From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 07:18:15 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:18:15 +0000 Subject: John the Baptist? Message-ID: Hi everyone, I've been exchanging e-mails with Mike Gray recently, and just happened to mention JKR's alleged quote regarding the fact that anyone who knows their bible has a pretty good idea about how the series is going to end. I've head this mentioned in conjunction with John the Baptist, but I can't remember where - or even, what the theory is. Can anyone elucidate (Richard, maybe?) so I can prove to Mike that I'm not on LSD? Catherine From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 13:24:11 2004 From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:24:11 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Catherine: That's a real quote by Rowling. I have it linked somewhere. I can't remember where it's from right off the top of my head. John Granger mentioned it in his book and I wondered about it, so I tracked it down. I'll have to check, but I'm rather in the midst of a hurricane right now. Do me this favor: pester me about it. Seriously. Write me an email every day or so until I get a chance to find it. I don't mind the reminder, really I don't. It's helpful. Steve _____ From: Catherine Coleman [mailto:catherine at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:18 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Hi everyone, I've been exchanging e-mails with Mike Gray recently, and just happened to mention JKR's alleged quote regarding the fact that anyone who knows their bible has a pretty good idea about how the series is going to end. I've head this mentioned in conjunction with John the Baptist, but I can't remember where - or even, what the theory is. Can anyone elucidate (Richard, maybe?) so I can prove to Mike that I'm not on LSD? Catherine _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 14:50:45 2004 From: mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:50:45 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458314@...> Quoth Steve, > That's a real quote by Rowling. I have it linked somewhere. I > can't remember where it's from right off the top of my head. > John Granger mentioned it in his book and I wondered about > it, so I tracked it down. I'll have to check, but I'm rather > in the midst of a hurricane right now. Do me this favor: > pester me about it. Seriously. I'd give more than a daily pester-mail for that Link, Steve. Heck, that one would be worth an hourly nuisance-notice, or even a vigorous buttering up. I haven't been active in Potterdom lately (I even lost the access codes to my gosh-darn website, which looks pathetically out of date ... ) but I *have* kept up with anything that looked remotely like an interview. And this is NEW, to me at least. BTW, I'm getting my hooves back into Potterdom. I've been out for quite a while, but by the looks of it, I'll be back with a vengeance by this summer. My dissertation plans are going very well, so it looks like I'll end up with one of the very few P(otter)h(olics)D's out there ... I'm really excited! BTW, in case anyone is interestd: The dissertation is going to involve a theological reading of three authors: Rowling (HP), Pullman (His Dark Materials) and Lahaye (Left Behind). I'm interested in the way popular fantasy novels can help create, solidify or undermine the way people read their religious life-stories. Of course, I also have final MA exams to pass, not to mention a nasty church crisis that was provoked by my publishing an article ... ... supporting HP. At the moment, I'm actually hoping to find a way of getting fired without tearing my church apart. It isn't fun. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who will pester for hours on end for this link - but realized that he really mustn't bug anyone for it. You have to draw the line somewhere, especially with Brits around.) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 15:01:47 2004 From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:01:47 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458314@...> Message-ID: Hi, Mike! Yes, it's real. I will find it for you, and please do keep pestering until I do. I really don't mind, I appreciate it. She said basically that she's glad not too many people ask about her faith because if she talked too much about it, people would be able to figure out how the whole thing ends. I'm sorry to hear that you're in the middle of it we regards to HP. I suffered similarly a few years ago, as you might remember, and it, well, sucks. If there's any way I can help, let me know. I'm reading an advance copy of John Granger's new book, coming out in June from Tyndale, and while he goes off on a few tangents I don't like (Harry Potter as heir of the Potter, as in God) he does have a good handle on why these books are not just okay but actually triumphantly Christian. Nice to hear from you! There hasn't been a lot of interview stuff to add, except I think there's an interview with Jeremy Paxman with the BBC from the day before OP was released that you don't have. (or maybe you do...I didn't find it, but that proves nothing). I will be doing a LOT more Lexicon work after April, when all my plays and shows are done and I can relax a bit. I have an assistant editor doing a lot of things for me right now, otherwise my site would be as out of date as anything. Please keep reminding me. I will find it. Steve _____ From: Aberforth's Goat [mailto:mike at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:51 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Quoth Steve, > That's a real quote by Rowling. I have it linked somewhere. I > can't remember where it's from right off the top of my head. > John Granger mentioned it in his book and I wondered about > it, so I tracked it down. I'll have to check, but I'm rather > in the midst of a hurricane right now. Do me this favor: > pester me about it. Seriously. I'd give more than a daily pester-mail for that Link, Steve. Heck, that one would be worth an hourly nuisance-notice, or even a vigorous buttering up. I haven't been active in Potterdom lately (I even lost the access codes to my gosh-darn website, which looks pathetically out of date ... ) but I *have* kept up with anything that looked remotely like an interview. And this is NEW, to me at least. BTW, I'm getting my hooves back into Potterdom. I've been out for quite a while, but by the looks of it, I'll be back with a vengeance by this summer. My dissertation plans are going very well, so it looks like I'll end up with one of the very few P(otter)h(olics)D's out there ... I'm really excited! BTW, in case anyone is interestd: The dissertation is going to involve a theological reading of three authors: Rowling (HP), Pullman (His Dark Materials) and Lahaye (Left Behind). I'm interested in the way popular fantasy novels can help create, solidify or undermine the way people read their religious life-stories. Of course, I also have final MA exams to pass, not to mention a nasty church crisis that was provoked by my publishing an article ... ... supporting HP. At the moment, I'm actually hoping to find a way of getting fired without tearing my church apart. It isn't fun. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who will pester for hours on end for this link - but realized that he really mustn't bug anyone for it. You have to draw the line somewhere, especially with Brits around.) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Click HereClick Here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 14:40:31 2004 From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:40:31 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <200403021358.i22DwjjQ029158@...> Message-ID: Well, I didn't realize that was going to the whole Old Crowd group. Don't ALL of you pester me now. And if one of you has it handy, save me the trouble. All the best Steve _____ From: Steve Vander Ark [mailto:vderark at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:24 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Hi, Catherine: That's a real quote by Rowling. I have it linked somewhere. I can't remember where it's from right off the top of my head. John Granger mentioned it in his book and I wondered about it, so I tracked it down. I'll have to check, but I'm rather in the midst of a hurricane right now. Do me this favor: pester me about it. Seriously. Write me an email every day or so until I get a chance to find it. I don't mind the reminder, really I don't. It's helpful. Steve _____ From: Catherine Coleman [mailto:catherine at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:18 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Hi everyone, I've been exchanging e-mails with Mike Gray recently, and just happened to mention JKR's alleged quote regarding the fact that anyone who knows their bible has a pretty good idea about how the series is going to end. I've head this mentioned in conjunction with John the Baptist, but I can't remember where - or even, what the theory is. Can anyone elucidate (Richard, maybe?) so I can prove to Mike that I'm not on LSD? Catherine _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 16:35:47 2004 From: mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:35:47 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458315@...> Hi Steve! Steve wrote, > Yes, it's real. [....] > She said basically that she's glad not too many people ask > about her faith because if she talked too much about it, > people would be able to figure out how the whole thing ends. Amazing. Do you know - off the top of you head - when this interview took place? It is reminiscient of a GoF interview with Evan Solomon where she says, in response to questions about God, that he should "come back when I've written book seven." And was there really something about John the Baptist?? > I'm sorry to hear that you're in the middle of it we regards > to HP. I suffered similarly a few years ago, as you might > remember, and it, well, sucks. If there's any way I can help, > let me know. Thanks Steve - and yes, I do remember. I prayed for you then, and I've thought of you on occasion over the last month or so. What happened to you, anyway? BTW, the article in question was arguing for the point you mention later in your post: if you read JRK the way she wants to be read, and if you agree with her, you'll end up thinking about yourself and the world in deeply Christian terms. I also argued that the best way to encourage people - especially teenagers - to derive an anti-Christian message from the books is to run around screaming that they're Satanic. People who think they are eating forbidden fruit aren't usually very rational about it. People have an odd propensity for finding what they're looking for ... Anyway, my arguments aren't really the point just now, since everyone concerned has stated that they don't want to hear them, aren't interested, sorry pleaese just stop. They're willing to accept that I do weird Pottery things in private, but they feel that I crossed the line by publishing a serious article that implicitly brought HP into connection with my/their/our church. Some of their friends who have read the article (or read the title, at least, or read the blurb next to somebody else's article that misquoted mine ... ) were shocked, and they feel that I've given all of us a bad reputation. The whole thing spiraled out of control a week or so back ... At the moment, I don't actually know what they want to do about it. What I do know is that I simply can't lead a church like this. The issues are important to me, and I'm not ready to wear a muzzle or give seminars wearing a false mustache just to make sure that no one gets the impression that my church might actually condone or even (gasp!) be proud of my beliefs. > I'm reading an advance copy of John Granger's > new book, coming out in June from Tyndale, and while he goes > off on a few tangents I don't like (Harry Potter as heir of > the Potter, as in God) he does have a good handle on why > these books are not just okay but actually triumphantly Christian. I don't have his book - I'll need to pick it up at some point. I did read - well, no, skim - an article on a catholic website in which he argues for the "alchemical structure" of the series, and my eyebrows got cramped into a pretty skeptical arch. I'll give him another short, if you say he's good. * * * * BTW, are any of you folks planning on attending this conference? It's a wee bit on the conservative Catholic side for my tastes - but if it weren't so expensive I'd be there. There should be a couple of HP related presentations - and the folks running the con are generally pro-HP (and anti Pullman, by the by). Info: Landscapes with Angels: Fantasy, Children's Literature and the Spiritual Role of the Imagination http://www.secondspring.co.uk/fantasy/conference.htm * * * * Also BTW: where *do* you folks hang out these days? Hopefully, I'm not talking to an empty house. I don't really feel like spilling my guts about the church situation on OT Chat, though ... Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 16:45:12 2004 From: mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:45:12 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458315@...> Message-ID: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458316@...> Blathered goat, > she says, in response to questions > about God, that he should "come back when I've written book seven." Evan Solomon can come back, that is. Not God. Though, all things considered, I could take it either way. Apre Harry le deluge, so to speak. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who has once again proved that you can committ a faux paw even if you have hooves.) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 16:04:25 2004 From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:04:25 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <200403021544.i22FiZjQ027939@...> Message-ID: Okay, here's what I could find quickly. I don't have the full transcript in hand, but someone who has access to the archives of the Vancouver Sun could maybe do us a huge favor and find it. This is from an article in Vancouver Sun: HEADLINE `You can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think': Author has frank words for the religious right BYLINE Max Wyman SOURCE Vancouver Sun Harry, of course, is able to battle supernatural evil with supernatural forces of his own, and Rowling is quite clear that she doesn't personally believe in that kind of magic -- ``not at! all.'' Is she a Christian? ``Yes, I am,'' she says. ``Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.'' Hopefully this will be helpful. Like I said, I don't have the full transcript in hand, and I would like it Steve _____ From: Steve Vander Ark [mailto:vderark at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:41 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Well, I didn't realize that was going to the whole Old Crowd group. Don't ALL of you pester me now. And if one of you has it handy, save me the trouble. All the best Steve _____ From: Steve Vander Ark [mailto:vderark at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:24 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Hi, Catherine: That's a real quote by Rowling. I have it linked somewhere. I can't remember where it's from right off the top of my head. John Granger mentioned it in his book and I wondered about it, so I tracked it down. I'll have to check, but I'm rather in the midst of a hurricane right now. Do me this favor: pester me about it. Seriously. Write me an email every day or so until I get a chance to find it. I don't mind the reminder, really I don't. It's helpful. Steve _____ From: Catherine Coleman [mailto:catherine at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:18 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Hi everyone, I've been exchanging e-mails with Mike Gray recently, and just happened to mention JKR's alleged quote regarding the fact that anyone who knows their bible has a pretty good idea about how the series is going to end. I've head this mentioned in conjunction with John the Baptist, but I can't remember where - or even, what the theory is. Can anyone elucidate (Richard, maybe?) so I can prove to Mike that I'm not on LSD? Catherine _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Click HereClick Here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 19:20:07 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:20:07 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? References: <200403021659.i22GoDD2016576@...