From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid  Wed Oct  8 17:56:56 2003
From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:56:56 -0000
Subject: Was the MoM built around the Arch? , The Kiss v Death
Message-ID: <bm1j58+m9vm@...>

  
Following OoP, I have felt that the MoM was constructed 
around the Chamber of Death. IMO, the arch and the veil predate the 
MoM. I think that they are a link between our world and the next, 
perhaps a place where it is easier to pass on quickly, I don't know. 

That has led me to think that once, the WW used (or perhaps abused 
even), the Veil to "execute" people, hence the space around the 
platform, allowing spectators. I think that they built the whole of 
the MoM, but particularly the chamber where the Wizengamot sits, and 
of course the Department of Mysteries, to be close to the Veil.

I also think that the WW don't have the death penalty anymore. 
Whilst this mirrors our own Muggle culture, I note that they do have 
something which is arguably worse than death - as Lupin says "Much 
worse than that" p. 183 PoA UK edition. They have the "Kiss".

I wonder if this is what Dumbledore is thinking about in his duel 
against Voldemort in the MoM, when he tells Voldemort that death 
wouldn't be sufficient for him? IIRC, Dumbledore has said that a 
weakness of Voldemort's is his failure to recognise that anything 
can be worse than death. If you see death as marking the transition 
between this world and the "next great adventure", but see the Kiss 
as being an end, then it is quite easy to see that death is not the 
worst thing that can happen to you.

Perhaps it is Harry's belief that he will see Sirius again, rather 
than his love for him by itself, that saves him from Voldemort's 
possession? If this is the case, then I'm willing to hazard a guess 
that this fundamental difference between Harry and Voldemort will be 
absolutely key to the resolution of Book 7. This idea can be tied in 
with the idea of saving one's soul, and can perhaps be linked back 
to JKR's religious beliefs - supposedly a key to the ending of the 
books.

Ali





From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Fri Oct 10 04:12:00 2003
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:12:00 -0000
Subject: Was the MoM built around the Arch? , The Kiss v Death
In-Reply-To: <bm1j58+m9vm@...>
Message-ID: <bm5big+udja@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:
>   
> Following OoP, I have felt that the MoM was constructed 
> around the Chamber of Death. IMO, the arch and the veil predate the 
> MoM. I think that they are a link between our world and the next, 
> perhaps a place where it is easier to pass on quickly, I don't know. 

How many such doorways for one planet Earth? 

> I note that they do have something which is arguably worse than 
> death - as Lupin says "Much worse than that" p. 183 PoA UK edition.
> They have the "Kiss".
> 
> I wonder if this is what Dumbledore is thinking about in his duel 
> against Voldemort in the MoM, when he tells Voldemort that death 
> wouldn't be sufficient for him? 

I kind of thought that what Dumbledore had in mind as what fate of
Voldemort would satisfy him is: Voldemort realising how wrong he'd
been, which would make him feel utterly humiliated.




From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Fri Oct 10 04:16:00 2003
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:16:00 -0000
Subject: Fwd: more Texas Quidditch
Message-ID: <bm5bq0+bajh@...>

--- In HPFGU-Announcements at yahoogroups.com, "mstattersall"
<cwood at t...> wrote:
Greetings, fellow muggles. http://www.texasquidditch.com has recently
been updated with additional evidence of Quidditch being played in 
Texas. If you have not visited the site before, view the "Original
Seeker Report" first before going to the update. We have obtained a
photo of what appears to be a kneazle...
--- End forwarded message ---







From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Oct 12 08:36:23 2003
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 08:36:23 -0000
Subject: Black Thoughts
Message-ID: <bmb3q7+2gnc@...>

If I'm remembering some of the facts from OoP incorrectly, people
correcting me will cause a flurry of activity on this list.

Sirius said that Molly Weasley was some kind of cousin by marriage to
him. I think he would say that if his grandfather had a sister, Miss
Black, and Molly's father had a sister (I make up a name), Miss Lovin,
and Miss Black and Miss Lovin each married a wizard, and those two
wizards were brothers. 

