From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 01:02:21 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: very OT dumb question, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701010221.6961.qmail@...> CRACK! Red Eye Randy apparates into the discussion ! S P O I L E R S S P A C E F O R R E N T H E R E C H E A P Thanks for finding the words to my biggest hit song! I am deeply honored that people still remember my song after 3 years off the charts! Thank you again! Please deposit 8 and 1/2 sickles into the jukebox. I feel obligated to write another few verses of song for Books 4 and 5 since neither one was published when I wrote the first song! I will work on that soon. I HAVE FINALLY FINISHED... Well, I finally escaped from my closet underneath the stairs. I finished the book today. Basically last night I almost finished with only one chapter left. Every time I tried to read the book this week, Carole or one of her three assasins would hit me with shouts of "Stupefy" or "Petrificus Totalus" as I reached for the book! Honestly, I was reading the book aloud to my son after reading it to myself a couple of chapters at a time. Since we were only half way through the book on Friday afternoon, I took matters into my own hand and grabbed the bunny slipper portkey and read the next 400+ pages this weekend. I have therefore read the book 1 and 1/2 times now, and I plan to read aloud to Brian until completion. MY FIRST THOUGHTS ON BOOK 5 (OOP SOUNDS TOO MUCH LIKE OOPS!) I was saddened by the loss of Sirius and worn out by reading the battle scenes on Sunday night. I was encouraged by the improvements made by Neville, and glad to see Ron Weasley have something go his way! I cheered when I read the part about the centaurs carrying Umbridge off. She really did get carried away ( the pun was definitely intended by JKR.) FLASHBACK... I recalled a moment from my past when Umbridge and McGonagall went toe to toe about Harry Potter being qualified to become an Auror. Umbridge was the Assitant Principal of my High School, and my mom filled the role of Professor McGonagall quite nicely. At age 16, I had read the school notice about fall registration incorrectly and missed the date by one day only to be ridiculed and dissected by Assitant Principal Umbridge and Mommy McGonagall came to the rescue and took the blame. I now know why I hated the character of Umbridge so much !!!!! She worked at my high school before she went to work for the Ministry of Magic. I am quite sure that Snape tought several engineering classes at my college as well. Potions is a prerequisite for Thermodynamics classes. I oscillated between loving and hating this book several times during the week. The chapter that left a bad taste in my mouth was "The Lost Prophecy". It was not so much the lack of new information as the complete loss of control by Harry in Dumbledore's office after Dumbledore saves his life in the previous chapter. I do understand his angst over the loss of Sirius because he was the closest link to having a real home that Harry ever had going for him. It is now obvious that Rowling plans to speak directly to the age group that Harry represents in each book. Since 15 year olds need to control their emotions, she shows them the consequences when they don't. She shows the long term effects that careless behavior and bad decisions can have. The lives of Sirius and James are illustrations of the long term results that behavior can have. Sirius ends up getting into trouble for rash decisions, and Snape becomes a troubled soul from all the abuse he receives. JKR's constant trend to have the underdog become the victor is also evident. The giant in the Forest story ilustrates the idea that a good deed can reap rewards in unforeseen ways. The giant helps Hermy and Harry to escape from the centaurs. If Hagrid had not taken them to see him, they would not have had the good fortune. LOOKING INTO THE CRYSTAL BALL... I predict the emergence of Neville as an important character, perhaps saving Harry's life or indeed killing Voldemorte since Harry appears not to have the stomach for it. The House elves will one day be freed in mass and join forces to save the Wizards from the wrath of Voldemort as well. The Giants will have a battle in book 7 where some join the good guys thanks to Hagrid. AFTER BOOK SEVEN... Harry will learn the benefits of cosmetic surgery to remove his scar. He later becomes Headmaster of Hogwarts after a long career outside of teaching. Hermione comes back to Hogwarts to take Professor McGonagall's post. This is also after a long career on the outside. Ron becomes the Minister of Magic after succeeding his father. Crabbe and Goyle become bouncers at the Hog's Head Dance Lounge. The Tampa Bay Devil Rays play the Chicago Cubs in the World Series. Oh, sorry that could obviously never happen. Enough babbling Randy...... He bows and touches the bunny slipper portkey once more. Pooof. --- Scott wrote: > Kaitlin wrote: > "Long long ago, in the stone age of HPfGU, someone > wrote the > fabulous song, "I am the very model of an adult > Harry Potter fan." > Who was that person, and is he (I'm pretty sure it > was a guy) a > member here? Also, would someone be able to post a > copy of the song > here?" > > --Considering the fact that I frankly can't for the > life of me > separate a tune from the original words, or, for > that matter > remember the tune to begin with, I'm not going to > pretend to have > written this great Filk when, I think, the term > "Filk" had not yet > been coined). > > In any case a quick search of the archives will > produce this link-- > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives/message/6308 > > which is exactly what you're looking for! (I'm > posting it below > which I hope is OK with Randy...are you still out > there?) > > Ok everyone attention!! *picks up wand and taps > music stand* A > rousing chorus now... > > music begins... > > * * * > > (Sung to the tune of "I Am The Very Model of a > Modern Major General") > > I am the very model of an Adult Harry Potter Fan > (words by Randy Estes You can make up your own!) > > I am the very model of an Adult Harry Potter Fan > My book collection's full of books that other people > wish to ban! > I'm quite adept at Hogwarts facts, Yahoo message > boards I have read > From Slytherin, and Hufflepuff, to potions that fill > up my head. > > I'm very good at quoting phrases, I have even > memorized > When Harry fights the Basilisk, my full attention's > mesmorized. > I can remember everything that happened at the > Shrieking Shack > When Lupin and Scabbers ran off, I almost had a > heart attack. > > When Quirrell took off his Turban, I never quite > expected that > The bad guy we were looking for was hiding > underneath his hat. > But Harry grabbed the Sorcerer's Stone while looking > at reflections > of > The visions in the mirror to save characters that we > all love. > > I can't stop thinking 'bout the next book J.K. > Rowling's dreaming up > Will Harry date Hermione, and who will win the next > Quidditch Cup? > When other people are asleep, I'm making up this > silly song > 'Cause Harry Potter's magic has made something in my > head go wrong! > > NOW EVERYONE SING TOGETHER!... > > When children's books cause such demand > You see this can get out of hand. > I am the very model of an Adult Harry Potter Fan! > > > Well? What do you guys think about it? > > Round 2: > > Say thanks for all the accolades. > I'm really glad you liked it so. > But now this song is in my head > And I can't seem to let it go. > > My wife says I am getting worse > "Oh please don't write another verse!" > Somebody please go find a nurse > Because I think that I've been cursed! > > So won't somebody join the game > And write another verse with me? > There really isn't any > true responsibility. > > So Gryffindors and Hufflepuffs > And Slytherins please show your stuff. > This Ravenclaw's rolled up his cuffs > And posted all this silly fluff! > > (The crowd joins in for the chorus:) > > When children's books cause such demand > You see this can get out of hand > He is the very model of an Adult Harry Potter Fan! > > * * * > > "Ah music," he said, wiping his eyes. "A magic > beyond all we do > here! And now, bedtime. Off you trot!" (Dumbledore > PS/SS p.95) > > Scott (who's off to bed himself) > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 01:32:25 2003 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:32:25 -0500 Subject: OOP: Disappointing Message-ID: <000c01c33f70$a0fe1900$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- My response to Phyllis' message, as posted to the main list earlier today. ----- Original Message ----- From: pennylin To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Disappointing Hi -- Well, I definitely *loved* OOP, but I don't think it is immune from criticism either. It does have some problems, as do all the previous books. I'm still pretty well convinced that Scholastic really needs to look into hiring some of *us* as consulting editors! We all caught these problems on first or second read ....... why can't they catch these problems when they've been working with the manuscript for months and months? Sigh. Anyway, I think Phyllis raises some good issues (and I like that better than just generalized grumbling about the book didn't live up to expectations and hype). <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if you've re-read it yet, but for me, the 2nd read through brought out the humor and the excitement that my initial read missed. I say that: I'm not finished with my re-read mind you, but so far, I'm seeing considerably more humor than I experienced on first read. Here's why I think that is: I think I was awfully *tense* when I was reading OOP the first time. Who would die? Would Hermione and Ron kiss (bwahaha, they didn't!)? And, frankly, the narrative itself is *tense* and so I was of a tense mind-set, reading a book that interjects conflict and tenseness in the first chapter (when normally, Rowling doesn't do this). But, on re-read (and listening to the audio), I'm finding myself smiling and giggling at things that I probably didn't smile at in the first read. I'm reading it in a more relaxed frame of mind, and I think that is helping my perception entirely. <<<<<2. The Thestrals: When we first learn that the only people who can see thestrals are those that can see death, I immediately started to wonder why Harry can only see them after Cedric's death when he saw his Mum die as a baby. I kept hoping that an explanation would be provided, but when none came by the end of the book, I was very disappointed. IMO, this is a major flint. I think JKR confirmed that it is a flint by the way she answered the question at the Royal Albert Hall event. She was asked why Harry can see the thestrals only now when he saw his Mum die as a baby. I think JKR jumped to the conclusion that she was being asked why Harry can see the thestrals now when he couldn't see them at the end of GoF, because she answered the question by saying that the knowledge of Cedric's death needed to "sink in" before the thestrals gradually came into focus. She ended what appeared to be a rehearsed answer by saying "that's my story." If this is indeed a mistake, I would have much rather heard her own up to it than try to concoct a story that provides an inadequate explanation. I think the problem here is that this isn't easily fixed in future editions, like the wand order problem or the "ancestor" error. I just can't help but wonder why her editors don't pick up on stuff like this! I think if she was really planning on introducing the thestrals in book 5, she could have easily avoided the problem at the end of book 4 by having Harry transported back to Privet Drive by another means (after all he went through at the end of book 4, it would have been understandable that he wouldn't have wanted to ride the carriages or the train with the other students) - the Knight Bus, perhaps? But this still wouldn't have solved the problem of his not seeing them before given that he saw his Mum die as a baby. I can't accept that it's because he was a baby when it happened - he hears her screaming, sees green light and hears Voldemort's laughter when the dementors approach, so he obviously remembers her death (even if it's only in his subconscious).>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm actually pretty satisfied with Rowling's answer on that one. I think that because he didn't *see* Lily die with knowledge of what he was seeing (if he actually *saw* it at all), this answer works for me. He *hears* things from his memory, but seeing the flash of green light is not the same thing as seeing the green light hitting his mother in the face and watching her fall to the ground and *knowing* that she's dead. A 15-month old can't experience death in the same way that a 15-year old can. And, we've no evidence that Harry *saw* anything relating to Lily's death, actually. <<<<<3. Sirius' Death: Several things bothered me here. The first was the way he died - taunting his cousin. How arrogant is that? Couldn't he have died a more noble death - in the midst of a proper duel, perhaps? The second was that I didn't feel as if we had enough character development on Sirius to warrant Harry's feeling of grief. We weren't introduced to Sirius until the end of PoA, and he only showed up occasionally in GoF. He was in OoP a bit more, but could Harry really develop a close connection to him after only spending a month in the summer and the Christmas holidays with him? And even if I could accept that he and Harry were close, I can't come to grips with why Harry needs more misery in his life.>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, I disagree here, very much so! Yes, I can totally buy that Harry and Sirius were that bonded. He may not have had much page-time in GoF due to his circumstances, but when he is portrayed, he is always portrayed as the concerned parent-figure/godfather. He was there with Harry when Harry first related the events of Voldemort's resurrection to Dumbledore. He's the first person Harry thinks of when he needs advice. No, I think they were very bonded, and it always struck me that, aside from Ron and Hermione, the one person whose death would hurt Harry tragically was Sirius. <<<<5. Inconsistencies/Unanswered Questions: The last time we saw the Maurader's Map in book 4, it was in Barty Crouch Jr.'s possession, but now Harry's got it back with no explanation of how it was returned to him...Percy's prefect badge was silver in SS/PS, but Ron's is gold and scarlet...Sirius mentions Harry's grandparents, but Harry doesn't ask anything about them...Hagrid still can't do magic even though he was cleared in CoS and JKR has said in interviews that he's now allowed to do magic...Voldemort's willingness to spare Lily when he had tried to kill her three previous times and was killing off everyone in the original Order one by one...The Knight Bus picking up the trio from Grimmauld Place after Christmas when Harry originally arrived there in the summer in such great secrecy...Students taking the Hogwarts Express home for Christmas in CoS, but the trio taking the Knight Bus in OoP...No one from the Order guarding the prophecy when the DEs show up at the end...No mention of Halloween whatsoever...Harry going to the trouble of using the fire in Umbridge's office instead of using the 2-way mirror to talk to Sirius...No explanation of why the Order is called "The Order of the Phoenix.">>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, some of these are a problem, yes. Others seem to me to fall into that class of things that *may* get answered later. <<<<<<<<6. Harry's temper: This really took me by surprise. Harry starts the book by taunting Dudley and it just escalates from there. This is so unlike the Harry of the first four books - the Harry that says nothing when Lucius Malfoy tells him in CoS that he'll meet the same sticky end as his parents. Granted, Harry's getting older, but I thought his temperament change was a bit too abrupt to be believable.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, I thought it was completely believable. He's just experienced a traumatic series of events, and anger seems a very likely response. Plus, there's the whole adolescent rebellion thing going on, though that is only a very small part of what I think is going on with Harry. I think the Harry of the previous books is very much still there. I'll try to make some notes on that in my re-read and post them later. He is angry, yes, but it seemed perfectly natural to me. And, I could very much see the same sweet Harry that was always there in this book. <<<<<<<<<<7. Dumbledore-Harry relationship: Dumbledore says he didn't tell Harry about the prophecy because he loved him too much. As with Sirius, I don't see how Harry and Dumbledore have had enough interaction in order for Dumbledore to have developed such a love. Dumbledore "watching" Harry's accomplishments isn't a basis for love, IMO.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've heard people conjecture that Dumbledore is a tawny owl animagus or otherwise has magical means of keeping tabs on things. So, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Dumbledore wasn't observing Harry much more closely than it might appear. I don't think for one minute that those encounters in his office are his only direct observations of Harry as a person. <<<<<<<1. I was happy to see Ron get a bit of glory for once.>>>>>> I was glad to see Ron get some glory and some positive feed-back. <<<<<<<<<2. There's hope for a Harry-Hermione SHIP - Hermione seems to have been monitoring Harry's Cho crush, and Harry exclaims that Hermione isn't ugly. I just hope JKR comes up with someone for Ron...>>>>>>> She has! Luna! :--) Seriously, see my post from last night. I think the H/H ship is in better shape than I would ever have expected from OOP, for the reasons you give plus many others. Of course, I readily and fully concede that other ships are in just as good a shape as H/H, but I'm just thrilled for now that H/H is very much still in the game. :--) <<<<<<<<7. Hermione's patronus is an otter! I'll be doing a separate post on that...>>>>>>>>> I look forward to reading this! You know that Rowling said in an interview that she hoped her patronus/animagus form would be an otter, so I suspect that's just more of Hermione as Rowling's surrogate at work, but I look forward to your thoughts about this. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 03:06:31 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:06:31 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > The second was that I didn't feel as if we had enough character > development on Sirius to warrant Harry's feeling of grief. Be that as it may, we had enough character development or whatever on Sirius for several women on the main list to have cried their eyes out and at least one said she is going to go to her local bereavement support group. From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 05:00:20 2003 From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 01:00:20 -0400 Subject: OOP: First-read Reactions (way too long) References: <012401c338f6$5e017550$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <011b01c33f8d$ac550ee0$9ddc5644@...> I see that perhaps it's still not too late to post my first-read reactions, even though I finished the book last Sunday. Like Neil, I'm still puzzling over the flying brains while everyone else is far ahead into their second and third reads. However, I wanted to post my thoughts (most of which I wrote nearly a week ago) before I begin to reread. (For those who read the main list, this is a longer version of the post I just put up there.) S P O I L E R S P A C E I found myself initially disappointed with OOP. Oddly, one of my sources of dissatisfaction was the number of things I'd predicted correctly, which took away any sense of excitement at the unfolding of events. The things that really touched me about OOP were things I hadn't foreseen -- Neville, for example. I felt cheated by the lack of any significant plot twists, and I was also completely unaffected by Sirius' demise, which I thought likely to happen very early in the book, and who was never a favorite character of mine. I was also really disappointed with the Dept of Mysteries episode; I felt like I was watching a run-of-the-mill action movie -- a genre I despise -- though to JKR's credit, I think the scenes were very vividly rendered. I feel comfortable, though, that this ending will not be repeated; the parallels between the ending of each book and the correspondingly numbered obstacle to the philosopher's stone seemed more apparent than ever this time around. (The fifth, the dead troll, was the only obstacle that Harry did not overcome himself.) This means I'm looking forward very much to book 6, as its numerical correspondence to potion puzzle implies that its ending will be very different and will emphasize the theme of choices. I didn't find the darkness of OOP disturbing. In fact, I thought GoF was a darker book in many ways. It definitely affected me more. I thought some of the clues she tucked in were very intriguing -- such as the fact that Petunia is familiar with Azkaban -- and I was not at all bothered by the fact that she did not follow up on it; after all, we need some fodder for backstory speculation. ;-) Like Monika, I enjoyed reading this particular Dursley episode more than any of the others. On the other hand, I thought a number of things that were irrelevant to the plot were slipped in primarily for the purpose of answering fans' questions -- like why isn't Hermione in Ravenclaw, which is the only one I can think of at the moment. My sense, on first read, was that OOP was more about character, responsibility and mentorship, and less about plot, than the other books. Even though I had predicted where JKR was going with many of the characters, I think this was one of the strengths of OOP overall and something that connected OOP thematically to the prior books. And this is one reason why I believe OOP will improve tremendously on rereading. Each time I go back to look something up, I notice something very revealing that she's tucked in quietly in a way that may easily go unnoticed. Some character observations: Harry -- IMO, it was critical to the story arc for Harry to fail in a significant way. It reminds us that Harry does not march forward inexorably toward his final defeat of Voldemort. He must actively *choose* that course. The vagueness in the wording of the prophecy bears this out. I didn't think Harry's anger came as a surprise; there have been hints of his anger throughout the series that foreshadowed what happened here. As a longtime PACMAN (Perfectly Angelic Characters Make Awful Novels) member, I found that I like Harry a lot better for his human weaknesses than for his superheroism. Hermione -- Hermione was *way* too successful in OOP. She made all the right choices, it seemed, giving her a new Super-Hermione flavor. On the other hand, she was snappish, strident and impatient with others. The only suggestion of failure here is in her campaign to free the house-elves. It failed, but she's still unaware of that fact. She is so successful and displayed such confidence in herself that I believe she must be being set up to fail spectacularly in the next book. We've seen all the other main student characters fail now, and I think her turn is coming. I hope so, because I found her characterization in OOP bordering on Mary Sue-ism (including the not-so-subtle revelation that her Patronus was JKR's favorite animal) and it was hard to take. Ron -- It looks like I correctly predicted his dilemma as a lack of confidence. I think JKR was quite effective here by awarding him responsibilities but letting us readers know that he had not earned either one. Another good bit of juxtaposition to show Ron finally pulling it together once he was completely left to his own devices at the same time Harry was experiencing failure for the first time. Obviously, the best thing that ever happened to him was for Fred and George to leave school, since he was clearly too afraid of incurring their wrath. I think he's on the right path now, but it will take a bit longer for him to catch up. However, I have to ask, why does JKR go so far out of her way to make him look unappealing? The curse of the giggles he was hit with at the MOM was just one more episode in which he's made to look comical, going back at least to the slug-belching in CoS. And I still don't know what to make of the brain attack either. Percy and the Twins -- Like a lot of Percy fans, I was very disappointed that JKR seems to find pomposity to be a big joke and to lampoon him in the way she does, while she lavishes affection on the Twins. I still think they're bullies, and I didn't care for the way they preyed on the unsuspecting first-years. I think the Twins had the same effect on Ron and Percy, and while her development of Ron reflects the negative affect of their antics and charisma on the family dynamic, she's reduced Percy to a cardboard martinet. I'm not convinced JKR laid the groundwork for his alienation adequately, particularly from Molly and Bill, who seemed to be very supportive of him in GoF. Fudge and Umbridge -- I have to consider them together, because my final OOP prediction was for Fudge to turn out to be evil in almost exactly the way that Umbridge turned out to be. I want to reread to get a better sense of the degree of Fudge's awareness and/or involvement in Umbridge's actions, because I sensed that he was very flustered at realizing the failure of his scheme of denial at the end of GoF. I think he was fully aware all along that Voldemort was back, and I think that perhaps the Fudge vs. Dumbledore plot is not over. This would also allow a continuation of the exploration of Percy's alienation and the Weasley family dynamic. Lupin -- I was a bit disappointed that Lupin did not have a greater role, but JKR has done a great job with his character. The fact that he was made a prefect and failed to do anything about squelching James and Sirius' extracurricular activities fits perfectly with what we know about him to date. Luna -- I rather liked her, despite (or perhaps because of) her oddities. In spite of her connection to the WW equivalent of the National Enquirer, her honesty and matter-of-fact attitude about oddities of all kinds is very healthy. I also think JKR used Luna and the Quibbler to make a criticism of the mainstream press -- the Quibbler's reporting was, in fact, more accurate than the Daily Prophet's. I think she has the potential to have a large role in the last 2 books, and her oddities make her well suited to become a junior OOP member. Ginny -- She finally got the development she needed. I think she's been set up as the twins' heir apparent, if not more. Sirius -- I guess I was right about him, too. I said the sage counselor of GoF didn't seem to square with the rest of his character, and it turns out he was just being reckless. I implied that he and James were arrogant and had bullied Snape. I think Sirius' narrative function as a flawed mentor works very well. Snape -- I agree that he didn't get a lot of development here, and nothing I learned about him was a surprise. Again, I think JKR did a masterful job of contrasting Sirius and Snape as flawed mentors, and highlighting through them the lesson Harry has yet to learn about how to discern the strengths and weaknesses of those who would help him. Neville -- I've left him for last. I was totally wrong about Neville; I didn't want to see him kicking DE butt, but JKR pulled it off in a truly wonderful way. I don't know if he will continue in this vein, though. Voldemort's choice of Harry as the subject of the prophecy, the snapping of his dad's wand and his smashing of the prophecy indicates to me that his will be a different course. I agree with the many others who found the most poignant scene in the book to be the one with the wrapper. For me, though, what made the scene was the juxtaposition of Gran's rather babyish treatment of her daughter-in-law and Neville's natural "Thanks, mum." Other Issues Gender -- Penny seemed to think that the gender critics would be happier with this book. Perhaps I'm too exacting, but I wasn't really satisfied. She did demonstrate that there are women in significant Ministry positions, but the only one that gets developed is unrelentingly evil. In fact, she's given us two Evil Women. Molly, OTOH, is shown as the OOP member in charge of the headquarters housecleaning team. And Tonks was rather pointless. Only the male OOP members we met turned out to have a role. The adult women are just too static for my taste. And while we saw both Hermione and Ginny take active roles, they were there to support the hero. At times, I felt that they were primarily out there establishing their shipping credentials to Harry. At some point, I'm going to have to write an essay on this, I think. I guess I'll mention shipping, since it seems to be a popular topic. I thought the H/H shippers would be happy with this one; I *never* expected to see R/H or H/H in OOP. But overall any H/H hints were balanced by Ginny's emergence. Instead of a linear FITD, we have a host of possibilities now, and the possibility of an evenly matched sextet where no combination (except Ron/Ginny, of course!) seems too farfetched. This particularly pleases me, because I have always found shipping Trio members to one another dissatisfying unless the third member was dead. There are all sorts of clues (direct and indirect) now pointing in every direction. For example, what does everyone think of Ginny's snatching the Snitch from Cho? Or is that just my inclination to read metaphor and symbolism into every Quidditch sequence? Debbie who will need to provide grief counseling when hubby finishes the book and discovers that his favorite character is dead [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 14:19:17 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:19:17 -0000 Subject: Augustus vs. Algernon (WAS: OoP: Flints, errors, and other details (LONG) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030628001225.00a91ca0@...> Message-ID: GulPlum (Richard) wrote: > 8. Rookwood's first name. In the GoF Pensieve scene, Crouch refers > to him as "Augustus", whereas the Daily Prophet refers to him in > OoP (p. 480) as "Algernon". The thing is, neither of these sources > have been proved to be exact with their names. In other > words, as the "Augustus" is not in narration, but quoted from the > Prophet, I construe it as just another example of the Prophet's > cavalier attitude to fact-checking. (i.e. it's not a mistake on > JKR's part, but the Prophet's). I just extracted my British copy of OoP from the post office where it was being held pending my return from vacation, and while it refers to Rookwood as "Algernon," the U.S. version refers to him as "Augustus." So I'm guessing that it's the British editor who fell down on the job here rather than the Daily Prophet. ~Phyllis who is in awe of Richard's flint list!! From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 14:47:37 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:47:37 -0000 Subject: Augustus vs. Algernon (WAS: OoP: Flints, errors, and other details (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > I just extracted my British copy of OoP from the post office where > it was being held pending my return from vacation, and while it > refers to Rookwood as "Algernon," the U.S. version refers to him > as "Augustus." So I'm guessing that it's the British editor who > fell down on the job here rather than the Daily Prophet. Yes, my UK copy finally arrived yesterday. (I'm gladder than ever that I elected to buy a US copy after all.) The US editor(s) definitely picked up on the error and corrected it, while the UK editor(s) did not. Which also means that they evidently don't speak to each other. ::sigh:: I think my original idea that JKR's mind was on Neville's Uncle Algie, who is probably properly called Algernon, may have been on the mark. I'm not sure why else she would just pull the name "Algernon" out of the air and use it in place of "Augustus." --Barb, who thinks that if JKR paid proper beta readers enough (she's got the dough) she wouldn't have to worry about security OR Flints... From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 14:54:53 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:54:53 -0000 Subject: OOP: First-read Reactions (way too long) In-Reply-To: <011b01c33f8d$ac550ee0$9ddc5644@...> Message-ID: Debbie (elfundeb) wrote: > I found myself initially disappointed with OOP. Oddly, one of my > sources of dissatisfaction was the number of things I'd predicted > correctly, which took away any sense of excitement at the unfolding > of events. Oh, I agree completely. I read the first four books before I joined HPfGU and started analyzing and theorizing, and I was wondering whether I inadvertently denied myself the pleasure of discovery in OoP by working a lot of the plot points out ahead of time. Oh, well... Debbie: > I feel comfortable, though, that this ending will not be repeated; > the parallels between the ending of each book and the > correspondingly numbered obstacle to the philosopher's stone seemed > more apparent than ever this time around. Great idea - I've never made that connection before! Debbie: > I didn't find the darkness of OOP disturbing. In fact, I thought > GoF was a darker book in many ways. Once again, I completely agree, and am at a loss to explain why OoP is being referred to so often in the media as a darker book. IMO, what made GoF a darker book was the extent of our exposure to Voldemort, the lengths he went to do obtain Harry's blood for his recorporation potion and how close to death Harry was in the graveyard. Voldemort only makes a brief appearance at the end of OoP and Harry is hit with the AK out of nowhere - there was not as much Harry-Voldemort lead-up like there was in GoF to get our hearts racing. Debbie: > However, I have to ask, why does JKR go so far out of her way to > make him [Ron] look unappealing? Not to mention the spattergroit - how insulting was that??? Debbie: > Fudge and Umbridge -- I have to consider them together, because my > final OOP prediction was for Fudge to turn out to be evil in almost > exactly the way that Umbridge turned out to be. I think he > [Fudge] was fully aware all along that Voldemort was back, and I > think that perhaps the Fudge vs. Dumbledore plot is not over. I've never believed in FIE, and after reading OoP I was even more convinced that Fudge was acting out of fear of losing his Minister position rather than because he's ESE or under Voldemort's control. However, I see Umbridge as being more complicated. Here's a woman who sends dementors after Harry and who forces students to carve words into their own skin during detentions. The fact that she sent the dementors after Harry actually leads me to believe that she *isn't* a Voldemort supporter, because it's clear that Voldemort wants to kill Harry personally. Also, as a Ministry employee, she could have cleared the way for Voldy to get the prophecy from the Department of Mysteries. However, I found the use of the skin- cutting pen very intriguing - given the great lengths to which Voldemort went through to obtain Harry's blood in GoF, as I read the detention scene in OoP, I was wondering whether the pen could perhaps store Harry's blood and would somehow be instrumental to the Dark Side in the future. ~Phyllis From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 17:34:16 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:34:16 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] OOP: Disappointing (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:52:45 -0000, "Phyllis" wrote: >2. The Thestrals: When we first learn that the only people who >can see thestrals are those that can see death, I immediately started >to wonder why Harry can only see them after Cedric's death when he >saw his Mum die as a baby. I disagree. I actually bought the explanation Rowling gave at the Royal Albert Hall, particularly because I never believed he saw his Mum die as a baby. Granted, he heard her screaming and pleading with Voldemort when he came near the Dementors in PoA, but this doesn't mean he actually saw him murder her. The green light he sees in his dreams is IMHO the green light of the failed AK curse Voldemort used on Harry himself, the one that rebounded. He should have a memory of that, but not necessarily of seeing Voldemort murder James and/or Lily. >3. Sirius' Death: Several things bothered me here. The first >was the way he died taunting his cousin. How arrogant is that? >Couldn't he have died a more noble death in the midst of a proper >duel, perhaps? Well, I still think it *was* a proper duel, no matter what, but maybe I read a different book. ;-) As for taunting his cousin, well... it was in character. Maybe not something a saintly man might have done, but try to put yourself at his place. Ever since my first read of PoA three years ago I have been trying to get into his head, because I thought (and still think) he is one of Rowling's most interesting and most complex characters. What we learned about him in OoP just confirmed me in this opinion. The Sirius we saw in OoP was in many ways very similar to the one we saw (or better *not* saw because he was only present as a shadow in the background) in PoA. Depressed and mentally unstable, prone to violent and ill-considered reactions. She did it so obviously in this book. She put him into another prison by locking him up in the nightmare of his childhood and youth; I didn't like it too much she was torturing him again, but since she chose to do so, I was glad she went along with the repercussions that would have on him. I had a very bad feeling about it all while reading, because it looked too much as if she was setting up his demise (and she actually did). He had a bit of a reprieve in GoF, and I am sad to say that living in that cave must have been a better life for him than living in his parents' house, at least he had a bit of freedom there, even if he was hunted and starving. At Grimmauld Place, depression prevented him from even recovering physically, at least it was my impression that he didn't look any better when he died than he had a year before. >The second was that I didn't feel as if we had enough >character development on Sirius to warrant Harry's feeling of grief. Well, there was enough character development to warrant *my* feeling of grief, so I think there must have been enough for Harry, too. As for the bond between those two, I totally agree with what Penny has already said. I would add that Harry *wanted* to love Sirius, he was desperate for a parent figure, so it was enough for him that Sirius was his parents' best friend. Understandable from a 13 year old who grew up without love like Harry did, and however flawed Sirius was, it didn't prevent him from bonding with him and truly love him. >6. Harry's Temper: This really took me by surprise. Harry >starts the book by taunting Dudley and it just escalates from there. >This is so unlike the Harry of the first four books the Harry that >says nothing when Lucius Malfoy tells him in CoS that he'll meet the >same sticky end as his parents. Granted, Harry's getting older, but >I thought his temperament change was a bit too abrupt to be >believable. This was actually one thing I loved about OoP. It was time for Harry to become angry at last. Then there's the fact that he's now 15, he's a teenager and no longer a child. It's hormones, the realization that his life has been so miserable until now, the shock about what happened at the end of GoF, and at the end of OoP the shock about the death of the most important person in his life (yes, I think Sirius actually was more important to him than Ron and Hermione, being the only "parent" he ever knew). I certainly had no problem with him trying to curse Bellatrix or wrecking Dumbledore's office. He would have been a saint if he hadn't felt anger, grief and a desire for revenge. He's no longer the subdued child he once was, and I think it's a very good thing. Monika who just had to defend Sirius (and Harry) a bit From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 17:34:17 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:34:17 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: OOP: The tragedy of Petunia Dursley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:09:05 -0000, "psychic_serpent" wrote: >So why should they treat the boys so differently if they were trying >to squash the magic out of both of them? I think the logical answer >would have to be that they're not-- Agreed. It would be highly unlikely that they would use so utterly different methods to reach the same goal. >McGonagall tells Dumbledore, in PS, before Harry is left with the >Dursleys, that Dudley was kicking his mother earlier that day. >(Wasn't he a one-year-old at the time?) He was fifteen months old, so he could very well have been walking (and kicking) his mother. Or wasn't this your point? >Oh, I think I have a couple of pretty good candidates for what >Dudley might have been reliving when he was approached by the >dementor, although I think it's a toss-up between the time Hagrid >gave him a pig's tail and the Ton-Tongue-Toffee incident. Although >you never know with Dudley--it could have been that he was reliving >the moment on his eleventh birthday when his Knickerbocker Glory >wasn't up to his usual standards. Maybe, but I don't think so. ;-) Maybe he isn't the king at Smeltings, maybe the students aren't the only ones equipped with sticks... Or maybe you're right and it's just his diet that was so traumatic for him that the Dementors made him relive it. >Maybe it's just me, but I don't see much difference between the >scariness of the phrases, "Dudley with a magic wand" and "Dudley >with an armed nuclear device." Lol. You're absolutely right, but every wizard (if he isn't ostracized) has a wand, and it's much more difficult to obtain a nuclear device in the Muggle world. > I think it might be Petunia as well, >which would make it even more unlikely that she'd attended Hogwarts >and was expelled, but now that Arabella Figg has been introduced as >a Squib, she might be the dark horse candidate here. Did JKR use >the feminine pronoun, "her" to describe this person? I think so, but I don't remember exactly, so I wouldn't put my hand into the fire for it. Arabella could very well be the one. > Otherwise, >Filch might also a possible late-magic-bloomer. ::shudder:: > >--Barb, who thinks "Filch with a magic wand" is as scary an idea >as "Filch with a Bazooka" Oh no! She wouldn't do this to us, but then, maybe she will. JKR has surprised me way too often. Monika From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 19:40:56 2003 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:40:56 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Also posted to HPfGU] Just my reactions to Phyllis's post...I didn't find the book disappointing at all. Challenging, yes, difficult in places, but not disappointing. Forgive me if some of these points have already been made. >>And we keep hearing that Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort was ever afraid of (other than Harry, of course!), so it doesn't seem as if any member of the Order other than Dumbledore could have kept a disguised Voldy out of the prophecy room.