> Message-ID: <01d001c4008b$5f9438a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- Oh, it's so good to see posts from Catherine, Mike and Steve all in one day! Steve, below my signature is allegedly the full transcript of the article in question ...... it comes to you via: Linda McCabe (athena) writing to Professor Terry Mattingly about his mention of that specific quote in a syndicated column he writes, and his reply included a cut & paste of the entire article, which Athena then forwarded to a little H/H debate group I belong to. So, it may not be a *perfect* transcription, but one hopes it's close. There's no date given. I don't know where the John the Baptist reference might have originated. Mike, I would be well and truly *fascinated* to read your article. Can you let us know how we might get a copy? :--) Re: John Granger. I'm in regular contact with him; we got to be buddies in the pre-Nimbus days. I agree with Steve that some of his theories are a tad farfetched (the name thing that Steve mentioned), but in general, I enthusiastically recommend his work to anyone interested in the subject. Re: alchemy --- this was the subject of his talk at Nimbus, and it got him a standing ovation. I'd be interested to hear more details about why your eyebrows stretched so skeptically at the alchemy angle, Mike, since I thought it all made perfect sense (but again, I don't necessarily know much about alchemy at all prior to reading Granger's work, so I'm *certainly* no expert!). Penny LKW WRITERS; BOOKS; YOUTH NAME * J.K. ROWLING HEADLINE `You can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think': Author has frank words for the religious right BYLINE * Max Wyman SOURCE Vancouver Sun J.K. Rowling no longer wears the red tresses that became familiar to millions when her fictional creation, Harry Potter, launched her into the stratosphere of international media fame. She has dyed her shortened locks a generic blond, leaving the dark roots showing. Woman's privilege, we wonder. But no: the long red hair and bangs were making her too recognizable, she says. The new look frames intense, dark eyes and a pale, serious face. Here on one of the most lavishly hyped publicity tours in literary history, she has just handled a half-hour question session with a group of selected children, and another half-hour of polite but mostly lackadaisical quizzing by the Vancouver media. She's an old hand at this by now. The fourth book in the series, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, has just been launched, with hardback sales in Canada alone topping a million. Superstar? Of course, but there's a no-nonsense, unpretentious air about the way she handles herself. Most of the questions have been asked a million times, but she fields them all with courtesy and good humour spiced with a tart British wit. Now I'm getting 15 minutes of exclusive interview, one on one, and, given the constraints of time, I decide to focus on a topic that has been becoming increasingly important as the four books have appeared: the moral significance of the stories, and the proper use of power. * If you've been keeping abreast of the Rowling news, you'll recall that she has repeatedly come under fire from some parts of the religious right for writing about wizardry and witchcraft, and for portraying the endless conflict between good and evil through boldly etched fantastical characters. Harry Potter, a student at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, is constantly thrown up against dark forces, particularly the ultimate evil, Lord Voldemort. So far, despite all the odds, Potter and the forces of virtue and decency have triumphed. The moral significance seems clear. * ``It does to you,'' says Rowling. ``And to me it's so blindingly obvious. But when this first became an issue I would take an enormous amount of time to explain what I thought was so obvious. ``Now I am starting to get impatient because I feel that you can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think. And you can quote me, actually, because I'm just getting impatient about it.'' It's the testiest she has been all morning. But you can hardly blame her. The books can hardly be clearer about her intentions. At the end of the latest, one of the forces of good, the Hogwarts headmaster Dumbledore, laments a death that has happened and says: ``Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good and kind and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort.'' * That, says Rowling, was the key for her: the choice between what is right and what is easy, ``because that, that is how tyranny is started, with people being apathetic and taking the easy route and suddenly finding themselves in deep trouble.'' This, she said, was the first point at which she cried during the writing of the series. Even the chapter in the first book that (she realized later) was based on her mother's death, ``even that didn't make me cry; I had never cried until I wrote that.'' That sense of moral responsibility, does she see it making Harry a moral figure for kids to emulate? ``I see him as a good person but with a human underbelly,'' she says. ``He is vulnerable, he is frequently afraid, he has a very strong conscience, and it is my belief that with the overwhelming majority of human beings -- maybe I'm a wild optimist -- most people do try to do the right thing, by their own lights.'' * He sounds, I tell her, like a definition of Rowling herself, though she usually tells interviewers she's most like Harry's chum Hermione. ``Yes,'' she admits, ``there's an awful lot of me in Harry, but probably me as I am older. Harry is an old soul, and you meet children like that.'' Harry, of course, is able to battle supernatural evil with * supernatural forces of his own, and Rowling is quite clear that she doesn't personally believe in that kind of magic -- ``not at all.'' Is she a Christian? ``Yes, I am,'' she says. ``Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.'' * A plank in the Rowling mythology is the fact that outlines for all seven books planned for the series have been firmly laid down since she began to write the first; she has even written the last chapter of book seven. Why spoil the fun? So we talk about power, which seems to be at the basis of the tales: magic power, the power of parents over kids, the struggle between the power of good and the power of evil -- ``yes,'' she says excitedly, ``abuse of power, why people would seek power.'' And I ask her a personal question: given that in our society money equals power, and serious money (Harry has made her the highest-earning woman in Britain) equals serious power, how does she want to use that power? ``I've started using it,'' she says, referring to the $1.14 million Cdn she recently gave to an English charity for single parents. ``And fame also can equate with power. So I've started using both where I feel I can make a difference.'' Single parenthood is an issue close to her heart; since the collapse of her marriage in the early `90s, she has raised her daughter Jessica, now seven, alone. ``It's something that cuts across every walk of life and every kind of background -- ethnic, socio-economic. . . let's be frank, it's mostly women who find themselves in that position. And I used to wonder when someone would stand up and tell it like it was: Say `No, actually, we're not all feckless teenagers who didn't know how to use contraception,' -- a view which was very prevalent in the media at the time, partly because we in Britain had a right-wing government that was very fond of scapegoating single parents . . . ``Most of us are people in committed relationships that went wrong. We also have to include all the people who have been bereaved who are tarred with the same very negative brush. The next heir to the throne is a single parent.'' She was reluctant to take on the advocacy task (``in all honesty I'm fighting for writing time right now, and I'm just wanting, number one, to see my daughter'') but she thought, well, ``someone's got to do it, so it's you.'' Although she has the kind of money these days that would allow her to consign her child to all kinds of comfortable care, she looks after her herself, taking her to school each day, though a nanny collects her in the afternoon and looks after her until 5 p.m., ``which gives me a full writing day.'' * Jessica has read all the Potter books, says Rowling, ``and she read the latest all by herself . . . until chapter 30.'' That's when the * book turns dark and violent, and Rowling decided she would read it to her: ``She needed support through that ending. It's the darkest book yet.'' Next in line from the Potter mill is the Harry Potter movie, and (I'm getting wind-up signals now from the publicity folk: I've already stretched the 15 minutes to 20) I ask her a question my 13-year-old nephew Tom e-mailed from England: ``Do you think the new film could ruin children's images of Harry and Hogwarts and make the next books less enjoyable because of the definite image of both characters and the school?'' The answer is a definite no, and at the same time a strong affirmation of her belief in her readers. ``If people have already invented Harry in their imagination, I would be very surprised if the film could disturb that. No film has ever ruined a favourite book for me, ever. It is my belief that my readers will be able to differentiate between the film Harry and real Harry and I think they will be in no doubt about who is the real Harry. People greatly underestimate children.'' She has occasionally come under fire from parents questioning the use of Potter books in classrooms, on the grounds that they are based on (as one South Carolina group of protesters put it) ``a serious tone of death, hate, lack of respect and sheer evil.'' * Rowling's response was one of resignation. ``My feeling about that is that if we're going to ban all the books that mention witches,'' she said, ``we're going to be getting rid of a lot of classics. ``I've met thousands of children now, and I haven't met a single one who's told me that they've developed an interest in witchcraft because of my books ... It's an imaginary world, and I think a very moral world. And the bottom line is, if people don't want to read it, they don't have to read it, you know?'' At Vancouver's Kidsbooks, president Phyllis Simon says only one customer has protested about the books' emphasis on wizardry and magic. ``I thanked her for her opinion and we left it at that. I'm not here to pass judgment on people. We're here to promote literacy and make sure kids have a pleasurable reading experience.'' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 19:45:00 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:45:00 +0000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <01d001c4008b$5f9438a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> References: <200403021659.i22GoDD2016576@...> <01d001c4008b$5f9438a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <4LX9KzE8QORAJwNR@...> In message <01d001c4008b$5f9438a0$4f5ffea9 at cq5hs01>, pennylin writes >Hi -- > >Oh, it's so good to see posts from Catherine, Mike and Steve all in one >day!? > >Steve, below my signature is allegedly the full transcript of the article in >question ...... it comes to you via: Linda McCabe (athena) writing to >Professor Terry Mattingly about his mention of that specific quote in a >syndicated column he writes, and his reply included a cut & paste of the >entire article, which Athena then forwarded to a little H/H debate group I >belong to.? So, it may not be a *perfect* transcription, but one hopes it's >close.? There's no date given.? >I don't know where the John the Baptist reference might have originated.? Thanks for tracking the article down, Penny. I don't think that John the Baptist was ever mentioned in an interview, but I do recall people using the interview to speculate, and one of the theories which came up was a Jesus Christ/John the Baptist, Harry/Neville analogy. Anyway, although I have a superficial knowledge of the bible (including the New Testament), I don't think I have enough to know whether this could be workable. > >Mike, I would be well and truly *fascinated* to read your article.? Can you >let us know how we might get a copy?? :--) Ditto. Mike - I can't believe I haven't asked the same thing! Catherine, who is delighted that we're getting posts on this list again at last From mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 20:48:32 2004 From: mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:48:32 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <01d001c4008b$5f9438a0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458339@...> Penny! It's great to see you online - and thanks for the article! Penny pondered, > Mike, I would be well and truly *fascinated* to read your > article. Can you let us know how we might get a copy? :--) Why sure! Here's the website of the magazine that published it: http://www.ideaschweiz.ch/artikel.php3?artikelid=2082 Now if that's *English* you were wanting it in ... BTW, I only had one page, so it's not like the article is any kind of a magnum opus - though I'm more or less satisfied with what I did, considering the space and readership. If you're really, really curious, I could translate it. (Which certainly wouldn't hurt the article. I'm dead boring in German.) > Re: John Granger. [....] > alchemy --- this was the subject of his talk at Nimbus, and > it got him a standing ovation. I'd be interested to hear > more details about why your eyebrows stretched so skeptically > at the alchemy angle, Mike, since I thought it all made > perfect sense Hmm. I'll have to reread the article. The idea was certainly neat - he was suggesting that one can interpret the macro-structure of the entire HP canon according to a set of alchemic criteria - but my gut reaction as an exegete was to wonder whether he wasn't getting a little overwrought. (Biblical exegetes use the term 'chiasmania' to insult other exegetes who can't seem to open the New Testamenta without finding a chiasm somewhere. Say, the entire gospel of Matthew. After a while you begin to get the suspicion that you can probably wedge almost any text, the phone book included, into almost any formal criterion imaginable, inculding the rhyming scheme of an Elizabethan sonnet - provided you're clever enough, have an excitable disposition and need to get your paper done quickly.) But again: I only skimmed the article. So before I go on insulting someone who sounds like a terrific guy, I'd better shut up, and apologize, and pay closer attention. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 2 22:12:02 2004 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 22:12:02 -0000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458339@...