From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec  1 19:10:37 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 20:10:37 +0100
Subject: Got a question...
Message-ID: <200512012010.37669.silmariel@...>


Could a thestral be a Patronus? if so, would you need to see thestrals in 
order to see it (that's the interesting part, of course)?

Silmariel 





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec  1 20:51:41 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:51:41 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <200512012010.37669.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dmnnot+sucm@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> Could a thestral be a Patronus? if so, would you need to see 
thestrals in 
> order to see it (that's the interesting part, of course)?
> 
> Silmariel
>
Ginger:

Wow.  Just when I thought my brain couldn't hurt any more than it 
did. (Sudoku addiction).

That's a great question.  My guess would be that you would see 
slivery stuff, but not be able to distinguish its shape.  

Now for a follow-wp question:  Why would someone have that as a 
patronus, and what would it tell us about that person?

This sounds like one for JKR.  I'd love to hear her take on it.

Thanks for the brain twister, 
Ginger, who has missed work twice this week due to ice storms!







From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec  1 23:11:01 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 00:11:01 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmnnot+sucm@...>
References: <dmnnot+sucm@...>
Message-ID: <200512020011.01957.silmariel@...>

> Ginger:
>
> Wow.  Just when I thought my brain couldn't hurt any more than it
> did. (Sudoku addiction).
>
> That's a great question.  My guess would be that you would see
> slivery stuff, but not be able to distinguish its shape.  
>

As soon as I had the question in mind, I knew this was the group for it... 
it's derived from my little obsession about Snape's patronus, and death in 
general, this year.

But I think it's nice because it wouldn't go against her own rules if JKR 
chose to use it as a misdirection mean. It may seem as a noncorporeal 
patronus, or may not be seen, and in that case, we have the unfortunate 
caster in a position of doubt (in the case he is using the Patronus for 
communication, not everyone will testify that he did).

> Now for a follow-up question:  Why would someone have that as a
> patronus, and what would it tell us about that person?
>

That s/he has an incredible sense of orientation? *cough*

In a serious way, that I don't know if JKR has considered but it is not 
completely out of this world if Merope just left herself die, it can be a 
person that has been involved a lot in death themes, someone who is not 
really tied to life, or someone who has had a real -hi Tonks!- change in 
patronus. A kind of experience that changes your perspective of life in an 
irrevocable way. 

> This sounds like one for JKR.  I'd love to hear her take on it.
>

Yes lol I'd love to see her face if asked this question.

> Thanks for the brain twister,
> Ginger, who has missed work twice this week due to ice storms!

A pleasure. *Freezes* I live in a very very warm mediterranean area. Can't 
even imagine how it is.

I haven't written lately because I've started a project in the way of a 
fantasy novel and it's an absorbing task (and a lot of work). So you won't 
see me very much here and no way on TOL.

Silmariel




From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 08:55:20 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 08:55:20 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <200512020011.01957.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dmp25o+gja8@...>

I, Ginger, wrote:
> > Now for a follow-up question:  Why would someone have that as a
> > patronus, and what would it tell us about that person?
> >

Silmariel replied:
> That s/he has an incredible sense of orientation? *cough*
> 
> In a serious way, that I don't know if JKR has considered but it is 
not 
> completely out of this world if Merope just left herself die, it 
can be a 
> person that has been involved a lot in death themes, someone who is 
not 
> really tied to life, or someone who has had a real -hi Tonks!- 
change in 
> patronus. A kind of experience that changes your perspective of 
life in an 
> irrevocable way. 

Ginger now:
I'd wonder if it was someone who had a loved one die in order to save 
that person.  In other words, the person's death was the protection 
more than the person themselves.  Just a guess.  
 
Silmariel continues:
> I haven't written lately because I've started a project in the way 
of a 
> fantasy novel and it's an absorbing task (and a lot of work). So 
you won't 
> see me very much here and no way on TOL.

Ginger:  I read one of those once.  Very time consuming...Oh, you 
mean writing one!  Well, best wishes to you.

Ginger, dreaming of a warm climate







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 10:52:31 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:52:31 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <200512020011.01957.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dmp91f+piki@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:
> 
> As soon as I had the question in mind, I knew this was the group for it... 
> it's derived from my little obsession about Snape's patronus, and death in 
> general, this year.
> 

Interesting.
If ole Sevvy has a Thestral as Patronus then - yes, it fits in neatly with
Blackwidower Theory - those he saw die (at Voldy's instigation if not
directly by Voldy's hand) being Snape's own wife and son.

Mind you, I can see a few Billywigs in the unguent.
For a start we assume that the form of Patronus is decided more or
less from the time of character development or even earlier. Unless
the poor bugger has had at least one childhood episode watching
somebody die -  well, when he/she gets around to learning how to
produce one they'll never know that they succeeded - it'll be invisible.
Frustrating or what? And if like Harry he were asked to produce a 
Patronus under exam conditions some of the examiners might not be 
able to see it either. 
"Sorry, Snape. You've failed this part."
"But sir! I did it! It's just that my Patronus is invisible!"
"Pull the other one, lad - it's got bells on."

Secondly - can Dementors 'see'  a Threstral - real or Patronic?
If they  can't - well, there ain't much point in having one.

Additionally herself has restricted Patronic forms to real, non-magical
beasties - so far at least. Oh, most fans suspect, probably correctly, that
DD  has a  Phoenix Pat, but it's never actually been spelled out, and he
could be a special case. Everyone else seems to be stuck with boring
old stags, otters, hamsters and the like. If magical beasts were allowed
a dragon form would be a fun thing to play around with, or even having
your own pet Dementor Patronus - just so long as it didn't go feral and 
join it's pals in making your life a misery. 
Yup. If Marvin the Paranoid Android has a Patronus, it's a Dementor.
 
Kneasy






From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 13:42:18 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:42:18 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmp91f+piki@...>
References: <dmp91f+piki@...>
Message-ID: <200512021411.58013.silmariel@...>

El Vie 02 Dic 2005 11:52, Barry Arrowsmith escribi?:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:
> > As soon as I had the question in mind, I knew this was the group for
> > it... it's derived from my little obsession about Snape's patronus, and
> > death in general, this year.
>
> Interesting.
> If ole Sevvy has a Thestral as Patronus then - yes, it fits in neatly with
> Blackwidower Theory - those he saw die (at Voldy's instigation if not
> directly by Voldy's hand) being Snape's own wife and son.
>

Wouldn't it be nice that when Remus enlightened us with the possibility of a 
changing Patronus, he was speaking about Snape? You know I'm in the 
Blackwidower camp.

> Mind you, I can see a few Billywigs in the unguent.
> For a start we assume that the form of Patronus is decided more or
> less from the time of character development or even earlier. Unless
> the poor bugger has had at least one childhood episode watching
> somebody die -  well, when he/she gets around to learning how to
> produce one they'll never know that they succeeded - it'll be invisible.
> Frustrating or what? 

Ups.

The thing is, I don't know if it is a bad translation but I've opened FBAWTFT 
(Spanish version, I mean) and it states (in the winged horses section) that 
thestrals are able to make themselves invisible, not exactly that they are 
invisible till certain requirements are met. It maybe an incorrect 
translation, it maybe a flint, but I understand there is a small window 
opened for them being visible -if they happen to want to- so you *might* be 
able to see your own patronus.

But it may be invisible. Frustrating, quite. You may end having to learn how 
it feels producing it correctly... a liability that forces you to develop and 
rely on resources the average wizard doesn't even consider. An interesting 
duelist, I suposse, but overdoing Snape -he already has enough power.

<snips hilarious scene, hoping some of the examiners are able to see it and 
they are not sleeping at that moment>

> Secondly - can Dementors 'see'  a Threstral - real or Patronic?
> If they  can't - well, there ain't much point in having one.
>

I considered this, but I don't find reasons for Dementors not seeing 
Threstrals. Nothing can be more aware of death than a Dementor. Actually I 
think it's a kind of joke to consider that the Dementor's Kiss is not direct 
killing, it's like, they were made of that material. 

> Additionally herself has restricted Patronic forms to real, non-magical
> beasties - so far at least. Oh, most fans suspect, probably correctly, that
> DD  has a  Phoenix Pat, but it's never actually been spelled out, and he
> could be a special case. 

