From danjerri at madisoncounty.net Sun Nov 2 17:40:42 2014 From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (danjerri at madisoncounty.net) Date: 02 Nov 2014 09:40:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 26 October 2014 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192705 I can't find a simple way to do it. Apparently it depends on which web browser you you (Explorer, Chrome, Firefox, etc.) Each has a slightly different process. Sorry I couldn't help more. Jerri Corey: I?ll try that, thanks for the help! Do you know an easy keystroke to turn java script on and off? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 2 18:01:35 2014 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 Nov 2014 18:01:35 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 02 November 2014 Message-ID: <1414951295.12.41302.m17@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192706 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 02 November 2014 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 9 18:01:52 2014 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 Nov 2014 18:01:52 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 09 November 2014 Message-ID: <1415556112.10.13954.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192707 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 09 November 2014 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API. From kennyg1864 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 23:06:40 2014 From: kennyg1864 at yahoo.com (kennyg1864 at yahoo.com) Date: 10 Nov 2014 15:06:40 -0800 Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192708 1. I've always been bothered by the ease with which SB was sentenced to life in prison amongst the Dementors. I don't have my copy of PoA handy, but IIRC he was convicted based on "all that was left of Peter Pettigrew was a finger", and "several dead Muggles". And that's the total sum of the evidence. - No witnesses - No trial - No body (although that's probably less critical in WW than in Muggle world, if you can vanish a body) Plus SB knew that PP could transform into a rat. I know it's critical to the plot of the story, but it doesn't fit with the WW notion of justice. Not even a chance to appear before the Council on Magical Law. - Barty Jr, Rodolphus, and Bellatrix did appear, and had known allegiances to Voldemort - SB did not appear, and had no past transgressions (other than motorcycle speeding) I suppose Fudge could have been spooked by the recent death of the Potters, and maybe pressured by the WW to "find the culprit quickly", as Muggle mayors are. But to convict a wizard with no criminal history, and no chance to speak in his own defense...just seems so wrong. 2. Even if SB didn't know that PP was in hiding for 12 years, did he suspect that PP had transformed at the murder scene, and framed him? SB knew that *he* was innocent, so did he think all along that PP was the most likely suspect, even before he saw the newspaper? Thoughts? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sherriola at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 00:34:31 2014 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 17:34:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192709 I'm sorry, I can't give the original poster attribution, as the name isn't showing up in the email headers, and there's no signature. But I loved the post, and I have some thoughts. You wrote: 1. I've always been bothered by the ease with which SB was sentenced to life in prison amongst the Dementors. I don't have my copy of PoA handy, but IIRC he was convicted based on "all that was left of Peter Pettigrew was a finger", and "several dead Muggles". And that's the total sum of the evidence. Sherry now: I would add also to the evidence, that Dumbledore *assumed* Sirius was the secret Keeper and presumably he told the then minister of magic and the head of magical law enforcement so. In POA Sirius's imprisonment could have seemed logical or understandable, except for my outrage over anyone not receiving a fair trial and the right to defend himself. But by the end of the series, I found the fate of Sirius to be an even greater travesty. By then, we knew about the spell to check the last spells performed by a wand. We knew about Truth serum, and we knew about legilimency. A combination of these things would surely have proven his innocence. As you say, even the LeStranges and other known Death Eaters were given trials. It's never outright said in canon, but Sirius being a traitor was awfully convenient for Dumbledore, because if he'd been free, I can't see him agreeing to let Harry live with the Dursleys, and there would have been nothing Dumbledore could have done. Why weren't all these options performed to prove once and for all the truth about Sirius? And in a way, how frightening that the unsubstantiated word of one man, Dumbledore, could hold so much sway that nobody even thinks to say, "well, that's all fine and well, but we should at least go through the motions, so nobody can come back later and try to say we didn't give him a fair trial." Truly, I don't hate Dumbledore, but my opinion of his goodness changed a lot over the course of the series, and the experience of Sirius was a large part of that. Sherry From bart at moosewise.com Tue Nov 11 01:28:49 2014 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 20:28:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> References: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54616651.6000603@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192710 On 11/10/2014 7:34 PM, 'Sherry Gomes' sherriola at gmail.com [HPforGrownups] wrote: > I would add also to the evidence, that Dumbledore *assumed* Sirius was the secret Keeper and presumably he told the then minister of magic and the head of magical law enforcement so. > Bart: I'm going to have to re-read POA, but it was my impression that Sirius never said he wasn't guilty, and in fact did feel that it was his fault the Potters died. He offered no resistance to going to Azkaban, and didn't ask for a trial. Bart From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 11 17:20:34 2014 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: 11 Nov 2014 09:20:34 -0800 Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192711 Kennyg1864: 1. I've always been bothered by the ease with which SB was sentenced to life in prison amongst the Dementors. I don't have my copy of PoA handy, but IIRC he was convicted based on "all that was left of Peter Pettigrew was a finger", and "several dead Muggles". And that's the total sum of the evidence. - No witnesses Pippin: There was indeed a whole street full of witnesses, Muggles whose memories were wiped afterward. They saw Peter, heard him shout, "Lily and James, Sirius, how could you?" and then vanish as the street exploded. We don't know whether Sirius tried to kill Peter (he certainly meant to) in which case the witnesses might have seen a flash coming from Sirius's wand. But the upshot was twelve gruesomely murdered dead Muggles, apparently killed by a single spell in broad daylight, in what