(If the two brothers' family name was Goodknight, then the wedding
announcement section of the paper (possibly the Daily Prophet, but 
for my own reasons I prefer to believe that they have a separate 
paper just for birth, engagement, marriage, death, and maybe divorce
announcements, named The Wizarding Register) would headline the one
announce ment Black-Goodknight Nuptuals and the other Lovin-Goodknight
Marriage. Then if the daughter of one of those couples married and
eventually became the mother of one of Harry's classmates, the
headline would be Goodknight-Moon Wedding.)

As I remember it, Sirius said Phineas Nigellus was his great-great-
grandfather and Arthur Weasley is his fifth cousin twice removed. 
IIRC someone said on main list that fifth cousin twice removed means
that their common ancestor was a great-great-grandparent of Sirius 
and a grandparent of Arthur, and it was probably Phineas Nigellus as
he is the only great-great-grandparent of Sirius specially pointed 
out by the text.

So I've been thinking ... That Phineas Nigellus named his daughter
Melanie Maura (and she became ancestress of Arthur Weasley) and named
his son Ciaran Cole. Ciaran Cole married a witch named Celestia (I
love that name, which was the name of the late great-aunt of a friend 
of mine) and gave their children names that reflected their mother's
name: Selene for the daughter who married Mr. Goodknight, Saturninus
for the oldest son, and Scorpius for the younger son.

In my universe, Saturninus and Scorpius both married and brought 
their wives home to 12 Grimmauld Place. (Six adults and eventually
four children, it must have been crowded.) Saturninus had two sons:
Sirius's father and Bellatrix's father. Scorpius had two daughters:
Elladora (if she was in the Black house since babyhood, she had a lot
of time to behead House Elves) and Sirius's mother. It would be tidy
if the wife's sister (Elladora) married the husband's brother
(Saturninus's other son) but tidiness lacks verisimulitude.  

(Some will tell me that it is illegal for first cousins to marry. 
That is true in some US states but not others, and why should wizards
have as many laws as Muggles? Some will tell me that it is disgusting
for first cousins to marry. So are a lot of other things those Blacks
did.)

So my current obsession to figure out their names, which surely must
be the second generation of the astronomical name tradition, altho'
that means I have to invent a way for "Elladora" to be astronomical.
If only it was "Essadora", I could say she was named after the star S
Doradus ... www.onelook.com led me to
http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Glossary/Glossary_D.html which
says: "S Doradus: A supergiant eclipsing binary (an Eta Carinae-type
object) in the Large Magellanic Cloud. It has a period of about 40
years. [H76]" and also says: "30 Doradus (NGC 2070): A giant HII
region, at least 300 pc across - one of the largest known - in the
Large Magellanic Cloud. It is larger and more luminous than any known
in the Galaxy. It is the brightest object (Mv = - 19) in the Cloud at
both optical and radio wavelengths, and contains the densest
concentration of W-R stars. (The brightest object near the center 
is a O+ WN star of Mv = - 10.2.) It is characterized by very rapid,
disordered, and complex motions. [H76]"

Here are websites I used to research Black family names:
http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/sowlist.html
http://www.r-clarke.org.uk/propernames1.htm
http://www.dibonsmith.com/menu.htm 

Alphard is Alpha Hydrae and the name means 'solitary'. Maybe his
parents just liked the name, or maybe he was the oldest son of a
father with a watery personal name, like Posidonius or Marinus or
Pelagius or Galen or Njord. Or Walter. 

Lately, I am imagining that Alphard was Selene's son -- first cousin
once removed to Sirius, but 'Uncle' is an easier title to say -- and
he never married or had children (I can use the name as evidence), 
so he took an interest in the little Blacks and the little Lovin
Goodknights. Maybe he had a lot of money and his will divided it 
among all the younger generation, or maybe he had somewhat less and
left it all to Sirius. If so, why did he particularly like Sirius?  

I like to think that one of Saturninus's sons was named Dubhe, Alpha
Ursae Major, one of the two "pointers" which point one way to Polaris
and the other way to Regulus, meaning 'bear', and sounding, to my
inept ears, like the Dhu that means 'black' in Irish. 

