From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Sat Feb 14 23:31:24 2004
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:31:24 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
Message-ID: <c0mb4c+b7os@...>

Severus Snape is the worst good guy in the HP universe, an 
intimidating, angry, misanthropic man.  He appears to have been on 
the outside looking in since his own school days, an outcast and 
disliked figure who turned out to be on the right side when it came 
down to genuine evil.  All this makes him a fascinating character.

After OotP, I think I understand him at last.  Snape, I believe, is a 
classic social phobic.

How are social phobics made?  One way is tension at home, and we see 
in Snape's memories that he had that, unable to bear the scenes of 
his father verbally abusing his mother. Cold, rejecting parenting is 
a major precursor to severe shyness, and Snape's home life makes that 
likely (but not certain).

Another way to make a shy:  not fitting in. Snape's always been 
described as this greasy, unkempt kid who showed up at school knowing 
far too much about the Dark Arts. He probably wasn't Mr. Popularity, 
was he? (Any parent who sends their kid to school unkempt is hurting 
that kid.)

Brick on the load 3: bullying and humiliation. We don't know how much 
James and the others bullied him, but the Lawn Scene wasn't the first 
time, apparently, and they humiliated him pretty thoroughly. It's a 
scene to make you cringe, especially if you grew up shy like I did.

Seeing friends being friends is painful to a shy, having to watch 
people enjoying what you don't have right in front of your face.  
When the leader of that group and big man on campus is your principal 
oppressor hatred is bound to follow.  Now what happens? Your 
tormentor's son [Snape hasn't got a son, of course] shows up at 
school, already famous, with close friends from the first day!  

Puberty makes it much worse. Watching a couple hand-in-hand is a 
knife in the heart to the severely shy.  Every pretty girl is just 
taunting the shy male, who often turns a particular rage towards 
females. [If you browsed over to the newsgroup alt.support.shyness 
you'd see misogyny and rage that would take your breath away.] 

Snape's misanthropy seems more general that that, but if you look at 
his behavior through the lens of severe shyness it starts making 
sense. He's been denied the pursuit of happiness, and it colors 
everything.  Dumbledore was probably one of the few people ever to 
treat him with anything like real acceptance as opposed to the Death 
Eaters' phony acceptance.

Jim Ferer




From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Feb 15 21:02:29 2004
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:02:29 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c0mb4c+b7os@...>
Message-ID: <c0omp5+ongn@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> 
> After OotP, I think I understand him at last.  Snape, I believe, is 
> a classic social phobic.

Catlady digs up a brittle yellow newspaper clipping from her middle
desk drawer. It's an ad that says:

"NERVOUS AROUND PEOPLE?
---------------------------------------
1. Are you afraid of social situations?
2. Are you fearful of being looked at?
3. Are you afraid of making a mistake, looking foolish, or feeling
embarrassed in front of others?
4. Are you overly concerned about what other people think of you?
5. Do you feel shy or anxious around people?
---------------------------------------
You may have a treatable condition called Social Phobia. (snip)
Contact Dr. D-- P-- at (xxx) xxx-xxxx"

I didn't respond to the ad, thinking it a scam, but I'm five for five
on the questions.

The way encountering people feels to me, is it feels like I have an
unwanted psychic ability to read their thoughts about me, so I 'hear'
all their scorn of me. 'Hearing' their unspoken thoughts is much like
hearing if they spoke the same thoughts. One of my many defects and
bad behaviors is that I feel terrible pain from words. "Sticks and
stones" have yet to do more than bruise me (lucky me), but words often
enough leave me crying all night long, and plunged into rage and shame
all over again if I happen to recall them years later. I perceive the
pain of being insulted really as very very similar to the pain of
burning myself on hot stove ring or boiling water.

And I am a *terrible* coward about feeling pain.

So I am totally reluctant to go to any new place without a trusted
friend accompanying me for protection and comfort. Like I wouldn't go
to a locksmith shop to ask a locksmith what kind of lock to put on my
apartment, because I know from nothing about locks and he would scorn
my ignorance. And I hate to go to shopping malls because all the slim,
trendy, popular, young mall rats would scorn my fat ugly slobbiness on
sight...

That's me. That's NOT Snape. 

