From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jan 2 01:38:18 2016 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: 01 Jan 2016 17:38:18 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Dumbledore ultimately redeem himself? In-Reply-To: <56857560.4020306@moosewise.com> References: <000f4242.272ec0f965d49a2b@aol.com> <56852E9B.9000407@moosewise.com> <56857560.4020306@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192903 Bart: Now, that brings up a couple of interesting questions. However, it is pretty well established that DD does not tell lies unless he has a strong reason for doing so. Being brought up by the Dursley's resulted in an empathy on the part of Harry for the persecuted, but people who are brought up with abusers more often repeat the pattern of abuse, with a "Now that I have power, I'm going to get revenge!" Pippin: A high proportion of abusers were abused themselves, but that does not mean that most abused children become abusive. The most commonly quoted estimate is only about a third. Far too many, of course, but maybe an acceptable risk if there is a far better chance than one in three that Harry is going to be murdered otherwise. Does JKR do enough to show us this is so? "The Art of War" says the best battle is the one you don't have to fight. Good advice for a general, but a problem for the novelist who has to depict one. Like Sherlock Holmes' dog who did nothing in the night, the power of the bond of blood had to be shown by what *doesn't* happen. This is a magic that never fell asleep on guard, couldn't be stolen or seduced or subverted and was never fooled by tricks or disguises. It was also going to wear off the day Harry turned 17. So Voldemort, who had all the time in the world at his disposal, was given ample reason not to test it, and risk being humiliated once again. It wouldn't have done much good if the Longbottoms had taken Harry in, since they didn't last long -- it would only have meant Harry losing another family who loved him. But IMO it smacks of anti-Muggle bias to think that if Dumbledore wanted a truly horrible family to raise Harry, he couldn't have found one in the Wizarding World. The Gaunts and the Snapes are proof enough of that. The "pampered prince" comment has to be understood in the light of Dumbledore's own experience, IMO. Adult adulation and extraordinary abilities turned Dumbledore's head, made him think he was fit to rule the wizarding world at the age of eighteen. He's not talking about a mere absence of trauma. After all, Dumbledore expects just as much loyalty from Hermione and Ron as he does from Harry, and they don't have abusive backgrounds. Harry is a super-altruist, but I question whether Dumbledore thought he needed to make him one or even thought that he could. In our world, Harry would probably be the kind who donates one of his kidneys to a stranger. It's true that some such people come from deprived backgrounds and say they don't want others to suffer as they did -- but some come from comfortable lives and explain their generosity by saying it's only fair that they share their good fortune with the world. Only such a person could have performed the magic Harry used to provide blanket protection against Voldemort in the battle of Hogwarts. But the war still could have been won without that -- it would have been grimmer, and longer, but IMO, at the outset the only thing that Dumbledore needed Harry to do was locate the horcrux(es) and allow the one within him to be destroyed, even if it cost his life. It still seems like a lot to ask -- but only in the context of popular fiction. Only in popular fiction can soldiers expect that a commander who loves them would be able to save them all, if only they are the chosen ones, brave enough and true. Harry, whose expectations about war may have been formed by Megaman cartoons and who never paid much attention in History of Magic, discovers this as a nasty shock. But in our world, as in the Potterverse, military commanders know they must win the love of their troops to be effective, and yet it is their duty to send those troops into battle and death. The commanders may not know which of their soldiers are going to die, but if they did know, they would still have to love them and send them to their doom. Dumbledore actually told Harry that it might take someone who was willing to fight what seemed to be a losing battle in order to keep Voldemort from coming back. But Harry wanted to think that he'd been chosen because he'd demonstrated an ability to survive, not because his life was going to be forfeit anyway. Dumbledore let him think so, and for that, indeed, Dumbledore was responsible. But he did make sure that Harry would know the truth before he faced Voldemort in the end. There's this theory that Dumbledore chose the Dursleys because he wanted to fool Harry into thinking the wizarding world was some kind of utopia in order to get him to fight for it. Again, that only makes sense in the context of fantasy fiction. Do I need to point out that no soldiers in the history of the world have ever given their lives for an actual existing utopia? Pippin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 3 17:55:16 2016 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 3 Jan 2016 17:55:16 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 03 January 2016 Message-ID: <1451843716.13.11272.m16@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192904 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 03 January 2016 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 10 17:55:15 2016 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 10 Jan 2016 17:55:15 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 10 January 2016 Message-ID: <1452448515.10.32001.m7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192905 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 10 January 2016 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API. From klewellen at shellworld.net Sun Jan 10 22:45:38 2016 From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:45:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Perhaps a very simple question? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192906 Hi all, Which I realize may have been answered before, so I am sorry in advance if such is the case. I have just this afternoon finished reading one of the more extensive bits of fan fiction. Its called The Dangerous Universe series, and I cannot recommend it enough, although you must stick with it, if not swiftly caught up in the story, easy truth be told I am no judge of course, it is only the second such series I have finished so far. In any case, something that happens in this alternative telling got me wondering. Why did not Voldemort just kill Petunia to reach Harry? Certainly, even though they treated Harry beyond terribly, their presence serves some important purposes for the writer, for the story. Still, it would have been rather easy to remove that haven for Harry would it not? Thoughts if anyone wants to discuss. Frankly reading this surprisingly detailed effort has me likely planning yet another read of the novels themselves smiles. That and starting one of the other fan fiction pieces provided me by a list member as well. On a personal note, my sincere thanks to those who did this for me off list. All the options helped me manage a particularly challenging holiday season in a fashion that might not have otherwise been possible. cheers, Kare From cresorchid at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 23:13:50 2016 From: cresorchid at gmail.com (Sandra Lynn) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:13:50 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Perhaps a very simple question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192907 As far as I know that question has never been answered by Rowling and I have wondered it myself. In fact, there are some fan fiction stories where that is what happens (Dursley's being murdered). If anyone else has heard a reason why JKR never had Voldemort try that, I would love to hear it. I especially think that the blood protection was questionable after Voldemort used Harry's blood to help create his new body. Crescent On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Karen Lewellen klewellen at shellworld.net [HPforGrownups] wrote: > > > Hi all, Which I realize may have been answered before, so I am sorry in > advance if such is the case. I have just this afternoon finished reading > one of the more extensive bits of fan fiction. Its called The Dangerous > Universe series, and I cannot recommend it enough, although you must stick > with it, if not swiftly caught up in the story, easy truth be told I am no > judge of course, it is only the second such series I have finished so far. > In any case, something that happens in this alternative telling got me > wondering. Why did not Voldemort just kill Petunia to reach Harry? > Certainly, even though they treated Harry beyond terribly, their presence > serves some important purposes for the writer, for the story. Still, it > would have been rather easy to remove that haven for Harry would it not? > Thoughts if anyone wants to discuss. Frankly reading this surprisingly > detailed effort has me likely planning yet another read of the novels > themselves smiles. That and starting one of the other fan fiction pieces > provided me by a list member as well. On a personal note, my sincere thanks > to those who did this for me off list. All the options helped me manage a > particularly challenging holiday season in a fashion that might not have > otherwise been possible. cheers, Kare > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klewellen at shellworld.net Sun Jan 10 23:29:54 2016 From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 18:29:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Perhaps a very simple question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192908 You know, doing so in order of the Phoenix might have been the time...save that she did not save Sirius. I still feel that is cruel on top of cruel, leaving Harry no one of his own so to speak. Kare > On Sun, 10 Jan 2016, Sandra Lynn cresorchid at gmail.com [HPforGrownups] wrote: > As far as I know that question has never been answered by Rowling and I > have wondered it myself. In fact, there are some fan fiction stories where > that is what happens (Dursley's being murdered). If anyone else has heard a > reason why JKR never had Voldemort try that, I would love to hear it. > > I especially think that the blood protection was questionable after > Voldemort used Harry's blood to help create his new body. > > Crescent > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Karen Lewellen klewellen at shellworld.net > [HPforGrownups] wrote: > >> >> Why did not Voldemort just kill Petunia to reach Harry? >> Certainly, even though they treated Harry beyond terribly, their presence >> serves some important purposes for the writer, for the story. Still, it >> would have been rather easy to remove that haven