx



From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Wed Feb 29 14:50:54 2012
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (?????alabio???)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:50:54 +0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <1330510017.805.67463.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1330510017.805.67463.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <0C068220-CEEE-45F4-B962-528A827CE29D@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191863

> Geoff:
> Professor Richard Dawkins

Walabio:
	I did not respond to this thread because it would be the Dark Lord for all of the evil he does, Professor Snape for bullying his students, and Umbridge for torturing students and the crimes against the muggle-borns.  In other words, my list would be the same 3 as everyone else.

	Now we get into the absurd:

	Professor Richard Dawkins is not a character in HP and is not scary at all.  The scary people are the flat/young-Earth geocentric creationists, also known as CDesign Proponentsists, trying to ruin education and the religious bigots harassing nonbelievers.