appeared to be a pointless and brutal act of revenge. It was that crime which got Sirius arrested, and for which, of course, he showed no remorse. Dumbledore says he gave evidence that Sirius had been the secret-keeper, so there must have been some sort of investigation, though it never resulted in a trial. What sort of evidence that was, we don't know, but Dumbledore felt that Sirius had betrayed his friends and belonged in Azkaban if anyone did. I suspect the point of gathering evidence was not to discover whether Sirius was guilty but to find out whether he had acted alone. Dumbledore may have been concerned to protect Lupin and others by showing that Sirius alone was responsible for the Potter's betrayal. Sirius would not have told Dumbledore about the secret-keeper switch, since the point was to fool Lupin (whom Sirius thought was the spy) and Dumbledore trusted Lupin. Since Dumbledore had access to the Potters, he could have been told the secret in such a way that he thought the information came from Sirius. It is easy to imagine how that could have been done -- a note apparently in Sirius's handwriting, for example. Kennyg1864: - No trial - No body (although that's probably less critical in WW than in Muggle world, if you can vanish a body) Plus SB knew that PP could transform into a rat. I know it's critical to the plot of the story, but it doesn't fit with the WW notion of justice. Pippin: Notions of justice and drawing conclusions based on best evidence can fly out the window when people feel threatened by something outside their experience -- consider the Ebola scare. It isn't that people stop believing in evidence, it's that the evidence which confirms their fears seems more convincing. They just want the perceived danger moved as far away as possible. So, as Sirius says, plenty of people thought that Crouch was doing the right thing by putting Sirius (and many other wizards) away without a trial. No one knew that Peter was an animagus, or would have suspected him of being able to kill twelve people with one spell. Few wizards have such powers, and Peter was considered barely competent. Kennyg1864: Not even a chance to appear before the Council on Magical Law. - Barty Jr, Rodolphus, and Bellatrix did appear, and had known allegiances to Voldemort - SB did not appear, and had no past transgressions (other than motorcycle speeding) Pippin: On the contrary, Sirius had a long, long history of delinquency -- including the near murder of Severus Snape. Even Harry was disgusted once he realized the scope of Sirius's activities. Such a history was enough to send Hagrid to Azkaban in CoS as a precaution, also without trial, though he was even younger than Sirius when his supposed crime took place. Apparently there's no such thing as sealed records in the Wizarding World. Kennyg1864: But to convict a wizard with no criminal history, and no chance to speak in his own defense...just seems so wrong. Pippin: Of course it was wrong, that's JKR's point. But it didn't seem wrong to many people at the time, because fear had skewed their moral compass and they didn't even realize it. 2. Even if SB didn't know that PP was in hiding for 12 years, did he suspect that PP had transformed at the murder scene, and framed him? SB knew that *he* was innocent, so did he think all along that PP was the most likely suspect, even before he saw the newspaper? Pippin: Sirius definitely knew that Peter had set him up. He knew as soon as he saw the Potters' bodies that Peter must have betrayed them. No doubt once he started thinking of Peter as the spy, a lot of other things snapped into place. Sirius says that he'll never understand why he didn't see it was Peter all along. His only thought then was to hunt down Peter and kill him. But then Peter outsmarted him and Sirius didn't think there was anything else he could do. Sirius tells Harry how Peter had done it (with a wand held behind his back), but offers no proof. I agree with those who said that Sirius thought he deserved to be punished for his role in the deaths of Lily and James. It was only when Sirius realized that he had to warn Harry that he was in danger from the rat that he found the will to manage his escape. Pippin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witherwing at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 11 21:40:22 2014 From: witherwing at sbcglobal.net (witherwing at sbcglobal.net) Date: 11 Nov 2014 13:40:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: <54616651.6000603@moosewise.com> References: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> <54616651.6000603@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192712 ---In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote : On 11/10/2014 7:34 PM, 'Sherry Gomes' sherriola at ... mailto:sherriola at ... [HPforGrownups] wrote: > I would add also to the evidence, that Dumbledore *assumed* Sirius was the secret Keeper and presumably he told the then minister of magic and the head of magical law enforcement so. > >Bart: I'm going to have to re-read POA, but it was my impression that Sirius never said he wasn't guilty, and in fact did feel that it was his fault the Potters died. He offered no resistance to going to Azkaban, and didn't ask for a trial. >Bart Witherwing: I agree that it's unbelievably sad, that Sirius wrongly spent all those years in Azkaban, but in my memory of the text, he was so overwhelmed by guilt, having talked James and Lily out of choosing him as their Secret Keeper, that he considered himself deserving of the punishment. Now, who among us is willing to go get PoA and re-read!?!? ~Witherwing -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubhi757 at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 19:45:47 2014 From: hubhi757 at gmail.com (Hilton Hubbard) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 21:45:47 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192713 Yippee - a real, live discussion! This is like having a Time-Turner! Sirius was railroaded all right. He was firmly established as a traitor and murderer by Peter Pettigrew, who then strategically vanished in a cloud of carnage, knowing that he couldn't hope to defeat Sirius in wand-to-wand combat. After that, hysterical laughter seems a reasonable response, since Sirius must have worked out instantly what had actually happened; of course, in the prevailing mood of hysterical suspicion and justifiable fear, it was open to misinterpretation and taken as triumph rather than mixed emotions of shame and survivor guilt. Because, by suspecting Lupin, Sirius had been part of the culture of fear and suspicion; by choosing PP as the secret-keeper rather than either Lupin or Sirius, James and Lily showed that they were also infected by it. And Dumbledore? He believed that Sirius was the secret-keeper, and why not? He was certainly the obvious choice. And he said as much. But, though he didn't have any hard information about the alleged spy in the Order, he had every reason to claim that there was one: this could potentially serve as an explanation for any of Snape's real espionage activities that might otherwise