From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Jun  1 21:46:44 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 21:46:44 -0000
Subject: Draco and the RoR was Ginny
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds13563D3C8172AD8F403472D50B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <jqbd84+dqvb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192115

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Corey overton <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:

Corey:
> I think when it came right down to it Draco didn't really know who his friends really were.

Geoff:
I don't think Draco had very many real "friends". Crabbe and Goyle were no
more than minders for him and I believe that most relationships in Slytherin 
were power plays and jockeying for position and far from being altruistic.

Corey:
> Oh and did anyone notice that he didn't thank Harry or the others meaning Ron and 
> Hermione for saving him.

Geoff:
Well, bearing in mind that when the five survivors emerged from the fire, I 
think they were all rather distracted by what had just happened and the fact 
that the battle continued to rage round them:

'Then, through the smoke, Harry saw a rectangular patch on the wall and 
steered the broom at it and moments later  clean air filled his lungs and 
they collided with the wall in the corridor beyond.

Malfoy fell off the broom and lay face down, gasping, coughing and retching. 
Harry rolled over and sat up: the door to the Room of Requirement had 
vanished and Ron and Hermione sat panting on the floor beside Goyle, who 
was still unconscious.

"C- Crabbe,"choked Malfoy as soon as he could speak, "C - Crabbe..."

"He's dead," said Ron harshly.

.....

"Where's Ginny?" he (Harry) said sharply. "She was here. She was supposed 
to be going back into the Room of Requirement."

"Blimey, d'you think it'll still work after that fire?" asked Ron but he, too, 
got to his feet, rubbing his chest and looking left and right. "Shall we split up 
and look-?"

"No," said Hermione. getting to her feet too. Malfoy and Goyle remained 
slumped hopelessly on the corridor floor; neither of them had wands. 
"Let's stick together, I say we go..."

.....

But she broke off as yells and shouts and the unmistakable noises of 
duelling filled the corridor. Harry looked around and his heart seemed to 
fail: Death eaters had penetrated Hogwarts. Fred and Percy had just backed
 into view, both of them duelling masked and hooded men.

Harry, Ron and Hermione ran forwards to help....'

(DH "The Battle of Hogwarts" extracts from pp.510/11 UK edition)

I think this was not an environment where time was taken to stop and 
offer thanks for help given. Physical and emotional exhaustion, and the 
need to search for and help comrades overruled.

I would like to think that at some future point, some sort of exchange 
occurred and "the nod" was a silent acknowledgement of that.




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  2 01:07:24 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 20:07:24 -0500
Subject: Draco and the RoR was Ginny
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds204F2959D48B4B6301AF26D5090@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 192116

Corey:
> Oh and did anyone notice that he didn't thank Harry or the others meaning Ron
and
> Hermione for saving him.

Geoff:
Well, bearing in mind that when the five survivors emerged from the fire, I
think they were all rather distracted by what had just happened and the fact
that the battle continued to rage round them <SNIP CANON>


Corey:

Yeah I guess you are right. But remember what Malfoy said to the deatheaters - I am on your side. And Ron said - that's twice we just saved your life, you two faced bastard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sat Jun  2 07:10:58 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 07:10:58 -0000
Subject: Draco and the RoR was Ginny
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds204F2959D48B4B6301AF26D5090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <jqcea2+e50t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192117

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Corey overton <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:
>
> Corey:
> > Oh and did anyone notice that he didn't thank Harry or the others meaning Ron
> and
> > Hermione for saving him.
> 
> Geoff:
> Well, bearing in mind that when the five survivors emerged from the fire, I
> think they were all rather distracted by what had just happened and the fact
> that the battle continued to rage round them <SNIP CANON>

Corey: 
> Yeah I guess you are right. But remember what Malfoy said to the deatheaters - I am on your side. And Ron said - that's twice we just saved your life, you two faced bastard.

Geoff:
I don't think that's relevant to your original comment. We were discussing Draco 
expressing his thanks. Here we've got someone who hasn't really had time to 
process what just happened and finds himself at the wrong end of a weapon 
belonging to someone on his own side. I don't think he has time to engage the 
Death Eater in a philosophical discussion and his first reaction, as would be mine, 
is to try to avoid getting killed by "friendly fire".

Ron, in his usual hands-on fashion, is just stating the obvious.
:-)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Jun  2 15:34:19 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 15:34:19 -0000
Subject: Draco and the RoR was Ginny
In-Reply-To: <jqbd84+dqvb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jqdbpr+ee8b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192118

 
> Corey:
> > I think when it came right down to it Draco didn't really know who his friends really were.
> 
> Geoff:
> I don't think Draco had very many real "friends". Crabbe and Goyle were no
> more than minders for him and I believe that most relationships in Slytherin 
> were power plays and jockeying for position and far from being altruistic.

Pippin:


I don't  think that Slytherins are incapable of friendship. Snape is genuinely concerned for Lily of course, but also about Lucius -- remember the sudden motion he made when Harry outed Lucius as a death eater? Slughorn is  heartbroken about Lily's fate and wishes that she could have been in his House. 

I don't think I buy the "minders" role for Crabbe and Goyle either. First of all, what does Draco need minders for? His parents are hostage for his 'good' behavior. Nor has Draco failed in the role that Voldemort chose for him -- ie, being a knife that Voldie can twist in Lucius's guts. 

But mainly it's this scene in the RoR:

[Harry] skidded to a halt and turned around. Crabbe and Goyle were standing behind him, shoulder to shoulder, wands pointing right at Harry. Through the small gap between their jeering faces he saw Draco Malfoy. -- DH ch 31

That shows teamwork, with Draco in charge of the team -- they reveal themselves as one, and  you don't mind somebody by putting them behind you!

Given that Crabbe and Goyle aren't smart enough to think of it themselves, hanging back and hunting for Harry can only have been Draco's idea. The Carrows are prisoners and Snape has fled. Which means that Draco did, after all, accomplish something positive for the defenders. He kept Crabbe and Goyle from joining Voldemort's attack, and before you say, so what, consider what Fiendfyre would have done if Crabbe had let it loose on the grounds. (shudder).

I think Draco and Goyle are genuinely friends while Draco and Crabbe never were -- if you look back to the polyjuice episode in CoS, you will find Harry making  Goyle's face show concern for Draco, while Draco doesn't express any concern at all about "Crabbe's" attack of stomach trouble. 
> 
> Corey:
> > Oh and did anyone notice that he didn't thank Harry or the others meaning Ron and 
> > Hermione for saving him.
> 

Pippin:
Yes, I did notice that. But Draco looks around beaming with gratitude when Ron (from under the cloak) saves him again a few pages later. Ron, still semi-murderous with rage over the death of his brother, punches Draco in the mouth for it, and calls him a two-faced git. 

Though of course whenever *Harry* manages to talk  himself out of a tight spot, Ron thinks it's cool.

And what exactly is the lie, anyway? That Draco is on the Death Eater's side?

It's not, IMO, that Draco doesn't know who his friends are. It's that he doesn't know who *he* is. Is he the person who was going to turn Harry over to Voldemort, or the one who screamed capslock "DON'T KILL HIM!" Is he the one who stretched out his hand to Harry for help or the one who said, "I'm on your side" to a Death Eater? The one who nodded to Harry on the platform or the one who turned away? The one who named his son 'Scorpius' or the one who sent said son to Hogwarts, instead of schooling him elsewhere? 



In  the earlier books, Draco always knows more about what's going on and thinks he's more the insider  than Harry.That begins to reverse itself in HBP, and the process is completed at the victory celebration, where it's the Malfoys who look as if they're not certain they belong.'

Dumbledore would say that Draco's heart really isn't in being the fanatically cold-hearted opportunist he thinks he's supposed to be. But if you've been trained to believe in a fixed mindset, where birth determines everything, the only variable you can control is the amount of effort you put in -- but you've also been taught that effort only counts for a little. So if  Draco makes his choices rather randomly, from the point of view of an outsider, that may be because he's never been taught to think that they mattered that much.

That, to me, explains Harry's attitude towards  Al on the platform. The choice of Houses *is* important, but not for the reason that Al thinks it is. It's important for Al to believe that he has some control over what kind of person he wants to be -- and he doesn't have to believe anything just because someone powerful and important thinks he should -- whether it's the Sorting Hat or his own parents. 

Just a side note on Ginny here: considering that side of the castle was already under attack, she'd have been crazy to wait in the corridor for Harry. Going to join the defenders in a non-combat role was only sensible -- how else could Harry have found her again?

Pippin














From lynde4 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 17:09:15 2012
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 10:09:15 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco and the RoR was Ginny
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds204F2959D48B4B6301AF26D5090@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT133-ds204F2959D48B4B6301AF26D5090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iPWdBaS3fXQ=oGw5inXWFMB7wKpBw25nONj7wUVn6hfsg@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192119

Geoff:

I think this was not an environment where time was taken to stop and
offer thanks for help given. Physical and emotional exhaustion, and the
need to search for and help comrades overruled.
I would like to think that at some future point, some sort of exchange
occurred and "the nod" was a silent acknowledgement of that.

Lynda:

I never had any doubt about that. The nod, I think, was exactly that, and
at the same time, all that Draco could allow himself to do.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zucht413 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  2 15:54:42 2012
From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 08:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco and the RoR was Ginny
In-Reply-To: <jqdbpr+ee8b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1338652482.51748.YahooMailClassic@web112007.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192120



--- On Sat, 6/2/12, pippin_999 <foxmoth at qnet.com> wrote:

Just a side note on Ginny here: considering that side of the castle was already under attack, she'd have been crazy to wait in the corridor for Harry. Going to join the defenders in a non-combat role was only sensible -- how else could Harry have found her again?


