Occlumency

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 191699



Shaun:
> Bear in mind that if Legilemency really did allow you to read somebody's 
> mind, would the Wizarding World have so many cases where innocent people 
> are locked up in Azkaban, and guilty people are able to lie their way 
> out of it?

Pippin:
JKR answered this question with regard to veritaserum. She said there were so many ways to defeat it that it was considered too unreliable. She listed some of the ways, but I only remember for sure that it could be transfigured into something else before it was swallowed.

. Barty Jr was caught off guard and dosed before he could invoke a defense. But Snape says there are many legal safeguards against the use of veritaserum. It seems that in a formal proceeding, Barty would have known it was going to be used and could have prepared himself. 

We know that even a relatively weak wizard such as Draco can defend himself from Legilimency. Harry's inability to do so by conventional means was, according to JKR, the result of damage caused by  his treatment at the Dursleys. 

In any case, most of the wizards who got off claimed they had been under the Imperius Curse. It seems clear that legilimency cannot detect either the curse itself or the veracity of someone who claims to have been under it -- at least I can't recall any examples from canon. 


> 
> Shaun:
> 
> I would want to see some evidence that children in the Wizarding World 
> can consent to things in a way children in the real world can't, and 
> historically were even less limited in what they were able to do. I can 
> only see evidence they don't have that right until they are 17.


Pippin:
The policy seems to have changed over time. The original rules of the Tri-wizard tournament allowed any student to compete. Limiting entry to those who were of age was an innovation agreed to "this year" by the heads of the schools and the Ministry of Magic.
Thus the need for Dumbledore's age line. But once Harry's name comes out of the goblet, he is bound by the magical contract, which is apparently unable to invalidate itself even if there is evidence of  outright fraud, never mind lack of consent. 


There's also Dumbledore's visit to Riddle's orphanage. Mrs. Cole is asked for her consent for Tom to attend the school, but it's hardly informed consent, and there's indication that getting her consent is a matter of convenience rather than necessity. She is not told that Tom is a wizard, or that the strange things he can do are magic. Her desire to ask inconveniently shrewd questions is magicked away. 

It's disturbing to think that all Muggle parents at this time might have been treated the same way. Dumbledore says gravely that Tom has a place at his school and nothing Mrs. Cole can say can change that. Presumably even if she said "no". 

Dumbledore doesn't use magic to get Mrs Cole to talk, he uses gin -- presumably it's real gin since we're told that wizards can't conjure food and this would be before Dumbledore had the Elder Wand.

Tom on the other hand, is told that he can decide whether or not to attend Hogwarts, and if he does not, no one will force him. So in the case where Mrs. Cole wanted him to go but Tom didn't, Tom would prevail.  But Tom is told that all new wizards consent, in entering the wizarding world, to abide by its laws. 

By Dumbledore's headship,  Muggle parents are routinely told about their child's abilities but it's still, from what Hagrid says, likely that no Muggle would be allowed to forbid their child to attend. 

I'd guess  that up until Dumbledore became headmaster, wizard children were treated as miniature adults and Muggles as chattels of the Ministry. Things have changed slightly by Harry's time. Muggle parents have gained some limited rights, and wizard children have fewer rights but more protection, which is not always appreciated by the children themselves.

It doesn't occur to Hermione that the students she signs up for the DA can't or shouldn't give valid consent to a contract, nor does she feel any compunction about not informing them that they're also agreeing to be cursed if they violate it.

Pippin