From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Thu Jan 22 21:52:56 2004 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 21:52:56 -0000 Subject: Greetings Old Crowders!!! Message-ID: Hi folks!!! I just wanted to leave a post to say hi, I know there hasn't been much to talk about lately but I didn't want this club to be left abandoned. Keeping busy here. I'm in my last semester of my master's degree...aaarrrggghhh fun fun... Hope all is well with everyone, Kaitlin From keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid Thu Jan 22 23:00:47 2004 From: keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid (Stephanie Keener) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:00:47 -0500 Subject: something to read (was RE: [the_old_crowd] Greetings Old Crowders!!!) Message-ID: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539AA15AC3@...> HOW ODD -- I was just about to post myself and tell all of you that I just finished Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series (well, I haven't read the recent novella yet because Amazon is being very slow in getting it here) -- the first book is called The Golden Compass, originally published as The Northern Lights -- and I LOVED these books. I know other Potter fans will love these books too so go read them. I'd love to hear what you all think of them. Stephanie -----Original Message----- From: ReinaKata02 at ... [mailto:ReinaKata02 at ...] Sent: Thu 1/22/2004 4:52 PM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Cc: Subject: [the_old_crowd] Greetings Old Crowders!!! Hi folks!!! I just wanted to leave a post to say hi, I know there hasn't been much to talk about lately but I didn't want this club to be left abandoned. Keeping busy here. I'm in my last semester of my master's degree...aaarrrggghhh fun fun... Hope all is well with everyone, Kaitlin _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Mon Jan 26 18:53:40 2004 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:53:40 -0000 Subject: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) In-Reply-To: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539AA15AC3@...> Message-ID: Stephanie wrote: << HOW ODD -- I was just about to post myself and tell all of you that I just finished Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series (well, I haven't read the recent novella yet because Amazon is being very slow in getting it here) -- the first book is called The Golden Compass, originally published as The Northern Lights -- and I LOVED these books. I know other Potter fans will love these books too so go read them. I'd love to hear what you all think of them. >> I adore this trilogy too, and to think that I only decided to read them because I wanted something in the vein of Harry Potter whilst waiting 'Book 5'. In the end, I'd worked my way through a whole range of childlit/fantasy authors, including Philip Pullman, before OoP came along. I much prefer Philip Pullman over JKR as a writer and in the recent Big Read vote in the UK - for those who haven't heard of it - His Dark Materials (as a whole) was voted the nation's third most popular book, behind LotR and Pride and Prejudice. Goblet of Fire came fifth, with the first three HP books skirting the early 20s. I tend to regard Harry Potter as a literary phenomenon hanging in the balance, whereas HDM already has the stamp of literary classic. This is perhaps partly because HDM is a complete series and not an ongoing one, but I also feel that the HP series has become a little obese and directionless. I hope I'll feel differently by the time I reach the end of Book 7. Last week, I saw the first part of the two-part stage adapation of His Dark Materials at the National Theatre (NT) in London, and I'll be seeing part II this Wednesday. Those of you who've read the books will probably goggle at the idea of someone producing two plays from three books of such imagination and scale, but the NT has managed it, albeit with flaws, alterations and disappointments. The other HP comparison that always struck me about His Dark Materials was the fact that the first book was renamed for the American market to something that wasn't strictly accurate. The first book doesn't feature a golden compass, but it does feature something that might be described as such. In the same way, as we're all aware, the first Harry Potter book was renamed to refer to a magical-sounding Sorcerer's Stone rather than the more accurate Philosopher's Stone. Neil From tim_regan82 at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid Mon Jan 26 19:16:13 2004 From: tim_regan82 at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:16:13 -0800 Subject: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) Message-ID: Hi All, I love them too. Do check out the unabridged audio versions as well. They are read by a cast (including several actors from BBC Radio 4's long running farm soap opera "The Archers"), and are narated by Pullman himself. Really wonderful. I have to say that