From lunalovegood at tbernhard2000.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 02:45:32 2004 From: lunalovegood at tbernhard2000.yahoo.invalid (Dan Feeney) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 02:45:32 -0000 Subject: Profile of new "ancient" Message-ID: Dan, tbernhard, darkthirty HP nightmare - rainy winter cross country drive in Mini Cooper with Lockhart at wheel, Hermione navigating, and Ron carsick in the back beside me, and Pig being Pig between us, and I have a migraine even thinking about this HP fantasy - job at DoM, studying the magic properties of music in the arts section (sigh) HP Perversions - believe Harry is actually in a closet of sorts, etc., believe that Rowling is amoral, and is writing essentially an ethical dialogue Favourite HP book - OotP, by 3 or 4 house elf heads at least Favourite HP ship - Harry and Luna, though BOTH MUST DIE! Nightmare HP ship - Snape and anyone but Tonks Favourite HP characters - ~!~*Luna*~!~, Snape, Myrtle, oh and I guess Harry Burning HP questions - What the heck is Granger writing to Krum? Will there be more dragons, please, and some dragon blood uses? How did whatever is in the room that's always locked get there if it's always locked, and how is it locked, and so forth? How did Dumbledore "defeat" Grindelwald? And so on. That's enough to be getting on with. Dan From triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 02:58:53 2004 From: triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid (Trina) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 02:58:53 -0000 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey y'all! In the words of Hermione, "it was ever such a surprise when I got my letter, but I was ever so pleased of course..." ***Name: Trina ***Nicknames/IDs: Trina, Triner, Ms. Gabbard, Speech Teacher (but only for those K-2nd graders at school) ***Age: 34, but subject to change in 17 days' time ***Family: I am unattached with two cats (which may explain the unattachedness). Their names are Lady Jane and Dudley. Lady Jane is grey, hence the name and, IMO, her attitude. Never should have named her after royalty. The Dudders is *not* named after Ickle Diddikens, but Guilford Dudley, the original Lady Jane Gray's husband. (I went on a historical bender. Might as well put that history minor to some practical use.) However, I now have a whole host of nicknames for my own sweet Dudley, thanks to HP! ***Home I just bought a house in February, so now broke in manner of home owners everywhere, in South Carolina, currently bracing for Hurricane Frances. Although not my town, as I am in the Upstate, far from any storm surge action! I did live about 70 miles from Wilmington, NC at the time of Fran and ,quite frankly, one hurricane was enough for me to head for the hills! ***Birthday, Place of Birth: September 18, Cincinnati, OH. But grew up in Central Illinois. ***Education/Job/Role in Life etc: I currently work in the public schools as a speech therapist, so my vast knowledge of HP comes in handy! My main role in life is to buy books as often as possible and to read at all times. ***Other things we might want to know about you: I remember the most trivial things and the first time I played Trivial Pursuit at the age of 13, against my aunts & uncles, I won. Later, when I first played my friend Linda and trounced her, she told me, appalled, "That's the first time I have ever lost this game!" I think this tendency of mine makes me feel quite at home with y'all! ***First contact with Harry Potter: I first read HP in August of 1999, just before PoA came out here in the States. I had seen it for a long time and looked at it before I broke down and bought it. I read it in a weekend and promptly returned to Barnes & Noble (my natural habitat) for CoS. ***Favourite Potter things (books, characters, ships, fics, objets d'Art, general enthusing): Like many folks, my favorite book is PoA for many reasons. I still think one of the most brilliant ideas was chocolate being the antidote for an up close & personal with the dementors. I also have a small caulron (actually a raku pot that I made at the annual street fair here in town), a sorting hat key chain, a watch (both gifts from a friend who indulges my obsession), the Scholastic OoP hat, and an egg-shaped white owl. Fave characters: Hermione (like calls to like, you know), the whole Weasley clan (although I am very seriously worried about Percy), McGonagall (four stunners to the chest and still going stronG!). ***Extent of Potter obsession: It seems to have waned a bit, in terms of talking about it online, but I did see PoA the day it was released, and going to the bookstore at midnight to get my copy of OoP was a forgone conclusion. I also have all the books on audiotape so that I can "read" them at the YMCA while walking. Laugh if you will, but I've lost nearly 30 pounds since November and have started over with SS and now do my weights after walking through a cassette side. ***Other interests/activities: Reading, writing in my journal, taking care of my house, veging out in front of the tv... ***Current/recent reading: Just read Jasper Fforde's "Something Rotten" the latest Thursday Next adventure ***Current/recent listening: SheDaisy, Sara Evans, whatever is on the radio ***Current/recent viewing: The Olympics (but they're over--now what do I watch!?), Charmed, The Gilmore Girls, Dead Like Me Trina, who also did the cut & paste thing! From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 03:13:32 2004 From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb2) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:13:32 -0000 Subject: McGonagall/Take 2 (was Snape's Backslide) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carolyn: > Before one of the venerable ancients here points it out - ok, Minerva > wasn't at school with Tom Riddle. She left the year before he > started, but no problem . Theory, take 2: Oh, no, I think you were right the first time around. By my reckoning, McGonagall was at most 2 years older than Riddle, and a man as charming and accomplished as Riddle would not have been too old for McGonagall. The Lexicon, IIRC, used to have a much earlier date for McGonagall's birth, but Steve has seen the light and pushed her birthdate to 1925. :-) And here's my support for an even shorter age difference: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90147 So I agree with you: Snape and McGonagall are kindred spirits, having both been taken in by Voldemort. Debbie who first jumped aboard the McGonagall/Riddle ship in post 83852 From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 04:34:25 2004 From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 04:34:25 -0000 Subject: Intro Message-ID: Hello from Quirrell Corner! I'm not clever enough for a snappy intro, but we Hopeless Cases do what we can. I was surprised when I got the invite owl. But I'm glad to see some old faces here. I'm working my way through the whole list from the beginning. But I'm sort of obessessive that way. See below. ***Name: Susan ***Nicknames/IDs: Constance Vigilance. This name is not so clever as people think. I have never read the books, but only listen to the tapes during long California commutes. This is what I actually thought Jim Dale said. So I'm named after a mistake. There you go. ***Age: 49. Yup. But my profile on Match.com says 42. Don't tell on me. ***Family: Single, but owned by one beautiful Maine Coon cat named Harvey. I rescued him from the animal shelter and was very surprised when I learned he was a purebred. He's not sure that my breeding is up to snuff. ***Home San Bernardino California. Nothing to brag about there, other than low home prices. If homes are priced by location, location, location, then you know something else about my town. Since I moved here 20 years ago, the city has burned down twice - the latest was last October. It's an hour drive to anywhere, including any job that I might have. I entertain myself with my books on tape and my cellphone. ***Birthday, Place of Birth: Oct 14, Shelbyville, Ill. Moved here as a child with my parents and pretty much spent all my days in beautiful San Bernardino. ***Education/Job/Role in Life etc: I build web sites. I have zero talent in the art department, but if you create the pretty pictures and fonts, I can make it work. Unfortunately, so can any of thousands in China, Russia or India. My last job was outsourced to India and it seems the current one may go that way, too. Anyone need a web programmer who speaks English as a first language? ***First contact with Harry Potter Long commutes are good for something! Got the tapes on rental, never looked back. Still haven't actually READ any of the books, though. But I do own a set which I use for reference. ***Favourite Potter things (books, characters, ships, fics, objets d'Art, general enthusing): I am the founder and currently sole member of the Quirrell fan club. I have a beautiful theory about where my beloved Q-man is right now. Book canon never says he died. But JKR website (if we accept it as canon) has been shooting holes in my beautiful theory. However, no amount of evidence to the contrary will ever sway the totally devoted theorist, so I'm sticking by my story. Besides - in JKR's world, not even death takes a character out of play. So, where is Quirrell now? It's obvious! He's in Norway, recruiting trolls and Durmstrang students for an eleventh-hour save-everybody Cavalry rescue by means of the Hogwarts lake. I don't have many converts to my theory, but I can take pride in at least being the first to notice that the Q-man is related to Scandinavia, which has become a sort of a given in the fandom. ***Extent of Potter obsession: Dunno if it's really an obsession, but Potter stuff does take a large part of my time. I went to Nimbus 2003, Convention Alley, am already registered for Witching Hour and Accio, and am part of the planning team for Lumos 2006. I also pride myself on having read, or at least scanned, nearly every post on the HP4GU list. I don't do fanfic or RPG, but I do like to write filks which is where anyone might have heard of me. When I post lately, it has been on the Hogs_Head Yahoo group. ***Other interests/activities: Very concerned about politics (liberal Democrat), which is probably why I bury myself in Potter - to get away from being constantly depressed about the state of things today. Otherwise, I quilt for charity - I've given away nearly 100 quilts to homeless and disadvantaged. ***Current/recent reading: I tend to read political books these days. Recent books include Dude, Where's my Country (Michael Moore), Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them (Franken), Pigs at the Trough (Huffington), The Best Democracy Money Can Buy (?), Bush at War, anything by Molly Ivers, you get the idea. ***Current/recent listening: Here we go again. I stream Air America Radio all day long. www.airamericaradio.com. Some others on this list claim to have recently read The Lovely Bones. I read that and hated every word. Depressed me for a week. I guess each to his own, eh? ***Current/recent viewing: I never miss The Daily Show. I'm a Star Trek fan since the original series, and seem to be about the only one who never misses an episode of Enterprise. I loathe reality shows, so my televiewing is mercifully growing shorter as the schedule fills with such drek. I do love opera and live theater and go as often as I can. Luckily, the LA Music Center has public rush tickets (last minute) for $12, so I do get to go to nearly everything here in town. I especially love musicals as I get filking ideas there. Constance Vigilance, who sure sounds like a dweeb from this intro. From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 04:40:46 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:40:46 +1000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Profile of new "ancient" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040901044045.GA28349@...> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 02:45:32AM -0000, Dan Feeney wrote: > Dan, tbernhard, darkthirty > > HP nightmare - rainy winter cross country drive in Mini Cooper with > Lockhart at wheel, Hermione navigating, and Ron carsick in the back > beside me, and Pig being Pig between us, and I have a migraine even > thinking about this No no no, Ron driving, Snape navigating and me in the back with a pitchfork ready to gouge Snapes eyes out....wait...that's my HP fantasy. > HP fantasy - job at DoM, studying the magic properties of music in > the arts section (sigh) > > HP Perversions - believe Harry is actually in a closet of sorts, > etc., believe that Rowling is amoral, and is writing essentially an > ethical dialogue As in the Greek sense of "give X and Y different metaphysical positions, discuss" or just moralizing? > Favourite HP book - OotP, by 3 or 4 house elf heads at least Agree. Though how the hell she can top this is anyone's guess. The closer you get to an "adult" perspective, the harder it is to avoid stuff that younger audiences don't understand, and parents avoid. It's simply great writing that she's taken us this far. > Favourite HP ship - Harry and Luna, though BOTH MUST DIE! Awww, why? I too think this ship is far more likely than Harry with anyone else. Because you don't introduce a major character this far into the story, who also gets right under our Hero's skin this quickly unless they have a major emotional role for him, especially if it doesn't last....aaaah I see where you're going with this... > Nightmare HP ship - Snape and anyone but Tonks That's really being unfair to Tonks. I have no further comments at this time. > Favourite HP characters - ~!~*Luna*~!~, Snape, Myrtle, oh and I guess > Harry Yeah Luna is great, and I'm keen to see how the Greco-Roman interpretation of her name will pan out. > Burning HP questions - What the heck is Granger writing to Krum? Will > there be more dragons, please, and some dragon blood uses? How did > whatever is in the room that's always locked get there if it's always > locked, and how is it locked, and so forth? How did > Dumbledore "defeat" Grindelwald? And so on. I believe canon has led to the general consensus that whatever Hermione is saying *privately* to Krum, it has OotP business also involved. Grindelwald's defeat will probably be important knowledge. The locked room, by my reading of canon, is supposed to contain Love, unless Dumbledore is being metaphorical about it. Vote more dragons yep. I see some interesting themes in the discussion already but need to organize my thoughts a bit more, but I'll posit two positions here now and follow up later: 1. Ron and Hermione. For sure. Get over it. 2. Snape is not worth saving. Get over that too. 3. Harry has to die. Not easy to get over, but must be faced. THREE positions: Ron and Hermione, Snape not worth saving, Harry to die, and Tonks is cute -- FOUR! FOUR positions...it's no good I'll have to start again... -- Sorry! Your request for "www.icann.org" was not successful. The domain may not exist or may be a bunch of jerks that won't let us get away with world domination. Please visit this super awesome site to find what you're looking for. From akhillin at akhillin.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 08:18:13 2004 From: akhillin at akhillin.yahoo.invalid (Anita Hillin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 03:18:13 -0500 Subject: Yet another intro Message-ID: <003701c48ffc$39e29e20$91599418@...> I extend my Hello from scenic Lake Michigan, writing at 2:45 a.m. (don't ask). I was pleased to get the invitation, although I presumed it was because I had posted my age at Yahoo. However, I've decided not to take "old" at face value. ***Name: Anita (now, there's a shock!) ***Nicknames/IDs: akh, AnitaKH, akhillin. Apart from my appalling lack of imagination when it comes to nicknames, I've never had one that stuck, so why fight destiny? ***Age: 50. Hence the comment above. ***Family: Single, although I've been in a relationship for 11 years. Bob collects the HP books, but he hasn't actually read them, so I turn to you good people for my HP discussion. ***Home Chicago, IL. I actually live in the city, in Rogers Park, if any of you know Chicago. ***Birthday, Place of Birth: January 14, Wichita, KS. I moved to Chicago to go to graduate school, and I never left. ***Education/Job/Role in Life etc: I'm currently at leisure, but that will have to end soon, unless I choose destitution as my next life experience. I am a fund-raiser by profession, having worked in higher education for 20 years, either in Development or Alumni Relations. Looking for a bit of a change now. ***First contact with Harry Potter I was taking a business flight to California in 2001, just as the first movie had been released. I had forgotten my magazine, so I stopped in an O'Hare bookstore. They were packed with paperbacks of "Sorcerer's Stone," and I had been meaning to read it, so I picked it up and read it on that trip. Of course, my next three business trips featured Chamber of Secrets, Prisoner of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire, the latter in hardcover. I haven't looked back since. ***Favourite Potter things (books, characters, ships, fics, objets d'Art, general enthusing): I seem to have begun collecting the books, since I now have both the American and the British editions of all five books. I also bought the collector's editions of SS and COS for Bob. My favorite book of the five published is "Prisoner of Azkaban," although my feeling about this is that my least favorite HP book ranks well above much of what I've read, and that's fairly extensive, given I have a minor in English. I thoroughly enjoy the movies; I'm one of those who appreciates the differences as well as the similarities to the books. There you go. ***Extent of Potter obsession: Bob decided I was completely obsessed when I pre-ordered both the British and American versions of OOTP. I had already ordered the Bloomsbury edition, but once I heard I could get the Scholastic edition delivered on June 21, of course I had to order it. I then proceeded to read it in one sitting. I have every intention to do the same thing with HBP. ***Other interests/activities: I am an actress by training, so I'm very interested in the arts. I do shows occasionally, but since I hate auditioning, it limits my roles. I sing in a church choir and serve on various committees. ***Current/recent reading: I make an annual pilgrimage to the land of Jane Austen (and work very hard to incorporate Jane into my posts). I've been on a recent non-fiction kick, reading "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" and I'm getting ready to tackle the new Alexander Hamilton biography. ***Current/recent listening: Usually, I'm an NPR junkie, but I have little patience for any political convention coverage, and I'm not a Republican, so I've been avoiding them this week. When NPR is not running conventions or fund drives (that was also this week; what a combination!), I try to catch "This American Life" and "Fresh Air." ***Current/recent viewing: Taking the summer off confirmed my suspicion that daytime television is skimpy. Therefore, I've become a big fan of "SpongeBob SquarePants," which is on three times a day. Woohoo!! I feel like I've been to a lot of movies this summer, but then I realized I've just seen the same three or four movies several times. Not sure how that happened... akh, who's impressed you made it this far, if you're reading this! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 11:39:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (kneasy) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:39:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's Backslide (was Re: Welcome!