I like to think that Sirius's mother was named after the star Cursa
(of which I had never heard until this research). I like that it 
looks like "curse", altho' apparently it actually means "footstool of
Orion" -- (the said footstool is a four star group next to Rigel, of
which Cursa is the brightest). Another possibility is Shaula, which 
is the stinger of Scorpio and means 'sting'.





From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid  Sun Oct 12 21:01:37 2003
From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:01:37 -0000
Subject: Was the MoM built around the Arch? , The Kiss v Death
In-Reply-To: <bm5big+udja@...>
Message-ID: <bmcffh+jlc@...>

I had written:-
   
> > Following OoP, I have felt that the MoM was constructed 
 around the Chamber of Death. IMO, the arch and the veil predate the 
MoM. I think that they are a link between our world and the next,  
perhaps a place where it is easier to pass on quickly, I don't know. 
 
Catlady replied:-

>>> How many such doorways for one planet Earth? >>

Sorry, I'm not quite with you. Why would it be relevant how many 
doorways there are? The idea of there being a gateway between this 
life and the next is common in mythology. Orpheus, Aeaneas and 
Gilgamesh all visit the underworld, via portals. I am suggesting 
that the arch is some kind of portal. We've already been introduced 
to Cerebrus in the guise of Fluffy, the three headed dog who guards 
the entrance of Hades, so why not go one stage further and have an 
entrance to the Underworld itself? I am suggesting that this is a 
place where it is easy to make the cross over, implying that you can 
reach the Underworld by other means. But, I do not have any 
suggestions about what these might be.

I wrote:-
 
> > I note that they do have something which is arguably worse than 
 death - as Lupin says "Much worse than that" p. 183 PoA UK edition.
 They have the "Kiss".
 
 I wonder if this is what Dumbledore is thinking about in his duel 
 against Voldemort in the MoM, when he tells Voldemort that death 
 wouldn't be sufficient for him? <<<

Catlady again:- 

 <<<I kind of thought that what Dumbledore had in mind as what fate 
of Voldemort would satisfy him is: Voldemort realising how wrong he'd
 been, which would make him feel utterly humiliated.>>>

So, when the thing that Voldemort most hates in the whole world is 
death, Dumbledore really believes that abject humiliation is worse, 
or do you mean that Dumbledore would humiliate Voldemort before 
killing him? That is certainly not how I read that passage. 
Dumbeldore says: "We both know that there are other ways of 
destroying a man, Tom... merely taking your life would not satisfy 
me, I admit" OoP p. 718 UK edition.

Dumbledore has watched as friend after friend has died at the hands 
of Voldemort. He himself says that death would be insufficient. I 
cannot see how humiliation alone would be worse than death to 
Dumbledore however much he does believe in an afterlife. Voldemort 
seems only able to feel pain by goodness touching him. I cannot see 
at this moment in time how humiliation would provoke the pain. 
Voldemort can dish out humiliation to others, it is something that 
he understands. Dumbledore's desired end for him must I think be on 
a different scale again. IMHO, Soul removal would seem to fit the 
bill.

We already have JKR suggesting through Lupin that there is something 
worse than death - loss of one's soul. We have already seen how the 
hero has had to fight against soul removal in both PoA and OoP. The 
Dementors seemed to be very keen on Harry, more so than on other 
people. Now, arguably, this was because he had such bad memories 
which they could feed on. But, I think this argument is a bit weak 
when considering the Quidditch scene where Harry fainted. Harry 
would have been full of exhiliaration when hordes of dementors 
decided to go for him. No, there is something extra special about 
Harry that makes him a particular appealing target for the Dementors.

Dumbledore himself tells Voldemort that [his] "failure to understand 
that there are things much worse than death has always been [his] 
greatest weakness" p 718 OoP UK edition. 

I don't then think it is unreasonable to conclude that as losing 
one's soul has been identified in the Potterverse as worse than 
death, that this shouldn't be what Dumbledore has in mind for 
Voldemort. There are obviously many differences between Harry and 
Voldemort, and many similarities. But, a fundamental difference *is* 
that in wanting to die so that he'll see Sirius again, Harry is 
recognising life after death. This, is something that Voldemort 
seems unable to comprehend. Indeed, his goal is "to conquer death" 
GoF p.566. In wanting immortality, Voldemort is striving never to 
take the "next great adventure".

