From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep  1 23:52:20 2003
From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:52:20 -0000
Subject: Is He Dead Jim? (very OT)
In-Reply-To: <bim5t9+i1qt@...>
Message-ID: <bj0m3k+3dfo@...>

I was just dropping in because I realized that I hadn't been here in 
a while, and I saw Randy's message, so I decided now would be a good 
time to say hi (since I'm not one of the 3 people who posted in 
August)...
I've been busy lately in my Alejandro Sanz club, preparing for the 
release of his new album ("No es lo mismo"--in stores 
tomorrow!)...just as things heated up around here with the arrival of 
OOP, people are very excited that our dear Alex is coming out with 
new material...
School starts tomorrow at 9:30, when my fellow teaching interns and I 
have a back-to-school planning meeting.  I'm the veteran of the 
group, so they're expecting me to share my "wisdom" with the newbies 
(even though I've only been doing this for a year!).  In case you 
were wondering, I'm a grad student majoring in communication and I 
teach the lab section of the undergraduate intro course.  Ahhh, 
college freshmen...a special brand of interesting, especially at the 
U of Hartford.
Hope everyone is doing well.  I will do my best to drop in more often 
this month, once the first-week-of-school business is out of the 
way.  
Aloha,
Kaitlin

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <estesrandy at y...> wrote:
> Has anyone noticed that 3 people account for over half of the 
> messages posted on this list in August?
> 
> Did everyone else dissapparate?
> 
> Perhaps we should pick a topic that someone would like to discuss?
> 
> Politics?
> Music?
> Other authors?
> 
> That jerk that keeps bothering me?
> That nice person I want to get to know?
> 
> Why does JKR have to kill off a great character and piss off half 
of 
> her fans?
> What I did on my summer vacation?
> 
> Who would I like to turn into a toad?
> Why does Neville have a toad?
> Is the toad an important character like Scabbers?
> Perhaps the toad is Voldemort's twin brother separated at Birth?
> 
> What brother?  You know the nicer looking one in the baby picture!
> Perhaps the toad is chewing all of that gum and leaving the 
wrappers!
> Perhaps Neville's twin brother was turned into the toad!
> Perhaps the toad carries the Mark of Voldemort and will save the 
day 
> at the end of the books!
> 
> Why did we ever let this guy on the list, anyway?
> 
> Is there anyone out there?
> 
> OKAY
> Let's say Harry,Ron, and Hermione walk into a bar....
> What do they say?
> "Ouch!"  
> Because it hurts when you walk into a bar! (and bonk your head or 
> something on the bar!)
> 
> Okay, Let's say the Toad leads the House Elfs in the next great Elf 
> rebellion and ...
> Hey!  Enough about the toad already!!!!
> Well, I was just trying to start some discussion....
> Well, this kind of inane drivel is what drove all these people away 
> in the first place!
> OK, I know when I'm not wanted.
> Fine.
> POOF!  Both of them dissapparate.




From john at queerasjohn.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 00:49:46 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.yahoo.invalid (Queer as John)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:49:46 -0400
Subject: It's worse than that, it's /physics/, Jim! (was Re: Is He Dead
	Jim? (very OT))
In-Reply-To: <bj0m3k+3dfo@...>
Message-ID: <BB79616A.1217D%john@...>

*waves* Hey folks.

I, too, am madly busy after my gallbladder surgery -- am all better now.
However, I'm without school to prep for -- for the first time in my life.
Very strange, that. I start an internship on Wednesday, and have been
shopping for clothes and sending out resumes as if they were going out of
style.

Other than that, I've been hanging out with fellow HP fans in NYC, writing
bits of ficcy goodness, working on some original stuff and generally
relaxing.

Hope everyone's well! I'll reiterate the offer of a LiveJournal invite code
if anybody without an LJ would like one.

Cheers,

--John


______________________________________

Queer as John || john at ...

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

Ahahahahaha! Ahahahaha! Aahahaha!
     BEWARE!!!!! 
        Yrs sincerely, The Opera Ghost
          --Terry Pratchett, Maskerade
______________________________________




From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 01:10:38 2003
From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:10:38 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is He Dead Jim? (and OTness and John's physics)
References: <bim5t9+i1qt@...>
Message-ID: <010501c370ef$06e0db40$17371c40@...>

First off all, sorry for the lurking,
it's what I do.  I don't usually have
much to add to anything and when I do
open my mouth I tend to babble (as those
whom read my LJ know.)

Kaitlin: Man you have a busy
life...sounds a bit fun though :o)

John: I won't comment on the surgery as
I'm already a bad friend who didn't even
know about it until today though I do
hope you're getting better.  Good luck
with the internship love.

Onto Randy's actual post:

<Perhaps we should pick a topic that
someone would like to discuss?

Politics?>

Oh please no.  Considering I went off at
a country fair on the subject I don't
think we need me to open my big mouth on
this issue.

<Music?>

Er, what's that?  Haven't listened to
anything besides Meatloaf in so long now
I forget what's "Hip" these days.

<Other authors?>

May I just state, proudly that I've
gotten to Book Four of Lord of the
Rings...and it's only taken
me...er...since January of the run of
Fellowship of the Ring the movie to get
there.  And now may I say these movies
are a load of crapishness.  The book's
much better.

<That jerk that keeps bothering me?>

Aw love, tell us all about the jerk...:o)

<Why does JKR have to kill off a great
character and piss off half of
her fans?>

Because it was necessary in her mind and
at least it wasn't Dumbledore.

<What I did on my summer vacation?>

Go for it...had to have been better than
mine where I spent three months reliving
the fact that my mom and I cannot live in
the same house without screaming at each
other (Yes, my summer vacation was spent
at my mother's....I know I'm weird)

<Who would I like to turn into a toad?>

Go for it, I have a nice list myself of
who should be toaded.

<Why does Neville have a toad?>

*shrugs*  Always wondered that myself.
It could be that whole bit in SS where
Hagrid mentions that no one has a toad
these day and then suddenly this kid
appears with a toad making him seem a
little...odd.   Of course, I could be
channeling fanfiction and not actually SS
so I'm not sure if that bit was there...

<Is the toad an important character like
Scabbers?>

Doubt it, though I wonder if Trevor the
Toad was actually Neville's
Parents/Grandmother's.  Again the whole
thing of no one these days having a toad.

<Perhaps the toad is Voldemort's twin
brother separated at Birth?>

*cocks eyebrow*  oookay.  Well that's a
theory.

<What brother?  You know the nicer
looking one in the baby picture!>

Tom was the nicer looking one, he didn't
turn ugly until later. *holds onto her
belief*

<Perhaps the toad is chewing all of that
gum and leaving the wrappers!>

Mean little toad.

<Perhaps Neville's twin brother was
turned into the toad!>

By who?  Grandmother, Uncle Algae (pretty
sure that's not his name), Death
Eaters...

Which makes me wonder, if, by chance,
Neville's twin WAS turned into a
toad...why is he always running away?
Does he know the secret to Voldemort's
downfall?  The secret recipe for squid
Every Flavor Beans?  Where Snape keeps
the hallucinogenic potions?  Or does he
just not like Nev?

<Perhaps the toad carries the Mark of
Voldemort and will save the day
at the end of the books!>

Okay even I can't go with this one, it
just tops everything by itself.

<Why did we ever let this guy on the
list, anyway?>

Because we love him

<Is there anyone out there?>

Yup, though I'm caught between Middle
Earth and wondering why my cat is
stairing at my cigarette.

<Okay, Let's say the Toad leads the House
Elfs in the next great Elf
rebellion and ...>

In order for it to be the NEXT great Elf
rebellion...wouldn't there have had to be
a rebellion to start with?  Goblin
rebellions sure, but can't think of an
Elf rebellion.

<OK, I know when I'm not wanted.
Fine.>

Not true, you are wanted love...both of
you.

Anyway, if you've still read this far,
nothing new in my life beyond the fact
that the state of Oregon sucks and won't
pay for my medication (I have bi-polar
for those of you who don't know), Which
means I have no meds, which means I'm
stuck between endless cycles of
depression and bouncing off the walls
with glee for no reason type emotions.
Thus my pretty much non communication.  I
have no wish to inflict my moods on
others.  Bad enough I gotta suffer
through them.

Anyway, *hugs* to all.

Saitaina
****
"Sorry Vig...just seems like I'm about to
come out of a closet I didn't even know I
was in."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on
all this and plow face-first into a tree
because I was looking the wrong bloody
way. And I'll still be having a better
day than I am today."




From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 02:28:09 2003
From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:28:09 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Is He Dead Jim? (very OT)
References: <bj0m3k+3dfo@...>
Message-ID: <002d01c370f9$de012350$0302a8c0@athena>

Hi Y'all -- Just checking in.  I've been busy preparing some HP-related
lessons for my 5th & 6th grade Sunday Schoolers.  The first class will be on
International Book covers.  I've collected bunches of international book
covers from the Web and have printed them out as 2x3" (5x7.5cm) cards.  The
object of the exercise will be to find the country corresponding to each
card on a world map.  The religious message will be "why can't we all just
get along (since everyone likes Harry Potter)?"

While they're busy finding the countries on the map, I'll talk about the
languages and alphabets, and tell which countries are having serious
political conflicts with one another (China & Taiwan, Iran & USA, etc.).
Here's a sample of  my spiel:

The Serbian books have been issued in two different alphabets - Latin and
Cyrillic.

The Philosopher's Stone has been translated into Latin, Faroe and Welsh.
(But not Esperanto or Klingon, as far as I know.)

The ugliest cover is undoubtedly the original Icelandic PS; the most unusual
are the Japanese covers.

Spain has editions in four different languages -- Castilian, Catalan,
Galician, and Basque.  The Castilian translation is also used in Latin
America despite dialectical differences.  On the other hand, Portugal and
Brazil use different translations, as do mainland China and Taiwan.  The US
and UK editions are very similar except for minor differences in spelling,
punctuation, and grammar.

The Russian "ripoff,"  Tanya Grotter, has sold over a million copies.

The following different alphabets (character sets) are represented in the
collection of covers:
Latin (English, French, German, etc.)
Modified Latin (Turkish, Vietnamese, etc.)
Hebrew
Greek
Cyrillic (Russian, Ukrane, Serbian, etc.)
Thai
Chinese (traditional and simplified)
Japanese
Korean
Arabic (Urdu, Farsi)

-Jim
Very much alive.

>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <estesrandy at y...> wrote:
> > Has anyone noticed that 3 people account for over half of the
> > messages posted on this list in August?
> >
> > Did everyone else dissapparate?
> >
> > Perhaps we should pick a topic that someone would like to discuss?
> >
> > Politics?
> > Music?
> > Other authors?
> >
> > That jerk that keeps bothering me?
> > That nice person I want to get to know?
> >
> > Why does JKR have to kill off a great character and piss off half
> of
> > her fans?
> > What I did on my summer vacation?
> >
> > Who would I like to turn into a toad?
> > Why does Neville have a toad?
> > Is the toad an important character like Scabbers?
> > Perhaps the toad is Voldemort's twin brother separated at Birth?
> >
> > What brother?  You know the nicer looking one in the baby picture!
> > Perhaps the toad is chewing all of that gum and leaving the
> wrappers!
> > Perhaps Neville's twin brother was turned into the toad!
> > Perhaps the toad carries the Mark of Voldemort and will save the
> day
> > at the end of the books!
> >
> > Why did we ever let this guy on the list, anyway?
> >
> > Is there anyone out there?
> >
> > OKAY
> > Let's say Harry,Ron, and Hermione walk into a bar....
> > What do they say?
> > "Ouch!"
> > Because it hurts when you walk into a bar! (and bonk your head or
> > something on the bar!)
> >
> > Okay, Let's say the Toad leads the House Elfs in the next great Elf
> > rebellion and ...
> > Hey!  Enough about the toad already!!!!
> > Well, I was just trying to start some discussion....
> > Well, this kind of inane drivel is what drove all these people away
> > in the first place!
> > OK, I know when I'm not wanted.
> > Fine.
> > POOF!  Both of them dissapparate.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 05:30:25 2003
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:30:25 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is He Dead Jim?
In-Reply-To: <bim5t9+i1qt@...>
Message-ID: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGKEGICMAA.neilward@...>

Lord Randemort jumped off his stool and said:

<< Has anyone noticed that 3 people account for over half of the messages
posted on this list in August? >>

Since I set up this list in a flurry of owls, it may seem odd that I fell
into the depths of lurkdom so soon after my first reading of Order of the
Phoenix.  The truth of the matter is that I was rather underwhelmed by the
book and haven't managed (or wanted) to get my teeth into a second reading.
I decided to put off posting any OoP thoughts until I'd read the book again.
Catherine assures me that it's much better on second reading, so I'm looking
forward to it now.

Generally, I've been insanely busy at work and I'm currently entering a
period of even more intense activity that won't ease up until mid-October,
so I'm likely to stay pretty quiet here for a while longer.  Just about the
only place I'm posting anything is on LiveJournal, but even that it is
sporadic and OT.  I guess it doesn't help that I'm no longer involved with
HPfGU admin in any shape (especially car-shaped), as that reduces my
exposure to Harry Potter to the occasional skim of the HPfGU lists and The
Leaky Cauldron.

In other news, HPfGU-London had a meet not so long ago in honour of Pippin's
visit to the UK.  It was fun meeting up with Pippin and seeing Catherine,
Michelle, Ali, Pip and David again.  I also met Eloise (Elizabeth) for the
first time and she didn't look at all as I'd pictured her.  We did discuss
HP and I felt decidedly rusty on canon details. I left even more determined
to re-read OoP; fired up by the enthusiasm of others.

I recruited a new member of staff about a week ago who, according to one of
my colleagues, looks rather like Harry Potter.  I should add that she is a
grown woman in her mid-30s who plays rugby, but aside from that, there is a
passing resemblance to the delicate boy wizard.  Come to think of it, one of
the other candidates was very like Rita Skeeter (and she was a freelance
journalist and was wearing red lipstick and looked evil) and another one had
long red hair and a faraway look in her eyes!  Omigod!!!  Was that life
imitating art?  Okay, perhaps not.

It may be as quiet as a graveyard in here now, but I'm sure we'll get some
discussions going before too long.  Let's face it, we probably have years
stretching ahead of us before Book Six surfaces - why rush?  I'm on a Diana
Wynne-Jones list that moves along in fits and starts, sometimes falling to
total silence for weeks and other times giving the HPfGU main list a run for
its money on posting volume.  All it takes is one juicy thread to take
things from 'country lane' to 'traffic jam'.  That list is also not afraid
to mingle DWJ discussions with OT threads, although the list owner tries to
enforce a 'obDWJ' in all OT posts - an 'obligatory Diana Wynne Jones'
reference, however obscure or tenuous.  Perhaps we should try that here if
things kick off?

Neil

Rusting Ford Anglia





From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 10:49:32 2003
From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (heidi tandy)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 03:49:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is He Dead Jim?
In-Reply-To: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGKEGICMAA.neilward@...>
Message-ID: <20030902104932.20854.qmail@...>


--- Neil Ward <neilward at ...> wrote:

>  The truth of the matter is that I was
> rather underwhelmed by the
> book and haven't managed (or wanted) to get my teeth
> into a second reading.
> I decided to put off posting any OoP thoughts until
> I'd read the book again.
> Catherine assures me that it's much better on second
> reading, so I'm looking
> forward to it now.

I've actually decided not to reread it - I'm listening
to the Jim Dale tapes instead - and I'm finding myself
enjoying it. I have to say, I think one of the reasons
I didn't love it as much as I thought was because I
was so bloody tired while reading it. Jon was barely 3
weeks old, and I realise now that while I thought I
felt fine, I had definitely not recovered and I really
missed a LOT while I was reading. All of chapter 15,
for example. 

But listening to the tapes is forcing me to go through
the story more slowly than I would, were I reading.
And I'm making all sorts of nifty connections and
theories, including my Cool Thestral Theory, which I
posted about on FA last week - basically, I think we
now know how Hagrid got to the Hut on the Rock...


heidi




From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 13:36:44 2003
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:36:44 -0500
Subject: Is He Dead Jim?
References: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGKEGICMAA.neilward@...>
Message-ID: <020401c37157$4111b9c0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

Hi --

I'm very much alive too!  Truth be told, I've been taking a bit of a break from HP and the fandom for the last several weeks.  Well, that's not entirely true.  I dipped my toes into the "Deathmarch" shipping thread on FA for a few weeks and well ......decided it just wasn't the place for me.  I think I was burned out from all the HPfGU modding duties and then Nimbus really and most truly burned me out.  So, I've needed a break and frankly I haven't missed the email volume.  It's really kind of novel to not have 93 messages download everytime you sign onto the computer.  <g>  

I suspect I will want to eventually follow HPfGU again, though I'm not sure if I'll go back to individual emails or not.  And, I really love interacting with all of you guys, so I would truly love it if we got some good discussions going in this forum.  It would suit my present state of mind.  But, like some of you said, there's really no big rush.  I suspect it will be another 3 year gap before the next book, so I'd imagine we've got plenty of time to kick around theories.  

On OoP: I loved it.  I loved it the first time around, and I agree with Heidi that Jim Dale forces you to go back through it more carefully though.  I've listened to the audio one full time (and must return my CDs for a new set because they've started skipping on repeat play, though Bryce listened to them one time too) and I've read the book 3 times now.  My third reading was a very careful reading of Trio interactions ......er........for a shipping-related essay that I wrote.  Speaking of which, I suppose I could post it here, though I'm not sure if it will kick off anymore discussion here than it did over on the Deathmarch.  It's quite long.  If I don't hear a chorus of groans, I'll post it here later tonight.  :--)  Hey, it's the only in-depth OOP canon analysis I've done so far!

Penny
(who thinks that Heidi's thestral theory relating to Hagrid and the Hut is very cool indeed...........)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 14:55:06 2003
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:55:06 -0000
Subject: Hagrid "Flying" to the Rock (WAS: Is He Dead Jim?)
In-Reply-To: <20030902104932.20854.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <bj2b0a+jno8@...>

Heidi wrote:

> And I'm making all sorts of nifty connections and
> theories, including my Cool Thestral Theory, which I
> posted about on FA last week - basically, I think we
> now know how Hagrid got to the Hut on the Rock...

I agree completely, and I wrote a filk a couple of weeks ago which 
includes this theory!  Here it is (check out the last verse):

FILK:  It's a Real Flint
Based on "It's a Small World" by Richard M. Sherman and Robert B. 
Sherman 
Hear the original here:  
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/smworld.htm


It's a world of laughter 
A world of tears 
It's a world of hopes 
And a world of fears 
There's so much that we share 
That it's time we're aware 
What's a real Flint after all 

There is Marcus Flint
Who was in Book Three 
Book Two was the last
Time we should have seen
Though Jo tried to explain 
He did a year again
It's a real Flint after all 

It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real, true Flint

Harry sees his Mum
And Diggory die
But he doesn't see
Thestrals when they fly
Though Jo tried to explain
He had to feel the pain
It's a real Flint after all 

It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real, true Flint

Ronald's prefect badge
Is scarlet and gold
But Percy's was silver
As Book One told
Since Harry's mind retains
Both pins looking the same
It's a real Flint after all 

It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real Flint after all 
It's a real, true Flint

When Hagrid told us
He flew to the rock
We said "A Flint!"
"A wizard he is not!"
But now there are thestrals
Who come to the rescue
It's a false Flint after all 

It's a false Flint after all 
It's a false Flint after all 
It's a false Flint after all 
It's a false, non-Flint

~Phyllis




From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 17:40:30 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is He Dead Jim?
In-Reply-To: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGKEGICMAA.neilward@...>
Message-ID: <20030902174030.81300.qmail@...>

HI ALL,

I'm just glad to hear from everyone out there.  It was
starting to feel like walking around an empty room
with lots of echos in this group!

I figured I needed to rattle the bushes a little to
deGnome the garden!  

However, Only one of you has had the guts to comment
on my latest theory on the importance of Neville's
toad to the ending of the HP series!

I am beginning to think that Neville's grandma may not
be the nice old lady we think she is.  Perhaps she is
holding Neville in check on the orders of Lord
Voldemort just in case he is the one in the prophecy. 
Maybe Mom is trying to communicate to Neville with gum
wrappers to tell him that granny is really a bad guy!

The toad is the key I tell you.  Perhaps he is
Neville's long lost brother! BWAHAHAHAAAHHAAA 

He laughs maniacally and trips off the stage into the
orchestra pit.

RED EYE RANDY (AKA Lord Randemort)

--- Neil Ward <neilward at ...> wrote:
> Lord Randemort jumped off his stool and said:
> 
> << Has anyone noticed that 3 people account for over
> half of the messages
> posted on this list in August? >>
> 
> Since I set up this list in a flurry of owls, it may
> seem odd that I fell
> into the depths of lurkdom so soon after my first
> reading of Order of the
> Phoenix.  The truth of the matter is that I was
> rather underwhelmed by the
> book and haven't managed (or wanted) to get my teeth
> into a second reading.
> I decided to put off posting any OoP thoughts until
> I'd read the book again.
> Catherine assures me that it's much better on second
> reading, so I'm looking
> forward to it now.
> 
> Generally, I've been insanely busy at work and I'm
> currently entering a
> period of even more intense activity that won't ease
> up until mid-October,
> so I'm likely to stay pretty quiet here for a while
> longer.  Just about the
> only place I'm posting anything is on LiveJournal,
> but even that it is
> sporadic and OT.  I guess it doesn't help that I'm
> no longer involved with
> HPfGU admin in any shape (especially car-shaped), as
> that reduces my
> exposure to Harry Potter to the occasional skim of
> the HPfGU lists and The
> Leaky Cauldron.
> 
> In other news, HPfGU-London had a meet not so long
> ago in honour of Pippin's
> visit to the UK.  It was fun meeting up with Pippin
> and seeing Catherine,
> Michelle, Ali, Pip and David again.  I also met
> Eloise (Elizabeth) for the
> first time and she didn't look at all as I'd
> pictured her.  We did discuss
> HP and I felt decidedly rusty on canon details. I
> left even more determined
> to re-read OoP; fired up by the enthusiasm of
> others.
> 
> I recruited a new member of staff about a week ago
> who, according to one of
> my colleagues, looks rather like Harry Potter.  I
> should add that she is a
> grown woman in her mid-30s who plays rugby, but
> aside from that, there is a
> passing resemblance to the delicate boy wizard. 
> Come to think of it, one of
> the other candidates was very like Rita Skeeter (and
> she was a freelance
> journalist and was wearing red lipstick and looked
> evil) and another one had
> long red hair and a faraway look in her eyes! 
> Omigod!!!  Was that life
> imitating art?  Okay, perhaps not.
> 
> It may be as quiet as a graveyard in here now, but
> I'm sure we'll get some
> discussions going before too long.  Let's face it,
> we probably have years
> stretching ahead of us before Book Six surfaces -
> why rush?  I'm on a Diana
> Wynne-Jones list that moves along in fits and
> starts, sometimes falling to
> total silence for weeks and other times giving the
> HPfGU main list a run for
> its money on posting volume.  All it takes is one
> juicy thread to take
> things from 'country lane' to 'traffic jam'.  That
> list is also not afraid
> to mingle DWJ discussions with OT threads, although
> the list owner tries to
> enforce a 'obDWJ' in all OT posts - an 'obligatory
> Diana Wynne Jones'
> reference, however obscure or tenuous.  Perhaps we
> should try that here if
> things kick off?
> 
> Neil
> 
> Rusting Ford Anglia
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 17:48:08 2003
From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:48:08 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is He Dead Jim?
References: <20030902174030.81300.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <014501c3717a$5fe68ec0$0e3c1c40@...>

Randy wrote:

<I am beginning to think that Neville's
grandma may not
be the nice old lady we think she is.
Perhaps she is
holding Neville in check on the orders of
Lord
Voldemort just in case he is the one in
the prophecy.
Maybe Mom is trying to communicate to
Neville with gum
wrappers to tell him that granny is
really a bad guy!>

I for one never thought Grandma was a
nice old ladie (stern yes, nice no) but I
don't see her as a Voldie supporter.
Maybe instead of Trevor being Neville's
long lost brother, he's a DE in disguise
thus keeping Neville in check?

