From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 16:46:35 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (kneasy) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:46:35 -0000 Subject: Never again Message-ID: I made a terrible mistake a couple of weeks ago. I watched the PoA DVD. If I'd actually paid for the damn thing I'd have demanded my money back. Fortunately I hadn't; it belonged to a so-called friend who should have known better than to inflict such rubbish on my delicate sensitivities. Not being any more opinionated than the next cultural guerrilla, I have - well, let's call them rules of thumb. One is that a book expands your imagination and a film, no matter how good, is the depiction of somebody else's imagination, usually the director/producer's. And since these professions (when working for one of the large corporations) are expected to be as interested in the bottom line as they are in producing anything that might challenge the senses, it's the paying (or in my case non-paying) customer that ends up feeling that it could have been better. Consider; if the books didn't exist, who would have bothered to go and watch that film? Damn few, I suspect. More likely it would have been straight to video and you could have picked up a copy in a car boot sale before Christmas for a few pence. And that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the film. It couldn't stand on it's own. The customers only turned up because they knew the book; the film would have been a failure if it had had to stand on its own merits. Yet as it is Warner Bros and the director bask in the warm glow of the accountants' approval. They piggy-backed onto a much loved and successful book and vacuumed the fans pockets by associating themselves with a success. One of the difficulties facing these filmic inadequates (who seem to be totally deficient in their appreciation of the HP ethos) is that they have been thrust in part-way through a contiguous series. Admittedly that doesn't make it any easier for them. Doesn't make it any easier for us either. PS was an enjoyable novelty; CoS - hmn, maybe not quite as good. But at least there was some continuity between the two. Not so with the third. It was the bastard off-spring of Gormenghast meets Malcolm in the Middle. Yuck. It may be significant that they felt the necessity to recruit 'stars' for what were quite minor roles. 'Cameo' appearances are usually a warning that it's not being taken all that seriously as a project. The first two films had John Cleese (big mistake IMO); Alan Rickman (fun but not nasty enough); plus Richard Harris and Maggie Smith as internationally known actors to give it a bit of weight. Good balance between known and unknowns I'd think. Now this latest effort. Who noticed (before the credits rolled) that Julie Christie was in it? I sure didn't. Emma Thomson. Why? What did she add to it? Lennie Henry as a shrunken head. Shrunken head? What the hell's that doing in there? Plus a handful of other Brit stalwarts apparently included to up the "spot the 7th magnitude star" factor. Grrr. Then there's Oldman and Thewlis. I have to admit that I'd never before heard of David Thewlis. Wish I could still say so. Oozing ersatz concern like rancid cheese over the screen with an impression reminiscient of a third rate geography teacher who wants to be 'chums' with the students, the only thing more wooden was the Forbidden Forest. What he turned into wasn't much cop, either. Werewolf? Looked more like the result of a failed attempt to breed a comic-book killer by exposing Scooby-Doo to high levels of mutagenic pollutants for a few generations. Nope, doesn't hack it for me. Bring back Fluffy! Then there's Gary Oldman. What can one say? Well, I'd be looking forward to him getting killed in film 5 if I intended watching it - which I don't. Which is the whole point of this blast of bile. Never again. I'll happily part with hard cash for the books. JKR gets richer? Good. She deserves it. Not so the perpetrators of the travesty I watched a couple of weeks back. They'll not get a penny of mine from now on. And it's bloody irritating that they won't even notice. Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 16:54:18 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:54:18 -0000 Subject: Is there anybody there? Message-ID: Kneasy posted here one second before I put this up, but I'll post it anyway. Troublemakers both. I guess I shouldn't be the person asking this, since my last post was so tedious that it seems to have stopped all chat for nearly two months...but is there a reason why this list is so quiet? - nothing left to say until Book 6? - less interested in HP than before? - no time to post here as well as elsewhere? - ?? Carolyn Wondering if collecting together excerpts from everyone's first posts would get people talking, or alternatively, get her thrown out. 'Is there anybody there?' said the Traveller, Knocking on the moonlit door; And his horse in the silence champed the grasses Of the forest's ferny floor: And a bird flew up out of the turret, Above the Traveller's head And he smote upon the door again a second time; 'Is there anybody there?' he said. But no one descended to the Traveller; No head from the leaf-fringed sill Leaned over and looked into his grey eyes, Where he stood perplexed and still. But only a host of phantom listeners That dwelt in the lone house then Stood listening in the quiet of the moonlight To that voice from the world of men: Stood thronging the faint moonbeams on the dark stair, That goes down to the empty hall, Hearkening in an air stirred and shaken By the lonely Traveller's call. And he felt in his heart their strangeness, Their stillness answering his cry, While his horse moved, cropping the dark turf, 'Neath the starred and leafy sky; For he suddenly smote on the door, even Louder, and lifted his head:- 'Tell them I came, and no one answered, That I kept my word,' he said. Never the least stir made the listeners, Though every word he spake Fell echoing through the shadowiness of the still house >From the one man left awake: Ay, they heard his foot upon the stirrup, And the sound of iron on stone, And how the silence surged softly backward, When the plunging hoofs were gone. The Listeners, Walter de la Mare From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 17:14:20 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 04:14:20 +1100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041202171420.GB8968@...> On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 04:46:35PM -0000, kneasy wrote: > I'll happily part with hard cash for the books. JKR gets richer? Good. > She deserves it. Not so the perpetrators of the travesty I watched > a couple of weeks back. They'll not get a penny of mine from now on. > And it's bloody irritating that they won't even notice. Considering the apparent input JKR has has had in each and every movie so far, I don't think you can excuse her from complicity, particularly in the latest 'travesty'. And she gets a good cut from the movies+merchandise too. She isn't the innocent bystander at all. Having said that, the movies have their place. Yes it's a milk, what did you expect from this culture? The fans are just as complicit, they watch the movies, buy the DVDs and the merchandise. I personally cannot stand Harry Potter Lego, but I know adults who collect it. One shrugs ones shoulders and waits for the next installment. -- Ancient C64 curses #201: A HEX on 53294! From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 17:31:59 2004 From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:31:59 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200412021728.iB2HSFZd004999@...> And I absolutely loved the film. I have some complaints about it, but overall I loved it. Rowling said she loved it too. So it's a matter of opinion, obviously. Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: kneasy [mailto:arrowsmithbt at ...] > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:47 AM > To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again > > > > > I made a terrible mistake a couple of weeks ago. > I watched the PoA DVD. > > If I'd actually paid for the damn thing I'd have demanded my > money back. Fortunately I hadn't; it belonged to a so-called > friend who should have known better than to inflict such > rubbish on my delicate sensitivities. > > Not being any more opinionated than the next cultural > guerrilla, I have - well, let's call them rules of thumb. One > is that a book expands your imagination and a film, no matter > how good, is the depiction of somebody else's imagination, > usually the director/producer's. And since these professions > (when working for one of the large corporations) are expected > to be as interested in the bottom line as they are in > producing anything that might challenge the senses, it's the > paying (or in my case non-paying) customer that ends up > feeling that it could have been better. > > Consider; if the books didn't exist, who would have bothered > to go and watch that film? Damn few, I suspect. More likely > it would have been straight to video and you could have > picked up a copy in a car boot sale before Christmas for a few pence. > And that tells you everything you need to know about the > quality of the film. It couldn't stand on it's own. > > The customers only turned up because they knew the book; the > film would have been a failure if it had had to stand on its > own merits. Yet as it is Warner Bros and the director bask > in the warm glow of the accountants' approval. They > piggy-backed onto a much loved and successful book and > vacuumed the fans pockets by associating themselves with a success. > > One of the difficulties facing these filmic inadequates (who > seem to be totally deficient in their appreciation of the HP > ethos) is that they have been thrust in part-way through a > contiguous series. > Admittedly that doesn't make it any easier for them. Doesn't > make it any easier for us either. PS was an enjoyable > novelty; CoS - hmn, maybe not quite as good. But at least > there was some continuity between the two. Not so with the > third. It was the bastard off-spring of Gormenghast meets > Malcolm in the Middle. Yuck. > > It may be significant that they felt the necessity to recruit > 'stars' for what were quite minor roles. 'Cameo' appearances > are usually a warning that it's not being taken all that > seriously as a project. The first two films had John Cleese > (big mistake IMO); Alan Rickman (fun but not nasty enough); > plus Richard Harris and Maggie Smith as internationally known > actors to give it a bit of weight. Good balance between > known and unknowns I'd think. > > Now this latest effort. > Who noticed (before the credits rolled) that Julie Christie > was in it? > I sure didn't. Emma Thomson. Why? What did she add to it? > Lennie Henry as a shrunken head. Shrunken head? What the > hell's that doing in there? Plus a handful of other Brit > stalwarts apparently included to up the "spot the 7th > magnitude star" factor. Grrr. > > Then there's Oldman and Thewlis. > I have to admit that I'd never before heard of David Thewlis. > Wish I could still say so. Oozing ersatz concern like rancid > cheese over the screen with an impression reminiscient of a > third rate geography teacher who wants to be 'chums' with the > students, the only thing more wooden was the Forbidden > Forest. What he turned into wasn't much cop, either. > Werewolf? Looked more like the result of a failed attempt to > breed a comic-book killer by exposing Scooby-Doo to high > levels of mutagenic pollutants for a few generations. Nope, > doesn't hack it for me. Bring back Fluffy! > > Then there's Gary Oldman. What can one say? Well, I'd be > looking forward to him getting killed in film 5 if I intended > watching it - which I don't. Which is the whole point of this > blast of bile. Never again. > I'll happily part with hard cash for the books. JKR gets > richer? Good. > She deserves it. Not so the perpetrators of the travesty I > watched a couple of weeks back. They'll not get a penny of > mine from now on. > And it's bloody irritating that they won't even notice. > > Kneasy > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. > Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/.DlolB/TM > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 18:16:28 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:16:28 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again References: <200412021728.iB2HSFZd004999@...> Message-ID: <018601c4d89b$0bd73440$01fea8c0@...> I agree with Steve, while I had some complaints story wise I enjoyed the movie as did my mother who can't read the books. She honestly thought it was the best one yet. Stylistically, the movie made me happier then the first too, I liked the look and the feel of the book. Pace wise I wasn't happy, it went slightly too fast (the music in the DADA scene set the tone for how fast the movie seemed to go for me). Story wise they could have added more about James and the gang and less Knight Bus, but over all I enjoyed it and watched it several times. But again, it's all opinion. Saitaina **** No story that starts with 'going down on someone' and ends with a trip to the ER can ever be good. http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 18:40:51 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:40:51 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again References: <200412021728.iB2HSFZd004999@...> Message-ID: <007d01c4d89e$77276780$220110ac@MainComputer> Yep ----- me too to what Steve said. I saw it in the theater oh .......only 4 times I think (which is a low for me, despite liking this film the best of all), but I've already watched the DVD 4 times too. I *love* it. Love it. 'tis the best so far by about 100%, but I'm not a huge fan of Columbus. I do like the filmic versions, though obviously the books are paramount to me. Yes, it's definitely a matter of opinion. Penny ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Vander Ark To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:31 AM Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] Never again And I absolutely loved the film. I have some complaints about it, but overall I loved it. Rowling said she loved it too. So it's a matter of opinion, obviously. Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: kneasy [mailto:arrowsmithbt at ...] > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:47 AM > To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again > > > > > I made a terrible mistake a couple of weeks ago. > I watched the PoA DVD. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 19:21:30 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (kneasy) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 19:21:30 -0000 Subject: Never again In-Reply-To: <20041202171420.GB8968@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, sean dwyer wrote: > > Considering the apparent input JKR has has had in each and every movie so far, > I don't think you can excuse her from complicity, particularly in the latest > 'travesty'. And she gets a good cut from the movies+merchandise too. She isn't > the innocent bystander at all. Having said that, the movies have their place. > Yes it's a milk, what did you expect from this culture? The fans are just as > complicit, they watch the movies, buy the DVDs and the merchandise. I > personally cannot stand Harry Potter Lego, but I know adults who collect it. > One shrugs ones shoulders and waits for the next installment. > I'm wondering just how much input she did have. An advisor, certainly, but I can't help remembering she signed contracts with Warners before the tidal wave really hit. Same with merchandising. She freely admitted in the Paxman interview that she couldn't get the contracts she wanted, she didn't have enough leverage at the time. She doesn't even own copyright to the name 'Harry Potter' - Warners does. Obviously she won't (or is unable) to stand up and make criticisms of the film; that'd cause complications she can well do without. But anyway, what she may or may not think of the film is obviously irrelevant to my view of it. I felt badly let down. I really shouldn't have watched it; I never intended too, not because I didn't like the first two, but because the images I'd formed of the book characters were being usurped by the reality of the film characters. But replete with wine and food at a friends house, the DVD was produced with a flourish and we all settled down to enjoy it. Except we didn't. By majority vote. 3 said it was a stinker, 1 said it was OK but didn't match the hype and 2 'quite' liked it. All adults BTW. Still, as one author is reported to have said when reproached for selling film rights to his book to schlock merchants - "They can't ruin the book, they can only ruin the film." Kneasy From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 19:50:39 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (Jeralyn) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:50:39 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again References: <007d01c4d89e$77276780$220110ac@MainComputer> Message-ID: <002701c4d8a8$342ce7c0$64d9b3d1@Study> As for me, I loved it. Saw it in the theatre twice (and I positively hate going to the movies), and picked it up the day the dvd was available. Hubby and I even had a day of Harry Potter Pandemonium! where we sat and watched all 3. We stayed in pjs all day, and drank massive quantities of soda and ate buckets of popcorn. Stylistically, we feel that the 3rd was the best put together of the 3 so far. The movie-making process was tighter and not as loose and wild as the first 2. The overall story was told rather than scene/scene/scene. The through line was more apparent. Of course, you have to go into it realizing that it *isn't* the book and enjoy it for what it is. ----- Original Message ----- From: "pennylin" Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [the_old_crowd] Never again > > Yep ----- me too to what Steve said. I saw it in the theater oh > .......only 4 times I think (which is a low for me, despite liking this > film the best of all), but I've already watched the DVD 4 times too. > I *love* it. Love it. 'tis the best so far by about 100%, but I'm not a > huge fan of Columbus. I do like the filmic versions, though obviously the > books are paramount to me. Yes, it's definitely a matter of opinion. > > Penny > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Vander Ark > To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:31 AM > Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] Never again > > > And I absolutely loved the film. I have some complaints about it, but > overall I loved it. Rowling said she loved it too. So it's a matter of > opinion, obviously. > > Steve > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: kneasy [mailto:arrowsmithbt at ...] > > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:47 AM > > To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again > > > > > > > > > > I made a terrible mistake a couple of weeks ago. > > I watched the PoA DVD. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 20:13:22 2004 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:13:22 -0000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carolyn said: <<< I guess I shouldn't be the person asking this, since my last post was so tedious that it seems to have stopped all chat for nearly two months...but is there a reason why this list is so quiet? - nothing left to say until Book 6? - less interested in HP than before? - no time to post here as well as elsewhere? - ?? >>> Well... almost "all of the above", but "??" being the most interesting: after being tied up and robbed at gunpoint in my flat at the end of October, I'm moving into a rented flat this weekend. No folks, that wasn't a joke. And, Carolyn - your post was not tedious. Barry said, about PoA on film: <<< It was the bastard off-spring of Gormenghast meets Malcolm in the Middle. >>> ~~Swoon~~ That sounds *just* perfect! I don't think it's quite that good though: to me it's not as grim and surreal as Gormenghast and not as sharp and funny and as MitM. The kids in MitM are also far superior as actors to those in the HP series. IMHO. I bought the DVD of PoA, but I haven't watched the film again. I found the first two offerings disappointing and mechanical, but I thought Cuaron added some interest and strong imagery to the third film, helped by dropping the dewy-eyed schmaltz (such as that ridiculous rousing ovation for Hagrid at the end of CoS). Okay, the Thewlis-to-werewolf transformation was an astounding waste of money, and I had some other gripes about the film, but I think PoA flows and bears up very well as a book adaptation. *** I'm having huge problems getting cable set up at my new place, so my online time may be limited for a while. Not that this list would, ahem, notice... as - returning to Carolyn's point - it is *very* quiet. Neil // flying ford anglia From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 20:43:34 2004 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:43:34 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Carolyn said: (Snppage) >is there a reason why this list is so quiet? > >- nothing left to say until Book 6? >- less interested in HP than before? >- no time to post here as well as elsewhere? >- ?? >>> For me, it's a combination of nothing to say until HBP comes out and the fact that I *still* haven't forgiven her for OotP. Neil said: >Well... almost "all of the above", but "??" being the most interesting: >after being tied up and robbed at gunpoint in my flat at the end of >October, >I'm moving into a rented flat this weekend. > >No folks, that wasn't a joke. And, Carolyn - your post was not tedious. Neil, hope you're recovering--as much as one can from something like that. Doug was robbed back when he was in New York (back in the late '60s/early 70s). *To this day*, he still insists that we keep all the doors/windows locked tightly. Parker From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 21:31:31 2004 From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:31:31 -0000 Subject: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "kneasy" wrote: > > I made a terrible mistake a couple of weeks ago. > I watched the PoA DVD. I haven't seen it. It came out when I was in France, and I (perhaps having cheery thoughts that it might be worth seeing) refused to see it in French. Anyways, I had far better ways to spend something like 7 euros--that'll buy a few demis, or a nice bottle of wine. Then, reading of what all was done, and what all was cut, I decided "Eh, probably not worth it". By the time I got back Stateside, I had other things to think about, and now--well, I'd rather buy other things, and a movie costs enough that it's more worth it to buy opera tickets. I do agree with Kneasy here (hear the sound of hell freezing again?) that movie is almost always best thought of as a vision of a book. There are those few, rare, happy situations where book and movie are comparable yet palpably different. I adore Tarkovsky's Solaris. But Rowling's work, IMO, doesn't lend itself so nicely to that kind of poetic reimagination. It's too fundamentally about the storytelling--so if you botch that, you botch the real depths of the thing. And unlike the operatic reimaginations of novel, where one is expected to know the original when seeing the stage work (and that forms a good part of the aesthetic of the opera--tends to be a Russian thing, naturally), I doubt there's enough in the movie of originality and beauty, enough space filled in by the visual aspects of the film (as music does for the literature-operas), to redeem the failures to the spirit of the original. I'd probably watch it if you showed it to me. With enough beer. Good beer. Now, it's back to writing papers. And being miserably sick. -Nora sniffles and moans in the corner (quietly, in a minor mode) From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 22:22:20 2004 From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:22:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041202222221.61550.qmail@...