> Message-ID: Hi everyone I don't have anything revealing or informed to add to this thread, especially as my knowledge of the bible is minimal and, I imagine, even more superficial than Catherine's (I've heard of John the Baptist, but have no idea what he did or of his potential significance to HP). I'm glad to see some discussion going on here though! It's interesting that JKR hinted at a biblical parallel rather than a Christian one, the latter of which might involve ideas equally applicable in a non-religious context. Specific reference to something in the bible is more ... er, specific. Okay, well I'm off to Miami this weekend (as usual, my timing is bad) and trying to decide on some books and CDs to take for the journey. Perhaps I should take a bible (ironically, I own four of them!). Neil From keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid Wed Mar 3 01:25:32 2004 From: keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid (Stephanie Keener) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:25:32 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Message-ID: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539AA15B6D@...> Folks -- I'm taking the liberty of forwarding (most) of this thread to a good friend of mine who is a scholar of the New Testament (I mean, he studies the New Testament, he's not of the New Testament) and one one of our faculty here at Lees-McRae, Ken Craig. He is also a Potter fan and I think he'll enjoy the discussion. Not to mention that he might have a few interesting thoughts and I'll certainly share them if I can. Stephanie -----Original Message----- From: Steve Vander Ark [mailto:vderark at ...] Sent: Tue 3/2/2004 11:04 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Cc: Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Okay, here's what I could find quickly. I don't have the full transcript in hand, but someone who has access to the archives of the Vancouver Sun could maybe do us a huge favor and find it. This is from an article in Vancouver Sun: HEADLINE `You can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think': Author has frank words for the religious right BYLINE Max Wyman SOURCE Vancouver Sun Harry, of course, is able to battle supernatural evil with supernatural forces of his own, and Rowling is quite clear that she doesn't personally believe in that kind of magic -- ``not at! all.'' Is she a Christian? ``Yes, I am,'' she says. ``Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.'' Hopefully this will be helpful. Like I said, I don't have the full transcript in hand, and I would like it Steve _____ From: Steve Vander Ark [mailto:vderark at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:41 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Well, I didn't realize that was going to the whole Old Crowd group. Don't ALL of you pester me now. And if one of you has it handy, save me the trouble. All the best Steve _____ From: Steve Vander Ark [mailto:vderark at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:24 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Hi, Catherine: That's a real quote by Rowling. I have it linked somewhere. I can't remember where it's from right off the top of my head. John Granger mentioned it in his book and I wondered about it, so I tracked it down. I'll have to check, but I'm rather in the midst of a hurricane right now. Do me this favor: pester me about it. Seriously. Write me an email every day or so until I get a chance to find it. I don't mind the reminder, really I don't. It's helpful. Steve _____ From: Catherine Coleman [mailto:catherine at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:18 AM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist? Hi everyone, I've been exchanging e-mails with Mike Gray recently, and just happened to mention JKR's alleged quote regarding the fact that anyone who knows their bible has a pretty good idea about how the series is going to end. I've head this mentioned in conjunction with John the Baptist, but I can't remember where - or even, what the theory is. Can anyone elucidate (Richard, maybe?) so I can prove to Mike that I'm not on LSD? Catherine _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Click HereClick Here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid Wed Mar 3 04:04:58 2004 From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 04:04:58 -0000 Subject: John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539AA15B6D@...> Message-ID: Stephanie, quoting The Article:"Harry, of course, is able to battle supernatural evil with supernatural forces of his own, and Rowling is quite clear that she doesn't personally believe in that kind of magic -- ``not at! all.'' Is she a Christian? ``Yes, I am,'' she says. ``Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.'' I wonder if JKR is talking about the sacrifice Harry is likely to make to defeat Voldemort ? to give up his magic or even his life to make LV mortal and save everyone in the wizard world. Harry already has apostles (might we even end up with twelve?), but I can't see a John the Baptist parallel. Jim Ferer From keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid Wed Mar 3 16:28:39 2004 From: keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid (Stephanie Keener) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 11:28:39 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: John the Baptist? Message-ID: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539A51D8DA@...> Me either - I was getting the John the Baptist idea from Catherine, who, turn, got it from somewhere else. Stephanie -----Original Message----- From: Jim Ferer [mailto:jferer at ...] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 11:05 PM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: John the Baptist? Stephanie, quoting The Article:"Harry, of course, is able to battle supernatural evil with supernatural forces of his own, and Rowling is quite clear that she doesn't personally believe in that kind of magic -- ``not at! all.'' Is she a Christian? ``Yes, I am,'' she says. ``Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.'' I wonder if JKR is talking about the sacrifice Harry is likely to make to defeat Voldemort - to give up his magic or even his life to make LV mortal and save everyone in the wizard world. Harry already has apostles (might we even end up with twelve?), but I can't see a John the Baptist parallel. Jim Ferer _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid Wed Mar 3 17:49:41 2004 From: mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:49:41 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF2524501B5F4@...> Message-ID: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF25245833A@...> Jim Ferrer (huh! - Jim Ferrer?! - wow!) wrote, > I wonder if JKR is talking about the sacrifice Harry is > likely to make to defeat Voldemort - to give up his magic or > even his life to make LV mortal and save everyone in the > wizard world. Harry already has apostles (might we even end > up with twelve?), but I can't see a John the Baptist parallel. You know, if we go back to the statement itself, we don't really have much to work with. Here's the quote again: > Every time I've been asked if I believe > in God, I've said yes, because I do, but > no one ever really has gone any more deeply > into it than that, and I have to say that > does suit me, because if I talk too freely > about that I think the intelligent reader, > whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess > what's coming in the books.'' I would add a second, very similar quote (out of an interview with Evan Solomon - another Canadian - shortly previous to this one): > E: You do believe in God. > > JK: Yeah. Yeah. > > E: In magic and... > > JK: Magic in the sense in which it happens > in my books, no, I don't believe. I don't > believe in that. No. No. This is so frustrating. > Again, there is so much I would like to say, > and come back when I've written book seven. > But then maybe you won't need to even say it > 'cause you'll have found it out anyway. You'll > have read it. Both quotes indicate that her beliefs about God - and, specifically, the Christian character of said beliefs - have a pivotal role in the way she has plotted out the series' conclusion. However: she doesn't actually mention the Bible in either of these quotes. If she did, it would make sense to look ways of fitting the HP stories into the narrative grid of one of the biblical stories. (Of course, there are several thousand stories in the Bible - right the way from J. the B., back to Adam and Eve, up to Noah's Ark, out to The Book of Revelations - or even the Story of Balaam's talking donkey, for good measure.) Anyway, she doesn't even give us that much. She just tells us that there's an essential link to some aspect of Christian theology, tradition or narrative. Which makes looking for a needle in a haystack sound easy - at least you know what you're looking for ... But not all is lost. We do have two clues: (1) It must be some aspect of Christianity that she *finds important.* (Hence, St. Paul's prohibition of women in church leadership probably isn't quite what we're looking for ... ) This suggests an investigative question: what are the essential aspects of Rowling's reception of Christian belief? (2) This aspect of Christianity must be applicable to metaphysics - i.e. the ultimate source, rationale, essence or fate - of magic in the Potterverse. Hence, Investigative Question #2: What aspects of Rowling's reception of Christian belief are particularly applicable to the metaphysics of magic in the Potterverse? Of course, since she's extremly coy about said mataphysics, we haven't really made much progress here. Oh well. Still, you need *something* to think about on rainy afternoons when you've having trouble writing your sermon ... Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Wed Mar 3 20:57:34 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:57:34 -0600 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: John the Baptist? References: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF25245833A@...> Message-ID: <033901c40162$2744f570$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi all -- Re: John the Baptist ------> I'm wondering if this reference has come up in discussions because of the fact that he was allegedly beheaded. Athena has a fairly extensive theory worked out that Harry won't just die in the end, but will be beheaded in fact. I'm not certain if she ever posted her thoughts in writing on any of the debate threads at FAP or not, but I'll ask her. In short, she thinks that if you read through carefully the books are all just chock-full of beheading references (Nearly Headless Nick, Harry's rubber haddock being beheaded by Ron's tin parrot in GoF, Harry predicting his own death by decapitation, etc.). Also of note of course is that JKR has said that she cries everytime she reads "A Tale of Two Cities," and thinks it has the best last line of a book ever. Of course, I think I'll go into permanent mourning should that happen ........ Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Wed Mar 3 21:32:21 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:32:21 +0000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: John the Baptist? In-Reply-To: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF25245833A@...> References: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF2524501B5F4@...> <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF25245833A@...> Message-ID: In message <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF25245833A at ...>, Aberforth's Goat writes >Anyway, she doesn't even give us that much. She just tells us that >there's an essential link to some aspect of Christian theology, >tradition or narrative. Which makes looking for a needle in a haystack >sound easy - at least you know what you're looking for ... > >But not all is lost. We do have two clues: > >(1) It must be some aspect of Christianity that she *finds important.* >(Hence, St. Paul's prohibition of women in church leadership probably >isn't quite what we're looking for ... ) This suggests an investigative >question: what are the essential aspects of Rowling's reception of >Christian belief? Well, leaving aside my non-existent John the Baptist theory, I have one other suggestion. I've been reading Francis Bridger's book this week, and one of the Christian tenets he seems to think that JKR believes passionately in is that of self-sacrifice and completely unselfish love. We see it as a theme right through the books - James and Lily's sacrifice for Harry, Sirius' cri de coeur to Wormtail about how he (Wormtail) should have died rather than betray his friends - sacrificed himself in the way the other Marauders would have done for him. Harry himself has put himself in danger countless times for others, showing that he is prepared to face death (the ultimate sacrifice) for what he believes in and for the people he loves. I'm sure there are other examples - it could probably be extended to include anyone who puts themselves on the line for anyone else, which all members of the Trio do, as do many other characters - even McGonagall, when defending Hagrid in OoP (after all, she almost died). So if this has any bearing at all on the outcome of the series, does it mean that Harry will die - sacrifice himself for everyone else? If this is the case, and parallels are to be drawn between Jesus Christ and Harry, I can see flaws in the theory. For example, we know that JKR has always said that when you are dead, you are dead - so no resurrection, I presume. Anyway, as you can probably gather, I'm not very well-versed in any of this, but I do think the idea is worth exploring (and elucidating on by people who know much more about it than I do). Thoughts? Catherine From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Thu Mar 4 11:10:02 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:10:02 +0000 Subject: World Book day chat Message-ID: Hi all, I just want to be the first to commiserate with Pippin, and to offer congratulations to Amanda. JKR has now confirmed that there isn't a link between Snape and vampires. Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so. Catherine From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid Thu Mar 4 14:10:14 2004 From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 14:10:14 -0000 Subject: Sending Hogwarts letters to Muggles Message-ID: This question was the question from the chat that jumped out at me: ======================================================= HPFreak7: How are muggle parents convinced to let their kids go to Hogwarts, a strange place they never heard of before; and wouldn't they think it was a practical joke? JK Rowling replies -> In the case of Muggle parents, special messengers are sent to explain everything to them. But don't forget that they will have noticed that there's something strange about their child for the previous ten years, so it won't come as a complete bolt from the blue. ======================================================= It supports one of my favorite guesses about how the wizard world works. I also note JKR is as deliberately vague about potential romantic pairings as ever. From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 7 02:18:32 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 18:18:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: John the Baptist connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040307021832.62849.qmail@...