From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  3 13:23:59 2013
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (corey)
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:23:59 -0500
Subject: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would he have been nicer to Harry.
Message-ID: <SNT147-DS1998E302DEDEC421740577D5520@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 192486

Hey group, just thought I would post a topic on the group cause the group's been kind of dull, not many messages. But does anyone think that if James, Sirius, Wormtail, and Lupin weren't mean to Snape do you think he would be nicer to Harry?

Corey




From technomad at intergate.com  Sat Aug  3 23:09:07 2013
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 18:09:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
	would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <SNT147-DS1998E302DEDEC421740577D5520@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT147-DS1998E302DEDEC421740577D5520@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20130803180907.cej9f5gazos08g8w@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192487

Quoting corey <coverton1982 at hotmail.com>:

> Hey group, just thought I would post a topic on the group cause the   
> group's been kind of dull, not many messages. But does anyone think   
> that if James, Sirius, Wormtail, and Lupin weren't mean to Snape do   
> you think he would be nicer to Harry?
>
I've a theory to the effect that if Potter and his merry men hadn't  
tormented Snape on the first Express ride they all took together,  
Snape might have ended up in Gryffindor with Lily, and possibly become  
the fifth Marauder in his own right.

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From cresorchid at gmail.com  Sun Aug  4 00:33:59 2013
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 19:33:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would
 he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <20130803180907.cej9f5gazos08g8w@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <SNT147-DS1998E302DEDEC421740577D5520@phx.gbl>
	<20130803180907.cej9f5gazos08g8w@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0OjMDVvMVVEdUDvkgwi4FaFHwMoC=_x+rAixMM54EDvMA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192488

Eric wrote:
I've a theory to the effect that if Potter and his merry men hadn't
tormented Snape on the first Express ride they all took together,
Snape might have ended up in Gryffindor with Lily, and possibly become
the fifth Marauder in his own right.

Crescent:
I hadn't thought about that, but you could be correct. At least if the
Marauders hadn't started up their feud with Snape because he looked poor,
they might have gotten along much better. Despite that, I think he made a
wonderful Slytherin?I just wish there were more Slytherins who were shown
to be decent individuals. Snape could not have been the only one!

I strongly suspect that in Snape's time those who followed Riddle/Voldemort
were the loudest and had the most influence in the house so that those who
were neutral or light kept to themselves. And remember, Slughorn was the
head of Slytherin at the time and the only students he cared about were
those who came from families of influence or who showed great promise that
would benefit Slughorn at some future point in time.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ncfan at att.net  Sun Aug  4 15:56:00 2013
From: ncfan at att.net (ncfan at att.net)
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2013 15:56:00 -0000
Subject: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <SNT147-DS1998E302DEDEC421740577D5520@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192489



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corey" <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:
>
> Hey group, just thought I would post a topic on the group cause the group's been kind of dull, not many messages. But does anyone think that if James, Sirius, Wormtail, and Lupin weren't mean to Snape do you think he would be nicer to Harry?
> 
> Corey
>

Erm, I'm not so sure myself. If the Marauders were nicer to Snape, but Lily still ended up with James, I feel like Snape still would have been pretty nasty to Harry. Not as nasty, perhaps, but still nasty; Snape's really not a nice person, after all.

Of course, the Marauders being nicer to Snape could have any number of consequences on the way events played out. If they didn't bully Snape, Snape might not have called Lily a Mudblood and she might not have cut ties with him, and as a result she might have ended up marrying him instead of James. (Of course, that's only provided that Snape wouldn't have fallen in with the Junior Death Eater Squad at school; I feel like, if he still had, THAT probably would have been enough to drive her away eventually.)

ncfan




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Aug  5 00:13:08 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2013 20:13:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
 would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com>
References: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192490

ncfan:
> Erm, I'm not so sure myself. If the Marauders were nicer to Snape, but 
> Lily still ended up with James, I feel like Snape still would have 
> been pretty nasty to Harry. Not as nasty, perhaps, but still nasty; 
> Snape's really not a nice person, after all.

Bart:
     His personality was shaped by his peers, though, and particularly 
his being tormented in a jocks vs. nerd fashion, by the Marauders. There 
are many indications that he is an extraordinarily skilled wizard, on 
the same order as DD and Morty, but because he was tormented so much, he 
was manipulated into joining the DE's, seeing their enemies as the 
bullies who tormented him, and only when Lily became the target did he 
realize what he had gotten himself into. He had something of an 
inferiority complex; this is why he believed that those who could not 
live up to his own personal standards to be lazy, stupid, or both.

     Bart



From sherriola at gmail.com  Mon Aug  5 00:37:20 2013
From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2013 18:37:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com>
References: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com> <51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <02d101ce9173$f2bbbee0$d8333ca0$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192491

Bart:
     His personality was shaped by his peers, though, and particularly 
His being tormented in a jocks vs. nerd fashion, by the Marauders. There 
are many indications that he is an extraordinarily skilled wizard, on 
the same order as DD and Morty, but because he was tormented so much, he 
was manipulated into joining the DE's, seeing their enemies as the 
bullies who tormented him, and only when Lily became the target did he 
realize what he had gotten himself into. 



Sherry now:
Longtime members will remember I am no fan of Snape. Still, this isn't
really about why I don't like Snape. 

I think it's too simplistic to say that Snape was the way he was because he
was bullied. First of all, we see all this through the lens of Snape's
memories. There are always two sides to every story, and I doubt Snape was
the always innocent victim.

But my main point is that Snape *chose* to become what he became. Think of
the similarities between Harry and Snape. Harry was also bullied. He was
abused by the Dursleys, locked in a closet, later locked in a bedroom with
bars on the windows, not fed enough, called horrible names, put down at
every opportunity, and I personally believe physical abuse at least from his
uncle. Even in the wizarding world, one day he was a hero, the next they
thought he was a crazy liar or worse. But Harry didn't choose to run off and
become part of an evil gang doing all kinds of horrible things to other
people. He chose to be a decent human being, even to the point of making the
ultimate sacrifice, not because of a woman but to try to save his world. He
wasn't always right in what he did, but he tried.

Two boys/men, bullied, verbally and physically abused, and yet only one of
those boys chose not to let bitterness rule him, while the other chose
bitterness and hatefulness.


Dumbledore, at the end of COS, tells Harry that it is the choices we make
that determine who we really are. Harry could have chosen to go down a dark
path, like Snape or even Tom Riddle. And Snape could have chosen to be a
nicer person, or at least to acknowledge Lily in harry, or not to abuse his
authority with his students. Neither Harry nor Snape had a really great life
in the early years, and each chose a different way of dealing with it and
living his life. Choices.

Sherry







From kat7555 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  5 01:16:21 2013
From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 01:16:21 -0000
Subject: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <02d101ce9173$f2bbbee0$d8333ca0$@com>
Message-ID: <ktmud5+f46l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192492


> Sherry now:
> <snip>
> Two boys/men, bullied, verbally and physically abused, and yet only one of
> those boys chose not to let bitterness rule him, while the other chose
> bitterness and hatefulness.
>
>
> Dumbledore, at the end of COS, tells Harry that it is the choices we make
> that determine who we really are. Harry could have chosen to go down a dark
> path, like Snape or even Tom Riddle. And Snape could have chosen to be a
> nicer person, or at least to acknowledge Lily in harry, or not to abuse his
> authority with his students. Neither Harry nor Snape had a really great life
> in the early years, and each chose a different way of dealing with it and
> living his life. Choices.
>

Kathy:
Amen, Sherry. Snape chose to remain bitter regarding his Hogwarts experience. He doesn't make an effort to get to know Harry as an individual and chooses to take out his anger towards James on his son. He also torments Neville so much that he becomes part of his boggart which no good teacher should be.

Kathy



From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Aug  5 02:50:34 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2013 22:50:34 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
 would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <02d101ce9173$f2bbbee0$d8333ca0$@com>
References: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com> <51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com> <02d101ce9173$f2bbbee0$d8333ca0$@com>
Message-ID: <51FF12FA.8060006@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192493

Sherry:
> I think it's too simplistic to say that Snape was the way he was because he
> was bullied. First of all, we see all this through the lens of Snape's
> memories. There are always two sides to every story, and I doubt Snape was
> the always innocent victim.
>
> But my main point is that Snape*chose*  to become what he became. Think of
> the similarities between Harry and Snape. Harry was also bullied. He was
> abused by the Dursleys, locked in a closet, later locked in a bedroom with
> bars on the windows, not fed enough, called horrible names, put down at
> every opportunity, and I personally believe physical abuse at least from his
> uncle. Even in the wizarding world, one day he was a hero, the next they
> thought he was a crazy liar or worse. But Harry didn't choose to run off and
> become part of an evil gang doing all kinds of horrible things to other
> people. He chose to be a decent human being, even to the point of making the
> ultimate sacrifice, not because of a woman but to try to save his world. He
> wasn't always right in what he did, but he tried.
>
> Two boys/men, bullied, verbally and physically abused, and yet only one of
> those boys chose not to let bitterness rule him, while the other chose
> bitterness and hatefulness.