Z:

A) Senseless Ginny didn't join the defenders as a non-combatant.
B) That 7th floor hallway wasn't under attack.
C) Being where she should have been would have made it extremely easy for Harry to find her; when she came into the room to warn them that Draco and the Butt-Boys were headed their way.

Z

"I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun  3 16:55:21 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 3 Jun 2012 16:55:21 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/3/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1338742521.30.34767.m5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192121

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From bpmull at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  4 06:11:53 2012
From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 23:11:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Draco and the RoR (Draco's Actions)
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds204F2959D48B4B6301AF26D5090@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT133-ds204F2959D48B4B6301AF26D5090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1338790313.58433.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192122

> Corey:
> Yeah I guess you are right. But remember what Malfoy said to the
deatheaters - I am on your side. And Ron said - that's twice we just
> saved your life, you two faced bastard.

Bruce:
Well. You do need to remember that he was more interested in saving
his own life. He's not a Gryffindor who acts heroic for other's sake.
Also, he knew that neither Harry nor Ron were going to attack him in
the back -- not so the Death Eaters.
?
This in no way excuses him, but it is understandable behavior.

Dr Bruce P. Mull
Professor of Computer Science
Professor of Mathematics





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun  7 16:45:20 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:45:20 -0000
Subject: Draco and the RoR (Draco's Actions)
In-Reply-To: <1338790313.58433.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <jqqlr0+cju8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192123



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bruce Mull <bpmull at ...> wrote:
>
> > Corey:
> > Yeah I guess you are right. But remember what Malfoy said to the
> deatheaters - I am on your side. And Ron said - that's twice we just
> > saved your life, you two faced bastard.
> 
> Bruce:
> Well. You do need to remember that he was more interested in saving
> his own life. He's not a Gryffindor who acts heroic for other's sake.
> Also, he knew that neither Harry nor Ron were going to attack him in
> the back -- not so the Death Eaters.
> ?

Pippin:
It's interesting you would say that, since Draco passed up a chance to attack Harry from the back in the RoR. Harry and Ron, OTOH, attacked Death Eaters from under the Invisibility Cloak. 

It would be convenient if the characters only did what their philosophies say they should do -- but JKR's characters are a lot more complicated than that. 

It could be that "proper wizard feeling" requires you to engage your enemy in a duel, a convention imposed by more fair-minded wizards which Draco is nonetheless conditioned to respect. Even Voldemort seems to understand that if he wishes to impress his followers, he can't just present them with a dead Harry. 

 OTOH, it could be that gloating is the only part of of being a badass dark wizard that Draco actually likes. The point is, we don't know, just as Draco doesn't know why Harry does what he does. But both were conditioned to see the worst in one another. 

If I were in Draco's pointy wizard boots, I would probably think Harry had squandered a large part of his claim to my gratitude for pulling me out of the fire when he interrupted the rescue and plunged  back into the fire in order to retrieve the diadem. 

*We* know why the diadem was so important. We also know that Harry went looking for survivors first and did not even think of the diadem again until he saw the fire monsters playing with it.

 But Draco doesn't know that. He could be forgiven for thinking that rescuing him  and Goyle was, to Harry, just another daredevil stunt, like snatching the golden egg from the dragon in GoF. The more so since Harry does not even bother to take  them prisoner, but abandons them, wandless and alone in the midst of a battle. 

Harry pays more attention to finding a secure place to leave poor Fred's dead body than to the fate of the two living people he saved from the fire. I think, to Harry's credit, he realizes this was a mistake at King's Cross ("Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and above all, those who live without love. By returning, you may ensure that fewer souls are maimed, fewer families torn apart.") 


Pippin







From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 15 04:17:32 2012
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 04:17:32 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
Message-ID: <jred0s+cv0h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192124

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----------------------------------------------------------

Chapter 12, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament

Doused with rain, and with water bombs courtesy of Peeves, the students sit at their house tables for the Sorting and the Beginning of Year Feast.  Colin Creevey tells Harry that his brother is a new student.  Harry and Hermione notice the empty chair where the Defence Against the Dark Arts professor should sit.  The first years come in, soaked from their trip across the lake, and the Sorting begins.  Fred and George hiss the first student Sorted into Slytherin.  Nearly Headless Nick mentions Peeves's earlier disappointment at not being allowed to attend the feast, and his disruptions of the kitchens, also mentioning that there are House Elves at Hogwarts.  Hermione refuses to eat any more.

Dumbledore rises to make an announcement, but is interrupted by Professor Moody's entrance.  His scarred appearance quietens the students.  After introducing the new DADA professor, Dumbledore finishes announcing that Hogwarts will host the Tri-Wizard Tournament, and gives some background on it.  Hermione is worried about the deaths that have taken place over the centuries, but most of the other students are excited by the news.  Fred and George decide that they will try to enter, despite the age restriction.  The students are sent off to their dormitories to get a good night's rest before the start of classes the next day.

1)  There seems to be a long list of new students.  How does this compare to speculation about numbers in the Wizarding World?

2)  Nearly Headless Nick agrees with Slytherin's ghost, the Bloody Baron, that Peeves should not be allowed at the feast.  Did you think this indicated a later union, or at least cooperation, between Gryffindor and Slytherin?

3)  In books and movies, storms usually foreshadow danger.  Did the storm, and Moody's atmospheric entrance, make you wonder if Moody might be evil?  Did you think it might be a red herring?

4)  There were several introductions in this chapter.  Returning supporting characters, like Colin Creevey, were briefly sketched.  Other introductions were: House Elves at Hogwarts and Hermione's reaction to this news; the Tri-Wizard Tournament; Durmstrang and Beauxbatons schools; Dennis Creevey; Moody, his flask, and his artificial leg and eye; the soft step that captures students.  Which was your favorite?  What did you like about them?  Did the introductions give you an idea of how they would be used later on?

5)  Only Dumbledore and Hagrid clap for Professor Moody.  Were you embarrassed for either him, or for the students for not clapping?

6)  Please add any questions you may have.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

If you would like to volunteer to lead a chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 01:29:07 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 01:29:07 -0000
Subject: Draco and the RoR (Draco's Actions)
In-Reply-To: <jqqlr0+cju8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jrgnh3+hooi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192125



.> Pippin:
> It's interesting you would say that, since Draco passed up a chance to attack Harry from the back in the RoR. Harry and Ron, OTOH, attacked Death Eaters from under the Invisibility Cloak. 
> 
> It would be convenient if the characters only did what their philosophies say they should do -- but JKR's characters are a lot more complicated than that. 
> 
> It could be that "proper wizard feeling" requires you to engage your enemy in a duel, a convention imposed by more fair-minded wizards which Draco is nonetheless conditioned to respect. Even Voldemort seems to understand that if he wishes to impress his followers, he can't just present them with a dead Harry. 
> 
>  OTOH, it could be that gloating is the only part of of being a badass dark wizard that Draco actually likes. The point is, we don't know, just as Draco doesn't know why Harry does what he does. But both were conditioned to see the worst in one another. 
> 
> If I were in Draco's pointy wizard boots, I would probably think Harry had squandered a large part of his claim to my gratitude for pulling me out of the fire when he interrupted the rescue and plunged  back into the fire in order to retrieve the diadem. 
> 
> *We* know why the diadem was so important. We also know that Harry went looking for survivors first and did not even think of the diadem again until he saw the fire monsters playing with it.
> 
>  But Draco doesn't know that. He could be forgiven for thinking that rescuing him  and Goyle was, to Harry, just another daredevil stunt, like snatching the golden egg from the dragon in GoF. The more so since Harry does not even bother to take  them prisoner, but abandons them, wandless and alone in the midst of a battle. 
> 
> Harry pays more attention to finding a secure place to leave poor Fred's dead body than to the fate of the two living people he saved from the fire. I think, to Harry's credit, he realizes this was a mistake at King's Cross ("Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and above all, those who live without love. By returning, you may ensure that fewer souls are maimed, fewer families torn apart.") 


Alla:

It is an interesting point, Pippin. Although I do not know about you, but if somebody saves me from the fire and *then* goes on to save whatever material thing he needs to save for whatever reason, I would consider myself to be in depth to this person till I am dead from whatever other reasons. I am only addressing your claim as to whether Draco can be justified not feeling gratitude here. In my opinion this is not the reason any half decent human being (if Draco thinks of himself as one) has any right to claim, regardless of whatever bad history they have amongst them.

Now, if Harry would have tried to retrieve diadem first, I guess I could see the point in your speculation, but as you said, he didn't, he saved them first. 






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 03:54:47 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 03:54:47 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <jred0s+cv0h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jrh027+r072@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192126



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at ...> wrote:
.
> 
> Chapter 12, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
<SUMMARY SNIP>
> 
>.> 1)  There seems to be a long list of new students.  How does this compare to speculation about numbers in the Wizarding World?

Alla:

Me Bad with math - veeery bad. 
> 
> 2)  Nearly Headless Nick agrees with Slytherin's ghost, the Bloody Baron, that Peeves should not be allowed at the feast.  Did you think this indicated a later union, or at least cooperation, between Gryffindor and Slytherin?

Alla:

LOL. No. I just thought that ghosts were able to get along better than the living people if I remember correctly.

> 
> 3)  In books and movies, storms usually foreshadow danger.  Did the storm, and Moody's atmospheric entrance, make you wonder if Moody might be evil?  Did you think it might be a red herring?

Alla:

Hmm, I do not think so. I am 99% positive that Moody was one of the best hidden secrets in these books and I did not suspect swat on the first reading. Did you though? Did you think of symbolism of the storm when you read it for the first time? I think I just thought it was to increase a drama.