Even in the smallest way. He took a job teaching, and even tho' he
hates dealing with the dunderheads who don't appreciate 'the subtle
science and exact art of potion-making', he has no objection to
standing in front of the class, being looked at by so many eyes. He
has no problem making swooping entrances and dramatic statements. He
like being the center of attention.

He likes being the center of attention when he gives reports to the
Order. Yeah, he deliberately uses actor shtick to draw attention. I
feel sure that a truly shy person, despite reading how-to books about
it, would never actually try to use actor shtick to draw attention,
for fear of doing it wrong and being laughed at. Snape, on the
contrary, seems perfectly confident that he will be respected (or at
least feared) by anyone who attends to him.

Snape is full of curdled rage and shame, but it has some other source
than social phobia.   

> Snape's misanthropy seems more general that that, but if you look
> at his behavior through the lens of severe shyness it starts making 
> sense. He's been denied the pursuit of happiness, and it colors 
> everything.  Dumbledore was probably one of the few people ever to 
> treat him with anything like real acceptance as opposed to the
> Death Eaters' phony acceptance.

I've never doubted that Snape came from abusive parents, thus starting
junior school with a big hunger for approval and no understanding of
how to win approval from people who prefer small talk and smiles and
conformity to fashion and small kindnesses and athletic ability
instead of intellectual arrogance, sarcasm, curses, looking weird ...
Still, at least when he got to Hogwarts, he could find a few people
who liked enough of his tastes to overlook the rest. Specifially, I
believe that his little clique of Slythies (not yet Death Eaters)
mostly were really his friends. They would have admired the sarcasm
and curses; they would have hated the same people he did. (Digression:
because they were his friends, not just people he was using to fight
loneliness, it must have hurt him that much more to turn against them
and betray them to the Ministry, thus causing them to be killed or
sent to Azkaban.)

I suppose that one of the things he had in common with his Slythie
friends was a streak of enjoying cruelty. I like to think he would be
unlikely to find someone who shared that taste on the Light Side, but
Harry did feel 'satisfaction' when he saw the Hedwig-bite-marks on Ron
and Hermione. Despite not sharing that taste, McGonagall and the other
permanent teachers seem to accept him perfectly well; McGonagall's
remark on Gryffie team being badly beaten by the Slythie team: "I
couldn't look Severus Snape in the face for weeks" comes from someone
who ordinarily *can* look Severus Snape in the face.

I see no reason to change my old belief that what has denied Snape the
pursuit of happiness is self-directed homophobia.    




From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Mon Feb 16 02:38:26 2004
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:38:26 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c0omp5+ongn@...>
Message-ID: <c0paf2+vjg7@...>

Rita, after describing her experience with social phoba:"  That's me. 
That's NOT Snape. 

  Even in the smallest way. He took a job teaching, and even tho' he 
hates dealing with the dunderheads who don't appreciate 'the subtle 
science and exact art of potion-making', he has no objection to 
standing in front of the class, being looked at by so many eyes. He 
has no problem making swooping entrances and dramatic statements. He 
like being the center of attention."

There's many flavors of severe shyness/social phobia, Rita.  Yours is 
one.  Mine was another.  I had that desire for attention at the same 
time I had that extreme self-consciousness and feeling I was being 
watched.  But I wanted to perform, to break out. I did well at 
presentations and was in theatricals and loved doing it, but was 
quiet as the grave most of the time.  I didn't have the abuse at home 
Snape did, but I did have a critical home and isolation at school.  
So I know, firsthand, there is more than one path on that journey.

If you were to visit some of the so-called shyness newsgroups, you'd 
see a lot of Snapeish attitudes there; so much misanthropy and 
misogyny you'd be amazed.  Most of them had experiences like Snape's.

Rita:" I suppose that one of the things he had in common with his 
Slythie friends was a streak of enjoying cruelty. I like to think he 
would be unlikely to find someone who shared that taste on the Light 
Side, but Harry did feel 'satisfaction' when he saw the Hedwig-bite-
marks on Ron and Hermione."

Are you comparing frank sadism with Harry's pissy mood at being, in 
his eyes, jerked around by his friends?  I think there's a big 
difference there.

Rita:"  I see no reason to change my old belief that what has denied 
Snape the pursuit of happiness is self-directed homophobia. "

You wouldn't be making something sexual out of it, would you, Rita? 
<g>. But it's possible, no doubt about it.  Actually, sexuality is a 
traumatic part of life for shys, especially males.  Seeing others 
embark on their love lives while being denied one of your own is pure 
torment, and I'm sure it's equally true for straight and gay people.  
Seeing a couple walk down the street is a taunt thrown right in your 
face, and you can never feel like a real adult.

