From thedossetts at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 01:22:25 2012
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 01:22:25 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jik6m0+ju0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jimj0h+qfkl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191859



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Nikkalmati: 
> > > The character who scares me the most is Umbridge, because she is so completely believable, I;m sure she exists in RL, and because she has no doubts or self-awareness.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Annemehr:
>
> The thing that might make Umbridge scary is that she has both the inclination and the power to force her point of view onto the lives of others.  Imagine if someone like this had authority over you.  Some of us, I'm sure, don't have to imagine too hard.
> 
> 
>
Pat:

I have to agree that Umbridge is the scariest character. My problem with her is that she not  only has the inclination to "force her point of view", as Annemehr says, she also is in a position to see that whatever she wants will happen. It's the power (or abuse of it) that is so scary to me. Anyone in a position of power has the potential to abuse it; Umbridge has gone so far beyond that. And what makes her even scarier is that her enjoyment of abuse is obvious to everyone who is in a position to be abused by her. Unfortunately, those who could throttle her never see her dark side, i.e. Fudge. Lockhart doesn't really take the time to enjoy his abuses - it's all about him, really, not what it does to others.  Yes, he's more than willing to get people out of the way, but he doesn't seem to gloat over their loss (of memory or whatever). I'm totally in agreement with the opinions expressed about Bellatrix - she has several screws loose. But this begs a question - what about Malfoy Senior? He is sorely tempted by "the dark side" - but at the end he seems to agree with his wife that family is the most important thing (not that I'd really ever trust him in a high position again. . . )

Back to Umbridge - to me she exemplifies the saying that power corrupts - and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Pat




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 12:36:52 2012
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 12:36:52 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jikllu+ak9k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jinqh4+1fcs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191864

 
> Geoff:
> in my view, Dawkins fits your description 
> of Umbridge in having the inclination to force his point of view and 
> would like more control in that area;<snip>

Annemehr:
Eh, no. Rather the opposite.

Geoff:
> 
> I did quote Lockhart and Percy W as coming within that description but 
> not quite up to Umbridge's standard - but on reflection, Lockhart shows 
> himself potentially to be a very dangerous man by his behaviour in the 
> Chamber of Secrets; he was fully prepared to sacrifice Ginny and 
> permanently damage Harry and Ron for his own ends.
>

Annemehr:
Percy I see as having been (until the last battle) misguided, but really trying to do the right thing.  And human egos in the family dynamic made things worse.

Lockhart is indeed *very* creepy.  Not in controlling people, but in the way he used them with no regard for them as people.  We saw the effect of the spell he aimed at Ron and Harry.  I wonder how it compares to the memory charms he inflicted on all those other people who "contributed" to his books.

Annemehr





From technomad at intergate.com  Thu Mar  1 19:07:18 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 13:07:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jinqh4+1fcs@eGroups.com>
References: <jinqh4+1fcs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20120301130718.1kjx7tdj40gwgc8s@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191865

Quoting annemehr <annemehr at yahoo.com>:

>
> Annemehr:
> Percy I see as having been (until the last battle) misguided, but   
> really trying to do the right thing.  And human egos in the family   
> dynamic made things worse.
>
I honestly couldn't blame Percy much; he _didn't_ have even Ron's  
level of information on what was going on, much less our level, and  
from his POV, what he did made fair sense.  And once the _coup d'etat_  
at the Ministry was a done deal, he was trapped.  I rather doubt he'd  
have been allowed to quit.

For that matter, he probably _had to_ look twice as loyal as anybody  
else.  His whole blood family was known to be on the other side, and  
if they noticed information leaking, or things going wrong, _guess  
who_ was going to be #1 on the "cruciate until confess" list?

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From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Thu Mar  1 07:36:00 2012
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 07:36:00 +0000
Subject: Which HP character scares you most?
In-Reply-To: <CAAVn2iNLDT=Aa75Fzu7Sw3eYiKT4WjYYQSTRgH4vB=DtFN7v2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFcnBz6csED=r2RUA16p+FCkr_9x4k9LBQ_=5nzJ4GyBRO7ijA@mail.gmail.com> <CAAVn2iNLDT=Aa75Fzu7Sw3eYiKT4WjYYQSTRgH4vB=DtFN7v2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F4F26E0.5050904@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191866

On 29/02/2012 19:24, Lynda Cordova wrote:
> Umbridge is scary because there are real people who are almost 
exactly like her and too many people do not have the resources to 
> stand up to her, much less stand against her.


AJM:
I think the character I hated most in the books was Umbridge.  
However, I think some of the scariest scenes in the books were those 
involving Nagini.  The one that always sticks in my mind is when the 
snake comes out of Bagshot's body at Godrics Hollow.  Of course, we 
need to remember that Nagini was under Voldemort's control, but even 
so I'd have to say that those scenes were probably the ones I found 
the scariest.

AJM



From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 23:39:32 2012
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 23:39:32 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <1330439700.15200.YahooMailNeo@web121304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <jip1bk+qv4c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191867


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, 
> 
> June:
> Ihad not responded to this before now because I could not think of
> an answer. I do agree that Umbridge is pretty scary only because
> there are people like her in real life, but when I really think about
> it, I think Bellatrix is the scariest because she is one crazy b--ch.
>
Sartoris22:

Because of Voldemort's family background, I feel some sympathy for him. Essentially, he seems a guy trying to get back at the father who abandoned him. Bellatrix, on the other hand, comes from privilege and seems to hate Muggles only for their difference, their inferiority, in her mind. Bellatrix gleefully kills Sirius, her own family, and apparently delights in murder. Even Voldemort might construe murder, in some way, as means to an end--the magical power of splitting the soul seven times. Bellatrix, however, seems a maniacal true believer. Of all the characters, she is the person I would most fear being alone with in a room. 




From technomad at intergate.com  Fri Mar  2 01:30:57 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 19:30:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jip1bk+qv4c@eGroups.com>
References: <jip1bk+qv4c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20120301193057.p01thcbkoccogo4o@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191868

Quoting sartoris <sartoris22 at yahoo.com>:

> Sartoris22:
>
> Because of Voldemort's family background, I feel some sympathy for   
> him. Essentially, he seems a guy trying to get back at the father   
> who abandoned him. Bellatrix, on the other hand, comes from   
> privilege and seems to hate Muggles only for their difference, their  
>  inferiority, in her mind. Bellatrix gleefully kills Sirius, her own  
>  family, and apparently delights in murder. Even Voldemort might   
> construe murder, in some way, as means to an end--the magical power   
> of splitting the soul seven times. Bellatrix, however, seems a   
> maniacal true believer. Of all the characters, she is the person I   
> would most fear being alone with in a room.
>
There's a lot more excuse for Voldemort than for Bellatrix.  Besides  
his abandonment issues and his raising in an orphanage (it wasn't  
apparently nearly as bad as fandom had speculated before we got to see  
it in D'dore's memories, but those places are no substitute for a  
normal or even nearly-normal family life) he could easily have  
inherited mental problems from the Gaunt side of his family.  I've  
wondered what a CAT scan would have made of young Tom Riddle's brain.   
Not to mention his mother, grandfather and uncle.

Bella, OTOH, seems to be a sick, sadistic person who causes pain and  
suffering merely for the thrills she gets from it.  It's appropriate  
that she was played by the same person who played Mrs. Lovett in the  
movie _Sweeney Todd,_ because the characters have a lot in common.   
Mrs. Lovett is a lot more evil, with a lot less excuse, than Sweeney  
Todd---he at least has the excuse that he was driven far over the edge  
by the treatment he got and the suffering he endured, while she's  
merely a greedy, callous woman who's perfectly willing to exploit a  
very mentally ill person and sign off on, if not commit with her own  
hands, serial murder of unoffending people just so she can make a  
success of her pie shop.  I can find pity in my heart for Sweeney, who  
can say with Dr. Jekyll:

"If I was the chief of sinners, I was also the chief of sufferers.   
Both sides of me were always in deadly earnest,"

but not a shred for Mrs. Lovett...and not a shred for Bella, either,  
who has far less excuse for her ravages than Voldemort ever did.

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From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 01:06:33 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:06:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jip1bk+qv4c@eGroups.com>
References: <jip1bk+qv4c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds9FBE0735FB99F59D5AE1BD56D0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191869

Yeah, I would hate to be in a room with Bellatrix. I'd hate the Crutiatus curse.

Corey.



From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  2 06:19:56 2012
From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 06:19:56 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds14398B025F5B2225E0536AD5610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191870



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Corey overton <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:
>
> >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12)
> >> Ebony AKA AngieJ:
> >> I think it bears discussing here. We are all adults (or close
> >> enough to it)--are there any aspects or characters in the Harry
> >> Potter books that creep you out?
> 

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but afer reading the entire series, Dumbledore has creeped me out. Certainly I can see why Umbridge or any of the "bad guys" would send a chill up people's spines, but they're supposed to do that. I've come away from the series as seeing Dumbledore as a puppet master - controlling Harry's early life, isolating himself, supremely confident in his own wisdom, not sharing important information with his allies, setting up puzzles to be solved and secrets to be ferreted out, rather than telling people everything he knows (what was the point of the Order??? Follow anything DD says without question?))

And conveniently being brought back into the story to continue the wise, old mentor act even after death. For someone who was held in such wide regard in the Wizard world, who could have asked for and been given any position he wanted after the first war with Voldemort, doesn't it seem odd that he wouldn't have gone to Azkaban to ask Sirius what the hell happened with the Potters?  But, why bother, since now he could control Harry's childhood, without any interference from a potentially pesky godfather?  Better to control everything he could and eliminate any potential obstacles.  

The bad guys are supposed to be bad. It's comfortable, and even pleasurable in a weird way, to be disturbed by them.  It's much more unsettling to find the chief good guy, the leader of the forces of light, to be morally suspect.

Marianne




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 02:47:37 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 02:47:37 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jis0o9+78v6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191871



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat4001" <zarleycat at ...> wrote:
> I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but afer reading the entire series, Dumbledore has creeped me out. Certainly I can see why Umbridge or any of the "bad guys" would send a chill up people's spines, but they're supposed to do that. I've come away from the series as seeing Dumbledore as a puppet master - controlling Harry's early life, isolating himself, supremely confident in his own wisdom, not sharing important information with his allies, setting up puzzles to be solved and secrets to be ferreted out, rather than telling people everything he knows (what was the point of the Order??? Follow anything DD says without question?)) <SNIP>

Alla:

You are definitely not alone though. I find Dumbledore to be the scariest creepiest character in the series myself. As you said, bad guys are supposed to be bad, yes, Voldemort was evil, but no matter that he committed some truly horrible evil, I very often imagined him as somebody who goes around, beats himself in the chest and screams, I am the evil, hear me ROAR, you know?

Dumbledore does not need to scream, he is able to make *everybody* to follow his commands, make black look like white and vice versa and at the end of the series poor Harry still worships his dead feet. Yep, I find him very scary and creepy and would not want to be in the vicinity of him no matter what.




From lynde4 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 19:31:14 2012
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:31:14 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com>
References: <SNT133-ds14398B025F5B2225E0536AD5610@phx.gbl>
	<jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iMFcAsPV-VrWt97mpgCiVF+vbx9soGWV7wm+fdt+xr0Yw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191872

Marianne:
> I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but afer reading the entire series,
> Dumbledore has creeped me out. Certainly I can see why Umbridge or any of
> the "bad guys" would send a chill up people's spines, but they're supposed
> to do that.
>




I went into reading the HP series thinking of it as the type of book in
which children are expected to solve puzzles on their own, without a lot of
(or any) help from adults. In this type of book, a "wise older mentor"
commonly arranges puzzles, sets up mysteries and acts as a type of puppet
master or guide but it is nearly mandated that the kids in the stories not
use adult help. As a part of their maturation process, the kids have to
solve the mysteries themselves. I knew, from my first reading of the first
chapter of SS that Dumbledore was indeed this type of character and within
the context of the series, it doesn't bother me. Because it was what Harry
had to learn and do and the way he had to do it within the context of the
overall story.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 20:04:18 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:04:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com>
References: <jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds20F67C967906A9BEA5FB7CD56D0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191873

Marianne:

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but afer reading the entire series, Dumbledore has creeped me out. Certainly I can see why Umbridge or any of the "bad guys" would send a chill up people's spines, but they're supposed to do that. I've come away from the series as seeing Dumbledore as a puppet master - controlling Harry's early life, isolating himself, supremely confident in his own wisdom, not sharing important information with his allies, setting up puzzles to be solved and secrets to be ferreted out, rather than telling people everything he knows (what was the point of the Order??? Follow anything DD says without question?))


