From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  1 09:58:37 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:58:37 -0000
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <jsgjpk+sctd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jsp70d+9a7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192179

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

Alla:
> 
> I did not think any death was gratuitous, if nothing else but to show the randomness of people dying in wars. Could she make this point with fewer deaths? Of course. But to me that does not mean that it was gratuitous if that makes sense.

Geoff:
Being away from home in the Isles of Scilly and only
visiting the public computer room every two or three 
days means I'm a bit behind on this one but I would 
agree copletely with Alla that JKR on this point only 
echoes the real world in the deaths we have been 
thinking about.

In the US and UK certainly, we see our military folk
frequently being killed in Afghanistan and events in 
Syria only underline that gratuitous and random killing
are very much with us today.




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 22:58:10 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 22:58:10 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <jsdp24+vf8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jst922+l4ba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192180

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Charla Mason" <vikingwoman at ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Group,
> I have read the books and watched the movies many times..  And for
> the most part I think the movies captured the books very well except
> the last movie.
> 
> In the books Harry repaired his broken wand and restored the elder
> wand with Dumbledore.
> 
> Why in the movie did they have Harry break the Elder wand and throw
> it away??
> 
> ...
> 
>     Charla

bboyminn:

I have no problem with Harry not keeping the Elder Wand, it was the right and noble thing to do. What I have a problem with is Harry not using the Elder Wand to restore his own Phoenix Feather Wand. 

In the book that made sense, Wizard develop a kinship with their wands, it becomes a natural part of them. We see how devastated Harry was when is Phoenix Wand broke.  

In that last scene on the bridge, it would have only take a second to pull his own wand from his pocket and repair it then break the Elder Wand and dispose of it. 

In the books, the Elder Wand was restored to Dumbledore's tomb, or so it would seem, but Voldemort had no trouble breaking into Dumbledore's tomb, and even with enhance security, it could be broken into again. Though very few people actually know that Dumbledore's wand was indeed the Elder Wand, though any astute person would have probably suspected it. 

So, I thought Harry should have used his own wand to pulverize or somehow magically break the Elder Wand before returning it to Dumbledore's tomb. Once magically broken, it would have been next to impossible to restore the Elder Wand to its true former power. 

Off on a tangent, I was considering writing a fan fiction in which, through a complex series of circumstance, Harry and Ron decide to write a series of books chronicling their adventures at Hogwarts. But not being good writes, they manage to find a muggle Ghost Writer who happens to have a cousin who is a wizard. The Ghost Writer's name would be "J.K. ... oh just call me Jo, everyone does". And of course the series of 7 books chronicling each year at Hogwarts become both Muggle and Wizard best seller. 

Why bring this up, as it seems unrelated to the subject at hand? Well it force me to consider what Harry and Ron would say about the Elder Wand. Would they lie about what they had done with it, or would they tell the truth, and accept the consequences of everyone knowing Dumbledore' Tomb contain the most powerful wand every made. Or would they come up with a half-truth/half-lie version of event. So, I have given this some thought. I think in the end, I was leaning toward half-truth/half-lie. 

PS: re: this unwritten story. I just thought is was a fun idea in an alternate universe, if it had actually been Harry/Ron/Hermione who wrote the books, but that they used J.K.Rowling as a front person/author for the books in the Muggle world. 

Again, having it become known by even a small group of people would put Dumbledore's Tomb and the Elder Wand at risk. So, I don't see this as a very satisfying disposition in the books, and I find the Movie version even less satisfying in that it did not deal with Harry's original Phoenix Wand.

So, in the movies and books, I'm satisifed that Harry did not keep the Elder Wand, but I did not I find the books satisfying in simply placing the fully functional Elder Wand in Dumbledore's Tomb. 

I did like the movies in that Harry destroyed the Elder Wand, though I felt it should have been done magically to assure it could never be restored, and throwing it into that deep gorge seems satisfactory. Very very unlikely that anyone could have found both pieces, so it seems a reasonably safe. 

So, I can find things to criticize in both versions. 

Steve/bboyminn






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 23:21:51 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 23:21:51 -0000
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jstaef+lmpu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192181



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Another post made me think about a general question for discussion: the 
> many deaths in the Harry Potter series, onstage and offstage.
> 
> Doing this with numbered questions (like the listelves)....
> 
> 1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character,...
> 

bboyminn:

I don't think it is that JKR get US to care about various characters, I think it is that she gets Harry to care. If Harry cares, then we care, and when the character dies, we feel a sense of loss in sympathy with Harry. 