I preffer the American title (though I'm a Brit). It seems more coherent to have each book of the trilogy named after a device created by man. I saw Part I of the play last Friday, and I'll be seeing Part II this Friday, but I didn't enjoy it. When I get time I'll post my disapointments to http://www.bridgetothestars.net/forum/ but in the meantime here they are: 1) Too fast. It was paced solely as an adventure, which is only one level the books work on. 2) Puppets unbelievable. I love puppet shows, but it takes me 5-10 minutes before I find I'm immersed and not noticing that they are puppets. Since the dialogue between the actors and their daemons (i.e. the puppets) were so short, I never got a chance to get far enough to suspend disbelief. The lights in their eyes didn't help. They reminded me too much of Christmas decorations from Habitat. Timothy Dalton (Lord Asreil) acted with such intensity when interacting with his daemon, that I did find her believable. 3) Mrs Coulter wasn't sexy. Mrs Coulter has real power in the books, and a lot of it comes from her sensuality. Patrica Hodge is a great actress, but she didn't do sexy. 4) The withches. I imagine them as a proud Northern race. Instead they were like African S&M fetishists, extras from the Matrix. 5) The armoured bears. Aren't they supposed to be huge. The only thing that made them remotely believable (for me) was Lyra's reactions to them. 6) The leader of the Consitorial Court of discipline is a young scots man. But in the play they've dumped half a ton of talc on his hair. And his accent was from ... well who knows. (Still I shouldn't complain, mine when I'm reading Hagrid drifts all over the place). I'm not including the comic treatment of the Gyptians, or the omission of my favourite character (Mary Malone), or the ludicrous final motivation for Lord Asreil & Mrs Coulter, since I'd read the script beforehand so wasn't disapointed afresh. Cheers, Dumbledad. _________________________________________________________________ High-speed usersbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 From selah_1977 at selah_1977.yahoo.invalid Mon Jan 26 23:25:44 2004 From: selah_1977 at selah_1977.yahoo.invalid (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:25:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040126232544.91795.qmail@...> Hey, everyone-- I'm about 90% out of HP fandom, but I did stay subbed to this list to stay in touch w/ old friends... Let me fourth that Pullman recommendation. I'm currently semi-active on the Rutgers Child_Lit listserv, where Pullman and a whole host of children's and young adult lit authors not only belong, but weigh in on just about everything literary under the sun. From my experiences over the past six months, I find that Pullman's not only a talented author, but just about one of the most gracious people in the world. He's very responsive whenever people have questions about his work--for instance, I wanted to write (and now am writing) a teacher's guide to one of his understudied books and immediately entered into correspondence with him. A host of others are there, including lots of the more prominent Nimbus professor-types like Phil Nel and Eliza Dresang (who chaired this year's ALA awards). It's a great virtual place to hang out--not really fannish at all, but just a wonderful community of professional writers, librarians, teachers, and kidlit professors chatting about their craft, their practice, and everything else under the sun. The message volume's moderately heavy (25-50+ on an average day), but you learn so much from even just lurking about the wider context from which Rowling's series evolved. --Ebony Neil Ward wrote: Stephanie wrote: << HOW ODD -- I was just about to post myself and tell all of you that I just finished Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series (well, I haven't read the recent novella yet because Amazon is being very slow in getting it here) -- the first book is called The Golden Compass, originally published as The Northern Lights -- and I LOVED these books. I know other Potter fans will love these books too so go read them. I'd love to hear what you all think of them. >> I adore this trilogy too, and to think that I only decided to read them because I wanted something in the vein of Harry Potter whilst waiting 'Book 5'. In the end, I'd worked my way through a whole range of childlit/fantasy authors, including Philip Pullman, before OoP came along. I much prefer Philip Pullman over JKR as a writer and in the recent Big Read vote in the UK - for those who haven't heard of it - His Dark Materials (as a whole) was voted the nation's third most popular book, behind LotR and Pride and Prejudice. Goblet of Fire came fifth, with the first three HP books skirting the early 20s. I tend to regard Harry Potter as a literary phenomenon hanging in the balance, whereas HDM already has the stamp of literary classic. This is perhaps partly because HDM is a complete series and not an ongoing one, but I also