Saitaina
****
"Sorry Vig...just seems like I'm about to
come out of a closet I didn't even know I
was in."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on
all this and plow face-first into a tree
because I was looking the wrong bloody
way. And I'll still be having a better
day than I am today."




From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 22:16:16 2003
From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (Jeralyn)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:16:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is He Dead Jim?
Message-ID: <6356880.1062540955963.JavaMail.nobody@...>

Ah, I know that I have been terribly remiss.  I have, however, been reading the posts, and always feel like anything I say would be along the lines of, "Um yeah, what he said.  It's...uh...cool..."

I've also been wanting to re-read OOP and then maybe post something interesting, but hubby-Bart has been reading it at a snaaaaaiiiiilllll's pace.

So, yeah, I'm still out here.  Come visit!  The weather is wonderful and we can all hang out on the beach.



From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  2 22:43:33 2003
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:43:33 -0000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is He Dead Jim?
In-Reply-To: <6356880.1062540955963.JavaMail.nobody@...>
Message-ID: <bj36el+bh4p@...>

Hi All, 

I'm still here too.  I've been lax in posting, I know, but I broke my 
finger a little over a month ago, & it was hard as heck to type using 
only nine fingers.  

I've also been having problems getting into the second reading of 
OotP.  Like Neil, I was underwhelmed, and since I've discovered 
Tamora Pierce (who, IMHO, writes circles around JKR), I've been 
devouring her books.  

I *did*, however, find what I think is another Flint:  (p. 147, 
British Ed.) [The trio is discussing the DADA teachers]  ' One 
sacked, one dead, one's memory removed, and one locked in a trunk for 
nine months,' said Harry, counting them off on his fingers.

Remus resigned, thanks to Severus' outing him as a werewolf--he 
wasn't sacked.  

Maybe Jo should go back & re-read her own books? <eg>

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker (off to wash the dog--oh, joy)  




From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep  3 02:43:47 2003
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:43:47 -0500
Subject: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
Message-ID: <035e01c371c5$35719cc0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

Hi --

Not having heard a chorus of groans, I'm posting this so it can't be said I
didn't make any substantive contributions to discussion.  <g>  I've retained
the old HPfGU SHIP prefix to give fair notice as well.........so consider
yourself duly warned.

Again, this was written for a specific forum so some of the points made are
specifically included to refute threads or arguments on the DeathMarch
Thread.

Penny

*********************

All OoP page references refer to the UK hardback edition of OoP.  Page
references to GoF refer to the UK paperback edition.



INTRODUCTION



I believe that OoP sets in motion a trend that had begun developing in PoA
and GoF: the trend of Harry and Hermione becoming partners.  They are in
effect equals in leadership roles, and though Harry certainly remains the
"hero," I think that Hermione is increasingly filling the role of "heroine."
I think this partnership is a solid basis on which a romantic relationship
can be based in later books and/or in the epilogue to the series.



TREND OF BECOMING PARTNERS



  1.. Working in Tandem
Harry and Hermione work more as a partnership (and less as two members of a
Trio) in OoP than they have previously.  When they are reading the Prophet
article about Sirius, they shush Ron and continue to have their own
conversation (257).  Harry and Hermione obviously hadn't clued Ron in on the
conversation they had the night he made the Quidditch team regarding
Umbridge and Harry's scar, since Ron is utterly bewildered by this when the
three of them are talking to Sirius in the fire (270).



Hermione takes the initiative with forming the DA, anticipating and
countering Harry's reluctance with powers of persuasion and calm certitude
in his abilities (290-96).  The two of them have a conversation about the
similarity between the gold coins given to the DA members and the Dark Mark,
another sign of a growing shared outlook (353).   She also takes the
initiative with arranging Harry's interview with Rita Skeeter ("I want him
given the opportunity to tell the truth") (500).  She seemingly sat through
the interview with him.  Harry himself indicates that talking about the
events of that night in such detail was difficult, and therefore, Hermione
may be privy to details or emotions from Harry that he hadn't previously
confided to both her and Ron (502).



Significantly, Harry and Hermione share in the key moments of the events
depicted in OoP as a pair.  It is Harry and Hermione together who accompany
Hagrid to the Forest to meet Grawp (604-618).  It is Harry and Hermione
together who steal into Umbridge's office to check on Sirius' whereabouts
(651-653).  It is Harry and Hermione together who accompany Umbridge into
the Forest (660).



And, finally, Hermione is with Harry and Neville (both of whom may be
integral to the final resolution of the series) when the group is split in
two at the Department of Mysteries.  Though she ultimately falls in battle
so to speak, she doesn't exit the scene immediately and gets in her fair
share of hexes and curses before being taken out of action.  In fact, they
play off each other in turn, saving each other repeatedly: Hermione saves
Harry with the "stupefy" hex (694); Harry launches himself across the floor
to interrupt the Avada Kevadra curse from hitting Hermione (696); Hermione
comes to Harry's aid once again (696-97); and then the two of them work
together with Silencio and Petrificus Totalus (698) before Hermione falls
out of action at last.



These are all choices made deliberately by Rowling; in each case, Ron
*could* have been included in the general scene without disruption of the
plot or narrative.  Instead, Rowling has chosen to keep Ron on the sidelines
during integral events in OoP, while pushing Harry and Hermione front and
center.  This trend of highlighting Harry and Hermione as a team or
partnership began in PoA, when it is Harry and Hermione as a pair who must
save Buckbeak and rescue Sirius.  This trend is solidified in GoF by having
Harry and Ron not speaking to one another for an extended period of time, so
that Harry and Hermione work together to get him through the First Task.
Though Ron certainly helped Harry in his preparation for the Third Task,
Hermione's contributions are possibly more note-worthy in some respects (the
very fact that he knew the curses and hexes that helped save his life that
night is attributable to Hermione's sleuthing and research skills).  And, of
course, again, OoP places Harry and Hermione together, working in tandem, at
all the key moments in the plot.  Their partnership is in the spotlight.



  2.. Daring Gryffindor Spirit
 Hermione moves from still wincing at the sound of the name Voldemort early
on (65) to using the name Voldemort frequently, starting in October when she
first proposes Harry teaching DADA to other students (294).  "It was the
first time she had ever said Voldemort's name, and it was *this*, more than
anything else, that calmed Harry" (293).  She is the only peer of Harry who
dares to say the name, and this sets her and Harry apart from the others.
Early on in OoP, Harry asks Ron when he's going to "say the name Voldemort."
Ron evades the question and never does use the name in OoP.   Hermione is
absolutely scathing in her disdain for Ron's reactions to hearing her or
Harry speak the name (296, 297, 519).



  3.. Ability to Communicate without Words
In OoP, Harry and Hermione communicate without words, and in both cases, the
situation is lost on Ron, who is oblivious, and the details are not shared
with him until much later.  Hermione is the only one to notice that
something is wrong with Harry at dinner one night (144); she is obviously
very attuned to his facial expressions and emotions.  On the train ride to
school, Harry realizes that Hermione has taken the same meaning from Draco's
"dogging" comment that he did (176).  Hermione again displays perceptiveness
with respect to Harry's emotional state, though she guesses the wrong cause
(575).  Harry catches on quickly to her ruse with Umbridge (the lack of
tears) (659).



I'm now shifting away from authorial intent to an examination of the
character's feelings for each other.





FOUNDATION FOR A ROMANCE



As discussed above, Harry and Hermione have become more and more of a
partnership of equals, with Hermione arguably filling the role of heroine.
Does this mean that they are destined to become romantic partners?  Does the
Hero always "get the girl"?  I don't know that they are so much *destined*
to be romantic partners, but I surely think that the foundation for that to
develop at some point is in place by the end of OoP.  Harry and Hermione
have a solid friendship, built on trust, respect and shared history, and
this could easily provide a good foundation for a romantic relationship.  In
addition, they aren't so "boring" that they never have any disagreements,
but, as shown in detail below, they have demonstrated that they most often
use positive conflict resolution rather than retreating into silence with
one another.  They exhibit an above-average concern for each other's safety
and well-being in OoP.  Both of their respective love interests have been
jealous of their relationship and have inferred an underlying romantic
attachment between Harry and Hermione.  Harry finds Hermione attractive, and
they both show no discomfort with the increasing physical interaction
between them.  Although Harry has thus far shown no particular interest in
Hermione's love life, she arguably is not as keen on Harry pairing up with
Cho as it might appear on the surface.  Certainly there is time enough for
both these adolescents to "change their minds" in any case.



  1..  Trust, Respect and History
 Trust



Harry and Hermione trust each other (just as they trust Ron of course), but
there are specific examples in OoP where the trust of these two characters
is put to the test.  Harry, though he is skeptical initially about what Cho
will say about this, agrees to meet Hermione while he's having a date with
Cho, even though Hermione doesn't give him a clue as to why she needs him to
meet her that specific day (489).  In another instance, Harry and Hermione
demonstrate that they will "be there to catch each other's falls" in that
classic example of falling backwards with utter trust in your partner
(though it is, in this case, unintentional, it is worth noting).  "He
[Hagrid] stopped suddenly and turned around; Hermione walked right into him
and was knocked over backward.  Harry caught her just before she hit the
forest floor" (607).



The most important scene to observe Harry and Hermione showing trust in one
another, however, is the scene when Harry tells Hermione and Ron about his
vision of Voldemort torturing Sirius.  The interaction between Harry and
Hermione fairly crackles with intensity in this scene (I could *see* it on
the movie screen almost); in fact, if there is [u]any[/u] unresolved sexual
tension indicators in the Potterverse, I would say it is here, in this
scene.  She grows more and more confident in questioning him, even in the
face of his anger, and they keep taking steps closer to each other.  Ron is
very definitely on the periphery of this pivotal scene.   Though Harry says
it "aggressively," he trusts her judgment enough to sanction one check at
Grimmauld Place (645-650).  It is Harry and Hermione who cloak themselves in
Harry's invisibility cloak and sneak into Umbridge's office; Ron is sent
offscreen.



                        Respect



Harry and Hermione respect each other's accomplishments.  Hermione's opinion
of Harry is very important to him; I suspect that his reaction of not
wanting to face or talk to Hermione after the Prefect Badge scene is
motivated by a sense of having let her down.  She obviously had a high
opinion of him, considered him the likely choice for the male Gryffindor
prefect of their year, and was disappointed that she wouldn't be a prefect
with him (148).   Hermione always listens thoughtfully when Harry confides
things in her (249).  In addition, Hermione has become Harry's conscience
("the part of his mind that *often spoke in Hermione's voice") (601).  He
changes his course entirely based on her voice in his head (343).  Harry
felt a "surge of pride in Hermione's jinxing abilities" at a critical point
in the confrontation among Umbridge, Fudge and Dumbledore (541).   He also
defends Hermione's jinxing abilities in an argument with Cho, which
immediately sparks a jealous reaction from Cho (561).



She anticipates Harry's reactions at the first DA meeting at the Hog's Head
Pub; soothing his anxiety and paving the way for him to comfortably assume
the position of leadership (302).  She bolsters his confidence with her
praise at the first official DA session (351).  When Harry is disconsolate
and isolated after overhearing Moody speculating that Voldemort might be
possessing him, it is Hermione who is able to persuade Harry to talk things
out.  She claims to have come to Grimmauld Place the minute she was
permitted (and didn't join her parents at all), rushing upstairs to the room
where Harry was holed up within minutes of her arrival (there is still snow
in her hair!) (440).  Further, Harry notes that he is "surprised" to see Ron
and Ginny sitting on his bed, so he obviously expected to have (and was
amenable to having) a conversation about the situation with *just* Hermione
on her own (441).    He doesn't "have the heart" to disappoint her by
telling her what is really happening to all the hats she's been making for
the elves (399).



                  Rich History



Harry and Hermione have a rich history, and though that history is shared
with Ron, select memories Harry has of Hermione specifically are highlighted
to the reader in OoP.  We learn, for example, that the image of Hermione in
the hospital wing when the polyjuice potion had gone awry is one of Harry's
"most feared memories."  And, thinking about Hermione can bring a smile to
Harry's face.  In his first OWL exam, Harry spies Hermione a few rows ahead
of him and fondly recalls the night in which he and Hermione became friends,
the night he and Ron knocked out the Troll to save her (628).  Accordingly,
I believe that any romantic partner of Harry will have a difficult time
"replacing" Hermione in his heart.



  2.. Conflict Resolution
Harry and Hermione are not "boring."  They do argue or disagree sometimes,
but in almost every case, the disagreement is completely resolved by
discussing the matter and apologizing as necessary.  This is in contrast to
Ron and Hermione, whose arguments in OoP are *never* resolved on-screen; one
or both parties *always* retreats into silence and/or avoids the other
(72-73, 189-90, 208, 212, 228-230, 231, 264).  There is one instance of Ron
and Hermione "resolving" an argument off-page; the time when Harry blows up
at them for always "having a go at each other" and storms off.  In that
instance, Ron shows up for Divination a bit later and pronounces that "me
and Hermione have stopped arguing" (213).  But, we don't *see* that the
argument is actually resolved (it may have just been a temporary truce), and
it certainly doesn't stop them from arguing with each other after that
point.



There are instances in which Harry is angry enough with Hermione to retreat
into silence for a period of time, but this is not a pattern of behavior.
In one case, Harry is angry enough with her for siding at least partially
with McGonagall to not speak to her during Charms but forgets about being
cross with her by the time they reach the next class (285-86).  He also is
angry enough with her to stop speaking to her for the rest of the day when
she pushed him on Occlumency again (519).



It is only rarely though that Harry retreats into silence rather than
resolving his conflicts with Hermione.  Harry essentially picks a fight with
her over the issue of Lavender not believing him, and after Hermione calmly
tells him that she told Lavender off but to please stop jumping down her
throat, he apologizes (201).  In a similar discussion shortly later,
Hermione again is assertive and tells Harry to "stop biting her head off"
(227).   Though she may look anxious about it, her anxiety never stops
Hermione from facing Harry's anger at different times in the course of OoP
(293, 645-50, 686-87).  And, she grows steadily more confident (and less
anxious) about confronting Harry when she believes it's necessary.



She isn't afraid to tell him when he's behaving poorly, and he likewise
feels comfortable enough to tell her when she's out of order.  For example,
after they've met Grawp for the first time, Harry tries to calm Hermione,
who was very distraught at what Hagrid was asking them to do.  When Hermione
in turn became angry, to the point of saying that Umbridge was right to
question Hagrid's competency, Harry says quietly, "you didn't mean that."
She agrees that Harry is right (617).  As another example, Harry quietly
asks if she *does* wish that she could see Thestrals; she is immediately
horrified by what she's said and apologizes for her insensitivity (398).



Harry is definitely annoyed with Hermione at different times in OoP, but
some conflict is definitely a normal and good thing in any relationship.  In
some cases, it is her logical and pragmatic nature that irritates him (327,
334-35).  For example, when she questions whether continuing with the DA is
advisable in light of Sirius' support, Harry feels annoyed with her slur on
Sirius' judgment; however, he is thinking about her words later as he falls
asleep, so he certainly takes her advice to heart even when he disagrees
(334-335).  In every other case, his annoyance with her centers on her
tenacity on the occlumency issue (489, 519, 574, 600-601) or her opposition
to his plan to break into Umbridge's office to use her fire for his chat
with Sirius (579-80, 582, 587-88).



He affirmatively hides his feelings about one of his Voldemort dreams from
Ron and Hermione because "he didn't want another telling-off from Hermione"
(520).  However, there is certainly not, as has been alleged, a pattern of
behavior whereby Harry repeatedly lies to Hermione to avoid being nagged or
lectured.  In fact, in one case where Harry has actively lied to Hermione
(when he said he'd worked out the Egg clue in GoF) and in those cases where
he failed to mention a detail or tell the entire story, he avoids her eye or
doesn't look at her or otherwise has a guilty reaction.  In these cases,
Harry is also lying to Ron, though his guilt seems to be Hermione-driven.
One instance where Harry "lies by omission" in OoP to both Hermione and Ron
can be found at: 242-243 (he doesn't tell them the full story about his
detentions with Umbridge).  When she's pushing him on occlumency, she asks
him if he's stopped having funny dreams, and he answers "pretty much" but
doesn't meet her eye (574).  Harry tries to sound as though she's insulting
him by even asking if he's continuing to work on his occlumency, but he
doesn't quite meet her eye when he says this (601).



The overall pattern of how Harry and Hermione react to and resolve
interpersonal conflicts contrasts sharply with the Ron and Hermione pattern.
Harry doesn't like conflict as evidenced by his angry outburst at them and
subsequent thoughts about their incessant bickering (212) and by his
thoughts that he didn't care what happened between him and Cho as long as
there were no more rows (603).  I also don't believe that Hermione is
thriving on her conflicts with Ron either, but I'm not sure we have adequate
canon-based evidence to make that evaluation fully since we don't have
Hermione's perspective at all.



  3.. Concern for Each Other's Safety and Well-Being
While Harry and Hermione both obviously place a high value on the safety,
happiness and general well-being of their friends (Ron in particular), they
show an especial concern for one another in OoP.  Ron himself says that
Hermione was "going spare" with anxiety about what Harry might do, stuck
alone without news (61).  Though she professed to be confident that he would
not be expelled, she looked "positively faint with anxiety and held a
shaking hand over her eyes" when Harry tells them that he got off the
charges (143).



They stick up for each other with particular ferocity in OoP.  Hermione
reacts quite sharply indeed to Draco's query of how Harry felt being
"second-best" to Ron ("Shut up!" and "Get out!"): even Draco recognizes that
he may have "hit a nerve" with her (175-176).  Harry receives another
detention for questioning why Umbridge was docking Gryffindor for Hermione's
question (284).



As tensions increase in the narrative, so too do Hermione's anxieties.  She
tells Ron to go check on Harry after his first occlumency lesson (476-478).
She is very concerned by Harry's scar hurting (144, 249, 489, 644, 651).  As
the DA members run from the Room of Requirement, Hermione looks back from
the middle of the group, shouting at Harry to "come on!" (536).   She cannot
abide the thought of Harry suffering the Crucio curse, and I'm not entirely
convinced that she knew what she was going to do when she shouted "NO!" as
Umbridge prepared to cast the curse on Harry (658).  In other words, I think
Hermione reacted with fierce emotional protectiveness of Harry and *then*
formulated a plan as she went along.  She also was particularly apprehensive
about the veil and its dangers, as if by instinct (682-683).



If anything, Hermione may be overly anxious on Harry's behalf, which annoys
him from time to time, but I can't help wondering if it's important that
Hermione mistranslates the word for partnership as "defense" (631).



Finally, it should be noted that Hermione disengages herself from her
parents to join the group of Harry's protectors who confront the Dursleys on
the train platform (765).



    4.  Jealousy of Romantic Partners


Hermione's romantic partner in GoF (and possibly OoP), Viktor Krum, is
jealous enough of Harry's relationship with Hermione to instigate a private
conversation.  Harry is amazed that this older boy and international
Quidditch star considers him a rival.  Then, Harry's romantic interest in
OoP, Cho Chang, is jealous of Harry's relationship with Hermione (494-96,
561).  Even if friends don't see a possible romantic pairing in the offing
when they look at Harry and Hermione (though we don't know if they do or don
't), it is indisputably clear that the romantic interests of both Harry and
Hermione are jealous of the H/H friendship.  They find it threatening; they
suspect romantic interest between Harry and Hermione.



  5.. Physical Interaction
Harry does not find Hermione unattractive or ugly (GoF 359-60, OoP 505). In
fact, at the Yule Ball, his jaw dropped in astonishment at Hermione's
appearance (GoF 360). He had earlier considered this mysterious girl to be
"pretty," though he did not yet know that it was Hermione (GoF 359). And, of
course, he flat-out confirms that he does not find her "ugly" (505). The
purpose of her even making the statement that Harry should have told Cho he
thinks she, Hermione, is ugly: well, it sounds like she was fishing for
compliments or at least testing the waters. We do not know specifically what
Hermione might think about Harry's appearance or whether she is or could be
physically attracted to him. Of course, people don't fall in love with every
person they might believe is physically attractive, but since this seems to
be one barrier to H/H speculated on by R/H types in the past, I thought it
was worth including in this essay.



In any case though, Harry and Hermione show an increasing comfort level with
physical contact in OoP.  Hermione hugs him for a fairly sustained period of
time when he first arrives at Grimmauld Place (60-61).  They are shown as
seated next to one another at various points in OoP (212, 221, 323, 498,
505, 638).  This is interesting only in the sense that Rowling has
specifically highlighted the seating arrangement in some manner.  Hermione
grabs or clings to Harry's arm with a fair bit of frequency (323, 358, 614,
668, 679).  Harry is described as being very physically protective of her as
well.  He "seizes her and pulls her behind a tree" (614) when Grawp takes a
swipe at her.  In the clash between Umbridge and the centaurs, Harry grabs
Hermione and pulls her to the ground (665).  In the Department of Mysteries
when Harry needs to signal the others to smash the shelves, it is Hermione's
foot that he finds (692-93).  In the ensuing crash, Harry grabs Hermione's
robes and drags her forwards: this has all the elements of "save one thing
from a burning building" mentality on Harry's part (694).  When he thinks
Hermione may be dead, there is a "whine of panic" inside Harry's head (699).
Learning that she is still alive, Harry feels such a "powerful wave of
relief" that he feels light-headed for a moment (700).



6.  Interest in Each Other?



How do Harry and Hermione view each other's respective love lives?  Well,
clearly, Harry has spared no thought whatsoever on Hermione's love life so
far.  His only commentary on Krum sounds more like Rowling talking to the
reader through Harry, rather than something Harry himself would say (407).
He does certainly recognize Ron's interest in Hermione (GoF 376), though he
and Ron rather interestingly don't seem to have any conversations about
girls.  Harry wishes at one point that he could ask Sirius' advice, but he
doesn't seek out his male best friend's opinion at all.  Of course, if they
did have a discussion about girls, Hermione would certainly come up, and it'
s arguable that Rowling is avoiding that entire scenario for the time being.



