[HPforGrownups] Re: The Overarching message - Caning

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 191646

One of my new years resolutions is to try and be more active in the 
internet communities I'm part of, and looking in on HPFGU, I find a 
thread that I feel is tailor made for my comments.

On 1/01/2012 9:43 AM, James Lyon wrote:
> Oh, please! Do you REALLY think mind raping Harry over and over was
> actually a way to TEACH.

James, I think you are overstating the case. You've obviously got strong 
views about this and that's fair enough but I hope you understand that 
this is a subject that has been discussed many, many times, over the 
years on HPFGU and a lot of people here have been involved in that 
discussion many many times. And some of us do have different opinions on 
this issue than others and some of us believe we have very good reasons 
for those opinions.

Before I continue let me just outline where I'm coming from, personally, 
because it is important to my position.

(1) I am a teacher - a qualified and active teacher.
(2) I am an educational researcher and considered a minor expert in the 
field of educational theory. I've written part of a published book on 
education, a number of articles in educational journals, and I am a 
current educational researcher at a university. My specialties in terms 
of research are bullying, gifted education, and gender differentiation 
in education.
(3) I was educated at an Australian school that was (and still is) a 
deliberate copy of the most traditional type of British school. It was a 
boarding school, it was very much based on the traditional British 
'Public School' model which is also quite clearly the model that JKR 
used as part of her basis for Hogwarts. It is quite a different 
environment from the typical, modern, idea of education. It's generally 
regarded by those associated with it as an extremely good model, but 
that is quite controversial.
(4) I now teach at such a school.
(5) I had a very mixed experience in terms of my own education - besides 
the school I mention above, I attended another six schools including 
much more 'average' and 'typical' schools, and much more modern schools. 
Most of my schooling was pretty miserable - especially that in 'modern' 
environments.

And having said that, let me answer the first question you've asked by 
saying that I do consider Snape's methods to 'actually (be) a way to 
TEACH'. It is *one* way to teach. Not the only way. Just one way. And I 
believe it's a valid way. There is no such thing in teaching as a single 
right way to teach. There are some approaches that are more valid than 
others, but whether or not a method is valid or not, often depends 
specifically on the child or children you are teaching. What we see with 
Snape is pretty similar to a method of teaching that used to be quite 
commonplace. The authoritarian, stentorian, strict teacher archetype. 
It's an approach that is often frowned upon in modern education but that 
doesn't make it a bad approach just an unfashionable one.

Now, it's important for me to say here that I would not approve of 'mind 
rape' but I do not believe that is a reasonable or accurate description 
of the way Snape teaches. I think it's an unduly emotional exaggeration 
of his approach to teaching. Now that is just my opinion - albeit one I 
would consider to be an informed opinion - but I, and others who might 
agree with me, are just as entitled to our opinions as you are, and you 
should not expect us to automatically agree with the way you see things. 
Put simply - I don't.

I had teachers who were similar to Snape in their approach and their 
methods. Two of them in particular. Did I like being in their classes? 
No, I did not, really. But that wasn't because they weren't effective 
teachers. Both of them were. Both of them were excellent teachers, in 
fact. Their students achieved extremely good results. They were 
challenged to achieve extremely good results. They were required to do 
so or things became very unpleasant. They were good teachers. They 
weren't enjoyable teachers, nor fun teachers, not particularly pleasant 
teachers. But they were effective teachers.

> How about I yell at you ready and smash your head with a 2x4. Is this the
> best way to learn to duck or hit back?

There's nothing inherently wrong with raising your voice to a student, 
although again, it's unfashionable nowadays. But especially if you are 
dealing with a student who is misbehaving or not paying attention it can 
be effective, and it's not always the wrong approach. Smashing 
somebody's head in with a 2x4 on the other hand would always be 
inappropriate, but show me where Snape did anything like that.

> Have you read the books and actually considered if Harry was your child?

Actually, I've read the books and considered if Harry was *me*. I 
learned well from teachers like Snape. I didn't learn well from touchy 
feely modern methods based around ideas that teachers need to be big 
fluffy teddy bear types. That doesn't mean I reject those methods 
because they are methods that work for some kids and they are as 
entitled to get the education they need as kids like I was were. But 
we're entitled to.

And, frankly, most of the kids at Hogwarts don't seem like kids who need 
gentle handling. Which is a good thing because virtually none of the 
teachers give them anything like it. You focus on Snape but I'd suggest 
you take a look at McGonnagall and her reaction to Neville when he is 
discovered to have written the passwords down that allowed Sirius Black 
to gain access to the Gryffindor tower.

