From webbrl at morris.umn.edu Wed Jan 2 19:40:01 2013 From: webbrl at morris.umn.edu (Rebecca Webb) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:40:01 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Chapter Eighteen: The Goblet of Fire: The Weighi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192298 > > (3) What did you make of Snape's reaction to Hermione's teeth? That he suspected Hermione of helping Harry get his name into the Goblet and was punishing her for endangering him that way. webbrl From puduhepa98 at aol.com Fri Jan 4 03:45:14 2013 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:45:14 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Eighteen: The Goblet of Fire: The Weighing of the Wands In-Reply-To: <50DE9A72.60807@bigpond.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shaun Hately wrote: > > QUESTIONS > > (1) When you first read the book what were your theories or thoughts > about who had put Harry's name into the Goblet? Or why somebody might > have done so? Nikkalmati I didn't suspect Harry, that's for sure, but I really didn't have a theory either. I thought it was possible that DD had done it for some reason, even though he acted shocked. Nikkalmati > > (2) We are told, through Hermione, that Ron is jealous of Harry. What is > your reaction to this revelation? What do you think of Ron's behaviour > towards Harry? Assume for a moment, that Harry had put his name into the > Goblet - would you consider Ron's anger to be justified in that situation? > Nikkalmati I thought that Ron was hurt that Harry would exclude him from his plan. I also am not sure it was really jealousy as much as resentment that Harry got away with anything. I can understand Ron's reaction, but it went on too long. He should have listened to Harry at some point. If Harry had put his name in, yes Ron had a right to be hurt. Nikkalmati > (3) What did you make of Snape's reaction to Hermione's teeth? Did you > consider this was simply a normal part of Snape's overall nastiness or > did it seem to you to be unusually cruel, even for him? > Nikkalmati Yes, it seemed unusually cruel given how sensitive a girl of that age can be - and she looked up to Snape. I don't think it can be excused, but he probably spoke off the top of his head without thinking (stemming from his habit of nastiness) and then could not afford to be seen apologizing. It was over the top. Nikkalmati > (4) Rita Skeeter - what were your impressions of her? Considering that, > by the time of Goblet of Fire, JKR had become a major public figure and > the subject of numerous media pieces, do you think that Rita might tell > us something about JKR's own reaction to certain types of journalism and > journalist? Nikkalmati I would not be surprised to learn that Rita was based on an actual person JKR had met up with. She seemed like a perfect characterization of a slimey journalist, just barely humerous because she is so close to the truth. (Don't trust any of them). Nikkalmati > > (5) The chapter's title is 'The Weighing of the Wands' and we are told > about the characteristics of each of the Champion's wands. As the 'Wand > Chooses the Wizard', do you think this information gives us any insight > into the four champions? > > (For ready reference: > > Fleur Delacour: Rosewood. Nine and a half inches. Inflexible. Contains > the hair of a Veela - Fleur's grandmother. This wand was not made by > Ollivander, but the maker is not named. > > Cedric Diggory: Ash. Twelve and a quarter inches. Pleasantly springy. > Contains a single hair of a particularly fine male unicorn. Made by > Ollivander. > > Viktor Krum: Hornbeam. Ten and a quarter inches, and thicker than > normal. Quite rigid. Contains a dragon heartstring. Made by Gregorovitch. > > Harry Potter: Holly. Eleven inches.Nice and supple. Contains a phoenix > feather from Fawkes - the only other feather Fawkes gave to a wand is > that contained in Voldemort's wand. Made by Ollivander.) > Nikkalmati Yes, I see a connection between the wands' characteristics and the owner. I will not attempt an exposition right now. BTW do we have any thoughts about how LV got a wand with DD's phoenix's feather in it? Were the wands made at the same time? LV presumably was only about 11 when he got the wand and Harry was not even close to being born. How long has DD has that phoenix? Was LV (Tom) already fixated on resurection and eternal existence? Nikkalmati From puduhepa98 at aol.com Fri Jan 4 03:46:31 2013 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:46:31 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Eighteen: The Goblet of Fire: The Weighi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Webb wrote: > > > > > (3) What did you make of Snape's reaction to Hermione's teeth? > > > That he suspected Hermione of helping Harry get his name into the Goblet > and was punishing her for endangering him that way. > > webbrl > Nikkalmati I had not thought of that. That's an interesting possibility. Nikkalmati From vsteck at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 00:03:05 2013 From: vsteck at gmail.com (vanessa steck) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 