Corey:

I really don't think Dumbledore is scary. He was trying to protect Harry as best he could. Yes maybe he could have done things a little different but I'd still prefer him to Umbridge. Oh and on a side note what do you guys think of Trelaney?




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 03:36:14 2012
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 03:36:14 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <CAAVn2iMFcAsPV-VrWt97mpgCiVF+vbx9soGWV7wm+fdt+xr0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <jis3je+le9b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191874



--Lynda
> 
> I went into reading the HP series thinking of it as the type of book in
> which children are expected to solve puzzles on their own, without a lot of
> (or any) help from adults. In this type of book, a "wise older mentor"
> commonly arranges puzzles, sets up mysteries and acts as a type of puppet
> master or guide but it is nearly mandated that the kids in the stories not
> use adult help. As a part of their maturation process, the kids have to
> solve the mysteries themselves. I knew, from my first reading of the first
> chapter of SS that Dumbledore was indeed this type of character and within
> the context of the series, it doesn't bother me. Because it was what Harry
> had to learn and do and the way he had to do it within the context of the
> overall story.
> 
> 
Sartoris22

I agree. Besides, when Harry "dies," it is Dumbledore he meets on the other side, and Dumbledore's soul, unlike Voldermort's which lies mangled in the corner, seems perfectly intact. At the very least, Dumbledore isn't accused of murder, by whatever judges such things in the magical world. And Dumbledore must keep a terrible secret--Harry is a horcrux--which must have been a horribly lonesome burden. Admittedly, I was infrequently annoyed by Dumbledore's lapses in knowledge or understanding, but the guy was often practically clairvoyant. I don't find Dumbledore creepy and would love to be in a room with him. Not only is he bloody brilliant but funny to boot. 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Mar  3 03:35:42 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:35:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds20F67C967906A9BEA5FB7CD56D0@phx.gbl>
References: <jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com> <SNT133-ds20F67C967906A9BEA5FB7CD56D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4F51918E.8010901@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191875

On 3/2/2012 3:04 PM, Corey overton wrote:
> Oh and on a side note what do you guys think of Trelaney?
>

Bart:
     JKR portrayed Cooking Sherry as one who had a genuine ability for 
prognostication, except that she didn't trust in her own abilities. One 
of the telling moments is when she's going down the hall, reading the 
cards, comes up with a 100% accurate statement, then discards it as too 
ridiculous.

     Bart




From thedossetts at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 14:44:07 2012
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 14:44:07 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <4F51918E.8010901@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jitann+6tg2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191876



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 3/2/2012 3:04 PM, Corey overton wrote:
> > Oh and on a side note what do you guys think of Trelaney?
> >
> 
> Bart:
>      JKR portrayed Cooking Sherry as one who had a genuine ability for 
> prognostication, except that she didn't trust in her own abilities. One 
> of the telling moments is when she's going down the hall, reading the 
> cards, comes up with a 100% accurate statement, then discards it as too 
> ridiculous.
> 
>      Bart
>

Pat:
 
Absolutely. I am rereading the series with my son, and it amazes me at just how prescient Trelawny really is. Not just in book 6 - all through the series. We are on Goblet of Fire right now, and of course every class she's telling Harry that "death is coming" - and it did, just not Harry's. Trelawny is the character who really has a gift - she just doesn't trust it enough, and tries too hard to second guess what she has seen and decide what exactly it means - when really, it isn't always up to the seer to say what it means. (see ancient Greece.)

Pat




From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Mar  3 16:40:19 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 11:40:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jis3je+le9b@eGroups.com>
References: <jis3je+le9b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F524973.1090300@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191877

On 3/2/2012 10:36 PM, sartoris wrote:
> I agree. Besides, when Harry "dies," it is Dumbledore he meets on the 
> other side, and Dumbledore's soul, unlike Voldermort's which lies 
> mangled in the corner, seems perfectly intact. At the very least, 
> Dumbledore isn't accused of murder, by whatever judges such things in 
> the magical world. And Dumbledore must keep a terrible secret--Harry 
> is a horcrux--which must have been a horribly lonesome burden. 
> Admittedly, I was infrequently annoyed by Dumbledore's lapses in 
> knowledge or understanding, but the guy was often practically 
> clairvoyant. I don't find Dumbledore creepy and would love to be in a 
> room with him. Not only is he bloody brilliant but funny to boot.

Bart:
     With Harry (and the story), DD had to play very close to the vest. 
As the leader of the opposition against Morty, who had a strong belief 
that Morty had NOT been killed during the attack on the Potters (as 
implied by the Prophecy), he had to be prepared for Morty's coming back, 
and had to figure out what it was that happened. He probably suspected a 
horcrux, but that wasn't confirmed (probably ruling out several other 
theories) until COS, and even then, multiple horcruxes, including Harry 
being one, was probably just one of several theories, and might not even 
have occurred to DD if it weren't for the Prophecy and evidence within 
Harry (such as the revelation that Harry was a parselmouth).

     Now, the point I am getting to is that, unless a possibility was 
eliminated, DD could not act in a way that would unduly complicate the 
solution to a plan. And, by the time Morty has come back, he has come to 
the following conclusions:

1) Harry is a horcrux.
2) In order for Morty to die, the horcrux must be destroyed.
3) The destruction of a horcrux normally involves destruction of the 
container.
4) The Prophecy implies that there is a way to destroy the horcrux 
without destroying Harry.
5) This way must be found.

     Everything DD does, from then on, is working towards #5. Note how 
DD stresses how important it is for Harry to learn occlumency (or 
however it's spelled), then, at the end of OOP, just drops it. This 
doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you consider that, if Harry had been 
able to develop the skill, he would be able to insulate himself from the 
Mortysoul, enabling it to be destroyed without killing him. But DD, upon 
seeing that Morty could not stand to connect to Harry, and realizing 
that Harry's personality precluded him from reaching the level of skill 
in occlumency necessary to completely insulate himself from the 
Mortysoul, a different solution had to be formulated.

     And that solution was, as I have said before, akin to a a real 
world fact: when a drunken driver gets into an accident with one or more 
other vehicles, the drunken driver often sustains the least injuries. 
This is due to the fact that, in accident situation, people's muscles 
usually tense up, holding the bones in place, so that the full force of 
the impact hits them. The drunk person's muscles are relaxed, so that 
the impact is more distributed, and less damage is done. For the horcux 
to be destroyed and Harry to live, he has to be completely relaxed at 
the time of the destruction. In order for this to happen, Harry must be 
absolutely willing to die; any concept that he might survive the 
encounter would paradoxically guarantee that he wouldn't. So, instead of 
telling Harry, "OK, you have to find and destroy the horcruxes, and 
after that, you need to let Morty kill you, but if you are absolutely, 
completely relaxed, you will survive", he had to get Harry in a mental 
state of willing to sacrifice himself; hence the complications of the DH.

     Bart



From ddankanyin at cox.net  Sat Mar  3 16:48:09 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 11:48:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
References: <jis3je+le9b@eGroups.com> <4F524973.1090300@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <28A5B4AD8F0D4229BEA47E02F3F84796@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 191878


From: "Bart Lidofsky" <bart at moosewise.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 11:40 AM

> Bart:
>     With Harry (and the story), DD had to play very close to the vest.
> As the leader of the opposition against Morty, who had a strong belief
> that Morty had NOT been killed during the attack on the Potters (as
> implied by the Prophecy), he had to be prepared for Morty's coming back,
> and had to figure out what it was that happened. He probably suspected a
> horcrux, but that wasn't confirmed (probably ruling out several other
> theories) until COS, and even then, multiple horcruxes, including Harry
> being one, was probably just one of several theories, and might not even
> have occurred to DD if it weren't for the Prophecy and evidence within
> Harry (such as the revelation that Harry was a parselmouth).
>
>     Now, the point I am getting to is that, unless a possibility was
> eliminated, DD could not act in a way that would unduly complicate the
> solution to a plan. And, by the time Morty has come back, he has come to
> the following conclusions:
>
> 1) Harry is a horcrux.
> 2) In order for Morty to die, the horcrux must be destroyed.
> 3) The destruction of a horcrux normally involves destruction of the
> container.
> 4) The Prophecy implies that there is a way to destroy the horcrux
> without destroying Harry.
> 5) This way must be found.
>
>     Everything DD does, from then on, is working towards #5. Note how
> DD stresses how important it is for Harry to learn occlumency (or
> however it's spelled), then, at the end of OOP, just drops it. This
> doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you consider that, if Harry had been
> able to develop the skill, he would be able to insulate himself from the
> Mortysoul, enabling it to be destroyed without killing him. But DD, upon
> seeing that Morty could not stand to connect to Harry, and realizing
> that Harry's personality precluded him from reaching the level of skill
> in occlumency necessary to completely insulate himself from the
> Mortysoul, a different solution had to be formulated.
>
>     And that solution was, as I have said before, akin to a a real
> world fact: when a drunken driver gets into an accident with one or more
> other vehicles, the drunken driver often sustains the least injuries.
> This is due to the fact that, in accident situation, people's muscles
> usually tense up, holding the bones in place, so that the full force of
> the impact hits them. The drunk person's muscles are relaxed, so that
> the impact is more distributed, and less damage is done. For the horcux
> to be destroyed and Harry to live, he has to be completely relaxed at
> the time of the destruction. In order for this to happen, Harry must be
> absolutely willing to die; any concept that he might survive the
> encounter would paradoxically guarantee that he wouldn't. So, instead of
> telling Harry, "OK, you have to find and destroy the horcruxes, and
> after that, you need to let Morty kill you, but if you are absolutely,
> completely relaxed, you will survive", he had to get Harry in a mental
> state of willing to sacrifice himself; hence the complications of the DH.
>

   I'm sorry for including the whole of this post, but I want to add that I 
wholeheartedly agree with it.  This is what I felt and believed as I read 
the series, both the first time and subsequent ones as well.   I've read it 
many times over the years.
  Dorothy 




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 13:14:23 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 07:14:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <4F51918E.8010901@moosewise.com>
References: <jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com> <SNT133-ds20F67C967906A9BEA5FB7CD56D0@phx.gbl> <4F51918E.8010901@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-DS21951C8EDC239D8E304565D5520@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191879

>> Corey:
>> Oh and on a side note what do you guys think of Trelawney?

> Bart:
> JKR portrayed Cooking Sherry as one who had a genuine ability for
> prognostication, except that she didn't trust in her own abilities.
One of the telling moments is when she's going down the hall, reading
the cards, comes up with a 100% accurate statement, then discards it
> as too ridiculous.


Corey:
Yeah, I guess that is kind of interesting isn't it. That old cooking
sherry is very good at predicting stuff.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sat Mar  3 21:12:02 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 21:12:02 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <4F524973.1090300@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jiu1f2+sv97@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191880

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

Bart:
> And that solution was, as I have said before, akin to a a real 
> world fact: when a drunken driver gets into an accident with one or more 
> other vehicles, the drunken driver often sustains the least injuries. 
> This is due to the fact that, in accident situation, people's muscles 
> usually tense up, holding the bones in place, so that the full force of 
> the impact hits them. The drunk person's muscles are relaxed, so that 
> the impact is more distributed, and less damage is done. For the horcux 
> to be destroyed and Harry to live, he has to be completely relaxed at 
> the time of the destruction. In order for this to happen, Harry must be 
> absolutely willing to die; any concept that he might survive the 
> encounter would paradoxically guarantee that he wouldn't. 

Geoff:
I feel I must disagree with you on this. This ties in with some of the
information which was revealed in hindsight at the last confrontation 
between Voldemort and Harry.

I agree that Harry had to go willingly to face Voldemort believing that 
he would be killed, but by now, Harry was already the Master of the 
Elder Wand and was also still protected by his mother's love. Therefore, 
Voldemort should not have been able to win the duel in the Forest. The 
only reasons why he was not totally defeated at this point was that (1) 
there were still Horcruxes existing after the one inside Harry was 
destroyed and (2) Harry did not counteract his spell by defending himself 
as he did in the Great Hall later where the Elder Wand's power "to perform 
as legend says it must perform for its rightful owner"@ is unleashed.

In these circumstances, Harry had to survive the encounter.

@ Voldemort speaking: DH "The Elder Wand" p.527 UK edition.




From kat7555 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 22:56:58 2012
From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 22:56:58 -0000
Subject: Which HP character scares you most?
In-Reply-To: <CAAVn2iNLDT=Aa75Fzu7Sw3eYiKT4WjYYQSTRgH4vB=DtFN7v2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <jiu7jq+fp9n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191881


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova <lynde4 at ...> wrote:
>
> Umbridge is scary because there are real people who are almost exactly like
> her and too many people do not have the resources to stand up to her, much
> less stand against her.


