From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Nov  1 14:39:24 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 10:39:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet
 of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6qvgb+3q0q@eGroups.com>
References: <k6qvgb+3q0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5092899C.4010704@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192249

Brad wrote:
> I have real problems with the "unbreakable magical contract." In our world, if someone signed your name to a contract to buy, let's say, an automobile, without your knowledge,that contract would not be in force. This is an exact analogue. It's fraud, not a valid contract, and is pretty obviously a plot device. This is one of the reasons why GoF is my least favorite of the books.

Bart:
     In our world, the contract all too often is kept in force. Ever 
hear of "Identity theft"? Proving that you did not make a contract made 
by an identity thief can be a nightmare, and your life can be destroyed 
in the time between the crime is committed and the time you clear your 
name, if you ever do. Now consider this in a world where a person can 
become cursed by accepting a job.

     Bart



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov  1 16:49:30 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:49:30 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6qvgb+3q0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6u96q+ncah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192250



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brad" <bradleystrickland at ...> wrote:
>
> I have real problems with the "unbreakable magical contract." In our world, if someone signed your name to a contract to buy, let's say, an automobile, without your knowledge,that contract would not be in force. This is an exact analogue. It's fraud, not a valid contract, and is pretty obviously a plot device. This is one of the reasons why GoF is my least favorite of the books.
> 
> Brad
>

Pippin:
I see Bart has already made the point that proving identity fraud isn't always so easy. And even in our world, the law hasn't always been as uniform or  enlightened as you think. I can report from personal experience that back  the 1990's when our story is set, the victim of identity fraud was  considered to be the party deceived by the contract, not the poor schnook (me, in this case) whose identity had been used. 

When a disgruntled relative took out a loan in my name and bought herself a Jacuzzi,  there was no law to stop the loan company from smearing my credit report and trying to intimidate me into paying the debt.

But in the story, the fraud is something of a red herring. It allows JKR to distract us from the more fundamental issue that in our world, a contract with a minor wouldn't be enforceable or could be cancelled by the parent or guardian. 

The laws and customs of the wizarding world aren't exactly a model of enlightenment when it comes to protecting children, but it isn't time for Harry  to notice that as yet. 

Pippin






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov  1 17:07:52 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 17:07:52 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6lcvq+4o66@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6ua98+g7be@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192251


> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123@> wrote: <SNIP summary>
> > .> Questions.
> > > 
> > >> 4. What do you make of Ludo Bagman and Bartemius Crouch as
> > > personalities?
> 
> Alla:
>  
> > As Pippin says we do not see real Bartermius, but regardless, I do remember not liking them both. Bartemius felt like annoying control freak, Ludo felt kind of empty if that makes sense. I would have liked to get to know Bartemius and see if he indeed had the kind of tragic depth some list members argued he did.
> 
> Geoff:
> On the other hand, when we see Crouch in Dumbledore's Pensieve much later, 
> he is still the same brusque, matter of fact civil servant that we have seen 
> previously when, at the World Cup, it was suggested that he could have passed 
> as a bank manager. I would surmise that, although a person is being controlled
> by Imperius, unless instructed to the contrary, their normal attitudes and 
> mannerisms would be the same. So, here in the case of Crouch, we are seeing 
> his normal buttoned-up, 'everything done straight down the line of the rules'. 
> unbending self.


Pippin:
I think you're right in general about the operation of the curse. But I don't think we're seeing Crouch's normal behavior here. The man we saw in the Pensieve and at the World Cup was an energetic, domineering individual. It is not the habit of such men to speak only when they are spoken to, or to lose themselves in a deep reverie while important decisions are being made around them. It's the curse that makes him silent and withdrawn, IMO,  and he is allowed, or forced, to look ill in order to account for it. 

His response, when he gives it, is typical Crouch, I agree. But just like the bank manager's outfit, it's right in detail but hardly suited to the situation. Not even the stuffiest bank manager would wear his City clothes to a campout.

No doubt Crouch is correct and the rules force Harry to compete. But that's not the only issue.  *Four* contestants is still as far from "straight down the line of the rules" as you can get. 

Of course, in whatever corner of his mind is still his own, Crouch already  knows what happened and who is responsible. But if matters were as they appeared to be, any bureaucrat worth the desk he occupies would be demanding an official investigation of such a monstrous irregularity, if only to be sure the blame did not land on him.

Crouch's exact attention to his Muggle outfit is a nice touch, BTW -- it shows a family gift for impersonation. And Barty Jr makes the same sort of errors as his father, getting the details right but overlooking the big picture. It is just such a mistake that finally gives him away. 

Pippin





From cheri0427 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  1 15:41:43 2012
From: cheri0427 at yahoo.com (Cheryl)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 15:41:43 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6qvgb+3q0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6u57n+uthb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192252

Brad wrote:
> I have real problems with the "unbreakable magical contract." In our world, if someone signed your name to a contract to buy, let's say, an automobile, without your knowledge,that contract would not be in force. This is an exact analogue. It's fraud, not a valid contract, and is pretty obviously a plot device. This is one of the reasons why GoF is my least favorite of the books.