<< This is explained. Voldemort thinks that Harry knows about the prophecy. He knows that Harry detected his presence when he invaded the prophecy room. He doesn't go back because he's afraid he'll be detected by Harry and attacked by the aurors or Dumbledore. We're told repeatedly that Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort fears. OTOH, Voldemort himself expresses many other fears in GoF: fear of dying, fear that the aurors or the Ministry will search him out, fear that Pettigrew will desert him. We see the Ministry as a gaggle of ignorant, incompetent, power-hungry quill-pushers who can't tell their posteriors from a post owl, but to Voldemort they represent another power he has never understood, the power of rightful authority. Voldemort tried vainly for years to dislodge Dumbledore from Hogwarts. The Ministry did it with the stroke of a pen. Hmmm...love and authority -- maybe the power in the locked room is ... God? >>Sirius' Death: Several things bothered me here. The first was the way he died ? taunting his cousin. How arrogant is that? Couldn't he have died a more noble death ? in the midst of a proper duel, perhaps?<< Sirius passed up his chance to confront Voldemort when he chose not to be secret-keeper. He was always arrogant. He had many good qualities, but humility wasn't one of them. Repeatedly he claims to know what's best because he's master of the house and Harry's godfather, asserting his judgements based on his position rather than knowledge or experience. >>The second was that I didn't feel as if we had enough character development on Sirius to warrant Harry's feeling of grief. << You're kidding! Half the fandom's in tears, and yet all they saw of Sirius was Harry's PoV..why shouldn't he be as torn up as the readers are? Sirius was the first and only person to offer Harry a home away from the Durselys; of course Harry took to him. Love at first sight doesn't only happen between couples, you know. >>And even if I could accept that he and Harry were close, I can't come to grips with why Harry needs more misery in his life.<< Actually, Harry has most of his old miseries pretty well sorted. He's recovering from the graveyard...he dreams of it less and less as the book goes on. He knows now that his suffering wasn't pointless and that makes it easier to bear. He's found something he likes to do besides play Quidditch. The wizarding world has decided he's not crazy and Dumbledore has finally decided to let him in on what's going on. He's got at least a fighting chance against Voldemort (which is more than anybody else has.) As for Harry's other antagonists, he's got a handle on Snape, the Dursleys are intimidated, Draco's hostility has become a joke, and Lucius is in the pokey. >> The Prophecy: We had already pretty much figured this out ? the only twist for me was that it could have been Neville. I think I expected JKR to come up with something more clever than what I had already concluded. And Voldy already seems determined to personally kill Harry ? what would he really gain by hearing the rest of the prophecy?<< This was explained- Voldemort thinks the rest of the prophecy contains information he needs to destroy Harry. After being defeated three times, he wasn't about to go after Harry again until he'd found out, so Harry was safe as long as Voldemort thought he had a chance of finding out what the prophecy said. If he had the entire Prophecy Voldemort would also have learned that: Dumbledore can't kill him The good guys don't know how to destroy him If Voldemort doesn't destroy the "one," the "one" is fated to destroy him. The last might prompt Voldemort to arrange that if he goes down, the rest of the WW will go with him. All sound reasons for Dumbledore to want the prophecy hidden, IMO. >>Inconsistencies/Unanswered questions<< I am wondering if people who expected OOP to have all the answers read the first four books in one swell foop, not noticing how many loose ends were left from volume to volume. The big loose end from PS/SS was of course why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry. I believe that's been answered now. We still don't know why he offered to spare Lily, so we can't say the suspense is over. There were loose ends at the end of CoS, like what will be done with Gryffindor's sword and what happened to Lockhart. There were plenty of loose ends after PoA, some of which didn't get tied up until OOP, like what was the first Prophecy and how the heck does Fidelius work. There's also the limits of Harry's point of view. He's a brilliant tactician but not much of a strategic thinker. IMO, it would be out of character for him to analyze Voldemort's strategies or ask penetrating questions about them. Besides, knowing too much about what Voldemort is planning would kill the suspense. The downside is that the explanations seem to be afterthoughts when we finally get them...and we do, eventually, IMO. For example, I think we have enough canon now to sort out the "toothbrush" problem, but that's another post. >> Harry's Temper: This really took me by surprise. Harry starts the book by taunting Dudley and it just escalates from there. This is so unlike the Harry of the first four books ? the Harry that says nothing when Lucius Malfoy tells him in CoS that he'll meet the same sticky end as his parents. Granted, Harry's getting older, but I thought his temperament change was a bit too abrupt to be believable.<< Harry didn't get angry at Lucius because Lucius didn't hurt him...Harry knows full well a sneer from him is a compliment. Harry was plenty angry in GoF; at Ron, at Cedric, at Voldemort and at Snape. Harry was just as angry in POA as he was in OOP and really far more beastly to Hermione. *We* didn't see her suffer as much because Harry was too much of a git to notice. He also blew up his aunt, punched Sirius and threw Snape against a wall. We're more aware of the effects of his anger in OOP because the book is longer, and because Harry himself is aware that he's taking things out on people and hurting them. That's actually an positive development in his character, IMO. At least he's aware of his angry feelings now and using words instead of violence and rejection. He was wrong to try to crucio Bella, but how was that worse than blowing up his aunt or punching Sirius? >>Dumbledore-Harry Relationship: Dumbledore says he didn't tell Harry about the prophecy because he loved him too much. As with Sirius, I don't see how Harry and Dumbledore have had enough interaction in order for Dumbledore to have developed such a love. Dumbledore "watching" Harry's accomplishments isn't a basis for love, IMO. << -- See what I said about love at first sight, above. Also Dumbledore must have felt horribly guilty for having left Harry to grow up in such a loveless place. Naturally he would try to make up for it. From what he says, he never had a family of his own and his paternal emotions took him by surprise. >>No Tricks:<< Oh, I don't know about that. Look at the not-so-rock-solid predictions list over at HPfGU. Very few of us got anything right. Did you *know* Sirius was going to be the one to die? I didn't. There were hints all over the place, starting with PoA and the book that Harry sees at Flourish and Blott's. "What to do when you know the worst is coming" with a big black dog on the cover. Which is Black humor Here's three hints from OOP to start off the list. LOONs? 1)the Dementors made the stars go out (ch.1) 2) There were thirteen at dinner with the Weasleys at Grimmauld Place. Ginny leaves the table, but gets down on the floor. The first to "rise" is Sirius.(ch. 5) 3)Sirius says he's not sure he'll be accepting the Ministry's apology for denying Voldemort's return.(ch. 9) Moi,I think the trickery quotient is way up there. And that's without mentioning ESE Lupin. Pippin From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 1 21:42:57 2003 From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:42:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: First-read Reactions (way too long-er!) In-Reply-To: <011b01c33f8d$ac550ee0$9ddc5644@...> Message-ID: I'm doing a lot of hurry-up-and-wait at work today, so I'm enjoying everybody's thoughts, and Deb, your reactions have got me thinking about a bunch of things. Bear with me, this is probably at least as long as your initial post. --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "elfundeb" wrote: > I see that perhaps it's still not too late to post my first-read reactions, even though I finished the book last Sunday> > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > I was also really disappointed with the Dept of Mysteries >episode; I felt like I was watching a run-of-the-mill action movie -- > a genre I despise -- though to JKR's credit, I think the scenes >were very vividly rendered. There were definitely elements of this, in my mind, but it was a uniquely JKR bunch of action. The bits in the time room, especially, injected a slightly twisted absurdity into the proceedings. I can't think of another author who's ever managed to make me laugh and cringe simultaneously right in the middle of a sequence that had me so tense and emotional that I was white-knuckling the book. I give her props for that, even if the graveyard scene in GoF was far darker and more heart thumping. > > I feel comfortable, though, that this ending will not be >repeated; the parallels between the ending of each book and the >correspondingly numbered obstacle to the philosopher's stone seemed >more apparent than ever this time around. (The fifth, the dead >troll, was the only obstacle that Harry did not overcome himself.) >This means I'm looking forward very much to book 6, as its numerical >correspondence to potion puzzle implies that its ending will be very >different and will emphasize the theme of choices. That is a very cool theory you've got going, and I really hope you're right, because it's that theme that has me so enthralled. I don't supposed I can say that the struggle of Good vs Evil gets old, really, but it's her spin on it that makes these books so precious to me - the importance of personal choices as well as the rejection of the idea of futility. There's something so existentially quixotic in her heroes that draws me to them. That's why the prophecy bothered me - the way it seemed to negate Harry's choices, especially in his own mind, where now he's either murderer or victim. I always cringed when I would read posts in the past talking about Harry killing Voldemort. I certainly wanted him to defeat him, but Voldy's just the current enemy, just one battle. The ultimate enemy is Evil, and turning Harry into a killer defeats Harry, not Evil. So I'm putting my trust in JKR and crossing my fingers that there is another way that just needs finding, and your prediction for the next book definitely makes me feel better. > My sense, on first read, was that OOP was more about >character, responsibility and mentorship, and less about plot, than >the other books. > Harry -- IMO, it was critical to the story arc for Harry to fail in >a significant way. It reminds us that Harry does not march forward >inexorably toward his final defeat of Voldemort. He must actively >*choose* that course. The vagueness in the wording of the prophecy >bears this out. I didn't think Harry's anger came as a surprise; >there have been hints of his anger throughout the series that >foreshadowed what happened here. As a longtime PACMAN (Perfectly >Angelic Characters Make Awful Novels) member, I found that I like >Harry a lot better for his human weaknesses than for his >superheroism. I definitely agree with you. I think this was a transitional book, and it was time for Harry to be making transitions as well. This is the book where Harry has to give up being a child (who never got to have a proper childhood - *sniff*) who relies on grownups to know the answers, and start looking at things clearly for himself. I don't think the disillusionment charm shows up at this point and with that name by accident. He's growing up, and he has to look more objectively at his mentors and himself. He has to see that Dumbeldore fails and that his father wasn't perfect. And if he's to make good decisions himself in the future he has to see that Sirius, while he was one of the good guys and he did love him, had his own problems that ended up hurting both himself and the cause. No wonder he's angry and frustrated throughout the book. It sucks enough to go through adolescence for your average kid, and unfortunately Harry's never had the luxury of being average. I think in retrospect that this is why we saw the jealous and angry side of Ron in GoF, as a sort of mirror of Harry's struggles here. We've all been through the kinds of struggles that Ron has, but Harry's struggles are unique because of who he is and what he's been through. If Ron can doubt his best friend and act like an ass through much of GoF, it's not hard to accept that Harry, who has had such a tendency to suppress his emotions, would find himself destroying Dumbledore's office when the the dam finally burst. Harry may still be in the midst of these struggles at this point, but just as we saw Ron slowly work his way toward self-acceptance in this book, we'll see Harry come to terms with his biggest problems (communication and self-expression, his issues with Snape come to mind as examples) and come into his own in the next. I expected it to be Dumbledore's death that set this off, and for this book to be less about adolescent angst, but I credit JKR for doing something so realistic, even if it's difficult to read at times. > Hermione -- Hermione was *way* too successful in OOP. She made all >the right choices, it seemed, giving her a new Super-Hermione >flavor. On the other hand, she was snappish, strident and impatient >with others. The only suggestion of failure here is in her campaign >to free the house-elves. It failed, but she's still unaware of that >fact. She is so successful and displayed such confidence in >herself that I believe she must be being set up to fail >spectacularly in the next book. We've seen all the other main >student characters fail now, and I think her turn is coming. I hope >so, because I found her characterization in OOP bordering on Mary >Sue-ism (including the not-so-subtle revelation that her Patronus >was JKR's favorite animal) and it was hard to take. I don't know that this book was all that different for Hermione. I've always found it difficult to relate well to her simply because she's so... good at everything. I'm sure, though, that there's humanization in store for our girl, and the house elf thing will probably fit in well there. On another note, I was a little nonplussed by her otter patronus on first reading, as personality- wise she doesn't seem very otterlike. But when I considered Harry's stag, I guess the form your patronus takes isn't really about your own personality. I would be interested to learn if Hermione's father's got a playful streak or an affinity for water or something. > Ron -- Obviously, the best thing that ever happened >to him was for Fred and George to leave school, since he was clearly >too afraid of incurring their wrath. I guess this is more aboug Fred and George than about Ron, but... wrath? Fred and George? If you mean incurring their ribbing, I can see that, but I've never seen any signs of wrath in these two. I know many see them as bullies, and even if I try to look at them from that perspective, they're more thoughtless than wrathful. They like to tease, but even Harry, in thinking about Snape's memory of his father, reflects that Fred and George would never do something like that unless it was well earned. And we've seen them provoked, quite recently. When Malfoy went after them at the end of the quidditch match, they reacted in the same way Harry did ? nothing more. I don't think Ron fears their wrath. I think he fears not living up to their image, and I think he looks up to them and thus fears them being disappointed in him and/or thinking him uncool. I think he simply psyched himself out in their presence because they're the reminder of all he has to live up to. > I think he's on the right path now, but it will take a bit >longer for him to catch up. However, I have to ask, why does JKR go >so far out of her way to make him look unappealing? The curse of >the giggles he was hit with at the MOM was just one more episode in >which he's made to look comical, going back at least to the slug- >belching in CoS. And I still don't know what to make of the brain >attack either. That bugs me, too, since I love Ron so much. He (and previously sweet Neville, who seems to be escaping it some now) does seem to get the brunt of the absurd and degrading in these books. Maybe JKR picks on him to keep him humble, or maybe she's just teasing her friend on whom Ron is based. As for the brain attack, it left me scratching my head as well. Surely it must have some significance. I liked Pomfrey's line about them ? something about those being the hardest scars to heal - thought that was cute, but surely they can't have been just a set up for that little joke. I wonder whose brains they were? Maybe it was Einstein's brain that got him (he had to have been a wizard, right?), and Ron will have gotten some knowledge or power from it. > Percy and the Twins -- Like a lot of Percy fans, I was very >disappointed that JKR seems to find pomposity to be a big joke and >to lampoon him in the way she does, while she lavishes affection on >the Twins. I still think they're bullies, and I didn't care for the >way they preyed on the unsuspecting first-years. I think the Twins >had the same effect on Ron and Percy, and while her development of >Ron reflects the negative affect of their antics and charisma on the >family dynamic, she's reduced Percy to a cardboard martinet. Unfortunately, it looks like that's just what Percy is at this point in the story (on a side note - who doesn't consider pomposity to be a joke?). I was disappointed too, that Percy didn't come around on his own, but I'm of two minds on the subject. On the one hand, I want it to be explainable - Imperius Curse, perhaps. On the other hand, I think maybe Percy is meant to be an example to us. Fudge is one thing, but Percy's someone we've seen up close and fairly personal. JKR clearly considers it important to keep in mind that in the real world, it doesn't just come down to good guys and bad guys, and I think Percy's story is an important one. Some people, when it comes down to it, fail to look beyond authority to find the truth of right and wrong for themselves. There are shades of grey on all sides now, from Wormtail's feeble loyalty to Voldemort and possible link to Harry, to Phineas Nigellus, who does Dumbledore's bidding in spite of his own attitiudes (whether by choice or magical contract), to Mundungus Fletcher to Bellatrix Lestrange to Fudge to Umbridge to Percy to Snape... JKR's world is rich enough that I think I've just now convinced myself that Imperius was not involved, and that Percy is just one of the many facets of light and dark that she's showing us. > I'm not convinced JKR laid the groundwork for his alienation >adequately, particularly from Molly and Bill, who seemed to be very >supportive of him in GoF. See, I thought that's what made it so tragic and beautiful. In spite of having all the love of his family ? particularly his mother, who has doted on and defended him all along ? Percy doesn't believe in them. It's pride that's made him ridiculous in the past, and it's pride that makes him choose as he does here (if, of course, it's not magical coercion). I didn't have any problem believing it. > Lupin -- I was a bit disappointed that Lupin did not have a >greater role, but JKR has done a great job with his character. The >fact that he was made a prefect and failed to do anything about >squelching James and Sirius' extracurricular activities fits >perfectly with what we know about him to date. I was more on the side of seriously peeved that there wasn't more Lupin in OoP, which might be why I can't warm up to Tonks, who usurped unearned page time from my Remus. But I agree that that characterization was pretty spot on. I also noticed the similarity of this to Ron's behavior as a prefect so far. Hopefully, as Harry has to grow above and beyond what the previous generation managed, Ron will do the same. I was disappointed in Lupin, but I can't help but cut him more slack than his buddies, and understand why he would be reluctant to step in under his particular circumstances. > Luna -- I rather liked her, despite (or perhaps because of) her >oddities. In spite of her connection to the WW equivalent of the >National Enquirer, her honesty and matter-of-fact attitude about >oddities of all kinds is very healthy. I also think JKR used Luna >and the Quibbler to make a criticism of the mainstream press -- the >Quibbler's reporting was, in fact, more accurate than the Daily >Prophet's. I think she has the potential to have a large role in >the last 2 books, and her oddities make her well suited to become a >junior OOP member. I quite liked her after the initial shock of her showing up out of the blue. I think she serves an important purpose for Harry, at least. Her matter-of-factness about feelings, even more than about the unexplainable, is something Harry hasn't fully experienced before. Luna takes things and people as they are. Her comments about the disappearance of her belongings and her complete comfort with discussing it are a complete departure from what Harry has seen before. Her understanding about the thestrals allows him to feel less alone in his misery, and her unhesitating acceptance of him and his story helps give him the courage both to give the interview and to start up with the DA thing. I almost see her as a bridge between Harry and Neville, with whom Harry has never really discussed any of the things they share in common, since both have been too busy bravely suffering in silence. Hopefully now that Harry's begun (spectacularly) to express his feelings, Luna will be able to help them explore their link to each other, if only by her example of being so open about things. I can't wait to see more of Neville and what's to become of him. Seeing him at St. Mungo's was so touching, and when he stood up to Bellatrix Lestrange... sniff! - that was beautiful. His gran doesn't deserve him. From klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 02:24:50 2003 From: klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid (klmsign99) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:24:50 -0000 Subject: OOP: Disappointing (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 6. Harry's Temper: This really took me by surprise. Harry > starts the book by taunting Dudley and it just escalates from there. > This is so unlike the Harry of the first four books ? the Harry that > says nothing when Lucius Malfoy tells him in CoS that he'll meet the > same sticky end as his parents. Granted, Harry's getting older, but > I thought his temperament change was a bit too abrupt to be > believable. I'm going to defend Harry's temper. I actually think it was very believable for several reasons. 1. He's 15. I think anyone who is around that age group or raising them would agree it can be an interesting age. 2. He spent the entire 4th book being ridiculed and facing extreme stress with the tournament. Then Cedrics death. Over the summer he is just pushed off to the Dursley's again.. and no one is there to help him through the grieving process. He not only feels sorrow at the death, but guilt. 3. Over the summer he continually is on the alert for new information and is consistently not getting any. He is perpeptually waiting for the bottom to drop out, and when the dementors arrive, he is treated as the criminal. And still he is kept out of the loop for information. 4. Once he is at school everything that was consistent for him (being good a DADA and Dumbledore) have all disappeared. He no longer can get the support he had. Every move is being watched and he knows that Umbridge is trying her hardest to expel Harry or at least strip away everything he knows and loves. 5. The death of Sirius. Which in and of itself is reason to be upset, but I think he tears apart Dumbledore's office for a specific reason. Yes, he is upset with Dumbledore for keeping the truth from him, etc. But I also think Harry is feeling an extreme amount of guilt. Even though it wasn't explicitly written, I assume that Harry is feeling a tremendous amount of guilt for being tricked into taking 5 others into danger into the Ministry. He knows that Sirius would not have died if he wouldn't have gone and listened to Hermione's advice. I think all things considered he kept everything bottled up and he's just now showing it all. I think it was very in character even though it seemed abrupt. It doesn't mean that at times I wasn't disappointed in his behavior, but I did understand it. Hope I didn't repeat what's already been said... If I did, forgive the newbie! Kris From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 03:27:10 2003 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:27:10 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] OOP: First-read Reactions (way too long) References: <012401c338f6$5e017550$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <011b01c33f8d$ac550ee0$9ddc5644@...> Message-ID: <003701c34049$d2ce94d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi all -- Lots of great discussion today and here I am with *no* time. Oh well. Some things must be responded to though........ <<<<>>>> I liked having these details mixed in, and you should too, because now they are *canon* in a way that wouldn't be true if she just gave an interview response. Right? There's also the "Harry thinks Hermione is ugly" myth propagated by certain segments of the R/H ship which was blasted to smithereens with a point-on contradiction. I *love* it! :--) Seriously, I did love those little details. I loved finding complete confirmation that Harry's name is *just Harry*! Do you hear me, Lori? [sorry, private joke which Heidi and Carole will understand] <<<<>>>>>>>>>> *nods* Yes, definitely. I also agree with all the reasons that Kris listed out for Harry's anger. I'm finding on re-read and listening to the audio that the "sweet Harry" really is still lurking underneath; more so than I got from my first impression. <<<>>>>>>>>> Hermione *too* successful? Is that possible? Interesting. You thought she was Super!Hermione; I thought she really came into her own. By contrast, I thought Ginny was suddenly and unbelievably transformed from whining fan-girl to Super!Ginny of Fanon-like Fame. I found Ginny's characterization much harder to take on re-read too, I must say. I initially thought, "Okay, I must retract what I've said about Ginny; I like her now" (though even then, I reserved judgment about whether her transformation was completely believable). I'm now not so sure I like her as much as I thought I did, though I certainly like her much better than I did pre-OOP. But, I'll still say that JKR failed miserably with her characterization in pre-OOP days. It seems she fell back on the rather lame (IMO) excuse that Ginny had previously not had a personality b/c of Harry-induced shyness. Hmmmmm. Okay.......well.........eh..........not so sure I buy that entirely, Jo, but all right. Back to Hermione though: I remember her being more snappish and impatient with Ron primarily ..... but I can't recall that being the case with other characters. Do you remember instances off-hand where she was a pain-in-the-butt with people other than Ron? IMHO, it *could be* that Ron and Hermione's arguments became more clearly *arguments* (and less like bickering or "bantering"), which might make Hermione *appear* more snappish than in previous books. IOW, if Rowling meant to emphasize the nature of their interactions into more true arguments than before, that might have colored your perspective of Hermione, right? <<<<<>>>>>>> Agree with the above entirely. <<<<<>>>>>>>> See above. <<<<<>>>>>>>>> But ........ BUT.........BUT.........sputters in indignation...........BUT what about McGonagall?!!! I *loved* her in OoP (I loved her *before* OOP too). She got some great development. She has gumption; she has backbone. She's *important*! And, she's human too. I've always known she was a softie at heart, but you really see her displaying more of that in this one. "Potter, if I have to work with you every single evening, I will make sure you qualify for Auror studies" (paraphrase). I loved her. Loved her to pieces. :::::screams::::::: And, I liked Tonks. I don't think we saw enough of her to make a judgment about her role in the Order or anything, but I liked her quite alot and look forward to seeing her again. And, Hermione was right about everything. I realize that plays into your Hermione is too Mary Sue-ish issues, but the fact remains that Harry may end up resenting the fact that had he listened to Hermione, Sirius would doubtless still be alive. I worry about how that bit of introspective realization may affect Harry's relationship with Hermione in Book 6. <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> *nods again* Yes, definitely an open playing field. RE: Ginny snatching the snitch from under Cho's nose? Well, I did grimace. BUT, there's also the scene where Cho morphs into Hermione in Harry's memory. There's almost a perfect counter-argument to virtually all the shipping "clues, symbolism," etc. It's great. It's terrific. Color me delighted. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 04:10:00 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Names / keeping secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030702041000.61569.qmail@...> Predictions of things to come... House Elves can blast wizards (such as Lucius Malfoy) with the greatest of ease. Their power is natural but mostly untapped due to their belief that they are inferior to wizards. This is similar to the personality of Neville Longbottom. He is going to be a major character in books 6 and 7. House elves will somehow finally get the message that the bad guys are going to win if they don't help the good guys. Dobby would not keep showing up in these books if house elves are only there for comic relief. Dobby is constantly helping Harry in each book. Dobby is important because he will lead the "Second Great Elf Rebellion" He is related to the Elf that led the first one just like Tom Riddle is related to Slytherin and Harry is related to Gryffindor. Giants will return to battle in the future because they are mentioned in Book 5. The puns that JKR keep using are very interesting. I think this book has a sleeping Giant and a lady who gets carried away. If Voldemorte is analogous to Hitler as some have suggested, and Dumbledore is analogous to Churchill. Could the sleeping Giant be analogous to America in World War II ? Continuing this line of thought...Who represents the Japanese and the Italians? I think the Centaurs might be the Swiss who remain neutral and think they are just above the whole thing...Or are the Goblins really the Swiss because they control all the money... Someone mentioned that the challenges that Harry faced in Book One are analogous to the six books that follow in the series. Could someone elaborate on this because I have missing about the last 150,000 messages on the HP4GUPs list due to interference from the non-wizard world. I tend to read this post list exclusively due to my lack of time on the internet. Essentially, my wife has blocked my access to the fireplace and stolen all of my portkeys of late. I was reading Lord of the Rings to my son last year and I saw the first two movies and remembered the books that I read 30 years ago. I could see the allusions to World War II throughout Lord of the Rings. I also see the use of characters from LOTR in JKR's masterpiece. Wormtail or Dobby could be...Gollum. Harry is obviously Frodo and Ron is Samwise. Lucius is Saruman (because he helps the Dark Lord) and Sirius is Boromir (sp?) Dumbledore is Gandalf and Hagrid is Gimli. Have I pissed anyone off yet with all of the analogies? The bottom line is that in the Lord of the Rings all of the races finally unite to defeat the forces of Mordor. I am sure that all of the races (Giants, elves, centaurs...) will get together in Book 7 to defeat Voldemorte and his bad guys in one big epic battle. The analogy to WWII would be complete. I just thought I would stir up the pot. I think every great writer borrows from other great writers. OK guys and gals.... Somebody let me have it! You all have read these books 1500 times and I have only read them twice. So teach me a lesson or two!! I double dare you....;0) Red Eye Randy --- Neil Ward wrote: > n > o > t > r > e > a > l > l > y > s > p > o > i > l > i > n > g > Thinking on names, I particularly liked Dolores Jane > Umbridge, which has the > same sort of nominative determinism as Remus Lupin: > > Dolores is Spanish for pain/sorrow, umbrage (cf. > Umbridge) means > resentment/indignation. I suppose the Jane may be a > reference to her plain > speaking and plain appearance (from "plain Jane") > and not the original > meaning of "God's gracious gift". > > In a moment of boredom, I also came across a note > that Shacklebolt is an > heraldic symbol for "victory in war". > > *** > > I just spoke to a 'Dobby fan' friend of mine who has > started OoP and who > feels that there will be a House Elf uprising and > that Voldemort will > utilise the power of the House Elves in his evil > campaign. Since he'd made > me swear to give nothing away, all I could say was > "there are House Elves in > the book". It's going to take him ages to get to > through it, as he's having > it read to him as a bedtime story (how cute is > that?) Looks like I'll be > bursting to let information slip for months ahead. > > Neil > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From blaise_writer at blaise_42.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 07:26:56 2003 From: blaise_writer at blaise_42.yahoo.invalid (Blaise) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:26:56 -0000 Subject: analogies & non-human races (not very spoilerish) In-Reply-To: <20030702041000.61569.qmail@...