I thought early on that Hedwig might die, and I feared that would be devastating to both myself and Harry. But, it happened so quick and among so many other distractions, that there wasn't time to care about the loss of Hedwig. 

Certainly, the books did a great job with Dobby's death. That was a very heart wrenching scene. The movies moved through too quickly and with poor directing for my taste. 

> 2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on
> .... Some were a little more subtle. What were some of the deaths
> you considered to be necessary for the story...?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Fred's death was devastating to everyone in the story, and as such equally devastating for me. My heart really ached for the character having to experience that loss. But, that said, I can understand it. War is hell, people die, even good people die. Was does not discriminate. So, I feel this was a horrible death and a waste in the context of war, but I also feel it was a necessary death. 

I think he considered killing Mr. Weasley, but changed her mind. I don't think she originally intended to kill Fred, but it became necessary to convey the emotional impact of war. 

I don't think JRK wasted lives, I think all who died needed to die for the story. Dumbledore, Sirius, and Remus needed to die to leave Harry alone and on his own. Snape needed to die in order to reveal important truth to Harry. Dobby and Fred for shear emotional impact. 

But, it is important who lived as well. The Weasley family are mostly intact and are able to take on the role of Harry'serogate family, until such time as Harry actually becomes family by marrying Ginny. I think that was a wise and necessary choice. 

I also think Hagrid living was important, though a great many fear he might die. 

> 3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the
> deaths were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that 
> JKR went overboard in some cases, killing characters just for 
> the sake of adding to the death tolls. Which character's death 
> do you consider to be the most gratuitous....
> 

bboyminn:

I don't see any truly gratuitous deaths, though the story could have played out fine either way had Remus/Tonks died or not died. But JKR was going for a contrast. Harry's parents died in his generation, and his life was not that good as a result of it. In the next generation, we have another orphan whose parent have died. Harry survives his upbringing because he is TREMENDOUSLY RESILIENT. Teddy Lupin, who unlike Harry, has a tremendous support network allowing him to grow up happy and health. While Harry is pretty well adjusted, I think there will always be a small cloud of darkness hanging over him as a result of his upbringing and the trauma of his years at Hogwarts. Teddy, thanks in part to Harry, will have no such cloud. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn




From vikingwoman at shaw.ca  Mon Jul  2 23:39:39 2012
From: vikingwoman at shaw.ca (Charla Mason)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 16:39:39 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <jst922+l4ba@eGroups.com>
References: <jsdp24+vf8f@eGroups.com> <jst922+l4ba@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7667476ADFFD4BFEBBE34E0C01BE2CD2@CHARLADESKTOP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192182

> bboyminn:
> 
> I have no problem with Harry not keeping the Elder Wand, it was 
> the right and noble thing to do. What I have a problem with is 
> Harry not using the Elder Wand to restore his own Phoenix Feather 
> Wand. <snip>
>
> In the books, the Elder Wand was restored to Dumbledore's tomb, 
> or so it would seem, but Voldemort had no trouble breaking into 
> Dumbledore's tomb, and even with enhance security, it could be 
> broken into again. Though very few people actually know that 
> Dumbledore's wand was indeed the Elder Wand, though any astute 
> person would have probably suspected it. 
>
> So, I thought Harry should have used his own wand to pulverize 
> or somehow magically break the Elder Wand before returning it to 
> Dumbledore's tomb. Once magically broken, it would have been next 
> to impossible to restore the Elder Wand to its true former power. 
> <snip>
>
> So, in the movies and books, I'm satisifed that Harry did not keep 
> the Elder Wand, but I did not I find the books satisfying in simply 
> placing the fully functional Elder Wand in Dumbledore's Tomb. 
> 
> I did like the movies in that Harry destroyed the Elder Wand, 
> though I felt it should have been done magically to assure it 
> could never be restored, and throwing it into that deep gorge 
> seems satisfactory. Very very unlikely that anyone could have 
> found both pieces, so it seems a reasonably safe. 
> 
> So, I can find things to criticize in both versions. 


Charla:
Hi Steve, 

The one thing that you did not address was that even if the Elder 
wand was taken from Dumbledore's tomb it would not serve them as 
Harry would be the only one it would be loyal to. I am glad you 
agree that Harry should have repaired his  wand in the movie. 
Having all the hallows (cloak, resurrection stone, and Elder wand) 
remain as Jo did I think is good..

What about all the department of Mystery things; should all those 
things be destroyed just because it would make a safer world?   
 
Hehe, I like your thought the J.K. Rowling being a front person.  