 
> 4)  There were several introductions in this chapter.  Returning supporting characters, like Colin Creevey, were briefly sketched.  Other introductions were: House Elves at Hogwarts and Hermione's reaction to this news; the Tri-Wizard Tournament; Durmstrang and Beauxbatons schools; Dennis Creevey; Moody, his flask, and his artificial leg and eye; the soft step that captures students.  Which was your favorite?  What did you like about them?  Did the introductions give you an idea of how they would be used later on?

Alla:

I think I loved how with one chapter the Wizarding World received some depth, if that makes sense. Now suddenly Hogwarts is not the only school. There are elves slaving in Hogwarts with supposedly progressive Headmaster, we have scary scary new professor. I think I loved them all. I thought Creevey brothers were nuisance though.

 
> 5)  Only Dumbledore and Hagrid clap for Professor Moody.  Were you embarrassed for either him, or for the students for not clapping?

Alla:

I think I just thought he was scary and thus was not embarassed for anybody not clapping.

Thanks for the great questions Ceridwen.




From barbarahynd at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 17 11:52:01 2012
From: barbarahynd at yahoo.com (Barbara Hynd)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 04:52:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard To
Message-ID: <1339933921.13700.YahooMailNeo@web122604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192127

2) Nearly Headless Nick agrees with Slytherin's ghost, the Bloody Baron, that Peeves should not be allowed at the feast. Did you think this indicated a later union, or at least cooperation, between Gryffindor and Slytherin??


I'm not sure about a later union but personally, I felt that NHN agreed with the Bloody Baron for 2 reasons.
First, I seems that BB was a sort of "leader" of the ghosts, one they respected and feared. ?So agreeing with him certainly would put NHN in his good graces.
But NHN faced his own prejudice by the Headless group. ?He was a sort of outcast and perhaps this was a way for him to show his own prejudice. ?"Nyah, Nyah, I'm better than you are." ?

Barbara.



From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 18 16:08:43 2012
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:08:43 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <jrh027+r072@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jrnjqb+btsn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192128

> > Ceridwen:

> > 3)  In books and movies, storms usually foreshadow danger.  Did the storm, and Moody's atmospheric entrance, make you wonder if Moody might be evil?  Did you think it might be a red herring?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Hmm, I do not think so. I am 99% positive that Moody was one of the best hidden secrets in these books and I did not suspect swat on the first reading. Did you though? Did you think of symbolism of the storm when you read it for the first time? I think I just thought it was to increase a drama.

Ceridwen:

That's how those things usually play out, though sometimes it can be a reversal - you expect the guy that the storm blew in, to be evil or scary or whatever, and he turns out to be a comedian, or the Good Guy, or the pizza delivery guy.  As a device, it's been around long enough for people to both use it seriously, and to make fun of it, so I really wasn't sure.

> > Ceridwen:
>  
> > 4)  There were several introductions in this chapter.  Returning supporting characters, like Colin Creevey, were briefly sketched.  Other introductions were: House Elves at Hogwarts and Hermione's reaction to this news; the Tri-Wizard Tournament; Durmstrang and Beauxbatons schools; Dennis Creevey; Moody, his flask, and his artificial leg and eye; the soft step that captures students.  Which was your favorite?  What did you like about them?  Did the introductions give you an idea of how they would be used later on?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think I loved how with one chapter the Wizarding World received some depth, if that makes sense. Now suddenly Hogwarts is not the only school. There are elves slaving in Hogwarts with supposedly progressive Headmaster, we have scary scary new professor. I think I loved them all. I thought Creevey brothers were nuisance though.
> 

Ceridwen:

I was surprised about the house elves, too.  I thought the plates, etc., appeared and disappeared by wizard magic.  Of course, we didn't hear about the elves before this book.  The WW did a lot of expanding in this chapter, I thought.  New schools, revived tournament, elves, and so on.

Totally agree on the Creevey brothers.

Glad you liked the questions!

Ceridwen.




From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 18 16:10:59 2012
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:10:59 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard To
In-Reply-To: <1339933921.13700.YahooMailNeo@web122604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <jrnjuj+bk5q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192129

> > Ceridwen:
>
> 2) Nearly Headless Nick agrees with Slytherin's ghost, the Bloody Baron, that Peeves should not be allowed at the feast. Did you think this indicated a later union, or at least cooperation, between Gryffindor and Slytherin??


> Barbara:
> 
> I'm not sure about a later union but personally, I felt that NHN agreed with the Bloody Baron for 2 reasons.
> First, I seems that BB was a sort of "leader" of the ghosts, one they respected and feared. ?So agreeing with him certainly would put NHN in his good graces.
> But NHN faced his own prejudice by the Headless group. ?He was a sort of outcast and perhaps this was a way for him to show his own prejudice. ?"Nyah, Nyah, I'm better than you are." ?

Ceridwen:

I hadn't thought of that angle.  Puts Nick in an understandable, but not too laudable, light.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Jun 18 22:23:37 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:23:37 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <jrnjqb+btsn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jro9p9+hihl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192130



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at ...> wrote:

Ceridwen:
> I was surprised about the house elves, too.  I thought the plates, etc., appeared and disappeared by wizard magic.  Of course, we didn't hear about the elves before this book.  The WW did a lot of expanding in this chapter, I thought.  New schools, revived tournament, elves, and so on.

Geoff:
Hang on... the house elves appeared in COS, n'est pas?.




From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 19 13:38:02 2012
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:38:02 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <jro9p9+hihl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jrpvbq+slqr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192131

> Ceridwen:
> > I was surprised about the house elves, too.  I thought the plates, etc., appeared and disappeared by wizard magic.  Of course, we didn't hear about the elves before this book.  The WW did a lot of expanding in this chapter, I thought.  New schools, revived tournament, elves, and so on.
> 
> Geoff:
> Hang on... the house elves appeared in COS, n'est pas?.

Ceridwen:

Did they?  I'm trying to recall, not having the book on me.  Was it something with the kitchens?




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Tue Jun 19 14:51:28 2012
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:51:28 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <jrpvbq+slqr@eGroups.com>
References: <jro9p9+hihl@eGroups.com>
  <jrpvbq+slqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1535323724-1340117485-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1971397224-@b4.c18.bise6.blackberry>

No: HPFGUIDX 192132

> Geoff:
> Hang on... the house elves appeared in COS, n'est pas?.

Ceridwen:

Did they? I'm trying to recall, not having the book on me. Was it something with the kitchens?******

No it was Dobby in COS.

Melissa
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at hotmail.com>
Sender: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:38:02 
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament

> Ceridwen:
> > I was surprised about the house elves, too.  I thought the plates, etc., appeared and disappeared by wizard magic.  Of course, we didn't hear about the elves before this book.  The WW did a lot of expanding in this chapter, I thought.  New schools, revived tournament, elves, and so on.
> 
> Geoff:
> Hang on... the house elves appeared in COS, n'est pas?.

Ceridwen:

Did they?  I'm trying to recall, not having the book on me.  Was it something with the kitchens?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cresorchid at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 12:42:18 2012
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 07:42:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of
 Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <jro9p9+hihl@eGroups.com>
References: <jrnjqb+btsn@eGroups.com>
	<jro9p9+hihl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0OffmzZgi=zv0_C+HW-JOgLJcVnPa9=TaH593xykDkWPg@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192133

Geoff:
Hang on... the house elves appeared in COS, n'est pas?.

Crescent:
Yes, Dobby was introduced in COS, but not the fact that there were house
elves at Hogwarts (as far as I can recall.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 19 19:10:39 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:10:39 -0500
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds197ED92C2E47F369D5E76D5FF0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 192134

Hey has anyone on this list listened to the Stephen Fry books of the 
Potter books? I have a few of them and they're not bad. They have a 
few different words than their American counterparts but they're not 
bad.

Corey





From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Tue Jun 19 20:04:13 2012
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:04:13 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds197ED92C2E47F369D5E76D5FF0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT133-ds197ED92C2E47F369D5E76D5FF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FE0DB3D.6070905@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192135

On 19/06/2012 20:10, Corey overton wrote:
> Hey has anyone on this list listened to the Stephen Fry books of the
> Potter books? I have a few of them and they're not bad. They have a
> few different words than their American counterparts but they're not
> bad.


AJM:
I've actually listened to both the UK and US versions of the audio 
books.  I live in the UK so obviously the wording of the UK versions 
is not strange to me.   I don't know whether the wording of all the 
HP books was changed for the US versions, I know it was for the first 
book in some places but I'm not sure whether changes were made for 
all the books.  I actually think that both versions of the audio 
books were very good.  The reading styles are obviously different but 
I think that both are very good.

AJM



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Jun 19 21:17:20 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:17:20 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <CAPyU+0OffmzZgi=zv0_C+HW-JOgLJcVnPa9=TaH593xykDkWPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <jrqq90+ofgj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192136

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandra Lynn <cresorchid at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> Hang on... the house elves appeared in COS, n'est pas?.
 
> Crescent:
> Yes, Dobby was introduced in COS, but not the fact that there were house
> elves at Hogwarts (as far as I can recall.

Geoff:
Yes, but the key sentence in Ceridwin's post was: "Of course, we didn't 
hear about the elves before this book", which I took to be a statement
about house elves in general.





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Jun 19 21:21:35 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:21:35 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <4FE0DB3D.6070905@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <jrqqgv+aa89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192137

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andy Mills <andy.mills at ...> wrote:
>
> On 19/06/2012 20:10, Corey overton wrote:
> > Hey has anyone on this list listened to the Stephen Fry books of the
> > Potter books? I have a few of them and they're not bad. They have a
> > few different words than their American counterparts but they're not
> > bad.

