From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 6 17:01:33 2013 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Oct 2013 17:01:33 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/6/2013, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1381078893.12.49842.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192541 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday October 6, 2013 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (GMT-06.00) Central Time (US & Canada) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2013 Yahoo Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 00:28:52 2013 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (corey) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 19:28:52 -0500 Subject: Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192542 Hey, I'm just wondering if any one has a favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. I thought the cave was interesting or the Quidditch stuff where Harry was getting his new Quidditch team together. Corey From andy.mills at btinternet.com Thu Oct 10 11:04:23 2013 From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:04:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192543 On 10/10/2013 01:28, corey wrote: > Hey, I'm just wondering if any one has a favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. I thought the cave was interesting or the Quidditch stuff where Harry was getting his new Quidditch team together. > > Corey Don't know about a favourite chapter, but one of my favourite bits was when Harry was cheaky in Snape's class, when he said there's no need to call me sir after cursing Snape. Still makes me laugh when I hear it. AJM From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 23:30:44 2013 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (corey) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 18:30:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192544 AJM: Don't know about a favourite chapter, but one of my favourite bits was when Harry was cheaky in Snape's class, when he said there's no need to call me sir after cursing Snape. Still makes me laugh when I hear it. Corey: Yeah, that was kind of funny. Have you read all the books? I know Snape turned out to be a good guy at the end of the series but I don't know why Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him. I thought Dumbledore would have wanted to live a lot longer. Corey From bart at moosewise.com Sat Oct 12 00:02:49 2013 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:02:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <525891A9.7080701@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192545 On 10/11/2013 7:30 PM, corey wrote: > I know > Snape turned out to be a good guy at the end of the series but I don't > know why Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him. I thought Dumbledore > would have wanted to live a lot longer. Bart: Two reasons: 1) So that Draco wouldn't. 2) So that Snape would become the master of the Elder Wand. Bart From bart at moosewise.com Sat Oct 12 00:06:12 2013 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:06:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <52589274.6000003@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192546 Bart: My favorite part of the Half Blood Prince was as Snape was fleeing from Hogwarts. That scene was one of the ones that convinced me that Snape was still carrying out Dumbledore's plan (and I mentioned this in this group, a number of times, before DH came out). The thing is that, even as he was fleeing, he spent his last few seconds at Hogwarts still trying to teach Harry the skills that he needed, in still the same, nasty teaching style that he always used. Bart From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 12 05:41:47 2013 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (corey) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 00:41:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: <52589274.6000003@moosewise.com> References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> <52589274.6000003@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192547 > Bart: My favorite part of the Half Blood Prince was as Snape was fleeing from Hogwarts. That scene was one of the ones that convinced me that Snape was still carrying out Dumbledore's plan (and I mentioned this in this group, a number of times, before DH came out). The thing is that, even as he was fleeing, he spent his last few seconds at Hogwarts still trying to teach Harry the skills that he needed, in still the same, nasty teaching style that he always used. > Corey: Oh okay, did Dumbledore have Snape kill him cause he knew the curse on the ring would kill him soon? It would have been kind of neat if we knew what curse was on the ring. From liz.treky at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 12 08:35:58 2013 From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (liz.treky at ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 09:35:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> <52589274.6000003@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192548 Corey: Oh okay, did Dumbledore have Snape kill him cause he knew the curse on the ring would kill him soon? It would have been kind of neat if we knew what curse was on the