Kathy:
Umbridge is scary because she looks so normal noone would believe that she was so evil. I'm sure if her students told their parents that she tortured Harry they would be laughed at. Ted Bundy is a perfect real life example he used his good looks and charm to lure his victims. Peter Pettigrew has a bit of this but I think he's weaker than Umbridge. Peter seems more concerned with survival than actively hurting others.




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Mar  4 00:52:05 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 19:52:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jiu1f2+sv97@eGroups.com>
References: <jiu1f2+sv97@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F52BCB5.9030904@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191882

On 3/3/2012 4:12 PM, Geoff wrote:
> I agree that Harry had to go willingly to face Voldemort believing 
> that he would be killed, but by now, Harry was already the Master of 
> the Elder Wand and was also still protected by his mother's love. 
> Therefore, Voldemort should not have been able to win the duel in the 
> Forest. The only reasons why he was not totally defeated at this point 
> was that (1) there were still Horcruxes existing after the one inside 
> Harry was destroyed and (2) Harry did not counteract his spell by 
> defending himself as he did in the Great Hall later where the Elder 
> Wand's power "to perform as legend says it must perform for its 
> rightful owner" is unleashed. In these circumstances, Harry had to 
> survive the encounter.

  Bart:
     The mother's love protection was gone. He did have the Elder Wand, 
but the Mortysoul had to be destroyed for Morty to be defeated.

     Bart



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Mar  4 07:12:16 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 07:12:16 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <4F52BCB5.9030904@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jiv4kg+922@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191883



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 3/3/2012 4:12 PM, Geoff wrote:
> > I agree that Harry had to go willingly to face Voldemort believing 
> > that he would be killed, but by now, Harry was already the Master of 
> > the Elder Wand and was also still protected by his mother's love. 
> > Therefore, Voldemort should not have been able to win the duel in the 
> > Forest. The only reasons why he was not totally defeated at this point 
> > was that (1) there were still Horcruxes existing after the one inside 
> > Harry was destroyed and (2) Harry did not counteract his spell by 
> > defending himself as he did in the Great Hall later where the Elder 
> > Wand's power "to perform as legend says it must perform for its 
> > rightful owner" is unleashed. In these circumstances, Harry had to 
> > survive the encounter.

Bart:
>      The mother's love protection was gone. He did have the Elder Wand, 
> but the Mortysoul had to be destroyed for Morty to be defeated.

Geoff:
Yes, but my point was that Voldemort [let's not be afraid of using his 
proper name :-)] couldn't overcome Harry. That presumably wasn't 
apparent to either combatant at that time. I agree that the final Horcrux 
had to be destroyed to allow Voldemort to be totally defeated and not 
have a re-run of the 1980 scenario, which was why it was so important 
that Nagini was taken out after the Forest encounter.






From kat7555 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 07:39:03 2012
From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 07:39:03 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiapgk+cvlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jiv66n+2222@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191884

> Steve <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
> <snip>
> As I have strongly counter argued in the past. Harry may not have obeyed the rules, but he always did what was right.
>
> He could not stand by and leave it to others, when it was clear that 'others' simply did not comprehend the source of the true danger, and they also seemed very adverse to listening to reason.
>
> To some, Harry's behavior was criminal. He disobeyed rules, he broke laws, he flouted authority at every turn, or so it seemed.
>
> To paraphrases Thomas Jefferson, 'the law is but the tyrants will'.
>
> Harry did what was right, rather than what he was told. Would we really rather Harry did what he was told even when his conscience knew it was not right?
>
> An old argument, but I still, as always, side with Harry.


Kathy:
I thought some of Harry best moments came when he broke the rules. Using magic on Aunt Marge at the start of POA? Fine with me because Harry finally showed the Dursleys that they couldn't bully him any more. Trashing Dumbledore's office at the end of OOTP? I was cheering Harry on since Dumbledore left him in the hands of that sadist Umbridge. I remember how upset some group members were that Harry used Unforgivable curses during Deathly Hallows. If the authorities weren't following the rules then why should he?




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Mar  4 14:58:51 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 09:58:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jiv4kg+922@eGroups.com>
References: <jiv4kg+922@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F53832B.2000707@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191885

On 3/4/2012 2:12 AM, Geoff wrote:
> Yes, but my point was that Voldemort [let's not be afraid of using his 
> proper name :-)] couldn't overcome Harry. That presumably wasn't 
> apparent to either combatant at that time. I agree that the final 
> Horcrux had to be destroyed to allow Voldemort to be totally defeated 
> and not have a re-run of the 1980 scenario, which was why it was so 
> important that Nagini was taken out after the Forest encounter

Bart:
     First: "Voldemort" was an adolescent title he made up for himself. 
Now, we have, "HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED", and, of course, "you-know-who" 
as common nicknames. Now, for example, when the Trio are in the forest, 
and find out about the taboo, they keep calling him "you-know-who", 
which is awkward and gives undeserved respect to him. Now, I must admit 
that, being followers of Dumbledore, they probably should have been been 
calling him "Tom" or "Riddle", or "Tommy". However, the idea of using 
the title, and then forbidding it from use, gives him a lot of power. 
However, one can turn it around; take the grandiose title he chose for 
himself, and twist it until it is as mundane (or Muggle) as possible. 
Hence, "Morty".

     Second: You keep side-stepping the main issue: destroying the 
Mortysoul without destroying Harry in the process.

     Bart





From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Mar  4 15:10:50 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:10:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiv66n+2222@eGroups.com>
References: <jiv66n+2222@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F5385FA.90400@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191886

Kathy:
> I thought some of Harry best moments came when he broke the rules. 
> Using magic on Aunt Marge at the start of POA? Fine with me because 
> Harry finally showed the Dursleys that they couldn't bully him any 
> more. Trashing Dumbledore's office at the end of OOTP? I was cheering 
> Harry on since Dumbledore left him in the hands of that sadist 
> Umbridge. I remember how upset some group members were that Harry used 
> Unforgivable curses during Deathly Hallows. If the authorities weren't 
> following the rules then why should he?

     The prohibition on the use of underage magic always seemed like an 
artificial and forced plot device to me. Especially the way it is 
enforced; it essentially means that kids from magical household can use 
magic freely under parental supervision, while muggleborns are 
prohibited. How can they do their summer homework? How can they even 
keep in practice (not exercising skills for 2 months, especially newly 
learned skills, is a great way to lose them)? What about homeschooled 
children? And, what about subconscious use of magic (as was the case 
with Aunt Marge)? Note that Harry got into trouble because of the use of 
elf magic near him, while, in the Weasley household, there is magic 
going on all the time, not to mention the Weasley kids practicing 
Quidditch (flying on a broom isn't magic?).

     As far as trashing DD's office, well, that was par for the course. 
In OOP, Harry made a lot of bad choices, and the result was the death of 
Sirius. What's one more bad choice? Harry's behavior with Umbridge was 
like trying to teach a pig to dance; it doesn't work and annoys the pig; 
if he had listened to Minnie the Cat, he would not have been tortured.

     Finally, as far as Unforgivable Curses go, JKR never goes into why 
they are called "Unforgivable". We have had discussions on that, and, 
with a number of new members, we can certainly go into that again.

     Bart





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar  4 17:57:44 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 Mar 2012 17:57:44 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/4/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1330883864.9.75784.m5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191887

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
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Notes:
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From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 13:19:23 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 07:19:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jiv66n+2222@eGroups.com>
References: <jiv66n+2222@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-DS210B0293A06D72043AE714D5530@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191888

> Kathy:
> I thought some of Harry best moments came when he broke the rules.
> Using magic on Aunt Marge at the start of POA? Fine with me because
> Harry finally showed the Dursleys that they couldn't bully him any
more. Trashing Dumbledore's office at the end of OOTP? I was cheering
> Harry on since Dumbledore left him in the hands of that sadist
> Umbridge. I remember how upset some group members were that Harry
used Unforgivable curses during Deathly Hallows. If the authorities
> weren't following the rules then why should he?


Corey:
About this Harry being right or wrong thing. Harry didn't really want
to use unforgivable curses but he didn't know how  else to handle the
situation. Yeah, it was cool when Harry turned Aunt Marge into a
balloon.



From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 13:21:24 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 07:21:24 -0600
Subject: Nev ille and Nagini (was Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?)
In-Reply-To: <jiv4kg+922@eGroups.com>
References: <jiv4kg+922@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds9415188F7E2CBB6179962D5530@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191889

<snip>
> Geoff:
<snip> I agree that the final Horcrux had to be destroyed to allow
Voldemort to be totally defeated and not have a re-run of the 1980
scenario, which was why it was so important that Nagini was taken
> out after the Forest encounter.

Corey:
I think it was cool that Neville got to kill the snake. One of the
reasons I like OotP is that Neville got to do more in the books.



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Mar  4 21:43:55 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:43:55 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <4F53832B.2000707@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jj0nmr+q4gc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191890



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

Bart:
> Hence, "Morty".

Geoff:
Well, it's a bit childish...

You also didn't notice that I included a smiley with my comment.

Bart:Second: You keep side-stepping the main issue: destroying the 
> Mortysoul without destroying Harry in the process.

Geoff:
No, I'm not. I said that Voldemort could not kill Harry 
because of the latter being master of the Elder Wand. 
Harry, in accepting the possibility of death, and not 
knowing about that link at the time, did not attempt 
to use a spell against his opponent, and the Elder Wand
refused to act against its owner; in so doing, Voldemort 
destroyed his own soul fragment in Harry. We saw at the 
time that he was obviously affected.

True, the killing of Nagini was essential to his final
defeat. If that had not happened, as I said we would have 
still had Voldemort around, possibly disembsodied as in 
1981 but still a potential threat fo future generations. 
I believe that there was no threat to Harry although he 
did not realise this at the time.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 21:50:13 2012
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:50:13 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <4F5385FA.90400@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jj0o2l+9utd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191891

Bart said: 
> (flying on a broom isn't magic?).

Annemehr:
Apparently not.  In CoS, when Ron, Fred, and George flew the car to rescue Harry, Harry thought they were doing underage magic.  But Ron said, "Oh, this doesn't count.  We're only borrowing this, it's Dad's, *we* didn't enchant it."  It would be the same thing for flying a broom.  Or having a Sneakoscope go off; Harry didn't get in trouble for that either.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  5 02:02:43 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 02:02:43 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <4F5385FA.90400@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jj16s3+u2ti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191892




> Kathy:
<snip>
 If the authorities weren't 
> > following the rules then why should he?

Bart:
>      The prohibition on the use of underage magic always seemed like an 
> artificial and forced plot device to me.

Pippin:
Of course half the fun of  a list like this is taking the books way too seriously, and I'm as guilty as anybody. But sometimes I think we overlook JKR's gift for satire. 

Case in point: although Hogwarts seems set up to function like a school in the real world, with students  bound by authority and any number of rather arbitrary regulations and sanctions for violators, in practice the students are scarcely governed (and in the case of some, scarcely governable). It's the staff who must do as they're told or else. 

Just compare the number of students who are forced out for unacceptable behavior compared to the number of teachers who have to leave. It's bad even in terms of raw numbers. Considered as a proportion of each, it's staggering. 

This satirical inversion leads to the  situation in HBP,  where  Harry and Draco can't wait to be thought grown up enough to  take orders. <g>

 Of course there's a serious point behind it all: willing obedience is not, as they think, a sign of maturity.  Reliability is. 

And that is why, when it's all over, Harry still thinks it is wise to ask Dumbledore's device, even though he knows that Dumbledore deceived him. Despite that, Dumbledore was reliable -- he said he hoped his plan would help Harry to survive and it did. 

As part of that plan, Harry had to think that he was going to die, not so that he would survive Voldemort's attempt to kill him, but so that he could, if he chose, cast the same spell of protection on Voldemort's enemies that his mother had used to save him. 

Dumbledore did everything he could to convince Harry that loving sacrifice was the most powerful weapon anyone could use against Voldemort, but he never told Harry anything to make Harry think he would have to use it. That is why it was such a shock when Harry realized it had to be done

It was not because he was under some compulsion to obey Dumbledore, or because he had been conditioned to sacrifice himself,  but simply because Harry knew that if he was not the next to die at Voldemort's hands, someone else would be. And Harry would   have to watch that death through Voldemort's eyes, and it would most likely be someone that Harry knew, and who cared enough about Hogwarts to fight for it, and whom Harry might have saved with choice Voldemort had offered him and the magic his mother had discovered. 

 I don't know if I would have the physical courage to choose as Harry did, but morally it seems like a no brainer. 