Hermione might seem on the surface to be supportive of the Harry/Cho
relationship; she even encourages him by mentioning that Cho couldn't take
her eyes off him at the Hog's Head Pub (311).  But, on closer examination,
it seems at least reasonable to be suspicious of why Hermione is so
interested in Harry's love life.  For a "disinterested observer," Hermione
watches Cho from afar frequently and does quite a lot of thinking about Cho'
s emotional state and interest in Harry.  Hermione interrupts his
conversation with Cho at the first DA meeting, by shouting to him to look at
his watch.  Obviously, she'd been watching Harry and Cho for at least a
moment; did she interrupt them on purpose? (351)



When Harry tells Ron and Hermione about his snog session with Cho, he does
so only as a result of Hermione's prompting.  For her part in this
conversation, Rowling used "business-like," "brisk" and "impatiently" to
describe Hermione's manner.  Those are odd descriptors to ascribe to an
indifferent observer if you ask me.  In addition, of course, Hermione is
seen to be wearing a "slight frown" while waiting for Harry to confirm that
he and Cho had kissed (404-406).  She is all too happy to tell Harry what he
's done wrong on his date with Cho after-the-fact.  But she doesn't
seemingly take the initiative to set Cho straight about her relationship
with Harry (or Cho wouldn't continue to be jealous), and we all know that
Hermione *can* be meddlesome when it suits her (Firebolt, anyone?).  She
questions Harry about Cho at different times (575, 602), and of course, it
is none other than Hermione who informs Harry that Cho is dating someone new
(762).  All in all, I'm not convinced that Hermione is as fully supportive
of the Harry/Cho relationship as she appeared to be on the surface.  This
leaves open the possibility that Hermione has or will develop romantic
feelings for Harry.   Even if she has romantic feelings for Ron (which I don
't believe she does, though the purpose of this essay is not to be
anti-R/H), this doesn't preclude her from also having romantic interest in
Harry or from developing those feelings later on.



In sum, I believe there is enough ambiguity in the relationships between all
three members of the Trio to leave open a definite possibility for Harry and
Hermione to develop a romantic interest in one another, even if it's not
currently overt for either of them.  They have the emotional bond already,
and they do find each other physically attractive (there's nothing to
suggest that Hermione *doesn't* find Harry physically attractive anyway).
It's definitely true that they might well find other parties *more*
appealing than each other (such as ..oh Ron for Hermione and Ginny for
Harry), but it seems to me that the odds on Harry/Hermione pairing off are
higher when one examines all the canon evidence as a whole.



CONCLUSION



I believe that OoP dramatically accelerates the trend begun in PoA and GoF
of Harry and Hermione working and acting as partners.  While it is Harry who
has the destiny to fulfill and the books are titled "Harry Potter and the
_____," I believe that Rowling intends us to view Hermione as more than just
a "side-kick," more than just a "secondary character."  I believe that Harry
and Hermione working in tandem as they increasingly do is a solid basis on
which a romantic relationship can be based in later books and/or in the
epilogue to the series.



While it can be argued that Harry will end up paired with Ginny as more and
more of her character is revealed to Harry and the reader, it is also firmly
within literary tradition for an author to create incentives for a certain
romantic outcome by making certain that the readers are emotionally invested
in the potential love interest.  In that case, Rowling has certainly
spotlighted Hermione, both in terms of her individual accomplishments and
strengths, and also as part of a dynamic partnership with Harry.  By
contrast, Ginny's development has been sparse and is largely off-page
(testimonials from her brothers and tidbits from Hermione), thereby creating
a situation where a large number of readers are not at this stage
emotionally invested in her as the hero's love interest.  Rowling used that
technique already to make sure that readers were not emotionally invested in
Cho as Harry's romantic partner.  She accomplished this by filtering Cho
entirely through Hermione: virtually everything the reader learns or hears
about Cho is related by Hermione.  The reader isn't given the chance to feel
any romantic rush when Harry kissed Cho, as that first kiss was off-page.
So, the reader doesn't ever feel any connection to Cho.  I believe she's
using this same technique with Ginny.  And, I believe that she has made
certain that readers are very emotionally invested in Hermione, though
naturally not all readers want her paired up with the hero.  :--)



Even if you don't buy into the notion that Hermione is the heroine of the
series, it is indisputable that Harry and Hermione working together has been
highlighted, particularly in the latest installment.  As was shown above, in
addition to being a formidable duo, Harry and Hermione have a friendship and
emotional relationship that could easily form the basis for romantic
interest.  I believe that they are both subconsciously aware of an
attraction for each other, though Harry certainly isn't overtly aware of any
latent feelings for Hermione.  Because Hermione's feelings are still
ambiguous, it is hard to say whether she might be aware of any interest in
Harry.  But whether or not they have any *current* romantic feelings about
one another, the stage is clearly set for that possible outcome.











From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep  3 20:35:00 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:35:00 -0000
Subject: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <035e01c371c5$35719cc0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bj5j9k+d8hs@...>

Captain Penny, valiantly struggling to keep her ship off the 
shoals, (are we allowed to CARP around here?) said:

> I believe that OoP sets in motion a trend that had begun 
developing in PoA and GoF: the trend of Harry and Hermione 
becoming partners.  They are in effect equals in leadership 
roles, and though Harry certainly remains the "hero," I think that 
Hermione is increasingly filling the role of "heroine."<

Followed by an extremely well-argued post, detailing the  
closeness of Harry and Hermione in eyestraining detail, to which 
I can only reply with   Harry's own argument (all together now) 
"Yeah, because we're *friends*" 

I will concede that Hermione takes the role of heroine in OOP. I 
will even concede that by literary convention, this entitles her to 
choose the hero of that book as her mate. Ah, but (you knew 
there was going to be a but) who *is* the hero of OOP?

Harry may be the narrative focus and the central character in 
OOP, but that doesn't make him a hero. His name is on the 
cover, but if that makes him a hero then Gilderoy Lockhart is one 
too. <g>

Harry didn't do one single thing to earn a hero's name in OOP. 
Oh, wait, he saved his stupid cousin Dudley from the 
Dementors. That was a brave and decent thing to do--except that 
Dudley wouldn't have been in any danger from  Dementors if 
Harry hadn't been with him, and Harry was only with him 
because he wanted to give Dudley a hard time. That rather 
tarnishes the accomplishment, IMO. Still, you have to give the 
boy credit for it, and I do, but that happens on page 19 (of the US 
edition.) For the subsequent 851 pages, Harry whines, sulks, 
blows up at  people who are trying to help him, ignores 
instructions, gets himself throw off the Quidditch team, leads his 
friends into danger unnecessarily and generally does everything 
*but* save the day. If this were Book One of the saga instead of 
Book Five, you'd be hard put to say Harry was a hero at all. 

So is there somebody else filling the hero's role in Phoenix? 
Someone who, following  an unexpected call to adventure, 
struggles against obstacles and triumphs against the odds? 
Someone who is crowned by success when it seems least 
expected? 

Pippin
exits humming "Weasley Is Our King"







From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep  3 21:27:50 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <bj5j9k+d8hs@...>
Message-ID: <20030903212750.3991.qmail@...>

Well obviously everyone has overlooked the possible
relationship between Harry and Neville's toad!

The toad never wished to stay with Neville.  He kept
running away perhaps looking  for a lasting
relationship with Harry.  

After all, Harry has a certain animal magnetism.  He
attracks, rats, basilisks, werewolves, hyppogryphs,
and wayward house elves.  How could the toad resist
Harry?

Of course the jealousy that Scabbers will feel once
the truth is out will be the denouement of the book
series relationship developments.  After all, Scabbers
would give his right arm for Harry.  He was also
infatuated with Harry's father.  Dobby might also
become jealous. Let's face it, Hermione doesn't stand
a chance against all of these suitors!


--- pippin_999 <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
> Captain Penny, valiantly struggling to keep her ship
> off the 
> shoals, (are we allowed to CARP around here?) said:
> 
> > I believe that OoP sets in motion a trend that had
> begun 
> developing in PoA and GoF: the trend of Harry and
> Hermione 
> becoming partners.  They are in effect equals in
> leadership 
> roles, and though Harry certainly remains the
> "hero," I think that 
> Hermione is increasingly filling the role of
> "heroine."<
> 
> Followed by an extremely well-argued post, detailing
> the  
> closeness of Harry and Hermione in eyestraining
> detail, to which 
> I can only reply with   Harry's own argument (all
> together now) 
> "Yeah, because we're *friends*" 
> 
> I will concede that Hermione takes the role of
> heroine in OOP. I 
> will even concede that by literary convention, this
> entitles her to 
> choose the hero of that book as her mate. Ah, but
> (you knew 
> there was going to be a but) who *is* the hero of
> OOP?
> 
> Harry may be the narrative focus and the central
> character in 
> OOP, but that doesn't make him a hero. His name is
> on the 
> cover, but if that makes him a hero then Gilderoy
> Lockhart is one 
> too. <g>
> 
> Harry didn't do one single thing to earn a hero's
> name in OOP. 
> Oh, wait, he saved his stupid cousin Dudley from the
> 
> Dementors. That was a brave and decent thing to
> do--except that 
> Dudley wouldn't have been in any danger from 
> Dementors if 
> Harry hadn't been with him, and Harry was only with
> him 
> because he wanted to give Dudley a hard time. That
> rather 
> tarnishes the accomplishment, IMO. Still, you have
> to give the 
> boy credit for it, and I do, but that happens on
> page 19 (of the US 
> edition.) For the subsequent 851 pages, Harry
> whines, sulks, 
> blows up at  people who are trying to help him,
> ignores 
> instructions, gets himself throw off the Quidditch
> team, leads his 
> friends into danger unnecessarily and generally does
> everything 
> *but* save the day. If this were Book One of the
> saga instead of 
> Book Five, you'd be hard put to say Harry was a hero
> at all. 
> 
> So is there somebody else filling the hero's role in
> Phoenix? 
> Someone who, following  an unexpected call to
> adventure, 
> struggles against obstacles and triumphs against the
> odds? 
> Someone who is crowned by success when it seems
> least 
> expected? 
> 
> Pippin
> exits humming "Weasley Is Our King"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep  3 23:13:38 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 23:13:38 -0000
Subject: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <20030903212750.3991.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <bj5sj2+7gt7@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes <estesrandy at y...> 
wrote:
> Well obviously everyone has overlooked the possible
> relationship between Harry and Neville's toad!

Now, now.  Trevor's spoken for.  (No one else is shipping 
Trevor/Giant Squid?  No one?)

> The toad never wished to stay with Neville.  He kept
> running away perhaps looking  for a lasting
> relationship with Harry.  
> 
> After all, Harry has a certain animal magnetism.  He
> attracks, rats, basilisks, werewolves, hyppogryphs,
> and wayward house elves.  How could the toad resist
> Harry?

Along these lines, where, O Simon, is the detailed explanation of 
why Harry/Hedwig is the One True Ship? <g>

--Barb, shipping Ron/Luna since 6/22/2003

 




From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 00:47:34 2003
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:47:34 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <20030903212750.3991.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGMEGPCMAA.neilward@...>

Randy:

<< Well obviously everyone has overlooked the possible relationship between
Harry and Neville's toad! >>

Surely it's obvious that Neville's toad is the unregistered animagus form of
Dolores Umbridge?

In Book 7, I suggest that Dumbledore will sit Harry on his knee and tell him
that the only way he can avoid the fate of the prophecy is to marry into
toad blood before his 18th birthday.  Harry becomes Dolores' toyboy, she is
redeemed and the series ends with a wizard wedding.  Official acronym for
this theory: UGH! (Umbridge Gets Harry)

Seriously, has Neville's toad ever been named?

Neil





From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep  3 23:30:26 2003
From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:30:26 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Essay on H/H in light of OoP (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
References: <035e01c371c5$35719cc0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <000f01c37273$5b725190$0302a8c0@athena>

Hrumpf.  All I have to say is this (p 761 British Ed):

'Are you sure you don't want me to help you look for your stuff?' he said.

'Oh, no,' said Luna.  'No, I think I'll just go down and have some pudding
and wait for it all to turn up ... it always does in the end ... well, have
a nice holiday, Harry.'

'Yeah ... yeah, you too.'

She walked away from him and, as he watched her go, he found that the weight
in his stomach seemed to have lessened slightly.

All Aboard for the Good Ship Harry/Luna!

-Jim




From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 02:19:44 2003
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:19:44 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
References: <bj5j9k+d8hs@...>
Message-ID: <049a01c3728b$0237ae50$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

Hi --

Well, there was such a long silence earlier today that I was a mite afraid, but lo and behold, several people appeared to have at least skimmed my verbose treatise.  Cool!  

Pippin (who I met at Nimbus, hurrah!) said:

<<<<<Captain Penny, valiantly struggling to keep her ship off the 
shoals, (are we allowed to CARP around here?) said:>>>>>>>

Oh, I've no objections to CARPing, though I must say, my ship is nowhere near the shoals.  <g>

<<<<<Followed by an extremely well-argued post, detailing the  
closeness of Harry and Hermione in eyestraining detail, to which 
I can only reply with   Harry's own argument (all together now) 
"Yeah, because we're *friends*">>>>>>>>>

Um, yes, and where have we heard that before?  It's a fairly solid convention in the arts in general (literature, movies, TV, etc.) to have the lovers declaring each other "just friends" .... is it not?  In any case, whatever Harry may currently *think,* narratively speaking, Rowling has laid the foundation for him to easily move into romance with Hermione.   

<<<<<<<I will concede that Hermione takes the role of heroine in OOP. I 
will even concede that by literary convention, this entitles her to 
choose the hero of that book as her mate. Ah, but (you knew 
there was going to be a but) who *is* the hero of OOP?

Harry may be the narrative focus and the central character in 
OOP, but that doesn't make him a hero.>>>>>>>>>>

Oh, but it *does* though!  At least according to my dictionary.  Hero is defined as a variety of things, including "(4) the principal male character in a novel, poem or dramatic presentation."  He also still fits the bill for "(2) any man noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his life."  

A whiny, self-centered, largely ineffective hero he was (in OOP), I'll concede....... but he is still the hero.  And, I'd also argue that you can't deny that Harry is indisputably the most likely person to be the Hero of the series (though Neville stands a greater-than-average chance of being the one to really vanquish Voldemort once and for all).  And, I think Hermione is being set up increasingly as the heroine ....... it's a trend that really jumped out at me in OOP but was set in place much earlier.

Also, I think you've shortchanged Harry somewhat too.  Yes, he doesn't "save the day," in the classic sense that he does in the first 3 novels (or save his own neck in a dramatic, heroic interlude as he does in GoF).  And, he spends a great deal of time indulging in self-pity and paranoia.  He makes a good many mistakes, one with tragic consequences.  But, he is also widely-heralded as a leader; he really comes into his own with the DA.  Again, it was Hermione's idea, but Harry really steps up to the plate and finds that there's something else besides Quidditch that he can enjoy and excel at.  And, of course, any Hero must be flawed, must make some mistakes on his ultimate quest.  I expect Harry will continue to make mistakes in Book 6 and even Book 7, but he'll remain the Hero.    

Ron?  Hey, I like Ron considerably more than I did after GoF.  But, the hero?  C'mon.  Nah.  Sorry, no can do.

Penny
(also happily shipping Ron/Luna since 6/22/2003.........)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 04:13:19 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:13:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGMEGPCMAA.neilward@...>
Message-ID: <20030904041319.86786.qmail@...>

Neil,

Neville's heroic toad is named Trevor!

I guess we can now launch the good ship NTT/H!

And a fine ship she is too!  What with rubbery water
repellent sails and all!

And my research of Book One shows me that "Neville,
the toadless boy" will grow up to be the rugged
individualist!  Unattached to others, he can lead a
lonely yet satifying life of a future hero who strives
to do great deeds like his hero, Trevor!

RED EYE RANDY wipes a tear from his eye and says
goodnight to all!

--- Neil Ward <neilward at ...> wrote:
> Randy:
> 
> << Well obviously everyone has overlooked the
> possible relationship between
> Harry and Neville's toad! >>
> 
> Surely it's obvious that Neville's toad is the
> unregistered animagus form of
> Dolores Umbridge?
> 
> In Book 7, I suggest that Dumbledore will sit Harry
> on his knee and tell him
> that the only way he can avoid the fate of the
> prophecy is to marry into
> toad blood before his 18th birthday.  Harry becomes
> Dolores' toyboy, she is
> redeemed and the series ends with a wizard wedding. 
> Official acronym for
> this theory: UGH! (Umbridge Gets Harry)
> 
> Seriously, has Neville's toad ever been named?
> 
> Neil
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 07:06:27 2003
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 08:06:27 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Trevor
In-Reply-To: <20030904041319.86786.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGMEHACMAA.neilward@...>

Randy reminded:

<< Neville's heroic toad is named Trevor! >>

Trevor.  Of course!  That blows my Umbridge theory out of the water.  Or
does it...?

Neil





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 16:41:43 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 16:41:43 -0000
Subject: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <049a01c3728b$0237ae50$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bj7q07+c1io@...>

I, Pippin, who did indeed meet Penny at Nimbus, and seconds 
her Hurray! said:
> <<<<<<<I will concede that Hermione takes the role of heroine 
in OOP. I 
> will even concede that by literary convention, this entitles her to 
> choose the hero of that book as her mate. Ah, but (you knew 
> there was going to be a but) who *is* the hero of OOP?
> 
> Harry may be the narrative focus and the central character in 
> OOP, but that doesn't make him a hero.>>>>>>>>>>

Penny replied:
> Oh, but it *does* though!  At least according to my dictionary.  
Hero is defined as a variety of things, including "(4) the principal 
male character in a novel, poem or dramatic presentation."  He 
also still fits the bill for "(2) any man noted for feats of courage
or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or 
sacrificed his life."  
> 
> A whiny, self-centered, largely ineffective hero he was (in OOP), 
I'll concede....... but he is still the hero.  And, I'd also argue
that you can't deny that Harry is indisputably the most likely 
person to be the Hero of the series (though Neville stands a 
greater-than-average chance of being the one to really vanquish 
Voldemort once and for all).  And, I think Hermione is being set 
up increasingly as the heroine ....... it's a trend that really
jumped out at me in OOP but was set in place much earlier.
> 

Oh well, if we're going to talk about the *series* then we have to 
ask who the heroine of the *series* is.  It's been a matter of 
some disappointment, especially to Hermione's  fans, that 
Rowling hasn't really done as much with Hermione's character 
as she could have. Hermione took  her position as Harry's friend 
about halfway through Book One, and there she has stayed, 
apart from occasional tiffs.Their friendship has deepened, but 
basically Harry and the reader see Hermione the same way in 
Book Five as she was in Book One: a staunch supporter, a 
clever ally, a bit of a nag, and a walking talking reference book. 

Harry's  relationship with Ginny is far more dynamic, including 
the  rescue in Book Two ( much more dramatic than the rescue 
of Hermione in Book Three) and his changing view of her 
character in OOP. 

Rowling has said that Luna is the anti-Hermione. Ginny, I would 
say, is becoming the anti-Cho: undivided in her loyalty to Harry, 
unshakably good-humored, and able to take Harry's moods in 
stride.

Also you'll note that Harry  left Hermione during the fight 
with the DE's. When she was unconscious and defenseless, it 
was Ron who stayed by her side, paralleling Book One where 
Hermione leaves Harry and goes back to tend the unconscious 
Ron.

Pippin




From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 17:02:13 2003
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 17:02:13 -0000
Subject: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <035e01c371c5$35719cc0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bj7r6l+jr1u@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

A very well-organised and researched essay.  

Thanks, Penny.  When I re-read OotP be sure I'll be paying close 
attention to the passages you've cited.  I missed a lot of this on my 
first rushed read of the book.  

I've missed your essays, btw.  Thanks for posting this one.  

Namaarie, 

Parker




From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 21:59:36 2003
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:59:36 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
References: <bj7q07+c1io@...>
Message-ID: <074101c3732f$d74b7690$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

Hi --

<<<<<Oh well, if we're going to talk about the *series* then we have to 
ask who the heroine of the *series* is.  It's been a matter of 
some disappointment, especially to Hermione's  fans, that 
Rowling hasn't really done as much with Hermione's character 
as she could have. Hermione took  her position as Harry's friend 
about halfway through Book One, and there she has stayed, 
apart from occasional tiffs.Their friendship has deepened, but 
basically Harry and the reader see Hermione the same way in 
Book Five as she was in Book One: a staunch supporter, a 
clever ally, a bit of a nag, and a walking talking reference book.>>>>>>>

Oh, Hermione has been anything but a disappointment to this huge Fan-of-Hermione!  No, no, no.  See, Hermione has been *increasing* in importance, both to Harry, to the Trio dynamic, and to the reader.  Granted, she enters the scene in Book 1 later than Ron does, but she quickly becomes integral to the story.  It's really Harry and Hermione who solve the basilisk riddle in CoS, even though Petrified!Hermione is not mentally present for the actual solution.  <G>  Ron doesn't contribute anything to that discussion, though he certainly gets lots of points for bravery for facing Aragog et al and being willing to go down the chamber with Harry.  In PoA, we see again that Ron is taken out of action and it's Harry and Hermione who save Buckbeak and Sirius (even Sirius, it must be noted, succumbs to the dementors, whilst Harry-the-Hero remains standing).  Hermione is incredibly important to the overall PoA story, and this H/H shipper and Hermione fan absolutely can't wait to see the movie version of PoA, which should in fact fix some fairly clear romantic cinematic imagery in the minds of the general public, looking at the shots they've already released in Newsweek.  <g> And, of course, we see Hermione becoming a stronger character in her own right in GoF with SPEW, the Yule Ball, etc.  Also, in GoF we see the continued strengthening of her relationship with Harry, and the continued shunting of Ron to the background.  So, I think it's a trend that has been in play since book 1: this increasing spotlight on Hermione and this increasing spotlight on Harry and Hermione as a partnership, a duo.  

I do think the series has some gender "issues," but Hermione's strong portrayal drastically undercuts other areas of weakness.  Minerva McGonagall is another reason I am not overly troubled by Rowling's depiction of gender.  But, while some people can make credible arguments for there being gender role portrayal problems in the series, I fail to see how any reader could have expected Rowling to do more with Hermione than she already has.  What more could she have done with Hermione's character than she has?  As this is indeed new information to me, I'm genuinely curious as to what the arguments might be.    

<<<<<<<<Harry's  relationship with Ginny is far more dynamic, including 
the  rescue in Book Two ( much more dramatic than the rescue 
of Hermione in Book Three) and his changing view of her 
character in OOP.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Harry's view of Ginny doesn't change though or, at least, we don't see him thinking about it (other than saying off-handedly, "Oh so that's why she suddenly talks around me now").  Everything we learn about Ginny is given to us in the form of tidbits from her brothers or information imparted by *Hermione.*  Just as Cho and her emotions are filtered almost entirely through Hermione, Ginny is largely filtered through a combination of her brothers and Hermione.  We don't see Harry discovering things about Ginny by direct interaction with Ginny herself to any great extent.   

<<<Rowling has said that Luna is the anti-Hermione. Ginny, I would 
say, is becoming the anti-Cho: undivided in her loyalty to Harry, 
unshakably good-humored, and able to take Harry's moods in 
stride.>>>>>>>>

Well, Hermione is likewise fiercely loyal to Harry, and certainly able to stand her ground with Harry.  I don't know that we saw much evidence of Ginny taking his moods in stride so much as we do from Hermione.  Yes, Ginny reminds him that she knows what it's like to be possessed by Voldemort, and yes, she tells him once not to "take that tone" with her.  But, Hermione stands up to him and his moods with much more frequency, I would say.

<<<<<<Also you'll note that Harry  left Hermione during the fight 
with the DE's. When she was unconscious and defenseless, it 
was Ron who stayed by her side, paralleling Book One where 
Hermione leaves Harry and goes back to tend the unconscious 
Ron.>>>>>>>>>>>>

You mean the Ron who was babbling nonsense because he was being choked by the brains?  Him?  I don't know that he *chose* to remain by Hermione so very much.  Harry had an intense reaction to Hermione's being knocked unconscious by the spell and thought dead for a moment or two ....... we see him barely sparing a thought to the injuries suffered by Ginny and Luna and even Ron.  He asked Neville to see Hermione to safety, and it was Neville who said he'd carry her and stay with Harry.  So, really, it was Neville much more than Ron who made a choice to remain with Hermione.  [I'd far rather see Hermione hook up with Neville than with Ron, btw].  I'm not sure what you're referring to by saying that Ron chose to remain with unconscious and defenseless!Hermione, really.  When the 2 groups meet back up, Ron's in no condition to be any help to anyone.  Am I misremembering?  