 
Charla

 





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  3 19:30:50 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:30:50 -0000
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FECC1D6.6010407@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jsvh9a+s90b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192183

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 6/28/2012 1:44 PM, Scott Smith wrote:
> > One thing that bothered me was the lack of Weasleys (except 
> > George, or was it Fred... I can never keep them straight) dying. ...
>
> Bart:
> ... Because, although we grew to care about Fred and George, I
> cannot recall a single thing in canon that would enable us to 
> differentiate between them. I have known a number of identical 
> twins in my life, and, no matter how friendly they were with 
> each other, they were all sufficiently different in personality 
> that there was never a real problem telling the difference. ...
> 
> Bart
>

Steve:

I'm inclined to agree with Shaun on this one. I have a view of people that I call 'The Theory of Light and Shadows'. "Light" are dynamic charismatic outgoing people. The "Shadow" people are more introspective and thoughtful. They have a complex internal landscape. At the extremes "Shadows" become self-destructive, and the "Light" become total air-heads. And of course, the Light and Shadows are not absolute, but a spectrum, it is possible to be 50% Light and 50% Shadow. 

Fred leaned toward the side of the Light, he was the more outgoing person of the pair. George leaned toward the Shadows, he was less outgoing and more introspective, which made Fred's death all the more traumatic for George. The event is going to haunt George for the rest of his life, while he will be able to file it away in time, thoughts about this event and loss will never stop haunting him.

I think Fred was better equipped to lose George than George was to lose Fred, and in that, JKR made the right choice. She made the most loved character die, and left the most devastated character behind to morn that death. 

I think Fred and George are distinct, and I think that clearly come through in the stories. So, far we seem to have a consensus that indeed Fred was the more outgoing; he was brighter and "lighter". George was more of a "shadow", more introspective and thoughtful. 

Just one man's opinion.

Steve/bluewizard





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  3 19:48:57 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:48:57 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <7667476ADFFD4BFEBBE34E0C01BE2CD2@CHARLADESKTOP>
Message-ID: <jsvib9+odbl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192184



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Charla Mason" <vikingwoman at ...> wrote:
>
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > I have no problem with Harry not keeping the Elder Wand, it was 
> > the right and noble thing to do. What I have a problem with is 
> > Harry not using the Elder Wand to restore his own Phoenix Feather 
> > Wand. <snip>
> >
> > In the books, the Elder Wand was restored to Dumbledore's tomb, 
> > or so it would seem, but Voldemort had no trouble breaking into 
> > Dumbledore's tomb, and even with enhance security, it could be 
> > broken into again. ...
> >
> > So, I thought Harry should have used his own wand to pulverize 
> > or somehow magically break the Elder Wand before returning it to 
> > Dumbledore's tomb. ...
> > 
> > So, I can find things to criticize in both versions. 
> 
> 
> Charla:
> Hi Steve, 
> 
> ... I am glad you  agree that Harry should have repaired his wand
> in the movie. Having all the hallows (cloak, resurrection stone,
> and Elder wand) remain as Jo did I think is good..
> 
> What about all the department of Mystery things; should all those 
> things be destroyed just because it would make a safer world?   
>  
> Hehe, I like your thought the J.K. Rowling being a front person.  
> 
>  
> Charla
>


Steve:

I can understand the desire to keep all the Hallows in tact, but the Elder Wand is probably the most dangerous of them all. Even if you are not its Master, it is still a powerful wand. And Harry is assuming, despite becoming an Auror, that he will never be defeated or killed. That seems an unlikely assumption, though perhaps youthful optimism can be blamed. He became the Master of Draco's Wand simply by taking it away from him. So, the transfer of Loyalty is not that difficult.

Now, the decide the disposition of the Elder Wand with only a very limited number of witnesses. So, the knowledge of the location of the Elder Wand would not be common knowledge. However, Harry/Ron/Hermione worked it out. It is a well known historical sequence of events, and other people could come to the same conclusion, that Dumbledore won the wand from Grindelwald, then Draco won it, then Harry won if from Draco. 

Although the path from Dumbledore to Draco to Harry is probably the most unclear to the wizard population. However, in the final duel, in front of students, wizard and witches dark and light, Harry explains the transfer of the wands power to Voldemort. I'm sure many, even though they heard, didn't really understand, but that information could get out. 

That the wand was returned to Dumbledore would not be common knowledge, so for the average villain, this would not be clear, but to a clever villain it could be worked out. 

I just thought it left open the possibility of the Elder Wand being recovered, a possibility they would certainly want to avoid if they could. 