 Dumbledore's advice was sometimes flawed, in that it was too difficult to follow. Harry couldn't learn occlumency, Snape couldn't give up his grudge, Sirius couldn't bear to give up his freedom again. 

But it generally worked: while it sometimes  made things needlessly difficult, I can't think of anyone in  canon who actually came to grief if they did  as Dumbledore advised. Ever. 

Dumbledore had his weaknesses and Harry absorbed some of them, or had them already. 

But in the end Harry is aware of his tendency to be self-protective and controlling. By admitting in public how wrong he had been about Snape and by giving up the Elder Wand, he showed that he had become aware of these habits in himself and was determined to form better ones. 

Dumbledore, OTOH,  never publicly admitted such a serious error (and he made several of them) or relinquished control over anything that was rightfully his. 

To get back to Kathy's question, Harry would like people to be against torture, and it's not going to help if he gets in the habit of using it. 

Pippin









From technomad at intergate.com  Mon Mar  5 02:08:27 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:08:27 -0600
Subject: What if Voldemort was captured alive but powerless?
Message-ID: <20120304200827.w1g5z2z8oocs08w0@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191893

I've wondered what might have happened if, instead of killing him,  
Voldemort's last spell had stripped his magical powers or knowledge of  
how to cast spells from him, and he'd been captured alive.  What would  
they have done with him?

I've got a whole bunch of ideas, and most of them would have Bella  
Lestrange either getting sick or begging me to teach her.

Of course, without his spells, Voldemort's harmless and powerless.   
Maybe it's time Filch got an assistant/apprentice?

----------------------------------------------------------------
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From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 03:04:17 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 03:04:17 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jitann+6tg2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jj1afh+bkuj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191894



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rtbthw_mom" <thedossetts at ...> wrote:
>

> 
> Pat:
>  
> Absolutely. I am rereading the series with my son, and it amazes me at just how prescient Trelawny really is. Not just in book 6 - all through the series. We are on Goblet of Fire right now, and of course every class she's telling Harry that "death is coming" - and it did, just not Harry's. Trelawny is the character who really has a gift - she just doesn't trust it enough, and tries too hard to second guess what she has seen and decide what exactly it means - when really, it isn't always up to the seer to say what it means. (see ancient Greece.)
> 

Nikkalmati

I agree that Trelawny is always spot-on in her predictions just not in interpreting them.  We are supposed to be reminded of Cassandra of Troy, who was given the gift of Sight, but cursed that no one would believe her.  I don't know if curses can be handed down, or even that Trelawny is a descendent of "the" Cassandra, but it certainly is true that no one in the series, including Trelawny herself, believes what she predicts -  except for Voldemort, of course.  It seems the curse extends to the readership also because she certainly gets no respect from them either.  

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 03:09:16 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 03:09:16 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jj0nmr+q4gc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jj1aos+eq27@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191895



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
>

> 
> Geoff:
> No, I'm not. I said that Voldemort could not kill Harry 
> because of the latter being master of the Elder Wand. 
> Harry, in accepting the possibility of death, and not 
> knowing about that link at the time, did not attempt 
> to use a spell against his opponent, and the Elder Wand
> refused to act against its owner; in so doing, Voldemort 
> destroyed his own soul fragment in Harry. We saw at the 
> time that he was obviously affected.
> 
> True, the killing of Nagini was essential to his final
> defeat. If that had not happened, as I said we would have 
> still had Voldemort around, possibly disembsodied as in 
> 1981 but still a potential threat fo future generations. 
> I believe that there was no threat to Harry although he 
> did not realise this at the time.
>
Nikkalmati

What about the theory that the Elder Wand did not know of Harry's mastery until he told Voldemort in the Great Haoo about defeating Draco?  In that case, the Wand had no reason not to act against Harry in the Forest.  (I admit I have never been able to put all the pieces together).  

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 03:14:53 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 03:14:53 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <4F5385FA.90400@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jj1b3d+cugd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191896



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Kathy:
> > I thought some of Harry best moments came when he broke the rules. 
> > Using magic on Aunt Marge at the start of POA? Fine with me because 
> > Harry finally showed the Dursleys that they couldn't bully him any 
> > more. Trashing Dumbledore's office at the end of OOTP? I was cheering 
> > Harry on since Dumbledore left him in the hands of that sadist 
> > Umbridge. I remember how upset some group members were that Harry used 
> > Unforgivable curses during Deathly Hallows. If the authorities weren't 
> > following the rules then why should he?

Nikkalmati

I see a distinction between breaking rules and doing something immoral.  Of these examples only using unforgivable could in theory be immoral.  Oh, and what everyone else does does not determine what is or is not moral.

Nikkalmati
> 
>      The prohibition on the use of underage magic always seemed like an 
> artificial and forced plot device to me. Especially the way it is 
> enforced; it essentially means that kids from magical household can use 
> magic freely under parental supervision, while muggleborns are 
> prohibited. How can they do their summer homework? How can they even 
> keep in practice (not exercising skills for 2 months, especially newly 
> learned skills, is a great way to lose them)? What about homeschooled 
> children? And, what about subconscious use of magic (as was the case 
> with Aunt Marge)? Note that Harry got into trouble because of the use of 
> elf magic near him, while, in the Weasley household, there is magic 
> going on all the time, not to mention the Weasley kids practicing 
> Quidditch (flying on a broom isn't magic?).
> 
>snip>

Nikkalmati

You seem to be saying it is not fair, not that it is not believable (i.e. a plot device).

Nikkalmati





From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 04:52:52 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 22:52:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What if Voldemort was captured alive but powerless?
In-Reply-To: <20120304200827.w1g5z2z8oocs08w0@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <20120304200827.w1g5z2z8oocs08w0@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds20B2001B4BAF260F8A8AE2D5500@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191897

> Eric:
> I've wondered what might have happened if, instead of killing him,
> Voldemort's last spell had stripped his magical powers or knowledge
> of how to cast spells from him, and he'd been captured alive. What
> would they have done with him? <snip>

Corey:
That's a good topic, but they might have sent him off to Azkaban. I
got a better one. What if Umbridge was left in the forest?



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 08:19:31 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:19:31 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jj1b3d+cugd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jj1suj+gfep@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191898

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
> 
...
> 
> Nikkalmati
> > 
> > The prohibition on the use of underage magic always seemed 
> > like an artificial and forced plot device to me. Especially 
> > the way it is enforced; ...
> 
> Nikkalmati
>

Steve:

I think JKR said that the Underage Magic rule was left up to the parents to enforce, since the Ministy has no way to make a distinction regarding who was actually using the magic. 

So, in magical households, it is up the the parents. If kids from magical households venture into muggle area, as Fred and George often to, the must be careful not to use detectable magic in a muggle area.

Harry (and Hermione) are different in that they live in Muggle neighborhoods, and with Muggle families. 

But, Harry is a very special case, he has always been very closely monitored by the Ministry, as well as by Dumbledore. But notice that the Ministries reaction of Harry's use of magic is based on the Ministries attitude at the time.

When Harry is still in good graces, the Ministry is very forgiving of his having used magic to blow up Aunt Marge, even though it was accidental and unintended.

However, in the next book, when Harry fights off Dementors to save his cousin, the Ministry is not happy with Harry, and pushes the event to the limit. Even Dumbledore is stunned that they would bother to hold a full court hearing for something as petty as underage magic. 

In Harry's case, the extent of the Ministry reaction is very much based on the Ministries attitude toward Harry. Which is itself a very poor and unequal enforcement of the law. 

I think for the most part, underage magic is just an annoyance for the Ministry. It is, after all, their job to keep muggles from finding out. But, it is probably the equivalent of a parking ticket, unless they have some motivation for being excessively vengeful, as they were in Harry's case. 

Steve/bboyminn




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Mar  5 11:03:21 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:03:21 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jj1aos+eq27@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jj26hp+2qe7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191899

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123@> wrote:

Geoff:
> > No, I'm not. I said that Voldemort could not kill Harry 
> > because of the latter being master of the Elder Wand. 
> > Harry, in accepting the possibility of death, and not 
> > knowing about that link at the time, did not attempt 
> > to use a spell against his opponent, and the Elder Wand
> > refused to act against its owner; in so doing, Voldemort 
> > destroyed his own soul fragment in Harry. We saw at the 
> > time that he was obviously affected.
> > 
> > True, the killing of Nagini was essential to his final
> > defeat. If that had not happened, as I said we would have 
> > still had Voldemort around, possibly disembsodied as in 
> > 1981 but still a potential threat fo future generations. 
> > I believe that there was no threat to Harry although he 
> > did not realise this at the time.

Nikkalmati: What about the theory that the Elder Wand did not know of Harry's mastery until he told Voldemort in the Great Haoo about defeating Draco?  In that case, the Wand had no reason not to act against Harry in the Forest.  (I admit I have never been able to put all the pieces together).  

Geoff:
I haven't seen anything about that theory but my 
reaction is that that it's not a viable one.

The suggestion seems to be that the Wand doesn't
know who its current owner is. But, like the Sorting
Hat, the Elder Wand has to be a semi-sentient 
powerful magical object to carry out its function. 
It can't suddenly turn to Voldemort in the middle 
of the duel and say "Excuse me, but are you really 
my Master?".

Looking at the Sorting Hat again, it seemed to have 
a pretty good handle on what was happening.




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Mar  5 15:42:03 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:42:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jj1b3d+cugd@eGroups.com>
References: <jj1b3d+cugd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F54DECB.5080208@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191900

Bart:
>       The prohibition on the use of underage magic always seemed like an
> artificial and forced plot device to me. Especially the way it is
> enforced; it essentially means that kids from magical household can use
> magic freely under parental supervision, while muggleborns are
> prohibited. How can they do their summer homework? How can they even
> keep in practice (not exercising skills for 2 months, especially newly
> learned skills, is a great way to lose them)? What about homeschooled
> children? And, what about subconscious use of magic (as was the case
> with Aunt Marge)? Note that Harry got into trouble because of the use of
> elf magic near him, while, in the Weasley household, there is magic
> going on all the time, not to mention the Weasley kids practicing
> Quidditch (flying on a broom isn't magic?).
>
> snip>

Nikkalmati:

> You seem to be saying it is not fair, not that it is not believable (i.e. a plot device).

Bart:
     A certain level of unfairness becomes unbelievable; if one set of 
students can practice over the summer, and the other can't, it would 
evidence itself on the WW students doing much better than the MB 
students, yet, by all evidence given in the book, there is no such 
problem. Also, especially with the disdain of muggles and doing things 
the muggle way apparent in the WW, prohibiting use of magic outside of 
school just seems unnatural.

     Bart



From technomad at intergate.com  Mon Mar  5 18:47:38 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:47:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What if Voldemort was captured alive but
	powerless?
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds20B2001B4BAF260F8A8AE2D5500@phx.gbl>
References: <20120304200827.w1g5z2z8oocs08w0@webmail.intergate.com>
	<SNT133-ds20B2001B4BAF260F8A8AE2D5500@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20120305124738.oera81xr7ok0s4co@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191901

Quoting Corey overton <coverton1982 at hotmail.com>:

>> Eric:
>> I've wondered what might have happened if, instead of killing him,
>> Voldemort's last spell had stripped his magical powers or knowledge
>> of how to cast spells from him, and he'd been captured alive. What
>> would they have done with him? <snip>
>
> Corey:
> That's a good topic, but they might have sent him off to Azkaban. I
> got a better one. What if Umbridge was left in the forest?
>
I still like the idea of a helpless, depowered Voldemort being put  
under Argus Filch's command.  Mopping the floor, cleaning the castle,  
treated worse than a house elf...he wanted to rule, did he?  Let the  
punishment fit the crime!

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  5 19:28:36 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 19:28:36 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <4F54DECB.5080208@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jj3454+dvnu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191902


> Bart:
>      A certain level of unfairness becomes unbelievable; if one set of 
> students can practice over the summer, and the other can't, it would 
> evidence itself on the WW students doing much better than the MB 
> students, yet, by all evidence given in the book, there is no such 
> problem. Also, especially with the disdain of muggles and doing things 
> the muggle way apparent in the WW, prohibiting use of magic outside of 
> school just seems unnatural.
>

Pippin:
I think you've misunderstood the law. None of the underage students are supposed to practice magic outside of Hogwarts whether they live in Muggle homes or wizarding ones, on pain of expulsion.  Although the nature of The Trace is such that underage students *could* practice magic at home with their parent's  connivance, they aren't supposed to. Apparently most of the parents approve of this rule, since we don't hear them complaining about it. 

There's no problem with  practical assignments because they're not given over the summer: Harry's homework consists of essays, not spellwork. In PoA  he is  worried about falling behind, not because his wand is locked away but because all of his books are as well. 