     Both Harry and Snape were manipulated. Not only was Harry protected 
at the Dursleys, but DD wanted to ensure that Harry didn't become a 
cocky jerk like his father as a young man. Note that Draco's first 
reaction to Harry was an attempt to befriend him; if Harry heritage had 
been made known to him, he might have even taken Draco up on it. DD did 
keep track of what was going on at the Dursley's; had Harry been going 
in the wrong direction, he had plenty of resources to nudge Harry on the 
desired path. As a result, Harry entered Hogwarts with a level of 
humility, and, while there is no indication that DD arranged it, the 
motherly Molly was certainly attractive to an orphan on his own, and 
Molly happened to have a son just about Harry's age. And I still say 
that DD's comment about Harry "doing it right" in PS/SS indicates that 
he intended for Harry to rescue the stone; the episode gave Harry 
self-confidence and a desire to continue the war against Morty.

     Snape, on the other hand, while from a underprivileged background, 
was brilliant even as a child. But Potter and Black, both born of 
privilege, looked down on him. If Snape weren't destined to go to 
Slytherin before the train ride to Hogwarts, he was pushed into that 
direction. While Harry met people who all thought he was great, Snape 
encountered people who thought he was a POS. No wonder that he chose to 
go into the house of the wealthy and powerful, rather than the 
brilliant. And, with Morty marshaling his forces together, it is not at 
all surprising that the people at Slytherin welcomed this impoverished 
half-blood. On one-to-one encounters, Snape could quite probably more 
than hold his own, so the Marauders tried to arrange to meet him in a 
pack, where they could outnumber him. It was only natural for Snape to 
gravitate towards his protectors; note, for example, the attitude he has 
towards the elder Malfoy.

     Bart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cresorchid at gmail.com  Mon Aug  5 15:35:21 2013
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:35:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
 would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <51FF12FA.8060006@moosewise.com>
References: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com>
	<51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com>
	<02d101ce9173$f2bbbee0$d8333ca0$@com>
	<51FF12FA.8060006@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0OuP8iqQgcgkK--QKe_4j0jtCaPsbDWxmZD5zsd6-Eanw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192494

Bart:
Snape, on the other hand, while from a underprivileged background,
was brilliant even as a child. But Potter and Black, both born of
privilege, looked down on him. If Snape weren't destined to go to
Slytherin before the train ride to Hogwarts, he was pushed into that
direction. While Harry met people who all thought he was great, Snape
encountered people who thought he was a POS. No wonder that he chose to
go into the house of the wealthy and powerful, rather than the
brilliant. And, with Morty marshaling his forces together, it is not at
all surprising that the people at Slytherin welcomed this impoverished
half-blood. On one-to-one encounters, Snape could quite probably more
than hold his own, so the Marauders tried to arrange to meet him in a
pack, where they could outnumber him. It was only natural for Snape to
gravitate towards his protectors; note, for example, the attitude he has
towards the elder Malfoy.

Crescent:
I also think Snape going into Slytherin condemned him in Dumbledore's eyes.
Remember how the Marauders were always getting away with breaking rules (as
does Harry, but for very different reasons) and McGonagal and Dumbledore
always have these rose-colored glasses through which they remember James
Potter. Add the shrieking shack incident with Sirius setting Snape up to be
murdered and Dumbeldore doing almost nothing about it except threatening
Snape not to tell anyone Lupin's secret and you almost see Dumbledore
pushing him into Voldemort's camp. Why do I say that? Because the leader of
the light side is basically making it clear that not only can they bully
Snape, but they can try to murder him as well. If it were me, even if I
didn't much like Voldemort I might have joined for protection!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Aug  6 04:36:52 2013
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 22:36:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
 would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com>
References: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com> <51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <52007D64.1070006@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 192495

On 8/4/2013 6:13 PM, Bart Lidofsky wrote:
> ncfan:
>> Erm, I'm not so sure myself. If the Marauders were nicer to Snape, but
>> Lily still ended up with James, I feel like Snape still would have
>> been pretty nasty to Harry. Not as nasty, perhaps, but still nasty;
>> Snape's really not a nice person, after all.
> Bart:
>       His personality was shaped by his peers, though, and particularly
> his being tormented in a jocks vs. nerd fashion, by the Marauders. There
> are many indications that he is an extraordinarily skilled wizard, on
> the same order as DD and Morty, but because he was tormented so much, he
> was manipulated into joining the DE's, seeing their enemies as the
> bullies who tormented him, and only when Lily became the target did he
> realize what he had gotten himself into. He had something of an
> inferiority complex; this is why he believed that those who could not
> live up to his own personal standards to be lazy, stupid, or both.
>
>       Bart
Shelley now:
Ncfan says Snape's not really a nice person, Bart is indicating that his 
personality was shaped by his peers. I think I am leaning much more with 
Ncfan. How you take teasing (surely, Hogwarts wasn't his first school 
setting? Surely, he had been teased before???) has pretty much been 
established by the age 11, before his first train ride. It is my opinion 
that kids who are badly teased put off an air that people read as weak 
and unable to stand up for themselves. We see that insecurity in 
Voldemort (Tom Riddle pre-Hogwarts), who makes himself a bully so that 
he won't be teased or thought of as weak. He preemptively makes the 
other kids fear him so they don't dare make fun of him. Snape strikes me 
as that same bent, and if Hogwarts wasn't reigning him in, he'd be 
tormenting the other kids much like the very young Tom Riddle did. Even 
as a teacher, he can't resist being nasty to Hermione, either, so it's 
not something he ever grew out of. His personality seems to have 
remained the same, to me. Aunt Petunia's reading of the young Snape was 
that he was a nasty boy, and she's not in the crowd that assaulted him 
at Hogwarts- her reading of him was pre-Hogwarts. She seems to have 
given him a fair chance, and he ruined it all on his own.

Some people know who they are, and even when they are teased, their 
faith in themselves is not shaken. But Snape appears to have entered 
Hogwarts handicapped by emotional trauma of his family, and maybe 
further embarrassed by poverty, and even with Petunia, even handicapped 
by his own failures at ruining friendships of people who could have been 
his friends had he not been mean to them.   Even if he found a group of 
kids loving and accepting, somehow I think the young Snape would still 
be doubting himself, hiding parts of his past and not wanting kids to 
know where he came from, because it wasn't pretty. Even if the other 
kids had been loving and accepting to him, people who have a mean streak 
somehow can't manage leaking it out. Sooner or later, they hurt the 
people around them.  I don't think the Death Eaters were anything but an 
attempt at a power grab for Snape, much the way that young Tom Riddle 
got some sick pleasure in using magic to harm someone, I think this was 
Snape's inner need to control people whom I'm sure he just all lumped 
together as "getting back at the ones who were mean to me". There were 
innocent people in the crowd, but I am sure Snape used transference of 
all the wrongs done to him to justify why this next innocent person 
should be bullied. I am quite sure the rumor of being a Death Eater made 
some kids in Hogwarts steer way clear of him, and he liked it that way 
(versus the potential of being teased). There is a measure of control 
when people fear you.

Talent in magic is a whole separate thing from personality; both weak 
and skilled wizards are Death Eaters, both weak and strong personalities 
are Death Eaters. They each have their own reasons for joining, but I 
think Snape's only reason is to justify his inner bully and need to 
control other people.  I think there is a hint of regret in Snape, but 
often it's too little and too late, and he pays the price for being what 
Petunia (I think correctly) labeled as "that nasty boy". He just never 
seems to move on to take responsibility for being right where he is 
because of the actions he has chosen. Even as a teacher, he's not a 
better person for what he went through, and that was solely his choice. 
You can't say "I'm nasty because I was bullied", instead, a person who 
matures past that learns that if you want people to like you, you have 
to first be likeable, and that means fixing the parts of you that are 
offensive to other people.

So no, I think NOT what the Marauders did to Snape has anything to do 
with how Snape treats Harry. He was mean to Petunia, when he was young. 
He was mean to Lilly, someone who had been his friend for a long time. 
He was mean to people as a Death Eater. He was mean to Hermione even 
when he was an adult and should have been beyond such childish 
pleasures.  It's a consistent part of his life and personality. I think 
jealousy of Harry's father kept Harry fresh in Snape's mind, but so did 
Dumbledore's insisting that Snape owed Harry some protection from 
Voldemort as an attonement of Snape's past sins. It's that needing to 
work off past sins that, in part, would have kept grinding at Snape- 
that struggle between "this is all my fault" and "if other people hadn't 
done this or that, they wouldn't have made me choose the path I chose". 
We see so many others that Snape isn't kind to- Neville, Hermione, 
Harry, and so many that he disproportionally favor (Malfoy), that it 
seems he's still in grade school picking sides to be on. I think he's 
still playing out his dysfunctional home he grew up in, one that he 
never really left.