I agree with Brad.

Not only was this contract a fraud, Harry was underage so he couldn't sign a binding contract. If that's not true under Wizarding law, then there is something fundamentally wrong with Wizarding law.Harry should have been "allowed" to get out this contract anyway because there should have been away to prove that "he" didn't put his name, for example truth potion, into the goblet. This bothered me too, which is why this book isn't one of my favorites.

Cheryl






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Nov  2 17:18:42 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 17:18:42 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6u57n+uthb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k70v9i+mbfd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192253

Cheryl:
> I agree with Brad.
> 
> Not only was this contract a fraud, Harry was underage so he couldn't sign a binding contract. If that's not true under Wizarding law, then there is something fundamentally wrong with Wizarding law.

Pippin:
Of course there is something fundamentally wrong with Wizarding law -- many things, in fact..
 
The characters themselves recognize it. The laws of the  wizarding world allow the strong to treat the weak, including their own children, with brutality and disregard, and revolts like the one being led by Voldemort are the result.

Pippin




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Nov  2 19:51:09 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 19:51:09 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k70v9i+mbfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k7187d+7ocj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192254

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:

Cheryl: 
> > Not only was this contract a fraud, Harry was underage so he couldn't sign a binding contract. If that's not true under Wizarding law, then there is something fundamentally wrong with Wizarding law.

Pippin:
> Of course there is something fundamentally wrong with Wizarding law -- many things, in fact..
  
> The characters themselves recognize it. The laws of the  wizarding world allow the strong to treat the weak, including their own children, with brutality and disregard, and revolts like the one being led by Voldemort are the result.

Geoff:
I seem to recall that, at various times in the past, contributors to this group 
have suggested that the Wizarding World is reminiscent of the UK in the 
Middle Ages in its attitudes towards the disadvantaged, the weak and, in 
contrast, to the aristocracy (ie purebloods) and powerful.

Would this fit your views? Or do you see different reasons?




From margdean56 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 17:10:51 2012
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 11:10:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet
 of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k7187u+ksbl@eGroups.com>
References: <k70v9i+mbfd@eGroups.com>
	<k7187u+ksbl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2gbLi1hpg=8H-Lvag_N6q85nbhRrOsqaPDgTq-j=2dR+mUdw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192256

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Geoff <geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com> wrote:

> Geoff:
> I seem to recall that, at various times in the past, contributors to this
> group
> have suggested that the Wizarding World is reminiscent of the UK in the
> Middle Ages in its attitudes towards the disadvantaged, the weak and, in
> contrast, to the aristocracy (ie purebloods) and powerful.
>
> Would this fit your views? Or do you see different reasons?

Except that the medieval world had a large safety net that the
Wizarding World doesn't seem to have, to wit, the Church -- which with
all its faults has always felt responsible for the poor and
disadvantaged.  I've never gotten the impression that the WW had a
religion of its own, but rather followed whatever Muggle religions it
happened to share space with.  (e.g. English wizards could be
Christians, the Patil twins and/or their ancestors might be Hindu or
Muslim, etc.)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From cheri0427 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 15:23:15 2012
From: cheri0427 at yahoo.com (Cheryl)
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 15:23:15 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k7187d+7ocj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k73ct3+f6au@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192257

> 
> Geoff:
> I seem to recall that, at various times in the past, contributors to this group 
> have suggested that the Wizarding World is reminiscent of the UK in the 
> Middle Ages in its attitudes towards the disadvantaged, the weak and, in 
> contrast, to the aristocracy (ie purebloods) and powerful.
> 
> Would this fit your views? Or do you see different reasons?
>

Yes, that would fit my view. They broke with the rest of the world in the Middle Ages, and then grew in a very different way. In a lot of ways, they haven't grown much since that time (but it is interesting that they have a Ministry of Magic instead of a King, which to me seems like they may have been more in lighted than Muggles at the time). I see Voldemort as being the "last gasp" to try to keep the Magical world just the same and follow the old ways. I hope that after he is defeated the Magical world would move into move progressive policies. 

Cheryl





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Nov  4 07:56:17 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 07:56:17 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k73ct3+f6au@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k75731+q6es@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192258

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cheryl" <cheri0427 at ...> wrote:
>
Geoff:
> > I seem to recall that, at various times in the past, contributors to this group 
> > have suggested that the Wizarding World is reminiscent of the UK in the 
> > Middle Ages in its attitudes towards the disadvantaged, the weak and, in 
> > contrast, to the aristocracy (ie purebloods) and powerful.
> > 
> > Would this fit your views? Or do you see different reasons?

Cheryl:
> Yes, that would fit my view. They broke with the rest of the world in the Middle Ages, and then grew in a very different way. In a lot of ways, they haven't grown much since that time (but it is interesting that they have a Ministry of Magic instead of a King, which to me seems like they may have been more in lighted than Muggles at the time). I see Voldemort as being the "last gasp" to try to keep the Magical world just the same and follow the old ways. I hope that after he is defeated the Magical world would move into move progressive policies. 