Wizard world kids would be expected to be out of practice when they got back to school just like Muggleborn ones, and if they weren't it would probably arouse suspicion. There are always a few students like Tom Riddle and the Twins who can find their way around any law on the books, but they are a  small minority. 

Pippin






From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Mon Mar  5 20:21:37 2012
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (?alabio?)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 20:21:37 +0000
Subject: What if Voldemort was captured alive but powerless?
In-Reply-To: <1330941265.1137.72075.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1330941265.1137.72075.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <DB522038-4514-4648-ACF9-51D613FAD8AE@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191903

> ?Corey Overton? <Coverton1982 at Hotmail.Com Corey_Over>, Sun Mar 4,
2012 9:55 pm ((PST)):
> What if Umbridge was left in the forest?


Walabio:
	The Centaurs would gangrape her to death.  She is already
over half-dead from gangrape when Dumbledore rescues her after only
half a day.



From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Mar  5 22:02:59 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:02:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if Voldemort was captured alive but
 powerless?
In-Reply-To: <DB522038-4514-4648-ACF9-51D613FAD8AE@MacOSX.Com>
References: <1330941265.1137.72075.m7@yahoogroups.com> <DB522038-4514-4648-ACF9-51D613FAD8AE@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <4F553813.3060000@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191904

Corey Overton <Coverton1982 at Hotmail.Com Corey_Over>, Sun Mar 4,
> What if Umbridge was left in the forest?
>
Walabio:
	The Centaurs would gangrape her to death.  She is already
over half-dead from gangrape when Dumbledore rescues her after only
half a day.

Bart:
	There was a wonderful movie from 1980 called "The Gods Must Be Crazy", involving a Kalahari tribesman who ventures into civilization. When he first sees an attractive blonde schoolteacher, the narrator describing the man's point of view says something on the order of, "And then he saw the most ugly woman he had ever seen in his life. Skin like a ghost, hair like a corpse, and incredibly large and ungainly." Part of chauvinism is the belief that those who are not as good as us want to have sex with us, because we are so much better, and therefore so much more attractive. Except, remember, the centaurs are extremely chauvinistic themselves. They would no more want to rape Umbridge than a group of normal humans would want to rape a centaur.

	Bart





From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 23:21:50 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 17:21:50 -0600
Subject: Umbridge (was Re: What if Voldemort was captured alive but powerless?)
In-Reply-To: <4F553813.3060000@moosewise.com>
References: <1330941265.1137.72075.m7@yahoogroups.com> <DB522038-4514-4648-ACF9-51D613FAD8AE@MacOSX.Com> <4F553813.3060000@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds1910C2B5F68DD7E5B43A90D5500@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191905

That's a little extreme, don't you think? I mean the centaurs
didn't like her or Harry or Hermione but I don't think they
would have raped Umbridge. I think Umbridge should have been
sent to Azkaban.

Corey




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 23:24:36 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 17:24:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What if Voldemort was captured alive butpowerless?
In-Reply-To: <20120305124738.oera81xr7ok0s4co@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <20120304200827.w1g5z2z8oocs08w0@webmail.intergate.com><SNT133-ds20B2001B4BAF260F8A8AE2D5500@phx.gbl> <20120305124738.oera81xr7ok0s4co@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds7988658F0A783C13DDC5ED5500@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191906

> Eric:
> I still like the idea of a helpless, depowered Voldemort being put
> under Argus Filch's command. Mopping the floor, cleaning the castle,
> treated worse than a house elf...he wanted to rule, did he? Let the
> punishment fit the crime!

Corey:
That would be very interesting, Voldemort and Filch. There's a pair
for you.




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 01:53:37 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 01:53:37 -0000
Subject: Umbridge (was Re: What if Voldemort was captured alive but powerless?)
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds1910C2B5F68DD7E5B43A90D5500@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <jj3qn2+hl1u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191907



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Corey overton <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:
>
> That's a little extreme, don't you think? I mean the centaurs
> didn't like her or Harry or Hermione but I don't think they
> would have raped Umbridge. I think Umbridge should have been
> sent to Azkaban.
> 
> Corey
>
Nikkalmati

I think that was their reputation in the Greek world.  Centaurs were rumored to carry off women for their lustful purposes.  No idea why.

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 01:56:47 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 01:56:47 -0000
Subject: Morality and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <jj1suj+gfep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jj3qsv+qnb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191908



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98@> wrote:
> > 
> ...
> > 
> > Nikkalmati
> > > 
> > > The prohibition on the use of underage magic always seemed 
> > > like an artificial and forced plot device to me. Especially 
> > > the way it is enforced; ...
> > 
> > Nikkalmati
> >
> 
> Steve:
> 
> I think JKR said that the Underage Magic rule was left up to the parents to enforce, since the Ministy has no way to make a distinction regarding who was actually using the magic. 
> 
> So, in magical households, it is up the the parents. If kids from magical households venture into muggle area, as Fred and George often to, the must be careful not to use detectable magic in a muggle area.
> 
> Harry (and Hermione) are different in that they live in Muggle neighborhoods, and with Muggle families. 
> 
> But, Harry is a very special case, he has always been very closely monitored by the Ministry, as well as by Dumbledore. But notice that the Ministries reaction of Harry's use of magic is based on the Ministries attitude at the time.
> 
> When Harry is still in good graces, the Ministry is very forgiving of his having used magic to blow up Aunt Marge, even though it was accidental and unintended.
> 
> However, in the next book, when Harry fights off Dementors to save his cousin, the Ministry is not happy with Harry, and pushes the event to the limit. Even Dumbledore is stunned that they would bother to hold a full court hearing for something as petty as underage magic. 
> 
> In Harry's case, the extent of the Ministry reaction is very much based on the Ministries attitude toward Harry. Which is itself a very poor and unequal enforcement of the law. 
> 
> I think for the most part, underage magic is just an annoyance for the Ministry. It is, after all, their job to keep muggles from finding out. But, it is probably the equivalent of a parking ticket, unless they have some motivation for being excessively vengeful, as they were in Harry's case. 
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>
Nikkalmati

Actually, I was quoting Bart there.  Sorry, to be confusing.

Nikkalmati




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 01:16:57 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 01:16:57 -0000
Subject: What if Voldemort was captured alive but powerless?
In-Reply-To: <4F553813.3060000@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jj6cu9+evt4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191909



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> ???Corey Overton??? <Coverton1982 at ... Corey_Over>, Sun Mar 4,
> > What if Umbridge was left in the forest?
> >
> Walabio:
> 	The Centaurs would gangrape her to death.  She is already
> over half-dead from gangrape when Dumbledore rescues her after only
> half a day.
> 
> Bart:
> ... They would no more want to rape Umbridge than a group of normal humans would want to rape a centaur.
> 
> 	Bart
>

Steve:

The rape aspect comes from the Mythology of Centaurs. That may or may not apply to the Harry Potter books, but it does exist in mythology.

Steve/bboyminn




From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Mar  7 03:10:57 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 22:10:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What if Voldemort was captured alive but
 powerless?
In-Reply-To: <jj6cu9+evt4@eGroups.com>
References: <jj6cu9+evt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F56D1C1.9090203@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191910

On 3/6/2012 8:16 PM, Steve wrote:
> Bart:
> ... They would no more want to rape Umbridge than a group of normal humans would want to rape a centaur.
>
> 	Bart
>
> Steve:
>
> The rape aspect comes from the Mythology of Centaurs. That may or may not apply to the Harry Potter books, but it does exist in mythology.
>

Bart:
     The mythology of centaurs also treats them as hard drinking 
partiers. JKR's centaurs are arrogant, chauvinistic and insular.

     Bart




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 05:40:26 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:40:26 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jipoqc+83g0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jj6sca+5d5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191911



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat4001" <zarleycat at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
>> >
> > 
>Mirianne
 
> I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but afer reading the entire series, Dumbledore has creeped me out. Certainly I can see why Umbridge or any of the "bad guys" would send a chill up people's spines, but they're supposed to do that. I've come away from the series as seeing Dumbledore as a puppet master - controlling Harry's early life, isolating himself, supremely confident in his own wisdom, not sharing important information with his allies, setting up puzzles to be solved and secrets to be ferreted out, rather than telling people everything he knows (what was the point of the Order??? Follow anything DD says without question?))
> 
> And conveniently being brought back into the story to continue the wise, old mentor act even after death. For someone who was held in such wide regard in the Wizard world, who could have asked for and been given any position he wanted after the first war with Voldemort, doesn't it seem odd that he wouldn't have gone to Azkaban to ask Sirius what the hell happened with the Potters?  But, why bother, since now he could control Harry's childhood, without any interference from a potentially pesky godfather?  Better to control everything he could and eliminate any potential obstacles.  
> 
> The bad guys are supposed to be bad. It's comfortable, and even pleasurable in a weird way, to be disturbed by them.  It's much more unsettling to find the chief good guy, the leader of the forces of light, to be morally suspect.

>
Nikkalmati

As the story unfolded the number of readers disturbed by DD's character increased, i suspect.  I am not talking about decisions that could be attributed to "in war, generals have to make hard choices" kind of decisions, or indications of weakness of character or even childhood mistakes, but more sinister types of decisions.   I will list some.  1. Some were disturbed by his leaving Harry at the Dursleys' or failing to check up on him to be sure he was all right.  2.  As far as we can tell Sirius Black was never punished for attempting to sic Remus on Snape.  There is an air of injustice in sweeping the whole incident under the rug even though Snape could have been bitten and Remus would have been expelled or worse.  In addition, through an inquiry the fact that the Mauraders were unregistered antimagi might have come out.  3. He failed to question Sirius after the Potters' deaths to be sure he was guilty.   He abandoned Sirius to the "legal" system. 4.  When Snape, a boy just out of achool and clearly distraught and terrified, came to meet DD to ask him to protect Lily,  DD took the opportunity to extract from Snape a promise of obedience in return for an action (protecting his own order members), which DD was obliged to do anyway.  5.  When Lily died and Snape was again distraught, DD extracted another promise from Snape which amounted to an oath to follow DD's orders in order to protect Harry.  6.  DD didn't tell Snape that Harry would have to die by LV's hand whenever it was he first knew it, but let Snape continue thinking he was acting to protect Lily's son. 7. DD allowed Draco to roam freely at the school after he had nearly killed two students in his attempt to kill DD. Add to this the strange fact (to me) that he and his brother apparently just let Snape go after discovering him listening to the prophacy, leading some to speculate that DD wanted LV to hear it; the speculation by Harry that DD arranged for him to go after the Sorcerer's stone in his first year; his inability to resist putting on the ring with the Resurection Stone in it; and altogether you have a very dubious character, in some people's eyes.

Nikkalmati




From technomad at intergate.com  Wed Mar  7 06:09:37 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 00:09:37 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jj6sca+5d5a@eGroups.com>
References: <jj6sca+5d5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20120307000937.takvg7cr48o00o4o@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191912

Quoting nikkalmati <puduhepa98 at aol.com>:


>
> As the story unfolded the number of readers disturbed by DD's   
> character increased, i suspect.  I am not talking about decisions   
> that could be attributed to "in war, generals have to make hard   
> choices" kind of decisions, or indications of weakness of character   
> or even childhood mistakes, but more sinister types of decisions.     
> I will list some.  1. Some were disturbed by his leaving Harry at   
> the Dursleys' or failing to check up on him to be sure he was all   
> right.  2.  As far as we can tell Sirius Black was never punished   
> for attempting to sic Remus on Snape.  There is an air of injustice   
> in sweeping the whole incident under the rug even though Snape could  
>  have been bitten and Remus would have been expelled or worse.  In   
> addition, through an inquiry the fact that the Mauraders were   
> unregistered antimagi might have come out.  3. He failed to question  
>  Sirius after the Potters' deaths to be sure he was guilty.   He   
> abandoned Sirius to the "legal" system. 4.  When Snape, a boy jus!
>  t out of achool and clearly distraught and terrified, came to meet   
> DD to ask him to protect Lily,  DD took the opportunity to extract   
> from Snape a promise of obedience in return for an action   
> (protecting his own order members), which DD was obliged to do   
> anyway.  5.  When Lily died and Snape was again distraught, DD   
> extracted another promise from Snape which amounted to an oath to   
> follow DD's orders in order to protect Harry.  6.  DD didn't tell   
> Snape that Harry would have to die by LV's hand whenever it was he   
> first knew it, but let Snape continue thinking he was acting to   
> protect Lily's son. 7. DD allowed Draco to roam freely at the school  
>  after he had nearly killed two students in his attempt to kill DD.   
> Add to this the strange fact (to me) that he and his brother   
> apparently just let Snape go after discovering him listening to the   
> prophacy, leading some to speculate that DD wanted LV to hear it;   
> the speculation by Harry that DD arranged for him to go after the   
> Sorcerer's!
>   stone in his first year; his inability to resist putting on the   
> ring with the Resurection Stone in it; and altogether you have a   
> very dubious character, in some people's eyes.
>
> Nikkalmati

These are all excellent points.  Also, he could and should have looked  
a lot more closely at Myrtle's death, rather than letting a boy he was  
already very suspicious of throw the blame onto Hagrid.  I mean, I'm  
no CSI expert, but I'd think that a look at the body would tell  
anybody that this was no Acromantula attack---no bite marks.  Asking  
her ghost, when it appeared, just what had happened would also have  
been a good idea. (I know quite a few investigators who'd sell their  
souls for that ability.)  It's just pure luck that they didn't lose  
Hagrid to the Dark Side, too...he had much better reasons to join up  
than someone like Lucius Malfoy ever could have, and with his way with  
animals, he could have been a valuable asset for them.