Shelley



From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Aug  6 04:59:03 2013
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 22:59:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
 would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <CAPyU+0OuP8iqQgcgkK--QKe_4j0jtCaPsbDWxmZD5zsd6-Eanw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com> <51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com> <02d101ce9173$f2bbbee0$d8333ca0$@com> <51FF12FA.8060006@moosewise.com> <CAPyU+0OuP8iqQgcgkK--QKe_4j0jtCaPsbDWxmZD5zsd6-Eanw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52008297.5070508@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 192496


> Crescent:
> I also think Snape going into Slytherin condemned him in Dumbledore's eyes.
> Remember how the Marauders were always getting away with breaking rules (as
> does Harry, but for very different reasons) and McGonagal and Dumbledore
> always have these rose-colored glasses through which they remember James
> Potter. Add the shrieking shack incident with Sirius setting Snape up to be
> murdered and Dumbeldore doing almost nothing about it except threatening
> Snape not to tell anyone Lupin's secret and you almost see Dumbledore
> pushing him into Voldemort's camp. Why do I say that? Because the leader of
> the light side is basically making it clear that not only can they bully
> Snape, but they can try to murder him as well. If it were me, even if I
> didn't much like Voldemort I might have joined for protection!
Shelley:

I guess I see that incident slightly different- Dumbledore had a very 
real reason for protecting Lupin, and it wasn't for Lupin's sake. There 
were entrances into Hogwarts from the outside, and secret places that 
weren't known to the "general public", and Snape telling others would 
just open up a whole world for the students to search for more of those 
secret places, and in the process, put themselves in danger. (They found 
them anyway, such as the way to the kitchens, the Vanishing Cabinet, the 
tunnel exit to Hogsmead, and the Room of Requirement, and later, the 
entrance to the Chamber of Secrets). The Whomping Willow was a special 
piece of magic that could be used for a great many things, but only if 
it's secret was held by a select few.

Murder, or an attempt to murder, was a very heavy charge that was not 
leveled at the Mauraders, in part because what happened to Snape was of 
his own doing, and in part because someone went to valiant efforts to 
save him the natural consequences of his own actions. No one put Snape 
in harm's way but Snape. But Snape being Snape, he doesn't take 
responsibility for himself, instead, he's got to put blame on others.

I disagree with the Protection theory- in part because the bullying of 
Snape I think extends out to his last day at the school, and his being a 
Death Eater happened while he was at school, so the two overlap, showing 
no protection (or not full protection) from everyday events. Voldemort 
had no desire, and no need, to protect Snape from being teased at 
school. There was nothing in it for him. Instead, Voldemort was much 
more likely to rub Snape's nose in it if would goad Snape into doing 
what he wanted him to do, just as he did to Wormtail.

Shelley




From cresorchid at gmail.com  Tue Aug  6 11:21:50 2013
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 06:21:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
 would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <52007D64.1070006@comcast.net>
References: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com>
	<51FEEE14.7000404@moosewise.com>
	<52007D64.1070006@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0OMh=8CbLMO=gTMZbxHfvUao=mE3Duttx0OPmfEytV3GA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192497

Shelley:
Aunt Petunia's reading of the young Snape was
that he was a nasty boy,

Crescent:
And Petunia raised Harry calling his father, James, a worthless drunk. In
fact, I have yet to hear of anyone that Petunia praised other than her
Duddykins. So while you could be completely correct about Snape's
character, using Petunia to back it up is kind of pointless.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Aug  7 16:53:07 2013
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2013 16:53:07 -0000
Subject: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <ktltig+em6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kttu1j+37me@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192498


> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corey" <coverton1982@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey group, just thought I would post a topic on the group cause the group's been kind of dull, not many messages. But does anyone think that if James, Sirius, Wormtail, and Lupin weren't mean to Snape do you think he would be nicer to Harry?
> > 
> > Corey
> >
ncfan:
> Erm, I'm not so sure myself. If the Marauders were nicer to Snape, but Lily still ended up with James, I feel like Snape still would have been pretty nasty to Harry. Not as nasty, perhaps, but still nasty; Snape's really not a nice person, after all.


Pippin:
Harry wasn't the only Marauder relative. If that's what it really was about, then Tonks and Teddy should have been targets, not to mention that Sirius had scads of cousins, one of whom Snape actually liked. 

No, I think that in his heart of hearts Snape wouldn't have given two knuts who Harry's father was if his mother had been anyone but  Lily. Harry would have been treated with the same cool disdain that most of Snape's students got except when Snape was particularly annoyed with them. But Harry was Lily's son by another man, and I think that even if Lily had chosen someone Snape liked or admired, those feelings would not have survived losing Lily to him.  

 Not that I think the bullying was harmless or only pushed Snape down a path he was going to take anyway. I think it contributed to Snape's tolerance of cruelty and undermined the moral lesson Dumbledore always tried to teach: if Snape could be treated as if his mere existence was a crime, then why should Muggles or Muggleborns be any different?

We don't know that Sirius wasn't punished for the prank, only that he wasn't expelled as Snape thought he deserved to be. We also know that James and Sirius were both punished many times for other transgressions, and it seemed to have no more effect on them than it did on the Weasley twins. 

Snape, IMO, wanted the Marauders expelled to get them out of his hair (and James away from Lily), not reckoning that others would probably take their place. But from Dumbledore's point of view, throwing them out would just remove them from whatever influence he had. Harry sees expulsion as the end of the world, or of his future as a wizard at any rate, but Sirius and James both had means of their own. Except that it would have parted them from Lupin (and Lily) they had no more reason to dread it than Grindelwald did. 

All five, the Marauders and Snape,  were engaged in activities that would have forced Dumbledore's hand if they'd been exposed: the Marauders for being illegal animagi and setting a werewolf loose, Snape for consorting with Death Eaters. A general crackdown on student behavior would have been bad news for all of them.

 As much as Snape believed that Sirius had gotten away with attempted murder,  he had reasons to let the authorities regard the incident as closed. And as much as the Marauders would have liked to stop Snape from spying on them and hexing them whenever he got the chance, they couldn't complain too much without  drawing attention to their own secrets. 

Much of the time Snape saw little reason to be nice to people. But whether Snape was nice or not nice depended on the circumstances: he had a range of behaviors, like most of us. We can see him struggling to find an outlet for his anger that wouldn't alienate him from Lily. He was not at all like Riddle, who never had a friend, or wanted one. 

Pippin









From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Aug 13 03:47:11 2013
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 03:47:11 -0000
Subject: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <SNT147-DS1998E302DEDEC421740577D5520@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <kuca7v+pgea@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192499



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corey" <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:
>
> Hey group, just thought I would post a topic on the group cause the group's been kind of dull, not many messages. But does anyone think that if James, Sirius, Wormtail, and Lupin weren't mean to Snape do you think he would be nicer to Harry?
> 
> Corey
>
Nikkalmati

This is a question with many layers and it calls for some speculation.  First, I am strongly against bullying and I think we know that it can cause horrendous psychological damage  to  a young person, especially when it is ignored by authorities.  Snape came from an unhappy homelife and, unlike Harry, Hogwarts was not a refuge for him.  From the very beginning, he was persecuted by Harry's father and his friends.  We are not given any reason to believe he deserved this other than because he was poor and bright and without protection.  A classic bullying situation.  

Second, I doubt Snape would have been sorted into any house but Slytherin.  Wasn't his mother in Slytherin?  He certainly indicated on the train that he hoped to be placed there, so the encounter with the Mauraders probably made no difference.  If they had not picked on him relentlessly  in school I assume the worst memory would not have happened.  He would not have insulted Lily and presumably he would not have resented the failure of DD to expell Sirius after the Prank.  He and Lily could have remained friends until the end of school.  I cannot see them being romantically involved being in different houses at a time when war was brewing between those same factions, but they could have been friends. 

 (I am not sure what Pippin means that Snape kept quiet about Lupin's condition because he had to conceal that he himnself was consorting with Death Eaters. He was 16 years old.  Do you mean he was consorting with his house mates?  I always thought DD told him he would be expelled, if he revealed the secret.)

The question assums Harry was born, so Lily and James must have gotten married.  Would Snape still have joined Voldemort?  That assumes we know something of why he joined.  If he joined for protection, then of course the bullying of the Mauraders played a key role in that decision.  If you think he joined because he was a mean, nasty person from childhood, then it would not have made a difference.   

He graduated from school at a time when the WW was divided into warring camps.  He had no friends in one of those camps and its leaders had betrayed him.  I doubt that he felt he had much choice as to what group he belonged.  As long as we are discussing choices, the choice he made, the independent choice he made, was to leave LV and to dedicate his life to LV's destruction. 

Nikkalmati      




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 14 21:29:35 2013
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey Overton)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:29:35 -0000
Subject: It would have been nicer if Dudley were nicer to Harry.
Message-ID: <kugsrv+knf1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192500

Hey, does anyone in the group wish that Dudley were nicer to Harry? Do you think Dudley's meanness was more because his parents were like that or was a lot of it was Dudley's fault?

Corey




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Wed Aug 14 22:37:15 2013
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (liz.treky at ntlworld.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 23:37:15 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It would have been nicer if Dudley were nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <kugsrv+knf1@eGroups.com>
References: <kugsrv+knf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AC0B0C38498D49F89EE48A72C5140B68@LizHP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192501

Hey, does anyone in the group wish that Dudley were nicer to Harry? Do you 
think Dudley's meanness was more because his parents were like that or was a 
lot of it was Dudley's fault?

Corey


I think Dudley acted the way he did because, yes, his parents did, but he 
was also expected to act that way, and lastly that he was, in essence, a 
spoilt brat.