> I have been reading several comments today about Harry Potter and John the Baptist connections. I just finished "The Davinci Code" by Dan Brown that is a suspense murder mystery regarding artworks of Leonardo Davinci and his involvement with the Priory of Sion. Davinci was actually a Grand Master (Leader) of the Priory of Sion. In my subsequent internet search about the Priory of Sion, I stumbled across this reference to Nicholas Flamel who was a Grand Master of the Priory of Sion. If you read the text below, you see allusions to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone. You might want to read the Davinci Code to learn more!! "It has been alleged that Hughes de Payens, first Grand Master of the Knights Templar, had been inducted into the Johannites, a sect which chose John the Baptist as their prophet. According to the dossiers secrets, each of the alleged Grand Masters of the Prieure de Sion took the name Jean in succession (supposedly influencing the name chosen by Pope John XXIII). One of the Grand Masters on the list, Leonardo da Vinci, displayed a strong interest in John the Baptist. Another, Sir Isaac Newton, became preoccupied with the writings of the Apocalypse, then attributed to John the Evangelist. According to the dossiers secrets, the following individuals were amongst the Grand Masters: Nicholas Flamel (1330-1418) the most famous of the alchemists said, "the Paris notary Nicolas Flamel claimed that he dreamed of an occult book, subsequently found it, and succeeded in deciphering it with the aid of a Jewish scholar learned in the mystic Hebrew writings known as the Kabbala. In 1382 Flamel claimed to have succeeded in the 'Great Work' (gold making); certainly he became rich and made donations to churches. One alchemical symbol that is widely acknowledged by modern scholars is that of an old bearded man, the back of whose head shows a young woman looking into a mirror. A statue with this image graces the exterior of Nantes cathedral, as does a bearded king with the body of a woman, in the porch at Chartres that depicts the Queen of Sheba. The hermaphrodite is a pure alchemical symbol, representing the perfect balance achieved in the Great Work, and the perfect being, in which the alchemist himself is transformed and transmuted spiritually - and, as many believe, physically as well. It was a 'consummation devoutly to be wished' and had little, if anything, to do with sexuality as we understand it today. The Great Work was an explosion of the potential into the actual, where they mystical quest takes on concrete form. As the alchemists said, 'as above, so below' - this process was believed to make spirit into matter and transmute one sort of matter into another. It made a man into a god. Revered by men like Newton, Flamel was the discoverer of The Sacred Book of Abraham the Jew, Prince, Priest, Levite, Astrologer and Philosopher to that Tribe of Jews who by the Wrath of God were Dispersed amongst the Gauls which became one of the most famous works in Western esoteric tradition. " I think reading "The Davinci Code" or learning more about the Priory of Sion and its secret society may unleash alot of ideas about the Harry's mother being in the back of Harry's head and Voldemort being in the back of Professor Quirrell's head. The idea of the Male/Female union is more powerful than Voldemort. You could stay up for weeks reading all of this stuff. Randy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 7 15:15:49 2004 From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 07:15:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist connection In-Reply-To: <20040307021832.62849.qmail@...> Message-ID: <20040307151549.87325.qmail@...> Interesting theory, Randy! I had no idea that Nicolas Flamel was a real person - I thought he was a creation of JKR's imagination! One thing (OT) I must point out, however - The DaVinci Code is a work of historical fiction, not nonfiction. I'm Catholic, and I've had a lot of people tell me, "I read the DaVinci Code and I can't BELIEVE all the stuff the Catholic Church has kept hidden!" When I point out that the book is a work of historical fiction, they usually look surprised and puzzled. So I just thought I'd send a friendly reminder to do research into the things mentioned in TDC (like you have, Randy, thank you!) instead of taking book as fact. :) --- Randy Estes wrote: > > I have been reading several comments today about Harry > Potter and John the Baptist connections. > > I just finished "The Davinci Code" by Dan Brown that > is a suspense murder mystery regarding artworks of > Leonardo Davinci and his involvement with the Priory > of Sion. Davinci was actually a Grand Master (Leader) > of the Priory of Sion. In my subsequent internet > search about the Priory of Sion, I stumbled across > this reference to Nicholas Flamel who was a Grand > Master of the Priory of Sion. If you read the text > below, you see allusions to Harry Potter and the > Sorcerer's stone. You might want to read the Davinci > Code to learn more!! > > "It has been alleged that Hughes de Payens, first > Grand Master of the Knights Templar, had been inducted > into the Johannites, a sect which chose John the > Baptist as their prophet. According to the dossiers > secrets, each of the alleged Grand Masters of the > Prieure de Sion took the name Jean in succession > (supposedly influencing the name chosen by Pope John > XXIII). One of the Grand Masters on the list, Leonardo > da Vinci, displayed a strong interest in John the > Baptist. Another, Sir Isaac Newton, became preoccupied > with the writings of the Apocalypse, then attributed > to John the Evangelist. > > According to the dossiers secrets, the following > individuals were amongst the Grand Masters: > > > Nicholas Flamel (1330-1418) the most famous of the > alchemists said, "the Paris notary Nicolas Flamel > claimed that he dreamed of an occult book, > subsequently found it, and succeeded in deciphering it > with the aid of a Jewish scholar learned in the mystic > Hebrew writings known as the Kabbala. In 1382 Flamel > claimed to have succeeded in the 'Great Work' (gold > making); certainly he became rich and made donations > to churches. > > One alchemical symbol that is widely acknowledged by > modern scholars is that of an old bearded man, the > back of whose head shows a young woman looking into a > mirror. A statue with this image graces the exterior > of Nantes cathedral, as does a bearded king with the > body of a woman, in the porch at Chartres that depicts > the Queen of Sheba. > > The hermaphrodite is a pure alchemical symbol, > representing the perfect balance achieved in the Great > Work, and the perfect being, in which the alchemist > himself is transformed and transmuted spiritually - > and, as many believe, physically as well. It was a > 'consummation devoutly to be wished' and had little, > if anything, to do with sexuality as we understand it > today. > > The Great Work was an explosion of the potential into > the actual, where they mystical quest takes on > concrete form. As the alchemists said, 'as above, so > below' - this process was believed to make spirit into > matter and transmute one sort of matter into another. > It made a man into a god. > > Revered by men like Newton, Flamel was the discoverer > of The Sacred Book of Abraham the Jew, Prince, Priest, > Levite, Astrologer and Philosopher to that Tribe of > Jews who by the Wrath of God were Dispersed amongst > the Gauls which became one of the most famous works in > Western esoteric tradition. " > > I think reading "The Davinci Code" or learning more > about the Priory of Sion and its secret society may > unleash alot of ideas about the Harry's mother being > in the back of Harry's head and Voldemort being in the > back of Professor Quirrell's head. The idea of the > Male/Female union is more powerful than Voldemort. > > You could stay up for weeks reading all of this stuff. > > Randy > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster > http://search.yahoo.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ===== ~JoAnna~ http://pt4ever.diaryland.com "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." - Douglas Adams, "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 7 19:18:54 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:18:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] John the Baptist connection In-Reply-To: <20040307151549.87325.qmail@...> Message-ID: <20040307191854.35614.qmail@...> I also thought that Nicholas Flamel was made up by JKR until last night! That is what really surprised me the most. But the connection to the Davinci Code is only important because of the idea of secret societies that require people to perform tasks and use their wits to become worthy of learning the secrets! This concept fits Harry Potter so well!!!!! Just look at the Philosopher's Stone ending and the tasks that must be performed to become worthy of obtaining the Philosopher's stone. If you read about Nicholas Flamel, you will see find his belief that making things into gold was only useful if you used the gold for good purposes other than gaining personal wealth and fame. This implies that Voldemort could never obtain the stone from the mirror since his purpose was all wrong. But Harry Potter could obtain the stone from the mirror because he intended to use it for the right purposes! One of Flamel's strongly held beliefs was that "the love of money" and power is the path to destruction. Biblical text put into practice. The other theme that I saw was the concept of putting ideas into action. Davinci and Isaac Newton who were also Grand Masters obviously took action on their ideas and created great things. I think Harry Potter puts beliefs and ideas into action in every book. He is obviously still an apprentice, but will become more worthy as his adventures continue. The references to Nicholas Flamel lead me to believe that JKR has a good heart and wants to instruct young minds to do the right things. You might say that she has followed the creed of Flamel and pursued her dream and not chased after money. While doing this the money comes to you. This is the ancient theme of the story of the Philosopher's stone. I am encouraged by reading about the story of Nicholas Flamel and look forward to future JKR books. Randy --- JoAnna Wahlund wrote: > Interesting theory, Randy! I had no idea that > Nicolas Flamel was a real person - I > thought he was a creation of JKR's imagination! > > One thing (OT) I must point out, however - The > DaVinci Code is a work of historical > fiction, not nonfiction. I'm Catholic, and I've had > a lot of people tell me, "I read the > DaVinci Code and I can't BELIEVE all the stuff the > Catholic Church has kept hidden!" > When I point out that the book is a work of > historical fiction, they usually look > surprised and puzzled. So I just thought I'd send a > friendly reminder to do research > into the things mentioned in TDC (like you have, > Randy, thank you!) instead of taking > book as fact. :) > > --- Randy Estes wrote: > > > > I have been reading several comments today about > Harry > > Potter and John the Baptist connections. > > > > I just finished "The Davinci Code" by Dan Brown > that > > is a suspense murder mystery regarding artworks of > > Leonardo Davinci and his involvement with the > Priory > > of Sion. Davinci was actually a Grand Master > (Leader) > > of the Priory of Sion. In my subsequent internet > > search about the Priory of Sion, I stumbled across > > this reference to Nicholas Flamel who was a Grand > > Master of the Priory of Sion. If you read the > text > > below, you see allusions to Harry Potter and the > > Sorcerer's stone. You might want to read the > Davinci > > Code to learn more!! > > > > "It has been alleged that Hughes de Payens, first > > Grand Master of the Knights Templar, had been > inducted > > into the Johannites, a sect which chose John the > > Baptist as their prophet. According to the > dossiers > > secrets, each of the alleged Grand Masters of the > > Prieure de Sion took the name Jean in succession > > (supposedly influencing the name chosen by Pope > John > > XXIII). One of the Grand Masters on the list, > Leonardo > > da Vinci, displayed a strong interest in John the > > Baptist. Another, Sir Isaac Newton, became > preoccupied > > with the writings of the Apocalypse, then > attributed > > to John the Evangelist. > > > > According to the dossiers secrets, the following > > individuals were amongst the Grand Masters: > > > > > > Nicholas Flamel (1330-1418) the most famous of the > > alchemists said, "the Paris notary Nicolas Flamel > > claimed that he dreamed of an occult book, > > subsequently found it, and succeeded in > deciphering it > > with the aid of a Jewish scholar learned in the > mystic > > Hebrew writings known as the Kabbala. In 1382 > Flamel > > claimed to have succeeded in the 'Great Work' > (gold > > making); certainly he became rich and made > donations > > to churches. > > > > One alchemical symbol that is widely acknowledged > by > > modern scholars is that of an old bearded man, the > > back of whose head shows a young woman looking > into a > > mirror. A statue with this image graces the > exterior > > of Nantes cathedral, as does a bearded king with > the > > body of a woman, in the porch at Chartres that > depicts > > the Queen of Sheba. > > > > The hermaphrodite is a pure alchemical symbol, > > representing the perfect balance achieved in the > Great > > Work, and the perfect being, in which the > alchemist > > himself is transformed and transmuted spiritually > - > > and, as many believe, physically as well. It was a > > 'consummation devoutly to be wished' and had > little, > > if anything, to do with sexuality as we understand > it > > today. > > > > The Great Work was an explosion of the potential > into > > the actual, where they mystical quest takes on > > concrete form. As the alchemists said, 'as above, > so > > below' - this process was believed to make spirit > into > > matter and transmute one sort of matter into > another. > > It made a man into a god. > > > > Revered by men like Newton, Flamel was the > discoverer > > of The Sacred Book of Abraham the Jew, Prince, > Priest, > > Levite, Astrologer and Philosopher to that Tribe > of > > Jews who by the Wrath of God were Dispersed > amongst > > the Gauls which became one of the most famous > works in > > Western esoteric tradition. " > > > > I think reading "The Davinci Code" or learning > more > > about the Priory of Sion and its secret society > may > > unleash alot of ideas about the Harry's mother > being > > in the back of Harry's head and Voldemort being in > the > > back of Professor Quirrell's head. The idea of > the > > Male/Female union is more powerful than Voldemort. > > > > You could stay up for weeks reading all of this > stuff. > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for > faster > > http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > ~JoAnna~ > http://pt4ever.diaryland.com > > "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made > President should on no account be allowed to do the > job." > > - Douglas Adams, "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster > http://search.yahoo.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 7 22:22:40 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:22:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ending of Philosopher's Stone (Symbols) In-Reply-To: <20040307151549.87325.qmail@...> Message-ID: <20040307222240.6256.qmail@...