have exposed him. AD and SS would of course have quite literally seen through PP if they'd ever thought of using Legilimency on him; but like everyone else, they despised and ignored him and didn't bother. The fact that AD accepted Sirius's story so readily surely suggests that he had used Legilimency then and been convinced by what he saw. And, the more I think about Sirius and his reaction, the clearer it seems that he believed that Azkaban was where he deserved to be. Of course, as Padfoot he was safe from the Dementors, but not from his own obsessively guilty thoughts - until Fudge's newspaper gave him something worth living for. And then he acted. The whole plot line serves to illustrate how easy it is for people with otherwise high standards of ethics and high expectations of law and its enforcement can shed them in times of crisis. Consider the innocent owners of Dachshund dogs in WWI England, reported as German spies! Consider the responses of the United States (government and people alike) to 9/11, when the rule of law and the restrictions on detention without trial and even torture suddenly seemed irrelevant. All the best Deborah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alcuinyork at ymail.com Fri Nov 14 01:10:53 2014 From: alcuinyork at ymail.com (Alcuin York) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 01:10:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1301248583.381484.1415927453612.JavaMail.yahoo@jws100151.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192714 Deborah: And, the more I think about Sirius and his reaction, the clearer it seems that he believed that Azkaban was where he deserved to be. Of course, as Padfoot he was safe from the Dementors, but not from his own obsessively guilty thoughts - until Fudge's newspaper gave him something worth living for. And then he acted. The whole plot line serves to illustrate how easy it is for people with otherwise high standards of ethics and high expectations of law and its enforcement can shed them in times of crisis. Consider the innocent owners of Dachshund dogs in WWI England, reported as German spies! Consider the responses of the United States (government and people alike) to 9/11, when the rule of law and the restrictions on detention without trial and even torture suddenly seemed irrelevant. Me:Also, remember what Sirius told Harry, Ron, and Hermione in GoF: that Barty Crouch Sr. had him thrown into Azkaban without a trial, because of both Crouch's fanaticism and the climate of paranoia that prevailed at the time.-Chris | Reply via web post | ? | Reply to sender | ? | Reply to group | ? | Start a New Topic | ? | Messages in this topic (1) | Visit Your Group ? Privacy ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 01:30:19 2014 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com) Date: 15 Nov 2014 17:30:19 -0800 Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> References: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192715 Sherry now: I would add also to the evidence, that Dumbledore *assumed* Sirius was the secret Keeper and presumably he told the then minister of magic and the head of magical law enforcement so. In POA Sirius's imprisonment could have seemed logical or understandable, except for my outrage over anyone not receiving a fair trial and the right to defend himself. But by the end of the series, I found the fate of Sirius to be an even greater travesty. By then, we knew about the spell to check the last spells performed by a wand. We knew about Truth serum, and we knew about legilimency. A combination of these things would surely have proven his innocence. As you say, even the LeStranges and other known Death Eaters were given trials. It's never outright said in canon, but Sirius being a traitor was awfully convenient for Dumbledore, because if he'd been free, I can't see him agreeing to let Harry live with the Dursleys, and there would have been nothing Dumbledore could have done. Why weren't all these options performed to prove once and for all the truth about Sirius? And in a way, how frightening that the unsubstantiated word of one man, Dumbledore, could hold so much sway that nobody even thinks to say, "well, that's all fine and well, but we should at least go through the motions, so nobody can come back later and try to say we didn't give him a fair trial." Truly, I don't hate Dumbledore, but my opinion of his goodness changed a lot over the course of the series, and the experience of Sirius was a large part of that. Alla: I do hate Dumbledore, . and as you said Sirius' fate is a big reason why. But even if I assume that Dumbledore did not masterplan for Harry to grow up with Dursleys instead of a loving Godfather so Harry could be a pawn in his hands (and I am almost convinced that he did), I think Dumbledore's unwillingness to investigate goes with his "only I know better and more than anybody else did and I cannot ever be wrong" mindset which shows off quite well later in the series till he decides to admit some secondary wrongs when he talks to Harry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 01:45:15 2014 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com) Date: 15 Nov 2014 17:45:15 -0800 Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192716 Sherry now: I would add also to the evidence, that Dumbledore *assumed* Sirius was the secret Keeper and presumably he told the then minister of magic and the head of magical law enforcement so. In POA Sirius's imprisonment could have seemed logical or understandable, except for my outrage over anyone not receiving a fair trial and the right to defend himself. But by the end of the series, I found the fate of Sirius to be an even greater travesty. By then, we knew about the spell to check the last spells performed by a wand. We knew about Truth serum, and we knew about legilimency. A combination of these things would surely have proven his innocence. As you say, even the LeStranges and other known Death Eaters were given trials. It's never outright said in canon, but Sirius being a traitor was awfully convenient for Dumbledore, because if he'd been free, I can't see him agreeing to let Harry live with the Dursleys, and there would have been nothing Dumbledore could have done. Why weren't all these options performed to prove once and for all the truth about Sirius? And in a way, how frightening that the unsubstantiated word of one man, Dumbledore, could hold so much sway that nobody even thinks to say, "well, that's all fine and well, but we should at least go through the motions, so nobody can come back later and try to say we didn't give him a fair trial." Truly, I don't hate Dumbledore, but my opinion of his goodness changed a lot over the course of the series, and the experience of Sirius was a large part of that. Alla: Eh I had not posted for a long time, so adding the thought. Let's not forget that Dumbledore could not give evidence that Sirius was the secret Keeper, any evidence which he gave was a false evidence because Sirius as we all know was not a Secret Keeper. So what Dumbledore actually did was to give a false testimony. I wonder if WW has a punishment for perjury. And I really need to reread PoA . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 16 06:47:46 2014 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: 15 Nov 2014 22:47:46 -0800 Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192717 Sherry now: I would add also to the evidence, that Dumbledore *assumed* Sirius was the secret Keeper and presumably he told the then minister of magic and the head of magical law enforcement so. In POA Sirius's imprisonment could have seemed logical or understandable, except for my outrage over anyone not receiving a fair trial and the right to defend himself. But by the end of the series, I found the fate of Sirius to be an even greater travesty. By then, we knew about the spell to check the last spells performed by a wand. We knew about Truth serum, and we knew about legilimency. A combination of these things would surely have proven his innocence. Pippin: Unfortunately, when evidence conflicts with established beliefs, people are more inclined to find ways to discount the evidence than to change their beliefs. Fudge, for example, refused to believe that Voldemort had returned, despite the evidence of veritaserum. As far as he was concerned, Barty Jr was delusional. Legilimency would be suspect for the same reasons, plus, how can you be sure that the legilimens himself is not lying? Or deceived by occlumency? One could prove by examining Sirius's wand that he hadn't used the Avada Kedavra spell, but so what? There are other spells, some known only to dark wizardry. I don't doubt that Dumbledore was too ready to believe that Sirius was guilty of betraying the secret and committing the murders, since he already suspected Sirius of being the spy. And he had reasons for not wanting a traitorous Order member put on trial, lest even more of its secrets be revealed in the process. But it was also not unusual for Crouch to deny people trials, and he had enough influence to overrule Dumbledore, especially when popular sentiment was on his side. Sirius was not a well-loved figure like Harry or Ludo Bagman, he had nothing to bargain with, unlike Karkaroff, nor did Crouch himself have something to prove, as he did with Barty Jr. Crouch had long ceased to be interested in justice, if he ever was. He was only interested in putting as many Death Eaters as he could in Azkaban. Alla: Eh I had not posted for a long time, so adding the thought. Let's not forget that Dumbledore could not give evidence that Sirius was the secret Keeper, any evidence which he gave was a false evidence because Sirius as we all know was not a Secret Keeper. So what Dumbledore actually did was to give a false testimony. I wonder if WW has a punishment for perjury. And I really need to reread PoA . Pippin: Welcome back! Perhaps you mean that Dumbledore could not give *proof* that Sirius was the secret-keeper? . Sirius's intention to mislead people into thinking that he was the secret keeper is canon: "I thought it was the perfect plan...a bluff....Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you...."PoA ch 19. "James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were, that Black was planning to go into hiding himself" -Professor McGonnagall, PoA ch 10. That may be the evidence that Dumbledore offered. Now, maybe it never happened, but maybe it was James who lied. He had deceived Dumbledore before. A bluff can't be secret. For Sirius's plan to work, someone had to tell Voldemort that Sirius was the secret-keeper. An obvious person to do that would be the spy, but of course Sirius couldn't be sure who the spy was, so he had mislead everyone in the Order. And according to McGonnagall, James helped. He didn't think there was a spy in the Order, according to Lupin, but there would be no harm done if there wasn't. It would just mean that Voldemort wouldn't hear that Sirius was the secret-keeper and wouldn't go after him. I'm intrigued with the notion that there wasn't a spy at all, that it was Dumbledore's bluff to explain how information passed through Snape was reaching Voldemort. I once argued fiercely for Peter's innocence myself. Snape at that time wouldn't have minded Order members being killed, as long as they weren't Lily. Chess master Dumbledore would have eased his conscience by telling himself it was for the greater good. Trouble is, the Order was losing. Dumbledore would have been behaving, not like a chess master sacrificing his pieces for competitive advantage, but like a compulsive gambler, sacrificing one Order member after another in the useless hope that Snape's next revelation would be the one that turned the tide. It also wouldn't explain this: " [Dumbledore] was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements." -McGonnagall POA ch 10. Snape would never have done that. And if Snape had suspected *Dumbledore* of giving Voldemort information about Lily --well, Dumbledore would have died by Snape's hand a good 16 years earlier, LOL! Can we agree that Sirius *did* allow Harry to go live with the Dursleys, not just once but several times? He didn't like the idea, who would, but he could hardly have been confident in his own ability to protect Harry from Voldemort when he had failed so spectacularly to protect Lily and James. Nor, IMO, would Dumbledore have expected Sirius to object to The Plan. People in the WW grow up playing wizard chess. Far from being horrified by the idea that good leaders must inspire their followers to sacrifice for the greater good, they're indoctrinated with it from childhood. Where Dumbledore went astray with Grindelwald was not in getting people to sacrifice their lives, but in suggesting that they sacrifice their principles. And indeed, the revenant Sirius accompanies Harry in the forest and is proud of what he's about to do. Perhaps this wasn't Sirius returned, but only an apparition conjured by the Stone from the part of Harry that was willing to die. But it doesn't strike Harry as out of character. I haven't been able to re-read PoA in full. It was so unutterably sad knowing that Harry's valor only bought Sirius another two years of life. But it occurs to me that Harry would have thought it was worth it. Pippin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 16 18:01:57 2014 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 16 Nov 2014 18:01:57 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 16 November 2014 Message-ID: <1416160917.23.16951.m9@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192718 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 16 November 2014 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API. From kat7555 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 04:48:15 2014 From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy kulesza) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 04:48:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? Message-ID: <2096042767.725578.1416113295861.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10061.