Geoff:
Interesting your comments about Voldemort. Being a little bit speculative, 
in connection with a possible move to a more progressive society, I wonder 
whether pressure for change may come from a different direction, namely 
Harry and possibly folk like Hermione. We see that wizarding society is very 
focused on pureblood traditions; each generation aims to uphold the status 
quo, and we see this in the students of Harry's generation who are the 
pureblood group, not just in Slytherin where the drive is strongest, but in 
the other houses including Gryffindor and to an extent in "maverick" 
pureblood families such as the Weasleys.

Harry is perhaps well suited to be a person who begins to break the mould 
which you highlight. He is for instance a half-blood and, having been
abruptly brought into the Wizarding World only when he was eleven is 
someone who can see it with a fresh mind and no inherited prejudices.
Agreed, there are other powerful half-bloods: Voldemort and Snape come 
to mind but the former arrived at Hogwarts with a large amount of baggage, 
perhaps more than Harry while Snape had grown up knowing the world of 
magic. 

Having defeated Voldemort, Harry is a powerful wizard and as the "Chosen 
One" now carries a fair amount of clout in the Wizarding World. Although 
we are not given any detail between the end of DH and the Epilogue, he 
must have been invited, probably unwillingly(!), to many functions to speak 
and open activities and buildings and after becoming head of the Aurors, 
he would be in a position to influence the thinking of the Ministry at least 
in the way in which law and order operates. 

Similarly, Hermione will be having an effect with her work for magical 
creatures and with Magical Law Enforcement and work to modify pro-
pureblood laws, these points about our characters having been highlighted 
by JKR in various interviews and comments.






From bradleystrickland at charter.net  Tue Nov 13 12:55:49 2012
From: bradleystrickland at charter.net (Brad)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 12:55:49 -0000
Subject: Dobby's attire
Message-ID: <k7tg0l+epbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192259

I'm sure someone somewhere has addressed this, but a recent re-reading of CoS made me wonder. Chapter two makes it clear that Dobby's improvised garment is a pillowcase (it's first referred to as being "like a pillowcase," but later is unambiguously a pillowcase).

Dobby has made rips in it "for his arms and legs".

But...wouldn't he wear it by sliding it down over his head (presumably there is a rip for his head, too)? Then there wouldn't need to be rips for his legs.

Unless he pulls it up like a sack...but then the "neck" would be way too big and there would be a need for something to close it, which is not mentioned.

I know, I obsess over strange details....




From zucht413 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 14 02:38:42 2012
From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:38:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dobby's attire
In-Reply-To: <k7tg0l+epbt@eGroups.com>
References: <k7tg0l+epbt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1352860722.96219.YahooMailNeo@web112006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192260




> Brad:
> I'm sure someone somewhere has addressed this, but a recent re-reading of CoS made me wonder. Chapter two makes it clear that Dobby's improvised garment is a pillowcase (it's first referred to as being "like a pillowcase," but later is unambiguously a pillowcase).

> Dobby has made rips in it "for his arms and legs".

> But...wouldn't he wear it by sliding it down over his head (presumably there is a rip for his head, too)? Then there wouldn't need to be rips for his legs.

> Unless he pulls it up like a sack...but then the "neck" would be way too big and there would be a need for something to close it, which is not mentioned.

> I know, I obsess over strange details....


Z:
I seem to remember a drawing in one of the books where Dobby had
pulled a pillow case up and tied knots on either side to make the
opening smaller and a wide almost scoop neck.  That would account
for the arm and leg holes.

-Z

"I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore




From bradleystrickland at charter.net  Thu Nov 15 15:08:21 2012
From: bradleystrickland at charter.net (Brad)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:08:21 -0000
Subject: Dobby's attire
In-Reply-To: <1352860722.96219.YahooMailNeo@web112006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <k830h5+8t0f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192261

> > Brad:
> > I'm sure someone somewhere has addressed this, but a recent re-reading of CoS made me wonder. Chapter two makes it clear that Dobby's improvised garment is a pillowcase (it's first referred to as being "like a pillowcase," but later is unambiguously a pillowcase).
>
> > Dobby has made rips in it "for his arms and legs".
>
> > But...wouldn't he wear it by sliding it down over his head (presumably there is a rip for his head, too)? Then there wouldn't need to be rips for his legs.
>
> > Unless he pulls it up like a sack...but then the "neck" would be way too big and there would be a need for something to close it, which is not mentioned.

> Z:
> I seem to remember a drawing in one of the books where Dobby had
> pulled a pillow case up and tied knots on either side to make the
> opening smaller and a wide almost scoop neck.  That would account
> for the arm and leg holes.


Brad:
In the chapter illustration, his pillowcase has rips for his arms, knots at the shoulder corners, and a kind of Nehru collar for his neck(!), but his legs come from the open end of the pillowcase.