Steve/bboyminn




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jul  3 21:51:20 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:51:20 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <jsvib9+odbl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jsvpgo+s8mc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192185


> Steve:
> 
> I can understand the desire to keep all the Hallows in tact, but the Elder Wand is probably the most dangerous of them all. Even if you are not its Master, it is still a powerful wand. 

Pippin:
It was a powerful wand for Voldemort because he was such a powerful wizard. But he got no more power from it than he had from his own wand, and I believe this would be true with any other wizard who possessed the Elder wand but did not properly own it.

Its special powers are only available to its true owner -- even a wizard as powerful as Voldemort cannot force it to work for him as it should.

Steve:
And Harry is assuming, despite becoming an Auror, that he will never be defeated or killed. That seems an unlikely assumption, though perhaps youthful optimism can be blamed. He became the Master of Draco's Wand simply by taking it away from him. So, the transfer of Loyalty is not that difficult.
> 

Pippin:

It won't matter if Harry is killed or loses his wand, as long as he does not allow it to happen against his will. 

In any case, Hogwarts is still one of the best defended fortresses in the WW,  and only the Trio and the portraits will know that the wand is in Dumbledore's tomb.  If  Harry is concerned that the knowledge could be forced or tricked from them, he can use the Fidelius charm.

Anyway, I think Harry feels the danger of another Voldemort arising in his lifetime is less of a threat  than the damage he and his friends might do if the WW were defenseless against their good intentions. 

Pippin






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jul  3 22:17:12 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:17:12 -0000
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEE0EA2.2080400@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <jsvr18+3pl8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192186



-- 
> Dave:
> I agree.  In general, I was very disappointed in the direction JKR went 
> with Tonks -- She started out as a sprightly, somewhat sassy, 
> "Moliere-Maid" type, which I loved.  But then she made Tonks into this 
> tragic character whose intense (perhaps codependent) love for Remus 
> trumped everything.  And we know from interviews that killing off Remus 
> and Tonks was an eleventh-hour decision on JKR's part, in order to make 
> some trivial contrast between Harry and Teddy which, as Sherry points 
> out, has little or no impact on the reader.
>=

Pippin:
The Moliere-Maid is a stock character, and so is the lovesick lass -- but Tonks is both, which is surprising.  She doesn't let her heartbreak over Lupin  keep her from doing her job. She loses her metamorphmagus power for a while, but that allows JKR to show us that Tonks has all the skill she needs to be an auror and isn't relying on her freak talent alone. 

Also, her drippy dependency is the counterpoint to Fleur's flashy egotism, and just as with Fleur, the fact that most people would find it objectionable doesn't seem to matter to the men in question. I think for Lupin, who has struggled all his life with his sense of inadequacy, it was refreshing not to be the needier party for once. JKR is  good at showing when people are put off by clinginess, and I don't read that from Lupin, only a concern that Tonks will find him a burden in the end.  

As for Teddy, it isn't that losing your parents isn't necessarily a disaster -- of course it is. But being raised by other people doesn't have to be. I'm sure JKR heard from many children whose home lives were as bleak as Harry's.  JKR wouldn't want to leave those readers with the idea that they shouldn't expect any better.

But I think for the average reader the point is not to put yourself in the place of Teddy but to put Harry in the place of Sirius. As he journeys into the forest, Harry realizes that he is proving to be as reckless a godfather to Teddy as Sirius was to him.  I don't think Harry realized before then that reckless or not, Sirius  did what he had to do to protect Harry, and whether Harry would rather have had it otherwise was beside the point.

Pippin











From vikingwoman at shaw.ca  Wed Jul  4 13:02:09 2012
From: vikingwoman at shaw.ca (Charla Mason)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 06:02:09 -0700
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <jsvpgo+s8mc@eGroups.com>
References: <jsvib9+odbl@eGroups.com> <jsvpgo+s8mc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AEDCA10B319E45469200F047E9284B50@CHARLADESKTOP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192187

<snip>
>> Steve:
>> And Harry is assuming, despite becoming an Auror, that he will 
never be defeated or killed. That seems an unlikely assumption, 
though perhaps youthful optimism can be blamed. He became the 
Master of Draco's Wand simply by taking it away from him. So, the 
>> transfer of Loyalty is not that difficult.

> Pippin:
> It won't matter if Harry is killed or loses his wand, as long 
as he does not allow it to happen against his will. 

> In any case, Hogwarts is still one of the best defended fortresses 
in the WW, and only the Trio and the portraits will know that the 
wand is in Dumbledore's tomb. If Harry is concerned that the 
knowledge could be forced or tricked from them, he can use the 
> Fidelius charm.