Letting Draco go flapping around the school after he'd already made  
one murder attempt was criminally negligent; if Ron or that girl who  
got the necklace by mistake had died, DD would have shared a lot of  
the liability.  DD had to know that Malfoy was likely to be put under  
pressure to do something, and should have Legilimens'd him the minute  
he was back in school.

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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar  7 16:22:25 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:22:25 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jj6sca+5d5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jj8201+b8l5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191913


> Nikkalmati
> 
> As the story unfolded the number of readers disturbed by DD's character increased, i suspect.  I am not talking about decisions that could be attributed to "in war, generals have to make hard choices" kind of decisions, or indications of weakness of character or even childhood mistakes, but more sinister types of decisions.   I will list some.  1. Some were disturbed by his leaving Harry at the Dursleys' or failing to check up on him to be sure he was all right.  2.  As far as we can tell Sirius Black was never punished for attempting to sic Remus on Snape.  There is an air of injustice in sweeping the whole incident under the rug even though Snape could have been bitten and Remus would have been expelled or worse.  In addition, through an inquiry the fact that the Mauraders were unregistered antimagi might have come out.  3. He failed to question Sirius after the Potters' deaths to be sure he was guilty.   He abandoned Sirius to the "legal" system.

Pippin:

If Dumbledore should have protected Sirius from the "legal" system when he was arrested for the deaths of the Muggles, then why was it wrong for him to protect Harry, Draco, Lupin and Snape, not to mention Sirius when he set Snape at Lupin?  It seems to me that for some readers what seems to be a moral issue is really a partisan one -- Dumbledore is not wrong for interfering or failing to interfere with the law, but only for doing so on behalf of someone who, in the eyes of a particular reader, didn't deserve it. 

I think the moral issue for Dumbledore is whether interfering will protect the lives of innocent people. He does not assume that the law, or those who enforce it, will always act on behalf of the innocent, nor does he have any confidence in the ability of what passes for due process in the wizarding world to determine who is guilty and who is not. His own ability to do so is not perfect and Sirius is the proof of that. But his record is better than the Ministry's. 

Nikklamatai
 4.  When Snape, a boy just out of achool and clearly distraught and terrified, came to meet DD to ask him to protect Lily,  DD took the opportunity to extract from Snape a promise of obedience in return for an action (protecting his own order members), which DD was obliged to do anyway. 

Pippin:
Where do you get the idea that Dumbledore was obliged to protect Order members from Voldemort? Their job was to put themselves in harm's way if necessary in order to protect others. A general shouldn't waste the lives of his troops. But that's a far cry from promising to make sure one in particular is not going to be killed by the enemy. 

 5.  When Lily died and Snape was again distraught, DD extracted another promise from Snape which amounted to an oath to follow DD's orders in order to protect Harry. 

Pippin:
It wasn't an unbreakable vow: and presumably Snape was not under duress in all the years he chose to keep it. Snape had many opportunities to leave Hogwarts, in fact he did leave it every summer. If he had chosen to disappear, probably Voldemort could have tracked him down, but I don't think Dumbledore or the Ministry could have done it. There was indeed duress involved, but it was the obligation placed on every Death Eater of a lifetime of service or death, and Snape brought that on himself.

 6.  DD didn't tell Snape that Harry would have to die by LV's hand whenever it was he first knew it, but let Snape continue thinking he was acting to protect Lily's son.

Pippin:
Now this, I think, was indeed selfish and cowardly, and carried the underlying presumption that Snape's interests did not matter one way or the other. Dumbledore had come to take Snape's cooperation for granted. 

Pippin





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 03:46:05 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 03:46:05 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jj8201+b8l5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jjbudt+c41m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191914



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
>> 
> Pippin:
> 
> If Dumbledore should have protected Sirius from the "legal" system when he was arrested for the deaths of the Muggles, then why was it wrong for him to protect Harry, Draco, Lupin and Snape, not to mention Sirius when he set Snape at Lupin?  It seems to me that for some readers what seems to be a moral issue is really a partisan one -- Dumbledore is not wrong for interfering or failing to interfere with the law, but only for doing so on behalf of someone who, in the eyes of a particular reader, didn't deserve it. 

Nikkalmati

This is not a fair comparison.  I was suggesting DD should have inquired into Sirius' situation, not that he should have protected him (unless the inquiry showed he was innocent).  Just like he protected Harry from the Wizengamot.  Protecting Sirius after the Prank and Draco in the last year was not protecting the innocent.  Lupin was, of course, innocent, but he needed no protecting at that time.  DD was the legal system at Hogwarts, so if he ignored the events - there was no justice.  

Nikkalmati
> 
Pippin
> I think the moral issue for Dumbledore is whether interfering will protect the lives of innocent people. He does not assume that the law, or those who enforce it, will always act on behalf of the innocent, nor does he have any confidence in the ability of what passes for due process in the wizarding world to determine who is guilty and who is not. His own ability to do so is not perfect and Sirius is the proof of that. But his record is better than the Ministry's. 
> 

Nikkalmati

So, why didn't he look into Sirius' conviction?

Nikkalmati


 
> 
> Pippin:
> Where do you get the idea that Dumbledore was obliged to protect Order members from Voldemort? Their job was to put themselves in harm's way if necessary in order to protect others. A general shouldn't waste the lives of his troops. But that's a far cry from promising to make sure one in particular is not going to be killed by the enemy. 
> 
Nikkalmati

Even I don't think DD would fail to protect Lily and James after he had been told they were marked by LV.  If he thought he could easily lose more of his own people, he must have had more followers than we know about.  :>) I don't doubt he would have done just what he did do.  He advised them to go into hiding, offered to be their Secret Keeper, and probably cast the Fidelius Charm.

Nikkalmati  

> 
> Pippin:
> It wasn't an unbreakable vow: and presumably Snape was not under duress in all the years he chose to keep it. Snape had many opportunities to leave Hogwarts, in fact he did leave it every summer. If he had chosen to disappear, probably Voldemort could have tracked him down, but I don't think Dumbledore or the Ministry could have done it. There was indeed duress involved, but it was the obligation placed on every Death Eater of a lifetime of service or death, and Snape brought that on himself.

Nikkalmati

Presumably Snape felt obliged by having given his word.  He also must have wanted LV dead and believed that DD knew how that could be done.  There was duress or at least manipulation involved but I am not sure comparing DD' service to the obligations laid on his Death Eaters by LV reflects well on DD at all.

Nikkalmati 

>  6.  DD didn't tell Snape that Harry would have to die by LV's hand whenever it was he first knew it, but let Snape continue thinking he was acting to protect Lily's son.
> 
> Pippin:
> Now this, I think, was indeed selfish and cowardly, and carried the underlying presumption that Snape's interests did not matter one way or the other. Dumbledore had come to take Snape's cooperation for granted. 
> 
Nikkalmati

Agreed




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar  9 19:44:30 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:44:30 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jjbudt+c41m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jjdmiu+nq91@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191915



> Nikkalmati
> 
> This is not a fair comparison.  I was suggesting DD should have inquired into Sirius' situation, not that he should have protected him (unless the inquiry showed he was innocent). 

Pippin:
But that's just it. Dumbledore's enquiries showed that Sirius was guilty. We don't know what evidence James and Sirius contrived to persuade everyone that Sirius was the secret keeper, but it's canon that they planned to do so,   and that everyone, including Dumbledore, was fooled. That, plus the eyewitness testimony of all those Muggles (which couldn't be checked since they were all memory charmed afterwards), clinched the case. 

Dumbledore didn't randomly interrogate prisoners to get their side of the story. He looked into Hokey's case and Morfin's because he suspected there was a connection with Voldemort which the Ministry was refusing to see. 

There was no need to do that with Sirius -- the Ministry had no problems believing that he was connected to Voldemort.  So from Dumbledore's point of view there was nothing he needed to find out. 

Nikkalmati:

 Just like he protected Harry from the Wizengamot.  Protecting Sirius after the Prank and Draco in the last year was not protecting the innocent.  Lupin was, of course, innocent, but he needed no protecting at that time.  DD was the legal system at Hogwarts, so if he ignored the events - there was no justice.  


Pippin:
Dumbledore knew the Ministry was out to get Harry and using the Wizengamot as its tool. He had no reason to think there was some political grudge against Sirius. 

 While Draco undoubtedly deserved some punishment, even Harry did not think he deserved to be murdered, and that's what would have happened to him if Dumbledore had exposed his crimes. As for Lupin, he was indeed innocent, (at least of plotting against Snape) but that wouldn't have mattered if it had come out that he was a werewolf. That could hardly have been concealed if  Sirius was convicted of  setting him at Snape. And probably many people would have been willing to believe Snape's contention that Lupin was in on it. 

If by justice you mean punishment for the guilty, then yes, Dumbledore believes protecting the innocent is more important. Reasonable people can disagree about that -- but I wouldn't call either viewpoint sinister. 


> Nikkalmati
> 
> Even I don't think DD would fail to protect Lily and James after he had been told they were marked by LV.  If he thought he could easily lose more of his own people, he must have had more followers than we know about.  :>) I don't doubt he would have done just what he did do.  He advised them to go into hiding, offered to be their Secret Keeper, and probably cast the Fidelius Charm.

Pippin:
 James and Lily were already at risk before Harry was born -- they had defied Voldemort three times.  JKR is maddeningly vague about what James and LIly did for the Order. But look at what the others did: guarding Harry and others who were unable to defend themselves, negotiating with Giants, breaking into restricted areas of the Ministry, fighting wand to wand with Death Eaters.  Activities like those are not safe, and they were, as Lupin says, being picked off one by one as they did them. If they had let the threat of assassination stop them, there couldn't have been an Order at all. 
 

I agree, Dumbledore did not have so many agents, so many people who were willing to risk their own lives to defend others and do dangerous things that the Ministry was unable or unwilling to undertake,  that he could take two of them out of the fight and get nothing in exchange.

> Nikkalmati
> 
> Presumably Snape felt obliged by having given his word..

Pippin:
That didn't stop him from breaking his word to Voldemort. He could have broken his word to Dumbledore, but he didn't. I agree that he thought Dumbledore had the best chance of defeating LV. If so, learning that Dumbledore had misled him about Harry's role wouldn't change anything. 

So I am not sure how that compares to  the obligations laid on Death Eaters. Dumbledore was not going to murder Snape if Snape didn't agree to serve him. 

 I can see a comparison between Voldemort's manipulation of Draco and Dumbledore's manipulation of Harry. Both boys were naively devoted and certain they would receive the power to do something which any reasonable person could see was completely beyond their abilities and always would be. Dumbledore, like Voldemort, took full advantage of that. 

But the difference is that Dumbledore really did have a plan to defeat Voldemort and Harry really was instrumental in it, whereas Draco's mission to kill Dumbledore was never serious on LV's side.

Pippin





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 03:03:37 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 03:03:37 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jjdmiu+nq91@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jjega9+j4c6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191916



.> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > This is not a fair comparison.  I was suggesting DD should have inquired into Sirius' situation, not that he should have protected him (unless the inquiry showed he was innocent). 
> 
> Pippin:
> But that's just it. Dumbledore's enquiries showed that Sirius was guilty. We don't know what evidence James and Sirius contrived to persuade everyone that Sirius was the secret keeper, but it's canon that they planned to do so,   and that everyone, including Dumbledore, was fooled. That, plus the eyewitness testimony of all those Muggles (which couldn't be checked since they were all memory charmed afterwards), clinched the case. 

Alla:

Which inquiries did Dumbledore conduct? 


Pippin:
> Dumbledore didn't randomly interrogate prisoners to get their side of the story. He looked into Hokey's case and Morfin's because he suspected there was a connection with Voldemort which the Ministry was refusing to see. 
 