This isolation, misanthropy, pent-up-resentment, is so like Snape, 
combined with the roots of his early home life and school days, that 
I just had to believe social isolation/social phobia/serious shyness 
is a major element of Snape's character.

Jim





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Feb 16 15:44:26 2004
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:44:26 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c0paf2+vjg7@...>
Message-ID: <c0qogq+mshr@...>

Jim said:
>>This isolation, misanthropy, pent-up-resentment, is so like 
Snape, combined with the roots of his early home life and school 
days, that I just had to believe social isolation/social 
phobia/serious shyness is a major element of Snape's 
character.<<

Just as  more than one physical flaw contributes to Snape's 
ugliness, I think there is more than one reason for his feelings of  
inadequacy. Indeed, each book has revealed a new one : the 
said ugliness, failure to save James, career blockage, 
unpopularity at school, a criminal past, an unhappy family 
life...and I'm sure there's more to come. Listies have delighted to 
guess: socio-economic discrimination, romantic 
disappointment, sexual frustration, racial or religious prejudice, 
social phobia, yada yada. Maybe all of them.

 Why has JKR chosen to burden one character with so many 
frustrations? And to emphasize that  some of his wounds  may 
run too deep for healing? 

Much as I enjoy speculating about what's to come 
*cough*vampires*cough* , I think we should not expect a grand 
resolution where all Snape's difficulties are revealed to be 
caused by (fill in the blank).  Perfectionist that he is, he is
always going to feel inadequate about something, and always 
need to gain power over this feeling by pointing out the 
inadequacies of others. (I think this, not sadism, is the driver for 
his cruelties.) Potions, where perfectionism is a virtue,  is the 
perfect subject for him--possibly if he were less of a perfectionist 
he'd be a better person but a much worse potion maker--and 
who would make wolfsbane potion then?

 I think the  question JKR wants to deal with is not  what makes 
people act like Snape. There can be lots of different reasons. But 
she wants us to see that people can be so valuable despite their 
faults that we ourselves will be crippled if we can't learn to put up 
with them.  For Harry, it's a package deal. If he wants Hogwarts 
in his life, he's going to have to endure Snape.


The question is, given that there will always be reasons for us to 
feel bad about ourselves, how does one avoid becoming 
similarly afflicted?  It may be too late for Snape to develop better 
coping strategies.  But if Harry ceases to be so sensitive about 
his own failings, Snape's taunts will lose their sting.

 Pippin




From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Feb 17 02:42:04 2004
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:42:04 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c0qogq+mshr@...>
Message-ID: <c0rv1s+f5ij@...>

Pippin:" Just as more than one physical flaw contributes to Snape's 
ugliness, I think there is more than one reason for his feelings of 
inadequacy. Indeed, each book has revealed a new one : the said 
ugliness, failure to save James, career blockage, unpopularity at 
school, a criminal past, an unhappy family life...and I'm sure 
there's more to come. Listies have delighted to guess: socio-economic 
discrimination, romantic disappointment, sexual frustration, racial 
or religious prejudice, social phobia, yada yada. Maybe all of them.

Yes, indeed.  Calling where Snape's head is "social phobia" isn't 
much more than an umbrella to describe the effects we're seeing.  
Many of the factors you cite are common precursors to an isolated 
life; romantic disappointment and/or sexual frustration being big 
magnifiers of the problem.

Pippin:" Much as I enjoy speculating about what's to come 
cough*vampires*cough* , I think we should not expect a grand 
resolution where all Snape's difficulties are revealed to be caused 
by (fill in the blank)."

Agree again. It's a life course thing, and being a vampire (or maybe 
worse, half-vampire) would be another oddity to make a kid stand out 
unfavorably in playground society.

Pippin:" I think the question JKR wants to deal with is not what 
makes people act like Snape. There can be lots of different reasons. 
But she wants us to see that people can be so valuable despite their 
faults that we ourselves will be crippled if we can't learn to put up 
with them. For Harry, it's a package deal. If he wants Hogwarts in 
his life, he's going to have to endure Snape."

