From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 1 21:23:06 2013 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 21:23:06 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Twenty Two, Goblet of Fire: The Unexpected Task In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192480 > Questions: > > 1. "Hermione, Neville's right - you are a girl... > "Oh, well spotted," she said accidly" > So do you think this was indeed the moment when Ron starts noticing Hermione as > somebody more than a friend, if not, when did you think it start?" Pippin: It depends on which part of Ron you are talking about. I think there were sparks from the first meeting, even before they became friends. But Ron is still repressing those feelings at this point in the story, The girl he consciously wants to be more than a friend is Fleur. At this point, Ron is repressing the thought of Hermione as a romantic partner to the extent that he can't see her as a romantic partner for *anyone*. Thus his insistence, later, that Krum is only interested in Hermione so he can get information on Harry. > > > 2. Neville for all his timidness, apparently invited Hermione before Ron and > Harry worked up a courage to invite the girls they wanted to go with. Did this > signify Neville's courage coming into spotlight or something else? Anything? Pippin: It could be courage, but it might be resignation. I don't think Neville is as afraid of making himself look bad as Harry and Ron. > > > 3. "She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something. Didn't even answer". > If Ron's recollection is true to what happened, I thought Fleur could have been > nicer to him, even though of course as an older girl to hear fourteen year old > invite her may have felt as beneath her. What did you think? Pippin: Turning someone down nicely while still conveying that there isn't a hope would be a challenge even for a native speaker -- Fleur may have felt that her "Engleesh" was not up to the task. It's also a bit insulting that Ron would even suppose Fleur, wouldn't have a date already. > > 4. Bearing in mind that Harry had been effectively dragged into the Tournament > without his knowledge or approval, do you think that Professor McGonagall > treated him harshly in overruling him and insisting that he have a partner > despite his insistence that he did not dance, bearing in mind that the dance, > in Harry's perception was a waste of time against the threst to him from > Voldemort? Pippin: Harry needs all the friends he can get -- embarrassing the school, or the segment of the school that supports him, won't help. Also, if the Goblet of Fire thinks that the ball is a part of the competition, there really is no choice -- Harry is bound by its magic to participate. > > 5. What do you think of the boys' approaches to potential ball partners? Do > you think that Ron's rather flippant views about the Ball created problems > for Harry? > Pippin: I'm not sure what you mean, would you like to expand on that? > 6. Do you think that Hermione's comment that people only liked Krum because > he was famous might also be applicable to Harry ? If so, why had only a > handful of girls ? mainly from junior forms ? made any sort of move in his > direction? Pippin: Heh heh -- this is misdirection of course, since Hermione knows very well who Krum's partner is. As for why the other girls were avoiding Harry, -- I think everyone expected him to go with Ginny or Hermione, and were leery of getting in their way. > > 7. Harry was very suspicious of Rita Skeeter's interview with Hagrid. What did > you feel about her motives and possible article when Hagrid described it to > them? I thought she was looking to stir up trouble, as usual. > > 8. It seems strange that, in the past, when younger people were allowed to enter, > they would have been expected to have a date and to lead off a ball. What does > this tell us about the Wizarding World historically? Would the younger > contestants have been considered closer to marriageable age than younger witches > and wizards today? Would they have had marriage arrangements and so not have > had the difficulty of asking someone for a date? Has the Wizarding World changed > much since then, as far as dating is concerned? Pippin: Hmmm...if the ball has been part of the tournament from the beginning, then candidates would always have been selected with that in mind -- it's almost unheard for a firstie to get chosen for a House Team, let alone the TWT. Who competes in the tournament has never been entirely up to the goblet, because only some students from the visiting schools even get a chance to put in their names. So it's really only the host school that would have younger students eligible. But from what Fake!Moody says, even fourth years haven't usually come into their full power as wizards, so it's unlikely that students too young to date ever made it into the competition at all. I expect in the days when the TWT was open to younger students, it still would probably have been only 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th years competing, and that's plenty old enough to go to a dance, IMO. Young nobles in the Renaissance and Middle Ages had dancing masters, didn't they? So they would have been expected to know how to perform court dances. Pippin From oriondruid at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 19:40:43 2013 From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 19:40:43 -0000 Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote: > > Hi All. > > This is a post to explain an addition I made to the group's database for recommended reading. > Snipped. John This is just brief info to say that over on FF dot net my crossover fan fiction story No Different Flesh which is set linking between the worlds' of Harry Potter and The People and which is ongoing.There's a second short chapter which I added to the first today. I'd be delighted if some of you might like to take a look and maybe even review, as feedback is what we amateur writers crave, good or bad it all helps us develop our abilities. :o) By the way, take a look at a Poul Anderson story from the 1970's (I believe)called Operation Changeling, which also has a few 