> Anyway, I think Harry feels the danger of another Voldemort 
arising in his lifetime is less of a threat than the damage he and 
his friends might do if the WW were defenseless against their good 
> intentions. 


Charla:

This seems to me more of muggles (us) putting an application of a 
nanny state to the WW.  Is not this choice of good or evil what 
has made the WW so appealing to so many readers?  How interesting 
would the Trio's adventures be without such dangers, eg. the Elder 
wand?

 

Charla

 



From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jul  5 00:46:39 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 20:46:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <jsvh9a+s90b@eGroups.com>
References: <jsvh9a+s90b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4FF4E3EF.5090402@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192188

On 7/3/2012 3:30 PM, Steve wrote:
> I'm inclined to agree with Shaun on this one. I have a view of people 
> that I call 'The Theory of Light and Shadows'. "Light" are dynamic 
> charismatic outgoing people. The "Shadow" people are more 
> introspective and thoughtful. They have a complex internal landscape. 
> At the extremes "Shadows" become self-destructive, and the "Light" 
> become total air-heads. And of course, the Light and Shadows are not 
> absolute, but a spectrum, it is possible to be 50% Light and 50% Shadow.

Bart:

Consider the somewhat controversial, albeit heavily used, Myers-Briggs 
Personality types:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator

Bart



From Puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Jul  8 21:05:56 2012
From: Puduhepa98 at aol.com (Nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 21:05:56 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 13:  Mad-Eye Moody
Message-ID: <jtcsnk+8cjt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192189

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Chapter 13 : Goblet of Fire, Mad-Eye Moody
The students get their schedules in the morning. Ron and Harry have Herbology
and Care of Magical Creatures in the morning and Divination in the afternoon. 
Hermione has decided to give up her hunger strike for elf rights in favor of
other methods to be named later. Harry is worried because he has not heard from
Sirius. The students extract Bubotuber pus in Herbology (later sent to Hermione
in a nasty letter causing her to go to the hospital wing). In CMC Hagrid
introduces them to the Blast-Ended Skrewts, another kind of dangerous creature. 
Hermione does not have Divination but heads for the library. Professor
Trelawney greets Harry with more gloomy predictions and even asks him if he was
born in midwinter (someone suggested on this list that she was confusing him
with LV because of the Horcrux). After class, Malfoy has a copy of the Daily
Prophet with a Skeeter article criticizing Arnold (i.e. Arthur) Weasley. He and
the boys get into an argument and Malfoy tries to curse Harry from behind. 
Mad-Eye catches him and turns him into a white ferret. He taunts Draco while
bouncing him up and down on the floor. McGonagall stops Mad-Eye and Mad-Eye
takes Draco to Snape (with whom he wants to have a chat). At dinner, Hermione
says she is going back to the library and Fred and George gleefully tell Ron and
Harry how wonderful Mad-Eye is as a teacher of Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Questions:

1. Do you think JKR was poking fun through Hermione at people who rush to the
defense of those they consider victims without considering the feelings of the
so-called victims or was she trying to make a point about treating everyone
fairly?

2. Crouch, Jr. was behaving in a way that would convince the faculty and DD
that he was Mad-Eye., so did he attack Draco because it was something Mad-Eye
would do or was he angry at the Malfoys in general?

3. Why did Draco become a ferret? Would that be his Animagus form or did
Mad-Eye make that choice?

4. What do you think really happened at Mad-Eye's house with the Muggle
policemen that required modification of their memories? Is Arthur authorized to
do that?



5. Did you have any ideas about what Hermione was doing in the library?
Nikkalmati
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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If you would like to volunteer to lead a chapter discussion, please drop a note
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From thedossetts at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 02:35:36 2012
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 02:35:36 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 13:  Mad-Eye Moody
In-Reply-To: <jtcsnk+8cjt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jtdg1o+fs4p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192190




> Questions:
> 
> 1. Do you think JKR was poking fun through Hermione at people who rush to the
> defense of those they consider victims without considering the feelings of the
> so-called victims or was she trying to make a point about treating everyone
> fairly?

Never thought about JKR's motivation here before! I always just considered it from Hermione's point of view - she was being a "do-gooder", and (as we see later) trying to force the elves to act in a manner that she considered appropriate rather than seeing things from their point of view. Now that you've asked - I think she's rather poking fun at Hermione-type people in the world. After all, JKR did her time as a welfare mom and I'm sure she ran into a few do-gooders in her time. But that's JMO.