> As I think about the story of Nicholas Flamel and the Priory of Sion, I cannot help but rethink the 7 tasks in the ending of the Philosopher's stone. Task One Three Headed Dog over a trap Door. Perhaps the Dogma of the Church (3 heads implies the Trinity). The Church guards an entrance which they say is a trap! Music calms the Beast (implying the Arts provide a method of dealing with this...ie Davinci,Boticelli...etc..) Task Two Devil's Snare (Vine that ensnares you) Reference to Devil makes me think of "Idle minds, Devil's Work". If you don't take action on your beliefs you become lazy and "ensnared by this laziness". Perhaps your past thought patterns ensnare you. Ron had to remind Hermione that she was a witch so she could take action and "light a fire!" Task Three Flying Keys Looking for the key to unlock a mystery. I think of the keystone that the characters were looking for in the Davinci Code. The bright Blue key with the broken wing was the correct one. I don't know about the symbolism here. Any ideas? Task Four Chessboard (Black and White) The Battle between Good and Evil comes to mind. Also the Yin/Yang symbol of White and Black seems related. There is the idea of Darkness and Light doing battle. Ron took the role of the Black Knight. I think this alludes to the Knights who searched for the Holy Grail (the Truth). The Priory of Sion is connected to the Knights Templar who searched for the Holy Grail. Harry is the Bishop and Hermione is the Castle. I think there is hidden meaning there too. Ron says to Harry before he is attacked by the White Queen "You've got to make some sacrifices!" This sure sounds like the Knights who defended the path of the Crusaders to me. Task Five Unconscious Troll I think this represents a Sleeping Giant that must not be awakened by there search. We must not let the enemy know our secrets. Also Book 5 was about the Order of the Phoenix which is a secret society like the Priory of Sion which has secrets to keep. The family line on the tapestry in this book does imply secrets about the lineage of the Black Family. The reference to Black family seems to resemble the Black Knight analogy of Ron in Task #4. There is a Black Queen or something like that in the Nicholas Flamel secret society story. Task Six Seven Potions There is significance to the number 7 here. I don't know the details yet. The purple fire also has symbolism. The idea of choice comes to mind. You must make the right choice to proceed further. There is something about twins that look different. A dwarf and a giant. I think about the Yin/Yang concept of the small piece of black inside the white side and the small piece of white inside the black side of the Yin/Yang symbol. The correct potion feels like ice inside Harry as he walks through the fire. Fire and Ice are obvious symbols. Task Seven Mirror Of Erised (Desire) The story of Nicholas Flamel and the Philosopher's stone speaks to the creation of the stone and turning items into gold. The gold is only to be used for good. Only the worthy can attain the stone. The symbol of a bearded man with a young woman in the back of his head holding a mirror. The idea of Voldemort in the back of Quirrell's head could represent the Church's dogma that women cannot be priests. The combination of the male and female is the highest attainment in the Alchemists spirituality. Harry has his mother inside his head which makes him more powerful than Voldemort and more worthy to obtain the Philosopher's stone. I am positive that JKR knows the story of the Priory of Sion and the Knights Templar and the quest for the Sacred Feminine. This story is related to Harry Potter since Nicholas Flamel is connected to both. Task Seven --- JoAnna Wahlund wrote: > Interesting theory, Randy! I had no idea that > Nicolas Flamel was a real person - I > thought he was a creation of JKR's imagination! > > One thing (OT) I must point out, however - The > DaVinci Code is a work of historical > fiction, not nonfiction. I'm Catholic, and I've had > a lot of people tell me, "I read the > DaVinci Code and I can't BELIEVE all the stuff the > Catholic Church has kept hidden!" > When I point out that the book is a work of > historical fiction, they usually look > surprised and puzzled. So I just thought I'd send a > friendly reminder to do research > into the things mentioned in TDC (like you have, > Randy, thank you!) instead of taking > book as fact. :) > > --- Randy Estes wrote: > > > > I have been reading several comments today about > Harry > > Potter and John the Baptist connections. > > > > I just finished "The Davinci Code" by Dan Brown > that > > is a suspense murder mystery regarding artworks of > > Leonardo Davinci and his involvement with the > Priory > > of Sion. Davinci was actually a Grand Master > (Leader) > > of the Priory of Sion. In my subsequent internet > > search about the Priory of Sion, I stumbled across > > this reference to Nicholas Flamel who was a Grand > > Master of the Priory of Sion. If you read the > text > > below, you see allusions to Harry Potter and the > > Sorcerer's stone. You might want to read the > Davinci > > Code to learn more!! > > > > "It has been alleged that Hughes de Payens, first > > Grand Master of the Knights Templar, had been > inducted > > into the Johannites, a sect which chose John the > > Baptist as their prophet. According to the > dossiers > > secrets, each of the alleged Grand Masters of the > > Prieure de Sion took the name Jean in succession > > (supposedly influencing the name chosen by Pope > John > > XXIII). One of the Grand Masters on the list, > Leonardo > > da Vinci, displayed a strong interest in John the > > Baptist. Another, Sir Isaac Newton, became > preoccupied > > with the writings of the Apocalypse, then > attributed > > to John the Evangelist. > > > > According to the dossiers secrets, the following > > individuals were amongst the Grand Masters: > > > > > > Nicholas Flamel (1330-1418) the most famous of the > > alchemists said, "the Paris notary Nicolas Flamel > > claimed that he dreamed of an occult book, > > subsequently found it, and succeeded in > deciphering it > > with the aid of a Jewish scholar learned in the > mystic > > Hebrew writings known as the Kabbala. In 1382 > Flamel > > claimed to have succeeded in the 'Great Work' > (gold > > making); certainly he became rich and made > donations > > to churches. > > > > One alchemical symbol that is widely acknowledged > by > > modern scholars is that of an old bearded man, the > > back of whose head shows a young woman looking > into a > > mirror. A statue with this image graces the > exterior > > of Nantes cathedral, as does a bearded king with > the > > body of a woman, in the porch at Chartres that > depicts > > the Queen of Sheba. > > > > The hermaphrodite is a pure alchemical symbol, > > representing the perfect balance achieved in the > Great > > Work, and the perfect being, in which the > alchemist > > himself is transformed and transmuted spiritually > - > > and, as many believe, physically as well. It was a > > 'consummation devoutly to be wished' and had > little, > > if anything, to do with sexuality as we understand > it > > today. > > > > The Great Work was an explosion of the potential > into > > the actual, where they mystical quest takes on > > concrete form. As the alchemists said, 'as above, > so > > below' - this process was believed to make spirit > into > > matter and transmute one sort of matter into > another. > > It made a man into a god. > > > > Revered by men like Newton, Flamel was the > discoverer > > of The Sacred Book of Abraham the Jew, Prince, > Priest, > > Levite, Astrologer and Philosopher to that Tribe > of > > Jews who by the Wrath of God were Dispersed > amongst > > the Gauls which became one of the most famous > works in > > Western esoteric tradition. " > > > > I think reading "The Davinci Code" or learning > more > > about the Priory of Sion and its secret society > may > > unleash alot of ideas about the Harry's mother > being > > in the back of Harry's head and Voldemort being in > the > > back of Professor Quirrell's head. The idea of > the > > Male/Female union is more powerful than Voldemort. > > > > You could stay up for weeks reading all of this > stuff. > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for > faster > > http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > ~JoAnna~ > http://pt4ever.diaryland.com > > "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made > President should on no account be allowed to do the > job." > > - Douglas Adams, "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster > http://search.yahoo.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid Thu Mar 11 20:38:53 2004 From: mike at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:38:53 +0100 Subject: Good vibes welcome ... In-Reply-To: <20040307222240.6256.qmail@...> Message-ID: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458345@...> Hi guys! I just thought I'd mention that I'm going through a pretty rough patch just now. Things aren't looking too great with my church board, and I'm angling at getting out of the job by August. Hopefully, I'll be able to start at the U of Z?rich then too - and find a few jobs to keep the family ship above water. Not feeling good about the church either. I'm sorry to give up working for a bunch of people I've spent the last five years ittitating, enjoying, serving, loving, bitching about and even loving. For those of you who are interested in theological stuff, here's a bit of a write up I did for a theological site. There's some HP involved, but it was meant for the theologican crowd: http://www.opensourcetheology.net/ I presented the paper in question to my board - but it just didn't seem to get through. Most hopeful response: "Well, I think we all still accept you." I've been barking up this tree for 2 years now; it's time to move on. Siiiiiigh! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Thu Mar 11 22:45:54 2004 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:45:54 -0000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Good vibes welcome ... In-Reply-To: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458345@...> Message-ID: Hi Mike, I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles with your church board. I don't understand how any religious institution survives if it fails to stay abreast of developments in society, including understanding and embracing the popular culture of the day. Surely anything that stimulates thought on theological issues is valuable in getting people to understand their lives and hone their beliefs? The following link, from The Guardian, relates to The Archbishop of Canterbury's recent enthusiastic defence of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials", for which he's been criticised. I imagine you've seen it, but thought I'd post it anyway, in case you haven't and it's of some use: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1166054,00.html This is a shorter version of the article - I recall seeing a longer one in the printed paper, but didn't keep it, unfortunately. Neil, sending good vibes -----Original Message----- From: Aberforth's Goat [mailto:mike at ...] Sent: 11 March 2004 20:39 To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: [the_old_crowd] Good vibes welcome ... Hi guys! I just thought I'd mention that I'm going through a pretty rough patch just now. Things aren't looking too great with my church board, and I'm angling at getting out of the job by August. Hopefully, I'll be able to start at the U of Zrich then too - and find a few jobs to keep the family ship above water. Not feeling good about the church either. I'm sorry to give up working for a bunch of people I've spent the last five years ittitating, enjoying, serving, loving, bitching about and even loving. For those of you who are interested in theological stuff, here's a bit of a write up I did for a theological site. There's some HP involved, but it was meant for the theologican crowd: http://www.opensourcetheology.net/ I presented the paper in question to my board - but it just didn't seem to get through. Most hopeful response: "Well, I think we all still accept you." I've been barking up this tree for 2 years now; it's time to move on. Siiiiiigh! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." Yahoo! Groups Links From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid Fri Mar 12 19:03:00 2004 From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:03:00 -0000 Subject: Good vibes welcome ... In-Reply-To: <209B8A03E1FFCC40A577E6FF0DF252458345@...> Message-ID: Mike, Sorry you're going through this now. Good vibes to you always. Although HP is a phenomenon of pop culture, it does have many connections to the eternal, to values and qualities that are always true and will always be true, and that's the essence of the series that I try to get across to people I discuss the series with. It's been a long time since a novel, or series of novels, especially ones targeted at least partly at younger readers, was so much about love for others, from the sacrifice of a mother to the bond of friends and comrades. Christian values fill the series from beginning to end. From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 14 05:03:53 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:03:53 -0000 Subject: (Symbols) In-Reply-To: <20040307222240.6256.qmail@...> Message-ID: I am kept away from my m-lists for a measley three weeks (my job consumed more time than usual) and all this activity took place! --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes wrote: > As I think about the story of Nicholas Flamel and the > Priory of Sion, I cannot help but rethink the 7 tasks > in the ending of the Philosopher's stone. (snip) > I am positive that JKR knows the story of the Priory > of Sion and the Knights Templar and the quest for the > Sacred Feminine. This story is related to Harry > Potter since Nicholas Flamel is connected to both. You missed the posts on the main list connecting HP to 'The Alchymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz", which I think would interest you. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70310 This one lists the similarities between each of the seven days of the Alchymical Wedding to each of the seven years of HP, including the end of the first day: << CRC is presented with seven `challenges'; six inside the dungeon, and one at the entrance above it, and during the final challenge inside the dungeon receives a wound to the head from the stone, but is rescued by his mentor, a wise old man >> << The seven HP challenges: Fluffy (entrance above the dungeon); the Devil's Snare; the Keys; the Chess Game; the Troll; the Potions; the Mirror (inside the dungeon) >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70287 << In post 56254 I compared HP to the "Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosencreutz", published in 1616. William Truderung was kind enough to reply in great detail and he gave a website where the AW can be read in modern English. That was before OOP. I've only just begun to recover from the impact of OOP and so it's very early to dig deeply into the symbolism of it all. However I've just woken up to an extremely striking parallel between HP and the AW which gave me quite a shock which was at the same time a thrill of breathtaking possibilities. In year 5 Harry comes across a room that is always locked. He is told that this room contains "a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." This force is never named, but it is obvious to us that this is love. On day 5 Christian Rosencreutz comes across a room that is always locked. He is told that this room contains the sleeping "Lady Venus". Sound familiar? You don't have to have an IQ of 200 to work out what Venus symbolizes. >> Another post from "Mongo" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/65101 Ivan Vablatsky (Hans in Holland): "see my previous posts, incl. 55907, 56071, 56254, 56477, 67775, 68623, 69086, 70287, 70318, 70963, 71831, 72782, 73252, etc." From pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 14 17:29:37 2004 From: pt4ever at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: book six and book two Message-ID: <20040314172937.64118.qmail@...> Hi all, This'll be quick because I have to dash off two work, but I had a revelation last night. We've all heard the rumor (and it's been confirmed by JKR, I believe) that "Something very small in book two becomes very important in book six." I was re-reading CoS last night, and I think I've found it. At the very end of the book, Dobby says to Harry, "Was giving you a clue, sir. The Dark Lord, before he chose his name, could be freely named, you see?" (I'm quoting from memory here and don't have the book handy, but that's the gist.) Harry shrugs this off because he doesn't know what Dobby means. But, as WE know, these little things often turn into big important plot points. Thoughts? What could Dobby mean? (Apologies if this has been brought up before or discussed to death already.) Have a good day, everyone! ===== ~JoAnna~ http://pt4ever.diaryland.com "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." - Douglas Adams, "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 14 21:10:57 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:10:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: (Symbols) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040314211057.73331.qmail@...