> I'm a longtime lurker. I'm also eight months pregnant with my first child, so between dealing with the symptoms of pregnancy, trying to get ready for the baby, and all the hustle and bustle that comes with the holiday season... I don't have much time for posting. :) Plus, I really don't feel like I have anything meaningful to contribute - usually when we have a discussion, I'm floored by the length, introspection, and erudition of all the posts! I don't feel that I can compete! I do enjoy reading them, though. For the record, I've enjoyed the movies. I don't think that they're GREAT, per se, but enjoyable. They've gotten a few people I know (who normally hate reading) interested in reading the HP series, so that's a good thing. I bought the first two myself, but I'm putting the third on my Christmas list... if I can get someone else pay for it, I'll consider myself lucky. :D --- carolynwhite2 wrote: > > Kneasy posted here one second before I put this up, but I'll post it > anyway. Troublemakers both. > > I guess I shouldn't be the person asking this, since my last post was > so tedious that it seems to have stopped all chat for nearly two > months...but is there a reason why this list is so quiet? > > - nothing left to say until Book 6? > - less interested in HP than before? > - no time to post here as well as elsewhere? > - ?? > > > Carolyn > Wondering if collecting together excerpts from everyone's first posts > would get people talking, or alternatively, get her thrown out. > > > > 'Is there anybody there?' said the Traveller, > Knocking on the moonlit door; > And his horse in the silence champed the grasses > Of the forest's ferny floor: > And a bird flew up out of the turret, > Above the Traveller's head > And he smote upon the door again a second time; > 'Is there anybody there?' he said. > But no one descended to the Traveller; > No head from the leaf-fringed sill > Leaned over and looked into his grey eyes, > Where he stood perplexed and still. > But only a host of phantom listeners > That dwelt in the lone house then > Stood listening in the quiet of the moonlight > To that voice from the world of men: > Stood thronging the faint moonbeams on the dark stair, > That goes down to the empty hall, > Hearkening in an air stirred and shaken > By the lonely Traveller's call. > And he felt in his heart their strangeness, > Their stillness answering his cry, > While his horse moved, cropping the dark turf, > 'Neath the starred and leafy sky; > For he suddenly smote on the door, even > Louder, and lifted his head:- > 'Tell them I came, and no one answered, > That I kept my word,' he said. > Never the least stir made the listeners, > Though every word he spake > Fell echoing through the shadowiness of the still house > From the one man left awake: > Ay, they heard his foot upon the stirrup, > And the sound of iron on stone, > And how the silence surged softly backward, > When the plunging hoofs were gone. > > The Listeners, Walter de la Mare > > > > ===== ~JoAnna~ Visit the baby's website for pictures and updates! http://www.geocities.com/j_wahlund __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 23:01:20 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 23:01:20 -0000 Subject: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "kneasy" > wrote: > > I do agree with Kneasy here (hear the sound of hell freezing again?) that movie is almost always best thought of as a vision of a book. > But Rowling's work, IMO, doesn't lend itself so nicely to that kind > of poetic reimagination. It's too fundamentally about the > storytelling--so if you botch that, you botch the real depths of the thing. I doubt there's enough in the movie of originality and beauty, enough space filled in by the visual aspects of the film (as music does for the literature-operas), to redeem the failures to the spirit of the original. > Carolyn, adding to the odd climatic conditions by not only responding to, but tentatively agreeing with Nora : IMO, this is part of the problem, but it goes further. The movie certainly mangles key plot elements, but it does so really badly because of the audience it is aimed at. It's a kids's film, despite Cuaron's track record. Sanitised, globalised, trivialised. POA is many people's favourite book because it is where the adult stories take off; the times that Shrieking Shack scene has been picked over are beyond counting; the theories which have been built around it; the gaps she leaves for the imagination to fill in... It's not necessary to include every plot detail of a book in a film adaptation, and any amount of artistic licence can be acceptable, as long as the spirit is there, but that's what's missing, IMO. I had stupidly hoped for an edgy, complex, more-or-less adult understanding of the book, especially with actors like Gambon and Rickman involved, but alas, no such luck. Yes, of course, lots of the set details were good - so they should be, on that budget - but they were just that, stage-sets, window- dressing. Stuff like the big clock, the jazz track in the Boggart scene, just tantalising glimpses of what Cuaron might have been able to do with the movie, given a chance. But, to my mind, this is all just part of the ruthless control- freakery that extends to many areas of the HP franchise/fandom, and to a certain extent may include JKR herself. There is a determination, in short, that these will be clean, decent, simple books about children growing up and nobly battling life's problems, winning the good fight etc etc. Terrific role models, nicely-wrapped packages of morality for use by parents and educators around the world. The films are designed to fit slap bang into this world view, not least in order to maximise sales. However, witness many furious battles on HPfGU, a tiresome subset of more robust adult minds find this interpretation not only boring and insipid, but unconvincing. That's the group that are still waiting for the grit, the uncertainty, the grey areas, the meaningful characterisation, the wit, the resonance..all the trivial little details that add up to a great film. But, mustn't disappoint the kiddies, eh? Carolyn Assuming hell's getting back up to a nice rolling boil again. From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 23:03:49 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:03:49 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? References: Message-ID: <024701c4d8c3$30c42600$01fea8c0@...> Carolyn asked: <...but is there a reason why this list is so quiet?> For me it's more of a "I' never speak" sort of deal. I honestly never contribute unless something is either very important to me or bugging the hell out of me. Plus I get embarrassed to post short things so I wait until I either have a lot to say or lump things together. It's not less of an interest in HP that's for darn sure, I spend more time now in the HP world then I did when I joined this list (well, actually, not at the moment as I was side tracked into a new fandom for the week). Give me about two years after book seven, then maybe I'll start to come away from my addiction to HP. :o) This list has always been generally quiet though, we fluctuate between long periods of silence and activity that lasts about a month. Depends on when a subject grabs us. Saitaina **** No story that starts with 'going down on someone' and ends with a trip to the ER can ever be good. http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 23:11:55 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:11:55 -0800 Subject: Movie VS Book and OotP Siri thrown in (was: Never again) References: Message-ID: <025501c4d8c4$52240b20$01fea8c0@...> Alright, here's a question since we all have varying opinions on the movie... Would how much you love the novel version of PoA effect how much you like the movie? I've seen those that LOVE the book that really hated the movie, and those that honestly didn't like the book, who loved the movie...so is it the difference between the media, the way the story's told, or just really freaky odds? For myself, I honestly don't like PoA the novel. For some reason it urks me (OoTP and CoS are my top faves right now). I read it when I have to remind myself of plot, but otherwise, I generally go from CoS to GoF when re-reading the series. So maybe it is the difference in visual representation that makes me like the movie...because I suddenly like Sirius a lot more then I did before (I wasn't upset about his death until after the movie). Speaking of Sirius, before OoTP, he didn't seem that unstable to me, but after OotP I saw more of what Azkaban did to him, am I the only one? Is this just because we didn't see much of him through three and four or did I just completely miss that he's a few Knuts short of a galleon? I know he's always been slightly...off but in OotP he was a bit more then slightly. Saitaina **** No story that starts with 'going down on someone' and ends with a trip to the ER can ever be good. http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rynnewrites at rynne_lupin.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 23:42:06 2004 From: rynnewrites at rynne_lupin.yahoo.invalid (Rynne) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:42:06 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Movie VS Book and OotP Siri thrown in (was: Never again) In-Reply-To: <025501c4d8c4$52240b20$01fea8c0@...> References: <025501c4d8c4$52240b20$01fea8c0@...> Message-ID: Saitaina: > Would how much you love the novel > version of PoA effect how much you like > the movie? I think so. A great many of my online friends say that PoA is their favorite of the books, and I agree with them. And it is because PoA is my favorite book that I have no desire to see the movie; to this day, I, like Nora, have not seen it, and after hearing about the things that Cuaron cut out and put in, I don't regret that decision. I've always loved the backstory of MWPP, and to hear that it's been cut...I still wince. And the spelling "Mooney" on the map--even though I know it's an inside joke, Remus Lupin remains my favorite character, and mispelling his nickname like that makes me want to start tearing hair out. Then there's Remus waxing poetic over Lily, even though it's really *James* that he reacts to in the book, and James who was one of his best friends. Though perhaps one of the things that annoys me the most about the movie, even without having seen it, is Super!Hermione. Not only does she take over Ron's line, which I consider to be the epitome of Ron, but one of Harry's as well! I'm told Hermione, in the movie, said the line, "NO! I trusted you! And All this time you've been his friend!" when it belongs to Harry, and, in fact, does not make sense in context when said by Hermione. Hermione's not the one who had those extra lessons with Remus, or any of that. That was Harry. Harry had more cause to trust Remus, and more cause for hurt when he believed Remus betrayed that trust. And of course, there's all the rest of the things Hermione did that make me cringe just thinking about them--the werewolf howl? WTF? I don't like the movies much. I didn't like PS/SS the movie, or CoS, and rather than watch my favorite of the books be mutilated, I decided to not watch it. I heartily prefer book canon, thanks. > Speaking of Sirius, before OoTP, he > didn't seem that unstable to me, but > after OotP I saw more of what Azkaban > did to him, am I the only one? Is this > just because we didn't see much of him > through three and four or did I just > completely miss that he's a few Knuts > short of a galleon? I know he's always > been slightly...off but in OotP he was > a bit more then slightly. > > Saitaina There's been quite a bit of discussion about this. I think the most simple answer is that, during GoF, Sirius was doing something he considered useful--watching over and advising Harry. In OotP, he was so much useless baggage; when Snape kept sniping at him about not being able to leave the house and do something useful, there wasn't much he could say. And too, bring in the Grimmauld Place has to be almost as full of nasty memories as Azkaban, I'm not surprised Sirius was losing it. I just sorta resent JKR for it being so sudden; couldn't she at least have shown the beginning of the disintigration of Sirius's control/sanity through letters to Harry, or something? --Rynne, who needs to get back working on her research paper From lists at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 2 23:48:05 2004 From: lists at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:48:05 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? In-Reply-To: <20041202222221.61550.qmail@...> References: <20041202222221.61550.qmail@...> Message-ID: <1102031288.16B1918@...> On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 6:24 pm, JoAnna Wahlund wrote: > > I'm a longtime lurker. I'm also eight months pregnant with my first > child, so between > dealing with the symptoms of pregnancy, trying to get ready for the > baby, and all the > hustle and bustle that comes with the holiday season... I don't have > much time for > posting. :) JoAnna - congratulations! There seems to be a baby boom in the fandom - JKR is having her third this spring, and I should be having my third 6-8 weeks after her - I know at least five other fandomers due between now & june, including at least one other on this list. For a while we had an active PotterParents yahoogrouo going - maybe we should re-activate the concept? Heidi Mama to 2 boys Due to have a girl in April From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 00:07:24 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (Jeralyn) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:07:24 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? References: <1102031288.16B1918@...> Message-ID: <000f01c4d8cc$122b1d80$8ed8b3d1@Study> Conratulations to all our future HP babies! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heidi Tandy" Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? > > > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 6:24 pm, JoAnna Wahlund wrote: >> >> I'm a longtime lurker. I'm also eight months pregnant with my first >> child, so between >> dealing with the symptoms of pregnancy, trying to get ready for the >> baby, and all the >> hustle and bustle that comes with the holiday season... I don't have >> much time for >> posting. :) > > JoAnna - congratulations! There seems to be a baby boom in the fandom - > JKR is having her third this spring, and I should be having my third 6-8 > weeks after her - I know at least five other fandomers due between now & > june, including at least one other on this list. > > For a while we had an active PotterParents yahoogrouo going - maybe we > should re-activate the concept? > > Heidi > Mama to 2 boys > Due to have a girl in April > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 00:03:26 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:03:26 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? References: <20041202222221.61550.qmail@...> <1102031288.16B1918@...> Message-ID: <028e01c4d8cb$852b88c0$01fea8c0@...> Heidi wrote: Which is by passing me completely. Really, so unfair. I want a baby!! (er, sorry, my biological clock took over my brain for a second..) Congrats to JoAnna and again to Heidi, even if I am jealous I love to hear about babies (or soon to be ones). Saitaina **** No story that starts with 'going down on someone' and ends with a trip to the ER can ever be good. http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 03:02:46 2004 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:02:46 -0600 Subject: Babies. Re: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? References: <20041202222221.61550.qmail@...> <1102031288.16B1918@...> <028e01c4d8cb$852b88c0$01fea8c0@...> Message-ID: <00e701c4d8e4$9248bc80$b459aacf@...> > Heidi wrote: > > to be a baby boom in the fandom - > Sait:> > Which is by passing me completely. > Really, so unfair. I want a baby!! *ahem* Said the night wind, to the mommy's ear, Do you hear what I hear? Waking you again, mommy dear, Do you hear what I hear? A child, a child, Crying in the night, And his dad is out like a light, Yes, his dad is out like a light. Said the mom to the daddy snoring there, Do you smell what I smell? Wake and deal with that, snoring dad, Do you smell what I smell? He pooped, he pooped, And I bet it leaked, So he's not just hungry, he reeks, Yes, he's not just hungry, he reeks. Said the dad to his hungry baby boy, Do you see what I see? Now that you're all clean, hungry boy, Do you see what I see? They're huge, they're great, Lovely sight to see, And they're all for you, not for me, Yes, they're all for you, not for me. Said the mom, to the daddy in the dark, Do you know what I know? As you lay him down, sneakily; Do you know what I know? He'll sleep, he'll sleep Close his little eyes For about an hour, till he cries, Till about an hour, when he cries. Said the dad, to the mom, in 18 months, Do you want what I want...? C'mon, sexy thing--he's asleep-- Do you want what I want? "Oh, yes"; "Do that"; And it goeth on, For we never, ever, will learn, No we never, ever will learn. ~Amanda. aka VoldeMom From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 10:52:23 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (kneasy) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:52:23 -0000 Subject: Is there anybody there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Neil Ward" wrote: > > Well... almost "all of the above", but "??" being the most interesting: > after being tied up and robbed at gunpoint in my flat at the end of October, > I'm moving into a rented flat this weekend. > > No folks, that wasn't a joke. And, Carolyn - your post was not tedious. > > Kneasy: Nasty. Very nasty. Hope the shock is wearing off and that the after effects aren't unmanageable. > > <<< It was the bastard off-spring of Gormenghast meets Malcolm in the > Middle. >>> > FFA: > ~~Swoon~~ That sounds *just* perfect! I don't think it's quite that good > though: to me it's not as grim and surreal as Gormenghast and not as sharp > and funny and as MitM. The kids in MitM are also far superior as actors to > those in the HP series. IMHO. > Kneasy: 'Scuse me a second. I must speak to my secretary. "Madam Whiplash? Please make a note in the FFA file. Intruigingly decadent with surrealist tendencies. We may be able to induce him to invest in our next epic - "Pooh! It's 1984 - on Ice!" with WtP as Winston Smith, Tigger as Julia, Owley as O'Brien and Christopher Robin as Big Brother. Put him on the Christmas card list. Thank you." Actually I agree with what you say. The sad truth is that all the accretions to HP show all the characteristics of a typical franchise, and like all franchises its sole primary function is to be a cash cow. Understandable and probably inevitable, but it does give the book purists an opportunity to rail against hubris - it was the fans that spread the word about this fantastic story and the bottom line merchants saw an opportunity opening up, Warners included. Now if we'd kept quiet.... Being of a pessimistic bent, I foresee the film franchise's future offerings degenerating from "a version" to "an adaptation" to "based on" - the final kiss of death. From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 15:41:38 2004 From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 07:41:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? In-Reply-To: <1102031288.16B1918@...> Message-ID: <20041203154138.81855.qmail@...