From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Oct  1 03:13:31 2012
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 03:13:31 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Fifteen, Goblet of Fire: Beauxbatons and Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <k479qb+img8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k4b1or+8hrt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192233



> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > Yes, I thought immediately he was trouble.  I didn't give enough weight to the weak chin, however.  He turned out to be a coward. I have always wondered - How did Igor get to be head of Durmstrang?  
> > He went to Hogwarts and was a DE in the first war.  He spent time in Azkaban. Barty knows him too.  How did he get permission to return?  His comment about "dear old Hogwarts" implies he has not ever been back. If he is English why is he called Igor?  Was his family from whatever country Durmstrang is in?
> 
> Nathaniel:
> Where are you getting that Karkaroff went to Hogwarts? I don't remember that. The "Dear old Hogwarts" comment is a sign that Karkaroff had been there before. Maybe at a previous Tri-wizard tournament or maybe in some other capacity. 
> 
> Becoming headmaster of Durmstrang is a sign that Durmstrang doesn't mind a bit of the Dark Arts. It may even be encouraged.
>
Nikkalmati

At GOF p187 (American hardback edition) we learn that the tounament was established 700 years ago and discontinued because of the death toll.  DD says several attempts to reinstitute the tournament were tried unsuccessfully over the centuries, so I don't think that anyone alive has been to one. Igor would be the only non-British DE we know of, if he were not a British wizard - and almost all British wizards go to Hogwarts.  The phrase "dear old Hogwarts" seems a bit strong for someone who had merely visited the place, even if he is trying to butter up DD.  He seems to be older than SS because he is described as having silver hair.GOF p. 247.  He clearly spent some time in Azkaban despite trying to turn his coat after the Dark Lord disappeared.  Even after he flees when LV returns in GOF, he does not go to Durmstrang or anywhere else in Europe; he eventually is found and killed in England. 

Nikkalmati







From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  3 08:03:09 2012
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2012 08:03:09 -0000
Subject: Strange Stories on Muggle News
In-Reply-To: <CAPyU+0OT5K5sMYOPeqY4yzOCrp3TOVWtWmdECNvBk2+p3ke=-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <k4grft+65ko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192235



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandra Lynn <cresorchid at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 6:55 PM, willsonteam <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > I heard a news report ...
> > "Owls acting strangely--sounds like the type of thing that 
> > would be on Muggle news if there was something afoot in the
> > Wizarding World."
> >
> > ... I switched channels--landing in the middle of an interview 
> > with JKR about her new book--coming out the same day. ...
> 
> 
> Crescent:
> I wish someone would. I don't know whether to buy it or not....
>  who knows what her "writing geared to adults" will be
> like.
> 
> ...
>

Steve:

This should be in the Off-Topic section. But I will say that while the book is adult in nature, it is still about kids (teenagers). But these are kids in the vein of SKINS or CherryBomb. Sex, drug, and rock'n'roll. But we have to accept and not expect this to be Harry Potter. That's done. 

Steve/bboyminn





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Oct  3 20:29:33 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:29:33 -0000
Subject: Strange Stories on Muggle News
In-Reply-To: <k4grft+65ko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k4i77d+1olg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192236

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandra Lynn <cresorchid@> wrote:
 
> > On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 6:55 PM, willsonteam <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> > > I heard a news report ...
> > > "Owls acting strangely--sounds like the type of thing that 
> > > would be on Muggle news if there was something afoot in the
> > > Wizarding World."

> > > ... I switched channels--landing in the middle of an interview 
> > > with JKR about her new book--coming out the same day. ...

Crescent:
> > I wish someone would. I don't know whether to buy it or not....
> >  who knows what her "writing geared to adults" will be
> > like.

 Steve: 
> This should be in the Off-Topic section. But I will say that while the book is adult in nature, it is still about kids (teenagers). But these are kids in the vein of SKINS or CherryBomb. Sex, drug, and rock'n'roll. But we have to accept and not expect this to be Harry Potter. That's done. 