Yes, but JKR is doing something else important.  She's introducing 
complexity to young readers about characters, especially good guys 
who aren't plaster saints.  Snape is a truly nasty son of a ______, 
but he's on the right side.  Harry's our hero, but he was plain 
unlikable for large portions of OotP.  We've been conditioned to tear 
down public figures who aren't perfect.

The scene that just has to happen is the one where Harry tells Snape 
that Harry and James Potter are two different people, that Harry 
doesn't like what his father did to Snape, and Snape ought to 
remember that.  Can Snape even absorb that statement? It'll be 
interesting to find out.

Jim





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Feb 17 16:04:23 2004
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:04:23 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c0rv1s+f5ij@...>
Message-ID: <c0te27+sr1v@...>


Jim:
 >>JKR is doing something else important.  She's introducing 
complexity to young readers about characters, especially good 
guys who aren't plaster saints.<<

Agreed. And the lurking corollary: plaster saints who aren't good 
guys.
  
Jim:
>>The scene that just has to happen is the one where Harry tells 
Snape that Harry and James Potter are two different people, that 
Harry doesn't like what his father did to Snape, and Snape ought 
to remember that.  Can Snape even absorb that statement? It'll 
be interesting to find out.<<

Funny about how we all have different ideas about what has to 
happen. <g> I don't see that scene coming at all. Harry's not an 
innocent victim anymore.  At the end of OOP, he is nursing a 
grudge against Snape as overblown, and potentially as 
dangerous, as Snape's old grudge against Sirius. That has to 
play out somehow.

 I think "Snape hates Harry because Harry reminds him of 
James" is a bit of a red herring. If Snape hated people who were 
popular and arrogant, he'd hate Draco Malfoy. IMO, Snape hates 
Harry because, underneath it all, Harry reminds him of *Snape*.

Pippin




From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Feb 17 16:19:47 2004
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:19:47 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c0te27+sr1v@...>
Message-ID: <c0tev3+6gvl@...>

Pippin:  Agreed. And the lurking corollary: plaster saints who aren't 
good  guys."

Right; she's done that with Lockheart, for example.  OTOH, there's 
plenty of examples of villains who seem good at first in literature.

Pippin:  Funny about how we all have different ideas about what has 
to  happen. <g> I don't see that scene coming at all. Harry's not an  
innocent victim anymore.  At the end of OOP, he is nursing a  grudge 
against Snape as overblown, and potentially as  dangerous, as Snape's 
old grudge against Sirius. That has to  play out somehow."

He is nursing that grudge, and it will play out; you're right.  But 
Harry's growing, and sooner or later he may come to the point of 
reminding Snape who he is and isn't.  It may become necessary, done 
at a time of great stress, or perhaps with a nudge from Dumbledore.  
I think it will happen in some form.

Pippin:   I think "Snape hates Harry because Harry reminds him of  
James" is a bit of a red herring. If Snape hated people who were  
popular and arrogant, he'd hate Draco Malfoy. IMO, Snape hates  Harry 
because, underneath it all, Harry reminds him of *Snape*."

I think the Harry/James hatred link is too clear and demonstrated to 
be completely false.  The fact Harry is popular and has friends is 
not the prime motivator for Snape's dislike, it just aggravates the 
situation.  How do you feel Harry reminds Snape of himself?

Jim





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Feb 17 21:56:53 2004
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:56:53 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c0tev3+6gvl@...>
Message-ID: <c0u2n5+b9uk@...>

I said:
> IMO, Snape hates  Harry  because, underneath it all, Harry 
reminds him of *Snape*."

Jim: 
>> I think the Harry/James hatred link is too clear and 
demonstrated to  be completely false.  The fact Harry is popular 
and has friends is  not the prime motivator for Snape's dislike, it 
just aggravates the  situation.  How do you feel Harry reminds 
Snape of himself?<<

I guess I'd put it the other way--Harry's resemblance to James 
aggravates the situation but the underlying cause is something 
else.  After all, Neville's not  like James and Snape picks on him 
too.

Harry was scrawny and undersized, started school with a 
reputation, had an unhappy home, clung to the wizarding world 
all the tighter for not being sure whether it would accept him,  
was suspected of being involved in the Dark Arts, was desperate 
to earn recognition--and has that saving people thing.  All of 
which seems much more like Snape than like James, although 
we can only guess at why Snape seems to be so alienated.