Another ups. That I simply assumed from the white tomb. I also assumed that he 
was a special case, but the point is, Snape is special. 

> Everyone else seems to be stuck with boring
> old stags, otters, hamsters and the like. If magical beasts were allowed
> a dragon form would be a fun thing to play around with, or even having
> your own pet Dementor Patronus - just so long as it didn't go feral and
> join it's pals in making your life a misery.
> Yup. If Marvin the Paranoid Android has a Patronus, it's a Dementor.

Honestly I prefer a dragon - but I had to toy with Thestrals, they suit Snape 
so much. Of course, I wanted it a black dragon, but they come in silver.

I've just found this one, who has black in the name:

Hebridean Black - wings similar to that of a bat - feeds mostly on stags - 
ocasionally hunts big dogs *cough**cough**cough* 

Bip. A dementor is not listed a beast. Pity that a boggart isn't or we could 
end in Ridikkulus.

Silmariel



From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 14:19:10 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (a_silmariel)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:19:10 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <200512021411.58013.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dmpl4u+c1ai@...>


P.S. I've reread FBAWTFT prologue (while waiting for yahoomort to
decide to eat my post or not). It's like hearing a phantom. If that's
Albus portrait, it really is convincing that he is alive. I feel that
the last line has gained weight. To wizards, I will just say: 'draco
dormiens nunquam titillandus'. But the point is, it is signed. Kind of
itchy if it's a reproduction, kind of surrealistic for a portrait.

Silmariel






From heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 14:55:54 2005
From: heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 06:55:54 -0800
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmpl4u+c1ai@...>
References: <dmpl4u+c1ai@...>
Message-ID: <1133535357.1801DEF0@...>


On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 9:39 am, a_silmariel wrote:
>
> P.S. I've reread FBAWTFT prologue (while waiting for yahoomort to
> decide to eat my post or not). It's like hearing a phantom.


For years many argued that Dumbledore couldn't be killed in the books 
because of the schoolbooks, but I'm afraid it is going to turn into one 
of JKR's "ew, maths!" inconsistancies. Perhaps she can justify it 
because he would still have been alive in 1996 when she sold her first 
book?



From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 15:15:00 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:15:00 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmpl4u+c1ai@...>
Message-ID: <dmpodk+1lq0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "a_silmariel" <silmariel at t...>
wrote:
>
> 
> P.S. I've reread FBAWTFT prologue (while waiting for yahoomort to
> decide to eat my post or not). It's like hearing a phantom. If that's
> Albus portrait, it really is convincing that he is alive. I feel that
> the last line has gained weight. To wizards, I will just say: 'draco
> dormiens nunquam titillandus'. But the point is, it is signed. Kind of
> itchy if it's a reproduction, kind of surrealistic for a portrait.
> 
> Silmariel
>

O.o

I'd forgotten about Albus writing that intro.  Jo is *not* allowed to
take that kind of poetic (or literary?) license!  Not to mention, I
thought Constance Vigilance's "DD Lives" arguments very, very
plausible -- it's like looking at one of those optical illusion
pictures where you can see two completely different images in it
(there's a very well-known one where it sometimes looks like a young
woman at a vanity and sometimes looks like a skull).  As far as I can
tell, the whole story makes good sense so far with either the DD Lives
perspective or the DD's Dead perspective.

---

Back to the Thestral patronus... I would think that anyone who might
have that patronus would actually be able to see thestrals -- that the
person would almost have to have that intimate connection with death
before they would ever produce a thestral patronus.  As for sending
messages with one, I believe JKR said DD invented that technique, and
I'd be very surprised if there was anyone in the Order who wouldn't be
able to see it.

And, yeah. If DD's patronus turns out not to actually be a phoenix,
I'll eat all three of my copies of OoP.  Jo did say it flat out in the
World Book Day chat.

Anne








From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 15:59:22 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:59:22 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <200512021411.58013.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dmpr0q+4huv@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice that when Remus enlightened us with the possibility of a 
> changing Patronus, he was speaking about Snape? You know I'm in the 
> Blackwidower camp.
> 

Huh. Not very keen on this 'changing Patronus' lark. Seems like very dodgy
plotting to me - that's if it's true. Can't say that I accept everything that
Remus says as unblemished fact. Yeah, he's probably intended as a
suffering, unjustly despised/feared character, bearing up bravely under
the burden of an incurable affliction. So what? I still don't like him. Too
meek, mild and smarmy by half except when the moon shines brightly 
when he reverts to what is probably his true personality - a ravening 
monster. With a bit of luck it'll turn out to be the opposite of what we 
expect - in reality he's a child-eating, rabidly vicious wolf who was bitten
by a liberal, causing him to spend most of his time as an interferring
do-gooder.


> 
> The thing is, I don't know if it is a bad translation but I've opened FBAWTFT 
> (Spanish version, I mean) and it states (in the winged horses section) that 
> thestrals are able to make themselves invisible, not exactly that they are 
> invisible till certain requirements are met. It maybe an incorrect 
> translation, it maybe a flint, but I understand there is a small window 
> opened for them being visible -if they happen to want to- so you *might* be 
> able to see your own patronus.
> 

Um.
Could well be a dodgy translation.
The Lexicon confirms the impression I had - Thestrals can only be seen by
those that have seen death.

> 
> Honestly I prefer a dragon - but I had to toy with Thestrals, they suit Snape 
> so much. Of course, I wanted it a black dragon, but they come in silver.
> 
> I've just found this one, who has black in the name:
> 
> Hebridean Black - wings similar to that of a bat - feeds mostly on stags - 
> ocasionally hunts big dogs *cough**cough**cough* 
> 

Good oh. 
Bring Sirius back from the dead so that he can be a spit-roasted munchie.
Serve him right. (I *really* don't like Sirius. Whinging traitorous creep IMO.)
And if Harry ends up as the pudding course, so be it. Got to encourage these
endangered species - rich diversity of life, and all that. And when it comes 
down to it what's another wizard here or there? 

I've been waiting for 2 books to revel in the blood-boultered, gore-encrusted
Weasley cull. Long overdue, I think. Why have so many of 'em unless they're
going to end up as Veil-fodder? Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch. "Charlie, 
Gred, Forge, Percy and Ginny Weasley - this is a good day for something 
horrible to happen to  you."
Gives me a warm glow just thinking about it. Throw in Luna and that Creevey
creep and my cup will runneth over.  
 
> Bip. A dementor is not listed a beast. Pity that a boggart isn't or we could 
> end in Ridikkulus.
> 

Damn.
She's spoiling the fun again.


Kneasy






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 17:45:53 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:45:53 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmpr0q+4huv@...>
Message-ID: <dmq18h+1unm@...>

Kneasy wrote:

> With a bit of luck it'll turn out to be the opposite of what we 
> expect - in reality he's a child-eating, rabidly vicious wolf who 
was bitten
> by a liberal, causing him to spend most of his time as an 
interferring
> do-gooder.

A liberal wouldn't bite.  Shouldn't that be "...was subjected to a 
progressive tax regime by..."?

Presumably a Thestral patronus would be effective only against those 
Dementors that had lost a loved one - unfair, but there it is.

David, who thinks that JKR has been saving her most terrifying 
creation for Book 7: the Interferi






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  2 20:07:28 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:07:28 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmq18h+1unm@...>
Message-ID: <dmq9i0+9d1o@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> 
> A liberal wouldn't bite.  

Really?
Maybe you know best - though whenever I have a chat to one they
always seem to end up foaming at the mouth and chewing the furniture.
Odd that. Perhaps it was something I said. 

> Shouldn't that be "...was subjected to a progressive tax regime by..."?

Ooh, yes please! An extra 5% for owning a Volvo, 10% for naming your
kids Damien or Clarissa, 15% to pay for the counselling to stressed-out
nesting spuggits bothered by Bill Oddie look-a-likes, 20% for wearing a 
Fair-Isle sweater and the full 50% if they work at the BBC. Seems fair.
 
> 
> Presumably a Thestral patronus would be effective only against those 
> Dementors that had lost a loved one - unfair, but there it is.
> 

Quite possibly.
Though since Dementors thrive on misery, shouldn't that be 'lost
someone they heartily disliked"? There's nothing so vulnerable as a
happy Dementor.