> Hello everyone, I realize that I have not read all of the fantastic emails by the thousands of posters on HP for Grown Ups and such. However, the story of the Alchemy Wedding is actually a story that is drawing parallels to another story. The Woman in the glass case is also Snow White and Sleeping Beauty awaiting loves first kiss. Venus is her name as well. She represents the Divine Feminine. There is also quite a history of people who believe that all of these represent Mary Magdalene. The bride who was locked away by the Church. She was called a prostitute, but evidence exists that she was actually the daughter of a wealthy family and essentially of royal jewish blood. The realization of this bride (the Divine Feminine) is the secret that the Knights Templar, The Priory of Sion, and such have been guarding. The reason that they have to guard the secret is that the Roman Catholic church called anyone who believed in the Divine Feminine a Heretic who must be put to death! The idea of Witches came about as people who worshiped a Divine Feminine who must be burned at the stake. The people who believed in Jesus as the husband and Mary Magdalene as the wife were not acceptable to the Church. The Priory of Sion (Nicholas Flamel belonged to it) supposedly guarded the secret documents that showed that Mary was the bride of Jesus. The symbol for the feminine side was the V and the symbol for the male side was the ^. The V is the symbol of Venus and the ^ is the symbol of Mars. The V was also called "the Chalice" which is the Holy Grail that the Knights were searching for. The Chalice is not really a cup from the last Supper. It is the vessel that contained the blood of Jesus (his lineage). That means that Mary Magdalene is the mother of his children. It is believed that her body was moved around with the secret documents. The woman in the coffin is Mary. An understanding of Mary as his bride is an understanding of the importance of male and female in unity. Also Yin and Yang contains this concept because the black and white are united and each contains a piece of the other inside. Whether or not you wish to believe the story to be true, the fact is that many people have died over the centuries to protect and defend this belief. They are considered pagans, heretics, witches, etc......I believe HP is about witches, is it not? The source of many tales over the centuries is this concept of uniting the male and female together again. Loves first kiss for Snow White and Sleeping Beauty. The symbols are so numerous it is too difficult to go through them all. The one that made me think was the women in the back of the bearded man's head looking at a mirror. This is from the Alchemist's stories. The ending of Harry Potter is obviously there. I don't know all these stories of spiritual awakening, but I do know that famous artist's throughout the centuries have been painting and writing songs about the Divine Feminine. That who the Troubadours sang about. That is the woman that the Knights pledged their allegiance to. I think it interesting that the United States founding fathers often refer to Lady Liberty! I will try to read up on the "Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosencreutz" However, I find it interesting that the Rose is the symbol of the Divine Feminine (ie. Mary M., Venus)for the Christians who believed in Mary M. Christian Rosencreutz is a very interesting name indeed!!!! --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > I am kept away from my m-lists for a measley three > weeks (my job > consumed more time than usual) and all this activity > took place! > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes > wrote: > > As I think about the story of Nicholas Flamel and > the > > Priory of Sion, I cannot help but rethink the 7 > tasks > > in the ending of the Philosopher's stone. > > (snip) > > > I am positive that JKR knows the story of the > Priory > > of Sion and the Knights Templar and the quest for > the > > Sacred Feminine. This story is related to Harry > > Potter since Nicholas Flamel is connected to both. > > You missed the posts on the main list connecting HP > to 'The Alchymical > Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz", which I think > would interest you. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70310 > This one lists the similarities between each of the > seven days of the > Alchymical Wedding to each of the seven years of HP, > including the end > of the first day: > << CRC is presented with seven `challenges'; six > inside the dungeon, > and one at the entrance above it, and during the > final challenge > inside the dungeon receives a wound to the head from > the stone, but > is rescued by his mentor, a wise old man >> > << The seven HP challenges: Fluffy (entrance above > the dungeon); the > Devil's Snare; the Keys; the Chess Game; the Troll; > the Potions; the > Mirror (inside the dungeon) >> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70287 > << In post 56254 I compared HP to the "Alchemical > Wedding of Christian > Rosencreutz", published in 1616. William Truderung > was kind enough to > reply in great detail and he gave a website where > the AW can be read > in modern English. > > That was before OOP. I've only just begun to recover > from the impact > of OOP and so it's very early to dig deeply into the > symbolism of it > all. However I've just woken up to an extremely > striking parallel > between HP and the AW which gave me quite a shock > which was at the > same time a thrill of breathtaking possibilities. > > In year 5 Harry comes across a room that is always > locked. He is told > that this room contains "a force that is at once > more wonderful and > more terrible than death, than human intelligence, > than the forces of > nature." This force is never named, but it is > obvious to us that this > is love. > > On day 5 Christian Rosencreutz comes across a room > that is always > locked. He is told that this room contains the > sleeping "Lady Venus". > Sound familiar? You don't have to have an IQ of 200 > to work out what > Venus symbolizes. >> > > Another post from "Mongo" > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/65101 > > Ivan Vablatsky (Hans in Holland): "see my previous > posts, incl. 55907, > 56071, 56254, 56477, 67775, 68623, 69086, 70287, > 70318, 70963, 71831, > 72782, 73252, etc." > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 14 21:45:07 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:45:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hello! Wake up call! All hands on Deck!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040314214507.45862.qmail@...> Thank you Catlady!!!! I looked up Christian Rosenkreutz on the internet!! This is an interesting excerpt from what I found... Does this sound kind of like "Mad Eye Moody" or what? "He was accompanied by a one-eyed layman called Jean, who claimed that his single eye had been given the divine faculty of distinguishing at first glance a heretic from a good Christian. Almost all who came within the field of view of this terrible eye were marked with the sign of heresy. " I think that Snow White is a German Fairy Tale... "From the Albigenses, there sprang in the middle of the thirteenth century, the wise man known today under the symbolic name of Christian Rosenkreutz, who was the last descendant of the German family of Germelshausen. So intense was the desire to suppress the heresy that grew up around this peaceful man that not only were the bodies of his followers destroyed but also the stones of the houses that had sheltered them, and the documents that might have enshrined their thought. Besides, these Hermeticists very soon realized that their only chance of survival lay in wrapping themselves in obscurity, hiding under false names, corresponding in cipher. Today, their history can no longer be traced except under the disguise of legend. But a man who has left so deep a mark after a life so obscure and so lacking in wonders and miracles cannot have been created by legend. Discretion, modesty, unostentatious goodness, knowledge without parade -- these are not the attributes of a legend. Christian Rosenkreutz is as real a figure as Jesus or Buddha; their attributes may be considered more glorious, but their historical foundation is scarcely more secure. The original Albigensian doctrines had spread fragmentarily to the north of France, the Low Countries and Germany. Families of refugees had found their way there. Solitary men had escaped, begging their way, from the sunny land in which they were thenceforward outlaws and accursed. Many of them died. But some reached the distant countries where the vine does not grow, where the rivers are more rapid and the sun less hot. And some of them gave an account of what they had heard in their low houses under the shelter of the ramparts of Toulouse or in the shadow of Montsegur; they imparted to others what was still a flaming truth in their hearts. A few of them were understood. Little nuclei of Albigenses formed round a preacher, a spare, brown-faced man, who looked like a Saracen. The seed carried by the wind was thus to germinate in the country to which chance had brought it. Under the influence of wandering Albigensians, the doctrine crossed the fir-grown mountains and flowered in the Rheon district, on the border of Hesse and Thuringia. In the middle of the Thuringian forest stood the castle of Germelshausen. The men who inhabited it were a grim, sullen family, half-brigands, whose Christianity was mixed with pagan superstitions. They spent their time fighting their neighbors, and they did not disdain to ambush and rob travelers. They venerated an idol of worn stone, the origin of which was unknown to them. It was probably the fruit of some long-past pillaging expedition. It might have been a Greek statue of Athena. It stood in the courtyard of the castle beside the chapel door. The period was the middle of the thirteenth century. Germany had just been devastated by a fanatical Dominican, Conrad of Marburg, envoy of Pope Gregory IX. Another Dominican, Tors, carried on his work. He was accompanied by a one-eyed layman called Jean, who claimed that his single eye had been given the divine faculty of distinguishing at first glance a heretic from a good Christian. Almost all who came within the field of view of this terrible eye were marked with the sign of heresy. It was no doubt enough for him to catch a glimpse, through the rocks and firs, of the towers of the castle of Germelshausen to discover from the color of its stone that it sheltered a brood of heretics. Perhaps something of the power of the eternal spirit was given off from the ancient statue that stood in the courtyard. Count Conrad of Thuringia, who had razed to the ground the little town of Willinsdorf, decided on the destruction of the castle. He besieged it several times, at intervals of some years. The castle fell at last, and the whole family of Germelshausen (which now adhered to the mystical doctrine of the Albigenses, practiced its austerities, and believed in reincarnation and in the Coagulated Body that delivers from reincarnation) was put to death at the final assault --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: >> You missed the posts on the main list connecting HP > to 'The Alchymical > Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz", which I think > would interest you. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70310 > This one lists the similarities between each of the > seven days of the > Alchymical Wedding to each of the seven years of HP, > including the end > of the first day: > << CRC is presented with seven `challenges'; six > inside the dungeon, > and one at the entrance above it, and during the > final challenge > inside the dungeon receives a wound to the head from > the stone, but > is rescued by his mentor, a wise old man >> > << The seven HP challenges: Fluffy (entrance above > the dungeon); the > Devil's Snare; the Keys; the Chess Game; the Troll; > the Potions; the > Mirror (inside the dungeon) >> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70287 > << In post 56254 I compared HP to the "Alchemical > Wedding of Christian > Rosencreutz", published in 1616. William Truderung > was kind enough to > reply in great detail and he gave a website where > the AW can be read > in modern English. > > That was before OOP. I've only just begun to recover > from the impact > of OOP and so it's very early to dig deeply into the > symbolism of it > all. However I've just woken up to an extremely > striking parallel > between HP and the AW which gave me quite a shock > which was at the > same time a thrill of breathtaking possibilities. > > In year 5 Harry comes across a room that is always > locked. He is told > that this room contains "a force that is at once > more wonderful and > more terrible than death, than human intelligence, > than the forces of > nature." This force is never named, but it is > obvious to us that this > is love. > > On day 5 Christian Rosencreutz comes across a room > that is always > locked. He is told that this room contains the > sleeping "Lady Venus". > Sound familiar? You don't have to have an IQ of 200 > to work out what > Venus symbolizes. >> > > Another post from "Mongo" > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/65101 > > Ivan Vablatsky (Hans in Holland): "see my previous > posts, incl. 55907, > 56071, 56254, 56477, 67775, 68623, 69086, 70287, > 70318, 70963, 71831, > 72782, 73252, etc." > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 14 22:57:57 2004 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:57:57 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] book six and book two Message-ID: Greetings All, Delurking for a moment to respond... JoAnna wrote: (Snip) >We've all heard the rumor (and it's been confirmed by JKR, I believe) that >"Something >very small in book two becomes very important in book six." > >I was re-reading CoS last night, and I think I've found it. > >At the very end of the book, Dobby says to Harry, "Was giving you a clue, >sir. The Dark >Lord, before he chose his name, could be freely named, you see?" (I'm >quoting from >memory here and don't have the book handy, but that's the gist.) > >Harry shrugs this off because he doesn't know what Dobby means. But, as WE >know, these >little things often turn into big important plot points. > >Thoughts? What could Dobby mean? (Apologies if this has been brought up >before or >discussed to death already.) > In many cultures if you knew the true name of someone, you had power over that person. Remember in the tale 'Rumplestilskin' when the girl tells him his name how angry he gets? In HP, folks are afraid to say Voldy's name, and most don't know that his true name was (is) Tom Riddle. Maybe since Harry knows his true name, he will prove to have power over him in some way, such as naming him to the Death Eaters. Just a thought... Peace & Plenty, Parker _________________________________________________________________ One-click access to Hotmail from any Web page download MSN Toolbar now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 14 23:36:31 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:36:31 +0000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] book six and book two In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Parker Brown Nesbit writes > >Greetings All, > >Delurking for a moment to respond... Hey, long time no hear, Parker! Hope all is well with you. > > >In many cultures if you knew the true name of someone, you had power over >that person. Remember in the tale 'Rumplestilskin' when the girl tells him >his name how angry he gets? > >In HP, folks are afraid to say Voldy's name, and most don't know that his >true name was (is) Tom Riddle. Maybe since Harry knows his true name, he >will prove to have power over him in some way, such as naming him to the >Death Eaters. > >Just a thought... > >Peace & Plenty, > >Parker It's a nice idea, but if you are suggesting that none of the DEs know Voldemort's real name, I'm not sure that you are right. I seem to recall that we are told that he was already using "Voldemort" whilst at Hogwarts, when with his closest friends - presumably some of these friends went on to be Death Eaters, and would therefore remember that Lord Voldemort used to be Tom Riddle. I like the idea of the power of names, though. Maybe in some way not connected to the Death Eaters? Unless they were memory charmed, of course ;-) Catherine, who would love to know how Voldemort managed to explain his half blood status to a load of pure-blood fanatics AND get them to follow him From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Mon Mar 15 02:08:01 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:08:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] book six and book two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040315020801.24639.qmail@...