Penny
(always and evermore the ultimate Hermione fan........)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 23:03:39 2003
From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:03:39 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
References: <035e01c371c5$35719cc0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <001401c37338$c843b870$0302a8c0@athena>

One thing to consider regarding an H/H ship is that Harry and Hermione are
in the same house.  Like children raised together in the kubbutz, they may
see themselves (subliminally) as brother and sister, rather than as
potential mates.  It seems more common for students to date outside their
own houses, though this doesn't seem to hold for Slitherins (bunch of inbred
gits).  Below are some of the inter-house relationships that I have counted;
is there a comparable number of intra-house couples?

Cho/R - Cedric/H
Cho/R - Harry/G
Ginny/G - Michael Corner /R
Percy/G - Penelope/R
Hermione/G - Krum/D

Maybe there's hope for Harry/G - Luna/R yet.

-Jim




From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep  4 23:22:36 2003
From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:22:36 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <001401c37338$c843b870$0302a8c0@athena>
References: <035e01c371c5$35719cc0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> <001401c37338$c843b870$0302a8c0@athena>
Message-ID: <1062717761.2ED7D8E4@...>


On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 7:04PM -0500, Jim Flanagan wrote:
>
> Cho/R - Cedric/H
> Cho/R - Harry/G
> Ginny/G - Michael Corner /R
> Percy/G - Penelope/R
> Hermione/G - Krum/D
You skipped Fleur (B)/Roger (R)

However, Fred/Angelina is at least a single-house dating situation - and 
they're the same year. We also know from jkr's interviews that James & 
Lily were both Gryffindors, and OotP destroys my long-held hope that she 
was a year ahead of him.

Of course, those of us who think Sirius/Remus is canon can't use that as 
evidence of either house-based argument as it's unconfirmed which house 
they were.

>
> Maybe there's hope for Harry/G - Luna/R yet.

Harry? Who is this Harry that you pair with Luna?

Heidi, shipping ron/luna since 21/6/03



From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 00:16:15 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Trevor
In-Reply-To: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGMEHACMAA.neilward@...>
Message-ID: <20030905001616.91576.qmail@...>

SPEAKING OF BIZARRE THEORIES...

I have heard alot of people complain about their
disappointment with Book 5.  In the past, we enjoyed
the books so much, we wanted to discuss them at length
and ponder every hidden meaning.  This time, people
seem reluctant to discuss because they don't have the
same enthusiasm for this book.

Therefore, I suggest we rewrite Book 5 our way!

Each member of old crowd gets assigned a number to
determine the order in which they will write.  If each
attempt accounts for two or three pages, we will have
our own 750 page novel in a year or two.  It won't
take any longer than JKR does!  Plus you each get to
sneak your theory of how things should be written (
including ships... perhaps a few romantic
interludes...)  We should maybe try to resemble the
actual book story line somewhat which forces us to
read the story again.  This time we kill off some
other character... maybe one of the really anoying
ones.  Once their dead, I guess someone else could
brign them back to life in their part of the story...
they could yell out ..."I'm not dead yet!  I'm feeling
much better!"

I don't know, what do you think?  This probably breaks
all of the list rules or something.  I guess I'll be
banished to the Forbidden Forest and forced to drive
around in my Ford Anglia and hunt centaur and giant
spiders for sport!

What do you say, old Gang?


--- Neil Ward <neilward at ...> wrote:
> Randy reminded:
> 
> << Neville's heroic toad is named Trevor! >>
> 
> Trevor.  Of course!  That blows my Umbridge theory
> out of the water.  Or
> does it...?
> 
> Neil
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 00:16:16 2003
From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:16:16 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Trevor
References: <20030905001616.91576.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <00ac01c37342$ee39b160$ad391c40@...>

Randy wrote:

<What do you say, old Gang?>

I vote yay, could be fun.

Saitaina
****
"Sorry Vig...just seems like I'm about to
come out of a closet I didn't even know I
was in."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on
all this and plow face-first into a tree
because I was looking the wrong bloody
way. And I'll still be having a better
day than I am today."




From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 00:34:11 2003
From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:34:11 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Trevor
In-Reply-To: <20030905001616.91576.qmail@...>
References: <20030905001616.91576.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <1062722054.30E1A8C5@...>


On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 8:16PM -0500, Randy Estes wrote:
> interludes...)  We should maybe try to resemble the
> actual book story line somewhat which forces us to
> read the story again.  This time we kill off some
> other character... maybe one of the really anoying
> ones.  Once their dead, I guess someone else could
> brign them back to life in their part of the story...

I actually have a variation on pages 800-807 where Hagrid, not Sirius, 
is killed. Ih ad to change very few lines, other than the name itself.




From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 00:36:35 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:36:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Trevor
In-Reply-To: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGMEHACMAA.neilward@...>
Message-ID: <20030905003635.2579.qmail@...>

To expound on the Heroic Toad Theory (HTT) some more.

After clever fact finding using supercomputers and one
ancient Chinese Abacus, I have deduced the hidden
meaning behind the name Trevor!

It is now all so clear what JKR was afraid we would
find out...
Trevor stands for:

Toad's
Revenge
Eliminates
Voldemort
Otherwise known as 
Riddle

The pieces finally fit together.  Neither Neville nor
Harry is the chosen one.  Trevor obviously shares
their birthday.  Finally the truth comes out!

NTT/H ship sails into the sunset with web-like flags
flying high!


--- Neil Ward <neilward at ...> wrote:
> Randy reminded:
> 
> << Neville's heroic toad is named Trevor! >>
> 
> Trevor.  Of course!  That blows my Umbridge theory
> out of the water.  Or
> does it...?
> 
> Neil
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 01:58:27 2003
From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:58:27 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Rewriting OotP
References: <20030905001616.91576.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <004701c37351$33070870$0302a8c0@athena>

"Randy Estes" <estesrandy at ...>
wrote:

> 
> Therefore, I suggest we rewrite Book 5 our way!
> 

OOH Cool!  Dibs on page 1:

"It was a dark and stormy night..."

-Jim



From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 02:16:48 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:16:48 -0000
Subject: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <074101c3732f$d74b7690$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bj8rmg+jm1d@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> He asked Neville to see Hermione to safety, and it was Neville who 
> said he'd carry her and stay with Harry.  So, really, it was 
> Neville much more than Ron who made a choice to remain with 
> Hermione.  [I'd far rather see Hermione hook up with Neville than 
> with Ron, btw].   

Oh, I loved the Neville/Hermione things in OotP!  And given that 
he's emerging as another doppelganger for Harry, that would very 
nearly make her a partner with the hero, in a way.  (Plus he and 
Harry share a birthday.)  

I think that with Ron and Harry, Hermione is in the age-old 
situation of a girl being taken for granted by her male friends.  
Harry honestly still doesn't show any signs of thinking of her 
except as a platonic friend (hence his bafflement at Cho thinking he 
wanted to meet Hermione for romantic reasons, and his earlier 
bafflement when Krum confronted him).  

Neville never needed a house to fall on him to recognize that 
Hermione was a girl, unlike Ron.  He's seen her and appreciated her 
all along.  (We see the two of them together right at the start of 
the first book!)  She largely annoys Ron and Harry, when they're not 
busy taking advantage of her to get their homework done, at which 
time they suddenly decide that it's great to have her for a friend.  
She's helped Neville in Potions for years, but one never gets the 
impression that he's taking advantage of her or doesn't appreciate 
everything she's done for him.  And she never seems to be 
withholding her help from Neville on principle, the way she has 
often done with Ron or Harry when they're irking her (or just taking 
advantage again, which they did WAY too much in OotP).  

Neville GETS Hermione.  And hopefully those three words will 
eventually prove to be prophetic...<g>

--Barb







From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 02:12:15 2003
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:12:15 -0500
Subject: Fw: Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" meets the 21st century ...
Message-ID: <00b001c37353$21673e80$3605a6d8@...>

Totally OT. Sorry, but I loved this. Using my usual standard of "I haven't
seen this one before" I send it along.

~Amanda

> ABBOTT: Ultimate SuperDuper Computer Store. Can I help you?
>
> COSTELLO: Thanks. I'm setting up a home office in the den, and I'm
thinking of buying a computer.
>
> ABBOTT: Mac?
>
> COSTELLO: No, the name is Lou.
>
> ABBOTT: Your computer?
>
> COSTELLO: I don't own a computer. I want to buy one.
>
> ABBOTT: Mac?
>
> COSTELLO: I told you, my name is Lou.
>
> ABBOTT: What about Windows?
>
> COSTELLO: Why? Does it get stuffy?
>
> ABBOTT: Do you want a computer with Windows?
>
> COSTELLO: I don't know. What do I see when I look out the windows?
>
> ABBOTT: Wallpaper.
>
> COSTELLO: Never mind the windows. I need a computer and software.
>
> ABBOTT: Software that runs on Windows?
>
> COSTELLO: No, on the computer! I need something I can use to write
> proposals, track expenses. You know, run a business. What have you got?
>
> ABBOTT: Office.
>
> COSTELLO: Yeah, for my office. Can you recommend anything?
>
> ABBOTT: I just did.
>
> COSTELLO: You just did what?
>
> ABBOTT: Recommended something.
>
> COSTELLO: You recommended something?
>
> ABBOTT: Yes.
>
> COSTELLO: For my office?
>
> ABBOTT: Yes.
>
> COSTELLO: Okay, what did you recommend for my office?
>
> ABBOTT: Office.
>
> COSTELLO: Yes, for my office.
>
> ABBOTT: Office for Windows.
>
> COSTELLO: I already have an office and it already has windows! Let's say
I'm
> sitting at my computer, and I want to type a proposal. What do I need?
>
> ABBOTT: Word.
>
> COSTELLO: If I'm writing a proposal, I'm going to need lots of words. But
what program do I load?
>
> ABBOTT: Word.
>
> COSTELLO: What word?
>
> ABBOTT: The Word in Office.
>
> COSTELLO: The only word in office is office.
>
> ABBOTT: The Word in Office for Windows.
>
> COSTELLO: Which word in "office for windows?"
>
> ABBOTT: The Word you get when you click the blue W.
>
> COSTELLO: I'm going to click your big W if you don't give me a straight
> answer. Let's forget about words for a minute. What do I need if I want to
watch a movie over the Internet?
>
> ABBOTT: RealOne.
>
> COSTELLO: Maybe a real movie, maybe a cartoon. What I watch is none of
your business. But what do I need to watch it?
>
> ABBOTT: RealOne.
>
> COSTELLO: If it's a long movie I'll also want to watch reels two, three
and four. Can I watch reel four?
>
> ABBOTT: Of course.
>
> COSTELLO: Great! With what?
>
> ABBOTT: RealOne.
>
> COSTELLO: Okay, so I'm sitting at my computer and I want to watch a movie.
What do I do?
>
> ABBOTT: You click the blue 1.
>
> COSTELLO: I click the blue one what?
>
> ABBOTT: The blue 1.
>
> COSTELLO: Is that different from the blue W?
>
> ABBOTT: Of course it is. The blue 1 is RealOne. The blue W is Word.
>
> COSTELLO: What word?
>
> ABBOTT: The Word in Office for Windows.
>
> COSTELLO: But there's three words in "office for windows!"
>
> ABBOTT: No, just one. But it's the most popular Word in the world.
>
> COSTELLO: It is?
>
> ABBOTT: Yes, although to be fair, there aren't many other Words left. It
> pretty much wiped out all the other Words.
>
> COSTELLO: And that word is the real one?
>
> ABBOTT: No. RealOne has nothing to do with Word. RealOne isn't even part
of Office.
>
> COSTELLO: Never mind; I don't want to get started with that again. But I
> also need something for bank accounts, loans, and so on. What do you have
to
> help me track my money?
>
> ABBOTT: Money.
>
> COSTELLO: That's right. What do you have?
>
> ABBOTT: Money.
>
> COSTELLO: I need money to track my money?
>
> ABBOTT: No, not really. It comes bundled with your computer.
>
> COSTELLO: What comes bundled with my computer?
>
> ABBOTT: Money.
>
> COSTELLO: Money comes bundled with my computer?
>
> ABBOTT: Exactly! No extra charge.
>
> COSTELLO: I get a bundle of money with my computer at no extra charge? How
much money do I get?
>
> ABBOTT: Just one copy.
>
> COSTELLO: I get a copy of money. Isn't that illegal?
>
> ABBOTT: No. We have a license from Microsoft to make copies of Money.
>
> COSTELLO: Microsoft can license you to make money?
>
> ABBOTT: Why not? They own it.
>
> COSTELLO: Well, it's great that I'm going to get free money, but I'll
still need to track it. Do you have anything for managing your money?
>
> ABBOTT: Managing Your Money? That program disappeared years ago.
>
> COSTELLO: Well, what do you sell in its place?
>
> ABBOTT: Money.
>
> COSTELLO: You sell money?
>
> ABBOTT: Of course. But if you buy a computer from us, you get it for free.
>
> COSTELLO: That's all very wonderful, but I'll be running a business. Do
you have any software for, you know, accounting?
>
> ABBOTT: Simply Accounting.
>
> COSTELLO: Probably, but it might get a little complicated.
>
> ABBOTT: If you don't want Simply Accounting, you might try M.Y.O.B.
>
> COSTELLO: M.Y.O.B.? What does that stand for?
>
> ABBOTT: Mind Your Own Business.
>
> COSTELLO: I beg your pardon?
>
> ABBOTT: No, that would be I.B.Y.P. I said "M.Y.O.B."
>
> COSTELLO: Look, I just need to do some accounting for my home business.
You know -- accounting? You do it with money.
>
> ABBOTT: Of course you can do accounting with Money. But you may need more.
>
> COSTELLO: More money?
>
> ABBOTT: More than Money. Money can't do everything.
>
> COSTELLO: I don't need a sermon! Okay, let's forget about money for the
> moment. I'm worried that my computer might ... what's the word? Crash. And
if my computer crashes, what can I use to restore my data?
>
> ABBOTT: GoBack.
>
> COSTELLO: Okay. I'm worried about my computer smashing and I need
something to restore my data. What do you recommend?
>
> ABBOTT: GoBack.
>
> COSTELLO: How many times do I have to repeat myself?
>
> ABBOTT: I've never asked you to repeat yourself. All I said was GoBack.
>
> COSTELLO: How can I go back if I haven't even been anywhere? Okay, I'll go
back. What do I need to write a proposal?
>
> ABBOTT: Word.
>
> COSTELLO: But I'll need lots of words to write a proposal.
>
> ABBOTT: No, you only need one Word -- the Word in Office for Windows.
>
> COSTELLO: But there's three words in ... Oh, never mind.
>
> ABBOTT: Hello? Hello? Customers! Why do they always hang up on me? Oh,
well.
> Ultimate Super Duper Computer Store. Can I help you?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Use custom emotions -- try MSN Messenger 6.0!
> http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon
>
>
>
>
****************************************************************************
*
> "CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:  This transmission (including any
>  accompanying attachments) is confidential, is intended only for the
>  individual or entity named above, and is likely to contain privileged,
> proprietary and confidential information that is exempt from disclosure
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> you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, use
> of or reliance upon any of the information contained in this transmission
> is strictly prohibited.  Any inadvertent or unauthorized disclosure shall
not compromise or waive the confidentiality of this transmission or any
applicable attorney-client privilege.
>
> If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately
> notify us at postmaster at ...."
>
>
> Kinetic Concepts, Inc.
>
>
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**
>




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 02:29:35 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:29:35 -0000
Subject: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <1062717761.2ED7D8E4@...>
Message-ID: <bj8sef+l0pb@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> However, Fred/Angelina is at least a single-house dating 
> situation - and they're the same year. We also know from jkr's 
> interviews that James & Lily were both Gryffindors, and OotP 
> destroys my long-held hope that she was a year ahead of him.

Well, I didn't see any evidence at all that there was still any 
Fred/Angelina in OotP.  It think they just went to the Yule Ball as 
friends.  (He certainly didn't invite her in a very romantic way,  
and their dancing at the Ball didn't seem to be of the holding-each-
other-tightly-and-swaying-slowly sort.)  The fact that they went 
together is evidence, I think, along with the brief (and painful!) 
bit of Harry/Cho, that JKR doesn't feel constrained by the need to 
have the male in the pair be the older one (after all, Angelina is 
about five or six months older than Fred).  I don't think any of the 
Yule Ball pairs are necessarily going to be pairs  in the rest of 
the series.  It was a dance, a one-time thing.  I can't think of a 
single YB pair who were were referred to as a couple in OotP.  (And 
I really doubt that the YB is an indicator of Neville/Ginny.  She 
was his second choice, after all, and she hooked up with Michael 
Corner because of the YB.)

As for Lily and James--Lily could still have a birthday earlier in 
the year than James, if JKR ever divulges this info.  And isn't JKR 
older than her new husband, or am I thinking of some other famous 
couple?

--Barb

 




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 16:24:45 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:24:45 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <004701c37351$33070870$0302a8c0@athena>
Message-ID: <bjadcd+gt1l@...>

Randy said: 
> > Therefore, I suggest we rewrite Book 5 our way!

and Jim began:
> OOH Cool!  Dibs on page 1:
> 
> "It was a dark and stormy night..."
> 

Hmmm...maybe we should *all* re-write page 1 in the style of 
another author...

In  a flowerbed on Privet Drive, there lay a teenager.  Not a 
normal Muggle teenager , nor yet a cheerful wizard teenager. He 
was a sulky, angry wizard teenager and that means trouble.

Pippin
with apologies to JRRT. 




From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 17:41:57 2003
From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:41:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <bj8sef+l0pb@...>
Message-ID: <20030905174157.50250.qmail@...>

Molly and Arthur Weasley were also both Gryffindors, if I'm not mistaken.

psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent at ...> wrote:--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> However, Fred/Angelina is at least a single-house dating 
> situation - and they're the same year. We also know from jkr's 
> interviews that James & Lily were both Gryffindors, and OotP 
> destroys my long-held hope that she was a year ahead of him.

Well, I didn't see any evidence at all that there was still any 
Fred/Angelina in OotP.  It think they just went to the Yule Ball as 
friends.  (He certainly didn't invite her in a very romantic way,  
and their dancing at the Ball didn't seem to be of the holding-each-
other-tightly-and-swaying-slowly sort.)  The fact that they went 
together is evidence, I think, along with the brief (and painful!) 
bit of Harry/Cho, that JKR doesn't feel constrained by the need to 
have the male in the pair be the older one (after all, Angelina is 
about five or six months older than Fred).  I don't think any of the 
Yule Ball pairs are necessarily going to be pairs  in the rest of 
the series.  It was a dance, a one-time thing.  I can't think of a 
single YB pair who were were referred to as a couple in OotP.  (And 
I really doubt that the YB is an indicator of Neville/Ginny.  She 
was his second choice, after all, and she hooked up with Michael 
Corner because of the YB.)

As for Lily and James--Lily could still have a birthday earlier in 
the year than James, if JKR ever divulges this info.  And isn't JKR 
older than her new husband, or am I thinking of some other famous 
couple?

--Barb




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Atticus Finch for President 2004

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From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 21:42:31 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:42:31 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bjadcd+gt1l@...>
Message-ID: <bjb007+ffc5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> Randy said: 
> > > Therefore, I suggest we rewrite Book 5 our way!
> 
> and Jim began:
> > OOH Cool!  Dibs on page 1:
> > 
> > "It was a dark and stormy night..."
> > 
> 
> Hmmm...maybe we should *all* re-write page 1 in the style of 
> another author...
> 
> In  a flowerbed on Privet Drive, there lay a teenager.  Not a 
> normal Muggle teenager , nor yet a cheerful wizard teenager. He 
> was a sulky, angry wizard teenager and that means trouble.
> 
> Pippin
> with apologies to JRRT.

Ya got trouble my friend, right here in Little Whinging.  With a 
capital 'T' that rhymes with 'V' that stands for Voldemort!

--Barb, with apologies to, erm, the Music Man and everyone




From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep  5 23:33:36 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:33:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bjadcd+gt1l@...>
Message-ID: <20030905233336.99009.qmail@...>

Okay, I get it!  How about this....

"From there to here, from here to there, muggle things
are everywhere.

One Dementor, Two Dementor, Red Dementor, Blue
Dementor. 
Black Dementor, Blue Dementor, Old Dementor, New
Dementor.
This one has a little star.
This one has a little scar.
Say! what a lot of Dementors there are."


--- pippin_999 <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
> Randy said: 
> > > Therefore, I suggest we rewrite Book 5 our way!
> 
> and Jim began:
> > OOH Cool!  Dibs on page 1:
> > 
> > "It was a dark and stormy night..."
> > 
> 
> Hmmm...maybe we should *all* re-write page 1 in the
> style of 
> another author...
> 
> In  a flowerbed on Privet Drive, there lay a
> teenager.  Not a 
> normal Muggle teenager , nor yet a cheerful wizard
> teenager. He 
> was a sulky, angry wizard teenager and that means
> trouble.
> 
> Pippin
> with apologies to JRRT. 
> 
> 


__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Sep  6 01:37:09 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 01:37:09 -0000
Subject: Essay on H/H in light of OoP (long, VERY long) (SHIP, mostly SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <074101c3732f$d74b7690$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bjbdo5+k6jm@...>

Penny
>> I fail to see how any reader could have expected Rowling to 
do more with Hermione than she already has.  What more could 
she have done with Hermione's character than she has?  As this 
is indeed new information to me, I'm genuinely curious as to 
what the arguments might be.   <<

Hmm...well, I defer to your knowledge of the fandom, but I 
thought I detected, in the initial commentary after OOP, and from 
what I've heard there was a similar reaction to GoF,  a 
disappointment  that Hermione hadn't developed a passion for 
something besides books and House Elves. 

I said:
> 
> <<<<<<Also you'll note that Harry  left Hermione during the fight 
> with the DE's. When she was unconscious and defenseless, it 
> was Ron who stayed by her side, paralleling Book One where 
> Hermione leaves Harry and goes back to tend the 
unconscious 
> Ron.>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
Penny:
> You mean the Ron who was babbling nonsense because he 
was being choked by the brains?  Him?  I don't know that he 
*chose* to remain by Hermione so very much.  Harry had an 
intense reaction to Hermione's being knocked unconscious by 
the spell and thought dead for a moment or two ....... we see him 
barely sparing a thought to the injuries suffered by Ginny and 
Luna and even Ron.  He asked Neville to see Hermione to 
safety, and it was Neville who said he'd carry her and stay with 
Harry.  So, really, it was Neville much more than Ron who made 
a choice to remain with Hermione.  [I'd far rather see Hermione 
hook up with Neville than with Ron, btw].  I'm not sure what you're 
referring to by saying that Ron chose to remain with unconscious 
and defenseless!Hermione, really.  When the 2 groups meet 
back up, Ron's in no condition to be any help to anyone.  Am I 
misremembering?  <<<

I think so. The action is hard to follow deliberately, I think, to
play down Ron's role (and also to hide that Lupin strikes no blow 
in the battle.)

 Ron,Ginny and Luna are separated from Harry, Hermione and 
Neville when they escape from the DE ambush in the Hall of 
Prophecy. 