Kneasy






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec  3 05:58:50 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 05:58:50 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <200512021411.58013.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dmrc6q+gm3g@...>

--- In message 3455 of the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel 
<silmariel at t...> wrote: 

[Considering suitable boggarts for Snape] 

>Hebridean Black - wings similar to that of a bat - feeds mostly on 
>stags -ocasionally hunts big dogs *cough**cough**cough*


Talisman:
Oh, yes ma'am. 

Back in Feb. 2004, peeps on TOL were discussing the meaning of 
*Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus,* and whether it was literal or 
metaphorical.  I noted, in message 90429: 

>No reason why a metaphor can't be played out in the plot.

>There is always Harry's little observation that "Deliberately
>causing mayhem in Snape's potions class was about as safe as poking
>a sleeping dragon in the eye." (CoS 186)

>Nice comparison, eh? Snape/sleeping dragon.

Talisman: Cheered considerably by the notion of tickling Snape, 
awake or asleep.


P.S. To Charme:
Just catching up with posts, and saw your #3442:
>I wanted you to know that I read your posts (Barry, Lyn, Talisman, 
>Catlady, Susan Albrecht, Eustace-Scrubb, pippin, and the others) 
>often out loud to other adult Potterheads who were in shelters or 
>hotels where I stayed during my work with the team - it became an 
>almost nightly affair in a huge shelter for 3 weeks. <Snip of many 
kind words.<

A couple of thoughts hit me simultaneously while reading your post.

1) Although many of us have become spoiled and mutinous of late, we 
ought to refresh our awareness of the gratitude we owe JKR for 
creating what Kneasy has called this *playground* that eases all of 
our loads, and is the root source of all good that comes from both 
the books proper, and all discussion of them. 

2) What a lovely little alchemist you are, Charme.  Taking our idle 
chatter and turning it into a blessing for disaster victims.  Then, 
allowing us the happy sense of having done something worthwhile.  
That's quite a lot of knitting from a little yarn. It's like getting 
a lovely return when you didn't even know you had made an 
investment.  Thank you. 









From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec  3 12:31:53 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 13:31:53 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] DD / Thestrals  / Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dmrc6q+gm3g@...>
References: <dmrc6q+gm3g@...>
Message-ID: <200512031331.53044.silmariel@...>

Heidi:
>For years many argued that Dumbledore couldn't be killed in the books 
>because of the schoolbooks, but I'm afraid it is going to turn into one 
>of JKR's "ew, maths!" inconsistancies. Perhaps she can justify it 
>because he would still have been alive in 1996 when she sold her first 
>book?

I have to agree with Anne on this one, is too big an error or a poetic 
license. You can't kill a character like DD and don't do it well, people has 
cried for him. (Not me :p I was busy being happy for Snape & Draco surviving)

This would be a mayor flaw, imo.

That's why I thought in portraits, pensieves (no way DD's ghost, totally OOC) 
or whatever could justify it, but it's weird nonetheless. (Help!)

Anne:
>I'd forgotten about Albus writing that intro <> As far as I can
>tell, the whole story makes good sense so far with either the DD Lives
>perspective or the DD's Dead perspective.

I had completely forgotten about the intro.

I agree there's an open posibility for DD's return, I think we all know the 
arguments. She wants me to be surprised in the future? Fine, she has laid out 
(in the books) the chance. My main objections are based on JKR's words 
outside the books - but of course, as with Snape, Tonks, and all the family, 
she can't be really clear or she'll spoil the fun.

But I have no problem whatsoever with DD being dead so I had accepted it, 
period. That's why I was kind of shocked while reading the prologue. It had 
turned from a fuzzy future image by our full-discourse-mode (that makes me 
disconnect after a while) DD into a Last Words. 

Those who are convinced that DD lives won't read it in the same way, I think.

Anne:
>And, yeah. If DD's patronus turns out not to actually be a phoenix,
>I'll eat all three of my copies of OoP.  Jo did say it flat out in the
>World Book Day chat.

Thanks. Without this bit, it gets really difficult to construct the rest.

Anne:
>Back to the Thestral patronus... I would think that anyone who might
>have that patronus would actually be able to see thestrals -- that the
>person would almost have to have that intimate connection with death
>before they would ever produce a thestral patronus.

I like it. Theodore Nott being the unfortunate owner.

Talisman:
[Considering suitable boggarts for Snape] 

*cheers up*

>Hebridean Black - wings similar to that of a bat - feeds mostly on 
>stags -ocasionally hunts big dogs *cough**cough**cough*

Let's add that he needs a lot of space for himself.

Talisman:
>Oh, yes ma'am. 
>No reason why a metaphor can't be played out in the plot.
>There is always Harry's little observation that "Deliberately
>causing mayhem in Snape's potions class was about as safe as poking
>a sleeping dragon in the eye." (CoS 186)

Yes, I love that line. 

But a year ago, I didn't know what to do with such images, patronuses were 
non-magical animals, animagi was out of the question, the vampire imagery 
didn't make sense, and JKR sort of puzzled me not knowing why we made the 
vampire-Snape connection. Well, madam, because of the multiple details 
referencing vampire imagery, we had to make /something/ with them.

I rarely have the feeling that I don't need to consider other posibilities, 
but when I found that dragon I could heard the click of the puzzle pieces. I 
was trying to found sense to the dragon bits, and blip, they are tied to 
bats... all that damned references to bats and vampires made sense after all.

It even makes sense in the -arachnid was it?- way he moves. Have you ever seen 
a dragon walking in interiors?

Of all the things you can call a dragon, Harry, did you have to choose 
coward?... <g>

Silmariel, who wants to comment in another post about general chaos and 
mayhem, that is, she owes a reply to Kneasy.




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec  3 14:47:41 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:47:41 -0000
Subject: DD / Thestrals  / Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <200512031331.53044.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dmsb6d+kloq@...>

> Talisman:
> [Considering suitable boggarts for Snape] 
> 
> *cheers up*
> 
> >Hebridean Black - wings similar to that of a bat - feeds mostly on 
> >stags -ocasionally hunts big dogs *cough**cough**cough*
> 
> Let's add that he needs a lot of space for himself.
> 
> Talisman:
> >Oh, yes ma'am. 
> >No reason why a metaphor can't be played out in the plot.
> >There is always Harry's little observation that "Deliberately
> >causing mayhem in Snape's potions class was about as safe as poking
> >a sleeping dragon in the eye." (CoS 186)

Silmariel:
> Yes, I love that line. 
> 
> But a year ago, I didn't know what to do with such images, patronuses were 
> non-magical animals, animagi was out of the question, the vampire imagery 
> didn't make sense, and JKR sort of puzzled me not knowing why we made the 
> vampire-Snape connection. Well, madam, because of the multiple details 
> referencing vampire imagery, we had to make /something/ with them.
> 
> I rarely have the feeling that I don't need to consider other posibilities, 
> but when I found that dragon I could heard the click of the puzzle pieces. I 
> was trying to found sense to the dragon bits, and blip, they are tied to 
> bats... all that damned references to bats and vampires made sense after all.
> 
> It even makes sense in the -arachnid was it?- way he moves. Have you ever seen 
> a dragon walking in interiors?
> 
> Of all the things you can call a dragon, Harry, did you have to choose 
> coward?... <g>


Pippin:
Oooh! Good catch. If Snape is a dragon animagus it just might make sense out
of that out-of-sequence dragon memory in OOP...

"A great black dragon was rearing in front of him....His father and mother were
waving at him out of an enchanted mirror....Cedric Diggory was lying on the
ground with blank eyes staring at him...."

I've never liked the idea of animagus Snape because an animagus wouldn't
need to fear a werewolf. But if he's a gigantic dragon, then he wouldn't
dare transform in a space as cramped as the tunnel. Love it.

Pippin
who has cherished a tiny sliver of hope for Dumbledore, because while it's
true that the old guy with the beard always checks out, he has a disconcerting
habit of turning up again, one way or another. Merlin, Gandalf, Obi-wan...






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec  3 21:02:16 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 21:02:16 -0000
Subject: DD / Thestrals  / Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dmsb6d+kloq@...>
Message-ID: <dmt14o+s4fo@...>

Oops! Reading today's posts and just noticed that, in recapping 
Silmariel's message(3455), I erroneously typed *boggart* (message 3462) 
when I meant to indicate the nature of the snipped conversation--which 
was Silmariel's whole patronus/animagus issue.

