From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 00:13:25 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 00:13:25 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <js2gu9+udls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kobeb5+bin5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192371


> > Z:
> >> I haven't heard of the Stephen Fry books and have a question
> >> stemming from this ignorance.  Did SF write the books and they
> >> are being read by someone else or is SF reading the JKR books?
> >
> > Bruce:
> > Stephen Fry read the UK editions of the JKR books. Jim Dale read
> > the USA editions of the JKR books.
>
> Charla:
> Both Stephen Fry and Jim Dale (both British) are audio book readers
> for JKR books.  Both are great; I too live in Canada.  I find some
> of the changes made for American readers rather loses the British
> feel that too is so charming about the wizard world.
> For those not familiar with British terms try this site.
> http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/a.htm



Hi Charla, thanks for the interesting link.

That may well be of great help to some who are not familiar with Brit slang and idioms. Along those lines there was a file called A Guide for NonBrits Writing Harry Potter Fanfics, that was posted on many fan fiction websites some years back. It was by a writer using the pen name Pinky Brown and was intended to be informative, slightly humerous and maybe slightly 'snarky', (to use a very non Brit word all too commonly used by some American HP fan writers).

The document is now outdated in a few minor ways, such as the fact that certain words have 'leaked' into UK usage of late and have superseded the older English terms,(for instance Shopping Mall has tended to replace the older Shopping Centre). Nevertheless this guide is still very much a useful reference work for anyone wanting to learn the difference between UK and US usage of words and idiom and particularly those wanting to write stories set in the UK.

For this reason and since it is a non copyright fan work I will paste a .pdf copy of this now hard to find file into the files section of this group. I think if some of you read it then it may both illuminate the differences between US and UK English usage and also entertain you. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 01:14:09 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 01:14:09 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <AA2BA8E735F5429C8C0A15F5E37A666A@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <kobht1+82gh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192372


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorothy dankanyin" <ddankanyin at ...> wrote:
>
> All you Brits out there,
>   I love all your expressions.  I watch BBCAmerica tv, and certainly British movies, so please "talk" to us however you'd like.  I love it.
>   Dorothy


Hi Dorothy.
Thank you for those kind words, I'm glad you like some of the output from our British media and entertainment industry. Of course that is reciprocated here, for instance I am a massive fan of The Big Bang Theory. I'm a bit of a science fan so it ticks that box, the acting and writing are superbly funny and the show also has several attractive young ladies in the cast, so what's not to like? :o)

Indeed when we combine our two countries' talents, such as we did on the Harry Potter films we can (as Ollivander said to Harry) achieve "Extraordinary things"! Even if Steve Kloves' screenplay for the final movie was a bit of a 'dogs breakfast' as we Brits say. Up until then he'd generally done a good job on the rest of the movies but how dare he kill off my darling Lavender Brown! If I could have got to him at the Trafalgar Square premiere he might have got a punch in the nose! Grrr! :o(

No, best not get into that rant right now, but I feel a new thread coming on. :o)
Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 03:06:07 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 03:06:07 -0000
Subject: A functional cloak of invisibility ? what?
In-Reply-To: <9545B7F2-6AE2-4153-AF0D-75CA6D021162@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <koboev+se0h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192373

Hi everyone.

As Clarkes Third Law states....

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

This statement is also probably reversible, but I have yet to witness any indisputably genuine advanced magic and so cannot be sure this is the case. :o)

Yes, technology can undoubtedly produce many ideas and technologies that can operate to provide 'effective' if not 'actual' invisibility.

Starting with the earliest, but often most effective method there is, of course, simple physical camouflage. If anyone doubts the effectiveness of such 'crude' methods I dare them to walk around in a wood with a well camouflaged and well positioned and highly trained sniper trying to get a shot at them. What kind of flowers due you want for your funeral? :o

Another variation on simple methods is of course to utilise the concealing power of darkness.

Going up the scale to far more sophisticated methods one must look to technologies that can either make a man or machine 'radar invisible' and the now familiar 'stealth' technologies can do exactly that. They work by eliminating or at least drastically reducing the level of energy from radar systems that get reflected back to the detector/receivers of tracking systems. The plane's special shapes and also special radar energy absorbing coatings can make a modern stealth plane or ship appear far smaller or more distant than they actually are and make locking weapons onto them as targets very hard. But even these sophisticated stealth technologies are not true invisibility, and certainly cannot fool one of the most simple but also very sensitive detection systems, the Mk.1 eyeball! That is why stealth plane attacks are almost always carried out under the cover of darkness.

Ok, now we start to look to current research, (stealth is not cutting edge but is in fact an 80's technology that was kept top secret for a long time).

So we can, to some extent hide a plane or ship from radar to gain a tactical advantage, but visual detection in daylight is always a strong possibility. What can we do to circumvent that hazard and what can we do also to hide the heat emissions of living bodies or engines?

The idea of hiding things from visual detection is in part tacking a step back to the idea of camouflage, and in the past was done simply with paint effects, such as painting the bottom of a high flying aircraft to match the blue of the sky as seen from the ground. If this is done accurately to all intents and purposes such an aircraft can become 'invisible', but getting the colour match just right is impossible to maintain, as the colour of the sky is always changing.

However modern 'smart' materials that have chameleon type properties are being developed (some from the study of octopi and squid, who also have amazing camouflage abilities). Combined with cameras detecting their surroundings soon a plane, ship or tank etc will be able to constantly change it's colour to match it's background. For a stationary or very slow moving vehicle this idea (at least when viewed from a frontal position) can be very effective, however in the case of faster moving vehicles, like jets there is almost bound to be a slight lag in the system which might betray a plane's presence.

As to the 'heat signature' of a person or vehicle, some systems exist already to reduce visibility. In the case of a person a simple insulated suit and helmet can, for a very short time, prevent their body heat being detected. However, given that the heat of their body is trapped inside such a suit with nowhere to go it rapidly builds up and becomes unbearable, or indeed lethal if allowed to go on too long. 

Some more sophisticated ideas have been tried, variations on the 'insulation' idea. One such idea which can work for longer periods with the user remaining more comfortable is based on the underwear of a spacesuit, as worn by the astronauts on the moon. Some of the designs for such suits had an active liquid cooled garment worn next to the skin, which carried away the build up of heat. However the heat must eventually go somewhere and it is transferred to a backpack or 'suitcase' type unit which uses heat exchangers to keep the liquid body coolant at the right temperature. However this cooling unit itself gets hot in the process and would become highly detectable, so  in a 'stealth suit' liquid gas refrigerants are employed to try and balance out this heat and prevent the emission of this energy for as long as possible.

Using such a garment and cooling system a person could easily defeat the most commonly used of burglar alarm detectors, a passive infrared detector. These devices normally work by picking up an intruder's body heat moving in it's 'field of view'. Thus a criminal or assassin could carry out their work in a premises without fear of detection, at least for as long as their coolant pack holds out.

Vehicles too can have analogous 'heat camouflage' units fitted and indeed the military of many countries are working on such technologies right now, the best of which can make a large military vehicle like a tank 'invisible' in the heat spectrum, at least as long as it remains stationary.

So then, we have the ability at least partially to hide from visual, radar and heat detection, part way then to true invisibility, but there's still a long way to go. At least two other detection systems need to be thwarted.

In the case of a human body, we breathe and sweat in order to live and the chemicals emmitted by these 'life processes' can be detected and tracked, special absorbant filter materials and face masks might well help against such detectors however.

One final telltale signature remains however, that being sound. Betrayal by sound can either come from from passive tracking (at it's most simple just listening or using very sensitive machines for more accurate and analytical tracking like submarines do) or by active 'sound radar' similar to that a bat or dolphin use to track their prey. This later is hard to beat as any movement betrays one's presence, causing 'doppler shifts' in the sounds that reflect back to the sound sensor, although by clever surface design of materials, using absorbant materials the reflected sound can be much reduced. In the case of passive trackers just muffling noise sources will work, to a greater or lesser extent, depending on how much noise you want to hide. For instance a human creeping about on crepe soles tippy toe is not a very noisy event. But running a tank or jet engine very much is.

Combining all the suggested technologies and ideas above into one might provide a high degree of indetectability, but still we are not talking full, infallible and genuine invisibility. So what of the future?

Well the boffins reckon it may one day be possible to 'bend' light around a person or object and thus render it invisible in the true sense. This is already possible using tiny samples of special materials in tightly controlled laboratory conditions, but it ain't gonna happen anyday soon in the 'real world' on a large scale. It fact it never may come true, as just because you have a chunk of material with the right properties to be made invisible it doesn't necessarily mean that material has the right mechanical property to make part of a plane, a ship or even a human garment.

So meanwhile I guess we all better hope (as The Weird Sister's lyric says), that 'Magic Works' 'cos us muggles have a long way to go before we can duplicate Harry's cloak. ;o)
Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid). 




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 12:33:43 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 12:33:43 -0000
Subject: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
Message-ID: <kocpn7+q75g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192374

Hi all.
An oldish controversy this, but one Jo Rowling has not fully clarified from what she wrote in the final book.

In the written text at the Battle of Hogwarts whilst fighting bravely Lavender Brown fell from a balcony and as she lay injured was then attacked by Fenrir Greyback, but thankfully and a little ironically Hermione Granger seeing what happened blasted him off of her former love rival with a spell. When last 'reported' by Jo she was known to be still alive, but injured, perhaps seriously. That's the 'canon' position anyway.

However, in the final movie Steve Kloves, the screenwriter took it upon himself to 'kill her off' and we see her dead body being covered up. :o(

However, as we all know the final part (DH2) was very different from what Jo wrote, indeed whilst in many ways a brilliant 'action movie' it had very little to do with the book events in many places. Personally after the dragon escape from Gringotts I feel it becomes so AU (Alternate Univere) it has little at all to do with any Potter story I know and is an utter 'dogs breakfast' or at best a 'Curate's Egg' as we Brits say. :o(

Events and their settings were changed for no particular reason other than perhaps to help with the 'cinematic flow' and several other 'non canon' scenes and events were invented. Don't get me wrong, some of these 'rewrites' were very good and one scene/piece of dialogue almost goes so far as to redeem the whole as far as I am concerned. That is the part where Neville Longbottom stands at the end of the boobytrapped bridge and taunts Scaboir and his horde of Death Eaters with his now famous "You and who's army?" line. Brilliant stuff and hilarious. :o)

Indeed in some ways Neville comes out of this film having the best scenes and dialogue, his defiant speech to Voldemort, his killing the snake and, (for me, since it is my favourite non canon 'ship'), his declaration that he is "mad for" Luna Lovegood all go together to suggest that possibly the prophecy was wrong and in fact it needed both Neville and Harry working together to defeat the Dark Lord.

Anyway, enough of that, do I hear what about the fate of Lavender Brown and why do you care so much?

Several reasons, I firstly came to relate to her when she sadly lost Binky, her pet rabbit who she'd had to leave at her family home while at Hogwarts and who died, I felt so sorry for her. Secondly because the Trio treated her so badly during her frantic infatuation with 'Won Won', for which her lack of self control was simply down to raging hormones and the intensity of first love, she simply couldn't help herself. Thirdly in the way she gained Ron as her boyfriend she in fact showed why she was placed in Gryffindor, despite superficially being nothing but a gossip machine and fashion victim. In fact she saw what she wanted (Ron) and had the self confidence and courage to 'go for it', that being a very typical Gryffindor trait. And by the way she didn't 'steal' Ron from Hermione as some think, because at the time they weren't even a romantic couple.

Lavender 'disappears off the radar' for a while in the later books but  makes a brave return at the Battle of Hogwarts. She had been hiding out in the Room of Requirement with the rest of the DA and other oppressed pupils and had been helping the injured and frightened youngsters, then in the Battle she fights bravely, once again showing her Gryffindor courage, until sadly she is hurt as I described above.

So now to the question I posed, what happened next? Did she live, die or live and become a werewolf. As I said JKR left it undefined. The werewolf idea is one many accept as right, since in the description of the attack on her by Fenrir Greyback he is described by onlookers as  being a 'grey blur' who leaps on her and begins to maul her. Does this mean he was transformed to his werewolf form or simply moved very fast? If he was transformed she might well become a werewolf, or like Bill Weasley, another of Greyback's victims, simply acquire some scars and a few 'wolfish traits' such as a liking for virtually raw meat.

Then again if Greyback was not in werewolf form then she might simply have some scars and also injuries from her fall needing curing by Poppy and her volunteer helpers, then gone on to live a fairly 'normal' witch's life.

The other option is of course that she simply died after succumbing to her injuries, as Steve Kloves seems to think and wrote into the screenplay.

As to me I tend to go with the werewolf option and I love her dearly as a character almost as much as she loved 'Won Won', because the werewolf Lavender Brown is such a great heroine post war in many superb fan fiction stories. Several excellent examples of note being written by an incredible fan author (pen name Northumbrian), who is a fellow Brit and a very canon and skilled writer, fully professional in standard and with a JKR type eye for detail and very prolific. Part of his very extensive output, (which like Jo's own work builds into a huge integrated story), relates tales of Lavender's brave struggle back to full fitness post Battle and her then career as the Auror Office's 'werewolf expert in residence'. Northumbrian also goes into her love life post battle, pairing her with an incredibly good character of his own invention, one every bit as good, detailed and well rounded as any of Jo's, a Scottish wizarding law officer called Mark Moon. The stories of their adventures and romance together are utterly brilliant.

Another superb fan writer is an American, (pen name sarcastrow), who has a similar take on Lavender Brown post war and has written several excellent stories about her as well. I would recommend everyone who doesn't know these two writers works to try searching their profiles on the several fan fiction websites or look at their LiveJournal profile pages for lists and details of their online tales. Also for that matter many other amateur writers (like myself) have also featured the lovely Lavender in their stories. :o)

So there yer go, that's my 'take' on Lavender Brown and her fate at the Battle.

So what do you think? Live, dead or werewolf why not let me know what you believe?

Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid)






From vikingwoman at shaw.ca  Sat Jun  1 14:41:44 2013
From: vikingwoman at shaw.ca (Charla)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 07:41:44 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <kobeb5+bin5@eGroups.com>
References: <js2gu9+udls@eGroups.com> <kobeb5+bin5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <557A9448723D4093B09DCA35A9565FAF@CHARLADESKTOP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192375

> John:
> Hi Charla, thanks for the interesting link.
>
> That may well be of great help to some who are not familiar with
Brit slang and idioms. Along those lines there was a file called A
Guide for NonBrits Writing Harry Potter Fanfics, that was posted on
many fan fiction websites some years back. It was by a writer using
the pen name Pinky Brown and was intended to be informative, slightly
humerous and maybe slightly 'snarky', (to use a very non Brit word
all too commonly used by some American HP fan writers).

<snip>

> For this reason and since it is a non copyright fan work I will
paste a .pdf copy of this now hard to find file into the files
section of this group. I think if some of you read it then it may
both illuminate the differences between US and UK English usage and
> also entertain you. :o)


Hi John,

Thank you for your kind comments.  Maybe you could email me about
Spooks the telly show; I am a real fan of the show and maybe you are
too.  I know it would be rather off topic here so private email would
be better.

Kve?ka,

Blessings,


Charla

 <mailto:vikingwoman at shaw.ca> vikingwoman at shaw.ca

Victoria, British Columbia , Canada







From dehippern at ns.sympatico.ca  Sat Jun  1 14:56:59 2013
From: dehippern at ns.sympatico.ca (DenEde)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 11:56:59 -0300
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
Message-ID: <51AA0BBB.1010507@ns.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 192376

Welcome John (Oriondruid),

I am Canadian and you are correct that the Canadian versions of the 
audio books are true to the book. Remember the first one was published 
in Canada by Raintree. We use the same spellings as the rest of the 
Commonwealth. It was disappointing when I picked up one of the books 
for a grandchild, while vacationing in Florida, to discover the 
differences. 

Wonder what they think when they go to the movies and everything is 
very British?

I got the audio books for my husband to listen to in the car and so my 
vote is for Stephen Fry.

Mumra








From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 16:57:46 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 16:57:46 -0000
Subject: A functional cloak of invisibility ? what?
In-Reply-To: <kl1ri5+fgd4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kod96a+pqof@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192377

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "omegafold" <omegafold at ...> wrote:
>
> Okay someone asked me about this a while back so here's the latest from the desk of the greatest zero point physicist ever to make such information public.....TRIMMED TO SAVE SPACE.....About 70 years ago there was a fellow named Nikola Tesla......TRIMMED TO SAVES SPACE



Hi omegafold.

My previous post on this thread got a bit too long, so this one is separate.

Regarding Nicola Tesla and his amazing inventions, I agree the man was unique, a century or more ahead of his time. Even his more basic and 'verifiable' devices are incredibly advanced for their age and form the basis of things we use,(often unchanged), to this very day! 

His inventions in the field of high and low frequency AC current generation and it's transmission, fluorescent and incandescent lighting, remote radio control, bladeless turbine fluid pumps, current control and switchgear and a vast number of other now commonplace items of an electrical and electronic nature are stunning in the degree to which they created the modern world.

The other less completed projects, such as his ideas on the wireless transmission of electricity, scalar energy weapons of immense destructive power and 'death rays' are only part verified, but certainly working models on a small scale of these things were constructed and the military of many countries have many such projects based upon his ideas. 

I would truly love to have seen his massive power transmitter station at Wardencliffe, the huge tower with it's strange alien looking 'mushroom cap' top built to transmit not just messages like radio, but also to transmit electrical power without wires across long distances. This idea was suppressed and shut down by vested interests in favour of the ideas of Westinghouse and their AC alternators and wired power transmission.

Would Tesla's idea have worked, I'm not a good enough scientist to say either way, but having read a fair amount about it I feel it just might. Certainly it was not simply a theory but it was actually demonstrated on a small scale! Some 'conventional' scientists decry the idea as it seems to defy the 'inverse square law' of power decreasing over distance it is transmitted through the air, but that is because they simply don't understand the basic ideas under which it operates! The air/ionosphere acts only as the 'return path' the actual power is transmitted through and stored within the body of the planet, like it's one huge capacitor!

This ionosperic link is just one of the ideas turned into 'black ops' by the US military with their infamous HARRP experimental transmitter system, designed,(allegedly), as a weather and communications affecting weapon.

Tesla is also credited with many other innovations, such as a version of antigravity craft powered by his wireless power transmission system and also even, (it is rumoured) a crude television system that transmitted in colour! It is even claimed he worked on ideas about time travel and might indeed even have been trying to get 'back to the future'. Hokum? Who knows, but even his verifiable ideas and technologies are still viable and in use today.

Regarding the others parts of the previous post, I know far less about these things. Certainly scientists are studying the properties of biological systems and I mentioned the experiments trying to mimic octopus and squid methods of concealment, to try and create a form of invisibility but regarding antigravity I know little.

Except that is for one thing, that the Nazis were very interested in such research, Nicola Tesla originated many of the ideas they investigated and before the war ended they are rumoured to have built and flown some 'saucer craft'.

America's secret Operation Paperclip's trawl through the ruins of Germany for information and scientists at the end of the war captured and transferred much data and many scientists to the USA. Obviously rockets and spaceflight evolved from these finds and are public knowledge, but as to what else there's little I can say. One point however is indisputable, the rise in the numbers of UFO reports post WW2 as the late 1940's turned into the 50's and 60's!

Coincidence, what do you think? ;o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).





From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Jun  1 21:35:06 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 17:35:06 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she
 a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <kocpn7+q75g@eGroups.com>
References: <kocpn7+q75g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51AA690A.1020303@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192378

On 6/1/2013 8:33 AM, John wrote:
> In the written text at the Battle of Hogwarts whilst fighting bravely Lavender Brown fell from a balcony and as she lay injured was then attacked by Fenrir Greyback, but thankfully and a little ironically Hermione Granger seeing what happened blasted him off of her former love rival with a spell. When last 'reported' by Jo she was known to be still alive, but injured, perhaps seriously. That's the 'canon' position anyway.
Bart:
     It makes sense that Lavender would be affected the same way "Beel" 
was. Not a werewolf, but with some mild wolfish characteristics, and 
perhaps some scars that won't heal.

     Bart



From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 01:01:33 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 01:01:33 -0000
Subject: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <51AA690A.1020303@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <koe5hd+tmbm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192379




--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 6/1/2013 8:33 AM, John wrote:
> > In the written text at the Battle of Hogwarts whilst fighting bravely Lavender Brown fell from a balcony and as she lay injured was then attacked by Fenrir Greyback, but thankfully and a little ironically Hermione Granger seeing what happened blasted him off of her former love rival with a spell. When last 'reported' by Jo she was known to be still alive, but injured, perhaps seriously. That's the 'canon' position anyway.
>
> Bart:
>      It makes sense that Lavender would be affected the same way
> "Beel" was. Not a werewolf, but with some mild wolfish
> characteristics, and perhaps some scars that won't heal.
>
>      Bart
>


Hi Bart, thanks for your reply and input.

What you suggest is certainly very possible and a perfectly valid idea.

The only thing that makes it only a possibility, rather than a certainty is that the 'conversion' of a normal human to a werewolf following an attack seems a bit of a 'lottery', one possibly influenced by the severity of an assault and a degree of variability in the success of treatments applied afterwards.

Also it may be influenced by whether or not a werewolf is completely transformed when it attacks and perhaps also some esoteric magical factors like the exact moon phase, since it seems Fenrir perhaps is one of those few werewolves who can transform at will and is not 'phase locked' to the lunar cycle.

Bill Weasley was badly gauged in the face by Greyback for sure, but this attack, though bad, was not nearly as life threatening or physically intrusive as those suffered by Lavender Brown or Remus Lupin carried out by the same individual. Bill also received almost immediate expert treatment following his attack, which may have limited it's after effects.

Lavender however might have experienced some delay before treatment commenced, due to the pressure of the number of casualties that must have been building up due to the fighting. Maybe these variables might have meant that she either died or became a full blown werewolf instead, but as I said I prefer to think she lived and put her new found abilities due to her 'affliction' to good use, working as a 'specialist Auror' under Harry's command when she recovered to full fitness.

Any more thoughts anyone?

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From vikingwoman at shaw.ca  Sun Jun  2 01:03:01 2013
From: vikingwoman at shaw.ca (Charla)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 18:03:01 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <kocpn7+q75g@eGroups.com>
References: <kocpn7+q75g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <A7B9C63B6AEC4DAF880B89D2C2A67B9A@CHARLADESKTOP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192380

 
  
> John:
> Hi all.
An oldish controversy this, but one Jo Rowling has not fully clarified from
what she wrote in the final book.

> In the written text at the Battle of Hogwarts whilst fighting bravely
Lavender Brown fell from a balcony and as she lay injured was then attacked
by Fenrir Greyback, but thankfully and a little ironically Hermione Granger
seeing what happened blasted him off of her former love rival with a spell.
When last 'reported' by Jo she was known to be still alive, but injured,
perhaps seriously. That's the 'canon' position anyway.

> However, in the final movie Steve Kloves, the screenwriter took it upon
himself to 'kill her off' and we see her dead body being covered up. :o(

<snip>

> So now to the question I posed, what happened next? Did she live, die or
live and become a werewolf. As I said JKR left it undefined. The werewolf
idea is one many accept as right, since in the description of the attack on
her by Fenrir Greyback he is described by onlookers as being a 'grey blur'
who leaps on her and begins to maul her. Does this mean he was transformed
to his werewolf form or simply moved very fast? If he was transformed she
might well become a werewolf, or like Bill Weasley, another of Greyback's
victims, simply acquire some scars and a few 'wolfish traits' such as a
liking for virtually raw meat.

> Then again if Greyback was not in werewolf form then she might simply have
some scars and also injuries from her fall needing curing by Poppy and her
volunteer helpers, then gone on to live a fairly 'normal' witch's life.

> The other option is of course that she simply died after succumbing to her
injuries, as Steve Kloves seems to think and wrote into the screenplay.

<snip>

> So what do you think? Live, dead or werewolf why not let me know what you believe?


Charla:
Hi John, 

I would think Lavender ended up with some scars on the neck and would enjoy meat more ..   

The one thing I really objected to was the breaking of the Elder wand in the
movie..  I still see very little point to that in the movie..  The book has
it returned to Dumbledore grave.  It also preserves the quest for the Deadly
Hallows in the future..by others.

I just wish Jo would write more books for the young Potters and Weasleys to be in..  

 

     Kind Wishes,

         Charla 







From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 01:28:58 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 01:28:58 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <51AA0BBB.1010507@ns.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <koe74q+u0t0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192381


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, DenEde <dehippern at ...> wrote:
>
> Welcome John (Oriondruid),
>
> I am Canadian and you are correct that the Canadian versions of the
> audio books are true to the book. Remember the first one was published
> in Canada by Raintree. We use the same spellings as the rest of the
> Commonwealth. It was disappointing when I picked up one of the books
> for a grandchild, while vacationing in Florida, to discover the
> differences.
>
> Wonder what they think when they go to the movies and everything is
> very British?
>
> I got the audio books for my husband to listen to in the car and so my
> vote is for Stephen Fry.
>
> Mumra
>

Hi there.
Thank you for the kind welcome and support of my preference for Stephen Fry's readings. I guess it is a personal choice matter as to whose voice one prefers to hear reading the Harry Potter stories, and I agree that Jim Dale did make a very good and inventive reader with perhaps a more 'theatrical' and creative multi voice style. However I prefer listening to the more 'classically' English voice of Stephen Fry reading these quintessentially British stories in their original, un-mucked about with language. Even if Stephen's expressive range is more limited it still exceeds Ron Weasley's emotional one, which as we all know is the size of a teaspoon.:o)

But there you go, like some of us Brits say, Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice! ;o)
Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).





From jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com  Sun Jun  2 12:25:57 2013
From: jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com (Jeanine Banthorpe)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 13:25:57 +0100 (BST)
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
Message-ID: <1370175957.40644.YahooMailNeo@web87402.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192382

Well what a small world - I'm in Torquay.
?
And I had always assumed most people on this site were British -seems I was wrong. I just put down the US spellings that crop up in posts to its being the default setting?for spellcheckers these days.
?
Age, schmage. Age is no barrier to immersion in the Wizarding World.

