Austen Parallels; Snape (yes, Snape); James; Lily; and oh ....some shipping here & there (of course!)

[pennylin]

Hi --

Well, now that Nimbus is behind us by more than a week, I'm ready for some good canon discussions.  :--)

AUSTEN PARALLELS --

Heidi wrote:

> I'm off to deal with 14 year olds who are responding to my draco-
> darcy comparison by saying that they think Harry and Ginny are 
going > to get together later, like in Emma with Emma and Mr Knightly.>>> 
> 
Debbie: <<<<<My theory, such as it is, is that JKR drew extensively from Austen in drawing all of her major characters, with some parallels more obvious than others.  However, I'm not at all convinced that she's pulled her plotlines from Austen, especially the romantic ones.>>>>>>>>>>>

Barb said, in a similar vein:

<<<I don't believe that JKR ever intends to echo any of the Austen 
plots, romantic or otherwise, in her novels.  (If we ever discover 
what on earth got Lily and James together that opinion could change, 
but I still don't see her doing it with Harry's generation.)  What I 
see in the existing HP books which is sometimes Austen-esque are her 
descriptions of people, such as the Dursleys (especially Petunia and 
Marge) and her use of McGonagall.>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm no Jane Austen expert (though I did re-read all of her novels at some point in the year I was nursing Elizabeth), but I agree with Debbie and Barb.  I missed hearing Karin Westman's "When Harry Met Jane" presentation at Nimbus because I was presenting on Geography at the time, and I'd be interested to hear what she had to say on this.  Debbie, you attended that one, didn't you?  It seems to me that there are not exact parallels to be drawn between specific Austen characters and specific Rowling characters.  There are some similarities here and there, but I don't think it's yet risen to a level that anyone can point to 2 characters and say that the romance angle will play out as it did in Austen because the Rowling characters are perfect parallels of Austen ones.  I agree that McGonagall is classic Austen (which is no doubt why my husband the Austen fan rolls in laughter at most McGonagall lines).  But, I don't think Hermione or Harry or Ron or Draco or Ginny have any specific parallels.  I do think, though, that if there's any parallel to be drawn in the *relationship* between Emma and Mr. Knightley, then it's Harry and Hermione.  You knew I'd say that, didn't you?  <g>  No seriously, I can see Hermione as Mr. Knightley and Harry as Emma more than anything else.  Hermione is Harry's conscience, and we see Harry acknowledging this specifically in OoP.  We see Hermione guiding Harry to the right conclusions, again and again.  But do I think that Rowling intends us to see a parallel between Hermione/Mr. Knightley and Harry/Emma and leap to the conclusion that H/H is a foregone conclusion?  No, definitely not.  

I think Rowling pays homage to Austen more in the manner in which she hides textual clues to the mysteries of her books than in any specific character or plot parallels.  And while I do think Rowling is clearly and intentionally laying some shipping "clues" that are ambiguous enough to keep everyone guessing, I think she's also laying clues in a non-shipping context to the more central mysteries of the series, in Austenesque fashion.        

SNAPE --
 
Amanda: > I had completely missed this, and found it chilling, especially the 
> similarity of treatment of the victim. I'm at work now, can't 
analyze 
> much, but I was stunned that I'd totally missed this and wanted to 
> get other thoughts. Thoughts?

Debbie: <<<<<I did see this parallel.  I had rather suspected before reading OOP that Sirius and James might be bullies, but the cruelty they displayed in the pensieve scene really surprised me, and the QWC 
parallel brought it home.  I can see why Sirius might want to choose 
Snape as a target -- Snape acts like Mrs. Black would find him a much 
better son than Sirius himself, and therefore Snape provokes a strong 
emotional reaction from Sirius.  His antipathy for Snape, while ugly, 
is an honest, if misguided emotion.  But the worst behaviour in this 
scene seems to come from James, which the QWC parallel particularly 
highlights.  We don't get the sense of any gripe James might have 
against Snape, just as the DEs have no gripe against the Robertses.  
Insead, we see James elevating arrogance to a level that disgusted me 
as much as it did Harry -- picking on Snape because he *exists* and 
his appreciation for Pettigrew's sycophancy -- his fatal flaws, 
methinks.  I'm beginning to see the Prank as the defining "come to 
Jesus" moment of James' life, when he finally realizes that bullying 
can be deadly (and if we take JKR's hints, perhaps in more ways than 
one).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I too saw the parallel between the DEs levitating the muggles and the way Snape was treated by James, even before someone mentioned it on this list or HPfGU.  

