From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid Tue Jul 6 19:08:31 2004 From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:08:31 -0000 Subject: book 6 title - what do you think? In-Reply-To: <20040630024014.17386.qmail@...> Message-ID: JoAnna wrote: > JKR has already said that it's neither Voldemort nor Harry, so we can rule them out. > Which begs the question - who is the half-blood prince? Right now, I see a four or five > possibilities. > > 1. Tom Riddle. JKR said that VOLDEMORT is not the half-blood prince - yet she said > nothing about Tom Riddle. And as we all know, with JKR semantics is a big deal. What > makes me think of this is Dobby's quote at the end of CoS: "Was giving you a clue, sir. > The Dark Lord, before he took his name, could be freely named, you see?" Harry shrugs > this off as Dobby being strange, but I believe this quote is the "something minor" in CoS > that will play a large role in HBP. IMO, this quote means that when LV took the name > "Lord Voldemort," Tom Marvolo Riddle ceased to exist for all intents and purposes. > However, we did see him in CoS in the form of the diary. And as JKR refuses to comment > further on what might have happened had Riddle managed to escape from the diary (see her > website), I think Tom Riddle may show up again. That's exactly what I was thinking...maybe she is being as sneaky as Dobby. > 5. An as-of-yet unintroduced character whose name and history we do not know. Perhaps > teh new DADA teacher? I don't think it is anyone who is has not been introduced, since JKR mentioned that this was a possible title for CoS and has lots of bits in it that were taken out of the early drafts of CoS. I think it will be someone who has previously had a minor role...JKR also mentioned that CoS has clues to help figure out what's going on in book 6. Maybe Seamus Finnegan? Maybe...NEVILLE??? He seems to be moving up the importance scale here. Maybe he has a secret we don't know about. By the way...I've always wondered about Harry's half-blood status. If James came from a wizard family and Lilly was a Muggle who became a witch, then isn't Harry kind of, well, 3/4-blood? Just a thought. Hope all is well with everyone, Kaitlin From lists at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 22 21:33:28 2004 From: lists at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:33:28 -0000 Subject: So over on OTC... Message-ID: People who we would call newbies are complaining that the list character is being destroyed by an influx of horrible newbies who are just talking about the silliest of things and things are going irrevocably downhill. I'm not sharing this to snark. I'm sharing this because it feels like deja vu all over again, and I wanted to share in the fun with those who Truly Understand. heidi From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 22 21:53:17 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (saitaina) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:53:17 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] So over on OTC... References: Message-ID: <005e01c47036$4cb08c00$01fea8c0@...> How many times has this discussion gone on in our years of residing there? There's always that moment where you look at the list and go "Whatever happened to the good old days.." *shrugs* Give em a few more years and then they can truly bitch about the decline in list behavior and content. At least they don't have to put up with "The twinkle in Dumbledore's eyes..." threads until their head spins around. Saitaina Who thinks the only list in true decline is -Movie **** "I laugh in the face of death...maybe not laugh more like a snicker...a quiet snicker, and I wouldn't do it directly in death's face so, it's more like a quiet snicker behind death's back. " http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From lists at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 22 21:55:27 2004 From: lists at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:55:27 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] So over on OTC... In-Reply-To: <005e01c47036$4cb08c00$01fea8c0@...> References: <005e01c47036$4cb08c00$01fea8c0@...> Message-ID: <1090533333.28A3D4EC@...> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 5:53pm, saitaina wrote: > at least they don't have to put up with "The twinkle in Dumbledore's eyes..." threads until their head spins around. Do they? We still don't know... Hm. Why was there a gleam? -------------------- : ducks Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 22 21:58:53 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (saitaina) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:58:53 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] So over on OTC... References: <005e01c47036$4cb08c00$01fea8c0@...> <1090533333.28A3D4EC@...> Message-ID: <006601c47037$149f1a60$01fea8c0@...> *throws pillows at Heidi* You are and evil, EVVVVILL woman. And the gleam was because he's evil and secretly working for Voldemort who is his long lost lover/brother and in the end Dumbledore will take over the world. So pth. *runs* Saitaina **** "I laugh in the face of death...maybe not laugh more like a snicker...a quiet snicker, and I wouldn't do it directly in death's face so, it's more like a quiet snicker behind death's back. " http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 22 20:47:56 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:47:56 EDT Subject: [the_old_crowd] So over on OTC... Message-ID: Hey, did you notice that when the spells came out of the wand in reverse order that James came *before* Lily? What do you suppose that means? This could be so kewl... *quickly runs away* -------------------------------------------------------------- *throws pillows at Heidi* You are and evil, EVVVVILL woman. And the gleam was because he's evil and secretly working for Voldemort who is his long lost lover/brother and in the end Dumbledore will take over the world. So pth. *runs* Saitaina **** "I laugh in the face of death...maybe not laugh more like a snicker...a quiet snicker, and I wouldn't do it directly in death's face so, it's more like a quiet snicker behind death's back. " http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/.DlolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links From lists at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid Thu Jul 22 23:56:20 2004 From: lists at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:56:20 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] So over on OTC... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1090540584.202E6D4D@...> Disclosure time: we get questions like this on Leaky all the time. Someday, we should ask steve to share the contents of his mailbag with us, too. On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 7:45pm, voicelady wrote: > Hey, did you notice that when the spells came out of the wand in > reverse order that James came *before* Lily? What do you suppose that > means? This could be so kewl... *quickly runs away* -------------------------------------------------------------- *throws pillows at Heidi* You are and evil, EVVVVILL woman. And the gleam was because he's evil and secretly working for Voldemort who is his long lost lover/brother and in the end Dumbledore will take over the world.? So pth. *runs* Saitaina **** "I laugh in the face of death...maybe not laugh more like a snicker...a quiet snicker, and I wouldn't do it directly in death's face so, it's more like a quiet snicker behind death's back. " http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->? Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/.DlolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 23 01:16:51 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (saitaina) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:16:51 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] So over on OTC... References: <1090540584.202E6D4D@...> Message-ID: <000901c47052$bcb31a60$01fea8c0@...> Heidi wrote: Sometimes I should disclose my RL question bag...being known as an HP expert causes odd times for questions...like when I'm in the middle of trying to get the Terror Twins (kids I watch) to stop doing something stupid...someone comes up and asks me who the Dark Lord is (actual question from a library patron once. I just gaped). Saitaina **** "I laugh in the face of death...maybe not laugh more like a snicker...a quiet snicker, and I wouldn't do it directly in death's face so, it's more like a quiet snicker behind death's back. " http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 23 01:18:06 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (saitaina) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:18:06 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] So over on OTC... References: Message-ID: <000d01c47052$e9103840$01fea8c0@...> That was bad. Very, Very bad *throws a CoS pillow* BAD! And it means that voldie's wand is smoking too much special herbs...or the demeanors were. Saitaina **** "I laugh in the face of death...maybe not laugh more like a snicker...a quiet snicker, and I wouldn't do it directly in death's face so, it's more like a quiet snicker behind death's back. " http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Fri Jul 23 01:27:32 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (saitaina) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:27:32 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] So over on OTC... References: <000d01c47052$e9103840$01fea8c0@...> Message-ID: <002001c47054$3a3c2340$01fea8c0@...> Er, I meant dementors not demeanors. *stabs spell checker to death* Sorry guys. Saitaina **** "I laugh in the face of death...maybe not laugh more like a snicker...a quiet snicker, and I wouldn't do it directly in death's face so, it's more like a quiet snicker behind death's back. " http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 24 15:28:05 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:28:05 -0000 Subject: So over on OTC... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" wrote: > > I'm not sharing this to snark. I'm sharing this because it feels > like deja vu all over again, and I wanted to share in the fun with > those who Truly Understand. > ::suspicious cough:: You won't be surprised to learn that some people have suggested offlist to the Elves that it would be nice if there were a list where Oldbies could discuss things quietly, without a lot of confunded newbies hanging on the bell... Pippin From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sat Jul 24 21:15:57 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:15:57 -0000 Subject: So over on OTC... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > ::suspicious cough:: You won't be surprised to learn that some > people have suggested offlist to the Elves that it would be nice if > there were a list where Oldbies could discuss things quietly, > without a lot of confunded newbies hanging on the bell... Would such a list be any more ACTIVE than this list? From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid Wed Jul 28 06:09:56 2004 From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:09:56 -0000 Subject: Ron in the Background ....... or not (Long) In-Reply-To: <184401c45610$9797f400$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: I apologise for the delay in my reply to Penny's very thorough post. First there were houseguests, and then the more I thought about what I wanted to write, the longer it got! I'll try to limit the scope of this post to just addressing some of the points raised. Penny wrote: > Debbie believes that Rowling is only concerned with preventing errors that affect future plot developments, and hasn't concerned herself with characterization so much. > BUT, on the COS DVD interview with Rowling and Kloves, I have the distinct impression of collaboration ..... or at least that Kloves has great access to JKR when he wants it. This implies to me that if Rowling were truly as upset about Ron's characterization in the films, she might have stepped in. I do believe I remember