feel that the HP series has become a little obese and directionless. I hope I'll feel differently by the time I reach the end of Book 7. Last week, I saw the first part of the two-part stage adapation of His Dark Materials at the National Theatre (NT) in London, and I'll be seeing part II this Wednesday. Those of you who've read the books will probably goggle at the idea of someone producing two plays from three books of such imagination and scale, but the NT has managed it, albeit with flaws, alterations and disappointments. The other HP comparison that always struck me about His Dark Materials was the fact that the first book was renamed for the American market to something that wasn't strictly accurate. The first book doesn't feature a golden compass, but it does feature something that might be described as such. In the same way, as we're all aware, the first Harry Potter book was renamed to refer to a magical-sounding Sorcerer's Stone rather than the more accurate Philosopher's Stone. Neil --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Tue Jan 27 17:12:08 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:12:08 +0100 Subject: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) Message-ID: > Stephanie wrote: > > << HOW ODD -- I was just about to post myself and tell all of you > that I just finished Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series > (well, I haven't read the recent novella yet because Amazon is being > very slow in getting it here) -- the first book is called The Golden > Compass, originally published as The Northern Lights -- and I LOVED > these books. I know other Potter fans will love these books too so > go read them. I'd love to hear what you all think of them. >> Neil added: > I adore this trilogy too, and to think that I only decided to read > them because I wanted something in the vein of Harry Potter whilst > waiting 'Book 5'. In the end, I'd worked my way through a whole > range of childlit/fantasy authors, including Philip Pullman, before > OoP came along. Hm, I know how much praise this trilogy usually gets, so I'd like so throw my (humble) opinion in. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to put anyone off from reading it, but to tell the truth, it didn't do much for me. I read "The Golden Compass" in 2000 after reading the first four HP books because it was recommended everywhere as being the perfect reading material for Potter fans. I think my main problem with TGC was that I didn't care for any of the characters. Not even for Lyra, don't ask me why, but there you are. I found most of them boring, and I found the plot rather boring. I finished it, but only got myself to pick up "The Subtle Knife" nearly two years later when "The Amber Spyglass" was released in paperback. Surprise, I found it rather well written, the new characters, especially Mary Malone, were a great addition. Unfortunately, it was a case of "bookus interruptus", it doesn't really have an ending of its own, so I continued straight away with "The Amber Spyglass". I think the story went downhill again in this third installment, and I found the ending of book 3 outright unsatisfying. From what I have read on the net since, I know I'm not alone with this opinion. Something that always struck me as odd is that Pullman, though being openly "anti-church" in these books, never got criticized the way Rowling gets criticized. After all, there are witches and magic in HDM, too. Monika From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Tue Jan 27 18:08:25 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:08:25 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) References: Message-ID: <08c801c3e500$8f0cb040$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- :::waves at everyone, especially Ebony::::::: Monika voiced my issues with HDM rather better than I might have, but I just wanted to add to something that she mentioned: <<<<>>>>>>>> I find this to be rather amusing on one hand. It's so clear that the Christian fundamentalist objections to HP are founded on what they *heard* through the media due to the media heavily saturating the American market with HP pieces for so many years. If they were actually *reading* children's literature in the main, they'd know that HDM presents a far greater threat to their interests than HP. I didn't actually know much about Pullman until I had finished HDM. I read all 3 books on a beach vacation a couple of years ago and came back to see in general what was being said on the internet. Being a Christian, I found Pullman's world view and anti-organized religion message in these books to be unsettling, and though I'm by no means the kind of person who avoids literature that challenges me to think about my viewpoints, I just couldn't shake the feeling of unease as I was reading them. I then of course found out that he is vehemently anti-organized religion. I'm still glad I read the series for myself, but I'd never re-read it. Like Monika, I also didn't particularly