for Harry would it not? >> cheers, Kare >> >> > From ddankanyin at cox.net Mon Jan 11 17:15:35 2016 From: ddankanyin at cox.net (Dorothy Dankanyin) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 12:15:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Perhaps a very simple question? In-Reply-To: <4PDt1s00a0kRMnm01PDuTw> References: <4PDt1s00a0kRMnm01PDuTw> Message-ID: <5693E337.6090902@cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 192909 For these questions and others relating to fan fiction or the original books themselves, I would think that the stories were written as they were (and bought into) so one would be brought along on the narrative. If it were that simple to kill Harry by killing his aunt and uncle, what good would come of that? No Harry Potter series? Dorothy On 1/10/2016 6:13 PM, Sandra Lynn cresorchid at gmail.com [HPforGrownups] wrote: > As far as I know that question has never been answered by Rowling and > I have wondered it myself. In fact, there are some fan fiction stories > where that is what happens (Dursley's being murdered). If anyone else > has heard a reason why JKR never had Voldemort try that, I would love > to hear it. > > I especially think that the blood protection was questionable after > Voldemort used Harry's blood to help create his new body. > > Crescent > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Karen Lewellen > klewellen at shellworld.net > [HPforGrownups] > wrote: > > Hi all, Which I realize may have been answered before, so I am > sorry in advance if such is the case. I have just this afternoon > finished reading one of the more extensive bits of fan fiction. > Its called The Dangerous Universe series, and I cannot recommend > it enough, although you must stick with it, if not swiftly caught > up in the story, easy truth be told I am no judge of course, it is > only the second such series I have finished so far. In any case, > something that happens in this alternative telling got me > wondering. Why did not Voldemort just kill Petunia to reach Harry? > Certainly, even though they treated Harry beyond terribly, their > presence serves some important purposes for the writer, for the > story. Still, it would have been rather easy to remove that haven > for Harry would it not? Thoughts if anyone wants to discuss. > Frankly reading this surprisingly detailed effort has me likely > planning yet another read of the novels themselves smiles. That > and starting one of the other fan fiction pieces provided me by a > list member as well. On a personal note, my sincere thanks to > those who did this for me off list. All the options helped me > manage a particularly challenging holiday season in a fashion that > might not have otherwise been possible. cheers, Kare > > > __._ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drednort at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 21:33:02 2016 From: drednort at gmail.com (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 08:33:02 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Perhaps a very simple question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192910 On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Karen Lewellen klewellen at shellworld.net [HPforGrownups] wrote: > > Why did not Voldemort just kill Petunia to reach Harry? Certainly, even though they treated Harry beyond terribly, their presence > serves some important purposes for the writer, for the story. Still, it would have been rather easy to remove that haven for Harry would > it not? Petunia (and Vernon and Dudley) were protected by Harry's presence - the spell wasn't just one way protection. Note that when the protection is breaking down (on Harry's 17th birthday) the Order of the Phoenix take steps to move the Dursleys for their own safety. ***** " - Kingsley and Mr. Weasley explained it all as well,? Harry pressed on remorselessly. ?Once I?m seventeen, the protective charm that keeps me safe will break, and that exposes you as well as me. The Order is sure Voldemort will target you, whether to torture you to try and find out where I am, or because he thinks by holding you hostage I?d come and try to rescue you.? Uncle Vernon?s and Harry?s eyes met. Harry was sure that in that instant they were both wondering the same thing. Then Uncle Ver?non walked on and Harry resumed, ?You?ve got to go into hiding and the Order wants to help. You?re being offered serious protection, the best there is.? ***** Voldemort couldn't get to Petunia while the protections were in place. They protected Harry and his family. Shaun -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klewellen at shellworld.net Tue Jan 12 16:50:34 2016 From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 11:50:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Perhaps a very simple question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192911 Shaun wrote: On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Shaun Hately drednort at gmail.com [HPforGrownups] wrote: > > Petunia (and Vernon and Dudley) were protected by Harry's presence - the > spell wasn't just one way protection. Note that when the protection is > breaking down (on Harry's 17th birthday) the Order of the Phoenix take > steps to move the Dursleys for their own safety. > > ***** > " - Kingsley and Mr. Weasley explained it all as well, Harry pressed on > remorselessly. Once Im seventeen, the protective charm that keeps me safe > will break, and that exposes you as well as me. The Order is sure Voldemort > will target you, whether