> Sounds like a terrific idea to me! As a first-time mom, I know I'll be looking for advice wherever I can find it! :) BTW, do you know when JKR is due, other than "the spring"? I'm just curious; I thought she was due around the same time as me (January 20) for some reason. BTW... one of the names that actually made the short list for a girl's name was "Hermione." :P We eventually ended up eliminiating it for a variety of reasons, but it was in the top five for quite a while! And I will say that we are using an HP character name for our boy's middle name (and possibly for the first name as well). (And no, we're not telling anyone what our choices are until after the baby's born and the birth certificate is signed. That way, people can b*tch about the name we chose all they want and it'll be too late to do anything about it! :P) --- Heidi Tandy wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 6:24 pm, JoAnna Wahlund wrote: > > > > I'm a longtime lurker. I'm also eight months pregnant with my first > > child, so between > > dealing with the symptoms of pregnancy, trying to get ready for the > > baby, and all the > > hustle and bustle that comes with the holiday season... I don't have > > much time for > > posting. :) > > JoAnna - congratulations! There seems to be a baby boom in the fandom - > JKR is having her third this spring, and I should be having my third 6-8 > weeks after her - I know at least five other fandomers due between now & > june, including at least one other on this list. > > For a while we had an active PotterParents yahoogrouo going - maybe we > should re-activate the concept? > > Heidi > Mama to 2 boys > Due to have a girl in April > ===== ~JoAnna~ Visit the baby's website for pictures and updates! http://www.geocities.com/j_wahlund __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 18:22:02 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:22:02 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? References: <20041203154138.81855.qmail@...> Message-ID: <00c001c4d965$010251b0$220110ac@MainComputer> Hi -- Just thought I'd chime in with this baby news ---- congrats to JoAnna and to Heidi on having a girl! Our 2nd child, David Harry (to be called Harry), is due to arrive via c-section on Dec 28th! Yikes. Neither my husband nor my daughter was too keen on Hermione and as I couldn't find it anywhere on the family tree (our guidelines), it was never a consideration had we had another girl. But, I think it would have made a lovely name JoAnna! I actually had not heard "spring" with respect to JKR's impending arrival, but rather "after the first of the year" ... which suggested that she is due in Jan or perhaps early Feb. Penny ----- Original Message ----- From: JoAnna Wahlund To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? Sounds like a terrific idea to me! As a first-time mom, I know I'll be looking for advice wherever I can find it! :) BTW, do you know when JKR is due, other than "the spring"? I'm just curious; I thought she was due around the same time as me (January 20) for some reason. BTW... one of the names that actually made the short list for a girl's name was "Hermione." :P We eventually ended up eliminiating it for a variety of reasons, but it was in the top five for quite a while! And I will say that we are using an HP character name for our boy's middle name (and possibly for the first name as well). (And no, we're not telling anyone what our choices are until after the baby's born and the birth certificate is signed. That way, people can b*tch about the name we chose all they want and it'll be too late to do anything about it! :P) --- Heidi Tandy wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 6:24 pm, JoAnna Wahlund wrote: > > > > I'm a longtime lurker. I'm also eight months pregnant with my first > > child, so between > > dealing with the symptoms of pregnancy, trying to get ready for the > > baby, and all the > > hustle and bustle that comes with the holiday season... I don't have > > much time for > > posting. :) > > JoAnna - congratulations! There seems to be a baby boom in the fandom - > JKR is having her third this spring, and I should be having my third 6-8 > weeks after her - I know at least five other fandomers due between now & > june, including at least one other on this list. > > For a while we had an active PotterParents yahoogrouo going - maybe we > should re-activate the concept? > > Heidi > Mama to 2 boys > Due to have a girl in April > ===== ~JoAnna~ Visit the baby's website for pictures and updates! http://www.geocities.com/j_wahlund __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From macloudt at macloudt.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 18:49:25 2004 From: macloudt at macloudt.yahoo.invalid (Mary Jennings) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:49:25 +0000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there/babies In-Reply-To: <00e701c4d8e4$9248bc80$b459aacf@...> Message-ID: ***wipes eyes*** Oh, that's just fantastic. Thanks for sharing that. I'll add my congratulations to all our pregnant moms, and also add my relief that I'm not among them. ;) Mary Ann (single mom of 3) (and caffiene addict) (who should be doing housework) From gypsycaine at deeus2002106703.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 19:34:46 2004 From: gypsycaine at deeus2002106703.yahoo.invalid (gypsycaine at deeus2002106703.yahoo.invalid) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:34:46 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there/babies Message-ID: <1dea081debf7.1debf71dea08@...> Guess I count then. Yes, folks, the Dee is pregnant, 17 weeks (due c.May 15). :) Ian has informed me he does not want this child to be named Harry. Grins. Yes, I miss you all! Dee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 3 19:55:04 2004 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:55:04 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there/babies In-Reply-To: <1dea081debf7.1debf71dea08@...> Message-ID: Dee wrote: >Guess I count then. Yes, folks, the Dee is pregnant, 17 weeks (due c.May >15). :) Ian has informed me he does not want this child to be named >Harry. Grins. > >Yes, I miss you all! > >Dee Dee, Heidi, & Joanna, Congratulations & best wishes to all of you! Parker, never pregnant but a mum nevertheless From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 4 08:40:45 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 09:40:45 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Is there anybody there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Parker Brown Nesbit" wrote: > > >>Carolyn said: > >(Snppage) > >>is there a reason why this list is so quiet? >> >>- nothing left to say until Book 6? >>- less interested in HP than before? >>- no time to post here as well as elsewhere? >>- ?? >>> > >For me, it's a combination of nothing to say until HBP comes out and the >fact that I *still* haven't forgiven her for OotP. Same here. I'm not the one developing great theories anyway, most of the time I just react to other people's posts if a topic is important enough to me. In most cases, I chimed in when people started picking at Sirius ;), but I have said everything I had to say about him a long time ago. Oh, and before I forget, congratulations to everyone who is expecting a baby! Monika who never quite understood why so many people didn't seem to see that Sirius had (serious) mental problems. From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 4 08:40:44 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 09:40:44 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again In-Reply-To: <007d01c4d89e$77276780$220110ac@MainComputer> References: <200412021728.iB2HSFZd004999@...> <007d01c4d89e$77276780$220110ac@MainComputer> Message-ID: Hi all, "pennylin" wrote: >Yep ----- me too to what Steve said. I saw it in the theater oh .......only 4 times I think (which is a low for me, despite liking this film the best of all), but I've already watched the DVD 4 times too. I *love* it. Love it. 'tis the best so far by about 100%, but I'm not a huge fan of Columbus. I do like the filmic versions, though obviously the books are paramount to me. Yes, it's definitely a matter of opinion. I don't want to clutter up the list with a "me too" post, but I have to chime in here, too. Penny just summed it up for me as well. I like the first two movies and I do own them on DVD, but I'm not a Columbus fan either. Some things just look too much like "Home Alone [at Hogwarts]" to me. But I simply love PoA, and being a huge Sirius fan, I had my reservations about Gary Oldman when I first heard he would get the part. I think his performance is outstanding, just the right mix between Sirius's "unbalanced" side (which I always knew was there) and his caring, emotional side. It is not really important that he doesn't match my mental image of book Sirius. I have watched a couple of his other movies since and can only say he is a truly great actor. IMHO of course. Monika who has watched PoA only once on DVD but who will watch it again tomorrow. From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 4 14:09:10 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 01:09:10 +1100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again In-Reply-To: References: <200412021728.iB2HSFZd004999@...> <007d01c4d89e$77276780$220110ac@MainComputer> Message-ID: <20041204140910.GC22348@...> On Sat, Dec 04, 2004 at 09:40:44AM +0100, Monika Huebner wrote: > Hogwarts]" to me. But I simply love PoA, and being a huge Sirius fan, > I had my reservations about Gary Oldman when I first heard he would > get the part. I think his performance is outstanding, just the right > mix between Sirius's "unbalanced" side (which I always knew was there) > and his caring, emotional side. It is not really important that he > doesn't match my mental image of book Sirius. I have watched a couple > of his other movies since and can only say he is a truly great actor. > IMHO of course. Oldman was a major spur to watching the movie in the first place for me, the guy is really underrated outside of UK culture. One of those frighteningly good method actors. But face it, the movies needed a change in direction even though the topology of Hogwarts looks like a Sims fan took to it, and Harry & Co's idea of fun is getting creepy these days, which was an interesting point a few viewers noticed. Can't wait for ze next vun. -- Ancient C64 curses #201: A HEX on 53294! From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 4 16:20:28 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 16:20:28 -0000 Subject: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I enjoyed the DVD, though I liked the movie better in the theater. I love the Marauder backstory as much as anybody, but dramatizing it would be a nightmare; all flashback, doesn't involve the main characters, and a false resolution to boot. Nobody over the age of thirteen could possibly be satisfied with the adults' explanations of their actions in the book. It works because kids don't read analytically enough to see the problems, while adult readers either say, "Oh well, kidventure, who cares if it makes sense," or "Oh, my, Harry really missed something, didn't he?" I can't see how you would convey that dual outlook visually without hopelessly confusing the audience. I suspect many people were disappointed about the omissions because they were hoping for a clue from Jo about which reading is "right", a question she obviously isn't ready to answer. Pippin who was needless to say quite happy to see Lupin come across as just that little bit slimy -- what have I been telling you? From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 5 08:02:45 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:02:45 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Never again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51e5r01u6idifskpf0ourkpcmsapkgqu9i@...> "pippin_999" wrote: >Pippin >who was needless to say quite happy to see Lupin come across >as just that little bit slimy -- what have I been telling you? Slimy? Interesting. I know a lot of people were disappointed with David Thewlis because in their opinion he isn't handsome enough and not sexy enough for the part. Personally, I never saw Lupin as an overly handsome or sexy person in the book, so Thewlis' looks really don't matter to me. I think his interpretation of the part is interesting and I appreciated it more with each viewing of the movie, but the word "slimy" would never have occured to me in this context. Which part was slimy in your opinion? Just curious. Monika From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 5 08:02:46 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:02:46 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again In-Reply-To: <20041204140910.GC22348@...> References: <200412021728.iB2HSFZd004999@...> <007d01c4d89e$77276780$220110ac@MainComputer> <20041204140910.GC22348@...> Message-ID: sean dwyer wrote: >Oldman was a major spur to watching the movie in the first place for me, the >guy is really underrated outside of UK culture. One of those frighteningly >good method actors. Indeed. Unfortunately, I first saw him a couple of years ago in "The Fifth Element". I hated the movie and somehow he always looked as unpleasant in my memory as he looked in that movie, which didn't make me seek out more of his stuff. He seems to play unpleasant characters most of the time anyway, it was hard to find a movie where he didn't play a bad guy. If anyone wants to see how funny he can actually be, I'd recommend watching "Rosencrantz and Guldenstern", but this one is very "British". I think he himself said once that Hollywood didn't really know what to do with him and if they were casting people for a romantic comedy, he would be very low down on the list. >But face it, the movies needed a change in direction even >though the topology of Hogwarts looks like a Sims fan took to it, and Harry & >Co's idea of fun is getting creepy these days, which was an interesting point >a few viewers noticed. Can't wait for ze next vun. Oh, I was among the first to cheer when I heard Columbus wouldn't direct PoA. I hadn't seen any of Cuarn's stuff back then, but the thought of a Mexican directing a HP movie was somehow intriguing. I have added three more of Cuarn's movies to my DVD collection since then because I think he is great with visuals. His stuff is very stylish and I found myself liking it a lot. Monika From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 5 10:09:13 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 21:09:13 +1100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Never again In-Reply-To: References: <200412021728.iB2HSFZd004999@...> <007d01c4d89e$77276780$220110ac@MainComputer> <20041204140910.GC22348@...> Message-ID: <20041205100913.GD22348@...> On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:02:46AM +0100, Monika Huebner wrote: > Indeed. Unfortunately, I first saw him a couple of years ago in "The > Fifth Element". I hated the movie and somehow he always looked as > unpleasant in my memory as he looked in that movie, which didn't make > me seek out more of his stuff. He seems to play unpleasant characters > most of the time anyway, it was hard to find a movie where he didn't > play a bad guy. If anyone wants to see how funny he can actually be, > I'd recommend watching "Rosencrantz and Guldenstern", but this one is > very "British". I think he himself said once that Hollywood didn't > really know what to do with him and if they were casting people for a > romantic comedy, he would be very low down on the list. I first saw Oldman in 'Prick Up Your Ears' playing Joe Orton, and he was perfect. He went on to play a few roles that were very true to life and then Hollywood sucked him up like the vaccum cleaner it is. -- Ancient C64 curses #201: A HEX on 53294! From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 5 18:00:20 2004 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:00:20 -0000 Subject: Never again In-Reply-To: <200412021728.iB2HSFZd004999@...> Message-ID: The inimitable Kneasy wrote: I made a terrible mistake a couple of weeks ago. I watched the PoA DVD. Ginger sympathizes: I didn't. I bought the first one (I don't go into those youth- infested theatres except for Star Wars movies) and couldn't get past the part where Hagrid says he bought Fluffy from an Irishman without yelling at the screen. I didn't see CoS as I have a dreadful fear of snakes and the CoS book still gives me nightmares. I had no intention of seeing PoA, but I got a first hand review. I was working my usual weekend gig as a convenience store clerk on the graveyard shift (a job I recomend to cure anyone of any feelings of hope they may have for the human race. Last night I settled a bet on whether Europe was a country or a continent.) A middleaged woman who didn't know me from Adam blew in the door and announced that she had just seen PoA and ranted for about 5 minutes about everything they had changed and left out. She then asked me if I had ever read the books. I told her I was a member of HP4GU and she gave me one of those looks usually reserved for those who announce they got a new piercing, but can't show you unless you accompany them to the bathroom. I must admit to being a purist. It confuses the theorist in me to have conflicting sources. I envy those who can watch it as a seperate entity and enjoy it. More power to y'all. Neil, I hope you'll be ok. That must have been terrible. Congrats to all the parents to be. Joanna, I'll be watching the Forum for the announcement! Ginger From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 5 18:17:42 2004 From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 10:17:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041205181742.48981.qmail@...> > I must admit to being a purist. It confuses the theorist in me to > have conflicting sources. I envy those who can watch it as a > seperate entity and enjoy it. More power to y'all. > > Just out of curiousity, do you read any Harry Potter fanfiction? I think that's why I can reconcile myself to the flaws of the movies. I see them as glorified fanfic - one person's interpretation (or vision, if you will) of the HP series. The flaws don't bother me since they're just someone else's interpretation (or mistakes). Likewise, I enjoy reading (well-written) Harry Potter fanfic, but the books remain the true canon to me. ===== ~JoAnna~ Visit the baby's website for pictures and updates! http://www.geocities.com/j_wahlund __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 5 21:56:34 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:56:34 -0000 Subject: Lacktivity / PoS movie / OoP Sirius Message-ID: Carolyn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the _old_crowd/message/834 : << since my last post was so tedious that it seems to have stopped all chat for nearly two months >> That wasn't because of your post, that is the nature (alas) of this list. << but is there a reason why this list is so quiet? >> It seems to me that most members are reluctant to START a thread on this list, so there is silence until someone overcomes that reluctance. I have two reasons I feel reluctant to post other than a replay on this list: the chronologically first one was that I (all of us but the listowner, Neil) am really just a guest in this list, so it feels rude for me to use it as a soapbox to pontificate. The currently stronger one is that my pontifications don't get replies. Neil wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/841 : << after being tied up and robbed at gunpoint in my flat at the end of October I'm moving into a rented flat this weekend. >> Oh, Neil, how awful! That is so wrong -- exceptionally nice people like you should not be subjected to violence. Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_ old_crowd/message/833 : << I made a terrible mistake a couple of weeks ago. I watched the PoA DVD. (snip) PS was an enjoyable novelty; CoS - hmn, maybe not quite as good. But at least there was some continuity between the two. Not so with the third. >> Oh, Kneasy, I am part of the crowd that disagrees with you. I found the first movie *quite* disappointing; the second one somewhat less disappointing but maybe only because I had lowered my expectations. I hate Chris Columbus's cutesy AND pedantic recitations of the abridged plot. I *loved* the PoA movie. I could nitpick at great length about things I objected to: what Lupin turned into wasn't a werewolf, Lupin getting sentimental about Lily depleted my insulin, Sirius in the book wasn't mentally stable enough to say DD's line about "the dead whom we loved never really leave us", etc. Pansy is always described with blonde curls, NOT a dark crop. The PLOT of PoA novel was simply left out, and the Alan Rickman fans were deprived of their longed-for opportunity to watch him chew the Shrieking Shack set. That last complaint is the ONLY one that won't be solved by someday someone else will make decent movies of the Potter oeuvre. (Look how BAD the first several tries of making Lord of the Rings movies were.) Meanwhile, this movie was like an illustration, a gloss, Air on a Theme from PoA ... and I LOVED it. That IS what Hogwarts looks like (Columbus's moving staircases were just *wrong*. The kids were the characters so well I didn't notice their Muggle clothes. Cuaron somehow extracted decent music from John Williams (a miracle!) and funny jokes from Steven Kloves. The emotions in the story were there: the love, the hate, the fear, distrust ... filling the air like the fog. Saitaina wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/847 : << Would how much you love the novel version of PoA effect how much you like the movie? I've seen those that LOVE the book that really hated the movie, and those that honestly didn't like the book, who loved the movie...so is it the difference between the media, the way the story's told, or just really freaky odds? >> Well, in my case, PoA is my FAVORITE of the books, for the cliched reason that I'm in love with Remus. << Speaking of Sirius, before OoTP, he didn't seem that unstable to me, but after OotP I saw more of what Azkaban did to him, am I the only one? >> I personally thought he was more unstable in PoA than in OoP, but he didn't seem unstable at all in GoF. People have already posted the theories about how he was more stable when he was allowed to be active and get fresh air, and lost it when he was imprisoned in old bad memories (12 Grimmauld Place). Sirius losing it through OoP (except his temporary improvement when he had company over Christmas) is obvious enough that some readers have suggested that he was being poisoned by Kreachur with a potion actually MENTIONED in OoP: (UK ed p 340) "Midnight came and went while Harry was reading and re-reading a passage about the uses of scurvy-grass, lovage, and sneezewort and not taking in a word of it. 