The ol'brain was apparently disconnected.

While people have gone on reiterating that snip-summary, they seem to 
know what I meant. ???  

Sorry for any confusion. 

Talisman

P.S. 

Silmariel wrote:
> Of all the things you can call a dragon, Harry, did you have to choose
> coward?... <g>

Talisman: Book 7: Harry Potter and the Black Dragon  ::happyshiver::











From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec  3 22:05:32 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 22:05:32 -0000
Subject: DD / Thestrals  / Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dmt14o+s4fo@...>
Message-ID: <dmt4rc+g0bb@...>

 
> Silmariel wrote:
> > Of all the things you can call a dragon, Harry, did you have to choose
> > coward?... <g>
> 
> Talisman: Book 7: Harry Potter and the Black Dragon  ::happyshiver::
>

Holy cow, you're right.  Voldemort is just a red herring, a plot
device to drive the confrontation and resolution between the real
protagonists (and antagonists -- literally and literarily), Harry and
Snape.  It's brilliant.

Anne
having epiphanies








From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec  3 22:40:05 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 22:40:05 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmq9i0+9d1o@...>
Message-ID: <dmt6s5+btie@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3461 :

<< 15% to pay for the counselling to stressed-out nesting spuggits
bothered by Bill Oddie look-a-likes >>

'spuggit' isn't in One-Look Dictionary.

'Bill Oddie' is (Wikipedia entry) and the info that he is, among other
things, a presenter of TV birdwatching shows suggests that 'spuggits'
are birds, maybe the ones called 'LBJs' in USA (stands for 'Little
Brown Jobs').

<< 20% for wearing a  Fair-Isle sweater >>

I hate to be serious, but what's liberal about wearing a Fair Isle
sweater? Sometimes in USA, you can say 'wearing a sweater' (any kind
of sweater) as an anti-liberal statement, because of Jimmy Carter's
suggestion to save energy (petroleum oil) by turning the thermostat
down, maybe even down low enough that I don't have to fan myself while
wearing nothing but undies (please forgive the terrifying mental
image). But (returning from that digression) I didn't think that
setting the thermostat was a hot political issue in UK.






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec  3 23:05:43 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 23:05:43 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmt6s5+btie@...>
Message-ID: <dmt8c7+f4a5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:
>
> 
> << 20% for wearing a  Fair-Isle sweater >>
> 
> I hate to be serious, but what's liberal about wearing a Fair Isle
> sweater? Sometimes in USA, you can say 'wearing a sweater' (any kind
> of sweater) as an anti-liberal statement, because of Jimmy Carter's
> suggestion to save energy (petroleum oil) by turning the thermostat
> down, maybe even down low enough that I don't have to fan myself while
> wearing nothing but undies (please forgive the terrifying mental
> image). But (returning from that digression) I didn't think that
> setting the thermostat was a hot political issue in UK.
>

Rita
I was going to explain all about Fair Isle sweaters and about how they 
are hand-knit icons worn by those of a woolly Liberal tendency -see:

http://www.shetland-museum.org.uk/collections/textiles/textiles.htm

Well, they are, and turning down said thermostat is just as important 
here as in the US. However, in googling for a suitable link, I also 
found patterns for Elvis wigs:

http://www.theshed.co.uk/elviswig.html

and for bottles of fruit juice:

http://acechick.typepad.com/knit/

and as a consequence, feel in need of a lie down in a darkened room.

Carolyn
Previously unaware that 'stitch and bitch' groups existed..









From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec  4 16:10:31 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 17:10:31 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dmt4rc+g0bb@...>
References: <dmt4rc+g0bb@...>
Message-ID: <200512041710.31893.silmariel@...>

> Talisman: Book 7: Harry Potter and the Black Dragon  ::happyshiver::

Anne: having epiphanies
>Holy cow, you're right.  Voldemort is just a red herring, a plot
>device to drive the confrontation and resolution between the real
>protagonists (and antagonists -- literally and literarily), Harry and
>Snape.  It's brilliant.

Oooh. Holy cow, indeed.

Seems we still could be greatly pleasured to have book 7 in hands, after all.

Because, Volvemort is horrible and all the blabla, but, does he interest 
readers as the Harry/Snape dynamic does? No. The hunt for horcruxes + Snape's 
aid at last moment + let's defeat Voldemort, strikes as a bit mechanic and 
boring. We need some bangs.

Pippin:
>Oooh! Good catch. If Snape is a dragon animagus it just might make sense out
>of that out-of-sequence dragon memory in OOP...

Mmm. I think the good catch is yours, with the animagus jump. The fact is it 
wasn't any effort in imagination by my part, only applied experience. I 
explain: I've been "married" to a dragon in a MUD (online text based RPG 
themed game) for more than a year now, so I've had to imagine a dragon in 
very, let's say, atypical, ways, like inside a salon -basically the house is 
the salon- or moving to our garden.

Considering Hebridean Black measures, he perfectly fits in some of Howgards 
chambers, it is quite big without leaving human perspective (some dragons are 
just *too* big and characters get lost at their side). With 9 metres long, I 
doubt is more than 4 m. height.

>"A great black dragon was rearing in front of him....His father and mother 
>were waving at him out of an enchanted mirror....Cedric Diggory was lying on 
>the ground with blank eyes staring at him...."

Ok, this is the last time I don't see anything coming. I'm gonna reread OoP 
and take notes.

Could anyone explain me why dragon liver is 17 sickles an ounce instead of 1 
galleon?

>I've never liked the idea of animagus Snape because an animagus wouldn't
>need to fear a werewolf. But if he's a gigantic dragon, then he wouldn't
>dare transform in a space as cramped as the tunnel. Love it.

I tend to see him very confident -in his ambient- when he is outdoors. Only a 
feeling and probably derived from movie contamination. Not only he wouldn't 
dare transform in the tunnel, it strikes me also as an unnatural choice of 
terrain for him, if an animagus reflects nature, a tiny space is at least 
uncomfortable to be in. Peter would love it.

Talisman:
> Oops! Reading today's posts and just noticed that, in recapping
> Silmariel's message(3455), I erroneously typed *boggart* (message 3462)
> when I meant to indicate the nature of the snipped conversation--which
> was Silmariel's whole patronus/animagus issue.
>
> The ol'brain was apparently disconnected.
>
> While people have gone on reiterating that snip-summary, they seem to
> know what I meant. ???
>

I didn't.

> Sorry for any confusion.
>

Nops, that made me think.

Welcome to the Boggart Love Boat - a short AU section.

Supossing your boggart Pat actually attacks your targets and not yourself.

a) what form would it show to a dementor? something warm and happy? may 
dementors be scared of the patronus itself so we could see the boggart's true 
apearance?

b) could you use it as a portable boggart against wizards?

So, if Dementors were made, the Patronus spell was invented at the same time? 
Makes clear that as a method for comm is new.

Silmariel




From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec  4 20:23:08 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 20:23:08 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <200512041710.31893.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dmvj7c+fn37@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> 
wrote:

> Anne: having epiphanies
>> Holy cow, you're right.  Voldemort is just a red herring, a plot
>> device to drive the confrontation and resolution between the real
>> protagonists (and antagonists -- literally and literarily), Harry 
>> and Snape.  It's brilliant.
> 
> Oooh. Holy cow, indeed.
> 
> Seems we still could be greatly pleasured to have book 7 in hands, 
> after all.
> 
> Because, Volvemort is horrible and all the blabla, but, does he 
> interest readers as the Harry/Snape dynamic does? No. The hunt for 
> horcruxes + Snape's aid at last moment + let's defeat Voldemort, 
> strikes as a bit mechanic and boring. We need some bangs.

On the other hand, since when has JKR really cared about which 
dynamic her general readers found most interesting?  She loves 
Hagrid, who is always at the top of "should die" polls, and wrote in 
Grawp.  And what was the end of HBP if not BANG-y--we spent the 
entire book telling ourselves "nah, Snape isn't evil, he was just 
lying"--and then he goes and commits the murder.