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" wrote: > > Kneasy insists that the pensieve memory is of Snape's wife and child, > [result of bonking Florence behind the greenhouse], but I maintain it > was his parents after all, that his father was an original Voldy > supporter and DE (hence Snape's knowledge of the dark arts at age > 11), but both parents have perished in a Voldy-related action in VW1. > > It's one of the bitternesses that is driving Snape for revenge, > although not all of it. There is something else, and I don't know > what it is, but I'll need serious persuasion it is love for a woman. > Hmm. Well, as you appreciate I'm not into SHIPping, but I don't see why ole Snapey shouldn't have a bit of fun at some time in his miserable existence. Shy, adolescent fumblings behind the greenhouse, probably accompanied by excessive drooling plus nettle stings and mosquito bites seemed about right. The unfortunate consequences were an 'awful warning' in the best tradition of moralistic Victorian novels. His parents - the problem there is the same problem that we have everywhere else concerning Snape - the total embargo on information. It's most irritating in one way but conversely we have the fun and games of devising entertaining scenarios. Something triggered the traumatic split with Voldy and 'family' looks a good bet. Though I really don't see him as a 'mummy's boy' - spruced up and scowling, dragged down to Diagon Alley to do the weekly shopping: "Morning Mrs Snape. My! Hasn't your Sevvy grown! Those ringlets! So cute! Be the bats-brains and splinched toad as usual, will it?" "Grr!" And to stir feelings of revenge and retribution he must have had at least a few positive feelings about his father. Unless, of course, it was his DE father who decided to sever the matrimonial knot in the most distressingly emphatic manner. Zap! That might work. So far as I know no-one has suggested that it was a sibling that might have come to grief - another possibility, I suppose. One thing that does surprise me is that whatever happened nobody talks about it, nobody seems to know about it. In a small closed society like the WW this seems unlikely. Maybe if Harry had a quiet chat with Molly - I bet she knows all the gossip. Sirius claimed Snape had a greater knowledge of dark arts at 11 than most of the sixth year. Who taught him and how? From what we know Snape wouldn't get a wand until he received his Hogwarts letter and he seems pretty contemptuous of 'wand-waving' anyway. So unless he showed a precocious proclivity for arcane culinary arts I don't see how he would have learned that much that early. Though he'd make up for it later on the post-grad "Murder and Mayhem for Aspirant DEs" course. No; I suspect casual hyperbole on Sirius' part. Kneasy From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 12:39:00 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:39:00 +1000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Snape's Backslide (was Re: Welcome!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040901123900.GA8032@...> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 11:39:56AM -0000, kneasy wrote: > His parents - the problem there is the same problem that we have > everywhere else concerning Snape - the total embargo on information. > It's most irritating in one way but conversely we have the fun and > games of devising entertaining scenarios. Something triggered the > traumatic split with Voldy and 'family' looks a good bet. Or not. JKR's impatience with the legions of Snape's adoring fans seems odd when we consider this embargo. Dare we hope that Harry's curiosity overcomes his blind prejudice? Do we have to depend on Harry for the knowledge? > One thing that does surprise me is that whatever happened nobody > talks about it, nobody seems to know about it. In a small closed > society like the WW this seems unlikely. Maybe if Harry had a quiet > chat with Molly - I bet she knows all the gossip. Perhaps the real problem is that they know that Snape's past is dangerous knowledge for Harry, and Dumbledore fears that he may betray Snape unintentionally. In which case of _course_ Harry will find out :) Helps that Harry so far has had not the slightest interest. I agree that Mater and Pater Weasley know a darn sight more than they've already given away; Molly's fit of the vapours has more behind it. > Sirius claimed Snape had a greater knowledge of dark arts at 11 than > most of the sixth year. Who taught him and how? From what we know > Snape wouldn't get a wand until he received his Hogwarts letter and > he seems pretty contemptuous of 'wand-waving' anyway. So unless he > showed a precocious proclivity for arcane culinary arts I don't see how > he would have learned that much that early. Though he'd make up for > it later on the post-grad "Murder and Mayhem for Aspirant DEs" course. > No; I suspect casual hyperbole on Sirius' part. But ask yourself who taught Snape the talent to keep his thoughts to himself, that's been bothering me since it could indicate that he's a _triple_ agent. What was it about a youthful humiliation that was necessary enough to remove and yet be unable to look at objectively? Makes the pensieve less useful, particularly to one who appears to pride himself on strength of mind/will. Maybe the pressure's just getting to him. There's a whole bunch of people we just don't know enough about anyway, from Harry's parents, Neville's, Ron's and even Hermione's. If JKR is determined to stay on the nurture side of the argument (we are our own choices), then it's difficult to understand any of her characters unless we know their history. BTW, I don't subscribe to the notion that Ron is going to "fall" or oppose Harry in any way. To misquote Wilde: to lose one Weasley to the Dark Side is unfortunate; to lose two looks like carelessness. Percy is enough of a problem, though Ron may be Harry-bait at some stage. Well *that* was a good vent :) ewe2 -- Information wants to be anthropomorphized. From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 12:45:36 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:45:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's Backslide/under-age magic (was Re: Welcome!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "kneasy" wrote: > Sirius claimed Snape had a greater knowledge of dark arts at 11 than > most of the sixth year. Who taught him and how? From what we know > Snape wouldn't get a wand until he received his Hogwarts letter and > he seems pretty contemptuous of 'wand-waving' anyway. So unless he > showed a precocious proclivity for arcane culinary arts I don't see how he would have learned that much that early. Though he'd make up for it later on the post-grad "Murder and Mayhem for Aspirant DEs" course. > No; I suspect casual hyperbole on Sirius' part. > > Kneasy Well, JKR is pretty casual herself about the rules for under-age magic it seems to me. Look at Gred & Forge turning Ron's teddy into a spider - sounds like pretty advanced transfiguration, and (I assume) wand-less magic by five year-olds, and they may have nicked a wand to do it. Molly and Arthur could have received a howler for it, I suppose. But then there is Hermione practising spells before she went to Hogwarts, and the Weasley boys didn't get MoM howlers after rescuing Harry. And Ginny, flying on her brothers' broomsticks without permission since the age of six? And then there is Harry himself, on one hand releasing snakes from zoos and finding himself on school roofs, and hearing nothing from the MoM, then all hell is suddenly let loose when a house elf explodes a cake? And all of that is wandless magic. Surprised your suspicious mind don't begin to sniff a rat .. If Snape's father was a DE, and Snape grew up during Voldie's first rise to power, perhaps his family treated the MoM 'rules' with impunity anyway, much like the Malfoys continue to do today? Besides, potions are a kind of arcane culinary art it seems - as you say, not requiring 'wand-waving'. Maybe they are harder for the MoM to detect - their so-called system would seem to be a bit primitive anyway, if they can't even tell if it is Harry or Dobby doing the magic at Privet Drive. And surely, wouldn't Sirius be in a good position to evaluate Snape's knowledge of the Dark Arts, given the Black family's interest in same? Carolyn Thinking the old timers here are probably beginning to regret being so generous with their invitations.. From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 13:27:02 2004 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:27:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's Backslide (was Re: Welcome!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > wrote: > > I'll never believe Smarmy!Snape. The only alternative that leaves, > > though, is that he was genuinely glad to see her back and nearly > > herself again. I'm not a Snape/McGonagall SHIPper, but I do think > she > > is the closest thing he has to a friend. In OoP she says she'd been > > teaching at Hogwarts for 39 years; she must have taught Snape. > > Carolyn: > Ah, no...there is much more to it than that, and no SHIPPY nonsense, > either (at least between Minerva and Severus). Indeed, she must have > taught Snape, in fact, known him man and boy, but I think the point > is she was also at school with Tom Riddle. I think McGonagall > understands why Snape became a DE better than anyone, because she > also understands where Tom Riddle came from and why he became Lord > Voldemort - she understands the attraction only too well. > > I also think Dumbledore only trusts her as much as he trusts Snape - > that there are reasons why he knows he can expect loyalty from both, > but they are rather enmeshed in back history, not in any gush of > sentiment. [...] I think she may have done > some stupid things, maybe hung around with Tom's teenage friends > before and after he disappeared, maybe teetered on the brink of > something worse. > > I think it took Dumbledore, with his superior powers to Tom, to bring > her back from a dangerous path, and it's her shameful secret. Like > many other teachers at Hogwarts, he found her a place there to keep > her safe. So, she understands the whole process Snape has been > through. It is also possible that she was at school with Snape's > parents, and perhaps understands the bitterness of his home life, and > was friends with his mother. Annemehr: All right, then -- Snape and McGonagall are friends, *and* there's more to it. One thing though, it doesn't seem as though Dumbledore could have found McGonagall a place at Hogwarts since she began teaching there in 1956, but Dumbledore didn't become Headmaster until the early '70s (from the Lexicon timeline, based on McG's "inspection" in OoP and Lupin's comment about not thinking he could go to Hogwarts until DD became Headmaster). Of course, that doesn't preclude him "rescuing" her from Riddle's influence. Still, there's ample room to speculate that Dumbledore knows something about McGonagall, and it has often been noted that he seems to send her out of the room at the end of GoF before really getting down to business, as if to keep certain things from her. If you're right about her getting mixed up with Tom Riddle back in the day, then for it to be significant she must have gone pretty far. After all, Tom was Head Boy, had "always been able to charm the people he needed," and many, if not most, people must have been taken in by him to some extent. McGonagall was not mentioned as being in the original Order. I looked up the scene where Moody shows Harry the photograph again, though, and I'm not sure everyone in it was even named. The episode ends abruptly with Moody pointing out Harry's parents and Wormtail -- was that because they were indeed the last ones left, or because Harry didn't want to see any more and Moody didn't want to show any more? In terms of McGonagall knowing better than anyone just what drew Snape to Voldemort and what it may have cost to get away, just how do you think it affected their relationship? In canon, she shows very little actual affection or special regard for Harry until OoP, though truth be told, many of us suspected it. Would a misanthrope like Snape have noticed anything in her beyond the qualities I listed in my original post? Annemehr off to develop a new theory that Caradoc Dearborn is the Heir of Gryffindor, the HBP, the new DADA teacher, and the guy who looks like a lion. Oh, and he's also Harry's Great Aunt, lives up the Pillar of Storge, and knows where Quirrell is. On second thought, somebody's probably posted all this somewhere already... From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 14:19:53 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:19:53 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on HBP Message-ID: Lexicon Steve: > So here's a more general question that I've wondered about. What's up with the "Prince" thing?< We have hints of an obsolete aristocracy, just as we have hints of an obsolete religion--something that used to be important in the past but which most people don't consider relevant nowadays. We have the various titled ghosts and portraits, Voldemort's self-styled "Lord" and the Noble and Ancient House of Black. We have a ton of Arthurian references, probably all familiar to the old hands here. We also have Grimmauld Place. Grimaldi is the family name of the royal house of Monaco, whose sovereign bears the title Prince. The current Prince famously married a commoner. Of course it could all be a snave...(that's Evans, backward.) Pippin From akhillin at akhillin.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 16:14:35 2004 From: akhillin at akhillin.yahoo.invalid (Anita Hillin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:14:35 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Thoughts on HBP References: Message-ID: <002001c4903e$c607f980$91599418@...> Lexicon Steve: > So here's a more general question that I've wondered about. What's up with the "Prince" thing?< Pippin replied: We have hints of an obsolete aristocracy, just as we have hints of an obsolete religion--something that used to be important in the past but which most people don't consider relevant nowadays. akh pipes up: It seems that virtually all the ghosts and older portraits have titles, as well, which implies that aristocracy was the norm centuries ago. Nearly Headless Nick, the Bloody Baron, the Grey Lady (I know, that might be a stretch), and even possibly the Fat Friar, given that younger sons in the aristocracy often were shunted off to the Church. Then we have Sir Cadogan, the Fat Lady (ditto Grey Lady) and the assorted ghosts at the Death Day Party in CoS. I tend to agree with those who support the theory that the Half-Blood Prince may very well be a reference to a character from the past, say, Godric Gryffindor... akh, who ought to be driving to the airport right now Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 18:40:35 2004 From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:40:35 -0000 Subject: There was silence for quite a number of months, then voices Message-ID: "Burglars, he thought ... but a split second later it occurred to him that burglars would keep their voices down, and whoever was moving around in the kitchen was certainly not troubling to do so." *** To be honest, I'm in total awe of the Advance Guard partying in the kitchen. Gee, I've come over all shy... Some of you may be surprised to find that I exist outside the deep archives of HPfGU, to which my contributions were many and either rather insubstantial or wholly administrative. On the other hand, you may be thinking, "Who the hell is this guy and when is he going to start saying something profound about Snape's angst or the Half Blood Prince or Kreacher's inside leg measurement?" I've fallen into disrepair over the last year, so please don't expect any top notch literary analysis or theories decorated with acronyms from me just yet. If at all. I may pipe up when I'm a bit deeper into my second reading of OoP. Magically, Flying Ford Anglia P.S. Oh wow - my intro is the very first message on this board! I don't know why I'm acting surprised. I guess I should update it though. Let's see - I'm now 43 and I've finished reading those books. From boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 19:57:57 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:57:57 -0000 Subject: Intro & Another Wacky Theory Message-ID: boyd: Hello to all, and thank you for the invitation. Special thanks to Carolyn for her thoughtful follow-up. First my vital statistics (feel free to skip those bullets), then a ludicrous--or is it revelatory?--theory. - Boyd Smythe - Dallas, Texas (yeehaw, y'all!) - 35 years old, father of two preschoolers (so as a group member I alternate between active and exhausted) - I'm in the minority in that COS is my favorite. Before kids I read most types of fiction except romance, so I'll say this once: I don't do SHIPs. - I love predictions and theories that make me reexamine my assumptions in the stories. Having said that, my assumptions are that the series is to be taken mostly at face value. Mostly. - I prefer to think of the series as intelligent, purposeful children's books that work on another level for adults. Sort of like the better kids' movies, where the kids love the surface stuff and we adults love the subtler humor and messages. - Hobbies: I have two little kids, so they're my main hobby. Otherwise, I'm a season ticket holder to the Dallas Cowboys and do lots at my church. Now for the much-too-ludicrous-to-be-true theory. Underlying subversive thought: we're seeing good and bad in a starkly black and white way, due to Harry's limited POV, but the real truth is in between...or maybe black and white are reversed. The gist: we'll soon find out that LV is actually the only thing that can _save_ the WW as we know it, and DD is the leader of the side using subterfuge and misinformation to try to destroy magic in the world (sort of Magic Dishwasher on acid, so that it's extra-paranoid and delusional). Those darned muggle-lovers want to make muggles of the whole WW just to end prejudice and magical strife! So of course LV wants to stop them by any means possible. Sure, it's kooky and undoubtedly wrong, but it answers a number of nagging questions: why the penchant for muggle studies at Hogwarts and by OoP'er Mr. Weasley? why do many magical creatures feel uncomfortable siding with the OoP? why did Salazar split with Gryff over racism? why do the most powerful wizards seem to side with LV? What is the thing worse than death? and why does DD want simple, nonmagical socks? If this theory is true, then JKR is clearly writing a parallel to the Bible's story of the fall of man when he ate from the apple of knowledge. The moral dilemmas she is addressing in the series: would any of us give that knowledge back now that we have it? how hard would we fight to keep it? and would we kill those who would reduce us to mere beasts again? If this is how LV sees the current situation, then it's just the apple conundrum restated: if we could take back the eating of the apple, would we? Tough moral dilemma there. Really this is just an extension of the theory that in the end, Harry's choice will be to destroy the magic in the world; it just spins it a bit to see how the WW cognoscenti would react to that possibility and uses it as a driving force for their actions. Oh, and it involves DD on a mission that he has withheld from virtually everyone in the most blatant example of exploitation in recent fiction. Also, we'll all feel completely betrayed and our children will be scarred for life. Yep, this is one of my craziest thoughts yet, and I am darn proud. I think I'll call it DAMN, CRAZED TOME?!? Dumbledore's Actually More Negative , Could Riddle's Angry Zeal Equal Defenses To Overarching Magic Energy ?!? --boyd I now return you to your regularly scheduled, less subversive messages From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 20:03:24 2004 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:03:24 -0000 Subject: Welcomes & Theories Message-ID: Greetings All, Welcome to our newest members. I see you've made yourselves right at home here (it's really nice to read all these messages & be able to keep up with them!). Unfortunately, the only theories I've come up with lately have to do with the sudden spate of hurricanes/tropical storms we've had this season. We're battening down the hatches here in Charleston, hoping that we don't have too much damage from Frances (on top of the damage from Gaston). Parker (waving hi to all the folks she remembers from HPfGU) From kcawte at slytherinspirit.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 20:58:32 2004 From: kcawte at slytherinspirit.yahoo.invalid (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:58:32 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Welcomes & Theories References: Message-ID: <002f01c49066$7100ac70$69206bd5@kathryn> Hi, thanks for the invite, and all that stuff everyone else has been saying. I'm on holiday at the moment (not that I've gone anywhere but that's beside the point) and so have even *less* time than usual. *sigh* So a really, really quick intro from me and then I'll probably vanish back into the woodwork for a couple of weeks (unless someone says something I have to add my twopenn'orth too - and I have come close on the Snape discussion). Name - Kathryn Age - 28 Location - UK Favourite Potter topics - Snape. OK there are others but Snape's my favourite (and yes I do know the difference between Snape and Alan Rickman - you know if the reason people love Snape is because of the actor why aren't there hundreds of Sheriff of Nottingham groupies running around, or whatsisname Gruber from Die Hard?) Also I love discussing WW politics and history - I love *reading* all the literary stuff about themes and things but don't really contribute as it soon ends up going over my head, but discuss the possible political structure of the WW or the hows and whys of the Slytherin/Gryffindor split and I'm *there*! Other stuff - I'm a history student who has sadly been forced into the real world upon graduation and is now trying desperately to escape back into academia. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_ings at s_ings.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 1 22:28:13 2004 From: s_ings at s_ings.yahoo.invalid (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Welcome! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040901222813.94295.qmail@...> *waves from the depths of the smoking corner of the room, realising the tables of goodies is probably more appealing than the smoking corner* I don't have any pearls of wisdom to add to the current discussion, am just dropping by to say hello to all the wonderful new people. :-D Like Neil, I have an intro around here, buried down at post #69, that could stand to be updated. I no longer work at a theatre, as in their wisdom they decided to replace me with someone younger that could be paid less. Their loss, though I really did like the job. Am also older now (45) and will definitely admit to middle-age. Husband and daughter are a year older, daughter leaving Sunday to start her second year of college. Students loans supplied by grandparents, which is good thing, as her parents are broke. Purr C. is now a large cat and has given up interest in computer cords in exchange for rolling in glitter when the opportunity arises and attempting to roll crystal vases off the wall unit. He has been joined by a wee female kitty companion in which he holds no interest except to chase her around the house. This is a good thing, I think. Decrepit house is still under renovations and likely will be until we die. Here's hoping the caulking and trim around the new living room windows are done *before* the temperatures get to -40! Have been feeding HP obsession with acquiring of more things, much to Andy's dismay. I am also pleased to have added OoP in Portugese to my collection, signed by translator. Have also added much Lego, which I must hide in the cabinet to keep kitties from enjoying it. Oh, yes, and there was this thing about organising a Harry Potter conference, which exhausted me thoroughly, was a lot of fun and made me question my sanity many times. Those of you who know me already question my sanity, so no surprise there! Sheryll, back to vain attempt to empty inbox ===== Convention Alley rocked! Were *you* there? http://www.conventionalley.org/ http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/ http://www.cafeshops.com/conalley ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From rynnewrites at rynne_lupin.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 03:36:08 2004 From: rynnewrites at rynne_lupin.yahoo.invalid (Rynne) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:36:08 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Thoughts on HBP In-Reply-To: <6760692085168739463@unknownmsgid> References: <6760692085168739463@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Lexicon Steve: >So here's a more general question that I've wondered about. What's up with >the "Prince" thing? I've never officially "thought" about this, but my feeling is that the Half-Blood Prince is Salazar Slytherin, and now for a variety of reasons that I'm only really thinking about now in order to reply to this *g*. First is that he lived roughly a thousand years ago, when there *were* princes, and many of them. And what I can see is Slytherin being an *illegitimate* prince, born out of wedlock to a (Muggle) king and his (witch) mistress, or something along those lines. This could concievably create his hatred for Muggles--I don't remember as much of my European History class as I should, but I don't think bastards were too well-received at that point in society (or indeed until much, much later), and Muggles could have easily mistreated him and thought it was all right. But it doesn't change the fact that he was of royal blood, hence the title "prince". Now moving on to speculation about who the prince is rather than why he is a prince... In my eyes, Slytherin's own half-bloodedness (is that a word? :p) could cause him to be sympathetic to Tom Riddle's circumstances, and whatever enchantment the Sorting Hat has (my favorite theory is that it's imbued with the essences of the four founders themselves, essences which look into each first year's mind and decide, using their own criteria, which students they want), it could somehow have that sympathy as well, which explains how a half-blooded Tom Riddle could get into the house "claimed" by purebloods. Also, HBP is something that was cut out of CoS and therefore must have at one point been important to the plot of CoS when it was still in draft stage, and you *can't* say that Salazar Slytherin is unimportant to the plot of CoS! And background on why Slytherin thought the way he did wouldn't be as important to CoS itself (what is important is that he thought it), but I believe it could *really* be important in terms of the series, considering how Voldemort seems to idolize Slytherin. And, using the theory of a poster on the main HPfGU list (post 111201, on book titles and their significance), who poses that every other book has a title the subject of which is hostile towards Harry in some way, HBP could uphold this theory if Slytherin was the HBP, as Voldemort is using Slytherin's name in part to further his agenda against Muggles, etc. *cough* So there's my theory on why Slytherin could easily be the HBP and why it's feasible he's a prince. I think this is the very first time I've actually posted a theory on any list... --Rynne -- Let's go hand in hand, not one before another. --William Shakespeare, Comedy of Errors http://rynne.livejournal.com From adanabbett at adanabbett.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 04:37:22 2004 From: adanabbett at adanabbett.yahoo.invalid (Adan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 04:37:22 -0000 Subject: Hey ya Message-ID: Here y'all were so nice to invite me and I show my thanks by not replying? Rudeness unbefitting my southern belle status. I am now anxiously awaiting the arrival of pearl bedecked lunching ladies to take away my recipe for iced tea and my autographed photo of Martha. The shame. Please don't tell my mother. ***Name: ***Nicknames/IDs: Adan ***Age: 34 ***Family: Weird, with a tendency towards snarkiness. It *does* run in the family. Okay. Maybe not what you meant. It's me, my sister and my boy. Well, sometimes. The boy lives with his father for the much better school district, but the upshot is that I don't have to argue with him daily regarding homework. It almost, though not really, makes up for the separation. One cat: Zelda, One sugar glider: Sugar (yes, the boy was quite clever with that, no?) ***Home Currently outside of San Antonio, TX, but hopefully INSIDE by the new year ***Birthday, Place of Birth: 20 January, Marshall MO ***Education/Job/Role in Life etc: Education: Not enough. I left college early to get married. (It seemed like a good idea at the time.) I earned my adequate living as an administrative assistant until the company recently closed. Anyone looking for a non-spanish speaking secretary in the SA area just let me know! I'm cheap. ***Other things we might want to know about you: Other than cheapness and a tendency to rattle on? I love sports, though mostly from the sidelines. I will be entirely ticked off if there is not an NHL season confirmed pretty soon, which thinking of makes me wonder if the local AHL team will have a season if the big clubs don't. I should look into that. I also like watching my boy play golf. I listen to just about all kinds of music and read most kinds of books. On occasion, I like wine and liquor, but not beer, steaks, Italian and Mongolian barbecue. Oh, and moonlight strolls in light rain. ***First contact with Harry Potter: Pushing aside the *very* creepy thoughts my gutter mind brought up, I believe I picked up Sorcerer's Stone just before Chamber was released. I would like to say that I was looking for a book for my son. I was not. It was all me. His liking HP came after. ***Favourite Potter things (books, characters, ships, fics, objets d'Art, general enthusing): Book: Was PoA, but CoS and OOtP are fighting for the top spot right now. It's not a pretty sight. Characters: Snape (oh, hush!), Forge, the Trio, Ginny, Neville and the movies' Lucius (he's just so pretty) Ships: Ginny/Harry, Hermione/Ron and sometimes, when the mood is right, Remus/Sirius ***Extent of Potter obsession: Obvious, but fairly controlled. I'm here, aren't I? We have two sets of books (one for me, one for the boy - guess sharing isn't our strong point), most of another set of the British version, and all books on CD(Dale). And the movies. And the video games. And a son who changed glasses because he got tired of hearing how he looked like Harry - especialy after one fall when said glasses gave him a nasty jagged scar between his brows. Thankfully, it's not noticable usually. ***Current/recent reading: Current: American Gods- Neil Gaiman. Recent: The War of Don Emmanuel's Nether Parts- Louis De Berniere; Something Rotten- Jasper Fforde; Practical Demonkeeping, Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove and Bloodsucking Fiends- Christopher Moore; Mythago Wood - Robert Holdstock; The Moonstone- Wilkie Collins; Ella Minnow Pea- Mark Dunn; Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony- Callaso; The Mythic Life and The Rule of Four by I-Can't-Remember (though not the same I-C-R); The Meaning of It All- Richard Feynman; interspersed with HP. Amazing how much one can read when you don't have some silly job getting in the way. ***Current/recent listening: Honestly? Robbie Williams, Modest Mouse, Snow Patrol, Jamie Cullum and Frank Sinatra. Yeah. ***Current/recent viewing: TV: None, really. I hate summer tv, but keep up to date thanks to the lovelies at Television Without Pity. I will tune back in in time for Lost, 24 and Alias. Others may slip in against my will. Last movie: Yu-Gi-Oh. Not my choice. I was mucho surprised but pleased to have received the invite as I haven't been the most prolific or regular of posters, but I really look forward to reading everyone that's come here before me and hope fervently that I can find something to add here and there. Adan, shutting up now, to the relief of everyone From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 11:39:21 2004 From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:39:21 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Thoughts on HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Lexicon Steve: > >So here's a more general question that I've wondered about. > What's up > >with the "Prince" thing? > Something someone said jogged my memory. Rowling said in an interview with a Vancouver newspaper that people don't ask about her Christian faith very much, which is a good thing or else they would be able to figure out how the stories end. With that context, the Half-Blood Prince could be a Christ figure, not just in the Messianic sense that someone mentioned, but in the melding of two worlds sense. Jesus, in Christian belief, as both God and man. So the Half-Blood Prince would be a legendary figure, someone who is held in reverence by the Wizarding community, someone who will mend a breach which is intrinsic to the world as we know it. That scenario would fit what Rowling said in that interview. As I write that, the possible connections to the story and to Rowling's own philosophy just tumble through my head. - the Sorting Hat pleading for unity - the emphasis on acceptance and understanding with Kreacher - the whole Fountain and it's twisted meaning - the fact that CS, of all the books, harkened back to the "time of legend," the founding of Hogwarts - Arthurian overtones: Albus/Albion, the baby king hidden away to grow up in safety, etc And I could go on and on. Arthur is supposed to return some day to reunify Britain under his enlightened rule, isn't he? [Okay, I need someone to write an essay on the Arthurian connection to Potter. Any takers?] It also makes sense to me that the titular character will be someone new, not an existing character whose Secret Identity is suddenly revealed. I think it's possible that someone in the current pantheon of characters will be connected to that legend somehow, and that it may not be Harry who is the connection, but I don't think the HBP himself will be, say, Seamus or Hagrid. Steve Looking eagerly for that essay From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 12:22:35 2004 From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 12:22:35 -0000 Subject: Diary!Tom and Voldemort Message-ID: Hi, First, welcome all new ancients! Wonderful to see this list reviving - may it long last! Looking in Rowling's site, I found this FAQ, which I somehow managed to miss before: ----------- In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary? I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably. ------------ Has this been discussed on the main list? I don't remember, but I may have missed the thread. In any case, I find it intriguing, especially in light of JKR's "central and crucial question" of how Voldemort survived and, in general, the question of Voldemort's nature. Any speculations from you guys? Naama From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 15:00:17 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 01:00:17 +1000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Thoughts on HBP In-Reply-To: <200409021140.i82BevOh015444@...> References: <200409021140.i82BevOh015444@...> Message-ID: <20040902150017.GA30441@...> On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 07:39:21AM -0400, Steve Vander Ark wrote: > As I write that, the possible connections to the story and to Rowling's own > philosophy just tumble through my head. > > - the Sorting Hat pleading for unity > - the emphasis on acceptance and understanding with Kreacher > - the whole Fountain and it's twisted meaning > - the fact that CS, of all the books, harkened back to the "time of legend," > the founding of Hogwarts > - Arthurian overtones: Albus/Albion, the baby king hidden away to grow up in > safety, etc > And I could go on and on. Arthur is supposed to return some day to reunify > Britain under his enlightened rule, isn't he? > [Okay, I need someone to write an essay on the Arthurian connection to > Potter. Any takers?] > > Steve > Looking eagerly for that essay Tricky. What particular Arthurian connection are we looking for? There are so _many_ to choose from! Much of what I've gleaned below was with the help of Joseph Campbell's book, Creative Mythology which is as much concerned with the Arthurian legends as with everything James Joyce wrote. Do we go with the 'pre-ordained future' pagan tale of the guidance of young Arthur (Harry) by Merlin (Dumbledore) towards the future of a One True King? Avalon is a name for the Land of Youth; in Celtic myth it is an island of elf women (the Lady of the Lake), to which Arthur is borne by mysterious women, to be healed by the elven women and return in the future. To the Celts, this would be more than the usual reincarnation, a mark of special favour. This symbology was later repeated in the Tristan and Isolt romance, in which the theme of the infant exile and return was also repeated. Or perhaps the symbology is of the Fisher King. This is even more enticing, since he is thought to partly symbolize Orpheus/Neptune, who has the silver of the fish, and his role is controller of the _tides of the moon_. The moon is in this context also a symbol of immortality (a cup forever emptied and refilled). But more than that, there are TWO kings, the Maimed One and the Old One, between which the Grail passes, much like the phases of the moon. In fact the Maimed One's wound is most painful at the waning of the moon. So there is also here the symbolism of the Wheel of Life, a cycle from which the Maimed One cannot break without outside health. Consider the basic problem of the Grail legend: A pure knight must find the Castle of the Grail and ask a specific question which will relieve the Maimed One and revitalize the land. He subsequently would become the Grail's keeper, but if he asks the _wrong_ question, everything disappears and he has to start searching all over again. So we have a cycle to be broken, and it's not just anyone who can ask the question. It's like changing the cycle between life and death. Tristan, too, has a wound that will not heal and its pain also waxes and wanes. Not to be omitted is the alchemical connection of the Escherbach version of the Grail legend: the Philosopher's Stone. "By the power of that stone, the phoenix burns and becomes ashes, but the ashes restore it speedily to life" he says, and goes on to give the immortal properties of the Grail. It was also known as dragon or serpent and perhaps vaguely egg-shaped (at least according to Jung, who wrote screeds about the symbology of alchemy, and whose wife Emma wrote an interesting book about the Grail legend which I'm still reading). But to continue: Tristan was wounded by a lance (like Christ) and somehow this romance got subsumed into later Arthurian legend as the particular wound that the Maimed One has. Galahad turns up as either the grandson of the Maimed One himself, or of the line of Joseph of Aramethea, or Sir Lancelot (the Malory version), depending on who you believe, but at all accounts the Pure Knight. According to Malory, Galahad is the one who draws the Sword from the Stone, and also sits in a seat foretold for him on the feast of Pentecost, after which the Grail appears under a veil to all, and Galahad vows to find it. Things get a lot more fanciful from there on, with Galahad and Perceval taken up into heaven and Sir Bors returns to tell the tale. But in the original Parzival, his brother Feirefiz could not see the Grail until he had been baptized. Parzival heals the Maimed One by asking 'Uncle, what ails thee?' And for now I'll leave this investigation there. Hopefully that's given someone a lead to go further than I. -- Unix is very user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are. From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 16:30:32 2004 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 16:30:32 -0000 Subject: Silly Taglines and the Perils of Theorising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr > off to develop a new theory that Caradoc Dearborn is the Heir of > Gryffindor, the HBP, the new DADA teacher, and the guy who looks like > a lion. Oh, and he's also Harry's Great Aunt, lives up the Pillar of > Storge, and knows where Quirrell is. On second thought, somebody's > probably posted all this somewhere already... Annemehr now: Unfortunately, this can be taken as a sarcastic comment on Carolyn's McGonagall ideas, which was not my intent at all, since I enjoyed her post and actually think there's a very good chance that she's right. Sorry, Carolyn! Also, my apologies to CV if anyone thought I was mocking her Quirrell theory, which she knows from the Hogs_Head is one I am very interested in (though sadly, I do think JKR actually means him to be dead). What I was thinking of when I wrote that is a kind of feeling of futility in trying to predict what may be coming next. It's a great contrast to the period between GoF and OoP which was a very fertile time for many well-thought-out and interesting theories, debated with sharp-eyed attention to canon. But now here we are with only two books to go, and after OoP I don't have much of a feeling at all about the direction JKR is headed with this. When looking up Moody's photo of the old Order for my last post, and noticing again that nobody knows what happened to Caradoc Dearborn, the idea really did cross my mind that he was the HBP and/or the lion-looking man. Then, sadly, I thought that that had just as much (or little) chance of being the case as so many of the other theories I've seen posted -- and simply because we have nothing to go by! Most likely, Dearborn's mysterious disappearance is nothing more than JKR injecting a little variety into her characters' demises, and the man himself is basically another Mark Evans (thus the references to her answer to the Evans FAQ from her site). So all of this came out in exaggerated form in a silly tagline -- but, you know, I really do miss the theorising, now that I've thought about it. These days, my most serious posts seem to be all about Theme and Characterisation. But I want to discuss the Story, too! Ah, well. IIRC, at the Edinburgh book festival, JKR said it's no longer time for hints and clues -- the last two books will be about answers. I just hope she saves most of them for book 7, so we can have some fun while we wait for it! Annemehr who should probably be on moderated status :P From boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 17:07:27 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:07:27 -0000 Subject: DAMN, CRAZED TOME Canon: DD/MD, Locked Room & The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: boyd: Yesterday I posted the most ridiculously crazy theory in my history, but I think there are kernels of truth in there, so I'm restating it in a more serious way. Note: assumes aspects of MD and inclides new discussions of socks, the Locked Room in the MoM, and an end-game analysis. A brief synopsis of DAMN, CRAZED TOME?!?: DD's true goal is far broader than the defeat of LV; he wants nothing less than to try to eliminate magic from the world. This begs three questions that I shall attempt to answer with canon. 