AJM:
> I've actually listened to both the UK and US versions of the audio 
> books.  I live in the UK so obviously the wording of the UK versions 
> is not strange to me.  

Geoff:
Shouldn't be since they were written in UK English originally..
<vbeg, waving Union Jack kept over from the Jubilee celebrations>

Glad to hear from another UK resident; whereabouts are you?




From zucht413 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 19 20:59:19 2012
From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:59:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <4FE0DB3D.6070905@btinternet.com>
References: <SNT133-ds197ED92C2E47F369D5E76D5FF0@phx.gbl> <4FE0DB3D.6070905@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <1340139559.74858.YahooMailNeo@web112002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192138

On 19/06/2012 20:10, Corey overton wrote:
> Hey has anyone on this list listened to the Stephen Fry books of the
> Potter books? I have a few of them and they're not bad. They have a
> few different words than their American counterparts but they're not
> bad.


Z:
I haven't heard of the Stephen Fry books and have a question stemming
from this ignorance.  Did SF write the books and they are being read
by someone else or is SF reading the JKR books?

-Z

"I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Jun 19 22:04:33 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:04:33 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <1340139559.74858.YahooMailNeo@web112002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <jrqt1h+l8hp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192139

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Smith <zucht413 at ...> wrote:
>
> On 19/06/2012 20:10, Corey overton wrote:
> > Hey has anyone on this list listened to the Stephen Fry books of the
> > Potter books? I have a few of them and they're not bad. They have a
> > few different words than their American counterparts but they're not
> > bad.

Z:
> I haven't heard of the Stephen Fry books and have a question stemming
> from this ignorance.  Did SF write the books and they are being read
> by someone else or is SF reading the JKR books?

Geoff:
I think what Corey meant was: "has anyone on this list listened to the 
Stephen Fry **readings** of the Potter books?  He has been regularly 
called on to do the UK audio books. Isn't it Jim Dale who does the US 
equivalents?






From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 19 22:45:50 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:45:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <jrqt1h+l8hp@eGroups.com>
References: <jrqt1h+l8hp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds568786E18E34ED209E5D8D5FF0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 192140


Geoff:
I think what Corey meant was: "has anyone on this list listened to the
Stephen Fry **readings** of the Potter books? He has been regularly
called on to do the UK audio books. Isn't it Jim Dale who does the US
equivalents?


Corey:
Yes Jim Dale does the US version of the JKR books.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 20 04:19:41 2012
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 04:19:41 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <jrqq90+ofgj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jrrj0t+kjbo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192141

> > Crescent:
> > Yes, Dobby was introduced in COS, but not the fact that there were house
> > elves at Hogwarts (as far as I can recall.
> 
> Geoff:
> Yes, but the key sentence in Ceridwin's post was: "Of course, we didn't 
> hear about the elves before this book", which I took to be a statement
> about house elves in general.


Ceridwen:

I'd completely forgotten about Dobby in CoS when I wrote that - not my favorite character.  So, thanks, everyone, for answering!  :D




From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Wed Jun 20 06:33:23 2012
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 07:33:23 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <jrqqgv+aa89@eGroups.com>
References: <jrqqgv+aa89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4FE16EB3.3010306@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192142

<snip>

> AJM:
>> I've actually listened to both the UK and US versions of the audio
>> books. I live in the UK so obviously the wording of the UK versions
>> is not strange to me.

> Geoff:
> Shouldn't be since they were written in UK English originally..
> <vbeg, waving Union Jack kept over from the Jubilee celebrations>
>
> Glad to hear from another UK resident; whereabouts are you?

AJM:
I live in Yelverton, Devon - about 10 miles from Plymouth.  I'm 
actually quite surprised there aren't more UK fans on the list, 
especially as the books were written in the UK.

AJM



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Jun 20 17:24:48 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:24:48 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <4FE16EB3.3010306@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <jrt110+695e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192143

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andy Mills <andy.mills at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> > Shouldn't be since they were written in UK English originally..
> > <vbeg, waving Union Jack kept over from the Jubilee celebrations>
> >
> > Glad to hear from another UK resident; whereabouts are you?

AJM:
> I live in Yelverton, Devon - about 10 miles from Plymouth.  I'm 
> actually quite surprised there aren't more UK fans on the list, 
> especially as the books were written in the UK.

Geoff:
I suspect it's because the fanfic group probably caught on more 
rapidly over there in the US.

We're not a million miles apart - I'm in Minehead; I've been on the 
group raising (hopefully) interesting questions and thoughts about 
all matters Potter since 2003.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Jun 20 15:11:45 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <jrqt1h+l8hp@eGroups.com>
References: <1340139559.74858.YahooMailNeo@web112002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <jrqt1h+l8hp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1340205105.48498.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192144

Geoff:
> I think what Corey meant was: "has anyone on this list listened to
> the Stephen Fry **readings** of the Potter books?  He has been
> regularly called on to do the UK audio books. Isn't it Jim Dale who
> does the US equivalents?

June:
Yes Geoff, it was Jim Dale who read the American version. I am in
Canada and have listened to both versions and they were very well
read by both. We get the British version of the books here but the
American version of the audio books, but when I head that Stephen
Fry read the British version, I had to get it because I think he is
just a brilliant actor.






From bpmull at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 06:40:29 2012
From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <jrqqgv+aa89@eGroups.com>
References: <4FE0DB3D.6070905@btinternet.com> <jrqqgv+aa89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1340260829.14779.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192145

I have also listened to both sets of audio books and own both the Scholastic (USA) and Bloomsbury (UK) editions.
?
There are a few differences in wording, but nothing major. Both are excellent. I am American, but working abroad -- that's?how I ended up with?both.

Dr Bruce P. Mull
Professor of Computer Science
Professor of Mathematics

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bpmull at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 06:47:06 2012
From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <jrrj0t+kjbo@eGroups.com>
References: <jrqq90+ofgj@eGroups.com> <jrrj0t+kjbo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1340261226.15971.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192146

Ceridwen:

I'd completely forgotten about Dobby in CoS when I wrote that - not my favorite character.  So, thanks, everyone, for answering!  :D

Bruce:
Aaaaw. How could you not like the little pest? After all he tried to injure Harry in so many ways. I just knew when Harry freed him that he would be back and as a Harry fan -- or in this case the full word applies fanatic, after all Dobby never did anything half-way.

Dr Bruce P. Mull
Professor of Computer Science
Professor of Mathematics





From bpmull at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 06:42:26 2012
From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <1340139559.74858.YahooMailNeo@web112002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT133-ds197ED92C2E47F369D5E76D5FF0@phx.gbl> <4FE0DB3D.6070905@btinternet.com> <1340139559.74858.YahooMailNeo@web112002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1340260946.23036.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192147

Z:
I haven't heard of the Stephen Fry books and have a question stemming 
from this ignorance.  Did SF write the books and they are being read 
by someone else or is SF reading the JKR books?

Bruce:
Stephen Fry read the UK editions of the JKR books. Jim Dale read the USA editions of the JKR books.

Dr Bruce P. Mull
Professor of Computer Science
Professor of Mathematics





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Jun 22 20:28:53 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:28:53 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <1340261226.15971.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <js2ki5+27nl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192148

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bruce Mull <bpmull at ...> wrote:

Ceridwen: 
> I'd completely forgotten about Dobby in CoS when I wrote that - not my favorite character.  So, thanks, everyone, for answering!  :D

 Bruce:
> Aaaaw. How could you not like the little pest? 

Geoff:
Quite easily....

Bruce:
After all he tried to injure Harry in so many ways. 

Geoff:
But that's the whole point. He didn't *try* to injure Harry. 
He just did manage or nearly manage to hurt him:

'"Not kill you, sir, never kill you!" said Dobby, shocked, "Dobby wants 
to save Harry Potter's life..."'
(COS "The Rogue Bludger" p.133 UK edition`)

'"Harry Potter freed Dobby!" said the elf shrilly...
..."Least I could do, Dobby," said Harry grinning, "Just promise never 
to try and save my life again."'
(COS "Dobby's Reward" p.249 IUK edition)

He was a blithering idiot, absolutely cack-handed at trying to save 
Harry and seemed, certainly in his earlier interaction, to be an accident 
looking for somewhere to happen!







From vikingwoman at shaw.ca  Fri Jun 22 19:27:05 2012
From: vikingwoman at shaw.ca (Charla Mason)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:27:05 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <1340260946.23036.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <js2gu9+udls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192149

> Z:
>> I haven't heard of the Stephen Fry books and have a question
>> stemming from this ignorance.  Did SF write the books and they
>> are being read by someone else or is SF reading the JKR books?
>
> Bruce:
> Stephen Fry read the UK editions of the JKR books. Jim Dale read
> the USA editions of the JKR books.