Jeanine




From margdean56 at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 21:55:47 2013
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 15:55:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is
 she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <koe5hd+tmbm@eGroups.com>
References: <51AA690A.1020303@moosewise.com>
	<koe5hd+tmbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2gbLirXMpQHx+T4EXH=V9dkP3kmv8KYuStCzzug32EpdRKSA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192383

My answer would be yes, she becomes a werewolf.  Why?  Because that has far
more story possibilities than the other alternatives, that's why!  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 00:48:42 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 00:48:42 -0000
Subject: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2gbLirXMpQHx+T4EXH=V9dkP3kmv8KYuStCzzug32EpdRKSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <kogp5a+d6nd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192384

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Dean <margdean56 at ...> wrote:
>
> My answer would be yes, she becomes a werewolf.  Why?  Because that
> has far more story possibilities than the other alternatives,
> that's why!  :)


Hi Margret, thank you for your post.
Yes, I tend to agree, there are only so many variations on a 'death scene' for a book/film character that fan writers can create before repetition sets in. Indeed in certain genres this is becoming something of a problem. In particular I am thinking of Hunger Games fan fics, which seem to cluster around just a handful of book/movie events. Prime ones being the deaths of Rue, Clove, Foxface, and to a lesser extent Prim.

It's got to the point where I feel that if I read another 'identikit' story about poor little Rue's murder, (tragic and emotional as it is), my eyeballs will explode! :o)

Similarly Clove's death scene is also far to 'overwritten' and these events I now feel are virtually 'mined out'. :o(

That said a few months back I wrote a Clove's death story just to see if a new 'angle' was even still possible. It is but in order to get the new perspective I 'cheated', so as not to make the story the same as a hundred or more others.

How did you 'cheat' do I hear you ask? Well that's my secret and in any case is hard to explain the twist, I'd need to repost the whole story here to show what I did.  But if you look up my profile's story list on a certain mega huge fan fiction site you'll find out by reading the story listed there called The Reawakening. ;o)

As to the HP character who after all is central to this thread, my darling Lavender Brown, certainly there are many stories that can and have been written about her non canon 'death' at the Battle of Hogwarts, many of which are very good, but as I said above and as you pointed out the scope for writers to be creative is far wider if one postulates that she survived, werewolf or not.

In my previous posts on this thread I mentioned some stories regarding the later possibility, that she survived but became a werewolf and the writers whose work goes along those lines that I praised have both written several amazing tales about her.

For Lavender to survive without becoming a werewolf, maybe in a condition similar to that of Bill Weasley is all well and good,indeed I've read several somewhat 'angsty' tales about this once beautiful but now scarred version of Lavender after the Battle. But though several such tales are often very good, once again the scope to write such stories is a lot more limited I feel and I therefore agree with your comment.

That's why I prefer to think of this favourite character of mine as alive and well, if perhaps a little furrier once a month than she used to be. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 01:51:20 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 01:51:20 -0000
Subject: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <A7B9C63B6AEC4DAF880B89D2C2A67B9A@CHARLADESKTOP>
Message-ID: <kogsqo+e225@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192385






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Charla" <vikingwoman at ...> wrote:

> <snip>
> 
> 
> Charla:
> Hi John, 
> 
> I would think Lavender ended up with some scars on the neck and would enjoy meat more ..   
> 
> The one thing I really objected to was the breaking of the Elder wand in the
> movie..  I still see very little point to that in the movie..  The book has
> it returned to Dumbledore grave.  It also preserves the quest for the Deadly
> Hallows in the future..by others.
> 
> I just wish Jo would write more books for the young Potters and Weasleys to be in..  
> 
>  
> 
>      Kind Wishes,
> 
>          Charla
>


Hi Charla, thanks for the reply.
That is certainly one possibility, that she took on some werewolf traits but never fully became one, sadly though remaining badly scarred by Greyback's attack.

Several fan fics suggest this and exploit that plot idea and some are excellent. Indeed two of my own tales use that 'version' of Lavender (neither of which I'm very satisfied with by the way, perhaps my heart just isn't in writing about a Lavender Brown that is just a scarred girl with a liking for raw meat).

For the reasons I explained in other posts to have her be a 'full' werewolf gives much more imagination room' to write about her character post war. That's the Lavender that I love to read and write about, not least because she can severely kick some Dark Wizard bottom in her wolf form.;o)

Please don't get me started again Charla about Steve Kloves and his godawful screenplay for DH2! Oh, okay then lets talk about the pile of poo, major screw-up or what? :o)

At least the majority of it, the part set after the dragon escape from Gringotts. Once the trio escape from Bellatrix's vault it starts to go weird and pretty soon it's in a galaxy far far away from anything Jo ever wrote! :o(

So much is rewritten, subtracted, added, relocated and messed about with in general compared to the book text it is almost unrecognisable!

As I said earlier despite it all there are actually some bits of the film I like and to mention another, that being the encounter between Harry and Helena Ravenclaw's ghost, I must admit that scene I liked a lot.  Indeed I liked Helena as a character so much I was inspired to write The Ghost and the Machine, a post Battle and post Hogwarts reconstruction story that features her moving on into a far happier stage of her ghostly 'afterlife'. 

But as to the ending of the 'main story', that being the snapping of the Elder Wand, it was crass and empty headed, simplistic and weak in the extreme. To sum it up in one word without using the rude ones that might suit it better let's just say it is Pathetic! :o(

To deal directly with the points in your post Charla, I fully agreed with you when you wrote....

"The one thing I really objected to was the breaking of the Elder wand in the movie..  I still see very little point to that in the movie."

Amen to that I say, as I said above it was plain stupid and a major anticlimax. :o(

Also I completely agree whith you when you wrote....

"The book has it returned to Dumbledore grave.  It also preserves the quest for the Deadly Hallows in the future..by others."

A well made and very true point. Indeed at present an American fan fiction author friend of mine has a fine story set a thousand years post the events in the books. The plot of which revolves around that very idea, featuring a young female descendant of Harry who whilst at Hogwarts is forced into battling to find and either assume control over or destroy the Hallows, to prevent them being misused by her own evil mother. If you are interested in reading it then yet again the story is posted online at the same mega Fanfiction site I post on and is called All That Once Was Lost. It can be found via the website's story search feature.

Well that's enough trashing DH2, or the main film at least, what about the Epilogue do I hear asked? ;o)

As to that final bit, well it is what it is, pretty 'canon', no surprises and fairly well done. As well at least as it is possible to do it using young actors made up to look much older, which would always have been a hard trick to pull off. At least they tried and it almost works. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 02:06:54 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 02:06:54 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <1370175957.40644.YahooMailNeo@web87402.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <kogtnu+48tt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192386


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jeanine Banthorpe <jeanine.banthorpe at ...> wrote:
>
> Well what a small world - I'm in Torquay.
> ?
> And I had always assumed most people on this site were British -seems I was wrong. I just put down the US spellings that crop up in posts to its being the default setting?for spellcheckers these days.
> ?
> Age, schmage. Age is no barrier to immersion in the Wizarding World.
>
> Jeanine


Hi Jeanine.
I agree age is not an issue in the HP community in general. As a fan writer I correspond by PM's with writers of all ages right around the world and be they young or old almost all have strong and positive views and interesting ideas and insights to contribute. But in our 'muggle world' some people still seem to look at you askance, assuming you're a bit weird for liking Jo's stories. Never mind though, it's their loss! :o)

Internet groups such as this tend to be international and cluster around a shared interest and (almost)common language, not shared geography. As I said earlier and also in my separate 'intro post', I refuse to bow to the tyranny of US English spell checker software and don't give a damn how many red lines they want to place under my perfectly good UK spellings! :o) A stubborn old git, that's me. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Jun  3 03:07:52 2013
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 03:07:52 -0000
Subject: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <51AA690A.1020303@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <koh1a8+3360@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192387



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 6/1/2013 8:33 AM, John wrote:
> > In the written text at the Battle of Hogwarts whilst fighting bravely Lavender Brown fell from a balcony and as she lay injured was then attacked by Fenrir Greyback, but thankfully and a little ironically Hermione Granger seeing what happened blasted him off of her former love rival with a spell. When last 'reported' by Jo she was known to be still alive, but injured, perhaps seriously. That's the 'canon' position anyway.
> Bart:
>      It makes sense that Lavender would be affected the same way "Beel" 
> was. Not a werewolf, but with some mild wolfish characteristics, and 
> perhaps some scars that won't heal.
> 
>      Bart
>
Nikkalmati

Remember that Bill was so terribly scarred that Molly thought Fleur would never marry him.  I shudder to think of Lavender living with severe scars on her face.  She would have a difficult time adapting (not like Bill whose wife is beautiful enough for both of them).

Nikkalmati
Pleased to meet you John




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Jun  3 03:58:44 2013
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 03:58:44 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <koal0b+hbqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <koh49k+tntv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192388



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John (Oriondruid)
> 
>> 
>> 
> I feel that the 'alterations' whilst perhaps making comprehension of meanings easier for young American readers is actually a bit condescending. It almost amounts to saying 'You're not intelligent enough to work this out sweety'. :o(
> 
> C'mon, kids these days are so savvy about things and if they are confused by a UK English words or phrases, like say jumper or car park  they are perfectly capable of looking it up online, and by so doing will actually learn something useful about life and language in the UK. As to adding actual American 'substitutions', such as switching sidewalk for pavement that is just absurd! Why not simply relocate the whole story to New England, modify the plotline, characterisation and dialogue accordingly and get it over with? ;o)
>

Nikkalmati

Well, when Scholastic started, they had no idea whether the books woud go over at all and they wanted to make things as easy as possible and less "strange".  I understand your being upset, because it implies that the American version is the "right" one and the story had to be corrected.  That makes the changes condescending to the Brits.  I doubt they thought about it that way.  They just wanted to make the books easy and popular.  It turns out they underestimated the children of the US.  It is not all that different anyway is it?

  I did want to point out that as a direct result of HP (IMHO) various British words and phrases have migrated here to the US and have been seen in other contexts to the enrichment of our common language.  (BTW where did "snark" come from if not from the UK?).

Nikkalmati

>John
     
> By the way, as I said in my intro post when I joined earlier today, I will continue to use UK English expressions and spelling when posting here, despite what all the little red lines beneath my 'misspellings' try and force me to do. :o)  I trust that everyone here, be they American, Brit or from wherever is quite capable of working out my meaning from the context and if not then try asking your kids, they might just surprise you with their grasp of 'Britspeak'. :o)
> 
>>
Nikkalmati

I don't seem to have a spell checker  when I do a reply or I don't know where it is.  Combine that with my gernerally poor spelling and I have a lot to ask forgiveness for from the group.  : ).  So, don't worry about any little variations here and there.  I was surprised to hear that spell check only comes in an American format.  How rude!

Nikkalmati




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Mon Jun  3 05:28:10 2013
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 01:28:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
References: <kogp5a+d6nd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AFB591B6A0C4A75884BA1C5737AF7D8@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 192389

John,
  We now know that you're a fan of Lavender, but all this time I just assumed she died, if not from the fall, at least from the bite. 
  The movie Lavender was not at all how I pictured her in the books, and as with so many movies before and since, I prefer to read in my mind as well as on the page.  
  Dorothy

  From: John 
  Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 8:48 PM

  As to the HP character who after all is central to this thread, my darling Lavender Brown, certainly there are many stories that can and have been written about her non canon 'death' at the Battle of Hogwarts, many of which are very good, but as I said above and as you pointed out the scope for writers to be creative is far wider if one postulates that she survived, werewolf or not.

  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcduffy23 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 18:50:55 2013
From: kcduffy23 at yahoo.com (Kevin)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:50:55 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <1370175957.40644.YahooMailNeo@web87402.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <koioif+o2sg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192390

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jeanine Banthorpe <jeanine.banthorpe at ...> wrote:
>
> Well what a small world - I'm in Torquay.
> ?
> And I had always assumed most people on this site were British -seems I was wrong. I just put down the US spellings that crop up in posts to its being the default setting?for spellcheckers these days.
> ?
> Age, schmage. Age is no barrier to immersion in the Wizarding World.
>
> Jeanine


Hi John, Jeanine and others.  Glad to see your comments.  I'm new to this site.  Simon introd me to the Queen and Joann in 1996. Joann, her daughter and I originated the first three books. Faith Hill is now singing a song I wrote her "This Kiss" on GAC, Great American country cable videos.  I live just south of Portland, Oregon and will look forward to your activities and comments.

Kevin




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 22:13:04 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 22:13:04 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <koioif+o2sg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <koj4dg+ja5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192391

> <snip>
> Hi John, Jeanine and others.  Glad to see your comments.  I'm new to this site.  Simon introd me to the Queen and Joann in 1996. Joann, her daughter and I originated the first three books. Faith Hill is now singing a song I wrote her "This Kiss" on GAC, Great American country cable videos.  I live just south of Portland, Oregon and will look forward to your activities and comments.
>
> Kevin


Hello Kevin.
Thank you for the warm welcome. I am just beginning over again making appearances on message boards and groups and this one was one which caught my eye as being exactly what I was looking for.

Some years back I was on several boards/groups but they were mostly Druidic or eco oriented and I got sick of the egos and politics that began to hijack them.  So I bailed out and developed instead a liking for amateur writing and then began communicating almost exclusively by PM's and emails with my amateur writer friends and collaborators.

This group is therefore my first 'toe in the water' of the message board scene since those previous events and I don't think I could have chosen a better or friendlier place to start 'coming out of my shell'.  and posting publicly again. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 22:42:35 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 22:42:35 -0000
Subject: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <3AFB591B6A0C4A75884BA1C5737AF7D8@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <koj64r+bs9s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192392


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorothy dankanyin" <ddankanyin at ...> wrote:
>
> John,
>   We now know that you're a fan of Lavender, but all this time I just assumed she died, if not from the fall, at least from the bite.
>   The movie Lavender was not at all how I pictured her in the books, and as with so many movies before and since, I prefer to read in my mind as well as on the page.
>   Dorothy


Hi Dorothy.

There are several mysteries and controversies surrounding the lovely Ms. Brown. Jo never stated Lavender's racial profile for instance and in the early movies she is actually black. A row erupted among many fans when in HBP she was portrayed by a white girl instead, that new cast member being Jessie Cave. There were suggestions of racism and that some in the casting and production offices were unhappy about the romantic scenes between Ron and Lavender being interacial. Is this true? I doubt we'll ever know, but as I said Jo never said anything about Lavender's race one way or another and Jessie did a great job in HBP and DH2 portraying Lavender very well.

When I pictured her when reading the books she was white, as I had no clues to suggest otherwise. Also now I still see her as such, based on the several excellent fan fiction stories I have read about her, by amateur writers so much better than me and whose work I am in awe of.

Certainly my 'visualisation' of Lavender is not based on racism and I am delighted to say, for instance, that Angelina Johnson is in fact well played by two two lovely young black actresses in the movies.

Also of course the powerful role of Kingsley Shacklebolt, (Auror and 'Minister in waiting') is played by the excellent black male actor George Harris with great 'gravitas' and dignity. I know I'd vote for him to be Minister. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).





From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Jun  4 00:06:41 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:06:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is
 she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <koj64r+bs9s@eGroups.com>
References: <koj64r+bs9s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51AD2F91.1030707@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192393

On 6/3/2013 6:42 PM, John wrote:
> There are several mysteries and controversies surrounding the lovely 
> Ms. Brown. Jo never stated Lavender's racial profile for instance and 
> in the early movies she is actually black. A row erupted among many 
> fans when in HBP she was portrayed by a white girl instead, that new 
> cast member being Jessie Cave. There were suggestions of racism and 
> that some in the casting and production offices were unhappy about the 
> romantic scenes between Ron and Lavender being interacial. Is this 
> true? I doubt we'll ever know, but as I said Jo never said anything 
> about Lavender's race one way or another and Jessie did a great job in 
> HBP and DH2 portraying Lavender very well. When I pictured her when 
> reading the books she was white, as I had no clues to suggest otherwise.

Bart:
     Based on experience in several subcultures, very often being a 
member of the subculture reaches a stage where a fellow member of that 
subculture just is a member, and little details like what is commonly 
called "race" become irrelevant. I recall frequently visiting the home 
of a friend, where there were a lot of similarly minded people from the 
same town frequently visiting as well. I had a consulting job in a 
nearby town, and one of the employees mentioned that she was thinking of 
moving closer to work. I recommended my friend's town, and she gave me a 
very funny look, and told me that she probably wouldn't want to live 
there. Another co-worker told me why: apparently, the town was primarily 
populated African-Americans. It was not until that moment that it 
occurred to me that, over the years, about 80% of the people who 
frequented my friend's house were also of African descent.

     Therefore, especially in the sparsely populated WW (there have been 
previous discussions about the sized of the wizarding population, 
leading to my repeating my oft-used line, "There are three kinds of 
people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't." - JKR), 
matters like skin color and national origin just aren't terribly 
important, as long as you're a wizard/witch.

     Bart



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jun  4 16:42:09 2013
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 16:42:09 -0000
Subject: A functional cloak of invisibility ? what?
In-Reply-To: <koboev+se0h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kol5d1+gg3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192394



John:
> Hi everyone.
> 
> As Clarkes Third Law states....
> 
> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
> 
> This statement is also probably reversible, but I have yet to witness any indisputably genuine advanced magic and so cannot be sure this is the case. :o)


Pippin:
::waves to all the new posters:: welcome!

Ah, but there is genuinely advanced magic in the Potterverse, and so for the purposes of testing Clark's law and your proposed corollary,  we may regard Rowling's work as a thought experiment. 

We see that Muggles, and even Wizards on occasion, have difficulty in distinguishing Muggle technology from magic, in fact the whole premise of Wizarding Secrecy is that magic must at all times be indistinguishable by Muggles. 

But we also see that technological advancement is not particularly relevant to Muggles in  making the distinction. Clark's Third Law neglects the far more important roles of context and social norms. 

Vernon does not see Dudley's Playstation as magical, though, for its day, it is frightfully advanced. (The more so as JKR is a bit confused with her timeline, LOL) It might as well be powered by mysterious forces for all that someone like Vernon could tell you how it actually works. But that doesn't bother him. Playstations are "normal". 

OTOH, Vernon locks up Harry's  robes along with his spellbooks, wand and other devices, though the robes are low tech and  display no magical properties whatever. They come from the wizarding world,  and therefore they must be dangerous, even though he knows that "normal" people do occasionally dress up in funny clothes. 

 In the seventh book, Vernon doesn't realize that the collapsed bridge and devastated towns he hears about on the news are *not* normal, although the magic required to do this was highly advanced, far beyond anything Harry could have managed at the age when he was dreaming of flying motorcycles and blowing up Aunt Marge. 

  Wizards do indeed have a technology of their own: the wands, spells, broomsticks and other  "means of exploiting resources in order to obtain a result" . And this technology can be considered advanced if  it produces more results with the same resources or the same results with fewer resources. Harry's Nimbus 2000 is an advance in technology, as  is the Prince's book. 

Wizards also have a resource which Muggles do not. This resource is  also, confusingly,  called "magic" in the books: the innate ability of wizards and others  to make "things happen" as Hagrid puts it.  

We have a case in which the result obtained by a technological advance in magic is attributed instead to the innate  ability of the wizard-- when Snape denies that Harry's success in potions could be the result of good training, Slughorn assumes that it's due to "natural ability".  Truth is, it's all down to Snape's improved techniques. In this case, then, Clark's Third Law is confirmed. 

It's interesting that Slughorn never even suspects that improved technique could be the cause. I think wizards have a bias against technical innovations except perhaps in their games and sports -- and the wizard who gets an improved result because he's magically powerful gets more respect than the one who develops a better method. This might be why Snape seems to have kept his potion-making improvements secret instead of taking credit for them at the time.

It's interesting also that Snape keeps trying to tell both Harry and  Neville, not very nicely, that  their potion failures are due to mistakes in technique, while they both miss the point and  think it's all because they're   not magical enough. On the other hand,
Harry's failure to learn Occlumency is, according to JKR, the result of a genuine lack of ability, while Snape insists that Harry fails because he is refusing to practice the technique (he is, but only because it doesn't work for him.)

So, to get back to your point, if we did make a functional invisibility cloak sooner than we think possible, but   by "normal" means (a big budget research lab, or a tinkerer in a garage), it's unlikely, on the evidence of Rowling's thought experiment,  that anyone would think it was magical. If it was presented to us by someone claiming to be a wizard, we'd probably think it was a fraud, unless social norms altered towards the acceptance of magic.

Pippin








From oriondruid at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 12:13:13 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 12:13:13 -0000
Subject: Lavender Brown, dead or alive? If alive is she a now a werewolf?
In-Reply-To: <51AD2F91.1030707@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <koklkp+dinn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192395


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>

> Bart:
>      Based on experience in several subcultures, very often being a
> member of the subculture reaches a stage where a fellow member of that
> subculture just is a member, and little details like what is commonly
> called "race" become irrelevant. I recall frequently visiting the home
> of a friend, where there were a lot of similarly minded people from the
> same town frequently visiting as well. I had a consulting job in a
> nearby town, and one of the employees mentioned that she was thinking of
> moving closer to work. I recommended my friend's town, and she gave me a
> very funny look, and told me that she probably wouldn't want to live
> there. Another co-worker told me why: apparently, the town was primarily
> populated African-Americans. It was not until that moment that it
> occurred to me that, over the years, about 80% of the people who
> frequented my friend's house were also of African descent.
>
>      Therefore, especially in the sparsely populated WW (there have been
> previous discussions about the sized of the wizarding population,
> leading to my repeating my oft-used line, "There are three kinds of
> people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't." - JKR),
> matters like skin color and national origin just aren't terribly
> important, as long as you're a wizard/witch.
>
>      Bart



Thanks for that Bart.

I agree given a focal point in a common interest, viewpoint or shared cultural factor in a 'subculture' racial differences thankfully often cease to matter and what people share in common is far more important.

An obvious example being religion, which although it is often divisive and 'factional' (sadly all too often up to the point of horrendous violence) it does also show that people of different races are capable of sharing a common belief and coming together in peace, at least within a given 'sect' is possible.

I myself have personally experienced this. Whilst I was more 'actively' Pagan and a Druid (which I still am, only less intensely so) several years back I participated in several 'Open Ceremonies' in places as diverse as the great stone circle at Avebury, Wiltshire (which is so huge it surrounds part of the village and has the village pub at it's center), also Stonehenge (obviously) but among which were also included several urban venues, such as the brilliant, quirky and libertarian Conway Hall, in Red Lion Square, Central London.

Being of an 'interfaith' nature these gatherings often involved people of many differing creeds and spiritual viewpoints. In our Druid circles we all 'Swear By Peace And Love To Stand, Heart To Heart And Hand In Hand'. Would that all humanity could do the same!
Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 12:47:00 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 12:47:00 -0000
Subject: Nagini
In-Reply-To: <1357680406.65513.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <koknk4+251a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192396


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, christine attwood <caattwood at ...> wrote:
>
> That's the first I've heard of it!
>
> christine.


Me too, I've never heard that anywhere and in any case I thought that snake either headed off away from the zoo, trying to get back to it's 'ancestral homeland' in Burma or that perhaps most likely it might have got recaptured.

In any case as has been pointed out Boa's are non venomous and kill by constriction alone and Nagini is venomous, but of a phenomenal size far beyond any venomous species that exists, possibly therefore being a magical species?

In any case, just for info about how weird I am, I myself wrote a very short but I'm fairly sure unique fan fic about Nagini's 'afterlife' once Neville had killed her. It's posted online and is called The Slave. It sees Nagini's subjugation as Lord Voldemort's 'pet' and his making of her into a Horcrux as being little better than enslavement, even if in an odd way she was the only other living creature in the world he cared about.

Yep, that's right I wrote a sympathetic story about a killer carniverous snake's ghost! Can't help myself sometimes, I get 'bitten' myself by by weird 'plot bunnies' and have to write this stuff! Somebody send for the men with the straight jackets! :o)
Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 13:24:51 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 13:24:51 -0000
Subject: Did JKR leave herself some 'wiggle room', by not destroying the Deathly Hallows.
Message-ID: <kokpr3+q188@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192397

Hi All.

At the end of the Harry Potter books all three Deathly Hallows still exist. The Invisibility Cloak is obviously still in Harry's possession, The Elder Wand returned to Dumbledore's grave and only the Resurrection Stone is not precisely located, having been dropped by Harry in the forest. It also however still exists and could be found.

Jo Rowling is a stickler for details and might well have left all three Hallows still intact for a reason. Even despite the Elder Wand's ridiculously crass destruction in the final movie in the real story it is in fact still intact. That silly scene showing Harry simply snapping it was just one of Steve Kloves' many unwelcome 'alterations' which took the plot off into totally AU (Alternate Universe) realms.

Jo has never said she absolutely never would write a sequel to the Potter series, indeed at the Trafalgar Square premiere of the final movie, at which I am delighted to say I was one face in the huge crowd on that lovely sunny day, she joked (I think it was a joke anyway) that in the face of all the love her fans there showed to her she might 'have to write another'. 

So maybe she left the Hallows intact so that future generations of wizards and witches can start the quest for them once again. Maybe James Sirius Potter, Rose Weasley and Scorpius Malfoy have some great adventures ahead of them as a new 'golden trio'and perhaps, please, please, please Jo, it's not 'over' after all? We can always hope so anyway. :o)

In any case in the fan  fiction community there are some who have already seem the possibilities and in particular one excellent writer I know (who's far better than me) who is posting a fascinating story at present called All That Once Was Lost about precisely this subject. In her brilliant story much time has elapsed (a thousand years) and a distant female descendant of Harry Potter is embroiled with her evil absentee mother in a battle over the reuniting of the Hallows. So whether JKR plans it or not, these fascinating objects are still exerting their influence in the Wizarding World many years later. :o)

What do you think, did Jo leave herself some 'wiggle room' for future Hogwarts tales?

Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid).