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192719 I hated how Sirius was treated after POA. Dumbledore knew he was innocent yet he did nothing to help him clear his name. When Hagrid was cleared of Moaning Myrtle's death Dumbledore gave him a job and a place to stay at Hogwarts. Sirius lived in the childhood home he hated and he had to visit Harry in secret. I agree with everyone whose opinion of Dumbledore changed after POA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubhi757 at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 14:17:42 2014 From: hubhi757 at gmail.com (Hilton Hubbard) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 16:17:42 +0200 Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192720 I might be channelling the girl who kicked the hornet's nest, but I can't think it would have been better for Harry to have been brought up by Sirius rather than the Dursleys. Sirius is charming, dishy, lovable ... and irresponsible. He acts before he thinks, and if this only brings trouble on his own head, then fine - he's brave and resilient enough to cope. But he shows no signs of having moved on from being the boy who tried to get his enemy killed by using his friend as an unwitting weapon. Yes, he loved Harry. He loved James, James's parents and Lupin. Did he love Lily that much, I wonder? She must have got between Sirius and James, and her moral superiority to Sirius was what helped James to become worthy of her love and, surely, opened something of a rift between them. Remember also the way Sirius shows signs of depression in OP? Not a stable personality. Not what you want in a single parent. Now I'm taking on the Beatles: love is not all you need. The Dursleys showed Harry the absence of love, granted, but they provided a safe environment - inadvertently, but in their home Harry was protected. When did Sirius's parents die - after Harry's birth, presumably. So, imagine Sirius, living with Harry in his old home complete with house-elf heads mounted on the walls, a screeching portrait and bedroom walls covered with Playboy centrespreads. Imagine Sirius, innocently no doubt, using Harry's admiration for his late father to, well, lead him astray frankly! To do things that James would have thought were fun. Would Harry have had anything resembling a 'saving-people thing' after a few years of that? As a teenager he can stand up to Sirius; as a toddler, surely his character would not be undamaged in spite of Lily's sacrifice. Seeing how Dudley turned out as a result of excessive and misguided love, I'm inclined to think that Harry was actually pretty lucky, spiders in the cupboard and all. Deborah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 02:08:34 2014 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com) Date: 16 Nov 2014 18:08:34 -0800 Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192721 ---In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sherry now: I would add also to the evidence, that Dumbledore *assumed* Sirius was the secret Keeper and presumably he told the then minister of magic and the head of magical law enforcement so. In POA Sirius's imprisonment could have seemed logical or understandable, except for my outrage over anyone not receiving a fair trial and the right to defend himself. But by the end of the series, I found the fate of Sirius to be an even greater travesty. By then, we knew about the spell to check the last spells performed by a wand. We knew about Truth serum, and we knew about legilimency. A combination of these things would surely have proven his innocence. Pippin: Unfortunately, when evidence conflicts with established beliefs, people are more inclined to find ways to discount the evidence than to change their beliefs. Fudge, for example, refused to believe that Voldemort had returned, despite the evidence of veritaserum. As far as he was concerned, Barty Jr was delusional. Legilimency would be suspect for the same reasons, plus, how can you be sure that the legilimens himself is not lying? Or deceived by occlumency? One could prove by examining Sirius's wand that he hadn't used the Avada Kedavra spell, but so what? There are other spells, some known only to dark wizardry. Alla: Sorry, but when it took half an hour for Dumbledore to be convinced in Sirius' innocence after that talk in his office (was it half an hour or was it less?), nothing would convince me that it was any kind of hardship for Dumbledore to do a quick sweep and spare half an hour to check whether Sirius was guilty or not. The only thing that in my mind absolves Dumbledore a little is possible sloppiness of his creator - Sirius needed to be in jail for thirteen years for PoA, so hey there is really nothing Dumbledore could have done. Oh wait, it takes half an hour thirteen years later. Here is an idea, how about instead of sending Hagrid Dumbledore goes there himself to take Harry, or maybe cast Legilimency on Sirius? Problem solved. Pippin: I don't doubt that Dumbledore was too ready to believe that Sirius was guilty of betraying the secret and committing the murders, since he already suspected Sirius of being the spy. And he had reasons for not wanting a traitorous Order member put on trial, lest even more of its secrets be revealed in the process. But it was also not unusual for Crouch to deny people trials, and he had enough influence to overrule Dumbledore, especially when popular sentiment was on his side. Sirius was not a well-loved figure like Harry or Ludo Bagman, he had nothing to bargain with, unlike Karkaroff, nor did Crouch himself have something to prove, as he did with Barty Jr. Crouch had long ceased to be interested in justice, if he ever was. He was only interested in putting as many Death Eaters as he could in Azkaban. Alla: Yes, he was ready and willing to believe that, but once again I am not convinced that Dumbledore who was so influential as to be offered the position would not have enough influence as to say, yes, I checked he is innocent and you must believe me. Alla: Eh I had not posted for a long time, so adding the thought. Let's not forget that Dumbledore could not give evidence that Sirius was the secret Keeper, any evidence which he gave was a false evidence because Sirius as we all know was not a Secret Keeper. So what Dumbledore actually did was to give a false testimony. I wonder if WW has a punishment for perjury. And I really need to reread PoA . Pippin: Welcome back! Perhaps you mean that Dumbledore could not give *proof* that Sirius was the secret-keeper? . Sirius's intention to mislead people into thinking that he was the secret keeper is canon: "I thought it was the perfect plan...a bluff....Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you...."PoA ch 19. "James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were, that Black was planning to go into hiding himself" -Professor McGonnagall, PoA ch 10. That may be the evidence that Dumbledore offered. Now, maybe it never happened, but maybe it was James who lied. He had deceived Dumbledore before. A bluff can't be secret. For Sirius's plan to work, someone had to tell Voldemort that Sirius was the secret-keeper. An obvious person to do that would be the spy, but of course Sirius couldn't be sure who the spy was, so he had mislead everyone in the Order. And according to McGonnagall, James helped. He didn't think there was a spy in the Order, according to Lupin, but there would be no harm done if there wasn't. It would just mean that Voldemort wouldn't hear that Sirius was the secret-keeper and wouldn't go after him. Alla: Thanks :). Of course I could not stay away from this topic. No, what I meant is that he could not give a real evidence, only a false one. The fact that what he knew was a bluff does not mean that the bluff becomes a real evidence. If during the course of the trial a lie is offered as evidence, judge and/or jury can be sometimes convinced of that, it however does not become a truth even if deemed as such. Pippin: I'm intrigued with the notion that there wasn't a spy at all, that it was Dumbledore's bluff to explain how information passed through Snape was reaching Voldemort. I once argued fiercely for Peter's innocence myself. Snape at that time wouldn't have minded Order members being killed, as long as they weren't Lily. Chess master Dumbledore would have eased his conscience by telling himself it was for the greater good. Trouble is, the Order was losing. Dumbledore would have been behaving, not like a chess master sacrificing his pieces for competitive advantage, but like a compulsive gambler, sacrificing one Order member after another in the useless hope that Snape's next revelation would be the one that turned the tide. It also wouldn't explain this: " [Dumbledore] was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements." -McGonnagall POA ch 10. Snape would never have done that. And if Snape had suspected *Dumbledore* of giving Voldemort information about Lily --well, Dumbledore would have died by Snape's hand a good 16 years earlier, LOL! Alla: Sorry, whose notion is that? I am not arguing that Peter was not a spy, so I do not quite understand. Pippin: Can we agree that Sirius *did* allow Harry to go live with the Dursleys, not just once but several times? He didn't like the idea, who would, but he could hardly have been confident in his own ability to protect Harry from Voldemort when he had failed so spectacularly to protect Lily and James. Nor, IMO, would Dumbledore have expected Sirius to object to The Plan. People in the WW grow up playing wizard chess. Far from being horrified by the idea that good leaders must inspire their followers to sacrifice for the greater good, they're indoctrinated with it from childhood. Where Dumbledore went astray with Grindelwald was not in getting people to sacrifice their lives, but in suggesting that they sacrifice their principles. Alla: Of course we cannot agree on that! I do not consider being cornered by Hagrid as any kind of real choice. Pippin: And indeed, the revenant Sirius accompanies Harry in the forest and is proud of what he's about to do. Perhaps this wasn't Sirius returned, but only an apparition conjured by the Stone from the part of Harry that was willing to die. But it doesn't strike Harry as out of character. Alla: I never doubted that real Sirius would have supported Harry in any kind of decision that he would have reached. I just think that Sirius tried to love him and Dumbledore took away from traumatized Harry even the chance to talk to Sirius and Lupin. I tend to make up my own endings of my favorite books if I am partially unhappy with the books, like in my ending of "Illiad" (sorry first thing to came to mind :)) Achilles and Hector are alive :). In my ending to Harry Potter everything is the same as in a real book , but Dumbledore is rotting in whatever version of Potterverse hell, together with Voldemort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 02:13:42 2014 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com) Date: 16 Nov 2014 18:13:42 -0800 Subject: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192722 Deborah: I might be channelling the girl who kicked the hornet's nest, but I can't think it would have been better for Harry to have been brought up by Sirius rather than the Dursleys. Sirius is charming, dishy, lovable ... and irresponsible. He acts before he thinks, and if this only brings trouble on his own head, then fine - he's brave and resilient enough to cope. But he shows no signs of having moved on from being the boy who tried to get his enemy killed by using his friend as an unwitting weapon. Yes, he loved Harry. He loved James, James's parents and Lupin. Did he love Lily that much, I wonder? She must have got between Sirius and James, and her moral superiority to Sirius was what helped James to become worthy of her love and, surely, opened something of a rift between them. Remember also the way Sirius shows signs of depression in OP? Not a stable personality. Not what you want in a single parent. Now I'm taking on the Beatles: love is not all you need. The Dursleys showed Harry the absence of love, granted, but they provided a safe environment - inadvertently, but in their home Harry was protected. When did Sirius's parents die - after Harry's birth, presumably. So, imagine Sirius, living with Harry in his old home complete with house-elf heads mounted on the walls, a screeching portrait and bedroom walls covered with Playboy centrespreads. Imagine Sirius, innocently no doubt, using Harry's admiration for his late father to, well, lead him astray frankly! To do things that James would have thought were fun. Would Harry have had anything resembling a 'saving-people thing' after a few years of that? As a teenager he can stand up to Sirius; as a toddler, surely his character would not be undamaged in spite of Lily's sacrifice. Seeing how Dudley turned out as a result of excessive and misguided love, I'm inclined to think that Harry was actually pretty lucky, spiders in the cupboard and all. Alla: I am not going to argue about whether Sirius would have been the best single parent or not. I love the character, but sure he had plenty of flaws. But in my head Sirius v Dursleys equals no contest. I consider Dursleys to be child abusers and also do not feel that they were punished as much as they should have been. I despise them and pity Harry for having to grow up with them, but I also think that Dumbledore got what he wanted. Of course Harry would love WW and would do anything to save their miserable selves in comparison to what he had to endure growing up. IMO . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sherriola at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 13:22:46 2014 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 06:22:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bb901d00269$94d011b0$be703510$@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192723 Alla: I am not going to argue about whether Sirius would have been the best single parent or not. I love the character, but sure he had plenty of flaws. But in my head Sirius v Dursleys equals no contest. I consider Dursleys to be child abusers and also do not feel that they were punished as much as they should have been. I despise them and pity Harry for having to grow up with them, but I also think that Dumbledore got what he wanted. Of course Harry would love WW and would do anything to save their miserable selves in comparison to what he had to endure growing up. IMO . Sherry: I agree with Alla in regard to the Dursleys. Locking a child in a cupboard, later, locking him in a room with bars on the windows, feeding him through a flap in the door, just the bare minimum to keep him alive. Yeah, that's abuse to me. Letting Marge get away with the stuff she did, and on and on. But I'll also say, we really don't know what kind of a father Sirius could have been, given the chance. At the time of his imprisonment, he and the Potters and other friends, had been fighting in a war for several years. That tends to cause people to grow up. As for the depression, he was on the run, a convicted murder, he was locked in a house he hated, with that horrible picture of his mother and Kreacher, and Snape, constantly poisoning his mind with negativity. He wasn't allowed to help in the war. Nobody bothered to try to bring out the truth about him. Who wouldn't be depressed? I think of the Sirius of POA and GOF. The man who risked everything to keep Harry safe from Pettigrew. The man who lived nearly a year, in his dog form, hiding in a cave and eating rats, to be near his godson. Two of my favorite scenes in the whole series happen in GOF. One is the almost hug from Molly in the hospital wing, but the other is Sirius with Harry as Harry told the story of the third task to Dumbledore. It always brings tears to my eyes. That man, I believe could have been a good father to Harry. Sherry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 18 02:30:01 2014 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com) Date: 17 Nov 2014 18:30:01 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: <0bb901d00269$94d011b0$be703510$@gmail.com> References: <0bb901d00269$94d011b0$be703510$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192724 Sherry: I agree with Alla in regard to the Dursleys. Locking a child in a cupboard, later, locking him in a room with bars on the windows, feeding him through a flap in the door, just the bare minimum to keep him alive. Yeah, that's abuse to me. Letting Marge get away with the stuff she did, and on and on. But I'll also say, we really don't know what kind of a father Sirius could have been, given the chance. At the time of his imprisonment, he and the Potters and other friends, had been fighting in a war for several years. That tends to cause people to grow up. As for the depression, he was on the run, a convicted murder, he was locked in a house he hated, with that horrible picture of his mother and Kreacher, and Snape, constantly poisoning his mind with negativity. He wasn't allowed to help in the war. Nobody bothered to try to bring out the truth about him. Who wouldn't be depressed? I think of the Sirius of POA and GOF. The man who risked everything to keep Harry safe from Pettigrew. The man who lived nearly a year, in his dog form, hiding in a cave and eating rats, to be near his godson. Two of my favorite scenes in the whole series happen in GOF. One is the almost hug from Molly in the hospital wing, but the other is Sirius with Harry as Harry told the story of the third task to Dumbledore. It always brings tears to my eyes. That man, I believe could have been a good father to Harry. Alla: I just want to clarify - for all the reasons you stated I do believe Sirius would have been a good father to Harry. But I see the POV of those who think he would not have been. However comparing him with Dursleys I will never see. I even think that there is a chance that (shhhh...) Snape could have been a better father to Harry than Dursleys, but this I would have to cross check for fanfiction contamination, but if there was such a miracle and Snape would have been able to see Harry as Lily's child, hey canon is blank, but who knows. Oy. I have to check my temperature. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Nov 18 04:29:01 2014 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonkmom at msn.com) Date: 17 Nov 2014 20:29:01 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: <0bb901d00269$94d011b0$be703510$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192725 First I should say---wow has yahoo changed! And second--Alla even suggesting that Snape could be a better parent to Harry than the Dursleys? What is this world coming to? Yes, Alla, there were any number of Snape-fostering-Harry-fan-fictions---most inspired (IMHO) by the line in one of the books about the chance of something being as likely as Snape buying Harry ice cream. And I might have argued favorably in the past that this could happen---but with the wisdom of Deathly Hallows hindsight, I'd say Snape didn't have it in him to be anything to anyone by this point. Although, perhaps if he could have raised Harry to be the man Lily would want him to be, instead of having to protect him from Lily's murderer, maybe.......Nah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kennyg1864 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 21:35:15 2014 From: kennyg1864 at yahoo.com (kennyg1864 at yahoo.com) Date: 17 Nov 2014 13:35:15 -0800 Subject: Battle of the Astronomy Tower (the lame version) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192726 (I'm putting this here b/c HPFGU-Movie is pretty much inactive) Anyone else HUGELY disappointed with the Battle of the Astronomy Tower in the 6th movie? (A friend emailed me about the new Creature Vault book (more here: http://entertainthis.usatoday.com/2014/11/14/this-harry-potter-concept-art-is-simply-breathtaking/ http://entertainthis.usatoday.com/2014/11/14/this-harry-potter-concept-art-is-simply-breathtaking/ Also the first customer review on amazon has an excellent video preview http://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Creature-Creatures-Plants/dp/0062374230 http://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Creature-Creatures-Plants/dp/0062374230 ) and we chatted a bit about the Pottermore reveal on Fenrir Greyback. Which then reminded me of the above disappointment.) The movie spent large amounts of screen time on Draco and the cabinet, building up suspense as to the cabinet's purpose...and then all that happened (other than Dumbledore's death) was that Bellatrix kicked over some plates and set fire to Hagrid's hut. And laughed evilly. Not to trivialize Dumbledore's death, but I wanted to see a battle between Death Eaters and expert wizards--teachers, not just the Order of the Phoenix. Let's see Flitwick kick some DE ass. Let's feel Hogwart's sanctity be threatened. Let's feel some actual fear for the students and the WW as a whole, and feel the horror that is Voldemort's return. Instead...