Hi Bruce,
Both Stephen Fry and Jim Dale(both British) are audio book readers
for JKR books.  Both are great; I too live in Canada.  I find some
of the changes made for American readers rather loses the British
feel that too is so charming about the wizard world.
For those not familiar with British terms try this site.
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/a.htm

 Kind Regards,

    Charla
  Victoria BC, Canada



From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Jun 24 14:43:43 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:43:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <js2gu9+udls@eGroups.com>
References: <1340260946.23036.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <js2gu9+udls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1340549023.10639.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192150

Charla:

Hi Bruce,
Both Stephen Fry and Jim Dale(both British) are audio book readers
for JKR books.  Both are great; I too live in Canada.  I find some
of the changes made for American readers rather loses the British
feel that too is so charming about the wizard world.
For those not familiar with British terms try this site.
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/a.htm

JuneT:
I could not agree with you more Charla. I too think it loses the british feel in the american version. I have family in Derby and am very familar with the british slang. Try using it at work or around friends some time. I get quite the laugh out of watching them try to figure out what I just said lol.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi at heidi8.com  Sun Jun 24 22:32:30 2012
From: heidi at heidi8.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:32:30 -0400
Subject: Ascendio Registration Closes Tomorrow!!
Message-ID: <CA+9A26OBHY2nQNJ9yY6O1zygi+zm05sP+m8XJeX7dXkOzrf1iw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192151

About ten years ago, a group of HPfGU members decided to organize a
fancon in Orlando, Florida. Our plans became Nimbus - 2003, which was
the first of so many fantastic fan-created, fan-run, not-for-profit
events where Harry Potter fans could gather to discuss the books in
person, in formal programming sessions and in casual meetups in
restaurants, bars, Starbucks cafes and Common Rooms. We've played
Quidditch in ballrooms and in the water, we've dressed in costumes on
the streets of Hogsmeade, we hosted the first Wizard Rock concert and
saw Chris Rankin kidnapped by Death Eaters in 2005 and Dementors in
2008. We Wrocked Around the Rock, had Christian Coulson write in our
diaries, liveblogged analyses of geography, alchemy, nomenclature,
spells and whether Snape loved Lily (granted, that was in 2003 - we
did not know yet!. We mourned Sirius Black and Albus Dumbledore and
Dobby - and Snape - and watched deleted scenes from Chamber of Secrets
while sitting in inflatable armchairs. We sat on the floor to watch
Team StarKid acoustically perform Going Back to Hogwarts despite all
the ladies in the cast being absent, and we toasted with Butterbeer
made with liquor, or whipped cream, or soda in all the years before
the WWoHP opened.

Now we're having our final Harry Potter fancon, back in Orlando - but
at Universal this time, at the Loews Portofino Bay Resort and the
Wizarding World of Harry Potter - and registration closes tomorrow,
for the event begins two weeks from Thursday!

We hope you join us! The website is at http://hp2012.org - but you
have to register by tomorrow if you want to be able to attend all of
Ascendio, including the amazing Welcome and Leaving Feasts! The Full
Registration price is $250, but you can also get single-day passes,
which are $50 for Thursday, and $75 for Friday or Saturday. Night of a
Thousand Wizards tickets get you into Islands of Adventure from 2 PM
on Thursday, July 12, and include a $20 dinner voucher, and admission
to our private event in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter until 1 in
the morning!

Hotel rooms may still be available at the Portofino Bay Resort from
$210+tax per night, a considerable savings from the standard rates for
mid-July.

Every wrock concert, formal programming session, pick-up Quidditch
game, costuming event, craft faire shopping experience, HP film cast
member autograph session, Common Room meetup, Art Gallery viewing,
sponsor-hosted reception, fanfilm, fanvid, fanfic reading,
fan-performed show (except WXWXW) and dance is included with a Full
registration - and so are our two feasts! If you missed the menus when
we posted them earlier this week, you can heck them out here -
http://hp2012.org/?p=2820 - but we can't be responsible if you read
them while you're hungry!

We're looking forward to Ascendio with a sense of joy - and with some
sadness as it'll be our final HPEF fancon. Some of us started working
on our first HPEF event ten years ago this month, when we started
planning Nimbus - 2003, which took place in Orlando in mid-July of
that year. As we close the door on this aspect of our Harry Potter
fandom experience, we want to share it all with you.

So register today (or tomorrow) and we'll see you in July!

If you have any questions, feel free to email me directly!


Best,
Heidi from Team Ascendio
http://hp2012.org



From dehippern at ns.sympatico.ca  Mon Jun 25 02:23:56 2012
From: dehippern at ns.sympatico.ca (DenEde)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 23:23:56 -0300
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizar
Message-ID: <4FE7CBBC.4060703@ns.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 192152

> Bruce:
Aaaaw. How could you not like the little pest? After all he tried to 
> injure Harry in so many ways. I just knew when Harry freed him that 
he would be back and as a Harry fan -- or in this case the full word 
> applies fanatic, after all Dobby never did anything half-way.


DenEde: 
I too love Dobby, Dr. Bruce. He represents innocence in many ways. 
His death was shattering.






From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 25 03:27:52 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:27:52 -0500
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizar
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds7FBA4E2A2A01C20BF7565D5E10@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 192153

You're right about Dobby's death being bad. But I think it gave Harry
even more motivation to stop Voldemort. Even Bellatrix killed Dobby
she was after all one of Voldemort's followers. So that's what I
think. One more thing I think another reason he did the burying with
a shovel instead of magic is because I think he was secretly proud of
Muggles. Not of the Dursleys but maybe just a little grateful of what
the Dursleys taught him.

Corey






From seufererfamily at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 12:00:51 2012
From: seufererfamily at gmail.com (subtle_simmer)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:00:51 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <1340549023.10639.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <js9jtj+4ogf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192154

> Charla:
> Both Stephen Fry and Jim Dale(both British) are audio book readers
> for JKR books.  Both are great; I too live in Canada.  I find some
> of the changes made for American readers rather loses the British
> feel that too is so charming about the wizard world. <snip>

subtle_simmer:
I wanted to add my .02 to this discussion.  I'm a bit "Potter
obsessed" even now.  I have all the books in both the U.S. and U.K.
editions and all of them in both Jim Dale and Stephen Fry's audiobook
editions.

There are things I love about all of them.

However - if I were to make a recommendation for just one of the two
audio versions, I would have to say I prefer Jim Dale's.  Even though
there are a few terms 'lost in translation' - trainers vs sneakers,
jumper vs sweater and so on, Jim Dale does a better job, over-all,
with the vocals in my opinion.  Indeed, it's not just my opinion - he
won a Guinness Book of World Records award for the most unique voices
by one person for his reading of Order of the Phoenix, where he
created (I believe - might be off on the number) 110 distinct voices.

What's amazing to me is that he carries those voices through each of
the seven books.  Arthur Weasley is instantly identifiable as Arthur
Weasley (except for one accidental glitch-spot in book 5 where he
speaks one sentence in Vernon Dursley's voice).  Phineas Nigellus
also wasn't quite 'right' from book 5 to book 7, but I think only a
true obsessive would notice that.  Over all, I find that it greatly
enhances the listening experience and really makes it come to life.

Additionally, whenever there is a 'song' in the book, Jim Dale makes
up a tune and sings it!!  (Or I suppose the production editors made
up the tune and then he sings it?)  The Hogwarts song, Harry's
singing valentine, Weasley is our King - it's great.  Stephen Fry
just reads those.

Stephen also does vocal variations, but his are not as clearly
distinct as Jim Dale's.  His voice is naturally a bit deeper or
something, there is not as broad of a range.  He doesn't sing
anything.

However, as a die-hard Snape fan, I think Stephen's "Snape" voice is
better than Jim's and his Lucius Malfoy is much more suave. :)

I do love them both, but if I could only have one to my 'stranded
desert island', it would be Jim Dale's.




From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Mon Jun 25 17:36:45 2012
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:36:45 +0100
Subject: HP audio books
Message-ID: <4FE8A1AD.8090907@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192155

Further to the conversation regarding the two versions of the HP audio 
books, I found this link today which gives a short sample from both 
versions.  It's the final scene between Harry and Voldemort in DH.  For 
anyone who hasn't had an opportunity to hear both versions of the books, 
this will give you some idea of what they sound like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJobfh62WAo

AJM



From bpmull at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 26 05:15:15 2012
From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 22:15:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <js9jtj+4ogf@eGroups.com>
References: <1340549023.10639.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <js9jtj+4ogf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1340687715.54257.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192156

> subtle_simmer:
...
?
However - if I were to make a recommendation for just one of the two
audio versions, I would have to say I prefer Jim Dale's.
?
...


Bruce:
I agree whole-heartedly. It is too bad he didn't do the UK versions, with Stephen Fry doing Severus Snape and Lucius Malfoy. That would have been great!

Dr Bruce P. Mull
Professor of Computer Science
Professor of Mathematics






From bpmull at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 26 05:09:41 2012
From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 22:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Twelve, Goblet of Fire: The Triwizar
In-Reply-To: <4FE7CBBC.4060703@ns.sympatico.ca>
References: <4FE7CBBC.4060703@ns.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1340687381.24561.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192157

> DenEde: 
> I too love Dobby, Dr. Bruce. He represents innocence in many ways. 
> His death was shattering.

Bruce:
I agree. By the final book he was a very nice character and I was very sad that JKR decided to sacrifice him. It also was tragic about Hedwig.

Actually, I was more upset about Hedwig than I was about Dumbledore -- it always seemed that Dumbledore would have to die before Harry could come into his own.

Back to Topic: It seemed strange, knowing how Harry felt about fame, that Ron would believe him capable of putting his name in the Goblet of Fire. I'm sure it stems from the fact that he was always in the shadow -- of his brothers and of Harry -- and he was a little jealous of Harry's fame.

Dr Bruce P. Mull
Professor of Computer Science
Professor of Mathematics




From old_fat_fil at yahoo.com.au  Tue Jun 26 11:10:10 2012
From: old_fat_fil at yahoo.com.au (Phil)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:10:10 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling's new web site
Message-ID: <jsc5ai+8icb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192158

Is it only me or do others lament the passing of JK Rowling's old web site. It took me months to memorize my WOMBAT test results password and the amount of hidden detail on the site complemented the books much better than her present one its not that we all don't appreciate the Pottermore site but her new JKRowling.com site is very dull and to delete her old site completely is just vandalism in my view. Well maybe not vandalism but very sad.
 Maybe she doesn't know maybe she is so busy with her new book and Pottermore and every thing that someone in IT has just decided to delete it. Maybe she will be just as sad as us when she finds out.
 After all it's part of history that site and so much canon will be lost if it just disappears.

fil




From lkotur at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 26 23:41:48 2012
From: lkotur at yahoo.com (lkotur)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:41:48 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling's new web site
In-Reply-To: <jsc5ai+8icb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jsdhbs+r1m6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192159



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <old_fat_fil at ...> wrote:
>
> Is it only me or do others lament the passing of JK Rowling's old web site. It took me months to memorize my WOMBAT test results password and the amount of hidden detail on the site complemented the books much better than her present one it's not that we all don't appreciate the Pottermore site but her new JKRowling.com site is very dull and to delete her old site completely is just vandalism in my view. Well maybe not vandalism but very sad.
>  <snip>


You're right, new sight does the hoover, Dyson and Oreck all in one!