Pippin









From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid  Mon Feb 23 16:39:43 2004
From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:39:43 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c0u2n5+b9uk@...>
Message-ID: <c1dacf+2vag@...>

Jumping in here for short dip (and because I'm glad that the Old 
Crowd has revived a bit...)

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
<snip>
> 
> Harry was scrawny and undersized, started school with a 
> reputation, had an unhappy home, clung to the wizarding world 
> all the tighter for not being sure whether it would accept him,  
> was suspected of being involved in the Dark Arts, was desperate 
> to earn recognition--and has that saving people thing.  All of 
> which seems much more like Snape than like James, although 
> we can only guess at why Snape seems to be so alienated.
> 

But I don't think that that's how Snape saw him. I truly don't think 
that up to the Occlumency lesson, when Snape saw the dog chasing 
incident (with all it's accompanying humiliation), that he realized 
what Harry's childhood was really like. From Snape's reaction to 
Harry at the very beginning of PS, it's clear that he sees Harry as 
most of the WW sees him - a returned legendary hero. Only, unlike 
most of the WW (then), it drives him nuts that that's who Harry is, 
so he is obsessed to take him as many pegs down as he can. 
Later, JKR keeps on harping on how similar Harry is (physically and 
otherwise) to James. The physical similarity would strike Snape 
immediately, and since we now know that his loathing of James ran 
really deep (James being responsible to his worst memory), it seems 
almost inevitable that he would start off by loathing Harry.
Also, of course, Harry is a Gryffindor, and he immediately makes 
friends (whereas it would seem likely that Severus had to struggle 
quite a bit before getting accepted). 
Therefore, I doubt very much that Snape would see any likeness 
between himself and Harry.

Regarding a Harry-Snape denouement:
Thinking about the way JKR has ended GoF and PoA, and the 
relationship between the ending and the next book, makes me believe 
that Harry's deep grudge towards Snape is going to be a major element 
or theme in book 6: PoA ends with Pettigrew escaping - in GoF, his 
escape enables Voldemort's return. In GoF, Fudge refuses to believe 
Harry's tale - in OoP disbelief and suspicion of Harry/Dumbledore is 
central to the story. Soooo, OoP ends with Harry feeling an 
unreasoning, obsessive hatred to Snape - this hatred will be pivotal 
in book 6, somehow. 
Since OoP also ends with Harry trying to cast an Unforgivable, how 
about - in book 6 Harry will cast/be tempted to cast/will try to 
cast/will fail to cast an unforgivable curse at Snape?


Naama




From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Feb 24 01:45:27 2004
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:45:27 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c1dacf+2vag@...>
Message-ID: <c1eabn+71e7@...>

Naama: "All of  which seems much more like Snape than like James, 
although  we can only guess at why Snape seems to be so alienated."

I believe we've seen plenty of reasons for Snape's alienation; an 
unhappy home life, standing out in a negative way at school and being 
bullied are enough and more than enough.

Naama:" From Snape's reaction to Harry at the very beginning of PS, 
it's clear that he sees Harry as  most of the WW sees him - a 
returned legendary hero. Only, unlike  most of the WW (then), it 
drives him nuts that that's who Harry is
"

Yes. 

Naama:" (whereas it would seem likely that Severus had to struggle 
quite a bit before getting accepted)."

Was Snape ever accepted, other than in a limited way, a fellow 
teacher?  Wouldn't we like to take a look at the dynamics of the 
staff room?

Naama:" Since OoP also ends with Harry trying to cast an 
Unforgivable, how  about - in book 6 Harry will cast/be tempted to 
cast/will try to  cast/will fail to cast an unforgivable curse at 
Snape?"

I doubt he will. Harry's half-a***d Cruciatus at Bellatrix, in the 
midst of a wizards' fire fight, doesn't mean he's throwing major 
curses around now. 

I'd prefer the verbal confrontation scene, where Harry shoves it down 
Snape's throat that he's not James. It'll be an interesting moment if 
it comes.

Jim Ferer





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Feb 25 00:10:37 2004
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:10:37 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c1eabn+71e7@...>
Message-ID: <c1gp5u+n8nm@...>

I, not Naama, said:  "All of  which seems much more like Snape 
than like James,  although  we can only guess at why Snape 
seems to be so alienated."