The latter three flee to the Time Room, where Hermione is 
stricken unconscious by the slashing hex. Harry and Neville run 
with the unconscious Hermione to the Door chamber. They are 
joined there by Ron, Ginny and Luna who were in the Planet 
Room. Ron is already bleeding and giggly. Nobody saw what 
was done to him. (I have a feeling the giggles didn't come from a 
Death Eater curse at all, but rather a close encounter with 
Jupiter, planet of mirth--and kingship.)

Bella and four other DE's chase them into the Brain Room. It is 
then that the addled Ron accio's the brain. Harry tries to use 
Diffindo to sever the tentacles but it fails. Ginny screams and is 
stunned. Neville tries Stupefy with no effect.  Harry and Neville 
are now facing five DE's. Harry runs away, hoping the DE's will 
follow him and that Neville will stay to help Ron.

Harry arrives in the Death Chamber, along with the five DE's who 
were chasing him, and five more rush in, accounting for all the 
DE's except the baby-fied one and one other, perhaps the 
seriously wounded Nott.  Neville rushes to defend Harry, leaving 
Hermione behind in the brain room. 

 Neville tells Harry that he thinks Ron is all right, that he was
still fighting the brain when Neville left. He later tells Lupin
again that Ron is all right. So Neville has left Ron alone to fight 
off thebrain and defend the unconscious Hermione, and Ron, 
despite being damaged, does so successfully. 

When Harry chases Bella back through the Brain Room after 
Sirius dies,  he leaps over Luna, who is groaning on the floor, 
Ginny,who, by the sound of it has just come to, Ron who giggles 
feebly, and  Hermione who is still unconscious. So at this point, 
Ron has  fought off the brain, apparently single handed and has 
stayed with the unconscious Hermione all through the fight in the 
Death Chamber.

Pippin






From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Sep  6 20:04:13 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <20030905233336.99009.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <20030906200413.67096.qmail@...>

If you guys are serious about this, We could all pick
chapters. How many are interested?  We may need a few
people to share a chapter.  Or we could do the page by
page meandering storyline which could be very funny!

The page by page method would require less thinking
time when you are composing!  The chapter by chapter
might give people more room to create.  What does the
old crowd think?

My Trevor tatoo is starting to glow.  I think we need
to speak to the great and powerful Neil.  Puffs of
smoke and flames shoot into the air as a giant face
appears behind the stage.  Meanwhile a strange man is
working a computer monitor behind a curtain.  

What is thy bidding?  oh great and powerful Neil?


--- Randy Estes <estesrandy at ...> wrote:
> Okay, I get it!  How about this....
> 
> "From there to here, from here to there, muggle
> things
> are everywhere.
> 
> One Dementor, Two Dementor, Red Dementor, Blue
> Dementor. 
> Black Dementor, Blue Dementor, Old Dementor, New
> Dementor.
> This one has a little star.
> This one has a little scar.
> Say! what a lot of Dementors there are."
> 
> 
> --- pippin_999 <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
> > Randy said: 
> > > > Therefore, I suggest we rewrite Book 5 our
> way!
> > 
> > and Jim began:
> > > OOH Cool!  Dibs on page 1:
> > > 
> > > "It was a dark and stormy night..."
> > > 
> > 
> > Hmmm...maybe we should *all* re-write page 1 in
> the
> > style of 
> > another author...
> > 
> > In  a flowerbed on Privet Drive, there lay a
> > teenager.  Not a 
> > normal Muggle teenager , nor yet a cheerful wizard
> > teenager. He 
> > was a sulky, angry wizard teenager and that means
> > trouble.
> > 
> > Pippin
> > with apologies to JRRT. 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> 


__________________________________
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From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep  7 09:11:22 2003
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:11:22 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <20030906200413.67096.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGEEHLCMAA.neilward@...>

Randy said:

<< My Trevor tatoo is starting to glow.  I think we need to speak to the
great and powerful Neil.  Puffs of smoke and flames shoot into the air as a
giant face appears behind the stage.  Meanwhile a strange man is working a
computer monitor behind a curtain.

What is thy bidding?  oh great and powerful Neil? >>

***

The giant face boomed: "Ignore the strange man behind the curtain. He is
just looking after the place for his mother.  And, by the way, if you want
to find your dream I command you to FOLLOW THE NATTERJACK TOAD."

Several Munchkins appeared and started nodding vigorously at each other and
laughing with their hands on their hips (because they had attended stage
school and had been told this is what people do in crowd scenes).  They
began chanting, "Follow the natterjack toad!... follow the natterjack toad!"
slowly building to a fully blown song and dance routine:

[Insert Wizard of Oz filk I don't have time to write]

***

Seriously, I don't mind what people do in here, as long as they clean up
after themselves.  I'm more Hagrid (keeper of the keys) than Dumbledore
(bloke in charge with long white beard) on this list.

Randy's idea sounds cool, although I can't really join in myself at the
moment, sadly.  How about I hand my ruby slippers to Randy to try to kick
something off and if you decide to do a chapter by chapter thing, I may jump
in some way down the line.

Neil





From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep  7 21:59:06 2003
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:59:06 -0500
Subject: Rewriting OoP; some gender & SHIP replies
References: <bjbdo5+k6jm@...>
Message-ID: <01d501c3758b$42d0f400$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

Hi --

Hoping this reply isn't too stale ------- I've been out of town.  I like the idea of a fun rewrite of OoP and have no preference as to whether it's a few pages or a chapter at a time.  Jim, the "dark and stormy night" opening belongs in Book 6 according to John Granger.  For those of you who didn't see his talk at Nimbus on Alchemy & Doppelgangers, the hot, dry weather in the opening of OoP was in keeping with the alchemical stage of the 5th book, the "black stage" IIRC.  Granger says to look for it to be cool and wet (rainy) on Privet Drive in the opening pages of Book 6 (as we move into the "white stage").  

I said:
>> I fail to see how any reader could have expected Rowling to 
do more with Hermione than she already has.  What more could 
she have done with Hermione's character than she has?  As this 
is indeed new information to me, I'm genuinely curious as to 
what the arguments might be.   <<

Pippin responded with:

<<<<<<<<Hmm...well, I defer to your knowledge of the fandom, but I 
thought I detected, in the initial commentary after OOP, and from 
what I've heard there was a similar reaction to GoF,  a 
disappointment  that Hermione hadn't developed a passion for 
something besides books and House Elves.>>>>>>>>

Well, I'll defer to your knowledge about what the fandom is saying post-OOP.  I haven't been following HPfGU very closely at all.  It's just that Rowling herself has proclaimed her belief that Hermione is a strong character and this comports with my own thoughts.  And, almost all the scholars who have addressed the gender issue have concluded that Rowling's depiction of gender is positive and overall strong, most especially when evaluating Hermione and McGonagall.  That one salon.com commentator .......Christine ??? who wrote the piece entitled "Harry's Girl Trouble" definitely had issues with Rowling's gender stance, but I could certainly have refuted all her points underlying her arguments.  IOW, I don't think she had a strong position.  Eliza Dresang's piece in the Ivory Tower book is much more on-point, IMHO.   

Pippin:> 
> <<<<<<Also you'll note that Harry  left Hermione during the fight 
> with the DE's. When she was unconscious and defenseless, it 
> was Ron who stayed by her side, paralleling Book One where 
> Hermione leaves Harry and goes back to tend the 
unconscious 
> Ron.>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
Me:
> You mean the Ron who was babbling nonsense because he 
was being choked by the brains?  Him?  I don't know that he 
*chose* to remain by Hermione so very much.  <snip> <<<

Pippin: <<<<<Neville tells Harry that he thinks Ron is all right, that he was
still fighting the brain when Neville left. He later tells Lupin
again that Ron is all right. So Neville has left Ron alone to fight 
off thebrain and defend the unconscious Hermione, and Ron, 
despite being damaged, does so successfully. 

When Harry chases Bella back through the Brain Room after 
Sirius dies,  he leaps over Luna, who is groaning on the floor, 
Ginny,who, by the sound of it has just come to, Ron who giggles 
feebly, and  Hermione who is still unconscious. So at this point, 
Ron has  fought off the brain, apparently single handed and has 
stayed with the unconscious Hermione all through the fight in the 
Death Chamber.>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, er.......okay.  But, isn't Ron also defending Ginny and Luna?  It's not as though Ron and Hermione are alone, after all.  I also just don't believe he made any conscious choices in this scenario either.  

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep  7 23:40:51 2003
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:40:51 -0000
Subject: hot and dry weather (Was: Rewriting OoP; some gender & SHIP replies
In-Reply-To: <01d501c3758b$42d0f400$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bjgfm3+en18@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
<<  Jim, the "dark and stormy night" opening belongs in Book 6 
according to John Granger.  For those of you who didn't see his talk 
at Nimbus on Alchemy & Doppelgangers, the hot, dry weather in the 
opening of OoP was in keeping with the alchemical stage of the 5th 
book, the "black stage" IIRC.  Granger says to look for it to be cool 
and wet (rainy) on Privet Drive in the opening pages of Book 6 (as we 
move into the "white stage"). >> 

What was the weather of the sumner of 1996 in Surrey, England? A 
couple of people on Main List have presented quotes about the summer 
of 1995 being a heat wave and drought season with a hosepipe ban in 
RL UK, leaving me to ask whether the summer of OoP was hot and 
droughty because of the nigredo stage that John Granger mentioned, 
or because it was commenting on RL summer of 1995.




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep  8 13:11:26 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:11:26 -0000
Subject: The Ministry Battle: Anti-Ship (was: Rewriting OoP; some gender & SHIP replies)
In-Reply-To: <01d501c3758b$42d0f400$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bjhv5u+v37n@...>

Pippin wrote:
 
> When Harry chases Bella back through the Brain Room after 
> Sirius dies,  he leaps over Luna, who is groaning on the floor, 
> Ginny,who, by the sound of it has just come to, Ron who giggles 
> feebly, and  Hermione who is still unconscious. So at this point, 
> Ron has  fought off the brain, apparently single handed and has 
> stayed with the unconscious Hermione all through the fight in the 
> Death Chamber.>>>>>>>>>>>

Penny wrote:

> Well, er.......okay.  But, isn't Ron also defending Ginny and 
> Luna?  It's not as though Ron and Hermione are alone, after all.  
> I also just don't believe he made any conscious choices in this 
> scenario either.  
 
I do think JKR made a conscious decision here, however, to yank our 
chains some more concerning who was going to die.  I didn't have the 
impression that there was shippy stuff going on in the sequence 
depicting the fight at the Ministry.  The important aspects seemed 
to be a) equating Neville with Harry (pushing home the idea that 
they're doppelgangers and that Neville, just as easily as Harry, 
could have been marked by Voldemort); and b) making us think just 
about ANYONE could be the one to buy the farm.  

The purpose of Neville and Harry being in one place and the other 
four in another was, IMO, to hide them from Harry, and therefore 
from the reader.  A tension was created so that we didn't know 
whether one of the four was going to be the infamous death.  
Frankly, by that point in the book I was getting a little tired of 
the death red herrings.  Thus far the possibility of death had been 
dangled before us concerning Arthur Weasley, Hagrid, McGonagall and 
Dumbledore, at the very least.  During the fight we were also, I 
think, supposed to think that it could be Ron, Hermione, Ginny or 
Luna, and when Harry was with Neville, there were times it seemed it 
could be him (Neville, that is).  

I think another reason for the other four to be out of the way for a 
while is that three of the four--and maybe Luna, as well--could have 
been candidates for helping Sirius defend himself against Bellatrix, 
and JKR needed to limit the help available to him.  It seems very 
unlikely that separating the four of them from Harry & Neville had 
any shippy ulterior motives about it.  It was more like the Trio 
from the earlier books had been doubled, and Harry was on his own 
once more, even though he was with his doppelganger (they could be 
considered one person), while Hermione and the anti-Hermione (Luna) 
were also together, along with Ron and Ginny (male and female 
Weasleys).

--Barb





From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep  8 13:37:19 2003
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:37:19 -0500
Subject: hot and dry weather & The Ministry Battle: Anti-Ship
References: <bjgfm3+en18@...>
Message-ID: <02c001c3760e$54099640$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

Hi --

Catlady asked:

<<<<<What was the weather of the sumner of 1996 in Surrey, England? A 
couple of people on Main List have presented quotes about the summer 
of 1995 being a heat wave and drought season with a hosepipe ban in 
RL UK, leaving me to ask whether the summer of OoP was hot and 
droughty because of the nigredo stage that John Granger mentioned, 
or because it was commenting on RL summer of 1995.>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, I think we've proven time and again that JKR is not consulting the calendar or an almanac or any other source of RL information when she throws in dates/days, etc.  Bonfire day doesn't occur on a Tuesday in RL 1981, etc.  I'm sure Lexicon Steve could pipe up with all these discrepancies, but I think it's fairly clear that Rowling isn't writing to a specific real-life timeline (or if she is, she needs to have her editors do more thorough proofing!).  OTOH, I think it is certainly possible that she is writing in the alchemical literary tradition and therefore used the hot, dry weather to further those objectives.  

Barb wrote, with regard to whether the Ministry Battle scenes might have any shipping relevance:

<<<<I do think JKR made a conscious decision here, however, to yank our 
chains some more concerning who was going to die.  I didn't have the 
impression that there was shippy stuff going on in the sequence 
depicting the fight at the Ministry.  The important aspects seemed 
to be a) equating Neville with Harry (pushing home the idea that 
they're doppelgangers and that Neville, just as easily as Harry, 
could have been marked by Voldemort); and b) making us think just 
about ANYONE could be the one to buy the farm.>>>>>>>>>>

*nods*  I agree that my impression when reading OoP for the first time was, as you say, that Rowling was trying to equate Neville more distinctly with Harry, and to make us think that any one of the newly-expanded Trio could be the infamous death.  Despite all the indicators toward Sirius being the one throughout the book (and no, I didn't buy that it was Arthur or even McGonagall) --------> I still held onto the idea that Sirius would be spared in a red-herring twist and that it would in fact be one of the kids.  I really thought probably Neville or Ginny strongly at different points (though I was momentarily alarmed about Hermione, I didn't really take this one too seriously since, after all, Harry still needs Hermione quite alot to survive the next 1.5 books!).  

I do think, however, that pairing Hermione up with Harry/Neville when the 6-some is separated is significant, even if not specifically from a shipping standpoint.  I do think that we're seeing Hermione and/or Harry and Hermione as a partner spotlighted yet again, as Hermione could easily have been paired with Ron and Luna and Ginny could have been the one to nearly die and be dragged along by Neville.  Again, these are conscious choices by Rowling, and while I don't pretend to think that I can guess exactly what she meant by such a choice, I think it's significant.  

Penny      



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep  8 14:12:58 2003
From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (hp_lexicon)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:12:58 -0000
Subject: hot and dry weather & The Ministry Battle: Anti-Ship
In-Reply-To: <02c001c3760e$54099640$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bji2pa+4rvo@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Catlady asked:
> 
> <<<<<What was the weather of the sumner of 1996 in Surrey, 
England? A 
> couple of people on Main List have presented quotes about the 
summer 
> of 1995 being a heat wave and drought season with a hosepipe ban 
in 
> RL UK, leaving me to ask whether the summer of OoP was hot and 
> droughty because of the nigredo stage that John Granger mentioned, 
> or because it was commenting on RL summer of 1995.>>>>>>>>>>>>

The drought of 1995 continued into 1996, although it wasn't quite as 
bad. 

> 
> Well, I think we've proven time and again that JKR is not 
consulting the calendar or an almanac or any other source of RL 
information when she throws in dates/days, etc.  Bonfire day doesn't 
occur on a Tuesday in RL 1981, etc.  I'm sure Lexicon Steve could 
pipe up with all these discrepancies, but I think it's fairly clear 
that Rowling isn't writing to a specific real-life timeline (or if 
she is, she needs to have her editors do more thorough proofing!).  
OTOH, I think it is certainly possible that she is writing in the 
alchemical literary tradition and therefore used the hot, dry 
weather to further those objectives.  

There is a new page on the Lexicon about various timeline questions 
and problems, including the drought, the Playstation, etc. It's at 
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timeline-facts.html

My own idea of why she is so vague about dates is that she's trying 
to maintain a sense of "now" to the stories. She knows that her 
books will be read for years to come as classics and she doesn't 
want to have them appear dated or become "historical fiction." She 
sees her writing as a way to get her social ideas accross and 
doesn't want the message to be lost as the years pass. She's not 
trying to preach, but the message is pretty darn clear all the same. 

On the other hand, she has created a world with a past that 
is "dated," in the sense that we know the year of Grindlewald's 
defeat and of Dilys Derwent's years as Head at Hogwarts. There is a 
definite timeline to her universe. She just avoids filling in the 
dates within the story itself.

Steve




From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep  8 22:01:19 2003
From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 22:01:19 -0000
Subject: hot and dry weather 
In-Reply-To: <bjgfm3+en18@...>
Message-ID: <bjiu7f+ro9i@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> wrote:
 
>>> What was the weather of the sumner of 1996 in Surrey, England? A 
couple of people on Main List have presented quotes about the summer 
of 1995 being a heat wave and drought season with a hosepipe ban in 
RL UK, leaving me to ask whether the summer of OoP was hot and 
droughty because of the nigredo stage that John Granger mentioned, 
or because it was commenting on RL summer of 1995.>>>

You asked for it didn't you? My husband is a Meteorologist, so we're 
a bit weather obsessed in my house. Yes, weather obsessed even by 
British standards, which makes us very sad!

Thames Water who supply most of Surrey have not had a hosepipe ban 
since c.1989. There have been hosepipe bans in other parts of the 
country though.

In terms of what the weather was like, July 1996 actually saw higher 
rain fall than average. August the 2nd 1996 had a lower than average 
Max temperature - recorded at 20.7 c in Crowthorne, Berkshire which 
is quite near Surrey. Please see 
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/aug1996.lst for a breakdown of daily 
temperatures for Crowthorne for August. This site actually details a 
fellow Meteorologist's personal recordings of weather, but is 
recommended by my husband who is quite pedantic about these issues!

It might (or might not) interest you to know that a "drought" used 
to be announced by the Met Office in Britain once an area had not 
had rain for *2* weeks. Now, it is left to our water companies to 
define droughts, and they tend not to. We apparently have far fewer 
hosepipe bans than we used to as the water companies are better at 
conserving water. Thus, although 7 months of this year have been 
hotter (and drier) than average, we have no hosepipe ban. The fact 
that my lawn and many of my plants are nolonger green and lush (in 
fact they look downright dead) is another matter all together!!

I would agree with Steve that JKR is not trying to link the 
Potterverse into RL. The dates, moons and weather simply do not fit. 
I don't think that she is particularly interested in dates or 
numbers as the constant theories are the number of Hogwarts' 
students bear testimony.

Ali






From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  9 13:49:33 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:49:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGEEHLCMAA.neilward@...>
Message-ID: <20030909134933.17116.qmail@...>

The torch has passed to me.  I will do my best to
organize this.  I dedicate this rewrite to the memory
of Warren Zevon who died this week.  

Warren wrote songs in a sardonic style that puts mine
to shame.  We shared the same birthday.  I wonder if
January 24 is the sardonic musician part of the
Zodiac?  I'm sure Remus Lupin is alone crying
somewhere thinking about the loss of the author of the
Werewolves of London. BAAAAHOOOOOOOOO!!!

"I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colata at Trader
Vicks, and his hair was perfect!"...Warren Zevon

I will post the chapter titles of Book 5 for those who
are interested to choose from. Collaborating on
chapters is highly recommended, so groups may choose
to sign up for a particular chapter.  I only ask that
I may be allowed to write some of the Fred and George
parts of the story since they are my heroes in this
story.

This is a very democratic book writing group.  So feel
free to make suggestions about what needs to be fixed,
etc...  The object is to have some fun, and be able to
make a Book 5 that we all love.

Revive Book Five!

Randy



--- Neil Ward <neilward at ...> wrote:
> Randy said:
> 
> << My Trevor tatoo is starting to glow.  I think we
> need to speak to the
> great and powerful Neil.  Puffs of smoke and flames
> shoot into the air as a
> giant face appears behind the stage.  Meanwhile a
> strange man is working a
> computer monitor behind a curtain.
> 
> What is thy bidding?  oh great and powerful Neil? >>
> 
> ***
> 
> The giant face boomed: "Ignore the strange man
> behind the curtain. He is
> just looking after the place for his mother.  And,
> by the way, if you want
> to find your dream I command you to FOLLOW THE
> NATTERJACK TOAD."
> 
> Several Munchkins appeared and started nodding
> vigorously at each other and
> laughing with their hands on their hips (because
> they had attended stage
> school and had been told this is what people do in
> crowd scenes).  They
> began chanting, "Follow the natterjack toad!...
> follow the natterjack toad!"
> slowly building to a fully blown song and dance
> routine:
> 
> [Insert Wizard of Oz filk I don't have time to
> write]
> 
> ***
> 
> Seriously, I don't mind what people do in here, as
> long as they clean up
> after themselves.  I'm more Hagrid (keeper of the
> keys) than Dumbledore
> (bloke in charge with long white beard) on this
> list.
> 
> Randy's idea sounds cool, although I can't really
> join in myself at the
> moment, sadly.  How about I hand my ruby slippers to
> Randy to try to kick
> something off and if you decide to do a chapter by
> chapter thing, I may jump
> in some way down the line.
> 
> Neil
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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From coriolan_cmc at coriolan_cmc2001.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  9 14:52:43 2003
From: coriolan_cmc at coriolan_cmc2001.yahoo.invalid (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 14:52:43 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bjadcd+gt1l@...>
Message-ID: <bjkpfr+s36b@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> Randy said: 
> > > Therefore, I suggest we rewrite Book 5 our way!
> 
> and Jim began:
> > OOH Cool!  Dibs on page 1:
> > 
> > "It was a dark and stormy night..."
> > 
> 
> Hmmm...maybe we should *all* re-write page 1 in the style of 
> another author...
> 

Stately, plump Vernon Dursely came from the stairway, bearing a 
newspaper in which a baggage-handler and a budgie were described. His 
wide purple face, ungallant, was sustained genocidally before him by 
the sultry summer air. He held the remote aloft and intoned: "Glad to 
see the boy's stopped trying to butt in. Where is he, anyway?"

   - CMC




From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  9 20:31:51 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <20030909134933.17116.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <20030909203151.42504.qmail@...>

Hearye Hearye!  Let us bring this meeting to order.  I
would like a vote from those in the old crowd who wish
to participate.  

1. Do you want to do a Book 5 story that is written a
few pages at a time like a story that each successive
person has to continue down a meandering trail?

2.  Do you wish to rewrite Book 5 by taking one
chapter at a time and splitting up the duties amongst
yourselves?  More than one person can work on a single
chapter as long as they collaborate with each other
before their official posting.

3.  Do you want to propose some other method?

Please vote for 1, 2 , or 3.

Here is a chapter list for reference.