19:03:05 -0500 Subject: Nagini Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192301 So I'm on facebook and I see a post quoting JKR saying that she was surprised that many people didn't realize that the snake Harry frees in SS is actually Nagini. I'd never heard this before. Has anyone else? I have no idea if that quite is actually JKR. I'd be surprised if that snake was Nagini, because it seemed like a cheery snake...but its also true that we never really get any backstory on the snake. Thoughts? -- *vanessa steck . wild/precious * ?But it is the nature of stars to cross, and never was Shakespeare more wrong than when he has Cassius note, 'The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars / But in ourselves.'there is no shortage of fault to be found amid our stars." --john green From margdean56 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 01:19:55 2013 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 18:19:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nagini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192302 On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 5:03 PM, vanessa steck wrote: > So I'm on facebook and I see a post quoting JKR saying that she was > surprised that many people didn't realize that the snake Harry frees in SS > is actually Nagini. > I'd never heard this before. Has anyone else? I have no idea if that quite > is actually JKR. I'd be surprised if that snake was Nagini, because it > seemed like a cheery snake...but its also true that we never really get any > backstory on the snake. > Thoughts? I don't think that can be right. The snake in the first book is a boa constrictor (it says so right on the label!) whereas Nagini is obviously a poisonous species, though it's never specified which one. --Margaret Dean From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 6 21:13:37 2013 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:13:37 -0000 Subject: Our changing perception of characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192304 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: Annemehr: > Here's another question: over the course of the series, did your opinion change drastically about any of the characters? Geoff: I looked at this question and have finally managed to find time to put fingers to keyboard with my views. I think my initial answer is "Yes, I have changed my views in some cases" but that I believe it was the intention of JKR that we should. One of the things I have remarked on in the past is that Jo Rowling has a surprising handle on the way in which teenaged males think and behave, considering that she does not have a son. In the progression of the books, we largely see events through Harry's eyes as he progresses from the na?ve new pupil of eleven at the opening of PS to the battle- experienced and somewhat world-weary almost eighteen year-old at the end of DH ? the proper end in my opinion. Therefore, we see characters initially through the eyes of a boy in transition from childhood to adolescence and, by the end, to adulthood. One of the delights of JKR's writing has been that I can so easily see myself in him, often making the same sort of mistakes or having bouts of enthusiasm which then fizzle out? and even making an equally big fool of myself at a college ball! One of my headmasters under whom I worked once said to me when we were discussing First Year pupils was "They have not yet lost the magic of childhood". Harry enters the scene as a boy switching to secondary school ? leaving a place, which even if he wasn't happy there, was familiar ? to go into a probably larger and frightening world. Nowadays, most pupils change to senior school at thirteen so that the switch is not so worrying. At that age, for many of us, life was made up of good people and bad people; wearers respectively of symbolically white or black hats. So Harry initially categorises folk he meets into these groups. Ron, Neville and the rest of the dormitory "gang" ? Seamus and Dean ? are in the first list as are Hagrid, Professor Dumbledore and perhaps the redoubtable Professor McGonagall. Into the second group certainly go Snape, Draco and his minders for starters. However, as time goes on, Harry realises, as we all do through those years, that there are no fully white or black hat wearers. Only folk of varying shades of grey. And as time goes on, his view ? and ours as onlookers ? begin to embrace this fact. Perhaps the one person whom you might query is Voldemort who was surely black, but at some point ? perhaps as a tiny child there must have been a flicker of good before his childhood was shattered and his time in the orphanage destroyed any chance to divert him from the desire for revenge which grew within him. But then look at Harry and Draco as mirror images. Harry, supposedly all light: he showed another side with his brashness and stubbornness; his ill -will for Draco; his thoughtless actions; use of Unforgiveables; using a dangerous unknown spell which nearly made him a murderer. And yet ? he turned back at considerable peril to rescue Draco from the