Ali




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Oct 13 03:57:14 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:57:14 -0000
Subject: Was the MoM built around the Arch? , The Kiss v Death
In-Reply-To: <bmcffh+jlc@...>
Message-ID: <bmd7qq+9nu7@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:
> I had written:-

> I wrote:-
>  
> > > I note that they do have something which is arguably worse 
than 
>  death - as Lupin says "Much worse than that" p. 183 PoA UK 
edition.
>  They have the "Kiss".
>  
>  I wonder if this is what Dumbledore is thinking about in his 
duel   against Voldemort in the MoM, when he tells Voldemort 
that death  wouldn't be sufficient for him? <<<
> 
> Catlady again:- 
> 
>  <<<I kind of thought that what Dumbledore had in mind as 
what fate of Voldemort would satisfy him is: Voldemort realising 
how wrong he'd  been, which would make him feel utterly 
humiliated.>>>

I thought what Dumbledore meant is that the way Voldemort is 
now, utterly given over to evil, is worse than death, and that 
Dumbledore doesn't want anyone to die unredeemed. What 
Dumbledore would really like is for Tom to repent.  But since 
Tom has  almost destroyed himself  as a human, that  seems 
impossible.

Ali:
> We already have JKR suggesting through Lupin that there is 
something  worse than death - loss of one's soul. We have 
already seen how the  hero has had to fight against soul removal 
in both PoA and OoP. The Dementors seemed to be very keen 
on Harry, more so than on other  people. Now, arguably, this was 
because he had such bad memories 
> which they could feed on. But, I think this argument is a bit 
weak  when considering the Quidditch scene where Harry 
fainted. Harry  would have been full of exhiliaration when hordes 
of dementors  decided to go for him. No, there is something 
extra special about  Harry that makes him a particular appealing 
target for the Dementors.
>

Sirius was there too. And now we now you can see the Quidditch 
pitch from the DADA professor's office, ch 13 OOP. *Were*  the 
Dementors after Harry? Or did EverSoEvil Lupin, curled up in his 
office but with his human mind intact,  spot Sirius from his 
window and somehow send the Dementors after him? 

Pippin





From klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid  Mon Oct 13 15:13:30 2003
From: klmsign99 at klmsign99.yahoo.invalid (klmsign99)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:13:30 -0000
Subject: Was the MoM built around the Arch? , The Kiss v Death
In-Reply-To: <bmd7qq+9nu7@...>
Message-ID: <bmefeq+gpf9@...>

> Ali:
> > We already have JKR suggesting through Lupin that there is 
> something  worse than death - loss of one's soul. We have 
> already seen how the  hero has had to fight against soul removal 
> in both PoA and OoP. The Dementors seemed to be very keen 
> on Harry, more so than on other  people. Now, arguably, this was 
> because he had such bad memories 
> > which they could feed on. But, I think this argument is a bit 
> weak  when considering the Quidditch scene where Harry 
> fainted. Harry  would have been full of exhiliaration when hordes 
> of dementors  decided to go for him. No, there is something 
> extra special about  Harry that makes him a particular appealing 
> target for the Dementors.
> >
Pippen: 
> Sirius was there too. And now we now you can see the Quidditch 
> pitch from the DADA professor's office, ch 13 OOP. *Were*  the 
> Dementors after Harry? Or did EverSoEvil Lupin, curled up in his 
> office but with his human mind intact,  spot Sirius from his 
> window and somehow send the Dementors after him? 
> 




This an interesting point of view that I never thought of before.  
But I'm not sure I would go as far as calling Lupin EverSoEvil.  We 
have to remember that for most of Book 3 he probably believes that 
Sirius IS guilty as he has no proof otherwise.  He lost 3 friends 
that night and has no proof that Sirius is in anyway (to our 
knowledge) innocent.  It would be perfectly natural for him to call 
the dementors over.  It would cover some of his guilt for not giving 
Dumbledore all the information he had, and yet he would be doing 
something to help capture Black.  