to torture you to try and find out where I am, or > because he thinks by holding you hostage Id come and try to rescue you. > > Uncle Vernons and Harrys eyes met. Harry was sure that in that instant > they were both wondering the same thing. Then Uncle Vernon walked on and > Harry resumed, Youve got to go into hiding and the Order wants to help. > Youre being offered serious protection, the best there is. > > ***** > > Voldemort couldn't get to Petunia while the protections were in place. They > protected Harry and his family. Kare: Thanks for providing this rich and detailed answer! yet another reason for a third read through soon. Actually that brings up another question, I know there are companion sites like the Harry Potter Wiki someone shared, but has anyone as of yet written a reader's companion book for the series? Say like the many that exist for Dickens? Thanks again, Kare From lilandriss at yahoo.com Thu Jan 14 14:00:54 2016 From: lilandriss at yahoo.com (Alanna) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 14:00:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: R.I.P Allan Rickman References: <1843521371.4967295.1452780054366.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1843521371.4967295.1452780054366.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192912 Oh holy crap! Very, very sad news!? http://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jan/14/alan-rickman-giant-of-british-film-and-theatre-dies-at-69 Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android Alanna ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Walabio at MacOSX.COM Fri Jan 15 10:55:43 2016 From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (=?utf-8?Q?=E2=B8=98=C5=ACalabio=E2=80=BD?=) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:55:43 +0000 Subject: R.I.P Allan Rickman In-Reply-To: <1452849663.797.11582.m7@yahoogroups.com> References: <1452849663.797.11582.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192913 Allan Rickman played a good Snape. Walabio From shahara9 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 15 20:06:04 2016 From: shahara9 at yahoo.com (Shahara) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:06:04 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: R.I.P Allan Rickman In-Reply-To: References: <1452849663.797.11582.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5A8D76B9-BFC5-41F2-9067-42354E05A02C@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192914 Alan Rickman also played a bad Snape! That's why we love him. ? ~shahara~ > On Jan 15, 2016, at 4:55 AM, ??alabio? Walabio at MacOSX.COM [HPforGrownups] wrote: > > Allan Rickman played a good Snape. > > Walabio > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frogcreekwoods at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 11:45:17 2016 From: frogcreekwoods at gmail.com (Ellie NC) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 06:45:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: R.I.P Allan Rickman In-Reply-To: <5A8D76B9-BFC5-41F2-9067-42354E05A02C@yahoo.com> References: <1452849663.797.11582.m7@yahoogroups.com> <5A8D76B9-BFC5-41F2-9067-42354E05A02C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192915 Alan Rickman will always be first and foremost Colonel Brandon (Sense and Sensibility) to me. I think that character was closest to the true sweet nature of the man. But of course he was a fantastic Snape and will always love him for that as well. Ellie > On Jan 15, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Shahara shahara9 at yahoo.com [HPforGrownups] wrote: > > Alan Rickman also played a bad Snape! That's why we love him. ? > > ~shahara~ > >> On Jan 15, 2016, at 4:55 AM, ??alabio? Walabio at MacOSX.COM [HPforGrownups] wrote: >> >> >> Allan Rickman played a good Snape. >> >> Walabio >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CatMcNulty at comcast.net Sat Jan 16 15:55:27 2016 From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (CatMcNulty at comcast.net) Date: 16 Jan 2016 07:55:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: R.I.P Allan Rickman In-Reply-To: References: <1452849663.797.11582.m7@yahoogroups.com> <5A8D76B9-BFC5-41F2-9067-42354E05A02C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 192917 NEVER was there a more talented and gifted actor. NO ONE could have played such a complex, complicated, and intricate character with such grace and ease! He made JKR's imagination and creation LIVE! Sir Alan...You will be in our hearts ALWAYS! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 17 17:55:17 2016 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 17 Jan 2016 17:55:17 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 17 January 2016 Message-ID: <1453053317.11.14339.m9@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192918 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 17 January 2016 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 24 17:55:36 2016 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jan 2016 17:55:36 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, Sunday, 24 January 2016 Message-ID: <1453658136.14.18262.m7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 192919 Weekly Chat reminder When: Sunday, 24 January 2016 07:00 PM to 08:00 PM (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London Where: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK From: HPforGrownups Calendar Privacy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "bell.png" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API.