> 
> 2. Crouch, Jr. was behaving in a way that would convince the faculty and DD
> that he was Mad-Eye., so did he attack Draco because it was something Mad-Eye
> would do or was he angry at the Malfoys in general?

Now this one I've thought about before! My assumption has always been that Mad-Eye was serious when he said that he really couldn't stand any Death Eater that went free, and Lucius was definitely in that category. So he took out his frustrations with the father on the son. 

> 
> 3. Why did Draco become a ferret? Would that be his Animagus form or did
> Mad-Eye make that choice?

Again, just my opinion here, but since it was a white ferret, and Malfoy's hair was white, I always felt that this was probably his animagus form (or his Patronus, take your pick.)

> 
> 4. What do you think really happened at Mad-Eye's house with the Muggle
> policemen that required modification of their memories? Is Arthur authorized to
> do that?

My take on this is that LV, Crouch Jr., and Wormtail went to Mad-Eye's house and caused the disturbance to purposely get Mad-Eye to react in the way that he did. Before the Muggle police arrived, they subdued him and Crouch Jr. drank the Polyjuice Potion and started on his nearly year-long adventure of playing Mad-Eye Moody. Or conversely, they subdued Moody first and then Crouch Jr./Moody caused the disturbance.

> 
> 
> 
> 5. Did you have any ideas about what Hermione was doing in the library?

Being Hermione? ;o)

Thanks for the questions! Going back to lurking -
Pat


> Nikkalmati
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH
> Chapter Discussions" at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33
> 
> If you would like to volunteer to lead a chapter discussion, please drop a note
> to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).
>





From carylcb at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 10 21:34:25 2012
From: carylcb at hotmail.com (Caryl Brown)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:34:25 -0400
Subject: DON'T OPEN ANY LINKS SENT THROUGH THIS ACCOUNT!
Message-ID: <BAY154-W5638175E4F18B6D4B1FBAEABD20@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 192191


Apparently I was hacked/virused. I just found out about it and am working to fix the problem. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Caryl
 		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Jul 11 01:01:24 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 01:01:24 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 13:  Mad-Eye Moody
In-Reply-To: <jtcsnk+8cjt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jtij94+2loj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192192


> Questions:
> 
> 1. Do you think JKR was poking fun through Hermione at people who rush to the
> defense of those they consider victims without considering the feelings of the
> so-called victims or was she trying to make a point about treating everyone
> fairly?


Pippin:
I think she was doing both. JKR often approaches a serious issue through parody. The House Elves *are* being treated unfairly.  Hermione's heart is in the right place. But while she recognizes how foolish it would be to tackle  mountain trolls or Death Eaters without practical knowledge and an experienced trainer, it doesn't occur to her that fighting social evils needs preparation too. Oops.


> 
> 2. Crouch, Jr. was behaving in a way that would convince the faculty and DD
> that he was Mad-Eye., so did he attack Draco because it was something Mad-Eye
> would do or was he angry at the Malfoys in general?

Pippin:
I think the manner of the attack was something Mad-eye would do -- when the Death Eaters want to punish somebody, they use the Cruciatus Curse. That's what put Barty Jr in Azkaban. 

 I never noticed this before, but transfiguration as a punishment appeals only to the relatively virtuous, whether it's Hagrid attempting to turn Dudley into a pig or the repentant Percy turning on Thicknesse. I guess if you're a DE, you don't need to dehumanize your victims before you  can torture them.

I do think he was angry mostly at Lucius, as a DE who walked free. But I don't think Crouch Jr would find Draco's smugness about his family any more appealing than Ron and Harry do. 


> 
> 3. Why did Draco become a ferret? Would that be his Animagus form or did
> Mad-Eye make that choice?

Pippin:
Since Draco hasn't mastered the animagus transformation, we'll never know <g>  There seems to be  no way to predict what your animagus form or your patronus will be, so if either was a ferret, it would be sheer coincidence. I suppose Mad-eye, or rather, Barty Jr, picked the ferret form because he thought Malfoy was ferret-like in some way, same as Hagrid thought a pig's form would be appropriate for Dudley. 

> 
> 4. What do you think really happened at Mad-Eye's house with the Muggle
> policemen that required modification of their memories? Is Arthur authorized to
> do that?

Pippin:
As I recall, when Barty Jr gives his version of events, the protections, including the exploding trash cans,  went off as a result of his attack on the real Moody. I suspect that Moody knew he had cried wolf so many times that attracting the attention of Muggles was the only way to make sure the Ministry responded. Too bad it didn't work. 