care for the characters, certainly not in the same sense as I do with HP. Penny (glad to see some life on this list again) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid Wed Jan 28 17:58:05 2004 From: bookworm at agassizde.yahoo.invalid (Monika Huebner) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:58:05 +0100 Subject: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) Message-ID: Penny said: > Monika voiced my issues with HDM rather better than I might have, > but I just wanted to add to something that she mentioned: I'm glad I'm not all alone with my opinion. Now I remember HDM has been discussed a bit a (long) while ago over at HPFGU when I was still active on that list. I remember someone saying that Book 1 was about torturing children, and this is just how I perceived it myself. It's not that I want my characters to be always happy and live happily ever after, but I found that what Mrs Coulter and her minions did to those children was gratuitous cruelty and reminded me a bit of experiments done by ruthless doctors in the Third Reich. Along the lines of: let's just try this and see what happens. There's violence in the HP series, too, but of a different quality IMHO. > I find this to be rather amusing on one hand. It's so clear that > the Christian fundamentalist objections to HP are founded on what > they *heard* through the media due to the media heavily > saturating the American market with HP pieces for so many years. > If they were actually *reading* children's literature in the > main, they'd know that HDM presents a far greater threat to their > interests than HP. Very good point. I am convinced that most of those declaring the HP books to be dangerous have never read them. There was a case like that in the German press not long ago (some time before Christmas), where someone had taken sentences out of context to "prove" that the HP books encourage criminal behavior and are thus dangerous for young readers. For example, "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." Of course the author of this pamphlet didn't say it was the incantation for the Marauder's map, and someone who hasn't read the books might very well conclude that his children should not read them. > I didn't actually know much about Pullman until I had finished > HDM. I read all 3 books on a beach vacation a couple of years > ago and came back to see in general what was being said on the > internet. Being a Christian, I found Pullman's world view and > anti-organized religion message in these books to be unsettling, > and though I'm by no means the kind of person who avoids > literature that challenges me to think about my viewpoints, I > just couldn't shake the feeling of unease as I was reading them. I am not a religious person, but I still found his message jarring. I don't mind religious overtones in SF or fantasy if the author handles it well, but Pullman didn't. And since I didn't find the overall world or the characters to my taste, it added to my dislike of the series. > I then of course found out that he is vehemently anti-organized > religion. I'm still glad I read the series for myself, but I'd > never re-read it. It's still on my shelf, but I don't think I'll re-read it either. At least not as long as I have hundreds of books that look more interesting, but of course reading tastes vary from person to person. Monika From keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid Thu Jan 29 01:16:13 2004 From: keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid (Stephanie Keener) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:16:13 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) Message-ID: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539AA15ADC@...> First of all, I have to say that I really love these books and agree whole heart with eveything Neil, Ebony, and Tim had to say. However, I also agree that they're pretty creepy. One of the reasons I think these novels are excellent is the fact that they are creepy. They certainly don't leave you with nothing to think about, do they? Any book or movie that creeps into your brian after you've finished it gets a thumbs up in my book -- even if I didn't like it. The movie Fargo, for example -- great movie, but I can not watch it. SPOILER ALERT! If you haven't read HDM do not read the rest of this e-mail! I think the thing that bothers me most is that Lyra and Will have sex at the end and these kids are 13! I know that some people will argue that they don't actually "go all the way" -- but they are clearly having VERY intimate contact, particularly by the standards of Lyra's world. What would we do if Harry and Hermione were sneaking off to the Forbidden Forest in PoA when THEY were 13? Certainly, Will and Lyra are having sex for a purpose in the context of the novel (even if they don't know that) and any intercourse Harry might have would be totally gratuitious within the context of HP. Still, 13, that's a wee bit on the young side (and, hey, I was