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Jun  5 02:55:09 2013
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 02:55:09 -0000
Subject: Did JKR leave herself some 'wiggle room', by not destroying the Deathly Hallows.
In-Reply-To: <kokpr3+q188@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kom9ad+s0jb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192398



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
>
> Hi All.
> 
> At the end of the Harry Potter books all three Deathly Hallows still exist. The Invisibility Cloak is obviously still in Harry's possession, The Elder Wand returned to Dumbledore's grave and only the Resurrection Stone is not precisely located, having been dropped by Harry in the forest. It also however still exists and could be found.
> 
> Jo Rowling is a stickler for details and might well have left all three Hallows still intact for a reason. Even despite the Elder Wand's ridiculously crass destruction in the final movie in the real story it is in fact still intact. That silly scene showing Harry simply snapping it was just one of Steve Kloves' many unwelcome 'alterations' which took the plot off into totally AU (Alternate Universe) realms.
> 
> Jo has never said she absolutely never would write a sequel to the Potter series, indeed at the Trafalgar Square premiere of the final movie, at which I am delighted to say I was one face in the huge crowd on that lovely sunny day, she joked (I think it was a joke anyway) that in the face of all the love her fans there showed to her she might 'have to write another'. 
> 
> So maybe she left the Hallows intact so that future generations of wizards and witches can start the quest for them once again. Maybe James Sirius Potter, Rose Weasley and Scorpius Malfoy have some great adventures ahead of them as a new 'golden trio'and perhaps, please, please, please Jo, it's not 'over' after all? We can always hope so anyway. :o)
> 
> In any case in the fan  fiction community there are some who have already seem the possibilities and in particular one excellent writer I know (who's far better than me) who is posting a fascinating story at present called All That Once Was Lost about precisely this subject. In her brilliant story much time has elapsed (a thousand years) and a distant female descendant of Harry Potter is embroiled with her evil absentee mother in a battle over the reuniting of the Hallows. So whether JKR plans it or not, these fascinating objects are still exerting their influence in the Wizarding World many years later. :o)
> 
> What do you think, did Jo leave herself some 'wiggle room' for future Hogwarts tales?
> 
> Many Blessings All.
> John, (Oriondruid).
>
Nikkalmati

I doubt that she had the possibiliity of a sequel in mind.  She seemed very sure at the time that it was over.  (I would never predict, however, that she will not revisit the WW, and I hope she does).  I do think she wanted the reader to understand that it is never over.  Also, that the Hallows represent eternal verities and that man will always wish for immortality and be seduced by his (or her) desires.

Nikkalmati




From cresorchid at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 00:57:28 2013
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 19:57:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nagini
In-Reply-To: <koknk4+251a@eGroups.com>
References: <1357680406.65513.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<koknk4+251a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0Nje78PRnDrpxOM4he3e7oDAD9xxm0BE8Bh8CNzgjKYPA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192399

John wrote:
In any case as has been pointed out Boa's are non venomous and kill by
constriction alone and Nagini is venomous, but of a phenomenal size far
beyond any venomous species that exists, possibly therefore being a magical
species?

Crescent:
The "magical/religious" snakes of India are called Naga. I read somewhere
(fanfiction) or assumed that Nagini was named for these snake and that she
probably came from a species from India, but was truly magical. Not sure
what the facts are though.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kckriger at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 07:09:36 2013
From: kckriger at yahoo.com (ken krieger)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 00:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did JKR leave herself some 'wiggle room', by not destroying the Deathly Hallows.
In-Reply-To: <kom9ad+s0jb@eGroups.com>
References: <kokpr3+q188@eGroups.com> <kom9ad+s0jb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1370416176.3162.YahooMailNeo@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192400

> John <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
> Hi All.
>
> At the end of the Harry Potter books all three Deathly Hallows still exist. The Invisibility Cloak is obviously still in Harry's possession, The Elder Wand returned to Dumbledore's grave and only the Resurrection Stone is not precisely located, having been dropped by Harry in the forest. It also however still exists and could be found. <snip>
>


> Nikkalmati:
> <snip> Also, that the Hallows represent eternal verities and that man will always wish for immortality and be seduced by his (or her) desires.
>


Ken:
Hi All
   I believe Harry Potter is the master of the Deathly Hallows. The Invisibility Cloak, The Resurrection Stone, even though he dropped it, and The Elder Wand was simply put in Dumbledore's Tomb. but all three are still his.



From margdean56 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 15:41:07 2013
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 09:41:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nagini
In-Reply-To: <CAPyU+0Nje78PRnDrpxOM4he3e7oDAD9xxm0BE8Bh8CNzgjKYPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1357680406.65513.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<koknk4+251a@eGroups.com>
	<CAPyU+0Nje78PRnDrpxOM4he3e7oDAD9xxm0BE8Bh8CNzgjKYPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2gbLhGdt97Va5cEhUwtOAGvzo1mF5Sca6My_6acsCzxMGC1w@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192401

On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Sandra Lynn <cresorchid at gmail.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
> John wrote:
> In any case as has been pointed out Boa's are non venomous and kill by
> constriction alone and Nagini is venomous, but of a phenomenal size far
> beyond any venomous species that exists, possibly therefore being a magical
> species?
>
> Crescent:
> The "magical/religious" snakes of India are called Naga. I read somewhere
> (fanfiction) or assumed that Nagini was named for these snake and that she
> probably came from a species from India, but was truly magical. Not sure
> what the facts are though.
>

In Rudyard Kipling's "Rikki-Tikki-Tavi" the male and female cobras are Nag
and Nagaina respectively.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>


>
>    .
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 10:38:26 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 10:38:26 -0000
Subject: Did JKR leave herself some 'wiggle room', by not destroying the Deathly Hallows.
In-Reply-To: <1370416176.3162.YahooMailNeo@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <kon4f2+u661@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192402


> > John <oriondruid@> wrote:
> > Hi All.
> >
> > At the end of the Harry Potter books all three Deathly Hallows still exist. The Invisibility Cloak is obviously still in Harry's possession, The Elder Wand returned to Dumbledore's grave and only the Resurrection Stone is not precisely located, having been dropped by Harry in the forest. It also however still exists and could be found. <snip>
> >
> > Nikkalmati:
> > <snip> Also, that the Hallows represent eternal verities and that man will always wish for immortality and be seduced by his (or her) desires.
> >
>
> Ken:
> Hi All
>    I believe Harry Potter is the master of the Deathly Hallows. The Invisibility Cloak, The Resurrection Stone, even though he dropped it, and The Elder Wand was simply put in Dumbledore's Tomb. but all three are still his.
>


Hi Nikkalmati and Ken.

Nikkalmati...Yes, the Hallows represent eternal verities and that is one reason why Harry snapping the wand at the end of the 'main' part of the final movie was so crass and ridiculous. Indeed I very much doubt that he would actually have been able to do so, since as unlike 'ordinary' magic wands The Elder Wand possess magic in itself, it is not just a  director and controller for an individual's personal magic power but amplifies and adds to it. I suspect that the wand is more than capable of defending itself against such a simplistic attack.

Wisely Jo left the door open for herself and even others such as fan writers, whom she is very generous towards in permitting us to write not for profit stories set in her 'universe'. But as I said earlier she did actually joke at the final movie premier about perhaps writing more one day, and who knows, she may come to miss Hogwarts after a few years. Let's hope so. ;o)

Ken...I agree, Harry will technically remain master of the Elder Wand, Cloak and Stone as long as he remains undefeated. Even though he wisely chooses no longer to exercise the power of the Wand or Stone after the Battle he might well continue to use the somewhat more benign powers of the cloak and pass it on to one of his children, as seems customary. Harry also remains the Master of Death as long as he remains able to bring the three magical artefacts together, he wisely made this difficult by placing the wand shielded by protective spells back in Dumbledore's grave and  dropping the stone in the forest and thus making it hard to find, even for himself, assuming it won't respond to a simple Accio uttered by him in the rough vicinity.

That is not to say, as in the case of the excellent fan fic All That Once Was Lost I previously mentioned, that the quest for the Deathly Hallows, (those eternal verities), could not be resumed by others, be they Harry's descendants or not and The Deathly Hallows once again be brought together, for good or ill.

Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 12:21:02 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 12:21:02 -0000
Subject: Future projections of Wizarding Society post war.
Message-ID: <konafe+5sp5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192403

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> Pippin:
> ::waves to all the new posters:: welcome!

>"I think wizards have a bias against technical innovations except perhaps in their games and sports -- and the wizard who gets an improved result because he's magically powerful gets more respect than the one who develops a better method."

Hi Pippin, thanks for the interesting and insightful post. This is however I think another topic from the strictly technical one of the Invisibility Cloak thread, being more 'sociological' in feel, so I have instituted a new topic if I may

To reply to the point in it quoted above, this situation certainly seems to be the case amongst most of Wizarding society, but this might well be one of the many things which undergo a degree of change following the war as the Wizarding World heals and inevitably is forced to take a look at itself and reform many old attitudes and unjust laws etc. 

Why do I think this likely to include a change in attitude to muggle technology and innovations in general? One simple reason, the rise in acceptance and influence of Muggleborn witches and wizards such as Hermione Granger, people who are fully capable of bridging both worlds, can understand and use muggle technology and see where in certain ways it can be superior to magical methods.

In my personal fan fiction future projection of post war Wizarding World I have written several stories featuring these changes and pointing out where Muggle technology might well be adopted, and why.

To start with I make an assumption, that the rate of magical children born to non magical families may tend to rise, as the possession of magic is a very strong 'survival trait' and therefore simple natural selection may play a part, assuming there is a genetic base for the ability to possess and utilise magic. If true these Muggleborns might well prove a spearhead for new attitudes to emerge.

I assume that due to their success in the war, their great ability and public adulation the 'Golden Trio' (I hate that phrase and so probably do they ;o)) will rise high in later life in the Wizarding World and I certainly see Hermione becoming Minister eventually.

The Muggleborns would know of and been raised using such technology as TV and Computers, both of which outperform the old Wizarding methods of Wizarding Wireless and the admin methods in the Ministry using flying 'paper dart' type memos and enchanted filing cabinets, neither of which are exactly examples of 'cutting edge'. :o)

The use of magic is known to have a detrimental effect on electronics but from what is described I strongly suspect any muggle scientist could easily find a way to shield these EMP type harmful effects out, in the same way as military hardware is 'hardened', maybe with the addition of 'shield charms' added to the device casings. Under Kingsley's 'reign' as Minister for Magic in a newly reformed and less hidebound and corrupt Ministry such research might well flourish and even a few muggle scientists might be secretly inducted for R&D projects.

If a way to make computers work for wizards were found then the Ministry would have a powerful and effective new administration tool. The use of mobile communications and portable computing devices too could propergate out from the muggleborns and become widely used, since owls are slow and Patronus messaging limited in functionality. You can't set up a Wizarding Facebook easily using magic for instance. :o)

In my future projection the use of electricity becomes more commonplace and even the rebuilt Hogwarts adopts it, as the previous candles, gas lights and oil lanterns were both health hazards and fire hazards. Even Dumbledore admitted once setting fire to his bed curtains, claiming it was an accident.

Indeed the idea of combining Wizarding and Muggle methods and abilities into a new 'hybrid' technology fascinates me. I see the possibilities for 'green energy' opening up, with muggle style essentially 'conventional' electricity alternators being driven by Wizard created 'perpetual motion' magically powered engines for instance.

There would be so much scope for change post war, much desperately needed not just in technical matters but also in wider Wizarding society. The Statue of Secrecy might also eventually have to go if the numbers of Muggleborns becomes very large, since so many muggles will come to know about magic anyway, through their children.

In a couple of my stories I write about this idea and suggest perhaps a Ministry authorised experiment in co-habitation might be tried, Maybe in places where there are already large 'colonies'of magical folk, like Godric's Hollow and/or Ottery St. Catchpole. I doubt that in these locations the 'revelation' that magical folk are living there amongst them would prove much of a shock to the local muggle populace and that over the centuries many minor acts of magic must have accidentally been observed and thus gone un-obliviated. Let's face it, muggles living there must know there are a lot of 'odd' folk about, but it doesn't seem to worry them much. Maybe 'Dursley Syndrome' is dying out amongst the muggle population, the 'witch burning times' are over and it's time to be more open?:o)

Another idea I had is that whilst rebuilding Hogwarts an additional new Senior Faculty building might be constructed, an autonomous Wizarding University teaching advanced courses in innovative magic beyond even NEWT level, open both to native and foreign students. Plus in addition the new hybrid muggle/magical techniques emerging would be taught to Charity Burbage Memorial Scholars, young, bright witches and wizards desperate to get one of the limited places available and ride the wave of changes happening in their world.

Also I see the need for training courses for teachers of magical learning which could be taught there. This idea came to me from getting the impression during GoF that the students of both Durmstrang Institute and Beauxbatons Academy were considerably better read, better behaved and more advance in their learning than those of an equivalent age at Hogwarts. In a sense this is not surprising as Hogwarts has no 'professional teachers', people seem to have been simply appointed to positions for their individual skill in a given field, with little thought given to their teaching skills and ability to inspire or relate to their pupils! I give you Professors Snape and Binns as prime examples of this silliness. As a teacher Snape would make a bloody good plasterer and as to Binns, well if you need a good sleep attend one of his lessons. :o)

Well this is getting a bit long and I'd like to hear other's thoughts and speculations on the post war Wizarding World and the shape it took.
Many Blessings All.
John, 







From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Jun  5 22:25:00 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 22:25:00 -0000
Subject: Nagini
In-Reply-To: <koknk4+251a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <koodrs+3mrm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192405



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, christine attwood <caattwood@> wrote:

christine
> > That's the first I've heard of it!

John:
> Me too, I've never heard that anywhere and in any case I thought that snake
either headed off away from the zoo, trying to get back to it's 'ancestral
homeland' in Burma or that perhaps most likely it might have got recaptured.

Geoff:
Just to be picky and set the record straight:

'The snake jabbed its tail at a little sign next to the glass. Harry peered
at it.
Boa Constrictor. Brazil.
"Was it nice there?"
The boa constrictor jabbed its tail at the sign again and Harry read on:
This specimen was bred in the zoo.....

...As the snake slid swiftly past him, Harry could have sworn a low hissing
voice said, "Brazil, here I come... Thanksss amigo."
(PS "The Vanishing Glass" p.26 UK edition)

Obviously, although the snake was born outside the country, its parentage
allowed it to hold a Brazilian passport.




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 22:50:37 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 22:50:37 -0000
Subject: Nagini
In-Reply-To: <koodrs+3mrm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <koofbt+btdo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192406



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
> 
> Geoff:
> Just to be picky and set the record straight:
> 
> 'The snake jabbed its tail at a little sign next to the glass. Harry peered
> at it.
> Boa Constrictor. Brazil.
> "Was it nice there?"
> The boa constrictor jabbed its tail at the sign again and Harry read on:
> This specimen was bred in the zoo.....
> 
> ...As the snake slid swiftly past him, Harry could have sworn a low hissing
> voice said, "Brazil, here I come... Thanksss amigo."
> (PS "The Vanishing Glass" p.26 UK edition)
> 
> Obviously, although the snake was born outside the country, its parentage
> allowed it to hold a Brazilian passport.
>

Hi Geoff.
Thanks for that correction, of course you are right, it is the usual problem of book story versus movie story. Sometimes my poor old brain can't remember which is which, somedays I feel older than Dr Who! :o)

For some reason the scriptwriter for the films just seemed to be compelled to make small and often irrelevant changes to the canon text in the screenplay. Why this was done in such a minor matter I have no idea. Maybe it's an ego thing, equivalent to 'marking his own territory', whatever it's damn silly and pointless. :o(

Later reworking of the books by Steve Kloves were generally not to bad, allowing for the fact that the story needs to be 'compressed' to make it fit a film, because as we all know no matter what they say, sometimes 'A word is worth a thousand pictures.' ;o)

However when it comes to the utterly unrecognisable mutation of the storyline in DH2 that's where Kloves and I part company. As I always say it is a total 'dogs breakfast' of a movie and so AU (Alternate Universe), it has little in common with the canon text, or Jo's intent when she wrote it. :o(

Anyway, thanks again for taking us back into the 'real' JKR. :o)
Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).





From cresorchid at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 00:22:15 2013
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 19:22:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nagini
In-Reply-To: <koofbt+btdo@eGroups.com>
References: <koodrs+3mrm@eGroups.com>
	<koofbt+btdo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0N9AMkFfHr27ayWw_Sz9o5wHBrcfXVMi_bu-CZTMPyyrQ@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192407

John wrote:
However when it comes to the utterly unrecognisable mutation of the
storyline in DH2 that's where Kloves and I part company. As I always say it
is a total 'dogs breakfast' of a movie and so AU (Alternate Universe), it
has little in common with the canon text, or Jo's intent when she wrote it.
:o(

Crescent:
Actually, Jo had approval of everything that they did in the movies. That
was the only way she would agree to allow them to film HP. So she either
didn't care about the changes or was fine with them. I don't think anything
was included, excluded or changed without her express permission.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jun  6 03:36:21 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 23:36:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did JKR leave herself some 'wiggle room',
 by not destroying the Deathly Hallows.
In-Reply-To: <kon4f2+u661@eGroups.com>
References: <kon4f2+u661@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51B003B5.3070309@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192408

On 6/5/2013 6:38 AM, John wrote:
> I suspect that the wand is more than capable of defending itself 
> against such a simplistic attack. Wisely Jo left the door open for 
> herself and even others such as fan writers, whom she is very generous 
> towards in permitting us to write not for profit stories set in her 
> 'universe'.

Bart:
It does make sense that, at some point, a possessor of the Elder Wand 
would take the POV, "If I can't have the wand, NOBODY can!" and try to 
destroy it, which implies that it can't be destroyed. There is only one 
way to effectively destroy the wand, and in the book, Harry found it.  
By rejecting the wand, and living a quiet life, he manages to get around 
the implied curse of the wand: that it will attract attacks from those 
wishing to steal it, and an unexpected attack would work on even a 
wizard with the Elder Wand (even a Muggle firearm). If he dies a death 
of natural causes, the Elder Wand, having no master, becomes a more or 
less ordinary wand.

     Bart



From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jun  6 03:48:18 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 23:48:18 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Future projections of Wizarding Society post
 war.
In-Reply-To: <konafe+5sp5@eGroups.com>
References: <konafe+5sp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51B00682.5080701@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192409

On 6/5/2013 8:21 AM, John wrote:
> To start with I make an assumption, that the rate of magical children born to non magical families may tend to rise, as the possession of magic is a very strong 'survival trait' and therefore simple natural selection may play a part, assuming there is a genetic base for the ability to possess and utilise magic. If true these Muggleborns might well prove a spearhead for new attitudes to emerge.
Bart:
     That is more of a Lysenkoist view of evolution than a Darwinian 
one. Natural selection simply decides which mutations continue on, and 
which ones die off. It does not cause the mutations to occur in the 
first place.

     Note that there seems to be a cultural bias against Wizards having 
large families; even those who support pureblood wizardry seem to have 
smaller families, while the size of the Weasley family is considered to 
be a subject of derision by the purebloods. Also notice that, in a 
school full of teenagers, there doesn't seem to be any sex or unwanted 
pregnancies (unless "snog" has a different meaning in the WW).

     There has been a discussion here about the possible genetic 
components of magic. The one I supported was a combination of multiple 
recessive genes.

     Bart




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 08:28:54 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 08:28:54 -0000
Subject: Nagini
In-Reply-To: <CAPyU+0N9AMkFfHr27ayWw_Sz9o5wHBrcfXVMi_bu-CZTMPyyrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <koph86+s8ts@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192410





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandra Lynn <cresorchid at ...> wrote:
>
> John wrote:
> However when it comes to the utterly unrecognisable mutation of the
> storyline in DH2 that's where Kloves and I part company. As I always say it
> is a total 'dogs breakfast' of a movie and so AU (Alternate Universe), it
> has little in common with the canon text, or Jo's intent when she wrote it.
> :o(
>
> Crescent:
> Actually, Jo had approval of everything that they did in the movies. That
> was the only way she would agree to allow them to film HP. So she either
> didn't care about the changes or was fine with them. I don't think anything
> was included, excluded or changed without her express permission.


Hi Crescent and All.

Yes, I was aware Jo had approval rights, but the exact terms of the contract and the relative 'balance of power' involved is impossible for an outsider to know. I stick by what I wrote in that I dislike what all the changes did to the plot of DH2 which completely destroyed the movie for me from the moment the trio arrived at Hogwarts.

Not that it was utterly awful, for instance I loved Harry's encounter with Helena Ravenclaws ghost so much and the way she was portrayed it inspired me to write a post battle fan fic featuring her Called The Ghost and the Machine. All taken into consideraion it was a pretty good 'action movie' for the most part, other than the interminable wand battle (parts 1&2!) between Lord Voldemort and Harry which, after a glacial age eventually results in Voldemort's non canon death.

Some parts of the film, particularly those involving Neville were great. The scene where he stood defying Scaboir and a horde of Death Eaters charging down the mountain at him, like 'Horatius at the bridge', yelling the classic line "Yeah! You and who's army" was almost enough in itself to 'redeem' the film's ending for me, that and his declaration about Luna confessing being "Mad for her", was a major boost for Luna/Neville 'shippers' in the fan fiction community like me, who see the two together as a pair, maybe not life partners but certainly together for a while in a passionate romance, before eventually finding their more canon spouses.It seems Steve Kloves is also a bit of a Neville/Luna 'shipper' on the sly. ;o)

The scene where Neville defies Voldemort to his face was well done but then he does not cut off Nagini's head at the same time. Why mess about with such a fantastic book scene? All a bit odd and yet another of the many uneeded changes that are all a bit annoying and certainly non canon. All in all I don't like this movie as a Harry Potter film as such, indeed Neville almost entirely steals it from the moment he emerges from the passageway at the Hogs Head, with the best lines and the best scenes. As an action film it's not too bad, but how it got Jo's approval with all it's changes, omissions and additions is a mystery.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 09:01:05 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 09:01:05 -0000
Subject: Future projections of Wizarding Society post war.
In-Reply-To: <51B00682.5080701@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <kopj4h+4cie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192411


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 6/5/2013 8:21 AM, John wrote:
> > To start with I make an assumption, that the rate of magical children born to non magical families may tend to rise, as the possession of magic is a very strong 'survival trait' and therefore simple natural selection may play a part, assuming there is a genetic base for the ability to possess and utilise magic. If true these Muggleborns might well prove a spearhead for new attitudes to emerge.
>
> Bart:
>      That is more of a Lysenkoist view of evolution than a Darwinian
> one. Natural selection simply decides which mutations continue on, and
> which ones die off. It does not cause the mutations to occur in the
> first place.
>
>      Note that there seems to be a cultural bias against Wizards having
> large families; even those who support pureblood wizardry seem to have
> smaller families, while the size of the Weasley family is considered to
> be a subject of derision by the purebloods. Also notice that, in a
> school full of teenagers, there doesn't seem to be any sex or unwanted
> pregnancies (unless "snog" has a different meaning in the WW).
>
>      There has been a discussion here about the possible genetic
> components of magic. The one I supported was a combination of multiple
> recessive genes.
>
>      Bart


Hi Bart.
Thanks for your comment.

I tend to agree that with what you said in the last part, about multiple recesssive genes. Possibly a 'critical mass' of muggles has developed who carry them has developed down the centuries since magical ability first emerged in humanity and now it is becoming more commonplace for them to be combined in muggle offspring.

Much of what I see as happening post war regarding technology adoption and the hybrid magical/muggle techniques being developed is also present in social changes too.

Muggle ideas even crop up in Jo's canon, in her Epilogue both Harry and Ron's families arrive at King's Cross station by driving their own cars for instance. Even a pureblood like Ronald Weasley has apparently adopted this muggle mode of transport so it must be becoming commonplace and he only needed to use one small spell to get a pass on his driving test. :o)

Although of course in fact very few of us muggles who are Londoners would ever dream of even attempting to drive to King's Cross. The traffic is horrendous, there's nowhere to park and the congestion charging fees in our capitol are swingeing. Only wizards and witches can get away with such an outrageous act, as one assumes they can hide their presence from traffic cameras and if needs be Confund traffic wardens. :o)

Muggle ideas may also tend to infiltrate the Wizarding lifestyle in other ways too. In my comedy story called Ronald and the Muggle Doodad for instance Ron finds Hermione's iPod laying on the kitchen table and asks what it is. She explains and let's him have a listen to it. Having previously only heard scratchy wind up record players at home, or lo-fi Wizarding Wireless, plus the tinny enchanted transistor radio he had to monitor the Potterwatch broadcasts when the trio were 'on the run' Ronald is astonished by the sound quality and decides he has to have one. So Hermione promises to buy him one of his own for Christmas and they agree that she will teach him how to use her laptop, so he can load music he likes onto it for himself. :o)

I see social changes in the Wizarding World happening like this, mainly by evolution rather than revolution for the most part, but quite rapidly post-war. Certainly with Muggleborns like Hermione kicking some wizarding bottoms to create change where it is desperately needed, for instance in getting unjust laws such as those regarding sentient magical creatures and werewolves reformed.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From kcduffy23 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 16:00:07 2013
From: kcduffy23 at yahoo.com (Kevin)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 16:00:07 -0000
Subject: Future projections of Wizarding Society post war.
In-Reply-To: <kopj4h+4cie@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <koqbm7+25c7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192412

> > John wrote:
> > > To start with I make an assumption, that the rate of magical
children born to non magical families may tend to rise, as the
possession of magic is a very strong 'survival trait' and therefore
simple natural selection may play a part, assuming there is a genetic
base for the ability to possess and utilise magic. <snip>

> > Bart:
> > That is more of a Lysenkoist view of evolution than a Darwinian
> > one. Natural selection simply decides which mutations continue
> > on, and which ones die off. It does not cause the mutations to
> > occur in the first place. <snip>

> John:
> <snip>
> I see social changes in the Wizarding World happening like this,
mainly by evolution rather than revolution for the most part, but
quite rapidly post-war. Certainly with Muggleborns like Hermione
kicking some wizarding bottoms to create change where it is
desperately needed, for instance in getting unjust laws such as
those regarding sentient magical creatures and werewolves reformed.
>


Kevin:
I joined this site a couple days ago and have been very pleased with
each of your comments and analysis.  Simon, a friend of mine, introd
me to JKR in 96.



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun  6 22:15:03 2013
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 22:15:03 -0000
Subject: Future projections of Wizarding Society post war.
In-Reply-To: <konafe+5sp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kor1l7+75vp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192413



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
>
> Why do I think this likely to include a change in attitude to muggle technology and innovations in general? One simple reason, the rise in acceptance and influence of Muggleborn witches and wizards such as Hermione Granger, people who are fully capable of bridging both worlds, can understand and use muggle technology and see where in certain ways it can be superior to magical methods.

> In my personal fan fiction future projection of post war Wizarding World I have written several stories featuring these changes and pointing out where Muggle technology might well be adopted, and why.
> 
> To start with I make an assumption, that the rate of magical children born to non magical families may tend to rise, as the possession of magic is a very strong 'survival trait' and therefore simple natural selection may play a part, assuming there is a genetic base for the ability to possess and utilise magic. If true these Muggleborns might well prove a spearhead for new attitudes to emerge.

