From liz.treky at ntlworld.com Tue May 1 07:55:29 2012 From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 08:55:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 191990 > Kelly: > Been a beta since August. Wanted Slytherin but got Ravenclaw. If > I can't be in Snape's house, at least I'm still a brain. Liz: You're brainy not brawny, Snape would be pleased :) From randmath23 at yahoo.com Tue May 1 17:18:36 2012 From: randmath23 at yahoo.com (randy mathias) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 10:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: pottermore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1335892716.72490.YahooMailNeo@web163102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 191991 > > Randmath23 wrote: > > Has the Pottermore web site been open up yet for everyone. > > Every time I go the to the site, it is still in Beta. I can > > not wait to visit the site. > Kimberly: > Yes, it opened for everyone on April 14th. Thanks. I have already registered. I cannot wait to explore the site. Randmath23 From patcross719 at hotmail.com Wed May 2 03:09:55 2012 From: patcross719 at hotmail.com (southerngalnc1) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 03:09:55 -0000 Subject: new Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 191992 Hi there, I'm new to the site. I have read the books, watch the movies, and playing the Deathly Hallow Part 1 on nintendo ds. southerngalnc1 From patcross719 at hotmail.com Wed May 2 03:23:27 2012 From: patcross719 at hotmail.com (southerngalnc1) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 03:23:27 -0000 Subject: Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) In-Reply-To: <1334511660.26895.YahooMailNeo@web120601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 191993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cristina Angelo wrote: > > I think the reason they never noticed Tom in Quirrel's head was because Lord Voldemort's real name was not very well known, and the twins didn't recognize it. > southerngalnc1: Harry was caught by Snape in the hall. Snape had Harry empty his pockets out. It was a piece of paper in his pocket. When Harry read what was written on the paper, it insulted Snape. Lupin came up and took Harry to the classroom. He knew it was the map and kept it. Harry told him that the map wasn't right. It showed someone that was known to be dead, Peter. Later Lupin told Harry that the map never lies. This is how Lupin knew that Peter was still alive. That one room is secert. This is why it's not shown. From dea_weasley at hotmail.com Wed May 2 05:36:20 2012 From: dea_weasley at hotmail.com (Andrea Vieira ) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 05:36:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 191994 > Cristina Angelo wrote: > > I think the reason they never noticed Tom in Quirrel's head was because Lord Voldemort's real name was not very well known, and the twins didn't recognize it. > Andrea: I agree. They just knew him as Lord Voldemort not as Tom Riddle. From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 2 07:41:27 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 00:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] new In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1335944487.86057.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 191995 Let me be one of the first to welcome you to the group. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics ________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 2 07:50:30 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 00:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) In-Reply-To: References: <1334511660.26895.YahooMailNeo@web120601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1335945030.28141.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 191996 >> Cristina Angelo wrote: >> I think the reason they never noticed Tom in Quirrel's head was because Lord Voldemort's real name was not very well known, >> and the twins didn't recognize it. > southerngalnc1: > Harry was caught by Snape in the hall. Snape had Harry empty his > pockets out. It was a piece of paper in his pocket. When Harry read what was written on the paper, it insulted Snape. Lupin came up and took Harry to the classroom. He knew it was the map and kept > it. Harry told him that the map wasn't right. It showed someone that was known to be dead, Peter. Later Lupin told Harry that the map never lies. This is how Lupin knew that Peter was still alive. > That one room is secert. This is why it's not shown. Bruce: None of the rooms that were unknown to the map builders, or are not always there, would show up. This is true. However, the question is really whether or not if a person is possessed of more than one spirit (soul or partial soul) what would show up on the Map. Specifically, would Tom Riddle show up as part of Quirrell, or only Quirrell? It seems that only Quirrell must have shown up. Riddle's soul was so fragmented by his evil that it may not have been recognizably human. In fact, we get the sense from many of the books -- even way back in Book 1 when Hagrid is talking to Harry -- that Riddle is not human anymore. This could be why he did not show up on the Marauder's Map. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 2 08:03:43 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 01:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1335945823.65572.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 191997 Actually, with so many people afraid to say the name, it is possible they only knew him as You-Know-Who. Hardly a recognizable name. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Wed May 2 20:02:57 2012 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Angelo) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 20:02:57 -0000 Subject: Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) In-Reply-To: <1335945030.28141.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 191998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bruce Mull wrote: > > Bruce: > None of the rooms that were unknown to the map builders, or are > not always there, would show up. This is true. However, the > question is really whether or not if a person is possessed of > more than one spirit (soul or partial soul) what would show up > on the Map. Specifically, would Tom Riddle show up as part of > Quirrell, or only Quirrell? > > It seems that only Quirrell must have shown up. Riddle's soul > was so fragmented by his evil that it may not have been > recognizably human. In fact, we get the sense from many of the > books -- even way back in Book 1 when Hagrid is talking to Harry > -- that Riddle is not human anymore. This could be why he did not > show up on the Marauder's Map. > > Dr Bruce P. Mull > Professor of Computer Science > Professor of Mathematics > That may be the best magical explanation. Animals appeared, but not ghosts, iirc. Riddle was not a ghost, but he was probably something in between a human and a ghost - 1/7th of a soul, and physically... whatever it was (it's probably been debated here in the many years this group has existed). The dark magic involved in achieving that state was most likely beyond anything the Marauders could comprehend. For instance, as mentioned here, the Marauders weren't able to "program" the map to recognize the kind of magic necessary to recognize the Room of Requirement (not saying it was dark, only that it was too advanced). From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Thu May 3 10:05:51 2012 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (Cristina Angelo) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 10:05:51 -0000 Subject: Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192000 Correction: 1/8th of a soul -7 voluntary horcruxes, plus Harry. Which makes me wonder if Riddle would appear attached to Harry if the Map could recognize that kind of magic... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cristina Angelo" wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bruce Mull wrote: > > > > > Bruce: > > None of the rooms that were unknown to the map builders, or are > > not always there, would show up. This is true. However, the > > question is really whether or not if a person is possessed of > > more than one spirit (soul or partial soul) what would show up > > on the Map. Specifically, would Tom Riddle show up as part of > > Quirrell, or only Quirrell? > > > > It seems that only Quirrell must have shown up. Riddle's soul > > was so fragmented by his evil that it may not have been > > recognizably human. In fact, we get the sense from many of the > > books -- even way back in Book 1 when Hagrid is talking to Harry > > -- that Riddle is not human anymore. This could be why he did not > > show up on the Marauder's Map. > > > > Dr Bruce P. Mull > > Professor of Computer Science > > Professor of Mathematics > > > > That may be the best magical explanation. Animals appeared, but not ghosts, iirc. Riddle was not a ghost, but he was probably something in between a human and a ghost - 1/7th of a soul, and physically... whatever it was (it's probably been debated here in the many years this group has existed). The dark magic involved in achieving that state was most likely beyond anything the Marauders could comprehend. For instance, as mentioned here, the Marauders weren't able to "program" the map to recognize the kind of magic necessary to recognize the Room of Requirement (not saying it was dark, only that it was too advanced). > From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Thu May 3 10:58:30 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 10:58:30 -0000 Subject: Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cristina Angelo" wrote: Bruce: > > None of the rooms that were unknown to the map builders, or are > > not always there, would show up. This is true. However, the > > question is really whether or not if a person is possessed of > > more than one spirit (soul or partial soul) what would show up > > on the Map. Specifically, would Tom Riddle show up as part of > > Quirrell, or only Quirrell? > > > > It seems that only Quirrell must have shown up. Riddle's soul > > was so fragmented by his evil that it may not have been > > recognizably human. In fact, we get the sense from many of the > > books -- even way back in Book 1 when Hagrid is talking to Harry > > -- that Riddle is not human anymore. This could be why he did not > > show up on the Marauder's Map. Cristina: > That may be the best magical explanation. Animals appeared, but not ghosts, iirc. Riddle > was not a ghost, but he was probably something in between a human and a ghost - > 1/7th of a soul, and physically... whatever it was (it's probably been debated here in the > many years this group has existed). The dark magic involved in achieving that state was > most likely beyond anything the Marauders could comprehend. For instance, as > mentioned here, the Marauders weren't able to "program" the map to recognize the kind > of magic necessary to recognize the Room of Requirement (not saying it was dark, only > that it was too advanced). Geoff: I did suggest sometime ago (in post 191964) that the Map's magic, which was set up by the Marauders, sensed the magical signature of an individual and identified Quirrell as the "owner" of his body since Voldemort's presence was, in a sense, a parasite. We have cases where the Ministry tracks wand use and apparently knows the owner - underage cases being an obvious one for example. Presumably since Quirrell would be the one wielding the wand, the Map would pick up on him. As I remarked before, the Map is an incredible piece of magical construction and shows how well-developed the skills of the Marauders were. In addition to locating the position of wizards within its area of operation and naming them, it must also update automatically every September with the names of the incoming First Year and any new members of staff. In regard to the Room of Requirement, I believe that the Room of Requirement wasn't on the Map because its makers did not know of its existence and to that end, there is a lot of canon evidence in a conversation between Dobby and Harry in Chapter 18 of OOTP: `"I need to find a place where twenty-eight people can practise Defence Against the Dark Arts without being discovered by any of the teachers " "Dobby knows the perfect place, sir!" he said happily. "Dobby heard tell of it from the other house-elves when he came to Hogwarts, sir. It is known by us as the Come and Go Room, sir, or else the Room of Requirement!" Why?" said Harry curiously. "Because it is a room that a person can only enter," said Dobby seriously, "when they have real need of it Dobby has used it and Dobby knows that Mr. Filch has found extra cleaning materials there " "How many people know about it?" said Harry, sitting up straighter in his chair. "Very few, sir. Mostly people stumble across it when they needs it but often they never finds it again "' (OOTP "Dumbledore's Army" p.343 UK edition) and there is a further reference adding to the evidence later in the chapter: `"Well," said Harry, slightly nervously. "This is the place we've found for practice sessions and you've ? er - obviously found it OK." "It's fantastic!" said Cho and several people murmured their agreement. "It's bizarre," said Fred, frowning round at it. "We once hid from Filch in here, remember, George? But it was just a broom cupboard then"' (ibid. p.346) From bpmull at yahoo.com Thu May 3 10:43:14 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 03:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1336041794.66125.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Slightly OT: > Cristina Angelo cristina_angelo at yahoo.com said > Correction: 1/8th of a soul -7 voluntary horcruxes, plus Harry. Which makes me wonder if Riddle would appear attached to Harry if > the Map could recognize that kind of magic... ? Bruce: Actually, each time a Horcrux is made, the soul is ripped in half. So, by the time Harry came along?Voldy had only 1/32 of?his soul (diary 1/2, ring 1/4, locket 1/8, cup 1/16 and diadem 1/32 - there is good evidence for this ordering).?Thus, Harry has 1/64 of Voldy's soul and after being restored to a body, Voldy split THAT in half to create Nagini, so Harry has more Voldy in him than Voldy himself! Isn't THAT weird? Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Thu May 3 14:01:12 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 14:01:12 -0000 Subject: Quirrell & Voldemort (was Re: Marauder's map question, prior to PoA) In-Reply-To: <1336041794.66125.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bruce Mull wrote: > > Slightly OT: > > Cristina Angelo cristina_angelo at ... said > > Correction: 1/8th of a soul -7 voluntary horcruxes, plus Harry. > Which makes me wonder if Riddle would appear attached to Harry if > > the Map could recognize that kind of magic... > Bruce: > Actually, each time a Horcrux is made, the soul is ripped in half. > So, by the time Harry came along?Voldy had only 1/32 of?his soul > (diary 1/2, ring 1/4, locket 1/8, cup 1/16 and diadem 1/32 - there > is good evidence for this ordering).?Thus, Harry has 1/64 of Voldy's > soul and after being restored to a body, Voldy split THAT in half to > create Nagini, so Harry has more Voldy in him than Voldy himself! > Isn't THAT weird? Geoff: At the risk of being pedantic, I could say "That ain't necessarily so..." :-) Certainly in the early references in HBP Chapter 23 "Horcruxes", both Slughorn in the Pensieve conversation with Tom Riddle and Dumbledore in his follow up discussion with Harry merely talk about a soul being split, neither specifying "in half". Even under those circumstances, the soul might not split EXACTLY equally so that there is a probability that your hypothesis might not be correct. Geoff Retired Maths and Computing teacher UK From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 6 16:55:05 2012 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 May 2012 16:55:05 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/6/2012, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1336323305.9.17005.m8@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192005 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 6, 2012 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klewellen at shellworld.net Sun May 6 20:46:59 2012 From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 16:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: unique pottermore question? In-Reply-To: <1336323305.9.17005.m8@yahoogroups.com> References: <1336323305.9.17005.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192006 Greetings folks, Writing for a person who is wanting to use pottermore with a screen reader. I have her permission to connect her electronically with anyone who may be able to help. Apparently the guide materials do not address her specific needs. Feel free to write off list if you are making use of the items at pottermore with speech. thanks, Karen From bart at moosewise.com Mon May 7 01:06:11 2012 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 21:06:11 -0400 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels Message-ID: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192007 There are a number of things that I really wish that JKR had included in the Harry Potter novels which, for whatever reason, she didn't. I'll mention a couple, and, more importantly, why I think that it was a mistake. For example, the lack of "Good Slytherins", at least among the students. The Sorting Hat kept talking about unity between the houses, but the Slytherin students were, at best, neutral, and, at worst, on the side of Morty. Would it have been too much to have a Slytherin on the side of Morty's opponents, possibly explaining about his joining the other Slytherins in tormenting Harry: "That was just a game. This is for real." As it is, JKR sends mixed messages. I also would have liked to have seen Unforgivable Curses be more than the political slogan it seems to be. It has been discussed here that there might be something more to the Unforgivable Curses than the name (after all, a number of people use them with no consequence, notably Harry himself). To give a reasonable example, they might have been considered Unforgivable (with a capital "U") not because of what it does to others, but what it does to the caster. The level of desire required to want to cause someone pain, control them, or cause them to die, unless for pure motives with a voluntary subject, should have been shown to damage the psyche of the caster; not as much as creating a horcrux, perhaps, but creating a corruption which, once present, cannot be removed. It made Harry a bit too much of a Christlike figure to not have him suffer the consequences of what he had to do in order to defeat Morty; the consequences were reserved for the more disposable characters. Even if it was just the regret that often hits people who peak too early, the ending was a bit too happy for my own taste. Bart From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 7 03:05:31 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 03:05:31 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192008 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > There are a number of things that I really wish that JKR had included in > the Harry Potter novels which, for whatever reason, she didn't. I'll > mention a couple, and, more importantly, why I think that it was a mistake. > Alla: Fun topic. I dont really have any which I thought was a mistake - there were definitely things which I disliked or wanted to go other way, but thats just me wishing for fulfilment of certain wishes, anything JKR did, I mean major plot turnss anyway, made sense for me if I think about it in a grand scheme of things in her story. Again, not that I *liked* everything, quite the contrary, but I think she was pretty consistent in executing her story and her characters. Anyway, so here is what I definitely would have loved to see, for Harry and Sirius to spend more time together and for Sirius to survive. For Dumbledore to suffer real consequences of his manipulations and at the end of the story to be seen in real pain and asking for real forgiveness and for Harry to tell him to go and jump in the lake. For Snape? Hmm, nope that was quite good - he got everything I wanted for him to get ;) Actually, no wait, I may have couple of things which I may not consider very consistent. I guess House Unity message she never wanted to convey. While I did not care for good Slytherins to appear (I mean I did not care either way whether they would appear or not), the epilogue was kind of dissapointing in that regard. Albus still does not care to be in Slytherin - nothing seems to change. And I cant believe I am saying it, but as much as I hate Draco Malfoy, looking at it from the distance and not picking up books for about a year, I really do think that Tower was all for nothing and his character development which supposedly occurred in book 6 pretty much dissappeared in book seven. Thats about it I think. Alla From andy.mills at btinternet.com Mon May 7 08:55:18 2012 From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 09:55:18 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] unique pottermore question? In-Reply-To: References: <1336323305.9.17005.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4FA78DF6.1010407@btinternet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192009 On 06/05/2012 21:46, Karen Lewellen wrote: > Greetings folks, > Writing for a person who is wanting to use pottermore with a > screen reader. I have her permission to connect her > electronically with anyone who may be able to help. Apparently > the guide materials do not address her specific needs. Feel > free to write off list if you are making use of the items at > pottermore with speech. AJM: I would also be interested in any answers to this question as I also use speech to read the screen. I haven't tried to use the site yet but would be very interested to know whether or not it's possible so I'll know for the future whether or not the site is accessible to me. AJM From bpmull at yahoo.com Mon May 7 13:54:21 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 06:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <1336398861.32662.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192010 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > There are a number of things that I really wish that JKR had included in > the Harry Potter novels which, for whatever reason, she didn't. I'll > mention a couple, and, more importantly, why I think that it was a mistake. > One thing that JKR truly got wrong is the OWL system. There are seven required magical classes: Astronomy, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Herbology, History of Magic, Potions and Transfiguration. With the possible exception of History or Magic, each has a Theory and a Practical OWL. Thus, there are at least 13 OWLs here. In addition, beginning the third year, students take at least two classes from Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care of Magical Creatures, Divination, Muggle Studies and Numerology. Admitedly, Arithmancy and Numerology should be part of Divination, but they are listed as separate studies. These would each have both a Theory and Practical OWL, as well. Thus, at least 4 more OWLs. The point is, each student would have to sit at least 17 OWLs -- possibly more. [Not to mention any nonmagical classes which there would most certainly be, but which are never mentioned.] Therefore, how can the 12 OWLs of Percy be considered good? Also, have you attempted to organize these classes into a schedule? It cannot be done -- certainly not with the teachers listed -- but even if you add more teachers, there are conflicts with the story line which cannot be resolved with the single/double class system; unless, like the Room of Requirement, they come and go at different times. I would have like to have seen this system better thought out. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics ________________________________ From cresorchid at gmail.com Mon May 7 11:10:24 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 06:10:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> References: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192011 On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 8:06 PM, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > ** > > > There are a number of things that I really wish that JKR had included in > the Harry Potter novels which, for whatever reason, she didn't. I'll > mention a couple, and, more importantly, why I think that it was a mistake. > > For example, the lack of "Good Slytherins", at least among the students. > The Sorting Hat kept talking about unity between the houses, but the > Slytherin students were, at best, neutral, and, at worst, on the side of > Morty. Would it have been too much to have a Slytherin on the side of > Morty's opponents, possibly explaining about his joining the other > Slytherins in tormenting Harry: "That was just a game. This is for > real." As it is, JKR sends mixed messages. Crescent: I like those thoughts. Personally, I think the reason we don't see any good Slytherins is because even those who say they are neutral but actually support Harry would not be safe admitting that in Slytherin house. They need to pretend to be neutral at best or for Voldie. Of course, it might have been possible for one of them to join the DA after some trials or something to prove that they are good which would have been nice. Crescent From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 7 17:46:08 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:46:08 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <1336398861.32662.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bruce Mull wrote: > > The point is, each student would have to sit at least 17 OWLs -- possibly more. [Not to mention any nonmagical classes which there would most certainly be, but which are never mentioned.] Therefore, how can the 12 OWLs of Percy be considered good? Pippin: The practical and written tests for each subject are combined into one grade -- so Percy's twelve OWLs represent his seven required subjects and five electives. This is exceptional since there is only room for two electives a year in a normal schedule. Getting to OWL level in more than nine subjects requires either lots of independent study or a time turner. But I agree that there is no realism in the number of classes or teachers. The number twelve I think was chosen symbolically rather than by calculating how many teachers or classes would be needed to serve the number of students that JKR imagined attending the school. Pippin > > Also, have you attempted to organize these classes into a schedule? It cannot be done -- certainly not with the teachers listed -- but even if you add more teachers, there are conflicts with the story line which cannot be resolved with the single/double class system; unless, like the Room of Requirement, they come and go at different times. > > I would have like to have seen this system better thought out. > > Dr Bruce P. Mull > Professor of Computer Science > Professor of Mathematics > > > ________________________________ > From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 7 18:29:22 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 18:29:22 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192013 Alla: > Actually, no wait, I may have couple of things which I may not consider very consistent. I guess House Unity message she never wanted to convey. While I did not care for good Slytherins to appear (I mean I did not care either way whether they would appear or not), the epilogue was kind of dissapointing in that regard. Albus still does not care to be in Slytherin - nothing seems to change. Pippin: But something did change, because Harry and Hermione think it's wrong for Slytherins and Gryffindors to be set against each other. Harry could not have named, prior to DH, any Slytherin who deserved his respect. Now he reminds Al that if he wants to think Slytherins are no good, he'll be disrespecting his own name, and the parents who gave it to him. It's not House Unity, but it's Harry and Hermione and Ginny thinking that unity would be a good thing. Al doesn't believe it -- yet. But it's not because his parents haven't tried to set an example for him. Alla: > And I cant believe I am saying it, but as much as I hate Draco Malfoy, looking at it from the distance and not picking up books for about a year, I really do think that Tower was all for nothing and his character development which supposedly occurred in book 6 pretty much dissappeared in book seven. Pippin: It depends on what you think Draco was supposed to learn on the Tower. If you think he was supposed to learn that if he did the right thing he could become a hero for the good guys and save the day -- then no, he didn't learn that. But Dumbledore didn't promise him that, did he? What he told Draco was that if he was willing to do a good thing now, then others would help him and his family, despite knowing what he'd done in the past, and might do in the future. And that came to fruition in the Room of Requirement. Draco refused to be rescued until Goyle could be saved, too. Would he have had the strength to make that choice if Dumbledore had not worked so hard to convince Draco that his choices mattered? And would Harry have worked so hard to save Draco and Goyle if Dumbledore had not convinced him, by example, that Draco was worth saving? And if Draco had not been saved, Narcissa would not have helped Harry. Then what? Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 7 18:54:23 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 18:54:23 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192014 > Alla: > > Actually, no wait, I may have couple of things which I may not consider very consistent. I guess House Unity message she never wanted to convey. While I did not care for good Slytherins to appear (I mean I did not care either way whether they would appear or not), the epilogue was kind of dissapointing in that regard. Albus still does not care to be in Slytherin - nothing seems to change. > > > Alla: > > And I cant believe I am saying it, but as much as I hate Draco Malfoy, looking at it from the distance and not picking up books for about a year, I really do think that Tower was all for nothing and his character development which supposedly occurred in book 6 pretty much dissappeared in book seven. > > Pippin: > It depends on what you think Draco was supposed to learn on the Tower. If you think he was supposed to learn that if he did the right thing he could become a hero for the good guys and save the day -- then no, he didn't learn that. Alla: Well, no, I did not dream nor did I care about Draco learning to become a hero. I would have laughed my head off if I would have seen him saving the day. I did however thought that the message about him learning that he is not a killer was as subtle as hitting the reader over the head with the baseball bat and accordingly that he is not cut out for Voldemort. I expected that to go somewhere. To me, this went nowhere. Pippin: > But Dumbledore didn't promise him that, did he? What he told Draco was that if he was willing to do a good thing now, then others would help him and his family, despite knowing what he'd done in the past, and might do in the future. > > And that came to fruition in the Room of Requirement. Draco refused to be rescued until Goyle could be saved, too. Would he have had the strength to make that choice if Dumbledore had not worked so hard to convince Draco that his choices mattered? Alla: Actually yes, I think he would have made this choice even if the Tower never happened, to me dramatically the two accidents were not connected. I never doubted that he considered Crabb and Goyle his friends, or maybe I did over the years, but not now. I thought that he learned *something* on the Tower as to how to treat his enemies. And when push came to shove, he was being a typical Slytherin, he did not even have a strength to say that he did not recognize the Trio. One decisive action he did not manage. Pippin: > And would Harry have worked so hard to save Draco and Goyle if Dumbledore had not convinced him, by example, that Draco was worth saving? And if Draco had not been saved, Narcissa would not have helped Harry. Then what? Alla: Thats exactly my point - if Draco was not saved, Narcissa would not have helped Harry. Instead of character arc driving the plot, Draco was just another plot point used in order to get from point A to point B (or C or D), what happened to him was IMO pretty much forgotten. From daveforgan at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 7 16:44:48 2012 From: daveforgan at yahoo.co.uk (Dave) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 16:44:48 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- OWL System In-Reply-To: <1336398861.32662.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192015 > Bruce Mull wrote: > > One thing that JKR truly got wrong is the OWL system. > > There are seven required magical classes: Astronomy, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Herbology, History of Magic, Potions and Transfiguration. With the possible exception of History or Magic, each has a Theory and a Practical OWL. Thus, there are at least 13 OWLs here. > > In addition, beginning the third year, students take at least two classes from Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care of Magical Creatures, Divination, Muggle Studies and Numerology. Admitedly, Arithmancy and Numerology should be part of Divination, but they are listed as separate studies. These would each have both a Theory and Practical OWL, as well. Thus, at least 4 more OWLs. > > The point is, each student would have to sit at least 17 OWLs -- possibly more. [Not to mention any nonmagical classes which there would most certainly be, but which are never mentioned.] Therefore, how can the 12 OWLs of Percy be considered good? > Dave: Surely, although there are two exams/tests for Astronomy, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Herbology, [History of Magic], Potions and Transfiguration, there are only seven subjects and students have to pass both the Theory and Practical exams/tests to gain an OWL. So Percy would have had to have passed five of the optional subjects as well the seven compulsory ones to get a total of twelve OWLs. I wonder which ones he took and whether he had to use a time-turner to get to all his classes? Dave From bart at moosewise.com Tue May 8 03:59:03 2012 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 23:59:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <1336398861.32662.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> <1336398861.32662.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FA89A07.8040904@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192016 Bruce Mull wrote: > One thing that JKR truly got wrong is the OWL system. There are seven > required magical classes: Astronomy, Charms, Defense Against the Dark > Arts, Herbology, History of Magic, Potions and Transfiguration. With > the possible exception of History or Magic, each has a Theory and a > Practical OWL. Thus, there are at least 13 OWLs here. In addition, > beginning the third year, students take at least two classes from > Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care of Magical Creatures, Divination, > Muggle Studies and Numerology. Admitedly, Arithmancy and Numerology > should be part of Divination, but they are listed as separate studies. > These would each have both a Theory and Practical OWL, as well. Thus, > at least 4 more OWLs. The point is, each student would have to sit at > least 17 OWLs -- possibly more. [Not to mention any nonmagical classes > which there would most certainly be, but which are never mentioned.] > Therefore, how can the 12 OWLs of Percy be considered good? Also, have > you attempted to organize these classes into a schedule? It cannot be > done -- certainly not with the teachers listed -- but even if you add > more teachers, there are conflicts with the story line which cannot be > resolved with the single/double class system; unless, like the Room of > Requirement, they come and go at different times. I would have like to > have seen this system better thought out. Bart: First of all, we don't necessarily know all the courses that were taught. Secondly, nobody is expected to take all the classes; that was a major plot point of POA, so I'm surprised that you don't remember that. Also, based on Harry's and Ron's results, there are not separate OWL's in theory and practice; there is only one OWL for each subject. So 12 OWLs is pretty impressive. Bart From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue May 8 09:24:42 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 09:24:42 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <4FA89A07.8040904@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: Bruce Mull: > > One thing that JKR truly got wrong is the OWL system. There are seven > > required magical classes: Astronomy, Charms, Defense Against the Dark > > Arts, Herbology, History of Magic, Potions and Transfiguration. With > > the possible exception of History or Magic, each has a Theory and a > > Practical OWL. Thus, there are at least 13 OWLs here. In addition, > > beginning the third year, students take at least two classes from > > Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care of Magical Creatures, Divination, > > Muggle Studies and Numerology. Admitedly, Arithmancy and Numerology > > should be part of Divination, but they are listed as separate studies. > > These would each have both a Theory and Practical OWL, as well. Thus, > > at least 4 more OWLs. The point is, each student would have to sit at > > least 17 OWLs -- possibly more. [Not to mention any nonmagical classes > > which there would most certainly be, but which are never mentioned.] > > Therefore, how can the 12 OWLs of Percy be considered good? Also, have > > you attempted to organize these classes into a schedule? It cannot be > > done -- certainly not with the teachers listed -- but even if you add > > more teachers, there are conflicts with the story line which cannot be > > resolved with the single/double class system; unless, like the Room of > > Requirement, they come and go at different times. I would have like to > > have seen this system better thought out. Bart: > First of all, we don't necessarily know all the courses that were > taught. Secondly, nobody is expected to take all the classes; that was a > major plot point of POA, so I'm surprised that you don't remember that. > Also, based on Harry's and Ron's results, there are not separate OWL's > in theory and practice; there is only one OWL for each subject. So 12 > OWLs is pretty impressive. Geoff: I have said several times over the years that I accept the willing suspension of disbelief quite often when I enjoy a book and frequently let things which could irritate me pass me by. For example, I am a railway fan and often wince because someone gets it wrong - the wrong time period or the wrong location for instance, but if it does not affect the scheme of the story line, I try to put it to one side. I agree, there are times when the smooth flow of a story can be disrupted by badly researched data or plain sloppy writing. I know that Alla and I share a liking for "To Serve Them All My Days" by R.F.Delderfield which is about a teacher at a public school in the West Country from 1918 to about 1940 and I do grumble about this book because there are places where his timeline is completely haywire. However, there are times, as I said earlier, where the mistakes are only noticed by someone who has an interest in or is involved in that area. I am a retired Maths and Computing teacher, having taught at a senior school in South London for over thirty years. One of my jobs in latter years was being a member of the timetable team producing each new annual scheme in time for the Autumn term. As you say, there are always a number of conflicts which led to a lot of head scratching to get a final result so I can see the possible anomalies which you have pointed up. However, since the timetable has very little impact on the overall story and probably goes over the head of most readers, my feeling is to ask whether it is worth agonising overmuch about the problem? From cresorchid at gmail.com Tue May 8 11:25:11 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 06:25:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- OWL System In-Reply-To: References: <1336398861.32662.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192018 > Dave: > Surely, although there are two exams/tests for Astronomy, Charms, Defense > Against the Dark Arts, Herbology, [History of Magic], Potions and > Transfiguration, there are only seven subjects and students have to pass > both the Theory and Practical exams/tests to gain an OWL. > > So Percy would have had to have passed five of the optional subjects as > well the seven compulsory ones to get a total of twelve OWLs. I wonder > which ones he took and whether he had to use a time-turner to get to all > his classes? > > > > Personally, I always thought it was odd that there were so few teachers. I mean, one teacher per subject for ALL AGES??? I sure wouldn't want to be under that kind of pressure. And they give out lots of homework, when can they actually grade it? Crescent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue May 8 19:06:40 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 19:06:40 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- OWL System In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandra Lynn wrote: Dave: > > Surely, although there are two exams/tests for Astronomy, Charms, Defense > > Against the Dark Arts, Herbology, [History of Magic], Potions and > > Transfiguration, there are only seven subjects and students have to pass > > both the Theory and Practical exams/tests to gain an OWL. > > > > So Percy would have had to have passed five of the optional subjects as > > well the seven compulsory ones to get a total of twelve OWLs. I wonder > > which ones he took and whether he had to use a time-turner to get to all > > his classes? Crescent: > Personally, I always thought it was odd that there were so few teachers. I > mean, one teacher per subject for ALL AGES??? I sure wouldn't want to be > under that kind of pressure. And they give out lots of homework, when can > they actually grade it? Geoff: Not really. It depends on the subject. and the size of the school. I introduced Computing subjects to the school in South London where I taught and I was the only specialist member of staff teaching IT to every class and then option groups in Years 10 and 11 to GCSE level (equivalent to OWLs). From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue May 8 19:29:35 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 19:29:35 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Bart: > > There are a number of things that I really wish that JKR had included in > > the Harry Potter novels which, for whatever reason, she didn't. I'll > > mention a couple, and, more importantly, why I think that it was a mistake. > > Alla: > Fun topic. I dont really have any which I thought was a mistake - there were definitely things which I disliked or wanted to go other way, but thats just me wishing for fulfilment of certain wishes, anything JKR did, I mean major plot turnss anyway, made sense for me if I think about it in a grand scheme of things in her story. Again, not that I *liked* everything, quite the contrary, but I think she was pretty consistent in executing her story and her characters. > And I cant believe I am saying it, but as much as I hate Draco Malfoy, looking at it from the distance and not picking up books for about a year, I really do think that Tower was all for nothing and his character development which supposedly occurred in book 6 pretty much dissappeared in book seven. Geoff: Alla, I do believe that, unusually, we disagree. I seem to recall that you are something of a Snape supporter whereas I have never worked up a sweat about him either pro or con. He is a character about whom I am ambivalent; I suppose honestly that deep down I just don't like him as a person whether he was on the good side or not. Where I think we disagree is that I have always had a sneaking sympathy for Draco. An only child with very few, if any, real friends and effectively subjected to brainwashing by his father and family. I mean, how would you come out of several years of "training" by Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange? What I had always hoped for was some measure of rapprochement between him and Harry. OK, both of them had been pretty nasty to each other, culminating in Draco treading on Harry's face and the latter using a totally unknown spell clearly marked "for enemies" on him. To counter that, Harry was saved first by Draco's refusal to positively identify him at Malfoy Manor and then by Narcissa's deception towards Voldemort in the Forest while, in turn, Draco was saved from the Fiendfyre by Harry in the Room of Requirement. I suppose the only hint for me was when, in that wretched epilogue, Draco nods at Harry - interestingly not vice versa. Perhaps something lies behind that. It has certainly created a lot of speculation in fanfic circles. I don't expect them to be singing "Old Lang Syne" on New Year's Eve with their arms around each other's shoulders in an English pub - but at least an acknowledgement of each other's existence without fisticuffs would be encouraging. :-) From bpmull at yahoo.com Tue May 8 13:39:16 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 06:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: <4FA89A07.8040904@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <1336484356.86711.