no saint in high school). I get why they do it and I'm glad they did, but I really wish they were a little older. Is that just the mom coming out? Am I going to start telling young women to cover up that belly and find some decent pants? Thanks for the input. I read these with a reading group and I'm certainly printing out and taking with for our meeting. So what else are you all reading lately? Stephanie -----Original Message----- From: mo.hue at ... on behalf of Monika Huebner Sent: Wed 1/28/2004 12:58 PM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Cc: Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) Penny said: > Monika voiced my issues with HDM rather better than I might have, > but I just wanted to add to something that she mentioned: I'm glad I'm not all alone with my opinion. Now I remember HDM has been discussed a bit a (long) while ago over at HPFGU when I was still active on that list. I remember someone saying that Book 1 was about torturing children, and this is just how I perceived it myself. It's not that I want my characters to be always happy and live happily ever after, but I found that what Mrs Coulter and her minions did to those children was gratuitous cruelty and reminded me a bit of experiments done by ruthless doctors in the Third Reich. Along the lines of: let's just try this and see what happens. There's violence in the HP series, too, but of a different quality IMHO. > I find this to be rather amusing on one hand. It's so clear that > the Christian fundamentalist objections to HP are founded on what > they *heard* through the media due to the media heavily > saturating the American market with HP pieces for so many years. > If they were actually *reading* children's literature in the > main, they'd know that HDM presents a far greater threat to their > interests than HP. Very good point. I am convinced that most of those declaring the HP books to be dangerous have never read them. There was a case like that in the German press not long ago (some time before Christmas), where someone had taken sentences out of context to "prove" that the HP books encourage criminal behavior and are thus dangerous for young readers. For example, "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." Of course the author of this pamphlet didn't say it was the incantation for the Marauder's map, and someone who hasn't read the books might very well conclude that his children should not read them. > I didn't actually know much about Pullman until I had finished > HDM. I read all 3 books on a beach vacation a couple of years > ago and came back to see in general what was being said on the > internet. Being a Christian, I found Pullman's world view and > anti-organized religion message in these books to be unsettling, > and though I'm by no means the kind of person who avoids > literature that challenges me to think about my viewpoints, I > just couldn't shake the feeling of unease as I was reading them. I am not a religious person, but I still found his message jarring. I don't mind religious overtones in SF or fantasy if the author handles it well, but Pullman didn't. And since I didn't find the overall world or the characters to my taste, it added to my dislike of the series. > I then of course found out that he is vehemently anti-organized > religion. I'm still glad I read the series for myself, but I'd > never re-read it. It's still on my shelf, but I don't think I'll re-read it either. At least not as long as I have hundreds of books that look more interesting, but of course reading tastes vary from person to person. Monika Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From selah_1977 at selah_1977.yahoo.invalid Thu Jan 29 03:49:27 2004 From: selah_1977 at selah_1977.yahoo.invalid (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:49:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040129034927.74189.qmail@...> Hello, everyone-- Monika wrote: It's still on my shelf, but I don't think I'll re-read it either. At least not as long as I have hundreds of books that look more interesting, but of course reading tastes vary from person to person. *************************** Really, I think this is the crux of the matter for me. That reading tastes range the gamut... and I like Pullman so much that I'm sitting on an NEMLA panel this March in Pittsburgh entitled "The fantasy and the reality must connect: The Intersection of Genres in the Work of Philip Pullman". Two of us are writing on HDM, one is working on his Sally Lockhart chronicles, and I'll be looking at his YA issues novels. But I like him for different reasons than I do Rowling and Harry. Here's my rationale. I avoided HDM for a long time for the same reasons that I avoided HP for. I do agree that The Golden Compass was the slowest of the series, as it took me well over two years to finish the first chapter, but the second two books are much better in my opinion. In fact, my current bedside reading is *The Subtle Knife*, which is why I chimed in. There