> Message-ID: Randy wrote: <> Wormtail has to be Gollum, not Dobby - nothing traitorish about Dobby that I can see. What about Hermione, Aragorn, Merry & Pippin (the twins?). And if you really want analogies to LotR in the 'final battle' then the good guys - even all races conjoined - will LOSE it and only win because of some act by Wormtail (after Harry's mercy to him) that destroys Voldemort. Perhaps Wormtail will do something with his silver hand - bite the hand that feeds him, my pun-brain is saying, but that's not really right. I don't know enough of WW2 history to say anything intelligent about this, except that since LotR is not parallel to WW2, HP can't be parallel to both. Interesting question of where the centaurs stand in all of this. I have visions of them like the dwarves in the battle in The Last Battle (can't remember whether JKR was inspired by Narnia too) attacking both sides indiscriminately because they are only for themselves. If they don't want humans in the Forbidden Forest they could certainly cause problems for the Hogwartians. To consider this question more broadly: I think one of the big things JKR brings into play in OotP is that where all the other races stand will matter hugely. So far they've potentially got one giant on their side and all the others on Voldemort's, one centaur and the others all hostile to everyone, one elf for definite - Dobby - and the rest undeclared except for Kreacher, one werewolf and absolutely no idea about the others, and no idea either about goblins, merpeople (who might be friendly), hags or vampires (unless the Snape-vampire theorists are correct in which case they've got one). So right now, rather than entire races, Dumbledore has single representatives of various races and in many cases it doesn't look like he's going to get any more. I find it hard to imagine a Great House-Elf Rebellion, given the way Hagrid - who is our expert on other species - says they like servitude, but on the other hand Hermione wants it and she tends to be right too. It would certainly be fun. Oh, and I second Randy's request for an explanation of the correspondence between PS and the other six books. In the same vein, does anyone else think the defeat of Voldemort will be like the defeat of Slytherin in the 1st year House Cup - Harry will do the big stuff but Neville will give the coup de grace? Blaise Oh, and a final point about names - according to the OED a shackle- bolt is a part of a handcuff. A good Auror-name. From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 14:58:00 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:58:00 -0000 Subject: Why Voldemort Didn't Retrieve the Prophecy Himself (WAS: OOP: Disappointing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [also posted on HPfGU] I (Phyllis) originally wrote: > And we keep hearing that Dumbledore is the only one > Voldemort was ever afraid of (other than Harry, of course!), so it > doesn't seem as if any member of the Order other than > Dumbledore could have kept a disguised Voldy out of the > prophecy room. and Pippin responded: > This is explained. Voldemort thinks that Harry knows about the > prophecy. He knows that Harry detected his presence when he > invaded the prophecy room. He doesn't go back because he's > afraid he'll be detected by Harry and attacked by the aurors or > Dumbledore. Now me again: On my second read-through, I now understand this. Before Voldemort was aware that he and Harry were sharing thoughts, Voldemort was operating under Avery's inaccurate information that he could send a DE or someone under the Imperius Curse into the prophecy room to steal the prophecy. In Harry's vision, he sees Rookwood informing Voldemort that if anyone other than the person to whom the prophecy relates attempts to take the prophecy from the shelf, he/she will go mad and will be unable to retrieve the prophecy. So Voldemort then has to change course, but at this point he's already aware that Harry can see into his mind, so it's now far too dangerous for Voldemort to attempt to retrieve the prophecy himself. In addition, he now knows that he doesn't have to retrieve it himself - he can lure Harry into retrieving it for him. So this really does hang together, and I retract my original criticism! ~Phyllis who should know better than to doubt Jo From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 15:32:20 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 15:32:20 -0000 Subject: McGonagall Helping Harry and Clumsy Tonks (WAS: OOP: First-read Reactions) In-Reply-To: <003701c34049$d2ce94d0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: Penny wrote: > I've always known she [McGonagall] was a softie at heart, but you > really see her displaying more of that in this one. "Potter, if I > have to work with you every single evening, I will make sure you > qualify for Auror studies" (paraphrase). I loved her. Loved her > to pieces. :::::screams::::::: I loved this, too, but I was disappointed when she didn't follow-up on her promise. Harry went to his O.W.L.s without any extra help from McGonagall, and without top O.W.L. marks in Potions and Transfiguration, both of which she tells him he's not up to snuff in, he wouldn't be able to get the required N.E.W.T.s in order to become an Auror. Granted, Umbridge had passed a decree that said that teachers couldn't talk about anything other than their own subjects, so presumably McGonagall couldn't give Harry extra help in Potions, but there was no mention of Harry receiving extra Transfiguration sessions. And Snape was able to teach him Occlumency after hours under the cover of Remedial Potions, so why couldn't McGonagall have provided Harry with extra help on non-transfiguration subjects under a similar cover? Of course, it might have been easier for Snape since he's apparently in league with Lucius Malfoy (whether as a spy or for real, we don't know) and Umbridge would therefore trust him where she doesn't trust McGonagall. Penny again: > And, I liked Tonks. I don't think we saw enough of her to make a > judgment about her role in the Order or anything, but I liked her > quite alot and look forward to seeing her again. I liked Tonks, too. I think it's because I could really relate to how clumsy she is, because I'm a klutz, too! Also, her clumsiness pointed out that you don't have to be perfect to become an Auror, which I thought was a valuable piece of information for Harry to have. ~Phyllis From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 15:39:14 2003 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:39:14 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] McGonagall Helping Harry and Clumsy Tonks (WAS: OOP: First-read Reactions) References: Message-ID: <01ab01c340b0$17994bd0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- I wrote: > I've always known she [McGonagall] was a softie at heart, but you > really see her displaying more of that in this one. "Potter, if I > have to work with you every single evening, I will make sure you > qualify for Auror studies" (paraphrase). I loved her. Loved her > to pieces. :::::screams::::::: Phyllis: <<<<<>>>>>>>>>> I think this is another case of Harry not following through and not seeking adult help as much as he should. McGonagall made the offer; I think it was really up to Harry to approach her later to see about some extra help. I don't think she was making an empty promise for Umbridge's benefit in other words. But, I don't think she should have been required to press him on the matter. It's *his* career after all. I rather suspect he managed to do what it takes to go forward to NEWT levels in all required Auror-in-training courses. :--) Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 18:11:12 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 18:11:12 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Clarification Requested Message-ID: I just realized that my last few posts had spoilers in the subject line - could I ask for clarification on our spoiler policy? If I've violated it, I would appreciate it if someone could delete my offending posts and I'll re-post them in the correct manner. Many thanks! ~Phyllis From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 18:34:33 2003 From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 18:34:33 -0000 Subject: Why Voldemort Didn't Retrieve the Prophecy Himself (WAS: OOP: Disappointing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > On my second read-through, I now understand this. Before Voldemort > was aware that he and Harry were sharing thoughts, Voldemort was > operating under Avery's inaccurate information that he could send a > DE or someone under the Imperius Curse into the prophecy room to > steal the prophecy. In Harry's vision, he sees Rookwood informing > Voldemort that if anyone other than the person to whom the prophecy > relates attempts to take the prophecy from the shelf, he/she will go > mad and will be unable to retrieve the prophecy. So Voldemort then > has to change course, but at this point he's already aware that Harry > can see into his mind, so it's now far too dangerous for Voldemort to > attempt to retrieve the prophecy himself. In addition, he now knows > that he doesn't have to retrieve it himself - he can lure Harry into > retrieving it for him. So this really does hang together, and I > retract my original criticism! OK, but now I'm wondering... when they accidentally (and then intentionally) knocked the other prophecies off the shelves, they broke, and were... released, I guess is the word. Had V or his minions simply caused the prophecy to fall and break, it seems they would have been able to hear the whole thing. Or am I remembering the scene incorrectly? Please somebody tell me I'm wrong. I'd hate to have to send Voldy to remedial baddie school. Kimberly From blaise_writer at blaise_42.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 18:57:01 2003 From: blaise_writer at blaise_42.yahoo.invalid (Blaise) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 18:57:01 -0000 Subject: OotP: Return of the Numbers Problem Message-ID: S P O I L E R S P A C E Even though it's not a huge spoiler really... I've been doing some counting (and incidentally wondering whether LOON would take me on) and I noticed something. According to Lupin, back during Voldemort's first shot at world domination, the Order was outnumbered by Death Eaters 20 to 1. Now there must have been at least 20 members of the Order then, judging by the names and ages of the current members and the photo Moody shows Harry. So that means at least 400 Death Eaters, perhaps fewer allowing Lupin some leeway for exaggeration - maybe they were really only outnumbered 10 to 1. So my question is, where have they all gone? Only about 20 are mentioned in the books, there weren't anywhere near 400 at the gathering at the end of GoF, and Voldemort only mentions six missing. Presumably some are in Azkaban too, and some killed by Voldemort, like Regulus Black. But still, I can't believe there can be some 350 missing. Is this part of the eternal number-of-wizards problem? A Flint? Or does JKR have something up her sleeve? Blaise From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 19:19:21 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:19:21 -0000 Subject: OotP: Return of the Numbers Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Blaise" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > Even though it's not a huge spoiler really... I've been doing some > counting (and incidentally wondering whether LOON would take me on) > and I noticed something. According to Lupin, back during Voldemort's > first shot at world domination, the Order was outnumbered by Death > Eaters 20 to 1. Now there must have been at least 20 members of the > Order then, judging by the names and ages of the current members and > the photo Moody shows Harry. So that means at least 400 Death Eaters, > perhaps fewer allowing Lupin some leeway for exaggeration - maybe > they were really only outnumbered 10 to 1. So my question is, where > have they all gone? Only about 20 are mentioned in the books, there > weren't anywhere near 400 at the gathering at the end of GoF, and > Voldemort only mentions six missing. Presumably some are in Azkaban > too, and some killed by Voldemort, like Regulus Black. But still, I > can't believe there can be some 350 missing. Is this part of the > eternal number-of-wizards problem? A Flint? Or does JKR have > something up her sleeve? > > Blaise It might be her numbers problem again (I still have yet to see anything in the books that supports her assertion that there are about 1000 students at Hogwarts, or even half that many) but this one would probably not be too hard to get out of, compared to many of the number issues in the books (such as Nick not having eaten in about 400 years when he'd been dead for about 500). Since we know that many people who did things on the side of the Death Eaters were actually under Imperius, that could account for the 20 to 1 ratio, and also account for why they wouldn't be considered true Death Eaters now that Voldemort is back. OTOH, it's been suggested before that those who were summoned to the graveyard in GoF were only the members of the "inner circle" and that many other minions did not get the Dark Mark that would have summoned them. Whether either one of those is the answer or not (or both), it'll probably be a bit less bothersome than explaining how Snape is supposed to teach Potions to 1000 students a week (minus those who don't qualify for NEWT-level classes) without using a Time-Turner and five different dungeons. --Barb From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 20:49:40 2003 From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:49:40 -0000 Subject: OOP: Hermione & Krum Message-ID: (I posted this on HPfGU earlier) S P O I L E R S P A C E O O P I've finished my second reading of OoP, and I have a strong feeling that the fact that Hermione is corresponding with Victor Krum has nothing to do with any sort of romantic relationship between the two of them. If you recall Dumbledore's speech at the end of GoF, he emphasised the need for cooperation among those who oppose Voldemort and that, "Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." Previous to this statement, Krum is said to look "wary, almost frightened, as though her expected Dumbledore to say something harsh." The next time we seem him is when HRH are outside waiting for the carriages to take them to the Hogwarts express. He approaches them, speaks disdainfully of Karkaroff, and then asks Hermione with a private "vord." Of course, Ron is seized with jealous curiosity, and as readers we are led to believe that the private conversation has to do with the romantic feelings Krum has for Hermione. We're left wondering about what was said when Hermione comes back looking impassive. Now in OoP, we know that Hermione is writing a very long letter to Krum when she and Ron are sitting in the common room and Harry returns from kissing Cho. When Ron finds out that she is writing Krum, he reacts jealously again, but Hermione seems more absorbed in writing her letter than she is in either Harry's interlude with Cho, or Ron's feelings on the matter. On the first read, I assumed that either Hermione is still somewhat romantically involved with Victor, or that she was writing him platonically, but letting Ron conclude that they were still involved for her own reasons ;-). However, now that I've started reading my UK version the following statement from George really jumped out at me.: "'Charlie's in the Order, too,' said George, 'but he's still in Romaina. Dumbledore wants as many foreign wizards brought in as possible, so Charile's trying to make contacts on his days off.'" OoP p67 UK I really think that Krum is now part of the Order, and that Hermione has been asked by Dumbledore to keep him up to date. After all, based on their interaction in GoF and Rita Skeeter's articles, no one would suspect that Hermione has been writing to him for any reason beyond the obvious personal one, and Krum is no longer a student at Durmstrang where, according to Draco, they actually "teach" the dark arts. He's old eonough to be a full member,since he's of age. *That's* what I think they were really talking about at the end of GoF, and that's why her face was impassive. Hermione is excellent at keeping secrets, Harry has very little interest in her interaction with Krum anyway, and Ron's reaction is a great way to cover up her true purpose in maintaining the correspondence (and I don't really think she minds tweaking Ron a little in the bargain). Anyway, this theory satisfies me concerning Krum & Hermione's interaction at the end of GoF, and paves the way for Krum's reentry in book 6 or 7. Does anyone else find this scenario plausable? Jo Serenadust From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 21:31:49 2003 From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: OotP: Return of the Numbers Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030702213149.7245.qmail@...> Remember in GoF, when Sirius was telling Ron, Harry, & Herminone about what life was like during Voldemort's first spree of terror? (I don't have my copy of GoF handy at the moment, so this is paraphrased). "You didn't know who was on which side, you didn't know who was acting of their own free will and who was under the Imperius Curse..." I'm willing to bet that Voldy et. al. were controlling people with the Imperius Curse left and right (perhaps Muggles and wizards/witches), so I could see how the number of Voldy "supporters" could be around 400. Or it could be that Lupin was using hyperbole - that it *seemed* like 20-1. psychic_serpent wrote: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Blaise" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > Even though it's not a huge spoiler really... I've been doing some > counting (and incidentally wondering whether LOON would take me on) > and I noticed something. According to Lupin, back during Voldemort's > first shot at world domination, the Order was outnumbered by Death > Eaters 20 to 1. Now there must have been at least 20 members of the > Order then, judging by the names and ages of the current members and > the photo Moody shows Harry. So that means at least 400 Death Eaters, > perhaps fewer allowing Lupin some leeway for exaggeration - maybe > they were really only outnumbered 10 to 1. So my question is, where > have they all gone? Only about 20 are mentioned in the books, there > weren't anywhere near 400 at the gathering at the end of GoF, and > Voldemort only mentions six missing. Presumably some are in Azkaban > too, and some killed by Voldemort, like Regulus Black. But still, I > can't believe there can be some 350 missing. Is this part of the > eternal number-of-wizards problem? A Flint? Or does JKR have > something up her sleeve? > > Blaise It might be her numbers problem again (I still have yet to see anything in the books that supports her assertion that there are about 1000 students at Hogwarts, or even half that many) but this one would probably not be too hard to get out of, compared to many of the number issues in the books (such as Nick not having eaten in about 400 years when he'd been dead for about 500). Since we know that many people who did things on the side of the Death Eaters were actually under Imperius, that could account for the 20 to 1 ratio, and also account for why they wouldn't be considered true Death Eaters now that Voldemort is back. OTOH, it's been suggested before that those who were summoned to the graveyard in GoF were only the members of the "inner circle" and that many other minions did not get the Dark Mark that would have summoned them. Whether either one of those is the answer or not (or both), it'll probably be a bit less bothersome than explaining how Snape is supposed to teach Potions to 1000 students a week (minus those who don't qualify for NEWT-level classes) without using a Time-Turner and five different dungeons. --Barb Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ~JoAnna~ http://pt4ever.diaryland.com "You know, you look at George W. and you realize some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and some get it as a graduation gift." - Robin Williams --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 21:44:05 2003 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 17:44:05 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] OOP: Hermione & Krum Message-ID: Jo Serenadust wrote: s p o i l e r s p a c e h o w m u c h l o n g e r ? (Snip excellent analysis) >Anyway, this theory satisfies me concerning Krum & Hermione's >interaction at the end of GoF, and paves the way for Krum's reentry >in book 6 or 7. Does anyone else find this scenario plausable? ::Raises hand:: Me, now that you bring it up. I never thought that she was *that* seriously interested in Krum; he just doesn't seem her type (she's not all *that* crazy about Quidditch). Parker, re-reading _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 2 21:59:07 2003 From: klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid (klmsign99) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 21:59:07 -0000 Subject: McGonagall Helping Harry and Clumsy Tonks (WAS: OOP: First-read Reactions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Penny again: > > > And, I liked Tonks. I don't think we saw enough of her to make a > > judgment about her role in the Order or anything, but I liked her > > quite alot and look forward to seeing her again. > > I liked Tonks, too. I think it's because I could really relate to > how clumsy she is, because I'm a klutz, too! Also, her clumsiness > pointed out that you don't have to be perfect to become an Auror, > which I thought was a valuable piece of information for Harry to have. > > ~Phyllis I had to wonder at the clumsiness of Tonks. Other than the fact that she is just that way, I wonder if it has to do with the fact that she is a shapeshifter. Kids with certain disabilities are clumsy because they don't get a feel for their body and space orientation. They have to be taught. But, Tonks, can change her height and body shape at will. She never can get used to where her body is orientated, and thus, becomes klutzy. I'm curious on if this will be an important fact in book 6 and 7. Kris From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 01:19:54 2003 From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 01:19:54 -0000 Subject: McGonagall Helping Harry and Clumsy Tonks (WAS: OOP: First-read Reactions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "klmsign99" > I had to wonder at the clumsiness of Tonks. Other than the fact > that she is just that way, I wonder if it has to do with the fact > that she is a shapeshifter. Kids with certain disabilities are > clumsy because they don't get a feel for their body and space > orientation. They have to be taught. But, Tonks, can change her > height and body shape at will. She never can get used to where her > body is orientated, and thus, becomes klutzy. I'm curious on if > this will be an important fact in book 6 and 7. > > Kris That's a neat theory. Unfortunately for me, I can't get over the feeling that she's just clumsy because she had to have *something* to remember her by. Metamorphawhatzit may be nifty (even if it's just easier polyjuice), but it's not a personality, so at this poit being a klutz and saying "Wotcher" (or something like that - is that a real thing people say?), is all there is to her. I'm sure she serves a purpose in future, but at the moment I feel like for all her page time, the little bit I know about Dedalus Diggle rivals Tonk's development. It could just be me though. kimberly From keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 02:38:54 2003 From: keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 02:38:54 -0000 Subject: The Noble House of Black Message-ID: s p o i l e r * * * s p a c e Okay, here's something that's starting to bother me. (And I am seriously afraid of looking at the main list to see if anyone has posted this, so forgive me if I'm just repeating.) What with Sirius gone now -- who gets his house? Obviously, if he has a will, he can leave it to who ever he thinks should have it (Harry? Lupin? Dumbledore?). But, what if he died without a will? Furthermore, is the will of an at large prison escapee going to be recognized by the MoM? His closet living blood relatives on the Family Tree are Bellatrix Lestrange and Narcissa Malfoy. If the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix fall into either of these hands (I'm guessing the Malfoy's) that would be disastrous! Hopefully, the fact that Tonks' mother is blasted off of the Family Tree won't mean that she can't inherit the house. Stephanie From klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 03:21:04 2003 From: klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid (klmsign99) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 03:21:04 -0000 Subject: The Noble House of Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie Roark Keener" wrote: > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > * > * > * > s > p > a > c > e > > Okay, here's something that's starting to bother me. (And I am > seriously afraid of looking at the main list to see if anyone has > posted this, so forgive me if I'm just repeating.) > > What with Sirius gone now -- who gets his house? Obviously, if he > has a will, he can leave it to who ever he thinks should have it > (Harry? Lupin? Dumbledore?). But, what if he died without a will? > Furthermore, is the will of an at large prison escapee going to be > recognized by the MoM? His closet living blood relatives on the > Family Tree are Bellatrix Lestrange and Narcissa Malfoy. If the > headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix fall into either of these > hands (I'm guessing the Malfoy's) that would be disastrous! > Hopefully, the fact that Tonks' mother is blasted off of the Family > Tree won't mean that she can't inherit the house. > > > Stephanie Here's another question that is bothering me. And this may have been brought up before. I understand why there wasn't a funeral held. Sirius still is considered a criminal. But why wasn't there a public notice of his death. I expected Fudge to capitalize on the fact that "one death eater was at least dead." We all know the truth, but Fudge could have manipulated that information to keep his public image slightly positive. Or does Fudge not know about his death? Kris From mo.hue at ... Thu Jul 3 05:53:12 2003 From: mo.hue at ... (=?iso-8859-1?Q? Monika=20H=FCbner ?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:53:12 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The Noble House of Black Message-ID: <200307030553.h635rCQ20750@...> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie Roark Keener" > wrote: > > s > > p > > o > > i > > l > > e > > r > > * > > * > > * > > s > > p > > a > > c > > e > > > > What with Sirius gone now -- who gets his house? You know, I was asking myself that question, too... > > Obviously, if he > > has a will, he can leave it to who ever he thinks should have it > > (Harry? Lupin? Dumbledore?). But, what if he died without a > will? Hm, he might have a will, stored in his Gringotts vault. It would be logical that he made one when he decided to be the Potter's Secret-Keeper. He expected to die then. Okay, he was still very young, but it's a viable assumption. But even if he has a will, the house wouldn't be part of it because he would have never wanted it and his mother was still alive at that time. Unless he changed his will during the time frame of OoP. I think this would be rather unlikely, he wasn't in the frame of mind to think of such things, being depressed and all. > > Furthermore, is the will of an at large prison escapee going to be > > recognized by the MoM? His closet living blood relatives on the > > Family Tree are Bellatrix Lestrange and Narcissa Malfoy. If the > > headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix fall into either of these > > hands (I'm guessing the Malfoy's) that would be disastrous! > > Hopefully, the fact that Tonks' mother is blasted off of the > Family > > Tree won't mean that she can't inherit the house. Sirius was blasted, too, and the house is his. The fact that it's unplottable might mean that neither Narcissa nor Bellatrix can get there, remember Dumbledore added his own charms. Kris added: > Here's another question that is bothering me. And this may have > been brought up before. I understand why there wasn't a funeral > held. Sirius still is considered a criminal. But why wasn't there > a public notice of his death. I expected Fudge to capitalize on the > fact that "one death eater was at least dead." We all know the > truth, but Fudge could have manipulated that information to keep his > public image slightly positive. Or does Fudge not know about his > death? Dumbledore might have told him. Fudge now recognizes Voldemort is back and that Dumbledore (and Harry) were right. And Sirius was one of those who contributed to catch at least some of the escaped Death Eaters, I think it would be very difficult for Fudge to maintain he was a criminal. But of course being Fudge, he'll try to pass it under the blanket. Maybe we'll learn what happened in Book 6, after all Kingsley is the one responsible for the hunt for Sirius, and he's a member of the order. Monika ______________________________________________________________________________ Sie haben mehr zu sagen als in eine SMS passt? Mit WEB.DE FreeMail ist das jetzt kein Problem mehr! http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021182 From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 06:52:47 2003 From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 02:52:47 -0400 Subject: Wizarding inheretence law Message-ID: <1057215170.3A96DD17@...> For those with curiosity about wizarding inheretence issues, susan hall has created an NEWT on the subject - good reading especially for lawyers - penny, bryce might find it funny. You can find it here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/ajhalluk/48963.html From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 07:30:58 2003 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:30:58 -0000 Subject: Spoilers - Clarification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Phyllis wrote: << I just realized that my last few posts had spoilers in the subject line - could I ask for clarification on our spoiler policy? If I've violated it, I would appreciate it if someone could delete my offending posts and I'll re-post them in the correct manner. Many thanks! >> Firstly, Phyllis, your posts were charming rather than offending, so I don't think you don't need to delete them! There are currently no votes for "still reading the book" in the poll, so I propose that we dispense with using spoiler space/avoiding header spoilers. If that would cause a problem for anyone who is active (rather than dormant), please shout up. It's probably more difficult at this stage to come up with an informative header that doesn't include a spoiler. ["OOP: You know that bit after that you- know-what happens? Scroll down three yards to see my thoughts on whatsername and thingy doing so-and-so"] A few people voted for keeping the spoiler protection in for other people, but as we're only discussing OoP at the moment, it should be fairly clear that there will be OoP spoilers on this list. Any new invitations would make this clear. I'm not sure it's essential to include OOP in headers, unless you want to make it clear your post is only about the new book - should we have that as optional? I suggest that we still use 'OT' in headers for completely OT posts, although we're mostly on topic at the moment. ** Flying Ford Anglia From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 10:16:18 2003 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 10:16:18 -0000 Subject: The Noble House of Black In-Reply-To: <200307030553.h635rCQ20750@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Monika H?bner" > > > s > > > p > > > o > > > i > > > l > > > e > > > r > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > s > > > p > > > a > > > c > > > e > > > > > > > What with Sirius gone now -- who gets his house? > > Hm, he might have a will, stored in his Gringotts vault. It would > be logical that he made one when he decided to be the Potter's > Secret-Keeper. He expected to die then. Okay, he was still very > young, but it's a viable assumption. But even if he has a will, the > house wouldn't be part of it because he would have never wanted it > and his mother was still alive at that time. Unless he > changed his will during the time frame of OoP. I think this would be rather > unlikely, he wasn't in the frame of mind to think of such things, > being depressed and all. > Me, with a small comment: There is such a thing as "residue", defined as: "in a will, the assets of the estate of a person who has died with a will (died testate) which are left after all specific gifts have been made." (from http://dictionary.law.com/) I should think that Sirius probably named either James or Harry (if his last will was made after James died) as his residuary beneficiary (is that the term?). I should say, Harry most probably now owns the house. Naama (who has no legal education whatsoever, but reads a LOT of detective stories) From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 14:59:11 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 14:59:11 -0000 Subject: The Noble House of Black In-Reply-To: <200307030553.h635rCQ20750@...> Message-ID: > Kris: > > > Here's another question that is bothering me. And this may have > > been brought up before. I understand why there wasn't a funeral > > held. Sirius still is considered a criminal. But why wasn't > > there a public notice of his death. I expected Fudge to > > capitalize on the fact that "one death eater was at least > > dead." We all know the truth, but Fudge could have manipulated > > that information to keep his public image slightly positive. Or > > does Fudge not know about his death? "Monika H?bner" wrote: > Dumbledore might have told him. Fudge now recognizes Voldemort > is back and that Dumbledore (and Harry) were right. And Sirius was > one of those who contributed to catch at least some of the escaped > Death Eaters, I think it would be very difficult for Fudge to > maintain he was a criminal. But of course being Fudge, he'll try > to pass it under the blanket. Maybe we'll learn what happened in > Book 6, after all Kingsley is the one responsible for the hunt for > Sirius, and he's a member of the order. Right, there's a whole huge mess that needs to be sorted out here. If Fudge were to trumpet Sirius' death, he'd have to explain who killed him. Bellatrix Lestrange is the one who killed him, so then he'd have to explain how ANOTHER Azkaban escapee managed to get into the Ministry, not to mention why they were attacking each other. This wouldn't necessarily lead to Sirius being exonerated posthumously; you never know when Fudge will do something like decide that it was Bellatrix who was innocent and that's why she killed her cousin, although anyone who knew her would probably never make the mistake of thinking she was on the good side. I think Fudge, although acknowledging Voldemort's return now, will in fact sweep under the rug everything that happened at the Ministry. It would be far too embarrassing for it to come out how very poor the security is, that there was the magical equivalent of a firefight going on in the Department of Mysteries, of all places, AND that it included students who flew from Hogwarts to London on Thestrals! Since Bellatrix is supposed to be in prison, she certainly wouldn't qualify to claim 12 Grimmauld Place, which would leave Narcissa, and you have to wonder why she wouldn't have done this already, since Sirius was serving a life term in Azkaban before his escape. Maybe she will try to claim it now, you never know. With her husband going to prison, will the existing Malfoy fortune keep her in the style to which she was accustomed? Or will she end up out of Malfoy Mansion on her ear and forced to fall back on a Black legacy? --Barb From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 15:42:38 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 15:42:38 -0000 Subject: The Fifth NEWT and James and Lily as Aurors (also posted on HPfGU) Message-ID: McGonagall tells Harry that a minimum of five NEWTs are required to become an Auror, but then she only tells him about four: Defense Against the Dark Arts, Charms, Potions and Transfiguration. Any idea what the fifth one is? Presumably it's a subject Harry's currently taking, or else McGonagall would have told him he's out of the running, so presumably this rules out subjects like Ancient Runes and Arithmancy. Which leaves History of Magic, Herbology, Divination or Astronomy as potential candidates (any I forgot?). Also, I thought it was interesting that McGonagall put such a heavy emphasis on both Transfiguration and Charms during the career advice session, since Ollivander tells Harry in PS/SS that James' wand was "excellent for transfiguration" and Lily's was a "nice wand for charm work." This information, coupled with the new knowledge that both Lily and James were in the Order during the first war and defied Voldemort three times, leads me to change my mind about Lily and James being Aurors. I didn't used to think they were, given that they don't appear to fight against Voldemort when he attacked them at Godric's Hollow, but I now think they were. ~Phyllis From pinguthegreek at michelleapostolides.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 15:57:33 2003 From: pinguthegreek at michelleapostolides.yahoo.invalid (Pinguthegreek) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:57:33 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] The Fifth NEWT and James and Lily as Aurors (also posted on HPfGU) References: Message-ID: <002f01c3417b$d43f31c0$c95fc487@personal> ----- Original Message ----- From: Phyllis To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: [the_old_crowd] The Fifth NEWT and James and Lily as Aurors (also posted on HPfGU) McGonagall tells Harry that a minimum of five NEWTs are required to become an Auror, but then she only tells him about four: Defense Against the Dark Arts, Charms, Potions and Transfiguration. Any idea what the fifth one is? Presumably it's a subject Harry's currently taking, or else McGonagall would have told him he's out of the running, so presumably this rules out subjects like Ancient Runes and Arithmancy. Which leaves History of Magic, Herbology, Divination or Astronomy as potential candidates (any I forgot?). I wonder, might they try to persuade Harry to take NEWTS which might benefit him in his task to defeat Voldemort too ? Michelle PS, I have been trying to keep up here but umm... yeah.... you lot know me.. dormouse of the year !!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 16:02:52 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 18:02:52 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The Noble House of Black In-Reply-To: References: <200307030553.h635rCQ20750@...