Larry



From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Jun 27 12:44:24 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:44:24 -0400
Subject: Deaths in the Series
Message-ID: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192160

Another post made me think about a general question for discussion: the 
many deaths in the Harry Potter series, onstage and offstage.

Doing this with numbered questions (like the listelves)....

1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character, then 
killing the character off (most blatantly with Cedric, but certainly 
with others). Which character's death upset you the most (and why)?

2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on (most 
notably, the death of Harry Potter's parents). Some were a little more 
subtle. What were some of the deaths you considered to be necessary for 
the story (and, of course, why)?

3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the deaths 
were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that JKR went 
overboard in some cases, killing characters just for the sake of adding 
to the death tolls. Which character's death do you consider to be the 
most gratuitous (and, most importantly, why?).

To avoid short-circuiting the subject, I'll hold off on my own choices 
for a day or so.

Bart



From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Wed Jun 27 17:49:11 2012
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 18:49:11 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
References: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <4FEB4797.1050303@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192161

On 27/06/2012 13:44, Bart Lidofsky wrote:
> Another post made me think about a general question for discussion: the
> many deaths in the Harry Potter series, onstage and offstage.
>
> Doing this with numbered questions (like the listelves)....
>
> 1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character, then
> killing the character off (most blatantly with Cedric, but certainly
> with others). Which character's death upset you the most (and why)?
>

AJM:

I think the death that upset me most was Dobby.  Like many others here, 
when he was first introduced I found him rather annoying but as the 
books went on he became less so and was always there to help Harry when 
he most needed help.  The way he died, rescuing Harry and his friends, 
was just so sad.

> 2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on (most
> notably, the death of Harry Potter's parents). Some were a little more
> subtle. What were some of the deaths you considered to be necessary for
> the story (and, of course, why)?
>

AJM:

Difficult one.  I always thought Dumbledore would die at some point, 
although I thought it would probably be in the last book.  It's 
difficult though to say whether most of the deaths were actually 
necessary for the story.  Yes, the story would have been different in 
some places if the deaths hadn't taken place, but whether or not the 
deaths were absolutely necessary to the story is a difficult question to 
answer.


> 3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the deaths
> were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that JKR went
> overboard in some cases, killing characters just for the sake of adding
> to the death tolls. Which character's death do you consider to be the
> most gratuitous (and, most importantly, why?).
>

AJM:

I really don't think both Lupin and Tonks need to have died, one could 
have survived.  I think the only reason she did that was to mirror what 
happened to Harry.  Killing both of them meant that Teddy was in a 
similar situation to Harry, except of course he didn't have to go and 
live with a horrible family of muggles.

AJM



From vikingwoman at shaw.ca  Wed Jun 27 01:53:08 2012
From: vikingwoman at shaw.ca (Charla Mason)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 01:53:08 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
Message-ID: <jsdp24+vf8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192162

Hi Group,
I have read the books and watched the movies many times..  And for
the most part I think the movies captured the books very well except
the last movie.

In the books Harry repaired his broken wand and restored the elder
wand with Dumbledore.

Why in the movie did they have Harry break the Elder wand and throw
it away??

It seemed very short sighted for the film makers if the wanted to
make more films and why so different from the book?

The sending of the children off to school in the 19 year epilogue
really whet my desire to see how the children would do and feed my
love for more Harry Potter !!!   Any thoughts?

    Charla


Elf note:  A reminder to the group, please make sure you're comparing
canon to movie as Charla has done here; any posts that discuss the
movies alone should please be made to our Movie group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-Movie
Thanks, everyone!



From sherriola at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 00:58:04 2012
From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 18:58:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
References: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <02bc01cd54c9$146fbfc0$3d4f3f40$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192163

Bart began an interesting topic, and one I've thought about often over the
years. Bart's questions and my answers.

Bart
1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character, then 
killing the character off (most blatantly with Cedric, but certainly 
with others). Which character's death upset you the most (and why)?

Sherry:
Sirius Black. I loved Sirius from the first moment we met him in POA, and I
knew he wasn't a murderer from the beginning. I desperately wanted Harry to
have a parental figure who was all his, not the Weasleys, not Dumbledore,
but someone who was his parental figure. To this day, when I reread OOTP, I
stop when the kids go to the ministry. I cannot read of Sirius dying.

Bart
2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on (most 
notably, the death of Harry Potter's parents). Some were a little more 
subtle. What were some of the deaths you considered to be necessary for 
the story (and, of course, why)?

Sherry:
Dumbledore. In the typical way of such books, the wise old mentor had to die
so that Harry could go on and finish his task without guidance. Also maybe
Snape. I don't like Snape, but I have to say that his life was full of
sorrow, and he spent years being trusted by none as a spy. I think his death
was necessary, because for one thing, it really showed, almost more than
anything else, the depravity of Voldemort. Also because, of course, he had
to give Harry the memories.

Bart
3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the deaths 
were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that JKR went 
overboard in some cases, killing characters just for the sake of adding 
to the death tolls. Which character's death do you consider to be the 
most gratuitous (and, most importantly, why?).


Sherry
Fred Weasley. That was horrible, and to me totally unnecessary. Why kill
Fred? If she thought she had to kill a Weasley, why not someone like
Charlie, a Weasley we didn't know very well. Taking Fred from George was
just awful and cruel.

I also thought the death of Tonks was unnecessary, and since we didn't get
to see any of Teddy's life, the supposed reason being that it is like Harry
and that Teddy could grow up quite differently, doesn't really matter.


Thanks for bringing up this topic Bart!

Sherry




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 28 03:41:40 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 03:41:40 -0000
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <02bc01cd54c9$146fbfc0$3d4f3f40$@com>
Message-ID: <jsgjpk+sctd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192164

> Bart
> 1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character, then 
> killing the character off (most blatantly with Cedric, but certainly 
> with others). Which character's death upset you the most (and why)?
> 
> Sherry:
> Sirius Black. I loved Sirius from the first moment we met him in POA, and I
> knew he wasn't a murderer from the beginning. I desperately wanted Harry to
> have a parental figure who was all his, not the Weasleys, not Dumbledore,
> but someone who was his parental figure. To this day, when I reread OOTP, I
> stop when the kids go to the ministry. I cannot read of Sirius dying.

Alla:

Me too, I mean, I actually have not reread OOP in more than two years and do not really want to :). Sirius Black's death is not the only reason why I do not really want to, but it is certainly an important one.


> 
> Bart
> 2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on (most 
> notably, the death of Harry Potter's parents). Some were a little more 
> subtle. What were some of the deaths you considered to be necessary for 
> the story (and, of course, why)?
> 
> Sherry:
> Dumbledore. In the typical way of such books, the wise old mentor had to die
> so that Harry could go on and finish his task without guidance. Also maybe
> Snape. I don't like Snape, but I have to say that his life was full of
> sorrow, and he spent years being trusted by none as a spy. I think his death
> was necessary, because for one thing, it really showed, almost more than
> anything else, the depravity of Voldemort. Also because, of course, he had
> to give Harry the memories.

Alla:
Actually, while I said what I said above about Sirius' death, I think in JKR's story Sirius' death was necessary too. I think it was necessary for the same reason as Dumbledore's death was - no support and any help for Harry from adults, no parental affection, no nothing. Those are the laws of this genre, which JKR's claims to the contrary, I do not think she is subverted. Because of course it is possible to put a kid on the center stage and still leave adults there in some kind of role. Hunger games anyone? Avatar anyone? Although see below for another comparison with those books.

> 
> Bart
> 3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the deaths 
> were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that JKR went 
> overboard in some cases, killing characters just for the sake of adding 
> to the death tolls. Which character's death do you consider to be the 
> most gratuitous (and, most importantly, why?).
> 
> 
> Sherry
> Fred Weasley. That was horrible, and to me totally unnecessary. Why kill
> Fred? If she thought she had to kill a Weasley, why not someone like
> Charlie, a Weasley we didn't know very well. Taking Fred from George was
> just awful and cruel.
> 
> I also thought the death of Tonks was unnecessary, and since we didn't get
> to see any of Teddy's life, the supposed reason being that it is like Harry
> and that Teddy could grow up quite differently, doesn't really matter.

Alla:

I did not think any death was gratuitous, if nothing else but to show the randomness of people dying in wars. Could she make this point with fewer deaths? Of course. But to me that does not mean that it was gratuitous if that makes sense.

Again, Hunger games anyone? In comparison to Susan Collins, JKR is a fairy tale godmother lol. Definitely one learns everything in comparison, but yeah, I would call the author of Hunger Games quite merciless (good for her lol), JKR? Not anymore. I am not getting involved with the fandom of Hunger games, god forbid, but I certainly read a lot of reviews and spoilers before I mustered the courage to read those books and everybody around me was singing them praises


Sherry: 
> Thanks for bringing up this topic Bart!