Arthur's work requires him to deal with minor mischief involving Muggles that doesn't rise to the level of Dark Wizardry. The exploding trash cans didn't actually hurt anyone, AFAWK.


> 5. Did you have any ideas about what Hermione was doing in the library?

Pippin:
I thought she'd be researching the House Elf issue.

Thanks for the questions. 

Pippin






From technomad at intergate.com  Wed Jul 11 02:39:37 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:39:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 13:
	 Mad-Eye Moody
In-Reply-To: <jtij94+2loj@eGroups.com>
References: <jtij94+2loj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20120710213937.0s0po626fk8w44cs@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192193

Quoting pippin_999 <foxmoth at qnet.com>:


>> 2. Crouch, Jr. was behaving in a way that would convince the faculty and DD
>> that he was Mad-Eye., so did he attack Draco because it was   
>> something Mad-Eye
>> would do or was he angry at the Malfoys in general?
>
> Pippin:
> I think the manner of the attack was something Mad-eye would do --   
> when the Death Eaters want to punish somebody, they use the   
> Cruciatus Curse. That's what put Barty Jr in Azkaban.
>
> I do think he was angry mostly at Lucius, as a DE who walked free.   
> But I don't think Crouch Jr would find Draco's smugness about his   
> family any more appealing than Ron and Harry do.
>

*Particularly* if Lucius was the DE who had recruited him!  That would  
be bitter as gall, to see the man who ruined your life walking away  
free as a bird...

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 22:44:46 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:44:46 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <jsvpgo+s8mc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jtkvku+j4m6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192194



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Steve:
> > 
> > ... Even if you are not its Master, it is still a powerful wand. 
> 
> Pippin:
> It was a powerful wand for Voldemort because he was such a powerful
> wizard. ...
> 
> Pippin
>

Steve:

Let me rephrase. It is no so much the technical realities of the Elder Wand that matter. It is the idea, the Legend of the most power wand that every existed that is going to draw people to it. Simply look at the wand history over the Centuries should establish that. 

Idiots can buy powerful weapons and feel empowered because of them, even when they are too incompetent to use them. I saw a video of a Middle Eastern guy firing a 'bazooka' or the modern equivalent of it. Probably a small ground to air missile or similar. Shouldered it and fired, but he had it backwards, the rocket launched out of the rear and struck a hill behind him. He had the power of the Rocket, but not the power of the brain to properly use it. 

Again, that's not a prefect analogy. But I think many many people would be more drawn to the Legend of the Elder Wand than to the wand itself. How long have people been searching and fantasizing about the Holy Grail? Legends have power. 

But, my short story aside. A lot of factors come into play. First, a person must realize that Harry actually had and was Master of the Wand. Few people figured out that Dumbledore had it, and that should have been obvious. Then, they must determine that such wand actually currently exists and was not destroyed. Then they have to figure out where it is. Then they have to figure out how to get it. But before they get it, if the expect to realize its power, they have to defeat Harry. None of those are easy tasks, and to have to accomplish them all is near impossible. 

But, near impossible is not enough to stop people from fantasizing about the wand, nor to prevent a few idiots from trying to find it. Most would fail miserably. But it only takes one clever wizard to put the pieces together and come up with a less than hair-brained plan to capture it and its power.

Legends are very powerful things. The Legend of Curly's Gold. The Legend of the Holy Grail. The Legend of the Fountain of Youth. The Legend of the Guardian (of Ga'Hoole). The Legend of Davie Crockett. The Legend of Atlantis. The Legend of Hercules. The Legend of (insert legend here).

An idea can be a powerful force. 

Steve/bboyminn





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jul 16 20:06:37 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:06:37 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <jtkvku+j4m6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ju1s8d+tjh2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192195

Steve:
> Legends are very powerful things. The Legend of Curly's Gold. The Legend of the Holy Grail. The Legend of the Fountain of Youth. The Legend of the Guardian (of Ga'Hoole). The Legend of Davie Crockett. The Legend of Atlantis. The Legend of Hercules. The Legend of (insert legend here).
> 
> An idea can be a powerful force. 
> 

Pippin:

Sure. But combatting the idea that the wand exists is the idea that it doesn't, and that's what most wizards believe, except for a few eccentrics like Luna's father. Wandlore experts don't believe in the *legendary* wand at all. Ollivander, for example, is perfectly well aware that the wand, though powerful, does not make its owner invincible, nor does he believe that the wand has to be transferred by killing its current possessor. Voldemort essentially invented a legend of the Elder Wand and attached it to  the Elder Wand that he had. 