From sherriola at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 00:53:45 2012
From: sherriola at gmail.com (sherriola)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:53:45 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Seventeen, Goblet of Fire: The Four Champions
Message-ID: <k89bip+9ajv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192262

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Summary:
The chapter opens with Harry sitting stunned in his place at the Gryffindor
table, following his name coming out of the Goblet of Fire. The Great Hall
is buzzing with reactions. Then McGonagall goes to whisper something to
Dumbledore, and he calls Harry's name, telling him to come up to the head
table. Once Harry reaches him, Dumbledore directs him to follow where the
previous students went. Harry joins Cedric, fleur and Viktor, saying
nothing. He's still shocked, not knowing how his name got into the goblet
and afraid of what this means. Still, he's sure that at least Ron and
Hermione will believe that he had nothing to do with it.

Soon, the adults come in. Bagman is excited, Maxime and Karkaroff are angry,
Dumbledore and McGonagall are concerned, Snape sneering and Crouch is
flustered and moody almost calm. They argue about Harry's name coming out of
the Goblet, with Maxime and Karkaroff furious that Hogwarts has two
champions. Dumbledore asks Harry if he put his name in or had an older
student do it and accepts Harry's word when he said he didn't. Hot words and
threats of leaving are exchanged. Snape declares that of course Potter found
a way to sneak his name in, and Moody points out that the person with the
most reason to complain is Harry. But in the end, as it's pointed out that
the students all must compete due to the magical contract, tempers settle
for the time being. 
Mr. Crouch gives the four champions their instruction regarding the first
task, and the students are dismissed. Dumbledore invites the adults to join
him for a night cap, but everyone declines except Bagman. Mr. Crouch seems
unwell.
Harry and Cedric leave together, and before they part to go to their
separate houses, Cedric asks Harry how he got his name in the Goblet. He
doesn't believe Harry's denial. Harry is sure nobody will believe him except
for Ron and Hermione.
When Harry reaches his own common room, there is a huge party going on.
Nobody seems to want to listen to what Harry says, and nobody seems to
notice that he is the one person at the party who isn't excited. Neither Ron
or Hermione are present. Eventually, Harry is able to escape to his room.
There he gets the second shock of the night when he discovers that just like
everyone else, Ron believes he put his name in the Goblet and is angry about
it, thinking Harry should have told him how to do it too.
The chapter ends
with the two boys going to bed angry with each other, shutting their
curtains around their beds.

Questions:

Most of my questions seem to be about the adult characters. We have the main
players together in one room, reacting to the events of the evening, getting
a closer look at them all. In so many ways, the groundwork for future
actions is begun right here.

1. What do you think McGonagall whispered to Dumbledore?

2. Do you think that any of the students believed Harry did not put his name
in the Goblet?

3. What was your impression of the three other champions at this point?

4. There is a magical contract that forces any student whose name comes out
of the goblet to compete in the tournament, however, we are never told what
the terms of this contract might be. Speculate: what do you think the
contract entails? What if Harry had loving guardians, how would they react
to his participation, be it James/Lily or Sirius?

5. The Wizarding world doesn't seem to have the same attitudes about
children as the Muggle world. Of course, the three other participants are of
legal age, but does Harry being forced to participate seem like another
indication of the WW's more lax or open sort of attitudes? An example of
this attitude could be that even in first year, Astronomy classes were held
at midnight, a time when most eleven-year-olds in our world would be asleep.
Can you think of other examples?

6. Do you think Dumbledore used Legilimency on Harry when he asked him about
putting his name in the Goblet? If you do, how do you feel about him doing
so?

7. Did you think there was anything strange going on with Crouch after
reading this chapter?

8. Knowing the overall outcome of the saga, in particular Snape's loyalties
and motives, do you think he really believed Harry put his name in the
goblet, or was this just part of his act? And if you think he did really
believe Harry did it, do you think he truly believes Harry could outwit
Dumbledore's protections against underage wizards entering the tournament?

9. During the adult confrontations, Moody seems to be one of the most calm,
apparently thinking only of what this might mean for Harry. Looking back,
did you have any suspicions of Moody at this point?

10. Knowing Harry, one of the most devastating things to happen was most
likely the way Ron behaved. What did you think about Ron's reactions? Did
you expect him to feel the way he did? Did you think he'd get over this
quickly? That it might last a while? That it might end their friendship? 

Please add any other questions or thoughts you might have?

Sherry


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH
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From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 18 16:22:15 2012
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 16:22:15 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Seventeen, Goblet of Fire: The Four Champions
In-Reply-To: <k89bip+9ajv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8b1vn+9b5d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192263



> 1. What do you think McGonagall whispered to Dumbledore?

Annemehr:
I always wanted to know that!  I don't want it to have been anything so boring as "Dumbledore, you can't let Harry compete!  It's too dangerous!"  Even though that's surely something she *would* say.

> 
> 2. Do you think that any of the students believed Harry did not put his name
> in the Goblet?
> 

Annemehr:
I speculate that Krum may have had an open mind.  He knows what it is like to be a celebrity, and doesn't seem to care about it much. What he cares about is Quidditch.  He would be familiar with unwelcome attention and having to attend functions he wouldn't have chosen himself.  I also wonder whether he really cared about being in the Triwizard Tournament. Perhaps he entered because it was expected of him.  If so, this would make him less threatened by another entrant.