Alla:

And from me as well :)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun 28 17:11:51 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:11:51 -0000
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jsi38n+bqfj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192165

Bart:
> Doing this with numbered questions (like the listelves)....
> 
> 1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character, then 
> killing the character off (most blatantly with Cedric, but certainly 
> with others). Which character's death upset you the most (and why)?

Pippin:
Snape, definitely, because I was so attached to him. But I would like to think his portrait was eventually installed in the Headmaster's Office, and so much of what made him entertaining lives on.

> 
> 2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on (most 
> notably, the death of Harry Potter's parents). Some were a little more 
> subtle. What were some of the deaths you considered to be necessary for 
> the story (and, of course, why)?
 
> 3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the deaths 
> were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that JKR went 
> overboard in some cases, killing characters just for the sake of adding 
> to the death tolls. Which character's death do you consider to be the 
> most gratuitous (and, most importantly, why?).
> 

Pippin:
I don't think any of the deaths were gratuitous in the sense that they are just there for entertainment purposes, like targets in a video game or victims in a horror movie. I think they are all there to show how wrong young Dumbledore was to think he could have a war in which no more force was used than was necessary.

The trouble is, as Harry discovered, that  people  in extreme situations cannot be counted on  to use only the force that is necessary. They will use all the force that they have.

Pippin







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun 28 17:38:24 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:38:24 -0000
Subject: The Elder wand --  Book vs movie
In-Reply-To: <jsdp24+vf8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jsi4qg+vkon@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192166



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Charla Mason" <vikingwoman at ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Group,
> I have read the books and watched the movies many times..  And for
> the most part I think the movies captured the books very well except
> the last movie.
> 
> In the books Harry repaired his broken wand and restored the elder
> wand with Dumbledore.
> 
> Why in the movie did they have Harry break the Elder wand and throw
> it away??
> 
> It seemed very short sighted for the film makers if the wanted to
> make more films and why so different from the book?

Pippin:
I don't think JKR restored the wand to Dumbledore's tomb so that it would be available for a sequel. I think the idea is that it would rest there unused until Harry died unconquered, which, in the books, was the only way to break the power of the wand. 

If it could have been broken like an ordinary wand, Dumbledore would have done so, IMO.  But the point is made (in the books) that the Hallows are unusually durable magical objects. Notice that the Resurrection Stone functions perfectly well despite being cracked by the Sword of Gryffindor, and the cloak shows no sign of wear despite all the adventures it's been on  and its many hundreds of years, though Ron's and Lupin's robes are frayed and shabby with age. 

So the film makers were following JKR's general plan, IMO, to have Harry reject using the wand and put it beyond reach,  but made the point in a more dramatic and visual fashion. 

There has been a lot of debate on this list about whether Harry really did the right thing by choosing not to use the wand. By breaking the wand, the filmmakers finesse the issue of whether it was really right for Dumbledore to use it, and if so, why not Harry? But I think Harry considered  that Dumbledore had been a  safer guardian than Harry would be because unlike Harry, Dumbledore had never really wanted to kill.

Pippin





From zucht413 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 28 17:44:49 2012
From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:44:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <jsi38n+bqfj@eGroups.com>
References: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com> <jsi38n+bqfj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1340905489.60120.YahooMailNeo@web112009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I think I'll take a shot at this...
?
> Bart:
1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character, then?
killing the character off (most blatantly with Cedric, but certainly?
with others). Which character's death upset you the most (and why)?

Z: Dobby, because he was pure innocence.

> Bart:
2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on (most?
notably, the death of Harry Potter's parents). Some were a little
more?subtle. What were some of the deaths you considered to be
necessary for?the story (and, of course, why)?
?
Z:
I think Cedric's death was necessary. The ministry's interference
would have hard to justify with two witnesses.? And the Harry/Cho
interaction would not have happened.

> Bart:
3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the deaths?
were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that JKR went?
overboard in some cases, killing characters just for the sake of
adding?to the death tolls. Which character's death do you consider to
be the?most gratuitous (and, most importantly, why?).
?
Z:
Dobby and Tonks, and didn't a Patil die??? The Patils were window
dressing for the most part.? Dobby still accomplished his rescue.?
And Tonks - I just loved the fun loving character.

One thing that bothered me was the lack of Weasleys (except George,
or was it Fred... I can never keep them straight) dying.? Think
about, Bill an Charlie had to be strong magic users, the twins would
probably be easily distracted trying to be clever, Arther and Percy
were pencil pushers, two students and a middle aged housewife.? Nine
of them and only one death?? What are the odds.

?
-Z

"I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore










From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jun 28 20:43:02 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:43:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <1340905489.60120.YahooMailNeo@web112009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com> <jsi38n+bqfj@eGroups.com> <1340905489.60120.YahooMailNeo@web112009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FECC1D6.6010407@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192168

On 6/28/2012 1:44 PM, Scott Smith wrote:
> One thing that bothered me was the lack of Weasleys (except George,
> or was it Fred... I can never keep them straight) dying. Think
> about, Bill an Charlie had to be strong magic users, the twins would
> probably be easily distracted trying to be clever, Arther and Percy
> were pencil pushers, two students and a middle aged housewife. Nine
> of them and only one death? What are the odds.
Bart:
     Remember what I said about JKR's knack of making you care for a 
character, and then killing the character off? Well, here's a place she 
cheated (although she had written that she wanted to see Arthur bite the 
dust, and gave him a last-minute reprieve). Because, although we grew to 
care about Fred and George, I cannot recall a single thing in canon that 
would enable us to differentiate between them. I have known a number of 
identical twins in my life, and, no matter how friendly they were with 
each other, they were all sufficiently different in personality that 
there was never a real problem telling the difference. To the point 
where many of us don't even remember which one got killed. Essentially, 
from the point of view of the reader, they were a single character in 
two bodies. So, by killing one of them, JKR gets to kill a Weasley 
without actually killing one.

     I HOPE someone will prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

     Bart






From shaun.hately at bigpond.com  Fri Jun 29 00:36:48 2012
From: shaun.hately at bigpond.com (Shaun Hately)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:36:48 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FECC1D6.6010407@moosewise.com>
References: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com> <jsi38n+bqfj@eGroups.com> <1340905489.60120.YahooMailNeo@web112009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FECC1D6.6010407@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <4FECF8A0.6060109@bigpond.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192169

On 6/29/2012 6:43 AM, Bart Lidofsky wrote:

> I have known a number of
> identical twins in my life, and, no matter how friendly they were with
> each other, they were all sufficiently different in personality that
> there was never a real problem telling the difference. To the point
> where many of us don't even remember which one got killed. Essentially,
> from the point of view of the reader, they were a single character in
> two bodies. So, by killing one of them, JKR gets to kill a Weasley
> without actually killing one.
>
> I HOPE someone will prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

Actually, I looked at a few years ago and came to the conclusion that 
the two of them were more distinct than I realised. If you go through 
the books and look closely at the scenes where both of them are present, 
Fred is nearly always dominant over George. He instigates things and 
George backs him up.

I can't find my notes at that at the moment, but I've had a look around 
the web and this:

http://hpcompanion.com/essays/fredgeorge/

actually matches them fairly closely from what I can remember.

To me, this makes Fred's death particularly poignant.





From zucht413 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 29 03:26:37 2012
From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:26:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FECF8A0.6060109@bigpond.com>
References: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com> <jsi38n+bqfj@eGroups.com> <1340905489.60120.YahooMailNeo@web112009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FECC1D6.6010407@moosewise.com> <4FECF8A0.6060109@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <1340940397.21122.YahooMailNeo@web112014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192170

On 6/29/2012 6:43 AM, Bart Lidofsky wrote:
> I can't find my notes at that at the moment, but I've had a look
> around the web and this:
>
> http://hpcompanion.com/essays/fredgeorge/
>
> actually matches them fairly closely from what I can remember.
>
> To me, this makes Fred's death particularly poignant.


Z:
I checked the site out, talk about having too much time on your
hands!  It's a very good site and covers more about the series
than just the twins.

-Z

"I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore



From lynde4 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 04:15:37 2012
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:15:37 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FECF8A0.6060109@bigpond.com>
References: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
	<jsi38n+bqfj@eGroups.com>
	<1340905489.60120.YahooMailNeo@web112009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4FECC1D6.6010407@moosewise.com>
	<4FECF8A0.6060109@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iNemHikm3Ua6inTHRDeZw1iqP8i3CAwsZh5nGeLEm7rxg@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192171

> **
> On 6/29/2012 6:43 AM, Bart Lidofsky wrote:
> > I have known a number of identical twins in my life, and, no 
> > matter how friendly they were with each other, they were all 
> > sufficiently different in personality that there was never a 
> > real problem telling the difference. To the point where many 
> > of us don't even remember which one got killed. Essentially,
> > from the point of view of the reader, they were a single 
> > character in two bodies. So, by killing one of them, JKR gets
> > to kill a Weasley without actually killing one.
> >
> > I HOPE someone will prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

> Shaun:
> Actually, I looked at a few years ago and came to the conclusion 
> that the two of them were more distinct than I realised. If you 
> go through the books and look closely at the scenes where both 
> of them are present, Fred is nearly always dominant over George.
> He instigates things and George backs him up. <snip>


Lynda:

You are right. I did character files on all the HP characters a few 
years back and Fred was the more dominant of the two. His page (by 
the end of the series) was a good 2 pages or more. George's was much 
shorter.






From lynde4 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 03:59:42 2012
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:59:42 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
References: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iPGZzKUJj=uMH+7tq8bqHXc+pnNFi7xc-G1AvVBozubVQ@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192172

 **
> Bart:
> Another post made me think about a general question for discussion: 
> the many deaths in the Harry Potter series, onstage and offstage.
>
> Doing this with numbered questions (like the listelves)....
>
> 1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character, then
> killing the character off (most blatantly with Cedric, but certainly
> with others). Which character's death upset you the most (and why)?