Pippin:
As has been pointed out, in Darwinian evolution genes don't select themselves, although magical genes might be able to. 

But what advantage do magical genes confer?   Muggles are thriving and their numbers are increasing exponentially -- wizards, not so much.   Magic might be an advantage in a hostile and highly magical environment such as the Forbidden Forest,  but few such environments exist nowadays. 

Possibly in their drive to become the dominant magical species and to eradicate or contain "dark creatures" the wizards  altered the world so much  that magic itself was no longer a necessary adaptation for humans. 

Meanwhile there must be a damper on the multiplication of magical genes in the populace, or we'd be an all-magical species already, like dragons or House Elves. 

The unhappy results of the purebloods' experiment in selective breeding suggests that  in humans some magical genes may be lethal in combination, or adaptive only if you inherit one copy, not two. 


In any case, Wizards have decided that they can live as they wish only by keeping their existence a secret -- and this can only lead to the sort of constructive paranoia that views every innovation with suspicion, because there's no way anyone can prove that it's *not* going to make wizards more visible to Muggles. Every magical act carries the risk of detection, and any incidence of detection could be the tipping point that pitches Muggles into taking magic seriously again. 

Hermione wouldn't want that to happen.  

 She's also discovered that many people aren't as adaptable as she is, and suffer when things change too quickly, even if the changes themselves are positive. So I imagine her push is to show that  Muggleborns  adapt successfully to the wizards' way of life, not to sell wizards on the benefits of Facebook. 

I understand that the coming generation of Muggleborns would be very unhappy to have to give up their smartphones and such -- but wizards seem to think, like Hobbits or late Victorians, that everything necessary to the quiet enjoyment of life has been invented already. 


Pippin






From cresorchid at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 23:08:58 2013
From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:08:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Future projections of Wizarding Society post war.
In-Reply-To: <kor1l7+75vp@eGroups.com>
References: <konafe+5sp5@eGroups.com>
	<kor1l7+75vp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyU+0ObXO4PQEC-bs+ug3bvyr64AMYyNOfLU7H3RO-J2C+V5w@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192414

Pippin wrote:

> The unhappy results of the purebloods' experiment in selective breeding
> suggests that in humans some magical genes may be lethal in combination, or
> adaptive only if you inherit one copy, not two.
>
> She's also discovered that many people aren't as adaptable as she is, and
> suffer when things change too quickly, even if the changes themselves are
> positive. So I imagine her push is to show that Muggleborns adapt
> successfully to the wizards' way of life, not to sell wizards on the
> benefits of Facebook.
>
> I understand that the coming generation of Muggleborns would be very
> unhappy to have to give up their smartphones and such -- but wizards seem
> to think, like Hobbits or late Victorians, that everything necessary to the
> quiet enjoyment of life has been invented already.


Crescent:

I have wondered about the rate of attrition of muggleborn and halfbloods in
wizarding society because the culture is so behind the times. How many
people drop out of the wizarding culture after graduation or a few years
later because of the prejudice against them? Or moving to other countries
which accept differences among the population better than the English
community does. What are the true occupational opportunities for
muggleborns in England at the time of the war? I have seen some fanfics
that address this issue, but not many.

I suspect that the rate is pretty high because there is such strong
prejudice not only against muggleborns and half bloods, but also against
any behaviors or appearances that aren't strictly wizarding. Furthermore,
even Hermione, the bookworm has a difficult time learning about all the
wizarding protocol and culture. If she can't figure all of this out easily,
I doubt many muggleborns do. I have to wonder if one of the reasons for
such a large number of apparent muggleborns occurring is because magical
people leave the wizarding world and pretend to be/act as muggles.  A
generation or two down the line, they end up with wizarding progeny.






From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Jun  7 02:54:42 2013
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 02:54:42 -0000
Subject: Future projections of Wizarding Society post war.
In-Reply-To: <CAPyU+0ObXO4PQEC-bs+ug3bvyr64AMYyNOfLU7H3RO-J2C+V5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <kori1i+qa7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192415



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandra Lynn <cresorchid at ...> wrote:
>
> Pippin wrote:
> 
> > The unhappy results of the purebloods' experiment in selective breeding
> > suggests that in humans some magical genes may be lethal in combination, or
> > adaptive only if you inherit one copy, not two.
> >
> > She's also discovered that many people aren't as adaptable as she is, and
> > suffer when things change too quickly, even if the changes themselves are
> > positive. So I imagine her push is to show that Muggleborns adapt
> > successfully to the wizards' way of life, not to sell wizards on the
> > benefits of Facebook.
> >
> > I understand that the coming generation of Muggleborns would be very
> > unhappy to have to give up their smartphones and such -- but wizards seem
> > to think, like Hobbits or late Victorians, that everything necessary to the
> > quiet enjoyment of life has been invented already.
> 
> 
> Crescent:
> 
> I have wondered about the rate of attrition of muggleborn and halfbloods in
> wizarding society because the culture is so behind the times. How many
> people drop out of the wizarding culture after graduation or a few years
> later because of the prejudice against them? Or moving to other countries
> which accept differences among the population better than the English
> community does. What are the true occupational opportunities for
> muggleborns in England at the time of the war? I have seen some fanfics
> that address this issue, but not many.
> 
> I suspect that the rate is pretty high because there is such strong
> prejudice not only against muggleborns and half bloods, but also against
> any behaviors or appearances that aren't strictly wizarding. Furthermore,
> even Hermione, the bookworm has a difficult time learning about all the
> wizarding protocol and culture. If she can't figure all of this out easily,
> I doubt many muggleborns do. I have to wonder if one of the reasons for
> such a large number of apparent muggleborns occurring is because magical
> people leave the wizarding world and pretend to be/act as muggles.  A
> generation or two down the line, they end up with wizarding progeny.
>
Nikkalmati

Remember that Muggleborns have a hard time living in the real world too.  Most of them, we have seen, are teased or rejected by their peers or even their families.  They are so relieved to find there is a place where they can be understood.  In order to live in the real world a Muggleborn wuld have to conceal their magic, to live without a part of themselves - not an enjoyable prospect.  If they did not, they could be feared, excluded, exploited, or incarcerated.  Still, I think some never go to Hogwarts or they slip back into the real world.

I would assume that magical genes are sprinkeled rather plentifully throughout mankind and that they crop up regularly when two lines are crossed.  I agree the genes would be recessive and probably more than one pair.  (Somewhere I read there are 6 genes that control eye color).  Some children would only have a little magic and sadly of course having 2 magical parents is no guarentee of full magical powers.  We also see that some people appear naturally to have stronger magic than others.  Riddle for example.  

Nikkalmati




From coverton1982 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  7 09:50:59 2013
From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (corey)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 04:50:59 -0500
Subject: Future projections of Wizarding Society post war. 
Message-ID: <SNT133-ds16F367E4C4E6704A66367FD5990@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 192416

Talking on the whole topic, I think I wonder what Filch went through when he was younger before Hogwarts? I kind of feel sorry for him cause there was all this magic around and he couldn't do any of it.

Corey




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 11:47:26 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:47:26 -0000
Subject: Future projections of Wizarding Society post war.
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-ds16F367E4C4E6704A66367FD5990@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <kosh8e+dtjr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192417






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corey" <coverton1982 at ...> wrote:
>
> Talking on the whole topic, I think I wonder what Filch went through when he was younger before Hogwarts? I kind of feel sorry for him cause there was all this magic around and he couldn't do any of it.
> 
> Corey
>

Hi Corey.
Don't know why but this query seems to be off into another topic, rather than under the original heading, but just to reply anyway, I suspect that Filch became the embittered 'old geeza' he is because he was very badly treated by the Wizarding World in general and possibly even his own parents for being a Squib.

He would possibly (even probably)  have been viewed by his family as an 'embarrassment' especially if they were Purebloods and shipped off to a normal muggle school and kept hidden away from the eyes of the wizarding world.

As a result he became as he is, both jealous of those who possess magic, perhaps even slightly fearful of it but feeling let down by the world because he too should possess it. I suspect he is in a similar mental state that Petunia was at being 'rejected' but that at some stage Dumbledore or an earlier headmaster must have taken pity on him and given him the post he holds in the school.

In my  personal 'future projection' of the evolution of wizarding society, which sees considerable change to the post war wizarding world and it's relationship to the muggle world I suggest many changes come about. Some forced because the shock of what happened made many finally see that the tragedies of their recent past were actually brought about because of the hidebound and corrupt Ministry of the past, embodied by the attitudes present in the institution under Fudge inherited from his predecesors. Also the war was due to the narrow  minded and supremacist attitudes of the Purebloods who dominated, (as they thought by right), their fellow witches and wizards. Tom Riddle Jnr was in fact a symptom of the rot, not it's cause.

As a result of these forced realisations and tragically hard learned lessons I see the Muggleborns bringing much change about, especially given that Hermione Granger with her strong sense of justice has become such a heroine and gained much respect and influence. Indeede, asI have said in later life I see her as a 'shoe in' for Minister herself, after working for Kingsley in his brilliant reforming administration. Of course no repeal of repressive laws or change in public perception can cause someone who's magic has failed to materialise for them to gain magical ability, that would be absurd. The problem of the Squibs would therefore still remain, although perhaps with less stigma attached, with them seen perhaps much in the way we now view differently abled people. 

However, in my fan fiction projection, (and thanks for the nudge towards this as it's set me thinking), I will be adding that the Squibs can play a very useful role in the 'rapprochement' I see as happening between magical and non magical folk. I will not go back and repeat why I think this coming together must happen and I know some here disagree, but in the two small 'living together' experiments I see as being authorised by The Ministry in a limited experiment in co-habitation somebody like Argus Filch, and all other Squibs, particularly those cast out into the muggle world and used to the culture could at last play a very useful role as 'go betweens' and 'liason officers', having a 'foot in each camp'.

Indeed I feel this 'useful role' and some law changes would give back a degree of pride to the Squibs and make them feel that finally they are being permitted to have a useful and fulfilling place in wizarding society.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 13:05:04 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:05:04 -0000
Subject: Fun encounter in London.
Message-ID: <koslq0+gmmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192418

Hi All.

This is not a 'serious topic' as such, just a little anecdote about a chance encounter I had yesterday in Central London.

As a serious Potterhead I of course know a lot of the places scenes were filmed in London and have visited many in passing on my travels around the city or indeed making specific 'pilgimages' such as visiting King's Cross Station's recreated entrance to Platform Nine and Three Quarters. This for those who may not know it has a sign and a luggage trolley bearing half a school trunk and half an owl cage embedded into a brick wall which can be seen online. being there for a serious Potterhead like myself, even though knowing it's fake can be strangely moving, stirring up the yearnings many of us even as adults I'm sure have about wishing it all was real and wishing to 'step through that wall'.  :o) 

This attraction is a hugely favourite place for many Potter fans and not just kids, often with a mixed crowd queing to get their photo's taken pushing the trolley 'through' the wall. There is even a special porter employed to marshal the visitors and assure everyone who wants to gets a turn at having their picture taken 'heading off to Hogwarts'.

Remarkably in our money grubbing culture this attraction and the services of the 'porter' are free, one would assume because the many shops and fast food places in the newly rebuilt and rather splendid station concourse benefit anyway from the extra visitors. Indeed I'm sure that on September the 1st prior to 11 am the place must be inundated with potential 'pupils'. :o)

Also regarding Potter related London film locations I can for, instance,take you to the location of the entrance to Diagon Alley used by the Death Eaters on their raid to capture Ollivander from his shop, as shown at the start of one of the movies. Sadly though I can't see or enter The Leaky Cauldron, being a muggle but one can have a drink sat outside The Porcupine, which is a 'muggle pub' just opposite and from there try to do a spot of 'wizard/witch spotting', as they make their way between muggle and magical London. ;o)

As to the original reason for this post, well yesterday I was on a completely un-Potter related trip to Camden to visit a specialist employment service there when, (having got off my bus where it terminated at Horse Guards Parade in Whitehall), I had a Potter related encounter. I was cutting through a nondescript Whitehall backstreet with Harry Potter the last thing on my mind when turning a corner I saw a largeish group of people, (fairly obviously tourists), staring at and taking photographs of a fairly boring wooden 'garage' sort of door at a building's rear, one that would open out to the street to give access to enter the premises for service purposes. 

As I approached this group along the street they were led by a lady guide a bit further towards me and then started taking photos and staring at the completely unremarkable stone wall of another fairly nondescript government building! ;o)

They all looked engrossed in what the guide was telling them, but any normal observer would have been utterly bewildered at what was happening and the 'bonkers' nature of this group, perhaps thinking them on 'day release' from a mental institution and their guide a social worker. I however, of course had it 'sussed'. :o)

It was a Harry Potter Tour, seeing the Potter sights in London and I knew this to be the place where the trio had 'ambushed' 3 Ministry Employees in order to gain admittance using their identities by employing Polyjuice Potion. They had stashed their 'victims' stunned bodies inside the space behind the wooden door, a very grotty place which in the movie and probably also in real life contained 'dumpster' type bins. Having seen this place the tourist group had moved on to the spot where the typical traditional London red telephone box was located which, when the right number was dialed would descend, carrying whoever was in it down to the Atrium reception desk of the Ministry of Magic. This is not a real phone box though but was a movie prop, hence the tour party photographing an empty pavement and a stone wall. :o)

Once I drew close to the party of visitors, (many Americans amongst them) I confirmed with them they were on a 'Potter Tour' and had a little chat, my baseball cap which I was wearing with it's several Potter related badges probably reassuring them I was not just a random 'nosy nutter' but in fact the same type of 'nutter' as themselves, aware of the significance of where they were and what they'd been doing. :o)

Then we parted company, they off to see the mounted Guards at the entrance to Horseguards Parade, (not a Potter location thing but mere yards away and an interesting tourist site of itself, many of which they were also taking in as they were in the vicinity).


I wished them a good tour, told them they'd enjoy the fun bit at King's Cross and hoped they'd 'get through' the wall, then we parted company.

Like I said, not a major intellectual topic, just a fun encounter, a bit of info about Harry's London and something to show that Jo and her Harry Potter stories help unite people from all around the world, which here of course we already knew. :o)

Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 13:57:26 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:57:26 -0000
Subject: The Stephen Fry versions of the Potter books.
In-Reply-To: <koj4dg+ja5p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kosos6+8e1c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192419

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
>
> > <snip>

Hi again all.
I'm sure I'm speaking for everyone here in wishing Stephen Fry well in his lifelong fight against his depression/bi-polar illness.

As has recently been widely reported in the media following a very courageous public interview he gave Stephen was driven by his illness into a recent suicide attempt, which nearly resulted in his death and left him with four broken ribs. Luckily he was found and successfully treated for his injuries and is now currently more stable and feeling happier.

However, as I personally know from my own 'mood disorder' problem, severe 'lows' such as this can easily overwhelm a person and people with this condition cannot rely solely on medication, but need the love and strong support of those around them when a bad bout of 'The Blues' hits.

It would be a tragic loss should Stephen Fry die in this way, he is such a likeable and hugely talented person and by his audiobook readings  has contributed much to getting JKR's Harry Potter stories known around the world. I, and I'm sure others here would all hope that no such tragedy occurs and we get to delight in Stephen's talent and intelligence for many long years to come.
Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Jun  9 21:11:20 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:11:20 -0000
Subject: Divergence between canon and the films
Message-ID: <kp2r1o+arkg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192420

Geoff:
I have been interested to see the views expressed about the films and their
divergence from canon. A lot of criticism was originally voiced along this 
line when DH2 was released, when some of the present contributors were 
not here.

I have felt tempted to come in on that side of the discussion. As a group 
member for 10 years, I have felt that some recent threads are veering off 
topic and should therefore be in the OTC group but, since it was agreed that 
Main would allow film discussion if it was linked to canon, which is supposed 
to be the basis of the group. I feel that I will add my two pennyworth to the 
mix. I personally expressed very strong criticism of parts of DH2 in the early 
days, a position to which I shall return later; in general, I have liked the films 
and also recall that my induction into the Harry Potter world was through 
seeing CoS on a cinema in Barry, South Wales in December 2002 and, after 
rapidly seeing PS in the following week heading for the nearest bookshop to 
read more. 

The rest, as they say, is history.

However, although I broadly like the films, there are a number of places where 
the screenplay has distorted the storyline or, in some cases, has omitted bits 
of information which, if not mentioned, leave the watcher who is not deeply 
into the world HP puzzled. I'm going to mention three which have annoyed 
me to see what you think. Some are bigger niggles than others as you will 
see.

First off, in PoA, nowhere in the film is it revealed that Remus Lupin was one 
of the co-creators of the Marauders' Map. So, a newcomer to HP might be 
forgiven for  thinking "Why does Lupin know so much about this parchment? 
Where does he fit in?". The link of the authorship to James, Peter and Sirius as 
well is at all clear.

Moving to OOTP, in the book, we find Harry being tortured by Umbridge who 
makes him use a quill which uses his own blood to write and scars his hand 
each detention. Despite the urging of Ron and Hermione, he refuses to report 
the matter because he does not want to give Umbridge the satisfaction of 
thinking that she is winning. In the film, Umbridge and the Inquisitorial Squad 
students break into the Room of Requirement to capture members of the DA. 
This is not how it happens in canon where they only succeed in catching Harry 
and Co. because Dobby warns the group and I question whether a powerful 
magic artefact such as the Room  would be susceptible to a straight forward 
attack using simple spells. However, apart from that, we later see all the 
students sitting in a hall writing lines and all using blood quills. Are we really 
expected to believe the two dozen or more students are going to toe Harry's 
line and do nothing? There must be some ? if not just Fred and George ? who 
would take this further, possibly via parents.

Finally, in HBP, we have the Sectumsempra scene and its aftermath. In canon 
Harry rushes to the Room of Requirement to hide Snape's old Potions book. 
In the film, Ginny takes Harry there and then hides the book away from him so 
that he cannot use it again. This creates a problem in DH where Harry, in the 
book, recalls the location of the diadem but in the film, the story line is again 
distorted to accommodate the fact that Ginny is the holder of the secret. Purely 
as a personal grump, I have to say that, in my opinion, too much is made of 
Ginny in the later films. I have never been a fan because I feel that she echoes 
her mother's attitudes in being something of a control freak in addition to  
being  obsessed with Harry and I didn't felt that she was right for him. However, 
that's the author's prerogative.

But. My biggest beef is the shambles (IMO) that David Yates made of the final 
confrontation between Harry and Voldemort which, in the book at least was 
in the Great Hall and not zipping around the wreckage outside.

In that regard, may I direct you to a thread which I started on 21/07/11 entitled 
"MOVIE: Comparisons". As I said earlier, this was at a time the Elves were
allowing discussion of the films on Main where a useful comparison with canon 
could be made and we were asked to prefix the thread title with MOVIE. The 
thread begins at post 191019 and there is a considerable follow-up to it if you 
follow the links at the foot of each post. I think that will  make for a more 
meaningful read than a rehash starting from the beginning again; perhaps 
newer members of the group who were not here at the time might reply to 
points made on that original thread.

Finally, a smaller beef from a UK member after John's post about seeing people 
at Kings Cross railway station. Why was it that the interior scenes in the films 
were shot at Kings Cross but the exterior scenes ? as at the start of COS for 
example ? were at St. Pancras station? OK, this latter building is literally 100 
yards from Kings Cross because the two stations in pre-British Rail days 
belonged to different companies; the outside is probably prettier but no one 
with any decent contact with London (and mine ran to 45 years before I moved) 
is fooled!

Right, that may provide some food for thought and further enlightened 
discussion.




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 11:51:08 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:51:08 -0000
Subject: Divergence between canon and the films
In-Reply-To: <kp2r1o+arkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kp4ejc+g3s2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192421



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> I have been interested to see the views expressed about the films and their
> divergence from canon. A lot of criticism was originally voiced along this line when DH2 was released.....

Snipped.


But My biggest beef is the shambles (IMO) that David Yates made of the final 
> confrontation between Harry and Voldemort which, in the book at least was 
> in the Great Hall and not zipping around the wreckage outside....


Snipped.


Finally a smaller beef from a UK member after John's post about seeing people 
> at Kings Cross railway station. Why was it that the interior scenes in the films 
> were shot at Kings Cross but the exterior scenes ? as at the start of COS for 
> example ? were at St. Pancras station? OK, this latter building is literally 100 
> yards from Kings Cross because the two stations in pre-British Rail days 
> belonged to different companies; the outside is probably prettier but no one 
> with any decent contact with London (and mine ran to 45 years before I moved) 
> is fooled!
> 
> Right, that may provide some food for thought and further enlightened 
> discussion.
>


Hi Geoff.

Indeed your excellent post does add 'grist to the mill' for further dicussion. :o)

I am not going into all the movie/canon differences but to kick off, let's just mention the scene where all the DA meekly allow themselves to be tortured by Umbridge with her blood quills, I agree that whilst Harry may have (wrongly) decided to keep quiet about his own torture no way would all the others have done so and Umbridge would have been reported, via their parents.

Silly was this scene was I myself, despite my limited talent, found a way to use it in a fan fiction I wrote called The Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword, in which Umbridge comes to a 'sticky end' due to this torture session, being effectively 'hoist by her own petard'. Not perhaps my best story, but one that was very satisfying to write as like most I had the loathsome 'toad woman'.

Regarding your point about the stations, I believe I have an explanation for the 'station switch'. I am almost certain that JKR herself once admitted in an interview that she made an error confusing and conflating the exterior and interiors of the two stations (King's Cross and St. Pancras) in an early draft of the first book and that is why the inside of one and the outside of the other also appear in the movies. She was, of course having some personal problems at the time and had relocated to Edinburgh from Portugal following her relationship breakdown, so this 'rare as hen's teeth' error was not perhaps so surprising. :o)

In any case the photogenic superiority of the magnificent Victorian Gothic frontage of the adjacent St. Pancras Station, (even better now the station's hotel is restored and re-opened) would probably have been chosen by the film makers anyway, since the real King's Cross exterior was visually dire when they first filmed there. Although recently King's Cross has also had a magnificent, but very modern entry concourse added and the exterior environs when finished will be far nicer than the previous unremitting 'grott' that previously was there. 

By the way, just for further info, sadly the famous footbridge that once spanned the platforms at King's Cross has now been replaced during the refurbishment programme. This too was a bit of a 'Potter Pilgrimage' site, as it was where Harry was given his Hogwarts Express ticket by Hagrid in the first film and told to 'stick to it' before the half-giant mysteriously 'dissappeared'. The venerable old bridge also featured in a scene with Tonks, Alastor Moody and (I think) Kingsley, along with Sirius in his animagus form. Sirius then transformed and had a chat with Harry in a waiting room and gave him a photograph of the original Order of the Pheonix. 

For anyone wishing to make their own 'pilgrimage' to 'Platform Nine and Three Quarters' when in London the novelty trolley and platform sign are to be found at the rear of the large new entrance/concourse area, on the right hand side of the entry gates to platforms 9 -11 at the rear of the new entrance hall.

As to the rest of your post and it's points Geoff, well I'll leave it to others to get the ball rolling on the rest of the earlier films, which in general I like although they're not, (as you pointed out), perfect. I'll stick to the final terribly flawed movie and say that I too dislike the interminable wand battle between Harry and Voldemort (parts one and two!) and the associated 'additions' to the fight, like the flying scene. Far from making it more exciting it detracts from the drama, goes on forever and is like watching paint dry. :o(

The original confrontation in the Great Hall as written by Jo is far superior and much more dramatic, so ideally intensely cinematic in fact that one wonders what Steve Kloves was 'on' to think it needed any changes at all, yet alone a full scale 'dodgy rewrite'. Also the dramatic revelations in the 'little chat' between Harry and Tom Riddle as they circle each other are sadly missing. How JKR came to permit this hopeless mess I cannot understand. :o(

And don't even get me started on Voldemort's death by what looks like a severe case of leprosy crossed with malignant terminal dandruff! :o) Or on the ludicrous casual destruction of the Elder Wand! :o)

Thanks for mentioning the previous posts on these matters Geoff, I may well try and 'go back' and review/add to these when time pressures permit.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 13:45:49 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 13:45:49 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
Message-ID: <kp4lad+pvbr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192422

Hi All.

This is a post to explain an addition I made to the group's database for recommended reading.

Firstly assume this scenario....

Imagine a magical people living apart from the rest of humanity, keeping their special nature secret for fear of a resumption of earlier persecution.

The magical powers they have include the ability to levitate objects and to fly themselves, to magically cause the emission of light when needed, to store and recall memories using a special device, to heal magically, to read thoughts and feelings and in some of their number other powers also manifest. All of this created from the incredible mind and pen of a fantastic female author. :o)

So we're talking about JK Rowling's Witches and Wizards and her Wizarding World right?

Wrong! These magical folk are located in Arizona and are known simply as The People. They were the creation back in the late 1950's to the 1960's of an amazing author called Zenna Henderson, now sadly little known as Ms. Henderson died of cancer several decades ago.

Her large number of stories about The People, like Jo Rowling's Harry Potter ones all are interlinked, but unlike Jo's output most are in the form of short to medium length tales, rather than novels as such and may be satisfyingly read independently if one wishes. 

Like Jo Rowling's output Zenna Henderson's tales are almost all just as enjoyable to read for children, teenagers and adults and are engrossing stories about her invented magical folk. However Zenna's works are very different in 'feel' from Jo's brilliant work, they are, for the most part, simple, gentle little tales, charming, rural and almost bucolic, with no 'magical wars' or Dark Lords posing a threat. They are mainly simple stories of simple gentle folk who just happen to possess magical powers.

Knowing of The People and having loved and admired Zenna' work for most of my life I cannot help but see the parallels between the magic both authors created. But there are also great differences not only in the style of the two writers but also in the magic they describe, for one thing Jo's magic is far more 'formal' and structured, it uses wand techniques and spells, which can be taught provided one has magical powers, hence Hogwarts.

Zenna Henderson's magic, as possessed by her People is far more an innate gift which can vary slightly from person to person, some being slightly more able with some abilities than others.

To avoid any confusion or controversy I'd strongly stress that in no way am I implying any plagiarism on the part of JK Rowling in the creation of her Wizarding World. Indeed I very strongly doubt that at the time she was writing her Harry Potter stories Jo Rowling was even aware of Zenna Henderson's works as she was long deceased, nor that she had any knowledge of her People tales.

It is just such a strange coincidence that these two should write what they did and that several close parallels in their works should result. Parallels which I exploited recently by beginning a tale of my own, called No Different Flesh, in homage to one of Zenna's own stories. 