Geoff:
I have to admit that I shall not read the book. I see the Harry Potter books 
as a landmark in fiction. I tend to read very little fiction, being more into 
non-fiction but on my bookshelf, you will find JKR rubbing shoulders with 
JRRT, Alan Garner and other fantasy fiction but you will not see "The Casual 
Vacancy".

Why not?

Because I do not want to have stories about everyday doings from our 
contemporary world -I have the BBC News channel, for that.... and when 
I heard that there is questionable language in it, that was the sticking 
point. One of the nice things about Hogwarts students is that they rarely 
use anything very strong. In my own dealings with young people, I find 
that many of them are in this category and I don't want a 1000 year old 
Anglo-Saxon word appearing in every third sentence!

So I shall remain faithful to Harry, Neville, Hermione at al when I want to 
retire into a world free of falling Footsie indexes, economic downturns
and housing problems. Call me an escapist if you like... You're probably
right but I am unrepentantly so.







From ddankanyin at cox.net  Wed Oct  3 23:20:39 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 19:20:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Strange Stories on Muggle News
References: <k4i77d+1olg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AE4A4C3B1E3E4402B0FBA2A4A0FC4E26@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 192237


From: "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 4:29 PM

> Because I do not want to have stories about everyday doings from our
> contemporary world -I have the BBC News channel, for that.... and when
> I heard that there is questionable language in it, that was the sticking
> point. One of the nice things about Hogwarts students is that they rarely
> use anything very strong. In my own dealings with young people, I find
> that many of them are in this category and I don't want a 1000 year old
> Anglo-Saxon word appearing in every third sentence!
>
> So I shall remain faithful to Harry, Neville, Hermione at al when I want 
> to
> retire into a world free of falling Footsie indexes, economic downturns
> and housing problems. Call me an escapist if you like... You're probably
> right but I am unrepentantly so.

Geoff,
  I know this is off-topic, but Bravo!! I'm pretty much the same.
 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Oct  4 01:35:30 2012
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 01:35:30 -0000
Subject: Strange Stories on Muggle News
In-Reply-To: <k4i77d+1olg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k4ip52+up9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192238

Geoff wrote
> 
> So I shall remain faithful to Harry, Neville, Hermione at al when I want to 
> retire into a world free of falling Footsie indexes, economic downturns
> and housing problems. Call me an escapist if you like... You're probably
> right but I am unrepentantly so.


Potioncat:
Yeah, I can identify. (But I've moved up the line to 206. Saw how much the book costs and decided to wait.)

One of the recent JKR interviews concerning TBTMNBN <eg> is that she has told Harry's story and is done with it. But there are more stories from the Wizarding World, or Potterverse yet to be told--and she might write one of those. I don't know if that's anything new or even if she's serious.

Based on the HP books and background information--what do you think she may have in mind? Or, what character or plot line do you think might be worthy of another book?
>





From jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com  Sun Oct  7 13:53:00 2012
From: jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com (Jeanine Banthorpe)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 14:53:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Strange Stories on Muggle News
Message-ID: <1349617980.99301.YahooMailNeo@web87401.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192239


> Geoff:
<snip> I do not want to have stories about everyday doings from our
contemporary world -I have the BBC News channel, for that.... and when
I heard that there is questionable language in it, that was the sticking
point. One of the nice things about Hogwarts students is that they rarely
use anything very strong. In my own dealings with young people, I find
that many of them are in this category and I don't want a 1000 year old
Anglo-Saxon word appearing in every third sentence!

So I shall remain faithful to Harry, Neville, Hermione at al when I want to
retire into a world free of falling Footsie indexes, economic downturns
and housing problems. Call me an escapist if you like... You're probably
right but I am unrepentantly so. <


Jeanine:
Gosh Geoff you have closely summed up how I feel too.