The Dursleys didn't want anything to do with Harry, but had no choice. That 
is gonna breed bad atmosphere and he was always bound to be the reason for 
everything going wrong. Dudley was so young when Harry arrived, he would of 
heard constant moaning about Harry, and that 'it was Harry's fault', that 
this became normal behaviour.
Also, consider if Dudley had been nice to Harry for a moment. What do you 
think Petunia and Vernon's reaction would have been? We could speculate that 
Dudley did try to be friendly, but it was easier to be nasty and stay in his 
parents good books.
Lastly, Dudley appears to have been brought up with very little, if any, 
discipline. Kids like that tend to turn into bullies. So this aspect I do 
not believe was Dudley's fault. He even seemed to grow out of it by DH, when 
he told Harry he didn't think him a waste of space.

Liz




From technomad at intergate.com  Thu Aug 15 02:10:10 2013
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:10:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It would have been nicer if Dudley were nicer
	to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <kugsrv+knf1@eGroups.com>
References: <kugsrv+knf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20130814211010.5c5lzwumkaow0cc4@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192502

Quoting Corey Overton <coverton1982 at hotmail.com>:

> Hey, does anyone in the group wish that Dudley were nicer to Harry?   
> Do you think Dudley's meanness was more because his parents were   
> like that or was a lot of it was Dudley's fault?
>
> Corey
>
The way he apparently treats other children makes me think that he'd  
be mean to Harry no matter what.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 15 04:36:04 2013
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (corey)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 23:36:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It would have been nicer if Dudley were nicerto Harry.
In-Reply-To: <20130814211010.5c5lzwumkaow0cc4@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <kugsrv+knf1@eGroups.com> <20130814211010.5c5lzwumkaow0cc4@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <SNT147-DS14FB1BAD2ADEB2FF24FA3D5460@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 192503

>> Corey:
>> Hey, does anyone in the group wish that Dudley were nicer to Harry?
>> Do you think Dudley's meanness was more because his parents were
>> like that or was a lot of it was Dudley's fault?

> Eric:
> The way he apparently treats other children makes me think that he'd
> be mean to Harry no matter what.


Corey:
Yeah, you both have a good point. Dudley was meaner to other kids. And
let's not forget he had a gang of his own. I wonder how Dudley would
have done at Hogwarts if the Dursleys would have let him attend.



From victoriaangelhpfan at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 17 21:40:27 2013
From: victoriaangelhpfan at yahoo.com (Victoriaangel)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 21:40:27 -0000
Subject: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <kocpn7+q75g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kuoqkb+fke8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192504



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
>
> Hi all.
> An oldish controversy this, but one Jo Rowling has not fully clarified from what she wrote in the final book.
> 
> In the written text at the Battle of Hogwarts whilst fighting bravely Lavender Brown fell from a balcony and as she lay injured was then attacked by Fenrir Greyback, but thankfully and a little ironically Hermione Granger seeing what happened blasted him off of her former love rival with a spell. When last 'reported' by Jo she was known to be still alive, but injured, perhaps seriously. That's the 'canon' position anyway.
> 
> However, in the final movie Steve Kloves, the screenwriter took it upon himself to 'kill her off' and we see her dead body being covered up. :o(
> 
> However, as we all know the final part (DH2) was very different from what Jo wrote, indeed whilst in many ways a brilliant 'action movie' it had very little to do with the book events in many places. Personally after the dragon escape from Gringotts I feel it becomes so AU (Alternate Univere) it has little at all to do with any Potter story I know and is an utter 'dogs breakfast' or at best a 'Curate's Egg' as we Brits say. :o(
> 
> Events and their settings were changed for no particular reason other than perhaps to help with the 'cinematic flow' and several other 'non canon' scenes and events were invented. Don't get me wrong, some of these 'rewrites' were very good and one scene/piece of dialogue almost goes so far as to redeem the whole as far as I am concerned. That is the part where Neville Longbottom stands at the end of the boobytrapped bridge and taunts Scaboir and his horde of Death Eaters with his now famous "You and who's army?" line. Brilliant stuff and hilarious. :o)
> 
> Indeed in some ways Neville comes out of this film having the best scenes and dialogue, his defiant speech to Voldemort, his killing the snake and, (for me, since it is my favourite non canon 'ship'), his declaration that he is "mad for" Luna Lovegood all go together to suggest that possibly the prophecy was wrong and in fact it needed both Neville and Harry working together to defeat the Dark Lord.
> 
> Anyway, enough of that, do I hear what about the fate of Lavender Brown and why do you care so much?
> 
> Several reasons, I firstly came to relate to her when she sadly lost Binky, her pet rabbit who she'd had to leave at her family home while at Hogwarts and who died, I felt so sorry for her. Secondly because the Trio treated her so badly during her frantic infatuation with 'Won Won', for which her lack of self control was simply down to raging hormones and the intensity of first love, she simply couldn't help herself. Thirdly in the way she gained Ron as her boyfriend she in fact showed why she was placed in Gryffindor, despite superficially being nothing but a gossip machine and fashion victim. In fact she saw what she wanted (Ron) and had the self confidence and courage to 'go for it', that being a very typical Gryffindor trait. And by the way she didn't 'steal' Ron from Hermione as some think, because at the time they weren't even a romantic couple.
> 
> Lavender 'disappears off the radar' for a while in the later books but  makes a brave return at the Battle of Hogwarts. She had been hiding out in the Room of Requirement with the rest of the DA and other oppressed pupils and had been helping the injured and frightened youngsters, then in the Battle she fights bravely, once again showing her Gryffindor courage, until sadly she is hurt as I described above.
> 
> So now to the question I posed, what happened next? Did she live, die or live and become a werewolf. As I said JKR left it undefined. The werewolf idea is one many accept as right, since in the description of the attack on her by Fenrir Greyback he is described by onlookers as  being a 'grey blur' who leaps on her and begins to maul her. Does this mean he was transformed to his werewolf form or simply moved very fast? If he was transformed she might well become a werewolf, or like Bill Weasley, another of Greyback's victims, simply acquire some scars and a few 'wolfish traits' such as a liking for virtually raw meat.
> 
> Then again if Greyback was not in werewolf form then she might simply have some scars and also injuries from her fall needing curing by Poppy and her volunteer helpers, then gone on to live a fairly 'normal' witch's life.
> 
> The other option is of course that she simply died after succumbing to her injuries, as Steve Kloves seems to think and wrote into the screenplay.
> 
> As to me I tend to go with the werewolf option and I love her dearly as a character almost as much as she loved 'Won Won', because the werewolf Lavender Brown is such a great heroine post war in many superb fan fiction stories. Several excellent examples of note being written by an incredible fan author (pen name Northumbrian), who is a fellow Brit and a very canon and skilled writer, fully professional in standard and with a JKR type eye for detail and very prolific. Part of his very extensive output, (which like Jo's own work builds into a huge integrated story), relates tales of Lavender's brave struggle back to full fitness post Battle and her then career as the Auror Office's 'werewolf expert in residence'. Northumbrian also goes into her love life post battle, pairing her with an incredibly good character of his own invention, one every bit as good, detailed and well rounded as any of Jo's, a Scottish wizarding law officer called Mark Moon. The stories of their adventures and romance together are utterly brilliant.
> 
> Another superb fan writer is an American, (pen name sarcastrow), who has a similar take on Lavender Brown post war and has written several excellent stories about her as well. I would recommend everyone who doesn't know these two writers works to try searching their profiles on the several fan fiction websites or look at their LiveJournal profile pages for lists and details of their online tales. Also for that matter many other amateur writers (like myself) have also featured the lovely Lavender in their stories. :o)
> 
> So there yer go, that's my 'take' on Lavender Brown and her fate at the Battle.
> 
> So what do you think? Live, dead or werewolf why not let me know what you believe?
> 
> Many Blessings All.
> John, (Oriondruid)
>


Amen, I agree. I think that Lavender Brown is still very much alive even if she does change into a rather large wolf every month. I don't like the filmmakers decision to kill her off. Doesn't work as well. In JK's implied future, I think seeing Lavender Brown as an Auror would be a huge boast of confidence not only to herself but also for the rest of the wizarding world. It would bring down the barriers of prejudice against werewolves. She may even be the "face" of The Remus Lupin Foundation that ensures all werewolves receive social security benefits and more importantly, a monthly brewed batch of Wolfsbane potion. 