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192021 > Geoff: > I have said several times over the years that I accept the willing suspension of disbelief quite often when I enjoy a book and > frequently let things which could irritate me pass me by. For example, I am a railway fan and often wince because someone gets it wrong - the wrong time period or the wrong location for instance, but if it does not affect the scheme of the story line, I try to put > it to one side. > > However, there are times, as I said earlier, where the mistakes are only noticed by someone who has an interest in or is involved in that area. I am a retired Maths and Computing teacher, having taught at a > senior school in South London for over thirty years. One of my jobs in latter years was being a member of the timetable team producing each new annual scheme in time for the Autumn term. As you say, there > are always a number of conflicts which led to a lot of head scratching to get a final result so I can see the possible anomalies > which you have pointed up. However, since the timetable has very little impact on the overall story and probably goes over the head of most readers, my feeling is to ask whether it is worth agonising > overmuch about the problem? Bruce: You are completely right. I am probably nit picking on a point that is not central to the theme of the series. And I love reading, and re-reading them all. I happen to be a graph theorist and now dean of the school of information technology for the American University at Madaba, Jordan. So scheduling is part of the job and my background makes it easier for me than for my colleagues. It is just quite noticeable about the scheduling problem. There was also the "Tuesday morning" in Book one, when Halloween was on a Saturday that year and Bon Fire day would NOT have been next week as on the news, as that is November 5th. One of the better fanfics tackled the former problem saying the Hagrid took care of baby Harry for a few days before he was brought to the Dursleys while Dumbledore spread the rumors of the Boy-Who-Lived. But there tain't much you can do about the news except to say that all the owls had the newspeople discombobulated. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From bart at moosewise.com Tue May 8 20:20:09 2012 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 16:20:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA97FF9.80606@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192022 Geoff > One of my jobs in latter years was being a member > of the timetable team producing each new annual scheme in time for the > Autumn term. As you say, there are always a number of conflicts which led to > a lot of head scratching to get a final result so I can see the possible anomalies > which you have pointed up. However, since the timetable has very little impact > on the overall story and probably goes over the head of most readers, my > feeling is to ask whether it is worth agonising overmuch about the problem? Bart: As I have pointed out numerous times, the fact that JKR plants very subtle clues within the stories makes her vulnerable to more scrutiny than most writers. I do recall discussions as to what the work week for the professors is, how many students there are at Hogwarts, what the WW (at least in Britain) population is, and how do we reconcile the small number the math shows us with the level of civilization shown in the WW. I've pretty much summed it up, numerous times as, "There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't." - JKR Bart From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue May 8 20:48:07 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 20:48:07 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <4FA97FF9.80606@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: Geoff > > One of my jobs in latter years was being a member > > of the timetable team producing each new annual scheme in time for the > > Autumn term. As you say, there are always a number of conflicts which led to > > a lot of head scratching to get a final result so I can see the possible anomalies > > which you have pointed up. However, since the timetable has very little impact > > on the overall story and probably goes over the head of most readers, my > > feeling is to ask whether it is worth agonising overmuch about the problem? Bart: > As I have pointed out numerous times, the fact that JKR plants very > subtle clues within the stories makes her vulnerable to more scrutiny > than most writers. I do recall discussions as to what the work week for > the professors is, how many students there are at Hogwarts, what the WW > (at least in Britain) population is, and how do we reconcile the small > number the math shows us with the level of civilization shown in the WW. > I've pretty much summed it up, numerous times as, > > "There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, > and those who can't." - JKR Geoff: True but my point was *not* that we don't discuss this but is it worth the amount of bandwidth that is sometimes utilised over what is a rather arcane bit of study left to people like Bruce and myself who, as members of the teaching fraternity are probably given to nitpicking? Your response didn't really address my last question, which underlines what I have just said. For instance, it is a well-documented fact that JRRT was a bit obsessive with the LOTR books and who would. as an example, sometimes spend ages trying to reconcile things like what phase of the moon would be visible at a particular point in the story. OK, it made everything fit together for him, but I wouldn't think to compare such data as I was too carried along with the action. We all know JKR's famous quote (I hope) but in terms of the present thread, I think it's a bit of a non-sequitur. :-| From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 9 01:24:31 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 01:24:31 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192024 .> Alla: > > Fun topic. I dont really have any which I thought was a mistake - there were definitely things which I disliked or wanted to go other way, but thats just me wishing for fulfilment of certain wishes, anything JKR did, I mean major plot turnss anyway, made sense for me if I think about it in a grand scheme of things in her story. Again, not that I *liked* everything, quite the contrary, but I think she was pretty consistent in executing her story and her characters. > > > And I cant believe I am saying it, but as much as I hate Draco Malfoy, looking at it from the distance and not picking up books for about a year, I really do think that Tower was all for nothing and his character development which supposedly occurred in book 6 pretty much dissappeared in book seven. > > Geoff: > Alla, I do believe that, unusually, we disagree. I seem to recall that you are > something of a Snape supporter whereas I have never worked up a sweat > about him either pro or con. He is a character about whom I am ambivalent; > I suppose honestly that deep down I just don't like him as a person whether > he was on the good side or not. Alla: LOL. Geoff, I consider you one of the dearest Internet friends which I made on this list, but I have to ask now - have we met? No, seriously since when did I become a Snape supporter :)? The only times when I kind of support Snape (if you must call it a support) is when I have to choose whom I dislike more Snape or Dumbledore. Sadly, after book seven I have to grudgingly admit that I grew to dislike Dumbledore more than Snape in the grand scheme of things. But I will always find him a horrible person, somebody who hold a grudge against innocent kid for years and no amount of fighting against Voldemort would erase that in my eyes. Just wanted to be clear on that :) Geoff: >Where I think we disagree is that I have always had a sneaking sympathy > for Draco. An only child with very few, if any, real friends and effectively > subjected to brainwashing by his father and family. I mean, how would > you come out of several years of "training" by Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix > Lestrange? > > What I had always hoped for was some measure of rapprochement between > him and Harry. OK, both of them had been pretty nasty to each other, > culminating in Draco treading on Harry's face and the latter using a totally > unknown spell clearly marked "for enemies" on him. To counter that, Harry > was saved first by Draco's refusal to positively identify him at Malfoy Manor > and then by Narcissa's deception towards Voldemort in the Forest while, in > turn, Draco was saved from the Fiendfyre by Harry in the Room of > Requirement. > > I suppose the only hint for me was when, in that wretched epilogue, Draco > nods at Harry - interestingly not vice versa. Perhaps something lies behind > that. It has certainly created a lot of speculation in fanfic circles. I don't > expect them to be singing "Old Lang Syne" on New Year's Eve with their > arms around each other's shoulders in an English pub - but at least an > acknowledgement of each other's existence without fisticuffs would be > encouraging. > :-) > Alla: Oh I know, but I am actually not sure where we disagree here either. I mean, yes sure, I remember that you sympathized with Draco and I never did, but my point in this thread was kind of agree with you actually. This is a wish fulfillment thread, is it not? So I thought that what was starting on the Tower could have gone further and develop "he is not a killer" suggestion more. It seems to me that you wanted more character development for Draco as well, no? From puduhepa98 at aol.com Wed May 9 03:07:28 2012 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 03:07:28 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- OWL System In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dave" wrote: > > > Bruce Mull wrote: > > > > One thing that JKR truly got wrong is the OWL system. > > > > There are seven required magical classes: Astronomy, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Herbology, History of Magic, Potions and Transfiguration. With the possible exception of History or Magic, each has a Theory and a Practical OWL. Thus, there are at least 13 OWLs here. > > > > In addition, beginning the third year, students take at least two classes from Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care of Magical Creatures, Divination, Muggle Studies and Numerology. Admitedly, Arithmancy and Numerology should be part of Divination, but they are listed as separate studies. These would each have both a Theory and Practical OWL, as well. Thus, at least 4 more OWLs. > > > > The point is, each student would have to sit at least 17 OWLs -- possibly more. [Not to mention any nonmagical classes which there would most certainly be, but which are never mentioned.] Therefore, how can the 12 OWLs of Percy be considered good? > > Nikkalmati I don't recall Numerology. When was that? Nikkalmati > > Dave: > Surely, although there are two exams/tests for Astronomy, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Herbology, [History of Magic], Potions and Transfiguration, there are only seven subjects and students have to pass both the Theory and Practical exams/tests to gain an OWL. > > So Percy would have had to have passed five of the optional subjects as well the seven compulsory ones to get a total of twelve OWLs. I wonder which ones he took and whether he had to use a time-turner to get to all his classes? > > > Nikkalmati I too wish the classes had been a bit clearer. In fact it is not clear at all. I am American so I think of the classes as 6th through 12th grades, but 6th graders here would be 12 years old, not 11. I guess they take OWLs at the end of 10th grade? What are the required classes? Are they the same every year - a core curriculum? Do we know all the electives? Do they take any other regular subjects? It would seem not. How many times a week does each class meet? Example: is Potions a double period three time a week like a high school science class? Is History of Magic just once a week or every day? I guess if I went over every book carefully I would get some answers but it would take a lot of work. As for the teachers, it is not just that they teach every class in their subject. The range of ages they have to teach is mind boggling. No one can teach both 11 year olds and 17 year olds effectively. My mother taught high school English, that is 9th through 12th grades, for many years. I think she taught 5 classses a day, but that involved fewer preparations than 5 because some classes were duplicates. She graded papers on the weekends. It was a lot of work and there were other teachers. If teacher A at Hogwarts teaches all the DOD classes and the class meets 3 times a week, (even if houses are doubled up the years are not) he or she teaches two groups of each year (14 classes times three = 42 classes a week). That's 21 preparations. Seems impossible. Of course 6th and 7th years do not take all the classes. If you drop Potions, do you have an extra period or do you take an elective? In grade school we had one teacher all day for two grades in one room. Seemed to work but I'm sure it would be considered substandard and disadvantaged today. No library, no lunch room, no gym (but we did have recess). Nikkalmati From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 9 06:13:12 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 23:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1336543992.82822.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192026 > Alla: > The only times when I kind of support Snape (if you must call it a support) is when I have to choose whom I dislike more Snape or Dumbledore. Sadly, after book seven I have to grudgingly admit that I grew to dislike Dumbledore more than Snape in the grand scheme of things. > Geoff: > I suppose the only hint for me was when, in that wretched epilogue, Draco nods at Harry - interestingly not vice versa. Perhaps > something lies behind that. Bruce: You need to remember that Dumbledore didn't always tell the truth. He would say whatever was necessary to convince the person to take the actions they did. Therefore, Snape's memories -- and anyone's memories about interacting with Dumbledore -- are not necessarily accurate as they reflect only what was said and how the person feels about that. I realize why he needed to do that, he was trying to save the Wizarding World and the tool he had to use was an inexperienced boy, but it does make me more critical about him sometimes. Dumbledore was working on several schemes at once -- not all of which happened as he planned -- but he was trying to make sure that Voldemort was weakened enough to be able to be taken out, even if it meant sacrificing Harry to do it. I would have liked to see a longer epilogue, even one like you see at the end of some psuedo-documentaries, saying what each character is doing and what they "learned" from this experience. The train scene is nice and homey, but it shows that much of the Wizarding World hasn't changed much. I would have thought that Harry would have had more of an impact -- not to mention Hermione, whose thoughts were aimed toward truly great changes and who was always outspoken. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 9 06:14:17 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 23:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- OWL System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1336544057.72661.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192027 > Nikkalmati: > I don't recall Numerology. When was that? You're right. I read too many fanfics. It was in the Psychic Serpent trilogy. Sorry. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed May 9 13:45:36 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 13:45:36 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <1336543992.82822.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192028 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bruce Mull wrote: Bruce: > I would have liked to see a longer epilogue, even one like you see at the end of some > psuedo-documentaries, saying what each character is doing and what they "learned" from > this experience. The train scene is nice and homey, but it shows that much of the Wizarding > World hasn't changed much. I would have thought that Harry would have had more of an > impact -- not to mention Hermione, whose thoughts were aimed toward truly great > changes and who was always outspoken. Geoff: Frankly, as several of us said nearly five years ago, we thought the epilogue was a waste of space. Actually, the picture given of Harry seemed quite good. A lot of fanfiction often assumes that Harry intensely disliked the limelight and wanted nothing more than a quiet life with just the family which I think is borne out by his reactions in the books. My only niggle about that is that I have never liked Ginny as a character... From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 10 16:19:49 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 16:19:49 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192029 > Alla: > > Well, no, I did not dream nor did I care about Draco learning to become a hero. I would have laughed my head off if I would have seen him saving the day. I did however thought that the message about him learning that he is not a killer was as subtle as hitting the reader over the head with the baseball bat and accordingly that he is not cut out for Voldemort. I expected that to go somewhere. To me, this went nowhere. > > > Pippin: > > But Dumbledore didn't promise him that, did he? What he told Draco was that if he was willing to do a good thing now, then others would help him and his family, despite knowing what he'd done in the past, and might do in the future. > > > > And that came to fruition in the Room of Requirement. Draco refused to be rescued until Goyle could be saved, too. Would he have had the strength to make that choice if Dumbledore had not worked so hard to convince Draco that his choices mattered? > > Alla: > > Actually yes, I think he would have made this choice even if the Tower never happened, to me dramatically the two accidents were not connected. I never doubted that he considered Crabb and Goyle his friends, or maybe I did over the years, but not now. > > I thought that he learned *something* on the Tower as to how to treat his enemies. And when push came to shove, he was being a typical Slytherin, he did not even have a strength to say that he did not recognize the Trio. One decisive action he did not manage. Pippin: It wasn't a viable option. What was he supposed to do, pinch his fingers together, assume a mystic expression and say, "These aren't the kids you're looking for?" Ron and Hermione aren't in disguise. Draco has to know who they are. So would anyone else who's even moderately familiar with the school. Draco knew Ron for a Weasley the first moment they met, all those years ago. But he doesn't have to say so, and he doesn't. He says it could be them, which doesn't tell Bella and Lucius anything they don't know already. Say it can't be them at all, OTOH, and the next step is clear -- someone will get Hogwarts on the fire to find out who they are if they're not Potter, Granger and Weasley. No good. > > Pippin: > > And would Harry have worked so hard to save Draco and Goyle if Dumbledore had not convinced him, by example, that Draco was worth saving? And if Draco had not been saved, Narcissa would not have helped Harry. Then what? > > Alla: > > Thats exactly my point - if Draco was not saved, Narcissa would not have helped Harry. Instead of character arc driving the plot, Draco was just another plot point used in order to get from point A to point B (or C or D), what happened to him was IMO pretty much forgotten. Pippin: I suppose you could see Draco as simply rudderless, buffeted this way and that by the plot as if he were a wizarding Rosencrantz or Guildenstern. But it's hard to see how a rudderless Draco winds up in the Room of Requirement trying to capture Harry. And yet, if Draco has come to believe that malice is not worth killing for, why is he there at all? Yet JKR makes it clear that this is Draco's choice, so it must be important. It's not a typical Slytherin action -- the Slytherins have gone. It's not a typical DE action either. It's clear that whatever Draco is after, he's not trying to win glory from Voldemort. JKR has hit us over the head with that. Not only with Draco refusing to identify Harry but with his obvious revulsion at the death of Charity Burbage, his reluctance to engage in torture, Bella's contemptuous aside that she doesn't think Draco will be up to killing Scabious, and so on. But if Draco doesn't want his classmates slaughtered, what's the one thing he can do? He can deliver Harry to Voldemort before Voldemort breaks into the school and kills everyone inside it, and Harry too, of course. It's still a selfish action, in that his classmates might prefer to die defending Harry. It's more about not having to watch people die than about wanting to save them. But it's not the action of a person who's trying to be evil, IMO. And it's not about only wanting to save his Slytherin friends, because they've gone. Draco has come a very long way, IMO, from the boy who invaded Harry's compartment at the end of GoF, and gloated about how Ron and Hermione would die with all the other Muggle-lovers and mudbloods. Now about unity... Of course the hat prefers unity to tolerance. Who wouldn't? Unity feels great, tolerance feels like work. And being tolerated isn't much fun either. But unity, as Dumbledore said, can only come when hearts are open and aims are identical. Oh, a semblance of unity can be achieved by excluding some people and enforcing conformity on the rest. But only a semblance of friendship and trust will result. It didn't work any better for the Marauders than it did for the Death Eaters. So I wouldn't say that JKR forgot about unity, she just showed us that true unity will be a lot harder to achieve than we thought. Meanwhile, though tolerance is hard work, a tolerant society is a lot more pleasant to live in, not to mention safer. Draco on the platform hasn't exactly become open-hearted or made his aims identical with the Trio's. We can't even be sure that the Trio themselves are as open-hearted or their aims as lofty as we might like. Plenty of people have wished that JKR would give us some assurance about that. But that's wish-fulfillment, not reality. I'd have liked to see Harry open his heart to a living Slytherin. Instead JKR asks us to take it on faith, (or rather Harry asks Albus to take it on faith) that he would. That is much harder to believe, but that's the point about having faith in people. It's not faith if they've proved themselves. I think we can say Draco grew to be a far better person than Lucius ever was. And who knows what Scorpius might be, if people will have the courtesy not to assume he can't be better than his father was? Pippin From lynde4 at gmail.com Thu May 10 17:17:36 2012 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 10:17:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- OWL System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192030 > Crescent: > > > Personally, I always thought it was odd that there were so few teachers. > I > > mean, one teacher per subject for ALL AGES??? I sure wouldn't want to be > > under that kind of pressure. And they give out lots of homework, when can > > they actually grade it? > > Geoff: > Not really. It depends on the subject. and the size of the school. I > introduced > Computing subjects to the school in South London where I taught and I was > the only specialist member of staff teaching IT to every class and then > option > groups in Years 10 and 11 to GCSE level (equivalent to OWLs). > Lynda: And in the town I live in, the music classes, until middle school for chorus and band and through middle school for string instruments, are taught by teachers who drive around to the different PS in our area, each of them taking 5-6 schools plus having one schoolroom and clas that is their home base, usually the middle school classroom. And handling the after school groups as necessary, anywhere from 3 to 5 days a week from 3:30 to 6:00 or so in the evenings. As I'm friends with most of the music teachers in town, I happen to know they're all up past midnight 7 days a week doing prep work and grading papers. From lynde4 at gmail.com Thu May 10 17:44:47 2012 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 