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Oct 24 06:40:52 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 06:40:52 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
Message-ID: <k682hk+f2kv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192240

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in-boxes, to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic, or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner
@yahoogroups.com

Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet
of Fire.

After the surprise arrival of Victor Krum as a member of the
Durmstrang team, there is evidence of hero worship developing
among the Hogwarts students, Ron and Lee Jordan being amongst
the boys and several girls apparently wanting to get autographs;
on the other hand. Hermione is quite dismissive of Ron's obsession
with Quidditch.

The students from Beauxbatons opt to sit with the Ravenclaws but
they seem very unhappy because they have not brought clothing
suitable for the climate, whereas the Durmstrang boys, being from
a colder and seemingly more austere campus, are removing coats
and admiring their surroundings. Much to Ron's dismay, the latter
group have sat at the Slytherin table.

Dumbledore welcomes them and urges them to enjoy the meal
before the Tournament is opened officially. During the meal, an
encounter leads Ron to suggest that one of the visiting girls is a
Veela, an idea which Hermione scorns despite the former's effect
on many of the boys. During the meal, Bagman and Couch arrive.

At the end of the meal, Dumbledore introduces the visiting officials
who react in quite opposite ways to the applause. He then explains
in some detail the instructions for the Tri-wizard Tournament
stressing the danger. He reveals the Goblet of Fire and explains
that candidates wishing to enter have twenty four hours. He then
announces the age restriction ? that no one under seventeen may
enter and an Age Line will be put in place to ensure this.

There is discussion, started by the twins, about the possibilities of
defeating the Age Line, which even leads Harry to daydream.
Overheard conversations reveal that the Durmstrang students will
be sleeping on their ship and that Krum is something of a favourite
with Karkaroff. At the doors, Harry meets with Karkaroff and there
is a short interchange between the latter and Moody in which he 
shows a mixture of fear and anger towards Moody.

The following morning sees people placing their names in the Goblet.
The twins and Lee come in, having apparently taken an ageing potion.
However, after attempting to enter, the twins are ejected violently from the
circle and receive long beards, to the amusement of Dumbledore.
The Gryffindors talk over breakfast about potential candidates from
Hogwarts and then decide to visit Hagrid, Hermione taking along her
SPEW badges for good measure. They discover * the Beauxbatons
carriage parked by Hagrid's cabin and are greatly surprised to see
Hagrid apparently wearing his best clothes and slicking his hair down.
After lunch, Hagrid flatly refuses to join SPEW and argues with Hermione.

They are about to walk up to the Hall for the Goblet's results and after
seeing that Hagrid is putting on eau-de-Cologne and his subsequent
behaviour they realise that he fancies Madame Maxine. Finally, after the
meal, Dumbledore sets the hall up for the results of the Goblet's choice.
The Goblet theatrically emits sparks and flames and ejects pieces of
charred parchment to reveal the chosen champions: for Durmstrang,
Viktor Krum; for Beauxbatons, Fleur Delacour and for Gryffindor, Cedric
Diggory. These three make their way behind the scenes to wait for the
five judges. Dumbledore is in the middle of a speech exhorting the
various school members to give full support to their champions when
he is interrupted by the Goblet starting again and then ejecting another
piece of parchment. He looks for a long time at it and then reads out
another name: Harry Potter.

Questions.

1. What do you think are the different reasons driving the boys and
girls to want to get autographs of Krum or to get him to sit at their table?

2. (a) Looking at the interactions between Karkaroff and the Durmstrang
students, give your impression of what you deduced about teacher-pupil
attitudes and also about the general ethos of the school.
(b) Do a similar analysis of the relations between Madame Maxine and
the Beauxbatons students. Would you consider some of these students
to be wimps?

3. (a) When you first read this chapter, how did you feel about
Dumbledore's outline of their testing: magical prowess; daring; deduction
and coping with danger?
(b) Again, when you first read this chapter, what were your feelings
about the entry being a binding, magical contract?