I think that Hermione missed the point of why Lavender was interested in Ron. Not only was she attracted to Ron but as she is a pureblood, as per tradition, she was looking at marriage. For us Muggles, that sounds rather early to get married (though us Brits know the law allows muggle teens to get married at 16 years old with parental permission) but things are different in the wizarding world. Red-Hen was the first to realise this. Wizard-raised teenagers who are in their late teens and ending school start to look for potential partners at this stage. Wizards have extended lifespans to muggles so childhood is a relatively small section of time for wizards. They look for partners - in true Darwin style, it will most likely be those with strong magical lines to continue the next healthy generation. No wonder Lucius and Narcissa had a semi-arranged marriage by the looks of things. They did fall in love with each other of course - while at school, make respectable marriages (arranged or a love match or both - very Victorian themed there. The wizards are lagging behind Muggles in many ways. The tradition of arranged marriage continues though I can sense that Kingsley will make sure the law is up to date and that any brides to be have a personal choice instead of being forced into it)by their mid-20's and have children (on average, no more than five I would say. Purebloods at the top of society may have less i.e. one male heir like Draco whereas others lower in the hierarchy such as Weasley's and Goshawk families have maybe no more than ten children - with eldest male heir i.e. Bill Weasley receiving any family inheritance - who go off to further reproduce with either strong magical blood ties or good social connections)and begin playing happy families. Most witches stay at home at raise the children for at least seventeen years until they have all left the nest. While the children have attended Hogwarts, some witches may have time to start training for their jobs. Then, they can begin the "real work" and enjoy their long adult lives. A likely case would be Madame Marchbanks. Some witches may go into politics or be the "power behind the throne" as in the case of Madame Malfoy. This may sound sexist but it is not. It's an alternative way to how the muggles have their feminism. Witches do indeed have their sense of empowerment though there have been cases like Merope Gaunt that means that a charitable organisation like The Society of Distressed Witches is fully justifiable. In short, Lavender Brown is doing what she is supposed to do and how she has likely been raised by her own mother and instructed what to do. Choosing a Weasley may be socially embarrassing but it would ensure that any children they have would have strong magical lines. Sadly, for Lavender, a muggleborn by the name of Hermione Granger beat her to the punch and went on to have very strong magical children (muggleborn + pureblood = hybrid vigour i.e. Voldemort's power potentially depending on the genes that combine at conception. Rose and Hugo are witches and wizards that nobody wants to get on the wrong side of. Especially any Malfoy-haters in the former's case.)

Thanks, 

Victoria x




From lynde4 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 18 02:07:20 2013
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 19:07:20 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
 would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <kuca7v+pgea@eGroups.com>
References: <SNT147-DS1998E302DEDEC421740577D5520@phx.gbl>
	<kuca7v+pgea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iPdVNTEjuq-CZc3-Wg=QunVLOaX4bV8wwHL=uvw02rrKw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192505

> > Corey:
> > Hey group, just thought I would post a topic on the group cause the
> group's been kind of dull, not many messages. But does anyone think
that if James, Sirius, Wormtail, and Lupin weren't mean to Snape do
you think he would be nicer to Harry?
> >
> >
> Nikkalmati:
> <snip> Second, I doubt Snape would have been sorted into any house but Slytherin.  Wasn't his mother in Slytherin? He certainly indicated
in the train that he hoped to be placed there, so the encounter with
the Mauraders probably made no difference. If they had not picked on
him relentlessly in school I assume the worst memory would not have
> happened. <snip>


Lynda:
I think from Snape's own behavior on the train to Hogwarts and even before,
he wasn't a very nice boy. It's pretty clear to me that he had made his
choice for Slytherin long before stepping foot on the Hogwarts Express that
first day. Not that that gives James Potter and Sirius a pass for the way
they treated him. It doesn't.

Lynda



From lynde4 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 18 02:08:27 2013
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 19:08:27 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It would have been nicer if Dudley were nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <kugsrv+knf1@eGroups.com>
References: <kugsrv+knf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iNmSQzXnjUj2vioefqyQTzmGS46e3fHsdQC-=71=iU16g@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192506

> Corey:
> Hey, does anyone in the group wish that Dudley were nicer to Harry? Do you
> think Dudley's meanness was more because his parents were like that or was
> a lot of it was Dudley's fault?


Lynda:
Sure, I wish that Dudley had been nicer to Harry. But he was as much a
victim of his parents as Harry was.

Lynda




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Sun Aug 18 04:01:45 2013
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 04:01:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape
 would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <CAPyU+0OMh=8CbLMO=gTMZbxHfvUao=mE3Duttx0OPmfEytV3GA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1907458980.137551.1376798505112.JavaMail.root@sz0026a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 192507

Shelley: 
Aunt Petunia's reading of the young Snape was 
that he was a nasty boy, 

Crescent: 
And Petunia raised Harry calling his father, James, a worthless drunk. In 
fact, I have yet to hear of anyone that Petunia praised other than her 
Duddykins. So while you could be completely correct about Snape's 
character, using Petunia to back it up is kind of pointless. 

Shelley again: 
Except that we don't only have that opinion from the adult Petunia- we have Snape being mean to Petunia from Snape's own memory, and that memory didn't lie that he was mean to her, at a time when she wasn't being mean to him. She was a very young child at the time of that memory, and not the nasty adult you see her being through Harry's eyes later on. And Snape was a young child in that memory, one who didn't have very good social skills. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Aug 19 15:44:27 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 11:44:27 -0400
Subject: Ron, the chess player...
Message-ID: <52123D5B.5070602@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192508

     Ron, in SS/PS, is depicted as a chess player good enough to solve a 
chess puzzle designed to stop people far his senior. Yet, this talent 
conveniently disappears for the rest of the series; one would think that 
Ron would be, at the very least, good at strategy and tactics. One key 
to winning at muggle chess is the ability to visualize at least 3 moves 
ahead (some experts claim that 3 moves ahead is all that is normally 
necessary). Concentrating on this would have boosted Ron to being more 
than the morale booster (the id part of the superego/ego/id trio made up 
of Hermione, Harry and Ron, respectively, or, if you will, the Dr. McCoy 
of the Spock/Kirk/McCoy trio).

     Bart




From alcuinyork at ymail.com  Mon Aug 19 16:32:31 2013
From: alcuinyork at ymail.com (Alcuin York)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron, the chess player...
In-Reply-To: <52123D5B.5070602@moosewise.com>
References: <52123D5B.5070602@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <1376929951.37413.YahooMailNeo@web125305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192509

Bart:

Ron, in SS/PS, is depicted as a chess player good enough to solve a?

chess puzzle designed to stop people far his senior. Yet, this talent 
conveniently disappears for the rest of the series; one would think that 
Ron would be, at the very least, good at strategy and tactics. One key 
to winning at muggle chess is the ability to visualize at least 3 moves 
ahead (some experts claim that 3 moves ahead is all that is normally 
necessary). Concentrating on this would have boosted Ron to being more 
than the morale booster (the id part of the superego/ego/id trio made up 
of Hermione, Harry and Ron, respectively, or, if you will, the Dr. McCoy 
of the Spock/Kirk/McCoy trio).

Me:
I don't think it disappears, as Ron is shown handily beating both Harry and Hermione at chess on several occasions in subsequent books (although I can't think of any specific instances at the moment). I also don't think that skill at chess implies skill at anything else. I've known people who were fantastic chess players yet not particularly bright when it came to other areas, and vice versa. Chess is its own thing, and certain, otherwise pretty average, individuals just "get it" in a way that even super-brilliant people don't.
-Chris

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Aug 24 14:14:09 2013
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 14:14:09 -0000
Subject: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <kuca7v+pgea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192510



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:

> >
> Nikkalmati
> snip<
> 
>  (I am not sure what Pippin means that Snape kept quiet about Lupin's condition because he had to conceal that he himnself was consorting with Death Eaters. He was 16 years old.  Do you mean he was consorting with his house mates?  I always thought DD told him he would be expelled, if he revealed the secret.)
> 



Pippin:
That may be. But Snape also suspected the Marauders of sneaking out of school at night, and he wasn't told to keep quiet about that.  He could have kept trying to prove that the Marauders were rule breaking. Instead, according to Lupin, James's issue was that Snape was hexing James every chance he got.

I agree that Voldemort would have no use for a bunch of half-trained hotheads scribbling "Death Eaters Rule" on the chalkboards and aimlessly attacking Muggleborns. It does not follow that he would have no interest in grooming Slytherins to be Death Eaters. Since Voldemort intended  to live forever, he had to think about where his future servants were coming from. Snape and his housemates would  soon be fully qualified wizards, free of The Trace and adult supervision. It would be convenient  if their loyalties could be won while  they were still impressionable, still under one roof, and still thought to be of too little consequence to protect.

Voldemort also always tried to collect the scions of rich and influential pure blood families, and there were people like that in Snape's circle, some of whom had older relatives who'd been collected already.

None of this proves that Snape was knowingly associating with Death Eaters at the time. But his world was at war; he would not have found it easy to sit on the sidelines hoping the right side would win, and he would not have had any doubts about which side was the right one -- it would be the one his friends and their families supported.

The question is, what made Snape choose those people as friends? Lily couldn't understand it, and yet she knew  the unpleasant side of Snape's personality well enough.

I don't think it was coincidence that Snape's gang of Slytherins nearly all became Death Eaters. I think it likely that Lucius and others were keeping an eye out for the sort of student Slughorn would have no time for. Snape was visibly one of those.

We know that Snape was secretly inventing some nasty curses -- if that had become known, Lily wouldn't have been the only one to guess that he was planning to join the Death Eaters. And even a guess was enough to get people  in trouble. But it didn't become known, so my guess is Snape was keeping his head down, and avoiding anything that might bring him to  the attention of the school authorities, such as complaining to them about James. 



Nikkalmati:
> The question assums Harry was born, so Lily and James must have gotten married.  Would Snape still have joined Voldemort?  That assumes we know something of why he joined.  If he joined for protection, then of course the bullying of the Mauraders played a key role in that decision.  If you think he joined because he was a mean, nasty person from childhood, then it would not have made a difference.   



Pippin:

I think the situation between Sirius and Kreacher helps to explain things. Sirius's bullying didn't force Kreacher to defect, nor can we say that Kreacher wouldn't have defected with out It. But it definitely made joining Narcissa and Bellatrix look a lot more attractive than it would have otherwise. The same might be said of Snape and his choice of friends.  