10:44:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192031 Lynda: I've gone and deleted the entire message from before as it was getting very lengthy. Things I would have liked to see in the HP books that were not included: Firstly, to Alla, I get your point with House Unity, but I don't think in a system like the one that she put in place that is much of a possibility. I do think that the token ackinowledgments by Harry and Draco in the epilogue are a hint that things are changing a little. I know how you feel about Dumbledore as well and all I can say is that I knew what he was from the beginning of the series. The clues are there from the outset, the spiriting Harry away, the letter to the Dursleys, the lack of communication with Harry before he gets the acceptance letter to Hogwarts, all told me that Dumbledore was a manipulator, as well as the fact that Rowling set Harry up with a family in which he was taught not to ask questions, but rather to keep quiet, which taught him to sneak around and to keep secrets himself. Now, on to what I would have liked to see in the books, and this is totally trivial and inconsequential, but it would have been, (I think) fun. Once, just once, I would have loved to see a couple of Muggles wander into the magical world and the magical folk have to deal with them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cresorchid at gmail.com Thu May 10 19:30:26 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 14:30:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192032 > Pippin: >I suppose you could see Draco as simply rudderless, buffeted this way and that by the plot as if he were a wizarding Rosencrantz or Guildenstern. But it's hard to see how a rudderless Draco winds up in the Room of Requirement trying to capture Harry. And yet, if Draco has come to believe that malice is not worth killing for, why is he there at all? Yet JKR makes it clear > that this is Draco's choice, so it must be important. Crescent: Actually, I was always under the impression that Draco's entering the room of requirement was NOT necessarily his choice. He had Crabbe and Goyle who were as much his guards by that time as his lackeys. If he hadn't gone to the room of requirement willingly, I assumed they would have turned him over to the Carrows, Snape, Voldemort?someone who would (presumably) make Draco very sorry. Crescent From zucht413 at yahoo.com Fri May 11 00:56:55 2012 From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 17:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1336697815.99391.YahooMailClassic@web112001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192033 Crescent: Actually, I was always under the impression that Draco's entering the room of requirement was NOT necessarily his choice. He had Crabbe and Goyle who were as much his guards by that time as his lackeys. If he hadn't gone to the room of requirement willingly, I assumed they would have turned him over to the Carrows, Snape, Voldemort someone who would (presumably) make Draco very sorry. zucht: Where in Sam Hill do you get that the butt boys are Draco's guards? Draco wanted to be exactly like his Daddy, until Harry saved him from frying in the RoR. "I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore From cresorchid at gmail.com Fri May 11 01:32:51 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:32:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: <1336697815.99391.YahooMailClassic@web112001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192034 >> Crescent: >> Actually, I was always under the impression that Draco's entering the room >> of requirement was NOT necessarily his choice. He had Crabbe and Goyle who >> were as much his guards by that time as his lackeys. If he hadn't gone to >> the room of requirement willingly, I assumed they would have turned him >> over to the Carrows, Snape, Voldemort someone who would (presumably) make >> Draco very sorry. >> >> zucht: >> Where in Sam Hill do you get that the butt boys are Draco's guards? Draco >> wanted to be exactly like his Daddy, until Harry saved him from frying in >> the RoR. >> >> "I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore >> >> >> > > Let me add to this that I don't think Draco loved muggles at this point or had made great changes. He just didn't want to be a part of any of it. He didn't have the stomach for it and he knew it. From what I read and saw in the movies, I would guess that he would have been happy to hide out until everything was all over. I could be completely wrong, but that was what I perceived. Crescent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cresorchid at gmail.com Fri May 11 01:31:46 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:31:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <1336697815.99391.YahooMailClassic@web112001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1336697815.99391.YahooMailClassic@web112001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192035 .> Crescent: > Actually, I was always under the impression that Draco's entering the room > of requirement was NOT necessarily his choice. He had Crabbe and Goyle who > were as much his guards by that time as his lackeys. If he hadn't gone to > the room of requirement willingly, I assumed they would have turned him > over to the Carrows, Snape, Voldemort someone who would (presumably) make > Draco very sorry. > > zucht: > Where in Sam Hill do you get that the butt boys are Draco's guards? Draco > wanted to be exactly like his Daddy, until Harry saved him from frying in > the RoR. > > "I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore > > > I got the definite impression that it was after living with Voldemort at Malfoy manor that scared the daylights out of Draco. He had already been put in the position of needing to kill someone (Dumbledore) and being unable to do it even at the cost of his family and possibly his own life. And Daddy didn't appear to happy with the situation by the time of the last battle either. They were all just hanging on by a thread to their lives. Crescent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Fri May 11 06:43:05 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 06:43:05 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <1336697815.99391.YahooMailClassic@web112001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Smith wrote: Crescent: > Actually, I was always under the impression that Draco's entering the room > of requirement was NOT necessarily his choice. He had Crabbe and Goyle who > were as much his guards by that time as his lackeys. If he hadn't gone to > the room of requirement willingly, I assumed they would have turned him > over to the Carrows, Snape, Voldemort someone who would (presumably) make > Draco very sorry. zucht: > Where in Sam Hill do you get that the butt boys are Draco's guards? Draco wanted to be exactly like his Daddy, until Harry saved him from frying in the RoR. Wind" by Louis L'Amore Geoff: Draco had effectively been brainwashed to want to be like his father: only child, no "real" friends, Death Eaters as role models. I believe that the change began when he became frightened that he could not complete the task Voldemort gave him in HBP and the threat to him and his family became a real issue. Finally, when he was faced with the task of actually killing Dumbeldore on the Tower which he had been planning all year, the reality created a deep epiphany shown in many ways in DH: his horror of the killing of Charity Burbage and his failure to identify Harry as examples, all these events pre-dating the fire rescue. From andy at mugglesguide.com Fri May 11 13:31:00 2012 From: andy at mugglesguide.com (Andy Mills) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:31:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> References: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 192037 Hello Bart, > There are a number of things that I really wish that JKR had included in > the Harry Potter novels which, for whatever reason, she didn't. I'll > mention a couple, and, more importantly, why I think that it was a mistake. > > For example, the lack of "Good Slytherins", at least among the students. > The Sorting Hat kept talking about unity between the houses, but the > Slytherin students were, at best, neutral, and, at worst, on the side of > Morty. Would it have been too much to have a Slytherin on the side of > Morty's opponents, possibly explaining about his joining the other > Slytherins in tormenting Harry: "That was just a game. This is for > real." As it is, JKR sends mixed messages. Andy: This is kind of a difficult one. There's probably no notably "good" Slytherin because that is the house where that sort of person is sorted into. If any person had any character trait that made them "good", or they did not support Voldy in some way, then chances are they would have been sorted into one of the other houses. But remember that Snape was Slytherin and he was incredibly brave, ultimately switching sides and fighting for the good guys. Draco's mum lied to Voldemort, saying he was dead when he wasn't, to protect Harry. These examples, while potentially selfish, are examples of "good" deeds by Slytherins. It works both ways - not every one in other houses are necessarily "good" either. Peter Pettigrew was Gryffindor, a house known for bravery. But he was, in ways, a coward who served the Dark Lord and sent his best friend and family to their death. Another thing to remember is that as people grow, especially at the ages students are at Hogwarts, they change. Just because they are sorted into a house at age 11 doesn't mean they hold the same beliefs and/or feelings when they leave. If they could be re-sorted every year, chances are you will see some students being sorted into different houses. > I also would have liked to have seen Unforgivable Curses be more than > the political slogan it seems to be. It has been discussed here that > there might be something more to the Unforgivable Curses than the name > (after all, a number of people use them with no consequence, notably > Harry himself). To give a reasonable example, they might have been > considered Unforgivable (with a capital "U") not because of what it does > to others, but what it does to the caster. The level of desire required > to want to cause someone pain, control them, or cause them to die, > unless for pure motives with a voluntary subject, should have been shown > to damage the psyche of the caster; not as much as creating a horcrux, > perhaps, but creating a corruption which, once present, cannot be > removed. It made Harry a bit too much of a Christlike figure to not have > him suffer the consequences of what he had to do in order to defeat > Morty; the consequences were reserved for the more disposable > characters. Even if it was just the regret that often hits people who > peak too early, the ending was a bit too happy for my own taste. Andy: I don't see them as political slogan(s) As far as I can remember, Harry just tried to use an unforgivable curse once, against Bellatrix in the ministry after she had killed Sirius. But the curse was ineffective and Bellatrix mocked him, saying that he had to *mean* it. Harry was angry as hell, but he is not a cold hearted killer. Even against Bellatrix. Perhaps this is the difference, why some people can kind of "get away" with using unforgivable curses - you have to really *mean* to kill someone, you have to really *want* to torture them. Perhaps it is the real feeling behind it that makes them unforgivable. TTFN -- Andy Mills From bart at moosewise.com Fri May 11 20:44:25 2012 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:44:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> References: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> Message-ID: <4FAD7A29.6050401@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192038 On 5/11/2012 9:31 AM, Andy Mills wrote: > As far as I can remember, Harry just tried to use an unforgivable > curse once, against Bellatrix in the ministry after she had killed Sirius. Bart: He used them several times in Book 7. Bart From shaun.hately at bigpond.com Sat May 12 13:49:44 2012 From: shaun.hately at bigpond.com (Shaun) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 13:49:44 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch.11: Aboard the Hogwarts Express Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192039 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered off-list (to email inboxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space) SUMMARY: It is the end of the holidays for Harry and his friends, the day they return to Hogwarts for a new year. The weather reflects the gloomy outlook that going back to school always seems to bring (even if your school is Hogwarts). Mr Weasley receives an urgent call from Amos Diggory (whose head, to Harry's surprise is sitting in the fire) summoning him to help get Mad-Eye Moody out of trouble - who has apparently over-reacted to a stray cat in his yard and triggered a minor crisis by jinxing Muggles including some 'please-men' (though nothing is likely to be proven). It needs to be dealt with quickly, because Mad-Eye is due to start a new job today. Harry finds out from the Weasleys that Mad-Eye Moody was an Auror - a Dark-wizard catcher - a very, successful one, who was responsible for imprisoning many of the people now in Azkaban. Unsurprisingly he has enemies - and he is paranoid. Percy claims to be very busy at the Ministry. He says his boss, Mr Crouch, is really starting to rely on him. George expresses scepticism. Mrs Weasley, Bill and Charlie, take those returning to Hogwarts to King's Cross Station by Muggle taxi, to the annoyance of the Muggle taxi drivers. Charlie and Bill drop deliberate hints that something exciting and special may be going to happen at Hogwarts this years. So does Mrs Weasley. This reminds Harry, Ron, and Hermione, that Ludo Bagman had also tried to tell them something was going to happen, when they met him at the World Cup. They overhear Draco Malfoy talking to his friends about the fact his father had considered sending him to another Wizarding School called Durmstrang - which actually teaches the Dark Arts. Hermione, naturally, has heard of the school and says it has a bad reputation. She remarks on the rivalry between Wizarding schools like Hogwarts, Durmstrang, and Beauxbatons - and points out that Wizarding schools are typically hidden by powerful magic. But she thinks Durmstrang is probably somewhere in the far north. They meet some of their friends on the train, but while they are talking to Neville, Draco and his cronies turn up looking for trouble. Draco teases Ron about his dress robes - teasing him about his family's lack of money. It becomes clear that Draco knows a lot more about whatever special event is planned for Hogwarts this year. They arrive at Hogsmeade, and set off in the carriages for the school. Questions: 1. Mr Weasley is asked to - and apparently is willing to - use his position at the Ministry of Magic to help Mad-Eye Moody avoid punishment for attacking Muggles. What does it say about the Wizarding World that even the 'good guys' are apparently willing to ignore their laws when they are inconvenient? 2. The Wizarding World is concerned about secrecy - to the extent that it is a significant issue to use magic in front of Muggles. But apparently, there is far less concern about potential giveaways like carrying owls through London in Muggle taxis, accidental setting off of magical fireworks, and the mere fact that hundreds, if not thousands of Wizarding children and their families all descend on one Muggle train station en masse at once. If you were in charge of a Ministry department, trying to ensure the Wizarding World remained secret, would you make any changes to how things operate? 3. Adults seem to enjoy keeping secrets from Harry. This might be understandable in cases where they are hoping it will help keep him safe (whether they are right or not) but here, Mrs Weasley, Bill, and Charlie all seem to take pleasure in teasing him (along with Ron and Hermione) by dropping hints that something is going to happen. What do you think of the fact that so much is concealed from Harry, even when there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it? 4. Once again, we are reminded of the fact that the Weasley's are not well off. But Mr Weasley has what seems to be a fairly high level position at the Ministry, and while they do have a large family, their older children (Bill, Charlie, and possibly, Percy) are presumably financially independent by now - what do you think they spend their money on when it actually leaves them short of what is needed to pay for things their children need for school? From bart at moosewise.com Sat May 12 18:16:47 2012 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 14:16:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch.11: Aboard the Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAEA90F.2020705@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192040 Shaun: 1. Mr Weasley is asked to - and apparently is willing to - use his position at the Ministry of Magic to help Mad-Eye Moody avoid punishment for attacking Muggles. What does it say about the Wizarding World that even the 'good guys' are apparently willing to ignore their laws when they are inconvenient? Bart: Standard operating procedure for any bureaucracy. It does set the stage of the Ministry in Denial in the next book, however. Also note, that bureaucracies tend to operate under relatively inflexible and often onerous, if not impossible, rules. The only way anything can get done is usually through the exchange of favors in violation of the rules. Also, it betrays more about the attitude towards Muggles, which is not much of one. It appears that, as long as no memorable harm is done, wizards will be wizards. Fine them, and send them on their way. Shaun: > 2. The Wizarding World is concerned about secrecy - to the extent that it is a significant issue to use magic in front of Muggles. But apparently, there is far less concern about potential giveaways like carrying owls through London in Muggle taxis, accidental setting off of magical fireworks, and the mere fact that hundreds, if not thousands of Wizarding children and their families all descend on one Muggle train station en masse at once. If you were in charge of a Ministry department, trying to ensure the Wizarding World remained secret, would you make any changes to how things operate? Bart: One problem with bureaucracies is that people who are actually dedicated to doing their job right find themselves at the bottom of the heap. The primary purpose of a bureaucracy is to keep the bureaucracy going, and only actually do their jobs if that helps out the primary purpose. Therefore, what one would have to do to become in charge of a Ministry department tends to be antithetical towards actually wanting to make a change. Therefore, if I were in charge of a Ministry department, I would not be the sort of person who would make any serious changes. Shaun: > 3. Adults seem to enjoy keeping secrets from Harry. This might be understandable in cases where they are hoping it will help keep him safe (whether they are right or not) but here, Mrs Weasley, Bill, and Charlie all seem to take pleasure in teasing him (along with Ron and Hermione) by dropping hints that something is going to happen. What do you think of the fact that so much is concealed from Harry, even when there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it? Bart: In this case, it appears that the reason for the secrecy is because it's supposed to be a surprise. The idea is to keep the Daily Prophet and radio stations from getting wind of it before the actual event happens. So those involved needed to be sworn to secrecy. The Malfoys, considering themselves to be superior to the Ministry, of course would consider such considerations to be beneath them. Shaun: > 4. Once again, we are reminded of the fact that the Weasley's are not well off. But Mr Weasley has what seems to be a fairly high level position at the Ministry, and while they do have a large family, their older children (Bill, Charlie, and possibly, Percy) are presumably financially independent by now - what do you think they spend their money on when it actually leaves them short of what is needed to pay for things their children need for school? > Bart: There was a popular play/movie from about 50 or so years ago called "No Time For Sergeants". In it, the main character, a backwoods private, annoys his drill sergeant so much that the sergeant makes him "Permanent Latrine Orderly." The joke there is that the private actually considers it to be an honor, and works as hard as he can to make the latrines a model of cleanliness, until an officer discovers what is going on, and becomes furious. The relevance of this is that JKR makes it rather clear that, from the Ministry point of view, Weasley is the Permanent Latrine Orderly, doing a job that, normally, nobody really wants to do. The fact that he not only does it, but does it enthusiastically, makes him very low in the Ministry hierarchy, rather than high. And, of course, Molly chooses to stay at home rather than earn money herself. This situation mirrors the Mundane world, where economics has altered so that, for most families, two incomes is required to maintain a decent standard of living, And if you notice, the Weasleys have money for all the necessities of life; it's the luxuries where they fall short. So, like many families, they live from paycheck to paycheck, with little or nothing put aside for any extras that arise. Interestingly enough, as wizards, their standard of living is actually a lot higher than most Muggles in the equivalent situation. Still, the economy of the WW is still something of a mystery; they don't appear to have a population level large enough to have a self-sufficient economy, so, logically, it would appear that they do rely on Muggle products to a certain extent. But as this is never mentioned in the books, it is not at all clear how wealth becomes generated. There certainly is some small scale farming (the Weasleys have chickens), but nothing implying production on a large scale (like parchment and paper, the main supplies of food, etc.). Bart From sdlively at comcast.net Sat May 12 15:03:04 2012 From: sdlively at comcast.net (Stephanie) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 15:03:04 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192041 > > Bart: > > > > For example, the lack of "Good Slytherins", at least among the students. > > The Sorting Hat kept talking about unity between the houses, but the > > Slytherin students were, at best, neutral, and, at worst, on the side of > > Morty. > > Andy: > This is kind of a difficult one. There's probably no notably "good" > Slytherin because that is the house where that sort of person is sorted > into. > > Another thing to remember is that as people grow, especially at the ages > students are at Hogwarts, they change. Just because they are sorted into > a house at age 11 doesn't mean they hold the same beliefs and/or > feelings when they leave. If they could be re-sorted every year, chances > are you will see some students being sorted into different houses. Stephanie: Sorry to drop in here. ;0) But even DD said to Snape that sometimes he thinks they sort too soon. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sat May 12 20:54:21 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 20:54:21 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie" wrote: Bart: > > > > > > For example, the lack of "Good Slytherins", at least among the students. > > > The Sorting Hat kept talking about unity between the houses, but the > > > Slytherin students were, at best, neutral, and, at worst, on the side of > > > Morty. Andy: > > This is kind of a difficult one. There's probably no notably "good" > > Slytherin because that is the house where that sort of person is sorted Geoff: How do you square that with the Sorting HAt wanting to put Harry in Slytherin? OK, he turned it down but suppose he hadn't? From thedossetts at gmail.com Sat May 12 23:16:07 2012 From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 23:16:07 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" wrote: > > > Andy: > > > This is kind of a difficult one. There's probably no notably "good" > > > Slytherin because that is the house where that sort of person is sorted > > Geoff: > How do you square that with the Sorting HAt wanting to put > Harry in Slytherin? > > OK, he turned it down but suppose he hadn't? > Pat: First, I want to make certain you understand that I feel there are definitely "good" Slytherins. Having said that, I'd like to address Geoff's question. I have always felt that the Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin because it sensed what no one knew at that point - that Harry's scar was a repository for part of Voldemort's soul. And sensing that that was in Harry was the stimulus for wanting to put Harry in Slytherin. But I totally admit that this is only my opinion. The Sorting Hat actually sees *this* in Harry's head: "Hmmm," said a small voice in his ear. "Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes -- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting. . . . So where shall I put you?" Whereupon Harry thinks, "Not Slytherin. . . " and the Sorting Hat continues - "Not Slytherin, eh?" said the small voice. "Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that -- no? Well, if you're sure -- better be GRYFFINDOR!" (PS/SS Ch. 7, The Sorting Hat, p. 131, American edition) So there are no "Slytherin" traits mentioned, at least not the things the Sorting Hat mentions later in its songs in subsequent books. My two cents worth - again, I feel it was sensing the part of Voldemort that was in Harry, and thus the attempt to push him into Slytherin. Pat From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 13 00:25:40 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 00:25:40 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch.11: Aboard the Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192044 > Questions: > 1. Mr Weasley is asked to - and apparently is willing to - use his position at the Ministry of Magic to help Mad-Eye Moody avoid punishment for attacking Muggles. What does it say about the Wizarding World that even the 'good guys' are apparently willing to ignore their laws when they are inconvenient? Pippin: The casual croneyism is disturbing, even more so because nobody seems to be disturbed by it. B Some have seen this as moral blindness on JKR's part, but I think the parallels with the bad guys' actions are too carefully drawn for that. McGonagall will have a few words to say in OOP about Umbridge using the justice system to keep her cronies out of trouble. Ideally, Arthur would not be doing the same thing. But Arthur doesn't live in an ideal world, he lives in one where the justice system is badly broken, and he knows it. Mad-eye is not going to get an unbiased investigation or a fair trial if people like Umbridge and Lucius have anything to say about it -- and they probably will. There'd be people who would have liked to see Mad-eye locked up in Azkaban or St Mungo's for a long, long time. He'd already been forced to retire. I would like to think that if there had been a careful investigation then maybe the real Mad-eye might have been rescued and Voldemort's plot foiled. But Voldemort had been eluding careful investigators for over fifty years. He was good at it. And honestly, if Mad-eye had reported seeing Voldemort in the form of a monstrous baby, supported by Peter Pettigrew and Barty Crouch Jr -- two men whom most people believed to be dead -- well, that would sound delusional whether he had a reputation for it or not. Arthur will bend the rules to keep his fellow good guys out of trouble. Harry will do the same. In this case the good guy Arthur thinks he's protecting has been replaced by an impostor. But I can't recall that either Arthur or Harry ever deliberately framed a bad guy or planted evidence against them. Arthur's standards may not be as lofty as we'd like but he's got some, IMO -- that's one of the reasons he's poor. > > 2. The Wizarding World is concerned about secrecy - to the extent that it is a significant issue to use magic in front of Muggles. But apparently, there is far less concern about potential giveaways like carrying owls through London in Muggle taxis, accidental setting off of magical fireworks, and the mere fact that hundreds, if not thousands of Wizarding children and their families all descend on one Muggle train station en masse at once. If you were in charge of a Ministry department, trying to ensure the Wizarding World remained secret, would you make any changes to how things operate? Pippin: As far as the Muggles know, there's nothing magical about an owl in a cage. Even in real life, you can see stranger things than that in a London railway station. And in the Muggle world, where Dudley, that scion of arch-conformity, has a school uniform involving orange knickerbockers and a boater, it probably just looks like some kind of oddball school project. I think in real life Britain there are laws about keeping birds of prey as pets, but we don't have to assume that Muggle Britain has them. Pottermore has some info about the Hogwarts express, and also the practice of some wizards to deliberately push the boundaries on Muggle dress and customs. Given that, it makes sense to put all the eggs in one basket and keep an eye on it. I'd try to come up with a better way of detecting underage magic, that's for sure. > > 3. Adults seem to enjoy keeping secrets from Harry. This might be understandable in cases where they are hoping it will help keep him safe (whether they are right or not) but here, Mrs Weasley, Bill, and Charlie all seem to take pleasure in teasing him (along with Ron and Hermione) by dropping hints that something is going to happen. What do you think of the fact that so much is concealed from Harry, even when there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it? Pippin: I think the Tournament was being kept secret because the arrangements were fragile. Dumbledore did not want to raise hopes only to have them dashed because things fell through at the last moment. > > 4. Once again, we are reminded of the fact that the Weasley's are not well off. But Mr Weasley has what seems to be a fairly high level position at the Ministry, and while they do have a large family, their older children (Bill, Charlie, and possibly, Percy) are presumably financially independent by now - what do you think they spend their money on when it actually leaves them short of what is needed to pay for things their children need for school? Pippin: Um, have you priced putting seven children through school? Yes, Hogwarts provides a fund for the financially embarrassed. I'm sure that the Weasleys were far too proud to take so much as a sickle from it. Pippin From cresorchid at gmail.com Sat May 12 22:19:53 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 17:19:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192045 > > > Bart: > > > > > > For example, the lack of "Good Slytherins", at least among the > > > students. The Sorting Hat kept talking about unity between the > > > houses, but the Slytherin students were, at best, neutral, and, > > > at worst, on the side of Morty. > > > > Andy: > > This is kind of a difficult one. There's probably no notably "good" > > Slytherin because that is the house where that sort of person is sorted > > into. > > > > Another thing to remember is that as people grow, especially at the ages > > students are at Hogwarts, they change. Just because they are sorted into > > a house at age 11 doesn't mean they hold the same beliefs and/or > > feelings when they leave. If they could be re-sorted every year, chances > > are you will see some students being sorted into different houses. > > Stephanie: > Sorry to drop in here. ;0) > But even DD said to Snape that sometimes he thinks they sort too soon. Crescent: I don't know how or when they should sort, but I almost think the sorting should only be for the first few years. It seems like in the early years they need the support and help because they are so young, so that the house system helps them get used to living away from family, etc. But by keeping the strict house system, they reinforce all the stereotypes which cause so many problems. If they went to a different system for 4th-7th years or 5th-7th years, they might be able to undo some of the damage and learn to work together. Crescent From jeopardy18 at comcast.net Sun May 13 05:23:37 2012 From: jeopardy18 at comcast.net (SeanM) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 05:23:37 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch.11: Aboard the Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun" wrote: > Questions: > 1. Mr Weasley is asked to - and apparently is willing to - use his position at the Ministry of Magic to help Mad-Eye Moody avoid punishment for attacking Muggles. What does it say about the Wizarding World that even the 'good guys' are apparently willing to ignore their laws when they are inconvenient? > SeanM: I had assumed that Arthur wasn't helping Moody avoid punishment, but was just going to unjinx the policemen and obliviate the muggle witnesses to preserve the Statute of Secrecy. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sun May 13 08:43:47 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 08:43:47 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rtbthw_mom" wrote: Geoff: > > How do you square that with the Sorting HAt wanting to put > > Harry in Slytherin? > > > > OK, he turned it down but suppose he hadn't? Pat: > "Hmmm," said a small voice in his ear. "Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes -- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting. . . . So where shall I put you?" > So there are no "Slytherin" traits mentioned, at least not the things the Sorting Hat mentions later in its songs in subsequent books. Geoff: Curiously, I see the Sorting Hat's comments here as pointing up possible Slytherin traits.... From andy.mills at btinternet.com Sun May 13 09:05:12 2012 From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 10:05:12 +0100 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAF7948.5010900@btinternet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192048 > Bart: >>> >>> For example, the lack of "Good Slytherins", at least among the students. >>> The Sorting Hat kept talking about unity between the houses, but the >>> Slytherin students were, at best, neutral, and, at worst, on the side of >>> Morty. > Andy: >> This is kind of a difficult one. There's probably no notably "good" >> Slytherin because that is the house where that sort of person is sorted > Geoff: > How do you square that with the Sorting HAt wanting to put > Harry in Slytherin? > > OK, he turned it down but suppose he hadn't? AJM: I somehow had a feeling, don't think it's ever been explained though, that the reason the sorting hat may have wanted to put Harry in Slytherin was the fact that he had part of Voldemort's soul in him. The fact that the sorting hat could somehow sense this may have contributed to the fact that the sorting hat considered putting him in Slytherin. Don't know what others think about this. AJM From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 13 13:58:31 2012 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 13:58:31 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192049 > Pat: > > First, I want to make certain you understand that I feel there are definitely "good" Slytherins. Having said that, I'd like to address Geoff's question. I have always felt that the Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin because it sensed what no one knew at that point - that Harry's scar was a repository for part of Voldemort's soul. snip > "Hmmm," said a small voice in his ear. "Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes -- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting. . . . So where shall I put you?" > > Whereupon Harry thinks, "Not Slytherin. . . " and the Sorting Hat continues - > > "Not Slytherin, eh?" said the small voice. "Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that -- no? Well, if you're sure -- better be GRYFFINDOR!" (PS/SS Ch. 7, The Sorting Hat, p. 131, American edition) > > So there are no "Slytherin" traits mentioned, at least not the things the Sorting Hat mentions later in its songs in subsequent books. Potioncat: I know I should snip more, but wanted the whole quote as well as Pat's points. As far as Slytherin traits go-- "a nice thirst to prove yourself," --sounds like ambition to me. And ambition is the key word for Slytherin. I'm not so sure there are any Hufflepuff traits mentioned. Harry is the one who brings up Slytherin--all he knows about Slytherin he learned from his only friend Ron and he knows the one kid he doesn't like is in Slytherin. The Sorting Hat then expands the conversation and seems to be saying that Harry would do very well in Slytherin. If you think about it, the Hat saw courage and ambition in Harry and tempted Harry with greatness. Harry didn't go for it, and he was placed in Gryffindor. (courage over ambition). I do agree with Pat, I think the Sorting Hat sensed the LV soul bit "It's right here in your head" is too good a pun to pass up. And, I can't really see how Slytherin House would help Harry be great. Unless he combined the soul bit in his head with the soul bit in the diary and become Potter!Mort and became the next great Dark Lord. As a side note, I think Trelawney sensed the soul bit as well, and thus some of her very confused predictions were closer to the truth than was obvious. I often find myself defending Slytherin House. Based on the Sorting Hat's description of Slytherin, I don't think it should necessarily be the house of evil it seems to be. It ought to be the house of the very clean-cut, dressed-for-success future successful this-and-thats. The dark side of ambition is doing whatever it takes which the Hat does refer to--that would make a Slytherin "bad." But by the same token, the dark side of any House trait is bad. What really nails Slytherin isn't its traits, but one political view that follows it down the ages---anti-Muggle bigotry. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 13 16:55:24 2012 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 13 May 2012 16:55:24 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/13/2012, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1336928124.52.54653.m16@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192050 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 13, 2012 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cresorchid at gmail.com Sun May 13 12:25:42 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 07:25:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192051 > Pat: > > "Hmmm," said a small voice in his ear. "Difficult. Very difficult. > Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh > > my goodness, yes -- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's > interesting. . . . So where shall I put you?" > > > So there are no "Slytherin" traits mentioned, at least not the > > things the Sorting Hat mentions later in its songs in subsequent > > books. > > Geoff: > Curiously, I see the Sorting Hat's comments here as pointing up > possible Slytherin traits.... Yes, I, Too, see a thirst to prove oneself, as another way of stating ambition, which is quite slithering. Crescent From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sun May 13 20:34:32 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 20:34:32 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandra Lynn wrote: Pat: > > > "Hmmm," said a small voice in his ear. "Difficult. Very difficult. > > Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh > > > my goodness, yes -- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's > > interesting. . . . So where shall I put you?" > > > > > So there are no "Slytherin" traits mentioned, at least not the > > > things the Sorting Hat mentions later in its songs in subsequent > > > books. Geoff: > > Curiously, I see the Sorting Hat's comments here as pointing up > > possible Slytherin traits.... Crescent" > Yes, I, Too, see a thirst to prove oneself, as another way of stating > ambition, which is quite slithering. Geoff: From that comment, I'm not quite sure where your line of reasoning is going... My point was that Pat didn't see any Slytherin traits in what the Sorting Hat said. I see courage, talent and a thirst to prove yourself as perfectly acceptable aims to pursue, hence good ones for the Slytherins to consider. From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 16 06:05:22 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 23:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- A ''Good Slytherin'' In-Reply-To: References: <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> Message-ID: <1337148322.7282.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192053 > Bart: > > For example, the lack of "Good Slytherins", at least among the > students. The Sorting Hat kept talking about unity between the > houses, but the Slytherin students were, at best, neutral, and, > at worst, on the side of Morty. > > > Andy: > > This is kind of a difficult one. There's probably no notably > > "good" Slytherin because that is the house where that sort of > > person is sorted into. > > > > Another thing to remember is that as people grow, especially > > at the ages students are at Hogwarts, they change. Just because > > they are sorted into a house at age 11 doesn't mean they hold > > the same beliefs and/or feelings when they leave. If they could > > be re-sorted every year, chances are you will see some students > > being sorted into different houses. Bruce: Mad-Eye Moody was in Slytherin. I would say that he certainly could have been classified as a "good Slytherin." It's true that most of the actions that we thought were Moody's in GoF were actually done by Barty Crouch, Jr (a Ravenclaw), but he had to do what Moody would have done so they do reflect the actions of Alistair Moody. I do like the idea of Upper/Lower sorting. It might very well help get rid of the stereotyping. If you are going to stereotype, however, then you need to remember that nearly as many Death Eaters are Ravenclaws as Slytherins, but their House doesn't share the same reputation. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From liz.treky at ntlworld.com Wed May 16 09:27:16 2012 From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 10:27:16 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- A ''Good Slytherin'' In-Reply-To: <1337148322.7282.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> <1337148322.7282.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192054 Bruce: Mad-Eye Moody was in Slytherin. I would say that he certainly could have been classified as a "good Slytherin." It's true that most of the actions that we thought were Moody's in GoF were actually done by Barty Crouch, Jr (a Ravenclaw), but he had to do what Moody would have done so they do reflect the actions of Alistair Moody. I do like the idea of Upper/Lower sorting. It might very well help get rid of the stereotyping. If you are going to stereotype, however, then you need to remember that nearly as many Death Eaters are Ravenclaws as Slytherins, but their House doesn't share the same reputation. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics Liz: I must have missed something, when was it said what house Mad-Eye and Crouch jr were in? Kind regards From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 16 09:50:59 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 02:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- OWL System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1337161859.56517.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192055 > Crescent: > > Personally, I always thought it was odd that there were so few > > teachers. I mean, one teacher per subject for ALL AGES??? > > Geoff: > It depends on the subject. and the size of the school. I introduced > Computing subjects to the school in South London where I taught and > I was the only specialist member of staff teaching IT to every > class and then option groups in Years 10 and 11 to GCSE level > (equivalent to OWLs). > > Lynda: > And in the town I live in, the music classes, until middle school > for chorus and band and through middle school for string > instruments, are taught by teachers who drive around to the > different PS in our area, each of them taking 5-6 schools plus > having one schoolroom and clas that is their home base, usually > the middle school classroom. Bruce: These kind of real-life experiences can partially answer why Snape is so unpleasant. However, I doubt that any of the teachers here who have experience as "only specialist" will actively target particular students to embarrass like Severus did in every book until he became Headmaster. [Then we have no real scenes of him with students. But then, he did not have the same opportunities to embarrass students.] Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 16 09:53:09 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 02:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1337161989.30676.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192056 > Lynda: > Now, on to what I would have liked to see in the books, and this > is totally trivial and inconsequential, but it would have been, > (I think) fun. Once, just once, I would have loved to see a couple > of Muggles wander into the magical world and the magical folk have > to deal with them. Bruce: Sounds like a good idea for a fanfic. You're right, it would have been fun to see that. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 16 09:54:26 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 02:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1337162066.25705.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192057 > Pippin: > But it's hard to see how a rudderless Draco winds up in > the Room of Requirement trying to capture Harry. And yet, if > Draco has come to believe that malice is not worth killing for, > why is he there at all? Yet JKR makes it clear that this is > Draco's choice, so it must be important. > Crescent: > Actually, I was always under the impression that Draco's entering the room of requirement was NOT necessarily his choice. He had Crabbe > and Goyle who were as much his guards by that time as his lackeys. If he hadn't gone to the room of requirement willingly, I assumed > they would have turned him over to the Carrows, Snape, Voldemort someone who would (presumably) make Draco very sorry. Bruce: I got the same impression. He was certainly in the doghouse from not killing Dumbledore. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed May 16 21:31:21 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:31:21 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- A ''Good Slytherin'' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz" wrote: Bruce: > Mad-Eye Moody was in Slytherin. I would say that he certainly could > have been classified as a "good Slytherin." It's true that most of > the actions that we thought were Moody's in GoF were actually done > by Barty Crouch, Jr (a Ravenclaw), but he had to do what Moody would > have done so they do reflect the actions of Alistair Moody. Liz: > I must have missed something, when was it said what house Mad-Eye and Crouch > jr were in? > Kind regards Geoff; Same thought occurred to me. I haven't had time to dig around in canon but the Lexicon doesn't give any kind of information. From bart at moosewise.com Thu May 17 03:15:35 2012 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 23:15:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- A ''Good Slytherin'' In-Reply-To: <1337148322.7282.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> <1337148322.7282.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FB46D57.7090008@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192059 Bruce: > Mad-Eye Moody was in Slytherin. I would say that he certainly could > have been classified as a "good Slytherin." It's true that most of the > actions that we thought were Moody's in GoF were actually done by > Barty Crouch, Jr (a Ravenclaw), but he had to do what Moody would have > done so they do reflect the actions of Alistair Moody. I do like the > idea of Upper/Lower sorting. It might very well help get rid of the > stereotyping. If you are going to stereotype, however, then you need > to remember that nearly as many Death Eaters are Ravenclaws as > Slytherins, but their House doesn't share the same reputation. I specified students for :"good Slytherins". Also, what is the source of your statements that Moody was a Slytherin and nearly as many Death Eaters are Ravenclaws as Slytherins? Bart From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 17 17:04:47 2012 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 17:04:47 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192060 I am trying to find old post from Theory Bay. Is it still there? Anyone have a link? Thanks. Tonks From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 17 21:53:48 2012 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 21:53:48 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > I am trying to find old post from Theory Bay. Is it still there? Anyone have a link? Thanks. > > Tonks > Potioncat raises her head slowly and sets down the salt rimmed margarita glass. She's lounging in the sun on the deck of the...on the deck of the...She doesn't remember what the name of the vessel is, but the margarita is cold and life is good. She sees Tonks at the foot of the gangplank. "Come aboard! Have a drink. What post were you looking for? There's thousands of them---and I ought to know!" Potioncat. From Kdvb1 at aol.com Fri May 18 00:23:15 2012 From: Kdvb1 at aol.com (kdvb10) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 00:23:15 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- A ''Good Slytherin'' In-Reply-To: <4FB46D57.7090008@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192062 > Bruce: > > Mad-Eye Moody was in Slytherin. I would say that he certainly > > could have been classified as a "good Slytherin." If > > you are going to stereotype, however, then you need to remember > > that nearly as many Death Eaters are Ravenclaws as Slytherins, > > but their House doesn't share the same reputation. > Bart: > I specified students for :"good Slytherins". Also, what is the > source of your statements that Moody was a Slytherin and nearly > as many Death Eaters are Ravenclaws as Slytherins? Kimberly: I was wondering that too. I looked that the HP Wiki and the only one I could find that was a Ravenclaw is Quirrell. And, he's not listed as a Deatheater actually. The rest all say Slytherin or that they were suspected to be in Slytherin. Kimberly From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 20 16:55:20 2012 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 20 May 2012 16:55:20 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/20/2012, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1337532920.12.92191.m6@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192063 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 20, 2012 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iam.kemper at gmail.com Mon May 21 04:43:10 2012 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (krules) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 04:43:10 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <1337161989.30676.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192064 > > Lynda: > > Once, just once, I would have loved to see a couple > > of Muggles wander into the magical world and the magical folk have > > to deal with them. > Bruce: > Sounds like a good idea for a fanfic. You're right, it would have > been fun to see that. Kemper: We saw Hermione's folks at Flourish & Blotts. Does that count? But to the subject at hand... Of course, seeing good Slytherin students would've been refreshing; seeing Harry held accountable to using 2/3s of the Unforgivables (it should be a lowercase 'u') or have any reflection whatsoever on casting them would too have been cool; seeing one of Snape's silvery memories in the Prince's Tale be Snape looking in a mirror and saying "I'm on your side Harry even though you are a complete and total git. PS., your dad's a knob" would've left Snape less the pining prat he ended up being. O how I miss you, PS/SS-HBP Snape! ...Le sigh. But being 'merican, the things I wish were in the books are any interaction with the folk from Salem Witches' Institute and/or Harry visiting the institution itself. Oh wells. Kemper From bpmull at yahoo.com Mon May 21 06:47:38 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 23:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels -- A ''Good Slytherin'' In-Reply-To: References: <70816389.20120511143100@ajm.me.uk> <1337148322.7282.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1337582858.26647.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192065 > Liz: > I must have missed something, when was it said what house Mad-Eye > and Crouch jr were in? > Kind regards Bruce: You're right. It is not in the books. I either got it from the movies, or one of the fanfics. I will check the movies first. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Mon May 21 07:30:45 2012 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 02:30:45 -0500 Subject: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys. Message-ID: Hey, is it me or has anyone else wondered why it took so long for Percy to side with his family against Voldemort? I'm rereading book 7 and if I remember correctly doesn't he cast a spell at Thicknesse saying "did I tell you I'm resigning?"? Just thought I'd throw that out there. Corey From technomad at intergate.com Mon May 21 17:39:30 2012 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 12:39:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120521123930.c0kt4ex7kg4ws40k@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192067 Quoting Corey overton : > Hey, is it me or has anyone else wondered why it took so long for > Percy to side with his family against Voldemort? I'm rereading > book 7 and if I remember correctly doesn't he cast a spell at > Thicknesse saying "did I tell you I'm resigning?"? Just thought > I'd throw that out there. > > Corey > It's like asking why a lot more people didn't split from East to West Germany before the Wall came down. Once Voldemort's coup d'etat was in place, it would be very dangerous, at best, to leave. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From cresorchid at gmail.com Mon May 21 11:27:38 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 06:27:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: <1337161989.30676.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192068 On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 11:43 PM, krules wrote: > But to the subject at hand... seeing one of Snape's > silvery memories in the Prince's Tale be Snape looking in a > mirror and saying "I'm on your side Harry even though you are > a complete and total git. PS., your dad's a knob" would've > left Snape less the pining prat he ended up being. O how I > miss you, PS/SS-HBP Snape! ...Le sigh. Crescent: Yes, I would have liked to see a memory of Snape along those lines as well. Would have increased the tension and resolution of all those memories. Crescent From cresorchid at gmail.com Mon May 21 11:37:33 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 06:37:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192069 > Corey: > Hey, is it me or has anyone else wondered why it took so long for > Percy to side with his family against Voldemort? I'm rereading > book 7 and if I remember correctly doesn't he cast a spell at > Thicknesse saying "did I tell you I'm resigning?" Just thought > I'd throw that out there. Crescent: I always thought that at first he was just being a prat and then later he had trouble admitting to his family what he had done and apologizing to them. It took so long because he had to get the courage up to apologize to everyone and admit how wrong he had been. Crescent From zucht413 at yahoo.com Mon May 21 14:09:45 2012 From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 07:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1337609385.80275.YahooMailClassic@web112018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192070 > Corey overton wrote: > Hey, is it me or has anyone else wondered why it took so long for Percy to side with his family against Voldemort? I'm rereading book 7 and if I remember correctly doesn't he cast a spell at Thicknesse saying "did I tell you I'm resigning?" Just thought > I'd throw that out there. Scott: I had wondered about that. Did he really stay with the ministry during the atrocities they were committing against muggles and sentient magical creatures? I always wondered more about why nobody seems to remember Ginny's betrayal; it did nearly get Harry and Hermione killed. "I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore From keenefx at yahoo.com Mon May 21 14:29:38 2012 From: keenefx at yahoo.com (keenefx at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 14:29:38 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192071 Bart, I would agree with you about the "Good Slytherins" issue. I think J.K. did paint them with a broad brush of self absorbed, power hungry individuals, with virtually no good characteristics. It seems, that Slytherin House is/should actually be more accurately described as very ambitious individuals, among others. This trait in and of itself is not a bad thing. Since we are on this topic, when in the Deathly Hallows all the Slytherins are confined to their dorms, it seems to remind me (loosely) of the internment of Japanese-Americans after the Pearl Harbor attack. Brian From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Mon May 21 20:24:29 2012 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 15:24:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why it took Percy so long to be with the goodguys. In-Reply-To: <20120521123930.c0kt4ex7kg4ws40k@webmail.intergate.com> References: <20120521123930.c0kt4ex7kg4ws40k@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192072 > Corey: > Hey, is it me or has anyone else wondered why it took so long for > Percy to side with his family against Voldemort? > Eric: > It's like asking why a lot more people didn't split from East to > West Germany before the Wall came down. Once Voldemort's coup > d'etat was in place, it would be very dangerous, at best, to leave. Corey: Oh okay I don't understand the wall thing but I kind of see what you're getting at. But I'm glad he helped in the end. I wish there had been more survivors vs the death eaters. From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Mon May 21 20:26:23 2012 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 15:26:23 -0500 Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1337609385.80275.YahooMailClassic@web112018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1337609385.80275.YahooMailClassic@web112018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192073 > Scott: > I had wondered about that. Did he really stay with the ministry during the atrocities they were committing against muggles and > sentient magical creatures? I always wondered more about why nobody seems to remember Ginny's betrayal; it did nearly get Harry > and Hermione killed. Corey: Ginny didn't betray anyone, she was possessed by Voldemort, remember? From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Mon May 21 20:25:30 2012 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 15:25:30 -0500 Subject: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192074 > Corey: > Hey, is it me or has anyone else wondered why it took so long for > Percy to side with his family against Voldemort? > Crescent: > I always thought that at first he was just being a prat and then later he had trouble admitting to his family what he had done and > apologizing to them. It took so long because he had to get the courage up to apologize to everyone and admit how wrong he had been. Corey: Yeah, that's true, it takes a lot of courage to admit when you're wrong. From cresorchid at gmail.com Mon May 21 20:51:51 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 15:51:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys. In-Reply-To: <1337609385.80275.YahooMailClassic@web112018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1337609385.80275.YahooMailClassic@web112018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192075 > Scott: > I always wondered more about why nobody seems to remember > Ginny's betrayal; it did nearly get Harry and Hermione killed. Ok. I'm feeling stupid here. What betrayal by Ginny??? Crescent From cresorchid at gmail.com Mon May 21 20:55:37 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 15:55:37 -0500 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: <4FA72003.1090801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192076 > Brian: > I would agree with you about the "Good Slytherins" issue. I think > J.K. did paint them with a broad brush of self absorbed, power > hungry individuals, with virtually no good characteristics. > > It seems, that Slytherin House is/should actually be more accurately > described as very ambitious individuals, among others. This trait > in and of itself is not a bad thing. > > Since we are on this topic, when in the Deathly Hallows all the > Slytherins are confined to their dorms, it seems to remind me > (loosely) of the internment of Japanese-Americans after the Pearl > Harbor attack. Crescent: I agree about the Japanese internments as well. Totally reminded me of that when I was reading. That made me quite uncomfortable. Also, I've seen in in fanon and not sure whether it could have been true in canon?that possibly there were neutral or light Slytherins but it was unsafe for them to admit it. Harry has it bad enough, but if he had been sorted into Slytherin and made it clear that he was Light (which we can pretty much take for granted), how safe would he have been in that house? How safe would others who don't have Dumbledore taking a personal interest in them be in that house if they were openly light? Sadly, none were given the opportunity to show their true light colors by turning at the last minute and fighting for the Light because they were locked in their dormitory during the last battle. Crescent From technomad at intergate.com Tue May 22 13:53:37 2012 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 08:53:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why it took Percy so long to be with the goodguys. In-Reply-To: References: <20120521123930.c0kt4ex7kg4ws40k@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: <20120522085337.jlejzek7c4sgwo4c@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192077 Quoting Corey overton : > >> Corey: >> Hey, is it me or has anyone else wondered why it took so long for >> Percy to side with his family against Voldemort? > >> Eric: >> It's like asking why a lot more people didn't split from East to >> West Germany before the Wall came down. Once Voldemort's coup >> d'etat was in place, it would be very dangerous, at best, to leave. > > > Corey: > Oh okay I don't understand the wall thing but I kind of see what > you're getting at. But I'm glad he helped in the end. I wish there > had been more survivors vs the death eaters. > > You never heard of the Berlin Wall? Ye GODS, I feel old! --Eric, 51 years old on this day ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue May 22 20:26:13 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 20:26:13 -0000 Subject: Why it took Percy so long to be with the goodguys. In-Reply-To: <20120522085337.jlejzek7c4sgwo4c@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eric Oppen wrote: Corey: > >> Hey, is it me or has anyone else wondered why it took so long for > >> Percy to side with his family against Voldemort? Eric: > >> It's like asking why a lot more people didn't split from East to > >> West Germany before the Wall came down. Once Voldemort's coup > >> d'etat was in place, it would be very dangerous, at best, to leave. Corey: > > Oh okay I don't understand the wall thing but I kind of see what > > you're getting at. But I'm glad he helped in the end. I wish there > > had been more survivors vs the death eaters. Eric: > You never heard of the Berlin Wall? > > Ye GODS, I feel old! > > --Eric, 51 years old on this day Geoff: This may seem a bit OT but I can see what Eric is getting at. The Berlin Wall was put up across the city in 1960 to stop hundreds of people escaping to the West. It was gradually strengthened until its eventual fall in 1989. In that time, many people made escape attempts, in some cases successful, in others attempts failed and often escapees were shot as they crossed and there were instances of them being left to die in the no-mans-land between. It is not therefore surprising that many folk who wanted out had to lie low and say nothing because they feared being killed if they made an escape attempt plus the fact that there was a network of informers prepared to report them to the authorities. It is easy to draw parallels here with Voldemort's influence in the Wizarding World and the Communist-like control of life as portrayed in DH. I suspect that Percy stayed with the Ministry nursing his grievances and imagined slights by the family against until even he began to see which way the wind was blowing and perhaps more bravely than I would have imagined decided that something needed to be done. Eric, I also feel old. My school used to have exchanges with a school in Frankfurt a M in the mid-1960s and we always had to make a visit to the Iron Curtain which had a similar reputation to the Wall in Berlin. I can assure you that it was incredibly creepy and unsettling even for visitors when you looked across to the DDR side and found a guard watching you through binoculars, when you saw houses lying across the line where the East side was falling apart and motorways that went nowhere. Even now, 45 years or so later, I can hardly repress a shudder if I visit those memories. It is easy to visualise the tension in the Order of the Phoenix during the First Voldemort War when they found their members being picked off one by one = either killed or disabled. There are times when JKR's writing is almost too close to reality. From zucht413 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 06:47:26 2012 From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 23:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1337669246.17571.YahooMailClassic@web112019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192079 >> Scott: > I always wondered more about why nobody seems to remember >> Ginny's betrayal; it did nearly get Harry and Hermione killed. > Corey: > Ginny didn't betray anyone, she was possessed by Voldemort, > remember? Scott: That wasn't what I was talking about... see you've forgotten too. At the start of the Battle of Hogwarts Ginny was left in the room of requirement to guard their rear exit, aka keep the room set to that particular setting so they could escape if necessary. When Harry and Hermione needed into the room to find the diadem he asked Ginny to step out of the room. As soon as she could she ran off to do what she wanted leaving Harry and Hermione to be trapped by Draco and the Butt boys. If she had stayed where she belonged she could have warned Harry and Hermione of the coming problem and evened the odds in fighting, but no... she abandoned her post - in a battle - and nearly got them killed. Instead of getting what she deserved, she got the hero. I guess she should send the Dursleys a Thank You card for teaching Harry that causing harm to him means I Love You. --Z "I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore From cresorchid at gmail.com Tue May 22 11:09:25 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 06:09:25 -0500 Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: <1337609385.80275.YahooMailClassic@web112018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192080 > > Scott: > > I always wondered more about why nobody seems to remember > > Ginny's betrayal; it did nearly get Harry and Hermione killed. > > Corey: > Ginny didn't betray anyone, she was possessed by Voldemort, > remember? Crescent: Ok. See for me that's different. She didn't agree to it, so I don't see that as betrayal. Might make her temporarily an enemy, but not by choice and once the possession was over, that was it. Crescent From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Tue May 22 16:35:43 2012 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 09:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys. In-Reply-To: References: <1337609385.80275.YahooMailClassic@web112018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1337704543.10010.YahooMailNeo@web121303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Scott: > I always wondered more about why nobody seems to remember > Ginny's betrayal; it did nearly get Harry and Hermione killed. > Crescent: > Ok. I'm feeling stupid here. What betrayal by Ginny??? June: I'm lost here too.? The only betrayal by Ginny I can think of is during The Chamber of Secrets and that wasn't her fault, she was being controlled by Voldemort. From philip at whiuk.com Tue May 22 21:06:08 2012 From: philip at whiuk.com (Philip) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 22:06:08 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1337669246.17571.YahooMailClassic@web112019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1337669246.17571.YahooMailClassic@web112019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01cd385e$b7109150$2531b3f0$@com> No: HPFGUIDX 192082 Scott: At the start of the Battle of Hogwarts Ginny was left in the room of requirement to guard their rear exit, aka keep the room set to that particular setting so they could escape if necessary. When Harry and Hermione needed into the room to find the diadem he asked Ginny to step out of the room. As soon as she could she ran off to do what she wanted leaving Harry and Hermione to be trapped by Draco and the Butt boys. If she had stayed where she belonged she