In defence of Lupin, while a fun theory, I don't think that he 
called the dementors.  I think JKR was establishing that the 
Dementors were NOT under full control of the ministry so that later 
it wasn't completely unexpected that they attempt to kiss Harry.


Kris 
(who's been reading along, but hasn't had time to respond to 
anything)




From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Mon Oct 20 18:05:13 2003
From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:05:13 +0100
Subject: A big bat bogey hex to Andrew Davies...
Message-ID: <8WasdcBZPCl$IwyD@...>

...For saying on The Big Read on Saturday night, that the Harry Potter 
books are unreadable, that her characters are merely "stock", that she 
can't write, and that he admires all those poor parents who are forced 
to read the books to their children.  That's after he admitted to only 
having read the first 30 pages of one of them.

I can forgive Andrew Davies for a lot - he was, after all, responsible 
for Colin Firth emerging from that lake in Pride and Prejudice (he wrote 
the screenplay, for anyone who doesn't know) - but slating JKR and 
dismissing the books when he hasn't even read them?  Gah.  How dare he?

Catherine





From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Tue Oct 21 16:43:43 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:43:43 -0000
Subject: A big bat bogey hex to Andrew Davies...
In-Reply-To: <8WasdcBZPCl$IwyD@...>
Message-ID: <bn3nnv+76dn@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman 
<catherine at c...> wrote:
> ...For saying on The Big Read on Saturday night, that the Harry 
> Potter books are unreadable, that her characters are 
> merely "stock", that she can't write, and that he admires all 
> those poor parents who are forced to read the books to their 
> children.  That's after he admitted to only having read the first 
> 30 pages of one of them.

Um, sour grapes much?  (Why do I think he'd change his tune if he 
were suddenly tapped to write the screenplay for OotP?)  I have no 
idea how many times I've read the HP books aloud to my kids. IT'S 
JUST PLAIN FUN!  This is how my daughter first became hooked:

She heard me reading CoS aloud to my son (Harry's detention with 
Lockhart, when he's helping with the fan mail) and all of Lockhart's 
dialogue and JKR's descriptions of him simply put her into hysterics 
(must have been the delivery, she said modestly <g>).  It was 
specifically hearing it READ ALOUD that roped her in (she was ROFL, 
and for once that's not hyperbole).  Now she's read the first four 
books ten times each (some of that is having them read to her) and 
OotP three times.  (She's working on catching up to her count for 
the other books). 

I can only say that it's his loss.  He doesn't know what he's 
missing, and he obviously doesn't care.

--Barb





From witchwanda2002 at witchwanda2002.yahoo.invalid  Sun Oct 26 12:32:43 2003
From: witchwanda2002 at witchwanda2002.yahoo.invalid (Wanda the *B*Witch)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 04:32:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Muggles are here!
Message-ID: <20031026123243.94303.qmail@...>

Happy Sunday everybody!




 
WANDA   f   English
Pronounced: WAWN-da
Possibly means "a Wend", referring to the Slavic people who inhabited eastern Germany.
WANDA (f.) - Teutonic 'wanderer'; so R?na
 
Merenwen Oronr? (elvish)
 






 














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From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Oct 26 15:16:08 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:16:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Muggles are here!
In-Reply-To: <20031026123243.94303.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <20031026151608.53179.qmail@...>

Hey Everyone!

Check out Ziggy in the Sunday funny papers today!

Muggles are everywhere!

Randy

Obviously, some Hogwarts graduates have been playing
tricks on major league baseball this month!  Way to go
Marlins!


--- Wanda the *B*Witch <witchwanda2002 at ...>
wrote:
> Happy Sunday everybody!
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> WANDA   f   English
> Pronounced: WAWN-da
> Possibly means "a Wend", referring to the Slavic
> people who inhabited eastern Germany.
> WANDA (f.) - Teutonic 'wanderer'; so Rna
>  
> Merenwen Oronr (elvish)
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
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> 
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
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From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Tue Oct 28 22:25:42 2003
From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:25:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slightly OT:  HP for Grown-Ups site?
In-Reply-To: <bmefeq+gpf9@...>
Message-ID: <20031028222542.54394.qmail@...>

I received the below e-mail from a friend in CA - anyone know the link?  The one I have must be out of date, because I got a msg saying, "This group does not exist."  Does the group still exist and, if so, could I get a link?  Thanks!
 