I might add that the seekers after such legendary objects are generally pretty  legendary themselves -- even Ponce De Leon did not become associated with the Fountain of Youth until well after he was dead. 

Most of the people who heard Harry's final conversation with Voldemort wouldn't have known what he was talking about, and those who did probably thought he was playing along with a wizard everyone knows was a nutcase. As in, "Sure, You Know Who may have *believed* he had the Elder Wand, but everyone knows it doesn't  really exist." If Luna Lovegood went around explaining that the Wand is real and her father's been seeking it for years -- well, that'd just about ice the cake, wouldn't it <g>

As you say, the obstacles facing someone attempting to claim the Elder Wand are considerable. A wizard going after it would need to have considerable power of his own already -- in which case, he wouldn't need it.   Even Voldemort didn't think he needed it until he deluded himself into believing that he could defeat Harry if he just had a superior wand. 

Anyone who  did claim the wand would have the same problem as every previous owner -- the taker of the wand only has to be lucky once, but to keep it he has to be lucky every single time. But  Harry has less to fear than a wizard stealing the wand to get power, because even if Harry lost mastery of the wand, he'd still be a great wizard with a lot of powerful friends. 

That  danger is remote, compared to the danger from the three wizards who already know about the wand. Harry does not need to give Ron another reason to be envious, or Hermione another way to get around the stubborn refusal of people to do what she thinks would be good for them. And Harry does not need a wand that has shed so much innocent blood, not if he thinks of what might have happened if he'd had the Elder Wand with him when he met Snape again in the corridors of Hogwarts. 

Pippin







From kat7555 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 16 22:25:15 2012
From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:25:15 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <ju1s8d+tjh2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ju24cb+kdd3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192196


> Pippin:
> <SNIP>
> > That  danger is remote, compared to the danger from the three wizards who already know about the wand. Harry does not need to give Ron another reason to be envious, or Hermione another way to get around the stubborn refusal of people to do what she thinks would be good for them. And Harry does not need a wand that has shed so much innocent blood, not if he thinks of what might have happened if he'd had the Elder Wand with him when he met Snape again in the corridors of Hogwarts.


kat7555:
Harry has also never sought to be the most powerful person in the world. When he looked into the Mirror of Erised he saw the family he never had not his becoming a powerful wizard. This allowed him to handle the Sorcerer's stone and keep it out of Voldemort's hands. I've always believed that Dumbledore understood Voldemort more than he did Harry because both of them had been power hungry in their youth and Harry was nothing like them.

kat7555




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Jul 18 20:51:21 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:51:21 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <ju24cb+kdd3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ju77k9+d7kh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192197

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kathy" <kat7555 at ...> wrote:

kat7555:
> Harry has also never sought to be the most powerful person in the world. When he looked into the Mirror of Erised he saw the family he never had not his becoming a powerful wizard. This allowed him to handle the Sorcerer's stone and keep it out of Voldemort's hands. I've always believed that Dumbledore understood Voldemort more than he did Harry because both of them had been power hungry in their youth and Harry was nothing like them.

Geoff:
A couple of thoughts to follow your comment...

When Harry talked to Dumbledore about the Mirror of Erised, Dumbledore's 
summary of the Mirror's powers was:
'"It shows us nothing more or less than the deepest, most desperate desire 
of out hearts..."'
(PS "The Mirror of Erised" p.157 UK edition)

Harry wanted to see and know his family - a wish could not be fulfilled but 
which the Mirror recognised.

However, at this point, Harry did not know anything about the Philosopher's 
Stone. It was only in the following chapter when Harry realises that Flamel is 
mentioned on Dumbledore's Frog Card. After Hermione rushes off to get one 
of her inevitable books she explains to a slightly gormless Harry and Ron 
what power the Stone holds.

The Stone was able to grant immortality but that does NOT automatically 
make its user the most powerful person in the world so even if Harry sought 
that (which he didn't) it would not be relevant in this situation.








From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 31 20:10:41 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:10:41 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling Webcast - Oct 11, 2012
Message-ID: <jv9e41+3rfu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192198

If has been announced that J.K.Rowling, in cooperation with Scholastic Publishing, will start a new website titled "The Harry Potter Reading Club" which will encourage reading among children. 

There will be a live Webcast starting at Noon on Oct 11 from her hometown of Edinburgh. The Webcast can be viewed at -

scholastic.com/hpreadingclub

One assume the time is NOON Edinburgh time. 

Also, JKR's new adult oriented book "The Casual Vacancy" is due for release in September 2012. 

Just passing this information along. 

Steve/bboyminn