are just passages in this second one in particular that hit all the right chords. *The Amber Spyglass* was more unsettling and perhaps too muddy, but then again, I think that was authorial intent. I think Harry and Lyra's literary antecedents come from slightly different places. While Harry and his friends appeal to the best in us, Lyra and Will make grave mistakes and are much more morally ambiguous. Both Lyra and Will have antiheroic traits that make sense to me and that teens especially are drawn to. You don't fall in love with the characters in this world with the fervency that you do with those in the wizarding world, but I'd argue that one isn't supposed to. So while I love Harry, Ron, and Hermione, I do very much like Lyra and everyone in the HDM world. One wishes the wizarding world was real. But who would want to live in Mrs. Coulter's world? One author is giving us wish-fulfillment and escape; the other is writing an against-the-establishment tale. Rowling is interested in absolutes by her own admission, but Pullman doesn't believe absolutes exist in the first place. So one story tends more black and white and the other more gray. I enjoy both for different reasons. I love JKR's wizarding world so much that I spent three years playing in it! But I must say that I find Pullman's world-building extremely rich, especially Lyra's Oxford and Cittagazze. I am a HUGE fan of alternate histories, alternate Earths, and alternate universes, so Pullman had me from hello. Especially when he began The Subtle Knife by telling us that TGC was set in a world like ours but different... but "this book begins in our own world." I was hooked from that point on. Pullman plans to tell other tales in this milieu, and I think it will be interesting to see where he goes with it. Even though I am a Christian, Pullman doesn't unsettle me in that regard much. I don't equate the Authority plotline with genuine faith, and if Pullman was trying to preach an anti-gospel to me (which he is) I'm too dense to see it. I saw the Authority more as an Althusserian ISA-type org in that particular world. Once I got over the proximity of spelling to "demon", I found the concept of daemons fascinating. I did enjoy Mrs. Coulter's role in the series, and feel she is definitely a fully realized and interesting female villain. I *like* female villains. In fact, Pullman tends to privilege female protagonists, which is right up my alley. The thing I most like about Pullman's work is its complexity. One finds this not just in HDM, but in the Sally Lockhart series and in his YA issues novels like *The Broken Bridge* (which I teach and am currently writing criticism of) and *The Butterfly Tattoo* (which is *The White Mercedes* across the pond and begins with the tantalizing line "Chris Marshall met the girl he was going to kill on a warm night in early June..." Wow. Just *wow*--and the story that follows is poignant). Most of Pullman's canon, HDM and otherwise, isn't really intended for children at all, but for young adult readers. Perhaps that is why HDM turned out the way that it did. Of course, Will and Lyra *couldn't* have been teenagers, else the story plot wouldn't have worked at all, but he definitely seems more at home writing characters who are 15-18. I don't recommend Pullman to kids who are not in high school yet, and when my freshmen inevitably follow up *The Broken Bridge* with HDM, I send home a disclaimer. A final note is that HDM is very much a commentary on *Paradise Lost*, although Pullman himself once stated that he set out to write an anti-Narnia. I see more of Milton than Lewis in the series, though. So yes, I enjoy both the HP series and HDM, but I enjoy them for very different reasons. (Now I want to re-read The Amber Spyglass, just to remember why it was TSK and not that one which stuck with me. Sigh...) And if it makes you feel better, know that in my creative writing classes today, students had to bring in "their favorite passage in fiction ever." Five students chose selections from Harry Potter, and this is only Day 1 of at least three days of sharing. I grinned from ear to ear. See? Have not lost my first love. ;-) (Also bears noting that NONE of their selections were from OotP. *whistles*) --Ebony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Thu Jan 29 14:57:41 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:57:41 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) References: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539AA15ADC@...