Detecting magic (was: re AKs and Horcrux!Harry and soul-ripping )

[pippin_999]

> Eloise:
> Except that the Muggle authorities were just mystified and there's 
> not really much danger that they would have made the jump to assume 
> that they were magical murders, was there? If the MOM simply kept 
> their distance, then  what harm could it do? If they got involved, 
> then on canon evidence so far, that involvement would presumably
mean  making the PM (who is the only member of government, save any 
individuals who might have family connections, with knowledge of
the existence of the WW) aware and hushing the thing up. That doesn't 
seem to have happened.

Pippin:
The Riddle murder did attract some attention, due to its
sensational circumstances. Three people, apparently
frightened to death? Sounds like a tabloid headline to me.
Surely the London authorities (that would be Scotland
Yard, right?) would be involved.

But any wizard who heard about it would guess at once  
that a wizard murderer was on the loose. That would 
put pressure on the MOM to act. But the Bryce disappearance did not 
attract attention from anybody and there was no evidence, even for 
wizards, that magic was involved. As far as the MOM was concerned, 
Morfin was the Riddle murderer, and since he was long dead, there was 
no reason to think that the Bryce disappearance, fifty years later,
had anything to do with wizards.

 
> > Pippin:
> > Voldemort's servants have risen high in the ministry, and are
> > presumably better able to  shield themselves from detection
> > than when they were all Hogwarts students.

Eloise: 
> Do we have any evidence for current DEs in the MOM? Or do you mean 
> that the past, people like Rookwood facilitated anti-detection 
> methods? Or do you believe in ESE!Fudge? ;-)
> 

Pippin:
"and it's very important for us to have spies in the Ministry, because
you can bet Voldemort will have them." -- OOP ch 5
and no, I don't think Fudge is ESE.

 
> > Pippin:
> > Wasn't the official line was that he'd died of a freak accident?

Eloise:
> Yes. But what kind of a freak accident? Muggle authorities wouldn't 
> just accept a freak accident as cause without some kind of 
> investigation. If you and Dumbledore are right, then magic always 
> leaves a mark, so there must have been evidence that Cedric's death 
> was magical. Fudge was already wary of Harry. I'm surprised the 
> Hogwarts mutterings didn't turn into something more substantial in 
> the hands of the MOM. Lord knows, they tried to libel him enough 
> (through the Prophet) in OoP.
> 

Pippin:
The TWT was a highly dangerous, at your own risk activity, and
participants had been warned they would be risking their lives.
Most people didn't know what kind of hazards were inside the
maze. It would be at least plausible that Cedric had died by 
misadventure. But if the MoM tried to prosecute Harry, then they'd 
be granting Dumbledore a forum to present his version. As we've
seen, he can mount quite an effective defense.

So they went with the whisper campaign and let people draw their 
own conclusions. Anyway, Amos Diggory is a ministry employee. If 
he started pressing for an investigation, he'd lose his job, and as 
Sirius was saying above, the Order needs all the friends in the 
Ministry it can get. It would be a poor way to honor
Cedric's memory, if Amos was expelled from the ministry and could
no longer pursue justice on behalf of the living.

> Eloise:

> The inconsistency is that the charge was capable of being brought.
If  the charge was dependent on there being a witness, then
Dumbledore was negligent in not demanding prosecution evidence. 
That he didn't suggests that he accepted that the MOM was capable of 
detecting  a specific individual doing magic in the presence of a
Muggle. It would  have been far easier to demolish the case by
demanding  the testimony  of a witness for the prosecution than 
to bring on his own  rather  dubious and risky defence witness 
to perjure herself.


Pippin:
There were two charges -- underage magic
doesn't depend on a Muggle being present. Assuming
the Ministry detected the  patronus charm independent
of Umbridge's meddling, they would have a reasonably 
solid case. The other one, violating the
Statute of Secrecy, is more serious, and would require the
prosecution to prove the presence of a Muggle. But that the 
wizard was in danger of his life is a defense against both charges.

Realistic courtroom procedures would be far too tedious for a Harry
Potter book, thank goodness! But supposing there were such things,
it would make sense for the defense to stipulate that Dudley was
present, even though it would moot the point of how the MoM learned
he was there. Pig tail, flying car, ton-tongue toffees, highly
irregular and possibly illicit connection of a Muggle fireplace to
the floo network, the destruction of his parents' living room, oh
dear!  Dudley is aware of a number of things which would be better 
left quiet, I should think. 

And Dudley, even if he were brought into court, could not have
testified that there were dementors present of his own knowledge. He
thought Harry was attacking him, and would have said so.

Mrs. Figg, despite her unfortunate decision to embroider her
testimony, actually  did know of her own knowledge that they were 
there.  "And now look! Dementors!" - OOP ch 2
 
> Eloise:
> We did. And I agree that in normal circumstances, one must need 
> malice to perform the Unforgivables.

Pippin:
I'm not sure there are any exceptions -- I don't think they work
without some malicious intent. You might, purely out of the goodness 
of your heart, want to use Imperius on someone -- to get them to quit
drinking, for example. Or you might attempt to use Crucio as Harry
did,  purely out of righteous anger.

 But I think Bella's right. I don't think the magic would work.
There's some malice evident  even  in Fake!Moody's demonstrations of 
Imperius-- all the students are made look ridiculous  in some way,
even Neville, because   it was *him* doing extraordinary gymnastics.

It'd be interesting to know if it was AK that the real Moody used
when he sometimes had to kill.

Pippin