reading also that she has script approval. So, I think all in all, I'd still be a little disturbed by this trend in the films if I were a Ron fan. Which I am not. I can't say that I didn't find Kloves treatment of Ron's character annoying, but I don't really think it foreshadows anything more than the fact that any future movies scripted by him will probably continue this approach until the plot forces him to do otherwise...or not. While considering this point, I thought of two other movies adapted from books that I've seen recently: Seabiscuit (non-fiction), and The Stepford Wives (fiction). The authors of both of these books are still living and in the case of Seabiscuit, actually worked on the movie (although someone else wrote the screenplay) and in each case the characters in the movies behaved very differently from the ones in the books. The main character in Seabiscuit (Red Pollard) actually does something in the film that (according to the author) he could never have done in real life, and that is in direct opposition to what she describes him doing in the book. In the Stepford Wives, they not only change the main characters, they changed the plot entirely, making a dark comedy from a horror story. My point is that by now JKR is probably pretty sophisticated about the whole process of converting books to movies. Considering what could have happened to her story (Spielberg version, complete with Hogwarts cheerleaders), she is probably content to have them follow her major plot-points, not contradicting important features of her world while painting all the characters with a *very* broad brush. While Ron's case was most egregious IMO, Harry, Hermione, and Draco's characters were also mis-characterized to varying degrees. Considering the way many book authors have been treated during the film adaptations of their work, I imagine that she feels that on the whole, she's been treated pretty well by WB. I don't think that I've heard about her having script approval, though. The interviews I've seen just seem to show that she's given Kloves as much access as he needs to complete the scripts and is available to the director, if he wants to ask questions. Ron's treatment in the films has no effect on the way she develops his character in the books. And let's face it, if there's anything she's unhappy about in the films, it's very unlikely that she'd ever go public with it while they're still being churned out. Like me, I suspect she's just glad that they aren't a whole lot worse, because they certainly could be. > HERMIONE AS HEROINE / RON ON THE SIDELINES: Penny wrote: > GoF wasn't too terribly obvious in that regard, and so it wasn't until we had OOP that I started thinking about whether this was a narrative arc, a trend. We have the Harry and Hermione Show in the true action of PoA (beautifully done in the film, I might add! ), whilst Ron is "unable to walk." In GoF, we have really Harry on his own more than ever before ....... with Hermione having perhaps a slight edge in that Harry and Ron aren't speaking for a time, but really Ron and Hermione contribute somewhat equally overall to the main action of GoF (which is to say, not much). But, in OOP, we're back to the POA model and then some. >From Penny's Lexicon essay: > "Significantly, Harry and Hermione share in the key moments of the events depicted in OoP as a pair. It is Harry and Hermione together who accompany Hagrid to the Forest to meet Grawp (604-618). It is Harry and Hermione together who steal into Umbridge's office to check on Sirius' whereabouts (651-653). It is Harry and Hermione together who accompany Umbridge into the Forest (660). > > > And, finally, Hermione is with Harry and Neville (both of whom may be integral to the final resolution of the series) when the group is split in two at the Department of Mysteries." (Boy, it's hard to snip when there are so many important points to be addressed ). I also see a definite narrative arc developing, but it's very different from the one Penny sees. I should start by saying that one of the things I love most about these books is that each of the characters in the trio are such real and distinct personalities that it's hard to remember that they aren't real people. While Harry's development is the main focus, both Ron and Hermione have their own individual character arcs, and their own challenges they must overcome which really have very little to do with Harry. In trying to keep this post from getting any longer than absolutely necessary, I'll confine myself to what I see happening with Harry. The beginning of the series has Harry essentially alone in the world, and relying only on himself. By the end of PS/SS, he has learned to depend on Ron and Hermione to help him do what needs to be done (as well as be his friends), but in the books that follow he's not ever willing to reach out to anyone else until he writes to Sirius at the beginning of GoF (and he regrets that when it results in Sirius returning to Britain to be near him). In GoF it begins to be apparent that Ron and Hermione, while still his closest friends, are no longer able to always provide him with all the help he needs. This is most evident while he's preparing for the second task. First, he receives unwanted but badly needed advice from Cedric and as a result, is able to decipher the clue from the egg. After that, no matter how hard they try, Ron and Hermione fail utterly in helping Harry find a way to survive underwater, and end up leaving him on his own. If only he'd thought to ask the boys in his dorm for help, Neville could have easily provided the information he needed (which is what Crouch/Moody expected). Because he doesn't do that, he's left completely unable to accomplish the task without Crouch/Moody manipulating Dobby into providing Gillyweed at the very last minute. OOP fully develops this theme right from the start. He's isolated from Ron and Hermione, first in Little Whinging and later when he's put on trial at the Ministry. They are sympathetic, but unable to be of any real help to