In the little room, when they were first aware there were four champions, Krum scowled.  Since he scowled even before the Quidditch World Cup, I don't see scowling necessarily as a sign of anger in him.  More like concentration, sometimes.  He may have been thinking, rather than jumping to conclusions.

> 3. What was your impression of the three other champions at this point?

Annemehr:
I only recall disliking Fleur for her dismissive remark about Harry.  And if she really thought so little of him, why did she seem to feel threatened by him?  I think there was some personal dishonesty/mental disconnect going on with her.

> 
> 4. There is a magical contract that forces any student whose name comes out
> of the goblet to compete in the tournament, however, we are never told what
> the terms of this contract might be. Speculate: what do you think the
> contract entails? What if Harry had loving guardians, how would they react
> to his participation, be it James/Lily or Sirius?

Annemehr:
I'm having trouble coming up with an answer, and I wonder if JKR had the same trouble and so left it out.  Death and Azkaban seem a bit extreme, for just a tournament.  In fact, a binding magical contract of any sort seems a bit extreme for just a tournament.  Why wouldn't you just lose by forfeit by not showing up?  

Based on this magical contract thingy, I don't think James, Lily, or Sirius would have been able to do anything.

> 
> 5. The Wizarding world doesn't seem to have the same attitudes about
> children as the Muggle world. Of course, the three other participants are of
> legal age, but does Harry being forced to participate seem like another
> indication of the WW's more lax or open sort of attitudes? An example of
> this attitude could be that even in first year, Astronomy classes were held
> at midnight, a time when most eleven-year-olds in our world would be asleep.
> Can you think of other examples?

Annemehr:
The Tournament was not even restricted to wizards who were of age, originally.  The Age Line was something Dumbledore added.  So that is one indication, even though you could normally expect the older, more experienced student would be the ones chosen.

There is also the fact that children get wands at the age of eleven, and we have seen that some are capable of learning to do quite powerful things with them fairly quickly.  Consequently, if they wish to be, they can be well armed with a powerful weapon as minors.

And it's not just minors, either - crazy things happen to the adults, too.

I think the WW is this way partly for the fun of writing and reading it, and partly because Harry & co. need to be able to do a lot of things to get to the end of the story.


> 
> 6. Do you think Dumbledore used Legilimency on Harry when he asked him about
> putting his name in the Goblet? If you do, how do you feel about him doing
> so?
> 

Annemehr
Yes, I think so, and I have no problem with it.  Parents, or those in loco parentis, have to treat children in ways that would be wrong to treat adults, in order to get them safely to adulthood.  DD obviously needs to know for sure if this is an attack on Harry or not.

> 7. Did you think there was anything strange going on with Crouch after
> reading this chapter?
> 

Annemehr:
I thought his illness was going to be important somehow, but I never guessed it was the Imperius Curse at the time.


> 8. Knowing the overall outcome of the saga, in particular Snape's loyalties
> and motives, do you think he really believed Harry put his name in the
> goblet, or was this just part of his act? And if you think he did really
> believe Harry did it, do you think he truly believes Harry could outwit
> Dumbledore's protections against underage wizards entering the tournament?

Annemehr:
I wonder if he thought DD meant Harry to do it, as he meant Harry to find the Stone at the end of PS/SS and to get Sirius free in PoA.  I don't think DD told Snape enough for Snape to really know the answer to that.  Either way, it would have been a huge strain on Snape knowing he had this new danger to protect Harry from.  No wonder he was angry.

> 
> 9. During the adult confrontations, Moody seems to be one of the most calm,
> apparently thinking only of what this might mean for Harry. Looking back,
> did you have any suspicions of Moody at this point?

Annemehr:
No, I thought he was in Auror mode, and thus in a good mental state.

As a retired Auror with many enemies, I think it was unsurprising that in his inactivity his mind kept spinning over all the possibilities so that he ended up being a bit paranoid. (And is it really paranoia if there are people who really are out to get you?) But in this scene, he had something specific to deal with, and so I thought he quite naturally slipped back into his old job, with the mental acuity that went with it.

So, no, at this point his behavior made sense to me, and I had no idea he was not really Moody at all.


> 
> 10. Knowing Harry, one of the most devastating things to happen was most
> likely the way Ron behaved. What did you think about Ron's reactions? Did
> you expect him to feel the way he did? Did you think he'd get over this
> quickly? That it might last a while? That it might end their friendship? 

Annemehr:
I felt it was disloyal of Ron to be so *sure* that Harry had left Ron out of his plans.  I wouldn't have minded if Ron had been just suspicious; it was his certainty that bothered me.  Because there was no way for them to get past that until something huge came along to force Ron to change his perspective (i.e. Harry's near death by dragon).  What if the task weren't so terrifying?  They may have been estranged indefinitely, and all for nothing.

I was very relieved when they finally made up.



Thank you for the interesting batch of questions!