> Message-ID: On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 14:59:11 -0000, "psychic_serpent" wrote: >This wouldn't necessarily lead to Sirius being exonerated >posthumously; you never know when Fudge will do something like >decide that it was Bellatrix who was innocent and that's why she >killed her cousin, although anyone who knew her would probably never >make the mistake of thinking she was on the good side. Even Fudge shouldn't make that mistake. Was he present at her trial? I can't remember if Harry saw him there and my copy of GoF is on loan. But the Lestranges made no secret of their being supporters of Voldemort at that point, so Fudge must know that she really *was* a Death Eater. And you're right, it would be very difficult for him to explain why they were trying to kill each other if Sirius was a DE, too. And now he has not only Dumbledore's word, but that of a couple of other people as well, he can't keep pretending they're all lunatics and/or victims of Confundus charms. >I think Fudge, although acknowledging Voldemort's return now, will >in fact sweep under the rug everything that happened at the >Ministry. It would be far too embarrassing for it to come out how >very poor the security is, that there was the magical equivalent of >a firefight going on in the Department of Mysteries, of all places, >AND that it included students who flew from Hogwarts to London on >Thestrals! Right. So no posthumous rehabilitation for Sirius. :( He could at least give him that. >Since Bellatrix is supposed to be in prison, she certainly wouldn't >qualify to claim 12 Grimmauld Place, which would leave Narcissa, and >you have to wonder why she wouldn't have done this already, since >Sirius was serving a life term in Azkaban before his escape. Maybe >she will try to claim it now, you never know. Even if she does, she should have problems to find it. Dumbledore contributed to make it unplottable. And did Tonks say that her mother was dead? I can't remember. I guess I'll have to read it again when I get it back... Naama said: >I should think that Sirius probably named either James or Harry (if >his last will was made after James died) as his residuary beneficiary >(is that the term?). I should say, Harry most probably now owns the >house. If Sirius' last will was made after James died, it must have been made during the time frame of OoP. He didn't have time after James' death, since he was immediately sent to Azkaban. But if he really got around to making a last will in OoP, I'd guess he would rather have left the house to the order than "forcing" Harry to live there. He hated it too much IMHO. Personally, I wouldn't want to live with that screaming portrait, either. Monika From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 16:36:10 2003 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 16:36:10 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Origins of the Founders (British Geography input needed) (No OOP at all) Message-ID: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Linsenmayer" wrote: Hi -- Working on my Nimbus - 2003 geography presentation, and I came across a puzzling bit of information in a message from 2 years ago. I could use some input, particularly from British members......... > In which case Godrics Hollow is not necessarily in South Wales as has > > previously been supposed by some as Hagrid flew over Bristol on his > > way to Surrey. Wherever Harry was taken in the interim was in South > > Wales though. > > > > In GoF the Sorting Hat describes Godric Gryffindor as being > > from 'Wild moor.' it is unlikely he came from Wales (we don't have > > any moors). Every website I'm seeing says that the moor lands are concentrated in Yorkshire (duh), Wales, Cumbria and Dartmoor. So, does Wales have moors or not? Hufflepuff seems to have Wales covered as she came > > from 'Valley Broad', somewhat stereotypically Welsh.>>> Even if that is stereotypically Welsh, are there not other areas of the UK with broad valleys? Ravenclaw from glen does suggest to *me* anyway that she hailed from Scotland. At the time of these discussions earlier, Neil came up with a theory that the fen origin of Slytherin might be referring to Ireland: > An alternative, slightly more likely theory, is that 'fens' refers to the > Irish fens - i.e. the Irish peatlands (originally boglands - later drained, > rather like the English fens). This, of course, fits in nicely with the > association of Slytherin with snakes, since legend has it that St Patrick > drove all the snakes from Ireland. So, if you say that Slytherin came from Ireland, Ravenclaw from Scotland .........and you assume that the four houses are meant to correspond with England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (which may be a faulty assumption in and of itself), is there really no way to associate Gryffindor with Wales? I'm thinking the moors could very definitely be in Wales from what I'm reading, and I can't imagine that England is completely without an area fitting the description "valley broad." Sorry to interrupt your regularly-scheduled OoP discussions with something so old, but I could use some opinions if anyone has any thoughts. Penny --- End forwarded message --- From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 17:03:00 2003 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:03:00 -0000 Subject: The Fifth NEWT and James and Lily as Aurors (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > McGonagall tells Harry that a minimum of five NEWTs are required to > become an Auror, but then she only tells him about four: Defense Against the Dark Arts, Charms, Potions and Transfiguration. Any idea what the fifth one is? I read it that the requirement is five NEWTs, subjects not specifed, and McGonagall names the four which are generally considered most helpful. The fifth could then be any subject. The aurors would want to recruit people with diverse interests, surely. Pippin From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 3 21:33:40 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 21:33:40 -0000 Subject: The Phoenix, the Stag, the Otter and the Swan (also posted on HPfGU) Message-ID: The "Phoenix" in the "Order of the Phoenix:" I thought it was notable that there is no definition provided in OoP of why the Order of the Phoenix is named after a phoenix. I believe the Order received its name from Fawkes, Professor Dumbledore's phoenix, and I think Fawkes was Godric Gryffindor's phoenix when Gryffindor was alive because: - Fawkes is scarlet and gold, the colors of Gryffindor House. Harry's wand contains one of Fawkes' feathers as its magical core, and red and gold sparks fly from the end of his wand the first time he waves it in PS/SS as well as in his anger at the Dursleys in OoP. - Fawkes lives in Dumbledore's office along with the Sorting Hat and sword that we are told once belonged to Gryffindor. We are told for the first time in CoS that Dumbledore's office door has a griffin-shaped knocker; the griffin knocker is referred to twice in OoP. - In legend, the griffin was believed to be the adversary of serpent and basilisks. This could be a parallel to Gryffindor's Fawkes and Slytherin's basilisk. When I originally came up with this theory, I thought it might also be a clue to a possible good-against- evil fight between Gryffindor and Slytherin 1,000 years ago. This was verified in OoP during the Sorting Hat's song which refers to their duelling and fighting. Moreover, Fawkes helps Harry defeat the basilisk in the Chamber and phoenix song strengthens Harry both in the Chamber and in the graveyard in Goblet of Fire. So, perhaps the Order of the Phoenix during the first war was carrying on the Gryffindor-Slytherin fight against Voldemort, with James the descendant of Gryffindor fighting Voldemort, the descendant of Slytherin. Harry's Stag Patronus: I believe that Harry's stag patronus and James' stag animagus represent Harry and James' descendancy from Godric Gryffindor because in the legend of "St. Godric and the Hunted Stag," a hunting party is pursuing a particularly beautiful stag, which runs to St. Godric's hermitage for shelter. St. Godric protects the stag from the hunters. So in the second war, the Order of the Phoenix is again carrying on the Gryffindor-Slytherin fight against Voldemort, with Harry the descendant of Gryffindor fighting Voldemort, the descendant of Slytherin. Hermione's Otter Patronus: It was the life of St. Cuthbert which influenced St. Godric to become religious. There is a legend about St. Cuthbert which says that otters revived him after he had prayed through the night while up to his neck in cold sea water. As St. Godric is represented in art with a stag by his side, St. Cuthbert is represented in art tended by otters and swans. Which leads us to... Cho's Swan Patronus: I couldn't find any legends about St. Cuthbert and swans, but he was fond of the eider-duck, which is regarded as the first bird in the world to have been given conservation protection, when St. Cuthbert offered the eider duck sanctuary on the Farne Islands in the seventh century. Eider-ducks are called "Saint Cuthbert's ducks" or "Cuddy's" ducks. (see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/livingworld_20020303.shtml) So perhaps Hermione's otter patronus and Cho's swan patronus are clues which support both the Heir of Gryffindor theory as well as Hermione and Cho's potential future roles in reviving Harry after he has suffered. Other Interesting Parallels: St. Cuthbert lived on the wild moors. Godric Gryffindor is referred to being "from wild moor" during the Sorting Hat's song in GoF. When St. Cuthbert's body was moved in 1104 to the new cathedral of Durham, his body was found to be perfectly preserved as was the head of St. Oswald, which had been placed with Cuthbert's body for safety. It is from this point that the head of St. Oswald was adopted as the symbol of St. Cuthbert. (see: http://www.britainexpress.com/History/saxon/cuthbert.htm) In OoP, we learn that Fudge's middle name is "Oswald." Does this suggest that Fudge will be beheaded in book 6 or 7 (I can only hope!)? Or perhaps that he will see the light and join the fight against Voldemort? There are several otter references in the books -- the Weasley's house is near the village of *Ottery* St. Catchpole, and the Weasleys, the Diggorys and Harry find the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup at the top of *Stoat*shead Hill. Not to mention Hagrid's stoat sandwiches and the fact that otters are cousins to weasels. St. Cuthbert was an orphan, like Harry. There is only one character so far in the series with the name of "Cuthbert" - Cuthbert Mockridge, Head of the Goblin Liaison Office, who is mentioned in passing in Ch. 7 of GoF. We've heard lots about goblin rebellions, and learn more about how goblins have historically been repressed by wizards in OoP. Perhaps goblins will play a larger role in books 6 and 7 and we'll learn more about Cuthbert Mockridge. ~Phyllis From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 4 00:33:07 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] The Phoenix, the Stag, the Otter and the Swan (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030704003307.937.qmail@...> This is really interesting information. JKR's going to get nervous if she gets ahold of this. Maybe she'll write a little faster to keep the secrets from spreading too fast! Can you elaborate on the similarities between the ending of Book One and the other succeeding books' endings? I figured out that Devil's Snare has "snakelike tendrils" that wrap around your ankles. Perhaps a reference to the Basilisk. What do winged keys represent? In the fighting chessboard, the white king took his crown and threw it at Harry's feet. Is that significant? Quirrell left a troll that was knocked out. SPOILERS BELOW p o i l e r s b e l o w Snape's potions poem finishes with "Are twins once you taste them, though different at first sight". I think that could alude to Harry and Voldemorte being like twins now with the two snakes mumbled by Dumbledore on the night Mr. Weasley is attacked and attached in Harry's dreams. Harry drinks a potion that makes him feel like ice and walks through black flames. The last is Quirrell and the mirror of Erised. The capturing of the stone led to the death of Nicholas Flamel. Does that imply someone nice has to die for the Wizard world to return to peace and harmony in book 7? I am merely guessing, but someone else seemed to have an idea how everything was related. Any clues? ALSO... Change of topic... and now for something completely different.... I was wondering about the name Luna Lovegood. She seems kind of Moonstruck. Is she just blatantly a love interest for the boys in the books? Or does she share Harry's moon sign and provide him with free love advice as the years go by. :0) Ca --- Phyllis wrote: > The "Phoenix" in the "Order of the Phoenix:" > > I thought it was notable that there is no definition > provided in OoP > of why the Order of the Phoenix is named after a > phoenix. I believe > the Order received its name from Fawkes, Professor > Dumbledore's > phoenix, and I think Fawkes was Godric Gryffindor's > phoenix when > Gryffindor was alive because: > > - Fawkes is scarlet and gold, the colors of > Gryffindor House. > Harry's wand contains one of Fawkes' feathers as its > magical core, > and red and gold sparks fly from the end of his wand > the first time > he waves it in PS/SS as well as in his anger at the > Dursleys in OoP. > > - Fawkes lives in Dumbledore's office along with the > Sorting > Hat and sword that we are told once belonged to > Gryffindor. We are > told for the first time in CoS that Dumbledore's > office door has a > griffin-shaped knocker; the griffin knocker is > referred to twice in > OoP. > > - In legend, the griffin was believed to be the > adversary of > serpent and basilisks. This could be a parallel to > Gryffindor's > Fawkes and Slytherin's basilisk. When I originally > came up with this > theory, I thought it might also be a clue to a > possible good-against- > evil fight between Gryffindor and Slytherin 1,000 > years ago. This > was verified in OoP during the Sorting Hat's song > which refers to > their duelling and fighting. Moreover, Fawkes helps > Harry defeat the > basilisk in the Chamber and phoenix song strengthens > Harry both in > the Chamber and in the graveyard in Goblet of Fire. > > So, perhaps the Order of the Phoenix during the > first war was > carrying on the Gryffindor-Slytherin fight against > Voldemort, with > James the descendant of Gryffindor fighting > Voldemort, the descendant > of Slytherin. > > Harry's Stag Patronus: > > I believe that Harry's stag patronus and James' stag > animagus > represent Harry and James' descendancy from Godric > Gryffindor because > in the legend of "St. Godric and the Hunted Stag," a > hunting party is > pursuing a particularly beautiful stag, which runs > to St. Godric's > hermitage for shelter. St. Godric protects the stag > from the > hunters. So in the second war, the Order of the > Phoenix is again > carrying on the Gryffindor-Slytherin fight against > Voldemort, with > Harry the descendant of Gryffindor fighting > Voldemort, the descendant > of Slytherin. > > Hermione's Otter Patronus: > > It was the life of St. Cuthbert which influenced St. > Godric to become > religious. There is a legend about St. Cuthbert > which says that > otters revived him after he had prayed through the > night while up to > his neck in cold sea water. As St. Godric is > represented in art with > a stag by his side, St. Cuthbert is represented in > art tended by > otters and swans. Which leads us to... > > Cho's Swan Patronus: > > I couldn't find any legends about St. Cuthbert and > swans, but he was > fond of the eider-duck, which is regarded as the > first bird in the > world to have been given conservation protection, > when St. Cuthbert > offered the eider duck sanctuary on the Farne > Islands in the seventh > century. Eider-ducks are called "Saint Cuthbert's > ducks" > or "Cuddy's" ducks. (see: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/livingworld_20020303.shtml) > > So perhaps Hermione's otter patronus and Cho's swan > patronus are > clues which support both the Heir of Gryffindor > theory as well as > Hermione and Cho's potential future roles in > reviving Harry after he > has suffered. > > Other Interesting Parallels: > > St. Cuthbert lived on the wild moors. Godric > Gryffindor is referred > to being "from wild moor" during the Sorting Hat's > song in GoF. > > When St. Cuthbert's body was moved in 1104 to the > new cathedral of > Durham, his body was found to be perfectly preserved > as was the head > of St. Oswald, which had been placed with Cuthbert's > body for safety. > It is from this point that the head of St. Oswald > was adopted as the > symbol of St. Cuthbert. (see: > http://www.britainexpress.com/History/saxon/cuthbert.htm) > > In OoP, we learn that Fudge's middle name is > "Oswald." Does this > suggest that Fudge will be beheaded in book 6 or 7 > (I can only > hope!)? Or perhaps that he will see the light and > join the fight > against Voldemort? > > There are several otter references in the books -- > the Weasley's > house is near the village of *Ottery* St. Catchpole, > and the > Weasleys, the Diggorys and Harry find the Portkey to > the Quidditch > World Cup at the top of *Stoat*shead Hill. Not to > mention Hagrid's > stoat sandwiches and the fact that otters are > cousins to weasels. > > St. Cuthbert was an orphan, like Harry. > > There is only one character so far in the series > with the name > of "Cuthbert" - Cuthbert Mockridge, Head of the > Goblin Liaison > Office, who is mentioned in passing in Ch. 7 of GoF. > We've heard > lots about goblin rebellions, and learn more about > how goblins have > historically been repressed by wizards in OoP. > Perhaps goblins will > play a larger role in books 6 and 7 and we'll learn > more about > Cuthbert Mockridge. > > ~Phyllis > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 4 04:25:09 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:25:09 -0000 Subject: MAJOR SPOILERS.....THE OOPS SONG !!! Message-ID: This song is sung to the tune of "I am the very model of a Modern British General" by Gilbert and Sullivan.... It contains major spoilers for anyone who has not read the Order of the Phoenix. Reading this email before you finish the book will blow your mind, curve your spine, and lose the war for the allies!!!! The OOPS Song .... By Randy Estes I had a dream I'm running down a corridor that's filled with doors. I sometimes get the feeling that I'm turning into Voldemorte. The Phoenix Order's taking flight, And Weasley suffers a snake bite And Hagrid looks a horrid sight. Hey, what's that Blueish Shining Light? The Orders taking me to visit Number 12, Grimmaud Place. The pictures started screaming when Tonks knocked a troll's leg out of place. The house has elf heads on the wall, And Percy's not returning calls. And Harry's about to lose it all When Sirius takes no curtain call. (Background Group starts to sing:) If you're getting tired of this song. He's sorry he meant nothing wrong! But JK Rowling takes too long Where do these fans of hers belong? We meet a nasty teacher who keeps trying to take over here. There's never been a Dark Arts teacher that could last more than one year. The Hogwarts High Inquisitor Keeps tabs on Every Professor. Then shows Trelawney to the door. And next she's after Dumbledore. So Harry starts the DA to prepare kids to fight Voldemorte. He had to find something to do. He can't play Quidditch anymore. And Fred and George start to attack, While Harry contacts Sirius Black. And Hagrid brings a Giant back Before he finally gets the sack! (Background Group sings...) If you're getting tired of this song He's sorry he meant nothing wrong! But JK Rowling takes too long We don't know where her fans belong! Professor Snape was ordered to teach young Harry Occumency. When Snape was forced to leave the room, Harry saw Snape's worst memory! Where James exposed Snape's underwear Sirius and Lupin did not care If Snape's feelings were trampled there. When Snape found Harry, his teeth were bared! The Centaurs carry off Umbridge and do things we wish we could see. Then Harry and the gang go to the Department of Mysteries. The Death Eaters are waiting there. The doors keep spinning everywhere. And Brains go flying through the air The battle leaves us in dispair. The Death Eaters try to steal prophecies and then get out of there. The wands are firing, people shouting, bodies lying everywhere. Harry and Neville drop the ball. Voldemorte misses it after all. And Dumbledore makes Tom look small And Fudge is forced to believe it all! (Background Group sings:) We're not sure where this song belongs He's sorry he meant nothing wrong But JK Rowling takes too long And now we're finished with this song! (Red Eye Randy bows and falls off the stage...) From witchwanda2002 at witchwanda2002.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 4 11:58:11 2003 From: witchwanda2002 at witchwanda2002.yahoo.invalid (Wanda the *B*Witch) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 04:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT- Happy Fourth of July aka Happy Birthday America! Message-ID: <20030704115811.10568.qmail@...> Hey everybody here in the USA, Happy Fourth of July! Hope the weather co-operates for all the outdoor fun! Happy Friday to everybody else around the world or Saturday! Wanda the *B*Witch and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits. ~~~ Albert Einstein --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 4 12:13:49 2003 From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:13:49 -0400 Subject: Seven Obstacles, Seven Books (WAS: The Phoenix, the Stag, the Otter and the Swan (also posted on HPfGU) References: <20030704003307.937.qmail@...> Message-ID: <00e001c34225$b9cdc7c0$9ddc5644@...> Randy Estes wrote: > Can you elaborate on the similarities between the > ending of Book One and the other succeeding books' > endings? > > I figured out that Devil's Snare has "snakelike > tendrils" that wrap around your ankles. Perhaps a > reference to the Basilisk. What do winged keys > represent? > > In the fighting chessboard, the white king took his > crown and threw it at Harry's feet. Is that > significant? > > Quirrell left a troll that was knocked out. > > > Snape's potions poem finishes with "Are twins once you > taste them, though different at first sight". I think > that could alude to Harry and Voldemorte being like > twins now with the two snakes mumbled by Dumbledore on > the night Mr. Weasley is attacked and attached in > Harry's dreams. Harry drinks a potion that makes him > feel like ice and walks through black flames. > > The last is Quirrell and the mirror of Erised. The > capturing of the stone led to the death of Nicholas > Flamel. Does that imply someone nice has to die for > the Wizard world to return to peace and harmony in > book 7? > > I am merely guessing, but someone else seemed to have > an idea how everything was related. Any clues? > That was me. It's an idea that's been bouncing around HPFGU for some time, and some of the parallels are a bit rough (especially the flying keys, as you mentioned) but the pieces are beginning to fall into place for me now. Here is a thumbnail sketch of how I think the parallels might work; I haven't spent a lot of time fleshing out all the parallels. Task 1, choosing to protect the stone and getting past Fluffy. This represents the decision. Harry & co. neutralized Fluffy by putting him to sleep; later, Harry neutralizes Quirrell by his touch. Going through the trapdoor can symbolize the entry into the quest, although it also fits task 2. Task 2, through the trapdoor and into the Devil's Snare. Going through the trapdoor parallels finding the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets and entering through it. The fall in each book is similar, the Devil's Snare has basilisk-like characteristics, and can be defeated by light and warmth. Harry essentially defeated the basilisk via faith and loyalty. There's also the fact of Riddle ensnaring Harry through the diary. Task 3 involves a choice (selecting the right key) and flying to catch it. It's harder than with some of the others to draw the parallel to the Shrieking Shack events, except for the fact that Harry chose to spare Pettigrew and Hermione flew Buckbeak to rescue Sirius. Interestingly, the right key had crumpled feathers on one side, a possible parallel to Pettigrew's maimed hand. Task 4 is the chess game with the transfigured chessmen. In the graveyard, Voldemort uses the potion to transfigure himself. Harry engages in a battle of wits with Voldemort and manages to escape. Cedric is sacrificed. Task 5, which I mentioned earlier, was the troll which Quirrell had taken care of before Harry reached it. This task represents Harry's failure and the fact that Dumbledore in effect needed to rescue him. Also, the action-film shoot-out generally parallels wrestling or fighting a troll -- at least more so than the other climaxes, which are about much more than using one's weapon (i.e., one's wand) effectively. Task 6 was the logic puzzle with the seven potions, my personal favorite of all the tasks. I don't know how this will play out in Book 6, but Harry had four different choices in the seven bottles: go forward into unknown danger, retreat, do nothing, or do something destructive. Task 7 was, of course, the confrontation with Quirrell. Presumably book 7 will end with Harry's final confrontation with Voldemort. Against Quirrell, Harry prevailed because of the power of his mother's love. As the prophecy foretells, I expect Voldemort to be vanquished in some manner by an act of love, the one weapon that Harry possesses but which Voldemort lacks. There are a lot of theories about Harry's possible relationship to the Philosopher's Stone (e.g., that he is the embodiment of the Stone), and speculation about how in Book 7 he might sacrifice this in order to save the WW, which is one way this could play out. I'm going to respond to everyone else's comments as soon as I can, but right now I have to go vacuum for the houseguests that will be arriving shortly. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 4 14:33:26 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 14:33:26 -0000 Subject: NASTY BOY THINKING Re: OOP: Some shipping thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Back to the ? for Harry, I think Tonks is a possible match, which may be why > she was introduced. The (slightly) older woman, who knows a few tricks... > > Neil said. Red Eye Randy waves the other guys over to the men's locker room to discuss the matter ..... Well, you heterosexual guys have to admit that even though he may not want to marry Tonks and take her home forever. He could enjoy a romp with a different woman every night with just one gal. She can change here looks every night and Harry would never get bored. This can't last forever, but it could get him past the exploding hormone part of his life while he tries to figure out who he wants to be when he grows up. Meanwhile, I can't help thinking that Hermione is too cerebral for either Ron or Harry at least at this point in time. Harry and Ron have the look of fresh nerds right off the farm so far. Hermione sounds like she could be examining her womanhood any day now. I could see where Ginny might be a lot to handle with her athleticism on the Quidditch field. She probably will have a whole slew of lovers to satisfy her needs. Ron is in love with being a kid at the moment. He likes Quidditch so much he felt he was unworthy of playing on the Hogwarts pitch. Ron is definitely a late bloomer as far as I can tell. Hermione would have to yell stupefy , accio...you know what..... while wearing her little nighty and proceed to show him the way to manhood. This couldn't happen until graduation week as far as I am concerned because of her need to maintain her 110 % average on all tests. Upon completion of her last final, she grabs the bottle of sherry, her nighty and proceeds to satisfy herself with Ron, followed by Harry and anyone else she finds interesting that night. Professor McGonagall keeps wondering why Hermione never shows up for breakfast the next morning when they had talked about planning her future graduate studies program immediately after breakfast. Ron Weasley lies in his bed wondering what hit him for half the day. Harry spends time wondering why he missed out on this action for the past 3 years. You know, I just can't see JKR writing anything like this. You fanfic writers are going to have to fill in the blanks for these storylines. Essentially Ron wants to play Quidditch, Harry wants to save the World, Ginny wants to prove she is as good or better than most men, Hermione wants to know everything ever discovered and written down, Luna Lovegood plans to orbit the planet Neptune for another few eons, Draco wants to eliminate any competition he thinks might keep him from the top, and Neville wants to escape Grandma and get on with the rest of his life. Actually Neville may make a better Minister of Magic than Ron (which I previously predicted). This rubbish I wrote does not reflect the opinions of anyone associated with me and is a direct result of too much coffee, the morning after I wrote that silly song. I hope I have not offended anyone.... Well, maybe just a few of you...:0) Red Eye Randy --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Neil Ward" > There were hints that Luna Lovegood has her eye on Ron, so I speculate that > she may be used to wake Hermione up to her unrealised interest in Ron in > Book 6. > > Back to the ? for Harry, I think Tonks is a possible match, which may be why > she was introduced. The (slightly) older woman, who knows a few tricks... > > Neil > > *** > > Flying Ford Anglia From klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 4 15:09:28 2003 From: klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid (klmsign99) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 15:09:28 -0000 Subject: OOP: Hermione & Krum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I really think that Krum is now part of the Order, and that Hermione has been asked by Dumbledore to keep him up to date. After all, > based on their interaction in GoF and Rita Skeeter's articles, no > one would suspect that Hermione has been writing to him for any > reason beyond the obvious personal one, and Krum is no longer a > student at Durmstrang where, according to Draco, they > actually "teach" the dark arts. He's old eonough to be a full > member,since he's of age. *That's* what I think they > were really talking about at the end of GoF, and that's why her face > was impassive. Hermione is excellent at keeping secrets, Harry has > very little interest in her interaction with Krum anyway, and Ron's > reaction is a great way to cover up her true purpose in maintaining > the correspondence (and I don't really think she minds tweaking Ron > a little in the bargain). > > Anyway, this theory satisfies me concerning Krum & Hermione's > interaction at the end of GoF, and paves the way for Krum's reentry > in book 6 or 7. Does anyone else find this scenario plausable? > > Jo Serenadust My only disagreement with this statement comes from the fact that Hermione, Harry, and Ron are not actually part of the Order. They are informed of some of the things going on, but in reality I think there is much more going on behind the scenes than what we see. I don't think the kids realize how much is really being planned and intercepted. But I do think Krum could very well be a part of the Order. The other problem is that all Owl Post is being intercepted. Hermione couldn't give Krum a lot of useful clear information. Not without tipping Umbridge off. It's also just very possible that they are good friends. Hermione's always been a little secretive about her personal life. This situation may not be any different. She doesn't seem like the type to brag that she would be writing him. Kris From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 5 02:45:56 2003 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 02:45:56 -0000 Subject: MAJOR SPOILERS.....THE OOPS SONG !!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: *gives Randy a standing ovation* Fabulous! I've been waiting for the OOP version of the song...and I knew you would come through magnificently. Bravo! ~Kaitlin --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy" wrote: > This song is sung to the tune of "I am the very model of a Modern > British General" by Gilbert and Sullivan.... > > It contains major spoilers for anyone who has not read the Order of > the Phoenix. Reading this email before you finish the book will > blow your mind, curve your spine, and lose the war for the allies!!!! > > The OOPS Song .... By Randy Estes > > I had a dream I'm running down a corridor that's filled with doors. > I sometimes get the feeling that I'm turning into Voldemorte. > > The Phoenix Order's taking flight, > And Weasley suffers a snake bite > And Hagrid looks a horrid sight. > Hey, what's that Blueish Shining Light? > > The Orders taking me to visit Number 12, Grimmaud Place. > The pictures started screaming when Tonks knocked a troll's leg out > of place. > > The house has elf heads on the wall, > And Percy's not returning calls. > And Harry's about to lose it all > When Sirius takes no curtain call. > > (Background Group starts to sing:) > > If you're getting tired of this song. > He's sorry he meant nothing wrong! > But JK Rowling takes too long > Where do these fans of hers belong? > > We meet a nasty teacher who keeps trying to take over here. > There's never been a Dark Arts teacher that could last more than one > year. > > The Hogwarts High Inquisitor > Keeps tabs on Every Professor. > Then shows Trelawney to the door. > And next she's after Dumbledore. > > So Harry starts the DA to prepare kids to fight Voldemorte. > He had to find something to do. He can't play Quidditch anymore. > > And Fred and George start to attack, > While Harry contacts Sirius Black. > And Hagrid brings a Giant back > Before he finally gets the sack! > > (Background Group sings...) > > If you're getting tired of this song > He's sorry he meant nothing wrong! > But JK Rowling takes too long > We don't know where her fans belong! > > Professor Snape was ordered to teach young Harry Occumency. > When Snape was forced to leave the room, Harry saw Snape's worst > memory! > > Where James exposed Snape's underwear > Sirius and Lupin did not care > If Snape's feelings were trampled there. > When Snape found Harry, his teeth were bared! > > The Centaurs carry off Umbridge and do things we wish we could see. > Then Harry and the gang go to the Department of Mysteries. > > The Death Eaters are waiting there. > The doors keep spinning everywhere. > And Brains go flying through the air > The battle leaves us in dispair. > > The Death Eaters try to steal prophecies and then get out of there. > The wands are firing, people shouting, bodies lying everywhere. > > Harry and Neville drop the ball. > Voldemorte misses it after all. > And Dumbledore makes Tom look small > And Fudge is forced to believe it all! > > (Background Group sings:) > > We're not sure where this song belongs > He's sorry he meant nothing wrong > But JK Rowling takes too long > And now we're finished with this song! > > (Red Eye Randy bows and falls off the stage...) From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 5 21:47:06 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 21:47:06 -0000 Subject: House System and Quidditch (copied from Main List) Message-ID: I posted this on the Main List and now I copy it here; is that okay? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zebco606" wrote: > > I think we see a foreshadowing of this in the Sorting Hat's plea > for unity. Will the house system be done away with altogether? > Will SLytherin be absorbed into the others? Will there be a new > house? Seems like we need at least four for Quidditch Cup play. Hermione said that Quidditch is divisive. It would be less divisive if it were separated from the Houses. There could be a system in which every student who had passed their [hypothetical] flying test, and was second year or over, and wanted to play, would sign up with Madam Hooch. Then I imagine an election in which all the students who had signed up for Quidditch would elect four captains. Then the captains would choose their players and reserves from all the students who had signed up. I mean, choose their players in a formalized version of the usual amateur I-pick-1 then-you-pick-1 method. I imagine that the captains would have a normal amount of competitiveness and desire to win the Quidditch Cup, so they would try to pick the best players in the best combination, regardless of House. From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 5 22:32:51 2003 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (Jeralyn) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Entertainment Weekly Message-ID: <4767359.1057444379675.JavaMail.nobody@...