ring. Liz: Dumbledore was dying during HBP book. He had obtained and worn the ring sometime during the summer or first term (can't remember which!) and Snape had managed to stop the curse temporarily. Dumbledore had a year to live at most. When Dumbledore learnt of the task Draco had been set, to kill Dumbledore, he had arranged with Snape to kill him instead. This was to protect Draco from killing, and the damage that did to a young mind. And more importantly to prevent the Elder wand from having a new master. An arranged death would mean Dumbledore wasn't defeated, the Elder wand would remain loyal to Dumbledore and it's true power would never again be able to be used. Sadly, Draco disarmed Dumbledore before Snape killed him, so the plan failed, as Draco defeated Dumbledore by disarming him. From bart at moosewise.com Sat Oct 12 14:22:07 2013 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 10:22:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> <52589274.6000003@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <52595B0F.6050008@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192549 On 10/12/2013 1:41 AM, corey wrote: > Oh okay, did Dumbledore have Snape kill him cause he knew the curse > on the ring would kill him soon? It would have been kind of neat if > we knew what curse was on the ring. Yes. The curse on the ring was causing Dumbledore to waste away; Snape was able to slow it down, but not to stop it. Dumbledore did not have long for this world, and he wanted to ensure that the Elder Wand be properly protected. Bart From lilandriss at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 14:27:52 2013 From: lilandriss at yahoo.com (Alanna) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 08:27:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: <52595B0F.6050008@moosewise.com> References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> <52589274.6000003@moosewise.com> <52595B0F.6050008@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <7FDC56CE-13C5-4E60-84B7-9D438DD8FCD8@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192550 > On 10/12/2013 1:41 AM, corey wrote: > > Oh okay, did Dumbledore have Snape kill him cause he knew the curse > > on the ring would kill him soon? It would have been kind of neat if > > we knew what curse was on the ring. > Bart: > Yes. The curse on the ring was causing Dumbledore to waste away; > Snape was able to slow it down, but not to stop it. Dumbledore did > not have long for this world, and he wanted to ensure that the Elder > Wand be properly protected. Alanna: I always wondered about the dying from the cursed ring thing. Why couldn't Fawkes heal him? I just finished re reading the series and I don't recall Fawkes even being brought up and/or rejected as an option. From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 12 23:56:47 2013 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (corey) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 18:56:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: <7FDC56CE-13C5-4E60-84B7-9D438DD8FCD8@yahoo.com> References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> <52589274.6000003@moosewise.com> <52595B0F.6050008@moosewise.com> <7FDC56CE-13C5-4E60-84B7-9D438DD8FCD8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192551 > Alanna: > I always wondered about the dying from the cursed ring thing. Why > couldn't Fawkes heal him? I just finished re reading the series and > I don't recall Fawkes even being brought up and/or rejected as an > option. Corey: Yeah Alanna, you bring up a good point, but maybe the curse was too strong to have Fawkes heal it. I guess we'll never know. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 13 17:01:19 2013 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 13 Oct 2013 17:01:19 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/13/2013, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1381683679.10.48241.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192552 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday October 13, 2013 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (GMT-06.00) Central Time (US & Canada) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2013 Yahoo Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 17 19:14:56 2013 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 19:14:56 -0000 Subject: Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192553 Geoff: Just a few notes to enlarge on some of the thoughts recently expressed. Liz: > Dumbledore was dying during the HBP book. He had obtained and worn > the ring sometime during the summer or first term (can't remember > which!) and Snape had managed to stop the curse temporarily. Geoff: Just for clarification, it was certainly before the new term and thus possibly during the school holidays. Looking at canon, Dumbledore wrote to Harry: `If it is convenient to you, I shall call at number four Privet Drive this coming Friday at eleven p.m. to escort you to The Burrow, where you have been invited to spend the remainder of your school holidays.' (HBP "Will and Won't" p.46 UK edition) and later: `As he replaced his wand in his pocket, Harry saw that his hand was blackened and shrivelled; it looked as if his flesh had been burned away. "Sir- what happened to your- ?" "Later, Harry," said Dumbledore.' (ibid.p.50) Liz: > Dumbledore had a year to live at most. When Dumbledore learnt of the > task Draco had been set, to kill Dumbledore, he had arranged with Snape > to kill him instead. This was to protect Draco from killing, and the damage > that did to a young mind. And more importantly to prevent the Elder wand > from having a new master. An arranged death would mean Dumbledore > wasn't defeated, the Elder wand would remain loyal to Dumbledore and it's > true power would never again be able to be used. Sadly, Draco disarmed > Dumbledore before Snape killed him, so the plan failed, as Draco defeated > Dumbledore by disarming him. Geoff: Following Liz's train of thought, Dumbledore didn't quite "arrange"; he forced Snape to agree to kill him ? by applying a little arm-twisting in the shape of an Unbreakable Vow. This was to protect Draco who, if he had managed to kill Dumbledore would have had his soul split but also to ensure that the wand would remain faithful to him as he had willingly allowed Snape to win. As we ultimately saw, this plan failed but in the long run, it worked to Harry's favour because Draco became master of the wand and then Harry, after he disarmed the former at Malfoy Manor. Voldemort worked on the wrong presumption and although it cost Snape his life, Voldemort did not become aware of the danger to himself until the very last moments of the duel in the Great Hall, his hubris leading him to think that he could not be beaten. Alanna: > I always wondered about the dying from the cursed ring thing. Why > couldn't Fawkes heal him? I just finished re reading the series and I > don't recall Fawkes even being brought up and/or rejected as an option. Geoff: It was never suggested that Fawkes could heal everything. Dumbledore's comment about phoenix powers was: "Fascinating creatures, phoenixes. They can carry immensely heavy loads, their tears have healing powers and they make highly faithful pets" (COS "The Polyjuice Potion" p.155 UK edition). From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Oct 18 17:37:05 2013 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: 18 Oct 2013 10:37:05 -0700 Subject: Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192554 Geoff: Following Liz's train of thought, Dumbledore didn't quite "arrange"; he forced Snape to agree to kill him ? by applying a little arm-twisting in the shape of an Unbreakable Vow. This was to protect Draco who, if he had managed to kill Dumbledore would have had his soul split but also to ensure that the wand would remain faithful to him as he had willingly allowed Snape to win. Pippin: Dumbledore did not force or arrange the Unbreakable Vow -- barring some unlikely conspiracy with Narcissa and Bella. Dumbledore's methods of persuasion were more subtle, as revealed in The Prince's Tale. He first asked for Snape's word that he would do all in his power to protect the students of Hogwarts, should the school fall into Voldemort's grasp. Snape readily agreed. But then Dumbledore revealed the consequences. It followed that Snape must do all in his power to protect Draco, who was already in Voldemort's grasp. Snape must also do everything he can to protect any accidental victims of Draco's schemes, and finally, Snape himself must agree to kill Dumbledore, first, to protect Draco from the damage done by murder, and secondly, to spare Dumbledore the pain and humiliation that someone like Greyback or Bellatrix would inflict on him. Dumbledore does not claim that Snape owes him so much that he ought to be willing to damage his soul for Dumbledore's sake, although some readers have read that into the encounter. Instead he says Snape alone can judge whether the favor of sparing a man on the brink of death from pain and humiliation would damage Snape's soul. Snape, IMO, is trapped by his own determination to keep his word, and his need to follow the most rational course of action. At any rate, by the time Snape is confronted with Narcissa's request that he make an unbreakable vow to "carry out the deed the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform" Snape has already agreed to do it as a favor to Dumbledore. We know that the meeting with Narcissa and Bella takes place after Snape's agreement with Dumbledore, because Snape tells them that Dumbledore has recently damaged his hand. As to whether Fawkes could have helped Dumbledore, I don't think so. Fawkes's tears cure wounds given by magical beasts, such as the basilisk and the acromantula. But he does not even attempt to heal the stab wound in Harry's arm given by Peter Pettigrew. Clearly his powers are limited, and there is no suggestion anywhere that Fawkes could heal damage caused by a curse. Even over the wounds of magical beasts there may be a limit to what he can do. Arthur was loyal to Dumbledore if anyone was; surely Fawkes would have helped him if he could. But Arthur is in St Mungo's for weeks after Nagini bites him. But it might be that Fawkes was able to help Arthur somewhat, and this is the reason that Arthur survived until other help could reach him, while Snape died so quickly. Pippin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iam.kemper at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 19:38:55 2013 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (iam.kemper at gmail.com) Date: 19 Oct 2013 