>>>
Thank you for keeping me in your prayers about the fire... it is better except the air quality is really bad. We are at hazard level. Anyways, I wanted to ask you if you could send me a link to Harry Potter for grown ups. I was on the list before, but I had to get off for a little while, and I lost where it is. If you could, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!
>>>


~JoAnna~
http://pt4ever.diaryland.com

William Shakespeare walks into a London pub.  The bartender takes one look at him and says, "I'm sorry, sir, we can't serve you here.  You're bard."

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From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid  Wed Oct 29 11:14:30 2003
From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:14:30 -0000
Subject: The case for Dudley, the latent wizard
Message-ID: <bno7em+im8j@...>

Also posted on the main list

My Dursley obsession continues...

JKR has told us that someone will find magic late in life. To date,
there appear to be only 4 people who could credibly find this gift.
They are Filch, Arabella Figg, Dudley and Petunia.

There are of course many Muggles mentioned in the Potterverse. It is
certainly possible that any one of these could develop or find
latent magical powers. But, whilst we can hypothesise that Aunt
Marge or Colonel Fubster might suddenly magically blow things up or
survive being thrown out of a window, so far, neither these two, or
any of the other characters have contributed much to the story.
Whilst finding that they are magical might make an enormous
difference to them, it would not appear to make a great deal of
difference to Harry.

What would change if Filch could do magic? Filch could be quite
dangerous. His squibness represents impotence to him. He hates the
students who can do what he can not. And yet, IMO he is now so
bitter, so thwarted, that I personally can not see the sudden
emergence of magic prowess adding much to his character. He would
continue to be unsavoury, warped and twisted.

Arabella Figg might suddenly find magical powers, and in doing so,
might save Harry's life. That would certainly add to the story. Yet,
even if this were to be the case, it would only be an extension of
her role to date. Arabella's role of protector to Harry might have
been hidden, but it was none-the-less there, and it was in fact her
quick thinking that saved Harry from expulsion after he had fought
off the Dementors at the beginning of OoP.

If Arabella hadn't been suspicious of Mundungus' reliability, then
she would not have stationed her cat as a secondary guard. She would
not have witnessed the attack and thus provided Harry with an
independent, if not wholly credible witness in his hearing. Nor,
would she have been able to advise Mundungus to contact Dumbledore
PDQ. If Dumbledore had not acted so swiftly, Harry would have been
expelled from Hogwarts, his wand would have been destroyed ? or
Harry would have gone AWOL.

The impact on Harry if Petunia or Dudley were to access latent
magical powers, could be immense. Petunia has spent all of Harry's
life hating him for his magical ability and I suspect his potential
for destroying her mundane existence. If Petunia were to discover
that she had magical powers, she might have to reassess her whole
relationship with Harry and the world that he belongs to. But,
Petunia, like Filch is *so* bitter, so constrained and damaged by
her earlier life that it is not hard to imagine her continuing to
deny her magical ability. I cannot see her buying a beginners guide
to magic and learning how to use a wand. She might involuntarily act
to save Dudley, or maybe (in my dreams) Harry, but that I suspect is
all.

Now, Dudley finding he is a wizard is a different kettle of fish
altogether. I can almost see Petunia re-enacting the parable of the
wind and the sun. In the parable, the wind and sun have a
competition to see who can remove a traveller's cloak the quickest.
The wind tries to blow the cloak off. In fact, it blows so hard that
the traveller is nearly swept off his feet, but clutches the cloak
even tighter around him. The sun on the other hand shines down upon
the traveller, who feeling rather hot, removes the cloak himself.
The moral of the story being that you can *persuade* someone to do
what you want by friendly action, rather than forcing them to. Thus,
if Dudley ever showed signs of magical powers as a young child, he
was dissuaded from trying to repeat the experience, by being
indulged in every possible aspect of his existence. Harry on the
other hand is "squashed" in an attempt to make him "normal". The
attempt of course fails and Harry goes off to Hogwarts. Harry spent
his life knowing that he's not normal. Normal kids aren't kept in
cupboards and don't receive coat hangers as birthday presents. Harry
will revel in his magical ability as it has become a way to express
himself, something Petunia has always denied him.