4. What do you make of Ludo Bagman and Bartemius Crouch as
personalities?

5. When you first read this, what did you make of the interchange
between Moody and Karkaroff at the Hall doors?

6. Hermione and Hagrid take up opposing stances on house elf welfare.
Is one of them right or do you believe that the answer lies somewhere
between? Do you agree with his dismissal of Dobby as a "weirdo"?

7. (a) Were you surprised by any of the Goblet's "official" choices of
candidate?
(b) And when Harry's name came out?

8. Any questions that you would like to contribute.

Geoff

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

If you would like to volunteer to lead a chapter discussion, please drop a note
to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 26 13:38:19 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:38:19 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k682hk+f2kv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6e3ob+1mj9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192241



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
<snips excellent summary>
>
> > Questions.
> 
> 1. What do you think are the different reasons driving the boys and
> girls to want to get autographs of Krum or to get him to sit at their table?

Alla:

I would imagine they are the same for some girls and some boys though :-). I am sure some girls loved the fact that Krum is an awesome athlete in addition to the fact that he is handsome too. And some boys as well. But yeah - I would imagine these two reasons are the main one and some girls probably only cared that he is handsome and some boys only cared about his talent, but some cared for both.


 
> 2. (a) Looking at the interactions between Karkaroff and the Durmstrang
> students, give your impression of what you deduced about teacher-pupil
> attitudes and also about the general ethos of the school.

Alla:
I do remember that my main thought was that Karkaroff is a very strict headmaster and has favourites, but some students love him. I also remember thinking that Durmstrang invoked for me the echos of not just eastern european, but eastern european military like school.


> (b) Do a similar analysis of the relations between Madame Maxine and
> the Beauxbatons students. Would you consider some of these students
> to be wimps?

Alla:

This is why I love these chapter discussions, because even after so many years and so many times we discuss these books sometimes somebody comes up with new angle, with something I never thought of before. Believe it or not, I never spared a thought about Madame Maxine relationship with her students. I am not sure why - probably because nothing out of ordinary came to my mind or comes to my mind now. I mean, she seems like she cares about her students, but besides that? I am not sure. Whimps? No, why?

 
> 3. (a) When you first read this chapter, how did you feel about
> Dumbledore's outline of their testing: magical prowess; daring; deduction
> and coping with danger?

Alla:

I do not remember for sure, but I think I thought it was very fitting to what those students do and study, the testing I mean and of course it seemed fitting to Dumbledore's philosophies, but not sure if this was influenced by subsequent readings.


> (b) Again, when you first read this chapter, what were your feelings
> about the entry being a binding, magical contract?

Alla:

I KNOW this is influenced by subsequent readings, but to me now it is a silly plot device designed to keep Harry in the competition and I still do not buy that Dumbledore could not break it.


Thanks for the great questions Geoff, I will come back later to answer the rest.
 





From ddankanyin at cox.net  Fri Oct 26 15:54:40 2012
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:54:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
References: <k6e3ob+1mj9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3615F9F951D647B1A974C49F56446217@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 192242


From: "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 9:38 AM
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> 
> wrote:
> <snips excellent summary>
>>
>> > Questions.
>>
>> 1. What do you think are the different reasons driving the boys and
>> girls to want to get autographs of Krum or to get him to sit at their 
>> table?
>
> Alla:
>
> I would imagine they are the same for some girls and some boys though :-). 
> I am sure some girls loved the fact that Krum is an awesome athlete in 
> addition to the fact that he is handsome too. And some boys as well. But 
> yeah - I would imagine these two reasons are the main one and some girls 
> probably only cared that he is handsome and some boys only cared about his 
> talent, but some cared for both.
>
Dorothy:
  I thought that Krum wasn't handsome, or at least he wasn't described that 
way.  He was hook nosed, looked grouchy, and was duck footed.  I know Harry 
and Ron were surprised when they saw him walk because he had been so 
graceful on the quidditch field.  So, I thought the girls were after him 
because he was a famous quidditch player.  Of course, this is just the way I 
read it.
  Dorothy 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 26 21:07:39 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:07:39 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <3615F9F951D647B1A974C49F56446217@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <k6eu2r+6qdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192243