could have warned Harry and Hermione of the coming problem and evened the odds in fighting, but no... she abandoned her post - in a battle - and nearly got them killed. Philip: Hmm, my reading of the situation differs substantially and in any case, abandoning a post to fight a different battle on the same side is barely betrayal. Ginny wasn't asked to stay in the RoR to guard the rear exit. It's just a classic case of Molly's protectiveness of her younger daughter (something that is first visible in PS when she's not allowed on the platform). See also "That's my daughter" and the fury of Molly vs. Bellatrix later on. So when Harry tells her to wait outside it's not to guard the room, which I doubt he has the tactical acumen to think about. It's so that she can go back in when he's done (he's obviously protective of her and of course wouldn't want to cross Molly. He doesn't want her in the fighting at all. Her running off to join the battle is an escape to freedom from protection, a desire to help the fight and not a betrayal. "The Butt boys" is also a fairly limited approach - certainly in the first few books it was Draco calling the shots, but by now it's either Goyle or Crabbe (I forget which - the one that parries away the 'must mean' thinking by Draco). Implying that she is responsible for them nearly getting them killed - it is 3 vs. 3 in any case, a fair fight in a battle in which Voldemort's followers likely outnumber the Order, seems somewhat far-fetched. -Philip Whitehouse From cresorchid at gmail.com Tue May 22 21:05:11 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 16:05:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1337669246.17571.YahooMailClassic@web112019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1337669246.17571.YahooMailClassic@web112019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192083 > Scott: > At the start of the Battle of Hogwarts Ginny was left in the room > of requirement to guard their rear exit, aka keep the room set to > that particular setting so they could escape if necessary. When > Harry and Hermione needed into the room to find the diadem he asked > Ginny to step out of the room. As soon as she could she ran off to > do what she wanted leaving Harry and Hermione to be trapped by Draco > and the Butt boys. If she had stayed where she belonged she could > have warned Harry and Hermione of the coming problem and evened the > odds in fighting, but no... she abandoned her post - in a battle - > and nearly got them killed. Instead of getting what she deserved, > she got the hero. I guess she should send the Dursleys a Thank You > card for teaching Harry that causing harm to him means I Love You. Crescent: Wow! I didn't realize that. Don't know how I missed it, but you are right. Either the trio would have had warning, or they would have had better odds in that fight in the RoR. And I love that line of yours "I guess she should send the Dursleys a Thank You card for teaching Harry that causing harm to him means I Love You." How totally fitting!! Crescent From lynde4 at gmail.com Tue May 22 21:09:39 2012 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 14:09:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys. In-Reply-To: <1337704543.10010.YahooMailNeo@web121303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1337609385.80275.YahooMailClassic@web112018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1337704543.10010.YahooMailNeo@web121303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192084 > > Scott: > > I always wondered more about why nobody seems to remember > > Ginny's betrayal; it did nearly get Harry and Hermione killed. > > > Crescent: > > Ok. I'm feeling stupid here. What betrayal by Ginny??? > > June: > I'm lost here too. The only betrayal by Ginny I can think of is > during The Chamber of Secrets and that wasn't her fault, she was > being controlled by Voldemort. > Lynda: Yeah, this thread is the first I'm hearing of a betrayal by Ginny, too. From lynde4 at gmail.com Tue May 22 21:22:08 2012 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 14:22:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1337669246.17571.YahooMailClassic@web112019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1337669246.17571.YahooMailClassic@web112019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192085 > Scott: > At the start of the Battle of Hogwarts Ginny was left in the room > of requirement to guard their rear exit, aka keep the room set to > that particular setting so they could escape if necessary. When > Harry and Hermione needed into the room to find the diadem he asked > Ginny to step out of the room. As soon as she could she ran off to > do what she wanted leaving Harry and Hermione to be trapped by Draco > and the Butt boys. If she had stayed where she belonged she could > have warned Harry and Hermione of the coming problem and evened the > odds in fighting, but no... she abandoned her post - in a battle - > and nearly got them killed. Instead of getting what she deserved, > she got the hero. I guess she should send the Dursleys a Thank You > card for teaching Harry that causing harm to him means I Love You. Lynda: I just reread that section of DH after reading your post, Scott. It seems to me you are under a few misapprehensions. Ginny was not in the room of requirement to guard it. She was there because her mother would not allow her to fight because she was underage. So, when Harry, Ron, and Hermione asked her to step out so they could find the diadem, she did not, as you suggest, abandon her post, she took the opportunity offered to go join the fight. Harry knew she would, which is why he yelled after her, trying to protect her, not to set her as a guard once more. . .Nope. No betrayal there. From zucht413 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 21:42:58 2012 From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 14:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1337722978.10981.YahooMailClassic@web112009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192086 >> Corey: >> Ginny didn't betray anyone, she was possessed by Voldemort, >> remember? > Crescent: > Ok. See for me that's different. She didn't agree to it, so I > don't see that as betrayal. Might make her temporarily an enemy, > but not by choice and once the possession was over, that was it. Scott: You also have forgotten, must have been serious magic to cause such massive loss of memory. "I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore From zucht413 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 21:52:50 2012 From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 14:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <001b01cd385e$b7109150$2531b3f0$@com> Message-ID: <1337723570.16934.YahooMailClassic@web112003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192087 >> Scott: At the start of the Battle of Hogwarts Ginny was left in the room of requirement to guard their rear exit, aka keep the room set to that particular setting so they could escape if necessary. When Harry and Hermione needed into the room to find the diadem he asked Ginny to step out of the room. As soon as she could she ran off to do what she wanted leaving Harry and Hermione to be trapped by Draco and the Butt boys. If she had stayed where she belonged she could have warned Harry and Hermione of the coming problem and evened the odds in fighting, but no... she abandoned her post - in a battle - >> and nearly got them killed. > Philip: > Hmm, my reading of the situation differs substantially and in any case, abandoning a post to fight a different battle on the same side > is barely betrayal. > Ginny wasn't asked to stay in the RoR to guard the rear exit. It's just a classic case of Molly's protectiveness of her younger daughter (something that is first visible in PS when she's not allowed on the > platform). See also "That's my daughter" and the fury of Molly vs. > Bellatrix later on. > So when Harry tells her to wait outside it's not to guard the room, which I doubt he has the tactical acumen to think about. It's so that > she can go back in when he's done (he's obviously protective of her and of course wouldn't want to cross Molly. He doesn't want her in > the fighting at all. Her running off to join the battle is an escape to freedom from > protection, a desire to help the fight and not a betrayal. "The Butt boys" is also a fairly limited approach - certainly in the > first few books it was Draco calling the shots, but by now it's either Goyle or Crabbe (I forget which - the one that parries away > the 'must mean' thinking by Draco). Implying that she is responsible for them nearly getting them killed > - it is 3 vs. 3 in any case, a fair fight in a battle in which Voldemort's followers likely outnumber the Order, seems somewhat > far-fetched. Scott: If, and I repeat IF, the fighting had come her way she would have been justified in leaving to pursue it. BUT, she left on her own. She WAS supposed to keep that room open and available, but didn't. At the very least Harry should have been asking where she had disappeared to. It's really inappropriate to express your freedom DURING a battle. "I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore From cresorchid at gmail.com Tue May 22 23:39:47 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 18:39:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1337723570.16934.YahooMailClassic@web112003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <001b01cd385e$b7109150$2531b3f0$@com> <1337723570.16934.YahooMailClassic@web112003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192088 Scott: If, and I repeat IF, the fighting had come her way she would have been justified in leaving to pursue it. BUT, she left on her own. She WAS supposed to keep that room open and available, but didn't. At the very least Harry should have been asking where she had disappeared to. It's really inappropriate to express your freedom DURING a battle. Crescent: Yes. I have to agree. Wanting to fight is fine; joining in if the fight comes to you is fine. Running off to find a fight alone is downright stupid. That's like asking death eaters to take you out if they catch you alone. If she had gone with somebody else?anybody else?it might have been abandoning the post she was given, but at least she wouldn't be putting herself in as much danger as running around alone in the middle of a battle. If she had stuck around, she could have warned the trio, possibly helped them out and avoided the fiendfyre disaster altogether. But then, I was never very impressed with Ginny as a character to begin with. Crescent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lynde4 at gmail.com Wed May 23 01:20:30 2012 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 18:20:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1337723570.16934.YahooMailClassic@web112003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <001b01cd385e$b7109150$2531b3f0$@com> <1337723570.16934.YahooMailClassic@web112003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192089 ** > > Scott: > If, and I repeat IF, the fighting had come her way she would have > been justified in leaving to pursue it. BUT, she left on her own. > She WAS supposed to keep that room open and available, but didn't. > At the very least Harry should have been asking where she had > disappeared to. It's really inappropriate to express your freedom > DURING a battle. > > > Lynda: She was not "expressing her freedom". The whole thing about "guarding the room" as you put it, was just something her overprotective mother had established to keep her only daughter out of the fight, using the excuse that she was underage. When Ginny stepped out of the room, Harry, along with the other people in the room, knew what she would do, join the fighting. And, I might add, she did not need to be there anymore, to keep it open. The room was then needed for another purpose, to become the storage room for the diadem, so that Harry et al. could find it. Still no abandonment and betrayal on Ginny's part. Just youthful exuberance and stubborness. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed May 23 07:14:00 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 07:14:00 -0000 Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova wrote: Lynda: > She was not "expressing her freedom". The whole thing about "guarding the > room" as you put it, was just something her overprotective mother had > established to keep her only daughter out of the fight, using the excuse > that she was underage. When Ginny stepped out of the room, Harry, along > with the other people in the room, knew what she would do, join the > fighting. And, I might add, she did not need to be there anymore, to keep > it open. The room was then needed for another purpose, to become the > storage room for the diadem, so that Harry et al. could find it. Still no > abandonment and betrayal on Ginny's part. Just youthful exuberance and > stubborness. Geoff: I'm not sure that Harry did realise that Ginny would join in: '"Ginny," said Harry, "I'm sorry, but we need you to leave too. Just for a bit. Then you can come back in" Ginny looked simply delighted to leave her sanctuary. "And then you can come back in!" he shouted after her, as she ran up the steps after Tonks. "You've got to come back in!" (DH "The Battle of Hogwarts" p.502 UK edition) '"They'll be all right," said Harry though he knew they were empty words. "Ginny, we'll be back in a moment, just keep out of the way, keep safe - come on!" he said to Ron and Hermione...' (ibid. p.504) 'Harry staggered to his feet when the Headless Hunt had passed and looked around: the battle was still going on all around him. He could hear more screams than those of the retreating ghosts. Panic flared within him. "Where's Ginny?" he said sharply. "She was here. She was supposed to be going back into the Room of Requirement." (ibid. p.510) The first section of canon implies that Harry did NOT expect Ginny to join the fight. When he shouts after her, he gives me the impression that he suddenly realises that she is going off regardless of his request. In the second quote, he re-emphasises the fact that he wants her out of danger. In the last quote, his concern becomes very much at the forefront of his thoughts. I don't agree that Ginny was betraying Harry. However, what she was doing was displaying the stubbornness and pigheadedness of a Weasley female. By going off to do "her own thing" despite being instructed by Harry to stay out of things she comes dangerously near to seriously distracting him at a crucial point in the battle which I believe was selfish and thoughtless towards the person she apparently loves. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Wed May 23 14:57:46 2012 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 14:57:46 -0000 Subject: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, keenefx at ... wrote: > Since we are on this topic, when in the Deathly Hallows all the > Slytherins are confined to their dorms, it seems to remind me > (loosely) of the internment of Japanese-Americans after the > Pearl Harbor attack. zanooda: Brian, the Slytherins were never confined to any dorms. They were just evacuated from the castle before everyone else. True, they were not offered a choice to stay and fight, like the rest of the school, but confined? No, they were *not* confined, on the contrary, they were sent out of the war zone to safety. And if any of them wanted to fight, he/she could always say "no, I'm not leaving, I'm staying and fighting for Hogwarts", right :-)? From technomad at intergate.com Wed May 23 17:08:12 2012 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 12:08:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things that you wish were in the Harry Potter novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120523120812.rciim68r34gg80wg@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192092 Quoting zanooda2 : > > > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, keenefx at ... wrote: > > >> Since we are on this topic, when in the Deathly Hallows all the >> Slytherins are confined to their dorms, it seems to remind me >> (loosely) of the internment of Japanese-Americans after the >> Pearl Harbor attack. > > zanooda: > > Brian, the Slytherins were never confined to any dorms. They were > just evacuated from the castle before everyone else. True, they were > not offered a choice to stay and fight, like the rest of the > school, but confined? No, they were *not* confined, on the > contrary, they were sent out of the war zone to safety. And if any > of them wanted to fight, he/she could always say "no, I'm not > leaving, I'm staying and fighting for Hogwarts", right :-)? > > I would say that getting them out of the line of fire was wise, if only because it meant that they didn't have a terrible choice to make: Fight my family or fight my schoolmates? ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From cresorchid at gmail.com Wed May 23 11:35:47 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 06:35:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192093 Geoff: I don't agree that Ginny was betraying Harry. However, what she was doing was displaying the stubbornness and pigheadedness of a Weasley female. By going off to do "her own thing" despite being instructed by Harry to stay out of things she comes dangerously near to seriously distracting him at a crucial point in the battle which I believe was selfish and thoughtless towards the person she apparently loves. Crescent: In fact, I think Ginny and her mother simply expect everyone to fall into line and do what they want. Maybe Molly has NEEDED to be like this as the mother of seven will children, but I think Ginny has just gotten away with it because she is the only female child (a spoiled brat) who also happens to have a strong bat-bogey hex. As for betrayal, I don't think Ginny is bright enough to think that through. But it was a betrayal?just not a conscious one. Crescent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lynde4 at gmail.com Wed May 23 17:23:55 2012 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 10:23:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192094 > > > Crescent: > > As for betrayal, I don't think Ginny is bright enough to think that > through. But it was a betrayal?just not a conscious one. > > Lynda: Wow. I've long known that there is a strong anti-Ginny contngent in Potterdom, one I've never been able to figure out, frankly, but saying that Ginny is "not bright enough" to think something through, and that's why there was no betrayal, that's more than a little harsh. As far as whether or not Harry knew she would join the fight, I think he did, because Harry knew Ginny. He knew how she would react. His words, I think were desparate ones, but he knew, down deep, what she would do. Sorry. I still see no betrayal on her part. The room was not needed for it's former purpose of allowing passage at that time. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed May 23 20:31:39 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 20:31:39 -0000 Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova wrote: Lynda: > As far as whether or not Harry knew she would join the fight, I think he > did, because Harry knew Ginny. He knew how she would react. His words, I > think were desparate ones, but he knew, down deep, what she would do. > Sorry. I still see no betrayal on her part. The room was not needed for > it's former purpose of allowing passage at that time. Geoff: I still think he didn't expect her to ignore his instructions. The fact remains that she went gallivanting off wanting her bit of the action regardless of knowing that Harry was concerned about her therefore creating a situation where Harry's focus was being dragged away from the battle. This was either incredibly selfish or plain downright stupidity. In the final quote I highlighted in my last post, the first thing that Harry wants to know when he returns from the Room of Requirement is the whereabouts of Ginny. Within a couple of minutes his worry is reinforced when the wall is brought down and Fred is killed. Everyone is a potential target. I agree with Crescent. Ginny was not consciously betraying Harry but effectively doing so by default. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 23 21:08:43 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 21:08:43 -0000 Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192096 Geoff: > In the second quote, he re-emphasises the fact that he wants her out > of danger. > > In the last quote, his concern becomes very much at the forefront of his > thoughts. > > I don't agree that Ginny was betraying Harry. However, what she was > doing was displaying the stubbornness and pigheadedness of a > Weasley female. By going off to do "her own thing" despite being > instructed by Harry to stay out of things she comes dangerously near > to seriously distracting him at a crucial point in the battle which I > believe was selfish and thoughtless towards the person she apparently > loves. > Pippin: Sooo...Ginny looks bad, and her loyalty is questioned, because she participated in a battle she was ordered to stay out of. Meanwhile, the Slytherins look bad, and their loyalty is questioned, for *not* participating in a battle they were ordered to stay out of. Sounds like a classic double-bind to me. :) Ginny's reckless impulse to join the fight is not only typical Weasley, it's typical Gryffindor. But actually she doesn't run off on her own to join the fighting against Harry's order to stay out of the way. She fights alongside Tonks *before* Harry tells her to stay safe, and then we don't see her fighting again until much later, when Harry is supposedly dead, and not going to be distracted any more. It seems that she fought her impulse to charge into battle and stayed out of the fighting as long as she thought it would do any good. In any case, Ginny could not have warned Harry that Draco was outside the room of requirement, because Little D and his pals were using disillusionment charms. "So how did you get in here?" [Harry] asked, trying to distract them. "I virtually lived in the Room of Hidden Things all last year," said Malfoy, his voice brittle. "I know how to get in." "We was hiding in the corridor outside," grunted Goyle. "We can do Diss-lusion Charms now! And then," his face split into a gormless grin, "you turned up right in front of us and said you was looking for a die-dum! What's a die-dum?" HPB ch 31, American hardcover pg 629. The conversation overheard was this one, which takes place after Harry has skidded "around a final corner" on his way to the Room of Requirement, a few pages before: "I know what the diadem looks like, and I know where it is," said Harry, talking fast. "He hid it exactly where I hid my old Potions book, where everyone's been hiding stuff for centuries. He thought he was the only one to find it. Come on." -- ch 31 p627 ibid Draco's group only had to wait unseen until Harry had changed the room back, Probably they tiptoed in right behind the Trio, which adds no little irony to Ron's incredulous question, "And he never realized *anyone* could get in?" But that brings up something I never thought of before -- Draco and the Inquisitorial Squad also knew that the DA had used the room of requirement as their hideout in OOP. They were on their way with Umbridge when Harry got Dobby's warning. Yet none of them seem to have told the Carrows where they should be hunting. If they had, it wouldn't have been much use for Neville to instruct the Room not to admit any Carrow supporters. No DA members would have been able to enter if the Carrows had blocked off the corridor or set up an ambush for them. So the hideout remained unsuspected for two weeks as the DA reassembled in DH not least because Draco and the other members of the Inquisitorial Squad didn't give it away. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 27 16:55:23 2012 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 May 2012 16:55:23 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/27/2012, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1338137723.20.51946.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192097 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 27, 2012 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpmull at yahoo.com Mon May 28 06:33:34 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 23:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1338186814.33649.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192098 > Pippin: > But that brings up something I never thought of before -- Draco and the Inquisitorial Squad also knew that the DA had used the room of requirement as their hideout in OOP. They were on > their way with Umbridge when Harry got Dobby's warning. > Yet none of them seem to have told the Carrows where they should be hunting. If they had, it wouldn't have been much use for Neville to instruct the Room not to admit any Carrow supporters. No DA members would have been able to enter if the Carrows had blocked > off the corridor or set up an ambush for them. > So the hideout remained unsuspected for two weeks as the DA reassembled in DH not least because Draco and the other members > of the Inquisitorial Squad didn't give it away. Bruce: Good point. I hadn't thought about the fact that the Inquisitorial Squad knew what corridor the Room of Requirement was on. I know Crabbe and Goyle aren't bright enough to remember, but that gives more support to the Draco having second thoughts argument. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From liz.treky at ntlworld.com Mon May 28 09:46:13 2012 From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 10:46:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1338186814.33649.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1338186814.33649.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94FBEA4225D84FE191A8CEFE2C48D2BF@LizHP> No: HPFGUIDX 192099 > Pippin: > But that brings up something I never thought of before -- Draco and the Inquisitorial Squad also knew that the DA had used the room of requirement as their hideout in OOP. They were on > their way with Umbridge when Harry got Dobby's warning. > Yet none of them seem to have told the Carrows where they should be hunting. If they had, it wouldn't have been much use for Neville to instruct the Room not to admit any Carrow supporters. No DA members would have been able to enter if the Carrows had blocked > off the corridor or set up an ambush for them. > So the hideout remained unsuspected for two weeks as the DA reassembled in DH not least because Draco and the other members > of the Inquisitorial Squad didn't give it away. Liz: I do seem to remember that the room would open out on to different places, so a single place couldn't be guarded. I can't remember where it says that, but I have a feeling it is when they are talking about how Neville gets the room perfect. This would make finding and watching the room impossible, so it is conceivable that the Carrows were told about the room, but could still not find it. From cresorchid at gmail.com Mon May 28 11:25:43 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 06:25:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1338186814.33649.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1338186814.33649.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192100 > > Pippin: > > But that brings up something I never thought of before -- > Draco and the Inquisitorial Squad also knew that the DA had used > the room of requirement as their hideout in OOP. They were on > > their way with Umbridge when Harry got Dobby's warning. > > > Yet none of them seem to have told the Carrows where they should > be hunting. If they had, it wouldn't have been much use for Neville > to instruct the Room not to admit any Carrow supporters. No DA > members would have been able to enter if the Carrows had blocked > > off the corridor or set up an ambush for them. > > > So the hideout remained unsuspected for two weeks as the DA > reassembled in DH not least because Draco and the other members > > of the Inquisitorial Squad didn't give it away. > > Bruce: > Good point. I hadn't thought about the fact that the Inquisitorial > Squad knew what corridor the Room of Requirement was on. I know > Crabbe and Goyle aren't bright enough to remember, but that gives > more support to the Draco having second thoughts argument. Crescent: All of that is true. But I wonder if they knew how to open the door or whether they would have tried to blast through again. In fact, the students might have been afraid the Carrows would torture them if they claimed they knew where the students were but there wasn't a door and they couldn't make a door appear. Crescent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bpmull at yahoo.com Mon May 28 13:16:51 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 06:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <94FBEA4225D84FE191A8CEFE2C48D2BF@LizHP> References: <1338186814.33649.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <94FBEA4225D84FE191A8CEFE2C48D2BF@LizHP> Message-ID: <1338211011.88054.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192101 Liz: I do seem to remember that the room would open out on to different places, so a single place couldn't be guarded. I can't remember where it says that, but I have a feeling it is when they are talking about how Neville gets the room perfect. This would make finding and watching the room impossible, so it is conceivable that the Carrows were told about the room, but could still not find it. Bruce: I remember that happening in the movies, but I'm not sure about the books. I'll need to reread them in that point. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bpmull at yahoo.com Mon May 28 13:25:49 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 06:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: <1338186814.33649.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1338211549.83933.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192102 >> Bruce: >> Good point. I hadn't thought about the fact that the Inquisitorial >> Squad knew what corridor the Room of Requirement was on. I know >> Crabbe and Goyle aren't bright enough to remember, but that gives >> more support to the Draco having second thoughts argument. > Crescent: > All of that is true. But I wonder if they knew how to open the door > or whether they would have tried to blast through again. In fact, > the students might have been afraid the Carrows would torture them > if they claimed they knew where the students were but there wasn't > a door and they couldn't make a door appear. Bruce: Knowing the Carrows, you may have a point there. It still doesn't mean that Draco might not be having second thoughts. However, enough about Draco (for now), I think that Percy had several things contributing to his not taking up with the good guys earlier. 1) He was ashamed from his behavior and could not face his family -- remember he really was a git sending that letter to Ron 2) He was afraid of losing his job -- he is from a poor family, having a paying job is not something to dismiss easily 3) He may have been asked to keep an eye on things that were happening at the Ministry by Dumbledore -- not one of the more open characters by far -- and did not want to blow his cover Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From lynde4 at gmail.com Mon May 28 17:18:46 2012 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 10:18:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: <1338186814.33649.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192103 Lynda: I would think that Draco and his cronies would have found the Room of Requirement on their own, when they had a need to hide something. I don't have to be told how they did. It's not their story, but Harry's. As for not telling the Carrows, well, why would they? If the slytherins were in the habit of using the ROR for their own purposes and the Carrows knew about it, that would mean that not only could the Neville et. al. not use it, neither could the slytherin crowd. Just makes sense for the kids to hide the ROR from the adults. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Mon May 28 22:34:13 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 22:34:13 -0000 Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <1338211011.88054.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bruce Mull wrote: Liz: > I do seem to remember that the room would open out on to different places, > so a single place couldn't be guarded. I can't remember where it says that, > but I have a feeling it is when they are talking about how Neville gets the > room perfect. > This would make finding and watching the room impossible, so it is > conceivable that the Carrows were told about the room, but could still not > find it. Bruce: > I remember that happening in the movies, but I'm not sure about the books. I'll need to reread them in that point. Geoff: Canon supplies a little light to having different exits and keeping the Carrows at bay: ''Where are we?" (Harry speaking) "Room of Requirement, of course!" said Neville. "Surpassed itself, hasn't it? The Carrows were chasing me and I knew I had just one chance for a hideout: I managed to get through the door and this is what I found! Well, it wasn't exactly like this when I arrived, it was a lot smaller, there was only one hammock and just Gryffindor hangings. But it's expanded as more and more of the DA have arrived." "And the Carrows can't get in?" asked Harry, looking around for the door. "No," said Seamus Finnigan, whom Harry had not recognised until he spoke: Seamus' face was bruised and puffy. "It's a proper hideout, as long as one of us stays in here, they can't get at us, the door won't open. It's all down to Neville. He really gets this Room. You've got to ask for exactly what you need - like 'I don't want any Carrow supporters to be able to get in' - and it'll do it for you! You've just got to make sure you close the loopholes! Neville's the man!" "It's quite straightforward really," said Neville modestly. "I'd been in here about a day and a half and getting really hungry and wishing I could get something to eat and that's when the passage to the Hog's Head opened up. I went though and met Aberforth..."' (DH "The Lost Diadem", p.465 UK edition) This I think answers Liz's questions and reveals even more how powerful the magic controlling the Room is. The interesting part is that it retains its structure as long as there is someone present. I seem to recall that there is a suggestion in HBP that the Room does not necessarily retain its configuration if the person calling it into existence is not there but that it can be recalled as when Harry returns in DH looking for the diadem. From bart at moosewise.com Tue May 29 01:05:44 2012 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 21:05:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC420E8.9070704@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192105 On 5/28/2012 6:34 PM, Geoff wrote: > This I think answers Liz's questions and reveals even more how > powerful the magic controlling the Room is. The interesting part is > that it retains its structure as long as there is someone present. I > seem to recall that there is a suggestion in HBP that the Room does > not necessarily retain its configuration if the person calling it into > existence is not there but that it can be recalled as when Harry > returns in DH looking for the diadem. Bart: Of course, that also brings up the question: why didn't Draco just ask the room to create a passage that the DE's could use to invade Hogwarts? Bart From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 29 03:02:36 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 03:02:36 -0000 Subject: Draco and the RoR was Ginny In-Reply-To: <4FC420E8.9070704@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192106 > Bart: > Of course, that also brings up the question: why didn't Draco just > ask the room to create a passage that the DE's could use to invade Hogwarts? Pippin: I don't think the Room of Hidden Things can work the same way as other iterations of the room. I think it's only good for hiding things. There are far too many plot holes otherwise: why didn't Harry ask for a way to put the fire out, or something to show him where the Diadem was, or another broomstick for Draco. Draco could have wished for another wand after his was lost. Neville seems to be the only person to discover that the room could provide alternate exits in any case. I recalled the canon about that after I made my previous post. But Draco could still have told the Carrows that the Room was a known hideout any time before Neville took refuge in it, and they would have sealed it off, just like all the other secret passages they didn't want students to use. Draco also knew about the enchanted coins which the DA used to communicate, and the Carrows don't know about that either. You could say, of course, that Draco is only being uncooperative because he figured the Carrows would benefit, not him. But that is just a another way to say that they weren't very enlightened rulers, and isn't that the same reason that everyone else opposes them too? None of this changes the fact that Draco's steps towards the bad seem so confident and his steps towards the good, if that's what they are, are so halting and secretive. What we wanted the good Slytherin to do is what bildungsroman characters are supposed to do, if they are successful: achieve their independence in some positive way. Regulus does that, but doesn't survive the experience. Draco, even on the platform, still behaves more like a failed Dark Wizard than a successful something else. It's not, I think, that hating Muggles is somehow worse than other kinds of prejudice we see in canon. But the rationale that the purebloods have invented to support their hatred is crippling, IMO. The more they choose to believe that birth determines everything, the less room there is to believe that their choices have any power. And if choices have so little power, then why struggle with the ones that are difficult? So, paradoxically, what keeps Draco from making better choices is not inborn wickedness, but the power of the choosing not to believe in choice. Pippin From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue May 29 06:43:34 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 06:43:34 -0000 Subject: Draco and the RoR was Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Pippin: None of this changes the fact that Draco's steps towards the bad seem so confident and his steps towards the good, if that's what they are, are so halting and secretive. Geoff: Not sure I agree. They often mirror each other. For example: on the Tower, Draco's bragging steps towards killing Dumbledore are matched by his faltering and his hesitancy following the latter's offer of sanctuary; at Malfoy Manor, you would think that identifying Harry to gain the thanks of Voldemort would be paramount, yet he hesitates and doesn't go that way; His apparent distaste and horror at the beginning of DH at Voldemort gratuitous killing of Charity Burbage. Somewhere, conscience is trying to struggle through. From cresorchid at gmail.com Tue May 29 11:15:30 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 06:15:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: <4FC420E8.9070704@moosewise.com> References: <4FC420E8.9070704@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192108 > On 5/28/2012 6:34 PM, Geoff wrote: > > This I think answers Liz's questions and reveals even more how > > powerful the magic controlling the Room is. The interesting part > > that it retains its structure as long as there is someone > > present. I seem to recall that there is a suggestion in HBP that > > the Room does not necessarily retain its configuration if the > > person calling it into existence is not there but that it can be > > recalled as when Harry returns in DH looking for the diadem. > > Bart: > Of course, that also brings up the question: why didn't Draco just > ask the room to create a passage that the DE's could use to invade > Hogwarts? Crescent: Well, for one thing you needed to know that the room was that powerful. Neville discovered it by chance when he was desperate and using the room already. Draco might have been desperate, but he wasn't in the room or looking for the room when he was thinking that so he never asked the room to allow the DE's to enter. For all we know, the room may have created a door they could enter through but Draco wasn't looking at or for that door and never realized what it was when he was fixing the vanishing cabinet. Crescent From ddankanyin at cox.net Wed May 30 16:46:55 2012 From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 12:46:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192110 From: "Geoff" Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 2:43 AM --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandra Lynn wrote: Bart: > > Of course, that also brings up the question: why didn't Draco just > > ask the room to create a passage that the DE's could use to invade > > Hogwarts? Crescent: > Well, for one thing you needed to know that the room was that > powerful. Neville discovered it by chance when he was desperate > and using the room already. Draco might have been desperate, but > he wasn't in the room or looking for the room when he was thinking > that so he never asked the room to allow the DE's to enter. For > all we know, the room may have created a door they could enter > through but Draco wasn't looking at or for that door and never > realized what it was when he was fixing the vanishing cabinet. Geoff: You're confusing the original canon with the film version. Neville didn't discover the Room. If I may repost a piece of canon I quoted about the beginning of this month, part of a conversation between Harry and Dobby: `"I need to find a place where twenty-eight people can practise Defence Against the Dark Arts without being discovered by any of the teachers." "Dobby knows the perfect place, sir!" he said happily. "Dobby heard tell of it from the other house-elves when he came to Hogwarts, sir. It is known by us as the Come and Go Room, sir, or else the Room of Requirement!" Why?" said Harry curiously. "Because it is a room that a person can only enter," said Dobby seriously, "when they have real need of it. Dobby has used it. and Dobby knows that Mr. Filch has found extra cleaning materials there." ."How many people know about it?" said Harry, sitting up straighter in his chair. "Very few, sir. Mostly people stumble across it when they needs it but often they never finds it again."' (OOTP "Dumbledore's Army" p.343 UK edition) The film version is one of those scenes when I ask myself "Why did they change it? What's wrong with the original story?" Dorothy: Geoff, I often wonder and comment to anyone who'll listen the very same thing. The films veered away from the original story in many ways that make no sense, either cinematically or for understanding the ideas of the author. Who knows why the films were so "off"? I have no idea either. Think peace, Dorothy From bpmull at yahoo.com Wed May 30 11:08:54 2012 From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 04:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1338376134.57426.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192111 > Geoff: > The film version is one of those scenes when I ask myself "Why did > they change it? What's wrong with the original story?" Bruce: We could go into a whole lot of reasons why movies do not follow the books they are based on, and it might be an interesting topic, but it would soon get WAY OT. Dr Bruce P. Mull Professor of Computer Science Professor of Mathematics From cresorchid at gmail.com Wed May 30 11:56:39 2012 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 06:56:39 -0500 Subject: Ginny (was Re: Why it took Percy so long to be with the good guys.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192112 > > Crescent: > > Well, for one thing you needed to know that the room was that > > powerful. Neville discovered it by chance when he was desperate > > and using the room already. > > Geoff: > You're confusing the original canon with the film version. Neville > didn't discover the Room. Crescent: You're right?Neville didn't discover the room. What I had meant is that he discovered how he could use the room to open up into different areas of the castle as needed. Sorry for the confusion. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 31 16:44:25 2012 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 16:44:25 -0000 Subject: Draco and the RoR was Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192113 > Pippin: > None of this changes the fact that Draco's steps towards the bad seem so confident and his steps towards the good, if that's what they are, are so halting and secretive. > > Geoff: > Not sure I agree. > > They often mirror each other. > > For example: on the Tower, Draco's bragging steps towards killing > Dumbledore are matched by his faltering and his hesitancy following > the latter's offer of sanctuary; at Malfoy Manor, you would think that > identifying Harry to gain the thanks of Voldemort would be paramount, > yet he hesitates and doesn't go that way; His apparent distaste and > horror at the beginning of DH at Voldemort gratuitous killing of Charity > Burbage. > > Somewhere, conscience is trying to struggle through. Pippin: I agree, Draco has acquired a conscience. And because of that, Draco has had to suffer helplessly while Charity Burbage is murdered, hate himself for having to torture Rowle, work against his own father by hesitating to identify Harry, and risk his own life for Goyle, though it's doubtful whether Goyle would have done as much for him. And finally the nod to Harry, which Draco seems far from happy to give. Draco's conscience is as cruel a master as Voldemort ever was. But that could be JKR's point. Draco perceives his conscience as making him do things, instead of presenting him with choices, and that is all the difference. I think this is what JKR meant when she claimed to be subverting the genre. The great choice is not, after all, the expected choice between good and evil. Nor is it between power and weakness as Voldemort thinks. It's between thinking there are choices, and thinking there aren't. Pippin From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Thu May 31 21:52:07 2012 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey overton) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 16:52:07 -0500 Subject: Draco and the RoR was Ginny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192114 I think when it came right down to it Draco didn't really know who his friends really were. Oh and did anyone notice that he didn't thank Harry or the others meaning Ron and Hermione for saving him. Corey. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]