If Dudley found himself with magical ability? I like to assume that
Dudley once did something "funny", and that it is Petunia's reaction
to this that represents his worst memory. He might be aware of
something strange, but just not feel the need to question it. Now,
however, the position has changed.

He is a teenager, and however indulged he is at home, he isn't
truthful to his parents, and by lying to them already shows the
potential to rebel. Power and potency is something that matters to
Dudley. He is a bully, he likes to control, he likes to win. He has
in the past shown a marked lack of self-control. I think if he were
now to realise that he possessed magic powers he would be unable to
resist the temptation of trying to use them. I think that the effect
on Petunia would be momentous.

It is not hard to assume that Petunia suffered terribly because of
her sister's magical ability. We know she felt inferior, we know she
lost her sister at a young age and we know that she got landed with
her nephew. What we can suggest is that she also lost her parents
because of Lily's magical involvement.

For Petunia to witness Dudley discovering that he is a wizard would
surely be one of her worst fears confirmed. I think that she would
do almost *anything* to stop Dudley entering the WW.

Now, I know people have questioned whether Dumbledore would prevent
any child with magical abilities form entering Hogwarts. I would
agree, that in normal circumstances, he wouldn't, but anything to do
with Harry is a special case. If, Dumbledore thought that the only
way he could keep Harry safe was to deny Dudley his place, then IMO,
he would have done so.

Think about what Dumbledore says:-

"What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and
creatures were slaughtered in a vague future, if in the here and
now, you were alive, and well, and happy" OoP UK edition p. 739.

Now, it could be argued that Dumbledore only feels like this after
he has got to know Harry, but if Harry's importance to him is such
that he could let others die, then he could certainly deprive Dudley
of a place at Hogwarts. This is particularly so knowing how anti-
wizards, Dudley's parents are. Yep, Dudley could be magical and
might not know - yet.

Ali






From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Wed Oct 29 15:27:04 2003
From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:27:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] The case for Dudley, the latent wizard
In-Reply-To: <bno7em+im8j@...>
Message-ID: <20031029152704.39582.qmail@...>


What about in Philosopher's stone, when the Dursleys decide to put Harry in the second bedroom?  Dudley throws a tantrum and chucks his turtle through the greenhouse window (I don't have my copy available so I'm paraphrasing), but to no avail.  Also, in GoF, Dudley is forced, against his will, to follow a diet.  Don't you think these situations might be catalyst enough to "force" some magic out of him?

Though I would have to agree with you that Dudley seems the most likely candidate for showing magic later in life.  I also hope JKR can someday enlighten us as to what Dudley's worst memories were relived when he encountered the dementors (maybe having to follow the diet?  LOL!).


He is a teenager, and however indulged he is at home, he isn't
truthful to his parents, and by lying to them already shows the
potential to rebel. Power and potency is something that matters to
Dudley. He is a bully, he likes to control, he likes to win. He has
in the past shown a marked lack of self-control. I think if he were
now to realise that he possessed magic powers he would be unable to
resist the temptation of trying to use them. I think that the effect
on Petunia would be momentous.




~JoAnna~
http://pt4ever.diaryland.com

William Shakespeare walks into a London pub.  The bartender takes one look at him and says, "I'm sorry, sir, we can't serve you here.  You're bard."

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From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid  Wed Oct 29 17:22:02 2003
From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb2)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:22:02 -0000
Subject: Slightly OT:  HP for Grown-Ups site?
In-Reply-To: <20031028222542.54394.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <bnosvq+b68e@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, JoAnna Wahlund <pt4ever at y...> 
wrote:
> I received the below e-mail from a friend in CA - anyone know the 
link?  The one I have must be out of date, because I got a msg 
saying, "This group does not exist."  Does the group still exist and, 
if so, could I get a link?  Thanks!
>  
Yup, HPFGU still exists and is now hovering at around 11,000 members 
(fortunately, most of them are lurkers <g>).  Here's a link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/

Debbie