But then what?


If Snape hadn't joined Voldemort, would Harry be alive at all? Even without the prophecy, Voldemort wouldn't have let James and Lily defy him forever. As Dumbledore tells Harry, the consequences of our actions are so complex and various that predicting the future is a difficult business. Or to put it another way, JKR's books are so tightly plotted that trying to change one consequence of an event is almost impossible.

Pippin
 





From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Sat Aug 24 17:55:42 2013
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (liz.treky at ntlworld.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 18:55:42 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups]
In-Reply-To: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com>
References: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B70A5B7CA188482B9D6CB8BBFB5239FC@LizHP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192511

I'm just rereading ps/ss and have a couple of thoughts about the beginning 
of chapter 5 - Diagon Alley

Hagrid commented that Quirrell was fine when he taught from books, but when 
he took a year out he came back scared of his own shadow. This implies that 
Quirrell taught DADA at some point before Harry's first year. And that 
Hagrid had socialised enough with him after he came back from Romania (I 
think it was there!) to know how different he was, and how scared he had 
become. But isn't the DADA job cursed? Nobody lasts in it longer than a 
year?

Liz 




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Sat Aug 24 18:45:48 2013
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (liz.treky at ntlworld.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 19:45:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <B70A5B7CA188482B9D6CB8BBFB5239FC@LizHP>
References: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com> <B70A5B7CA188482B9D6CB8BBFB5239FC@LizHP>
Message-ID: <3B77D0F1DF2E49BC8EE55CAAC7FACF00@LizHP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192512

Sorry, just realised I hadn't put a title!

Also, to state that Hagrid said Quirrell was scared of the students, which 
implies he had been teaching AFTER he came back.

Liz

-----Original Message----- 
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 6:55 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups]

I'm just rereading ps/ss and have a couple of thoughts about the beginning
of chapter 5 - Diagon Alley

Hagrid commented that Quirrell was fine when he taught from books, but when
he took a year out he came back scared of his own shadow. This implies that
Quirrell taught DADA at some point before Harry's first year. And that
Hagrid had socialised enough with him after he came back from Romania (I
think it was there!) to know how different he was, and how scared he had
become. But isn't the DADA job cursed? Nobody lasts in it longer than a
year?

Liz



------------------------------------

Apparate, walk or fly into the magic of Harry Potter at Ascendio, the 8th 
fan-event by HPEF, at the Portofino Bay Resort at Universal Orlando, July 
12 - 15, 2012 http://www.hp2012.org http://twitter.com/HPEF





Yahoo! Groups Links






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Aug 25 17:01:57 2013
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 25 Aug 2013 17:01:57 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/25/2013, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1377450117.9.8936.m9@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192513

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From alcuinyork at ymail.com  Sun Aug 25 15:19:33 2013
From: alcuinyork at ymail.com (Alcuin York)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 08:19:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <3B77D0F1DF2E49BC8EE55CAAC7FACF00@LizHP>
References: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com> <B70A5B7CA188482B9D6CB8BBFB5239FC@LizHP> <3B77D0F1DF2E49BC8EE55CAAC7FACF00@LizHP>
Message-ID: <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192514

Also, to state that Hagrid said Quirrell was scared of the students, which?

implies he had been teaching AFTER he came back.

Liz

I'm just rereading ps/ss and have a couple of thoughts about the beginning
of chapter 5 - Diagon Alley

Hagrid commented that Quirrell was fine when he taught from books, but when
he took a year out he came back scared of his own shadow. This implies that
Quirrell taught DADA at some point before Harry's first year. And that
Hagrid had socialised enough with him after he came back from Romania (I
think it was there!) to know how different he was, and how scared he had
become. But isn't the DADA job cursed? Nobody lasts in it longer than a
year?

Liz

* * * * *
First possibility: Quirrell taught some other subject before his hiatus and was assigned to the DADA job when he returned (not very plausible, but I don't think it's inconsistent with the text, which I don't have in front of me right now).

Second possibility: The DADA curse was something JKR thought of after PS/SS. Wouldn't be the only thing either, as Quirrell is shown doing wandless magic, which makes nonsense of Dumbledore's death scene in HBP.

-Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Aug 25 22:28:36 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 22:28:36 -0000
Subject: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192515

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alcuin York <alcuinyork at ...> wrote:

Liz:
> I'm just rereading ps/ss and have a couple of thoughts about the beginning
> of chapter 5 - Diagon Alley
> 
> Hagrid commented that Quirrell was fine when he taught from books, but when
> he took a year out he came back scared of his own shadow. This implies that
> Quirrell taught DADA at some point before Harry's first year. And that
> Hagrid had socialised enough with him after he came back from Romania (I
> think it was there!) to know how different he was, and how scared he had
> become. But isn't the DADA job cursed? Nobody lasts in it longer than a
> year?

> Also, to state that Hagrid said Quirrell was scared of the students, which? 
> implies he had been teaching AFTER he came back.
 
Chris:
> First possibility: Quirrell taught some other subject before his hiatus and was assigned to the DADA job when he returned (not very plausible, but I don't think it's inconsistent with the text, which I don't have in front of me right now).
> 
> Second possibility: The DADA curse was something JKR thought of after PS/SS. Wouldn't be the only thing either, as Quirrell is shown doing wandless magic, which makes nonsense of Dumbledore's death scene in HBP.

Geoff:
THere is a possibility as you suggest that Quirrell taught a different subject
before his year out, although Hagrid says that he took "took a year off ter get 
some first-hand experience.." (PS "Diagon Alley"p.55 UK edition). This does
allow for different interpretations.

I would put forward three scenarios:

(1) The above - that he taught a different subject and took up the DADA 
post on his return.

(2) Possibly I'm playing with semantics, but perhaps he left the post to travel 
and then on his return was appointed for a "second term", so to speak, which 
would not breach the idea that no DADA teacher would be in post for more 
than a year.

(3) That when he met Voldemort and he was possessed by him, Voldemort 
saw  that, in addition to being a vehicle for him to get around, he could be a 
Trojan Horse to get him into Hogwarts and being at the school in person
could remove the curse to allow Quirrell to stay there and thereby make a 
move to deal with Harry.

I'm sorry, Chris, but I don't quite see your point re wandless magic...







From alcuinyork at ymail.com  Sun Aug 25 23:14:47 2013
From: alcuinyork at ymail.com (Alcuin York)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 16:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com>
References: <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1377472487.97489.YahooMailNeo@web125301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192516

Geoff:

I'm sorry, Chris, but I don't quite see your point re wandless magic...

Me:
The point being that some of JKR's ideas seem to have developed after writing PS/SS, so that certain things in that book contradict what comes later. While it's pretty clear later on that spells can't be cast without a wand, Quirrell does just that at the end of PS/SS: he merely snaps his fingers and thereby casts an Incarcerous?jinx on Harry. Why couldn't Dumbledore have done exactly that to Malfoy after he had been disarmed on the Astronomy tower? The only reason I can think of is that, by then, JKR had decided that casting spells without a wand can't be done, which is why Dumbledore was helpless in that situation. Likewise, my suggestion that the DADA curse might have been an idea that she came up with after PS/SS, and so when writing that book she didn't see any issue in having Quirrell teach it for a second year.

Chris




From lynde4 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 00:25:10 2013
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 17:25:10 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron, the chess player...
In-Reply-To: <52123D5B.5070602@moosewise.com>
References: <52123D5B.5070602@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iOVtFW_PRm6o6B-gz28HOb35Zjb3jtrNvVV4ML00-D2GA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192517

> Bart:
> Ron, in SS/PS, is depicted as a chess player good enough to solve a
> chess puzzle designed to stop people far his senior. Yet, this talent
> conveniently disappears for the rest of the series; one would think
> that Ron would be, at the very least, good at strategy and tactics.
<snip>


His skill doesn't disappear. His ability at chess is mentioned
throughout the series and he and Harry play fairly often.

Lynda




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Aug 26 05:04:29 2013
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 05:04:29 -0000
Subject: If the Marauders weren't so mean to Snape would he have been nicer to Harry.
In-Reply-To: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kvenkt+emc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192518



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
>> 
> > >
> > Nikkalmati
> > snip<
> > 
> >  (I am not sure what Pippin means that Snape kept quiet about Lupin's condition because he had to conceal that he himnself was consorting with Death Eaters. He was 16 years old.  Do you mean he was consorting with his house mates?  I always thought DD told him he would be expelled, if he revealed the secret.)
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> That may be. But Snape also suspected the Marauders of sneaking out of school at night, and he wasn't told to keep quiet about that.  He could have kept trying to prove that the Marauders were rule breaking. Instead, according to Lupin, James's issue was that Snape was hexing James every chance he got.

Nikkalmati

We are speculating here because the author does not give us a lot of information to work with.  If Snape was told to keep quiet about the Prank to keep secret Lupin's condition, any attempt to prove the Marauders were sneaking out would be covered too.  If DD talked to him, Snape must have voiced his suspicions to DD without success. What good would it be to follow them when the authorities were not willing to listen?  It was always possible that James enforced silence on Snape as payment for a life debt,  also.  Note that when Lily refered to James' having saved Snape, he does not give her his side of the story, so he must have been restrained in some way.  DD also is perfectly aware of what Snape means when Snape accuses Sirius in POA of being "capable of murder at 16."   Where does Lupin say Snape was hexing James after the Prank?  I thought Lupin said the opposite - that James never stopped hexing Snape (thought Lily thought he did).