fire. Draco, seemingly a sworn enemy of Harry, an opponent of the light: who couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore; who refused to identify Harry at the Manor; who was terrified at Voldemort's casual killing of Charity Burbage. I could go on. Dumbledore is revealed not to be quite so squeaky clean; Harry had begun to wonder whether he had been manipulated, certainly heightened by Aberforth's revelations although I do wonder if it were also that he wanted to keep Harry from following Tom Riddle's example with a similar abused childhood. But the realisation that Horcruxes had come into the equation changed things - Snape's memories of the conversation where Dumbledore seemed almost casual in his agreement with Snape's horrified question that "the boy must die?". And the last enigma I shall consider. Snape. I still find it impossible to like him: the revelations at the end of DH came out of left field, that he had loved Lily do not lessen my anger that he had been so hard on Harry, the innocent recipient of his overarching hate for James. My opinion changed to take on board that he had cause for bitterness but not to the extent he took it. So, yes, my views have changed. But I reiterate that I believe that it has been JKR's intention for this to happen. that we have on several occasions met characters who turned out to be the opposite of our first impression and the point that, as in the real world, we often have to re-evaluate our thoughts about people we know - or think we know. From thedossetts at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 19:11:58 2013 From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 19:11:58 -0000 Subject: Nagini Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Dean wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 5:03 PM, vanessa steck wrote: > > So I'm on facebook and I see a post quoting JKR saying that she was > > surprised that many people didn't realize that the snake Harry frees in SS > > is actually Nagini. > > I'd never heard this before. Has anyone else? I have no idea if that quite > > is actually JKR. I'd be surprised if that snake was Nagini, because it > > seemed like a cheery snake...but its also true that we never really get any > > backstory on the snake. > > Thoughts? > > I don't think that can be right. The snake in the first book is a boa > constrictor (it says so right on the label!) whereas Nagini is > obviously a poisonous species, though it's never specified which one. > > > --Margaret Dean > > Pat here: Years ago I read that JKR intended the snake in SS to be Nagini, but then she heard back from readers that a Boa constrictor squeezes its prey to death, whereas Nagini obviously bites and is poisonous. So - then the snakes became unrelated to each other, the snake from SS in the books to point out Harry's parseltongue ability. I won't guarantee this is true as I no longer have a source for this information, so take it for what it's worth. ~Pat From caattwood at yahoo.com.au Tue Jan 8 21:26:46 2013 From: caattwood at yahoo.com.au (christine attwood) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 13:26:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nagini Message-ID: <1357680406.65513.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192306 That's the first I've heard of it! christine. From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Jan 13 02:48:55 2013 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 02:48:55 -0000 Subject: Our changing perception of characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192308 > Annemehr: > > Here's another question: over the course of the series, did your opinion change drastically about any of the characters? > > Geoff: > I looked at this question and have finally managed to find time to put > fingers to keyboard with my views. I think my initial answer is "Yes, I > have changed my views in some cases" but that I believe it was the > intention of JKR that we should. > > > Therefore, we see characters initially through the eyes of a boy in > transition from childhood to adolescence and, by the end, to adulthood. > Annemehr: The Dursleys were such cut-out characters in the beginning that I was ready to see other characters the same way. By the end of the first book, though, it was apparent that the main characters at least were going to be more three-dimensional, so I think most of us were ahead of Harry in seeing the shades of grey. Of course, we couldn't have seen them if JKR hadn't written them in. So in that sense, I do agree with you. I did wonder if anyone would mention Neville, but my opinion of him was pretty well set by the end of PS/SS. :) Geoff: > However, as time goes on, Harry realises, as we all do through those years, > that there are no fully white or black hat wearers. Only folk of varying shades > of grey. And as time goes on, his view ? and ours as onlookers ? begin to > embrace this fact. Perhaps the one person whom you might query is > Voldemort who was surely black, but at some point ? perhaps as a tiny child > there must have been a flicker of good before his childhood was shattered > and his time in the