Jim:
>> I believe we've seen plenty of reasons for Snape's alienation; 
an unhappy home life, standing out in a negative way at school 
and being bullied are enough and more than enough.<<

More than enough to explain why he joined the Death Eaters? I 
don't think so. There are loads of people with backgrounds like 
that who don't join criminal terrorist groups. 

 Naama said and Jim agreed:
>>" From Snape's reaction to Harry at the very beginning 
of PS,  it's clear that he sees Harry as  most of the WW sees him 
- a  returned legendary hero. Only, unlike  most of the WW (then), 
it  drives him nuts that that's who Harry is
"<<

Jim:
> I'd prefer the verbal confrontation scene, where Harry shoves it 
down  Snape's throat that he's not James. It'll be an interesting 
moment if  it comes.<

Agreed, Snape assumed that Harry was an arrogant little twerp.  
And he probably *thinks* that's why he hates him.  But Snape 
doesn't understand his feelings very well, does he? How can he, 
when he's spent much of his life learning to repress, deny and 
conceal them? 

It won't do any good for Harry to tell Snape he's not like James. 
As a matter of fact Harry has told Snape this already, in PoA: "My 
dad didn't *strut*," said Harry before he could stop himself. "And 
neither do I." 

Now, the first half of the statement is false and in 
more sense than one --a stag's gait is often described as 
strutting--but the second half is true.  Snape has had plenty of 
opportunity to observe it. Even Sirius realized quickly enough that 
Harry was a very different person than his father, and he saw a 
lot less of Harry than Snape has. 

Snape does not pick on cool, self-confident people. He admires 
arrogance--in the persons of Draco and Lucius--and he imitates 
it. He was attracted by it in his school days to the point of 
following James and Sirius around -- perhaps even to the point 
of joining Voldemort.

 But he torments the wretchedly insecure Neville and Harry. The 
one time  he's really brutal to Hermione is when she's already 
cowering in fear. And when Harry, who once was miserable for 
days over losing *two* house points, calmly accepts his 
punishment at the end of OOP, Snape has no more to say.

The scene *I* see coming is not Harry giving Snape what-for or 
forcing Snape finally to understand him.  Snape has had enough 
what-for in his life and even if you're Harry Potter, you can't 
*make* people understand you. All you can do is try, as hard as 
you can, to understand them.

 What I see is more on the order of Harry telling Snape that 
they're not so different after all. A LOTR moment when Snape 
looks into the heart of an enemy and finds  understanding and 
acceptance. That's going to be a long time coming, considering 
where Harry's head is at now, but it might come before the end. It 
wouldn't be fair to ask this of a child, but Harry won't be a child
for much longer. In Book 7, he'll be an adult. Harry's got to grow 
up and then, just maybe, Snape will too. 

Pippin




From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Feb 26 13:46:25 2004
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:46:25 -0000
Subject: Understanding Snape
In-Reply-To: <c1gp5u+n8nm@...>
Message-ID: <c1ktbh+66cl@...>

  Jim (me): I'd prefer the verbal confrontation scene, where Harry 
shoves it  down  Snape's throat that he's not James. It'll be an 
interesting  moment if  it comes."

Pippin: "It won't do any good for Harry to tell Snape he's not like 
James.  As a matter of fact Harry has told Snape this already, in 
PoA: "My  dad didn't *strut*," said Harry before he could stop 
himself. "And  neither do I." 

That's not much compared to Harry acknowledging that he knows some of 
the things his father did, doesn't like them, and repudiates them.

Pippin:" What I see is more on the order of Harry telling Snape that  
they're not so different after all. A LOTR moment when Snape  looks 
into the heart of an enemy and finds  understanding and  acceptance."

I definitely agree we could end up here or somewhere very close.

Pippin: "Even Sirius realized quickly enough that  Harry was a very 
different person than his father, and he saw a  lot less of Harry 
than Snape has."

Sirius has seen Harry under very different conditions, and Snape has 
no desire or even ability to see Harry as he really is at all.

Pippin:" It  wouldn't be fair to ask this of a child, but Harry won't 
be a child for much longer. In Book 7, he'll be an adult. Harry's got 
to grow up and then, just maybe, Snape will too. "

Well put. In many ways Harry's growing up very fast, but in others, 
the fantastic stress he's under makes a lot of normal growing-up 
tasks difficult for him.

Jim