> There was no need to do that with Sirius -- the Ministry had no problems believing that he was connected to Voldemort.  So from Dumbledore's point of view there was nothing he needed to find out. 

Alla:

But he interrogated him in PoA, no?


> 
> Nikkalmati:
> 
>  Just like he protected Harry from the Wizengamot.  Protecting Sirius after the Prank and Draco in the last year was not protecting the innocent.  Lupin was, of course, innocent, but he needed no protecting at that time.  DD was the legal system at Hogwarts, so if he ignored the events - there was no justice.  
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Dumbledore knew the Ministry was out to get Harry and using the Wizengamot as its tool. He had no reason to think there was some political grudge against Sirius. 

<snipping prank, because I cant change my view on it>

Pippin: 
>  While Draco undoubtedly deserved some punishment, even Harry did not think he deserved to be murdered, and that's what would have happened to him if Dumbledore had exposed his crimes.

Alla:

By whom? By Voldemort or somebody else? And if protection of the innocent was so important to Dumbledore, Draco was guilty not innocent, all the students who were exposed to the murderer in training were innocent IMO.

Pippin:
> If by justice you mean punishment for the guilty, then yes, Dumbledore believes protecting the innocent is more important. Reasonable people can disagree about that -- but I wouldn't call either viewpoint sinister. 

Alla:

I think we just disagree on who was innocent in each situation, because I actually also agree that protecting the innocent is more important then punishing the guilty. It is not for me about interfering on behalf of who deserved it, or I guess it is if by "who deserved it" you mean who was innocent in the situation.

Anybody who had been posting for a long time knows how much I hate Snape, but even I pity Snape so much every time I think of a young man who came to Dumbledore for help and instead got himself in the lifetime of slavery. Yes, I know, he could have left in theory and it was not unbreakable vow. I think Dumbledore had the power to bind people to him without any vow. And before you ask, no Dumbledore did not owe anything to Snape, but I wish (of course mostly for Harry's sake) that Dumbledore would have told him to leave, because I do not believe for a second that he would not have done anything to protect Potters anyway.

> 
> 
> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > Even I don't think DD would fail to protect Lily and James after he had been told they were marked by LV.  If he thought he could easily lose more of his own people, he must have had more followers than we know about.  :>) I don't doubt he would have done just what he did do.  He advised them to go into hiding, offered to be their Secret Keeper, and probably cast the Fidelius Charm.
> 
> Pippin:
>  James and Lily were already at risk before Harry was born -- they had defied Voldemort three times.  JKR is maddeningly vague about what James and LIly did for the Order. But look at what the others did: guarding Harry and others who were unable to defend themselves, negotiating with Giants, breaking into restricted areas of the Ministry, fighting wand to wand with Death Eaters.  Activities like those are not safe, and they were, as Lupin says, being picked off one by one as they did them. If they had let the threat of assassination stop them, there couldn't have been an Order at all.

Alla:

But Snape increased this threat in my opinion.



Pippin:
> So I am not sure how that compares to  the obligations laid on Death Eaters. Dumbledore was not going to murder Snape if Snape didn't agree to serve him. 

Alla:

I want to believe that he was not going to murder Snape, but I am pretty confident about speculation that he would have cheerfully let Snape go to Azkaban. He 100% deserved it if you ask me, but no, I do not consider the choice "Azkaban or servitude" to be a real choice at all.

Alla.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 03:52:34 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 03:52:34 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 9: The Dark Mark
Message-ID: <jjej62+e3rl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191917

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
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GOBLET OF FIRE CH. 9: The Dark Mark.
(With many thanks to Zara for her invaluable help ??)
After the game Mr. Weasley and the kids get back to their tents. On their way
back Arthur tells the twins not to tell their mother that they gambled. 
Everybody seems to fall asleep. They are awoken from their sleep by Mr. Weasley
and told to go outside. While outside Harry, Ron and Hermione see masked people
floating four muggles, including Mr. Roberts. Ministry wizards appear, but they
seem to exercise caution because they do not want the floating muggles to fall.
Harry, Ron, and Hermione run to the woods, where they meet Draco Malfoy, who
suggests to Ron that he does not want those masked wizards to spot Hermione
because they won't be nice to her, as she is a Mudblood. Mayhem continues, and
Harry hears a spell and huge skull appears in the air. Hermione helpfully
suggests that this is a Dark Mark, Voldemort's sign. Finally ministry wizards
find them (Crouch, Diggory, and Arthur Weasley, who went to help the ministry,
are amongst them) and they at first think that the kids conjured Dark Mark, but
then abandon this idea. After the masked wizards  Disapparate, Ministry wizards
find an unconscious House Elf, who has a wand in her hands, which seems to have
performed the Morsmordre spell, to conjure the Dark Mark. Winky turns to be
Crouch's House elf and he punishes her by giving her clothes. Hermione is upset
over Mr. Crouch's treatment of the house elf. Arthur Weasley tells Hermione that
he agrees with her, but now it is not the time to discuss house elves' rights.
They get back to their tent where we learn from Arthur that Voldemort's
supporters, who were called Death Eaters, usually conjured Dark Mark when they
killed somebody and the consensus seems to be that Death Eaters are the ones who
did it this time as well.

1. What did you think of Arthur's parenting when he told twins not to tell their
mother that they gambled?
2. What was your first thought when you read about masked wizards torturing
Muggles if you remember?
3. Did you believe everything that Draco Malfoy said?
4. When you learned that Voldemort's followers are called Death Eaters, did you
wonder about the origins of the name, did you have any theories of your own?
What were they?
5. What did you think about Stan's scene in this chapter, does anything in that
scene contribute to your opinion that Stan was not (or, that Stan was) a Death
Eater?

6. Which one of the Ministry workers that we meet in this chapter is in your
opinion the best representative of what Ministry of magic stands for and why?


7. Your own question?
NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next, Chapter 10 of Goblet of Fire coming up soon. If you would like to volunteer
to lead a GOF chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner@
yahoogroups.com
(without the space).


Alla.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 11 16:56:03 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Mar 2012 16:56:03 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/11/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1331484963.9.55031.m14@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191918

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 03:28:03 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey Overton)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 03:28:03 -0000
Subject: What magical creature would you want as a pet?
Message-ID: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191919

Hey group, just wondering what some group members would want as
a pet from the list of magical creatures. I'd like a hippogriff,
'cause they're nice and cuddly.

Corey




From technomad at intergate.com  Mon Mar 12 05:53:29 2012
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:53:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What magical creature would you want as a pet?
In-Reply-To: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com>
References: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20120312005329.q0majdoe80gk04cg@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191920

Quoting Corey Overton <coverton1982 at hotmail.com>:

> Hey group, just wondering what some group members would want as
> a pet from the list of magical creatures. I'd like a hippogriff,
> 'cause they're nice and cuddly.
>
Assuming that asking for a pet Luna Lovegood is right out...I'd go  
with a kneazle.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Mon Mar 12 09:55:07 2012
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:55:07 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What magical creature would you want as a pet?
In-Reply-To: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com>
References: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4F5DC7FB.7030109@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191921

On 12/03/2012 03:28, Corey Overton wrote:
> Hey group, just wondering what some group members would want as
> a pet from the list of magical creatures. I'd like a hippogriff,
> 'cause they're nice and cuddly.


AJM:
Well, as I like small furry animals, I'd probably go for something like 
a niffler as they're small,furry and black.  Also wouldn't mind one of 
those black rats that were described in the shop where Crookshanks came 
from in book 3, I keep rats anyway so a magical one would be interesting 
(as long as it didn't turn out to be Wormtail like Scabbers did!)  As in 
the real world with animals like large snakes and big cats, although 
they're interesting to hear about you wouldn't want one as a pet.  For 
me the same thing would go for animals like, say, dragons.  Although 
they're extremely fascinating to hear about, you wouldn't want it in the 
house.

AJM




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 10:56:49 2012
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 05:56:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What magical creature would you want as a pet?
In-Reply-To: <4F5DC7FB.7030109@btinternet.com>
References: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com> <4F5DC7FB.7030109@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds7BE60567225ACB015EE72D55B0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 191922

> AJM:
> Well, as I like small furry animals, I'd probably go for something like
a niffler as they're small,furry and black. Also wouldn't mind one of
those black rats that were described in the shop where Crookshanks came
from in book 3, I keep rats anyway so a magical one would be interesting
(as long as it didn't turn out to be Wormtail like Scabbers did!) As in
the real world with animals like large snakes and big cats, although
they're interesting to hear about you wouldn't want one as a pet. For
me the same thing would go for animals like, say, dragons. Although
they're extremely fascinating to hear about, you wouldn't want it in
> the house.


Corey:
Yeah, I guess that's true. Although we got to be careful with those
nifflers so they don't wreck your house.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Tue Mar 13 16:14:11 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:14:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What magical creature would you want as a pet?
In-Reply-To: <4F5DC7FB.7030109@btinternet.com>
References: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com> <4F5DC7FB.7030109@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <1331655251.94648.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





On 12/03/2012 03:28, Corey Overton wrote:
> Hey group, just wondering what some group members would want as
> a pet from the list of magical creatures. I'd like a hippogriff,
> 'cause they're nice and cuddly.

June:
I would so love to have a Niffler. I?used to have this wonderful black and white cat, named Draco because she was such a little brat lol. but I nicknamed her Niffler because it turned out she liked to steel things. Any thing including the $3.00 in coins I never did find lol. I have a new b&w cat named Mr. Paws that I started to joke is part Niffler because he has turned out to be as bad as Draco for stealing things. I do though think it would be really cool to have one (if I could train it not to destroy the apt) lol.






From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Wed Mar 14 11:00:37 2012
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:00:37 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What magical creature would you want as a pet?
In-Reply-To: <1331655251.94648.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com> <4F5DC7FB.7030109@btinternet.com> <1331655251.94648.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D69404117F5341FAA8528F2C0A1A1D5A@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 191924


I've been thinking about this for a few days and can't really decide!
As a lover of snakes, I'd have to pick the Runespoor.
As a lover of horses (without wings), I'd pick a unicorn.
As a lover of parrots, I'd pick the Phoenix.

Then there are Griffons, Hippogriffs, Thestral and Dragons and of course 
owls.

I ruled out Griffons, Hippogriffs and Thestrals as with a fear of flying, I 
wouldn't ride them, and that kind of defeats the purpose of having such a 
beast! And Dragons are way to dangerous, although fascinating. Which leaves, 
Runespoor, Unicorn, Phoenix or an owl.

A Runespoor would be easy to keep, in a large vivarium out of sight of 
Muggles. They don't seem to live that long though.
A Unicorn is harder to keep, you'd have to have a secluded forest somewhere. 
I'd suspect that like the Rhino, it would be targeted by poachers. Would be 
great to ride though :).
A Phoenix can be kept indoors, but can disappear at will. Finding a tame one 
would be a problem, but they are very loyal once tamed.
Owls do not really need concealing, so would be the easiest to keep. Not 
particularly magical but great companions and able to delivery post.

Hmmm. I think I'd go with a Phoenix if I can find a tame one. Beautiful 
song, great companionship and loyalty and those healing tears. :)

Liz 




From maryannsears1972 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 20:16:37 2012
From: maryannsears1972 at gmail.com (Mary Ann Sears)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:16:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What magical creature would you want as a pet?
In-Reply-To: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com>
References: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002b01cd021f$6b62a100$4227e300$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191925

> Corey:
> Hey group, just wondering what some group members would want as 
> a pet from the list of magical creatures. I'd like a hippogriff, 
> 'cause they're nice and cuddly.


Mary Ann:
I would like a dragon or an owl.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 14 21:33:55 2012
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:33:55 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 9: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <jjej62+e3rl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jjr2s3+ogh8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191926

 
> 1. What did you think of Arthur's parenting when he told twins not to tell their
> mother that they gambled?

Potioncat:
Well, the longer it is since the hot and heavy discussions, the less I tend to nitpick. So these days I see it as a simply a humorous moment in the life of a parent. It's one of those times a parent bends the rules (and Arthur excels at bending rules) but not a time he particularly wants to share with his partner. Have to admit, I've heard the words, "Let's not tell Dad about this" come out of my mouth on a rare occasion. 


> 2. What was your first thought when you read about masked wizards torturing Muggles if you remember?
Potioncat:
The ordinary disregard for Muggle rights ("Obliviate!")was disturbing enough. This was very scarey.

> 3. Did you believe everything that Draco Malfoy said?

Potioncat:
Not once in the 7 years have I believed "everything" Draco has said--but it did make me concerned for Hermione.