> > Catherine, who would love to know how Voldemort > managed to explain his > half blood status to a load of pure-blood fanatics > AND get them to > follow him It's not so far fetched. Adolf Hitler was not an Arian blonde haired master. He was a short Austrian with little connection to the Germans he convinced were superior to everyone else! Randy --- Catherine Coleman wrote: > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid Mon Mar 15 02:19:16 2004 From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:19:16 -0000 Subject: book six and book two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In message , Parker Brown > Nesbit writes > >In many cultures if you knew the true name of someone, you had power over > >that person. Remember in the tale 'Rumplestilskin' when the girl tells him > >his name how angry he gets? > > > >In HP, folks are afraid to say Voldy's name, and most don't know that his > >true name was (is) Tom Riddle. Maybe since Harry knows his true name, he > >will prove to have power over him in some way, such as naming him to the > >Death Eaters. > > > >Just a thought... Catherine responed: > It's a nice idea, but if you are suggesting that none of the DEs know > Voldemort's real name, I'm not sure that you are right. I seem to > recall that we are told that he was already using "Voldemort" whilst at > Hogwarts, when with his closest friends - presumably some of these > friends went on to be Death Eaters, and would therefore remember that > Lord Voldemort used to be Tom Riddle. > > I like the idea of the power of names, though. Maybe in some way not > connected to the Death Eaters? > > Unless they were memory charmed, of course ;-) Hi Parker and Catherine! Nice to see some new life in the list . I'm struck every time I read OoP and Dumbledore addresses Voldemort as "Tom". It's such a short scene, but it's the first time in all of the books so far that we see Dumbledore face to face with Voldy. We know that Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort ever feared (as well as being his former teacher) so maybe there's some deeper significance to his refusal to call him anything but Tom. Either that, or he's just trying to piss him off . Jo, hoping that Harry starts to call Voly "Tommy" to his ugly, snakeface. > > Catherine, who would love to know how Voldemort managed to explain his > half blood status to a load of pure-blood fanatics AND get them to > follow him From tim_regan82 at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid Mon Mar 15 10:37:24 2004 From: tim_regan82 at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:37:24 -0000 Subject: Hello! Wake up call! All hands on Deck!!! In-Reply-To: <20040314214507.45862.qmail@...> Message-ID: Hi All, Oh what a depressing thread. Anyone in any doubt about how tempting it is to erroneously reinterpret everything in the light of Rosicrucian and alchemical mysteries should try reading Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum". It's heavy going at times because of the wealth of detail, especially historic stuff about the Knights Templar, so I recommend the audio version. But it does show how easy it is to see everything, from shopping lists to Harry Potter, in light of ancient Gnostic mysteries. Arghhhurghhh. Cheers, grumpily, Dumbledad. PS Last time I referenced this book, someone pointed out that the timeline had a logical flaw. Please, if you do read it, don't imagine that it is adding to the madness, it's a critique. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Tue Mar 16 02:57:50 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:57:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] RE: Hello! Wake up call! All hands on Deck!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040316025750.15759.qmail@...> I had fun reading 3 different Holy Grail stories on the internet last night. I had no idea of the hundreds of interpretations of the metaphors. I did however enjoy finding pieces of characters from HP that link to the Holy Grail story which is intertwined in the history of Europe and therefore part of the myths and legends that JKR read. I just thought that the one eyed guy was so interesting. Anyway, I can now reveal that I have stumbled across some ancient documents that clearly show that the secret documents and the body of Mary Magdalene are buried on the island of Sodor and have been constantly moved around by Thomas the Tank Engine! The part of the song where the kids whistle is covering up Thomas' muffled cry of " I've got the Grail!" I think JKR may have her own funny Grail story to tell. Every really good story relates to some kind of myth or legend in some fashion. The potions test in Philosopher's Stone does imply some good old fashioned logic in Book 6. There is something to look forward to in 2007 or whenever she gets around to it! Randy PS. Sorry for all of the silly Grail posts! No offence meant to anyone's religious beliefs. I feel that the story is just a puzzle to be worked on and the alchemist legend is intriquing. --- Tim Regan wrote: > Hi All, > > Oh what a depressing thread. Anyone in any doubt > about how tempting it is to > erroneously reinterpret everything in the light of > Rosicrucian and > alchemical mysteries should try reading Umberto > Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum". > It's heavy going at times because of the wealth of > detail, especially > historic stuff about the Knights Templar, so I > recommend the audio version. > But it does show how easy it is to see everything, > from shopping lists to > Harry Potter, in light of ancient Gnostic mysteries. > Arghhhurghhh. > > Cheers, grumpily, > > Dumbledad. > > PS Last time I referenced this book, someone pointed > out that the timeline > had a logical flaw. Please, if you do read it, don't > imagine that it is > adding to the madness, it's a critique. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com From selah_1977 at selah_1977.yahoo.invalid Fri Mar 19 22:53:32 2004 From: selah_1977 at selah_1977.yahoo.invalid (Ebony) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:53:32 -0000 Subject: (OT) NYT Book Review on Philip Pullman Message-ID: Thought some might be interested in this, per our recent discussion of the trilogy here: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17000 I love this quote especially-- "Like a house on the borderlands, epic fantasy is haunted: by a sense of lost purity and grandeur, deep wisdom that has been forgotten, Arcadia spoilt, the debased or diminished stature of modern humankind; by a sense that the world, to borrow a term from John Clute, the Canadian-born British critic of fantasy and science fiction, has "thinned." This sense of thinning?of there having passed a Golden Age, a Dreamtime, when animals spoke, magic worked, children honored their parents, and fish leapt filleted into the skillet?has haunted the telling of stories from the beginning. The words 'Once upon a time' are in part a kind of magic formula for invoking the ache of this primordial nostalgia." --Ebony From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Thu Mar 25 23:45:06 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:45:06 -0600 Subject: Shadowmancer? Message-ID: <0cc801c412c3$33ed5110$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Hi -- This week's "Newsweek" has a blurb titled "Hotter than Potter," which caught my eye. It's touting a children's fantasy story called "Shadowmancer" by Anglican Vicar G. P. Taylor, and it supposedly outsold OoP in the UK for several weeks last summer. Taylor apparently got $550,000 for the US publishing rights, and there's a sequel due out in June. Anyone read this book? BTW, I read and loved Da Vinci Code and was also intrigued by the Flamel references that Randy brought to our attention. I meant to add into that discussion and then it was died out by the time I had found the time. :--) Penny From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sat Mar 27 03:30:26 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:30:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Shadowmancer? In-Reply-To: <0cc801c412c3$33ed5110$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20040327033026.52648.qmail@...> Hi Penny, You know I keep doing various searches on different keywords on the internet. I have lately been finding items about Sirius, the Dog Star. It seems to be a key to alot of things. Obviously the Great Pyramid has chambers that line up with Sirius, and the three pyramids at Giza form the pattern of the three stars in Orion's belt. Sirius is the bright star slight down and to the left of Orion's belt (the 3 stars in a row). But did you know about Sirius A and B the twin stars. One is a white dwarf and the other is the bright hot star that we see in the night sky. The smaller star (white dwarf) is very dense and exerts a magnetic pull on the brighter star( actually the brightest star in the sky). In JKR's book 5, didn't it mention that Sirius Black had a brother? The dwarf star pulls on the larger star causing it to have erratic motion of travel making a double helix pattern between the 2 stars kind of like the DNA pattern. Sirius Black also had erratic behavior. I wonder what his brother was like? Anyway, the Great pyramid links us back to the capstone at the top which the Freemasons use in their symbology. There is a reported connection between the masons and the Knights Templar which gets you back to the Rosecrucians again. If you want to see the mason's symbol look at the back of the US one dollar bill at the seal with the pyramid. It seems many of the founding fathers of the US (George Washington and Ben Franklin, etc.) were masons and even the people who were in the Boston Tea Party were masons. The oldest Masonic lodge is in Edinburgh, Scotland. Isn't that near where JKR comes from? Another pyramid connection is the capstone model called a Benben or very sacred stone kept in the Temple of the Phoenix at Heliopolis. It is the model for the capstones of monumental pyramids and obelisks. The work Bennu (meaning Phoenix) was mentioned regarding astral rebirth relating to Osiris and Isis and the cult of the Mithras. From Death comes the birth of new life. Sirius is the star that dies and is reborn because due to the earth's polar wobble, Sirius disappears for a period of about 50 years ( where the pyramids are) and then appears on the Horizon again. This happened around the time of Jesus birth (some think it the star in the East mentioned in the Bible). If you think about it Harry is born and saved at the same time that Sirius disappears and is sent to Azkaban. The Goddess Isis went to great lengths to have the child in the mythology just like Harry's mom went to great lengths to protect Harry. The world history listed by the masons on their website also mentions a man named Severus who in 290 AD was one of 4 crowned martyrs who would not worship or pay homage to a pagan god. I wonder is Snape will refuse to bow down to Voldemort in Book 6. He might be martyred as well. Sorry if this is hard to digest, but I think that JKR likes ancient symbols and mythology. The Masons appear to like ancient symbols and mythology. I think she uses alot of the same in her stories. For some strange reason, this interests me lately. I wonder about white dwarfs and the Sirius legend of rebirth after death and the possibilities in future Potter books!!! By the way, the days of the week are named after the five known planets (Roman Times) and the sun and moon. The symbol for Saturn (Saturday) is Lead in Alchemy. The symbol for the Sun (Sunday) is Gold in Alchemy. As you spiritually prepare yourself from Saturday night to Sunday morning, you essentially turn Lead into Gold!!! Note 7 days of the week and the seven stages in Alchemist story of Philosopher's stone. The English names of the days are influenced by Germanic gods and goddesses, but Latin based languages like French use The Days of the week come from the Romans Lundi (lunar) (Moon) Monday Mardi (Mars) (? germanic name) Tuesday Mercredi(Mercury)(? germanic name) Wednesday Jeudi (Jupiter) (Thor) Thursday Vendredi (Venus) (?) Friday Samedi (Sabbath or Saturn) Saturday Dimanche (Dominus or Sun ) Sunday Randy ---who has never read so much history since college!!!!! Sorry if this is too long and boring. oh well. --- pennylin wrote: > Hi -- > > This week's "Newsweek" has a blurb titled "Hotter > than Potter," which caught > my eye. It's touting a children's fantasy story > called "Shadowmancer" by > Anglican Vicar G. P. Taylor, and it supposedly > outsold OoP in the UK for > several weeks last summer. Taylor apparently got > $550,000 for the US > publishing rights, and there's a sequel due out in > June. > > Anyone read this book? > > BTW, I read and loved Da Vinci Code and was also > intrigued by the Flamel > references that Randy brought to our attention. I > meant to add into that > discussion and then it was died out by the time I > had found the time. :--) > > Penny > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Sat Mar 27 08:36:09 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:36:09 +0000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Shadowmancer? In-Reply-To: <0cc801c412c3$33ed5110$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> References: <0cc801c412c3$33ed5110$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <4z2rmEH5zTZAJw$5@...> In message <0cc801c412c3$33ed5110$4f5ffea9 at cq5hs01>, pennylin writes >Hi -- > >This week's "Newsweek" has a blurb titled "Hotter than Potter," which >caught >my eye.? It's touting a children's fantasy story called "Shadowmancer" by >Anglican Vicar G. P. Taylor, and it supposedly outsold OoP in the UK for >several weeks last summer.? Taylor apparently got $550,000 for the US >publishing rights, and there's a sequel due out in June. > >Anyone read this book? It has been very popular here - to the extent that they've brought out special editions etc. I have a copy, but haven't yet read it - I started to a few months ago, and then, for some reason, lost interest. I'll give it another go this weekend and let you know what I think. Catherine From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid Sat Mar 27 18:00:27 2004 From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:00:27 -0000 Subject: Shadowmancer? In-Reply-To: <0cc801c412c3$33ed5110$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: Penny wrote:- >>> This week's "Newsweek" has a blurb titled "Hotter than Potter," which caught my eye. It's touting a children's fantasy story called "Shadowmancer" by Anglican Vicar G. P. Taylor, and it supposedly outsold OoP in the UK for several weeks last summer. Taylor apparently got $550,000 for the US publishing rights, and there's a sequel due out in June.