In this 'crossover' fan fiction I suggest that these two magical people might encounter each other, in the form of a chance meeting between Rolf and Luna Scamander whilst they are on one of their globetrotting Magizoological expeditions together, on the fringes of the Arizona desert. There the two sets of magical folk encounter each other and are amazed, as even the US Witches and Wizards who are mainly located on the East Coast of the USA have no knowledge of these 'other' magical folk. Luna, Rolf and The People that they meet get on extremely well after initially meeting due to a flying vehicle minor accident between them and begin to discover how alike and yet also how  different they are. Luna and Rolf also go on to find out about The People's origin, on a world torn apart by a natural cataclysm and their enforced 'Crossing' to Earth. The first chapter of this ongoing tale is now online.

So, to sum up, please do give Zenna Henderson's works a try, you'll be amazed at how good they are if you haven't read them. In their own way they are works of the highest quality, very entertaining and hugely enjoyable. That also includes her several other works not about her People, such as the amazing story Something Bright, and her many others. Her writing is perhaps not always as 'dramatic' as that which our dear Jo Rowling's genius created, but it is amazing. If anyone wants to know more please email me and I can point you to a source of online downloads of these 'out of copyright' works and to sources for more info.

Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid).




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Jun 10 23:57:58 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:57:58 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kp4lad+pvbr@eGroups.com>
References: <kp4lad+pvbr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51B66806.3040904@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192423

On 6/10/2013 9:45 AM, John wrote:
> To avoid any confusion or controversy I'd strongly stress that in no way am I implying any plagiarism on the part of JK Rowling in the creation of her Wizarding World. Indeed I very strongly doubt that at the time she was writing her Harry Potter stories Jo Rowling was even aware of Zenna Henderson's works as she was long deceased, nor that she had any knowledge of her People tales.

     There have been tales of magical folk in our midst since the 
beginning of time. Henderson's People stories were about a humanoid 
alien race with powers whose planet was destroyed, so they try to 
intermix with humanity. Alexander Key wrote a book (later turned into a 
movie 3 times, not including sequels) called "Escape to Witch Mountain", 
which a lot of people thought was a rip-off of The People. And Zenna 
Henderson was not all that obscure; her works were VERY well-known, and 
she was one of the first women to write science fiction without hiding 
her gender.

     I have had the suspicion that JKR was also inspired by Marion 
Zimmer Bradley, another early prominent female science fiction/fantasy 
writer. In particular, Abe Dumbledore's fascination with goats seems to 
me to come from Bradley's Lythande series, where in one of stories the 
main character visits a town where the most common insult is to call 
someone a "despoiler of virgin goats", which later becomes an important 
plot point.

     Bart



From oriondruid at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 12:02:11 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 12:02:11 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <51B66806.3040904@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <kp73k3+j653@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192424


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>

>    There have been tales of magical folk in our midst since the
> beginning of time. Henderson's People stories were about a humanoid
> alien race with powers whose planet was destroyed, so they try to
> intermix with humanity. Alexander Key wrote a book (later turned into a
> movie 3 times, not including sequels) called "Escape to Witch Mountain",
> which a lot of people thought was a rip-off of The People. And Zenna
> Henderson was not all that obscure; her works were VERY well-known, and
> she was one of the first women to write science fiction without hiding
> her gender.
>
>      I have had the suspicion that JKR was also inspired by Marion
> Zimmer Bradley, another early prominent female science fiction/fantasy
> writer. In particular, Abe Dumbledore's fascination with goats seems to
> me to come from Bradley's Lythande series, where in one of stories the
> main character visits a town where the most common insult is to call
> someone a "despoiler of virgin goats", which later becomes an important
> plot point.
>
>      Bart


Hello Bart.
I totally agree that there have been tales of magic in human culture, probably right back to the oral tradition before we even learned to write. The People stories as you said were, in their time, very well known and much loved but seem to have become a little more obscure now, as Ms. Henderson sadly died in 1983 having been married only for a short time and with no children, so there was no-one to carry on her legacy or keep her memory alive.

Yes, it certainly is the case some have formed the opinion that The Race to Witch Mountain is based on her work and can be called, at least to a degree, a 'copy', but I don't think that true, just as I don't thnk JKR's work draws in any way on Zenna's output.

All these accusations of plagiarism are simply, in my opinion, down to 'great minds thinking alike' and the fact that none of the magical concepts in any of these stories can be truly called 'ground breaking'. The plots themselves in Witch Mountain, The People Stories and also Harry Potter do contain the use of certain special magical abilities in common, but the storylines are, of course, entirely different and completely original. So no, not plagiarism in any way.

After all it's not what you select to include that is critical but the way you use it and the skill with which you write that determines a great book or series of books. Magic wands, witches, wizards, flying broomsticks, magic mirrors, spells, curses, potions, dragons and other magical creatures, these and all the rest of the panoply of magic have been around for centuries in folk tales and then written form. Even the concept of the 'boarding school story' as used by JKR is one that has been around a while.

It is the skillful combination and envisioning of the Wizarding World as a whole, her incredible attention to detail and imaginative flair, the exciting plots and broad sweep of JKR's stories which set them apart.

A similar thing can be said also for Zenna Henderson's tales which stand up well in comparison to Jo's creation. As you said Zenna was one of very few female writers of her era who openly wrote as a woman. The ridiculous idea that men make better authors seems to have carried on until recently and even up until the time that JKR's books were first published. Whilst Jo Rowling never actually denied her sex or set up any complex 'masquerade' she was happy at first to simply be known as JK Rowling and let her readership assume she was a man if they so wished. Only once her first book began to become a huge success did the wider world learn she was a woman.

To pick up the point about The People being 'humanoid aliens' well yes, technically I suppose they are, as they came here from another planet that had died in a cosmic cataclysm, but they are also in fact fully human. They don't just look like us, they can interbreed with us 'natives'.

There has been some conjecture elsewhere on other discussions I have had that perhaps these two races, the Earthly and alien humans are not simply a case of unbelievably close 'parallel evolution' but that there was previously some form of contact, maybe a colonisation or even Isaac Asimov style Galactic Empire made up of a human race distributed amongst the stars. One that far back in pre-history fractured, lost contact and lost it's high technology for some reason. Being forced to start again separately the humans of Earth in the main took the technological path, but on their world The People took the magical one. Anyway it's a thought, and one possible explanation. :o)

By the way, one final point that may be of interest. One of Ms. Henderson's People stories was once filmed for TV, by William Shatner of Star Trek fame and a young Francis Ford Coppola no less!

It was a version of her fine story Pottage, (relating to the phrase 'selling your birthright for a mess of pottage'). In this excellent story and to use JKR terminology a young 'muggle' schoolteacher is appointed to the remote rural Bendo village school by the Education  Board and finds the whole village to be very drab, down at heel and depressed seeming. It's children are also repressed and unhappy. To cut a long story short she discovers that the reason why everyone is so 'down' and the village so dead seeming is that they are an isolated colony of The People who are deliberately hiding their magical abilities in terror of the neighbouring 'normal' communities. The locals had in the past committed terrible violence against their ancestors for being 'different' when they first arrived on Earth, back in the late 1800's. After discovering the truth the teacher encourages her young charges to use their abilities when in class and develop their powers. Eventually the isolated village is happily reunited with the wider community of The People, becoming the happy and vibrant place it should have been.

To end, I once read a comment about Zenna Henderson from another great female writer, Anne Mccaffrey, the author of the famous Dragonriders of Pern series and many other great fantasy/SF stories. In a quote she highly praised Zenna Henderson's work as inspirational to her and poignantly said she really wished humans such as The People existed. Adding that she had a yearning that they really might exist and that if so they might well still be lovingly tending Zenna's grave to this day. I certainly hope so too, our world needs wonder and magic. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 12:57:45 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 12:57:45 -0000
Subject: Divergence between canon and the films
In-Reply-To: <kp4ejc+g3s2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kp76s9+efja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192425


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" <oriondruid at ...> wrote:

An apology and correction.

Snipped.
>
> Silly was this scene was I myself, despite my limited talent, found a way to use it in a fan fiction I wrote called The Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword, in which Umbridge comes to a 'sticky end' due to this torture session, being effectively 'hoist by her own petard'. Not perhaps my best story, but one that was very satisfying to write as like most I had the loathsome 'toad woman'.
>


Hi all, it's John again.
Sorry for the embarrassingly bad 'typos' in the above, it was late and I was tired and since they were actual words the spell check didn't pick 'em up. I swear my always dodgy typing is getting worse by the day and the post should of course read.....

Silly as this scene was...

And the paragraph also should have ended...

I hated the loathsome toad woman.

The latter error in the original (in which hated read as had) was a particular no no as it seemed to imply I might have 'known' the not so delightful Dolores in a 'biblical sense', not of course possible with a fictional character, but even if it were it's a vile idea and certainly would never be the case I'm glad to say. ;o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).





From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Jun 11 22:12:28 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:12:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kp73k3+j653@eGroups.com>
References: <kp73k3+j653@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51B7A0CC.7010004@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192426

Bart:
>     There have been tales of magical folk in our midst since the
> beginning of time. Henderson's People stories were about a humanoid
> alien race with powers whose planet was destroyed, so they try to
> intermix with humanity. Alexander Key wrote a book (later turned into a
> movie 3 times, not including sequels) called "Escape to Witch Mountain",
> which a lot of people thought was a rip-off of The People. And Zenna
> Henderson was not all that obscure; her works were VERY well-known, and
> she was one of the first women to write science fiction without hiding
> her gender.
>
>       I have had the suspicion that JKR was also inspired by Marion
> Zimmer Bradley, another early prominent female science fiction/fantasy
> writer. In particular, Abe Dumbledore's fascination with goats seems to
> me to come from Bradley's Lythande series, where in one of stories the
> main character visits a town where the most common insult is to call
> someone a "despoiler of virgin goats", which later becomes an important
> plot point.
John:
> Yes, it certainly is the case some have formed the opinion that The Race to Witch Mountain is based on her work and can be called, at least to a degree, a 'copy', but I don't think that true, just as I don't thnk JKR's work draws in any way on Zenna's output.

Bart:
I said "Escape to Witch Mountain"; "Race To Witch Mountain" was a 3rd 
hand copy, and diverged greatly from the original novel. Alexander Key 
was accused by many of copying Henderson in his 1968 original novel.

John:
>   Even the concept of the 'boarding school story' as used by JKR is one that has been around a while.

Bart:
I read several of those in the late 1960's. The Id/Ego/Superego trio was 
also rather common in popular literature as well.




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 00:37:13 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 00:37:13 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <51B7A0CC.7010004@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <kp8frp+lc4u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192427





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Snipped.
> 
> Bart:
> I said "Escape to Witch Mountain"; "Race To Witch Mountain" was a 3rd 
> hand copy, and diverged greatly from the original novel. Alexander Key 
> was accused by many of copying Henderson in his 1968 original novel.
> 

John: I'm sorry about that title mix up Bart, it didn't register and even if it had I must admit that I might not have noticed the difference. I have not read the book but certainly have seen the film, which whilst far from a cinematic 'masterpiece' is none the less an entertaining juvenile movie that I myself, even though in my dotage, enjoyed. :o)

> John:
> >   Even the concept of the 'boarding school story' as used by JKR is one that has been around a while.
> 
> Bart:
> I read several of those in the late 1960's. The Id/Ego/Superego trio was 
> also rather common in popular literature as well.
>

John:
Regarding 'boarding school stories' they date back quite a way, of course long before the time you read some in the 1960's. Charles Dicken's Nicholas Nickleby of course has a lot about a fairly awful establishment of that type called Dotheboys Hall, and at a guess I'd say the genre of the British 'boarding school story' probably reached it's peak in the 1920-1930's, but carried on as a quite common genre into the 1950's at least. Hogwarts is just another, but supremely brilliant recent 'variation on a theme'. :o)

Many such tales feature school bullies as characters. Crabbe and Goyle the hulking greedy sidekicks of Draco Malfoy are fairly typical of the bullies these stories tend to portray even though they are wizards. However they also include elements of the more comic, fat and greedy boarding school boy Billy Bunter. But some boarding school bullies like Flashman in the story Tom Brown's School Days, which was set in the real life Rugby School are an even worse and a more extreme threat than the two famous Harry Potter bullies and their leader Draco ever were to younger pupils.

Regarding your second point Bart, whilst having no great knowledge of such psychological concepts I do believe you are right and do recall Forbidden Planet, the film loosely based on Shakespeare's play The Tempest. It featured a 'monster from the Id', summoned up by alien technology and embodying all the primitive subconcious urges of Morbius, the father of the young woman whom a starship captain falls in love with after landing his ship and discovering the pair as survivors from a previous expedition.

This film is remarkable in many ways, it is very advanced in it's effects for it's time, is actually adult, not juvenile in it's acting and script, deals with the concepts of innocence and evil and also last but by no means least is where a beloved character first makes an appearance. One who went on to feature in a TV series and another later film. I am talking of course about Robbie the Robot, also something of a first as he was not a rampaging monster like almost all previous cinematic robots, but a useful, helpful and benign servant. A precursor of Asimov's positronic robots unable by design and built-in 'laws' to harm or kill a human. 

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).





From rarpsl at optonline.net  Thu Jun 13 04:11:06 2013
From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 00:11:06 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kp8frp+lc4u@eGroups.com>
References: <kp8frp+lc4u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080acddef0ec5bc0@[192.168.1.11]>

No: HPFGUIDX 192428

At 00:37 +0000 on 06/12/2013, John wrote about [HPforGrownups] Re: 
Parallels in other's fiction to that of:

>One who went on to feature in a TV series and another later film. I 
>am talking of course about Robbie the Robot.


Robby was an occasional Guest Star on Lost in Space as well as other 
shows like Columbo. As for the film that was The Invisible Boy where 
he is described as having come into the present via a time travel 
experiment which brought him back from the future (there is even a 
photo of the C57D with the crew and Robby shown).





From rarpsl at optonline.net  Thu Jun 13 03:40:02 2013
From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 23:40:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kp73k3+j653@eGroups.com>
References: <kp73k3+j653@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p06240809cddeec37414c@[192.168.1.11]>

No: HPFGUIDX 192429

At 12:02 +0000 on 06/11/2013, John wrote about [HPforGrownups] Re: 
Parallels in other's fiction to that of:

>To pick up the point about The People being 'humanoid aliens' well 
>yes, technically I suppose they are, as they came here from another 
>planet that had died in a cosmic cataclysm, but they are also in 
>fact fully human. They don't just look like us, they can interbreed 
>with us 'natives'.
>
>There has been some conjecture elsewhere on other discussions I have 
>had that perhaps these two races, the Earthly and alien humans are 
>not simply a case of unbelievably close 'parallel evolution' but 
>that there was previously some form of contact, maybe a colonisation 
>or even Isaac Asimov style Galactic Empire made up of a human race 
>distributed amongst the stars. One that far back in pre-history 
>fractured, lost contact and lost it's high technology for some 
>reason. Being forced to start again separately the humans of Earth 
>in the main took the technological path, but on their world The 
>People took the magical one. Anyway it's a thought, and one possible 
>explanation. :o)

I would like to correct a misconception in this discussion. The 
People are NOT magical but just normal (as in SciFi terms) 
psionic/psychic power possessors. While you can use Clarke's Law to 
define the use of Psionic Power as magic, with the People they are 
just using an inherent ability as opposed to the Potter Wizards who 
while they have the ability to do magic must learn spells to 
direct/use that ability.



From oriondruid at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 13:56:46 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:56:46 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cddeec37414c@[192.168.1.11]>
Message-ID: <kpcj2u+lps7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192430



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert A. Rosenberg" <rarpsl at ...> wrote:
>

> 
> I would like to correct a misconception in this discussion. The 
> People are NOT magical but just normal (as in SciFi terms) 
> psionic/psychic power possessors. While you can use Clarke's Law to 
> define the use of Psionic Power as magic, with the People they are 
> just using an inherent ability as opposed to the Potter Wizards who 
> while they have the ability to do magic must learn spells to 
> direct/use that ability.
>
Hi Robert.
Thank you for your contributions to this thread. 
Regarding Robbie, yes, spot on, you obviously know your robots sir. :o)

On the second point, well yes and no, I see the difference between psi powers and magical ones as being largely a matter of semantics. For instance the ability to read minds is both classifiable as psi (telepathy) or magic (Jo's Legilimancy). Same thing, just using different words. :o)

In both magic and psi being able to cause objects to fly is called levitation, the use of a 'spell' such as Wingardium Leviosa might in fact not be needed. Silent wordless magic is possible to witches and wizards in Jo's 'world' and such 'spells may simply act as a focus for intent, wands to act as physical directors of that impulse and the actual ability be down to a 'psi' power. Hard to tell which (or witch) from 't'other really. :o) 

Then again were Psi operators like The Rowan, in another famous and wonderful series of sci fi tales actually using magical powers by sending cargo items and passenger pods between the stars by linking their innate abilities called Psi to the power of machines? Semantics I think and in any case Zenna Henderson's creation of The People is a magnificent one, and should not be allowed to sink into obscurity.

'Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice'. For me The People are magic users, albeit their magic is innate and requires no teaching.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 14:19:36 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:19:36 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cddeec37414c@[192.168.1.11]>
Message-ID: <kpckdo+bn2h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192431



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert A. Rosenberg" <rarpsl at ...> wrote:
>
 While you can use Clarke's Law to 
> define the use of Psionic Power as magic, with the People they are 
> just using an inherent ability as opposed to the Potter Wizards who 
> while they have the ability to do magic must learn spells to 
> direct/use that ability.
>
Hi again Robert.
One point I forgot to make, the above is not totally accurate. Young witches and wizards do sometimes deliberately use their inherent abilities without being trained or using spells and wands. One example being in the way Lily Evans used to deliberately 'fly' and make a soft landing from the top of the park swing's arc.

Not 'accidental magic', but a deliberate and well learned 'party trick', without need for wands or spells to direct her power or for her to have been formally trained in any way. Magic or Psi? Learned behaviour sure, probably by assuming conscious control of a previously accidental piece of magic produced to save her from a fall. But it was the deliberate and learned conscious control without spell or wand use of an inherent ability. Psi/Magic Same difference?  I think so anyway. ;o)
Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Jun 13 21:17:11 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 21:17:11 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kpckdo+bn2h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpdcsn+d9vu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192432


Geoff:
Getting ourselves back on track by considering HP canon with writers, 
I want to give some consideration to magic. I would also like to express 
some thoughts about boarding schools, but that can be a later post.

I think it all hinges round what we mean by "magic". One of my 
dictionaries defines it as "the power of apparently influencing events 
by using mysterious of supernatural forces" 
.which covers a multitude 
of sins. :-) 

If one looks at the question of magic in the HP books, it is clear that if a 
book or series of books are about "magic" there is bound to be some 
connection or overlap of similar ideas with other authors. Books which 
come easily to my mind are the Middle-Earth books of J.R.R.Tolkien, the 
Narnia books of C.S.Lewis and, a two books which I have mentioned on 
a number of occasions here on Main, "The Weirdstone of Brisingamen" 
and "The Moon of Gomrath" by Alan Garner, a 1960s UK author.

Within the first three groups for example, there is magic performed by 
magical folk who use wands ? or in the case of LOTR ? staffs ? to produce 
results. In comparison to the Wizarding World, though, the amount of 
magic performed is less, and perhaps less public than in Harry's world. 
Gandalf uses his staff on quite a limited number of occasions and notes 
that its use can reveal the owner rather like a magical signature in JKR's 
world: 

`At last reluctantly Gandalf himself took a hand. Picking up a faggot he 
held it aloft for a moment and then with a word of command `naur an 
edraith ammen" he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At 
once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out and the wood 
flared and sputtered. "If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed 
to them," he said. "I have written `Gandalf is here' in signs that all can 
read from Rivendell to the Mouths of Anduin".' 
(LOTR:FOTR "The Ring Goes South). 

The other great magicians: Saruman and Sauron himself, also
demonstrate powerful magic of this nature. But there are other instances 
of old magic woven into building and sites: the magic which worked 
in and around the Elven centre of Rivendell while much of the Dark 
Lord's fortresses such as Barad Dur and Minas Morgul are maintained 
by the magic of the Great Ring which he forged. And we have the instance 
of Harry being saved by the ancient magic of love while Aslan at the Stone 
Table tells Susan and Lucy that the White Witch did not know of the Older 
Magic which kicked in and seems somehow related to the magic which 
saved Harry on more than one occasion.

In the Narnia series, the White Witch uses her wand to cast spells and 
Narnia itself is in thrall to her power until Christmas returns. If you consider 
that a part of Aslan's power, aside from the creative power which brought 
Narnia into being and later ended it, his magic included restoring the 
creatures which the White Witch had turned to stone by what could be 
called wandless magic ? his breathing on them, and it is interesting that 
in the battle at end of "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe", her power 
is severely hampered when Edmund smashes her wand. there are certainly 
parallels here with wands being damaged or used by the wrong folk in HP.

The Garner books have always attracted me. They are much shorter 
than our other candidates. Each of them can easily be read in a 
concentrated evening session. But  he draws quite heavily on Celtic 
myths and on the old legend of Alderley Edge, a hill in Cheshire not from 
from Manchester. What is interesting is that you see that he has drawn 
on similar folklore to our other writers. I have often said to myself: 
"That is very similar to so-and-so's creatures."

There is one place where JKR does diverge from the other writers ? as 
does Alan Garner. Their worlds are contemporary and interface with our 
own everyday world. Harry and Hermione can live both in the Muggle and 
magic worlds successfully. In Alan Garner's books, the real world main 
characters can meet the magic beings of Alderley walking along a road 
or call magical beings to their aid.

In LOTR, of course, Middle-Earth existed in a long-distant past; Elves 
and Dwarves and Orcs et al belong there and not on the streets of today's 
world. Narnia is different again in that although it exists alongside our 
world, its timeline is different. When the Pevensies go back each time, 
Narnian time has advanced in leaps and bounds so that Peter and Co 
find that they are characters of ancient history when they are called back 
to help Caspian.

Indeed, there are parallels of magic to be drawn but many also unique 
to the author who may have slanted it to his or her own need. The great 
thing to me however, is that, like science-fiction as a parallel(!), if I can 
exercise a "willing suspension of disbelief" and immerse myself in my 
chosen magical world without being jarred by inconsistencies which 
reveal cracks on the structure of the story, I am well satisfied.






From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jun 13 23:07:57 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:07:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kpdcsn+d9vu@eGroups.com>
References: <kpdcsn+d9vu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51BA50CD.3050004@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192433

On 6/13/2013 5:17 PM, Geoff wrote:
> I think it all hinges round what we mean by "magic". One of my
> dictionaries defines it as "the power of apparently influencing events
> by using mysterious of supernatural forces" .which covers a multitude
> of sins. :-)
>
Bart:
A scholar once defined magic as "The alteration of objective reality 
through the alteration of subjective reality."

Bart



From oriondruid at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 23:53:45 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 23:53:45 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kpdcsn+d9vu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpdm2a+moha@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192434






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Geoff:
> Getting ourselves back on track by considering HP canon with writers, 
> I want to give some consideration to magic. I would also like to express 
> some thoughts about boarding schools, but that can be a later post.

Snipped.



Hi Geoff and All.

Thanks for getting us back into the 'meat' of this subject with your insightful and informative post Geoff.

Also thanks for mentioning the Garner books Geoff, they sound interesting and I will try and track them down. :o)

As to the inevitability of some similarities between books containing magic use, then yes, to condense what I said in a post earlier 'There's nothing new under the sun'. Humans have long told stories of magical events, objects and powers and they tend to have a great deal of commonality no matter where these stories originate, but perhaps with local cultural variations.

As an example a sorcerer or wizard from the Middle East might tend to take to the air on a magic carpet, but a European magic user, such as Jo's witches and wizards, (who's 'wizards' are actually just male witches in effect, as both sexes have the same abilities and use the same spells), might instead more commonly use a broomstick to fly.

Nevertheless at a basic level be it flight by carpet or broomstick both types of magical levitation are basically very similar, using everyday objects imbued with magic to cause them to fly. Many other such examples of cross cultural similarity in the types and usage of magic must also exist, such as using a Staff instead of a Wand to control and direct magical power, the former probably being rooted in more Druidic magical practices, the later in European witchcraft and perhaps Ceremonial Magic. In any case regarding differing magical flying techniques I must add that given my 'druthers I'll take the carpet anyday, I'm sure it's more comfortable and there's less chance of developing hemeroids. :o)

But to come back to being serious again regarding 'magical realms' such as Middle Earth, Narnia etc and how they differ from JKR's Wizarding World. I agree it is a clever idea to make the 'Muggle' world we live in and the Wizarding World exist side by side, with matching time rates and the two so close together that they coexist in the same continuum, so closely linked that one only need to step through the front door of a particular London pub, for instance, to go from one 'realm' to the other.

I know of one other contemporary author who uses a variant of this idea to create her 'magical realm' but one very different in it's conception. The author is a Brit writer called Kit Berry and her magical realm, or more accurately magical enclave is called Stonewylde.

The idea of this series of books is that in the West Country of England there is a very large and walled-in private estate which hides a population of people who, for the most part, live apart from the outside world. These people live by basically Wiccan principles of self governance and whilst there are magical events and practices that take place there by no means all of the population divided between the 'upper class' Hall Folk and the more low status Villagers are in possession of magical knowledge.

This idea seems to me to be a combination of two previous stories, both of which originated in movies. The first being the very strange British classic film The Wicker Man, in which the isolated Scottish island populace of a place called Summerisle have rejected Christianity and live a Pagan lifestyle, up to and including sacrificing an unfortunate younger Edward Woodward who plays a police officer visiting the island to investigate the disappearance of a young girl which had been reported. This report turns out to be a ruse to snare a sacrificial victim, needed because the islanders crops had failed. In this film there is little real magic demonstrated, other than perhaps a sex magic 'spell' in the form of a compelling song/dance enacted by the lovely young Britt Eckland which has an attraction effect that can penetrate an intervening wall, and is used to test the 'purety' of the intended sacrificial victim. But though there's little 'real'magic shown in the film quite a lot of folk beliefs and ritual are featured. Not to mention that in a weird sort of way the film is almost a 'musical' and features several good songs and tunes.

The second film was a more recent one called The Village, the strange M. Night Shyamalan film, which also features a group of isolated people living apart from the rest of the world in a walled off enclave very much as Stonewylde is supposed to be. However the 'supernatural events' in this film are faked in order to keep younger members of the group from straying and finding out the truth about the outside world.