Annemehr





From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Nov 18 17:07:16 2012
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:07:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Seventeen, Goblet
 of Fire: The Four Champions
In-Reply-To: <k8b1vn+9b5d@eGroups.com>
References: <k8b1vn+9b5d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <50A915C4.6000306@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192264

On 11/18/2012 11:22 AM, annemehr wrote:
> 1. What do you think McGonagall whispered to Dumbledore?
> Annemehr:
> I always wanted to know that!  I don't want it to have been anything so boring as "Dumbledore, you can't let Harry compete!  It's too dangerous!"  Even though that's surely something she *would* say.

  Bart:
     I figured something more prosaic like, "Everybody's here, and they 
need to see Harry right now."

     Bart




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Nov 19 01:26:03 2012
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 01:26:03 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6e3ob+1mj9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8c1rb+irfg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192265


> > (b) Again, when you first read this chapter, what were your feelings
> > about the entry being a binding, magical contract?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I KNOW this is influenced by subsequent readings, but to me now it is a silly plot device designed to keep Harry in the competition and I still do not buy that Dumbledore could not break it.
>
 
Potioncat:
First, I have to say that I've responded to this post at least 3 times. And every time I end it with comments about JKR's new book (TBTMNBN) and each time something odd has happened and the post has vanished. So, OK I get it. List Elves has got powerful magic.

So, what I wanted to say is that I don't think this binding contact is just a plot device, because it is consistent with the magic throughout the series.

Look at the contract between House Elves and Wizards. House Elves have their own powerful magic, yet they are absolutely oppressed by wizards. All it takes to break that bond, that contract, is for the wizard to give clothing to the Elf. It doesn't have to be intentional and the House Elf doesn't have to want the freedom. The accidental presenting of clothing to a House Elf frees that elf. The accidental accepting of clothing frees that elf. (Malfoy unintentionally handing a sock to Dobby; House Elves avoiding Gryffindor House so they won't pick up Hermione's hats.)

We also have the pledge for Dumbledore's Army and the blood magic for Harry. Both have unspoken and narrowly defined consequences.

Potioncat, who read TBTMNBN and would love to discuss it. Let me know if you are interested and we can go to OT.
>





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 02:19:52 2012
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 02:19:52 -0000
Subject: TBTMNBN Was:Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k8c1rb+irfg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8c508+ej9d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192266


> Potioncat, who read TBTMNBN and would love to discuss it. Let me know if you are interested and we can go to OT.
> >
>

Oh gosh, I forgot all about it!  I was going to get it from the library by now.  But there is one thing I heard about it that may relate to the HP series --

Space for possible spoiler --

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
|
S
P
A
C
E

Just in case --

Anyway, lots of us may have heard about a Sikh character in "Casual Vacancy" because of some protests about derogatory remarks made to her by one of the unsavory characters in the book.  During that time I read somewhere that Sikhism served as a basis, or touchpoint, for the morality in this book, rather than Christianity.  Is that true? Because if it is, I think that would lend support to the view that HP was more about good and evil in general, and not specifically meant to be a Christian allegory.

Annemehr
who began the books a Christian and ended them not one, but never thought they were allegory




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 03:39:47 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 03:39:47 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k8c1rb+irfg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8c9m3+7f4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192267



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > > (b) Again, when you first read this chapter, what were your feelings
> > > about the entry being a binding, magical contract?
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > I KNOW this is influenced by subsequent readings, but to me now it is a silly plot device designed to keep Harry in the competition and I still do not buy that Dumbledore could not break it.
> >
>  
> Potioncat:
> First, I have to say that I've responded to this post at least 3 times. And every time I end it with comments about JKR's new book (TBTMNBN) and each time something odd has happened and the post has vanished. So, OK I get it. List Elves has got powerful magic.


Alla:

Shhhhhh. I am going to let you in on a little secret. Do you know who else got the powerful magic besides us List Elves? :-)

That would be Mighty Yahoomort. His Highness was supposed to have problems with email delivery to yahoo groups today according to announcement (that probably means difficulties will continue for couple more days knowing how fast they are usually fixed)


Potioncat: 
> So, what I wanted to say is that I don't think this binding contact is just a plot device, because it is consistent with the magic throughout the series.
> 
> Look at the contract between House Elves and Wizards. House Elves have their own powerful magic, yet they are absolutely oppressed by wizards. All it takes to break that bond, that contract, is for the wizard to give clothing to the Elf. It doesn't have to be intentional and the House Elf doesn't have to want the freedom. The accidental presenting of clothing to a House Elf frees that elf. The accidental accepting of clothing frees that elf. (Malfoy unintentionally handing a sock to Dobby; House Elves avoiding Gryffindor House so they won't pick up Hermione's hats.)
> 
> We also have the pledge for Dumbledore's Army and the blood magic for Harry. Both have unspoken and narrowly defined consequences.


Alla:

I did not mean to say that magical contract which Harry allegedly entered into was the only instance when magical contracts happen in the series. I just felt it was tackled on, you know? Why wasn't it mentioned before (once you there, you done). I may not remember and it was mentioned before students enteres. I just thought it either was another one of Dumbledore's complete lies, or lies by omission. As you said, even House elf can be freed, intentional or not there has to be some sort of counteraction IMO :) and nothing here?