'These plantes are moste efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness...' Hermone said Sirius was becoming reckless cooped up in Grimmauld Place." (and his improvement over Christmas co-incided with Kreachur's absence.) It has been objected that Sirius's behavior in Grimmauld Place was enough in-character for him that people who had known him in the old days, Remus, Dumbledore, and even the paranoid Real!Moody, never suspected that someone was meddling with him. I don't recall anyone replying with a suggestion that none of them had ever known anyone who had survived 12 (nor even 10) years in Azkaban and therefore all assumed that his personality changes were due to that experience. I do recall two variants in which Remus didn't have to notice whether Sirius was in-character, because Remus was the one drugging him. One is ESE!Lupin and the other is that DD and Moody also knew, because Remus was acting on DD's orders because it was necessary to DD's plan that Sirius be killed by LV (APPARENTLY by LV) in the presence of Harry in order to activate Weapon!Harry. Sean Dwyer wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/861 : << But face it, the movies needed a change in direction even though (snip) Harry & Co's idea of fun is getting creepy these days, which was an interesting point a few viewers noticed. >> Creepy? Please explain, so I can know if it is something I noticed. Ginger wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_ old_crowd/message/866 : << I didn't see CoS as I have a dreadful fear of snakes and the CoS book still gives me nightmares. >> The CoS movie probably could give you a fear of spiders to match your fear of snakes. (Cue up a Change Wars joke.) From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 6 00:17:23 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:17:23 +1100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] re: Lacktivity / PoS movie / OoP Sirius In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041206001722.GA6828@...> On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:56:34PM -0000, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote: > << But face it, the movies needed a change in direction even though > (snip) Harry & Co's idea of fun is getting creepy these days, which > was an interesting point a few viewers noticed. >> > > Creepy? Please explain, so I can know if it is something I noticed. I wondered about the obvious enjoyment the Trio derived from Harry's invisible harrassment of Draco - it echoed the deeds of James & Co, and suggested that wizards have a cruel bent. Considering Harry's woebegotten childhood, methought he enjoyed it a little too much. It was a deliberate scene, and I saw some significance in that. -- Ancient C64 curses #201: A HEX on 53294! From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 6 01:10:49 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:10:49 +1100 Subject: HP high in favourites poll. Message-ID: <20041206011049.GA26244@...> Down here in God's own country, we had a little poll to find Australia's favourite book. In the top 100, HP did very well: 6. OoP 15. PoA 36. GoF tied with Power of One (Bryce Courenay) 59. CoS 93. PS The number one was, of course, The Lord of the Rings. I was surprised that no. 2 was Pride & Prejudice. The bible came in 3rd, bit of a miracle. To see the full list go here: http://www.abc.net.au/myfavouritebook/top10/100.htm The top 10 was the subject of a very entertaining ABC program. Much relief that HP made it to the top 10 and interesting that it should be the latest book. -- Ancient C64 curses #201: A HEX on 53294! From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 6 10:58:27 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (kneasy) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 10:58:27 -0000 Subject: Never again (Plus a bit on GQ) Message-ID: Of the opinions expressed Kneasy seems to be among the minority. 'Twas ever thus. Maybe the reason my critical edge is so unforgiving is because I see very few films at the cinema. The last time? - Oh, two years ago IIRC. There's no cinema in this town - the nearest is 20 miles away, I gave up owning a car 15 years ago when I realised it sat at the back of my house unused for 98% of the time, depreciating and deteriorating. Consequently actually making the effort to see a new release is no minor undertaking, though the cinema I favour - small, single screen, an adjunct to a local theatre/music hall - is friendly and has overtones reminiscent of "The Smallest Show on Earth." Margaret Rutherford would fit in almost un-noticed. So I buy DVDs of the stuff I want to see - but it's amazing how few you feel inclined to buy once the furore of the publicity of Opening Nights, interviews and reviews associated with a blockbuster release have died down. It's no longer a "must see", more a " maybe I'll wait until it shows on TV and then decide." It's also amazing how often "mature reflection" runs hand-in-hand with "can't be bothered", particularly when the film/DVD in question is an adaptation of a well-loved book. I just know I'll be foaming at the mouth with rage at the so-called interpretation perpetrated by some pretentious smartarse hack director more interested in enhancing his Hollywood credentials than in transfering a wonder of words into an entrancement of images. Thus it was with PoA. OK, it doesn't matter that the Hogwarts environs are presented as a second rate version of Cobweb Castle ( Ah! Kurosawa! Now there was a director who could do an adaptation that actually *added* something to the original), but when they start messing around with plot elements I get very restive indeed. You'd think I'd have learned by now, but all too often it's a case of the triumph of hope over experience followed by those fateful words "Never again." This time I mean it. I think. Galaxy Quest fitted the paradigm of my usual buying habits; seen on TV, thoroughly enjoyed it, bought a copy to enjoy it again, and again. Rickman was fun, but being an un-reconstructed, un-PC old-fashioned male, I was much more impressed at the way Ms S. Weaver evidenced attributes generally neglected in her previous oeuvre. Drool. Kneasy From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 6 13:12:51 2004 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 07:12:51 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] re: Lacktivity / PoS movie / OoP Sirius References: <20041206001722.GA6828@...> Message-ID: <002401c4db95$75a3dde0$9d59aacf@...> Considering we'd just had a thread here about babies, I'm not even going to go into what my first reaction to "Lacktivity" was... ~Amanda ----- Original Message ----- From: "sean dwyer" To: Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [the_old_crowd] re: Lacktivity / PoS movie / OoP Sirius > On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:56:34PM -0000, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote: > > > << But face it, the movies needed a change in direction even though > > (snip) Harry & Co's idea of fun is getting creepy these days, which > > was an interesting point a few viewers noticed. >> > > > > Creepy? Please explain, so I can know if it is something I noticed. > > I wondered about the obvious enjoyment the Trio derived from Harry's > invisible harrassment of Draco - it echoed the deeds of James & Co, and > suggested that wizards have a cruel bent. Considering Harry's woebegotten > childhood, methought he enjoyed it a little too much. It was a deliberate > scene, and I saw some significance in that. > > -- > Ancient C64 curses #201: A HEX on 53294! > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 6 14:20:36 2004 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:20:36 -0000 Subject: Never again In-Reply-To: <20041205181742.48981.qmail@...> Message-ID: JoAnna asked me: > Just out of curiousity, do you read any Harry Potter fanfiction? > > I think that's why I can reconcile myself to the flaws of the movies. I see them as > glorified fanfic - one person's interpretation (or vision, if you will) of the HP series. > The flaws don't bother me since they're just someone else's interpretation (or > mistakes). Likewise, I enjoy reading (well-written) Harry Potter fanfic, but the books > remain the true canon to me. You know, I haven't read any. I have heard that there is some great stuff out there. I'm sure there is some that isn't, but isn't that the way it goes? I am waiting until the series is done so I won't get confused. I have about a 3 second attention span, so I would constantly be checking the books to see if something was real or not. I just reread my last sentance. Maybe that's my problem. I think of the books as being real. Hmm, must find a good therapist. I do apologize for misspelling your name in my last post, JoAnna. Take care, everyone, Ginger From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 6 14:28:23 2004 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:28:23 -0000 Subject: spiders (was Re: Lacktivity / PoS movie / OoP Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote: > << I didn't see CoS as I have a dreadful fear of snakes and the CoS > book still gives me nightmares. >> Catlady said: > The CoS movie probably could give you a fear of spiders to match your > fear of snakes. (Cue up a Change Wars joke.) Sorry, no jokes pop into the head right now. Maybe after I get some sleep. I don't worry about the spiders. I used to try to keep them as pets. I have a huge stuffed one named Arnie that I got in High School because I was such a spider advocate. Hey, we all need a cause. Snakes, nope. I can't even touch the page of a book that has a picture of one on it. What I wonder is whether we'll see Aragog again in the books or if he was a one hit wonder. And if we see him, will he be friend or foe? Ginger From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 7 03:38:17 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:38:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: POA movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041207033817.50209.qmail@...> I agree with you Monika. I am not "in love" with Sirius but I thought Gary Oldman might not be a good choice until I actually saw the movie. I also liked the look and feel of this movie. It reminded me of an old Christopher Lee movie with the lighting and the feel of a horror movie in some places. I think this movie represents the break from young kids stories to preteen stories just like POA changes the complexity of the storyline to a slightly more mature audience. Of course, GOF should be even more so. I could see the feel of this movie working well in the graveyard scenes. I still can't wait to see how they do the "Voldemort soup" at the end. We always told my son Brian that Voldemort probably looked liked Squidward on Spongebob Squarepants. Sounds odd, but you know some people would give their right arm for a taste of Voldemort soup! ;0) Red Eye Randy --- Monika Huebner wrote: > Hi all, > > "pennylin" wrote: > > >Yep ----- me too to what Steve said. I saw it in > the theater oh .......only 4 times I think (which is > a low for me, despite liking this film the best of > all), but I've already watched the DVD 4 times too. > I *love* it. Love it. 'tis the best so far by > about 100%, but I'm not a huge fan of Columbus. I > do like the filmic versions, though obviously the > books are paramount to me. Yes, it's definitely a > matter of opinion. > > I don't want to clutter up the list with a "me too" > post, but I have > to chime in here, too. Penny just summed it up for > me as well. I like > the first two movies and I do own them on DVD, but > I'm not a Columbus > fan either. Some things just look too much like > "Home Alone [at > Hogwarts]" to me. But I simply love PoA, and being a > huge Sirius fan, > I had my reservations about Gary Oldman when I first > heard he would > get the part. I think his performance is > outstanding, just the right > mix between Sirius's "unbalanced" side (which I > always knew was there) > and his caring, emotional side. It is not really > important that he > doesn't match my mental image of book Sirius. I have > watched a couple > of his other movies since and can only say he is a > truly great actor. > IMHO of course. > > Monika > who has watched PoA only once on DVD but who will > watch it again > tomorrow. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 7 16:55:39 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 16:55:39 -0000 Subject: Never again In-Reply-To: <51e5r01u6idifskpf0ourkpcmsapkgqu9i@...> Message-ID: > >Pippin > >who was needless to say quite happy to see Lupin come across as just that little bit slimy -- what have I been telling you? Monika: > Slimy? Interesting. I know a lot of people were disappointed with David Thewlis because in their opinion he isn't handsome enough and not sexy enough for the part. Personally, I never saw Lupin as an overly handsome or sexy person in the book, so Thewlis' looks really don't matter to me. I think his interpretation of the part is interesting and I appreciated it more with each viewing of the movie but the word "slimy" would never have occured to me in this context. Which part was slimy in your opinion? Just curious. Pippin: The Hitler mustache has already been mentioned. Then there's the line about "She was there for me at a time when no one else was." (not quoting exactly). To me there was something just a little bit oily about the way that line is delivered, and the line itself twinges with self-pity. Pippin From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 7 17:22:39 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:22:39 -0000 Subject: Never again, Lupin.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > >who was needless to say quite happy to see Lupin come > across as just that little bit slimy -- what have I been telling you? > > Monika: > Which part was slimy in your opinion? Just curious. > > Pippin: > The Hitler mustache has already been mentioned. Then there's > the line about "She was there for me at a time when no one else > was." (not quoting exactly). To me there was something just a > little bit oily about the way that line is delivered, and the line > itself twinges with self-pity. > Carolyn: I find I cannot resist, Pippin. I came across an old exchange in the archives recently (post 28600, see below). Ahem, just wondered on your current views about the technique of deduction, given the many and wonderous rooms that now comprise the ESE!Lupin theory ?? (Who hastens to add that she has nothing but admiration for the edifice, and only wonders whether it was Lupin OR Peter, or only Lupin, or Sirius, Lupin AND Peter what did it...). --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > So is canon what is actually stated in the books? Or is it also what we deduce from them? IMO, the term 'canon' should be reserved for texts of the books and interviews with JKR. We rely on the machinery of the publishing and journalism industries to authenticate these, although there's always a possibility we're being Skeetered. However, as to interpretations, no one (not even Steve, bless him!) has the authority to determine what is an orthodox interpretation and what isn't. So although Steve may hold that deductions from canonical information are themselves canonical, I respectfully disagree. We can't rely on deduction because we can't assume that the Potterverse is logically consistent, in fact we know it is not. It is "catastrophic": subject to the whims of its creator rather than to natural law. Another example might make this clearer: All werewolves transform when the full moon rises (JKR interview) Remus Lupin did not transform when the full moon rose (PoA) Therefore Remus Lupin is not a werewolf. ;) Pippin "The truth is out there. The lies are all inside your head." --Terry Pratchett From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 7 23:07:31 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 23:07:31 -0000 Subject: Never again, Lupin.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" wrote: > Carolyn: > I find I cannot resist, Pippin. I came across an old exchange in the archives recently (post 28600, see below). Ahem, just wondered on your current views about the technique of deduction, given the many and wonderous rooms that now comprise the ESE!Lupin theory ?? > > (Who hastens to add that she has nothing but admiration for the edifice, and only wonders whether it was Lupin OR Peter, or only Lupin, or Sirius, Lupin AND Peter what did it...). Pippin: Why thank you! My views on deduction have not changed. I don't think I've ever said that ESE!Lupin is a deduction. It's a guess or rather an interlinked series of guesses. I like to think they're educated guesses, but for some reason the theory strikes many people as subversive, or maybe completely barmy. ::shrugs:: I don't have to convince anybody, fortunately. That's JKR's job . JKR seldom gives you enough clues to deduce the answer. Even if you solve the Tom Marvolo Riddle anagram, it doesn't *prove* Riddle is LV, though it should make you highly suspicious of the diary. The only part of ESE!Lupin that I claim as canon are the mysteries themselves. Pippin "The truth is out there. The lies are all inside your head." --Terry Pratchett From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Wed Dec 8 17:18:44 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:18:44 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] POA movie In-Reply-To: <20041207033817.50209.qmail@...> References: <20041207033817.50209.qmail@...> Message-ID: Randy Estes wrote: >I am not "in love" with Sirius but I thought Gary >Oldman might not be a good choice until I actually saw >the movie. Well, let's say I convinced myself he was a good choice a while before I actually saw the movie, when the shock of him getting the part had worn off a bit. ;-) Unlike other people I didn't have a preference for a particular actor, maybe that made it easier. I just wanted someone who could act and hoped the makeup artist would do the rest, that is a decent job on his looks. I have to say I am still satisfied with what I got. > I also liked the look and feel of this >movie. It reminded me of an old Christopher Lee movie >with the lighting and the feel of a horror movie in >some places. May I ask which one? >I think this movie represents the break from young >kids stories to preteen stories just like POA changes >the complexity of the storyline to a slightly more >mature audience. Of course, GOF should be even more >so. I could see the feel of this movie working well >in the graveyard scenes. Let's hope the director won't waste too much time on the three tasks and the Yule Ball. To tell the truth I would have been grateful if the ball had been left out, but apparently they are filming it. And if they want to cram all this into 2 1/2 hours, there won't be a lot of time left for the climax scene. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. >I still can't wait to see >how they do the "Voldemort soup" at the end. We >always told my son Brian that Voldemort probably >looked liked Squidward on Spongebob Squarepants. >Sounds odd, but you know some people would give their >right arm for a taste of Voldemort soup! ;0) LOL. Monika From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Wed Dec 8 17:18:43 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:18:43 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Never again In-Reply-To: References: <51e5r01u6idifskpf0ourkpcmsapkgqu9i@...