>>> Ali replies: I bought and read Shadowmancer a few months ago. From memory, it was a book which I just picked up and read into the small hours until I had finished. For me, it lost it a little towards the end, but I was still sad when I had finished it. It is another classic tale of good v. evil. Although I enjoyed Shadowmancer at the time, I've remembered very little about it. It's definitely worth a read, and for me, now you've mentioned it again, a re-read. In terms of "Hotter than Potter", for me, no it wasn't. It is a good book, and I did care about some of the characters. But the HP books have felt very special, in a way that Shadowmancer just didn't. Shadowmancer didn't play on my mind and demand several dozen re- reads, and analysing and reanalysing details. It wouldn't get me to join chat groups on the net, or go into London and meet strangers. I certainly can't imagine wanting to organise a conference in its honour. That is special to Harry Potter. Ali From pengolodh_sc at pengolodh_sc.yahoo.invalid Sat Mar 27 18:33:04 2004 From: pengolodh_sc at pengolodh_sc.yahoo.invalid (pengolodh_sc) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:33:04 -0000 Subject: Shadowmancer? In-Reply-To: <20040327033026.52648.qmail@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd, Randy Estes wrote: [snip] > The Days of the week come from the Romans > > Lundi (lunar) (Moon) Monday > Mardi (Mars) (? germanic name) Tuesday > Mercredi(Mercury)(? germanic name) Wednesday > Jeudi (Jupiter) (Thor) Thursday > Vendredi (Venus) (?) Friday > Samedi (Sabbath or Saturn) Saturday > Dimanche (Dominus or Sun ) Sunday [snip] Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday are from Norse. Tuesday is named for the Norse/Germanic god of war, Ty (Ti). Wednesday is named for the chief Norse/Germanic god, Odin (also written Wotan). Thursday is named for Thor, god of lightning and combat. Friday is named for Frey, the god of fertility (his sister Freya was goddess of fertility). Best regards Christian Stub? From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 28 06:12:37 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 06:12:37 -0000 Subject: Day Names (was: Shadowmancer?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday are from Norse. Tuesday is > named for the Norse/Germanic god of war, Ty (Ti). Being the god of war is why Mars was chosen to parallel Tyr (as Randy said, Tuesday = mardi). > Wednesday is named for the chief Norse/Germanic god, Odin (also > written Wotan). The Romans chose Mercury to parallel Odin (Wednesday = mercredi) on the theory that they were both gods of the dead. Mercury was the psychopomp, who led dead soul to the land of the dead, altho' us moderns feel that aspect is minor compared to his roles as patron of travel, commerce, news, lies, lawyers, etc. We think Hades/Pluto was much more god of the dead than Hermes/Mercury. > Thursday is named for Thor, god of lightning and combat. Thursday = jeudi. (My friend used to call her mother "Thursday" because her name was Judy.) Jeudi is named for Jove/Jupiter/Zeus. It is his role as Thunderer that makes him parallel to Thor, altho' us moderns would expect his role as King of the Gods to make him parallel to Odin. > Friday is named for Frey, the god of fertility (his sister Freya > was goddess of fertility). Friday was named for FreyA (or for Frigga, wife of Odin, from whose name comes the word 'frig'; there is some dispute), not Frey. Because Friday = vendredi, named after Venus/Aphrodite, goddESS of beauty, love, sex, prostitution, etc, so the parallel had also to be a female deity. From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 28 14:59:43 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 06:59:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Day Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040328145943.67515.qmail@...> Hi, I just took that crazy tickle IQ test. It said I was a Visionary Philosopher like Plato. Maybe that's why I keep looking at all of these silly symbols. Oh well. Not much financial gain to being a Philosopher these days!! I'm a few thousand years too late! :0) Regarding the astronomy connections to the names in Harry Potter, I noticed something called Potter's field. Anyone know anything about that? I see visions of noone answering my question......there are lots of people who could care less..... Posting a hypothetical... If an email is sent into the proverbial cyber forest and there are no responses to it, does the cyber voice in the wilderness go unheard? Was that the sound of a tree falling? the great Randolpho --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > > > > Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday are from > Norse. Tuesday is > > named for the Norse/Germanic god of war, Ty (Ti). > > > Being the god of war is why Mars was chosen to > parallel Tyr (as Randy > said, Tuesday = mardi). > > > Wednesday is named for the chief Norse/Germanic > god, Odin (also > > written Wotan). > > The Romans chose Mercury to parallel Odin (Wednesday > = mercredi) on > the theory that they were both gods of the dead. > Mercury was the > psychopomp, who led dead soul to the land of the > dead, altho' us > moderns feel that aspect is minor compared to his > roles as patron of > travel, commerce, news, lies, lawyers, etc. We think > Hades/Pluto was > much more god of the dead than Hermes/Mercury. > > > > Thursday is named for Thor, god of lightning and > combat. > > Thursday = jeudi. (My friend used to call her mother > "Thursday" > because her name was Judy.) Jeudi is named for > Jove/Jupiter/Zeus. It > is his role as Thunderer that makes him parallel to > Thor, altho' us > moderns would expect his role as King of the Gods to > make him parallel > to Odin. > > > Friday is named for Frey, the god of fertility > (his sister Freya > > was goddess of fertility). > > Friday was named for FreyA (or for Frigga, wife of > Odin, from whose > name comes the word 'frig'; there is some dispute), > not Frey. Because > Friday = vendredi, named after Venus/Aphrodite, > goddESS of beauty, > love, sex, prostitution, etc, so the parallel had > also to be a female > deity. > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 28 20:01:23 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:01:23 -0000 Subject: Potter's Field In-Reply-To: <20040328145943.67515.qmail@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes wrote: > Hi, > > I just took that crazy tickle IQ test. URL? > It said I was a Visionary Philosopher like Plato. Maybe that's why > I keep looking at all of these silly symbols. Oh well. Not much > financial gain to being a Philosopher these days!! I'm a few > thousand years too late! :0) I don't know that there was ever any money in being a Visionary Philosopher like Plato ... I think Plato was living on inherited wealth. > Regarding the astronomy connections to the names in > Harry Potter, I noticed something called Potter's > field. Anyone know anything about that? Here is a great resource: http://www.onelook.com/index.html It looks up a word in 30+ on-line reference books, including my beloved American Heritage Dictionary at www.bartleby.com, www.dictionary.com which looks up the word in about a dozen dictionaries, the Columbia Encyclopedia, and wonderful Wikipedia. For "Potter's Field", it found no Wikipedia entry but here are some answers from dictionary.com: American Heritage Dictionary: potter's field, n. A place for the burial of unknown or indigent persons. [From the potter's field mentioned in Matthew 27:7.] Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (c) 1996,1998: Potter's field, a public burial place, especially in a city, for paupers, unknown persons, and criminals; -- so named from the field south of Jerusalem, mentioned in --Matt. xxvii. 7. Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary: Potters field - the name given to the piece of ground which was afterwards bought with the money that had been given to Judas. It was called the "field of blood" (Matt. 27:7-10). Tradition places it in the valley of Hinnom. (See ACELDAMA.) From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Mon Mar 29 02:01:29 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Potter's Field In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040329020129.17973.qmail@...> Catlady, > > I just took that crazy tickle IQ test. > > URL? The Tickle IQ test was an add I found on the New York Times article I was reading. You take an IQ test and get a score and a description of your type of intellect based on the questions you got right. Some are math, some verbal, some spatial, some patterns, etc... They want you to purchase a 15 page detailed report afterwards, but I haven't and I still got my score. The problem is that they want to bill you monthly for future tests. The tests are actually created by PHDs for company evaluations etc... tickle-inc.com I was feeling good this morning, so I took the test. It was fun... We had a few laughs, I really don't want to commit...you know...:0) Randy --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I just took that crazy tickle IQ test. > > URL? --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I just took that crazy tickle IQ test. > > URL? > > > It said I was a Visionary Philosopher like Plato. > Maybe that's why > > I keep looking at all of these silly symbols. Oh > well. Not much > > financial gain to being a Philosopher these days!! > I'm a few > > thousand years too late! :0) > > I don't know that there was ever any money in being > a Visionary > Philosopher like Plato ... I think Plato was living > on inherited wealth. > > > Regarding the astronomy connections to the names > in > > Harry Potter, I noticed something called Potter's > > field. Anyone know anything about that? > > Here is a great resource: > http://www.onelook.com/index.html > > It looks up a word in 30+ on-line reference books, > including my > beloved American Heritage Dictionary at > www.bartleby.com, > www.dictionary.com which looks up the word in about > a dozen > dictionaries, the Columbia Encyclopedia, and > wonderful Wikipedia. > > For "Potter's Field", it found no Wikipedia entry > but here are some > answers from dictionary.com: > > American Heritage Dictionary: > potter's field, n. A place for the burial of unknown > or indigent > persons. [From the potter's field mentioned in > Matthew 27:7.] > > Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (c) > 1996,1998: > Potter's field, a public burial place, especially in > a city, for > paupers, unknown persons, and criminals; -- so named > from the field > south of Jerusalem, mentioned in --Matt. xxvii. 7. > > > Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary: > Potters field - the name given to the piece of > ground which was > afterwards bought with the money that had been given > to Judas. It was > called the "field of blood" (Matt. 27:7-10). > Tradition places it in > the valley of Hinnom. (See ACELDAMA.) > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Sun Mar 28 23:19:11 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:19:11 EDT Subject: Voice from the past Message-ID: Literally. LOL Hi, bunch, remember me? I had an interesting day yesterday and thought I'd share. Hubby did a film a while ago that has been playing at Star Trek and SciFi conventions. Well, there was a convention this past weekend nearby, so we went. And it was chock-full of celebs because it wasn't exclusively for Star Trek fans. There were symposiums and talks by directors, actors, writers, producers, etc. He was excited because he was hoping to be recognized, and I was excited because the actors who played Neville and Seamus were there. I even brought my leather bound special collector's edition of Sorcerer's Stone for them to sign. Well, they were both delightful boys and I managed not to geek out too much. LOL Matthew (Neville) was rather impressed with the book. I don't think he'd seen this edition before. But here's the rub. Seamus is still Seamus. But Neville has changed majorly! He's lost all of his babyfat and is now at least 5'6". His hair is darker and has some curl in it now. Puberty has struck and I think Daniel Radcliffe is going to have some competition. Talk about a little cutie! Anywho, just thought you'd all get a kick out of it. Jeralyn, the Voicelady Oh, and before I go, I also got Leonard Stone's autograph. Recognize the name? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller? He played Violet's father in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory. He had replica's of his prop business card "With Sam B. it's a guarantee.) which he signed for me. And I think he would have chatted forever with me if we didn't have other places to go. Very nice, delightful man. From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid Mon Mar 29 03:45:40 2004 From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:45:40 -0000 Subject: Voice from the past In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "voicelady" wrote: > Seamus is still Seamus. But Neville has changed majorly! He's lost all of his babyfat and is now at least 5'6". His hair is darker and has some curl in it now. Puberty has struck and I think Daniel Radcliffe is > going to have some competition. Talk about a little cutie! > > Anywho, just thought you'd all get a kick out of it. Thanks, Jeralyn. That must have been so much fun! I've noticed that the actor playing Neville looked very different in the glimpses I've seen in some of the trailers for PoA. I'm a bit worried that he's changed enough that the powers that be (at WB) may want to replace him for not being Neville-ish enough, which would be a real shame, IMO. What do you think from having seen him in person? Would the movie makers value continuity over getting someone who was still a bit more like book-Neville. Jo S., who would miss the original Neville terribly, even if he has become a bit less cuddly :D. From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Mon Mar 29 00:50:21 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:50:21 EDT Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Voice from the past Message-ID: ---Jo wrote: Thanks, Jeralyn. That must have been so much fun! I've noticed that the actor playing Neville looked very different in the glimpses I've seen in some of the trailers for PoA. I'm a bit worried that he's changed enough that the powers that be (at WB) may want to replace him for not being Neville-ish enough, which would be a real shame, IMO. What do you think from having seen him in person? Would the movie makers value continuity over getting someone who was still a bit more like book-Neville. Jo S., who would miss the original Neville terribly, even if he has become a bit less cuddly :D.------ Well, at the extreme risk of sounding like a pedophile, he's still quite cuddly, but just not in a "There, there, have a cookie, Neville" sort of way. ROFL You know, I don't really know. I didn't recognize him at first, but my husband realized who it was right off the bat. And when I was speaking with him, you could definitely tell it was the same kid. And he's so appealing as the character, that the producers and director could just ask him to put on a few pounds for filming, and the makeup people could take care of the hair easily enough. And if they don't change him physically for the film, I think that would be okay, as well. Kids hit puberty and grow up, right? A line could be tossed in as an aside - "Wow, Neville, you grew over the summer!" I think the powers that be will keep him. He's associated with the part, and all of the kids have formed a bond that will only enhance any future films. I think we're still good. Jeralyn, the Voicelady