ORDER OF THE PHOENIX CHAPTER LIST

Chapter	

1		Dudley Demented
2		A Peck of Owls
3		The Advance Guard
4		Number 12, Grimmauld Place
5		The Order of the Phoenix
6		The Noble & Most Ancient House of Black
7		The Ministry of Magic
8		The Hearing
9		The Woes of Mrs. Weasley
10		Luna Lovegood
11		The Sorting Hats New Song
12		Professor Umbridge
13		Detention with Dolores
14		Percy and Padfoot
15		The Hogwarts High Inquisitor
16		In the Hogs Head
17		Educational Decree Number 24
18		Dumbledores Army
19		The Lion and the Serpent
20		Hargrids Tale
21		The Eye of the Snake
22		St. Mungos Hospital for Magical Maladies &
Injuries
23		Christmas on the Closed Ward
24		Occlumency
25		The Beetle at Bay
26		Seen and Unforeseen
27		The Centaur and the Sneak
28		Snapes Worst Memory
29		Career Advice
30		Grawp
31		O.W.L.s
32		Out of the Fire
33		Fight and Flight
34		The Department of Mysteries
35		Beyond the Veil
36		The Only One He Ever Feared
37		The Lost Prophecy
38		The Second War Begins



--- Randy Estes <estesrandy at ...> wrote:
> The torch has passed to me.  I will do my best to
> organize this.  I dedicate this rewrite to the
> memory
> of Warren Zevon who died this week.  
> 
> Warren wrote songs in a sardonic style that puts
> mine
> to shame.  We shared the same birthday.  I wonder if
> January 24 is the sardonic musician part of the
> Zodiac?  I'm sure Remus Lupin is alone crying
> somewhere thinking about the loss of the author of
> the
> Werewolves of London. BAAAAHOOOOOOOOO!!!
> 
> "I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colata at Trader
> Vicks, and his hair was perfect!"...Warren Zevon
> 
> I will post the chapter titles of Book 5 for those
> who
> are interested to choose from. Collaborating on
> chapters is highly recommended, so groups may choose
> to sign up for a particular chapter.  I only ask
> that
> I may be allowed to write some of the Fred and
> George
> parts of the story since they are my heroes in this
> story.
> 
> This is a very democratic book writing group.  So
> feel
> free to make suggestions about what needs to be
> fixed,
> etc...  The object is to have some fun, and be able
> to
> make a Book 5 that we all love.
> 
> Revive Book Five!
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
> 
> --- Neil Ward <neilward at ...> wrote:
> > Randy said:
> > 
> > << My Trevor tatoo is starting to glow.  I think
> we
> > need to speak to the
> > great and powerful Neil.  Puffs of smoke and
> flames
> > shoot into the air as a
> > giant face appears behind the stage.  Meanwhile a
> > strange man is working a
> > computer monitor behind a curtain.
> > 
> > What is thy bidding?  oh great and powerful Neil?
> >>
> > 
> > ***
> > 
> > The giant face boomed: "Ignore the strange man
> > behind the curtain. He is
> > just looking after the place for his mother.  And,
> > by the way, if you want
> > to find your dream I command you to FOLLOW THE
> > NATTERJACK TOAD."
> > 
> > Several Munchkins appeared and started nodding
> > vigorously at each other and
> > laughing with their hands on their hips (because
> > they had attended stage
> > school and had been told this is what people do in
> > crowd scenes).  They
> > began chanting, "Follow the natterjack toad!...
> > follow the natterjack toad!"
> > slowly building to a fully blown song and dance
> > routine:
> > 
> > [Insert Wizard of Oz filk I don't have time to
> > write]
> > 
> > ***
> > 
> > Seriously, I don't mind what people do in here, as
> > long as they clean up
> > after themselves.  I'm more Hagrid (keeper of the
> > keys) than Dumbledore
> > (bloke in charge with long white beard) on this
> > list.
> > 
> > Randy's idea sounds cool, although I can't really
> > join in myself at the
> > moment, sadly.  How about I hand my ruby slippers
> to
> > Randy to try to kick
> > something off and if you decide to do a chapter by
> > chapter thing, I may jump
> > in some way down the line.
> > 
> > Neil
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> 


__________________________________
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From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep  9 20:29:47 2003
From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:29:47 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
References: <20030909203151.42504.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <00c901c37711$1d6df280$29301c40@...>

I'm torn...one would be easier if I work
alone but I would prefer two but unsure
if anyone will work with me...

Saitaina
****
"Sorry Vig...just seems like I'm about to
come out of a closet I didn't even know I
was in."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on
all this and plow face-first into a tree
because I was looking the wrong bloody
way. And I'll still be having a better
day than I am today."




From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 10 00:53:58 2003
From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:53:58 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
References: <20030909134933.17116.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <094e01c37736$04d8c400$0302a8c0@athena>

>Randy said:

> This is a very democratic book writing group.  So feel
> free to make suggestions about what needs to be fixed,
> etc...  The object is to have some fun, and be able to
> make a Book 5 that we all love.
>
> Revive Book Five!
>
> Randy
>


I'm a bit confused (not an unusual situation) -- is the proposal to actually
"fix" things in Book 5, or to do a parody as a bit of a lark?

If we want to fix book 5, then perhaps we need to do a survey of what people
think was wrong with it.  (Has anyone in Fandom done such a poll yet?)  Here
are some of the things off the top of my head that need fixing:
- Harry acting like a spoiled, intolerable brat for the entire book
- Dumbledore keeping him in the dark all year, making him feel shut out like
at the Dursleys'
- Sirius getting the finger (clearly Harry's fault, IMHO)
- Lack of meaningful character development for Hermione
- Clunky red herrings about who was going to die
- The *lame* climax in the lobby of the MOM (Dumbledore vs Lord V)
- Dumbledore's soppy debriefing at the end of the book (yuck!)

On the other hand, there were some *very* good things in book 5 that deserve
acknowledgement:
- Wandless magic (does this foreshadow Harry the SuperMage?)
- Thestrals
- Umbridge (great baddie!)
- Gred & Forge
- Ron the Qudditch Star
- Centaurs
- Getting to see inside the Ministry and St. Mungos
- The Dept of Mysteries
- Occulumency/Legilimency
- Aurors
- Neville
- Luna Luna Luna!

-Jim




From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 10 02:33:37 2003
From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:33:37 -0000
Subject: Harrius Potter
Message-ID: <bjm2i1+hu9a@...>

I just received my copy of "Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis" 
(Bloomsbury, ISBN 0 7475 6196 6).  Here's a selection:

Dominus et Domina Dursley, qui vivebant in aedibus Gestationis 
Ligustrorum numero quattuor signatis, non sine superbia dicebant se 
ratione ordinaria vivendi uti neque se paenitere illius rationis...

How cool is that?!

-Jim




From john at queerasjohn.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 10 02:37:40 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.yahoo.invalid (Queer as John)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 22:37:40 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Harrius Potter
In-Reply-To: <bjm2i1+hu9a@...>
Message-ID: <BB8406B4.1266A%john@...>

Jim Flanagan said:

> Dominus et Domina Dursley, qui vivebant in aedibus Gestationis
> Ligustrorum numero quattuor signatis, non sine superbia dicebant se
> ratione ordinaria vivendi uti neque se paenitere illius rationis...
> 
> How cool is that?!

Incredibly! I was in Barnes & Noble with a bunch of fandom people a week or
so ago and we spotted it. I was enthralled and kept quoting bits of it...

--J

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at ...

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to
heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's
just that they need more supervision.  --Lynn Lavner
______________________________________




From coriolan_cmc at coriolan_cmc2001.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 10 04:40:27 2003
From: coriolan_cmc at coriolan_cmc2001.yahoo.invalid (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 04:40:27 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bjkpfr+s36b@...>
Message-ID: <bjm9vr+ks5l@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" 
<coriolan_cmc at h...> wrote:

> > 
> 
> Stately, plump Vernon Dursely came from the stairway, bearing a 
> newspaper in which a baggage-handler and a budgie were described. 
His 
> wide purple face, ungallant, was sustained genocidally before him 
by 
> the sultry summer air. He held the remote aloft and intoned: "Glad 
to 
> see the boy's stopped trying to butt in. Where is he, anyway?"
> 

And by the same author:

privetrun, past figg and dungy's, from swerve of owl to dementors' 
day, bring us by a grimmauldius bulstrode of Rictusempra back to 
Hogth Castle and environs....

  - CMC (summing up chap 1-11)






From kippesp at kippesp.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 10 06:31:35 2003
From: kippesp at kippesp.yahoo.invalid (kippesp)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:31:35 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <094e01c37736$04d8c400$0302a8c0@athena>
Message-ID: <bjmgg7+phli@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" 
> I'm a bit confused (not an unusual situation) -- is the proposal 
to actually
> "fix" things in Book 5, or to do a parody as a bit of a lark?

I'm also confused on this.  How much would be changed?  Could Tonks 
become Sirius's significant other rather than cousin?  Could Sirius 
not be an idiot and inform Harry about the mirror when floos to the 
kitchen?

Expanding the DA would be good.  By far my favorite parts of the 
book.





From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 10 11:15:40 2003
From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:15:40 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bjm9vr+ks5l@...>
Message-ID: <bjn14s+9ilj@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote:

> And by the same author:
> 
> privetrun, past figg and dungy's, from swerve of owl to dementors' 
> day, bring us by a grimmauldius bulstrode of Rictusempra back to 
> Hogth Castle and environs....


Hmmm. Let me guess -- James Joyce?

-Jim




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 10 13:33:03 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:33:03 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <00c901c37711$1d6df280$29301c40@...>
Message-ID: <bjn96f+qbe2@...>

Oh, don't fret, sweetie.  I'll work with you.  I wouldn't be able to 
do something alone right now with all of the stuff I've taken on, 
but working with someone else I could do.  I think it would be fun 
to stick to the text as much as possible, but show some things  from 
others' points of view, add funny footnotes a la Pratchett (which is 
what I think SHE was doing in the schoolbooks, especially with the 
Uric footnotes), or include repeated warnings and ominous spoilers 
right in the text, like Lemony Snicket. ("If you're looking for 
Harry to have a happy ending in this book, stop reading right now, 
especially if you like his godfather...") Or all of the above, just 
to be pleasantly chaotic. ;)

--Barb


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> 
wrote:
> I'm torn...one would be easier if I work
> alone but I would prefer two but unsure
> if anyone will work with me...
> 
> Saitaina
> ****
> "Sorry Vig...just seems like I'm about to
> come out of a closet I didn't even know I
> was in."
> 
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina
> 
> "No, one day I'm going to look back on
> all this and plow face-first into a tree
> because I was looking the wrong bloody
> way. And I'll still be having a better
> day than I am today."




From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep 11 00:54:39 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bjmgg7+phli@...>
Message-ID: <20030911005439.56764.qmail@...>

Well it appears I actually got somebody's attention
for a few seconds!  I haven't seen this many posts in
one day since early July!

Don't be confused or worried.  I tend to write parody
material but I don't think everyone else has to do it.
 My sections would tend to be written that way, but if
we divide up the book, others can elaborate on their
ships or kill off other bothersome characters.  Still
other people can bring back those characters if they
want.  

I think having fun is the key but being funny is not
required!

I personally could not care less which boy and girl
end up together, but others obviously invest a lot of
their time thinking about it.  I would gravitate to
dialog between Ron and Harry or Fred and George.  I
might tend to want to kill off Dobby because he
reminds me of Jar Jar Binks!  But I realize he might
be key to the story, so I might bring him back.

I guess what I see here is a bunch of people who crave
structure! Sooooooo! I guess that rules out writing
one or two pages at a time.  We should probably divide
up the chapters or we could create our own outline and
divide up the pieces with names assigned on this list.

Perhaps the best way to start is the method you have
already used.  Let's have people list the things they
liked about Book 5 and a list of what they hated about
it.  This would pinpoint the sections that people are
interested in writing about "or fixing" as I like to
call it.  Like everyone of my engineering professors
would say:" There is more than one way to solve every
problem, not just one solution!"  

Why doesn't everyone spend this week putting together
their list of likes and dislikes and turn them in by
Monday night!  You can also mention the section you
think you want to work on.  My guess is that not
everyone will get their favorite part unless they are
willing to share the job with someone else.

Does everyone understand their assignment?  Now pick
up your #2 pencils and begin!

Randy

--- kippesp <kippesp at ...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Flanagan"
> 
> > I'm a bit confused (not an unusual situation) --
> is the proposal 
> to actually
> > "fix" things in Book 5, or to do a parody as a bit
> of a lark?
> 
> I'm also confused on this.  How much would be
> changed?  Could Tonks 
> become Sirius's significant other rather than
> cousin?  Could Sirius 
> not be an idiot and inform Harry about the mirror
> when floos to the 
> kitchen?
> 
> Expanding the DA would be good.  By far my favorite
> parts of the 
> book.
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 14 14:30:36 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP PAGE ONE IDEA
In-Reply-To: <20030911005439.56764.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <20030914143036.74381.qmail@...>

The incredibly loud silence on this list over the last
4 days does not bode well for this activity.  Here is
a silly start that I came up with that allows parody
of the book as well as the possibility of a serious
rewrite at the same time.

Have a look and tear it apart.  I humbly submit my
silly entry.

The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a
close and a dismal silence lay over the large, oblong
houses of Public Drive.  Harry Potter lay on his bed
finishing the next to last chapter of the fifth book
in his once favorite book series.  This fifth book,
Trevor Longbottom and the Organization of the
Platypus was by far the most unsatisfying of the
series.  The author, U.R. Howling, had not lived up to
his expectations in this book, and he had the audacity
to kill off one of his favorite characters, Silliness
Brown.  Of course, Trevor had prevailed once again to
the dismay of the Undersecretary to the Magistrate of
Mystics, Supercilious Pudding.  Professor Mumblemore
had helped Trevor defeat Lord Moldywart, but Trevor
was not a tadpole any longer and his emotions exploded
onto the walls of Mumblemores office leaving a slimy
residue that would take weeks to remove.

Harry was wondering when he would have his next
conversation with his school pals, Ron and Hermione to
discuss the outcome of the fifth book.  He knew
Hermione would be furious with the death of Silliness
Brown.  Ron would also probably dislike the final
outcome of the book, but he thought Ron might enjoy
the Cabbage Match between Lionsdorm and Sneakygents. 
The emergence of Winny Beasly during the other Cabbage
matches was probably exciting to Ron as well.  Ron had
written a letter earlier in the summer mentioning that
he had been able to actually play indoor Cabbage at
the Nimbus 2003 convention in Orlando.  What a thrill
to meet all of those other Trevor Longbottom fans at
the Disney resorts!  If only he had been allowed to
attend as well.


--- Randy Estes <estesrandy at ...> wrote:
> > > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 14 17:52:04 2003
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:52:04 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP PAGE ONE IDEA
In-Reply-To: <20030914143036.74381.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <bk29s4+24n0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes <estesrandy at y...> wrote:
> The incredibly loud silence on this list over the last
> 4 days does not bode well for this activity. 

I feel guilty for not being part of the enthusiasm that first greeted
your idea, but to REWRITING OoP is WRITING which is WORK, and if I had
the TIME, I would use it to Work on my own fanfic that's hanging out
on Schnoogle unfinished.

I don't think I was part of the wide-spread expression of
disappointment with OoP, other than that JKR made the Bones who had
been killed be Susan Bones' uncle, aunt, and cousins, rather than her
grandparents as had been stated in an interview: more proof that 
Canon Can Change, to go along with the correction of the Priori
Incantati sequence, and (according to hearsay) changing later
printings of PS/SS to say that Marcus Flint was a FIFTH-year. I had a
more complicated and private feeling, in which I was glad that She 
had (responded to fannish interest and) filled in backstory on the
original Order, the Bones, MacKinnons, and Prewetts who had been
killed, Neville's mother's name (and that she was an Auror as had not
been stated in GoF), and at the same time, disappointment that this
information so totally contradicted the backstory I had made up... 
But at least I was happy that She hadn't contradicted Sirius/Remus
ship... 

So what is it I would want to put in MY OoP? Adult ships? Harry
playing Quidditch? Voldemort's attacks beginning during the summer 
and reaching Reign of Terror levels early in the book? 

[Here I express appreciations of your parody rewrites, such as the
reference to Quidditch/Cabbage at Orlando over the summer.]





From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 15 02:20:44 2003
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:20:44 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
References: <20030911005439.56764.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <010501c37b2f$f829e380$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

Hi --

Gee, everyone seems to have fallen silent in light of Randy's request that we actually come up with what we liked about OoP and, more importantly, what we *didn't* like!  <g>  I see Randy has commented on just this!

It's funny -----> my list would vary fairly considerably from Jim's most excellent list of likes and dislikes.  The rewrite venture may spark lots of heated discussions!  

Okay, so ...... my list.  I must confess that details about plot points and specific scenes are only through the first 1/3 of the book, because that's all I had time to skim.  I'll try to post an updated list later, but this will hit the high points.

What I loved/liked:

** HERMIONE ---------- Hermione really has a chance to shine in this one, IMHO, and she makes the most of it.  Pippin earlier commented that for many readers (or maybe it was her own personal feeling alone?), there should be more to Hermione than books and House Elves.  I've thought about that alot lately actually, and I'm left with a question: like what?  What else *ought* there to be about Hermione?  What would make her a more fully-developed character in your mind?  To my mind, having her brains and her social consciousness (even if her methodology isn't yet perfected), is way more than enough.  Boys?  She's still snagged the best date yet in the series!  Seriously, she's shown interest in boys, and she's obviously got *some* amount of emotional maturity/depth (since she came up with very complicated explanations of Cho's feelings, etc.).  Other female friends?  Well, I wasn't willing to give it much credence based on GoF alone, but it does appear that there's more than just a passing friendship between Hermione and Ginny.  She also obviously talks to her female roommates more now, since we see she had a small 'chat" with Lavender about Harry early-on in the school term.  

So, color me baffled.  But, er........what's not to like?  What's not to love?  She has faults to be sure, but I assume we don't want Hermione to be *perfect* (and, yes, I know there are some readers who believe she was in fact *too* perfect in OoP).  Well, enough of that, the rest of my list won't be accompanied by so much verbiage.  <g>

** HARRY -- Yes, every bit of his anger and self-pity was endearing to me.  

** Harry and Hermione as a team (well, you knew I had to mention it, right?!)

** McGonagall -- she rocks.  One of my favorite OoP scenes is Harry's career counseling with McGonagall!

** Umbridge (a baddy we love to hate as Jim said) ---->  By the same token, I was really intrigued by the detention scenes. I think that was a bit of a gutsy move on Rowling's part, and I know a good many readers would rather she have not gone that route, but I thought it added considerable depth.

** Neville!!

** Dean Thomas (and a 3-dimensional Seamus!).  Oh, and Ernie Macmillan!  Loved Ernie.  Loved him.

** Harry's Snake PoV in the attack on Mr. Weasley

** Luna 

** Dementor attacks on Privet Drive ...... that was unexpected!

** Harry's taunting of Dudley and Dudley's stabs about Harry's nightmares ----- I thought this was a great way to communicate how scarred Harry remains by Voldemort's resurrection.  And, I think the whole interchange brings more depth to Harry's relations with the Dursleys.  He's showing that he doesn't always play fair himself for one thing.

** the Prefect Badge scene --- oh how I love that one.

**   We don't see much Lupin, but I liked what we did get.

** Hermione's completely lacklustre reaction to Ron's romantic Christmas gift of perfume.  Bwahahahaha!

** the Black family background........what a great way to communicate a good deal of backstory

** the Occlumency sessions with Snape (and the Snape pensieve scene!).  James is complex!  Yay!  And Lily looks very, very interesting.  

WHAT I HATED/DISLIKED/or WOULD CHANGE:

** Molly Weasley ----> unequivocally top of my hated list.  Bleh.  I absolutely detest this character.  

** Sirius is ......sob!........DEAD!!!!!!!!!!  How *could* she???????!

** "And you, Harry ---"  No dashes please, Ms. Rowling.  You will only foster tortured lengthy grammar debates amongst the fans for the next 3 bloody years about whether the dash means that she kissed Harry too or didn't.  I would change that scene to be more specific that she *did* kiss Harry too.  <eg>

** Percy!!  What has happened to my Percy?  And we don't even get a red-herring about him maybe under Imperius or some other *reasonable* explanation for his behavior!  As founding member of PINE, I am sorely, sorely disappointed by this, and well, I'm just not satisfied at all.  I hope there is a very good explanation forthcoming!

** Ginny's development communicated through other people, rather than through direct interactions with Harry.  We need to find out that Ginny's become a good Quidditch player by stealing the boys' brooms all this time?  Okay, well show us a conversation between Harry and Ginny.  Cough.  *Especially* if you intend the fair red-headed girl to be the love interest of the Hero in the final analysis.  Cough turns into choking cough. 

** Hagrid.  I'm completely bored in the chapter about his mission to the giants.  Of course, on the bright side, he's missing for a good bit of the book really.  I'm just not getting much out of his character at this point.  

** I thought the Fred & George leave Hogwarts scene was over-written (and thus over-rated), but I'm probably in the minority on that one.

** Ron as Quidditch star and prefect ...... on the one hand, I'm glad that he gets to have these honors because his self-confidence has been so sorely in need of a boost for a very long time, but on the other hand, I disliked Rowling's treatment of these issues with Ron.  It smacks of "tokenism" for lack of a better term.  It seemed more thrown in as a sop than anything else.  I'd rather have seen more development of those issues in a direct way.  Ron, IMHO, continues to get the least development of any of the Trio.  

That's all I can think of at this point, though, like I said, I do plan to continue going through the book slowly and making some notes about things I liked or disliked.  I liked far more than I disliked overall and certainly my likes outnumber my dislikes in the first 1/3 of the book.  This is my favorite book in the series actually.

Penny 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 15 02:47:45 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:47:45 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <010501c37b2f$f829e380$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <bk398h+mb2r@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
 > ** Percy!!  What has happened to my Percy?  And we don't even get 
a red-herring about him maybe under Imperius or some other 
*reasonable* explanation for his behavior!  As founding member of 
PINE, I am sorely, sorely disappointed by this, and well, I'm just 
not satisfied at all.  I hope there is a very good explanation 
forthcoming!

Oh, Penny!  Don't despair of our Percy!  (::waves the PINE flag::)  
I have an elaborate theory about how the letter Percy wrote to Ron 
AND the quotes from him in the Prophet the next day are a very clear 
indication that Percy is a spy, and that at least one of his parents 
knows it.  I think Molly knows at the very least, based upon one of 
her boggart visions being a dead Percy, although I think Arthur is 
probably also in on it.  They have to do their best not to blow his 
cover, so I doubt that many other people know (apart from 
Dumbledore, who knows everything, after all).  The possibility that 
they were angry with him volunteering to do something so dangerous 
probably accounts for their ability to maintain a believability in 
their anger-toward-Percy acts.  (They might really have been upset 
that he did this, perhaps without first consulting them.)

The letter to Ron was clearly sent at night so that no one else in 
the school would see him getting it, and possibly also because he's 
aware of owls being intercepted when they're timed to come at 
breakfast, the usual owl post time of day.  (Percy may even be 
someone authorized by Fudge to oversee the interception of the owls, 
which is probably why he would know how to avoid this.)  And just in 
case it WAS intercepted, his warnings to Ron about a number of 
things are couched in language that is designed to allow him to keep 
his cover while telling Ron a lot of things the Ministry would 
probably rather he not know.  His quotes in the Prophet also sound 
like things that are properly 'loyal,' but at the same time, he's 
giving away a load of information about inside activities at the 
Ministry.  And Fudge and Umbridge are stupid enough that all they 
see is a bowing and scraping toady, rather than someone blabbing to 
the world about a lot of things that should probably be kept hush-
hush.

Percy is not evil!  He is a brave and daring spy in the Ministry, 
keeping an ear out for signs that his family members or the members 
of the Order may be in danger and leaking information to his family 
and others--and to the general wizarding public, through the 
Prophet.  Whether this role of his will change now that the Ministry 
is acknowledging Voldemort's return remains to be seen, but in my 
book (UK copy of OotP, that is <g>) he was never and will never be 
evil. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

--Barb, who should probably volunteer to do something about this for 
the HPFGU FAQ




From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 15 04:32:50 2003
From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:32:50 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bk398h+mb2r@...>
Message-ID: <000b01c37b42$6c79b780$f000a8c0@castle>

 




--Barb, who should probably volunteer to do something about this for 
the HPFGU FAQ 
 
How about doing something about this for the Lexicon instead?
 