I suspect, although I could be wrong, that the main event on is still 
Harry vs. Voldemort, and that's where the grandeur and emphasis are 
going to lie.  Snape is a character who Rowling continually writes 
with this sharp edge of the pathetic and the ridiculous lurking in 
the background, which frustrates his ability to be all dark and 
Gothic and brooding and reluctantly heroic (at least for me).  In 
some ways he's just too sad a figure to bear the weight of the 
denoument of a heroic quest.  It's continually amusing how he's the 
most romanticized and valorized figure in much of the fandom at large.

-Nora stays inside and out of the snow today






From hg_skmg at hg_skmg.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec  5 03:56:03 2005
From: hg_skmg at hg_skmg.yahoo.invalid (hg_skmg)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 03:56:03 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dmpodk+1lq0@...>
Message-ID: <dn0doj+3ku7@...>

Anne:
I thought Constance Vigilance's "DD Lives" arguments very, very
plausible -- it's like looking at one of those optical illusion
pictures where you can see two completely different images in it
(there's a very well-known one where it sometimes looks like a young
woman at a vanity and sometimes looks like a skull).  

hg:
I dug around the posts from the past few months and turned up CV's 
concise post 2966, but are there more on this I missed?  Just how 
popular (or unpopular) is this topic on TOC?  It's occupied way too 
much of my brainspace since the summer.

Also, Kneasy, you said, "I *really* don't like Sirius. Whinging 
traitorous creep IMO."  I'd love to hear more -- or am I tickling 
another sleeping dragon?  

hg, off to tuck in little Damien and Clarissa...






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec  5 10:19:41 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:19:41 -0000
Subject: Got a question... (now OT)
In-Reply-To: <dmt6s5+btie@...>
Message-ID: <dn147t+541g@...>

Rita asked:

> << 20% for wearing a  Fair-Isle sweater >>
> 
> I hate to be serious, but what's liberal about wearing a Fair Isle
> sweater? Sometimes in USA, you can say 'wearing a sweater' (any kind
> of sweater) as an anti-liberal statement, because of Jimmy Carter's
> suggestion to save energy (petroleum oil) by turning the thermostat
> down, maybe even down low enough that I don't have to fan myself 
while
> wearing nothing but undies (please forgive the terrifying mental
> image). But (returning from that digression) I didn't think that
> setting the thermostat was a hot political issue in UK.

Allow me to explain.

The USA is a rationally-based constitutional state, and naturally the 
electorate there dispassionately makes up its mind on the issues, 
based on the best evidence available.

Sadly, in the UK, this is not always the case, and one sometimes finds 
that people draw political conclusions from quite incidental cultural 
features.  For example, one might look at a person and say "this 
person wears a Fair Isle sweater, and therefore supports entry into 
the Euro" or "this person sports a beard, and therefore sets explosive 
devices near laboratories where animal experiments take place" 
or "this person takes part in discussions of fiction on the internet 
and therefore cannot be trusted to take part in the electoral process."

It's hard to see how we can get away from this backward state of 
affairs.  My own solution is to make handguns available to the 
population on demand, and then these people would soon be put in their 
place.  It does Mr Blair credit that, in his adherence to Mr Bush's 
lead in everything, he shows that he recognises this problem.

David






From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec  5 10:36:42 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:36:42 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dmvj7c+fn37@...>
References: <dmvj7c+fn37@...>
Message-ID: <200512051136.43041.silmariel@...>


nrenka:
> On the other hand, since when has JKR really cared about which
> dynamic her general readers found most interesting?  

Mmm never? Oh, well. Let's say then that her interests and that of her readers 
converge here. She likes writing him, we like/hate reading him, but few 
people has a no-reaction to him. 

> She loves
> Hagrid, who is always at the top of "should die" polls, and wrote in
> Grawp.  

She loves the characters she kills, that's true. About Grawp, well, she did 
write Dobby, she did write Sirius.

>And what was the end of HBP if not BANG-y--we spent the
> entire book telling ourselves "nah, Snape isn't evil, he was just
> lying"--and then he goes and commits the murder.
>

:) We really think very different. I spent the book -after he made the Vow- 
thinking oh he's gonna be bad after all, and smiled when he killed DD because 
that meant he was good. His position now isn't exactly nothing new for a 
supposed-bad, is the standard: everyone chases you and you've got to flee to 
the baddie's side. And the more hated, the better. We already know the arc 
for book 7, HeroQuest. Something else please, as bangy at least as last book.

> I suspect, although I could be wrong, that the main event on is still
> Harry vs. Voldemort, and that's where the grandeur and emphasis are
> going to lie.  

Of course defeating Voldemort is the front end check box of our hero. He's the 
hero, is his work. Girl check, Dark Lord check.
 
Voldemort is too abstract... only The Bad Thing, imo, lacks the force to be a 
real person opponent. Not for Harry, who isn't used to Dark Lords, but at 
least for me he's only one more in a row of created-to-be-dispatched-DLs.  

Maybe because we have been told how he is and he is a pretty flat case of 
early monster, or exposition to Wormtail, or because his followers have a hit 
failure rate as blatant as the Stormtroopers, the MoM fiasco, the fact that 
he sends teenagers do his work, the absurd Cave, etc. He is dangerous? 
Killing people? But of course, he's supossed to be the Dark Lord, he's got to 
fill a minimun. I haven't seen GoF yet but I suposse movie 'enhancing' can 
help the part a lot.

I think the Harry vs Voldemort construction serves to deploy in big scale some 
themes in the series, as bigotry, hard and soft. Slytheryn > Houses > Muggles 
& Other Magical Species that can't quick your wizard's butts. 

It also serves to provide a link to the previous generation so that marauder 
era characters do feel alive in the sense of not be telling old stories, it 
is the same conflict. So when Harry discovers the truth about GH, it can have 
impact.

> Snape is a character who Rowling continually writes
> with this sharp edge of the pathetic and the ridiculous lurking in
> the background, which frustrates his ability to be all dark and
> Gothic and brooding and reluctantly heroic (at least for me).  In
> some ways he's just too sad a figure to bear the weight of the
> denoument of a heroic quest.  

I feel I'm lost here: "this sharp edge of the pathetic and the ridiculous 
lurking in the background" means the ocassions in which he seems human (and 
pathetic, true) instead of a Gary Stu: "his ability to be all dark and Gothic 
and brooding and reluctantly heroic" (I'd be the first asking for his blood 
if he was in supercharacter mode all the time)? 

I don't particularly like the Goth side, I prefer the sarcastic bastard side.

>It's continually amusing how he's the
> most romanticized and valorized figure in much of the fandom at large.
>

He's the Spock type. Don't ask me how it works, but it always works. 

Silmariel



From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec  5 13:55:36 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:55:36 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dn0doj+3ku7@...>
Message-ID: <dn1gso+ek8h@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "hg_skmg" <hg_skmg at y...> wrote:
>
> Anne:
> I thought Constance Vigilance's "DD Lives" arguments very, very
> plausible -- it's like looking at one of those optical illusion
> pictures where you can see two completely different images in it
> (there's a very well-known one where it sometimes looks like a young
> woman at a vanity and sometimes looks like a skull).  
> 
> hg:
> I dug around the posts from the past few months and turned up CV's 
> concise post 2966, but are there more on this I missed?  Just how 
> popular (or unpopular) is this topic on TOC?  It's occupied way too 
> much of my brainspace since the summer.

Anne:
Oh, sorry - wrong group.  There's more to be found at the Hogs_Head,
especially beginning here (public archives, so anyone can read):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/message/4717

And a more compact version, that CV gave at Salem during the Leaky
Cauldron's Pottercast. This is a section of the transcript; just
scroll down about 1/3 of the way until Constance makes her appearance:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/pottercast/index.php?mode=transcripts&id=show8_3

http://tinyurl.com/9888k

~Annemehr
hoping CV doesn't mind if I toot her horn for her a little bit...

(by the way, if you read the rest of the Pottercast transcript, I am
FlyOnTheWall and also the "audience member" who discusses with Chris
Rankin about sympathising with Percy's character)









From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec  5 14:03:35 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:03:35 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <200512051136.43041.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dn1hbn+9jp3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> 
wrote:

> Mmm never? Oh, well. Let's say then that her interests and that of 
> her readers converge here. She likes writing him, we like/hate 
> reading him, but few people has a no-reaction to him. 

He does get a disproportionate reaction in terms of his page time.  I 
wonder if we aren't pinning too much weight and importance on him, 
though.