orphanage destroyed any chance to divert him from the > desire for revenge which grew within him. Annemehr: For this part, I tried to find the book, but I'm not sure where it's got to. I'm sure I recall Mrs. Cole, the director of the muggle orphanage where Tom Riddle grew up, saying that he was a strange baby who never cried. He then went on to kill animals and traumatise children. Mrs. Cole certainly did not seem to be a bad person to me from the little we saw of her. I know Riddle hated the place, and framed Hagrid to avoid being sent back early, but I do think the problem had to be more with him than with the orphanage. It could not have been such a cruel place if at least one child had a pet rabbit, and there were holidays to the seaside. It is Mrs. Cole's description of him in HBP that especially makes me think Voldemort had to be what is commonly called a psychopath or sociopath. It was a *birth defect* and had nothing to do with him choosing good or evil. In fact, I think at this point in the story, my opinion of LV changed from thinking of him as an evil person to a kind of abstraction of evil. As a man born without the ability to love, the evil happend *to him* as much as to anyone else he hurt or killed. I can't blame Harry for treating him as a person who had any free will in the matter, for trying to help him. I just think it was futile. Geoff: > > So, yes, my views have changed. But I reiterate that I believe that it has been > JKR's intention for this to happen. that we have on several occasions met > characters who turned out to be the opposite of our first impression and > the point that, as in the real world, we often have to re-evaluate our thoughts > about people we know - or think we know. > Annemehr: Mostly, yes. But I'm sure it was not her intention for me to get fed up with Lily, or for Alla to despise Dumbledore. ;) From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Jan 15 18:14:39 2013 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 18:14:39 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter Eighteen: The Goblet of Fire: The Weighing of the Wands In-Reply-To: <50DE9A72.60807@bigpond.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shaun Hately wrote: > > QUESTIONS > > (1) When you first read the book what were your theories or thoughts > about who had put Harry's name into the Goblet? Or why somebody might > have done so? Annemehr: I'm sure I didn't suspect anyone in particular at the time, but I do remember noticing that this time, Harry got pulled into "trouble" without doing anything to look for it. I did believe Crouch!Moody's words of the previous chapter, that whoever confunded the powerfully magical Goblet may have been hoping Harry would die, but exactly how that linked back to LV, I didn't know. > > (2) We are told, through Hermione, that Ron is jealous of Harry. What is > your reaction to this revelation? What do you think of Ron's behaviour > towards Harry? Assume for a moment, that Harry had put his name into the > Goblet - would you consider Ron's anger to be justified in that situation? Annemehr: I did have some empathy for Ron, and for how he could be jealous. I can understand if he were suspicious that Harry had entered in secret. BUT, after all they'd been through in the past three years, and how close they were supposed to have become, I was furious with Ron for being so *certain* about it. Especially with Hermione around to talk to. If Harry had put his name in the Goblet, then yes, Ron would have been justified to be angry about it. > > (3) What did you make of Snape's reaction to Hermione's teeth? Did you > consider this was simply a normal part of Snape's overall nastiness or > did it seem to you to be unusually cruel, even for him? Annemehr: For someone who had seen what Snape had in life, I'm not sure he thought it was that big a deal, and it was easily fixed. It was probably part of his overall nastiness combined with the fact that this was one of Harry's friends. > > (4) Rita Skeeter - what were your impressions of her? Considering that, > by the time of Goblet of Fire, JKR had become a major public figure and > the subject of numerous media pieces, do you think that Rita might tell > us something about JKR's own reaction to certain types of journalism and > journalist? Annemehr: I think there are a lot of journalists like that, who make a story into whatever they want it to be. I bet is was personal with JKR as well - there was someone who went through her trash, and someone who talked to her daughter at school, though I don't recall whether that was before GoF or after. > > (5) The chapter's title is 'The Weighing of the Wands' and we are told > about the characteristics of each of the Champion's wands. As the 'Wand > Chooses the Wizard', do you think this information gives us any insight > into the four champions? > > (For ready reference: > > Fleur Delacour: Rosewood. Nine and a half inches. Inflexible. Contains > the hair of a Veela - Fleur's grandmother. This wand was not made by > Ollivander, but the maker is not named. > > Cedric Diggory: Ash. Twelve and a quarter inches. Pleasantly springy. > Contains