> Just a quick FYI: For those of you who don't receive or read the magazine, Stephen King has a Review of OOtP in this week's issue. He agrees with all of us that these are not just "kid's" books, and he grees with me in finding this book the best of the series. Jeralyn, the Voicelady From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 01:23:17 2003 From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 01:23:17 -0000 Subject: OOP: Hermione & Krum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote: > > I really think that Krum is now part of the Order, and that > Hermione has been asked by Dumbledore to keep him up to date. > > Anyway, this theory satisfies me concerning Krum & Hermione's > > interaction at the end of GoF, and paves the way for Krum's > reentry > > in book 6 or 7. Does anyone else find this scenario plausable? Kris replied: > > My only disagreement with this statement comes from the fact that > Hermione, Harry, and Ron are not actually part of the Order. They > are informed of some of the things going on, but in reality I think > there is much more going on behind the scenes than what we see. I > don't think the kids realize how much is really being planned and > intercepted. But I do think Krum could very well be a part of the > Order. > > The other problem is that all Owl Post is being intercepted. > Hermione couldn't give Krum a lot of useful clear information. Not > without tipping Umbridge off. > > It's also just very possible that they are good friends. Hermione's > always been a little secretive about her personal life. This > situation may not be any different. She doesn't seem like the type > to brag that she would be writing him. I agree that it's possible that they are actually good friends and there may not be any more to the correspondance than that. However, I had expected that we would find out *something* about the resolution of Hermione & Krums GoF goodbye scene in OoP, and when it was never addressed it left me suspicious that there may be more to the conversation than we were led to believe at the time. I know that HRH aren't actually in the Order and that the Owl Post is being intercepted, but I thought that Hermione might just be letting him know what's going on at Hogwarts and slipping enough real information beneath the radar for him to make use of it. I admit that the inspection of Owl Post is a real problem with this theory, but I'm sure JKR is clever enough to have found a way around this (even if I'm not ). Jo Serenadust From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 01:39:49 2003 From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 01:39:49 -0000 Subject: OOP - US/UK difference spotted Message-ID: I'm in the midst of my 3rd reading (this time the UK version) and I came across something that stopped me in my tracks. A R E W E S T I L L D O I N G T H I S ? On page 205, Fred and George are telling the trio about the horrors of Fifth year and George says: "...If you care about exam results, anyway. Fred and I managed to keep our *peckers* up somehow." I immediately went to check my US version, since I was SURE that I'd have caught that expression if it was there and sure enough it reads: "Fred and I managed to keep our *spirits* up somehow." I'm appealing to the British listmembers to tell me whether the word *pecker* has the same meaning in the UK as it does here in the US. If not, then is this an expression in common usage in mixed company, say, in front of the vicar? Otherwise, I'll have to assume that the Scholastic editors are protecting tender American sensibilities from Fred & George's salty repartee. Jo Serenadust, rather amused and VERY glad she got the UK version, too From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 07:11:09 2003 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 08:11:09 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] OOP - US/UK difference spotted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jo said: << On page 205, Fred and George are telling the trio about the horrors of Fifth year and George says: "...If you care about exam results, anyway. Fred and I managed to keep our *peckers* up somehow." I immediately went to check my US version, since I was SURE that I'd have caught that expression if it was there and sure enough it reads: "Fred and I managed to keep our *spirits* up somehow." I'm appealing to the British listmembers to tell me whether the word *pecker* has the same meaning in the UK as it does here in the US. If not, then is this an expression in common usage in mixed company, say, in front of the vicar? Otherwise, I'll have to assume that the Scholastic editors are protecting tender American sensibilities from Fred & George's salty repartee. >> *** I would say that "pecker" has the same slang meaning in the UK as it does in the US, but it isn't used much. If I heard, for example, that the vicar got his pecker out at the village tea party, I'd know right away that it wasn't his talking parrot and that he would probably be transferred overseas to do missionary work. The phrase "keep your pecker up" does mean "keep your spirits up" but doesn't refer to the same sort of pecker. In this context, pecker apparently refers to the mouth (as in bird's beak/pecker) and holding up your head rather than staring at your shoes in misery. It's a rather old-fashioned turn of phrase that I would associate with the 1930s - 1950s. "Keep your chin up" is perhaps more common. So, Fred and George weren't experimenting with Engorgement Charms, but they managed to stay cheerful in the face of adversity. Neil From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 13:05:28 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:05:28 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] OOP - US/UK difference spotted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 01:39:49 -0000, "serenadust" wrote: >I'm in the midst of my 3rd reading (this time the UK version) and I >came across something that stopped me in my tracks. > >A >R >E >W >E >S >T >I >L >L >D >O >I >N >G >T >H >I >S >? > >On page 205, Fred and George are telling the trio about the horrors >of Fifth year and George says: "...If you care about exam results, >anyway. Fred and I managed to keep our *peckers* up somehow." >I'm appealing to the British listmembers to tell me whether the word >*pecker* has the same meaning in the UK as it does here in the US. >If not, then is this an expression in common usage in mixed company, >say, in front of the vicar? Otherwise, I'll have to assume that the >Scholastic editors are protecting tender American sensibilities from >Fred & George's salty repartee. This is what Webster's Third New Dictionary says: "chiefly Brit: COURAGE, SPIRITS - used chiefly in the phrase 'keep one's pecker up'" This is one meaning of "pecker", the one you had in mind was also mentioned, but it seems to have a different meaning in that phrase. Monika From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 13:27:57 2003 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 13:27:57 -0000 Subject: What does "genuine prediction" mean? (imported) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the reply, Pippin. I've delayed answering until I've finished rereading the book and mulling over things a bit. Pippin said: That Prof. Trelawney does not instruct her classes on the ways to distinguish Seeing from fortune-telling is understandable enough ;-). It also provides Rowling with an excuse for not telling us anything she thinks could remotely be mistaken for functional real world knowledge of how to predict the future.* I think we're just going to have to take Dumbledore's word that he knows a genuine prophecy when he hears one. However, we are told some of the properties of genuine predictions. Firenze said that "trivial hurts, tiny human accidents" are of no more significance to the wide universe than the scurryings of ants. (I guess he's not into chaos theory.) He says that the skies foretell only "great tides of evil or change." I (Naama) reply: I don't think that "what the skies foretell" and what human prophecies foretell necessarily refer to events of the same magnitude. In fact, when Firenze talks of the skies, he really does talk of very general trends ? for several years it seems that all they could learn from the skies was that there would be another war. Apparantly, with no further details. Now, the prophecy we hear, albeit vague and cryptic, *is* detailed. It's about specific people, it references a specific date and fairly specific events. Pippin: I think we are given this information so that we can understand Dumbledore's attitude toward the Prophecy. Why does he treat it as so important when it seems to be so vague? IMO, Dumbledore can say that the prophecy refers to Voldemort being vanquished "for good" because a genuine prophecy can't be about anything as trivial as a temporary defeat. Naama: I agree that a prophecy wouldn't refer to a temporary defeat. But it uses the term "vanquish". That doesn't have a temporary flavor, does it? Particularly as it goes on to refer to Voldemort's potential death. Pippin: Likewise, a missed opportunity to defeat Voldemort would be heartwrenching from our trivial human perspective, but not a sign of great change, and so not worthy of foretelling. Naama: >From the prophecy itself we learn that only one person can vanquish Voldemort. That that person fails (and dies) means that Voldemort will in fact win ? since he cannot be defeated otherwise. I should think it a sign of a very great tide of evil indeed! Pippin: Voldemort wouldn't see it that way, of course--he thinks he *is* the universe. From what I can see, he regards prophecy as a set of rules, and wants to know what they are so he can game the system. The White Witch made a similar error in the The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, when she thought she had vanquished Aslan by his own laws. This stuff is almost as squirrely as time travel, so I hope I have made myself clear here. I'm reminded that Diana Gabaldon said that the ambiguity of pre-destination versus free-will in her stories is purposeful, and reflects her opinion that people want it both ways. We want, she says, to feel that there is a grand plan unfolding in the universe and it will all come right in the end, and also to feel that our choices matter. Naama: I agree about the squirreliness of prophecy in general. However, in this case, I just don't think it applies. This prophecy is about the birth of a person with a certain unique potential. You say, it (whatever "it" was that spoke through Trelawney) can only know that Harry has the potential to vanquish Voldemort if "it" knows that this event actually will have happened in the future [will have had happened? ]. But why shouldn't a source of supernatural knowledge know of hidden, yet-to-be fulfilled potentials? If it knows the future, why can't it also know other stuff that we humans can't tell before it actually reveals itself? >From a different perspective, I also think that that's what JKR intends the prophecy to mean. She puts such strong emphasis on choice and free will. Harry has the potential, yes. But the real point, I think, will be whether he will choose to actualize it. Naama From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 14:21:16 2003 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 14:21:16 -0000 Subject: Ravished Umbridge? [imported] Message-ID: I've decided to import another message I posted on the main list: Umbridge and the centaurs. Exactly what did the centaurs *do* to her? Hem hem .In the hospital room, Umbridge appears deeply traumatized, yet with no visible physical injury. I don't want to sound too gross, but as far as I recall of Greek mythology, centaurs were connected with fertility rites (right?). Aren't there stories of centaurs sweeping into villages, taking with them the women and engaging in, umm, *fertility* rites? See where I'm going here? JKR *wouldn't* be hinting at what I think she's hinting at, right? Naama From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 18:49:21 2003 From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 18:49:21 -0000 Subject: What of Ronan? Message-ID: I was thinking that the Ministry aren't the only ones who've gone the route of not choosing so far. While Fudge and his people used denial to avoid choosing a side, the centaurs, who have had quite a bit of understanding about what's coming even since PS/SS, seem to have considered it somehow wise and noble to avoid choosing sides. T It's weird, they seem to consider it a lowly human conflict in which they have no stake, but considering what Dobby has said, the debates on which way the giants would go, and all the lessons about goblin rebellions Harry's sat through over the years, it seems like many other magical beings are directly affected by human conflicts. So why was Firenze treated so shabbily in PS/SS when he helped Harry, and the nearly murdered by his own people when he decided to help Dumbledore? I can't imagine that centaurs could have any desire to see Voldemort come back into power, since he would doubtlessly encroach on their territory (both physically and figuratively) sooner or later. Do they not care either way? I don't think that's the case. In PS/SS the other centaurs seemed to agree that what was coming was a Bad Thing, so they do have an opinion, but for some reason they refuse to do anything either way, and in fact, treat as criminal the one among them who chooses to act. So on first reading of OOP I pretty much shrugged and gave up hope that the centaurs would be of any help, but after rereading their bit in PS/SS, I've changed my mind. I think, in the end, at least one other centaur is going to join the fight, and possibly many, or even most. In PS/SS, Firenze declared that he set hismelf against what was lurking in the forest even if it meant working with the humans. While Bane was adamant that centaurs do not mix with humans, Ronan of the mournful voice seemed to accept that there might be good reasons for Firenze to do what he was doing. He interceded vaguely to that effect at the time, and quietly tried to dissuade the crowd from hurting Harry and Hermione in OOP. Granted, he was rather quickly silenced, but that sad slow voice of his makes me think he's somewhat disillusioned with always knowing what lies ahead and never doing anything about it. Fatalism doesn't naturally thrive. It either gives in to despair, or is rejected in favor of action. I think Ronan will choose action. It seems to be pride that keeps the other centaurs from wanting to cooperate with humans, and Ronan's portrayal leads me to believe that he's not all that bound by pride. So I think that he, at least, will eventually join the fight. But I don't think he'll be alone, at least not in the end. The very pride that seems to keep the centaurs in disdain of humans will eventually spur (no pun intended, I swear!) some of them into action, because sooner or later the fight will affect them directly. Voldemort's not going to leave a race of intelligent beings alone just because they don't care about the fight. So even if they don't fight alongside the humans, I imagine they'll eventually fight against Voldemort simply because they *will not* let themselves be considered to be doing anybody's bidding, including Voldy's. Kimberly who finds the cetaurs fascinating in spite of how stupid the movie made them look From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 20:41:45 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:41:45 -0000 Subject: Ravished Umbridge? [imported] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > > Umbridge and the centaurs. Exactly what did the centaurs *do* to > her? > Hem hem I saw your post on the Main List, and before that I saw another post (I don't remember whose) that cheerfully suggested that Umbridge, hater of all part-humans, was now going to have a part-Centaur baby. I imagine a half-centaur would be a silenus, but JKR depicted her Centaurs as so ... anti-taking-action ... that it's difficult to imagine them having sex at all, let alone as an act of violence ... From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 20:59:44 2003 From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:59:44 -0000 Subject: [OOP]: The Arch Room Message-ID: A couple of remarks about the arch room: 1. On p. 721 of the UK edition, Dumbledore refers to the Arch Room as "The Death Chamber." Evidently, walking through the arch (or being thrown through) must have been the means of legal execution at some time in the past. I don't remember any references in the books about executions having taken place in modern times, so the actual death penalty has presumably been replaced by the more "humane" punishments of being kissed by a dementor or life in Azkaban. 2. Something that puzzled me about the Arch Room was why some of the "sexumvirate" seemed to hear the voices behind the black veil, and some didn't. Harry, Neville, and Ginny became entranced and had to be dragged away, while Hermione and Ron did not. Luna heard the voices, but apparently did not have to be dragged away. This is not the same pattern as the ability to see Thestrals, so I wonder why each person reacted in the way they did. Any thoughts? -Jim Flanagan "All aboard for the good ship Harry/Luna!" From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 22:51:51 2003 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:51:51 -0000 Subject: UK adult editions Message-ID: A question for the British folks: Are the HP adult editions still popular/widely available in the UK, or do people choose the regular edition now that adult readership of the books is more common? (Did that make ANY sense?) Aloha, Kaitlin From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 6 23:49:18 2003 From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 23:49:18 -0000 Subject: Minor Typo? Message-ID: On p. 109 (UK), it says, "*Snape* might refer to their work as cleaning..." However, I don't see any reference to Snape saying anything about cleaning up to this point in the book. It would make more sense to say *Sirius* rather than *Snape*. Did I miss something? -Jim Flanagan "All aboard for the good ship Harry/Luna!" From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 7 00:38:42 2003 From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 00:38:42 -0000 Subject: Ravished Umbridge? [imported] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > Umbridge and the centaurs. Exactly what did the centaurs *do* to her? > Hem hem .In the hospital room, > Umbridge appears deeply traumatized, yet with no visible physical > injury. I don't want to sound too gross, but as far as I recall of > Greek mythology, centaurs were connected with fertility rites > (right?). Aren't there stories of centaurs sweeping into villages, > taking with them the women and engaging in, umm, *fertility* rites? > See where I'm going here? JKR *wouldn't* be hinting at what I think > she's hinting at, right? Yep, that thought occurred to me too, Naama. I was really hoping Umbridge would never be seen again after the centaurs carried her off, but obviously *something* very disturbing happened to her during her visit with the centaurs. However, given the centaurs attitude toward humans, I don't think that they would even consider sullying themselves by er...consorting with a human. Umbridge, in particular, is so revolting that I can't imagine that Bane or any of the rest of the ones we've met would even be tempted. Still, I wouldn't put it past JKR to have wanted to plant that particular image in the minds of her grown-up readers, just for the fun of imagining our reactions. Jo S. From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 7 02:26:40 2003 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:26:40 -0500 Subject: Snape and the Nicknames Message-ID: <005301c3442f$33e1e5e0$7e05a6d8@...> Apologies if this has been aired, I have not even remotely been following everything. Not even all the Snape stuff (gasp). Okay, I fail to see how Snape could have missed that Sirius called James "Prongs" in his memory. It was not the references they were making amongst themselves, which we can argue away as the Pensieve's ability to record the totality of the moment rather than the perspective of the rememberer. It was when Snape was right there and Lily had just refused to go out with James. Given that. I find it hard to credit that Snape could have known that Sirius called James "Prongs," and not think that Lupin was connected with that name at all. Given *that*--I find it beyond odd, now, the way Snape reacted when the Map insults him in PoA. Because he truly does not seem to think Lupin was a party to the Map or its insults. Or was he hoping to trip Lupin up and make him reveal himself? From JKR's comments, we now know that Snape is indeed interested in the DADA post; he doubtless considers himself an authority; why in the world would he consult Lupin whom he hates? Unless he was trying to trap him. My thoughts are not complete on this; I only noticed this a day or so ago in rereading. Any input? ~Amanda ----------------------------- Those who cannot hear the music, think the dancers daft. From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 7 03:51:57 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 03:51:57 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Nicknames In-Reply-To: <005301c3442f$33e1e5e0$7e05a6d8@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Apologies if this has been aired, I have not even remotely been following > everything. Not even all the Snape stuff (gasp). > > Okay, I fail to see how Snape could have missed that Sirius called James > "Prongs" in his memory. It was not the references they were making amongst > themselves, which we can argue away as the Pensieve's ability to record the > totality of the moment rather than the perspective of the rememberer. It was > when Snape was right there and Lily had just refused to go out with James. > > Given that. I find it hard to credit that Snape could have known that Sirius > called James "Prongs," and not think that Lupin was connected with that name > at all. > > Given *that*--I find it beyond odd, now, the way Snape reacted when the Map > insults him in PoA. Because he truly does not seem to think Lupin was a > party to the Map or its insults. Or was he hoping to trip Lupin up and make > him reveal himself? From JKR's comments, we now know that Snape is indeed > interested in the DADA post; he doubtless considers himself an authority; > why in the world would he consult Lupin whom he hates? Unless he was trying > to trap him. > > My thoughts are not complete on this; I only noticed this a day or so ago in > rereading. Any input? I see your point entirely, but I always had the distinct impression when reading PoA that Snape DID have knowledge of the nicknames they had used for each other in school, perhaps through overhearing little snippets of conversation like this. It seems strongly implied that he knew about these names when he suggests to Lupin in PoA that Harry got the map straight from 'the manufacturers.' He seems to be implying that Lupin himself provided Harry with the map to aid in his rule-breaking (and boy, do we get a glimpse of why he dislikes Harry's rule-breaking when we see into the Pensieve!). I think it's possible that he only heard the names in passing and wasn't completely clear which ones belonged to whom, with the possible exception of "Prongs." If he was particularly unclear about who was "Padfoot" and who was "Wormtail" that could have led to his finding out, when he was a DE, that one of the Potters' friends was a traitor, and when Sirius was later caught after supposedly killing Peter, that probably would have led him to believe that "Wormtail" (which may have been how Voldemort referred to Peter when others were around) was Sirius' name. That part is pure speculation, of course, but based on his reactions to various things in PoA, he seems to have been aware of all four nicknames, and he also seems to have been aware that the hump- backed witch statue was an entrance to some sort of secret passage (he even feels over the statue in a really weird way at one point). He obviously spent a lot of time following MWPP around, trying to get something on them. I think he found out quite a lot about them (and yet not quite enough) before Sirius tried to get him killed. This continuing frustration is something we see him vent at Harry repeatedly, especially at the end of PoA, when Sirius escapes and Snape declares, seemingly out of the blue, that Harry had something to do with it. He's right, of course. I wonder what kind of fit he threw when Dumbledore finally told him about that. ;) --Barb From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 7 03:32:13 2003 From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 23:32:13 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Minor Typo? References: Message-ID: <001a01c34438$5b4df980$9ddc5644@...> Jim Flanagan asked: On p. 109 (UK), it says, "*Snape* might refer to their work as cleaning..." However, I don't see any reference to Snape saying anything about cleaning up to this point in the book. It would make more sense to say *Sirius* rather than *Snape*. Did I miss something? There is an earlier reference. When Sirius first remarks to Harry about being of no use to the Order, he adds that Snape enjoys taunting him about it and even makes a point of asking how the *cleaning* is going. I know this only because that's as far as I've got in my rereading. Debbie "All aboard for the good ship Harry/Luna!" Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 7 16:25:30 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:25:30 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] [OOP]: The Arch Room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:59:44 -0000, "Jim Flanagan" wrote: >1. On p. 721 of the UK edition, Dumbledore refers to the Arch Room >as "The Death Chamber." Evidently, walking through the arch (or >being thrown through) must have been the means of legal execution at >some time in the past. Hm, wouldn't it have been easier just to AV those who were condemned to death than building this mysterious and complicated thing? There's something else I find odd about it, that is the fact that Nearly Headless Nick (just like Lupin) seemed to know exactly what was behind the veil. He told Harry that Sirius had "moved on" and wouldn't come back as a ghost. What does this mean? Didn't JKR say at some point we would learn why some people become ghosts and others not in Book 7, but that it was those who didn't die happy were prone to become ghosts? Sirius didn't exactly have a happy life, not even before Azkaban, so he would have been a good candidate for coming back. But if the arch really *was* the means of legal execution, maybe it was there to prevent the criminals from becoming ghosts? Just a (admittedly weird) thought. >2. Something that puzzled me about the Arch Room was why some of >the "sexumvirate" seemed to hear the voices behind the black veil, >and some didn't. Harry, Neville, and Ginny became entranced and had >to be dragged away, while Hermione and Ron did not. Luna heard the >voices, but apparently did not have to be dragged away. This is not >the same pattern as the ability to see Thestrals, so I wonder why >each person reacted in the way they did. Any thoughts? Interesting observation. If Neville wasn't part of the group, I'd say maybe it's because they directly dealt with Voldemort, while Hermione, Ron and Luna did not. But perhaps we still don't know everything about Neville, after all, the prophecy could have applied to him as well if Voldemort hadn't gone for Harry to mark him as his equal. Monika who isn't sure this makes a lot of sense... From simon.hp at owlfriend_of_hedwig.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 7 18:25:24 2003 From: simon.hp at owlfriend_of_hedwig.yahoo.invalid (Pigwidgeon) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:25:24 -0000 Subject: UK adult editions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kaitlin: > A question for the British folks: Are the HP adult editions still > popular/widely available in the UK, or do people choose the regular > edition now that adult readership of the books is more common? The adult edition of OotP is selling well. It is currently the second best selling book in the UK. I believe the ratio is about 6:1 (children:adult) being sold at the moment, but I could not find figures online to back this up (the figures were in The Times on Saturday, but not on their online equivalent). However this does not examine if there are any underlying reasons for this balance. I have a childrens edition, but would have preferred an adult one (I like the adult cover more). However, even though the shop had some, I was unable to get the adult edition at midnight on the 21st. It would have involved the shop trying to find a copy and I was just after getting out with a copy and to start reading. After the first couple of days of sales there have definitely been many copies of the books in the stores (literally piles of them everywhere). Though I did note that it was the childrens edition that was prominently displayed in most shops, with you having to search a bit harder to find the adult edition (though not half as hard as to find The Well of Lost Plots by Jasper Fforde on its first day of release). My weekend train trips agreed with the 6:1 ratio, but on a sample size of seven this is possibly best ignored (though they were all adults reading). Whether the adult versions of the other books are still selling well I am unsure. As I mention above, it seems difficult to find the data online. Certainly I am unsure where to look, as the places I tried all had only the positions and not numbers of books sold. Simon From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 7 22:53:24 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 22:53:24 -0000 Subject: UK adult editions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Pigwidgeon" wrote: > The adult edition of OotP is selling well. It is currently the second > best selling book in the UK. I believe the ratio is about 6:1 > (children:adult) being sold at the moment, but I could not find > figures online to back this up (the figures were in The Times on > Saturday, but not on their online equivalent). > > However this does not examine if there are any underlying reasons > for this balance. I have a childrens edition, but would have > preferred an adult one (I like the adult cover more). However, > even though the shop had some, I was unable to get the adult > edition at midnight on the 21st. It would have involved the shop > trying to find a copy and I was just after getting out with a copy > and to start reading. I also have a children's copy of the UK book, even though I also like the cover of the adult version better and could easily have ordered that version from Amazon UK. The only reason I didn't is that my other UK books are also the children's versions, and I just wanted my set to match. That might be another reason for folks buying the children's copies, even though they're adults--wanting their new book to match existing copies. --Barb From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 00:48:02 2003 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:48:02 -0000 Subject: [OOP]: The Arch Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" wrote: > A couple of remarks about the arch room: (Snip) > > 2. Something that puzzled me about the Arch Room was why some of > the "sexumvirate" seemed to hear the voices behind the black veil, > and some didn't. Harry, Neville, and Ginny became entranced and had to be dragged away, while Hermione and Ron did not. Luna heard the voices, but apparently did not have to be dragged away. This is not the same pattern as the ability to see Thestrals, so I wonder why > each person reacted in the way they did. Any thoughts? > > -Jim Flanagan > "All aboard for the good ship Harry/Luna!" Perhaps Harry, Neville, and Ginny haven't yet resolved the death, torture, and possession they've been through, while Luna has. Hermione and Ron haven't (as far as we know) witnessed death or torture. Luna seems to have come to terms with her mother's death (she seems to have no trouble talking about it, while Harry, Neville, and Ginny haven't mentioned--except for Ginny--their run-ins with Evil). Parker, finding reading easier the second time around From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 03:49:41 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 03:49:41 -0000 Subject: [OOP]: The Arch Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "harpdreamer" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" wrote: > > > A couple of remarks about the arch room: > (Snip) > > > > 2. Something that puzzled me about the Arch Room was why some of > > the "sexumvirate" seemed to hear the voices behind the black veil, and some didn't. Harry, Neville, and Ginny became entranced and had to be dragged away, while Hermione and Ron did not. Luna heard the voices, but apparently did not have to be dragged away. This is not the same pattern as the ability to see Thestrals, so I wonder why each person reacted in the way they did. Any thoughts? > > > > -Jim Flanagan > > "All aboard for the good ship Harry/Luna!" > > Perhaps Harry, Neville, and Ginny haven't yet resolved the death, > torture, and possession they've been through, while Luna has. > Hermione and Ron haven't (as far as we know) witnessed death or > torture. Luna seems to have come to terms with her mother's death > (she seems to have no trouble talking about it, while Harry, > Neville, and Ginny haven't mentioned--except for Ginny--their run- > ins with Evil). Actually, someone posted some fascinating information on my list concerning this. They noted that at the beginning, when they're on the school train, the same four who are sprayed with the Stinksap are the same four who can hear the voices when they're in the Arch Room. Ron and Hermione don't get sprayed with it--they were in the prefects' compartment and showed up later. (I noted here before that it was interesting that the six who are traveling in that compartment end up being the six who go to the Ministry.) In addition to this, someone else did some research on the roots of the words giving Neville's weird plant its name, and there seems to be a connection with feeling braver or something of that sort. I need to find the posts about this; it was really interesting, and folks were speculating that the plant gave an extra bit of daringness to the personalities of the four who were sprayed with the Stinksap, which could account for a load of things in OotP, from Harry's recklessness with Umbridge to Neville and Ginny's dueling abilities to Luna, a Ravenclaw, going on a rather Gryffindor-ish adventure to the Ministry. --Barb From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 04:45:12 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:45:12 -0000 Subject: Clues & Sirius Talk Message-ID: Did you notice that the person who came to see Brodrick Bode was "a very old stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet". Broderick got the plant from someone and a calendar with fancy hippogriff photos. Could this be some connection to Kreacher who has been around the hippogriff all this time? Neville is very important: Neville's mom keeps giving him empty Droobles Blowing Gum wrappers. Neville needed a Remembrall in Book One. What has Neville forgotten? Also in Book one, the Gryffindor House won only because Neville was awarded points at the end. This must foreshadow the need for Neville to help Harry save the day in Book 7. Draco cursed Neville's legs in Book One, Hermione also zapped him ,so he could not move. In Book 5 , his legs are zapped again. Something about Neville's legs is important! Neville also went with Harry and Malfoy into the Forbidden forest in book One. To all you Sirius fans out there. If Dumbledore can carry on conversations with a painting of Phineas Nigellus, then all he needs to do is give Harry a painting of Sirius Black to talk to when Harry needs encouragement. From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 06:42:16 2003 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 07:42:16 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Clues & Sirius Talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Randy writes >To all you Sirius fans out there.? If Dumbledore can carry on >conversations with a painting of Phineas Nigellus, then all he needs >to do is give Harry a painting of Sirius Black to talk to when Harry >needs encouragement. Ah, I've been thinking a lot about this one. I'm not sure whether it's possible. I have been wondering quite a bit about how portraits work, and it seems to me that because the paintings retain the memories and personalities of the subjects, the subjects must surely be there at some point to imbue the portrait, pensieve like, with the necessary qualities? It does not seem likely that a portrait of Sirius existed prior to his death. His parents were probably the only people who would have commissioned a portrait, and considering that they burnt his name off the family tree, they would hardly be likely to keep a portrait of the miscreant son hanging around. Unless - Dumbledore did this as a matter of course? That would make sense - in times of trouble and great danger, make sure that portraits have been done of *everyone* important. I can imagine Dumbledore having portraits of James, Lily and Sirius and not telling Harry, because he'd know that that's where Harry would end up spending most of his time.... Catherine From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 15:31:29 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:31:29 -0000 Subject: Centaurs; Bode's Visitor; Snape Knowing MWPP; Cleaning Reference; Hearing Voices Message-ID: Kimberly wrote: > I can't imagine that centaurs could have any desire to see > Voldemort come back into power, since he would doubtlessly > encroach on their territory (both physically and figuratively) > sooner or later. Do they not care either way? I think Bane answers this in PS/SS by stating "Centaurs are concerned with what has been foretold" (Ch. 15). It seems as if the centaurs believe that events will unfold as the heavens predict they will, and centaurs do not believe they should interfere with what they seem to think is the star-driven inevitable course of events. Randy wrote: > Did you notice that the person who came to see Brodrick Bode was "a > very old stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet". I wonder if it was Croaker. At the QWC in GoF, Arthur Weasley points out Bode and Croaker, both Unspeakables from the Department of Mysteries, to Harry et al. I've been wondering about those two ever since, especially since Arthur said "No idea what they get up to." On the re-read, I thought it was interesting how many hints JKR gave along the way that Bode was going to die. Such as being with "*Croak*er" at the QWC; described as having a "mournful" face and speaking in a "sepulchral" voice when he runs into Harry and Arthur on their mad dash to Harry's hearing; and described as "mournful" looking as he lay in St. Mungo's. Barb wrote: > It seems strongly implied that he knew about these names when he > suggests to Lupin in PoA that Harry got the map straight from 'the > manufacturers.' I've never thought that Snape recognized the nicknames on the map. I think if he had, he wouldn't have confronted Lupin about it in front of Harry, he would have had a private chat with Lupin about it instead. The fact that the interchange took place in front of Harry leads me to believe that Snape did not recognize the nicknames. Which then returns us to Amanda's original question of why Snape didn't put the pieces together when he saw the map. This is kinda lame, but could it be that Snape perhaps only heard the reference to "Prongs" that one time, and didn't connect it with the map many years later? Jim wrote: > On p. 109 (UK), it says, "*Snape* might refer to their work as > cleaning..." However, I don't see any reference to Snape saying > anything about cleaning up to this point in the book. It would make > more sense to say *Sirius* rather than *Snape*. Did I miss > something? I got stuck on this, too, but figured it out after some pondering. IMO, it's awkward ? you have to go back 30 pages to find Sirius' side reference to Snape asking him how the cleaning is going. Jim again: > Something that puzzled me about the Arch Room was why some of > the "sexumvirate" seemed to hear the voices behind the black veil, > and some didn't. Harry, Neville, and Ginny became entranced and had > to be dragged away, while Hermione and Ron did not. Luna heard the > voices, but apparently did not have to be dragged away. This is not > the same pattern as the ability to see Thestrals, so I wonder why > each person reacted in the way they did. Any thoughts? I immediately made the connection to the Thestrals as well ? I thought that perhaps those who have seen death would be the ones who could hear the voices behind the veil. However, Ginny's entrancement threw me since she can't see the Thestrals, which means she hasn't seen death. However, it doesn't state that Ginny could *hear* the voices ? Luna and Harry hear them, but Neville and Ginny were staring "entranced" at the veil. So while I'm still confused as to why Ginny is in this group, I still think it's possible that only those who have seen death can hear the voices. I have a strong suspicion that we're going to accompany Harry behind that veil in Book 7. JKR keeps hinting in interviews that Harry's going to die. While I can't believe she would really do this, perhaps (in a Christ-like allegory) he'll die and then return from the dead, but during the period he's dead, he'll see his mother, father and Sirius behind the veil. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 15:32:19 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:32:19 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Questions Message-ID: I'm wondering why some of the prophecy orbs are lit and some are dark. Could it be that once the prophecy is fulfilled, the light in the orb goes out? If so, this could be a way for the Ministry to keep track of which prophecies are still active. Also, why is there still a question mark on the Harry-Voldemort prophecy if Dumbledore is quite sure Harry is the subject of the prophecy since Voldemort marked him as his equal? If the name on the prophecy was changed after Voldemort attacked Harry as a baby, why was the question mark left on? Also, is there a requirement that all prophecies be recorded in the Department of Mysteries? Harry heard Trelawney's second real prediction about Pettigrew escaping and helping Voldemort return to power, but he wasn't asked to make a record of it. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 16:12:45 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 16:12:45 -0000 Subject: Some More Potential OoP Flints (also posted on HPfGU) Message-ID: Some more potential flints I've noticed in OoP: 1. It's described as a "tight fit" when Harry and Mr. Weasley are crammed into the telephone box to go down to the Ministry of Magic, but then Harry and five friends are able to fit into the box on the Sirius rescue mission? 2. In the Room of Requirement, a whistle appears when Harry wants one. Why then doesn't a Boggart appear when Harry thinks about how useful a Boggart would be in helping the DA learn the Patronus Charm? 3. Lupin is able to open the door to 12 Grimmauld Place by tapping it with his wand. So then why do the other members of the Order have to ring the doorbell? 4. Someone on the main HPfGU list astutely mentioned that the entire Hogwarts student body should know that Harry can conjure a Patronus since he did so at the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw Quidditch match in PoA. I found it also odd that the question Lupin asks Harry to verify his identify when the Guard comes to Privet Drive is "What form does your patronus take?" when there are lots of other people other than Harry (most notably, sons of DEs such as Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle) who also know this information. 5. There are fifty witches and wizards at Harry's hearing, and Arthur indicates his belief that this constitutes the entire Wizengamot. However, at Karkaroff's hearing in GoF, there were over 200 witches and wizards in attendance. 6. Harry refers to Lupin as being "sacked," but he actually resigned the DADA position in PoA. ~Phyllis From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 16:21:43 2003 From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:21:43 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Some More Potential OoP Flints (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1057681308.1222332F@...> Number three makes perfect sense - no worries about it at all. Remus clearly lives there and has since Sirius took posession of the house. Heidi, shipping sirius/remus since 2000 On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:12PM -0500, Phyllis wrote: > Real-To: "Phyllis" > > Some more potential flints I've noticed in OoP: > > 1. It's described as a "tight fit" when Harry and Mr. Weasley > are crammed into the telephone box to go down to the Ministry of > Magic, but then Harry and five friends are able to fit into the box > on the Sirius rescue mission? > 2. In the Room of Requirement, a whistle appears when Harry > wants one. Why then doesn't a Boggart appear when Harry thinks about > how useful a Boggart would be in helping the DA learn the Patronus > Charm? > 3. Lupin is able to open the door to 12 Grimmauld Place by > tapping it with his wand. So then why do the other members of the > Order have to ring the doorbell? > 4. Someone on the main HPfGU list astutely mentioned that the > entire Hogwarts student body should know that Harry can conjure a > Patronus since he did so at the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw Quidditch match > in PoA. I found it also odd that the question Lupin asks Harry to > verify his identify when the Guard comes to Privet Drive is "What > form does your patronus take?" when there are lots of other people > other than Harry (most notably, sons of DEs such as Malfoy, Crabbe > and Goyle) who also know this information. > 5. There are fifty witches and wizards at Harry's hearing, and > Arthur indicates his belief that this constitutes the entire > Wizengamot. However, at Karkaroff's hearing in GoF, there were over > 200 witches and wizards in attendance. > 6. Harry refers to Lupin as being "sacked," but he actually > resigned the DADA position in PoA. > > ~Phyllis > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From cj.estes at siriusgeologist.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 16:53:45 2003 From: cj.estes at siriusgeologist.yahoo.invalid (CJ Estes) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 09:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Some More Potential OoP Flints (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: <1057681308.1222332F@...> Message-ID: <20030708165345.3339.qmail@...> > On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:12PM -0500, Phyllis wrote: > > Real-To: "Phyllis" > >3. Lupin is able to open the door to 12 Grimmauld > Place by > > tapping it with his wand. So then why do the > other members of the > > Order have to ring the doorbell? --- Heidi Tandy wrote: > Number three makes perfect sense - no worries about > it at all. > > Remus clearly lives there and has since Sirius took > posession of the > house. He probably does live there, but the others don't have to use the doorbell. In fact at one point Sirius remarks that he's told the others NOT to use the doorbell, so as not to disturb dear old mum. So it's my impression that everyone could get in with a wand, they just use the doorbell to be polite. Carole ===== Are you coming to Nimbus - 2003? A symposium for afficionados, enthusiasts, scholars, and students of JK Rowling's Harry Potter books. July 17-20, 2003, in Orlando, Florida at Walt Disney's Swan & Dolphin Hotel. For information about this event: http://www.hp2003.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 17:36:35 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:36:35 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Some More Potential OoP Flints (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 16:12:45 -0000, "Phyllis" wrote: >Some more potential flints I've noticed in OoP: > >1. It's described as a "tight fit" when Harry and Mr. Weasley >are crammed into the telephone box to go down to the Ministry of >Magic, but then Harry and five friends are able to fit into the box >on the Sirius rescue mission? Doesn't make a lot of sense, unless it expands magically if more people try to get in. What bothers me more about it is that anyone seems to be able to get into the ministry at any time, be it day or night, provided that he knows which number to dial. You dial, you say your name, and you're welcome. I guess that's how the Death Eaters got in, too... >2. In the Room of Requirement, a whistle appears when Harry >wants one. Why then doesn't a Boggart appear when Harry thinks about >how useful a Boggart would be in helping the DA learn the Patronus >Charm? Maybe because a Boggart is a magical creature and can't be conjured up like an object? >3. Lupin is able to open the door to 12 Grimmauld Place by >tapping it with his wand. So then why do the other members of the >Order have to ring the doorbell? While I like Carole's explanation about the others wanting to be polite, I don't know if it's really polite to ring the bell if you know exactly that it will cause dear old mum to start screaming. ;-) But wasn't it mostly Mundungus who used the doorbell? This guy doesn't strike me as being overly sensitive. >4. Someone on the main HPfGU list astutely mentioned that the >entire Hogwarts student body should know that Harry can conjure a >Patronus since he did so at the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw Quidditch match >in PoA. I found it also odd that the question Lupin asks Harry to >verify his identify when the Guard comes to Privet Drive is "What >form does your patronus take?" when there are lots of other people >other than Harry (most notably, sons of DEs such as Malfoy, Crabbe >and Goyle) who also know this information. Did they really know what a Patronus was? Do they know now? Not everyone reads about advanced magic in books like Hermione, and it doesn't seem to be something that's on the schedule. Lupin said in PoA it was highly advanced magic, so I assumed most students wouldn't even know about it. >5. There are fifty witches and wizards at Harry's hearing, and >Arthur indicates his belief that this constitutes the entire >Wizengamot. However, at Karkaroff's hearing in GoF, there were over >200 witches and wizards in attendance. Maybe it was bigger at the time? There were certainly more and more important trials during that post-war era. Monika From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 17:55:40 2003 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 17:55:40 -0000 Subject: Some More Potential OoP Flints (also posted on HPfGU) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Phyllis wrote: > 4. Someone on the main HPfGU list astutely mentioned that the > entire Hogwarts student body should know that Harry can conjure a > Patronus since he did so at the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw Quidditch match > in PoA. I found it also odd that the question Lupin asks Harry to > verify his identify when the Guard comes to Privet Drive is "What > form does your patronus take?" when there are lots of other people > other than Harry (most notably, sons of DEs such as Malfoy, Crabbe > and Goyle) who also know this information. I don't think he had his Patronus fully developed at the point of the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw match. As it says on page 262 of the US version of PoA, "Something silver-white, something enormous, erupted from the end of his wand. He knew it had shot directly at the dementors but didn't pause to watch..." Also, on page 263, it says that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were wearing "long, black hooded robes," so it is possible that they themselves couldn't see the Patronus very well. > 5. There are fifty witches and wizards at Harry's hearing, and > Arthur indicates his belief that this constitutes the entire > Wizengamot. However, at Karkaroff's hearing in GoF, there were over > 200 witches and wizards in attendance. Maybe the other 150+ wizards were spectators? ~Kaitlin From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 17:59:33 2003 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 17:59:33 -0000 Subject: another tiny OOP flint (don't know if this was mentioned already) Message-ID: On page 557 of the US version, Cho asks Harry, "Remember the first time we played each other, in the third year?" (She's referring to the match where Wood told Harry not to be a gentleman and to knock Cho off her broom.) Well, when this match took place, Cho was in her FOURTH year, according to PoA, not her third. ~Kaitlin From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 18:26:20 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:26:20 -0000 Subject: Ravished Umbridge and Stinksap Inducing Bravery Message-ID: Naama wrote: > In the hospital room, Umbridge appears deeply traumatized, yet with > no visible physical injury. What if the centaurs turned her over to Grawp ? Barb wrote: > I need to find the posts about this; it was really interesting, and > folks were speculating that the plant gave an extra bit of > daringness to the personalities of the four who were sprayed with > the Stinksap, which could account for a load of things in OotP, > from Harry's recklessness with Umbridge to Neville and Ginny's > dueling abilities to Luna, a Ravenclaw, going on a rather > Gryffindor-ish adventure to the Ministry. This is really interesting, although I have a nit to pick ? Luna didn't actually get any stinksap on her, it just splattered her newspaper. Also, I don't see Luna as brave ? I see her more as having a complete absence of fear, which I believe is based in her overall "dottiness." To me, bravery is taking action which conquers your fear rather than not having the sense to be afraid in the first place. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 18:50:18 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:50:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's Patronus and DEs Entering the Ministry Message-ID: Kaitlin wrote: > I don't think he had his Patronus fully developed at the point of > the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw match. I think it was fully developed then, because Dumbledore told Harry later that he recognized it as a stag. I think the reason it's not identified as a stag during the match is because Harry didn't look at it ? he was focusing on catching the Snitch instead. Monika wrote: > What bothers me more about it is that anyone seems to be able to > get into the ministry at any time, be it day or night, provided > that he knows which number to dial. You dial, you say your name, > and you're welcome. I guess that's how the Death Eaters got > in, too... I assumed the DEs Apparated into the Ministry, since there don't appear to be any anti-Apparition charms (Arthur Apparates to work each day and Harry sees witches and wizards Apparating on his way to his hearing). I don't think anyone would have stopped Lucius Malfoy from Apparating into the Ministry anyway, since he's in league with Fudge. The laughable lack of security is intentional, IMO, and is meant to point out Fudge's complete denial of Voldemort's return. Although I wonder what it was that brought Fudge to the Ministry after the Voldemort-Dumbledore duel. There must have been something that triggered his arrival armed with his Aurors ? perhaps when a prophecy is removed from a shelf after hours, it triggers some sort of alarm? Or perhaps whatever the DEs did to neutralize whatever after-hours security existed triggered an alarm? Dumbledore told Voldemort the Aurors were on the way ? how did he know? Fudge seems surprised to see Dumbledore there, so presumably he wasn't acting on a tip-off from Dumbledore ? given Fudge's distrust of Dumbledore, he never would have acted on his advice anyway. Perhaps Dumbledore tipped him off by disguising himself as someone Fudge would trust? ~Phyllis From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 8 20:38:52 2003 From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 20:38:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's Patronus and DEs Entering the Ministry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" > I assumed the DEs > Although I wonder what it was that brought Fudge to the Ministry > after the Voldemort-Dumbledore duel. There must have been something > that triggered his arrival armed with his Aurors ? perhaps when a > prophecy is removed from a shelf after hours, it triggers some sort > of alarm? Or perhaps whatever the DEs did to neutralize whatever > after-hours security existed triggered an alarm? Dumbledore told > Voldemort the Aurors were on the way ? how did he know? Fudge seems > surprised to see Dumbledore there, so presumably he wasn't acting on > a tip-off from Dumbledore ? given Fudge's distrust of Dumbledore, he > never would have acted on his advice anyway. Perhaps Dumbledore > tipped him off by disguising himself as someone Fudge would trust? > Didn't Dumbledore send the statues to Fudge & Co. to warn them of what was happening? I can't remember exactly, but I thought a couple of them disappeared into the floo network and came back with Fudge. Did I imagine that bit? I'll have to check tonight. Kimberly From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 9 00:45:01 2003 From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 00:45:01 -0000 Subject: Derivation (?) of Mimbulus Mimbletonia Message-ID: There are no exact matches on the word stem "mimb-" in either Latin or Greek. Here are some theories on derivation of mimbulus mimbletonia, in decreasing order of likelihood: 1. Derived from English "remember." [Greek/Latin root] This would fit with it being a gift from a member of Neville's family. (If I am not mistaken, "remember" would be pronounced ra-MIM-bah in starchiest British R.P., which might explain the substitution of i for e.) I like the association with memory, because this would help explain how Harry (who was coated by stinksap while on the Hogwarts Express a few weeks later) was able to remember the number that had to be dialed to get into the MOM, after having heard Mr. Weasley mumble the number one time, ten months previously. In addition, Neville (who was also hit by the stinksap) is not portrayed as being particularly forgetful in OOP, unlike previous books. 2. Derived from English "mumble." [Germanic root] The plant makes "odd crooning noises" near the end of OOP. Presumably the significance of this would be as a tie-in to the voices behind the veil. Another poster noticed that only the people that had been hit by stinksap in the train compartment (Harry, Luna, Neville, and Ginny) were able to hear the voices in the arch room. 3. Derived from Greek "mimos" - mime. Doesn't seem likely to me. 4. Derived from Greek "membletai" - to be an object of care. Ditto #3. -Jim Flanagan From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 9 01:14:12 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 01:14:12 -0000 Subject: Derivation (?) of Mimbulus Mimbletonia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" wrote: > There are no exact matches on the word stem "mimb-" in either Latin > or Greek. Here are some theories on derivation of mimbulus > mimbletonia, in decreasing order of likelihood: [snip] The 'meaning' of the plant may have nothing to do with the derivation of the name, but with what it's been traditionally used for. This is often the case with plants. I went back on my list and found "opie's" information about this: > I found this on an herbal remedy website "Mimbulus is the remedy > for known fears. In other words whenever you are frightened of > something or you are anxious about something, and you can say what > that something is, then Mimbulus is the remedy to take. Mimbulus > fears are everyday fears - fear of public speaking, of the dark, > of aggressive dogs, or of illness or pain" > > Mimbulus is a plant that wards off fear, sort of. That makes sense > because Neville's plant aggressively defends itself when it's > frightened. The Mimbletonia part is a more of a mystery. Mim is a > greek root that means "to imitate". Tonia means "worthy of praise". > > So, put it all together and it's a plant that wards off fearful > things by imitating praiseworthy things. Maybe. I guess. We'd have > to hold JKR down and tickle it out of her if we wante to be sure. I thought this was very interesting because I had previously invented a potion in a fic that made someone feel absolutely safe whether they had any rational reason to feel that way or not, leading a person to sometimes do some rather foolhardy things that looked like bravery but were really a kind of ignorance of whether the act was dangerous or not. I didn't make up the plant name, which I got from a book on Gardener's Latin, and which was said to be used in concoctions the Native Americans in the South used for young men getting ready to go on their first hunts. If you looked at the name of the plant and knew its derivation, it would have no apparent connection to this "bravery" potion. --Barb From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 9 04:06:14 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 04:06:14 -0000 Subject: If it hurts, don't do that!_ OT fun Message-ID: By now we all have to be wondering about Voldemort's ability to think things through before acting. Book 5 is no exception, with the time spent on getting the prophecy in the first place. The consequent exposure of a lot of Death Eaters' identities to the Wizard population. The risk of exposing himself to Dumbledore ( He who cannot be easily removed). Voldemort has got to be visiting a Wizard Pschycologist at this point. Doctor's office somewhere on a side street to Nockturn Alley. Doctor Martin (DM): "Good Afternoon, Mr. Riddle...Oh, sorry, yes.... Mr. Notbenamed...sit down and relax on the couch..." Voldemort (V): "Ahem, yes, afternoon..." DM: "Are you still having those bad dreams about being in the boys dorms again?" V: "Yes. It's really starting to bother me that I can't keep my wand down whenever I pass a young coed..." DM: "You feel ashamed of those thoughts?" V: "Well, yes...I never really had a girlfriend in school. What with all the time I spent gathering forces for evil, I never had a chance to date, you know." DM: "I see. Does it bother you that you might have missed out on some important parts of life?" V: "Look, let's not persue this line of discussion, okay?" DM: "Yes, that's fine by me. Have you learned anything about your possible connection to the young boy at the school?" V: "I think he feels some of my feelings. I feel his presence during my moments of greatest pleasure and pain. I know I feel a weird sensation when he looks at those girly magazines..." DM: "Has it occured to you that you don't have to spend all of your efforts on getting rid of the boy?" V: "Well, yes... a little...I guess..." DM: "You know you lost your body the first time you attacked him. You became young again, but you lost your body again after he stabbed the diary. You wasted alot of time telling him your plans last year before you cast your spells. It made you look bad in front of all your Death Eaters..." V: " Well, yes... I have come to terms with that little embarrassment...The Diary was Lucius' idea...I had forgotten about that one anyway..." DM: "Maybe you should think about leaving the kid alone..." V: "I know, I know.... but he made me soooo mad when he didn't die the first time, and that curse really stung like a !@#$$&^%$!" DM: "Yes but now look what happened to you main group of Death Eaters being exposed to the Ministry of Magic." V: "Well, yes... I could have handled that better, I guess." DM: "Maybe it's time to think about starting a new career...." V: "Oh, please ! Who is going to hire me after I killed half of their relatives during the last invasion?" DM: " You know, you could move and try to start a new life somewhere else.." V: "Somewhere else? But where would I go? What would I do?" DM: "Frankly Voldy, I don't give a damn!" V: "Dumbledore! Not you again!!! Green flashes of light are seen on the glass of the 4th floor window. But the crowded street below takes no notice. From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 9 19:46:14 2003 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:46:14 -0000 Subject: OOP: O.W.L. predictions? Message-ID: Hey everyone, how do you think our darling 5th years will do on their O.W.L.'s? Here are some of my predictions: 1.) Harry will do surprisingly well in Potions, causing Snape to hate him even more because he will think Harry has cheated. 2.) Neville will surprise us all, showing his Gran that maybe he is just as good as his father. 3.) We'll find out that Draco "doesn't test well," and that Daddy Malfoy will have to make a few phone calls to the Ministry to sort things out. 4.) Hermione will either do so well that they skip her a grade or have her teach a class, OR she will fail one of her O.W.L.s and it will be a tragedy for her. (Sidebar: Did you notice that her mistake in rune translations was substituting "defense" for "partnership"? I think something suspicious will arise from that.) 5.) I don't know about Ron. I think he will do kinda average--not as poorly as the twins, but not as good as the older brothers. What do you all think? ~Kaitlin From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 11 16:41:45 2003 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:41:45 -0000 Subject: A Gleam Thought Message-ID: I had a thought. About the gleam. When Dumbledore had the "gleam of triumph" in his eyes, it was because the use of Harry's blood had "built in" a weakness in Voldemort's new body and/or mode of existence, which made his ultimate defeat either more possible, or simply possible. We had all thought this, I think. New thought: When he looked old, seconds later, it was because this was final, incontrovertible proof that Harry *was* the child in the prophecy, and possibly Dumbledore, who loves him, had held out a shred of hope that Harry would be spared. Up until right then. Thoughts? Sorry if you've covered this, I have in no way been keeping up. ~Amanda From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 11 17:27:49 2003 From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:27:49 -0000 Subject: More OoP FLINTS/ Inconsistencies? Message-ID: (All quotes are from the UK edition of OoP also posted on the Main list). Without further explanation, the following appear to have FLINT-like qualities: 1) Harry's Monday timetable: Harry has History of Magic followed by Double Potions in the morning. Divination and double Defence against the Dark Arts in the afternoon. To me, the phrase "double" means that it is two lessons together. This appears to be confirmed by JKR as on p. 214 Harry thinks that "the one good thing to be said for (the Monday afternoon Divination lesson) was that it was not a double period". This is Brit-speak for a double length lesson. History of Magic should be only one lesson. Yet, Harry "suffered an hour and a half's droning on the subject of giant wars" p. 207. Then for Double Potions which should be double the length of History of Magic, Snape says to the class "You have an hour and a half start". Admittedly, Snape had spent a few minutes talking to them beforehand, but the timings do not add up properly. 2) When Harry & co touch the Portkey and are transferred to Grimmauld Place after Mr Weasley's attack "they were of course still in their pyjamas" p. 421. Ginny even asks Sirius "Can you lend us cloaks or anything". Yet, on p. 425 "their trunks had arrived from Hogwarts while they were eating lunch so they could dress as Muggles they changed out of their robes into jeans and sweatshirts". Yet, until the trunks arrived, they didn't have any robes to change into. 3) This one is an unexplained inconsistency; did Harry serve his third week's worth of detentions "awarded" for his Quibbler interview? Is so, where and when? On the night he was given the detention, he was in the Gryffindor Common room, not in detention. Of course, he could have done the detentions later. His first detention was after all served the day after it was given, but the detentions are not mentioned again nor where he had to do them. When Harry has to go to Umbridge's office after Dumbledore went AWOL, it is sometime after the Quibbler incident, so he should have had the detentions by then. But, "Umbridge's office, so very familiar to Harry from his many detentions, was the same as usual except .his Firebolt and Fred and George's Cleansweeps". This seems to indicate that he had not seen the brooms since they were confiscated as Umbridge had said "I shall keep them safely in my office" p. 369. He could have done the detentions elsewhere, but as they would have interfered with both his Occlumency and DA lessons and yet they are never mentioned again, I believe that JKR simply forgot about them ? or Umbridge did, but that I cannot believe. Ali From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 11 18:37:22 2003 From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:37:22 -0000 Subject: OoP: Red Flags/Red Herrings Message-ID: I posted a Red Flag/Red Herring list on the HPFGU-main board waaaay back in May 2001 Here's a partial RF/RH list (so far) for OoP 1. Chapter 5 Electric Phenomenon (C5-EP) Uncle Vernon grabs Harry but lets go due to what seems to be an electric current running through Harry's body. Is the C5-EP a yet-to-be-identified curse/hex/jinx/charm? Is it an established curse/hex/jinx/charm or is it something Harry has formulated himself? OR is the C5-EP the manifestation of Lily's Protection? At any rate, Harry seems to have demonstrated it before, specifically in PS/SS Battle with Quirrell. Will the C5-EP be used in defeating Voldemort? 2. Neville's mum's candy wrappers Any significance in this? Is this too some kind of protection spell? 3. Okay, this was on the list from May 2001, Opals. Cursed opal necklace in CoS, Madame Maxime's opal necklace (GoF), the bottle with a large opal on the stopper in the Black House (OoP) The opal references might be a herring (most likely IS a herring). But they seem to be mentioned more that other precious stones in the series.... 4. Founder's memorabilia Slytherin left his basilisk. Gryffindor left his hat (the Sorting Hat) and his sword. Did Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff leave anything behind and will they be significant in defeating Voldemort. 5. The Hogwart's motto Is it a cute motto or is it an important clue? ~Milz From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 11 18:45:32 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:45:32 -0000 Subject: FILK: You're Dolores Jane (also posted on HPfGU) Message-ID: To the tune of "You're Sixteen" by Ringo Starr You come on really funny, like poison and honey Lips with a cough like a whine You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you weren't mine You're all fluffy cardigans and Alice bands, ooh, we're not your fans Toad-like eyes that bulge so fine You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you weren't mine You're my enemy, you're the one I've been fearing We've hated each other since the day of my hearing You touched my hand, my scar went pop Ooh, when we argued I could not stop You walked out of my nightmares and into my school Now you're the devil divine You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you weren't mine You're my enemy, you're the one I've been fearing We've hated each other since the day of my hearing You touched my hand, my scar went pop Ooh, when we argued I could not stop You walked out of my nightmares and into the forest Now you're the centaurs' new sign You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you weren't mine You're Dolores Jane, so hideous, and I wish you weren't mine You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you weren't mine All not mine, all not mine, all not mine All not mine, all not mine, all not mine ~Phyllis btw, this is my first filk! From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 12 01:02:07 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Major Spoilers.... Some Sirius Music!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030712010207.6531.qmail@...> Bravo, Bravo to Phyllis for the Umbridge song! She always makes me think of that Elvis song... "Don't Be Cruel" DJ takes to microphone....I'd like to dedicate the following to Penny and Carole and all you lovely ladies out there in cyberspace.... After reading all the posts on this "old crowd" list, I feel we should follow this one up with an old Beatles' tune: sung to the tune of Hey, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away! By Lennon & McCartney Hey, She Just Can't Kill off Sirius Black! words by Randy Estes Here I stand book in hand Just got back from the mall. Now he's gone I can't go on Feelin' two foot small. I read Book four and yelled for more I waited three long years Then I find she's lost her mind I'm fighting back the tears! Hey, She just can't kill off Sirius Black! Hey, She's got to bring my Sirius Back! Waited in line to get Book five I stayed up way too long Then I read that my baby's dead How could things go so wrong? How can she say to me Harry will find a way. I don't care cause it's just not fair Sirius Black must stay! Hey, She just can't kill off Sirius Black! Hey, She's got to bring my Sirius Back! JKR, wherever you are You've got some explaining to do! Listen hon, our Fanfics aren't done And he's our favorite dude! Hey, You just can't kill off Sirius Black! Hey, Go find some way to bring him back! Hey, You just can't kill off Sirius Black! Hey, Find a way to bring Padfoot Back! musical interlude.... JKR's response... sung to the tune of We Can Work it Out by the Beatles "I Just Wrote Him Out!" words by Randy Estes Try to see it my way I could get it right and still you'd think that its all wrong! Why should I do it your way? If I left him in, then these books would all be twice as long! What's this all about? I just wrote him out! These books aren't that short and there's no time For fussing and fighting my friends. I have always thought these characters were mine So I will ask you once again. Try to see it my way Only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong. It's not your story anyway And who's this idiot who keeps writing these stupid songs! :0) What's this all about? I just wrote him out! These books aren't that short and there's no time For fussing and fighting my friends. I have always thought these characters were mine So I will ask you once again. Try to see it my way I'm the one in charge and there are things that you don't know. Why should I do it your way? My husband's getting jealous and said that Padfoot's got to go! What's this all about? I just wrote him out! music fades...."That's another back to back hit request on WJKR ...All Potter....All the time...." Red Eye Randy signing off... --- Phyllis wrote: > To the tune of "You're Sixteen" by Ringo Starr > > You come on really funny, like poison and honey > Lips with a cough like a whine > You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you > weren't mine > > You're all fluffy cardigans and Alice bands, ooh, > we're not your fans > Toad-like eyes that bulge so fine > You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you > weren't mine > > You're my enemy, you're the one I've been fearing > We've hated each other since the day of my hearing > You touched my hand, my scar went pop > Ooh, when we argued I could not stop > > You walked out of my nightmares and into my school > Now you're the devil divine > You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you > weren't mine > > You're my enemy, you're the one I've been fearing > We've hated each other since the day of my hearing > You touched my hand, my scar went pop > Ooh, when we argued I could not stop > > You walked out of my nightmares and into the forest > Now you're the centaurs' new sign > You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you > weren't mine > You're Dolores Jane, so hideous, and I wish you > weren't mine > You're Dolores Jane, you're hideous, and I wish you > weren't mine > All not mine, all not mine, all not mine > All not mine, all not mine, all not mine > > ~Phyllis > btw, this is my first filk! > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 12 14:32:54 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:32:54 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Harry's Patronus and DEs Entering the Ministry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:50:18 -0000, "Phyllis" wrote: I meant to reply to this earlier, but somehow forgot it was still waiting in my inbox... >I wrote: > >> What bothers me more about it is that anyone seems to be able to >> get into the ministry at any time, be it day or night, provided >> that he knows which number to dial. You dial, you say your name, >> and you're welcome. I guess that's how the Death Eaters got >> in, too... Phyllis replied: >I assumed the DEs Apparated into the Ministry, since there don't >appear to be any anti-Apparition charms (Arthur Apparates to work >each day and Harry sees witches and wizards Apparating on his way to >his hearing). I don't think anyone would have stopped Lucius Malfoy >from Apparating into the Ministry anyway, since he's in league with >Fudge. The laughable lack of security is intentional, IMO, and is >meant to point out Fudge's complete denial of Voldemort's return. After rereading the chapter about the hearing, I remember now that visitors are asked to hand over their wands before they are let in, at least during daytime, when there are security guards around. But if anyone can Apparate in, why bother with this weird telephone box? Of course Harry can't Apparate, and we know from GoF a lot of adult wizards don't bother with it because it seems to be a bit dangerous, but if anyone can Apparate into the Ministry, the visitor's entrance is utterly superfluous. We also know from a chat with JKR that the Ministry is keeping tabs on people Apparating, and that's why Sirius never tried to Apparate anywhere, and now there are about a dozen Death Eaters Apparating into the Ministry, some of them wanted for arrest? Maybe security is down during night hours when the building is empty? A bit unlikely, since there are quite some items of interest to Voldemort stored there. >Although I wonder what it was that brought Fudge to the Ministry >after the Voldemort-Dumbledore duel. There must have been something >that triggered his arrival armed with his Aurors perhaps when a >prophecy is removed from a shelf after hours, it triggers some sort >of alarm? It would make sense if they had some sort of alarm system installed. It would be stupid if they hadn't IMHO. > Or perhaps whatever the DEs did to neutralize whatever >after-hours security existed triggered an alarm? Dumbledore told >Voldemort the Aurors were on the way how did he know? Fudge seems >surprised to see Dumbledore there, so presumably he wasn't acting on >a tip-off from Dumbledore given Fudge's distrust of Dumbledore, he >never would have acted on his advice anyway. Perhaps Dumbledore >tipped him off by disguising himself as someone Fudge would trust? Or maybe Dumbledore told Kingsley or Tonks to tip him off? They work for the Ministry, so Fudge would trust them. And he certainly doesn't know that Kingsley has been covering up for Sirius for a year now, being a member of Dumbledore's crowd. Remember Kingsley isn't part of the old crowd but has been hired when the order reformed. Harry is told how important it is to have spys in the ministry because Voldemort will have them. Monika From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 12 14:32:54 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:32:54 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] OoP: Red Flags/Red Herrings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:37:22 -0000, "Milz" wrote: >3. Okay, this was on the list from May 2001, Opals. Cursed opal >necklace in CoS, Madame Maxime's opal necklace (GoF), the bottle with >a large opal on the stopper in the Black House (OoP) > >The opal references might be a herring (most likely IS a herring). >But they seem to be mentioned more that other precious stones in the >series.... This doesn't really surprise me. Opals have been said to have magical powers for many centuries, magicians liked to use them for various purposes. I have just done a (very) quick Google search and stumbled over the following webpage: http://seemall.com/gems/opal2.html There's more about opals to find there, but this was the most interesting bit (taken from the above mentioned page): -- begin citation -- >|Black opals are the tools of choice for magicians >|and wiccans for power projecting stones. Often worn >| with special shapes of gold jewelry to further enhance >|their magical properties and receptive or projective powers. >| They have been known for their projective powers for >|over fifteen centuries and have been used for their good >|luck bringing abilities. Anciently they have been worn near >|the heart on necklaces made of gold to ward off evil, >|protect one from the evil eye, worn by travelers for safe >|journeys to far away lands. -- end citation -- They are also said to have protective powers for travelling astrally. Carole, if you are reading this, I know we *did* discuss opals over at the Outlandish voices, but I couldn't find anything "substantial" in the archives, though I'm sure someone posted a very insightful message about the properties of opals (or maybe I'm just dreaming, or it has been deleted for being OT). Maybe you remember it, too? Monika From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 13 02:57:22 2003 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:57:22 -0500 Subject: Fw: Nobel Prize for JK Rowling Message-ID: <017e01c348ea$7bdaf480$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- I'm forwarding this info here, in case anyone is interested. I'm not convinced this is terribly effective, but it is interesting all the same. Penny ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Downey" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:51 AM Subject: Nobel Prize for JK Rowling > > Ms. Linsenmayer, > > Greetings! I just thought I'd take a moment and drop you a note about > my new project, which is initiating a world-wide petition effort to > convince the Nobel Prize Committee to acknowledge JK Rowling's > contribution with the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2004. You can find > out all the details at http://www.nobelprizeforjo.com/ > > I note in your Nibus 2003 bio that you're involved in the works of Laura > Ingalls Wilder. In my book conservation practice I've had the honor of > doing extensive conservation work on the Wilder family bible, as well as > Laura's personal bible and several other of her books. Small world, > isn't it? > > Well, good luck with the symposium. If you have the chance, and would > be so kind, any help that you can give to promote the petition drive > would be greatly appreciated. > > Best wishes... > > Jim Downey From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 13 10:35:50 2003 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 10:35:50 -0000 Subject: New database of people already invited to The Old Crowd Message-ID: Greetings all, I've created another database, which lists all the people invited to this list so far and the dates they joined up (if at all). If you are considering proposing more names, please check the new database before adding names/addresses to the Invitations database. Alternatively, you could email me and I'll let you know. Thanks, Neil From insanus_scottus at insanus_scottus.