him, and without help from Mrs. Figg and Dumbledore, he'd have been expelled. Later on the Hogwarts Express, Harry has to begin the journey without Ron for the very first time, because he and Hermione have prefect duties. He has to depend on Ginny to find him a place with Neville and Luna on the train, which begins the set-up for later developments all through the book. Again, Ron and Hermione are still his best friends, but while they try their best to help him, in the end their efforts are just not enough. Penny wrote: > Again, I do think that there is authorial choice involved in all these decisions, and in each case, I'm not entirely clear why Ron wasn't included. Yes, he's playing Quidditch when Harry and Hermione meet Grawp. But, he *could* have been included in the other sequences, had Rowling chosen this route. I really don't think he could have been included in the other sequences though, and still have followed the necessary development path JKR laid out for him in OOP. We'll have to discuss that in another post, though . Penny continued: >Maybe Debbie's right, and she's setting up a more dramatic "Big Fall" for Hermione. Maybe. But, I think it is obvious that Ron has a lesser role in OoP than he might have done, and I have to wonder, in combination with what's being done to his character in the films, what that might mean. And, if you start thinking that maybe PoA was simply the beginning of a big arc with regard to Trio dynamics ..... it's just interesting to consider. For the record, I agree with Debbie about Hermione being set up for a fall, but that has to do with Hermione's separate character development, and I'm focusing on Harry's at the moment. I think that it's important to look beyond the limits of the trio at this point in order to see the story arc that I believe JKR is developing, not just from PoA, but from the very beginning. Penny continued: > I also think that it's incredibly significant that it is Hermione and Neville who are left with Harry in the DoM. I'm not at all convinced that Rowling just flipped a coin or randomly decided to split the 6 characters up in this fashion with no goal in mind. Well, let's examine the DoM action overall and see what we can figure out . I agree that Neville *had* to be with Harry in this sequence, but in considering all the others, I'm not sure that Hermione's presence was more than the result of process of elimination. It just wouldn't have been believable IMO, to have Ron be separated from Ginny; he'd be far to protective in that situation to ever leave her side. If the party of 6 had to be split, and if Neville has to be with Harry for plot reasons, then the only ones left are Hermione and Luna. I suppose Luna could have been the third member, but given Neville's unreliable magical abilities and Luna's oddness, Hermione does seem to be the more reasonable choice. Penny concludes: > Certainly I would expect that if it had been *Ginny* who was with Harry and Neville, the H/G shippers would be proclaiming the narrative significance of this choice with great glee ..... so I feel justified in reaching the same conclusion. Obviously Rowling was signaling Harry and Neville as doppelgangers ..... as two people linked by the Prophecy ..... and two characters who may both have equally big roles to play in the final end-game. If Hermione is included with them, isn't that significant? I think so. I really don't see any shipping significance in the DoM sequence at all, so I'm not making any points about that one way or the other. Here's what I find most significant about the story arc in OOP: Harry now needs more help and support than Ron and Hermione can give him, and in this book, he must learn to reach out to others outside the trio, if he's going to survive. When Harry is sick with worry that he's been posessed by Voldemort he's forgotten that Ginny actually was posessed until she reminds him. She's the only one who can really tell him what that's like and once she does, he feels better. Later on when he's in a panic about his vision of Sirius with Voldemort, he completely forgets that Snape is a member of the Order. Ron and Hermione also forget this, and as a result are of no real help in averting Sirius' death. Ron and Hermione are the only two (of the sextet at the DoM) who arent' entranced by the veil. I don't understand what this means, but I'm sure it's significant. In a way, Ron and Hermione are still "innocent" (for lack of a better term), in a way that Harry and the others are not. Neither of them have experienced horror and pain on the same level as Harry, Neville, Ginny or Luna. As a result, they are also unable to see the thestrals (although Ginny is also unable to see them). Ron and Hermione are the first two to be incapacitated in the battle with the Deatheaters and they are the only ones to be seriously injured. They remain in the hospital ward for some time after returning to Hogwarts, effectively separating them from Harry again. Harry cannot discuss Sirius' death with either Ron or Hermione, but manages to do so with Luna. He even takes some comfort from his talk with her, while finding no comfort anywhere else. Finally, on the journey home on the Hogwarts Express, who are his defenders when Malfoy & Co. attempt yet another sneak attack? This time it's members of the DA, who've all learned the spells and hexes they need from Harry, himself. This time, neither Ron, Hermione, Neville, Luna, or Ginny are involved. His circle of support has just widened even further. So, while Penny sees Harry being separated from just Ron in the continuing story arc, I'm seeing him having to move outside the charmed circle of the trio, effectively distancing him from both Ron and Hermione. They are still his best friends (and I still think that Ron is the "thing" he would miss most), but he now needs more than they alone can give him. Luckily, the groundwork has been laid in OOP for Harry to have much broader support, and just in time, too. Jo Serenadust, who can't believe how long this post still is (and that it's 2 am!