a single hair of a particularly fine male unicorn. Made by > Ollivander. > > Viktor Krum: Hornbeam. Ten and a quarter inches, and thicker than > normal. Quite rigid. Contains a dragon heartstring. Made by Gregorovitch. > > Harry Potter: Holly. Eleven inches.Nice and supple. Contains a phoenix > feather from Fawkes - the only other feather Fawkes gave to a wand is > that contained in Voldemort's wand. Made by Ollivander.) > Annemehr: One thing I noticed is that only Ollivander's wands were flexible. This was actually something that surprised me in PS/SS because it made me think they would break easily. But I wonder if it says anything about Ollivander's approach to wand-making - whether he sees doing magic as something more intuitive and to be finessed as opposed to powered through. Or whether he thinks there can be a better connection between wand and wizard that way. Other than that, I don't know. I never knew anything about tree symbolism until I saw it much later on this site, and I don't really remember it anymore. I do recall reading that JKR used it, though. I think Fleur's rosewood and veela hair is aesthetically pleasing - it was probably my favorite thing about her at the time. Thank you for the questions, Sean! Annemehr From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Jan 21 23:26:41 2013 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 23:26:41 -0000 Subject: Our changing perception of characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192311 > > Annemehr: > > > Here's another question: over the course of the series, did your > opinion change drastically about any of the characters? > > BIG SNIP > Geoff: > > > > > So, yes, my views have changed. But I reiterate that I believe that it > has been > > JKR's intention for this to happen. that we have on several occasions > met > > characters who turned out to be the opposite of our first impression > and > > the point that, as in the real world, we often have to re-evaluate our > thoughts > > about people we know - or think we know. > > > > Annemehr: > Mostly, yes. But I'm sure it was not her intention for me to get fed up > with Lily, or for Alla to despise Dumbledore. ;) > Nikkalmati JKR does plan to deceive us and to make us think by showing over the course of the story that all the characters have their weaknesses. No one is perfect in her world. In some cases the characters change over time, but in others their true character is revealed with its flaws and weaknesses. In most case4s this is intentional, but I also think she does not always know what the reader will conclude. I was disappointed in Lily after the last scene with Snape, because she had been perceived through the idealized membories of Hagrid, Lupin and Snape. I must add that although she seemed somewhat unfeeling under the circumstances, she alludes to other events which have influenced her decision, and I suspect she and Snape have had this conversation before. But, I was disappointed. (I also question whether one reason she ended up liking James was that he was wealthy. I don't think she came from a well-to-do background and I know her sister Petunia wanted security more than anything else.) I also felt disappointed in Lupin - one of the nice guys. However, part of the reason for disappointment is the strong reaction Harry had to the suggestion Lupin would go with them and leave Tonks and Teddy behind. I think Harry was a bit harsh there. Sirius seemed so friendly towards Harry and so happ-go-lucky that it was impossible not to like him a lot, but I was truly shocked by the events seen in Snape's pensieve and the revelation that Sirius had not changed after his imprisonment. I also was shocked by James' behavior and neither one recovered IMHO. I was not surprised by Snape because I thought where that was going was pretty clear after the first book. I was surprised a bit by Dudley Dursley because he managed to grow up at the last and surpassed both his parents. I wonder if he ever saw Harry again. Dumbledore was the big reveal, not because of his experiments as a young man, but because of the way he manipulated everone in the books (and of course because he seemed to fit the literary type of the wise helpful old man and because JKR called him the epitome of goodness in an interview). In fact, he did not trust anyone. He saw people as being useful or not useful. He was wise not to trust himself to become Mimister of Magic, because he was suceptable to the misuse of power, but it was a great flaw not to trust anyone, especially after he knew he would probably die before the defeat of LV. Despite his theme of the power of love, I don't see that he loved anyone, except Harry, and as he told Harry himself, he did not intend for that to happen. Certainly, he regretted the death of his sister and felt guilty about it, but I'm not sure he loved her the way his brother did. Nikkalmati From lynde4 at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 04:42:30 2013 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:42:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Our changing perception of