Lynda:
Ohh! What fun!  Okay here goes. Character deaths upsetting me the 
most. There were three.

Hedwig, because she died in a cage, unable to fly and escape. Lupin 
and Tonks, because there was (IMHO) no real reason for their deaths. 
I know and understand JKR's reasoning, and her wish to have Teddy 
raised as a "happy orphan" but I don't really think there are any 
"happy orphans" and it just seems gratuitous to me for her to kill 
off Lupin and Tonks.

> Bart:
> 2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on (most
> notably, the death of Harry Potter's parents). Some were a little 
> more subtle. What were some of the deaths you considered to be 
> necessary for the story (and, of course, why)?

Lynda:
Well, Cedric, Scrimgeour, and Harry's parents; all to show the evil 
of Lord Thingy. And Lord Thingy of course. That's the whole point of 
the story. The destruction of Lord Thingy.

> Bart:
> 3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the deaths
> were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that JKR went
> overboard in some cases, killing characters just for the sake of 
> adding to the death tolls. Which character's death do you consider 
> to be the most gratuitous (and, most importantly, why?).


Lupin and Tonks. See # 1.

Lynda






From dehippern at ns.sympatico.ca  Fri Jun 29 13:26:08 2012
From: dehippern at ns.sympatico.ca (DenEde)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:26:08 -0300
Subject: Deaths in the Series
Message-ID: <4FEDACF0.9060004@ns.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 192173

I think the death of Colin Creevy was gratuitous and disturbed me. But 
it was the death of the Weasley twin and the death of Dobby that 
bothered me most.

DenEde


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From daveh47 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 20:22:58 2012
From: daveh47 at gmail.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 13:22:58 -0700
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <1340884109.660.7436.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1340884109.660.7436.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <4FEE0EA2.2080400@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192174

Sherry:
I also thought the death of Tonks was unnecessary, and since we didn't get
to see any of Teddy's life, the supposed reason being that it is like Harry
and that Teddy could grow up quite differently, doesn't really matter.

Dave:
I agree.  In general, I was very disappointed in the direction JKR went 
with Tonks -- She started out as a sprightly, somewhat sassy, 
"Moliere-Maid" type, which I loved.  But then she made Tonks into this 
tragic character whose intense (perhaps codependent) love for Remus 
trumped everything.  And we know from interviews that killing off Remus 
and Tonks was an eleventh-hour decision on JKR's part, in order to make 
some trivial contrast between Harry and Teddy which, as Sherry points 
out, has little or no impact on the reader.

Dave




From cresorchid at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 20:54:01 2012
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 15:54:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEE0EA2.2080400@gmail.com>
References: <1340884109.660.7436.m7@yahoogroups.com>
	<4FEE0EA2.2080400@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0MgiWzzkETtyS4g+RF0=hFSJwUwazp43-QOFMVYedB_ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192175

Dave:
I agree. In general, I was very disappointed in the direction JKR went
with Tonks -- She started out as a sprightly, somewhat sassy,
"Moliere-Maid" type, which I loved. But then she made Tonks into this
tragic character whose intense (perhaps codependent) love for Remus
trumped everything. And we know from interviews that killing off Remus
and Tonks was an eleventh-hour decision on JKR's part, in order to make
some trivial contrast between Harry and Teddy which, as Sherry points
out, has little or no impact on the reader.

Crescent:
I have to agree about the changes in Tonks' character. She is one of only
two strong females in the series and it is really sad to see that change
drastically, much less to see her die. Note, I don't count Molly Weasley as
a strong female in the series because she is such a stereotype. I suppose
McGonagall could have been a strong character, but we saw very little of
her and didn't really get to know her.

I also found Snape's death especially tragic?seeing as he dies just before
we find out he isn't' the horrid bastard (excuse my French) that we thought
him up to that point. At the same time, I've thought about his character.
He was at the end, just about 40 years old. He had an absolutely miserable
childhood and spent the 2nd 20 years or so of his life with one
goal?protecting Harry Potter and seeing Voldemort defeated (yes, that
sounds like two, but they are so intertwined they really can't be
separated). I can't see him adapting well to the cessation of this goal. He
wouldn't know what to do with himself and much of the wizarding world would
hate him?either for having been a spy for Dumbledore for all those years or
because they had to deal with his "bastard" persona for so long, many of
them as students at his mercy.

Crescent


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 29 23:11:07 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:11:07 -0000
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEE0EA2.2080400@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <jslcmb+3cdm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192176

> Sherry:
> I also thought the death of Tonks was unnecessary, and since we didn't get
> to see any of Teddy's life, the supposed reason being that it is like Harry
> and that Teddy could grow up quite differently, doesn't really matter.
> 
> Dave:
> I agree.  In general, I was very disappointed in the direction JKR went 
> with Tonks -- She started out as a sprightly, somewhat sassy, 
> "Moliere-Maid" type, which I loved.  But then she made Tonks into this 
> tragic character whose intense (perhaps codependent) love for Remus 
> trumped everything.  And we know from interviews that killing off Remus 
> and Tonks was an eleventh-hour decision on JKR's part, in order to make 
> some trivial contrast between Harry and Teddy which, as Sherry points 
> out, has little or no impact on the reader.



Alla:

Oooo you know what? If we look at this from this angle, I may have to agree that death of Tonks can be counted as gratuitous. I now remember that JKR may have mentioned it as a reason and sorry, does not fly with me. As Sherry said, my emotional attachment to Teddy pretty much equals zero - Teddy who, basically. I do not hate him or anything, but I did not have time to form any emotional attachment to him, so any similarities between him and Harry do not really work for me, do not have the same emotional power.

I guess I am used to looking at Tonks and Remus' deaths first of all together and just the proof of the cruelty of war, which takes out the best people often and randomly and of course for me Remus was also just another adult who loved Harry and we cannot have any of those left alive. Such a tiresome trope in this subgenre of fantasy if you ask me, but well known trope nevertheless.




From juli17 at aol.com  Sat Jun 30 00:09:16 2012
From: juli17 at aol.com (jules)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 00:09:16 -0000
Subject: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4FEB0028.3000008@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jslg3c+10kcj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192177



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Another post made me think about a general question for discussion: the 
> many deaths in the Harry Potter series, onstage and offstage.
> 
> Doing this with numbered questions (like the listelves)....
> 
> 1) JKR had a knack for getting you to care about a character, then 
> killing the character off (most blatantly with Cedric, but certainly 
> with others). Which character's death upset you the most (and why)?

Colin Creevey's death upset me the most. I'm not even sure why, maybe it was just the final straw in the line of deaths stretching from the beginning of DH. And he was so young, he shouldn't have been involved at all.

Which isn't the same as the death that made me the saddest--that was Snape's.

> 
> 2) Some deaths were pretty much required for the plot to go on (most 
> notably, the death of Harry Potter's parents). Some were a little more 
> subtle. What were some of the deaths you considered to be necessary for 
> the story (and, of course, why)?

Harry's parents, Sirius, and Dumbledore. In other words, all of Harry's direct mentors, who had to die so he could prevail as hero.

> 
> 3) And, of course, because people do die in wars, some of the deaths 
> were pretty much gratuitous. But it can be argued that JKR went 
> overboard in some cases, killing characters just for the sake of adding 
> to the death tolls. Which character's death do you consider to be the 
> most gratuitous (and, most importantly, why?).

Lupin and Tonks. Most of the students fight and survive, and even Fred's death was a freak accident. But Lupin--a werewolf, and Tonks--an Auror for god's sake!--are *both* taken down (almost simultaneously) by Death Eaters who hardly get a hair out of place in the process from the way we hear it. Puh-lease! And all to make Teddy a Harry-esque orphan, but with loving guardians rather than the nasty Dursleys. I'm still pissed.

Julie




From lynde4 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 03:57:51 2012
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 20:57:51 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deaths in the Series
In-Reply-To: <CAPyU+0MgiWzzkETtyS4g+RF0=hFSJwUwazp43-QOFMVYedB_ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1340884109.660.7436.m7@yahoogroups.com>
	<4FEE0EA2.2080400@gmail.com>
	<CAPyU+0MgiWzzkETtyS4g+RF0=hFSJwUwazp43-QOFMVYedB_ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iNeyRyjQ+n38_tghHovAzVL4D+OouoE0GFXgK_X8qv2cw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192178


> Dave:
> I agree. In general, I was very disappointed in the direction JKR went
> with Tonks -- She started out as a sprightly, somewhat sassy,
> "Moliere-Maid" type, which I loved. But then she made Tonks into this
> tragic character whose intense (perhaps codependent) love for Remus
> trumped everything. And we know from interviews that killing off Remus
> and Tonks was an eleventh-hour decision on JKR's part, in order to make
> some trivial contrast between Harry and Teddy which, as Sherry points
> out, has little or no impact on the reader.
>
> Crescent:
> I have to agree about the changes in Tonks' character. She is one of only
> two strong females in the series and it is really sad to see that change
> drastically, much less to see her die.


Lynda:

I have to disagree with the only 2 strong female characters statement. Not
counting Molly, for the same reasons you give of stereotyping, there is of
course Hermione. Luna is a strong female character, of course, although
young. Her strength shows itself through different processes than most
people's. McGonagall. I think I got to know her well enough throughout the
books to count her. Neville's grandmother, I think, counts as well. Tonks,
not so much, although had she lived, she may have come back to herself.
Bellatrix, definately was a strong female character. Not pleasant, truly
insane, and evil, but she was a strong character. The bad counts as much as
the good for this one, I think.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]