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 13 18:13:42 2003 From: insanus_scottus at insanus_scottus.yahoo.invalid (Scott) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:13:42 -0000 Subject: DEs Entering the Ministry (and Sturgis Podmore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Phyllis wrote: "I assumed the DEs Apparated into the Ministry, since there don't appear to be any anti-Apparition charms (Arthur Apparates to work each day and Harry sees witches and wizards Apparating on his way to his hearing). I don't think anyone would have stopped Lucius Malfoy from Apparating into the Ministry anyway, since he's in league with Fudge." --I got the impression that, although there is no canon to back this up, a person could apparate ONLY into the atrium. After all Harry sees a lot of people coming into the MoM, but if they could would they not just apparate to their desks/offices? And what's the good of guarding the DoM door if someone can just apparate directly into the room of Prophecy? I think it makes sense that the Atrium is a terminus of sorts for coming-and going; therefore, if the DE's apparated they would've done so into the Atrium. I don't think they used the phone-booth. Monika wrote: "Maybe security is down during night hours when the building is empty? A bit unlikely, since there are quite some items of interest to Voldemort stored there." --Yes as Phyllis pointed out this is *exactly* the point. If you don't believe that Voldemort's returned why are you going to have security against him? It's part of the delicious irony that fills these books. The Order had to hide under invisibility cloaks and go about guarding the DoM in a very secretive way. If the ministry had found out what they were up to if would have been hell to pay, and Fudge would have painted them as delusional. BUT a group of most- wanted Death Eaters can walk right in, because, after all, the MoM won't admit that *they* are a threat. "Although I wonder what it was that brought Fudge to the Ministry after the Voldemort-Dumbledore duel. There must have been something that triggered his arrival armed with his Aurors ? perhaps when a prophecy is removed from a shelf after hours, it triggers some sort of alarm?" --Could it have been Harry et al. going in via the phonebooth (this had to have registered *somewhere* since they got those nifty badges) that triggered the alarm? Why wasn't there a member of the Order standing guard as usual? And speaking of members of the Order...why did no one see Sturgis as a great security risk? After all he had shirked his duties several times. Hermione makes the assumption that he was under the Imperius Curse when he tried to break into the DoM, but we don't have real proof of that. It seems to me that it's just as likely he could have been a Voldemort spy in the Order, or even if he wasn't (and was under Imperius) it seems like a DE or someone would've pressed him to see what he was doing. Find out about the Order... Then again maybe they *have*. They can't get to Grimmauld place because even if they know *where* it is they don't know it from Dumbledore, and therefore couldn't gain access (that's how Fidelius works [right?]). I just don't see why everyone wrote off Sturgis. There seems to be more than meets the eye there (if you ask me). Well I could've missed something. I often do. Scott From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 13 19:00:01 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 19:00:01 -0000 Subject: DEs Entering the Ministry (and Sturgis Podmore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > And speaking of members of the Order...why did no one see Sturgis > as a great security risk? After all he had shirked his duties > several times. I must re-read, but I have the impression that when Sturgis was supposed to be on duty and was missing, it later turned out that he was missing because he was lying unconscious and injured at the Ministry: Not His Fault. From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 14 00:20:02 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: DEs Entering the Ministry (and Sturgis Podmore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030714002002.32489.qmail@...> I'm sorry, excuse me for being blasphemous to the cannon.... But what kind of a name is Sturgis Podmore? Is there really such a name as Sturgis? Sounds kind of fishy to me!!! As for the Harry Potter rescue mission and the lack of any security at the Ministry of Magic, I think JKR got a little too lax here. Even a quick comment made by someone at the end of the novel would have been sufficient to explain the lack of any guards on duty. Everyone who reads this has to think "where are the guards?" How about a few lifeless bodies or tied up wizards found during the errol flynn battle? It's not a flynt. It's just lack of tension or difficulties in the way of Harry and his friends when we get to the big finale. I think she did not know how to work the guards versus the kids acting like heroes, so she just left all of the confrontation scene out. Someone else pointed out the ending of book one as the analogies for the seven books. This one was the troll laying on it's side. I think alot of fans we feel this book is the dead troll of the seven. I do look forward to the complicated potions riddle as a model for the next book's ending. Red Eye Randy who is feeling a bit uppity today As he spins his magical eye around to catch his youngest son provoking another fight with his siblings! --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Scott" > > wrote: > > > And speaking of members of the Order...why did no > one see Sturgis > > as a great security risk? After all he had shirked > his duties > > several times. > > I must re-read, but I have the impression that when > Sturgis was > supposed to be on duty and was missing, it later > turned out that he > was missing because he was lying unconscious and > injured at the > Ministry: Not His Fault. > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From tim_regan82 at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 14 23:19:43 2003 From: tim_regan82 at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:19:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledad's Introduction Message-ID: Hi All, Wow, how exciting ? an invitation to join a secret society. That doesn't happen every day. Do we have a special handshake? I've rolled up one trouser leg in preparation for my first post. Here goes ... ***Name: Tim Regan ***Nicknames/IDs: Kropotkin or Bakunin (on AlphaWorld, OnLive, CommunityPlace etc) fourthirtythree (on the Zone) Darth Timmy (on xbox Live) tim_regan82 (on hotmail and messenger) 11720668 (on ICQ) dumbledad (on yahoo, nntp, plus anything else recent) ***Age & Birthday: Born September 27 1965, so I'm 37. A nurse at a blood donor session whose birthday was the end of September told me that she saw more people born then than she would expect. When I pointed out that it's nine months after Christmas, she blushed. ***Family: I started dating Kate (my wife) when I was 17. We have two kids (Megan was born in February 1993 and William on Christmas Day 1994). They are all HP fans. My Mum and Dad were teachers but are now retired. My brother and sister live in London. My sister-in-law and her family are HP fans too. ***Homes, Education, & Jobs I grew up in Essex. Moved to Yorkshire for my first degree in Maths. Then off to Sussex for a terrible year as an accountant (but the people were fun). Stayed in Sussex for my doctorate in Theoretical Computer Science and then moved to Suffolk to work in British Telecom's research labs. I moved to the Seattle area to work for Microsoft Research in December 2000. Most of my research has been on social software. Now (well on August 7) we fly back home to England. I've no job lined up and feel alternately brave / wise / foolish / scared depending what mood I am in. I guess Woodbridge in Suffolk is where I've felt most at home as an adult. ***Other things we might want to know about you: Ovo-lacto-vegetarian; raised a Quaker but left in 1994 to live more honestly as an atheist; left wing but affected by Thatcher and a childhood belief in anarchism. ***Posting habits: Very spasmodic. If I'm snowed under at work, with important deadlines looming, I tend to start posting a lot as an avoidance tactic! My first posts are: HPFGU 23 April 2002 #38069, HPFGU- OTChatter 15 July 2002 #11325, and alt.fan.harry-potter 23 Jan 2002. I feel an imposter here ? but thanks for the invite :-) ***First contact with Harry Potter: Just after PoA came out a Scottish uncle of mine, who lives in Edinburgh, bought my kids the first three books. Megan read the first at school and at home and started the second (I don't think she finished). Then the film came out and we all went to see it. I was amazed at how good the story was so read the books to myself and as bedtime reading for the kids. I love reading them aloud to the kids, though I wish I was better at some of the accents (my Hagrid accent drifts worryingly towards Pakistan via Wales) and I wish I hadn't chosen so many raspy voices. Sections with Dobby, Sirius, or Mad-Eye in leave me horse! My Dumbledore and Snape voice are stolen from the film. The kids really love my Trelawney voice and my Dobby voice. Meg recons I'm better than Stephen Fry and Jim Dale :-) ***Favourite Potter things: I like PoA best. Then there are great things about PS, GoF, and OoP so I cannot choose between them. Although I love CoS too, it's my least favourite. Even though the films are pale reflections I enjoyed them. I preferred the first. I have great hopes for Cuaron. My other favourite Potter things are HPfGU, HPfGU-OTC, a Dumbledad beard made for me by Kate, some pensieves I did as a craft project with the kids, and some chopsticks we use as wands when dressing up. ***Other interests/activities: Running, cycling, swimming, cooking, hiking with our dog, camping, ***Current/recent reading: Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" graphic novels, Dicken's "Great Expectations", Neil Astley's poetry anthology "Staying Alive", plus some work stuff: "The Myth of the Paperless Office" and "ActionScript for Flash MX: The Definitive Guide". ***Current/recent listening: Britten's opera "Gloriana", Fatboy Slim's "Halfway between the gutter and the stars", Robbie Williams "Escapology", a Gong compilation CD, "Late Junction" on BBC Radio 3, and "Critical List" on BBC Radio 2. ***Current/recent viewing: Tour de France. Favourite TV ever was GBH starring Robert Lindsay, and the Clangers. Favourite recent film was "Frida". Cheers, Dumbledad. From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 15 03:26:26 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 03:26:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledad's Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > When I pointed out that it's nine months after Christmas, she > blushed. What's so erotic about Christmas? > and some chopsticks we use as wands when dressing up. I think they'd be smaller wands than any specified in canon. What do people think about the proper size for a wand? From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 15 12:57:33 2003 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:57:33 -0000 Subject: DEs Entering the Ministry (and Sturgis Podmore) In-Reply-To: <20030714002002.32489.qmail@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes wrote: > > As for the Harry Potter rescue mission and the lack of > any security at the Ministry of Magic, I think JKR got > a little too lax here. Even a quick comment made by > someone at the end of the novel would have been > sufficient to explain the lack of any guards on duty. > Everyone who reads this has to think "where are the > guards?" How about a few lifeless bodies or tied up > wizards found during the errol flynn battle? > > It's not a flynt. It's just lack of tension or > difficulties in the way of Harry and his friends when > we get to the big finale. I think she did not know > how to work the guards versus the kids acting like > heroes, so she just left all of the confrontation > scene out. > There were no guards there, not because JKR didn't know how "work the guards versus the kids", but because the Death Eaters made sure that the way was clear for Harry to reach the prophecy. Not only would a guard hinder Harry reaching the prophecy room, but Harry would, in all probability, have tried to persuade the guard that Sirius was in mortal danger. Which would immediately destroy all their plans, since the guard might have raised the alarm. It was imperative for Voldemort's plan that Harry's entry into the Ministry would be unnoticed by Ministry officials. Lucius probably entered the Ministry (he was a prviliged visitor there, remember) and Stunned the guard, or otherwise put him out of commission. Not a very interesting part of the narrative, I think. Personally, I have no problem with JKR leaving it untold. Naama From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 15 15:37:42 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:37:42 -0000 Subject: Dumbledad's Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" > wrote: > > When I pointed out that it's nine months after Christmas, she > > blushed. > > What's so erotic about Christmas? It's probably not 'erotic' so much as a time when people have a holiday from work and it's cold, so they might take advantage of engaging in certain indoor 'hobbies' more often or be less careful about preventing new arrivals from coming in nine months' time. Actually, I'd always heard that the most babies are born in the northern hemisphere in the month of November, which is both nine months after February (when Valentine's Day falls) and nine months after what is, in many places, the coldest part of winter (cold weather is supposed to be better for male fertility than hot weather). > > and some chopsticks we use as wands when dressing up. > > I think they'd be smaller wands than any specified in canon. What > do people think about the proper size for a wand? What's so erotic about Christmas, proper wand size...We'll have to start rating this group NC-17 before long... --Barb From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 15 16:47:52 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:47:52 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dumbledad's Introduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 03:26:26 -0000, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: >--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" >wrote: >> and some chopsticks we use as wands when dressing up. > >I think they'd be smaller wands than any specified in canon. If I remember well, Umbridge's wand is described as being unusually short. Maybe no longer than a chopstick? SCNR >What do >people think about the proper size for a wand? We haven't seen many wands so far, but in general, they seem to be at least seven inches long. At least we aren't told Harry tries a shorter one at Ollivanders. Lily's was ten and a quarter inches, James' eleven inches. Harry's wand is eleven inches long, too. Hagrid's seemed to be unusually long (16 inches), but he's half giant. Let's see: the chopsticks in my kitchen drawer are 26 cm long, that's roughly 10 inches, the proper size for a wand, though I'd say they are a bit thin for a wand. ;) Monika From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 15 17:35:09 2003 From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dumbledad's Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715173509.92214.qmail@...> "What are you doing, dear?" "Measuring chopsticks." "Uh, what for?" "My Harry Potter discussion group." *snicker* I'm sorry, but the thought of that conversation struck me as hilarious!! Monika Huebner wrote: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 03:26:26 -0000, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: >--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" >wrote: >> and some chopsticks we use as wands when dressing up. > >I think they'd be smaller wands than any specified in canon. If I remember well, Umbridge's wand is described as being unusually short. Maybe no longer than a chopstick? SCNR >What do >people think about the proper size for a wand? We haven't seen many wands so far, but in general, they seem to be at least seven inches long. At least we aren't told Harry tries a shorter one at Ollivanders. Lily's was ten and a quarter inches, James' eleven inches. Harry's wand is eleven inches long, too. Hagrid's seemed to be unusually long (16 inches), but he's half giant. Let's see: the chopsticks in my kitchen drawer are 26 cm long, that's roughly 10 inches, the proper size for a wand, though I'd say they are a bit thin for a wand. ;) Monika Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ~JoAnna~ http://pt4ever.diaryland.com "You know, you look at George W. and you realize some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and some get it as a graduation gift." - Robin Williams --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tim_regan82 at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 15 19:05:47 2003 From: tim_regan82 at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:05:47 -0000 Subject: OT: Erotic xmas and the size of your w... (was Re: Dumbledad's Introduction) In-Reply-To: <20030715173509.92214.qmail@...> Message-ID: Hi All, "It's not the wand, but the wizard who waves it" (Fantastic Sex and Where to Find It, Mr. Ollivander, p.37) --- Catlady wrote: > What's so erotic about Christmas? --- Barb wrote: > It's probably not 'erotic' so much as > a time when people have a holiday from > work and it's cold, so they might take > advantage of engaging in certain indoor > 'hobbies' more often or be less careful > about preventing new arrivals from > coming in nine months' time. I agree that Christmas is not erotic (though I'm sure balls on the tree, an angel mounted on top, stuffing the turkey, presents in stockings, fruity cake, etc could be woven into a double-entendre laden joke). But, I can imagine couples curled up in front of the fire on a cold Christmas evening, after one glass of port too many, suffused in the twinkling light from the tree, having watched countless images of angelic looking kids enjoying Christmas, reassessing when they should start trying for a family. --- Catlady wrote: > I think [chopsticks would] be smaller > wands than any specified in canon. What > do people think about the proper size for > a wand? --- Monika wrote: > Let's see: the chopsticks in my kitchen > drawer are 26 cm long, that's roughly 10 > inches, the proper size for a wand, > though I'd say they are a bit thin for a > wand. ;) Well I've read too many Cosmo' articles to claim girth isn't important, but I would like to make a plea for amateurish dressing up. My kid's wizard cloaks came from two sources, one's an old sarong of Kate's and the other is a remnant of velvet from a fabric shop (it looks amazing, shimmers like the invisibility cloak). My hat's a black velvet one that I bought Kate years ago in Brighton. It has a pattern stitched round the bottom of the brim that is reminiscent of the constellations. Meg got a Hermione-esque school uniform skirt from a thrift store and uses a Beanie Buddy as Crookshanks. Etc etc. While I've nothing against people buying more professional looking costumes, there is something lovely about spending the time to cobble it together. It's a similar to the magic of found poetry. The chopsticks follow in that vain. They are nice ones with color coordinated handles so we each pick our own color. They are great for practicing your swish and flick. I also thought about using conductors batons, since I thought they'd be cheap, come in an `olde worlde' looking box, and look like the wands on the film. But after looking on ebay and in a local music shop I found I was mostly wrong on all three counts. Cheers, Dumbledad. From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 15 21:31:38 2003 From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:31:38 -0400 Subject: Umbridge in Real Life? References: Message-ID: <00b601c34b18$79831d40$0302a8c0@athena> Coincidence? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3068271.stm -Jim Flanagan From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 16 00:09:10 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:09:10 -0000 Subject: Umbridge in Real Life? In-Reply-To: <00b601c34b18$79831d40$0302a8c0@athena> Message-ID: Gracious! She's worse. At least Umbridge wasn't embezzling. (There! Something nice that can be said about her!) Now, if JKR had crossed the character of Umbridge with Ludo Bagman, we might have a contender... --Barb --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" wrote: > Coincidence? > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3068271.stm > > -Jim Flanagan From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 16 01:21:36 2003 From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:21:36 -0000 Subject: Umbridge in Real Life? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > Gracious! She's worse. At least Umbridge wasn't embezzling. > (There! Something nice that can be said about her!) Now, if JKR > had crossed the character of Umbridge with Ludo Bagman, we might > have a contender... > > --Barb > > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" > wrote: > > Coincidence? > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3068271.stm > > > > -Jim Flanagan I think you're on to something here, Barb. Hmmmm...perhaps the lovechild of Bagman and Umbridge? Surely, Ludo has better taste! Nevertheless, she certainly looks the part. Jo S. From mo.hue at ... Wed Jul 16 05:38:23 2003 From: mo.hue at ... (=?iso-8859-1?Q? Monika=20H=FCbner ?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:38:23 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dumbledad's Introduction Message-ID: <200307160538.h6G5cNQ13033@...> Joanna wrote: > > "What are you doing, dear?" > > "Measuring chopsticks." > > "Uh, what for?" > > "My Harry Potter discussion group." > > *snicker* > > I'm sorry, but the thought of that conversation struck me as hilarious!! You're welcome. ;-) I remember there was a conversation about ladies and broomsticks a long time ago, but I, er, didn't make the connection to wands. Monika who thought it was fun to find out how long chopsticks really are, but they are definitely too thin for *this* kind of wand. 8-) ______________________________________________________________________________ Werden Sie kreativ! Jetzt HTML-Mails nicht nur schreiben - nein - GESTALTEN, bei WEB.DE FreeMail! http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021141 From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 19 21:31:24 2003 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:31:24 -0000 Subject: Wait a second... Message-ID: Is it Nimbus weekend? Is that why no one is here? Ohhhhhhh I'm so envious I have to go next year! ~Kaitlin, who wishes she was in Florida right now... From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 19 21:33:29 2003 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:33:29 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Wait a second... Message-ID: > >Is it Nimbus weekend? Is that why no one is here? Ohhhhhhh I'm so >envious I have to go next year! >~Kaitlin, who wishes she was in Florida right now... I couldn't go either, Kaitlin, so I'm here... Parker _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 19 22:08:50 2003 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:08:50 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Wait a second... References: Message-ID: <00fd01c34e42$57b084a0$4a321c40@...> I'm here too...and glaring at the general direction of Nimbus. Nope, not bitter, not at all. :o) Saitaina **** "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina My theory on housework is, if the item doesn't multiply, smell, catch on fire or block the refrigerator door, let it be. No one cares. Why should you? From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 19 23:09:14 2003 From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:09:14 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Wait a second... References: Message-ID: <000801c34e4a$c5828e80$0302a8c0@athena> I'm off to SUUSI (Unitarian church camp) this week instead of Nimbus. What a conflict! -Jim Flanagan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Parker Brown Nesbit" To: Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [the_old_crowd] Wait a second... > > > >Is it Nimbus weekend? Is that why no one is here? Ohhhhhhh I'm so > >envious I have to go next year! > >~Kaitlin, who wishes she was in Florida right now... > > > I couldn't go either, Kaitlin, so I'm here... > > Parker > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 19 20:44:12 2003 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:44:12 EDT Subject: [the_old_crowd] Wait a second... Message-ID: Well, that makes 4 of us... From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 20 00:51:36 2003 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:51:36 -0000 Subject: Wait a second... In-Reply-To: <00fd01c34e42$57b084a0$4a321c40@...> Message-ID: We could have our own little convention here--the "Comet Two Sixty" version...hehehe Hello to all those who are home this weekend! Kaitlin --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Saitaina" wrote: > I'm here too...and glaring at the general > direction of Nimbus. Nope, not bitter, not > at all. :o) > > Saitaina > **** > "No, one day I'm going to look back on all > this and plow face-first into a tree because > I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll > still be having a better day than I am > today." > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina > > My theory on housework is, if the item > doesn't multiply, smell, catch on fire or > block the refrigerator door, let it be. No > one cares. Why should you? From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 20 17:47:47 2003 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Umbridge in Real Life? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030720174747.29902.qmail@...> anyone have a phone number for Nimbus 2003? I am trying to contact Carole Estes. She is not responding to messages on her cell phone. Randy Held captive by three small children. --- serenadust wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, > "psychic_serpent" > wrote: > > Gracious! She's worse. At least Umbridge wasn't > embezzling. > > (There! Something nice that can be said about > her!) Now, if JKR > > had crossed the character of Umbridge with Ludo > Bagman, we might > > have a contender... > > > > --Barb > > > > > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim > Flanagan" > > wrote: > > > Coincidence? > > > > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3068271.stm > > > > > > -Jim Flanagan > > > I think you're on to something here, Barb. > Hmmmm...perhaps the > lovechild of Bagman and Umbridge? Surely, Ludo has > better taste! > Nevertheless, she certainly looks the part. > > Jo S. > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 20 19:32:27 2003 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:32:27 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Umbridge in Real Life? References: <20030720174747.29902.qmail@...> Message-ID: <00ad01c34ef5$bb633160$81371c40@...> Randy wrote: Try calling the hotel and being patched through to her room...only thing I can think of. Hope you get a hold of her love. Saitaina **** "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina My theory on housework is, if the item doesn't multiply, smell, catch on fire or block the refrigerator door, let it be. No one cares. Why should you? From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 20 19:25:05 2003 From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:25:05 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Umbridge in Real Life? Message-ID: <1058731653.38C60B72@...> Randy - she is at lunch with kris now. You can reach us by calling the hotel and askimg for 'parrot' On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 1:47PM -0500, Randy Estes wrote: > Real-To: Randy Estes > > anyone have a phone number for Nimbus 2003? > > I am trying to contact Carole Estes. She is not > responding to messages on her cell phone. > > Randy > > Held captive by three small children. > > > --- serenadust wrote: >> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, >> "psychic_serpent" >> wrote: >> > Gracious! She's worse. At least Umbridge wasn't >> embezzling. >> > (There! Something nice that can be said about >> her!) Now, if JKR >> > had crossed the character of Umbridge with Ludo >> Bagman, we might >> > have a contender... >> > >> > --Barb >> > >> > >> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim >> Flanagan" >> > wrote: >> > > Coincidence? >> > > >> > > >> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3068271.stm >> > > >> > > -Jim Flanagan >> >> >> I think you're on to something here, Barb. >> Hmmmm...perhaps the >> lovechild of Bagman and Umbridge? Surely, Ludo has >> better taste! >> Nevertheless, she certainly looks the part. >> >> Jo S. >> >> > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 22 01:36:22 2003 From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:36:22 -0000 Subject: Jim's Introduction Message-ID: I decided to take the plunge of joining the Old Crowd after HP withdrawal got too severe. I'm afriad that other forums have gotten to be chat rooms based on their message volume with no hope of real discussion. So here I am: Jim Ferer, aka "Dadgrid" 53, born Oct. 1, 1949 I live in the outer NYC suburbs in Connecticut. I work as a safety manager for a large civil works contractor. As some of you know, I have two daughters, 9 and 12, who have tagged along with me to HP events when I had the care of them for the day. They live in Massachusetts with their mother, and enjoy HP very much. Rachel in particular can give some of us a run for our money when it comes to HP trivia. I am the author of two short fic works, "The Granger Interview" and "The Letter." Email: dadgrid at ..., jferer at .... From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 23 18:18:37 2003 From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: article: Housing Market Too Tough for Potter Message-ID: <20030723181837.67105.qmail@...> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=9&u=/nm/20030723/od_nm/britain_potter_dc Apparently, someone forgot to tell the real estate agents that no one WANTS to live at the Dursley's house! :-) ~JoAnna~ http://pt4ever.diaryland.com "You know, you look at George W. and you realize some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and some get it as a graduation gift." - Robin Williams --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 24 01:35:38 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:35:38 -0000 Subject: Ottawa in 2004 Message-ID: At Nimbus 2003, some kind person handed out flyers for "Convention Alley" "Harry Potter's Birthday Party" in Ottawa in 2004. Is that Sheryll's event? Does it have a website? From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 24 01:59:58 2003 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:59:58 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Ottawa in 2004 References: Message-ID: <003801c35187$4a9f6220$8f04a6d8@...> Catlady: > At Nimbus 2003, some kind person handed out flyers for "Convention > Alley" "Harry Potter's Birthday Party" in Ottawa in 2004. Is that > Sheryll's event? Does it have a website? Yes, that was us. Phyllis was handing them out. We have an LJ community set up, and are developing a website. Here's the URL for the community: http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/ If anyone wants the brochure emailed, I can do that. ~Amanda, channeling the Ottawa team From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 24 03:07:43 2003 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:07:43 -0500 Subject: OT: Sexist observation Message-ID: <006001c35190$c0c9d8a0$8f04a6d8@...> For those of you who belong to the Convention list, I was browsing through Photos, the Wendy's file, and Caius Marcius is one good lookin' dude. Just FYI. Wonder if he can sing? ~Amanda ------------------------- Those who cannot hear the music, think the dancers daft. From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 24 16:59:44 2003 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:59:44 -0000 Subject: Nimbus people! Message-ID: So? How did it go? We want details and pics if you have 'em! Aloha, Kaitlin From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 24 19:17:30 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:17:30 -0000 Subject: Ottawa in 2004 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rita (Catlady) wrote: > At Nimbus 2003, some kind person handed out flyers for "Convention > Alley" "Harry Potter's Birthday Party" in Ottawa in 2004. Is that > Sheryll's event? Does it have a website? Rita! That was me! I was looking for you all weekend - are you telling me that I handed you a flyer and didn't know it was you? Aaarrrgggghhhhh! The live journal web address is also on the back of the brochure, btw. Amanda developed the brochure - she is *very* talented :) ~Phyllis hoping she'll finally meet Rita in person in Ottawa next year! From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 24 19:37:27 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:37:27 -0000 Subject: OT: Sexist observation In-Reply-To: <006001c35190$c0c9d8a0$8f04a6d8@...> Message-ID: Amanda wrote: > For those of you who belong to the Convention list, I was browsing > through Photos, the Wendy's file, and Caius Marcius is one good > lookin' dude. > > Just FYI. Wonder if he can sing? Yes, he can! I had the pleasure of being in the audience while he was singing some of his filks. And, in addition to being good looking and being able to sing, he was one of the nicest people I met all weekend! ~Phyllis From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 24 22:19:56 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:19:56 -0000 Subject: Ottawa in 2004 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was so glad to meet you, Phyllis! I also missed Rita, although if you were the woman with the very prominent cat ears on your head all weekend, Rita, I DID see you, but didn't get to speak to you. (Would you believe that it didn't occur to me that that might be you until I was on the Night Bus on the way back to the airport? Gah.) It was great to finally meet so many people I'd only known online. I also feel like I got a new sister out of the deal, or something like that, as my roomate and I completely bonded and spent Friday AND Saturday night talking into the wee hours! The funny thing is that the last time I flew to Florida by myself, it was to visit my sister, and we did the same thing (talked into the night). --Barb, who thought she had enough sisters (3) and was evidently wrong, especially as none of THEM are HP fans --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > Rita (Catlady) wrote: > > > At Nimbus 2003, some kind person handed out flyers for "Convention > > Alley" "Harry Potter's Birthday Party" in Ottawa in 2004. Is that > > Sheryll's event? Does it have a website? > > Rita! That was me! I was looking for you all weekend - are you > telling me that I handed you a flyer and didn't know it was you? > Aaarrrgggghhhhh! > > The live journal web address is also on the back of the brochure, > btw. Amanda developed the brochure - she is *very* talented :) > > ~Phyllis > hoping she'll finally meet Rita in person in Ottawa next year! From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 25 02:07:00 2003 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:07:00 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: OT: Sexist observation References: Message-ID: <01f501c35251$6f67ad40$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- <<< For those of you who belong to the Convention list, I was browsing > through Photos, the Wendy's file, and Caius Marcius is one good > lookin' dude. > > Just FYI. Wonder if he can sing? Yes, he can! I had the pleasure of being in the audience while he was singing some of his filks. And, in addition to being good looking and being able to sing, he was one of the nicest people I met all weekend!