> > Alla:
> >
> > I would imagine they are the same for some girls and some boys though :-). 
> > I am sure some girls loved the fact that Krum is an awesome athlete in 
> > addition to the fact that he is handsome too. And some boys as well. But 
> > yeah - I would imagine these two reasons are the main one and some girls 
> > probably only cared that he is handsome and some boys only cared about his 
> > talent, but some cared for both.
> >
> Dorothy:
>   I thought that Krum wasn't handsome, or at least he wasn't described that 
> way.  He was hook nosed, looked grouchy, and was duck footed.  I know Harry 
> and Ron were surprised when they saw him walk because he had been so 
> graceful on the quidditch field.  So, I thought the girls were after him 
> because he was a famous quidditch player.  Of course, this is just the way I 
> read it.


Alla:

Sure, but I actually agree with the expression "the guy needs to be just a tad more handsome than a Satan" ;). This is an awkward translation from Russian, but the gist is the same. What I am trying to say that while Krum is not exactly my type, I can see him oozing manly appeal if that makes sense. And of course I agree that the fact that he is a famous Quidditch player certainly is one of the reason why girls (and boys) were after him.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Oct 27 15:36:22 2012
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:36:22 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k682hk+f2kv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6gv1m+tnub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192244


> 
> Questions.
> 
> 1. What do you think are the different reasons driving the boys and
> girls to want to get autographs of Krum or to get him to sit at their table?
> 

Pippin:
I'm not sure there is a difference. The magic of celebrity is at work on both sexes, though it takes different forms. It is, as Dumbledore said of music, "a magic beyond all we do here."


> 2. (a) Looking at the interactions between Karkaroff and the Durmstrang
> students, give your impression of what you deduced about teacher-pupil
> attitudes and also about the general ethos of the school.
> (b) Do a similar analysis of the relations between Madame Maxine and
> the Beauxbatons students. Would you consider some of these students
> to be wimps?

Pippin
Though Karkaroff seems more fearsome, the Beauxbatons students treat their headmistress with greater respect, standing when she passes. I don't know that I'd call the Beauxbatons students wimps. Kvetches (Yiddish for always complaining), sure. Though that's mostly Fleur. 

> 
> 3. (a) When you first read this chapter, how did you feel about
> Dumbledore's outline of their testing: magical prowess; daring; deduction
> and coping with danger?
> (b) Again, when you first read this chapter, what were your feelings
> about the entry being a binding, magical contract?

Pippin:
Those do seem to be the qualities that the WW admires in a wizard -- interestingly, Dumbledore does not mention '"moral fibre" though he makes that the deciding factor in one of the contests. 

It was obvious to me that Harry was going to be roped into the contest somehow despite Dumbledore's obvious efforts to make him ineligible. 

What happens to someone who attempts to violate a binding magical contract was not clear to me at the time. But I'd guess now  that once your name comes out of the goblet, you're under an unbreakable vow to compete. 

Since neither Madame Maxime nor Professor Karkaroff could come up with a way to keep Harry out once he had been chosen, it doesn't seem as if there was anything Dumbledore could have done. 

> 
> 4. What do you make of Ludo Bagman and Bartemius Crouch as
> personalities?

Pippin:
We're not seeing the authentic Bartemius here, since he's being controlled by the Imperius Curse.  Both Dumbledore and Harry sense that something is wrong, though neither guesses what it is. I wonder whether the "real" Barty would have said that "Willoughby" (Percy Weasley) was a little too enthusiastic, or whether that was Barty Jr's irritation coming through. 

As for Bagman, his enthusiasm for Harry was grating (rather like Lockhart's.) 