Steve 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 15 12:20:46 2003
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:20:46 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
References: <000b01c37b42$6c79b780$f000a8c0@castle>
Message-ID: <015101c37b83$ccee5710$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

Hi --

Oh, Barb, *thank you*!  I'm soooooo relieved.  <g>

<<<<<<<--Barb, who should probably volunteer to do something about this for 
the HPFGU FAQ 

How about doing something about this for the Lexicon instead?>>>>>>>

How about for both places, as the HPfGU FAQ would be the Weasley Family FAQ with lots of other info besides.  

Penny
(proudly waving the PINE banner again.........)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 15 13:06:16 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:06:16 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <000b01c37b42$6c79b780$f000a8c0@castle>
Message-ID: <bk4dg8+slqj@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" 
<vderark at b...> wrote:
>  
> --Barb, who should probably volunteer to do something about this 
for 
> the HPFGU FAQ 
>  
> How about doing something about this for the Lexicon instead?
>  
> Steve 
> 

That would also work.  I'm still making copious notes on my OotP 
reread, and I'm writing down all of the additional evidence that I'm 
finding to support my theory.

--Barb





From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 15 14:50:00 2003
From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:50:00 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bk4dg8+slqj@...>
Message-ID: <000001c37b98$a72b63f0$1901a8c0@castle>

Now if we could just find a theory that redeems Bitchy!Molly and
IdioticBeyondBelief!Hagrid. 
 
Steve


> 

That would also work.  I'm still making copious notes on my OotP 
reread, and I'm writing down all of the additional evidence that I'm 
finding to support my theory.

--Barb





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 15 15:59:20 2003
From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:59:20 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <000001c37b98$a72b63f0$1901a8c0@castle>
Message-ID: <bk4nko+8pbd@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" 
<vderark at b...> wrote:
> Now if we could just find a theory that redeems Bitchy!Molly and
> IdioticBeyondBelief!Hagrid. 
>  

Well, it's not really *redemption* but it does, IMHO, give a more 
fitting end to chapter 35 than the one JKR created: 
http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8NNlPyDLhKsxxEBsT_ijdSvXIkpLwARiUGH2S7gn
uB6ujFygj2uXrvRqYrk12qLh7dw_CwgiydX1jPHCOXZmKcDcqpI/RevisedOotP.doc

Enjoy!




From the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com  Mon Sep 15 18:55:09 2003
From: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com (the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 15 Sep 2003 18:55:09 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to the_old_crowd 
Message-ID: <1063652109.2171.27425.w51@yahoogroups.com>


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the the_old_crowd 
group.

  File        : /OotPRevised.doc 
  Uploaded by : heiditandy <heidit at ...> 
  Description : Pages 805-807 (revised) 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/files/OotPRevised.doc 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

heiditandy <heidit at ...>
 







From witchwanda2002 at witchwanda2002.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 16 01:42:06 2003
From: witchwanda2002 at witchwanda2002.yahoo.invalid (Wanda the *B*Witch)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:42:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Very OT- Hurricane Isabelle
Message-ID: <20030916014206.33799.qmail@...>

Praying for everybody's safety down south! Keep everyone informed of your safety. Will be worrying about online friends in harm's way.This is a monster about to strike, be careful.
 
Wanda the *B*Witch and Her Muggles 100%- All praying and worrying for those in harm's way 


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 16 14:14:33 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:14:33 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <000001c37b98$a72b63f0$1901a8c0@castle>
Message-ID: <bk75s9+606e@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" 
<vderark at b...> wrote:
> Now if we could just find a theory that redeems Bitchy!Molly and
> IdioticBeyondBelief!Hagrid. 
>  

Hey, maybe it's her time of life. <g>  But as for Hagrid, I am 
pleased to announce the formation of HIND (Hagrid Is Not 
Dumb). 

Grawp, unlike Norbert, Aragog, Buckbeak or the Skrewts, is a 
Being. "any creature that has sufficient intelligence to understand 
the laws of the magical community and to bear part of the 
responsibility in shaping those laws." Even the Death Eaters 
acknowledge that Giants are capable of reason; you don't 
negotiate with beasts.

  Grawp's situation is comparable to that of the young  Helen 
Keller. He is capable of reason but unaware of what is 
considered civilized behavior and has no means of 
communication other than  violence. He is not a monster, except 
that he's been treated as one.

Why should  Grawp be considered less worthy of Harry's help 
than Buckbeak?  Is it the same reason that  clever handsome 
Sirius, who told Harry to judge a man by how he treats his 
inferiors, is thought more worthy to survive than guileless, ugly 
Hagrid, who doesn't think anyone has to be ashamed of what 
they are?

Pippin
HIND badges, two sickles each

Oh, and a word about Percy...how do we know that Arthur didn't 
tell him he wasn't wanted at the hospital?




From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 16 17:34:52 2003
From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (heiditandy)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:34:52 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bk75s9+606e@...>
Message-ID: <bk7hjs+b9gi@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
> Grawp, unlike Norbert, Aragog, Buckbeak or the Skrewts, is a 
> Being. "any creature that has sufficient intelligence to 
understand 
> the laws of the magical community and to bear part of the 
> responsibility in shaping those laws." Even the Death Eaters 
> acknowledge that Giants are capable of reason; you don't 
> negotiate with beasts.
> 
>   Grawp's situation is comparable to that of the young  Helen 
> Keller. He is capable of reason but unaware of what is 
> considered civilized behavior and has no means of 
> communication other than  violence. He is not a monster, except 
> that he's been treated as one.
> 
> Why should  Grawp be considered less worthy of Harry's help 
> than Buckbeak?  
I don't think that "less worthy" plays into this at all, and I'm not 
sure how or why you jump from Steve's comment, and possibly my 
agreement, that Hagrid behaves less than sensibly in parts of OotP 
to theorizing that Grawp isn't worthy to live. 

It's just that Hagrid didn't handle things as sensibly as he could 
have, regarding Grawp. 

I admit, I may be misremembering the book here, but I did just 
listen to the bit of OotP when Firenze told Harry to tell Hagrid 
that his attempt was not working, and I don't think that Hagrid had 
spoken with Dumbledore before bringing Grawp back to the forest 
either. I'm not suggesting that Hagrid, or anyone else, should've 
tried to *kill* Grawp, and I am sure that JKR will have some use for 
the giant later in the series, and that's why he had to be in the 
forest, but had Hagrid been more sensible, he could have organized 
things better. 

There is a very big difference between "dead" and "located 
elsewhere" and I think you're skimming over it in the leap you made 
in your last post. 

> Is it the same reason that  clever handsome 
> Sirius, who told Harry to judge a man by how he treats his 
> inferiors, is thought more worthy to survive than guileless, ugly 
> Hagrid, who doesn't think anyone has to be ashamed of what 
> they are?

Wha? Huh? Are you trying to say that my post yesterday, and 
ancillary fic, were created out of some sort of presumption that 
Sirius is more worthy to live than Hagrid? 

Excuse me? Now, that is a rather enormous leap. 

I played with the story and gave it the resolution I did because I 
wanted to still include a death that *would* be devestating to Harry 
in the moment - I don't think he would've been quite as hysterical 
if, say, Moody or Tonks had died, and it's not like Molly was 
*there* at the time - but would have had less reprucussions on his 
future. 

Through the first half of OotP, he misses Hagrid when he's not 
there, but he has no desperation to connect with Hagrid, other than 
a concern for his general well-being. Hagrid is a friend, to be 
sure, but Harry doesn't cling to him in the same visceral and 
desperate way that he attaches himself to Sirius - he didn't even do 
so during Book One, when Hagrid played the role of his saviour from 
the Dursleys. 

I didn't revise it so Hagrid would be dead because he's ugly, or 
because he's guileless, or for any reason OTHER than the fact that I 
happen to think that his presence is not as useful to Harry, going 
forward, as Sirius' would've been. And I mean useful in the 
emotional sense.




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 16 18:53:27 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:53:27 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bk7hjs+b9gi@...>
Message-ID: <bk7m77+thpq@...>

Pippin wrote:
> > Sirius, who told Harry to judge a man by how he treats his 
> > inferiors, 

Prophetic words from Sirius, when you think about it.  Harry should 
indeed have paid attention to the way Sirius treated Kreacher--not 
to mention the fact that Sirius sorts people in categories with 
names like 'inferiors.'  Although Sirius was a somewhat sympathetic 
character at the time he said this, in GoF, a closer examination of 
what he said makes him seem far LESS sympathetic.  And more than a 
little hypocritical, once we see him interacting with Kreacher.

Heidi:

> I played with the story and gave it the resolution I did because I 
> wanted to still include a death that *would* be devestating to 
> Harry in the moment - I don't think he would've been quite as 
> hysterical if, say, Moody or Tonks had died, and it's not like 
> Molly was *there* at the time - but would have had less 
> reprucussions on his future. 
> 
> Through the first half of OotP, he misses Hagrid when he's not 
> there, but he has no desperation to connect with Hagrid, other 
> than a concern for his general well-being. Hagrid is a friend, to 
> be sure, but Harry doesn't cling to him in the same visceral and 
> desperate way that he attaches himself to Sirius - he didn't even 
> do so during Book One, when Hagrid played the role of his saviour 
> from the Dursleys. 

Hagrid is another interesting Sirius doppelganger, like Harry 
himself.  Both were falsely accused of having done something that 
ended in death for someone (Hagrid and Aragog being blamed for 
Myrtle's death) which in turn resulted in each of them not being 
allowed to do magic and having their emotional growth somewhat 
stunted, since Hagrid was no longer a student and therefore no 
longer interacting with his peers, just as, emotionally, Sirius is 
probably still in his early twenties, rather than mid-thirties.
Both of them were also in Azkaban for something they didn't do 
(although Hagrid came back before the end of CoS).  

Sirius and Hagrid have both been parent-figures for Harry, although, 
interestingly enough, I think Hagrid's relationship to him is more 
motherly and Sirius' more fatherly.  Hagrid baked for Harry and 
provided a comforting womb-like refuge for him--a home away from 
Gryffindor Tower; when he invites Ron and Hermione there, it's like 
he's bringing his friends home to meet his mum, and when Malfoy 
insults Hagrid early in the first book, it's like he's INSULTING 
Harry's mum.  (Which means it's hardly unsurprising that he doesn't 
take well to Malfoy.)  Also, when Hagrid delivered Harry to Surrey 
(a childbirth metaphor, I believe) he behaved a bit like a mother 
who'd just given birth being forced to give up her baby for 
adoption.  

Both Hagrid and Sirius, oddly, were lacking in the mother department 
(a murderous giantess seems about equivalent to Mrs. Black, IMO), 
and Sirius made a big point of saying that it was James' MOTHER who 
welcomed him into the Potter home, not James' father. (When Sirius 
moved out, he was looking for a new mum.)  

I think this may show that Harry's search for a mother may soon move 
to the fore of the series and become more important than his 
previous search for a father--and the fact that JKR is slowly 
leaking information to us about Lily and her sister, and 
simultaneously depicting James as a fallible human plays into all of 
that.  It also brings us back to the fact that Lily is the real hero 
of the first fall of Voldemort--her sacrifice saved Harry and 
defeated the Great Dark Wizard.

I think OotP represents a change both in Harry's attitude toward 
Sirius and toward Hagrid--they sort of switch places.  Pre-OotP, 
Hagrid was in fact more important to Harry than one would believe 
from reading OotP.  Harry was somewhat disconnected from Sirius by 
necessity, first by dint of believing that Sirius had betrayed his 
parents, then because Sirius was still on the run and they really 
couldn't spend much time together.  

Harry's going back and forth (in OotP) on which parent figure is 
more important to him feels very much like a real teenager waffling 
on whether his mother or father is 'cooler.'  It is a time in life 
when a child is likely to 'choose' one parent over the other, which 
inevitably results in a good deal of pain for the rejected parent.  
This is another reason why Hagrid struck me as more 'motherly' than 
Sirius--and his taking care of his 'little' brother also contributes 
to that motherly image.  In a way, Sirius and Hagrid were also 
partners (dad and mum) in Harry's metaphorical rebirth as a Muggle 
(his delivery to Surrey) since Sirius provided the motorcycle and 
Hagrid actually got Harry there.
 
> I didn't revise it so Hagrid would be dead because he's ugly, or 
> because he's guileless, or for any reason OTHER than the fact that 
> I happen to think that his presence is not as useful to Harry, 
> going forward, as Sirius' would've been. And I mean useful in the 
> emotional sense.

I think that the reason why I assumed, pre-OotP, that Hagrid would 
be the one to die was because that switch between him and Sirius had 
not yet taken place.  Hagrid was formerly important enough to Harry 
that his death could have impacted him the same way that Sirius' did 
in OotP--and I had already decided that a death like that would 
eventually show up in the series, after reading GoF.  Cedric's death 
simply seemed like a warm-up and far greater grief for Harry seemed 
inevitable.  

However, you'd really have to re-write the entire book, I believe, 
to negate that switch and make it plausible for Hagrid to stay in 
that role, rather than just re-writing one tiny part.  It just 
doesn't ring true, I think, when you consider everything else in 
OotP, plus the additional information we're given about Hagrid's 
near-invulnerability.  Pre-OotP, we also didn't know about that, and 
Hagrid-as-victim seemed far more plausible as a result.

The story has become almost Oedipal, without the sexuality being 
literal (as it never is with JKR).  James, Harry's literal father, 
had already died, and in OotP he died for Harry again when the 
perfect, noble father was revealed to be something of a bully.  His 
substitute father, Sirius, died literally, but in truth that death 
(to Harry) had begun metaphorically very close to the start of the 
book when Harry had the opportunity to spend more time with Sirius 
and find out that he was also not perfect, that he did not always 
agree with Sirius and that sometimes he was annoyed by him and found 
him hypocritical.  This is a classic relationship between a father 
and teenage son before the son decides that he needs to break away 
from his father's influence to mature and become his own man--
especially a father displaying so many undesirable traits that will 
only hinder the boy in fulfilling his destiny.

Only by breaking away from ALL of his fathers can Harry embrace the 
legacy of his mother and defeat Voldemort, I believe.  It's possible 
that JKR didn't have to kill Sirius literally--it could have 
continued to be metaphorical.  But she didn't choose metaphor this 
time--unless you believe, as I do, that Sirius' death represents the 
parts of Harry that are similar to Sirius dying (of necessity) and 
that, afterward, the new Harry will be reborn from Sirius' ashes.  
(There are phoenix metaphors all through OotP.)  

Hagrid, OTOH, is for me an inadequate substitute for the dead father-
figure.  He has many similarities to Sirius but is far too 
motherly.  IMO, after OotP, being one (metaphorically) with his 
mother has become Harry's goal, and will ultimately prove to be the 
path to Voldemort's destruction.  His mother's love saved him and 
love has already provided Harry with a very powerful weapon against 
Voldemort, one which he cannot understand or fight.  I expect mother 
figures--including Hagrid, Petunia, and Mrs. Weasley--and mother-
love to be of utmost importance in the concluding books of the 
series.

--Barb





From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 16 21:34:35 2003
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:34:35 -0000
Subject: Very OT- Hurricane Isabelle
In-Reply-To: <20030916014206.33799.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <bk7vlb+3pcr@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Wanda the *B*Witch 
<witchwanda2002 at y...> wrote:
> Praying for everybody's safety down south! Keep everyone informed 
of your safety. Will be worrying about online friends in harm's 
way.This is a monster about to strike, be careful.
>  
> Wanda the *B*Witch and Her Muggles 100%- All praying and worrying 
for those in harm's way 


Thanks, Wanda!  It looks like we in SC,GA, & FL are pretty much out 
of harm's way. We may feel some breezes from it, but they're 
expecting it to hit somewhere around the Outer Banks.  It's also been 
downgraded to a Category 3, right now, & they expect it to lose more 
strength, down to a Category 2.  

Parker, *still* trying to understand the 'Hurricane Party' mentality




From jkusalavagemd at jkusalavagemd.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 16 22:27:31 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at jkusalavagemd.yahoo.invalid (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:27:31 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bk7m77+thpq@...>
Message-ID: <bk82oj+60h4@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent"
<psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
 
> Sirius and Hagrid have both been parent-figures for Harry, although, 
> interestingly enough, I think Hagrid's relationship to him is more 
> motherly and Sirius' more fatherly.  Hagrid baked for Harry and 
> provided a comforting womb-like refuge for him--a home away from 
> Gryffindor Tower; when he invites Ron and Hermione there, it's like 
> he's bringing his friends home to meet his mum, and when Malfoy 
> insults Hagrid early in the first book, it's like he's INSULTING 
> Harry's mum.  (Which means it's hardly unsurprising that he doesn't 
> take well to Malfoy.)  Also, when Hagrid delivered Harry to Surrey 
> (a childbirth metaphor, I believe) he behaved a bit like a mother 
> who'd just given birth being forced to give up her baby for 
> adoption.  

ME:
There is perhaps nobody who is fonder of the character Hagrid than I
(as witness my screen name).  I think his loss would have proved
eqqually as devastating to Harry, though Harry would have dealt with
it as well as he has/will with the loss of Sirius.  I question your
assigning him a particularly maternal role, in contradisinction to
Sirius's paternal role.  It seems artificial.  First, who is to say
which roles are maternal?  In the mystery genre, Spenser (written by
Robert Parker) is a most virile "manly" man, and because he was raisd
by his uncles in a unisex household, has learned to cook well and to
love it.  Hagrid's protective measures for Harry can be described as
paternal, but also maternal in the way a mother linoness fights to
defend her cubs from an attack by hyenas.  I think that you can make a
case that Hagrid fills a major "parental" role for Harry.  The first
loving family he has known in ten years-- and it is indeed familial in
character.

I find your comment below about search for mother interesting, because
I noted Harry's very powerful reaction to Molly's calling herseld as
good as a mother to him.  This is a new note not heard before in
canon, and dovetails nicly with the increased attention to Lily.
> 
> I think this may show that Harry's search for a mother may soon move 
> to the fore of the series and become more important than his 
> previous search for a father--and the fact that JKR is slowly 
> leaking information to us about Lily and her sister, and 
> simultaneously depicting James as a fallible human plays into all of 
> that.  It also brings us back to the fact that Lily is the real hero 
> of the first fall of Voldemort--her sacrifice saved Harry and 
> defeated the Great Dark Wizard.
>

ME:
Here is where I think you hit thw nail on the head.  OoP represented a
switch in importance for Sirius and Hagrid.  But Sirius's position is
now frozen, because of his demise.  Even though she has left herself
an "out" with the Veil and the Archway, everything JKR has said about
the sries, and abut the death of a major character leads me to believe
she would not resort to one of these cheap measures to soften the loss
of Sirius, or to have it both ways.  So the death of Sirius, IMO,
moots any choice of which parental figure Harry loves best.

> I think OotP represents a change both in Harry's attitude toward 
> Sirius and toward Hagrid--they sort of switch places.  Pre-OotP, 
> Hagrid was in fact more important to Harry than one would believe 
> from reading OotP.  Harry was somewhat disconnected from Sirius by 
> necessity, first by dint of believing that Sirius had betrayed his 
> parents, then because Sirius was still on the run and they really 
> couldn't spend much time together.  
> 
> Harry's going back and forth (in OotP) on which parent figure is 
> more important to him feels very much like a real teenager waffling 
> on whether his mother or father is 'cooler.'  It is a time in life 
> when a child is likely to 'choose' one parent over the other, which 
> inevitably results in a good deal of pain for the rejected parent.  
> This is another reason why Hagrid struck me as more 'motherly' than 
> Sirius--and his taking care of his 'little' brother also contributes 
> to that motherly image.  In a way, Sirius and Hagrid were also 
> partners (dad and mum) in Harry's metaphorical rebirth as a Muggle 
> (his delivery to Surrey) since Sirius provided the motorcycle and 
> Hagrid actually got Harry there.
>  
> > I didn't revise it so Hagrid would be dead because he's ugly, or 
> > because he's guileless, or for any reason OTHER than the fact that 
> > I happen to think that his presence is not as useful to Harry, 
> > going forward, as Sirius' would've been. And I mean useful in the 
> > emotional sense.
> 

> 
> The story has become almost Oedipal, without the sexuality being 
> literal (as it never is with JKR).  James, Harry's literal father, 
> had already died, and in OotP he died for Harry again when the 
> perfect, noble father was revealed to be something of a bully.  His 
> substitute father, Sirius, died literally, but in truth that death 
> (to Harry) had begun metaphorically very close to the start of the 
> book when Harry had the opportunity to spend more time with Sirius 
> and find out that he was also not perfect, that he did not always 
> agree with Sirius and that sometimes he was annoyed by him and found 
> him hypocritical.  This is a classic relationship between a father 
> and teenage son before the son decides that he needs to break away 
> from his father's influence to mature and become his own man--
> especially a father displaying so many undesirable traits that will 
> only hinder the boy in fulfilling his destiny.
> 
> Only by breaking away from ALL of his fathers can Harry embrace the 
> legacy of his mother and defeat Voldemort, I believe.  It's possible 
> that JKR didn't have to kill Sirius literally--it could have 
> continued to be metaphorical.  But she didn't choose metaphor this 
> time--unless you believe, as I do, that Sirius' death represents the 
> parts of Harry that are similar to Sirius dying (of necessity) and 
> that, afterward, the new Harry will be reborn from Sirius' ashes.  
> (There are phoenix metaphors all through OotP.)  
>

If there is any Oedipal breaking away from a father figure, I think we
have seen it in OoP, but not with Sirius or Hagrid.  I refer to that
other, ultimate parental figure, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian
Dumbledore.  In fact, if there is a theme for the book, other than
recounting the run-up to VW II, it is Harry challenging Dumbledore's
heretofor sacrosanct infallibility.

psychic Serpent:
  I expect mother figures--including Hagrid, Petunia, and Mrs.
Weasley--and mother-
> love to be of utmost importance in the concluding books of the 
> series.
> 
> --Barb

Yes on the mother-love, no on your assignment of gender roles.
(But I loved your reasoning)
John (Haggridd)




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 16 23:09:18 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:09:18 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bk82oj+60h4@...>
Message-ID: <bk856u+58ee@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
<jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> If there is any Oedipal breaking away from a father figure, I 
> think we have seen it in OoP, but not with Sirius or Hagrid.  I 
> refer to that other, ultimate parental figure, Albus Percival 
> Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.  In fact, if there is a theme for the 
> book, other than recounting the run-up to VW II, it is Harry 
> challenging Dumbledore's heretofor sacrosanct infallibility.

Well, I both agree and disagree with you.  I didn't mention 
Dumbledore previously, but you're absolutely right that Harry is 
breaking away from him as well.  He's breaking away from ALL of his 
father-figures, and the fit he threw in Dumbledore's office was 
perhaps the culmination of this in OotP.  He's already seen that 
James had feet of clay, he was constantly at odds with Sirius, who 
is now dead, so there can be no reconciliation, and on top of all 
that, he feels that the previously-infallible Dumbledore has let him 
down.  

It is also ironic that it was by ASSOCIATING with Dumbledore--at 
least in name--that Harry was saved from expulsion.  If the defense 
club had been called Potter's Army rather than Dumbledore's Army, 
Harry would have been up a creek.  (Also worth noting: the name of 
the DA was Ginny's idea.)  It's almost as though Harry is a young 
man who's finding his father's NAME useful for opening doors (or 
keeping him from being expelled, as the case may be), but not much 
else at this stage.  He's at that point when his father figures are 
striking him as being monumentally useless and yet also far too 
distant.
 