> She loves the characters she kills, that's true. About Grawp, well, 
> she did write Dobby, she did write Sirius.

And she has genuine affection for the latter (per interview), which 
seems to grate upon some to no end.  You can't predict everything 
based on who the author likes or not, but it's not a bad heuristic 
for the tone of their ultimate treatment.

> :) We really think very different. I spent the book -after he made 
> the Vow-thinking oh he's gonna be bad after all, and smiled when he 
> killed DD because that meant he was good. His position now isn't 
> exactly nothing new for a supposed-bad, is the standard: everyone 
> chases you and you've got to flee to the baddie's side. And the 
> more hated, the better. We already know the arc for book 7, 
> HeroQuest. Something else please, as bangy at least as last book.

I suspect that's a rather rarified way of reading the events which 
have taken place, although it's surely one that she's thought of.  I 
have no faith in any of my predictions, but 'hiding in plain sight' 
may well be the strategy.  I can think of all the supposed 
discrepancies and little clues in past books which haven't proven out 
yet.  Given that, it wouldn't shock me that she put a BANG at the end 
of book 6 to work through its side-effects (and not reverse it) in 
book 7.  YMMV.

> Voldemort is too abstract... only The Bad Thing, imo, lacks the 
> force to be a real person opponent. Not for Harry, who isn't used 
> to Dark Lords, but at least for me he's only one more in a row of 
> created-to-be-dispatched-DLs.  

Maybe so, but does he have the scale and the ferocity.  I don't know 
how Rowling is going to pull off her denoument, whether it's going to 
be death or some other mechanism.

> I think the Harry vs Voldemort construction serves to deploy in big 
> scale some themes in the series, as bigotry, hard and soft. 
> Slytheryn > Houses > Muggles & Other Magical Species that can't 
> quick your wizard's butts. 

The blood ideology seems to be the dominant form of bigotry in the 
series.  It's the one given a giant past from founding on, and has 
been shown in the actions of any number of characters (Voldie, Lucius 
Malfoy, Sluggy, Fudge, the whole Ministry) to be the primary cancer 
of wizarding society.

> I feel I'm lost here: "this sharp edge of the pathetic and the 
> ridiculous lurking in the background" means the ocassions in which 
> he seems human (and pathetic, true) instead of a Gary Stu: "his 
> ability to be all dark and Gothic and brooding and reluctantly 
> heroic" (I'd be the first asking for his blood if he was in 
> supercharacter mode all the time)? 

It means that she makes him (IMO) even more bathetic than genuinely 
pathetic.  (Pathetic is a hard word to use in this case because it 
makes me think of both older and newer connotations of the word).  I 
must be one of the only readers who actually found Snape *less* 
sympathetic after OotP: it was a case of "You've been sulking and 
sitting on all of *that* for so many years?"  I guess that he would 
like to present himself as justified and the wronged party, but his 
version of "me me me" is used by Rowling to make him ridiculous, too.

> I don't particularly like the Goth side, I prefer the sarcastic 
> bastard side.

About half the time the humor is sharp and cutting, the other half 
it's fifth-grader caliber.  The latter is supremely embarrassing when 
being used by a grown man upon his student charges.  Again, YMMV.

> He's the Spock type. Don't ask me how it works, but it always 
> works. 

One wonders what the fandom fallout will be if Rowling decides to 
puncture that possibility...

-Nora keeps her options open, but notes that there are a lot of fans 
on both sides of issues who would be devastated to be wrong







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec  5 22:10:58 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 22:10:58 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dn0doj+3ku7@...>
Message-ID: <dn2dti+tcmc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "hg_skmg" <hg_skmg at y...> wrote:
> snip>
> 
> Also, Kneasy, you said, "I *really* don't like Sirius. Whinging 
> traitorous creep IMO."  I'd love to hear more -- or am I tickling 
> another sleeping dragon?  
> 
> hg, off to tuck in little Damien and Clarissa...

Oh, yes. I  had great fun and games on TOL, putting the boot into Sirius.
Splendid fun. The Heathcliff of the WW -  if not something worse.

Not sure the members here want to hear the arguments again so it's
probably better if you lock the door and sneak off to HPfGU.
Two major posts from yrs truly (among many minor ones) - the first a 
detailed consideration of his 'escape' from Azkaban (I think Fudge let
him out for nefarious reasons):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79808

and a more general bashing in:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103685
 
ah, the quondam days of my youth; it brings it all back.


> David:  
> Sadly, in the UK, this is not always the case, and one sometimes finds 
> that people draw political conclusions from quite incidental cultural 
> features.  For example, one might look at a person and say "this 
> person wears a Fair Isle sweater, and therefore supports entry into 
> the Euro" or "this person sports a beard, and therefore sets explosive 
> devices near laboratories where animal experiments take place" 
> or "this person takes part in discussions of fiction on the internet 
> and therefore cannot be trusted to take part in the electoral process."
> 

Stereotypes, true. And obviously there are exceptions (odd that I've
proudly sported a beard for 30+years - and I hang around labs), but the
worrying thing about stereotypes is that to be stereotypes they have to 
have some basis in fact. For example, if I said to you - "tie-dyed dress, 
hairy legs, sandals," which part of the political spectrum would you 
connect the description with? Be honest.
 
> It's hard to see how we can get away from this backward state of 
> affairs.  My own solution is to make handguns available to the 
> population on demand, and then these people would soon be put in their 
> place.  It does Mr Blair credit that, in his adherence to Mr Bush's 
> lead in everything, he shows that he recognises this problem.
> 

Guns? For blowing away Fair-Isle sweater wearers? Seems a bit extreme,
even to me. Education and aversion therapy would be adequate IMO.
Mind you, guns would be very useful in discouraging the police from 
shooting innocent (and invariably unarmed) members of the public. 
Happened too often for comfort over the past few years. Maybe the 
prospect of getting ventilated themselves might curb their enthusiasm.

Kneasy 









From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec  5 23:03:18 2005
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:03:18 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Got a question... (now OT)
In-Reply-To: <dn147t+541g@...>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F16E3F26716E21DC9760D0CD0410@...>

David wrote:


>Allow me to explain.
>
>The USA is a rationally-based constitutional state, and naturally the
>electorate there dispassionately makes up its mind on the issues,
>based on the best evidence available.

Rational?  Dispassionate?  Um, don't think so.
>
>Sadly, in the UK, this is not always the case, and one sometimes finds
>that people draw political conclusions from quite incidental cultural
>features.  For example, one might look at a person and say "this
>person wears a Fair Isle sweater, and therefore supports entry into
>the Euro" or "this person sports a beard, and therefore sets explosive
>devices near laboratories where animal experiments take place"
>or "this person takes part in discussions of fiction on the internet
>and therefore cannot be trusted to take part in the electoral process."

We do that here too.  I can't count the number of times someone's looked at 
either me or my husband & jumped to conclusions about us based on our looks 
(just because he has a ponytail & I have a tendency to wear either historic 
shirts with jeans or t-shirts with 'liberal' statements (my current 
favourite reads 'Born Again Pagan').

Folks here often have a tendency to look at an African-American who has 
'made it' and think 'he's a drug dealer' when in fact, he may be a doctor.  
And recently Muslims have been singled out simply because of their religion.
>
>It's hard to see how we can get away from this backward state of
>affairs.  My own solution is to make handguns available to the
>population on demand, and then these people would soon be put in their
>place.  It does Mr Blair credit that, in his adherence to Mr Bush's
>lead in everything, he shows that he recognises this problem.