>>>>>>>>>>>>> He is both incredibly good-looking and about the nicest person I met all weekend too. Absolutely. He introduced himself at one of the panels (maybe my Geography presentation?). Anyway, he was so nice and I only regret that I didn't run into him again all weekend. I'll have a more detailed report on Nimbus - 2003 soon. I met Phyllis, and we wore the same skirt on Saturday! :--D I also met Rita (hi, Rita) and Dicey and of course, Barb, Steve, Peg and Rob and *John*! It was so cool. It was just fabulous to meet everyone in person at long last. Steve, please tell Brenda that I'm so excited that she let you drag her to Nimbus, as I really enjoyed meeting you both. I also met tons of my fellow Pumpkin Pie cohorts, though again, I didn't have as much time to "hang out" as I would have liked. I'm looking forward to doing far more "hanging" and drinking at the next event, unless I get suckered into working it again. And, I should mention that I saw lots of people I'd met before ------ Ebony, Carole (and Randy at one dinner), Heidi, Debbie, Kris, and Cassie. It was just fab. Just fab. I wish you could all have been there. I'll tell you more about specifics later though. Penny (still in "recovery mode"................) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 25 02:40:35 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 02:40:35 -0000 Subject: not really Re: Ottawa in 2004 Message-ID: I plan to go to the Ottawa event next summer. If the programming was just a *little* less interesting than at Nimbus 2003, I might actually manage to have real conversations with the people I know on-line (none of you look like black letters on a white screen!) instead of, at most, "Hi! How nice to meet you! Which presentation are you going to next?" Phyllis, I am grief-striken that I missed you! IIRC you actually gave the Ottawa flyers to Tim, just before the first first movie, while I was in the bathroom. Barb, I had cat ears all the time except Friday I wore a witchy hat with white flowers on it, but there was a (younger and prettier) woman who also had cat ear, and *she* had whiskers, too ... whiskers are too difficult for me. i saw you, but you seemed to be so busy working the convention that I didn't want to interrupt. From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 27 06:09:10 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 06:09:10 -0000 Subject: Black family names (astronomy) Message-ID: http://www.r-clarke.org.uk/propernames1.htm Sirius is the Dog Star in Canis Major. Regulus is a star in Leo. Bellatrix is a star in Orion. Andromeda is a constellation. The other person of whom we know in that generation is Narcissa (mother of Draco, another constellation). I've read several posts that claim that Narcissus is also an astronomical name. I haven't been able to find astronomical Narcissus on Google, can someone point me? Rastaban is beta Draconis. Was that the name of Rodolphus Lestrange's brother (the fourth man of the Pensieve Four)? Sirius's Uncle Alphard left him enough money to buy a place of his own at age 17 (which I imagine to be a small house rather than a flat). The star named ALPHARD is alpha Hydrae. This suggests that Sirius's father and Bellatrix's father (and Sirius's mother, if she was a double Black) also had astronomical names. Any mention of them? "Aunt Elladora" might have been some kind of great-aunt, great-great- aunt ... she started the custom of beheading House Elves when they were too old to carry a tea-tray ... how years would it take for enough House Elves to grow old for their heads to line the whole stairway? From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sun Jul 27 09:15:50 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:15:50 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Black family names (astronomy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 06:09:10 -0000, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: >Sirius is the Dog Star in Canis Major. It's also one of the brightest stars in the sky, and the brightest star in that constellation. >Regulus is a star in Leo. And of the same magnitude as Sirius. They are equal in brightness. >Bellatrix is a star in Orion. Though not the brightest star in that constellation. In Greek mythology, Orion is the hunter, and Sirius, the Dog Star, is his dog. So in a certain sense, the hunter has killed his dog. >Andromeda is a constellation. It's also the name of King Kepheus' daughter in Greek mythology. Andromeda's mother claimed she was more beautiful than the daughters of King Nereus, the Nereids, who became so angry about it that their friend Poseidon sent a flood drowning the land of King Kepheus, as well as a fish that devoured everything. Then there was a prophecy that said that Andromeda had to be sacrificed to the fish to get rid of those plagues. Her father was so desperate that he chained her to a rock from which she was rescued by Perseus. >The other person of whom we know in that generation is Narcissa >(mother of Draco, another constellation). I've read several posts >that claim that Narcissus is also an astronomical name. I haven't >been able to find astronomical Narcissus on Google, can someone point >me? I have never heard of it either, at least it's not a well known name if it exists. >Rastaban is beta Draconis. Was that the name of Rodolphus >Lestrange's brother (the fourth man of the Pensieve Four)? Yes. >Sirius's Uncle Alphard left him enough money to buy a place of his >own at age 17 (which I imagine to be a small house rather than a >flat). The star named ALPHARD is alpha Hydrae. This suggests that >Sirius's father and Bellatrix's father (and Sirius's mother, if she >was a double Black) also had astronomical names. Any mention of them? No, I was looking for references like this during my second read, but there weren't any. Hydra is one of Hercules's tasks in Greek mythology (just for the sake of completeness :)). >"Aunt Elladora" might have been some kind of great-aunt, great-great- >aunt ... she started the custom of beheading House Elves when they >were too old to carry a tea-tray ... how years would it take for >enough House Elves to grow old for their heads to line the whole >stairway? AFAIK, we don't know how old House Elves can become. Kreacher is said to look very old, much older than Dobby, but we aren't told how old exactly. Monika From blaise_writer at blaise_42.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 28 12:08:07 2003 From: blaise_writer at blaise_42.yahoo.invalid (Blaise) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:08:07 -0000 Subject: Black family names (astronomy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Catlady wrote: Rastaban is beta Draconis. Was that the name of Rodolphus Lestrange's brother (the fourth man of the Pensieve Four)? Monika said yes to this, but in my version of OotP Rodolphus' brother is called Rabastan, not Rastaban. I can't find Rabastan in my little star dictionary, nor in my classical dictionary. Can anyone enlighten me as to what the name signifies? Or did JKR mean Rastaban and make an error? Or is it just my copy of OotP? As for Narcissus, as far as I know there is no star or constellation with this name, nor is there any connection between the myth of Narcissus and the stars. So I conclude that JKR chose Narcissa as a name to represent the woman's qualities rather than following the Black family tradition. I suppose one could think up some kind of backstory concerning Narcissa Black's birth and childhood that explains why she was given a non-astronomical name (could she be a bastard child? or her mother had her in a previous marriage?). Any other theories? I hope everyone who went enjoyed Nimbus! Wish I'd been there! Blaise From mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 28 16:14:27 2003 From: mo.hue at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:14:27 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Black family names (astronomy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:08:07 -0000, "Blaise" wrote: >Catlady wrote: Rastaban is beta Draconis. Was that the name of >Rodolphus Lestrange's brother (the fourth man of the Pensieve Four)? > >Monika said yes to this, but in my version of OotP Rodolphus' brother >is called Rabastan, not Rastaban. Oops, I am sorry, but I seem to have misread it. Of course it's Rabastan. Maybe I should get myself new glasses. ;-) >I can't find Rabastan in my little >star dictionary, nor in my classical dictionary. Can anyone enlighten >me as to what the name signifies? Or did JKR mean Rastaban and make >an error? Or is it just my copy of OotP? No, I have a British copy, too (as I suppose you have). But I was wondering about Phineas. I found two "Phineus" in Greek mythology, but no "Phineas". Maybe we are just too obsessed to find the etymology of the names in mythology. >As for Narcissus, as far as I know there is no star or constellation >with this name, nor is there any connection between the myth of >Narcissus and the stars. So I conclude that JKR chose Narcissa as a >name to represent the woman's qualities rather than following the >Black family tradition. I always thought she was named for her qualities, or maybe because Rowling seems to have a thing for giving her female characters the names of flowers. > I suppose one could think up some kind of >backstory concerning Narcissa Black's birth and childhood that >explains why she was given a non-astronomical name (could she be a >bastard child? or her mother had her in a previous marriage?). Any >other theories? Hm, wouldn't Sirius have mentioned this to Harry when he showed him the family tree? The fact she doesn't look like her sister Bellatrix (who is dark like Sirius) doesn't mean anything, I think. Genes sometimes act in a weird fashion. And we don't know what Andromeda looks like, I was wondering if the "dark goods looks" were a family trait of the Blacks. (Just musing.) Monika From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Mon Jul 28 16:22:46 2003 From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:22:46 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Black family names (astronomy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1059409371.2B132185@...> On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:15PM -0500, Monika Huebner wrote: > Real-To: Monika Huebner > > > I always thought she was named for her qualities, or maybe because > Rowling seems to have a thing for giving her female characters the > names of flowers. > >> I suppose one could think up some kind of >> backstory concerning Narcissa Black's birth and childhood that >> explains why she was given a non-astronomical name (could she be a >> bastard child? or her mother had her in a previous marriage?). Any >> other theories? > > Hm, wouldn't Sirius have mentioned this to Harry when he showed him > the family tree? The fact she doesn't look like her sister Bellatrix > (who is dark like Sirius) doesn't mean anything, I think. Genes > sometimes act in a weird fashion. And we don't know what Andromeda > looks like, I was wondering if the "dark goods looks" were a family > trait of the Blacks. (Just musing.) Or perhaps she's also a metamorphomagus, which I never spell right, and looks the way her husband wants her to? That family does seem to have some innate talent for physical transformation - even sirius would likely have known about tonks' ability before he became an animagus, because she doesn't seem to be more than 15 years younger thanhe is - close but not more... But if a cousin closer to him in age was able to do so, it mightve given him more confidence in it. And great, now I'm musing that draco's the one in harry's year with the genetic coding to manage being an animagus... Heidi From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 29 03:16:35 2003 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 03:16:35 -0000 Subject: Black family names (Phineas) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Monika Huebner wrote: > No, I have a British copy, too (as I suppose you have). But I was > wondering about Phineas. I found two "Phineus" in Greek mythology, > bu no "Phineas". Maybe we are just too obsessed to find the > etymology of the names in mythology. http://www.behindthename.com/ is the name website that I usually consult. As soon as I finished reading OoP, I looked up Phineas there and found that it is an Bible translation variant of Pinhas (Pinchas). I already knew that Pinhas is a Hebrew name --- I already knew that the Hebrew name Pinhas comes from the Ancient Egyptian name Pa-Nehasi, which means "the Nubian", the same way that modern people are named Scott, Dane, Norman, Frank... I luckily looked up Nigel, which they explained as coming from "Nigellus", Latin for "Neil" but sometimes explained as related to "Niger", rather than looking up Nigellus, which doesn't have a listing of its own. What I have just said is that Phineas Nigellus Black means (close enough for JKR) Black Black Black. I admire her cleverness, but wish she could have done it without a racial reference ... what other names mean Black? Nero? Douglas or Dugall or anything derived from Dubh. Chernobog. From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 29 19:26:03 2003 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:26:03 -0000 Subject: My husband had a Snapethought Message-ID: My husband, Jan, is working his way through OoP. He made an observation which totally missed me. This is superbly amazing because not only am I a L.O.O.N., it's about *Snape,* for God's sake. I can't imagine nobody else caught it, but I haven't been anywhere near keeping up with the main list at all. If any of you who *have* been keeping up think I should post it over there, please let me know- -it may be known and done to death, but it may not. However, I don't *think* I've seen it here, so here goes. Jan has gotten through the pensieve scene. And his basic take is that James was your basic BMOC (big man on campus), a jock, like the guy that walks around with a football under his arm. Yeah, I got that much. But the thing I missed was what he considered the obvious parallel to Snape's being taunted--not Harry in the graveyard, but the DEs at the World Cup. Down to the same spell, he said, and he's likely correct; the Robertsons were held in midair and at one point, the Mrs. was flipped upside down. I had completely missed this, and found it chilling, especially the similarity of treatment of the victim. I'm at work now, can't analyze much, but I was stunned that I'd totally missed this and wanted to get other thoughts. Thoughts? ~Amanda From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 29 21:17:53 2003 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:17:53 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] My husband had a Snapethought (and an OT story) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Amanda writes >Jan has gotten through the pensieve scene. And his basic take is that >James was your basic BMOC (big man on campus), a jock, like the guy >that walks around with a football under his arm. Yeah, I got that >much. But the thing I missed was what he considered the obvious >parallel to Snape's being taunted--not Harry in the graveyard, but >the DEs at the World Cup. Down to the same spell, he said, and he's >likely correct; the Robertsons were held in midair and at one point, >the Mrs. was flipped upside down. > >I had completely missed this, and found it chilling, especially the >similarity of treatment of the victim. I'm at work now, can't analyze >much, but I was stunned that I'd totally missed this and wanted to >get other thoughts. Thoughts? > >~Amanda I had a similar thought, but it was almost an aside - in message # 201, I said: "Even the Death Eaters left the muggles' underwear on (I hope). Another thought - anyone think that this is where the Death Eaters got the idea from in the first place?" I haven't really thought about it much more beyond that - but it makes sense in a way. If Snape was hanging out with a bunch of students who became Death Eaters, and if any of them witnessed this scene, then it is possible they remembered and copied it. But yes, chilling in the extreme. I was really unhappy about the parallels it is impossible not to draw between James and some of the more unpleasant characters in the books. Now, a wee little OT story, which had me in stitches when I first read it.... Many of you know that I moved house recently (hence little or no Internet time and pulling out of Nimbus at the last minute, which was very frustrating). Anyway, I've moved to a tiny little village in Norfolk which is in between one largish village, Shipdham, and a very small town, Watton (it would take you two minutes to walk down the High Street). That's all the background you need. Anyway, the previous occupants of our house left us a pile of local magazines and newspapers to give us some local flavour, including a monthly paper, "The Wayland News".- it's the kind of paper which has headlines such as "Afternoon Tea", "Stools", "Thank you from Doreen", "Organ Recital at St Mary's, Watton", "Norfolk Squit" and "Cancelled! St. Mary's Church Hobbies Exhibition", so I'm pretty sure that the Leaky Cauldron would not have picked this up (Heidi, I apologise if you did!), so here is a snippet: "It's not often you get a film star coming along to a local carnival, but the BBC Norfolk website has friends in high places. That's how we got Chris Rankin, who plays Percy Weasley in the Harry Potter films, to come down to answer questions from the crowd about his forthcoming movie, The Prisoner of Azkaban. Chris said how pleased he was to be in Watton for the day, "It's nice to come and do something outside of Dereham. I've done a lot of public appearances around my village of Shipdham but never come to Watton before so it's great to be here." " Bear in mind that Watton is only about *Four Miles* away from Shipdham, and that Shipdham probably has a couple of pubs, a village hall and that is it. He must be a favourite guest judge at all those village fetes. Catherine, sick of jam making, and missing London (kind of) From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 00:36:04 2003 From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (heiditandy) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:36:04 -0000 Subject: Erm. USAToday. Thursday. Noon. Message-ID: High noon. I'll be standing in the virtual town square... http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20030731004/tscript.htm You know, last week, when they asked me, it didn't seem so weird. I'm not mentioning this on announcements or on otc, although at Melissa's request I put it up on TLC... but I thought I'd share it with all of you. I guess you can come and ask me questions? or even submit them now? I'm off to deal with 14 year olds who are responding to my draco- darcy comparison by saying that they think Harry and Ginny are going to get together later, like in Emma with Emma and Mr Knightly. Should I go explain to them my extensive *Emma* theory involving James as Emma, Lily as Knightly, Sirius as Frank and Remus as Jane Fairfax? From kelleythompson at kelleyscorpio.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 01:35:04 2003 From: kelleythompson at kelleyscorpio.yahoo.invalid (Kelley) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:35:04 -0000 Subject: Snapethought, USA Today In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Amanda wrote: >> I can't imagine nobody else caught it, but I haven't been anywhere near keeping up with the main list at all. If any of you who *have* been keeping up think I should post it over there, please let me know- -it may be known and done to death, but it may not. However, I don't *think* I've seen it here, so here goes. >>> Amanda, it *has* been mentioned on the main list, as I remember seeing a reference in a pending I approved, but I have no idea how much it's been discussed; Pippin mentioned that she's keeping up pretty well, so maybe she has some better info for you... Heidi: >> High noon. I'll be standing in the virtual town square... http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20030731004/tscript.htm You know, last week, when they asked me, it didn't seem so weird. >>> Hehheh. This doesn't seem so weird, I think it's great! I saw TLC's mention of Emerson's chat transcript and read that, but I missed Phil Nel's. I didn't pay much attention at the time, so didn't realize this is a 'series' or whatever it is. It brings to mind JKR's online chats after GoF; is this (Q&A chats with people in the fandom) something new? This is the first time I've ever heard about it, I think. Hope it's in addition to online chats with JKR, rather than in lieu of... --Kelley From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 02:23:35 2003 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 02:23:35 -0000 Subject: Snapethought, USA Today In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley" wrote: > Amanda, it *has* been mentioned on the main list, as I remember seeing a reference in a pending I approved, but I have no idea how much it's been discussed; Pippin mentioned that she's keeping up pretty well, so maybe she has some better info for you... > Check out Main List posts 68122 by Oryomai and 68160 by Megethia; both got a few responses. It's also mentioned in Lee's post 70539, but the responses didn't pick up on it. Pippin From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 03:48:41 2003 From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb2) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:48:41 -0000 Subject: Austen Parallels and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Heidi wrote: > I'm off to deal with 14 year olds who are responding to my draco- > darcy comparison by saying that they think Harry and Ginny are going > to get together later, like in Emma with Emma and Mr Knightly. > Nothing like Austen to drag me out of lurkdom; Heidi, you can just tell them that that can't be right because Hermione is Emma -- pleased with her successes and oblivious to her failures. And Ginny is Fanny Price -- timid, acts too young for her age, and fantasizes about someone she shouldn't. Or, at least she used to be Austen's Fanny, before OOP turned her into the Patricia Rozema version. My theory, such as it is, is that JKR drew extensively from Austen in drawing all of her major characters, with some parallels more obvious than others. However, I'm not at all convinced that she's pulled her plotlines from Austen, especially the romantic ones. > Should I go explain to them my extensive *Emma* theory involving > James as Emma, Lily as Knightly, Sirius as Frank and Remus as Jane > Fairfax? Wait a minute! I've been thinking of Remus as Jane Fairfax! I hadn't thought of Lily as Knightley, but her defense of Snape in his memory definitely gives her some knightly credentials. And who is Snape? Mr. Elton? I have problems seeing James as Emma, though. James is not blind to the effect of his actions, and Emma is not a bully. Which brings me to Amanda's point about the parallel between James' treatment of Snape and the QWC: > I had completely missed this, and found it chilling, especially the > similarity of treatment of the victim. I'm at work now, can't analyze > much, but I was stunned that I'd totally missed this and wanted to > get other thoughts. Thoughts? I did see this parallel. I had rather suspected before reading OOP that Sirius and James might be bullies, but the cruelty they displayed in the pensieve scene really surprised me, and the QWC parallel brought it home. I can see why Sirius might want to choose Snape as a target -- Snape acts like Mrs. Black would find him a much better son than Sirius himself, and therefore Snape provokes a strong emotional reaction from Sirius. His antipathy for Snape, while ugly, is an honest, if misguided emotion. But the worst behaviour in this scene seems to come from James, which the QWC parallel particularly highlights. We don't get the sense of any gripe James might have against Snape, just as the DEs have no gripe against the Robertses. Insead, we see James elevating arrogance to a level that disgusted me as much as it did Harry -- picking on Snape because he *exists* and his appreciation for Pettigrew's sycophancy -- his fatal flaws, methinks. I'm beginning to see the Prank as the defining "come to Jesus" moment of James' life, when he finally realizes that bullying can be deadly (and if we take JKR's hints, perhaps in more ways than one). After reading this scene, one can really appreciate Snape's need to start attempting to squelch any arrogant tendencies of Harry's the minute he first lays eyes on him. Debbie From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 05:54:32 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 05:54:32 -0000 Subject: Harry and Jane In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Personally, I never saw any similarities between Darcy and Draco other than a preponderence of similar letters in their names, and I certainly see no similarities between Hermione and Elizabeth, let alone a Harry/Ginny parallel in Emma. I don't believe that JKR ever intends to echo any of the Austen plots, romantic or otherwise, in her novels. (If we ever discover what on earth got Lily and James together that opinion could change, but I still don't see her doing it with Harry's generation.) What I see in the existing HP books which is sometimes Austen-esque are her descriptions of people, such as the Dursleys (especially Petunia and Marge) and her use of McGonagall. McGonagall's remarks to Trelawney during the Christmas feast in PoA are a good example of this, and some of McGonagall's moments in OotP (especially in regard to Umbridge) are practically classic Austen. Minerva McGonagall is, I believe, JKR's chief homage to Jane (although Sprout sometimes gets a sprinkling of Austen). Percy has, of course, always seemed like a composite of all of the stiffer humor-challenged Austen characters, but he was a fifty-year-old at heart even when he was fifteen. IMO, the younger characters (in which I can't bring myself to include Percy) resemble Austen characters and their actions as much as Britney Spears resembles Beverly Sills. --Barb From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 14:21:25 2003 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:21:25 -0500 Subject: Austen Parallels; Snape (yes, Snape); James; Lily; and oh ....some shipping here & there (of course!) References: Message-ID: <05c401c356a5$dc4e7df0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- Well, now that Nimbus is behind us by more than a week, I'm ready for some good canon discussions. :--) AUSTEN PARALLELS -- Heidi wrote: > I'm off to deal with 14 year olds who are responding to my draco- > darcy comparison by saying that they think Harry and Ginny are going > to get together later, like in Emma with Emma and Mr Knightly.>>> > Debbie: <<<<>>>>>>>>>> Barb said, in a similar vein: <<>>>>>>>>>> I'm no Jane Austen expert (though I did re-read all of her novels at some point in the year I was nursing Elizabeth), but I agree with Debbie and Barb. I missed hearing Karin Westman's "When Harry Met Jane" presentation at Nimbus because I was presenting on Geography at the time, and I'd be interested to hear what she had to say on this. Debbie, you attended that one, didn't you? It seems to me that there are not exact parallels to be drawn between specific Austen characters and specific Rowling characters. There are some similarities here and there, but I don't think it's yet risen to a level that anyone can point to 2 characters and say that the romance angle will play out as it did in Austen because the Rowling characters are perfect parallels of Austen ones. I agree that McGonagall is classic Austen (which is no doubt why my husband the Austen fan rolls in laughter at most McGonagall lines). But, I don't think Hermione or Harry or Ron or Draco or Ginny have any specific parallels. I do think, though, that if there's any parallel to be drawn in the *relationship* between Emma and Mr. Knightley, then it's Harry and Hermione. You knew I'd say that, didn't you? No seriously, I can see Hermione as Mr. Knightley and Harry as Emma more than anything else. Hermione is Harry's conscience, and we see Harry acknowledging this specifically in OoP. We see Hermione guiding Harry to the right conclusions, again and again. But do I think that Rowling intends us to see a parallel between Hermione/Mr. Knightley and Harry/Emma and leap to the conclusion that H/H is a foregone conclusion? No, definitely not. I think Rowling pays homage to Austen more in the manner in which she hides textual clues to the mysteries of her books than in any specific character or plot parallels. And while I do think Rowling is clearly and intentionally laying some shipping "clues" that are ambiguous enough to keep everyone guessing, I think she's also laying clues in a non-shipping context to the more central mysteries of the series, in Austenesque fashion. SNAPE -- Amanda: > I had completely missed this, and found it chilling, especially the > similarity of treatment of the victim. I'm at work now, can't analyze > much, but I was stunned that I'd totally missed this and wanted to > get other thoughts. Thoughts? Debbie: <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I too saw the parallel between the DEs levitating the muggles and the way Snape was treated by James, even before someone mentioned it on this list or HPfGU. But, unlike Debbie, I did not perceive James and Sirius as bullies before OoP. I'm not entirely sure that I'd say they were "bullies" per se even now. As far as we know, Snape was the only target of their bullying behavior. Snape's Pensieve Scene left far more untold than told, IMHO. Is it possible for someone to be a bully to one person and not be a bully in general? I think so. When I think of a bully, I tend to think of someone who uses his larger size or social position or what have you to keep everyone around him/her in check. I like very much that we saw more complexity to all the adult characters, but most especially Harry's revered father. We the readers all mostly thought that Harry was like his father .... when really he's much more his mother's son from what we know now (brings new light to one of my favorite lines from PoA: "You are truly your father's son, Harry," which now seems more a description of Harry's bravado and daring in carrying off Sirius' rescue than a statement about James' *character*). Which brings me to......... Debbie: <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snape is still judging Harry based on his appearance though! I find that utterly despicable. He doesn't allow himself to move past the fact that Harry is physically the very image of James and get to know who Harry is as a person before he begins to carry out his revenge on the next generation. I can't appreciate Snape's "need" to do this at all. I can appreciate that Snape was bullied terribly by James and Sirius *based on our current knowledge* .... but I can't at all appreciate how this could in any way excuse his classic Austenesque flaw of judging others solely by surface appearances. LILY -- I suspect this may have made it on to the main list already, but I haven't seen the issue discussed here I don't think. Professor Dresang, in her presentation on Hermione at Nimbus, noted that the shippers had earlier that day neglected to discuss Lily's likenesses to Hermione and what, if anything, that might mean for the shipping. Lily seems a very direct likeness of Hermione from the glimpses we have of her now from the Pensieve scene (though, admittedly, this fell far short of Rowling's promise that we would see lots more Lily in the 5th book.........those Rowling interviews, gotta watch out for drawing conclusions!). Anyway ....... what might this mean for shipping? Do men marry women who remind them of their mothers? Hermione does have some of Molly in her too, though it pains me deeply to admit it (since Molly is now one of my least favorite characters). If men do marry women who remind them of their mothers, then Harry could easily find resonances of his mother in either Hermione or Ginny. [On a personal note, I don't think I'm the least bit like my mother-in-law! :--)] It's all very interesting. You have Hermione being physically nothing like Lily or Molly, but being very much a blend of them in terms of personality. I would note that Rowling has indicated in interviews (ha!) that Hermione has and will continue to "lighten up" more and more. I would take from that statement that maybe Rowling doesn't value the bossiness/fussiness traits so very much. Then, you have Ginny, who could be physically very similar to Lily .... and of course, the new "Feisty" Ginny might well have some of Lily's personality, though I think the whole "championing the underdog" and being able to coolly stick up for herself are more obviously Hermione traits than Ginny traits. A question that occurs to me about Ginny's physical appearance: her facial expressions remind Harry forcefully of Fred/George at one point in OoP and we know that she is "small" (short? slender? both?). We know that Arthur, Bill, Percy and Ron are tall and thin; whereas Molly, Charlie and the Twins are shorter and stockier. So, did Ginny manage to get the shorter but not the stockier build? Any thoughts? Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 20:04:50 2003 From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:04:50 -0000 Subject: Austen Parallels; Snape (yes, Snape); James; Lily; and oh ....some shipping here & there (of course!) In-Reply-To: <05c401c356a5$dc4e7df0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: > A question that occurs to me about Ginny's physical appearance: > her facial expressions remind Harry forcefully of Fred/George at > one point in OoP and we know that she is "small" (short? > slender? both?). We know that Arthur, Bill, Percy and Ron are > tall and thin; whereas Molly, Charlie and the Twins are shorter > and stockier. So, did Ginny manage to get the shorter but not the > stockier build? Any thoughts? I'm guessing that when the twins called her small that they were referring to an overall petite build. I doubt that she's stocky as she would have been an unlikely candidate to take Harry's place as Seeker in that case. Cho is also remarkably small. (When Harry was in third year and she was in fourth she is described as a head shorter than him! And he was a 'midget' a year later when HE was in fourth year!) In fact, it's rather surprising that we hear of so many male Seekers and relatively few female Seekers; the girls would seem to be less likely to get heavy as they approach their seventh year, whereas the boys would be likely to bulk up a bit by then. --Barb From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 20:53:49 2003 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:53:49 -0000 Subject: Austen Parallels; Snape (yes, Snape); James; Lily; and oh ....some shipping In-Reply-To: <05c401c356a5$dc4e7df0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: > I too saw the parallel between the DEs levitating the muggles and the way Snape was treated by James, even before someone mentioned it on this list or HPfGU. > > But, unlike Debbie, I did not perceive James and Sirius as bullies before OoP. I'm not entirely sure that I'd say they were "bullies" per se even now. As far as we know, Snape was the only target of their bullying behavior. Snape's Pensieve Scene left far more untold than told, IMHO. Is it possible for someone to be a bully to one person and not be a bully in general? I think so. When I think of a bully, I tend to think of someone who uses his larger size or social position or what have you to keep everyone around him/her in check. << But that's the way school bullies act. It's always one or two kids who get picked on, while everybody else laughs or does nothing and is secretly glad it's not them. The victims aren't just any smaller weaker kids, they're the smaller weaker kids who don't know their place. By squelching them, the bullies send a message to everybody. The way Snape followed MWPP out to the grounds also made me think of the Bertha Jorkins pensieve episode, where she complains of being hexed, and Dumbledore says, "But why, Bertha, why did you have to follow him in the first place?" . > Debbie: <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Penny: Snape is still judging Harry based on his appearance though! I find that utterly despicable. He doesn't allow himself to move past the fact that Harry is physically the very image of James and get to know who Harry is as a person before he begins to carry out his revenge on the next generation. I can't appreciate Snape's "need" to do this at all. I can appreciate that Snape was bullied terribly by James and Sirius *based on our current knowledge* .... but I can't at all appreciate how this could in any way excuse his classic Austenesque flaw of judging others solely by surface appearances. <<< Snape has been judged by appearances all his life. His looks seem to be what James, Peter and Lupin objected to about him, judging by the insults from the Map. Snape was looking right at Harry when pain seared across Harry's scar at the opening feast and he clapped a hand to his forehead. *We* know it had nothing to do with Snape. But did Snape know that? Did he mistake Harry's action as mugging dislike of Snape's looks? Pippin From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 21:03:22 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:03:22 -0000 Subject: Austen Parallels and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Debbie wrote: > I'm beginning to see the Prank as the defining "come to Jesus" > moment of James' life, when he finally realizes that bullying > can be deadly (and if we take JKR's hints, perhaps in more ways > than one). Debbie! You can't write a teaser like this and not expound upon it! Please, please, tell me more about these "hints"! ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 30 21:06:08 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:06:08 -0000 Subject: Percy's Morning Hair (WAS: an OT story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Catherine wrote: > "That's how we got Chris Rankin, who plays Percy Weasley in the > Harry Potter films, to come down to answer questions from the crowd > about his forthcoming movie, The Prisoner of Azkaban." You absolutely, positively *must* tell us whether he displayed his morning hair after you see him! ~Phyllis