It is just hard to imagine for me that for centuries and centuries students did not know that once they got in they are in forever (as participants I mean).

> 
> Potioncat, who read TBTMNBN and would love to discuss it. Let me know if you are interested and we can go to OT.
> >
>





From bradleystrickland at charter.net  Mon Nov 19 12:49:25 2012
From: bradleystrickland at charter.net (Brad)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:49:25 -0000
Subject: TBTMNBN Was:Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k8c508+ej9d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8d9sl+beti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192268

I always thought McGonagall whispered either "Your fly is undone" or "I yearn for you tragically."




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Nov 21 01:21:48 2012
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 01:21:48 -0000
Subject: HP and No spoilers for TBTMNBN Was:
In-Reply-To: <k8c508+ej9d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8habc+448f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192269


 "annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>  Is that true? Because if it is, I think that would lend support to the view that HP was more about good and evil in general, and not specifically meant to be a Christian allegory.
> 


Potioncat:
I don't know if HP was meant to be a Christian allegory, I do think JKR intentionally placed Christian symbols and literary types in the series and I do think, overall it was about good and evil.

As to your question about TBTMNBN---maybe yes. I didn't pick up on it myself though. But now that I think about it.....






From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Nov 23 01:37:54 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 01:37:54 -0000
Subject: HP and No spoilers for TBTMNBN Was:
In-Reply-To: <k8habc+448f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8mk1i+qusi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192270

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

"annemehr" <annemehr@> wrote:
> >  Is that true? Because if it is, I think that would lend support to the view that HP was more about good and evil in general, and not specifically meant to be a Christian allegory.

Potioncat:
> I don't know if HP was meant to be a Christian allegory, I do think JKR intentionally placed Christian symbols and literary types in the series and I do think, overall it was about good and evil.
> 
> As to your question about TBTMNBN---maybe yes. I didn't pick up on it myself though. But now that I think about it.....

Geoff:
As a Christian, she has said on various occasions that
Christian themes underpin the story, the greatest being 
that of the sacrificial and saving power of love but, like
JRRT before her, she avoids allegory.











From cresorchid at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 02:46:03 2012
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 20:46:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and No spoilers for TBTMNBN Was:
In-Reply-To: <k8habc+448f@eGroups.com>
References: <k8c508+ej9d@eGroups.com>
	<k8habc+448f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0NAhRJPVJsK_4+W4cwzH3Dp9Yyb5=LTRTraWN4WBuUkpg@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192271


> Potioncat:
> I don't know if HP was meant to be a Christian allegory, I do think JKR
> intentionally placed Christian symbols and literary types in the series and
> I do think, overall it was about good and evil.
>
> As to your question about TBTMNBN---maybe yes. I didn't pick up on it
> myself though. But now that I think about it.....
>
>


Ok. Now I'm curious. I haven't heard much about JKR's new book. Any
comments? Good, bad, indifferent? I'm really curious? but haven't been
curious enough to buy it yet.

Crescent.


ELFY NOTE:

Guys, if you want to discuss JKR's new book, please go to Off topic chatter here.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/?yguid=112798769

Thanks. :)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 04:21:17 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 04:21:17 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k8c9m3+7f4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8s6bt+61vq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192272






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
>Big skip>
 
> Potioncat: 
> > So, what I wanted to say is that I don't think this binding contact is just a plot device, because it is consistent with the magic throughout the series.
> > 
> > Look at the contract between House Elves and Wizards. House Elves have their own powerful magic, yet they are absolutely oppressed by wizards. All it takes to break that bond, that contract, is for the wizard to give clothing to the Elf. It doesn't have to be intentional and the House Elf doesn't have to want the freedom. The accidental presenting of clothing to a House Elf frees that elf. The accidental accepting of clothing frees that elf. (Malfoy unintentionally handing a sock to Dobby; House Elves avoiding Gryffindor House so they won't pick up Hermione's hats.)
> > 
> > We also have the pledge for Dumbledore's Army and the blood magic for Harry. Both have unspoken and narrowly defined consequences.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I did not mean to say that magical contract which Harry allegedly entered into was the only instance when magical contracts happen in the series. I just felt it was tackled on, you know? Why wasn't it mentioned before (once you there, you done). I may not remember and it was mentioned before students enteres. I just thought it either was another one of Dumbledore's complete lies, or lies by omission. As you said, even House elf can be freed, intentional or not there has to be some sort of counteraction IMO :) and nothing here?
> 
> It is just hard to imagine for me that for centuries and centuries students did not know that once they got in they are in forever (as participants I mean).
> 
> > 
>> 
Nikkalmati

I am surprised that several people on the list, including Dumbledore,
find the Goblet to be somehow unexplained or inconsistent.  I agree with Potioncat that it fits very well within the WW.  We see other instances where rules govern and there is no exception allowed for fairness.  I would point to the Unbreakable Vow (note the twins almost got Ron to cast one as a child)- right?  I also would point to the picking of a wand where the adults and the child have no control over what choice the wand makes.  Also, we have seen no indication that children are given special protection in the WW, and the idea is pretty new in the RW too.  DD would not need to explain the requirements to the students as most of them would understand immediately there was no way to back out.