*sigh*. IIRC I read somewhere that the director didn't want to confuse the audience with the battle which would be in the 8th movie. Honestly? Like people would go "Gee isn't this the same battle that happened two movies ago, even though that time was a few Death Eaters inside Hogwart's, and this time it's dozens of Death Eaters and giants, attacking from outside Hogwart's? Oh I am so *confused*!" kennyg1864, holding a grudge since 2009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arisboch at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 19:38:12 2014 From: arisboch at yahoo.com (Boris Baran) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 20:38:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <546CF1A4.5020408@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192727 Deborah wrote: I might be channelling the girl who kicked the hornet's nest, but I can't think it would have been better for Harry to have been brought up by Sirius rather than the Dursleys. Sirius is charming, dishy, lovable ... and irresponsible. He acts before he thinks, and if this only brings trouble on his own head, then fine - he's brave and resilient enough to cope. But he shows no signs of having moved on from being the boy who tried to get his enemy killed by using his friend as an unwitting weapon. Yes, he loved Harry. He loved James, James's parents and Lupin. Did he love Lily that much, I wonder? She must have got between Sirius and James, and her moral superiority to Sirius was what helped James to become worthy of her love and, surely, opened something of a rift between them. Remember also the way Sirius shows signs of depression in OP? Not a stable personality. Not what you want in a single parent. Now I'm taking on the Beatles: love is not all you need. The Dursleys showed Harry the absence of love, granted, but they provided a safe environment - inadvertently, but in their home Harry was protected. When did Sirius's parents die - after Harry's birth, presumably. So, imagine Sirius, living with Harry in his old home complete with house-elf heads mounted on the walls, a screeching portrait and bedroom walls covered with Playboy centrespreads. Imagine Sirius, innocently no doubt, using Harry's admiration for his late father to, well, lead him astray frankly! To do things that James would have thought were fun. Would Harry have had anything resembling a 'saving-people thing' after a few years of that? As a teenager he can stand up to Sirius; as a toddler, surely his character would not be undamaged in spite of Lily's sacrifice. Seeing how Dudley turned out as a result of excessive and misguided love, I'm inclined to think that Harry was actually pretty lucky, spiders in the cupboard and all. arisboch: Mere trifles. Sirius would teach him to stay safe and kick ass (and probably get laid, once he is old enough for that). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mongwen at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 02:25:09 2014 From: mongwen at gmail.com (Mongwen) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 21:25:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: <546CF1A4.5020408@yahoo.com> References: <546CF1A4.5020408@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501d00469$358b4060$a0a1c120$@com> No: HPFGUIDX 192728 I disagree with the assumption that Sirius would have been an unfit godfather even if he'd not been held prisoner. I think if he had those 12 years free to live his life and grow up, he might have turned into someone quite responsible. Most people do. However, he did not have that life and from that all else flows, so I think discussing whether he would be a fit parent is a fundamentally flawed question because of that lack. What we ended up with is a man who spent 12 years in one of the worst places in the wizarding world, surrounded only by grief and the grim (pun intended) thought that whatever sins he might have committed, he didn't do what he was accused of. He had dementors who soaked him in said grief by their very nature for years and years. There was no escape, not really even in dog form because surrounded and trapped does not lead to clear thinking or healing. He had that and vengance. That's it. He stewed in his own juices for years and years because he could do nothing else. Then when he got out, he did what he could to advise Harry during the Triwizard tournament and at other times, only to end up back in his much-hated family house full of dark objects and dark memories. Had he been able to live his life freely, I think the assumption that he would have returned to the Black homestead after his parents' death is also incorrect. He hated the place, which did not help his state of mind in any event, and he would not have gone there of his own accord had he been a truly free man. I can't manage the dislike for Dumbledore that seems prevalent on this list, maybe because I feel like it doesn't really matter whose fault it was and assigning blame accomplishes nothing. Sirius was railroaded. From all Dumbledore knew, he was the secret keeper, but I think the seeming belief that he deliberately bore false witness is not true. You can only tell what you believe. I hold Crouch more responsible for failing to ensure a full, fair trial, with all possible means used to ascertain the truth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 23 18:04:24 2014 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 Nov 2014 18:04:24 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 23 November 2014 Message-ID: <1416765864.34.11110.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192729 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 23 November 2014 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API. From lynde4 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 22:08:54 2014 From: lynde4 at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 14:08:54 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Sirius railroaded? And what was his view? In-Reply-To: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> References: <026001cffd47$42f63210$c8e29630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192730 kennyg1864 wrote: 1. I've always been bothered by the ease with which SB was sentenced to life in prison amongst the Dementors. I don't have my copy of PoA handy, but IIRC he was convicted based on "all that was left of Peter Pettigrew was a finger", and "several dead Muggles". And that's the total sum of the evidence. *snip* Sherry now: I would add also to the evidence, that Dumbledore *assumed* Sirius was the secret Keeper and presumably he told the then minister of magic and the head of magical law enforcement so. Truly, I don't hate Dumbledore, but my opinion of his goodness changed a lot over the course of the series, and the experience of Sirius was a large part of that. Lynda: Well, here goes. I always knew SB was railroaded, just like I knew from the first few sentences of SS that Dumbledore was a master manipulator. Meaning that I always read the series from that angle, so there was never the surprise factor for me that some experienced. Lynda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 30 18:03:04 2014 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 Nov 2014 18:03:04 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 30 November 2014 Message-ID: <1417370584.13.20176.m7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192731 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 30 November 2014 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API.