ZZZZZZZZ (was A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets

[Talisman]

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Kneasy in message 2691

>Oh - an aside. There are suggestions that there's a cup in the 
>Trophy Room that is the Hufflepuff job cunningly disguised. Um.
>This would require that Tom stole the Huffs Cup, Hiccupsed it and 
>then sneaked it into Hogwarts when no-one was looking. Doubtful IMO.


Talisman, who actually doesn't enjoy the re-chew/redux circuit:

Loathe as I am to pit my poor slipping mental powers against your 
razor sharp acumen, I suppose I must champion my little theory.

You find it doubtful that the TR Trophy Cup is the Hufflepuff Cup Hx 
in disguise?

And your reasoning is thus:

Kneasy reason 1. "This would require that Tom stole the Huffs 
Cup..." 

Talisman: But of course DD's evidence, both explanatory and 
Pensievision, are meant to show that Riddle obtained both the locket 
and the cup after poisoning Hepzibah.  Surely, therefore, the act 
having been shown to be accomplished, a need for theft is no 
impediment.

Kneasy reason 2. "This would require that Tom...Hiccupsed it..."

Talisman: That would be the only reason TR had any interest at all 
in the Hufflepuff gear: his fixation with Hogwarts / its founders 
and the need for suitable Hx items.  

Surely you don't doubt that he followed his "7 is the most magical 
number" plan and made the requisite Hxes.  Why then do you doubt, or 
find it improbable, that he made the cup--which he killed for and 
clearly possessed--into such an item?  

It seems to me you'd be feeling those sand-filled socks beating 
about your head again.

Kneasy reason 3. "This would require that Tom...sneaked it into 
Hogwarts when no-one was looking."

Talisman: We've seen that TR did indeed visit Hogwarts after the 
time he had gained control of the Hufflepuff Cup.  We don't know if 
this was the only visit, but certainly  a fair few years elapsed 
between the Smith episode and the point where LV was in all out 
warfare with DD.

Riddle tried to obtain a teaching position at Hogwarts when he was 
18  (HBP 432) and thereafter turned up working for Borgin & Burkes.  

It's not clear how long Riddle worked for the firm before Hepzebah 
showed him her treasures, but he is described as a "young man" not 
much different in appearance than the school-aged Riddle with whose 
appearance Harry was familiar. (434)

So give it a couple of years.  He's ~20.

Hepzebah was dead within two days of showing the goods--and Riddle 
had both the cup and the locket. (438) 

Hxes ensued.

DD shows Harry an occasion wherein TR visited the School.  At that 
time, DD was Headmaster.  This means it was sometime after the time 
when Lupin had become a werewolf.  

We don't know at what age Lupin was bitten, but we do know his 
parents tried to find cures and worried that he would not be able to 
attend Hogwarts.  Rowling can do what she likes, but the text leaves 
me with the impression that he was at least within spitting distance 
of starting school before DD was made HM and smoothed out all the 
trouble.

I'm not sure it's worthwhile to be overly fastidious with these 
sorts of numbers, there being no evidence that Rowling is, but:

LV was 66 in Book 2

Post GoF Rowling indicated that Snape [and therefore Lupin et al] 
was 35-6.  Concomittantly, LV would be about 68 at this time. 

That means Lupin was born when LV was about 32.

If Riddle obtained the cup a few years after joining Borgin and 
Burkes, when he was around 20, he'd have had 12 years to make it 
into a HX and replace his trophy cup with it.

Add 5-10 years, because Lupin was not bitten at birth, and you've 
got somewhere between 17 and 22 years in which the switch could have 
been made.

Years in which LV was not in open warfare with DD or the established 
Wizarding community.  Years in which, for the most part, DD was not 
even  Headmaster.

Again, we've been shown that TR visited Hogwarts at least twice 
after graduating.  Once before he had the cup, and once after. 

We've been told that his bid for the DADA job was really a bid to 
get close to other "founders" objects. (505)  Clearly he was 
visiting with Hxes on the mind.  

We have no reason to believe we have been given an accounting of 
every visit he made, rather we have been given a precedent for 
believing that he was, indeed, free to visit.

I personally don't find it hard to believe, at all, that a prize 
winning student would visit the school trophy room to see the old 
hardware.  Happens all the time in the RW.  Nothing the least bit 
suspicious.

Nor do I find it hard to believe that TR/LV was capable of switching 
one cup for the other. Again, a Muggle could do it, let alone an 
accomplished wizard.


The WW was not at war; we have neither reason to think that there 
was any unusual security in place, nor that TR would even have been 
escorted, had he chosen to saunter down to the trophy room.  

Your doubts are your own affair, but methinks, sir, they are 
unsupported.

Talisman, who also thinks the current topics have become exhausted 
and redundant and will let it all swirl around until something 
engaging kicks in.

PS
To Carolyn: DD's fierce concern with Hxes IS rather interesting, 
isn't it. He's been thinking about them from way back.  He's also 
been worrying about TR's needs since he met him. Kinda starts 
knitting some of my old ideas back together.  With small amendments.

Moreover, I don't buy the--lie--that he told Harry regarding Harry's 
need to get the Hx memory from Slughorn.  That information was 
surely not necessary for Hx-hating DD--who had already seen TR 
asking Sluggy about them, had already inspected the Diary, had 
already both searched out and destroyed the ring Hx, and was already 
looking for the locket Hx, etc.

This little number was just what his lies usually are, a 
manipulative tool.  Anyone could have gotten Slughorn drunk.  Even 
DD could have played the Lily card: "You don't want her to have died 
in vain, Harry's The Chosen One, we must help him, etc."

No, what DD wanted was for Harry, himself, to assert that he is The 
Chosen One, for Harry to accept the mantle.  That's what that little 
task was all about. That's the only thing that no one else but Harry 
could do.

Pull those strings DD.