Handguns are available to the general public here--after one passes a 
background check (and I wonder just how thorough it is) and takes a course 
on handgun safety.  Our local library has a sign on its door that states 'No 
concealable weapons allowed'.  I must admit that it scares me that anyone I 
meet walking down the street might have a handgun.
>
>David

Parker





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec  6 01:10:10 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 01:10:10 -0000
Subject: Got a question...
In-Reply-To: <dn2dti+tcmc@...>
Message-ID: <dn2odi+c4ds@...>

> 
> > David:  
> > Sadly, in the UK, this is not always the case, and one sometimes 
finds 
> > that people draw political conclusions from quite incidental 
cultural 
> > features.  For example, one might look at a person and say "this 
> > person wears a Fair Isle sweater, and therefore supports entry 
into 
> > the Euro" or "this person sports a beard, and therefore sets 
explosive 
> > devices near laboratories where animal experiments take place" 
> > or "this person takes part in discussions of fiction on the 
internet 
> > and therefore cannot be trusted to take part in the electoral 
process."
> > 
> 
> Stereotypes, true. And obviously there are exceptions (odd that I've
> proudly sported a beard for 30+years - and I hang around labs), but 
the
> worrying thing about stereotypes is that to be stereotypes they 
have to 
> have some basis in fact. For example, if I said to you - "tie-dyed 
dress, 
> hairy legs, sandals," which part of the political spectrum would 
you 
> connect the description with? Be honest.
>  
> > It's hard to see how we can get away from this backward state of 
> > affairs.  My own solution is to make handguns available to the 
> > population on demand, and then these people would soon be put in 
their 
> > place.  It does Mr Blair credit that, in his adherence to Mr 
Bush's 
> > lead in everything, he shows that he recognises this problem.
> > 
> 
> Guns? For blowing away Fair-Isle sweater wearers? Seems a bit 
extreme,
> even to me. Education and aversion therapy would be adequate IMO.
> Mind you, guns would be very useful in discouraging the police from 
> shooting innocent (and invariably unarmed) members of the public. 
> Happened too often for comfort over the past few years. Maybe the 
> prospect of getting ventilated themselves might curb their 
enthusiasm.
> 
> Kneasy
>
In the states we have the right to bear arms. Unfortunately, they are 
used to settle petty arguments, in stead of talking about one's 
differing opinions. I wonder whatever happened to a good ole fist 
fight?. My favorite here of course is if you look at someone wrong in 
traffic or accidently cut a person off, they may come after you with 
a gun. Be careful who you flip off! Anyway, the biggest problem with 
guns is that innocent people, especially children get injured or 
killed. If idiots want to get involved in the gangland shootouts, 
thats fine with me, just don't harm the innocent bystanders. This 
just cleans up the nations DNA and gene pool.

Kneasy you are wrong about gun ownership discouraging police 
shootings people. I think this actually increases, esp since you have 
those nice cop killer bullets which penetrate any type of flak vest. 
It tends to make them a bit more on edge and trigger happy. 

After this serious stuff, I will end with a silly joke.  What goes 
clip-clop, clip-clop, BANG clip-clop clip-clop clip-clop?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
A drive by shooting in Amish country....<grin> corny I know

Fran








From hg_skmg at hg_skmg.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec  6 03:04:49 2005
From: hg_skmg at hg_skmg.yahoo.invalid (hg_skmg)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:04:49 -0000
Subject: Muggle Magic (was Re: Got a question...)
In-Reply-To: <dn1gso+ek8h@...>
Message-ID: <dn2v4h+lc4t@...>

> > hg:
> > I dug around the posts from the past few months and turned up 
CV's concise post 2966, but are there more on this I missed?  Just 
how popular (or unpopular) is this topic on TOC?  It's occupied way 
too much of my brainspace since the summer.
> 
> Anne:
> Oh, sorry - wrong group.  There's more to be found at the Hogs_Head,
> especially beginning here (public archives, so anyone can read):
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/message/4717
> 
> And a more compact version, that CV gave at Salem during the Leaky
> Cauldron's Pottercast. This is a section of the transcript; just
> scroll down about 1/3 of the way until Constance makes her 
appearance:
> 
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/pottercast/index.php?
mode=transcripts&id=show8_3
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/9888k
> 
> ~Annemehr
> hoping CV doesn't mind if I toot her horn for her a little bit...
> 
> (by the way, if you read the rest of the Pottercast transcript, I am
> FlyOnTheWall and also the "audience member" who discusses with Chris
> Rankin about sympathising with Percy's character)

hg:
Right on -- you guys are celebrities!  How cool.  
I couldn't find "FlyOnTheWall," but "Audience Member" really held her 
own.  (I'm a Percy-sympathizer myself.)

And about CV, I'll just have to toot along with you, because I think 
she's right -- she said the same thing as in her post (thanks for 
directing me to it) -- here's a snip:

(CV, Hog's Head, 9/23/05):
"As a student of muggle magic (illusionism), when something is done 
out of sight or behind a curtain, it's always because there is some 
trickery involved. That was my first thought when I read the chapter: 
the AK hit DD and he went over the side to die where we can't see 
him. This is complete David Copperfield stuff...Then I wondered about 
the slight smile and bit of blood dripping from DD's mouth. Smiling? 
While you are being AK'd or falling to your death? Neither one of 
those seemed to be something that would result in a smile. And the 
blood - it was ringing a bell. Blood. Blood. Where had we seen blood 
in this book before? Oh, yes! Slughorn used dragon's blood in part of 
his fake death scene." 

I've been discussing Muggle magic on another forum, because I think 
for sure we were treated to some misdirection and gimmick here in the 
tower scene and funeral, perhaps even in the cave.  (I've proposed 
the possibility of a switch with Slughorn that perhaps is divergent 
from CV's take on the matter, but I think Muggle magic is at work 
here, with real magic of course, and with or without a switch.)

But Muggle magic makes a pointed appearance in this book, first with 
Slughorn's fake crime scene, then through the twins and their shop.  
It stands to reason that's to lay the groundwork for more.

A biggie for me is the connection of Slughorn to "Muggle magic," both 
in his actions in Budleigh Babberton and an interesting (possible) 
historical basis for his character, a magician from the Golden Age of 
Magic by the name of Horace Goldin.  Aside from the first name, and 
maybe the 'wink' with Slughorn's golden buttons, Goldin also 
resembled Slughorn physically, and specialized in a fast, patterless 
act (I'm reminded of the two-minutes preparation at the Muggle 
cottage).  Goldin in his early years idolized a magician named Albini 
and had a pet tiger named Lily.  And JK shows us Slughorn's hands 
repeatedly.  The connection with Slughorn and misdirection seems 
especially pointed when Harry knows what he's up to, taking the venom 
from Aragog; the only thing he's able to notice, despite watching 
Slughorn carefully, is the faint clinking of the vials in his pocket.

I definitely think that blood on the body (body?) was little more 
than set-dressing; moreover, I think it was from the vial of dusty 
dragon's blood Slughorn rebottled in chapter 4.

hg.






From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec  7 19:03:19 2005
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:03:19 -0000
Subject: Muggle Magic (was Re: Got a question...)
In-Reply-To: <dn2v4h+lc4t@...>
Message-ID: <dn7bln+cub4@...>

Oh, wow! I nod off for a bit and people start talking about me! In a 
nice way, though. I'm thrilled.

> > And a more compact version, that CV gave at Salem during the 
Leaky
> > Cauldron's Pottercast. This is a section of the transcript; just
> > scroll down about 1/3 of the way until Constance makes her 
> appearance:
> > 

Heehee, somebody noticed. I thought I was most famous for sitting on 
the mic.

Back to Muggle magic.

> (CV, Hog's Head, 9/23/05):
> "As a student of muggle magic (illusionism), when something is 
done 
> out of sight or behind a curtain, it's always because there is 
some 
> trickery involved. 

I still stand by this. It was all a trick.

<snip>

>Then I wondered about 
> the slight smile and bit of blood dripping from DD's mouth.

Actually, this has sort of been debunked. He wasn't actually 
smiling, as it turns out. Just eyes closed with a peaceful look. I 
still say, nobody falls from a tower with a peaceful look.

> And the 
> blood - it was ringing a bell. Blood. Blood. Where had we seen 
blood 
> in this book before? Oh, yes! Slughorn used dragon's blood in part 
of 
> his fake death scene." 

I think this is the kicker. We already have an example of blood 
being used in a fake death scene.

But this morning, I had another epiphany.

We also have an example of someone who survived an AK. Dumbledore 
knows how to survive an AK - use some sort of ancient magic. 
Mother's love? Who knows. If anyone could figure out how to thwart 
an AK, Dumbledore would. Maybe he has been practicing? He already 
has a scar. <snert> In any case, I'm of the opinion that Dumbledore 
would have been aware of the dangerous times and would have prepared 
himself for just such an eventuality.