Put the plot lines of these two films together and you have much of Stonewylde, a magical place with real magical events happening, in an isolated place 'alongside' but separate from the 'normal' world.

Despite being a bit derivative as I explained I enjoyed reading these books as the plot and characters were good, but they're not what one might call top quality literary storytelling, as they don't quite scale the heights of creativity such as can be found in the creations of JKR and others previously mentioned who write of magic. Still give the series a try, you may well enjoy it as I did.

Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 00:35:22 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (John)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 00:35:22 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <51BA50CD.3050004@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <kpdoga+qu5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192435





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 6/13/2013 5:17 PM, Geoff wrote:
> > I think it all hinges round what we mean by "magic". One of my
> > dictionaries defines it as "the power of apparently influencing events
> > by using mysterious of supernatural forces" 
.which covers a multitude
> > of sins. :-)
> >
> Bart:
> A scholar once defined magic as "The alteration of objective reality 
> through the alteration of subjective reality."
> 
> Bart
>
Hi Bart.

I just wrote a longish reply about and example of just such 'change causing' I once actually witnessed, although of course the outcome could have been coincidence. However the post was wiped as I had a bit of 'finger trouble' as the old RAF pilots used to say and it vanished into the ether.

It is getting late here now so I won't re-type it all, but simply say that the definition of magic you give is essentially right, but is also often stated as being 'The ability to change external reality by an act of will alone' or for short 'The power to cause change by act of will' but then I never liked that a lot as all acts 'normal or magical that cause any sort of change at all start out as acts of will. :o)

However it is from this idea tyhat the Wiccan saying So Mote It Be comes about, meaning essentially, 'As I/We so will it so it will manifest'.

The anecdotal post I lost would demonstrate this idea in action, but it is now 1.30 am in good old London, so I mus sign off and get some 'kip'. Perhaps I'll try to post the story another time if anyone's interested? :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Thu Jun 13 21:27:27 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 21:27:27 +0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <1371120283.675.71494.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1371120283.675.71494.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <566A416F-AAA7-4336-8752-F89E54DE0FA2@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192436

	Posted by: ?John? <oriondruid at gmail.com> oriondruid
	Date: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:39 pm ((PDT))

> 	There has been some conjecture elsewhere on other discussions I have had that perhaps these two races, the Earthly and alien humans are not simply a case of unbelievably close 'parallel evolution' but that there was previously some form of contact, maybe a colonisation or even Isaac Asimov style Galactic Empire made up of a human race distributed amongst the stars. One that far back in pre-history fractured, lost contact and lost it's high technology for some reason. Being forced to start again separately the humans of Earth in the main took the technological path, but on their world The People took the magical one. Anyway it's a thought, and one possible explanation. :o)



Walabio:

	That does not work:

	We have molecular genetic evidence, fossil-evidence, evidence from homology, et al, clearly indicating that we humans are native to Earth and our closest relatives are the other great apes.  The only way that this can work would be if other aliens scooped up the ancestors of the People from dropped those humans an alien world, where they became the people.



From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Thu Jun 13 21:43:22 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 21:43:22 +0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <1371120283.675.71494.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1371120283.675.71494.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <E8BF75E4-E0D8-48BE-8727-0DC09DEDF96E@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192437

	Re:	Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
	Posted by:	?John? <Oriondruid at Gmail.Com> oriondruid
	Date:	Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:37 pm ((PDT))

> 	This film is remarkable in many ways, it is very advanced in it's effects for it's time, is actually adult, not juvenile in it's acting and script, deals with the concepts of innocence and evil and also last but by no means least is where a beloved character first makes an appearance. One who went on to feature in a TV series and another later film. I am talking of course about Robbie the Robot, also something of a first as he was not a rampaging monster like almost all previous cinematic robots, but a useful, helpful and benign servant. A precursor of Asimov's positronic robots unable by design and built-in 'laws' to harm or kill a human.
>

Walabio:
	The first Robotic Stories of Professor Isaac Asimov predate Forbidden Planet by more than a decade.  1 of them even has a robotic character named Robby.  Robbie in the movie is an homage to Robbie.  He named the story Robbie.  The Good Doctor started writing Robbie on 1939-06-10.



From shaun.hately at bigpond.com  Fri Jun 14 06:40:13 2013
From: shaun.hately at bigpond.com (Shaun Hately)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:40:13 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kpdcsn+d9vu@eGroups.com>
References: <kpdcsn+d9vu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51BABACD.8000907@bigpond.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192438

On 6/14/2013 7:17 AM, Geoff wrote:
>
> There is one place where JKR does diverge from the other writers  as
> does Alan Garner. Their worlds are contemporary and interface with our
> own everyday world. Harry and Hermione can live both in the Muggle and
> magic worlds successfully. In Alan Garner's books, the real world main
> characters can meet the magic beings of Alderley walking along a road
> or call magical beings to their aid.

I can think of another series that has this type of feature - the "Young 
Wizards" novels of Diane Duane. From what I have heard, Diane has often 
been annoyed by people suggesting she 'ripped off' Harry Potter in some 
way, people who are not aware the first book in that series "So You Want 
to Be a Wizard" was published fifteen years before the first Harry 
Potter book. There are currently nine books in this series, as well as 
three others in a parallel series in the same universe.

The discussion below necessarily contains some spoilers.

The "Young Wizards" books revolve primarily among three main characters 
- Nita Callahan and Kit Rodriguez, who are in their early teens, and 
Nita's younger sister Dairine, who is not quite a teenager yet. They 
live in New York state, in the United States and all three of them are 
wizards - as well as being relatively normal kids. The premise of the 
"Young Wizards" series is that there are Wizards all over the planet - 
ordinary people who were offered a choice by the universe, by nature 
itself, to be part of the group of people who try to keep nature on 
course. They are offered a chance to take an oath ("In Life's name and 
for Life's sake, I say that I will use the Art for nothing but the 
service of that Life. I will guard growth and ease pain. I will fight to 
preserve what grows and lives well in its own way; and I will change no 
object or creature unless its growth and life, or that of the system of 
which it is part, are threatened. To these ends, in the practice of my 
Art, I will put aside fear for courage, and death for life, when it is 
right to do so - till Universe's end.") and once they take it, they have 
the chance to learn how to use wizardry for those purposes. But, for 
most of them, they have to live a normal life as well - Nita, Kit, and 
Dairine have to deal with going to school. Even some of the very senior 
wizards we see have mundane day jobs.

The way Wizardry works in the books is a combination of raw power and 
skill using it. Young Wizards have the most raw power - a child who has 
just become a Wizard has an incredible amount of strength - but the 
least skill and knowledge as to how to use it. As Wizards get older, 
their power fades but they get more subtle and skilled in what they do. 
So in the books, Nita, Kit, and Dairine, find support from older Wizards 
who guide them and mentor them in what they need to do, while the older 
wizards need the younger ones to carry out some of the tasks needed.

Wizards use a language (called the Speech) to manipulate the universe. 
By subtly changing how you say a word in the speech you can actually 
change things - describe a tree in the speech for example, and just 
change the appropriate syllables, and you might make it bloom better. It 
is magic, but it has a structure behind it that is quite scientific - 
and lot of powerful wizardry relies on understanding things like 
physics, biology, etc, as well.

The books are full of - I hesitate to call it 'Christian symbolism' 
because it's more accurate to say, in the context of the books, that 
Christian symbolism reflects what is known to have happened in the 
history of the universe - wizards oppose "The Lone Power" - one of a 
number of Powers who rejected working with the others, and created death 
and entropy for his own reasons. Wizards work against his ends, but also 
hope that one day he can be redeemed.

I love the Harry Potter books, but in many ways, I regard the Young 
Wizard books as superior. They are never as 'silly' as the Harry Potter 
books can sometimes be - there is much more of a feeling reading them 
that this really could be happening without the rest of us knowing. They 
are kids books, but like a lot of the best kids books, they get into 
some deep and dark areas at times - there are books in which the kids 
must face - and accept - a very real risk of death, and where they watch 
people they love hurt badly.

The books are contemporary, but in a slightly odd way - each book is set 
about the time it was written, but the characters have aged only a 
couple of years over the nearly twenty years the series has been 
published (1982 for the first book to 2010 for the most recent - 
hopefully it will continue). So in 1982, Nita gets her 'manual' - her 
magic book - as an actual book. By the third book in 1990, young Wizards 
are getting computer versions, and in the most recent books some of the 
youngest wizards have wizPods. I don't think it does any harm, but it 
can be a little odd to deal with.

One thing to note - in this universe, not only humans can be wizards - a 
number of other species on earth have wizards among them, including 
dolphins/whales, cats, and dogs (the parallel series I mentioned of 
three books is about a group of cat wizards). There are also many other 
places in the universe with intelligent life that can be visited using 
wizardry and those planets may have wizards as well.

Shaun




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Jun 14 07:02:27 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 07:02:27 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <566A416F-AAA7-4336-8752-F89E54DE0FA2@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <kpef63+4nnm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192439

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ?????alabio??? <Walabio at ...> wrote:

John: 
> > 	There has been some conjecture elsewhere on other discussions I have had that perhaps these two races, the Earthly and alien humans are not simply a case of unbelievably close 'parallel evolution' but that there was previously some form of contact, maybe a colonisation or even Isaac Asimov style Galactic Empire made up of a human race distributed amongst the stars. One that far back in pre-history fractured, lost contact and lost it's high technology for some reason. Being forced to start again separately the humans of Earth in the main took the technological path, but on their world The People took the magical one. Anyway it's a thought, and one possible explanation. :o)

Walabio:
> That does not work:
> 
> We have molecular genetic evidence, fossil-evidence, evidence from homology, et al, clearly indicating that we humans are native to Earth and our closest relatives are the other great apes.  The only way that this can work would be if other aliens scooped up the ancestors of the People from dropped those humans an alien world, where they became the people.

Geoff:
So this is where you presumably exercise a "willing suspension of disbelief"? 
If I was going to apply criteria such as these, I think I wouldn't be reading 
anything along the lines of the books we are discussing at all!
:-)





From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Fri Jun 14 10:41:03 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 10:41:03 +0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <1371203061.582.94337.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1371203061.582.94337.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <6056233C-8192-4C73-A57B-AA72516DAB54@MacOSX.Com>

<snip>

> 	Walabio:
>> 	That does not work:
>>
>> 	We have molecular genetic evidence, fossil-evidence, evidence from homology, et al, clearly indicating that we humans are native to Earth and our closest relatives are the other great apes.  The only way that this can work would be if other aliens scooped up the ancestors of the People from Earth and  dropped those humans off on an alien world, where they became the people.

> 	Geoff:
> 	So this is where you presumably exercise a "willing suspension of disbelief"?  If I was going to apply criteria such as these, I think I wouldn't be reading anything along the lines of the books we are discussing at all!
>
> 	:-)


	Walabio?:

	I have a low threshold for this kind of pseudoscience because of previous run-ins with CreaTards (Flat/Young-Earth GeoCentric Creationists).  Compared to the pseudoscience CreaTards spout, all humans being space-aliens sounds downright scientific.  Do not get me started on the straw men they build!



From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 00:03:45 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 00:03:45 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <E8BF75E4-E0D8-48BE-8727-0DC09DEDF96E@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <kpgb11+hbum@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192441



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ?????alabio??? <Walabio at ...> w


> Walabio:
> 	The first Robotic Stories of Professor Isaac Asimov predate Forbidden Planet by more than a decade.  1 of them even has a robotic character named Robby.  Robbie in the movie is an homage to Robbie.  He named the story Robbie.  The Good Doctor started writing Robbie on 1939-06-10.
>
John:
Of course you are right the actual books by far predate Forbidden Planet and Lost In Space by quite some time, that I actually knew but expressed myself badly. What I think I actually meant to say but didn't was that Robbie as a benign robot with built in 'safety laws' predates the TV and Film appearences of Isaac Asimov's positronic robots, in such films as I Robot (I don't know if this is the first movie to actually feature Isaac Asimov's particular type of machines, but certainly BBC TV did a version of the story Liar in the early Seventies). The Will Smith film was, of course, far more recent than Forbiden Planet and indeed in that movie the positronic robots are in any case far from benign whilst under the control of the villainous 'female' master computer that can overide their safety circuits. Robbie, being fully independent, is in fact far safer for humans than the robots in that later movie.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 00:21:30 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 00:21:30 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <566A416F-AAA7-4336-8752-F89E54DE0FA2@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <kpgc2a+ltvt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192442



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ?????alabio??? <Walabio at ...> wrote:
>
> 	Posted by: "John" <oriondruid at ...> oriondruid
> 	Date: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:39 pm ((PDT))
> 
> > 	There has been some conjecture elsewhere on other discussions I have had that perhaps these two races, the Earthly and alien humans are not simply a case of unbelievably close 'parallel evolution' but that there was previously some form of contact, maybe a colonisation or even Isaac Asimov style Galactic Empire made up of a human race distributed amongst the stars. One that far back in pre-history fractured, lost contact and lost it's high technology for some reason. Being forced to start again separately the humans of Earth in the main took the technological path, but on their world The People took the magical one. Anyway it's a thought, and one possible explanation. :o)
> 
> 
> 
> Walabio:
> 
> 	That does not work:
> 
> 	We have molecular genetic evidence, fossil-evidence, evidence from homology, et al, clearly indicating that we humans are native to Earth and our closest relatives are the other great apes.  The only way that this can work would be if other aliens scooped up the ancestors of the People from dropped those humans an alien world, where they became the people.
>


Hi there.
Yes, of course we evolved here, I am not a Creationist suggesting some Deity deliberately made the two sets of humans so similar by 'intelligent design', nor an advocate of a Chariot of the Gods alien intervention. However, you have to work with what fictional 'facts' you are given within the context of a story if one wants to explain such an odd occurence and in The People stories the 'Alien Humans' are precisely that, not just identical to us on a gross visual level, but right down to their genetics being close enough to actually interbreed with Earth Humans.

Other than them being, as I said, an impossibly close example of 'parallel evolution', then some connection between the two races must exist. My suggestions were simply some scenarios to illustrate how such a connection might be possible. Another might be that Earth indeed was the planet where the ancestors of both human races evolved and that in some way and for some unknown reason in the distant past, perhaps as you yourself suggested, a population of them were transported to The People's world, the planet they simply named The Home.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 02:47:32 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:47:32 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <6056233C-8192-4C73-A57B-AA72516DAB54@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <kpgkk4+4mtn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192443



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ?????alabio??? <Walabio at ...> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> 
> > 	Walabio:
> >> 	That does not work:
> >>
> >> 	We have molecular genetic evidence, fossil-evidence, evidence from homology, et al, clearly indicating that we humans are native to Earth and our closest relatives are the other great apes.  The only way that this can work would be if other aliens scooped up the ancestors of the People from Earth and  dropped those humans off on an alien world, where they became the people.
> 
> > 	Geoff:
> > 	So this is where you presumably exercise a "willing suspension of disbelief"?  If I was going to apply criteria such as these, I think I wouldn't be reading anything along the lines of the books we are discussing at all!
> >
> > 	:-)
> 
> 
> 	Walabio?:
> 
> 	I have a low threshold for this kind of pseudoscience because of previous run-ins with CreaTards (Flat/Young-Earth GeoCentric Creationists).  Compared to the pseudoscience CreaTards spout, all humans being space-aliens sounds downright scientific.  Do not get me started on the straw men they build!
>


John:
Hi Walabio, I hope from what you wrote that you do not consider ME some sort of Fundie Creationist, or any of the panoply of dead heads you list above. In fact despite my email address and 'pen name' as Oriondruid I am not even any sort of Theist, and hold no religious beliefs as being the absolute truth and the only genuine revelation direct from some sort of God/Goddess!

I do respect much that is taught by many of the worlds religions in terms of morality and how humans should behave towards each other, our fellow creatures and our planet, but do not personally hold any one of their 'versions of Deity' to be the one and only correct and genuine one.

You may be confused by not knowing what Druidry actually is, that is to say a philosophical attitude, NOT a religion! One can hold virtually any non fundamentalist religious beliefs one wishes or none at all and still be a Druid. There are Christian Druids, Wiccan Druids, Buddhist Druids, adherents to almost all faiths indeed, plus virtually atheist Druids, all are welcome in our circles.

What we hold common is a respect for nature and natural forces, (not worshiping them). Also a respect for the achievements and wisdom of our ancestors, (but not the worship of them), not to mention a mutual feeling of a need to mark the natural cycles of the Solar Year and other regular annual festivals, marking out as they do the changing seasons and natural cycles of our world. 

We respect animals and believe they have a right to a decent life, even if they are being farmed for slaughter, although we are not all vegans or vegetarians by any means. We also believe in the commonality of this world's natural resources, (As a radial group around the time of the English Civil War (in 1649) called the Diggers said "This world should be a common treasury for all". That means as a species we should not pillage and consume the world's natural resources recklessly for reasons of greed and profit for a tiny minority. We believe in being true to ourselves and others, and in making a stand against injustice whenever we see it.

If any of this makes me a 'religious nutter', then so be it, I'm proud to be one, but trust me I will not be doing any 'preaching' here. :o)

I realise this post is far 'off topic' and apologise to others here, but in the light of the previous I thought I'd best respond and clarify that I am not any sort of 'Fundie Creationist' and maybe say a little about my real attitudes.

In my post that was actually on topic, about The People I simply asked 
a question about how they are so like us and proposed a few scenarios that might perhaps explain it. Anyway, 'nuff said'. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sat Jun 15 06:30:24 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:30:24 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <6056233C-8192-4C73-A57B-AA72516DAB54@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <kph1m0+4t5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192446



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ?????alabio??? <Walabio at ...> wrote:
>
> <snip>

Walabio:
> >>That does not work:

> >> We have molecular genetic evidence, fossil-evidence, evidence from homology, et al, clearly indicating that we humans are native to Earth and our closest relatives are the other great apes.  The only way that this can work would be if other aliens scooped up the ancestors of the People from Earth and  dropped those humans off on an alien world, where they became the people.

Geoff:
> > 	So this is where you presumably exercise a "willing suspension of disbelief"?  If I was going to apply criteria such as these, I think I wouldn't be reading anything along the lines of the books we are discussing at all!
> > 	:-)

Walabio?:

> I have a low threshold for this kind of pseudoscience because of previous run-ins with CreaTards (Flat/Young-Earth GeoCentric Creationists).  Compared to the pseudoscience CreaTards spout, all humans being space-aliens sounds downright scientific.  Do not get me started on the straw men they build!

Geoff:
Getting the topic back on track, I think you missed my point (and my smiley). 
If you want to enjoy fantasy writing - whether it's along the line of stories in 
HP/LOTR/Narnia genre or sci-fi such as Star Trek and Star Wars, then there is 
obviously a wide range of material available, some of which I assume we would 
all avoid with a barge pole because it's not our cup of tea.

Personally, I have a quite narrow range of material either in films or books and  
was really making the point that, with stuff which we like, we need to allow 
ourselves the luxury of accepting the story as it is - and also enjoy it, which is
what the whole idea is about. I know there are scientists who say very 
pedantically that you can't transport or use replicators or anti-matter but I 
as prepared to lose myself in Star Trek  and I also enjoy HP regardless of 
whether Apparition or Flooing Quidditch is possible or whether dragons or 
Grindylows exist.

If you cannot make that willing suspension somewhere, then you may as 
well settle down for a quiet read with the pages of the Financial Times for a 
restful evening. :-)

Just in passing,  John, there was no need to email one of your replies to me
separately; I keep close tabs on Main. Also,  I have been a Christian since my 
college days, so I don't believe in space aliens either. but that's possibly 
something for Off-Topic Chatter and not Main.






From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Sat Jun 15 07:36:17 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:36:17 +0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
Message-ID: <28C18DB0-4EB2-4B25-989E-204E7C926462@MacOSX.Com>

>	John:
> 	Hi Walabio, I hope from what you wrote that you do not consider ME some sort of Fundie Creationist, or any of the panoply of dead heads you list above. In fact despite my email address and 'pen name' as Oriondruid I am not even any sort of Theist, and hold no religious beliefs as being the absolute truth and the only genuine revelation direct from some sort of God/Goddess!
>

	Walabio?:

	?Apologies!:

	I did not make myself clear, leading to you misunderstanding me.  The error is on my part.

	I meant to express that because of run-ins with CreaTards trying to miseducate children, to believe creationistic pseudoscience, sensitized me so that now pseudoscience triggers red alert.  Frankly, I never even considered your name to mean anything:

	We are all pseudonymous here.  Our names are whimsical.  That is why I use "Walabio".  I am not even RoseMary:

	Years ago, I did a Project for a woman named RoseMary.  As a placeholder, I called it Project RoseMary.  For some reason, YaHoo believes that I am Project RoseMary.  I am not RoseMary.  The odds are only approximately ~50%/~50% that I am a woman.



From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Jun 15 12:57:23 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 08:57:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <28C18DB0-4EB2-4B25-989E-204E7C926462@MacOSX.Com>
References: <28C18DB0-4EB2-4B25-989E-204E7C926462@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <51BC64B3.50009@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192448

On 6/15/2013 3:36 AM, alabio wrote:
> I meant to express that because of run-ins with CreaTards trying to 
> miseducate children, to believe creationistic pseudoscience, 
> sensitized me so that now pseudoscience triggers red alert.

  Bart:
     Can you please explain to me the term "CreaTards"?

     Bart



From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 14:46:25 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:46:25 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kph1m0+4t5m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kphuo1+2gp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192449



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ?????alabio??? <Walabio@> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> 
> Walabio:
> > >>That does not work:
> 
> > >> We have molecular genetic evidence, fossil-evidence, evidence from homology, et al, clearly indicating that we humans are native to Earth and our closest relatives are the other great apes.  The only way that this can work would be if other aliens scooped up the ancestors of the People from Earth and  dropped those humans off on an alien world, where they became the people.
> 
> Geoff:
> > > 	So this is where you presumably exercise a "willing suspension of disbelief"?  If I was going to apply criteria such as these, I think I wouldn't be reading anything along the lines of the books we are discussing at all!
> > > 	:-)
> 
> Walabio?:
> 
> > I have a low threshold for this kind of pseudoscience because of previous run-ins with CreaTards (Flat/Young-Earth GeoCentric Creationists).  Compared to the pseudoscience CreaTards spout, all humans being space-aliens sounds downright scientific.  Do not get me started on the straw men they build!
> 
> Geoff:
> Getting the topic back on track, I think you missed my point (and my smiley). 
> If you want to enjoy fantasy writing - whether it's along the line of stories in 
> HP/LOTR/Narnia genre or sci-fi such as Star Trek and Star Wars, then there is 
> obviously a wide range of material available, some of which I assume we would 
> all avoid with a barge pole because it's not our cup of tea.
> 
> Personally, I have a quite narrow range of material either in films or books and  
> was really making the point that, with stuff which we like, we need to allow 
> ourselves the luxury of accepting the story as it is - and also enjoy it, which is
> what the whole idea is about. I know there are scientists who say very 
> pedantically that you can't transport or use replicators or anti-matter but I 
> as prepared to lose myself in Star Trek  and I also enjoy HP regardless of 
> whether Apparition or Flooing Quidditch is possible or whether dragons or 
> Grindylows exist.
> 
> If you cannot make that willing suspension somewhere, then you may as 
> well settle down for a quiet read with the pages of the Financial Times for a 
> restful evening. :-)
> 
> Just in passing,  John, there was no need to email one of your replies to me
> separately; I keep close tabs on Main. Also,  I have been a Christian since my 
> college days, so I don't believe in space aliens either. but that's possibly 
> something for Off-Topic Chatter and not Main.
>





From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 14:55:10 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:55:10 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kph1m0+4t5m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kphv8e+p18e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192450



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
snipped


> Just in passing,  John, there was no need to email one of your replies to me
> separately; I keep close tabs on Main. Also,  I have been a Christian since my 
> college days, so I don't believe in space aliens either. but that's possibly 
> something for Off-Topic Chatter and not Main.

Sorry about the email Geoff.
I am not used to the way this groups message posting options work, they appear to have chaged some since I last used to be a member of any and it was not intentional. But I'll try and figure out whats going on with my posts and why they are being emailed direct, since it was and (if this does the same) is in fact unintentional.

As to Christian opinion on space aliens, quite a lot of people who are Christians see no difficulty in believing in life on other planets, intelligent or otherwise. But on the other hand quite a few of other faiths and of none at all do not accept the possibility, so 'yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice' on that matter no matter your belief status. :o)

As to me, well I strongly tend towards the possibility of alien life 'out there' somewhere, but if we'll ever find positive proof of it, well I'm happy to wait and see. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 15:08:24 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:08:24 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kphv8e+p18e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpi018+6si4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192451



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oriondruid at ..." <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
By the way Geoff, forgot to say I have been able to track down electronic versions of the two Alan Garner books you suggested and I'll be 'taking a butchers' as Cockneys say (Butchers = Butchers Hook = Look in rhyming slang)as and when I have time, as I am in the process of moving to Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire from London this weekend.
Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid)





From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 15:43:09 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:43:09 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <28C18DB0-4EB2-4B25-989E-204E7C926462@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <kpi22d+su3o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192452



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ?????alabio??? <Walabio at ...> wrote:
>
> >	John:
> > 	Hi Walabio, I hope from what you wrote that you do not consider ME some sort of Fundie Creationist, or any of the panoply of dead heads you list above. In fact despite my email address and 'pen name' as Oriondruid I am not even any sort of Theist, and hold no religious beliefs as being the absolute truth and the only genuine revelation direct from some sort of God/Goddess!

snipped
> >
> 
> 	Walabio?:
> 
> 	?Apologies!:
> 
> 	I did not make myself clear, leading to you misunderstanding me.  The error is on my part.