> psychic Serpent:
>   I expect mother figures--including Hagrid, Petunia, and Mrs.
> Weasley--and mother-love to be of utmost importance in the 
> concluding books of the series.
 
> Yes on the mother-love, no on your assignment of gender roles.

Well, actually I'm doing quite the opposite of assigning gender-
roles.  The very fact that Hagrid is filling a nurturing, motherly 
role in Harry's life shows that someone doing this doesn't have to 
be a particular gender.  There's quite a lot of gender-bending in 
the Potter books, actually.  I wish I had had the chance to go to 
the session at Nimbus in which Harry and Hermione were discussed as 
transgender heroes (each of them embodying traits that are 
traditionally associated with the opposite gender), but scheduling 
difficulties interfered.  I can't wait until the collected works of 
the presenters are available, though, so I can finally read about 
this theory in full!  

--Barb





From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 17 02:26:18 2003
From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:26:18 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Very OT- Hurricane Isabelle
References: <20030916014206.33799.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <002001c37cc3$14903d50$0302a8c0@athena>

Thanx, Wanda.  We're battening down the hatches here in North Carolina.

Jim Flanagan


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wanda the *B*Witch" <witchwanda2002 at ...>
To: "Harry Potter OT" <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "The Old Crowd from HPFGU" <the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 9:42 PM
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Very OT- Hurricane Isabelle


> Praying for everybody's safety down south! Keep everyone informed of your
safety. Will be worrying about online friends in harm's way.This is a
monster about to strike, be careful.
>
> Wanda the *B*Witch and Her Muggles 100%- All praying and worrying for
those in harm's way
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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>




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep 18 21:04:16 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:04:16 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bk7hjs+b9gi@...>
Message-ID: <bkd6kg+rdeu@...>

Heidi:
>>It's just that Hagrid didn't handle things as sensibly as he 
could have, regarding Grawp. 

I admit, I may be misremembering the book here, but I did just 
listen to the bit of OotP when Firenze told Harry to tell Hagrid 
that his attempt was not working, and I don't think that Hagrid 
had spoken with Dumbledore before bringing Grawp back to the 
forest either. I'm not suggesting that Hagrid, or anyone else, 
should've tried to *kill* Grawp, and I am sure that JKR will have 
some use for the giant later in the series, and that's why he had 
to be in the forest, but had Hagrid been more sensible, he could 
have organized things better. 

There is a very big difference between "dead" and "located 
elsewhere" and I think you're skimming over it in the leap you 
made in your last post. <<

Er, wait. You're supposing that Hagrid, on a mission for the 
Order, somehow managed to smuggle a  twelve foot Giant out of 
Europe, over the Channel and into a Scottish forest without  
Dumbledore's knowledge, much less his help? 

I'm sure that Dumbledore and McGonagall knew all about Grawp 
and supported what Hagrid was trying to do.  IMO, Firenze 
resorted to using Harry as a conduit because he knew Hagrid 
would listen only to Harry or Dumbledore, and Dumbledore 
wasn't cooperating.

 Hagrid turned to Harry as a last resort when Dumbledore was 
not available and McGonagall was in no position to help without 
arousing Umbridge.  In choosing Harry to provide for Grawp, 
Hagrid put Harry into a position very similar to the one Petunia 
found herself in when Harry showed up on her doorstep. Which, I 
think, is  *the* reason JKR put Grawp in the forest and is one  of 
the most significant developments in OOP.


Pippin:
> Is it the same reason that clever handsome 
> Sirius, who told Harry to judge a man by how he treats his 
> inferiors, is thought more worthy to survive than guileless, ugly 
> Hagrid, who doesn't think anyone has to be ashamed of what 
> they are?

Heidi:
>>Wha? Huh? Are you trying to say that my post yesterday, and 
ancillary fic, were created out of some sort of presumption that 
Sirius is more worthy to live than Hagrid? <<

You said that your fic was created to "give a more fitting end to 
chapter 35" . I interpreted that as "It is more fitting for Sirius 
to live than Hagrid."  Thanks for explaining further.

Heidi:
>>I played with the story and gave it the resolution I did because I 
wanted to still include a death that *would* be devestating to 
Harry in the moment - I don't think he would've been quite as 
hysterical if, say, Moody or Tonks had died, and it's not like Molly 
was *there* at the time - but would have had less reprucussions 
on his future. <<

Well, I have to disagree about the repercussions. IMO, the 
relationship between Harry and Sirius that  fell to ashes in OOP 
would have been doomed even if Sirius hadn't died, even if he'd 
been free of Grimmauld Place. 

 Molly and Hermione testify to Sirius's need to see Harry as  
James. IMO, it works the other way too. It wasn't Sirius Harry was 
so desperate to connect with. It was James. 

When Harry demands an accounting for Snape's memory, it's 
*James's* motives and history he's concerned with, even though 
Sirius was there too. At the very end, Harry sorrows for the 
question about *James* he never got to ask, even though 
Sirius's past is just as much a mystery.

 This, IMO is why when Harry and Sirius are together for any 
length of time their connection fades instead of deepening. It's 
why Harry not only doesn't use the Mirror, but isn't even tempted 
by it. The real Sirius isn't as satisfying as the imagined one 
because the real Sirius isn't, and never could be, James. If Sirius 
had lived I don't know if either  of them could have  escaped the 
shadow of James and forged a relationship in which they were 
valued for themselves alone.
  

IMHO, in the end Harry will realize he can replace his father only 
as he did in PoA; by taking his father's place.  Harry must do the 
things his father failed to do:  accord with Snape,  expose the 
secret traitor and finally save his beloved from 
Voldemort.(SHIPping Note: this is why I don't see H/H as a long 
term possibility. It would be a waste of Hermione's heroic 
potential for her to need Harry to rescue her from Lord V.)


Pippin




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Thu Sep 18 22:23:09 2003
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:23:09 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bkd6kg+rdeu@...>
Message-ID: <bkdb8d+mael@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> When Harry demands an accounting for Snape's memory, it's 
> *James's* motives and history he's concerned with, even though 
> Sirius was there too. At the very end, Harry sorrows for the 
> question about *James* he never got to ask, even though 
> Sirius's past is just as much a mystery.
> 
>  This, IMO is why when Harry and Sirius are together for any 
> length of time their connection fades instead of deepening. It's 
> why Harry not only doesn't use the Mirror, but isn't even tempted 
> by it. The real Sirius isn't as satisfying as the imagined one 
> because the real Sirius isn't, and never could be, James. If 
> Sirius had lived I don't know if either  of them could have  
> escaped the shadow of James and forged a relationship in which 
> they were valued for themselves alone.

Yes!  Neither one was seeing the other person for who he really 
was.  And neither was satisfied with the other person--Sirius 
thought that Harry wasn't enough like James, and Harry wasn't 
satisfied with Sirius, either, although I think it was because he 
wasn't literally his father, not because he necessarily wanted him 
to be like the prat he saw in the Pensieve.  The fact that he 
wondered why his mother ever married his father was a clear 
indication that he was getting 'over' James, and perhaps the idea of 
finding a substitute father in general.  

As you say below, the solution is for him to become his own father, 
which is reminiscent of that line in Wordsworth's "My heart leaps 
up"--The child is father of the man.  So perhaps PoA was strangely 
prophetic during the episode when Harry mistook himself for James.  
After reading OotP, I'm finding many things in the earlier books 
(especially the first one) to be possible indications of 
foreshadowing, even though certain episodes previously did not come 
across that way at all.

> IMHO, in the end Harry will realize he can replace his father only 
> as he did in PoA; by taking his father's place.  Harry must do the 
> things his father failed to do:  accord with Snape,  expose the 
> secret traitor and finally save his beloved from 
> Voldemort.(SHIPping Note: this is why I don't see H/H as a long 
> term possibility. It would be a waste of Hermione's heroic 
> potential for her to need Harry to rescue her from Lord V.)
 
Well, I'm not sure he needs to find accord with Snape as much as 
Snape needs to stop visiting the sins of the father on the son.  If 
he hadn't done that to begin with, they probably wouldn't have the 
adversarial relationship that they do.  Harry has been responding to 
Snape's patent unfairness all along.  He's lived with that all of 
his live, at the Dursleys, and perhaps he thought he could escape it 
at Hogwarts.  Just as Sirius needed to see that Harry wasn't James, 
Snape needs to see that as well.  I don't really see that as Harry's 
problem but Snape's.  

Now, I would have thought exposing the secret traitor would have 
been a priority before OotP, but that's when the purpose of that 
would seem to have been to clear Sirius.  As that is no longer a 
concern (although he could be cleared posthumously, I suppose), 
Peter must serve some other purpose.  (I thought it was weird that 
he was nowhere to be seen in OotP.)  It seemed that Dumbledore 
telling Harry that Peter is indebted to him was a clear 
foreshadowing of Peter turning on Voldemort and doing something to 
benefit the good guys.  Does NO ONE else see Peter redeeming 
himself?  Probably only just before buying the farm, yeah, but 
still. ;)

I also don't see Harry rescuing a damsel-in-distress from Voldemort 
as part of the climactic conclusion (pun intended <eg>) to the 
series.  I sort of think he's already been there and done that in 
CoS.  At that stage, Ginny was young enough to be truly helpless.  
At this point in the series, none of the possible female candidates 
for Harry-counterparts are really frail and helpless enough for this 
to ring true.  The damsels have all grown up and are forces to be 
reckoned with in their own right.

--Barb 




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Sep 19 16:44:47 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:44:47 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bkdb8d+mael@...>
Message-ID: <bkfbpv+urj3@...>

I said:

> IMHO, in the end Harry will realize he can replace his father 
only  as he did in PoA; by taking his father's place.  Harry must do 
the things his father failed to do:  accord with Snape,  expose the 
 secret traitor and finally save his beloved from Voldemort. 
(SHIPping Note: this is why I don't see H/H as a long 
term possibility. It would be a waste of Hermione's heroic 
 potential for her to need Harry to rescue her from Lord V.)<
 

Barb:
>>Well, I'm not sure he needs to find accord with Snape as 
much as Snape needs to stop visiting the sins of the father on 
the son.  If he hadn't done that to begin with, they probably 
wouldn't have the adversarial relationship that they do.  Harry has 
been responding to Snape's patent unfairness all along.  He's 
lived with that all of his live, at the Dursleys, and perhaps he 
thought he could escape it at Hogwarts.  Just as Sirius needed 
to see that Harry wasn't James, Snape needs to see that as well.  
I don't really see that as Harry's problem but Snape's.<<


"At the sight of [Snape] Harry felt a great rush of hatred beyond 
anything he felt toward Malfoy... Whatever Dumbledore said, he 
would never forgive Snape...never..." --OOP ch.38

 Snape basically has stopped seeing Harry as James, IMO. The 
Occlumency lessons did that much good at least. Trouble is,  
Harry can't bear to think that  Sirius died because he, Harry, was 
hoodwinked by Voldemort. Harry doesn't know how to forgive 
himself for that and so he's displaced all his guilty feelings on to 
Snape. As of the end of OOP, the undeserved hatred shoe is on 
the other foot.

Barb:
>>Now, I would have thought exposing the secret traitor would 
have been a priority before OotP, but that's when the purpose of 
that would seem to have been to clear Sirius.  As that is no 
longer a concern (although he could be cleared posthumously, I 
suppose), Peter must serve some other purpose.  (I thought it 
was weird that he was nowhere to be seen in OotP.)  It seemed 
that Dumbledore telling Harry that Peter is indebted to him was a 
clear foreshadowing of Peter turning on Voldemort and doing 
something to benefit the good guys.  Does NO ONE else see 
Peter redeeming himself?  Probably only just before buying the 
farm, yeah, but still. ;)<<

Yes! Yes! I didn't want to clutter my post with Evil!Lupin theory,
but yes, Peter will redeem himself. IMO, Peter was absent from 
OOP because JKR isn't ready to reveal that he wasn't the chief 
traitor to the Order.

Barb:
>>I also don't see Harry rescuing a damsel-in-distress from 
Voldemort as part of the climactic conclusion (pun intended 
<eg>) to the series.  I sort of think he's already been there and 
done that in CoS.  At that stage, Ginny was young enough to be 
truly helpless.  At this point in the series, none of the possible 
female candidates for Harry-counterparts are really frail and 
helpless enough for this to ring true.  The damsels have all 
grown up and are forces to be reckoned with in their own right.<<

No, I don't think Ginny needs to reprise her fainting damsel 
routine. But I wouldn't call Lily frail and helpless either. When 
all else failed, Lily died  in an act of passive resistance. That 
scenario has to repeat itself  so that Harry can do what James 
did not and make such a sacrifice unnecessary.  It would be a 
waste of Hermione's long struggle to get to the point where she 
doesn't freeze in battle  (she's there!)  and fights to win (erm, not 
quite), to cast her in the passive resistance role at the end. As for
Luna, she  is so strong in her acceptance already that for her to 
be the one who accepts her death as the price of victory would 
seem too pat.

Pippin






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sat Sep 20 06:40:27 2003
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:40:27 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP was Redeeming Hagrid
In-Reply-To: <bkfbpv+urj3@...>
Message-ID: <bkgsor+61od@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

<< When all else failed, Lily died  in an act of passive resistance.
That scenario has to repeat itself  so that Harry can do what James
did not and make such a sacrifice unnecessary. >>

What are you proposing that James should have done? By the time that
Voldemort found their hidey-hole, James shouted to Lily to take Harry
and run away while James held him off (as long as he could). He needed
to be better at dodging Avada Kedavra so that he could have held him
off long enough that Lily *could* have run away?

<< As for Luna, she  is so strong in her acceptance already that for her
to be the one who accepts her death as the price of victory would seem
too pat. >>

To me, OoP shows that JKR is more willing to be pat than we are. For
example, Hermione's blackmail of Rita Skeeter worked just fine despite
so many listies predicting it would come back to bite her.





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 22 02:12:00 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 02:12:00 -0000
Subject: Rewriting OotP was Redeeming Hagrid
In-Reply-To: <bkgsor+61od@...>
Message-ID: <bkllpg+ntu2@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" 
<foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> 
> << When all else failed, Lily died  in an act of passive 
resistance.
> That scenario has to repeat itself  so that Harry can do what 
James
> did not and make such a sacrifice unnecessary. >>
> 
> What are you proposing that James should have done? 

Lily died because James, or she and James, trusted the wrong 
person.  I think Harry will have to make better choices than 
James did.

Pippin




From heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 22 11:30:59 2003
From: heidit at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:30:59 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bkd6kg+rdeu@...>
Message-ID: <bkmmhj+10qle@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Er, wait. You're supposing that Hagrid, on a mission for the 
> Order, somehow managed to smuggle a  twelve foot Giant out of 
> Europe, over the Channel and into a Scottish forest without  
> Dumbledore's knowledge, much less his help? 

Yes, I am. I am *sure* that Dumbledore had previously given Hagrid 
instructions on where to travel (i.e. a map) if he did return with 
any giants, and I'm also quite sure that Madame Maxime assisted 
Hagrid in getting his trip back started, as shown here in Chapter 30:

'Did Madame Maxime want to bring him back?' asked Harry.

'She - well, she could see it was right importan' ter me,' said 
Hagrid, twisting his enormous hands. 'Bu' - bu' she got a bit tired 
o' him after a while, I must admit
 so we split up on the journey 
home
 she promised not ter tell anyone, though
"

'How on earth did you get him back without anyone noticing?' said 
Harry.

'Well, tha's why it took so long, see,' said Hagrid. 'Could on'y 
travel by nigh' an' through wild country an' stuff. Course, he covers 
the ground pretty well when he wants ter, but he kep' wantin' ter go 
back.'

************

Clearly, from what Hagrid said, she stayed with them in the initial 
stage of their return trip - perhaps a week or two? - and that help, 
rather than any help from Dumbledore, is what assisted Hagrid. 

> 
> I'm sure that Dumbledore and McGonagall knew all about Grawp 
> and supported what Hagrid was trying to do.  IMO, Firenze 
> resorted to using Harry as a conduit because he knew Hagrid 
> would listen only to Harry or Dumbledore, and Dumbledore 
> wasn't cooperating.

IMO, Minerva didn't know anything about it - if she had, or at least 
if Hagrid had thought she had, he would've gone to her to ask for 
help, rather than to Harry and Hermione (and Ron in absentia). And 
while I think that once Hagrid returned Dumbledore may've known about 
it because of Hagrid's injuries, he knew about it in the way that 
he's demonstrated knowing things about Harry from time to time - and 
not getting in the way of what the person is trying to do. 

> 
>  Hagrid turned to Harry as a last resort when Dumbledore was 
> not available and McGonagall was in no position to help without 
> arousing Umbridge.  In choosing Harry to provide for Grawp, 
> Hagrid put Harry into a position very similar to the one Petunia 
> found herself in when Harry showed up on her doorstep. Which, I 
> think, is  *the* reason JKR put Grawp in the forest and is one  of 
> the most significant developments in OOP.

Oh, I just think she put him there because she'll need him, somehow, 
in a later book - and am I the only one who thought Hermione was 
leading Umbridge to Grawp when they went into the forrest a few 
chapters later? I was thinking a very Sondheim-esque fairy tale 
combination involving feeding the wicked witch to the giant. 




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 22 19:26:06 2003
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:26:06 -0000
Subject: Redeeming Hagrid was Rewriting OotP
In-Reply-To: <bkmmhj+10qle@...>
Message-ID: <bknice+2s2m@...>

Heidi:
I am *sure* that Dumbledore had previously given Hagrid 
 instructions on where to travel (i.e. a map) if he did return with 
any giants, and I'm also quite sure that Madame Maxime 
assisted  Hagrid in getting his trip back started, as shown here 
in Chapter 30:
> 
> 'Did Madame Maxime want to bring him back?' asked Harry.
> 
> 'She - well, she could see it was right importan' ter me,' said 
> Hagrid, twisting his enormous hands. 'Bu' - bu' she got a bit 
tired  o' him after a while, I must admit
 so we split up on the 
journey  home
 she promised not ter tell anyone, though
"

Pippin:

But Dumbledore  would have wondered why Hagrid was 
delayed, particularly if Madame Maxime kept her promise and 
told Dumbledore that no giants had agreed to come back with 
them. Dumbledore would have investigated, if only to assure 
himself that  Hagrid hadn't been taken by Dementors and  
tossed into some foreign equivalent of Azkaban.

Also  if Dumbledore  made arrangements for Hagrid to bring 
giants back with him, he must have given thought to where the 
Giants were going to stay. This would neatly explain why Harry 
doesn't have to concern himself with Grawp's feeding (canon) 
and sanitary arrangements (assumed) even though he is 
penned...Dumbledore's magic has taken care of it all.

Pippin:
> > I'm sure that Dumbledore and McGonagall knew all about 
Grawp 

Heidi:
> IMO, Minerva didn't know anything about it - if she had, or at 
least  if Hagrid had thought she had, he would've gone to her to 
ask for help, rather than to Harry and Hermione (and Ron in 
absentia). <

 It's got to be obvious even to Hagrid that Umbridge is looking for 
excuses to sack everyone who's too close to Dumbledore. You 
also wouldn't need to be a seer to figure out that McGonagall and 
Umbridge are going to lock wands sooner or later. "Only one 
queen in a hive," as Terry Pratchett puts it. And I can see 
McGonagall, who certainly seems to be very protective of Hagrid, 
warning him that if he's not going without a fight, he's not going 
to fight alone. Harry's a safer choice: Umbridge *doesn't* want to 
expel Harry once she's got rid of Dumbledore...she wants the 
boy under her control, not his.

Of course,  Hagrid can't have expected to Harry to stay at 
Hogwarts for the summer either, so he must have made further 
arrangements we don't know about. Hagrid probably figured he'd 
be able to sneak back onto the grounds once term was over and 
Umbridge left.

Heidi:
And 
> while I think that once Hagrid returned Dumbledore may've 
known about  it because of Hagrid's injuries, he knew about it in 
the way that  he's demonstrated knowing things about Harry from 
time to time - and  not getting in the way of what the person is 
trying to do. <

Exactly! So when Firenze tells Dumbledore that Hagrid's got to 
be told to stop, Dumbledore either pretends he doesn't know 
what Firenze is talking about, or flat out refuses to interfere. 
When Dumbledore trusts you, he doesn't get in the way of what 
you're trying to do.

Pippin said:
 In choosing Harry to provide for Grawp,  Hagrid put Harry into a 
position very similar to the one Petunia  found herself in when 
Harry showed up on her doorstep. Which, I think, is  *the* reason 
JKR put Grawp in the forest and is one  of  the most significant 
developments in OOP.

Heidi:
> Oh, I just think she put him there because she'll need him, 
somehow, in a later book - and am I the only one who thought 
Hermione was  leading Umbridge to Grawp when they went into 
the forrest a few  chapters later? I was thinking a very 
Sondheim-esque fairy tale  combination involving feeding the 
wicked witch to the giant.<

JKR obviously had a  darker theme in mind...offering a virgin 
sacrifice to the monsters. Hermione's hubris, which I expected to 
bite her when she kidnapped Rita, finally took its toll here. Of 
course it's Grawp who helped her escape a fate worse than 
death.

The leaves and twigs which seem to be permanently attached to 
Umbridge's  hair when she comes out of the forest suggest that 
something really strange happened in there.

Am I the only one who sees a parallel between Petunia's  choice 
to assume responsibility for Harry and Harry's  choice to assume 
responsibility for Grawp? 

--------
"She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, 
bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, she sealed the 
charm..."

"I explained what I had done in the letter I had left...She knows 
that allowing you houseroom..."

"I  suspected that she might need reminding of the pact she 
sealed by taking you...the dementor attack might have awoken 
her to the dangers of having you for a surrogate son. "

----

"Harry could not  think of a single thing to say. What was going to 
happen when somebody found out Hagrid had hidden Grawp in 
the Forest? And he had promised that he, Ron, and Hermione 
would continue Hagrid's totally pointless attempts to civilize the 
giant...How could Hagrid, even with his immense capacity to 
delude himself that fanged monsters were lovably harmless, 
fool himself that Grawp would ever be fit to mix with humans?"

---
Change the nouns, and that could be Petunia, having second 
thoughts about her pact with Dumbledore.

Pippin





From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 23 01:12:09 2003
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: There Be Giants Ahead was Redeeming Hagrid
In-Reply-To: <bknice+2s2m@...>
Message-ID: <20030923011209.35131.qmail@...>

Regarding Giants....

If you look at the end of Sorcerer's Stone at the
different challenges that Harry faced to get to the
stone, there are several interesting things.

Someone else brought this up about parallels with the
ending of Book One and the seven books in the series. 
If you look at the next to the last task, you see
Snape's potion challenge.  It describes the different
bottles of potions.  It also says:

"Neither dwarf nor giant holds death in their
insides."

I think the next book has dwarf and giant stories to
tell!

Since both are considered inferiors to wizards,
Padfoot's remark about how one treats his inferiors
seems important to this too.  Harry will obviously
befriend the giants and dwarves and they will help him
somehow.

I also wonder about the line that reads:
"Three of us are killers, waiting hidden in line."

I think Book One has lots of clues for the series.  

Randy


> Heidi:
> > Oh, I just think she put him there because she'll
> need him, 
> somehow, in a later book - 
> ---

> 
=== message truncated ===


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