  The Goblet is an old magic which dates back who knows how many centuries;  it was not created by DD and the most he can do is surround it with an age line to keep underage wizards out.  I see no reason to think he should be able to alter its magic.  Even Fake Moody must work within the rules of the Goblet; he is not able to dictate that Harry should be chosen for Hogwarts; he can only trick the Goblet into thinking there is another school with one entry, Harry. 

  As for the punishment, I would suggest the competetor finds him or herself magically transported into the competition whether he or she wants to be there or not.  Harry would have found himself standing in the ampetheater facing a dragon unprepared or swimming in the lake in all his clothes where he had been hiding in the library. I doubt any authority would be called on to enforce the contract.  It would happen automatically.

    In line with other opinions I have written, I don't think anyone can be Legitimized without their knowing it, just as Harry saw the potions book in his own mind's eye when Snape called it up - so, no, I don't think DD Legitimized Harry at that time.  

Nikkalmati 




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Nov 25 14:15:57 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 14:15:57 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k8s6bt+61vq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8t96t+986v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192273



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214@> wrote:

> Nikkalmati:
> I am surprised that several people on the list, including Dumbledore,
> find the Goblet to be somehow unexplained or inconsistent.  I agree with Potioncat that it fits very well within the WW.  We see other instances where rules govern and there is no exception allowed for fairness.  I would point to the Unbreakable Vow (note the twins almost got Ron to cast one as a child)- right?  I also would point to the picking of a wand where the adults and the child have no control over what choice the wand makes.  Also, we have seen no indication that children are given special protection in the WW, and the idea is pretty new in the RW too.  DD would not need to explain the requirements to the students as most of them would understand immediately.

Geoff: 
(Currently in Toronto in a snow flurry in battle with my son's 
iPad which for me, even as a Mac user, is unknown technology)

Part of the above is to explain that I haven't got the book with me so I 
am working from memory. I seem to recall that the TWT occurs about 
every ten years or so  (?) and since the Wizarding World has been 
otherwise occupied with Voldemort for some years, not everyone may 
be up to speed, especially younger folk such as the student body.

Secondly, I think that Dumbledore is aware of the binding contract but 
has warned likely participants CFO the dangers and probably the 
thought of Harry getting dragged into it hasn't entered into his 
calculations unless you happen to subscribe to the manipulative
Dumbledore club.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Nov 26 01:06:33 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 01:06:33 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k8t96t+986v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k8ufap+i933@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192274


> Geoff: 
> (Currently in Toronto in a snow flurry in battle with my son's 
> iPad which for me, even as a Mac user, is unknown technology)
> 
> Part of the above is to explain that I haven't got the book with me so I 
> am working from memory. I seem to recall that the TWT occurs about 
> every ten years or so  (?) and since the Wizarding World has been 
> otherwise occupied with Voldemort for some years, not everyone may 
> be up to speed, especially younger folk such as the student body.

Pippin:
IIRC (I haven't got my books either) the TWT hadn't been held for a very long time, due to the number of casualties. Hagrid says that he never thought he'd live to see one. I got the impression the last time was not within living memory. 

Dumbledore is indeed aware of the binding magical contract and warns the students beforehand that they must be very sure they wish to compete before they submit their names to the goblet. It is perhaps a bit contrived that no one asks what the penalty is, but after all we are witnessing it all from Harry's vicinity, and he has no reason to ask until it is too late. 

In any case, we are slowly being made aware, like Hermione, that the adults have been glossing   over the harsher aspects of life in the wizarding world. I have no problem believing that some angry wizard, disgusted, say, by the substitution of a ringer for a weaker contestant,  cursed the cup to do something terrible to anyone who withdrew.

There is something JKR wants us to notice about ourselves, IMO, and it is this: the mental machinery that delivers the buzz we get when wrongs are punished  does not concern itself  with whether the punishment is reasonable or just. We have to be trained to care about fairness and logic in this context, and it is clear that many wizards have not been.

But Harry may have had a brush with finding out what happens when he decided to rescue Gabrielle rather than try to win. It could be that if Dumbledore had not persuaded the other judges that this was in fact a competitive move, the goblet would have penalized Harry in some horrible way. 


Geoff:
> Secondly, I think that Dumbledore is aware of the binding contract but 
> has warned likely participants CFO the dangers and probably the 
> thought of Harry getting dragged into it hasn't entered into his 
> calculations unless you happen to subscribe to the manipulative
> Dumbledore club.

Pippin:
I think Dumbledore had realized at this point that his original plan for Harry  was not going to work, even if he had the heart to go through with it. There was more than one horcrux out there, maybe many more, and Harry was not going to be able to get them all before Voldemort figured out what he was doing and stopped him.  Triwizard champions might be useful.
>

Pippin