1) Is there any proof that DD wants to eliminate magic? Yes. - Dumbledore sees himself "holding a pair of thick woollen socks" in the mirror of Erised (SS/PS). Very non-magical vision, that. Especially when paired with the following. - He says "One can never have enough socks...Another Christmas has come and gone and I didn't get a single pair. People will insist on giving me books." (SS/PS) Since every book in the WW that we've seen relates in some way to magic, we can perhaps paraphrase this quote thus, "I prefer non-magic comforts to magic." - Further, these socks represent freedom in HP, thanks to Dobby whom we see "holding up Harry's disgusting, slimy sock and looking at it as though it were a priceless treasure" in CoS. - So socks represent freedom and non-magic, or is it freedom *from* magic? When Dobby is given a sock, doesn't that break the magic binding of elf to wizard, thus substituting freedom for magic? I think JKR is trying to tell us something more here that has been very hard to discern. - He destroys the Stone in PS/SS, a powerful magic of its own. - When he tells Harry, "it is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities," isn't he saying that Harry's choices are more important than his magic? Just a roundabout way of saying that magic is not very important. - In PS/SS, DD tells Harry "the trouble is, humans do have a knack of choosing precisely those things that are worst for them." He mentions money and life specifically, because he's talking about the Stone, but his actions against would-be evil lords (Grindlewald in 1945 and LV ongoing) make it clear that he feels the same about magical power. - Q: Whom does he choose to teach his students DADA? A: Individuals who will teach the students to mistrust magic and authority. Each has betrayed the kids in some way, although Lupin's betrayal is simply that he is dangerous magic incarnate, not his choice. Among the other teachers, it seems that DD has collected individuals based more on loyalty to him and his cause than magical ability (notice how inept Trelawney and Hagrid are, for example). Seems quite a dismissive act for the headmaster of a school of magic, doesn't it? - Also, we have all noted just how little useful magic seems to be taught in Hogwarts. In particular, DD seems not to think Harry needs reasonable training in magic, even assigning the dreadfully ill-suited Snape to "teach" him Occlumens. Perhaps this is intentional on DD's part--he does not see salvation for Harry or the other students in magic. This may be why we see so many classes that do not teach magic: Quiddich/riding brooms, History of Magic, Hagrid's classes on magical beasts, and Divination, which has been up to this point apparently worthless to its students. - Despite his powers, he has done little to advance the magical capabilities of the WW since leaving Flamel and finding the 12 uses for dragon's blood. He did not choose to work at the MoM as an auror or Unspeakable, and in fact turned down an offer to be its Minister. (SS/PS and OoP) 2) Why would the most powerful magician of his generation want to eliminate magic? Now we get to the real meat of my argument. Listen to what these quotes imply about magic and wizards in HP. - "Not a wizard, eh? Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?" (PS/SS) - "He was tipped for the next Minister of Magic. He's a great wizard, Barty Crouch [Sr.], powerfully magical -- and power-hungry." (Hagrid in GoF) - "If Filch's trying to learn magic from a Kwikspell course, I reckon he must be a Squib. It would explain a lot. Like why he hates students so much. He's bitter." (Ron in CoS) - "It's about the most insulting thing he could think of....Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born -- you know, non-magic parents." (Ron in CoS) - "It's a disgusting thing to call someone. Dirty blood, see." (Ron in CoS) - "I am calling you a Muggle. It means that you are not a wizard. ... But I am not a man, Muggle. I am much, much more than a man...." (LV in GoF) - "We don't send people to Azkaban just for blowing up their aunts!" (Fudge in PoA) Note that this aunt is a muggle. - "We are all familiar with the extremists who campaign for the classification of Muggles as 'beasts'," writes Newt Scamander (FB xiii). Taken together, these demonstrate that to many wizards, Muggles are not just different; they are *inferior*. They study them like we study beasts; they discuss them condescendingly. They treat wizards who consort with Muggles badly (Mr. Weasley), and they treat the offspring of Muggles or Muggle-Wizard unions even worse. Why? It's not just about the blood, or squibs like Filch would be treated better. It's clearly that they feel the magic sets them apart from mere Muggles. So if Dumbledore wants to eliminate racism, cruelty to Muggles, and all related prejudice from the WW, then there is just one solution: eliminate magic. But, you say, what about all the good that magic does? Well, show me what good magic does that can't be done with good old Muggle hard work. Sure, cleaning houses with the flick of a wand is nice, but that benefit pales in comparison to the constant danger of evil lords, Muggle-bashing, pure-bloodist divisiveness and the resulting constant threat of civil war within the WW. Not to mention the constant danger from many magical creatures, objects and so forth. DD sees all of this and chooses the less-travelled path: eliminate magic. 3) How could one eliminate magic from the world? - "...and that's Bode and Croaker...they're Unspeakables...[f]rom the Department of Mysteries, top secret, no idea what they get up to..." (Arthur Weasley in GoF) - The locked door in the MoM melts Harry's *magic* knife. I posit that behind the locked door in the MoM is not some squishy aspect of Love (yuck), but the Source of Magic itself. Why else would the magic knife have instantly melted? What else would 'Unspeakables' work on that is so top secret? And what is the source of Harry's power against LV? Yes, the scar on Harry's forehead is a piece of this Source, or perhaps a direct link to it. Unfortunately, because LV is now linked to it, as well, thanks to the failed AK and Lily's protection, the only way to ultimately destroy LV is to destroy the Source of Magic itself. Perhaps by throwing it into the Veil, perhaps by Harry and his link to the Source stepping through the Veil. The important thing is that, in the end, Harry and others will have to decide whether saving the world from LV is worth the end of Magic. So, tell me, am I completely nutters here, or is this at least a possibility? --boyd hoping he's seen as crazy-like-a-fox, not should-be-locked-up-crazy From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 21:17:45 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (kneasy) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 21:17:45 -0000 Subject: DAMN, CRAZED TOME Canon: DD/MD, Locked Room & The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > boyd: > > Yesterday I posted the most ridiculously crazy theory in my history, > but I think there are kernels of truth in there, so I'm restating it > in a more serious way. Note: assumes aspects of MD and inclides > new discussions of socks, the Locked Room in the MoM, and an end-game > analysis. > > A brief synopsis of DAMN, CRAZED TOME?!?: DD's true goal is far > broader than the defeat of LV; he wants nothing less than to try to > eliminate magic from the world. > > > I posit that behind the locked door in the MoM is not some squishy > aspect of Love (yuck), but the Source of Magic itself. Why else would > the magic knife have instantly melted? What else would 'Unspeakables' > work on that is so top secret? And what is the source of Harry's power > against LV? > > Yes, the scar on Harry's forehead is a piece of this Source, or > perhaps a direct link to it. Unfortunately, because LV is now linked > to it, as well, thanks to the failed AK and Lily's protection, the > only way to ultimately destroy LV is to destroy the Source of Magic > itself. Perhaps by throwing it into the Veil, perhaps by Harry and his > link to the Source stepping through the Veil. > > The important thing is that, in the end, Harry and others will have to > decide whether saving the world from LV is worth the end of Magic. > > So, tell me, am I completely nutters here, or is this at least a > possibility? > Well, the books are written by an author who doesn't believe in magic, so the possibility of an end to magic can't be totally discounted. Tell me - are you suggesting *all* magic, or just the human variety? (I'm getting flashbacks to an old Larry Niven book "And the Magic Goes Away" - finite amount of magic in the world, and it gets used up. And if you're nuts, then so am I (heartfelt murmurs of agreement in the background) since I listed it as one of the possible plot resolution devices a couple of times. Never bothered to collect canon evidence to support the idea, though - just threw it in as an off-the-wall suggestion. Interesting. Let's think about wizarding magic for a moment. In the WW only humans are allowed to have wands, and without wands human magic is weaker, unfocussed. Wands provide humans with magical status comparable with other, more naturally magical creatures. But other magical creatures, if they also had wands, might be even more impressive. That Law was obviously passed for a reason. Self-protection, probably. Wizards seem to allocate status among themselves according to magical ability (a subject Carolyn has posted a couple of major pieces on). But wands, a key factor in demonstrating this power, all contain cores obtained from non-human magical sources. So - it can be posited that humans, of and by themselves, are only weakly magical; they derive most of their magical ability from utilising implements that already contain magic. Deprive a wizard of his wand and he's not up to much; give him one and he is. GoF - the QWC - a small boy prodding a slug with his fathers wand. Totally untrained but the magic works. Is it the boy - or the wand? What would happen if a Muggle got hold of a wand? Yes, we know that each wizard gets better results from specific wands, but that doesn't mean no other would work - both Ron and Neville have spent long periods using some-one else's wands. Hogwarts main function seems to consist of teaching youngsters how to control a wand, (strange that no other magical creature needs text-books) and any wand will do at a pinch. So would a Muggle get a result too? Gawd; all sorts of questions re: the fons et origo of wizards start to surface. Which came first - the wizard or the wand? Neolithic times - pointing the bone; shamans dressed as beasts - proto-animagi? Or did it all start in 382 BC? How this lot fits in with the Locked Room I've no idea - but yes, I'll go along with the idea that it might be possible to revert wizards to Muggledom. Worth thinking about. Thank you. I'll brood on it some more. Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 2 22:06:18 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:06:18 -0000 Subject: Silly Taglines and the Perils of Theorising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: Unfortunately, this can be taken as a sarcastic comment on Carolyn's McGonagall ideas, which was not my intent at all, since I enjoyed her post and actually think there's a very good chance that she's right. Sorry, Carolyn! >>What I was thinking of when I wrote that is a kind of feeling of futility in trying to predict what may be coming next. It's a great contrast to the period between GoF and OoP which was a very fertile time for many well-thought-out and interesting theories, debated with sharp-eyed attention to canon. But now here we are with only two books to go, and after OoP I don't have much of a feeling at all about the direction JKR is headed with this. >>>but, you know, I really do miss the theorising, now that I've thought about it. These days, my most serious posts seem to be all about Theme and Characterisation. But I want to discuss the Story, too! Carolyn: No,no.. no offence taken, I do assure you ! It is really very relevant to ask what we think we are doing spinning these endless theories. Coincidentally, this evening I had an email from someone else, who, although she isn't a member of this group, I know will not mind me quoting it here, as it is relevant: 'I really *cannot* take all the Deep Thought and convoluted theorizing, especially since every time JKR weighs in on the topic, she mocks the theories mercilessly. These really *are* children's books; everything always turns out simpler than we think it is, and adolescent angst from the adult perspective is way tiresome.' 'Second, while we were geeking out online speculating on the reason for the delay in Book 5, Herself was out having a life. She dated, found a man, got married and had a baby. And did we learn our lesson? Hell, no. We're obsessing about Snape and James and hyphens, and JKR is getting laid. [Now] The woman is pregnant again.' Some of you might be following the current 'Conspiracies & re- assessment' thread started by Kneasy (111642) which addresses some of the same themes, (though naturally from a more briskly upbeat POV on Kneasy's part, if not other contributors ). However, up to a point, I agree with Anne that there seems to have been a sea-change in the nature of speculation this time round, compared to the feverish anticipation pre-OOP. I have just read part of the archives for this group, and it was really rather nice to revisit that fantastic excitement and realise I was definitely not alone at the time. My impression now though is that the level of expectation is much more under control, and this is not just because we are only two books from The End. There seem to be three main causes: - the plot options are closing down much faster than they need to due to the way JKR is choosing to use her website - something of a consensus is emerging about where she is going with the story (few bangs; big moral, maybe even religious theme as the answer to it all) - a niggling worry that she just might not be a good enough writer to deliver what are supposed to be two even deeper, more complex books All this could make for a somewhat dull outlook IMO, but the thing that keeps many of us dyed-in-the-wool theorists going is that there still seem to be so many layers of meaning that can be extracted from the plot and the characters. Even more intriguingly (and amusingly), that JKR may have had no intention of putting this complexity there, and be pretty irritated that such theories can be supported convincingly from canon [so far]. Some people are so worried about this continuing 'bad behaviour' from the incurably suspicious that they have even attempted to draw up various rules to try and control speculation [111845, 111816]. I would be interested to know if people in this group thought it was high time theorising was reined in, or whether they thought the attempt sublimely ridiculous? Carolyn Who would like to award Boyd a catalogue group gold star for re- hashing old posts to such splendid effect. As he knows, my current favourite post from the archives is the The Theory of Socks, read it here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/17156 but his new theory takes it to new heights. BTW, all those of you worrying about who is the HBP, he'll be the one one wearing the purple socks - ignore any of her flim flam at the beginning of Book 6, just look at their feet. You heard it here first. From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Fri Sep 3 00:57:32 2004 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 00:57:32 -0000 Subject: Intro Profile (Kelley's!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley" wrote: > Side comment: I grew up on Bradbury, too; Randy, I think you're the > only other Bradbury fan I've ever met! Still have a great fondness > for his stuff, as well, and reread much of it every now and then > (same thing with Vonnegut)... Me, too! Well, okay, I admit I haven't read all his stuff (so many books...etc.). But _Something Wicked This Way Comes_ is one of my all-time favorite books. Shame I lost it in my house somewhere (about the time I had kids); I'd really like to reread that -- though I probably won't be *able* to anymore without a certain Toad Chorus running in my head... Annemehr From kkearney at corinthum.yahoo.invalid Fri Sep 3 02:44:58 2004 From: kkearney at corinthum.yahoo.invalid (corinthum) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:44:58 -0000 Subject: Had enough of intros yet? Message-ID: Hello all. Very nice to see so many of you aren't lost forever in the HPFGU archives, as I feared. And I look forward to the same great conversation at a more reasonable pace. So, on to the intro... ***Name: Kelly ***Nicknames/IDs: Corinth ***Age: 23 ***Family: Mom, dad, three brothers, and a sister. Single (in the non-married sense). Cat Jeze who I consider a companion rather than family member. ***Home Mississippi. I think I can say that now without cringing. Really, the coast isn't at all like my preconceived stereotype, although I'm a bit scared to travel north of I-10 for fear of finding Deliverance-esque areas. ***Birthday, Place of Birth: June 29, Baltimore, Maryland ***Education/Job/Role in Life etc: BS in marine science and biology. Now a physical scientist for the Navy. I'm actually quite enjoying my foray into the working world, although I think I'll be returning to my native academia in a few years. ***First contact with Harry Potter: I stole my brother's copy of Sorcerer's Stone while home from college my freshman year. At the time, the books hadn't gotten much publicity yet, or at least I hadn't heard much about them. I expected it to be just another light entertainment (I have always loved young adult literature, and with younger brothers there was always something lying around for me to steal), but was immediately hooked. I can't remember how soon I after I read CoS and PoA, but my obsession grew pretty rapidly. ***Favourite Potter things (books, characters, ships, fics, objets d'Art, general enthusing): Like so many others PoA is my favorite, with GoF and OoP close behind. Favorite characters: Lupin, Harry, Hermione, (although I have no SHIP preferences), Snape. Favorite discussion topics: backstory, character motivations, the science of magic. Didn't care for the first two movies, but was pleasantly surprised by the third. Don't read fanfiction and don't ship, although some shipping conversations can be interesting. ***Extent of Potter obsession: I set up Apache, PHP, mySQL, and a mirror copy of the catalogue database on my laptop so I could continue working on the project while at sea for two months. And once there, realized I had no need of the books for reference. In other words, scarily obsessed (with the books). However, I don't own the movies, games, cards, clothing, or any other memorabilia (except one tiny Hermione figurine, which was a present from a friend). ***Other interests/activities: Languages, conlangs, play trumpet and a little piano and marched for 7 years, ballet, huge sports fan (Orioles, Penguins, Steelers, Ravens, Miami Hurricanes). ***Current/recent reading: Just finished "Wicked" by Gregory Maguire (excellent) and now reading his "Lost". Other recent reading: all of Dan Brown's books (all good except "Digital Fortress", which was horribly predictable), "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein (excellent), "The Red Badge of Courage" (one of my always-meant-to-read-that ship books, which would have been much better if the @#$% editor would have stopped putting in ridiculous footnotes with his ideas on symbolism, none of which I agreed with). ***Current/recent listening: Big broadway fan. Just bought "Wicked", which is rising quickly up my list of favorites (a list topped now and forever by "Les Miserables") ***Current/recent viewing: Lately, Olympics, and some random TLC. May I just take a moment to praise the wonderful people who started TV seasons on DVD, which is a godsend to those stuck on ships with only AFN on a satellite connection that goes out whenever headed east. Got through the second season of "The West Wing" and the first half of the first season of "24". Okay, that concludes all you ever wanted to know about me. Hope to begin posting soon. -Kelly, aka Corinth From drednort at drednort.geo.yahoo.invalid Fri Sep 3 03:03:30 2004 From: drednort at drednort.geo.yahoo.invalid (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 13:03:30 +1000 Subject: Yet another intro In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <41386BA2.1014.6B027D@localhost> And yet another introductory profile now that I have some time to write one. ***Name: Shaun Hately ***Nicknames/IDs: drednort/Dreadnought ***Age: 29 ***Family: Mother and a brother, and a cat. Single. ***Home Frankston, which is a suburb and satellite city of Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Frankston's largest claim to fame is as one of the major settings of the apocalyptic novel, and 1950s film 'On The Beach'. Ava Gardner made the comment that if you were going to make a film about the end of the world, Frankston was the place to do it. Residents of Frankston have long taken a perverse pride in this. ***Birthday, Place of Birth: January 20th 1975. Sydney, Australia. ***Education/Job/Role in Life etc: At university level, have studied both astrophysics and software engineering. Currently working as a public safety analyst for the Australian government, while studying for my Bachelor of Education degree. ***First contact with Harry Potter: I do voluntary mentoring of exceptionally and profoundly gifted children. For various reasons, the Harry Potter books became very popular with such kids even before they started to become famous, and I used to read a lot of comments about them on lists. I thought they were American books, and didn't really expect to see them on bookshelves here. When I did I snapped up a copy just to see what they were like. I found myself really drawn into the story because there were things in my own childhood and schooling which really seemed to connect with what was happening to Harry. ***Favourite Potter things (books, characters, ships, fics, objets d'Art, general enthusing): Pretty happy with the movies. My favourite characters are Hermione, probably followed by Percy (who I hope hasn't turned bad!). Not really into shipping, some interest in fanfic as a concept but haven't read much yet. Really interested in the idea of Hogwarts as a functioning school - I've even mapped the place! Love Harry Potter as a roleplaying game concept - I run a campaign, and also have run Harry Potter RPGs at a Melbourne FRP convention for the last three years. ***Extent of Potter obsession: Mostly just online. I don't buy much, except in connections with my games. But as I said, I have mapped Hogwarts (currently working to update to take into account Order of the Phoenix - slowed a bit due to need to buy some more mapping software), and written a couple of rather long Harry Potter related essays, of little interest to most people. ***Other interests/activities: Studying, working, mentoring gifted kids, writing, mapping, roleplaying, studying. ***Current/recent reading: "A Hat full of Sky" by Terry Pratchett, "Here, My Son" by C.E.W. Bean, assorted viewers guides to Buffy the Vampire Slayer found at an op shop - can't remember titles. ***Current/recent listening: Very rarely listen to music due to a neurological difference that makes it very hard for me to understand. ***Current/recent viewing: Olympics (YAY - Australia, 53rd in the world in population, 4th in the medal count), Australian children's sci fi from the 1990s, which I've just found on video - The Girl from Tomorrow, and Spellbinder. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at ... | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Sat Sep 4 02:53:56 2004 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:53:56 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Yet another intro References: <41386BA2.1014.6B027D@localhost> Message-ID: <00b401c4922b$a55cfc00$5258aacf@...> Shaun Hately has > > a cat. Single. ...The cat will find a kindred soul eventually. What about *you*..? ~Amandageist From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 5 03:25:33 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 03:25:33 -0000 Subject: radio / Snape / childhood magic / obsolete religion? Message-ID: Anita akh wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/761 : << Usually, I'm an NPR junkie, but I have little patience for any political convention coverage, and I'm not a Republican, so I've been avoiding them this week. When NPR is not running conventions or fund drives (that was also this week; what a combination!), I try to catch "This American Life" and "Fresh Air." >> You can listen to Fresh Air archived on-line with NO pledge breaks at http://freshair.npr.org/ and This American Life appears to be archived at http://www.kcrw.org/show/ta and let me recommend to you Studio 360 at http://www.wnyc.org/studio360/archive.html Oh, how I *love* not having to be on-topic! Kneasy wwrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/762 : << Sirius claimed Snape had a greater knowledge of dark arts at 11 than most of the sixth year. Who taught him and how? From what we know Snape wouldn't get a wand until he received his Hogwarts letter and he seems pretty contemptuous of 'wand-waving' anyway. >> Sirius in GoF: "Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was. Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year." >From Dark Arts to Greasy-hair is generally agreed to be a non sequitur, so to me it makes a different that Sirius said more *curses* not more *Dark Arts*, It puts me a little bit in mind of the famous ninety-seven pound weakling who wants to learn ju-jitsu because of the bullies beating him up. In my own private Potterverse, he learned those curses from books in his parents' (or father's) library. He could have "borrowed" a parent's wand, or an old broken wand in the attic, to practise with (was the two year old who "borrowed" Daddy's wand to enlarge a slug named Kevin?). In my own private Potterverse, he studied them because the only time his father ever showed any approval of him at all was when praising him for being precocious at curses. I had been thinking that he was from an old pureblood Dark Arts family, with father and mother both obsessed with Dark Arts and not particularly interested in the child they had produced only out of duty to perserve the family name, but modifying that to an abusive Dark Arts father and an intimidated Muggleborn mother who had been careless with her contraceptive charms isn't a very big change. Carolyn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/764 : << Look at Gred & Forge turning Ron's teddy into a spider - sounds like pretty advanced transfiguration, and (I assume) wand-less magic by five year-olds, and they may have nicked a wand to do it. >> It was Fred, not George, and SURELY it was spontaneous magic, typical of wizarding children when they get emotional, like Harry somehow found himself on the roof of a school building but still does not know how to Apparate. It happened when Ron had broken Fred's toy broomstick, so I'm sure Fred was quite angry at the time. As far as I can tell, the Ministry has no way of tracking children's spontaneous magic. Whether they actually have any way of tracking magic at a particular location (i.e. Privet Drive) and ASSUMING that the only known wizard living there did it, or Mafalda just believes and acts on every malicious tip someone tells her, is another question. << the Weasley boys didn't get MoM howlers after rescuing Harry. And Ginny, flying on her brothers' broomsticks without permission since the age of six? >> I feel that flying a broomstick or even a flying car counts as using a magical artifact rather than as doing magic -- the littlest witches that Harry had yet seen were riding toy brooms that hovered just over the blades of grass. And the twins were careful to use Muggle lockpicks to open Harry's window. Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/766 : << We have hints of an obsolete aristocracy, just as we have hints of an obsolete religion--something that used to be important in the past but which most people don't consider relevant nowadays. >> Hints of an obsolete religion? You mean secular celebrations of Christmas and Easter, and Draco making a crack (which book?) about St Potter, patron saint of Mudbloods? From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 8 19:17:42 2004 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:17:42 -0000 Subject: radio / Snape / childhood magic / obsolete religion? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/766 : > > << We have hints of an obsolete aristocracy, just as we have hints of an obsolete religion--something that used to be important in the past but which most people don't consider relevant nowadays. >> Catlady: > Hints of an obsolete religion? You mean secular celebrations of Christmas and Easter, and Draco making a crack (which book?) about St Potter, patron saint of Mudbloods?< Pippin: "Saint Potter, the Mudblood's friend" is in CoS chapter 12. But I was referring to the Fat Friar, the "group of gloomy nuns" at the Deathday Party, and the "couple of monks" who join Sir Cadogan for a Christmas party in PoA (ch 7). We know now that the ghosts were definitely witches and wizards, and from what I understand the portrait process wouldn't work on non-magical people either. We also have references to religion in the fossilized place names "St. Mungo's" (which dates back to at least 1722) and of course "Kings Cross." The Quidditch Pitch for the World Cup is as large as "fifteen cathedrals", which neatly suggests how sports has replaced religion as the raison d'etre for public gatherings. It all suggests that Christianity was once important to at least some witches and wizards, but doesn't seem to be now. Pippin From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Sat Sep 11 04:41:39 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:41:39 +1000 Subject: Luna or Diana Message-ID: <20040911044139.GA16726@...> So, my favourite new character. Who is she really, and what is she doing? Now I had always thought of Diana as a seperate hunting goddess, but Luna, goddess of the moon, was "borrowed" from Artemis, or Selene of the Greeks, twin sister of Apollo (who is a sun-god). If you think of Greek mythology as a way to describe aspects of reality, then the profusion of gods/goddesses for the same thing like the moon is more understandable. My sources are all confused on the matter - some say Selene represents the full moon, Diana/Luna the crescent moon. Robert Graves in his amazing book 'The White Goddess' believes that Diana and Luna are two faces of the Triple Goddess: Diana, the Earth, Luna the Sky (moon in all phases), and Persephone the Underworld. Each have three phases. Another source says Diana was of the heavens, Luna the earth, and Hecate/Persephone the underworld. All a bit confusing. The important thing to understand is, whatever order they seem to be in, they relate to the three Fates (eg the three witches of Macbeth), the Girl, the Woman, the Hag, and all the variants. Luna is always the central one, so it is in that capacity as the Moon we should view her. In that she also represents the qualities of the astrological sign Cancer (or vice versa if you wish), so she represents all phases too. Hence her apparent qualities and no little mystery. If JKR sees her as twin sister of Apollo (and astrologically Harry is a dark Leo), that is intriguing. The family he never knew he had? His true complement? If he projects as Apollo, what is it in him that she reflects as Luna? As a Leo, Harry is a king, is Luna therefore a queen? Is that to do with the hidden royalty suggested by HBP? Does Luna represent maturity in some way for Harry? Or is she a mirror in which he sees something he hadn't recognised before? What are your thoughts? -- "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font." -- Psalm 0.1 beta From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Sep 11 11:14:29 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (kneasy) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:14:29 -0000 Subject: Luna or Diana In-Reply-To: <20040911044139.GA16726@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, sean dwyer wrote: > So, my favourite new character. Who is she really, and what is she doing? > > Now I had always thought of Diana as a seperate hunting goddess, but Luna, > goddess of the moon, was "borrowed" from Artemis, or Selene of the Greeks, > twin sister of Apollo (who is a sun-god). If you think of Greek mythology as a > way to describe aspects of reality, then the profusion of gods/goddesses for > the same thing like the moon is more understandable. My sources are all > confused on the matter - some say Selene represents the full moon, Diana/Luna > the crescent moon. Robert Graves in his amazing book 'The White Goddess' > believes that Diana and Luna are two faces of the Triple Goddess: Diana, the > Earth, Luna the Sky (moon in all phases), and Persephone the Underworld. Each > have three phases. Another source says Diana was of the heavens, Luna the > earth, and Hecate/Persephone the underworld. > > All a bit confusing. The important thing to understand is, whatever order they > seem to be in, they relate to the three Fates (eg the three witches of > Macbeth), the Girl, the Woman, the Hag, and all the variants. Luna is always > the central one, so it is in that capacity as the Moon we should view > her. In that she also represents the qualities of the astrological sign Cancer > (or vice versa if you wish), so she represents all phases too. > > Hence her apparent qualities and no little mystery. If JKR sees her as twin > sister of Apollo (and astrologically Harry is a dark Leo), that is intriguing. > The family he never knew he had? His true complement? If he projects as > Apollo, what is it in him that she reflects as Luna? As a Leo, Harry is a > king, is Luna therefore a queen? Is that to do with the hidden royalty > suggested by HBP? Does Luna represent maturity in some way for Harry? Or is > she a mirror in which he sees something he hadn't recognised before? > > What are your thoughts? As usual, it all depends. 'Cos if you look at other mythologies you get a very different picture. Among the Teutonic nations, the Arabians, the Mexicans and the Hindus the moon is male and the sun female. (In modern German it's Mr Moon and Mrs Sun.) In classical mythology the moon was Hecate before rising and after setting, Astarte when crescent and Diana (Cynthia) when riding the heavens. As such, the omens are not auspicious: Hecate -belligerent; goddess of war and sexual love; human sacrifices were probably made to her among the Phoenicians. Astarte (Asteroth) - goddess of lower world, witchcraft and ghosts; triple bodied (horse/dog/boar); sacrifices to her (made at places where roads meet) were usually black dogs, honey, black lambs. Diana (Artemis) - notorious for her anger; goddess of the hunt, of chastity and childbirth/fertility (some confusion there, I think). All of which presents an interesting insight into Luna - a chaste, sexually predatory, gender ambiguous witch who gets easily pissed off and demands black dogs be sacrificed to placate her. (So that's why Sirius got the chop!. Dear, oh dear.) Of course you can turn to traditional associations with the moon, but they're not particularly encouraging either - moon-kissed (stupid), moon-struck (mentally distracted) and of course lunatic. Interestingly JKR (in FBaWTFT) has changed Moon-calf from it's original meaning of 'a shapeless abortion' to some sort of shy, nocturnal, terpsichorean source of fertiliser and linking it perhaps to moon-drops which were supposed be a foam produced by the moon that fell on certain herbs when the right incantation was used. Astrology I won't go into; as a Piscean and therefore gifted with mystical insight, I believe it's a load of old cobblers. As you've probably guessed, I'm not a fan of Luna Lovegood. I think there's a good chance that her vapid maunderings, though made with the best of intentions, will get Harry into a situation he'd rather not be in. She'll offer advice based on her alternative (i.e. detached from reality) view of the world and it'll be tears before bedtime. You mark my words. Kneasy From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Sat Sep 11 14:32:57 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:32:57 +1000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Luna or Diana In-Reply-To: References: <20040911044139.GA16726@...> Message-ID: <20040911143256.GA25015@...> On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 11:14:29AM -0000, kneasy wrote: > As usual, it all depends. > 'Cos if you look at other mythologies you get a very different picture. > Among the Teutonic nations, the Arabians, the Mexicans and the Hindus > the moon is male and the sun female. (In modern German it's Mr Moon > and Mrs Sun.) True, but I think we're fairly safe with Graeco-Roman connotations based on previous form. The Celtic/Norse view is different again. > In classical mythology the moon was Hecate before rising and after setting, > Astarte when crescent and Diana (Cynthia) when riding the heavens. > As such, the omens are not auspicious: > > Hecate -belligerent; goddess of war and sexual love; human sacrifices > were probably made to her among the Phoenicians. > Astarte (Asteroth) - goddess of lower world, witchcraft and ghosts; triple > bodied (horse/dog/boar); sacrifices to her (made at places where roads > meet) were usually black dogs, honey, black lambs. > Diana (Artemis) - notorious for her anger; goddess of the hunt, of chastity > and childbirth/fertility (some confusion there, I think). Again, it depends who you talk to. Artemis/Apollo were both imports to Greek mythology. The ambiguity of the moon phases is probably due to the Romans changing the rules from the Greeks. Persephone, supposedly of the Underworld is said by Plutarch to be also of the moon. Indeed, one source I found on the web said explicitly: "Is it coincidence that both in classical and Arthurian mythology the mistress of vegetation, heroine of an abduction story and the object of a mystery cult, should be equated with the goddess of the moon?" (that's for Steve to add to his Arthurian tome). Another source quotes Porphry to say Hecate covers all moon phases. It's probably more true to say that all these goddesses had their lunar aspects. Only Luna/Selene seem to have the moon as their major property. > All of which presents an interesting insight into Luna - a chaste, sexually > predatory, gender ambiguous witch who gets easily pissed off and demands > black dogs be sacrificed to placate her. > (So that's why Sirius got the chop!. Dear, oh dear.) If she reflects what others see, that could have plot implications. > Of course you can turn to traditional associations with the moon, but they're > not particularly encouraging either - moon-kissed (stupid), moon-struck > (mentally distracted) and of course lunatic. Interestingly JKR (in FBaWTFT) > has changed Moon-calf from it's original meaning of 'a shapeless abortion' > to some sort of shy, nocturnal, terpsichorean source of fertiliser and linking > it perhaps to moon-drops which were supposed be a foam produced by the > moon that fell on certain herbs when the right incantation was used. Moon-dew was a girl's first menstrual blood taken at a lunar eclipse, used by witches. Pliny said it had great power for good and ill. > Astrology I won't go into; as a Piscean and therefore gifted with mystical > insight, I believe it's a load of old cobblers. But that doesn't mean JKR isn't going to use it. Interesting that Robert Graves, a Leo, was so fascinated by his triple goddess, and a considerable scholar of Roman history. The symbolism fits, I don't think that accidental. > As you've probably guessed, I'm not a fan of Luna Lovegood. I think there's > a good chance that her vapid maunderings, though made with the best of > intentions, will get Harry into a situation he'd rather not be in. She'll offer > advice based on her alternative (i.e. detached from reality) view of the > world and it'll be tears before bedtime. > You mark my words. Words duly marked, but that could also be a nasty Voldy trick to blind our Hero to reality and bring him down. Is Luna a huntress, or does she just fancy shepherds? -- "Fascists divide in two categories: the fascists and the anti-fascists" -- Ennio Flaiano From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid Sat Sep 11 15:56:13 2004 From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (Nora Renka) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:56:13 -0000 Subject: Luna or Diana In-Reply-To: <20040911044139.GA16726@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, sean dwyer wrote: > So, my favourite new character. Who is she really, and what is she doing? > Robert Graves in his amazing book 'The White Goddess' believes that > Diana and Luna are two faces of the Triple Goddess: Diana, the > Earth, Luna the Sky (moon in all phases), and Persephone the > Underworld. Each have three phases. Another source says Diana was > of the heavens, Luna the earth, and Hecate/Persephone the > underworld. One quick note: you *do* know that White Goddess is pretty much completely and utterly discredited as a work of serious scholarship on myth, right? It's a fun read, but it's ultimately way more about Robert Graves, his period and their obsession with what myth meant to them and his ideas of poetic inspiration, than anything else. His kind of wide-spreading structuralist equivalency, and Joseph Campbell's as well, are not taken seriously on the academic level by people who study mythology, particularly classical mythoi, seriously. Sure, every figure that has the same overt figures looks related, but only when you wipe out all the background context. When it comes to myth 'Greco-Roman' is also deeply misleading, as well. Roman religion and Greek religion are fundamentally truly profoundly different. The borrowings and adaptations of Greek mythical figures into Roman ideas either 1) put them into a wildly different cosmological scheme 2) took place in an era of witty skepticism fully aware of what they were doing (Ovid, for example). > Hence her apparent qualities and no little mystery. If JKR sees her > as twin sister of Apollo (and astrologically Harry is a dark Leo), > that is intriguing. The family he never knew he had? His true > complement? If he projects as Apollo, what is it in him that she > reflects as Luna? As a Leo, Harry is a king, is Luna therefore a > queen? Is that to do with the hidden royalty suggested by HBP? Does > Luna represent maturity in some way for Harry? Or is she a mirror > in which he sees something he hadn't recognised before? I don't think it really means much of anything. JKR uses mythology, sure, but she uses it in a highly idiosyncratic way, and just as often splits things off completely from their source--in other words, she may use a basic and obvious connotation, but I can't think of any cases where it goes deeper. Remus Lupin is a great example (at least so far); he doesn't have a twin, he's not descended from divinity, and I don't think he's going to be murdered after founding a city. She just wanted the wolf connotations, which are really almost too twee for words, and does give away something to the astute reader. Lots of the names have symbolism, but they seem primarily restricted to such within the little world that she's created. I don't see any future to the intricate schemes of plot detection founded on mythology, or alchemy, or history. She's definitely a sentimental artist, and not a naive one (to borrow that time-worn yet useful distinction). -Nora was, once upon a time, a classicist, and still loves to talk shop From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 12 03:57:54 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:57:54 +1000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Luna or Diana In-Reply-To: References: <20040911044139.GA16726@...> Message-ID: <20040912035754.GB25015@...> On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 03:56:13PM -0000, Nora Renka wrote: > One quick note: you *do* know that White Goddess is pretty much > completely and utterly discredited as a work of serious scholarship > on myth, right? It's a fun read, but it's ultimately way more about > Robert Graves, his period and their obsession with what myth meant to > them and his ideas of poetic inspiration, than anything else. His > kind of wide-spreading structuralist equivalency, and Joseph > Campbell's as well, are not taken seriously on the academic level by > people who study mythology, particularly classical mythoi, seriously. > Sure, every figure that has the same overt figures looks related, but > only when you wipe out all the background context. Very well aware, and equally aware that noone except academics give a toss. They were both operating at a time when the goddess theory was still current, and both were prepared to look beyond specific contexts, even if their conclusions were subsequently deemed erroneous. Graves explicitly said whatever anyone else thought, it was poetically true for him. Campbell did pioneering work, which is still annoyingly popular, and as yet not outshone. It has to be said that even background context is the subject of continuing argument. Like a good scholar I have not restricted my sources to them; in any case the detail will end up superfluous as you rightly point out below. > When it comes to myth 'Greco-Roman' is also deeply misleading, as > well. Roman religion and Greek religion are fundamentally truly > profoundly different. The borrowings and adaptations of Greek > mythical figures into Roman ideas either 1) put them into a wildly > different cosmological scheme 2) took place in an era of witty > skepticism fully aware of what they were doing (Ovid, for example). Very true, I only meant Graeco-Roman in the general sense of the origins and the borrowing, not that the two were equivalent. But you can emphasise the differences or the similarities; I think this is what annoys many about Campbell. > I don't think it really means much of anything. JKR uses mythology, > sure, but she uses it in a highly idiosyncratic way, and just as > often splits things off completely from their source--in other words, > she may use a basic and obvious connotation, but I can't think of any > cases where it goes deeper. Remus Lupin is a great example (at least > so far); he doesn't have a twin, he's not descended from divinity, > and I don't think he's going to be murdered after founding a city. > She just wanted the wolf connotations, which are really almost too > twee for words, and does give away something to the astute reader. It's classical allusion, a habit which used to infect English literature to a nauseating degree. Allusion is never meant to correspond at all points; like Shakespeare's allusions to the classics, it's meant as a pointer to the grownup readers. The problem for us is which characteristic is JKR going to pick? We cannot know beforehand, so must lay out the details. > Lots of the names have symbolism, but they seem primarily restricted > to such within the little world that she's created. I don't see any > future to the intricate schemes of plot detection founded on > mythology, or alchemy, or history. She's definitely a sentimental > artist, and not a naive one (to borrow that time-worn yet useful > distinction). Lupin's lycanthropy had no plot implications? Nothing intricate there. No dog-like loyalty and protectiveness in Sirius? What use would the symbolism have outside the Potterverse? Now kneasy is pessimistic; I'm optimistic - whatever her symbolism, Luna is potentially important to the plot. I wouldn't be interested in the symbolism otherwise. -- "Fascists divide in two categories: the fascists and the anti-fascists" -- Ennio Flaiano From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 12 14:13:17 2004 From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (Nora Renka) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:13:17 -0000 Subject: Luna or Diana In-Reply-To: <20040912035754.GB25015@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, sean dwyer wrote: > Lupin's lycanthropy had no plot implications? Nothing intricate > there. No dog-like loyalty and protectiveness in Sirius? What use > would the symbolism have outside the Potterverse? Now kneasy is > pessimistic; I'm optimistic - whatever her symbolism, Luna is > potentially important to the plot. I wouldn't be interested in the > symbolism otherwise. Oh, not saying that there's not symbolism there and she doesn't use it--perhaps I was not clear enough. I'm the deep skeptic about the attempts to map the clear mythological/historical/whatever patterns onto the characters to predict future conflicts or plot resolutions. (The perpetual chestnut of how Arthur and Lucius both have names derived from Popes and thus are destined to fight it out is a prime example--alas, I don't even remember all the details). Luna is important to the plot, but aspects of her character seem pretty obviously clear (at least to me)--she's really rather spacey, she inhabits something of her own world, she's extremely intuitive, and is thus the anti-Hermione, etc. The best suggestion I've seen lately for her importance was actually over on that other list that we all frequent every once in a while. The suggestion was made that Luna, in part, represents faith--her 'don't you hear them? it's not like we won't see them again'. Throw that in with the self-confessed Christianity of the author (hello potential flamewar, I know), and you have some real resonance. But any detailed and specific links to a mythological moon figure? Not really JKR's style. No, she likes to modify her sources--Romulus and Remus are related to wolves, but there's no lycanthropy anywhere in that story. With Sirius, the best you can get is that it's the brightest star in the sky, and the Dog Star--given that, she's extrapolated those lovably doggy traits onto the character, but dumped most all of the other associations. The symbolism and allusion hunt can go on forever, but this isn't Vergil, where all of them are meaningful. The trick is to find out which ones are, and to what extent the original sources can tell us much of anything. It's always worth a giggle where you spot an original source, but it doesn't always tell you much. -Nora waits for the library to open From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Mon Sep 13 04:08:08 2004 From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (sean dwyer) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:08:08 +1000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Luna or Diana In-Reply-To: References: <20040912035754.GB25015@...> Message-ID: <20040913040808.GA30861@...> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 02:13:17PM -0000, Nora Renka wrote: > Oh, not saying that there's not symbolism there and she doesn't use > it--perhaps I was not clear enough. I'm the deep skeptic about the > attempts to map the clear mythological/historical/whatever patterns > onto the characters to predict future conflicts or plot resolutions. > (The perpetual chestnut of how Arthur and Lucius both have names > derived from Popes and thus are destined to fight it out is a prime > example--alas, I don't even remember all the details). Point taken, and well put. > Luna is important to the plot, but aspects of her character seem > pretty obviously clear (at least to me)--she's really rather spacey, > she inhabits something of her own world, she's extremely intuitive, > and is thus the anti-Hermione, etc. The best suggestion I've seen > lately for her importance was actually over on that other list that > we all frequent every once in a while. The suggestion was made that > Luna, in part, represents faith--her 'don't you hear them? it's not > like we won't see them again'. Throw that in with the self-confessed > Christianity of the author (hello potential flamewar, I know), and > you have some real resonance. I like that - the anti-Hermione :) JKR must be in rebellion against the '60's or something... I too think that the Christian tendency waxes, which would be heavy irony considering the continuing masses of Harry is the Devil-type websites. > But any detailed and specific links to a mythological moon figure? > Not really JKR's style. No, she likes to modify her sources--Romulus > and Remus are related to wolves, but there's no lycanthropy anywhere > in that story. With Sirius, the best you can get is that it's the > brightest star in the sky, and the Dog Star--given that, she's > extrapolated those lovably doggy traits onto the character, but > dumped most all of the other associations. Note also that JKR used the 'black dog' symbolism not common to US readers as an extra joke. She'll probably have fun with moon jokes then. > The symbolism and allusion hunt can go on forever, but this isn't Vergil, > where all of them are meaningful. The trick is to find out which ones are, > and to what extent the original sources can tell us much of anything. It's > always worth a giggle where you spot an original source, but it doesn't > always tell you much. That was my view also, hence my dumping of as many associations as I could dig up. I'll know something's up if she dresses in red. -- We... know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling. -- Henry Poincar From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Tue Sep 14 14:33:24 2004 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:33:24 -0000 Subject: Silly Taglines and the Perils of Theorising In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Carolyn: > [...]Coincidentally, this evening I had an email from someone > else, who, although she isn't a member of this group, I know will not > mind me quoting it here, as it is relevant: > > 'I really *cannot* take all the Deep Thought and convoluted > theorizing, especially since every time JKR weighs in on the topic, > she mocks the theories mercilessly. These really *are* children's > books; everything always turns out simpler than we think it is, and > adolescent angst from the adult perspective is way tiresome.' Annemehr: Hmmm... Well, *some* of those convoluted theories depend on stretching the plain meaning of the text beyond credibility, I think. I wonder if JKR ever feels, while reading some of these, whether it is possible for her to phrase a passage in such a way that people don't immediately find a way for it to mean exactly the opposite. Of course, this is the result of the great plot reversals: Quirrell was the bad guy, not Snape; Sirius was good and Scabbers was bad; Moody was really a DE in disguise. We look for that now. Still, JKR did not sneak any of this by us by seemingly writing the opposite of what she meant, did she? It's more like she let us assume things and then caught those of us who fell for it. All the words that came before the reversals still have their plain meanings; only now we can see where we jumped to conclusions about what else they implied. Also, of course, only a certain few characters can be not what they seem. For the story to be coherent at all, and not end up completely surreal, most of them will have to turn out to have been basically who Harry thought they were. The question, then, is which is which? Similar logic applies to plot lines -- only so many can have that sudden, unexpected twist. Carolyn's correspondent: > > 'Second, while we were geeking out online speculating on the reason > for the delay in Book 5, Herself was out having a life. She dated, > found a man, got married and had a baby. And did we learn our lesson? > Hell, no. We're obsessing about Snape and James and hyphens, and JKR > is getting laid. [Now] The woman is pregnant again.' Annemehr: He he! The nerve of the woman! After all, she's only 39! Seriously, though, didn't we know all this at the time, more or less? Carolyn: > However, up to a point, I agree with Anne that there seems to have > been a sea-change in the nature of speculation this time round, > compared to the feverish anticipation pre-OOP. I have just read part > of the archives for this group, and it was really rather nice to > revisit that fantastic excitement and realise I was definitely not > alone at the time. My impression now though is that the level of > expectation is much more under control, and this is not just because > we are only two books from The End. > > There seem to be three main causes: > > - the plot options are closing down much faster than they need to due > to the way JKR is choosing to use her website Annemehr: That is a shame. I myself have wished she'd lay off the spoilers and just let the books speak for themselves. I can see answering the Mark Evans question, maybe -- it forestalls having people spend all of book 6 wondering what happened to him -- but otherwise, I agree with you. She'd have plenty to upload dealing with questions of clarity ("Why didn't Harry see Thestrals before?") and including some of the background details that don't fit into the books (although then you have to decide if they're fodder for theories or not). After all, it is the nature of plot options to close down, anyway. They opened up wide in PoA, which is why it is the favorite book of so many. The possibilities were endless. GoF gave us more info to work with, but didn't really close off any avenues of speculation. Now, though, the plot has to begin to be particular. As the story follows one path, the others become impossible. Sirius is dead: every theory concerning his future is nullified. And naturally, for many people the course of the plot will leave out their favorite theoriies. Carolyn: > - something of a consensus is emerging about where she is going with > the story (few bangs; big moral, maybe even religious theme as the > answer to it all) Annemehr: Aw, I was hoping for both. Not that I particularly like morality plays, but I'd be perfectly happy if Harry succeeded at least partly because he did something very good. Nor would I be surprised, as he has done so in every book so far (except OoP, where he tried to do something good, but failed because he didn't realise good intentions are not enough). Even in GoF, I think his stroppily refusing to lie down and die was a very good thing. It's the way JKR writes, and the kind of book she seems to like, as well. I still expect certain bangs: exactly what is the scar, what about Lily and her eyes, Neville's role, etc. Carolyn: > - a niggling worry that she just might not be a good enough writer to > deliver what are supposed to be two even deeper, more complex books Annemehr: I've also been niggled. Still, there's the idea that she's known how she's ending it since before the first book was published, and believed in it herself. As long as she can get from here to there without hitting any more major plot holes... at the moment I'm not worried. Do the next two books need to be deeper and more complex, or just keep up the standard? To me, OoP was very deep, in that it took me months to work out what I think is its purpose. I admit, my foremost hope is for a satisfying payoff which illuminates what came before. It's too much to ask for the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything. ;) That brings up an interesting question, though: how deep is deep for a good book? What are the deepest books people have read? And how disastrous is it to raise deep questions in a story that you as an author can't answer? (FWIW, I think not at all, just as long as you don't dash off some lame excuse for an answer.) Carolyn: > All this could make for a somewhat dull outlook IMO, but the thing > that keeps many of us dyed-in-the-wool theorists going is that there > still seem to be so many layers of meaning that can be extracted from > the plot and the characters. Even more intriguingly (and amusingly), > that JKR may have had no intention of putting this complexity there, > and be pretty irritated that such theories can be supported > convincingly from canon [so far]. Yes, there is still plenty of room for theorising. We're just daunted a bit by the fact that some of our old theories have been shot down, and some of our new ones have been denied by JKR herself outside the books (in chats and on her site). My personal theory about how JKR writes is that she received a decent grounding in the classics & folklore through her education which mixture sort of leavened in her mind (with the help of a bit of research) and came out in the books. I think there is plenty that got from her mind and beliefs into the books without her direct intention, but simply from who she happens to be. And it is perfectly valid for us to try to dig it out! [My newest fledgeling book theory is not a plotline per se, but on what ancient magic is -- it germinated as I was typing a post for the Hogs Head. In short, ancient magic is released by vulnerability. It is probably related to uncontrolled magic that a child does when threatened, and may involve self defence and by extension, defense of the innocent. It is "ancient" because, naturally, it is the first type of magic the first witches and wizards could do, and how they found out that they were, in fact, magical beings. Controlled magic, with wands, came later, and has nearly eclipsed the more primitive (yet very powerful) ancient variety. And, of course, it figures prominently in Harry's defeat of Voldemort.] Annemehr From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 15 02:06:38 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape's Backsid-- er, BacksLide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915020638.68467.qmail@...> Given JKR's love of puns, don't you think that the name Severus Snape has to be a pun too? In that he will "sever us" ( separate us) perhaps the cause of a rift inside the Order of Phoenix or the Death Eaters groups. Or better yet that "he will sever us" since the two intertwined snakes that appeared in one story could be severed by Severus Snake ( I mean Snape). He could separate Harry from Voldemort ultimately so that Harry can have a normal life. Perhaps Severus will die as he separates Harry and Voldemort in some ritualistic dual. This is just so much like Luke and Darth Vader in their battle between the Jedi and the Dark Side. The two snake like shapes that make up Yin/Yang and each contains an element of the other. Since Snape and Harry detest each other, it only seems fitting that Snape should save Harry or Harry should save Snape in Book 7. Of course, severus does remind us of that beheading idea that people keep bringing up! Well, I guess we can just let the heads fall where they may! Parting is such sweet sorrow! Red Eye Randy --- Judy wrote: > > Snape, Snape? Did I hear someone say Snape? > > Kelley wrote: > > Just idly curious, to the folks for whom Snape is > their biggest > > interest -- lately, due to both comments JKR's > made on her site and > > in chats, I'm coming more to the idea that he's > going to turn > > out ESE after all (hm, or maybe he'll just > backslide a bit). No > > idea how many people already feel this way, but if > he does turn out > > to be a bad guy after all, how would that affect > your affinity for > > him? > > Hmmm.... if Snape turns out to be ESE, I will just > have to sadly > conclude that JKR failed to understand him. (How's > that for > subverting the canon?) > > I'm not sure that JKR's comments mean that Snape is > ESE. I do think > she intended him to be an unlikable person -- > bitter, vindictive, and > so forth -- and that she's perplexed by his many > fans. She doesn't > understand that we want to *save* him! Snape > clearly just needs my -- > er, I mean, *some* good woman's love. (BTW, I'm > not attracted to > Alan Rickman, although he is a good actor. Too old > to play Snape, > though, I'd say.) > > In JKR's recent question-and-answer session, she was > really dismayed > about all the women who are attracted to Snape, > Draco, and Lucius. > She seemed genuninely worried that these women are > attracted to cruel > men in real life. I think that's probably not often > the case. > Certainly, that's not the case in my life. (I do > remember a very > funny question, I think in was on OTC, where a guy > asked, "What are > the real-life partners like of all these women that > adore Snape?" My > husband has nothing in common with Snape except > intelligence.) > > The thing is, one can interpret a fictional > character as one pleases. > The amount of information in the books about Lucius, > Draco, or even > Snape is miniscule compared to the information one > would quickly > acquire when dating an actual human. So, one can > believe that Draco > really was trying to save Hermione at the Quidditch > World Cup, or > that Snape only torments Neville in order to put on > a good front for > the DE's children, etc. When JKR provides > incontrovertible evidence > that a particular character is evil, then that > character gets few > fans -- I haven't come across many Voldemort fans, > for example. > > If I ever get organized and actually *write* all > these psychology > books that are floating around in my head, I may > someday write a book > about sexual motivation. Maybe I can have a chapter > about > Snapefans! (I'd definitely want to speculate on why > so many women > are into Male/Male ships.) > > -- Judy > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 15 03:29:20 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Intro Profile (Kelley's!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915032920.62014.qmail@...> I really liked "Something Wicked this way comes" and "Dandelion Wine" by Bradbury. I think his unexpected endings to his short stories made me always conscious of alternative plot endings as I grew up. I constantly watch movies and predict the endings ( but not out loud as I wish to leave the theatre in one piece) I almost figured out the Mad Eye Moody switcheroo when Harry had the map in his hand but I never would have guessed about the son. I just thought the father was a bad guy. I think JKR's use of puns in literal story telling is what makes me like these so much. The last 100 pages of every book are also the most anticipated now. Ever since Quirrell, I can't wait for the plot changes to begin. I do get the feeling that she has left us all of the clues we need, but always mentions them in passing so we don't see the gold coins lying in the gold straw on the floor. After seeing the movies with the moving paintings, I wonder if the Louvre becomes one big orgy every night after the tourists leave. Oh well, there are plenty of religious paintings to provide confession afterwards.;0) Red Eye Randy (who has whittled down his email from 142 unread messages to about 65 now!) --- annemehr wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley" > > wrote: > > > Side comment: I grew up on Bradbury, too; Randy, > I think you're the > > only other Bradbury fan I've ever met! Still have > a great fondness > > for his stuff, as well, and reread much of it > every now and then > > (same thing with Vonnegut)... > > > > Me, too! Well, okay, I admit I haven't read all his > stuff (so many > books...etc.). But _Something Wicked This Way Comes_ > is one of my > all-time favorite books. Shame I lost it in my house > somewhere (about > the time I had kids); I'd really like to reread that > -- though I > probably won't be *able* to anymore without a > certain Toad Chorus > running in my head... > > Annemehr > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 15 03:42:09 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] DAMN, CRAZED TOME Canon: DD/MD, Locked Room & The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915034209.592.qmail@...> Oh just put a sock in it would ya! --- boyd_smythe wrote: > boyd: > > Yesterday I posted the most ridiculously crazy > theory in my history, > but I think there are kernels of truth in there, so > I'm restating it > in a more serious way. Note: assumes aspects of MD > and inclides > new discussions of socks, the Locked Room in the > MoM, and an end-game > analysis. > > A brief synopsis of DAMN, CRAZED TOME?!?: DD's true > goal is far > broader than the defeat of LV; he wants nothing less > than to try to > eliminate magic from the world. > > This begs three questions that I shall attempt to > answer with canon. > > 1) Is there any proof that DD wants to eliminate > magic? Yes. > - Dumbledore sees himself "holding a pair of thick > woollen socks" in > the mirror of Erised (SS/PS). Very non-magical > vision, that. > Especially when paired with the following. > - He says "One can never have enough > socks...Another Christmas has > come and gone and I didn't get a single pair. People > will insist on > giving me books." (SS/PS) Since every book in the WW > that we've seen > relates in some way to magic, we can perhaps > paraphrase this quote > thus, "I prefer non-magic comforts to magic." > - Further, these socks represent freedom in HP, > thanks to Dobby whom > we see "holding up Harry's disgusting, slimy sock > and looking at it as > though it were a priceless treasure" in CoS. > - So socks represent freedom and non-magic, or is > it freedom *from* > magic? When Dobby is given a sock, doesn't that > break the magic > binding of elf to wizard, thus substituting freedom > for magic? I think > JKR is trying to tell us something more here that > has been very hard > to discern. > - He destroys the Stone in PS/SS, a powerful magic > of its own. > - When he tells Harry, "it is our choices, Harry, > that show what we > truly are, far more than our abilities," isn't he > saying that Harry's > choices are more important than his magic? Just a > roundabout way of > saying that magic is not very important. > - In PS/SS, DD tells Harry "the trouble is, humans > do have a knack of > choosing precisely those things that are worst for > them." He mentions > money and life specifically, because he's talking > about the Stone, but > his actions against would-be evil lords (Grindlewald > in 1945 and LV > ongoing) make it clear that he feels the same about > magical power. > - Q: Whom does he choose to teach his students > DADA? A: Individuals > who will teach the students to mistrust magic and > authority. Each has > betrayed the kids in some way, although Lupin's > betrayal is simply > that he is dangerous magic incarnate, not his > choice. Among the other > teachers, it seems that DD has collected individuals > based more on > loyalty to him and his cause than magical ability > (notice how inept > Trelawney and Hagrid are, for example). Seems quite > a dismissive act > for the headmaster of a school of magic, doesn't it? > - Also, we have all noted just how little useful > magic seems to be > taught in Hogwarts. In particular, DD seems not to > think Harry needs > reasonable training in magic, even assigning the > dreadfully ill-suited > Snape to "teach" him Occlumens. Perhaps this is > intentional on DD's > part--he does not see salvation for Harry or the > other students in > magic. This may be why we see so many classes that > do not teach magic: > Quiddich/riding brooms, History of Magic, Hagrid's > classes on magical > beasts, and Divination, which has been up to this > point apparently > worthless to its students. > - Despite his powers, he has done little to advance > the magical > capabilities of the WW since leaving Flamel and > finding the 12 uses > for dragon's blood. He did not choose to work at the > MoM as an auror > or Unspeakable, and in fact turned down an offer to > be its Minister. > (SS/PS and OoP) > > 2) Why would the most powerful magician of his > generation want to > eliminate magic? Now we get to the real meat of my > argument. Listen to > what these quotes imply about magic and wizards in > HP. > - "Not a wizard, eh? Never made things happen when > you was scared or > angry?" (PS/SS) > - "He was tipped for the next Minister of Magic. > He's a great wizard, > Barty Crouch [Sr.], powerfully magical -- and > power-hungry." (Hagrid > in GoF) > - "If Filch's trying to learn magic from a Kwikspell > course, I reckon > he must be a Squib. It would explain a lot. Like why > he hates students > so much. He's bitter." (Ron in CoS) > - "It's about the most insulting thing he could > think of....Mudblood's > a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born -- > you know, > non-magic parents." (Ron in CoS) > - "It's a disgusting thing to call someone. Dirty > blood, see." (Ron in > CoS) > - "I am calling you a Muggle. It means that you are > not a wizard. ... > But I am not a man, Muggle. I am much, much more > than a man...." (LV > in GoF) > - "We don't send people to Azkaban just for blowing > up their aunts!" > (Fudge in PoA) Note that this aunt is a muggle. > - "We are all familiar with the extremists who > campaign for the > classification of Muggles as 'beasts'," writes Newt > Scamander (FB > xiii). > > Taken together, these demonstrate that to many > wizards, Muggles are > not just different; they are *inferior*. They study > them like we study > beasts; they discuss them condescendingly. They > treat wizards who > consort with Muggles badly (Mr. Weasley), and they > treat the offspring > of Muggles or Muggle-Wizard unions even worse. > > Why? It's not just about the blood, or squibs like > Filch would be > treated better. It's clearly that they feel the > magic sets them apart > from mere Muggles. > > So if Dumbledore wants to eliminate racism, cruelty > to Muggles, and > all related prejudice from the WW, then there is > just one solution: > eliminate magic. > > But, you say, what about all the good that magic > does? Well, show me > what good magic does that can't be done with good > old Muggle hard > work. Sure, cleaning houses with the flick of a wand > is nice, but that > benefit pales in comparison to the constant danger > of evil lords, > Muggle-bashing, pure-bloodist divisiveness and the > resulting constant > threat of civil war within the WW. Not to mention > the constant danger > from many magical creatures, objects and so forth. > > DD sees all of this and chooses the less-travelled > path: eliminate > magic. > > 3) How could one eliminate magic from the world? > - "...and that's Bode and Croaker...they're > Unspeakables...[f]rom the > Department of Mysteries, top secret, no idea what > they get up to..." > (Arthur Weasley in GoF) > - The locked door in the MoM melts Harry's *magic* > knife. > === message truncated === _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From entropymail at entropymail.yahoo.invalid Mon Sep 20 20:30:30 2004 From: entropymail at entropymail.yahoo.invalid (entropymail) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:30:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Silvery Sign Message-ID: >> "Should I go get someone?" said Harry. "Madam Pomfrey?" "No," said Dumbledore swiftly. "Stay here." He raised his want into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird. (GoF, ch 28)<< In the interest of stumping The Old Crowd, I came upon this passage in GoF, and just had to ask: What do you think flew from Dumbledore's wand? Was it some sort of message, protection, spell? And, consequently, who or what was it for? I've got a few of my own ideas but, frankly, they're a mess. Maybe you guys can make some sense of it. :: Entropy :: From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Mon Sep 20 20:50:20 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:50:20 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Dumbledore's Silvery Sign In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , entropymail writes >>> "Should I go get someone?" said Harry. "Madam Pomfrey?" >"No," said Dumbledore swiftly. "Stay here." >He raised his want into the air and pointed it in the direction of >Hagrid's cabin.? Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak >away through the trees like a ghostly bird.? (GoF, ch 28)<< > >In the interest of stumping The Old Crowd, I came upon this passage in >GoF, and just had to ask:? What do you think flew from Dumbledore's >wand?? Was it some sort of message, protection, spell? And, >consequently, who or what was it for? > >I've got a few of my own ideas but, frankly, they're a mess. Maybe you >guys can make some sense of? it. >:: Entropy :: I'm answering this from memory, and haven't looked up the passage, but I always assumed that he was sending a message to Hagrid, requesting his presence. IIRC, Hagrid turns up minutes later, as though summoned. Catherine From jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid Tue Sep 21 00:10:46 2004 From: jflanagan1 at jamesf991.yahoo.invalid (Jim Flanagan) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:10:46 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Dumbledore's Silvery Sign References: Message-ID: <000601c49f6f$750b2f30$0302a8c0@athena> I took it to be a magical message intended for Hagrid. Probably composed of the same "stuff" as a patronus. IIRC Dumbledore's patronus is a Phoenix, which might explain the allusion to a "ghostly bird." -Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: entropymail To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 4:30 PM Subject: [the_old_crowd] Dumbledore's Silvery Sign >> "Should I go get someone?" said Harry. "Madam Pomfrey?" "No," said Dumbledore swiftly. "Stay here." He raised his want into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird. (GoF, ch 28)<< In the interest of stumping The Old Crowd, I came upon this passage in GoF, and just had to ask: What do you think flew from Dumbledore's wand? Was it some sort of message, protection, spell? And, consequently, who or what was it for? I've got a few of my own ideas but, frankly, they're a mess. Maybe you guys can make some sense of it. :: Entropy :: Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Tue Sep 21 00:13:30 2004 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:13:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Silvery Sign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Entropy brought up this passage: > >> "Should I go get someone?" said Harry. "Madam Pomfrey?" > "No," said Dumbledore swiftly. "Stay here." > He raised his want into the air and pointed it in the direction of > Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak > away through the trees like a ghostly bird. (GoF, ch 28)<< [...] Well, as it was sent towards Hagrid's cabin, I never gave it a second thought but assumed that's what summoned him. Hagrid apparently knew it was urgent, too, since he appeared running, out of breath, and with Fang and the infamous crossbow. I hope I'm not "cheating" posting this, but I believe JKR has told us the silvery thing was indeed a bird, and the kind you would expect. >From the Edinburgh Book Festival: --------------------------------------------------------- Q: What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? JKR: Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can guess. ---------------------------------------------------------- I'm sure the "whisper" she refers to is the passage Entropy is posting about. What I'm not sure of though is whether you all would agree. After all, we'd never had any other indication that a wizard could send a Patronus off to run errands! How would it have communicated to Hagrid? Would it have just been a prearranged understanding between Dumbledore and Hagrid that Hagrid would always go to him if ever the Patronus was sent? Why then, in OoP, does Dumbledore always use Fawkes himself to send messages? Could Harry learn to do something like this, or would this be one of the things Dumbledore does with his wand that Madam Marchbanks had never seen before? (And I *heard* that! Quit sniggering!) Annemehr From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Tue Sep 21 01:28:40 2004 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:28:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Silvery Sign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > He raised his want into the air and pointed it in the direction of > Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak > away through the trees like a ghostly bird. (GoF, ch 28)<< I recall one post on the Main List which had understood that text to mean that somethning silvery had darted out of Hagrid's cabin and streaked away through the trees like a ghostly bird. From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid Tue Sep 21 01:57:00 2004 From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:57:00 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dumbledore's Silvery Sign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am very much intrigued by this. I remember reading Jo's comment about the hint of Dumbledore's patronus but never spent time trying to figure out what it refered to. This certainly seems likely. Harry does order his Patronus around, and we all know that Dumbledore is MUCH better at magic. Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) [mailto:catlady at ...] > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:29 PM > To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dumbledore's Silvery Sign > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" > wrote: > > > He raised his want into the air and pointed it in the direction of > > Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it > and streak > > away through the trees like a ghostly bird. (GoF, ch 28)<< > > I recall one post on the Main List which had understood that > text to mean that somethning silvery had darted out of > Hagrid's cabin and streaked away through the trees like a > ghostly bird. > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> > $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/.DlolB/TM > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Tue Sep 21 04:40:04 2004 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:40:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Silvery Sign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" > wrote: > > > He raised his want into the air and pointed it in the direction of > > Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak > > away through the trees like a ghostly bird. (GoF, ch 28)<< > > I recall one post on the Main List which had understood that text to > mean that somethning silvery had darted out of Hagrid's cabin and > streaked away through the trees like a ghostly bird. Aha! Pronoun problemthhh! ~Daffymehr From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 22 12:43:35 2004 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:43:35 -0000 Subject: I squad Message-ID: I was thinking about the Inquisitorial Squad (obviously due to a lack of life) and I got to wondering how it came about. I don't recall any canon, so this is all speculation. Any canon would be greatly appreciated. The I-Squad was made up entirely of Slyths. From what we see, they are the nastier ones. We know that DU knows LM at least well enough to have gotten a report about Snape from him. So to the questions: Are all Slyths on the I-Squad? I remember Draco saying they were hand-picked, (yeah, Draco, but so are noses. Don't get puffed up about it) but I can't find the reference. Drat, I hate that. Who came up with the idea? Was DU so desperate for control that she appointed them on her own to try to clamp down on everything possible? Did she pick Draco and friends because she knew LM was a man of influence and she wanted to get in good with him? Or was it Fudge or LM (or Fudge with prodding from LM) who suggested it and suggested that Draco would make a good member as he was from a fine family? Just some wandering thoughts. Let me know what you think, or if I missed anything that should make me smack my head and say "duh". Ginger, who wonders (inspired by her typos) if there will be an inquisitorial squid. From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 22 14:01:46 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:01:46 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] I squad References: Message-ID: <011b01c4a0ac$b35f41c0$01fea8c0@...> I think the Slytherin's (in particular Draco and friends) were chosen because they sucked up to Umbridge. They know she's attached to the Ministry which is the power force currently, She obviously doesn't like their enemy of Potter, and at that time, holds most of the power in the school. To them, it quite easily adds up that sucking up to her would better place them for when the change over at Hogwarts occurs, not to mention later in life. What better way to get good in the eyes of the Minister then to be the ones helping out his eyes and ears? Not to mention it gives them free reign to bully those opposed to Umbridge and her decrees, the Gryffindors they love to pick on. I doubt Lucius had a role in it (too busy licking Voldemort's...boots), I think it was just the kids doing what they do and grabbing whatever power they could to further their own needs. Having a suspicion that Umbridge herself was a Slytherin, she would relate and react better to them, then to say a Hufflepuff who came up to her, looking to get on her good side. The only problem with this of course, is that the I squad didn't plan for what would happen should Umbridge lose control. Granted they're young yet, but apparently they didn't learn the lessons of Voldemort and their parents as they never planned for the end. They were too noticeable and too consumed with the privileges granted to them that they made a hash of it for when Dumbledore takes back control. I myself would love to see Draco and Pansy stripped of current rank (Prefects) and taken down to size in the next book (a good lesson to always think ahead instead of gleefully waving about what power you get), but I doubt that'll happen. Sad really, would be a good lesson. Saitaina **** "I do wonder why the artist gave Riddle pointy ears in this doujinshi. I keep waiting for Elrond to drop by." http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 23 12:05:19 2004 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:05:19 -0000 Subject: I squad In-Reply-To: <011b01c4a0ac$b35f41c0$01fea8c0@...> Message-ID: I snipped most of what Saitaina wrote because I agree that it makes good sense. But one part of that post caught my eye: I myself would love to see Draco and > Pansy stripped of current rank > (Prefects) and taken down to size in > the next book (a good lesson to always > think ahead instead of gleefully waving > about what power you get), but I doubt > that'll happen. Sad really, would be a > good lesson. That would be cool. I doubt that DD would actually do it. He is too keen on second chances. If he did, who would he choose to replace them? Theo Nott? Blaise Z? I don't recall hearing of any girls except Pansy and Millicent, and they were on the I squad. Maybe this would introduce the elusive "good Slyth" that many long for, but none have found? Ginger, eating the world's worst pizza From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 26 03:17:13 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:17:13 -0500 Subject: Welcome to Newbies; very *very* late reply to Ron in the Background ....... or not (Long) References: Message-ID: <0c2101c4a377$54cfb270$220110ac@MainComputer> Hi all -- I've been extremely busy in the last few months (ever since I took on the job of answering the Lexicon's incoming emails to be exact! at Steve) and had let over 100 messages pile up in this folder of my inbox. :::ouch::: Welcome to all the new members .... I read all your intros! Alas, no new Harry/Hermione shippers it would seem. Kelley, did you rig that invite list? I shall continue to skip all the Snape-related posts, btw. I saw in Trina's intro that she just finished the last Jasper Fforde novel too ...... wondering if others in this group are enjoying Fforde as much as I am? My own intro could probably use a small update here and there: besides the obvious of being a year older, I am also quite a bit more pregnant than I was then. :--) Am expecting baby Harry to arrive in late December (so Trelawney was right in a sense, eh?). My 3-yr old daughter is still hoping for a change in gender as she tells me daily that she really, really wanted a *sister.* Pregnancy has been the other thing slowing me down (that and taking lots of pre-baby trips). I just finished Fforde's latest novel, "Shadow Divers" and "BushWorld" in the last few weeks. Now, apologies to Jo Serenadust for taking far longer than she did in replying to this topic. I originally posted a message on 6/19 and Jo replied on 7/28 when I was on a vacation. I ......er........got sidetracked and haven't replied until now. Better late than never?! Now if I could remember what my train of thought was when I originally read Jo's response ........ Ah yes ....... in general summation, Jo is arguing that Harry is less and less dependent on just Ron and Hermione and his circle of supporters is ever-widening. She says: <<>> Actually, I agreed with most of your post, Jo (a few niggling small details here and there that I would disagree with ..... for example, I don't think it matters whether Ron would have been too protective to be separated from Ginny in the DoM sequence, the choice wasn't in his hands to make). But, I think you've written mostly about something entirely different than what I was originally discussing. In your summation above though, I don't think you've quite got my point. It's not that I think Harry is being separated just from Ron; I don't really see him as "separated" from Ron. I just see that Ron has less and less development on-screen and less and less importance to the overall narrative, while Hermione seems to be slowly but surely gaining in importance to both the overall narrative and to Harry himself. I see Harry and Hermione as increasingly linked by shared experience and by growing similar outlook (both use the name Voldemort freely now for example). I don't think that means that Harry can't and won't benefit from widening his circle to include more of Neville, Luna, Ginny and others of the DA. But, I think we're talking about two separate things here. I don't think that my theory is necessarily mutually exclusive from what you're discussing though .... I agree completely with the idea that Harry's circle is widening and that this is a good thing. But, I think Ron's character development has suffered in the last book in particular ..... and when one considers the trend from PoA onwards, it's obvious to me that Hermione has really increased in importance significantly while Ron has become more sidelined. Penny (hoping some of that made sense ...... bit hard to answer substantive posts 3 months later!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 26 08:12:02 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:12:02 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Jasper Fforde In-Reply-To: <0c2101c4a377$54cfb270$220110ac@MainComputer> References: <0c2101c4a377$54cfb270$220110ac@MainComputer> Message-ID: In message <0c2101c4a377$54cfb270$220110ac at MainComputer>, pennylin writes >Hi all -- > >I've been extremely busy in the last few months (ever since I took on the >job of answering the Lexicon's incoming emails to be exact!? at Steve) >and had let over 100 messages pile up in this folder of my inbox.? >:::ouch:::? > >Welcome to all the new members .... I read all your intros!? Alas, no new >Harry/Hermione shippers it would seem.? Kelley, did you rig that invite list? >? ? I shall continue to skip all the Snape-related posts, btw.? > >I saw in Trina's intro that she just finished the last Jasper Fforde novel too >...... wondering if others in this group are enjoying Fforde as much as I >am?? Yes, yes, yes, and I've been meaning to post about him for ages, when I saw that some people on this list were enjoying his books. (And thank you to Jeralyn for first bringing him to my attention over on OT-Chatter). I've been collecting his books since The Eyre Affair, and I met him at a reading he did recently in Norwich, on the day "Something Rotten" was published. He rushed in, 20 minutes late, and then didn't draw breath for well over an hour. He was amazing to listen to - people were asking him questions, such as how did he come up with the idea of Dodo cloning, and things like that, and I think he really impressed everyone with a) how inventive he is, and b) how well thought out everything was. He also said that Something Rotten is not the last Thursday Next book, and that he could keep going with them indefinitely, but that his next 2 books at least will not be in this series. Instead, he is working on crime novels, based on Nursery Rhymes. The first one is going to based upon who killed Humpty Dumpty, and the second one is based on Goldilocks, and is entitled "The Fourth Bear." Apparently, although the books are going to be filled with Nursery Rhyme characters, he's setting them in Reading - no doubt doing for Reading exactly what he has done for Swindon. He was also debating what the series was going to be called, and I think the working title at the moment is, obviously "Nursery Crimes." Apparently he wrote both of these books before The Eyre Affair, and has been waiting to get them published, but unfortunately, they are still going to come out at a rate of once a year - the first one being next summer. One thing I love about Jasper Fforde is that he really does appreciate his fans. His website is fantastic, and he has continued with the little gimmicks he started with when The Eyre Affair came out. If you are lucky enough to pick up a copy of one of his books at a signing, it will come complete with a postcard, designed and printed by him. For the Eyre Affair, he did this himself - went around with a polaroid and adulterating signposts. I have one called "Stylish Dodo", which is a picture of a field with a style, and a traffic sign with a dodo on it. Another one has a warning sign on it saying "Bad Spelling Ahead", and on the road is printed SLWO. More recently he's created postcards of "the Seven Wonders of Swindon." If anyone is interested in seeing the few I've managed to collect, I will try and get them scanned in - they are quite amusing. He has also had stamps made up for this book. One which says that the book has been condemned, because of the dangerous Danish content, and other one advertising Toast. Catherine, whose favourite scene so far is the Wuthering Heights Anger Management session, and who also saw Louis de Bernieres at the launch party of "Birds Without Wings" - if anything, that was even more interesting. From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 26 08:47:53 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (kneasy) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:47:53 -0000 Subject: Jasper Fforde In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman wrote: > > Catherine, whose favourite scene so far is the Wuthering Heights Anger > Management session, and who also saw Louis de Bernieres at the launch > party of "Birds Without Wings" - if anything, that was even more > interesting. Thanks for the info re: Nursery Crimes - I've seen that it can be ordered from Amazon, but they don't give any details of content. I did wonder if it was a spin-off from the militant Orals in "The Well of Lost Plots." And I'm distressed at your choice of best scene. Anger management? Dear, oh dear. Sorry, but it has to be the performance of R3 at the Ritz, Swindon. Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 26 19:13:50 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:13:50 -0000 Subject: Jasper Fforde In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "kneasy" wrote: > > And I'm distressed at your choice of best scene. > Anger management? Dear, oh dear. > Sorry, but it has to be the performance of R3 at the Ritz, Swindon. > > Kneasy No, no, it has to be Thursday's night out with Spike from Spec-Ops17 - extracting a SEB (Supreme Evil Being) from his own head with a vacuum cleaner.. 'you see, unlike conventional vacuum cleaners, this one works on a dual cyclone principle that traps dust and evil spirits by powerful centrifugal force. Since there is no bag there is no loss of suction - you can use a lower wattage motor there's a hose action - and a small brush for stair carpets.' 'You find evil spirits in stair carpets?' 'No, by my stair carpets need cleaning just the same as anyone else's.' Note from Spike: 'Every SEB I ever captured considered itself not only the worst personification of unadulterated evil that ever stalked this earth, but also the *only* personification of unadulterated evil that ever stalked the earth. It must have been quite a surprise - and not a little galling - to be locked away with several thousand other SEB's, all pretty much the same, in row upon row of plain glass jars at the Loathsome Id Containment Facility.' Carolyn utterly convinced this is a dig at Voldy-the-hopeless-evil-overlord, what's in Harry's head, and the things in glass jars in Snape's office. From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 26 21:11:50 2004 From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (pennylin) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:11:50 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Jasper Fforde References: Message-ID: <003701c4a40d$769b5d00$220110ac@MainComputer> Hi -- I think I'm with Catherine on favorite scenes from Fforde so far .... loved the anger management scene. Though Fforde is not like HP for me in that I can't always recall the funniest moments off-the-top of my head. But once they are mentioned, I remember it vividly. And I laugh all the way through his books. *Love* Jasper Fforde! I'm giving copies of The Eyre Affair out for Christmas to various friends I think would appreciate his humor. I agree that his website is fabulous; I wish JKR would do even more with her site along these lines. Who else would love to see what Fforde would do with HP? I keep waiting and hoping that there will be a reference ... though maybe Carolyn is right and that scene she quoted is a veiled dig. Hee. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid Sun Sep 26 22:41:28 2004 From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:41:28 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: I squad References: Message-ID: <00e201c4a419$f6ed48e0$01fea8c0@...> Ginger wrote: Theodore Nott is a good candidate on the male side, he's never actively been against the Gryffindors until OotP when Harry outs his dad (unless I missed him somewhere along the line), plus JKR said that he's the only person Draco considers an equal, now while this is no indication of weather he is, in reality Draco's equal in terms of Slytherin House, it's a good indication he's up there (I doubt Draco would take notice of someone not close to his rank in the house). As for the girls, there's at least two other Slytherin girls (Greengrass at least) in the year, so that could be a moment to bring them more into the spotlight. Doubt it. I don't think JKR knows what the term "good Slytherin" means. Or perhaps this batch of Slytherin's really are just all power hungry idiots. *shrugs* Saitaina **** "I do wonder why the artist gave Riddle pointy ears in this doujinshi. I keep waiting for Elrond to drop by." http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Mon Sep 27 21:25:18 2004 From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:25:18 EDT Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Jasper Fforde Message-ID: I'm so glad you're all enjoying him as much as I do! He really was a find! Penny, I can't believe that your little one is 3 already! Jeralyn From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid Tue Sep 28 03:58:34 2004 From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Jasper Fforde In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040928035834.37342.qmail@...> Just a note to the wise.... You can protect your household from Evil spirits including SEBs with the help of Killer Dust Bunnies. Too much cleaning removes the protection of the Killer Dust Bunnies or KDBs. So don't overdo it! We often sacrifice old socks to the KDBs in our house. They demand sacrifices. You may have wondered what happens to the lost sock mate in the dryer. The KDBs have merely taken the sock to a better place. Red Eye Randy --- carolynwhite2 wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "kneasy" > > wrote: > > > > And I'm distressed at your choice of best scene. > > Anger management? Dear, oh dear. > > Sorry, but it has to be the performance of R3 at > the Ritz, Swindon. > > > > Kneasy > > No, no, it has to be Thursday's night out with Spike > from Spec-Ops17 - > extracting a SEB (Supreme Evil Being) from his own > head with a > vacuum cleaner.. > > 'you see, unlike conventional vacuum cleaners, this > one works on a > dual cyclone principle that traps dust and evil > spirits by powerful > centrifugal force. Since there is no bag there is no > loss of suction - > you can use a lower wattage motor there's a hose > action - and a > small brush for stair carpets.' > > 'You find evil spirits in stair carpets?' > 'No, by my stair carpets need cleaning just the same > as anyone > else's.' > > Note from Spike: > 'Every SEB I ever captured considered itself not > only the worst > personification of unadulterated evil that ever > stalked this earth, > but also the *only* personification of unadulterated > evil that ever > stalked the earth. It must have been quite a > surprise - and not a > little galling - to be locked away with several > thousand other SEB's, > all pretty much the same, in row upon row of plain > glass jars at the > Loathsome Id Containment Facility.' > > Carolyn > utterly convinced this is a dig at > Voldy-the-hopeless-evil-overlord, > what's in Harry's head, and the things in glass jars > in Snape's > office. > > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Tue Sep 28 22:20:33 2004 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:20:33 -0000 Subject: Jasper Fforde In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Catherine wrote: > Yes, yes, yes, and I've been meaning to post about him for ages, when I saw that some people on this list were enjoying his books. Thanks, Catherine, Penny, Kneasy (and anyone else who replied to this thread). I've been meaning to read his books--they're on my reading list (which grows exponentially at a frightening rate!) but I couldn't remember his name. The *character's* name, yes. But not his (CRS* strikes again). *Can't Remember Sh-- Parker, who's discovered a slew of wonderful fantasy writers while waiting for JKR to write From catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid Wed Sep 29 08:36:56 2004 From: catherine at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:36:56 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Jasper Fforde In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9UtafeJoQnWBJwh5@...> In message , harpdreamer writes >*Can't Remember Sh-- LOL. >Parker, who's discovered a slew of wonderful fantasy writers while >waiting for JKR to write Please share! Catherine From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Thu Sep 30 15:24:07 2004 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:24:07 -0000 Subject: Authors (was Jasper Fforde) In-Reply-To: <9UtafeJoQnWBJwh5@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman >Parker, who's discovered a slew of wonderful fantasy writers while > >waiting for JKR to write > > Please share! > > Catherine Will do. I'm always ready to turn more readers on to these wonderful writers (most of which I consider even better than JKR). Tamora Pierce: She writes very strong female heroines (three dimensional too). Her male heroes ain't nothin' to sneeze at either ;) The Tortall Series: Song of the Lioness Quartet: Alanna: The First Adventure In the Hand of the Goddess The Woman Who Rides Like A Man Lioness Rampant The Immortals Quartet: Wild Magic Wolf-Speaker Emperor Mage The Realms of the Gods Protector of the Small Quartet: First Test Page Squire Lady Knight Trickster Duo: Trickster's Choice Trickster's Queen Emelan Series: (Circle of Magic) Sandry's Book Briar's Book Tris's Book Daja's Book (Circle Opens) Magic Steps Street Magic Shatterglass Cold Fire Garth Nix (Rather dark, but his characters are well-rounded and his women are very strong) Sabriel Lirael Abhorsen Robin McKinley (She's written too many books to name here, but most of them are re-tellings of fairy tales and folk tales) Terry Pratchett has three 'young adult' books I highly recommend: Maurice and His Educated Rodents, The Wee Free Men, and A Hat Full of Sky (They all take place on Discworld) Lynne Flewelling: The Bone Doll's Twin Hidden Warrior (The following have a male/male relationship) Luck in the Shadows Stalking Darkness Traitor's Moon There's also a series by Judith (I think her first name is) Milliers which I haven't read, but is on my list of books to read. A friend loaned me a book by Alexander McCall Smith called 'The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency (it's the first in a series). Haven't read it yet, but she says it's very light & easy to read (it's not fantasy). Have fun, Parker