She verbally tears into Neville in a way that must cause him significant 
distress. This is what happens at Hogwarts if you misbehave, if you 
break the rules, if you don't measure up.  It's something that the kids 
are expected to deal with. They are not treated gently. Should they be?

If Neville had been treated with kid gloves and delicate handling, would 
have become the man he becomes - the hero he becomes? His nature emerges 
through the books and nobody would dare to call the Neville of Book 7 
weak. Anything but. He seemed so when he was younger - but that either 
means that who he was was hidden from casual sight, and if that's the 
case then allowing surface appearances to guide how he's treated 
wouldn't have helped him much at all. Or he was actually that way - and 
he's strengthened and changed by the teaching he receives at Hogwarts 
and it makes into a better person. A person he deserves to be.

> Caning Harry for a real infraction would be fine with me.
> Taunting and insulting a student and their parents in the class room, to
> me, is abuse.

Well, speaking as somebody who was the victim of real abuse by teachers, 
I would say that I don't think what we see from Snape comes close. But, 
having said that, I don't actually think Snape is a good teacher - for 
Harry, specifically. Snape has a personal, totally unprofessional, 
grudge against Harry. That makes him far from an ideal teacher for Harry 
and I don't believe he teaches Harry appropriately in class. I think he 
comes a little closer in their one on one occlumency classes where 
there's a bit more understanding between them - until Harry blows it - 
but in the potions classes, I don't think Snape is a good teacher for 
Harry. But Harry is *one* child in a class of at least ten and the 
reason Snape doesn't teach him well is personal and specifically 
targeted at Harry. It doesn't apply with any other student and can't be 
viewed as a reason for considering him a bad teacher overall.

I've had one student I couldn't teach effectively. That wasn't my fault 
- I can't go into too much detail because it would be unprofessional to 
discuss a real students personal issues, but she had issues in her past 
that meant she could not trust a male teacher. I'd have done everything 
I could to try and teach her, but it just wouldn't have worked. 
Fortunately, I was in a school that was large enough to have multiple 
teachers available so she didn't have to be in my class - but Hogwarts 
doesn't seem to be a school where that is possible. There is only one 
Potions Master. If he's teaching most of the class effectively, he's a 
good teacher in my view even if there's an occasional student, he's not 
effective with. Harry is such a case. Snape's issues with his parents 
means Snape can't teach him - but Snape doesn't have those issues with 
any other students we see.

Even so, Harry does quite well in Snape's classes from all we can see. 
Even with these problems.

> Do we have evidence that any other teacher used the same teaching methods,
> thus justifying them as typical of wizarding methods? Was any other
> teacher, who was a DE, made head of house before their 30th birthday and
> given carte blanche to teach, without reviewing his methods after each and
> every complaint?

Well, as far as we know no other teachers were Death Easters. Nor do we 
seem to know how old the other Heads of Houses were before they took up 
their positions. But it does seem that it is normal for a teacher at 
Hogwarts to be given carte blanche to teach without inspection or 
review. The only cases we hear of where a teacher was reviewed were 
actually the results of Death Eater intervention - Hagrid was 
investigated only at the insistence of Lucius Malfoy. And Umbridge 
inspected everyone. And Snape was was not one of the teachers she 
targeted as flawed (not that I think Umbridge is a good judge, I'm just 
pointing out that a review process doesn't mean much).

> Just ask yourself if you were Harry or his parent, what would you think of
> his teaching methods.

A lot of it would depend on the results he was achieving.

> Again, don't whine about caning since caning is NOT part of the school
> disciplinary method.
> Compared to any other teacher, Snape is crap, Snape abuses his power,
> Snape causes accidents by hovering over students and NOT correcting them
> (this punishing Harry for NOT catching the error some other student made).

Snape causes accidents by hovering over students and not correcting 
them? I think that particular charge is unsustainable.

We see Snape correcting students mistakes - particularly Neville's - 
quite clearly in the text.

"'Idiot boy!' snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away with one 
wave of his wand. 'I suppose you added the porcupine quills before 
taking the cauldron off the fire?'"

and

"'Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull of 
yours? Didn't you hear me say, quite clearly, that only one rat spleen 
was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech juice would 
suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?'"

He corrects their mistakes. Gives them clear and unambiguous information 
about what they did wrong.

I see Snape as a decent teacher. Not a perfect teacher. But I'll defend 
him as a decent one.

Shaun Hately

Shaun