> Message-ID: "pippin_999" wrote: I said: > Which part was slimy in your opinion? Just curious. > >Pippin: >The Hitler mustache has already been mentioned. Then there's >the line about "She was there for me at a time when no one else >was." (not quoting exactly). To me there was something just a >little bit oily about the way that line is delivered, and the line >itself twinges with self-pity. Oh well, yes, one might perceive it as self-pity, but I honestly didn't. I wonder if this was part of the "foreshadowing" JKR noticed in the movie. If we will actually hear more about this, I think more than a few people will be throwing their books across the room. :-) As for the "Hitler mustache" I have to disagree. Can't remember if it was really mentioned on this list, and I don't read the main list. No offence meant, but whoever brought this up has never had a proper look at Hitler. Lupin has a mustache all right, but it does *not* resemble the one Hitler had which mainly consisted of a lot of bushy hair right under the nose and nothing on the sides. I'm really not a fan of mustaches either, but look again at Lupin's, it's different. Of course you don't have to like it, just note it's different. ;) Monika From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 9 23:24:19 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 23:24:19 -0000 Subject: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Monika: > > As for the "Hitler mustache" I have to disagree. Can't remember if it was really mentioned on this list, and I don't read the main list. No offence meant, but whoever brought this up has never had a proper look at Hitler. Lupin has a mustache all right, but it does *not* resemble the one Hitler had which mainly consisted of a lot of bushy hair right under the nose and nothing on the sides. I'm really not a fan of mustaches either, but look again at Lupin's, it's different. Of course you don't have to like it, just note it's different. ;) > Pippin: Seems to me, if it looks enough like a Hitler moustache that people wonder if that's what it is -- "Lupin Hitler mustache OR moustache" found a couple of hundred Google hits-- then the filmmakers intended that effect or they just plain made a mistake. Sorry. My crystal ball is just as cloudy as everyone else's, but my guess is that just like all her other "surprise" revelations, JKR could prepare the ground well enough for ESE!Lupin that the only shock readers receive will be that they didn't realize it sooner. I'm thinking not too many books will be thrown across the room. OTOH, those of us who can't resist imagining detailed outcomes may well be disappointed whatever JKR has in store --- in the distant past, when dinosaurs ruled the earth and SW ROTJ had just been released, I had a hard time adjusting to Luke being Leia's brother because I had shipped them so long. Pippin From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 10 02:39:37 2004 From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 02:39:37 +0000 Subject: Lupin's 'tache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20041210022156.009857f0@...> I've been out of the loop for several months and hope to have the time in the next few days to have more to say on several subjects which have been raised recently. In the meantime, a short reply to this, before I go to bed. Pippin wrote: >Pippin: >Seems to me, if it looks enough like a Hitler moustache that >people wonder if that's what it is -- "Lupin Hitler mustache >OR moustache" found a couple of hundred Google hits-- then >the filmmakers intended that effect or they just plain made a >mistake. Sorry. An alternative viewpoint... "Lupin Thewlis mustache OR moustache -Hitler" gives over 500 hits, so the Hitler connection is a significantly minority view. Besides, we don't know how many of the people making these comments have ever actually bothered to noticed what's distinctive about the Chancellor's style of trimming his 'tache, namely that height-wise it fills the area between the upper lip and the base of the nose and width-wise doesn't extend beyond the width of the nose. Thewlis's attempt fails on both counts. If anything, I'd compare it to the pencil 'tache e.g. Clark Gable sported - pencil 'taches were very fashionable in the UK in the 40s which seems to be the period which inspired Thewlis's appearance. (Making allowances, of course, for hair colour and density). They were *particularly* popular with junior military officers and school teachers... Furthermore, looking at a few of the pages which Google spits out with the connection, it seems that most of them actually end up dismissing the connection... Personally, I never made the connection and frankly hadn't encountered anyone making it until just now. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, scratching his head From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 10 03:50:05 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 21:50:05 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Never again References: Message-ID: <01de01c4de6b$5abab930$220110ac@MainComputer> Hi -- Just chiming in briefly to say that I did not have the sense that Thewlis' mustache was reminiscent of Hitler at all, and I agree with Gulplum on why it just doesn't match up and on why it seems in keeping with a certain 1940-ish British look in my mind. But, I couldn't agree more with Pippin in that Rowling is perfectly capable of making revelations that might leave a vast majority of readers saying, "Ah, man, why didn't *I* notice that" and leaving the minority who did notice it chortling with glee. Ahem. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 10 06:11:10 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (Jeralyn) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:11:10 -0800 Subject: Anywho... References: <01de01c4de6b$5abab930$220110ac@MainComputer> Message-ID: <000c01c4de7f$0bfa9180$7fdab3d1@Study> Just to change the subject completely... I was going through my collection this evening, and was absolutely delighted to find my Harry Potter playing cards. They were in a trading cards carton. I thought I'd lost them during 9/11 of 2001. They had been among my favorite collectibles. I guess I'd cosolidated boxes during our move and had forgotten about them. Anyway, I was ecstatic to find them and got all teary-eyed at seeing them again. Yes, I'm a dork. I'll admit it freely. Neil, I'm glad everything is okay. I've been thinking about you ever since you told us your ordeal. Jeralyn, the Voicelady From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 10 20:46:20 2004 From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:46:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione is how old? Message-ID: Ali crows... Hermione was nearly 12 when she arrived at Hogwarts. JKR has confirmed this fact here: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=90 It's really nice to be right about something - especially something that I've been involved in so many arguments over- and after failing on some of my pet theories such as Dudley finding magic late in life, I was delighted to discover that JKR hadn't let me done over Hermione's age. I have meant to reply to so many posts recently, not least the discussion on PoA, and congratulations to all the Mums-to-be, but Hermione's age finally forced me into print. Ali, Summoning you all to Accio http://www.accio.org.uk From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 11 01:31:38 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:31:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Revelations In-Reply-To: <01de01c4de6b$5abab930$220110ac@MainComputer> Message-ID: <20041211013138.41135.qmail@...> Revelations like when we find out that the elf revolution is the big event to come! I assume the Giants and the Elves join together to save the day! And when Voldemort mistakes Neville for Harry or vice versa. What Revelations are you guys expecting? The often ignored but refuses to go away! RED EYE RANDY --- pennylin wrote: > But, I couldn't agree more with Pippin in that > Rowling is perfectly capable of making revelations > that might leave a vast majority of readers saying, > "Ah, man, why didn't *I* notice that" and leaving > the minority who did notice it chortling with glee. > Ahem. > > Penny > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 11 14:02:46 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:02:46 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Never again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55tlr0lr83279c58nebmvgqa5qdgmpia8r@...> >Pippin said: >My crystal ball is just as cloudy as everyone else's, but my >guess is that just like all her other "surprise" revelations, JKR >could prepare the ground well enough for ESE!Lupin that the >only shock readers receive will be that they didn't realize it >sooner. Now this would really surprise me. I think it is highly unlikely given the fact that she always says he is one of her favourites along with Harry, Hagrid and Dumbledore. Of course you can argue that one can have a villain as a favourite, but what she uses to say about Lupin doesn't leave much room for interpretation. IMHO of course. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and though she always succeeded in surprising me with her ideas, Lupin is written as a nice (and good) guy. >OTOH, those of us who can't resist imagining detailed outcomes >may well be disappointed whatever JKR has in store --- in the >distant past, when dinosaurs ruled the earth and SW ROTJ had >just been released, I had a hard time adjusting to Luke being >Leia's brother because I had shipped them so long. Oh my. You really did that to poor Leia? :-) Monika who could never stand Luke Skywalker. From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 11 19:35:11 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (Jeralyn) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:35:11 -0800 Subject: Harry Potter joke Message-ID: <001501c4dfb8$88ab4a00$ae81b3d1@Study> So. I'm currently rereading GOF, and have stumbled upon something I think would be fun. In the opening feast, Dumbledore begins a joke: "...I did hear an excellent one over the summer about a troll, a hag, and a leprechaun who all go into a bar..." Unfortunately, McGonagall cuts him off before he can finish. So your mission, should you choose to accept, is to finish the joke. Any takers? From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 11 23:01:33 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:01:33 -0000 Subject: Lacktivity / PoS movie / OoP Sirius In-Reply-To: <20041206001722.GA6828@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, sean dwyer wrote about "Creepy": << I wondered about the obvious enjoyment the Trio derived from Harry's invisible harrassment of Draco - it echoed the deeds of James & Co, and suggested that wizards have a cruel bent. Considering Harry's woebegotten childhood, methought he enjoyed it a little too much. It was a deliberate scene, and I saw some significance in that. >> I don't know, except your comment reminds me of some comments made about audiences heartily enjoying the CoS scenes of Aunt Marge expanding and blowing away, comments comparing people laughing at someone screaming helplessly in mid-air with the abuse of the Robertses in GoF book. And that this list has had lots of activity this week! Even comments to *me*! From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 11 23:07:28 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:07:28 -0000 Subject: Never again (Plus a bit on GQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "kneasy" wrote: > > Maybe the reason my critical edge is so unforgiving is because I see > very few films at the cinema. The last time? - Oh, two years ago > IIRC. While I've been wondering if my critical edge is overly accepting because I see so few films at all. While lately I have been going to the cinema like THREE times a year (twice for the annual Potter movie, once for the annual LOTR movie, once for FAHRENHEIT 911, once for CHICAGO, once for the movie about Terry Gilliam's failure to make a Don Quixote movie... I am deeply irritated that I didn't get around to seeing the re-release of THE BATTLE OF ALGIERS), I don't see movies on DVD or video or TV at all, unless it is a social event at my friends' house, which is how I saw GALAXY QUEST, which was indeed wonderful. From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 11 23:18:19 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:18:19 -0000 Subject: Hermione is how old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > Ali crows... > > Hermione was nearly 12 when she arrived at Hogwarts. JKR has > confirmed this fact here: > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=90 Thank you, Ali, I would eventually have found it when I found time to re-visit jkr's site, but your announcement led me to it right now, and then I checked the Lexicon and saw the Holiday artwork on the front page http://www.hp-lexicon.org/index-2.html which I might overwise have missed. I always thought Hermione was born 1979 because I trusted you Brits who explained that the cut-off day is always Sept 1, but then it seemed that JKR had confirmed 1980 because (was it the CoS DVD?) included a time-line showing Hermione born that year ... I was hoping the "What's New" on the Lexicon would include some remark on reconciling these sources, but no, it only suffers over the Weasley ages. > Summoning you all to Accio http://www.accio.org.uk I'd love to go, but the dollar's exchange rate to the pound is not helpful. From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 11 23:33:59 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:33:59 +1100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Lacktivity / PoS movie / OoP Sirius In-Reply-To: References: <20041206001722.GA6828@...> Message-ID: <20041211233359.GC10989@...> On Sat, Dec 11, 2004 at 11:01:33PM -0000, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote: > I don't know, except your comment reminds me of some comments made > about audiences heartily enjoying the CoS scenes of Aunt Marge > expanding and blowing away, comments comparing people laughing at > someone screaming helplessly in mid-air with the abuse of the > Robertses in GoF book. Well I watched the DVD again (just to be sure, of course), and it seems all of a piece with Hermione's comment that punching out Draco 'felt good'. It could be that we're being set up for a Wizard War and that feeling good about beating up the Other Side, unfair advantages included, is important psychological preparation. It just feels different to the way it's presented in the book, it gives me the niggles. And I suddenly wonder: is there something important about the WW that Harry hasn't understood yet? Or been told about? That's staring us in the face perhaps? > And that this list has had lots of activity this week! Even comments > to *me*! Nothing like a DVD clue hunt to freshen the party mood :) -- Ancient C64 curses #201: A HEX on 53294! From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 12 06:08:41 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:08:41 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: <55tlr0lr83279c58nebmvgqa5qdgmpia8r@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Monika Huebner wrote: > >Pippin said: > > >My crystal ball is just as cloudy as everyone else's, but my > >guess is that just like all her other "surprise" revelations, JKR > >could prepare the ground well enough for ESE!Lupin that the > >only shock readers receive will be that they didn't realize it > >sooner. > > Now this would really surprise me. I think it is highly unlikely given the fact that she always says he is one of her favourites along with Harry, Hagrid and Dumbledore. Of course you can argue that one can have a villain as a favourite, but what she uses to say about Lupin doesn't leave much room for interpretation. IMHO of course. < Pippin: Rowling has described Nabakov's Lolita as one of her favorite books and "a great and tragic love story", so she has no problems with making an unsavory character sympathetic. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/0500-heraldsun-te mpleton.html She also stresses that Lupin has flaws and is damaged. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2002/1102-fraser-scots man.html > Professor Lupin, who appears in the third book, is one of my favourite characters. He's a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and disability< She agrees that sometimes we need to be suspicious of helpful people http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-cbc-rogers.ht m >Lauren: In all your books, the continuing theme is that people are not what they appear to be. Sometimes they seem dangerous, and are good. Sometimes helpful people are bad. It looks like Harry is being taught to overlook first impressions and to be suspicious of people. Do you think that's something kids need to learn more than other generations? Rowling: You're right, this is a recurring theme in the books. People are endlessly surprising. It's a very jaded person who thinks they've seen every possible nuance of human nature. < The latest web site update, which makes it clear that the Lestranges were *sent* after the Longbottoms, gives a nice boost to ESE!Lupin theory. Presumably, Voldemort's second in command did the sending. It can't have been Peter, because he was already presumed dead. It's unlikely to have been Lucius, because Voldemort criticizes him for not trying to find him. Of course Voldie could have been lying, but why? Pippin From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 12 15:46:12 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:46:12 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Lupin quotes In-Reply-To: References: <55tlr0lr83279c58nebmvgqa5qdgmpia8r@...> Message-ID: <78por09dm26r0st8og42v3bgkhm44b7fpo@...> >Pippin: >Rowling has described Nabakov's Lolita as one of her favorite >books and "a great and tragic love story", so she has no >problems with making an unsavory character sympathetic. Certainly not, but I'm very much afraid this will be Snape. ;-0 Still, I hope she will come up with something different than a sappy, tragic love story. >She also stresses that Lupin has flaws and is damaged. I surely don't have a problem with loving a flawed, damaged character. Sirius certainly is, and that's what makes him so interesting in my eyes. But Lupin's flaws aren't the flaws you would give to a "villain", they are common human flaws that make a character more real. "Saints" or any people who always behave well are utterly boring to read about. >> Professor Lupin, who appears in the third book, is one of my >favourite characters. He's a damaged person, literally and >metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that >adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a >werewolf is a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and >disability< Yes, of course he has a disability, but I still don't get why this makes him a candidate for being ESE. She also said the following about him in the Royal Albert Hall: >| Lupin's failing is he likes to be liked. That's where he slips up - >|he's been disliked so often he's always pleased to have >|friends so cuts them an awful lot of slack. This sounded like it was his "major" flaw. It's why he seemingly never told James or Sirius off when they were at school, and of course it is the reason why he can't bring himself to telling Dumbledore that Sirius is an Animagus in PoA. >She agrees that sometimes we need to be suspicious of helpful >people > >http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-cbc-rogers.ht >m > >>Lauren: In all your books, the continuing theme is that people >are not what they appear to be. Sometimes they seem >dangerous, and are good. Sometimes helpful people are bad. It >looks like Harry is being taught to overlook first impressions and >to be suspicious of people. Do you think that's something kids >need to learn more than other generations? > > >Rowling: You're right, this is a recurring theme in the books. >People are endlessly surprising. It's a very jaded person who >thinks they've seen every possible nuance of human nature. < Okay, I know I'm repeating myself, but I still don't see why this would make Lupin of all people ESE. >The latest web site update, which makes it clear that the >Lestranges were *sent* after the Longbottoms, gives a nice >boost to ESE!Lupin theory. Presumably, Voldemort's second in >command did the sending. It can't have been Peter, because he >was already presumed dead. It's unlikely to have been Lucius, >because Voldemort criticizes him for not trying to find him. Of >course Voldie could have been lying, but why? Lucius wasn't the only Death Eater at large at the time. I suppose there were quite a few of them who would have wanted to know Voldy's whereabouts. The idea that a baby had destroyed him must have been too fantastic to many people. I'd rather think Barty Crouch might have sent the Lestranges after the Longbottoms. He was caught and tried together with them, but this isn't really a proof he was with them when they were tortured. I understood that they did the torturing. Or he was with them but had coaxed them to do it in the first place. After all, he claimed himself to be Voldemort's "most faithful servant". And it surely wasn't difficult to get the Lestranges to do something to find Voldy, I rather got the impression that Bellatrix and Tom were closer than Mr. Lestrange might have liked. Monika From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 12 17:08:30 2004 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:08:30 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter joke In-Reply-To: <001501c4dfb8$88ab4a00$ae81b3d1@Study> Message-ID: Jeralyn asked for it. Remember that. > I'm currently rereading GOF, and have stumbled upon something I think would > be fun. In the opening feast, Dumbledore begins a joke: > > "...I did hear an excellent one over the summer about a troll, a hag, and a > leprechaun who all go into a bar..." > > Unfortunately, McGonagall cuts him off before he can finish. > > So your mission, should you choose to accept, is to finish the joke. Any > takers? A troll, a hag and a leprechaun all go into a bar. The place is packed. The band is playing. There's hardly a seat left open. As soon as they walk in, the troll takes a run towards the bar, scattering patrons left and right and toppling drinks. As soon as he reaches the end of the bar, he hits it with his club, and keeps running, smashing it lengthwise. The hag glares down at the leprechaun and says, "You just had to tell him we were expecting a really big bash." Ok, it's the best I could do off the top of my head. Take care, y'all, Ginger From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 12 17:09:38 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:09:38 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Harry Potter joke References: Message-ID: <00db01c4e06d$5db1b180$01fea8c0@...