John:
Thanks for clarifying that Walabio, and I fully accept the apology, but it was really not needed. Perhaps I myself was a little oversensitive. I have had similar run-ins on the net with people of utterly fixed and unshakeable views, who are not prepared to even contemplate they might be in the slightest bit wrong and indeed believe that everyone else should be made to think the way they do, by force if necessary. Sadly the world holds too many such idiots and they can escalate to become a real danger to us all, as the daily news from around the world shows all too clearly. So I fully understand where you are coming from. :o)

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From lynde4 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 16:13:00 2013
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 09:13:00 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <28C18DB0-4EB2-4B25-989E-204E7C926462@MacOSX.Com>
References: <28C18DB0-4EB2-4B25-989E-204E7C926462@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iMCv3+fgA7FZ+k90=OhoYZ_6fzMuKHBzgmA8PVc+XFROA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192453


> > John:
> > Hi Walabio, I hope from what you wrote that you do not consider ME some
> sort of Fundie Creationist, or any of the panoply of dead heads you list
> above. <snip>
>
> Walabio :
>
> ?Apologies!:
>
> I did not make myself clear, leading to you misunderstanding me. The error
> is on my part.
>
> I meant to express that because of run-ins with CreaTards trying to
> miseducate children, to believe creationistic pseudoscience, sensitized me
> so that now pseudoscience triggers red alert. Frankly, I never even
> considered your name to mean anything:
> <snip>


I always find it interesting when people choose to let their personal
antipathies interfere with their enjoyment of fiction. Always. . .

These books we're talking about now are just that, fiction. There's no
place for throwing aspersions around concerning the "world" a book or
series of books is written in or those who either wrote or read those books.

Lynda




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sat Jun 15 21:31:09 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:31:09 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kpi018+6si4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpimet+4chb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192454

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oriondruid at ..." <oriondruid at ...> wrote:
--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oriondruid@" <oriondruid@> wrote:

John:
> By the way Geoff, forgot to say I have been able to track down electronic versions of the two Alan Garner books you suggested and I'll be 'taking a butchers' as Cockneys say (Butchers = Butchers Hook = Look in rhyming slang)as and when I have time, as I am in the process of moving to Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire from London this weekend.

Geoff:
Don't know Aylesbury particularly well, but my eldest son and his wife 
lived in Aston Clinton for several years before moving to Toronto.

Well, I'm sure you'll enjoy a cup of "Rosie Lee" while you wait for your "dog 
and bone" to be reconnected!
:-)














From oriondruid at gmail.com  Sun Jun 16 01:12:15 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 01:12:15 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kpimet+4chb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpj3df+am5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192455



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>

> 
> Geoff:
> Don't know Aylesbury particularly well, but my eldest son and his wife 
> lived in Aston Clinton for several years before moving to Toronto.
> 
> Well, I'm sure you'll enjoy a cup of "Rosie Lee" while you wait for your "dog 
> and bone" to be reconnected!
> :-)
>
John:
So you 'speeka de lingo' of London's East End too I see Geoff, not terribly surprising though as you are a fellow Brit. :o)

But for our non British group members demistification...

Rosie Lee = Tea
Dog and Bone = Telephone

also much other rhyming slang exists such as...

Apples and Pears = Stairs
Ruby Murray = Curry
Rub-a-dub = Pub, a public house, meaning a bar. 

There is more or less an entire language based on this rhyming slang and a google search will point you to a website which has much information about this Cockney cultural feature.

Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid).





From oriondruid at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 09:00:18 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:00:18 -0000
Subject: The ongoing fandom for Harry Potter.
Message-ID: <kpmj72+js26@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192456

Hi All.

The huge and active fandom for the Harry Potter series of books and films, unlike many other 'cultural phemomena' and 'crazes' in popular culture continues to be strong and flourishing despite the fact that author has completed her labours in creating this hugely popular series. and also, of course, the very popular series of films based sometimes slightly loosely (and in the case of DH2 very loosely) on JKR's books have reached the end of their 'franchise and no more will be made.

Nonetheless HP fandom remains very strong and flourishing, this message board in itself being proof of this fact. So why do we still care enough to show so much interest?

Well I think several factors are in play in the HP fandom that 'keep the ball rolling'. Firstly the unique nature of the Harry Potter story, which unlike most series written for children was intended to 'mature' with it's readership as the tale unfolded into it's complex and multi-layered form, which therefore let it appeal not just to children but to adults too. 

Indeed I'm sure many adults must have first been introduced to Harry's story via their children's enthusiasm, perhaps joining the associated phenomena of the 'midnight openings' of bookstores for each new release and taking their kids to them, meeting other fans and joining the fun events associated with these book launches. Many other parents must have got 'hooked' whilst ostensibly reading the books as bedtime stories for their kids.

Hence here in Britain it became quite common to see people sat on the train, bus or tube (underground railway) reading the books as they commuted. As a nod to this phenomena there were even 'adult versions' of the books sold, with more 'grown up' looking dust jacket pictures which fooled no-one. :o)

Why do I consider the fact that adults feature strongly amongst Harry Potter fans to contribute to the fandom's ongoing enthusiasm? Well of course we tend to have a longer 'attention span' anyway and also adults possibly see the greater depths in the stories meaning that on discussion boards such as this we have much to talk about. Whereas most young kids simply read the stories for what they superficially are, bloody good adventure stories with incredible magical events.

Of course amongst teenagers who had not been introduced to Harry Potter tales whilst still children they are sometimes considered 'not cool', but many kids did grow up familiar with the stories and continued to like the books and films as they got older. In any case for the teenage girls who didn't like Harry Potter their tastes in angst and romance were well catered for by the Twighlight series of books and films. ;o) 

For the rest of us we have also got an alternative now that the 'franchise is over, but like many Harry Potter fans I have added this to my internal 'favourites list' and certainly not dropped my enthusiasm for Harry Potter. This new love of course being Suzanne Collins' brilliant creation The Hunger Games and it's associated films.

Another phenomena which helps sustain the HP fandom are the huge number of fan fiction writers who continue unabated to write very large numbers of Harry Potter based stories and post them on several websites dedicated to giving such writing a place to be read. The numbers of fan works shows not only how popular the Potter stories still are, but also how loved the characters created by JKR are with people, who love them enough to write new adventures and relationships for them to experience.:o)

Fan works can vary in quality hugely, from awful efforts with terrible grammar and painfully bad narrative content, right up to utterly brilliant efforts, by writers who really understand how to write good fiction. Indeed I'd say at their best some write stories fully up to professional standards. As to my own efforts in this field, well, let's just say I'm middling, my grammar is OK for the most part, I feel fully capable of devising good and original plot lines, but I am aware how weak I am in writing dialogue. However, I'm getting better at it all the time (I hope), and I am pleased to say that I get mainly positive reviews for my efforts. :o)

The main fan fiction website upon which huge numbers of Harry Potter fan works can be read as well as tales from other genres such as Twilight, The Hunger Games and many other fandoms is, I'm sure, well known to most members here. If not feel free to PM me and I'll give you the web address and that of other similar sites with good content.

The Harry Potter fandom also still has great resources online, which help sustain interest, such as many high quality websites devoted to the subject, like Pottermore (the official site), The Leaky Cauldron, The Harry Potter Lexicon (a magnificent resource) and the Wiki, also Mugglenet plus many others.

Do I see this enthusiasm dying out any time soon? No, it may reduce slowly over time but always new generations will fall in love with Jo's magnificent creation. Plus among existing fans the interest is too widespread and deeply held to simply cease to exist like other short term crazes do. Plus, of course, if dearest Jo eventually decides later on a to return to writing tales set in her Wizarding World, (such as a prequel James/Lily Marauders era set of tales or perhaps 'next generation' stories), then of course Planetary Dominance will once again be fully re-established and we'll all be back to 'business as usual'. :o)

Many Blessings All.
John, (Oriondruid).









From isoeternalrival at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 14:15:58 2013
From: isoeternalrival at gmail.com (mx_crowry)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:15:58 -0000
Subject: The ongoing fandom for Harry Potter.
In-Reply-To: <kpmj72+js26@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpn5mu+k3dl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192457

> John:
> Why do I consider the fact that adults feature strongly amongst Harry
Potter fans to contribute to the fandom's ongoing enthusiasm? Well of
course we tend to have a longer 'attention span' anyway and also adults
possibly see the greater depths in the stories meaning that on
discussion boards such as this we have much to talk about. Whereas most
young kids simply read the stories for what they superficially are,
bloody good adventure stories with incredible magical events.
>


Hey John! :) (I am replying particularly to the bit I've left
unsnipped.)
I have been lurking in this group for months now, reading through the
messages posted here as they arrive in my email, but this will be my
first post. I think the Harry Potter fandom, like the other Big Fandoms
in history (starting with the Christian Bible, Arthurian Legends, Jane
Austen books, the Sherlock Holmes stories, fairy tales, Lord of the
Rings, and most notably as The Fandom, Star Trek), Harry Potter will
outlive its first generation. I think you're correct in thinking that
adults are crucial in the upkeep and continued discussion and creation
of Harry Potter fanworks, but that maybe you're not considering that the
children who matured with the Harry Potter books are now adults.

I was 17 when Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was released, and it
was the fifth book I got on pre-order. I was one of the Harry Potter
children, I am sure at least half my generation would tell you the same
thing, and as an adult, I remain a Harry Potter fan. I think young fans'
participation is important because unlike fans who were introduced to
the series as adults, we have the benefit of experiencing the story from
multiple perspectives. Reading the books as a child, I blindly accepted
the story. I didn't think to challenge the narrative, or process it
critically. I accepted that Gryffindors were chivalrous and brave and,
because of J.K.R.'s personal Gryffindor bias, that they were the Good
Guys, always. I accepted that Dumbledore meant well, among many other
things. But I didn't stop interacting with the books, and now, years
later, I find myself reading and re-reading and taking extensive notes.
I take notes on characterization, and on the underlying themes in the
books, the types of narrative presented by each character?my friends
and I discuss the deficit of representation in the series, of both
people of color and LGBT*QIA people (JKR's post-publishing announcement
of "Dumbledore is gay!" notwithstanding).

And this lends itself to transformative fanworks. Fanfiction is how we
learned to write, how we learned to think critically. The best writers
I've read lately have all been in their 20s. The thing about fandom is,
in my opinion, it's not just about how much you love a work.
I am a 23 year old queer trans* person, and when I reread the Harry
Potter series and wish, as I have since I was a child, that I could be a
wizard, that I could immerse myself in the fantastical world of Harry
Potter fully, the canon presents no place for me. I and people like me
find ourselves asking, are there queer wizards? Are there trans*
wizards? Where are they? Is the lack of discussion about sexualities
other than "straight as heck" or gender identities other than
"completely cis" in canon a sign of universal acceptance? Or is it, as
it is in the Real World, just erasure?

We keep creating fanworks because we feel like there is no place for us
in this fictional world we love so much, the one that we matured with,
and matured past. We are able to sympathise with Harry's disillusionment
with the authority figures in his life, with his feelings of loss, and
with the uncertainty of his future. As we transition from adolescence to
adulthood and re-evaluate the stories, we can compare our initial
reactions, the things we took at face value because JKR told us to, with
our mistrust of the material. We can recognize that Harry was
emotionally manipulated for his entire adolescence. We can recognize
that Hermione was amiss in her efforts with House Elf Liberation, in a
sort of second-wave feminism way. We can recognize that Remus Lupin's
story was that of a queer man with HIV?the deteriorating illness,
the sapping of youth, the self hate, the entire "outing" narrative of
the third book?and that Severus Snape was not a hero, but a man who
made many mistakes, had an unhealthy obsession with them, and died in
his determination to right his wrongs.

There are fests going on now for the creation of Harry Potter fanworks
in which hundreds of people participate. There are discussions occurring
over blogs and microblogs about the series. I obviously cannot say for
certain, but I can guess based on experience that the majority of these
are run by young people.

This post got very much away from me, haha. I myself write fanfiction
and do fanart frequently, and am currently in the process of gathering
material for a fanzine for release in July. If anything, my interest in
the Harry Potter series grows more potent over time, and as more
fanworks are created that critically examine the narrative, fill the
holes JK Rowling left, and reverse the erasure she wrote into her
stories, the more my love and enjoyment also grows.

Respectfully, C







From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Mon Jun 17 19:56:05 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:56:05 +0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <1371374095.1388.66686.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1371374095.1388.66686.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <7309617E-8733-4566-846D-11676138F575@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192458

> 	Bart:
> 	Can you please explain to me the term "CreaTards"?


	Walabio:

CreaTard:
	Young/Flat-Earth GeoCentric Creationist

	CreaTards want to miseducate our children.



From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Mon Jun 17 19:56:13 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:56:13 +0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <1371374095.1388.66686.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1371374095.1388.66686.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <447EA885-2366-4B9D-A41B-A0BACFBBAC24@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192459

>> Geoff:
>> Just in passing,  John, there was no need to email one of your replies to me separately; I keep close tabs on Main. Also,  I have been a Christian since my college days, so I don't believe in space aliens either. but that's possibly  something for Off-Topic Chatter and not Main.
	[snip/]

> John:
> As to Christian opinion on space aliens, quite a lot of people who are Christians see no difficulty in believing in life on other planets, intelligent or otherwise. But on the other hand quite a few of other faiths and of none at all do not accept the possibility, so 'yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice' on that matter no matter your belief status. :o)
>
> As to me, well I strongly tend towards the possibility of alien life 'out there' somewhere, but if we'll ever find positive proof of it, well I'm happy to wait and see. :o)
	[snip/]


Walabio:

	I find this fascinating.  I neither believe nor disbelieve in alien life.  I require evidence to believe.  That said, if life can arise 1 place, it could arise other places.  For that reason, alien life is extremely probable, but Geoff dogmatically rejects it.

	Oh Geoff, I have 2 question for you:

	If we would find life, let us say, in the aquifers of Mars, ?would you accept the evidence or go into denial?  If you would go into denial, ?would you deliberately miseducate children?




From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Mon Jun 17 19:56:23 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:56:23 +0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <1371374095.1388.66686.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1371374095.1388.66686.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <A18CF8E8-BE2F-4D40-889F-BB05B69CB14C@MacOSX.Com>

	[snip/]
> 	John:
> 	???	I have had similar run-ins on the net with people of utterly fixed and unshakeable views, who are not prepared to even contemplate they might be in the slightest bit wrong and indeed believe that everyone else should be made to think the way they do, by force if necessary. Sadly the world holds too many such idiots and they can escalate to become a real danger to us all, as the daily news from around the world shows all too clearly. So I fully understand where you are coming from. :o)
>

	Walabio?:

	??Wow!  You just described CreaTards to a T.  It seems that we have common enemies.



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Jun 17 20:48:21 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:48:21 -0000
Subject: Rhyming slang in the HP series
Message-ID: <kpnsml+j28o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192461

Geoff:
Since John and I have deviated off-topic a few posts ago, I thought I would 
legitimise things and look at Cockney rhyming slang in the context of the 
HP books.

If you know about rhyming slang, skip details in any following paragraphs 
with which you are familiar.

A true Cockney is a Londoner born within the sound of Bow Bells, the bells 
of St, Mary-le-Bow, Bow being a district in the inner East End of London. 
Rhyming slang is a style of speaking where a word is replaced by one with 
which it rhymes and this is used in regular speech. Just to confuse things, 
if the rhyme is two words, the second word is often omitted. Many rhyming 
slang phrases have been adopted by non-Cockney groups and are not 
known as such.

To give an example, I grew up n the North of England and moved to London 
with my family at the tender age of 9, speaking with a broad Lancashire 
accent. One early instance of not understanding the pattern was in my early d
ays at secondary school when guys would do something like pulling out a 
comb with a remark like "I must tidy up my barnet". Obviously, the word had 
something to do with hair, but it was some years before I discovered that the 
ull rhyming slang was "Barnet Fair". Barnet is a area of North London, several 
miles out from the centre (and curiously outside Cockney territory). Anyone 
with London knowledge may recognise it as one of the terminal stations on 
the London Underground Northern Line. Another which is often used in 
conversation when a listener does not get what is being said is "Use your loaf".  Translation: Loaf = Load of bread = Head. Hence "Use your head", "Use your 
brain", "Think".

To link to canon I did a little researching into rhyming slang in HP and did 
uncover some cases; there may be more. The only Londoner who readily 
comes to mind is Dean Thomas who is not featured and the others come 
from a variety of regions and backgrounds They are spoken by a range of 
folk, indicating that the slang is widely used.

So, here are a few examples for your perusal. 

(1) "rabbit" = "rabbit and pork" = talk (dreadful rhyme! generally means 
talking a lot)

`He (Hagrid) looked suddenly suspicious. "Yer not still lookin' fer Nicholas 
Flamel, are yeh?"
"Oh, we found out who he is ages ago," said Ron impressively. "And we 
know what the dog's guarding, it's a Philosopher's St-"
"Shhhh!" Hagrid looked around quickly to see if anyone was listening. 
"Don' go shouting about it, what's the matter with yeh?"
There are a few things we wanted to ask you, as a matter of fact," said 
Harry, "about what's guarding the Sgtone apart from Fluffy-"
"SHHHH!" said Hagrid again. "Listen = come an; see me later. I'm not 
promisin' I'll tell yeh anything mind but don' go rabbitin' about it in 
here."'
(PS "Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback" UK edition p.168)

(2) "dicky bird" = word.

`Percy threw Fred an extremely nasty look and stoked the fire vigorously 
to bring the kettle back to the boil.
"Any news of Bertha Jorkins yet, Ludo?" Mr. Weasley asked, as Bagman 
settled himself down on the grass beside them all.
"Not a dicky bird," said Bagman comfortably. "But she'll turn up
"'

(GOF "Bagman and Crouch" p.82 UK edition)

(3) "berk" is a double contraction. "Berk" pronounced as spelt = "Berkshire". 
This is an English county to the west of London and is pronounced "BArkshire", 
one of those odd "e"s sounded as "a"s ? such as "Derby" and "clerk". This 
in turn = "Berkshire hunt" and is the rhyming slang for a word which my 
sensibilities will not allow me to type save to say that it is an extremely 
unpleasant word in the f-word category originally used very pejoratively. 
However, over the years, possibly because many people do not know its 
source, it has become a very mild word, often used jokingly with friends 
and meaning "silly" or "stupid".

`Lupin looked sideways at Sirius, then said, "Look, Harry, what you've got 
to understand is that your father and Sirius were the best in the school at 
whatever they did ? everyone thought they were the height of cool - if they 
sometimes got a bit carried away-"
"If we were sometimes arrogant little berks, you mean." said Sirius.
Lupin smiled.'

(OOTP "Careers Advice" UK edition pp.590/91)

`"Mr. Dumbledore?" said Hermione rather timidly, "Is that your sister? 
Ariana?"
"Yes," said Aberforth tersely. "Been reading Rita Skeeter, have you missy?"
Even by the rosy light of the fire it was clear that Hermione had turned 
red.
"Elphias Doge mentioned her to us," said Harry, trying to spare Hermione.
"That old berk," muttered Aberforth, taking another swig of mead. 
"Thought the sun shone out of my brother's every orifice, he did."

(DH "the Missing Mirror" UK edition p.454)

(4) "Scarper" = derived from Scapa Flow" = to go (in the sense of 
running away. Scapa Flow was a very large Naval  base in the North of 
Scotland.

`(Aberforth speaking about Ariana's death}
"Gone," croaked Aberforth. "Gone forever."
He wiped his nose on his cuff and cleared his throat.
"Course, Grindelwald scarpered. He had a bit of a track record 
already, back in his own country and he didn't want Ariana set to 
his account also."'

(DH "The Missing Mirrror" UK edition p.457)

I think you will realise from these examples that rhyming slang mainly 
tends to be used in casual conversation but they will also show that a 
range of folk use them and that they fulfil differing needs. As I have 
already said, many people use it without realising that it originates in 
this language quirk of London but hopefully, these notes might shed 
a little more light on idiomatic UK English for those who have not grown 
up learning its delights in their childhood.









From oriondruid at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 00:32:13 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:32:13 -0000
Subject: Rhyming slang in the HP series
In-Reply-To: <kpnsml+j28o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpo9qd+gjl9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192462



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> Since John and I have deviated off-topic a few posts ago, I thought I would 
> legitimise things and look at Cockney rhyming slang in the context of the 
> HP books.

Snipped.

Hi again Geoff.

Thanks for that master class on common usage of various phrases in English that derive from or are slang. Several of these I of course knew, but by no means all.

I'd add Nymphadora Tonks in canon who of course has a habit of using a bit of non rhyming slang, ( as far as I know) probably derived  from Cockney (ish)language as a common greeting. Her cheery Wotcher (or alternative usage Wotcha) Harry! is an example not just of Tonk's friendliness and slight eccentricity, but also her command of Cockney/East End figures of speech. The exact meaning of this greeting can possibly be said to be exactly the same as that used by the natives of Pandora in the film Avatar, in which they greet each other with 'I see you'. Both as a  greeting and a marker of recognition.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).  




From lynde4 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 00:39:10 2013
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 17:39:10 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <447EA885-2366-4B9D-A41B-A0BACFBBAC24@MacOSX.Com>
References: <1371374095.1388.66686.m7@yahoogroups.com>
	<447EA885-2366-4B9D-A41B-A0BACFBBAC24@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iNjKBpOkENEKnGU4jdWoesFLbWE2fo3GRssWhxwO_H=hw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192463

> >> Geoff:
> >> <snip> Also, I have been a Christian
> since my college days, so I don't believe in space aliens either. but that's possibly something for Off-Topic Chatter and not Main.
> [snip/]
>
> > John:
> > As to Christian opinion on space aliens, quite a lot of people who are
> Christians see no difficulty in believing in life on other planets,
> intelligent or otherwise. [snip/]
>
> Walabio:
>
> I find this fascinating. I neither believe nor disbelieve in alien life. I require evidence to believe. That said, if life can arise 1
> place, it could arise other places. <snip>


As to Christian opinion on space aliens, quite a lot of people who are
Christians see no difficulty in believing in life on other planets,
intelligent or otherwise.

Yeah. Me for instance. As a Christian I have absolutely no problem
believing that life on other planets is entirely possible. Many of my
fellow believers do not however. That doesn't keep us from having fun
together or sharing other beliefs, however.

Lynda



From kelleyscorpio at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 01:05:25 2013
From: kelleyscorpio at gmail.com (kelleyelf)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 01:05:25 -0000
Subject: Admin re:  Christianity and Existence of Alien Life
Message-ID: <kpobol+ul41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192464

Hello, everyone--

This discussion is quite fascinating, but as Geoff has pointed
out, it really doesn't belong on the main list.

Please continue on our Off Topic list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/HPfGU-OTChatter

Thanks so much, everybody.

--Kelley, for HPforGrownups




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Jun 18 06:46:27 2013
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 06:46:27 -0000
Subject: Rhyming slang in the HP series
In-Reply-To: <kpo9qd+gjl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpovo3+4ppa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192465

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oriondruid at ..." <oriondruid at ...> wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123@> wrote:
Geoff:
> > Since John and I have deviated off-topic a few posts ago, I thought I would 
> > legitimise things and look at Cockney rhyming slang in the context of the 
> > HP books.

> Snipped.
 
John:
> Hi again Geoff.
 
> Thanks for that master class on common usage of various phrases in English that derive from or are slang. Several of these I of course knew, but by no means all.
 
> I'd add Nymphadora Tonks in canon who of course has a habit of using a bit of non rhyming slang, ( as far as I know) probably derived  from Cockney (ish)language as a common greeting. Her cheery Wotcher (or alternative usage Wotcha) Harry! is an example not just of Tonk's friendliness and slight eccentricity, but also her command of Cockney/East End figures of speech. The exact meaning of this greeting can possibly be said to be exactly the same as that used by the natives of Pandora in the film Avatar, in which they greet each other with 'I see you'. Both as a  greeting and a marker of recognition.

Geoff:
Hardly a master class! There's a great stack of rhyming slang words around 
- I still get caught out...

Although not a Londoner (I moved there from Lancashire at the age of nine
and spent 45 years in the Wandsworth/Wimbledon area until I moved to the 
Exmoor area when I took early retirement) I have obviously absorbed a lot of 
"London speak". Teaching on a housing estate for over 30 years helped as 
well. I must admit that, even now, I will still hail someone rom time to time 
with a "Wotcher".

I read somewhere that this greeting is derived from "What cheer?", like a 
number of phrases which have arisen from mishearing or sloppy speech.

There are variants of speech in the HP books. For example, I see Hagrid 
as speaking with a rather coarse West Country accent. 

There has been speculation about Ron in the past. Some folk think the 
family is a West Country one because they live at Ottery St. Catchpole.
which obviously makes a UK reader think of Ottery St.Mary in Devon
and JKR herself comes from Yate, which is just on the edge of Bristol.

I often tease people by saying "Where do you think I come from?", having,
much to my regret,  lost my North Country accent- the one I most 
appreciated was "educated London". 
:-)










From oriondruid at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 13:01:00 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:01:00 -0000
Subject: Admin re:  Christianity and Existence of Alien Life
In-Reply-To: <kpobol+ul41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpplmc+uos6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192466



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kelleyelf" <kelleyscorpio at ...> wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone--
> 
> This discussion is quite fascinating, but as Geoff has pointed
> out, it really doesn't belong on the main list.
> 
> Please continue on our Off Topic list:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/HPfGU-OTChatter
> 
> Thanks so much, everybody.
> 
> --Kelley, for HPforGrownups
>


John:
Hi Kelley and All.

I agree with the above and have posted a new topic regarding inflexible fundamentalis of assorted kinds as suggested.

Perhaps another thread about different regional accents and slang in HP writing might best be started too, either in chat or if canon in main, as it to seems to have strayed from the original post topic. Just a thought.
Many Blessings All
John, (Oriondruid)




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 23:34:42 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:34:42 -0000
Subject: The ongoing fandom for Harry Potter.
In-Reply-To: <kpn5mu+k3dl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <kpqqqi+q0fi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192467





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mx_crowry" <isoeternalrival at ...> wrote:
>

> Hey John! :) (I am replying particularly to the bit I've left
> unsnipped.)
> I have been lurking in this group for months now, reading through the
> messages posted here as they arrive in my email, but this will be my
> first post. 

Snipped.

>
Hi there 'C'.

Thanks for 'uncloaking' or to go into  Star trek mode de-cloaking to make your first post and reply to my thread, welcome, it's nice to hear from you.

I'm glad you agree with some of my premise but no, I do not by any means discount the influence and enthusiasm of the 'Harry Potter Generation' who grew up with the stories as they themselves matured in scope and depth, thanks to Jo's genius writing. :o)

I am highly aware and you will see if you look on my FF.net profile page, that the majority of the writers there are very much my juniors and as I always say, this is no bad thing at all. These young people's writing is often superb and surpasses my own limited efforts. Also, thanks to the PM system on the website I am in direct communication and even collaboration with other writers, several of whom are many years younger than myself, and in two of whom I see great promise and talent. :o)

The good thing about the sort of PM system on the Fan Fic website, as opposed to direct email contact is that it is safe and anonymous for the young people concerned and no possible 'downside' risks associated with email contact can occur, no sexual hazards arise and no online bullying or 'grooming' is easily possible. so given that even an 'old geezer' like me can happily and safely chat with writers, some of whom are still only in their teens.