But, unlike Debbie, I did not perceive James and Sirius as bullies before OoP.  I'm not entirely sure that I'd say they were "bullies" per se even now.  As far as we know, Snape was the only target of their bullying behavior.  Snape's Pensieve Scene left far more untold than told, IMHO.  Is it possible for someone to be a bully to one person and not be a bully in general?  I think so.  When I think of a bully, I tend to think of someone who uses his larger size or social position or what have you to keep everyone around him/her in check.  

I like very much that we saw more complexity to all the adult characters, but most especially Harry's revered father.  We the readers all mostly thought that Harry was like his father .... when really he's much more his mother's son from what we know now (brings new light to one of my favorite lines from PoA: "You are truly your father's son, Harry," which now seems more a description of Harry's bravado and daring in carrying off Sirius' rescue than a statement about James' *character*).  Which brings me to.........    

Debbie: <<<<<After reading this scene, one can really appreciate Snape's need to start attempting to squelch any arrogant tendencies of Harry's the minute he first lays eyes on him.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Snape is still judging Harry based on his appearance though!  I find that utterly despicable.  He doesn't allow himself to move past the fact that Harry is physically the very image of James and get to know who Harry is as a person before he begins to carry out his revenge on the next generation.  I can't appreciate Snape's "need" to do this at all.  I can appreciate that Snape was bullied terribly by James and Sirius *based on our current knowledge* .... but I can't at all appreciate how this could in any way excuse his classic Austenesque flaw of judging others solely by surface appearances.  

LILY --  I suspect this may have made it on to the main list already, but I haven't seen the issue discussed here I don't think.  Professor Dresang, in her presentation on Hermione at Nimbus, noted that the shippers had earlier that day neglected to discuss Lily's likenesses to Hermione and what, if anything, that might mean for the shipping.  Lily seems a very direct likeness of Hermione from the glimpses we have of her now from the Pensieve scene (though, admittedly, this fell far short of Rowling's promise that we would see lots more Lily in the 5th book.........those Rowling interviews, gotta watch out for drawing conclusions!).  Anyway ....... what might this mean for shipping?  Do men marry women who remind them of their mothers?  Hermione does have some of Molly in her too, though it pains me deeply to admit it (since Molly is now one of my least favorite characters).  If men do marry women who remind them of their mothers, then Harry could easily find resonances of his mother in either Hermione or Ginny.  [On a personal note, I don't think I'm the least bit like my mother-in-law!  :--)]

It's all very interesting.  You have Hermione being physically nothing like Lily or Molly, but being very much a blend of them in terms of personality.  I would note that Rowling has indicated in interviews (ha!) that Hermione has and will continue to "lighten up" more and more.  I would take from that statement that maybe Rowling doesn't value the bossiness/fussiness traits so very much.  Then, you have Ginny, who could be physically very similar to Lily .... and of course, the new "Feisty" Ginny might well have some of Lily's personality, though I think the whole "championing the underdog" and being able to coolly stick up for herself are more obviously Hermione traits than Ginny traits.  

A question that occurs to me about Ginny's physical appearance: her facial expressions remind Harry forcefully of Fred/George at one point in OoP and we know that she is "small" (short?  slender?  both?).  We know that Arthur, Bill, Percy and Ron are tall and thin; whereas Molly, Charlie and the Twins are shorter and stockier.  So, did Ginny manage to get the shorter but not the stockier build?  Any thoughts?

Penny  

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