> ginger wrote: I liked it...it was funny and not overly stupid (which, with the set up it could be). Saitaina **** I'm cute... and a psycho. Hm, it evens out! http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 12 18:30:40 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:30:40 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes In-Reply-To: <78por09dm26r0st8og42v3bgkhm44b7fpo@...> Message-ID: Pippin: > > >She also stresses that Lupin has flaws and is damaged. Monika: > I surely don't have a problem with loving a flawed, damaged character.Sirius certainly is, and that's what makes him so interesting in my eyes. But Lupin's flaws aren't the flaws you would give to a "villain", they are common human flaws that make a character more real. "Saints" or any people who always behave well are utterly boring to read about. Pippin: That's just it. Do the books really support the idea that there's a difference between "common human flaws" , the kind we can overlook or forgive, in our friends at least, and the flaws that make people choose to join Voldemort? Harry would like to think there is. He believes, like Malfoy, that there's a wrong sort, and you can tell who they are by how you feel about them. But, IMO, he's wrong. It's our choices,right? The question is not how much we love and sympathize with poor Lupin, but what kind of person he chooses to be. He doesn't have to make the right choices just because good people like him, even if JKR is one of them. I think Rowling is a sterner moralist than the anonymous quotester (*not* Burke) responsible for "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." The good man who does nothing, in OOP, has ceased (or not yet learned) to be good. Is there really a moral difference between dangling Snape upside down because he's a weird little oddball, and dangling the Robertses upside down because they're Muggles? Lupin knew it was wrong, but he didn't want to go against the boys who were his friends and the height of cool. Couldn't there have been some DE's in the crowd at the World Cup who felt the same way? We can't blame a fifteen year old for doing what's instinctive, following the crowd, instead of what's right. But JKR makes the point that even for a grown man, listening to your conscience instead of the voice of the crowd takes courage that is not normal, that is rare and heroic. JKR: > >> Professor Lupin, who appears in the third book, is one of my favourite characters. He's a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and disability<<< Monika: > Yes, of course he has a disability, but I still don't get why this makes him a candidate for being ESE. < Pippin: I'm just pointing out that JKR's descriptions of him as her favorite are usually accompanied by the caveat that he's not okay. I think it's telling that she says the metaphor is with people's reactions, not disability itself. Lots of people inthe books face disabilities and have to live with them--even Harry has his myopia. But people seem to react to Lupin in one of two ways: they shun him, or they cover up for him. In such an environment, it's got to be difficult for him to learn to make good choices, because the consequences are never appropriate. Pippin From rynnewrites at rynne_lupin.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 12 19:51:22 2004 From: rynnewrites at rynne_lupin.yahoo.invalid (Rynne) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:51:22 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Lupin quotes In-Reply-To: References: <78por09dm26r0st8og42v3bgkhm44b7fpo@...> Message-ID: Getting into the debate because Lupin's my favorite character and if JKR makes him ESE I'll be heartily depressed... Pippin: > Is there really a moral difference between dangling Snape > upside down because he's a weird little oddball, and dangling > the Robertses upside down because they're Muggles? Lupin > knew it was wrong, but he didn't want to go against the boys who > were his friends and the height of cool. Couldn't there have been > some DE's in the crowd at the World Cup who felt the same > way? There *is* a difference--Snape could fight back. And he did, remember? That spell that cut James's cheek? James actually didn't dangle Snape upside down *until* Snape had cut his cheek (though he did nearly choke him with the Scourgify first). The difference is that the Robertses couldn't fight back, and Snape could--and did. Never mind that Lupin himself is fifteen/sixteen here. When you were that age, did you know many people who had the moral conviction to defy their friends when they think their friends are wrong, *publicly*, especially when their biggest flaw is that they want their friends to like them? I don't. I'm seventeen, and I go to school with people that age, and I could name you maybe one or two who I know would stand up to their friends like that--but they don't have that big flaw that Lupin does; they're rather...aggressive anyway. The DEs at the World Cup are adults, and they made their choices long ago. At the time of Snape's Worst Memory, Lupin is still a teenager, and still figuring things out. I don't blame him (much) for having made the wrong choice at that point, but I can't see how standing by when his friends hung Snape upside down equates to being a DE. A question, Pippin. What do you think Lupin's motives would be, for turning ESE? I can see some reasons, but I can't see them as being strong enough for Lupin to turn his back against his friends and mentors. --Rynne From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 12 23:11:38 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:11:38 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rynne : > Getting into the debate because Lupin's my favorite character and if JKR makes him ESE I'll be heartily depressed... > > Pippin: > > Is there really a moral difference between dangling Snape upside down because he's a weird little oddball, and dangling the Robertses upside down because they're Muggles? Lupin knew it was wrong, but he didn't want to go against the boys who were his friends and the height of cool. Couldn't there have been some DE's in the crowd at the World Cup who felt the same way?<< Rynne: > > There *is* a difference--Snape could fight back. And he did, > remember? That spell that cut James's cheek? James actually didn't dangle Snape upside down *until* Snape had cut his cheek (though he did nearly choke him with the Scourgify first). The difference is that the Robertses couldn't fight back, and Snape could--and did.< Pippin: Snape couldn't fight back effectively, because the odds were uneven: two against one. I'm not sure I see the difference. It wasn't a fair fight. The odds were more glaringly lopsided in the Robertses case, but the principle is the same. Rynne: > Never mind that Lupin himself is fifteen/sixteen here. When you were that age, did you know many people who had the moral conviction to defy their friends when they think their friends are wrong, *publicly*, especially when their biggest flaw is that they want their friends to like them? < Pippin: That is what I am saying. The courage to do the right thing under such circumstances is rarer than we would like to think. Neville had it in PS/SS, Lily had it in the Pensieve. Two out of hundreds of named characters. Rynee >I don't blame him (much) for having made the wrong choice at that point, but I can't see how standing by when his friends hung Snape upside down equates to being a DE.< Pippin: He says he never told them they were out of line. Think about that and remember that Sirius eventually tried to kill Snape. Rynne: > A question, Pippin. What do you think Lupin's motives would be, for turning ESE? I can see some reasons, but I can't see them as being strong enough for Lupin to turn his back against his friends and mentors.< > Pippin: Well, that's the _who wants to be a galleonaire_ question. But I think JKR wrote an 869 page answer to that in OOP. She says the book is that long so we'll understand what's coming, and most of it is taken up with the endless, grinding struggle against Umbridge's reign of bureaucratic terror. At the end of it, Hermione was quite ready to think siccing the centaurs on Umbridge was a clever plan. And that was against Umbridge who was blessedly inept. Crouch Sr was similarly ruthless, and not inept at all. Post-Hogwarts, Lupin probably had more experience with the Umbridge/Crouch Sr. face of the wizarding government than with the Arthur Weasley/Amelia Bones side. Outside of Hogwarts, Voldemort seems to be the only adult wizard we've met so far who even pretends to take the battle for non-human rights seriously. It's not much of a choice, is it? Pippin From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 13 00:58:44 2004 From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:58:44 -0000 Subject: Newsweek 10 Best List Message-ID: Lookit who's number 9. Eat slugs, Spiderman! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6699971/site/newsweek/ -Jim Flanagan From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 13 14:03:41 2004 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:03:41 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter joke In-Reply-To: <00db01c4e06d$5db1b180$01fea8c0@...> Message-ID: > I liked it...it was funny and not > overly stupid (which, with the set up > it could be). > > Saitaina Thanks! Now for round 2: A troll, a hag and a leprechaun go into a bar. The bartender askes them how old they are. The leprechaun brightly responds "283". The hag says "92". The troll, with much concentration, grunts 27 times. Noting their quizzical expressions, the bartender explains, "We're not allowed to serve minors here." The hag sighs and says, "In that case, I'll just have a plate of raw liver." Better? Ginger, who needs a hobby From rynnewrites at rynne_lupin.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 14 05:22:06 2004 From: rynnewrites at rynne_lupin.yahoo.invalid (Rynne) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:22:06 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Lupin quotes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pippin: > Snape couldn't fight back effectively, because the odds were > uneven: two against one. I'm not sure I see the difference. It > wasn't a fair fight. The odds were more glaringly lopsided in the > Robertses case, but the principle is the same. I don't think the principal is the same at all. The Robertses were utterly helpless, and despite being outnumbered, Snape was *not*. If Snape had been so helpless, I don't think he would have come in for as much flak as he had from Sirius and James--they would have found it too boring. They weren't sadists, after all, like what I consider the DEs to be. Or if they were, they grew up into better people. And they were the *active* participants in Snape's humiliation--Lupin was just passive. James certainly grew up to be a better man (I'm exempting Sirius for now, as Sirius's development into an adult seemed to be effectively halted/delayed by Azkaban), and Remus has, after all, had more time than James do to some growing up. But anyway, the point is, I don't find Snape's Worst Memory to be a scaled-down version of the Quidditch World Cup, because Snape wasn't half as helpless as the Robertses. And I can't stand the idea that MWPP were just bullies picking on poor widdle Snape; aside from painting MWPP completely as bad guys (they were human and flawed, but not evil), it gives no credit to Snape, who I can't imagine would just sit there and take it. He didn't in the pensieve scene, after all! He hasn't for all the time that we've known him! Snape is the sort to have the philosophy of "If the odds aren't in your favor, bring down the odds". I'm sure he's done it plenty of times--he is Slytherin, after all--and that he gave as good as he got. Snape was no Mr Roberts! Pippin: > That is what I am saying. The courage to do the right thing under > such circumstances is rarer than we would like to think. Neville > had it in PS/SS, Lily had it in the Pensieve. Two out of hundreds > of named characters. So...everyone who doesn't have that courage, which you admit to as being rarer that we would like to think, is perforce ESE? Just because Lupin doesn't have that quality doesn't make him a bad person, *especially* at his age and in his situation. I doubt WPP would ever seriously think about this, but they *could* concievably have blackmailed Lupin, you know. I reread the pensieve scene, and that part where James talks about running with a werewolf every month and Lupin telling him to keep his voice down, and there's the thing--what if James doesn't keep his voice down? *Look* at the secret they hold over him, especially when they're so careless! I'd want to keep them placated, if I was Remus, and it's a perfectly normal reaction. I don't think WPP would really hold that secret over him, or seriously suggest that they would, but as long as Lupin thought it a possibility...*shrugs* There's also the degree of closeness between Remus and the other three that was *not* present between Neville and the Trio, or Lily and James&Sirius. Lily hates them, so I can't see *her* having a problem in standing up against them. Neville had the true courage, especially considering his personality, but he didn't know the Trio as well as Remus knew WPP. The Trio hadn't done anything for Neville the way that WPP became Animagi for Remus. Neville and Lily and Remus are all entirely different people in entirely different situations, and I don't see how Remus's failure to act like Lily and Neville puts him on the path to evil. Pippin: > He says he never told them they were out of line. Think about > that and remember that Sirius eventually tried to kill Snape. *sigh* Until we know more about the Whomping Willow incident, I'm withholding judgment on everything connected to it. There's so many different scenarios that could be imagined; I personally think that Sirius was just impulsive and thoughtless and thought he would just scare Snape. Real murder never crossed his mind. I think he thought that Snape dead in the abstract was all right, but not in reality, especially not if he and a friend of his were responsible and could be punished for it. I can't imagine that this seriously was premeditated. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure what your argument is here. Are you suggesting that it was *Remus* who suggested that Sirius send Snape to the Shack? Or that because Remus didn't check Sirius, Sirius thought it was all right to send Snape to the Shack? Clarify, please. :) Pippin: > Post-Hogwarts, Lupin probably had more experience with the > Umbridge/Crouch Sr. face of the wizarding government than with > the Arthur Weasley/Amelia Bones side. Outside of Hogwarts, > Voldemort seems to be the only adult wizard we've met so far > who even pretends to take the battle for non-human rights > seriously. It's not much of a choice, is it? > > > Pippin You're right, it's not much of a choice--but I don't think Lupin would choose the way you think he would. Remus isn't stupid. He knows that Voldemort is against Muggles and Muggleborn, and that he tortures and kills them and enjoys it, and Muggles and Muggleborn are all at least fully human! It doesn't seem a gigantic leap in logic that Voldemort doesn't really care for nonhuman rights either, and in the typical wizarding world way thinks them beneath him, and I'm sure Remus would consider that. Cost/benefit analysis of going over to Voldemort, since that's what his choice seems to be: Benefit: (perceived) safety from Voldemort's purges, and that's assuming Lupin thinks Voldemort treats his followers well and wouldn't kill them--which, by the way, he'll definitely know isn't true thanks to Regulus Black (who, I imagine, is definitely not the first Death Eater to be killed by his own fellows). The (possible) promise that Voldemort will make things better for nonhumans. Cost: the respect, friendship, love, and good will of his family (assuming they are living), his friends, and his mentors at Hogwarts, including Dumbledore, who we know Remus really admires. Then there are his friends, who he was afraid enough of losing to not stop them during such scenes as what happened in the pensieve, and who we know are against Dark wizards (James and Sirius at least), and who became Animagi for him and clearly love him? Completely aside from that, I don't think Remus is so selfish that he would make a decision that big based entirely on his own welfare, especially when he welfare cannot be assured should he turn to Voldemort. However badly some members of the wizarding government treat him, I think he'd prefer to stay with the Light. --Rynne From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 14 16:47:43 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:47:43 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rynne: And I can't stand the idea that MWPP were just bullies picking on poor widdle Snape; aside from painting MWPP completely as bad guys (they were human and flawed, but not evil Pippin: Do you think the centaurs suddenly became bad guys when they decided to carry off Harry and Hermione? Or is it the sense of the canon that normal people with high ideals are capable of committing atrocities if someone doesn't stop them? Pippin: That is what I am saying. The courage to do the right thing under such circumstances is rarer than we would like to think. Neville had it in PS/SS, Lily had it in the Pensieve. Two out of hundreds of named characters. Rynne: So...everyone who doesn't have that courage, which you admit to as being rarer that we would like to think, is perforce ESE? Pippin: Everyone who doesn't have that courage is vulnerable to Voldemort, yes. Or, in real world terms, to condoning atrocities and violence against the innocent and helpless. Rynne: Just because Lupin doesn't have that quality doesn't make him a bad person, *especially* at his age and in his situation. I doubt WPP would ever seriously think about this, but they *could* concievably haveblackmailed Lupin, you know. Pippin: ::sigh:: As could Voldemort. That's what I'm afraid of. Pippin: He says he never told them they were out of line. Think about that and remember that Sirius eventually tried to kill Snape. Rynne: *sigh* Until we know more about the Whomping Willow incident, I'm withholding judgment on everything connected to it. There's so manydifferent scenarios that could be imagined; I personally think thatSirius was just impulsive and thoughtless and thought he would justscare Snape. Real murder never crossed his mind. I think he thoughtthat Snape dead in the abstract was all right, but not in reality,especially not if he and a friend of his were responsible and could be punished for it. I can't imagine that this seriously was premeditated. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure what your argument is here. Are yousuggesting that it was *Remus* who suggested that Sirius send Snape tothe Shack? Or that because Remus didn't check Sirius, Sirius thought it was all right to send Snape to the Shack? Clarify, please. :) Pippin: I agree that the willow incident wasn't Siriusly premeditated. But that leaves us with the question of how Snape, whom we agree can take care of himself, just happened to enter the willow when Lupin was there. ( Unlike Sirius, Lupin actually had a compelling motive for killing Snape, provided he could get away with it. Canon says Snape thinks he was in on it. It would be rather insipid for Snape to realize that he's been wrong about that, so I think we'll find out that he was right. But time will tell.) Regardless, it seems that even after this incident which could have ruined Lupin's own life if he'd been blamed for biting Snape or killing him, Lupin says he never told them to lay off Snape or that they were going too far. My point is that Lupin is being portrayed as someone who would do anything to keep his friends, even condone an action that resulted in him being blamed for murder. Of course in those days none of his friends were DE's. But that changed. Pippin: Post-Hogwarts, Lupin probably had more experience with the Umbridge/Crouch Sr. face of the wizarding government than with the Arthur Weasley/Amelia Bones side. Outside of Hogwarts, Voldemort seems to be the only adult wizard we've met so far who even pretends to take the battle for non-human rights seriously. It's not much of a choice, is it? Rynne: You're right, it's not much of a choice--but I don't think Lupin would choose the way you think he would. Remus isn't stupid. He knows thatVoldemort is against Muggles and Muggleborn, and that he tortures andkills them and enjoys it, and Muggles and Muggleborn are all at least fully human! It doesn't seem a gigantic leap in logic that Voldemort doesn't really care for nonhuman rights either, and in the typicalwizarding world way thinks them beneath him, and I'm sure Remus would consider that. Pippin: I don't think it's that simple. In the first place, it wasn't clear at the time that Voldemort was responsible for torturing Muggles and Muggleborns. Sirius says many people didn't realize what Voldemort was capable of at first, including his parents and his brother. Regulus was younger than Lupin, so Voldemort had even less of an evil reputation when Lupin left school. Even at the present time in the story, the goblins are considering joining Voldie, although they know that Voldemort has killed goblin families. Maybe it's a calculated risk: the Ministry might make concessions to keep the goblins on their side. Maybe they don't believe the stories; they're constantly being maligned by wizards themselves, so they'd have to wonder if Voldemort isn't the victim of a bad press, too.Lupin wouldn't want to make up his mind by what he'd heard. He'd want to see for himself. And Voldemort can be so charming. Of course he *looks* like a monster, but then that wouldn't bother Lupin, would it? Another wild card in all this is the other werewolves. Did Lupin make friends among them after Hogwarts? Could he have felt more at home with them than with his old friends, who probably couldn't sneak out with him at full moons any more? Could they have convinced him to turn against the tyrannical ministry, or even just to pass along any information that might help his friends resist? And could Voldemort have used that to blackmail Lupin into spying on the Order? There are so many ways Lupin could have fallen: trickery, jinxes, blackmail, misplaced idealism, that I don't think that's the main question. The question is, having foolishly or inadvertently put himself in Voldemort's power, would he have the courage to admit to Dumbledore that's what he'd done? Or would he try to cover up his mistake and flounder deeper in? Canon is not encouraging. Pippin From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 14 17:36:59 2004 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:36:59 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin: > Rowling has described Nabakov's Lolita as one of her favorite > books and "a great and tragic love story", so she has no > problems with making an unsavory character sympathetic. Aren't you jumping here from favorite book to favorite character? Lolita is a great book in my opinion too, but Hombart Hombart is certainly not a favorite character of mine - interesting, human, tragic, pathetic, touching, yes - but not somebody I'd like to meet. JKR lists Lupin as a favorite character with Harry, DD and Hagrid - in contexts that make it clear that she *likes* them *as people* (she speaks differently of her enjoyment in writing Snape). Quoted from http://www.jkrowling.com, "About Me" section of FAQ (answering "who is your favorite character?"): "I love: Harry, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Ginny, Fred, George and Lupin. I love writing (though would not necessarily want to meet) Snape." Therefore, Lupin is as much likely to be revealed as evil as Harry, Hagrid, Ron etc. Naama From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 14 17:51:44 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:51:44 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Lupin quotes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since Rynne has explained how I feel about Lupin much better than I could have done myself, I'm afraid I don't have much more to add to this discussion. Just a few thoughts. Rynne wrote: > >Pippin: >> Snape couldn't fight back effectively, because the odds were >> uneven: two against one. I'm not sure I see the difference. It >> wasn't a fair fight. The odds were more glaringly lopsided in the >> Robertses case, but the principle is the same. > >I don't think the principal is the same at all. The Robertses were >utterly helpless, and despite being outnumbered, Snape was *not*. If >Snape had been so helpless, I don't think he would have come in for as >much flak as he had from Sirius and James--they would have found it >too boring. They weren't sadists, after all, like what I consider the >DEs to be. I agree here. And while one can argue about the question if it is worse to be humiliated than to be hurt physically, Snape's "revenge" on James (cutting his face so he was bleeding) didn't make me sympathize with Snape. But then, I still consider Snape to be a sadist, the way he treats his students (maybe with the exception of Malfoy) is just despicable. And *they* are surely "helpless" face to a teacher. A teacher who is an adult and should know better. > Or if they were, they grew up into better people. And we have seen on numerous occasions that Snape didn't really grow up or he wouldn't take out his anger and frustration on his students. >But anyway, the point is, I don't find Snape's Worst Memory to be a >scaled-down version of the Quidditch World Cup, because Snape wasn't >half as helpless as the Robertses. And I can't stand the idea that >MWPP were just bullies picking on poor widdle Snape; aside from >painting MWPP completely as bad guys (they were human and flawed, but >not evil), it gives no credit to Snape, who I can't imagine would just >sit there and take it. I am pretty sure he did a lot to "earn" this treatment, and he certainly didn't sit there without defending himself, something the Robertses couldn't do. >Snape was no Mr Roberts! Exactly. Thanks, Rynne. >Pippin: >> He says he never told them they were out of line. Think about >> that and remember that Sirius eventually tried to kill Snape. > >*sigh* Until we know more about the Whomping Willow incident, I'm >withholding judgment on everything connected to it. There's so many >different scenarios that could be imagined; I personally think that >Sirius was just impulsive and thoughtless and thought he would just >scare Snape. Yes. I think the last word about this incident hasn't been said, and as long as JKR doesn't tell us it was a premeditated, planned, cold-blooded attempted murder, no one will persuade me it was. Snape might have provoked it, and Dumbledore's reaction (my memory is as good as it ever was, Severus) makes me believe *he* doesn't think Sirius really tried to kill him, either. Sirius was under a lot of stress at the time, he might have overreacted without really thinking about the consequences. Innocent until proven guilty. ;-) Monika From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 14 17:52:32 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:52:32 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Lupin quotes was Re: Never again References: Message-ID: <011a01c4e205$b4325d90$220110ac@MainComputer> Hi -- I agree with Naama that it may be a leap to say that Rowling's love of the *book* Lolita leads to an inference that she can make an unsavory character appear sympathetic, as Pippin argued. You know what I'm finding most interesting about this discussion? How people can pick and choose where they want to delve into subtext and develop theories that go against the main grain of the fans and where they want to just go with a fairly straight-forward explanation or hypothesis that comports more with the majority viewpoint. I'm reminded of a project that one of my constitutional law professors was writing back many years ago while I was in law school which posited that Supreme Court Justices are not "conservative" and "activist" in consistent ways: conservative jurists can be just as "activist" as the so-called liberal activist judges when it suits their purposes. So, in my case ---- I'm perfectly content to see Lupin as a very straight-forward "good guy" who seems highly unlikely to be anything more than what Rowling has written (in my perception). And while I can see the plausibility of the Draco redemption theories, I don't necessarily expect to see them come to pass in canon ---- I take a more surface-text read of that character as well. OTOH, I'm perfectly willing to delve into subtext and argue about interview statements that she's made with respect to my shipping positions. It would seem lots of us fall into this, don't we? I could even point out where Lexicon Steve is being "conservative" versus "activist" with respect to fan theories and canon. Interesting. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 14 18:01:40 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:01:40 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > Pippin: > > Rowling has described Nabakov's Lolita as one of her favorite books and "a great and tragic love story", so she has no problems with making an unsavory character sympathetic.<< > Naama: > Aren't you jumping here from favorite book to favorite character? Lolita is a great book in my opinion too, but Hombart Hombart is certainly not a favorite character of mine - interesting, human, tragic, pathetic, touching, yes - but not somebody I'd like to meet. < Pippin: But I wonder if Nabakov felt that way? He had to spend an awful lot of time in Humbert's head. Naama: > JKR lists Lupin as a favorite character with Harry, DD and Hagrid - in contexts that make it clear that she *likes* them *as people* (she speaks differently of her enjoyment in writing Snape). > > Quoted from http://www.jkrowling.com, "About Me" section of FAQ (answering "who is your favorite character?"): > > "I love: Harry, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Ginny, Fred, George and Lupin. I love writing (though would not necessarily want to meet) Snape." > > Therefore, Lupin is as much likely to be revealed as evil as Harry, Hagrid, Ron etc. > Pippin: I know she's said she'd like to meet Lupin, and I think you're right, he's a normal person in the sense that Harry etc are and Snape isn't. But under some circumstances, normal people can do terrible things, and Voldemort is expert at manipulating people to do them -- *and* at keeping them from backing out once they realize what they've done. Sirius says that Voldemort tricks, jinxes and blackmails people into joining him...if only cruel, sadistic amoral people were joining, he wouldn't need to do that. Does anyone think that Lucius Malfoy or Bellatrix had to be blackmailed into being DE's? Lupin may not be a fairy tale villain, but that doesn't make him incapable of evil, IMO. Pippin From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Wed Dec 15 10:28:44 2004 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:28:44 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pippin (previously): Rowling has described Nabakov's Lolita as one of her favorite books and "a great and tragic love story", so she has no problems with making an unsavory character sympathetic. Naama (previosly): Aren't you jumping here from favorite book to favorite character? Pippin: But I wonder if Nabakov felt that way? He had to spend an awful lot of time in Humbert's head. Naama: Wait. You used Lolita to demonstrate something about JKR. How did we end up talking about Nabokov? As for JKR, we do know that she distinguishes between characters she likes *as people* and characters she enjoys writing. Being as thorough as she is, I assume she spent quite some time in Snape's head. However, it did not make her any more inclined to like him than many of her readers do (it's funny how she is always surprised that people like him as much as they do). Naama (previously): JKR lists Lupin as a favorite character with Harry, DD and Hagrid - in contexts that make it clear that she *likes* them *as people* (she speaks differently of her enjoyment in writing Snape). Quoted from http://www.jkrowling.com, "About Me" section of FAQ (answering "who is your favorite character?"): "I love: Harry, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Ginny, Fred, George and Lupin. I love writing (though would not necessarily want to meet) Snape." Therefore, Lupin is as much likely to be revealed as evil as Harry, Hagrid, Ron etc. Pippin: I know she's said she'd like to meet Lupin, and I think you're right, he's a normal person in the sense that Harry etc are and Snape isn't. But under some circumstances, normal people can do terrible things, and Voldemort is expert at manipulating people to do them -- *and* at keeping them from backing out once they realize what they've done. Lupin may not be a fairy tale villain, but that doesn't make him incapable of evil, IMO. Naama: I'm not arguing at all against normal people being capable of evil - in the real world or in the Potterverse. Nor am I arguing against a Lupin-like person in the real world succumbing to evil. There are plenty of examples. What I am saying is that JKR couldn't love (a word she uses) Lupin, if, in her head, she knew he had betrayed his best friends and their baby son. She wouldn't include him in a list of favorite characters, or describe him as a wonderful teacher etc. Naama From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Wed Dec 15 18:27:48 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:27:48 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > > Pippin (previously): > Rowling has described Nabakov's Lolita as one of her favorite > books and "a great and tragic love story", so she has no > problems with making an unsavory character sympathetic. > > Naama (previosly): > Aren't you jumping here from favorite book to favorite character? > > > Pippin: > But I wonder if Nabakov felt that way? He had to spend an awful > lot of time in Humbert's head. > > Naama: > Wait. You used Lolita to demonstrate something about JKR. How did we end up talking about Nabokov? Pippin: Sorry. I was thinking about the full quote. Here it is. Speaking in a rare interview for a new Radio 4 series about famous people's favourite books, she confides: "There are two books whose final lines make me cry without fail, irrespective of how many times I read them, and one is Lolita. There is so much I could say about this book. "There just isn't enough time to discuss how a plot that could have been the most worthless pornography becomes, in Nabakov's hands, a great and tragic love story, and I could exhaust my reservoir of superlatives trying to describe the quality of the writing." If JKR doesn't care about the characters, why would she consider their story a tragedy that moves her to tears? It seems to me one of the things she is admiring is the authorial tour-de-force of getting the reader to feel pity and sympathy for a person who has done repulsive things. > Naama: > > I'm not arguing at all against normal people being capable of evil - in the real world or in the Potterverse. Nor am I arguing against a Lupin-like person in the real world succumbing to evil. There are plenty of examples. > > What I am saying is that JKR couldn't love (a word she uses) Lupin, if, in her head, she knew he had betrayed his best friends and their baby son. She wouldn't include him in a list of favorite characters, or describe him as a wonderful teacher etc. < Pippin: I'm not comfortable assuming that. Dumbledore says that James would have saved Pettigrew. ESE!Lupin has many more redeeming qualities than Peter. Whether JKR believes, as a Christian, that even a soul stained by murder and treachery is beloved by God and could be redeemed if only its owner would seek salvation, I don't know, but it isn't out of the question, is it? Pippin From jkusalavagemd at jkusalavagemd.yahoo.invalid Wed Dec 15 23:14:23 2004 From: jkusalavagemd at jkusalavagemd.yahoo.invalid (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:14:23 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Story of Harry and Voldie Message-ID: Steve Sondheim's "Follies" (1971) has been described as a "success d'estime", which means those persons with so-called "taste" liked it, but it flopped at the box office. I think the show is a success in every way. The songs are rich and wonderful. This song, "The Story of Lucy and Jessie" has a great melody as well as an incredibly complex interwoven rhyme scheme. I dedicate this filk to a wizard of impeccable taste and extensive knowledge of the works of Stephen Sondheim, Caius Marcius. In respect, I will comply with his "don't pronounce the `T' in `Voldemort'" rule, even though I believe the correct non-filking pronunciation does voice the `T'. -Haggridd SCENE: Albus Dumbledore recounts the climactic battle between Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort in OOP as they struggle within the same being, making it hard to kill the one without harming the other. The Order of the Phoenix members are helpless to intervene, except in song. THE STORY OF HARRY AND VOLDIE ALBUS: Here's a little story 'bout the Wizards' War About two names of note. Let us call them Harry "P" and Voldie "Mort". About whom Jo Rowling wrote. Now Harry's immaturity Along with insecurity Has come from being only six and ten. Voldie Mort's impurity's Not buried in obscurity. The Dark Mark flies much higher than Big Ben. Given their antipathy, You may ask why Their two destinies are tied. Blood from both reside, Inside. Harry's not scary, He's very sincere. Voldie's an oldie, He radiates fear. Harry's young, he's no oldie. Voldie knows he is scary. Harry's mingled with Voldie, And Voldie, Harry. You see, Voldie's voracious He feeds from a snake. Harry is gracious; Eats Hagrid's rock cake. Voldie cannot be gracious, Harry's mingled with Voldie. I find it most vexatious But it's foretold, eh? Takes it's tolls, Bewitching spells and switching roles. Harry wants to vanquish Voldie's lies, Voldie wants to see that Harry dies. CHORUS, ORDER OF THE PHOENIX: Now when you see Harry "P," Callow, fallow Harry "P," Let him know he's stronger than he can see. Now if you see Voldie "Mort," Rotting, plotting Voldie "Mort," Tell him that he's more disgusting than a wart. (Sorry, Caius Marcius, the "T" is pronounced this time, I couldn't resist.) Wary Harry, Moldy Voldie, Wary Harry Moldy Voldie ALBUS: Harry keeps hurtin' >From scar on his head. Voldie is certain. He wants Harry dead. Harry really is certain. Voldie's causing his hurtin'. If Harry and Voldie could just disentwine, I could tell you someone Who would finally feel just fine! ORDER OF THE PHOENIX: Wary Harry ALBUS: Just fine! ORDER OF THE PHOENIX: Dressy Jessie... Moldy Voldie ALBUS: Just fine! ORDER OF THE PHOENIX: Wary Harry ALBUS: Just fine! ORDER OF THE PHOENIX: Moldy Voldie ALL: Tell 'em that they ought to part by hook or crook, Legilimancy opens Harry like a book! ALBUS: Yeah! Haggridd 12/16/04 From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 16 15:53:43 2004 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:53:43 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > Naama: > > Wait. You used Lolita to demonstrate something about JKR. > How did we end up talking about Nabokov? > > Pippin: > Sorry. I was thinking about the full quote. Here it is. > > Speaking in a rare interview for a new Radio 4 series about > famous people's favourite books, she confides: "There are two > books whose final lines make me cry without fail, irrespective of > how many times I read them, and one is Lolita. There is so > much I could say about this book. > > "There just isn't enough time to discuss how a plot that could > have been the most worthless pornography becomes, in > Nabakov's hands, a great and tragic love story, and I could > exhaust my reservoir of superlatives trying to describe the quality > of the writing." > > If JKR doesn't care about the characters, why would she > consider their story a tragedy that moves her to tears? It seems > to me one of the things she is admiring is the authorial > tour-de-force of getting the reader to feel pity and sympathy for a > person who has done repulsive things. > I think that, again, you're jumping from one thing to another. 'To care' for a character isn't the same as 'loving' a character. Of course great literature makes you care about the characters. But that sense of empathy and shared humanity is very different from the simple liking/loving of a certain character. In fact, they're almost diametrically opposed: the first is about going beyond traits and personality to that vision of humanity as such, whereas the second is exactly about partiality - liking/admiring a character for their personality/traits (for the same reasons you like/admire a person in RL). > > Naama: > > > > I'm not arguing at all against normal people being capable of > evil - in the real world or in the Potterverse. Nor am I arguing > against a Lupin-like person in the real world succumbing to evil. > There are plenty of examples. > > > > What I am saying is that JKR couldn't love (a word she uses) > Lupin, if, in her head, she knew he had betrayed his best friends > and their baby son. She wouldn't include him in a list of favorite > characters, or describe him as a wonderful teacher etc. < > > Pippin: > I'm not comfortable assuming that. Dumbledore says that > James would have saved Pettigrew. ESE!Lupin has many more > redeeming qualities than Peter. Whether JKR believes, as a > Christian, that even a soul stained by murder and treachery is > beloved by God and could be redeemed if only its owner would > seek salvation, I don't know, but it isn't out of the question, is it? I would think that JKR certainly believed that. However, this goes back to what I said above - the difference between acknowledging humanity in a person as such, and simply liking/disliking them. When JKR replies to the "who is your favorite character" question, she is talking about personal preferences - in fact, she is talking, in that context, as any fan might. She is *not* talking from that very high moral ground you describe. She is not taking God's point of view at that point. She is simply listing the characters she is particularly fond of, admires, likes - those she is partial to. I return to my question: do you really think she could be particularly fond of, like, admire, a character who betrayed his best friends? After all, once you have managed to convince yourself of Lupin's guilt, didn't it make you not like him as a person? (I may be wrong, but that's the impression I get from your posts.) Naama From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 17 04:01:47 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:01:47 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Naama: > > I think that, again, you're jumping from one thing to another. 'To care' for a character isn't the same as 'loving' a character. Of course great literature makes you care about the characters. But that sense of empathy and shared humanity is very different from the simple liking/loving of a certain character. In fact, they're almost diametrically opposed: the first is about going beyond traits and personality to that vision of humanity as such, whereas the second is exactly about partiality - liking/admiring a character for their personality/traits (for the same reasons you like/admire a person in RL).