I agree, it must have been wonderful to be a part of that young generation of children who read and grew up with the Harry Potter saga, it was something we older fans could never experience and it was our loss. The experience of gaining a changing, evolving and maturing perspective as the books themselves grew up with their young readership, (thanks to JKR's genius), must have been an incredible experience for young people also.

To learn to read 'beyond the text' and to realise the limitations and boundaries that Jo had necessarily to work within, to come to a full understanding of the deeper meaning of the story themes and to also see what was not and could not be included, such discoveries must have been marvelous. :o)

To go from a child's understanding and pleasure at the early simpler tales to that of a young adult able to see that what one had once thought simple was in fact complex and held many omissions and deliberately obscured possibilities would have been a common experience among many younger Harry Potter fans as they grew up.

For instance the simple admission by JKR that Dumbledore was gay and had a relationship with another male whilst he was a young man was not something she could tacitly admit to or write in a 'children's book' and must have come as a shock to some. But to other young fans as a valediction of their own growing gay sexuality and feelings of self worth. After all if the world's greatest wizard and such a powerful and kind man could achieve what he'd done as a gay person then they must also have felt set free of any limitations they might have previously felt their sexual orientation might impose upon them. :o)

As to fan writing being transformative and liberating, hell yes!

I myself am nominally heterosexual, (that is to say not very actively so but I am oriented that way), but it is not only in such matters of sexuality that fan writing can transform and liberate. I suffer from bouts of severe and apparently incurable clinical depression and sometimes (particularly over the last two years) I can become so withdrawn into misery that I can barely function all day and curl up in a ball of despair, wishing I were dead. 

However luckily I am a normally a night person anyway and so when my depression and accompanying photophobia abaits with the setting sun I find myself able, thanks to the internet and fan fiction, to do something positive and creative, gain some plaudits every now and then (if a story of mine gets well reviewed) and stay in touch with people I know and like in the online writing community. At times this contact and heightened sense of self worth due to the friendship and praise of others has literally been a lifesaver! :o)

Luckily at present the regular onslaught of negativity has abated a lot and I am currently much more stable and happy, and long may this continue to be the case. :o)

I'm not sure I agree about what you said when you wrote....

"We keep creating fanworks because we feel like there is no place for us in this fictional world we love so much, the one that we matured with, and matured past."

I certainly don't feel that way, I may not perhaps have matured as much as some, as I still feel at home in the Wizarding World, still feel it's wonder and even if I now see it's necessary flaws and omissions, due to the context within which it was written about by Jo I know I for one would still love to get that long awaited letter that would lead me into that 'other world' and out of this one, with all it's far greater flaws and man-made vileness.

Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid).




From oriondruid at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 21:54:40 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 21:54:40 -0000
Subject: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <CAAVn2iNjKBpOkENEKnGU4jdWoesFLbWE2fo3GRssWhxwO_H=hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <kpt9b0+pgu3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192468



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova <lynde4 at ...> wrote:


Snipped.

> Yeah. Me for instance. As a Christian I have absolutely no problem
> believing that life on other planets is entirely possible. Many of my
> fellow believers do not however. That doesn't keep us from having fun
> together or sharing other beliefs, however.
> 
> Lynda
>
Hi Lynda
Thanks for your contribution and confirmation of what I wrote regarding the variety of opinion not just between faith groups but also within them. Your attitude shows that you most certainly are happy to and prepared to  permit others to hold differing opinions from yourself , that is to say you are not a fixated 'fundie' but a reasonable and rational person
Many Blessings.
John, (Oriondruid)




From lynde4 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 03:31:56 2013
From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:31:56 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parallels in other's fiction to that of JKR.
In-Reply-To: <kpt9b0+pgu3@eGroups.com>
References: <CAAVn2iNjKBpOkENEKnGU4jdWoesFLbWE2fo3GRssWhxwO_H=hw@mail.gmail.com>
	<kpt9b0+pgu3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAAVn2iNFnABuCg2Sd=DngqwZnhLbcb5fOe-AjrScQN0AhorO6Q@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192469

> John:
> Hi Lynda
> Thanks for your contribution and confirmation of what I wrote regarding
> the variety of opinion not just between faith groups but also within them.
> Your attitude shows that you most certainly are happy to and prepared to
> permit others to hold differing opinions from yourself , that is to say you
> are not a fixated 'fundie' but a reasonable and rational person
> Many Blessings.
> John, (Oriondruid)



Thanks, Oriondruid!

If we all held the same opinions, even within our faith groups, it would
get boring pretty quickly, wouldn't it? And as for those who don't belong
to the same belief system I do, well that would be kind of ludicrous.

I'm more than happy to read many and varied works and hope that others do
too, although I understand why some don't.

Lynda




From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Fri Jun 21 05:01:44 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 05:01:44 +0000
Subject: DeathEaterDogma!
Message-ID: <5CE976A3-C7D3-41E3-9A2D-44F3809F9727@MacOSX.Com>

	Hello!

	How fare you?

	On the ChatterList, I conversation with John, I came to the conclusion that dogma and the willingness to act on it is the problem.  This brings us back to ontopicness:

	The DeathEaters are dogmatic.  This is their dogma:

	*	DeathEaters should rule the world.
	*	MuggleBorns ought to die.
	*	Muggles should be slaves with no rights.

	The DeathEaters are dogmatic.  Members of the Order of the Phoenix are not dogmatic.

	Peace!

--

	Walabio? <Walabio at MacOSX.Com>

Skype:
	Walabio

An IntactWiki:
	http://circleaks.org/

	"You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts".

	Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan



From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Jun 21 12:17:51 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 08:17:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DeathEaterDogma!
In-Reply-To: <5CE976A3-C7D3-41E3-9A2D-44F3809F9727@MacOSX.Com>
References: <5CE976A3-C7D3-41E3-9A2D-44F3809F9727@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <51C4446F.10108@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192471

On 6/21/2013 1:01 AM, alabio wrote:
> 	On the ChatterList, I conversation with John, I came to the conclusion that dogma and the willingness to act on it is the problem.  This brings us back to ontopicness:
>
> 	The DeathEaters are dogmatic.  This is their dogma:
>
> 	*	DeathEaters should rule the world.
> 	*	MuggleBorns ought to die.
> 	*	Muggles should be slaves with no rights.
>
> 	The DeathEaters are dogmatic.  Members of the Order of the Phoenix are not dogmatic.

     Actually, the Deatheaters are extremely pragmatic; they rely on 
their "useful idiot" (to use a term garnered from Stalin) followers to 
be dogmatic. On the other hand, the opponents of the Deatheaters are 
collectivists, willing to subvert their individual needs for the, if you 
will, "greater good". This is important; note that the trio managed to 
get through several key crises because Voldemort's forces got selfish, 
putting their own desires over service to their cause.

     Bart



From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Sat Jun 22 11:03:00 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 11:03:00 +0000
Subject: DeathEaterDogma!
In-Reply-To: <1371895069.925.12253.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1371895069.925.12253.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <D555D55B-EE68-4255-9AD3-ABC934B13CC6@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192472

>> Walabio:
>> 	The DeathEaters are dogmatic.  This is their dogma:
>>
>> 	*	DeathEaters should rule the world.
>> 	*	MuggleBorns ought to die.
>> 	*	Muggles should be slaves with no rights.
>>
>> 	The DeathEaters are dogmatic.  Members of the Order of the
>>  Ph?nix are not dogmatic.

> Bart:
> Actually, the Deatheaters are extremely pragmatic; they rely on
> their "useful idiot" (to use a term garnered from Stalin) followers
> to be dogmatic.


Walabio:
The term is usually credited to Stalin, but this is what the senior
reference librarian at the Library of Congress has to say about the
issue:

Despite often being attributed to Lenin, in 1987, Grant Harris,
senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress, declared that
"We have not been able to identify this phrase among [Lenin's]
published works."

senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress, Grant Harris

At any rate, none ever claimed that all DeathEaters believe the Dogma
(I always suspected that Lucius Malfoy just wanted power and wealth;
while, Wormtail just wanted to stand behind the biggest kid in the
playground for protection), but many DeathEaters buy into the dogma:

The Dark Lord believes it.  The LeStranges in general and the fanatic
Beatrix LeStrange in particular believe the dogma whole-heartedly.

On the other hand, the opponents of the Deatheaters are
collectivists, willing to subvert their individual needs for the, if
you will, "greater good". This is important; note that the trio
managed to get through several key crises because Voldemort's forces
got selfish, putting their own desires over service to their cause.

I believe that you might confuse political communism with
unitcohesion:

Militaryunits have to act in a coordinated way to be effective.  The
order of the Ph?nix does not have an overarching economic policy.

About the DeathEaters lacking cohesion, in the case of Wormtail, he
owed a lifedebt to Harry Potter, but in other cases, it is true:

The Malfoys are a good example:

* Draco Malfoy deliberately misidentifies the Trio because once he
understands what murder really is, he wants no part of it.
* Narcissa Malfoy lied about the death of Harry Potter to the Dark
Lord because she cared more about her son than the cause.

Walabio



From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Jun 22 18:23:58 2013
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 14:23:58 -0400
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?wqFEZWF0aEVhdGVyRG9nbWEh?=
In-Reply-To: <D555D55B-EE68-4255-9AD3-ABC934B13CC6@MacOSX.Com>
References: <1371895069.925.12253.m7@yahoogroups.com> <D555D55B-EE68-4255-9AD3-ABC934B13CC6@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <51C5EBBE.2020104@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192473

Bart:

	Actually, the Deatheaters are extremely pragmatic; they rely on their 
"useful idiot" (to use a term garnered from Stalin) followers to be 
dogmatic.

Walabio:

> 	The term is usually credited to Stalin, but this is what the senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress has to say about the issue:
>
> 	Despite often being attributed to Lenin, in 1987, Grant Harris, senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress, declared that "We have not been able to identify this phrase among [Lenin's] published works."

Bart:
     I said "garnered from Stalin", although I should have said 
"garnered" or "attributed" to Lenin. There are many Russian works 
(including many by Lenin and Stalin) which have never been published in 
the U.S. and therefore would not be in the Library of Congress; here, 
however is a 1987 article by William Safire, one of the world's foremost 
experts on the English language: http://tinyurl.com/lhlsxsd (this points 
to a New York Times article). Now, back on topic.

Walabio:
At any rate, none ever claimed that all DeathEaters believe the Dogma (I 
always suspected that Lucius Malfoy just wanted power and wealth; while, 
Wormtail just wanted to stand behind the biggest kid in the playground 
for protection), but many DeathEaters buy into the dogma: The Dark Lord 
believes it. The LeStranges in general and the fanatic Beatrix LeStrange 
in particular believe the dogma whole-heartedly.

Bart:
     Morty is a half-blood. Also, as Dumbledore makes eminently clear, 
he is after nothing but power, and will say and do anything necessary to 
gain it. Morty, portrayed as a sociopath/psychopath, lacks the ability 
to think of other people as people; he sees them as objects to be 
manipulated to get whatever results he desires.

Bart:
>> 	On the other hand, the opponents of the Deatheaters are collectivists, willing to subvert their individual needs for the, if you will, "greater good". This is important; note that the trio managed to get through several key crises because Voldemort's forces got selfish, putting their own desires over service to their cause.
Walabio:
> 	I believe that you might confuse political communism with unitcohesion:
>
> 	Militaryunits have to act in a coordinated way to be effective.  The order of the Phnix does not have an overarching economic policy.

Bart:
     I said "collectivist", and I meant "collectivist", not "communist". 
Also note that even the members of the goon squads were far more 
interested in who got the credit than in getting the job done.

     Bart



From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Sat Jun 22 19:15:34 2013
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (liz.treky at ntlworld.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 20:15:34 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <51C5EBBE.2020104@moosewise.com>
References: <1371895069.925.12253.m7@yahoogroups.com> <D555D55B-EE68-4255-9AD3-ABC934B13CC6@MacOSX.Com> <51C5EBBE.2020104@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <60C5E86A4A454774925FF92AEE1CC490@LizHP>

No: HPFGUIDX 192474

Hi All

Today, for some strange reason, I got thinking about the ghosts in HP. From 
memory, they are cold to the touch, well not touch, but when they 'interact' 
with a person. I'm sure Harry had that feeling in PS when Sir Nick sat next 
to him. Now, later in the series, I'm sure I remember Myrtle being in the 
bath with Harry (could be a film confusion here though) and he never 
commented about being cold. I also seem to remember Myrtle being in the lake 
too, with again no mention of coldness (that I can remember). This confused 
me! Any thoughts?

The other thought I had was how Sir Nick could be blown out of the way when 
he was petrified. Are ghosts affected by wind?

And lastly, if someone became a ghost, could they ever go back on that 
decision? Or do you think they are tied to that choice for eternity?

Liz 




From mongwen at gmail.com  Sat Jun 22 23:05:00 2013
From: mongwen at gmail.com (Mongwen)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 19:05:00 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <60C5E86A4A454774925FF92AEE1CC490@LizHP>
References: <1371895069.925.12253.m7@yahoogroups.com> <D555D55B-EE68-4255-9AD3-ABC934B13CC6@MacOSX.Com> <51C5EBBE.2020104@moosewise.com> <60C5E86A4A454774925FF92AEE1CC490@LizHP>
Message-ID: <000001ce6f9c$ececb440$c6c61cc0$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192475

Hi Liz. Yes ghosts are cold to the touch in HP and it is mentioned several times. Myrtle was never actually close enough in either bath or lake to touch Harry, so it would not have been any colder than usual in either of those cases.  
I suspect ghosts are tied forever if they fear to go on. Just my two knuts and probably worth less.
Mongwen




From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Sun Jun 23 07:03:46 2013
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 07:03:46 +0000
Subject: DeathEaterDogma!
In-Reply-To: <51C5973E.3040305@moosewise.com>
References: <1371895069.925.12253.m7@yahoogroups.com> <D555D55B-EE68-4255-9AD3-ABC934B13CC6@MacOSX.Com> <51C5973E.3040305@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <B23E792D-A858-46B3-9DF9-67626CAB8C35@MacOSX.Com>

	2013-06-22T12:23:26Z, "Bart Lidofsky" <bart at moosewise.com>:

> 	Bart:

> 	Actually, the Deatheaters are extremely pragmatic; they rely on their "useful idiot" (to use a term garnered from Stalin) followers to be dogmatic.

> 	Walabio:

>> 	The term is usually credited to Lenin, but this is what the senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress has to say about the issue:

>> 	Despite often being attributed to Lenin, in 1987, Grant Harris, senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress, declared that "We have not been able to identify this phrase among [Lenin's] published works."

> 	Bart:

> 	I said "garnered from Stalin", although I should have said "garnered" or "attributed" to Lenin. There are many Russian works (including many by Lenin and Stalin) which have never been published in the U.S. and therefore would not be in the Library of Congress; here, however is a 1987 article by William Safire, one of the world's foremost experts on the English language: http://tinyurl.com/lhlsxsd (this points to a New York Times article). Now, back on topic.

	Walabio?:

	I do not want to start a fight.  I just found it interesting that it is 1 of those quotations which seems to be incorrect or misattributed.  Here is 11 lists of 50 incorrect or misattributed quotations:

	http://youtube.com/user/MentalFlossVideo/videos

	It seems most quotations are incorrect or misattributed.

> 	Walabio:

> 	At any rate, none ever claimed that all DeathEaters believe the Dogma (I always suspected that Lucius Malfoy just wanted power and wealth; while, Wormtail just wanted to stand behind the biggest kid in the playground for protection), but many DeathEaters buy into the dogma: The Dark Lord believes it. The LeStranges in general and the fanatic Beatrix LeStrange in particular believe the dogma whole-heartedly.

> 	Bart:

> 	Morty is a half-blood. Also, as Dumbledore makes eminently clear, he is after nothing but power, and will say and do anything necessary to gain it. Morty, portrayed as a sociopath/psychopath, lacks the ability to think of other people as people; he sees them as objects to be manipulated to get whatever results he desires.

	Walabio?:

	Certainly, the Dark Lord wants power and is a sadist enjoying torturing and killing others, but he has a genuine hatred a muggles,and muggleborns.  Being an halfblooded, he hates his mugglefather (he killed his father and paternal grandparents).  He happened to resemble his father, who, by all accounts, was handsome, so he transfigured himself not to look like his father, even though he made himself ugly in the process.

> 	Bart:

>>> 	On the other hand, the opponents of the Deatheaters are collectivists, willing to subvert their individual needs for the, if you will, "greater good". This is important; note that the trio managed to get through several key crises because Voldemort's forces got selfish, putting their own desires over service to their cause.

> 	Walabio:

>> 	I believe that you might confuse political communism with unit cohesion:

>> 	Militaryunits have to act in a coordinated way to be effective.  The order of the Ph??nix does not have an overarching economic policy.

> 	Bart:

> 	I said "collectivist", and I meant "collectivist", not "communist". Also note that even the members of the goon squads were far more interested in who got the credit than in getting the job done.

	Walabio?:

	Thanks for clarifying that.


	Walabio



From bpmull at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 24 06:21:41 2013
From: bpmull at yahoo.com (Bruce Mull)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 23:21:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HP Ghosts
Message-ID: <1372054901.49566.YahooMailNeo@web140801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192477

Bruce:
You had many good questions. THe only one I feel somewhat confident in answering is this:
?
> Liz:?
> The other thought I had was how Sir Nick could be blown out of the
> way when he was petrified. Are ghosts affected by wind?

Bruce:
?When Sir Nick was petrified it would have "thickened" his ectoplasmic body. This would have made it possible to blow him around in the wind. At least this is MHO.

Dr Bruce P. Mull
Professor of Computer Science
Professor of Mathematics



From oriondruid at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 10:43:42 2013
From: oriondruid at gmail.com (oriondruid@btinternet.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:43:42 -0000
Subject: HP Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <1372054901.49566.YahooMailNeo@web140801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <kqjpcu+4bvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 192478


> 
> Bruce:
> ?When Sir Nick was petrified it would have "thickened" his ectoplasmic body. This would have made it possible to blow him around in the wind. At least this is MHO.
> 
> Dr Bruce P. Mull
> Professor of Computer Science
> Professor of Mathematics
>

Hi All.
This is so frustrating, I just typed a long reply post to this thread regarding ghosts and the damn thing simply 'evaporated' into cyberspace for no obvious reason, just disappeared off my screen beyond any recovery. Vanished, just like a ghost.;o)

Anyway, briefly to restart, regarding Sir Nicolas and his 'accident'. The physics of what Bruce suggested above is dependent upon petrifaction having given his ghost some small degree of physical mass, in order to permit interaction with environmental factors such as are found in a drafty castle. :o)

Maybe CERN are looking for the Higgs Boson and the like in the wrong way, with the wrong equipment. Rather than using huge circular energy guzzling particle accelerators to find mass creating particles what they really need is a Basilisk, or perhaps a well made wand, (personally I'd recommend an Ollivander 10 and a half inch holly one, with a dragon heartstring core), to try and recreate these 'God Particles'. ;o)

Anyway, I'm so angry with this damn piece of muggle technogolgy I'm typing on for eating all I wrote I can't be bothered to re-type all the rest regarding ghosts, but more briefly here's the gist of what I said. For further details about certain quoted 'ghostly' instances and places mentioned try good old Google. :o)

I classify the phenomena known as 'ghosts' into three main types. None of which exactly fit the descriptions of 'Hogwarts Ghosts' but they do have aspects of at least two of the categories. I might add I have not ever witnessed such a thing myself or personally 'believe' in ghosts as being spirits of the dead, but many reliable witnesses have experienced all the phenomena below and I most certainly would not assume they are all liars.

Main Ghostly Categories...

Type 1: Vague, loosely defined glowing figures like semi humanoid 'plasma clouds' that simply drift about and do not interact with their environment at all, even passing through solid object like walls etc. If these are in any way actual 'spirits' of the dead is unproven. Quite commonly seen

Type 2: Repeated sightings of more clearly seen people/objects, like 'ghostly coaches' and the famous figure of a Roman Legion Auxiliary in a York cellar, so clearly defined that when he and his horse are seen his uniform and possessions visible have actually allowed his unit to be identified. Fairly commonly seen this type, often repeatedly in the same place by several different witnesses at different times. Possible explanations for which include temporal anomalies and the 'stone tape' type 'recording' theory. This being that objects/places etc can actually store 'visions' of past events by some unknown mechanism and in certain circumstances these get 'replayed' and witnessed.


Type 3: The most fascinating and compelling of all. Apparently real people, like the famous Bluebell Hill Hitchhiker, 'ghosts' that are apparently indistinguishable from living people, who interact with their surroundings like flesh and blood and can converse intelligently. 'Rare as hens teeth' this kind of phenomena, but certainly the most fascinating because, it seems,they really are the spirits of dead people and again are often seen repeatedly in the same place on more than one occasion. The above example being one such type and an intriguing one. 

Many motorists have reported various types of interactions with this ghost whilst driving up and down the large and beautiful Bluebell Hill in Kent, SE England. Some have believed they knocked down a hitchiker with their car and reported this to the police, but no body was ever found and no casualty ever turned up in local hospitals. Others have stopped and spoken to a 'hitchhiker' on the famous Kentish hill and in at least one case given a young girl hitcher a lift, along with her large backpack. Because of the size of her rucksack she sat in the rear of the car as they drove up the long hill and she chatted happily with the driver, but at the top when he looked in his mirror she was gone, vanished from the car although he had never stopped it. Others have also reported similar encounters on the hill, but with a male figure.

The fictional Hogwarts ghosts however are not exactly 'any of the above', but more like the last category than any of the others. That they are conscious entities and spirits of the dead is certain. One can converse with then and interrogate their memories of their former lives. They have a definite personality and the living can even to some extent become their friends and vice versa, such as in the case of Sir Nicholas who, like Casper is a 'friendly ghost'. :o)

However, unlike the famous Kentish ghost above, whilst the Hogwarts Ghosts may well have form and defined detail they've no physical substance, and like my 'category 1 type' above can walk though solid objects like walls etc. However, as we know, they can be affected by magic, for instance be petrified in the same way as living people. Indeed, one thing I am unclear about is how they 'un-petrified' Sir Nicholas, as getting him to swallow the required mandrake potion would be more than a little tricky. ;o)

My favourite Hogwarts Ghost, apart from Sir Nicholas, is that of Helena Ravenclaw, as portrayed in the final movie. I felt sorry for this beautiful young woman and her tragic past, since by helping Harry she played a major role in the defeat of Lord Voldemort. In a way she too was a heroine of The Battle of Hogwarts.

As a result I felt moved to give her a better future than the tragic lonely and withdrawn existence she was leading and in my fan fiction story The Ghost and the Machine I managed to devise a way for her to make use of the considerable intellect she'd inherited from her mother and gain useful employment at the school after the war. Because of her love of books she became the Assistant Librarian at the rebuilt school, and only the second Hogwarts Ghost to gain useful employment there working in a 'proper job'. :o)

One final thing, as we all know Peeves is, of course, not a 'ghost'. He is defined as a poltergeist' a not really evil but slightly malignant, or at least mischievious 'spirit being' who never led a mortal life. An interesting idea but most researchers into such esoteric matters tend to put poltergeist activity down to the unconscious usage of Psi powers by people around whom such 'disturbances' are happening, or being due to unknown physical phenomena like gravitational disturbances, not non-human spirits at play.

Best be off now, before this post vanishes into the unknown too, my computer is being a git today. :o(
Many Blessings.
John.










From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 01:49:36 2013
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 01:49:36 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Twenty Two, Goblet of Fire: The Unexpected Task
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No: HPFGUIDX 192479

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This chapter is a joint venture, credit also goes to Geoff, Ceridwen and Sherry, thanks for the help with the questions guys .

Chapter 22. The Unexpected Task.

During the transfiguration lesson McGonagall announces that Yule ball is
approaching and that it is a regular part of the TriWizard Tournament. She also
specifically tells Harry that Champions and their partners open the Ball. Harry
is now worried about choosing a partner. In fact "choosing whom to invite to the
ball" frenzy starts all over Hogwarts. Harry wants to invite Cho, but cannot
work up his courage and when he does, it is too late - she is already going with
Cedric. Ron finally invites Fleur, but she refuses. When Ron gets the bright
idea to invite Hermione, she tells him that she is going with someone else as
well. Eventually Harry and Ron end up with Padma and Parvati as their partners
and Hermione is going with the mystery partner.


Questions:

1. "Hermione, Neville's right - you are a girl...
"Oh, well spotted," she said accidly"
So do you think this was indeed the moment when Ron starts noticing Hermione as
somebody more than a friend, if not, when did you think it start?"


2. Neville for all his timidness, apparently invited Hermione before Ron and
Harry worked up a courage to invite the girls they wanted to go with. Did this
signify Neville's courage coming into spotlight or something else? Anything?


3. "She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something.  Didn't even answer".
If Ron's recollection is true to what happened, I thought Fleur could have been
nicer to him, even though of course as an older girl to hear fourteen year old
invite her may have felt as beneath her. What did you think?

4. Bearing in mind that Harry had been effectively dragged into the Tournament
without his knowledge or approval, do you think that Professor McGonagall
treated him harshly in overruling him and insisting that he have a partner
despite his insistence that he did not dance, bearing in mind that the dance,
in Harry's perception was a waste of time against the threst to him from
Voldemort?

5. What do you think of the boys' approaches to potential ball partners? Do
you think that Ron's rather flippant views about the Ball created problems
for Harry?

6. Do you think that Hermione's comment that people only liked Krum because
he was famous might also be applicable to Harry ? If so, why had only a
handful of girls ? mainly from junior forms ? made any sort of move in his
direction?

7. Harry was very suspicious of Rita Skeeter's interview with Hagrid. What did
you feel about her motives and possible article when Hagrid described it to
them?

8. It seems strange that, in the past, when younger people were allowed to enter,
they would have been expected to have a date and to lead off a ball. What does
this tell us about the Wizarding World historically? Would the younger
contestants have been considered closer to marriageable age than younger witches
and wizards today? Would they have had marriage arrangements and so not have
had the difficulty of asking someone for a date? Has the Wizarding World changed
much since then, as far as dating is concerned?

9. Please insert your own question here.

Alika