Nikkalmati


> Pippin
>snip>
 Voldemort also always tried to collect the scions of rich and influential pure blood families, and there were people like that in Snape's circle, some of whom had older relatives who'd been collected already.
> 
> None of this proves that Snape was knowingly associating with Death Eaters at the time. But his world was at war; he would not have found it easy to sit on the sidelines hoping the right side would win, and he would not have had any doubts about which side was the right one -- it would be the one his friends and their families supported.
> 
> The question is, what made Snape choose those people as friends? Lily couldn't understand it, and yet she knew  the unpleasant side of Snape's personality well enough.
> 
> I don't think it was coincidence that Snape's gang of Slytherins nearly all became Death Eaters. I think it likely that Lucius and others were keeping an eye out for the sort of student Slughorn would have no time for. Snape was visibly one of those.
> 
> We know that Snape was secretly inventing some nasty curses -- if that had become known, Lily wouldn't have been the only one to guess that he was planning to join the Death Eaters. And even a guess was enough to get people  in trouble. But it didn't become known, so my guess is Snape was keeping his head down, and avoiding anything that might bring him to  the attention of the school authorities, such as complaining to them about James. 
> 

Nikkalmati

I certainly agree that many of the Slytherins at that time were from DE families and many supported LV in school and joined later.  Snape had very little choice but to hang out with these people, especially after he broke up with Lily. Even in Harry's time the students associated primarily with members of their own house.  However, that doesn't mean SS would not complain about Sirius and the Prank to the Headmaster and we see that DD knew about Snape's complaints years later.  I doubt Snape would keep quiet so that his associations with members of his own house would not be known.  Everybody knew who he hung out with. I also doubt his potions book would have been confiscated and read if he complained.  He did not complain about James' bullying for the same reasons victims never complain.  First, the authorities won't do anything about it anyway, and second, it would violate that unwritten code that teenagers still follow and brand him as some kind of a "wuss."

BTW I have always wondered, if SS was suspected to be a junior DE (and rightfully so), why did DD let him go when his brother caught SS in the Hog's Head listening to the Prophecy?   

Nikkalmati

>





From ddankanyin at cox.net  Mon Aug 26 21:20:53 2013
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (Dorothy Dankanyin)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 17:20:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <HBWz1m00f2qRHte01BXAgh>
References: <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com> <HBWz1m00f2qRHte01BXAgh>
Message-ID: <521BC6B5.5030705@cox.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 192519

On 8/25/2013 7:14 PM, Alcuin York wrote:
>
> Geoff:
>
> I'm sorry, Chris, but I don't quite see your point re wandless magic...
>
> Me:
> The point being that some of JKR's ideas seem to have developed after 
> writing PS/SS, so that certain things in that book contradict what 
> comes later. While it's pretty clear later on that spells can't be 
> cast without a wand, Quirrell does just that at the end of PS/SS: he 
> merely snaps his fingers and thereby casts an Incarcerous jinx on 
> Harry. Why couldn't Dumbledore have done exactly that to Malfoy after 
> he had been disarmed on the Astronomy tower? The only reason I can 
> think of is that, by then, JKR had decided that casting spells without 
> a wand can't be done, which is why Dumbledore was helpless in that 
> situation. Likewise, my suggestion that the DADA curse might have been 
> an idea that she came up with after PS/SS, and so when writing that 
> book she didn't see any issue in having Quirrell teach it for a second 
> year.
>
> Chris,
>
        It's my understanding that Dumbledore wasn't helpless on the 
Astronomy tower, he was trying to get Malfoy to understand that he 
wasn't a killer.  Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him, just to make 
sure Malfoy didn't end up being one.
     Dorothy
>
>
> __._,_._



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Aug 26 21:41:12 2013
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 15:41:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com> <B70A5B7CA188482B9D6CB8BBFB5239FC@LizHP> <3B77D0F1DF2E49BC8EE55CAAC7FACF00@LizHP> <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <521BCB78.1080507@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 192520

On 8/25/2013 9:19 AM, Alcuin York wrote:
> <Snip> But isn't the DADA job cursed? Nobody lasts in it longer than a
> year?
>
> Liz
>
> * * * * *
> First possibility: Quirrell taught some other subject before his hiatus and was assigned to the DADA job when he returned (not very plausible, but I don't think it's inconsistent with the text, which I don't have in front of me right now).
>
> Second possibility: The DADA curse was something JKR thought of after PS/SS. Wouldn't be the only thing either, as Quirrell is shown doing wandless magic, which makes nonsense of Dumbledore's death scene in HBP.
>
> -Chris
It strikes me that a curse had to "start" someplace. It could have been 
he had the job of DADA before, and came back to it, and his return 
marked that "first year, didn't return" trend that the students called a 
curse. From Quirrel's return and  afterward, they never had a repeating 
teacher for that class. That would be my best guess.

Shelley



From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Aug 26 22:04:41 2013
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 16:04:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <521BC6B5.5030705@cox.net>
References: <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com> <HBWz1m00f2qRHte01BXAgh> <521BC6B5.5030705@cox.net>
Message-ID: <521BD0F9.3000601@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 192521

On 8/26/2013 3:20 PM, Dorothy Dankanyin wrote:
> On 8/25/2013 7:14 PM, Alcuin York wrote:
>> Geoff:
>>
>> I'm sorry, Chris, but I don't quite see your point re wandless magic...
>>
>> Me:
>> The point being that some of JKR's ideas seem to have developed after
>> writing PS/SS, so that certain things in that book contradict what
>> comes later. While it's pretty clear later on that spells can't be
>> cast without a wand, Quirrell does just that at the end of PS/SS: he
>> merely snaps his fingers and thereby casts an Incarcerous jinx on
>> Harry. Why couldn't Dumbledore have done exactly that to Malfoy after
>> he had been disarmed on the Astronomy tower? The only reason I can
>> think of is that, by then, JKR had decided that casting spells without
>> a wand can't be done, which is why Dumbledore was helpless in that
>> situation. Likewise, my suggestion that the DADA curse might have been
>> an idea that she came up with after PS/SS, and so when writing that
>> book she didn't see any issue in having Quirrell teach it for a second
>> year.
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>          It's my understanding that Dumbledore wasn't helpless on the
> Astronomy tower, he was trying to get Malfoy to understand that he
> wasn't a killer.  Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him, just to make
> sure Malfoy didn't end up being one.
>       Dorothy
My reading of the tower is the same as Dorothy's- it's not that 
Dumbledore couldn't do wandless magic, it's that he purposely chose NOT 
TO. Remember, what he was controlling was who would gain control of that 
Elder Wand- which is why he told Snape he had to be the one to kill him 
(and not Malfoy). Had Malfoy actually tried to kill him, he would have 
defended himself to prevent Malfoy from succeeding, but he would not 
defend himself from Snape because he had prearranged for Snape to 
succeed. Dumbledore was FAR from helpless!

Chris, I do think you are right about wandless magic- it seems to be a 
slight inconsistency through the book, used for "convience" when Rowling 
wants to display it, and seemingly impossible otherwise. All kids are 
taught to use a wand, but when they are able to use magic without a wand 
preHogwarts, it's not explained. (Notice it doesn't show up until the 
later books, but by chronological order, the parent's generation was 
doing it before they entered Hogwarts and had their first wands.) It's 
not the first instance of either purposeful misdirection so we don't 
figure things out too soon, or a change in her mind as to all the rules 
this world had, or an outright mistake. Rowlings admits in fan 
interviews, when writing the 2nd book that she lost track of where 
classrooms were, and so forth, and,  in further books, to using online 
fan guides to remember who-did-what and what-was-were to keep it all 
straight in her head. Her world is richly detailed, and so, frankly, I 
think this is one detail that wandless magic didn't occur to her as a 
possibility until the later books, where she wrote it into the plot.

Shelley





From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Mon Aug 26 22:35:13 2013
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (liz.treky at ntlworld.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 23:35:13 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <521BCB78.1080507@comcast.net>
References: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com> <B70A5B7CA188482B9D6CB8BBFB5239FC@LizHP> <3B77D0F1DF2E49BC8EE55CAAC7FACF00@LizHP> <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <521BCB78.1080507@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4C831598366347A294C4320C92C5EA17@LizHP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192522

On 8/25/2013 9:19 AM, Alcuin York wrote:
> <Snip> But isn't the DADA job cursed? Nobody lasts in it longer than a
> year?
>
> Liz
>
> * * * * *
> First possibility: Quirrell taught some other subject before his hiatus 
> and was assigned to the DADA job when he returned (not very plausible, but 
> I don't think it's inconsistent with the text, which I don't have in front 
> of me right now).
>
> Second possibility: The DADA curse was something JKR thought of after 
> PS/SS. Wouldn't be the only thing either, as Quirrell is shown doing 
> wandless magic, which makes nonsense of Dumbledore's death scene in HBP.
>
> -Chris
It strikes me that a curse had to "start" someplace. It could have been
he had the job of DADA before, and came back to it, and his return
marked that "first year, didn't return" trend that the students called a
curse. From Quirrel's return and  afterward, they never had a repeating
teacher for that class. That would be my best guess.