characters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192312 > Nikkalmati > snip > I was disappointed in Lily after the last scene with Snape, because she had > been perceived through the idealized membories of Hagrid, Lupin and Snape. > I must add that although she seemed somewhat unfeeling under the > circumstances, she alludes to other events which have influenced her > decision, and I suspect she and Snape have had this conversation before. > But, I was disappointed. (I also question whether one reason she ended up > liking James was that he was wealthy. I don't think she came from a > well-to-do background and I know her sister Petunia wanted security more > than anything else.) > > > Dumbledore was the big reveal, not because of his experiments as a young > man, but because of the way he manipulated everone in the books (and of > course because he seemed to fit the literary type of the wise helpful old > man and because JKR called him the epitome of goodness in an interview). In > fact, he did not trust anyone. He saw people as being useful or not useful. snip Lynda: Of course my feelings toward the characters changed as the series revealed their characters! Unlike some others, I did not develop a dislike for Lily, nor did I one time suspect that her love for James was spurred by his family's wealth. I think she simply did not want to be friends with a boy who called muggles mudbloods and did not accept his non-magical parentage. As for Dumbledore's manipulativeness, I figured that at near the beginning of SS, so there was no big reveal there for me, other than how surprised so many people were about that. The clues were all there as to that aspect of Dumbledore's character. From vikingwoman at shaw.ca Fri Jan 25 00:06:27 2013 From: vikingwoman at shaw.ca (Charla) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:06:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Our changing perception of characters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192313 * Nikkalmati > snip > (I also question whether one reason she ended up > liking James was that he was wealthy. I don't think she came from a > well-to-do background and I know her sister Petunia wanted security more > than anything else.) > > > Dumbledore was the big reveal, not because of his experiments as a young > man, but because of the way he manipulated everone in the books (and of > course because he seemed to fit the literary type of the wise helpful old > man and because JKR called him the epitome of goodness in an interview). In > fact, he did not trust anyone. He saw people as being useful or not useful. snip Lynda: snip > Unlike some others, I did not develop a dislike for Lily, nor did I one time suspect that her love for James was spurred by his family's wealth. I think she simply did not want to be friends with a boy who called muggles mudbloods and did not accept his non-magical parentage. snip Charla: I would have to say about Dumbledore, I do not agree with you that he did not trust anyone. Rather I would say he was cautious. As for Lily I do not think wealth mattered ; she was simply attracted to James, he was more fun to be with and Snape burnt his bridges by using the term mudblood plus being very possessive. . . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Jan 28 03:20:18 2013 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:20:18 -0000 Subject: Our changing perception of characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192314 . > Lynda: > Of course my feelings toward the characters changed as the series > revealed their characters! Unlike some others, I did not develop a > dislike for Lily, nor did I one time suspect that her love for James > was spurred by his family's wealth. I think she simply did not want to > be friends with a boy who called muggles mudbloods and did not accept > his non-magical parentage. As for Dumbledore's manipulativeness, I > figured that at near the beginning of SS, so there was no big reveal > there for me, other than how surprised so many people were about that. > The clues were all there as to that aspect of Dumbledore's character. > Nikkalmati Well, I don't think SS had ever used that word before, so it is not as though his use of the word was the reason she refused to see him any more. At least I hope not. They were friends and had been for many years. She alone knew about his home circumstances. I doubt she could have blamed him for not accepting his abusive father. I don't think she dated James until well after she stopped seeing SS, so the incidents were not connected. She apparently thought James was a "toerag" and Harry even wondered if James had given her a love potion to make her marry him, so I was just wondering what made her decide James was her future husband. As for DD, I am not sure you are thinking of the same degree of maipulation as has been suggested by some (not necessarily me). Do you think he let SS go after he heard the prophecy so that he could tell LV and then LV would create his own nemesis? Do you think he let Sirius be sent to Azkaban so that no one else would have any influence over Harry? Do you think he placed Harry with the Dursleys for the same reason - so that DD would be his only mentor in the WW - all to the purpose of getting Harry killed by LV, because he knew from the first that Harry was a Horcrux? Nikkalmati From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Jan 28 03:31:25 2013 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:31:25 -0000 Subject: Our changing perception of characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Charla" wrote: > > > > > > > Charla: > > I would have to say about Dumbledore, I do not agree with you > that he did not trust anyone. Rather I would say he was cautious. As for Lily I do not think wealth mattered ; she was simply attracted to James, he was more fun to be with and Snape burnt his bridges > by using the term mudblood plus being very possessive. . . > > Nikkalmati I can't name one person DD trusted. He did not tell Harry what he was supposed to do after DD was gone; he did not tell SS what Harry was doing; he did not tell Minerva or his brother or anyone. It seems to me that if he knew he would be dead, he should have confided something to someone. The world was not composed of SS and James. I am sure there were lots of other boys she could have gone out with besides James. I was just wondering in a cynical way if being rich is better than not. Her economic background must have been not much better than Severus', if they lived close together. Nikkalmati > > > > > > > > From technomad at intergate.com Mon Jan 28 03:36:10 2013 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:36:10 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Our changing perception of characters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130127213610.7ur9ssdlwwcokcks@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192316 Quoting nikkalmati : > The world was not composed of SS and James. I am sure there were > lots of other boys she could have gone out with besides James. I > was just wondering in a cynical way if being rich is better than > not. Her economic background must have been not much better than > Severus', if they lived close together. > That might also explain Patooty's behavior: she's socially unsure of herself, having "married up" by marrying Vernon. Vernon's from a well-off-enough background that he went to Smeltings, which doesn't sound like a cheap proposition, even if it isn't anywhere near Eton or Harrow. If Lily and Petunia's parents were struggling, and had "gone down in the world," Petunia might well figure that Vernon's a good catch, whatever his faults. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From lynde4 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 03:59:30 2013 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:59:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Our changing perception of characters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192317 >> Charla: >> I would have to say about Dumbledore, I do not agree with you >> that he did not trust anyone. Rather I would say he was cautious. As for >> Lily I do not think wealth mattered ; she was simply attracted to James, >> he was more fun to be with and Snape burnt his bridges >> by using the term mudblood plus being very possessive. . . > > Nikkalmati: > I can't name one person DD trusted. He did not tell Harry what he was > supposed to do after DD was gone; he did not tell SS what Harry was doing; > he did not tell Minerva or his brother or anyone. It seems to me that if he > knew he would be dead, he should have confided something to someone. > > The world was not composed of SS and James. I am sure there were lots of > other boys she could have gone out with besides James. I was just wondering > in a cynical way if being rich is better than not. Her economic background > must have been not much better than Severus', if they lived close together. Lynda: My third try sending a message. I still think Lily just fell in love with James after deciding Snape was changing or had changed. I always knew that DD was a manipulator and that he would do whatever he thought was necessary, I reiterate; whatever he thought was necessary, to ensure Lord Thingy's destruction. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Tue Jan 29 03:51:16 2013 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 03:51:16 -0000 Subject: Our changing perception of characters In-Reply-To: <20130127213610.7ur9ssdlwwcokcks@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eric Oppen wrote: > > Quoting nikkalmati : > > > > The world was not composed of SS and James. I am sure there were > > lots of other boys she could have gone out with besides James. I > > was just wondering in a cynical way if being rich is better than > > not. Her economic background must have been not much better than > > Severus', if they lived close together. > > > That might also explain Patooty's behavior: she's socially unsure of > herself, having "married up" by marrying Vernon. > > Vernon's from a well-off-enough background that he went to Smeltings, > which doesn't sound like a cheap proposition, even if it isn't > anywhere near Eton or Harrow. If Lily and Petunia's parents were > struggling, and had "gone down in the world," Petunia might well > figure that Vernon's a good catch, whatever his faults. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Nikkalmati Patunia does seem to be grasping desperately at security, as though it could all disappear suddenly. I do wish we had had some "last words" from her in DH. Nikkalmati From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 31 12:57:39 2013 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:57:39 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Nineteen, Goblet of Fire: The Hungarian Horntail Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192319 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in-boxes, to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic, or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com Chapter Discussion: Chapter Nineteen, Goblet of Fire: The Hungarian Horntail. Harry was looking forward to talking with Sirius. He was very nervous about the first task and Ron was still not talking to him. Hermione tried to keep his spirits up. Rita Skeeter's piece in the Prophet was a huge embarrassment for Harry. He was featured over anyone else and she had put words in his mouth that he had never said. Most of the students were supporting Cedric. Hagrid asked Harry to come down to his cabin, when he and Hermione met up with him and Moody in Hogsmeade. At midnight, he met Hagrid (Harry was wearing his cloak) and Hagrid brought Madame Maxime and Harry around the edge of the Forbidden Forest out of sight of the castle. Harry was shocked to see four huge fire-breathing dragons and Charlie Weasley with a crew of wizards wrangling them. He gathered that the champions had to get by the dragons for the first task. On the way back to the castle, he saw Karkaroff sneaking toward the dragon pens. When he saw Sirius in the fireplace, Harry blurted out that dragons were the first task. Sirius warned Harry about Karkaroff, who had been a Death Eater in the first war, and about the Durmstrang champion. He thought someone really had attacked Moody to keep him from getting to Hogwarts and he listed other strange things including the disappearance of Bertha Jokins. He warned Harry someone was trying to use the tournament to attack him. Their conversation was interrupted by the appearance of Ron in his pajamas. The two boys had an angry exchange of words and Harry went to bed. Questions: 1. Do you think that the tasks (as represented by the use of dragons) were too dangerous? Wasn't it possible someone would be killed - as had happened before? 2. Why do wizards capture and keep dragons? 3. Did you think Sirius was right about Karakoff? If so, why did the authorities at Hogwarts welcome him? 4. Did Karakoff go to Hogwarts? If not, why is he the only foreign-born Death Eater we know about? 5. Did you think Hagrid's attraction to Madame Maxine was amusing? 6. Was it Hagrid's idea to "cheat" by showing Harry and Madame Maxime the dragons or did Moody or DD advise him to do it? 7. Do you admire Hermione for sticking by Harry? Are there any other questions you can think of about this chapter? nikkalmati NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 If you would like to volunteer to lead a chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From curtiswberry at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 13:37:21 2013 From: curtiswberry at gmail.com (Curtis Berry) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 06:37:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Nineteen, Goblet of Fire: The Hungarian Horntail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048301cdffb8$19bf1170$4d3d3450$@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192320 Questions: 1. Do you think that the tasks (as represented by the use of dragons) were too dangerous? Wasn't it possible someone would be killed - as had happened before? Too dangerous by whose standards? Seems like the children faced multiple dangers throughout the books that muggle children would never face. I think this was Rowling's intention to portray wizards as people who faced dangers all the time. 2. Why do wizards capture and keep dragons? Power and possible ingredients for spells: scales, blood, horns, etc. 3. Did you think Sirius was right about Karakoff? If so, why did the authorities at Hogwarts welcome him? His suspicions couldn't be formally proven. To deny Karakoff would have caused an incident. 4. Did Karakoff go to Hogwarts? If not, why is he the only foreign-born Death Eater we know about? Can't say on this one. 5. Did you think Hagrid's attraction to Madame Maxine was amusing? It was. But I believe it also portrayed as someone with normal feeling that the reader can associate with. 6. Was it Hagrid's idea to "cheat" by showing Harry and Madame Maxime the dragons or did Moody or DD advise him to do it? Tough to tell on this one. Considering that DD's aim was to protect Harry, I'm sure he had a hand in it. 7. Do you admire Hermione for sticking by Harry? Of course. Good friends breed loyalty. Curtis Berry http://www.curtisberry.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]