12:38:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: <525891A9.7080701@moosewise.com> References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> <525891A9.7080701@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192555 corey wrote: > I know > Snape turned out to be a good guy at the end of the series but I don't > know why Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him. I thought Dumbledore > would have wanted to live a lot longer. Bart wrote: Two reasons: 1) So that Draco wouldn't. 2) So that Snape would become the master of the Elder Wand. Kemper: My impression is that Snape would not become the master because there was an agreement between he and Dumbledore. The agreement essentially being 'I give permission for Snape to euthanize me.' That way Dumbledore would die the master of the Elder Wand and thus the wand could no longer have a master and act like just any ordinary wand like it did with Voldemort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 20 17:01:21 2013 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 20 Oct 2013 17:01:21 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/20/2013, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1382288481.34.856.m5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192556 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday October 20, 2013 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (GMT-06.00) Central Time (US & Canada) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2013 Yahoo Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 11:41:59 2013 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (corey) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 06:41:59 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about the Deathly Hallows book. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192557 Hey, just was reading the Deathly Hallows book. I thought about some stuff that was in the book. Like the Dursleys having to leave. I was just thinking it's kind of like having protection from the mob. Corey From CatMcNulty at comcast.net Mon Oct 21 17:58:45 2013 From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (CatMcNulty at comcast.net) Date: 21 Oct 2013 10:58:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: References: <525689B7.1080504@btinternet.com> <525891A9.7080701@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192558 > Corey wrote: > I know Snape turned out to be a good guy at the end of the series > but I don't know why Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him. > Bart wrote: > Two reasons: > 1) So that Draco wouldn't. > 2) So that Snape would become the master of the Elder Wand. > Kemper: > My impression is that Snape would not become the master because there was an agreement between he and Dumbledore. The agreement essentially being 'I give permission for Snape to euthanize me.' That way Dumbledore would die the master of the Elder Wand and thus the wand could no longer have a master and act like just any ordinary wand like it did with Voldemort. Cat: Kemper I share your impression. Snape never "conquered" the wand's master, he only did Dumbledore's (the elder wand's master) bidding. It is often quoted that, "You can't take it with you." Well, in this case, that is (IMHO) precisely what Dumbledore intended. Dumbledore wanted to take the wand "out of circulation" and thus preventing the chaos and death that would result if its actual existence was confirmed. .... And return the wand to Death. To Reiterate: 1. Yes, he wanted to protect Draco's soul. 2. He already protected Snape's soul (from the consequences of Dumbledore's death) by requesting that he (Snape) kill him (Dumbledore) when "the time was right". Cat >^-.-^< (Back to lurking again) From cresorchid at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 01:22:48 2013 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:22:48 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192559 > Kemper: > My impression is that Snape would not become the master because there was an agreement between he and Dumbledore. The agreement essentially being 'I give permission for Snape to euthanize me.' That way Dumbledore would die the master of the Elder Wand and thus the wand could no longer have a master and act like just any ordinary wand like it did with Voldemort. Cat: Kemper I share your impression. Snape never "conquered" the wand's master, he only did Dumbledore's (the elder wand's master) bidding. It is often quoted that, "You can't take it with you." Well, in this case, that is (IMHO) precisely what Dumbledore intended. Dumbledore wanted to take the wand "out of circulation" and thus preventing the chaos and death that would result if its actual existence was confirmed. .... And return the wand to Death. To Reiterate: 1. Yes, he wanted to protect Draco's soul. 2. He already protected Snape's soul (from the consequences of Dumbledore's death) by requesting that he (Snape) kill him (Dumbledore) when "the time was right". Cat >^-.-^< Crescent: The book never really made it clear whether Dumbledore expected Snape to become the master of the Elder Wand. However, because of Draco's disarming him, Draco DID become the master of the wand. And, of course, when Harry overcame Draco and took Draco's wand, he then became the master of the Elder Wand. Voldemort was under the impression that Snape was the master of the wand because he killed Dumbledore. And that is why he felt compelled to kill Snape. From CatMcNulty at comcast.net Tue Oct 22 19:36:42 2013 From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (CatMcNulty at comcast.net) Date: 22 Oct 2013 12:36:42 -0700 Subject: Favorite chapter in The Half Blood Prince. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192560 > Crescent: > The book never really made it clear whether Dumbledore expected > Snape to become the master of the Elder Wand. However, because of > Draco's disarming him, Draco DID become the master of the wand. > And, of course, when Harry overcame Draco and took Draco's wand, > he then became the master of the Elder Wand. Voldemort was under > the impression that Snape was the master of the wand because he > killed Dumbledore. And that is why he felt compelled to kill Snape. Cat: De-Lurking Cresent, that is the beauty of JKR's style, she plants tiny clues in such a casual manner the reader oft times dismisses or overlooks them until the second or third reading. She wants her readers to THINK! From my reading (and interpretation). FIRST: It was NOT apparent that Dumbledore had the elder wand until later. A description of Dumbledore's wand was pretty much ignored. SECOND: In hindsight, I do NOT believe that Dumbledore wanted Snape to become the master of the elder wand because, by his own admission, the lure of power was very great and he was not at all confident that Snape could or would resist. Therefore, he removed the possibility of the wand's alliance being transfered to Snape, by Dumbledore requesting that Snape kill him. By making that request it meant that Dumbledore was NOT "defeated" by Snape, Snape was just doing as Dumbledore had requested. THIRD: Yes, by disarming Dumbledore, Draco DID inadvertantly and unbeknownest to him become the Elder Wand's master. FOURTH: Word usage and interpretation is a VERY important tool.Voldemort interpretated "conquered" as "killed", he believed that the elder wand's master had to be "killed" in order for the alliegence to be transferred. In Voldemort's thinking: Snape killed Dumbledore therefore Snape was now the masterof the elder wand. In actuality (as we learn later) Dumbledore was "conquered" or "defeated" when he was disarmed by Draco. FIFTH: Voldemort should have known that killing the previous master of the wand was unnecessary because Dumbledore had not killed Grindewald but had "defeated" him in 1945 (like it says on the Chocolate Frog card that Harry got on the way to Hogwarts the first time) :-) JKR's style is phenomenal! I learn something new everytime I re-read her work! Cat >^-.-^< From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 22 21:31:41 2013 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: 22 Oct 2013 14:31:41 -0700 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192561 Crescent: The book never really made it clear whether Dumbledore expected Snape to become the master of the Elder Wand. However, because of Draco's disarming him, Draco DID become the master of the wand. And, of course, when Harry overcame Draco and took Draco's wand, he then became the master of the Elder Wand. Pippin: IIRC, JKR explained in an interview that Dumbledore meant to die undefeated so that the wand would be unable to take another master. In any case, Dumbledore had no way of testing that theory in advance, so it would make sense for him to leave the wand in the hands of someone who was both averse to killing and capable of concealing things from Voldemort. Dumbledore also had to make sure he was not defeated by Voldemort or his allies, so he had another reason, besides avoiding pain and humiliation, to make sure that he died before the ring curse could kill him, or before he fell into the hands of Fenrir or Bellatrix. Crescent: Voldemort was under the impression that Snape was the master of the wand because he killed Dumbledore. And that is why he felt compelled to kill Snape. Pippin: I would put it the other way around. Voldemort's compulsion to kill gave him the impression that killing Snape was the only way to become master of the wand. If Voldemort had been thinking more clearly, he might have remembered what he certainly knew: that both Gregorovitch and Grindelwald had lost control of the wand long before dying. Harry and Dumbledore make similar errors when they are misled by their compulsions. Harry will rush to the rescue when he ought to have known it wasn't necessary, and despite his passionate advocacy of choice and informing people about the dangers they are facing, Dumbledore persuades himself to keep secrets even from those who have proven trustworthy and have an obvious need to know. Pippin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 27 17:01:37 2013 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 Oct 2013 17:01:37 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/27/2013, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1382893297.64.25288.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192562 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday October 27, 2013 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (GMT-06.00) Central Time (US & Canada) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2013 Yahoo Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: