What If He Didn't Tell All?
severelysigune
severelysigune at severelysigune.yahoo.invalid
Thu Aug 4 12:45:14 UTC 2005
Sigune:
This reply is mighty late, but I needed some time to reflect on it.
As you said, right now canon evidence can lead either way and
anyone's Snape interpretation is determined by that person's view on
a character JKR leaves deliberately ambiguous. Reading your post, I
see that your Snape is definitely stronger and less petty than mine,
and that has its consequences.
<snip>
Kneasy:
<A nice wrinkle in chap. 2 is that Draino's objective is never
mentioned, which sets up doubts in the readers minds - deliberately
so, I'm sure. On first reading my reaction was "It'll be to do with
that Potter kid."
Bet others thought so too.
Has Voldy actually told Sevvy what he wants Draino to do? Or is Snape
pretending to know more than he actually does and is he assuming that
the target is Harry? If so this would make the DD-icide even bangier.
He's trapped by his own promise into doing something he never
envisaged. This could lead us into an horrendous swamp, very similar
to the 'magical contracts are unbreakable' impasse from GoF - if you
didn't agree to enter into the contract in the first place, how can
it possibly be binding?
Leading this time to: if an Unbreakable Vow is made but the vowers
think it refers to different things, what happens? The 'promiser' can
be considered to have fulfilled what he *believed* to have been the
vow, can't he? Because if he doesn't do what he thinks he's promised,
he's broken the vow based on what he thought he was committing
himself to.
Hm. Difficult.>
Sigune:
It is. We know very little about the terms of the Unbreakable Vow
such as, for example, is it really entirely unbreakable? (Couldn't a
wizard of Dumbledore's stature have lifted it? If so, it's entirely
more sensible that Snape should have informed him of everything.)
Does breaking the Vow mean that you die on the spot (struck by
lightning or something) the moment you fail to fulfil (any part of)
the promise or does it mean you'll be doomed to come to a sticky
end at some indefinite point in the future? (If it's the second, that
might be called to support the speculation about the AK not being
what it looks and having actually failed.)
As for the fact that the precise contents of Draco's mission is never
mentioned, I fail to be convinced by the assumption that Snape didn't
know what it was all about. The chapter *had to be* vague not only
because JKR wishes to keep Snape's loyalties ambiguous, but also (if
I recall correctly you hate this kind of argument; I beg your pardon,
Kneasy) because making Draco's mission explicit in Chapter Two would
give away too much of the book's plot; because let's be fair, the
identity of the Half-Blood Prince wasn't much of a mystery (even *I*
thought it was obvious and that's saying something) and it couldn't
have kept the book going.
Kneasy:
<But I think he does know who the target is.
Sevvy gazes into Cissy's tear-filled baby blue eyes - and he's an ace
at Legilimancy. He knows. He might even see that Cissy means to bind
him with a UV.>
Sigune:
Legilimency is very convenient, isn't it? :-)
However: although we have been repeatedly told that Snape is an ace
at *Occlumency* we don't know his skill at Legilimency equals that.
If it does, it becomes harder to maintain that he didn't know about
the Vanishing Cabinets after the Christmas chat or do we assume
Auntie Bella turned dear Draco into a real expert Occlumens?
Also: awareness of Cissy's intention to bind him with an Unbreakable
Vow doesn't imply that he also knows exactly what clauses she is
going to include.
On a similar issue that of whether or not Snape would at all be
able to keep things from Dumbledore-the-Legilimens, ewe2 wrote:
<One question I would ask here, although I can't see how it can be
substantiated from current canon, is whether Dumbledore is a better
Legilimens than Snape's Occulumens. It is doubtful that Snape would
be unaware of such an attempt (even Draco's training affords him that
ability, and isn't it interesting that Bella trained him?), but it is
an outside possibility. JKR has made much of DD's trust (and
therefore the likelihood of DD not making an attempt at Legilimency),
but I cannot think that Snape could entirely fool him, whether he
wanted to believe Snape's story or not.>
Sigune again:
The answer to this depends, I should say, on whether or not
Dumbledore is a better Legilimens than Voldemort. We know that Snape
has been able to fool Voldemort from the tender age of, what, twenty
the age at which he defected. I am inclined to assume that a really
good Occlumens can hide even the fact that he is pushing some
memories/thoughts away.
I tend to think that yes, Snape is a better Occlumens than Dumbledore
is a Legilimens; that is why Dumbledore *has to* trust Snape. If he
could simply X-ray him then the endlessly repeated stress on the
whole `trust' matter would be a bit superfluous.
<snip excellent explanation of Voldie's motives for targeting Dumbly,
not Harry>
Kneasy:
<Just how weakened is DD? Send in a volunteer, a disposable
volunteer, to find out. Sevvy may even exaggerated the debilitating
effects of the injury
- just as he denigrates Harry's magical abilities.
"That's all very well," you'll say, "but stop whittering and say if
you think Sevvy told DD that he'd promised to do the dirty deed if
Draco didn't."
Yes. I think he did.
I think he told him everything.
And DD made his plans accordingly.
Draco is nasty but inept. He has delusions of adequacy. Bet DD thinks
so too, though he might not use the same words. Draco will fail; DD
knows it, Snape knows it and so does Cissy. DD can't offer Draino
help until the little creep actually tries and fails, and through
sheer force of personality DD ensures that young Malfoy doesn't even
try to pot a sitting duck.
There's Malfoy with a helpless DD at his mercy and he chickens out.
Snape arrives. Now the S. Snape we all know and love - what would be
his reaction, all other things being equal. He'd bully Malfoy. He'd
more or less force him to cast the AK. "Fulfill your master's
wishes, you horrible little scrote!" That way the Unbreakable Vow
never gets invoked, Snape is free and clear, Draino doesn't get
special attention from Voldy, DD is dead and all the DEs cheer. But
that's not what happens; Sevvy ignores Malfoy, except to push him out
of the way; he regards DD. For what? Assessing his physical state? Is
DD likely to survive that Potion? Then comes revulsion, hatred and an
AK.>
Sigune:
Hm. I don't accept Snape shoving Malfoy out of the way and offing
Dumbledore himself as proof of the fact that it was planned that way.
Goading Draco on would be the thing to do for ESE!Snape, Snape-the-
enthusiastic-Death Eater. The Snape who keeps Malfoy from killing is
the one who agreed to protect him and the man Dumbledore trusts he
keeps the miserable little bugger from tainting his soul at the age
of sixteen. Somehow I think that's what Dumbledore would have wanted.
Forcing Draco to cast the AK would certainly have been the easy way
out for Snape. Goodness would he have a conscience after all? ;-)
Kneasy:
<Revulsion and hatred for what? For DD or for what has happened to
him and for he who was responsible for it? I like to think it's the
latter. And I also like to think that there was a previous agreement
between the two - "If I get something terminally nasty - DO IT!" He
survives the hand through Snape's efforts - even so it can't be
cured. What else might he run into? Nothing pleasant, that's for
sure. ('Course, if the Potion is curable, then we're into a different
ball-game entirely.)
Right at that moment who will be more use to Harry in the future? A
dying/dead DD or a strong Snape behind enemy lines? No contest.
Everyone is expendable - except Harry.>
Sigune:
It does make sense, but I still do have a quibble with this:
How could the Marvellous Duo know Dumbledore would be near death at
the time of Draco's definitive attempt? Even if you assume that Snape
*told* Draco to strike on Dumbledore's return from the cave, there is
still the issue of the Vanishing Cabinets about which Snape knew
nothing and the fixing of which delayed Draco's `earnest' try. Draco
strikes that night because the Cabinets are fixed, not because
Dumbledore has been out hunting Hopsickles.
Or would you suggest that Dumbledore told Snape to just forget about
Draco and just kill him as soon as he somehow ended up terminally
ill? But if it hadn't been for the Cabinets carrying Death Eaters,
Dumbledore would have got to Snape in time and he would have been (at
least partially) healed.
I think it is still equally, if not more, likely that the decision
between Saving Dying Dumbledore or Snape Behind Enemy Lines lay with
Snape, not Dumbledore.
Kneasy:
<One thing you can say about DD - he plans ahead. And that plan might
include a little extra. The absence of Fawkes is a sign, IMO. DD
attacked and no guardian dicky-bird? How likely is that? Not very.
Unless it was arranged.>
Sigune:
Or he was simply resigned. "Tu quoque, fili mi? Ah well I'm done
for anyway." Or, after his initial doubt, the exchange of looks (with
the possibility of Legilimency, which I admit I skipped over in my
original post) conveys Snape's intentions to him and he agrees.
Kneasy:
<He *chose* to die. No struggle, no avoidance.
Last time somebody did that it put a spoke in Voldy's wheel.
Something to look out for in book 7?>
Sigune:
I sincerely hope so :-).
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