Shelley

I seem to remember something about Voldy cursing the job when he wasn't 
accepted for it. Was he just out of school? And also, I'm sure Harry was 
told quite early on that the DADA job was cursed. If Quirrell started it, 
then Harry wouldn't have needed to be told!

Liz 




From technomad at intergate.com  Tue Aug 27 00:57:44 2013
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 19:57:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <521BC6B5.5030705@cox.net>
References: <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com> <HBWz1m00f2qRHte01BXAgh>
	<521BC6B5.5030705@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20130826195744.f107e5pshwcw8c44@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192523

Quoting Dorothy Dankanyin <ddankanyin at cox.net>:


>         It's my understanding that Dumbledore wasn't helpless on the
> Astronomy tower, he was trying to get Malfoy to understand that he
> wasn't a killer.  Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him, just to make
> sure Malfoy didn't end up being one.
>      Dorothy


Only by pure luck was Draco not a killer.  The poison mead, the  
necklace...either of those could have ended very badly for the  
victims, even if they werenn't the ones Draco wanted to kill.

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From alcuinyork at ymail.com  Tue Aug 27 00:18:25 2013
From: alcuinyork at ymail.com (Alcuin York)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 17:18:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <4C831598366347A294C4320C92C5EA17@LizHP>
References: <kvaf3h+er88@eGroups.com> <B70A5B7CA188482B9D6CB8BBFB5239FC@LizHP> <3B77D0F1DF2E49BC8EE55CAAC7FACF00@LizHP> <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <521BCB78.1080507@comcast.net> <4C831598366347A294C4320C92C5EA17@LizHP>
Message-ID: <1377562705.35095.YahooMailNeo@web125306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192524

Liz:

I seem to remember something about Voldy cursing the job when he wasn't
accepted for it. Was he just out of school? And also, I'm sure Harry was
told quite early on that the DADA job was cursed. If Quirrell started it,
then Harry wouldn't have needed to be told!

Me:
No, that was a number of years after he was out of school. He worked at Borgin and Burkes immediately after he left Hogwarts, then went on his mysterious hiatus after he killed Hepzibah Smith. When he asked Dumbledore for the job, he was already disfigured by all the horcrux manufacturing he did while in hiding. But that was still before his rise to power, and so long before Quirrell.
IIRC, the only thing said about the DADA job in PS/SS was that Snape wanted it but didn't get it; I don't recall the curse being mentioned until later in the series (but I might be mistaken about that).

Chris



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Aug 27 10:51:21 2013
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 10:51:21 -0000
Subject: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <20130826195744.f107e5pshwcw8c44@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <kvi0b9+jlat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192525



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eric Oppen <technomad at ...> wrote:
>
> Quoting Dorothy Dankanyin <ddankanyin at ...>:
> 
> 
> >         It's my understanding that Dumbledore wasn't helpless on the
> > Astronomy tower, he was trying to get Malfoy to understand that he
> > wasn't a killer.  Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him, just to make
> > sure Malfoy didn't end up being one.
> >      Dorothy
> 
> 
> Only by pure luck was Draco not a killer.  The poison mead, the  
> necklace...either of those could have ended very badly for the  
> victims, even if they werenn't the ones Draco wanted to kill.

Pippin:
It would have taken even more luck for Draco to have succeeded. In both cases the means he chose were both detectable and reversible and the effects wre indeed detected and reversed before they could kill. The implication is that Draco applied less knowledge and skill to the task than he might have because unconsciously he did not want to succeed.

Pippin


> 
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>





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Aug 27 16:18:10 2013
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:18:10 -0000
Subject: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kvijg2+1f5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192526



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alcuin York <alcuinyork@> wrote:
> 
> Liz:
> > I'm just rereading ps/ss and have a couple of thoughts about the beginning
> > of chapter 5 - Diagon Alley
> > 
> > Hagrid commented that Quirrell was fine when he taught from books, but when
> > he took a year out he came back scared of his own shadow. This implies that
> > Quirrell taught DADA at some point before Harry's first year. And that
> > Hagrid had socialised enough with him after he came back from Romania (I
> > think it was there!) to know how different he was, and how scared he had
> > become. But isn't the DADA job cursed? Nobody lasts in it longer than a
> > year?
> 
> > Also, to state that Hagrid said Quirrell was scared of the students, which? 
> > implies he had been teaching AFTER he came back.
>  
> Chris:
> > First possibility: Quirrell taught some other subject before his hiatus and was assigned to the DADA job when he returned (not very plausible, but I don't think it's inconsistent with the text, which I don't have in front of me right now).
> > 
> > Second possibility: The DADA curse was something JKR thought of after PS/SS. Wouldn't be the only thing either, as Quirrell is shown doing wandless magic, which makes nonsense of Dumbledore's death scene in HBP.

> Geoff:
> THere is a possibility as you suggest that Quirrell taught a different subject
> before his year out, although Hagrid says that he took "took a year off ter get 
> some first-hand experience.." (PS "Diagon Alley"p.55 UK edition). This does
> allow for different interpretations.

Pippin:
Quirrell is described as young, so he can't have been teaching before the curse was applied, which seems to have been when Voldemort first returned, about ten years before Harry was born. Like much of JKR's chronology, Voldemort's career is a bit fuzzy: he was sixteen in 1942, vanished a few years after he left school, and reappeared, supposedly ten years later, only it had to be about 1970. Go figure. Wizards may not count differently from other people, but JKR does. 

Anyway...

Maybe Quirrell and Dumbledore  tried to cheat the curse by having Quirrell take a mid-term leave of absence before it could strike at year's end, and maybe that only made it stronger when Quirrell returned. Considering the shape Quirrell was in when he came back and his ultimate fate, Dumbledore could hardly have regarded such an attempt as successful. 

It is disturbing to note that Lupin and Snape also resigned the post uninjured only to be slain after returning to the school. 

There are some instances where JKR's powers of invention clearly outran her ability to keep things straight. Some of them were discussed so often that they got names, like problems in geometry: The Missing 24 Hours, or The Wand Order problem.

But I don't think wandless magic is one of them. 

There are examples all through the books, most prominently the animagus spell, which both Peter and Sirius  perform without a wand. 

Dumbledore could perhaps have summoned his wand, but it wouldn't have been *his* wand unless he then defeated Draco. But that was not his aim. He wanted to appear defenseless, so that Draco would have to discover for himself whether he was a killer or not. 

Pippin







From technomad at intergate.com  Tue Aug 27 18:19:36 2013
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 13:19:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <kvi0b9+jlat@eGroups.com>
References: <kvi0b9+jlat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20130827131936.lcxbwfy880gkcswk@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192527

Quoting pippin_999 <foxmoth at qnet.com>:

>
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eric Oppen <technomad at ...> wrote:

>>
>> Only by pure luck was Draco not a killer.  The poison mead, the
>> necklace...either of those could have ended very badly for the
>> victims, even if they werenn't the ones Draco wanted to kill.
>
> Pippin:
> It would have taken even more luck for Draco to have succeeded. In   
> both cases the means he chose were both detectable and reversible   
> and the effects wre indeed detected and reversed before they could   
> kill. The implication is that Draco applied less knowledge and skill  
>  to the task than he might have because unconsciously he did not  
> want  to succeed.
>
Oh, I don't know.  I thought those plots were up to the finest "Draco  
Malfoy" standard.  Of course, I think the blond pest is a prat  
exceeded only by Joffrey in _Game of Thrones,_ but that's just me.

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From lynde4 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 16:22:18 2013
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 09:22:18 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <521BC6B5.5030705@cox.net>
References: <1377443973.97516.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com>
	<521BC6B5.5030705@cox.net>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iOQMyjDjbPJGTV3nhs5vwOTkJBBY1qsPCXCiEqB0ySo-A@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192528

> Dorothy:
> It's my understanding that Dumbledore wasn't helpless on the
> Astronomy tower, he was trying to get Malfoy to understand that he
> wasn't a killer. Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him, just to make
> sure Malfoy didn't end up being one.


Yeah. That's made clear in later books.

Lynda



From alcuinyork at ymail.com  Tue Aug 27 16:57:07 2013
From: alcuinyork at ymail.com (Alcuin York)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 09:57:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ps/ss chapter 5
In-Reply-To: <kvijg2+1f5g@eGroups.com>
References: <kve0ek+ksal@eGroups.com> <kvijg2+1f5g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1377622627.75738.YahooMailNeo@web125303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192529

Pippin:

There are some instances where JKR's powers of invention clearly outran her ability to keep things straight. Some of them were discussed so often that they got names, like problems in geometry: The Missing 24 Hours, or The Wand Order problem.

But I don't think wandless magic is one of them.

There are examples all through the books, most prominently the animagus spell, which both Peter and Sirius  perform without a wand.?



Me (Chris):

I'm not sure that the animagus transformation is a spell. To become an animagus seems to require casting a spell (apparently a pretty complex one at that), but once that ability has been acquired, then transforming into an animal and back, as far as I can tell, doesn't require a spell, just the decision to do it (kind of like Tonks altering her appearance at will). So while it may be wandless "magic," in the broad sense, I don't see it as wandless spell-casting.

Chris