> 5. When you first read this, what did you make of the interchange
> between Moody and Karkaroff at the Hall doors?

Pippin:
Obviously they had some history, but I couldn't have guessed what.
> 
> 6. Hermione and Hagrid take up opposing stances on house elf welfare.
> Is one of them right or do you believe that the answer lies somewhere
> between? Do you agree with his dismissal of Dobby as a "weirdo"?

Pippin:
They're both right -- and they're both wrong. Hermione's moral outrage does her credit, but her campaign is ill-conceived, both naive and unworkable. 

Hagrid's concern for the Elves seems genuine but his argument -- that it's the nature of House Elves to look after humans--doesn't make sense. 

If it was the nature of the Elves to look after humans whatever the circumstances, they wouldn't have to be magically coerced into doing it.  Neither Hagrid nor Hermione appear to have considered  what the Elves actually want in return for their service -- it's not wages and pensions, but neither is it  solely the satisfaction of obeying their nature. What they want  is kindness and respect. Of course Humans, even those with good intentions generally, find that difficult to deliver. Thus the House Elves' enslavement.

Even Harry thinks Dobby is weird. He's an outlier, to put it politely.

> 
> 7. (a) Were you surprised by any of the Goblet's "official" choices of
> candidate?
> (b) And when Harry's name came out?

Pipping:

I think the only surprise was Cedric Diggory. 

Thanks for the questions, Geoff! 

Here's mine.  IIRC, no Durmstrang witches are ever mentioned. Do you think there were any witches in the Durmstrang delegation? (We know there are Beauxbaton males, though they aren't mentioned till later.)

 Is Durmstrang meant to be an all boys school (as in the movie) or do you see this as an oversight on Rowling's part? Or is it, like the sneaky gender references in the World Cup match, an attempt to expose the reader's unconscious bias?

Pippin







From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Oct 28 21:08:16 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:08:16 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6gv1m+tnub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6k6s0+k9b5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192245

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:

> > Questions.

2. (a) Looking at the interactions between Karkaroff and the Durmstrang
> > students, give your impression of what you deduced about teacher-pupil
> > attitudes and also about the general ethos of the school.
> > (b) Do a similar analysis of the relations between Madame Maxine and
> > the Beauxbatons students. Would you consider some of these students
> > to be wimps?

Pippin:
> Though Karkaroff seems more fearsome, the Beauxbatons students treat their headmistress with greater respect, standing when she passes. I don't know that I'd call the Beauxbatons students wimps. Kvetches (Yiddish for always complaining), sure. Though that's mostly Fleur. 

Geoff:
I drew on my own initial reactions to request these two analyses. Karkaroff 
obviously is biased in his treatment of his students as per his fussing around
Krum and his sudden switch of attitude when Poliakoff does a sort of "Oliver 
Twist" approach and is rebuffed and humiliated in short order. 

He seems more interested in his own position and comfort than in the 
welfare of his flock other than Krum.  You will recall that in the previous 
chapter, Karkaroff was wearing good quality clothes while the description 
of the pupils seemed to suggest boys only and that of their clothing seems 
to hint at scruffiness. 

However, when Karkaroff meets Harry at the door of the Hall and the 
Durmstrang students recognise his scar, there is a little sentence tucked 
away here: "The boy with food all down his front nudged the girl next to 
him and pointed openly at Harry's forehead." Would he do that to a girl he 
didn't know?

On the other hand, Madame Maxine seems to me, as someone who went 
through the English educational system, to exude something of the superior 
attitude and air adopted by head teachers of large important schools.

Referring back to chapter 15 again, I have always seen her greeting to 
Dumbledore as almost patronising, something like a monarch meeting a 
lesser mortal - the "gracious smile" and the extending of a hand to be 
kissed and her brisk instructions to tell "zis 'Agrid" how to deal with the 
horses. The organisation of the girls, marshalling into line suggests the 
intent of creating a public image dictated by her. 

