From shahara9 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 1 11:42:03 2015 From: shahara9 at yahoo.com (Shahara) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 06:42:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is the number of posts dropping? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192759 I never got Harry and Ginny, myself. ~shahara~ > On Mar 29, 2015, at 9:59 PM, alimcj at yahoo.com [HPforGrownups] wrote: > > She said she was doing a follow-up and that she decided marrying Ron and Hermione was a mistake (DUH). Maybe she'll try doing her "adult novel" impulse in a wizard love triangle .... > > alimcj > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From liz.treky at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 2 07:48:32 2015 From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (liz.treky at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 08:48:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape questions In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <2ED78EEE0DF64E88A215001D22037D8B@LizHP> No: HPFGUIDX 192760 Voldemort was said to be the most power legilimens, yet Snape could apparently easily fool him into thinking he was on his side. Snape said in lessons with Harry to control his mind/emotions, so how hard for Snape was it to have to work with the guy who killed Lily? I seriously think that is why he came across so cold and uncaring to everyone. Also, Snape was no fool, he must have known Voldemort wanted full control of the Elder wand, so had he just accepted he would be killed (very unlikely for a Sytherin), or was his death an easy option for JK Rowling considering public opinion by that time. Thoughts? Liz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubhi757 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 08:58:01 2015 From: hubhi757 at gmail.com (Hilton Hubbard) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 10:58:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192761 Remember that at the beginning, Snape was on Voldemort's side, in all sincerity. So his security checks would have shown that. And with everything that happened to Lord V - the failed killing of baby Harry, the half-life in exile, the return via Pettigrew, controlling former followers who'd been disloyal/opportunistic, etc, etc - it's not surprising that he'd take Snape pretty much at face value. He would have checked again, post-graveyard, but having done so once, he'd probably not bother again. His own arrogance wouldn't let him imagine he could be wrong. Snape, as we know, didn't enjoy life. Every day, he blamed himself for Lily's death. Every time he summoned a Patronus, it all came back. The sight of Harry twisted the knife in that pain. And the life of a spy, especially a double agent, is incredibly stressful. I don't think he'd be inclined to fight death, and I think he'd welcome the thought that he'd been instrumental in LV's downfall and a better future for the wizarding world, as long as he didn't have to be part of it. He'd done enough. Did he know about the Hallows? His mother would have told him the story, but one doesn't expect to encounter, say, Cinderella's glass slipper or the Princess's pea in real life. Dumbledore spotted the unusual properties of James's invisibility cloak - would Snape have spared it a single scornful thought? Presumably Dumbledore would have happened to mention that his wand would pass to Snape and was very powerful, but he was if anything more secretive than Snape himself so he might well not have actually named it. It's hard to imagine most Slytherins not taking the opportunity to own and control the Elder Wand, but Snape knew a thing or two about power and where it leads, from his dealings with both LV and Dumbledore, and I don't believe he'd want it. It couldn't give him what he'd always longed for, anyway, so why bother? Once he'd undone the wrong he blamed himself for, by ensuring a safe future for Lily's son, there was nothing left for him but the escape of death. Sad ending, but the one he wanted. And I can't imagine JKR imagining Snape waltzing off into the sunset, like Dorothy going down the yellow brick road! He was what she'd made him, and though the force of public opinion probably surprised her, I'm confident his end had been planned pretty much from Day 1. Deborah Hubbard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cresorchid at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 13:22:24 2015 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 08:22:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape questions In-Reply-To: <2ED78EEE0DF64E88A215001D22037D8B@LizHP> References:

<2ED78EEE0DF64E88A215001D22037D8B@LizHP> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192762 I believe that Voldemort trusted his own ability in legilimency because he was the strongest legilimens there was in existence. The fact that another could have superior occlumency probably didn't even occur to him because of his delusions of grandeur. As for Snape's difficulty working with Voldemort, I think he blamed himself as much as Voldemort for having given Voldie the prophecy. So every time he thought about her killing, he had as much self-loathing as loathing for Voldemort. Also, with occlumency, he basically closed off ALL his emotions?I think that was one of the benefits of occlumency for him. I am not even sure he would have survived Lily's death if he hadn't been able to close off his emotions so completely. When Lily died his occlumency was probably the only thing that made it possible for him to keep teaching so he used it constantly?not only when in a dangerous situation which is how most people use occlumency. Cutting off his emotions when he was already a bitter individual because of his life experiences, made him much harder and colder. As for the elder wand, I doubt that Dumbledore ever told him. Dumbles told everyone how much he trusted Severus all the time, but he was almost as power hungry as Tom (in my opinion). He needed to be in control of everything?and he did so by restricting information. I doubt that many people knew that the three hallows were real. Remember how surprised everyone was when Ollivander admitted that the death stick was indeed real. Even if Snape knew that 'Voldemort was searching for the elder wand, he probably thought it was another of Tom's delusions. I don't believe he had a clue that Dumbledore's wand was a hallow. I also believe that Dumbledore knew he was condemning Snape to death by having him commit his murder. Despite all his talk of second chances, etc. I think he believed that it would be divine retribution that Snape die. Just think how he wanted to save Malfoy's soul?implying that no more damage could possibly be done to Snape's soul, or that any damage Snape suffered from committing the murder was unimportant, possibly even deserved. Crescent On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 2:48 AM, liz.treky at ntlworld.com [HPforGrownups] < HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Voldemort was said to be the most power legilimens, yet Snape could > apparently easily fool him into thinking he was on his side. Snape said in > lessons with Harry to control his mind/emotions, so how hard for Snape was > it to have to work with the guy who killed Lily? I seriously think that is > why he came across so cold and uncaring to everyone. > > Also, Snape was no fool, he must have known Voldemort wanted full control > of the Elder wand, so had he just accepted he would be killed (very > unlikely for a Sytherin), or was his death an easy option for JK Rowling > considering public opinion by that time. > > Thoughts? > Liz > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bart at moosewise.com Thu Apr 2 17:24:03 2015 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 13:24:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape questions In-Reply-To: <2ED78EEE0DF64E88A215001D22037D8B@LizHP> References:

<2ED78EEE0DF64E88A215001D22037D8B@LizHP> Message-ID: <551D7B33.8070800@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192763 On 4/2/2015 3:48 AM, liz.treky at ntlworld.com [HPforGrownups] wrote: > Voldemort was said to be the most power legilimens, yet Snape could > apparently easily fool him into thinking he was on his side. Snape > said in lessons with Harry to control his mind/emotions, so how hard > for Snape was it to have to work with the guy who killed Lily? I > seriously think that is why he came across so cold and uncaring to > everyone. > Also, Snape was no fool, he must have known Voldemort wanted full > control of the Elder wand, so had he just accepted he would be killed > (very unlikely for a Sytherin), or was his death an easy option for JK > Rowling considering public opinion by that time. > Bart: Many indications were given that Snape had magical talent and ability on the same class as DD and Morty, better in some ways (notably his understanding of potions) and less in others. Ever hear of the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object? Snape was a brilliant occlumens, and Morty was overconfident. So, as long as Snape remained clever and always had a believable explanation for Voldemort's question, he didn't examine too carefully whether or not Morty was telling the truth. One problem with Snape was that he expected his students to be as hard-working and careful as he was. With many students, it caused them to work harder to try to meet Snape's expectations With others, like Neville, his methods broke their confidence so much that they worked at well below their potential. As far as the Elder Wand goes, the game of "Wand, wand, who's got the wand" was probably more complicated than it needed to be. But the owner of the wand didn't have to be killed in order for control to pass, only defeated (like Grindy or, for that matter, DD, who was disarmed by Draco before he was killed by Snape, passing control of the wand to Draco, not Snape). A lot of readers were disappointed that JKR didn't have a "good Slytherin" student, one who took the attitude, "That Quidditch stuff is just games, Harry. This is REAL." Still, there WAS Slughorn; highly ambitious, willing to manipulate people to get what he wanted, but, in the Battle of Hogwarts, also willing to put himself at risk fighting against Morty's forces. Bart -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Apr 3 16:57:32 2015 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: 03 Apr 2015 09:57:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape questions In-Reply-To: <2ED78EEE0DF64E88A215001D22037D8B@LizHP> References:

<2ED78EEE0DF64E88A215001D22037D8B@LizHP> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192764 Liz: Also, Snape was no fool, he must have known Voldemort wanted full control of the Elder wand, so had he just accepted he would be killed (very unlikely for a Sytherin), or was his death an easy option for JK Rowling considering public opinion by that time. Pippin: Since JKR constructed the epilogue long before she finished the rest of her tale and perhaps even before the books became so wildly popular, I doubt public opinion had anything to do with her reasons for killing him off. The epilogue would make no sense if Snape's character weren't a settled question for Harry, and how could it be settled, if Snape wasn't dead? Why should a Slytherin not accept death? "Any means to achieve their ends" could certainly include an honorable death -- and makes for a wicked little wordplay, too. Snape hasn't really got any better options. He can't kill Voldemort -- no one can. His mission to protect Harry is finished, except for delivering Dumbledore's last message. He might try to escape in order to do that, and he does plead with Voldemort to let him go after Harry. But to fight or run would be to reveal that he is not the faithful Death Eater he has appeared to be. That would jeopardize all the secrets Snape still holds and everyone whom Voldemort might suspect of helping him -- the Malfoys, for example. There was one other thing Snape could have done -- he could have reminded Voldemort that Draco had deprived Dumbledore of his wand before Snape got there, and therefore perhaps it was Draco, not Snape, who needed to be killed. But Snape is no longer willing to let another die just so Voldemort can get what he wants. Snape and Dumbledore knew from the beginning that Voldemort might kill Snape for any reason, or no reason at all. It was a risk they chose to take. Snape was clearly expected to save others if he could, but to let them die rather than reveal himself -- do you suppose he is such a coward that he wouldn't think that applied to his own life too? Pippin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 5 17:03:12 2015 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 5 Apr 2015 17:03:12 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 05 April 2015 Message-ID: <1428253392.10.15701.m11@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192765 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 05 April 2015 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. 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