'Potteresque' coincidences, featuring a skilled broom flying red haired witch called Ginny, her husaband who is a 'good' werewolf and their kneazle like ultra intelligent witch's cat Svartalf, who consents to be benignly 'possesed' by the spirit of a deceased (real life) non euclidian geometer, who acts as 'navigator' on their raid into hell through it's twisted continuum, which the witch and werewolf carry out to rescue their abducted and substituted daughter. > > Many Blessings All. > John, (Oriondruid). From victoriaangelhpfan at yahoo.com Tue Jul 16 22:42:04 2013 From: victoriaangelhpfan at yahoo.com (Victoriaangel) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:42:04 -0000 Subject: Wand allegiance / Scorpius Malfoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192482 > Carol: > As long as the wand is safely hidden and Harry keeps silent about the details (which were surely foggy to any listeners--you must know how unreliable the human memory is and how even eye witnesses remember things differently minus a Pensieve--people will forget what they know or think they know and people who weren't present will get only an inaccurate version of the story. And if a Fidelius Charm is cast on the wand, even its existence will be largely forgotten. > > Carol earlier: > > > The last thing he wants is to spend it fighting to keep the mastery of the Elder Wand. > Eggplant: > > Harry's wishes on this matter are irrelevant, and anyway for a moment stop putting yourself in the position of Harry and put yourself in the position of JKR. > Carol responds: > Please don't tell me what to do. And Harry's wishes are not irrelevant. His choices at the end of the book--to keep the Invisibility Cloak without, of course, advertising that it's a Hallow; to leave the Resurrection Stone where it lies; and to put the Elder Wand back after using it to repair his own--show who he is, just as choices always do in the HP books. And what he wants (peace for the WW, a normal life for himself) *is relevant to that choice. But, actually, I am putting myself in the position of JKR. Her hero Harry is never defeated except through accident or interference (Dobby), and luck, friends, coincidence, or dei ex machina (hope my Latin plural is corrrect!) always save him. So, JKR chooses the outcome that's in character for Harry and appropriate to the themes of the book. *She* wants the power of the Elder Wand ended as much as Harry and DD do. And she's not going to allow some future Dark Wizard (for the sake of argument, Scorpius Malfoy although I'd rather see little Scorpius fall in love with Rose Weasley) defeat him. "All was well," and, I suspect, all will remain well with "the hero who vanquished the Dark Lord." > Eggplant: > What's the point of implying that your main character's life was very dull after you stopped writing about him? I really think this getting rid of the Elder Wand business was a last minute change because unlike the rest of the plot it doesn't seem to be well thought out. > Carol responds: > Very dull? All Harry has ever wanted since SS/PS is to be Just Harry with a normal life and a loving family (and, since HBP, to marry Ginny Weasley). I'll bet anything that getting rid of the Elder Wand was planned from the beginning as the right thing to do, both sensible with regard to getting rid of a perennial source of strife and in character for Harry. > Carol, who suspects that Harry's job and kids (especially James) give him as much excitement as he wants (if he's bored, he can watch a Quidditch match or visit Charlie and his dragons in Romania) Victoria: I like where you are going with this. I agree - Harry likely does enjoy his life in the post-war climate. I mean he has a family he wants with his third cousin and true love Ginny, three kids and a job as Head Auror. His job is no coincidence either. He goes from Auror to Head Auror rather quickly. Youngest to ever get the position so quick. I wonder why? Maybe Kingsley was getting angsty that Harry was in danger in the field and conveniently promoted him? We may never know! JK isn't speaking either way. I like some of your points on the plot holes. I think the idea is interpretation is important and if you can fill the plot hole in with at least some ideas. It's when the hole is empty and has a vacuum that we can panic. :o) Lastly, the last thing Scorpius is going to be is the next Dark Lord. I have sadly read some fanon out there about this and the likelihood is very, very, very slim. The Malfoys are known for their cunning and anything presented to the public is largely a pack of half-truths. They are hardly going to say what they really think. I can see Lucius getting a headache at the thought of someone being so na?ve to wear their heart on their sleeve like so. :o) In the post war, the Malfoys wriggled out of Azkaban though it is implied that their reputation suffered quite a bit. Especially, since Lucius sold out the DE's to the Auror office according to Pottermore, CoS chapter 4. I can see Draco changing around this time. As the Ministry try to bring things under control, the werewolves become more rogue and Death Eaters flee from punishment and orphans given a place to go to in safety, Draco started to rethink everything he was brought up with. Some things like age-old celebrations he liked and some things like prejudice and discrimination he didn't. Of course, all this was easier to say than do but do he has tried since c.1999. Maybe it is trying to be polite to muggleborns (teaching himself to call them muggleborns and not mudbloods) or maybe it is to raise his son in a much better world. I strongly doubt that Scorpius was brought up with prejudice, even with Lucius in the manor. I think Draco and Astoria would have brought him up much better. I can see his parents teaching him that prejudice was a very Bad Thing and not something to do. His grandparents would have taught him that family matters. And as a child, Scorpius would have taken this to heart. As a teenager, he would have formed his own views and likely been disgusted at Lucius's behaviour. I think their familial bond would have been the only thing to keep them connected - that and Nana Cissy. Of course, Lucius would have to accept Rose Weasley as the next Malfoy