< Pippin: Erm, but if JKR is writing as one who is commanded to love her enemies as her neighbors, and her neighbors as herself, then ideally that distinction, and the one you make below, don't obtain. I think it is relevant to the books, because that kind of love is almost certainly what's behind the door. Dumbledore berates himself, does he not, for caring more for Harry than for the nameless faceless strangers? He could almost be a CS Lewis character at that point, echoing Jesus's lesson that more is asked from a good person because even Roman tax-collectors are kind to their friends. Naama: > I would think that JKR certainly believed that. However, this goes back to what I said above - the difference between acknowledging humanity in a person as such, and simply liking/disliking them. When JKR replies to the "who is your favorite character" question, she is talking about personal preferences - in fact, she is talking, in that context, as any fan might. She is *not* talking from that very high moral ground you describe. She is not taking God's point of view at that point. < She is simply listing the characters she is particularly fond of, admires, likes - those she is partial to. I return to my question: do you really think she could be particularly fond of, like, admire, a character who betrayed his best friends? After all, once you have managed to convince yourself of Lupin's guilt, didn't it make you not like him as a person? (I may be wrong, but that's the impression I get from your posts.) > Pippin: Oh, no! I am *much* fonder of clever, crafty ESE!Lupin than I ever was of Ostensible!Lupin, that weak-willed, passive-aggressive hard-luck case.*I* don't want to meet him, but that's because I don't know what makes him tick. Jo does. In a sense we've never met the real Lupin -- the wonderful man Jo describes is fast becoming only the hollow shell of the person he could have been. When he hugs Molly I want to shout, "How dare you!" The worst of it is, I'm afraid he's sincere, and actually has convinced himself things are going to be different this time. But he is sowing the wind and will reap the whirlwind. Alas. Jo has idealized him as a teacher, I think, to make it clear that in a world in which he was allowed to fulfill the role he was born for, he would never have discovered his potential for evil, the same potential that rests in all of us. That's the kicker -- she can like him despite what he's done because at heart he's *not* different than the rest of us--he represents the normal, basically good person's potential to do wrong. As Ursula LeGuin once said (paraphrase) the great fantasies don't say tritely that there's a little bit of bad in the best of us and a little bit of good in the worst of us. They teach that in each of us rests the possibility to do tremendous good or the greatest evil. Pippin From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 19 10:14:15 2004 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:14:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Naama: > > > > I think that, again, you're jumping from one thing to another. 'To > care' for a character isn't the same as 'loving' a character. Of > course great literature makes you care about the characters. But > that sense of empathy and shared humanity is very different > from the simple liking/loving of a certain character. In fact, > they're almost diametrically opposed: the first is about going > beyond traits and personality to that vision of humanity as such, > whereas the second is exactly about partiality - liking/admiring a > character for their personality/traits (for the same reasons you > like/admire a person in RL).< > > Pippin: > Erm, but if JKR is writing as one who is commanded to love her > enemies as her neighbors, and her neighbors as herself, then > ideally that distinction, and the one you make below, don't > obtain. I think it is relevant to the books, because that kind of > love is almost certainly what's behind the door. > > Dumbledore berates himself, does he not, for caring more for > Harry than for the nameless faceless strangers? He could > almost be a CS Lewis character at that point, echoing Jesus's > lesson that more is asked from a good person because even > Roman tax-collectors are kind to their friends. We can start a deep philosophical argument here regarding the relationship between the Christian love you refer to and specific, "human" love. Without going too deep, I'd say that for JKR, you are supposed to love the people you love (we see how important Lily's love for her son is). However, it's not relevant to our specific debate, since JKR is *obviously* not showing an all-ecompassing, love-thy-enemy type of love when she is listing favorite characters: 1) the very act of picking and choosing indicates partiality, preferring this over that - which is (sorry to repeat myself) diametrically opposed to the notion of an all-encompassing, divine love 2. She marks Snape as a character she likes to write, but doesn't like as a person. In fact, in many interviews she makes clear that she doesn't like Snape, Draco, the Dursleys. Again, not all-encompassing at all. > > > > Pippin: > snip> > > Jo has idealized him as a teacher, I think, to make it clear that > in a world in which he was allowed to fulfill the role he was born > for, he would never have discovered his potential for evil, the > same potential that rests in all of us. That's the kicker -- she can > like him despite what he's done because at heart he's *not* > different than the rest of us--he represents the normal, basically > good person's potential to do wrong. And Draco, Snape, the Dursleys, Tom Riddle never had a potential for good? Why does JKR dislike them? If anything, your!Lupin is much more vile than the Dursleys, who have never (as far as we know) betrayed their best friends to their death, while making sure that their other best friend suffers a fate worse than death. > > As Ursula LeGuin once said (paraphrase) the great fantasies > don't say tritely that there's a little bit of bad in the best of us > and a little bit of good in the worst of us. They teach that in each > of us rests the possibility to do tremendous good or the greatest > evil. I agree. I just don't think that JKR is showing us this via Lupin. I think she is starting to demostrate that through *Harry* - he has cast, or tried to cast, an Unforgivable, and my feeling is that this is only an introduction of a theme that will be fully developed in the next book. Naama From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 20 05:15:32 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:15:32 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Pippin: > > snip> > > > > Jo has idealized him as a teacher, I think, to make it clear that in a world in which he was allowed to fulfill the role he was born for, he would never have discovered his potential for evil, the same potential that rests in all of us. That's the kicker -- she can like him despite what he's done because at heart he's *not* different than the rest of us--he represents the normal, basically good person's potential to do wrong. Naama: > And Draco, Snape, the Dursleys, Tom Riddle never had a potential for good? Why does JKR dislike them? < Pippin: She doesn't like them because they're sadistic bullies and they're not sorry about it. ESE!Lupin is something different -- he's not sadistic, he doesn't want to hurt people who haven't hurt him, but the only way for him to stop is to confess, and he's too cowardly to do it. You are saying, I think, that JKR couldn't have have made a character a murderer and decided to like him, but the way I imagine it, she said, what could make someone that I like, who's one of my favorite people, choose to become a killer? There's a very strong message, running all through the books, that we can't tell who's good and who's evil by who we like and who we dislike. Pippin previously: They teach that in each of us rests the possibility to do tremendous good or the greatest evil. Naama: > I agree. I just don't think that JKR is showing us this via Lupin. I think she is starting to demostrate that through *Harry* - he has cast, or tried to cast, an Unforgivable, and my feeling is that this is only an introduction of a theme that will be fully developed in the next book.< Pippin: But whatever Harry does, he will repent of and redeem himself, or so I hope. In order for us to understand the jeopardy he is in, there needs to be another character who wants to redeem himself but is too frightened to do it. Pippin From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Thu Dec 23 23:27:47 2004 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:27:47 -0000 Subject: HBP Release Date Message-ID: Holiday Greetings, All! I guess by now everyone's heard that the release date for Book 6 is 16 July. I've been giving the person of the title some thought & I think the Half-Blood Prince just might be Neville. Thoughts? Hope everyone's holiday is a happy one, especially you, Neil. Please let us know how things are going. Peace & Plenty, Parker From CoyotesChild at iggymcsnurd.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 24 12:32:36 2004 From: CoyotesChild at iggymcsnurd.yahoo.invalid (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:32:36 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Release Date References: Message-ID: <000301c4e9b4$a686e560$6501a8c0@Henson> Yeah, I'm speaking in for the first time. If the HBP is someone we've met already (and I don't think it's Neville, though I would love it to be, since he's one of my favorite characters in the book.), which is unlikely IMHO, I think it's one of two people. Hagrid, who's mother, IIRC, becomes the leader... or queen... of a tribe of giants, perhaps making him a prince, and he's a half blood giant/human. The other, and I don't know of it's been mentioned (sorry, life has been VERY busy for me and I haven't been able to keep up with as much as I'd like.), is possibly Snape. I never recall hearing word one about him being a pureblood, and it would be one HELL of a secret for him to be hiding. Not to mention that it may be one of the reasons Dumbledore believes he's turned from Voldemort. Bonds of blood can have strong magic, but so can the bonds of nobility and the oaths taken by them. It can also be part of his reason for how he views the world... He is a hidden prince, which would put him in status above others in most societies, but he's a half-blood, and in secret, so he has to put up with being placed in lower social status than even the "snot nosed little brats" he has to teach... and the fellow students of his of pureblood line who tormented when he went to school himself. BTW: I don't know if it's been mentioned on this list (the only one I'm subscribed to right now), but everyone does know that they announced on Nickelodeon Love that JKR stated that one of Harry's friends wouldn't make it out of the next book alive? (This implies Ron or Hermione, but he's got a lot of friends, including all of the Weasleys, Hagrid, Dumbledore, McGonagall, many of the people in the DADA, and a number of others...) ----- Original Message ----- From: "harpdreamer" To: Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:27 PM Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Release Date > > > Holiday Greetings, All! > > I guess by now everyone's heard that the release date for Book 6 is > 16 July. I've been giving the person of the title some thought & I > think the Half-Blood Prince just might be Neville. > > Thoughts? > > Hope everyone's holiday is a happy one, especially you, Neil. Please > let us know how things are going. > > Peace & Plenty, > > Parker > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 24 09:52:25 2004 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:52:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Release Date Message-ID: <20041224095226.2391.h007.c000.wm@...> << Holiday Greetings, All! I guess by now everyone's heard that the release date for Book 6 is 16 July. I've been giving the person of the title some thought & I think the Half-Blood Prince just might be Neville. Thoughts? >> Hope everyone's holiday is a happy one, especially you, Neil. Please let us know how things are going. >> I echo Parker's holiday wishes, although I'm not sure about the possibility of Neville being the HBP. My current thought is that it's a character connected to Hogwarts' Slytherin House, since the Slytherins are the most focused on purity of blood: assuming HPB is a nickname associated with a person, it seems to me the Slytherins would make a point of drawing attention to half-blood status in someone of high social standing. Aside from that, I can report that I am settled into my new (rented) place in Stamford Hill and looking forward to a quiet Christmas rootling through boxes of my junk. Tonight, one of my brothers and his wife are coming to dinner, so I'm cooking a seasonal meal and will probably eat regular food (and too much of it) over the weekend. I'm almost set to put my old place up for sale and I'm still waiting to give a formal statement to the police, but they can both wait until 2005. I hope everyone's plans are running smoothly - have a great time! Neil x ---------------------------------------- Scanned by Emailfiltering.co.uk From CoyotesChild at iggymcsnurd.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 24 15:58:02 2004 From: CoyotesChild at iggymcsnurd.yahoo.invalid (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:58:02 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Release Date References: <20041224095226.2391.h007.c000.wm@...> Message-ID: <000301c4e9d1$596c6850$6501a8c0@Henson> *grin* I just realized... We hever learned Harry's middle name. What if it's something like Bartholomew? H-alf B-lood P-rince H-arry B-artholemew P-otter It would fit with Rowling's style, wouldn't it? Iggy McSnurd From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 24 17:57:51 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:57:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Add your lines to this HP version of night before Christmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041224175751.58507.qmail@...> Twas the night before Hogsmeade And all through the school Not a wizard was studying And they were starting to drool. Their passes were signed by their parents with care. In hopes that their kids would have lots of fun there! (Ok somebody else write the next few lines!) --- harpdreamer wrote: > > Holiday Greetings, All! > > I guess by now everyone's heard that the release > date for Book 6 is > 16 July. I've been giving the person of the title > some thought & I > think the Half-Blood Prince just might be Neville. > > Thoughts? > > Hope everyone's holiday is a happy one, especially > you, Neil. Please > let us know how things are going. > > Peace & Plenty, > > Parker > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 24 18:19:22 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:19:22 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Release Date References: <20041224095226.2391.h007.c000.wm@...> <000301c4e9d1$596c6850$6501a8c0@Henson> Message-ID: <001301c4e9e5$1c05c7e0$220110ac@MainComputer> Hi Iggy -- Nice theory, but Harry's middle name is James. It was given in an interview several years back and confirmed in OoP (the chapter where Harry has his hearing ..... his full name is given there). Happy holidays everyone! Penny ----- Original Message ----- From: Iggy McSnurd To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [the_old_crowd] HBP Release Date *grin* I just realized... We hever learned Harry's middle name. What if it's something like Bartholomew? H-alf B-lood P-rince H-arry B-artholemew P-otter It would fit with Rowling's style, wouldn't it? Iggy McSnurd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Fri Dec 24 20:17:09 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (Jeralyn) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:17:09 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Release Date References: <000301c4e9d1$596c6850$6501a8c0@Henson> Message-ID: <003301c4e9f5$8d060da0$6ddeb3d1@Study> Actually we learned in Order of the Phoenix that Harry's middle name *is* James, as had so long been suspected. And I think we also learned that Hagrid's mother was dead, didn't we? (I just finished re-reading the book, and I'm farily certain I read that.) My thoughts on the Half Blood Prince is that it might be - if it *is* someone we already know - Seamus. He makes a point of saying in book one that he is a halfblood. Jeralyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy McSnurd" Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [the_old_crowd] HBP Release Date > > *grin* I just realized... > > We hever learned Harry's middle name. What if it's something like > Bartholomew? > > H-alf > B-lood > P-rince > > H-arry > B-artholemew > P-otter > > > It would fit with Rowling's style, wouldn't it? > > Iggy McSnurd > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 25 08:02:27 2004 From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat / Mike Gray) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:02:27 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Add your lines to this HP version of night before Christmas In-Reply-To: <20041224175751.58507.qmail@...> Message-ID: <001d01c4ea58$135648e0$0300a8c0@shasta> > Twas the night before Hogsmeade > And all through the school > Not a wizard was studying > And they were starting to drool. > Their passes were signed by their parents with care. > In hopes that their kids would have lots of fun there! Well, let's see ... The well-buttered posters were snuggled away Even garrulous goats didn't have much to say Or some such ... Hey - I just watched Az last night on the new home cinema I've almost finished building (even the new compi would just stop crashing on the hour ... ) - and I got to missing you guys so bad it hurt! I've been away from HP for so long I could hardly remeber what was going to happen next in Az - and that may just be a good sign. I think I'm going to be edging back into the fandom again this year. For now: love and kisses to all! Mike, the once and future Goat. From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Sat Dec 25 10:20:16 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 21:20:16 +1100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Add your lines to this HP version of night before Christmas In-Reply-To: <20041224175751.58507.qmail@...> References: <20041224175751.58507.qmail@...> Message-ID: <20041225102016.GO4183@...> On Fri, Dec 24, 2004 at 09:57:51AM -0800, Randy Estes wrote: > > Twas the night before Hogsmeade > And all through the school > Not a wizard was studying > And they were starting to drool. > Their passes were signed by their parents with care. > In hopes that their kids would have lots of fun there! > > (Ok somebody else write the next few lines!) I'd just settled down for a quick Christmas nap When a noise from outside like a branch going snap Made me spring to the window to see what moved there And I thought I saw shadows but I wasn't quite sure Sounds eerie and horrible were heard thorugh the fog: Profs. Snape and McGonagle out for a snog. Well, you asked for it :) -- Ancient C64 curses #201: A HEX on 53294! From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 26 01:09:23 2004 From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 01:09:23 -0000 Subject: Welcome ba-a-a-k! In-Reply-To: <001d01c4ea58$135648e0$0300a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: --- Aberforth's Goat wrote: I got to missing you guys so bad it hurt! I've been away from HP for so long I could hardly remember what was going to happen next in Az - and that may just be a good sign. I think I'm going to be edging back into the fandom again this year. --- We've missed you too, AG! In fact, we've been singing about you. Here's a link that shows you just how much we care: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/tincanalley.htm Constance Vigilance, looking forward to the sound of the Magic Dishwasher in the rinse cycle. From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 26 19:50:21 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:50:21 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/907 on 12/14/04: > > Naama: > > Aren't you jumping here from favorite book to favorite > > character? Lolita is a great book in my opinion too, but Hombart > > Hombart is certainly not a favorite character of mine - > > interesting, human, tragic, pathetic, touching, yes - but not > > somebody I'd like to meet. < > > Pippin: > But I wonder if Nabakov felt that way? He had to spend an awful > lot of time in Humbert's head. That would correlate with all the cliches about how artists must suffer to do great art. From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 28 10:31:33 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:31:33 -0000 Subject: Lupin quotes was Re: Never again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > > > Pippin: > > But I wonder if Nabakov felt that way? He had to spend an awful > > lot of time in Humbert's head. > > That would correlate with all the cliches about how artists must > suffer to do great art. How true. Unfortunately too many authors see no reason why their readers shouldn't suffer too. Ah! The agonies of a split infinitive! The gastric discomfort caused by a surfeit of litotes, brain death by cliche, plumbago from leaden plot progression - not forgetting lumber pain from wooden characterisation. There is a tale oft told that in a happy land far, far away there is an annual survey to choose the writer most wish to see suffer retribution for their heinous crimes against humanity. The poll winner is locked in a soundproof cell and recordings of the works of Lionel Fanshawe are piped in without surcease. For a nominal entrance fee members of the public can wile away a pleasant Sunday afternoon watching an author foam at the mouth. It's called aversion therapy. Kneasy