Regarding my 'wimp' comment, I was looking at the reactions and 
comments about Hogwarts which suggested that they didn't like the 
school and were complaining about the conditions and also the
reaction of some of the other Beauxbatons students after Fleur's selection 
became known.

I have to admit posed some of my questions a little tongue in cheek and 
also as an attempt to play devil's advocate to try to tease out some contrary 
views perhaps.... that's a bit of the fun in drafting one of these discussions.
:-)




 






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 28 23:22:41 2012
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 23:22:41 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k682hk+f2kv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6keo1+dhgg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192246



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote: <SNIP summary>
.> Questions.
> 
>> 4. What do you make of Ludo Bagman and Bartemius Crouch as
> personalities?

Alla:

As Pippin says we do not see real Bartermius, but regardless, I do remember not liking them both. Bartemius felt like annoying control freak, Ludo felt kind of empty if that makes sense. I would have liked to get to know Bartemius and see if he indeed had the kind of tragic depth some list members argued he did.


> 
> 5. When you first read this, what did you make of the interchange
> between Moody and Karkaroff at the Hall doors?

Alla:

Absolutely do not remember.

> 
> 6. Hermione and Hagrid take up opposing stances on house elf welfare.
> Is one of them right or do you believe that the answer lies somewhere
> between? Do you agree with his dismissal of Dobby as a "weirdo"?


Alla:

Argh, I would have given a different answer before the book was complete, but unfortunately to me the book seven seems to imply now that Hagrid's position is correct and Dobby is a wierdo. I mean, I now feel that completion of house elves theme was wierd. Do any of them actually cared about being free besides Dobby? Not that I remember.

 
> 7. (a) Were you surprised by any of the Goblet's "official" choices of
> candidate?
> (b) And when Harry's name came out?

Alla:

If I remember correctly I did not expect any names, so whatever came out was not a surprise, but yes Harry's name was.







From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Oct 29 07:58:50 2012
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 07:58:50 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6keo1+dhgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6lcvq+4o66@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192247

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123@> wrote: <SNIP summary>
> .> Questions.
> > 
> >> 4. What do you make of Ludo Bagman and Bartemius Crouch as
> > personalities?

Alla:
 
> As Pippin says we do not see real Bartermius, but regardless, I do remember not liking them both. Bartemius felt like annoying control freak, Ludo felt kind of empty if that makes sense. I would have liked to get to know Bartemius and see if he indeed had the kind of tragic depth some list members argued he did.

Geoff:
On the other hand, when we see Crouch in Dumbledore's Pensieve much later, 
he is still the same brusque, matter of fact civil servant that we have seen 
previously when, at the World Cup, it was suggested that he could have passed 
as a bank manager. I would surmise that, although a person is being controlled
by Imperius, unless instructed to the contrary, their normal attitudes and 
mannerisms would be the same. So, here in the case of Crouch, we are seeing 
his normal buttoned-up, 'everything done straight down the line of the rules'. 
unbending self.

Before I went to college, I first went out to work when I was 18 for a year in 
an office five minutes walk from Buckingham Palace (name dropping!). Reading 
about Crouch, I can visualise a guy in the office who completely matched up; 
he was close to retirement and had come through the pin-striped suit, bowler 
hat era but was just as stiff and formal as Crouch is portrayed to be.




From bradleystrickland at charter.net  Wed Oct 31 10:45:31 2012
From: bradleystrickland at charter.net (Brad)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:45:31 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Sixteen, Goblet of Fire: The Goblet of Fire
In-Reply-To: <k6lcvq+4o66@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <k6qvgb+3q0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192248

I have real problems with the "unbreakable magical contract." In our world, if someone signed your name to a contract to buy, let's say, an automobile, without your knowledge,that contract would not be in force. This is an exact analogue. It's fraud, not a valid contract, and is pretty obviously a plot device. This is one of the reasons why GoF is my least favorite of the books.

Brad