> Message-ID: <012401c3e678$3e9bae80$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- <<<>>>> "Tolkien & the Great War," "Bloodline of the Grail" (or something like that), "Franklin & Winston," "The Infertility Cure" and POA are all on my nightstand. Of more interest to this crowd might be two that I finished a few weeks ago: "Return of the Heroes: LOTR, Star Wars, HP and Social Conflict" (by Hal G.P. Colebatch (what a British name!!)) and "Faith in FantasyLands" by Russell Dalton. Colebatch's title is a bit misleading. The book is largely based on several conference papers he wrote in the early 1990s, well before HP was published. He's included a *bit* of HP discussion here and there, but it's clearly just been "worked in" to an existing framework. His true love is LOTR and that's the overall primary focus of the book. But, if you are a LOTR fan and/or interested in the Tolkien fan culture, etc., it's really a great read. Dalton's book was good, but it's largely the same grounds covered by Connie Neal (although the focus is more than on HP, as he includes significant discussion of both LOTR and Star Wars). Going on to Stephanie's spoiler space for HDM: S P O I L E R S P A C E <<<>>>> Yes, I was bothered by this too, based on their age. Despite being overall not too connected to the characters, being the hopeless romantic that I am, I did root for Will/Lyra ..... of course, that just made me hate the ending that much more. The other thing of note about this is that Pullman did handle that scene brilliantly in that it's totally open to interpretation as to whether they did "go all the way" as you say, Stephanie. Some adults I know have said they didn't believe they did have sex, while I think they did. Certainly children readers might be able to read that passage and not fully know what went on. It proves actually that JKR could introduce subtle sexual awakening in the HP-verse when the kids are more appropriately aged (in the 7th book for example). I don't think she will, based on what she's said in interviews ...... but she *could.* Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Thu Jan 29 16:08:24 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:08:24 -0000 Subject: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) In-Reply-To: <08c801c3e500$8f0cb040$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" wrote: >> Being a Christian, I found Pullman's world view and anti-organized religion message in these books to be unsettling, and though I'm by no means the kind of person who avoids literature that challenges me to think about my viewpoints, I just couldn't shake the feeling of unease as I was reading them. I then of course found out that he is vehemently anti-organized religion. I'm still glad I read the series for myself, but I'd never re-read it. Like Monika, I also didn't particularly care for the characters, certainly not in the same sense as I do with HP. << I enjoyed the writing and the characters, though I couldn't lose myself in the books at all. Obviously Pullman wants the reader to be shocked but I'm not a Christian, and my religion is organized very differently, so the shock value of challenging Christian concepts of divinity and religion is kind of lost on me. I had the same reaction to the DaVinci Code, which I finally got around to reading yesterday. It was entertaining anyway, though the puzzles were *much* too easy. Pippin From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Thu Jan 29 16:54:55 2004 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:54:55 -0000 Subject: something to read (i.e. His Dark Materials) In-Reply-To: <012401c3e678$3e9bae80$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: Hi all, I have to be brief, as I'm at work, but I was interested by some of the comments being made about HDM. I'm currently reading The Subtle Knife for the second time and last night I saw the second half of the stage adaptation, which I won't review at length, as I know Tim is seeing it tomorrow. I will say that it was much better than the first half and made fairly remarkable use of the National Theatre's multifunctional stage. I left feeling that the six hour theatrical experience had, overall, captured something of the books, despite having some gripes (some, but not all, similar to Tim's). a b i t o f s p o i l e r s p a c e I'd have to say I'm not keen on organised religion myself and regard myself as pretty much an atheist. I found it interesting that the story makes real many Christian ideas such as one God, angels, heaven and hell, the Garden of Eden and so on. It's certainly not the conventional Christian view of things, but neither is it irreligious. In fact, I found the exploration of love and death and the characterisation of the soul quite spiritually uplifting. The messages I took away were that belief and loyalty are good things, whilst blind faith and religious power are bad things. I'm a simple soul. Pullman explores faith, rather than simply pitching good against evil through the characters, which may be why he is criticised less then JKR. The comparison isn't quite as clear cut as that, but it's hard to pin down somewhat off the top of my head. On the 'sex' point, the idea of two children getting it on was a little unsettling, but I found Will and Lyra's relationship to be powerful and moving. On the one hand, it was addressing, apparently in a carnal way, the change from innocence to experience that comes with puberty, but on the other hand it was symbolic. Neil