bride. Lucius would likely take issue with Rose being a Weasley - and she might not be so loyal to her family if Scorpius is simply more important; think Andromeda Black - rather than a half-blood. Malfoys have had a few half-bloods in the family since the International statute of Secrecy according to Pottermore. The Weasleys and Malfoys are in a centuries old-blood feud if you read between the text. Rose and Scorpius - shy, quite and reserved Ravenclaw Scorpius - are star-crossed lovers! The Malfoys are more likely to accept it than the hot-blooded Weasleys who are known to shun even their own - poor Percy and everything he did as the Scarlet Pimperal too :). Family is everything to the Malfoys. Especially if sixteen year old Rose is pregnant by sixth year too. :o) In all likelihood, Scorpius has had a very different childhood to Draco. He lives in a much better world and is a much better person than Draco or Lucius. A great improvement. His name is symbolic as both a constellation (tradition) and the "God of Sun and Life" (New modern world). Scorpius has everything against him. He likely protests against prejudice aimed at muggleborns and wishes to improve life for many around him. A healer perhaps? Most likely. I can't see this Malfoy as wanting to be an Auror - family disapproval - nor a politician as it is likely that Malfoys are barred from politics for quite a few centuries. I can see Draco and Lucius signing a magically enhanced document set up by Hermione and Kingsley in order for the Malfoys to not be sent to Azkaban. A back-door Ministry deal for freedom! *the scandal!* :o) I can see the symbolic nature of Harry defeating the Dark Lord meaning that the wizarding world won't be having a Dark wizard any time soon. When it does, it will likely be under the radar, out of the security net and a complete surprise! Likely in Harry's great-grandchildren's time. The rarity of Dark Lords is just that. The last uprising since the secrecy Act was likely Napoleon-era. That Dark Lord was defeated and the Victorians provided the opportunities for Muggleborns to return officially to the wizarding world after 150-odd years from being barred. The rise of half-bloods and middle class is observed. Then Grindelwald happens. He is defeated. However, the usual pattern is disrupted with Voldemort. He was a complete surprise by the late sixties and early 70's when he went on his campaign of terror and had entrapped his followers into enslavement. He is defeated by HP. The 21st century is a new era...with democracy being implanted alongside a whole host of new and equal laws. The next Dark uprising will likely be different to Voldemort's in terms of ideology. Grindelwald's was about supremacy over Muggles. Not necessarily Muggleborns. Perhaps GG didn't care about muggleborns. Voldy pretended to care - though he did hate Muggles. That was genuine. The next uprising may be over muggle inferiority or it could be about repealing the Secrecy Act for all we know! I do know it won't be anytime soon. Victoria From stanner91 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 26 01:09:21 2013 From: stanner91 at yahoo.com (stanner91) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 01:09:21 -0000 Subject: Introducing a new generation to HP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192484 My wife and I are big Potterheads. We both became obsessed with the books as each subsequent one was published. It got to the point that our friends, realizing how into the books we were, left a brand new copy of the Goblet of Fire at the hotel desk when the weekend we got married. What a pleasant surprise! Let me tell you, everyone was reading the book on the cruise ship. Anyway, years passed and now we have 4 kids. The oldest is now a proficient and avid reader, devouring chapter books. My wife and I have made conscious efforts to delay introducing our children to certain books and films until they are old enough to appreciate them: HP, Star Wars (the original trilogy), LoTR, Superman (Chris Reeves versions 1&2, etc. As such, she and her siblings have no idea what are the outcomes of the books. Imagine, say, if you have no idea that Darth Vader was Luke's father. How could you expect any of the twists of the books (or movies)? We plan on have the kids read the book and then watch the movie, in order to appreciate and enjoy the books more. So far she has read and watched the first and jumped right into the CoS. We often find her reading past her bedtime with her book light. However, she also she wants us to read the story with her. I am surprised how much I enjoy this. I have read each of the books multiple times (especially the first 3) and watched each movie at least twice. First by watching her excitement with each chapter, heck, each paragraph. It's been great seeing this as fresh and new through her eyes. Second, discovering for myself new connections I hadn't made previously. Anyone else have such a experience? stanner91 From zucht413 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 26 07:03:41 2013 From: zucht413 at yahoo.com (Scott Smith) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 00:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Introducing a new generation to HP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1374822221.18630.YahooMailNeo@web125201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192485 > stanner91: > > We plan on have the kids read the book and then watch the movie, in order to appreciate and enjoy the books more. So far she has read and watched the first and jumped right into the CoS. We often find her reading past her bedtime with her book light. However, she also she wants us to read the story with her. I am surprised how much I enjoy this. I have read each of the books multiple times (especially the first 3) and watched each movie at least twice. First by watching her excitement with each chapter, heck, each paragraph. It's been great seeing this as fresh and new through her eyes. Second, discovering for myself new connections I hadn't made previously. > Anyone else have such a experience? No, but I do envy your opportunity and blessing that you have received. -Z "I haven't read Gone With The Wind" by Louis L'Amore