> 4. When you learned that Voldemort's followers are called Death Eaters, did you
> wonder about the origins of the name, did you have any theories of your own?
Potioncat:
It took me a long time to understand what it meant. 

> 5. What did you think about Stan's scene in this chapter, does anything in that
> scene contribute to your opinion that Stan was not (or, that Stan was) a Death
> Eater?

Potioncat:
Poor Stan, really wanted to be a somebody---should have been the best Stan he could be without trying to be something else. I don't think he was a willing Death Eater, but on the other hand, I don't he would have much reserve to resist either seduction or a spell.

Thank you Alla (and Zara) for these interesting questions. Sorry I didn't get to read the chapter itself before responding. Thorough summary was a help!





From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 22:10:24 2012
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:10:24 -0000
Subject: What magical creature would you want as a pet?
In-Reply-To: <002b01cd021f$6b62a100$4227e300$@com>
Message-ID: <jjr50g+dh80@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191927


> > Corey:
> > Hey group, just wondering what some group members would want as 
> > a pet from the list of magical creatures. I'd like a hippogriff, 
> > 'cause they're nice and cuddly.
> 
> 
> sartoris22:

Buckbeat. A flying animal that I can ride--you bet. Because I wouldn't ride it bareback like Sirius or Harry, I'd have to fashion a saddle of some sort. Still,  I'd rule the skies. Plus, I'd train it to hunt and eat rats. In New York, it would be one happy magical creature.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 14 22:42:02 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:42:02 -0000
Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most?
In-Reply-To: <jjega9+j4c6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jjr6rq+21ef@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191928


> > 
> > Pippin:
> > But that's just it. Dumbledore's enquiries showed that Sirius was guilty. We don't know what evidence James and Sirius contrived to persuade everyone that Sirius was the secret keeper, but it's canon that they planned to do so,   and that everyone, including Dumbledore, was fooled. That, plus the eyewitness testimony of all those Muggles (which couldn't be checked since they were all memory charmed afterwards), clinched the case. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Which inquiries did Dumbledore conduct? 

Pippin:
The inquiries into who was passing information about James and Lily's movements to Voldemort. Dumbledore had gathered enough evidence to suggest that it would be unsafe to make Sirius the secret keeper. He had probably by that time developed a theory of the case that excluded Peter Pettigrew as the spy for the same reasons that Sirius thought no one would believe he was the secret keeper. 

> 
> Pippin:
> > Dumbledore didn't randomly interrogate prisoners to get their side of the story. He looked into Hokey's case and Morfin's because he suspected there was a connection with Voldemort which the Ministry was refusing to see. 
>  
> > There was no need to do that with Sirius -- the Ministry had no problems believing that he was connected to Voldemort.  So from Dumbledore's point of view there was nothing he needed to find out. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> But he interrogated him in PoA, no?

Pippin:
Snape's evidence from the Shack didn't make Sirius look innocent, but it  didn't fit Dumbledore's theory either. Dumbledore thought Lupin was innocent, so what was he doing in the Shrieking Shack being all palsy with Sirius? Also, Snape only heard Lupin's story of how they had become Animagi. That didn't explain how Sirius had broken out of Azkaban or how he was getting into the castle. And where was Lupin, anyway? Still safely tied up in the Shrieking Shack? Loose in the Castle? 

But any of those questions would lead Sirius to confirm Lupin's account of becoming Animagi, with the additional information that James had been a stag. And then Dumbledore remembered the shape of Harry's patronus. Sirius couldn't know about that, unless he'd gotten the information from Lupin. 

 So either Lupin is conspiring with Sirius, which Dumbledore doesn't believe, or Dumbledore's own theory about Sirius had to be wrong. 

 Sirius also seems to have related the story of how Harry had stopped him from killing Peter. He said in the Shack that  Harry  had a right to decide. No Death Eater would think like that. 

> Pippin: 
> >  While Draco undoubtedly deserved some punishment, even Harry did not think he deserved to be murdered, and that's what would have happened to him if Dumbledore had exposed his crimes.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> By whom? By Voldemort or somebody else? And if protection of the innocent was so important to Dumbledore, Draco was guilty not innocent, all the students who were exposed to the murderer in training were innocent IMO.

Pippin: 
Voldemort or his henchmen, what difference does it make? The only reason Draco hadn't been murdered already was that Voldemort was finding it more amusing to make him (and Lucius) squirm. 

The principal that a minor child has diminished responsibility for his actions is known in the wizarding world -- no one would expect Dumbledore to treat Draco like an adult criminal, certainly not after he himself criticized Fudge for doing so in Harry's case. Many wizards who were older and wiser than Draco had crumpled when Voldemort threatened their families. No one would expect Draco to stand up to Voldemort alone. And if Dumbledore did not defend Draco, who would?


> 
> Pippin:
> > If by justice you mean punishment for the guilty, then yes, Dumbledore believes protecting the innocent is more important. Reasonable people can disagree about that -- but I wouldn't call either viewpoint sinister. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> 
> Anybody who had been posting for a long time knows how much I hate Snape, but even I pity Snape so much every time I think of a young man who came to Dumbledore for help and instead got himself in the lifetime of slavery.

Pippin:
Snape's slavery began when he enlisted with Voldemort. But he did not come to Dumbledore begging for freedom, but only for Lily's life. I don't know that he valued  freedom any more than Kreacher did, sad to say. 

You seem not to understand how Harry, Snape and Sirius could voluntarily obey Dumbledore when it was against their own interest and not question his decisions. But we are speaking of intensely focused, dedicated people with an attraction to risk, who live in a culture where such qualities are esteemed. 

 Such people easily fall into what is called a "mission mindset". They don't have to be manipulated to challenge the odds when other people's lives are at stake. The difficulty in real life, as in canon, is often in persuading them *not* to do it.

A lot of helicopter rescue crews have gone down because they refused to make a no-go decision knowing that a life might be lost if they did. Finally it became policy not to tell the crew whether a life was at stake, so that the go/no go decision could be made on strictly operational grounds. The idea was that the percentage was better if a victim was lost than if a whole crew went down (along with the victim in some cases.)

Pippin




From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Fri Mar 16 02:49:16 2012
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (?????alabio???)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 02:49:16 +0000
Subject: Cracked takes on Harry Potter.
Message-ID: <9881E05D-D1B4-4D0E-8149-2F8C90EF78D8@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191929

	http://cracked.com/article_19667_6-horrifying-implications-harry-potter-universe.html

Walabio



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 16 17:35:50 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 17:35:50 -0000
Subject: What magical creature would you want as a pet?
In-Reply-To: <jjjqg3+jsl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jjvtlm+ehn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191930



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Corey Overton" <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:
>
> Hey group, just wondering what some group members would want as
> a pet from the list of magical creatures. I'd like a hippogriff,
> 'cause they're nice and cuddly.
>

Pippin:
I'd love a flying horse or a phoenix. The phoenix would definitely be more practical, except for the whole bursting into flames thing. That could be awkward.

Pippin





From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Mar 17 16:41:53 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 12:41:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cracked takes on Harry Potter.
In-Reply-To: <9881E05D-D1B4-4D0E-8149-2F8C90EF78D8@MacOSX.Com>
References: <9881E05D-D1B4-4D0E-8149-2F8C90EF78D8@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <4F64BED1.2080406@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191931

On 3/15/2012 10:49 PM, Diablo wrote:
> 	http://cracked.com/article_19667_6-horrifying-implications-harry-potter-universe.html

Bart:
     Several of the items there have been mentioned in this group. One 
thing I had mentioned was, why can't a muggle-born wizard set up a 
muggle death trap, say "Voldemort", make himself scarce and watch the 
fun. Mind you, it can only be used a couple of times before the bad guys 
catch on, but still, to go to a remote area, set up something that kills 
very quickly, and watch the fun.

     One problem with the article is that it goes by the movies instead 
of the books, and the movies, by necessity, leave out a LOT (such as 
laws protecting muggles form abuse by wizards).

     Bart






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 17 22:14:53 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 22:14:53 -0000
Subject: Cracked takes on Harry Potter.
In-Reply-To: <4F64BED1.2080406@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <jk32ct+ci2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191932



-
> Bart:
>      Several of the items there have been mentioned in this group. One 
> thing I had mentioned was, why can't a muggle-born wizard set up a 
> muggle death trap, say "Voldemort", make himself scarce and watch the 
> fun. Mind you, it can only be used a couple of times before the bad guys 
> catch on, but still, to go to a remote area, set up something that kills 
> very quickly, and watch the fun.

Pippin:

Voldemort, n?e Riddle, knows all about Muggle death traps. I agree that wizards aren't necessarily bullet-proof, but a shield charm combined with a disillusionment charm and a flame-freezing charm would probably be a saving throw for Muggle weapons -- and you don't suppose Voldemort or his DE's go about without such protection, do you?

If the DE's were in the habit of walking into traps, the Aurors would've caught them a long time ago.

 Pippin




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 18 16:55:51 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 18 Mar 2012 16:55:51 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/18/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1332089751.20.77520.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191933

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday March 18, 2012
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
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From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 01:41:00 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 01:41:00 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 9: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <jjej62+e3rl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jk8n7c+ufe7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191934





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 1. What did you think of Arthur's parenting when he told twins not to tell their
> mother that they gambled?

Nikkalmati

I thought he was giving them good advice.  I was hardly shocked.  Lots of parents handle problems with a "less said the better" attitude.

Nikkalmati

> 2. What was your first thought when you read about masked wizards torturing
> Muggles if you remember?

Nikkalmati

I was not sure how to take it.  Were they actually hurting them?  Were the Muggles conscious?  Why was everyone so afraid? Who were these people? 

Nikkalmati

> 3. Did you believe everything that Draco Malfoy said?

Nikkalmati

I thought he was really trying to be helpful in a snide kind of way.  I am still thinking it was a warning more than an insult.  Just in case Ron hadn't figured it out yet.

Nikkalmati


> 4. When you learned that Voldemort's followers are called Death Eaters, did you
> wonder about the origins of the name, did you have any theories of your own?

Nikkalmati

I still haven't figured it out.
Nikkalmati
> 
> 5. What did you think about Stan's scene in this chapter, does anything in that
> scene contribute to your opinion that Stan was not (or, that Stan was) a Death
> Eater?
> Nikkalmati

He seemed like he was very maleable, no backbone.  I didn't like him much.

Nikkalmati 
> 6. Which one of the Ministry workers that we meet in this chapter is in your
> opinion the best representative of what Ministry of magic stands for and why?
> 
> Nikkalmati

I remember the poor overworked guards trying to keep evverything in order, but not receiving any respect.  I also recall Ludo Bagman who got his job on influence and never seems to do anything he is supposed to do.
Nikkalmati 
> 7. Your own question?
Nikkalmati

Was Barty Jr. in league with the Death Eaters who provided the distraction for him to get away or did he just take advantage of it?

Nikkalmati
> 
> Alla.
>





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 18:35:23 2012
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:35:23 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 9: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <jjr2s3+ogh8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jkfrdb+s6u4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191935





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

>> 4. When you learned that Voldemort's followers are called 
>> Death Eaters, did you wonder about the origins of the name, 
>> did you have any theories of your own?

> Potioncat:

> It took me a long time to understand what it meant. 

zanooda:

What *does* it mean? I still don't know ))).





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 25 16:56:00 2012
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 25 Mar 2012 16:56:00 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/25/2012, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1332694560.8.80774.m1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191936

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday March 25, 2012
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2012 
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From ospreyemblem at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 02:19:53 2012
From: ospreyemblem at yahoo.com (ospreyemblem)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 02:19:53 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
Message-ID: <jktsg9+tqp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191937

>From the Pottermore Insider, We know that Pottermore will officially be open to the general public in early April of this year. Be there.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Mar 30 13:36:16 2012
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 06:36:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <jktsg9+tqp1@eGroups.com>
References: <jktsg9+tqp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1333114576.1073.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191938

> ospreyemblem wrote:
> From the Pottermore Insider, We know that Pottermore will officially
> be open to the general public in early April of this year. Be there.

June:
I guess I am an insider too but I haven't been there for a while. I
need to go back and see if I can mix a potion yet without blowing
everything up. Just call me Seamus, lol.





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 04:05:49 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 04:05:49 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <1333114576.1073.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <jl5vqt+tdcq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 191939



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
>
> > ospreyemblem wrote:
> > From the Pottermore Insider, We know that Pottermore will officially
> > be open to the general public in early April of this year. Be there.
> 
> June:
> I guess I am an insider too but I haven't been there for a while. I
> need to go back and see if I can mix a potion yet without blowing
> everything up. Just call me Seamus, lol.
>
Nikkalmati

Go back over the chapters too.  Some new stuff.

Nikkalmati