This could also explain the look of hatred in Snape's face. We know 
that Unforgiveables have to be meant. Perhaps Snape's expression is 
his digging up some sincerity so that his AK will behave exactly as 
an AK should so Dumbledore's defenses will work? Or maybe it's 
because the whole point of the exercise was to convince Harry that 
Dumbledore was indeed dead, and an insincere AK doesn't look 
convincing?

Who knows. But I'm quite certain that Snape is a Good Guy and that 
Dumbledore is alive and well.

And quite possibly sipping tea with Quirrell at a dragon farm near 
Durmstrang at this very moment. (See my published works)

CV






From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  9 02:02:17 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:02:17 -0000
Subject: filk: Our House Elves Drink Sherry During Christmas
Message-ID: <dnaoj9+t79h@...>

To help lighten up the discussion, Red Eye Randy takes the Christmas 
Filk song challenge.....


Our House Elves Drink Sherry During Christmas

(Sung to the tune of " Have Yourself a Merry Little
Christmas")

Our house elves drink sherry during Christmas
And they all get tight!
Some plow on
Keep drinking and stay out all night!

Our House elves drink sherry every Christmas
Made the Boone's Farm way,
One season
Our whole crew was found miles away!

There they were in a purple haze
Had not slept for days, outdoors
Found by friends who lived near to us
Helped them catch a bus down shore

Through the years
They all will be together
If the matron allows
Says she'll trade them all for just one Guernsey Cow
But our house elves drink sherry during Christmas now.


Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes ;0) All magical and
muggle rights reserved.  









From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  9 02:10:33 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:10:33 -0000
Subject: Filk: Run Off With Severus Snape, Dear
Message-ID: <dnap2p+umk7@...>

Red Eye Randy is on another roll, so here is yet
another Christmas Filk Song.....

The Scene:

Bellatrix feels the holiday spirit and sings this song
to young Draco one night during his Occlumency
lessons.....



Run Off With Severus Snape, Dear

(sung to the tune of "Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer"

Run off with Severus Snape, Dear
He's the one Narcissa chose
And if you fail the Dark Lord
He's the one whose life gets hosed

He'll help your mother's pain, dear
Cissy never called him names
She felt he'd help get you off
Death from He Who'll Not Be Named

Cause one night at Spinner's End
Severus made a vow
If Draco should lose his fight
Snape steps in to end his plight

Then Bellatrix can trust him
Once he does the dirty deed
Run off with Severus Snape, dear
He'll fulfill the Dark Lord's need!

Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes ;0) All magical and
muggle rights reserved.







From drednort at drednort.geo.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  9 13:06:55 2005
From: drednort at drednort.geo.yahoo.invalid (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:06:55 +1100
Subject: OT: 15 years ago today...
In-Reply-To: <dm4mml+if49@...>
References: <01f001c5eebf$4ff13820$6701a8c0@...>
Message-ID: <439A1C1F.29612.2B7749F@localhost>

Fifteen years ago today, my father died. I was fifteen years old at 
the time so as I write this, I have been without his physical 
presence for roughly half my own life. It seems to me appropriate 
somehow to put a few things down on paper. When I decided to do this, 
earlier today all sorts of eloquent phrases came to mind, but as I 
come to write this, I am finding it incredibly difficult to find the 
words to say what I wish to day. But I shall do my best.

My father was born into a country which didn't acknowledge him as 
fully human. You see, his mother, my Nanna, was Koorie - Australian 
Aboriginal - and, back then, Australia's constitution specifically 
excluded the Koorie from the ranks of human beings. My grandmother 
had been separated from her family at a very young age, taken away to 
be educated as promising young blacks and half castes were. The 
Australian genocide was intended to be a gentle and a merciful one. 
The abos were to be allowed to die out in their own time, with the 
few who persisted assimilated into white society through education in 
the ways of civilization. My Nanna was one of the lucky chosen ones - 
she got an education that allowed her to pretend to be white. She 
married a white man and that completed the illusion. But the illusion 
had to be complete - and so Nanna didn't tell her children of their 
heritage.

It's hard to find out things about my father growing up. He told me a 
little, but what he told me was rather heavily edited. From what I 
have been able to work out though, he didn't have an easy childhood. 
He was born into relative poverty during the Second World War and 
while he wasn't quite malnourished, he wasn't that far from it. His 
mother was a nurse, who had to take what jobs she could where people 
wouldn't ask about the colour of her skin. And his father was a petty 
criminal. Dad was the oldest of four children - two younger brothers 
and a younger sister - and it seems that he took on, over time, more 
and more of the paternal role to his two youngest siblings. He got a 
basic education - a perfectly adequate one by working class standards 
of the time but he knew he'd never get more than that from a very 
early age. He valued the education he could get. But knew that he 
would never receive a full formal education. And he accepted that.

He didn't have an easy time growing up. That's all I'm saying. And 
his fathers health was poor, so he had to take on more and more 
responsibility for the family. And then when his father died when he 
was seventeen, he became the breadwinner. Highly intelligent, semi-
educated - he took what jobs he could find. Labouring. Apprentice to 
a butcher. Not bad jobs really - but nothing like what he could have 
done if he'd had better opportunities. Opportunities he made sure his 
younger siblings had. He sought to educate himself from books 
borrowed from libraries, and decided he wanted more out of life. He 
wanted a real career.

So, finally he decided to join the Navy. Now, this was at a time when 
Australia was involved in two separate wars - the Confrontation in 
Borneo, and the war in Vietnam. So joining the military was quite a 
decision to make (and, ultimately, Dad did serve in both these wars). 
But the Navy was his one chance as a career - and it had the added 
bonus that though Aborigines weren't legally supposed to serve in the 
military (not being citizens) those who managed it never had to worry 
about their citizenship again. This was a path to unchallenged 
citizenship. And so he joined the Navy.

He served for twenty years with distinction and honour. His lack of 
formal education didn't matter that much in the Navy - he served in a 
wide variety of roles, both in peace and in war, and he rose through 
the ranks to finish his career as one of the Royal Australian Navy's 
most senior instructors. He also met my mother in the Navy - which is 
rather a lucky thing for me, personally, and I think was very lucky 
for both of them as well. He fathered me and my younger brother - and 
from the moment we were born he began saving money for our education -
 because he intended to make sure that whatever education we needed 
would be possible. The nation had changed a lot in the decade before 
I was born, his first decade in the Navy. An Australian government 
had finally put the issue of Aboriginal citizenship to the people and 
the people had overwhelmingly voted in favour of it. I'm the oldest 
of all my cousins - and I was the first child born into my family 
with full human rights. And it's really hard for me to understand 
what that means because it's always been that way for me - but my 
father understood it. And he was going to make sure that nothing in 
his power to change would ever hold me back. Education had changed as 
well - schools had improved and it was now normal and economically 
possible for working class kids to go to university if they wanted 
it. There really wasn't an obvious need to be saving for an 
education. But Dad did it anyway.

I say Dad did it - because this is being written in tribute to him - 
but make no mistake, my mother was at least equally responsible. I 
would never ignore what she has done for me as well, but, Thank God, 
I don't have a need to write any type of memorial to her.

I was born half way through my Dad's military service - at a time 
when he was already a Senior Sailor. So while I saw him working hard, 
I never really saw him working hard to become successful. I saw him 
working hard at a time where he had already achieved success.

And, when there were problems - like the time when he was swept up in 
the Cairns' police "nigger patrol" one evening - when they went 
through the town and arrested blacks to lock them up for the night - 
well, he never told me about those things.

I just saw a man who worked hard, and who was respected by all of 
those around him. A man who was called 'Chief' by all those he worked 
with, except for his closest friends - who called him 'Pop'. He was 
my father and I worshipped him. And I never saw him show any sign of 
fear or hatred, nor any sign that there was a reason that he might 
have either of those feelings.

Actually I did see fear once. We were at the beach, and I was three 
years old, or thereabouts. He was standing on the beach talking to 
someone and I wandered off into the water. I liked the beach. We used 
to spend a lot of time there - and I was walking out into the water, 
letting it get deeper and deeper - and then I stepped off a ledge 
into water too deep for me. Over my head.

And I sank - and I hit the bottom - and I pushed myself back up. Then 
I sank again - and I hit the bottom - and I pushed myself back up.

I tried to call for help - but everytime I opened my mouth I sank and 
swallowed water. I managed to turn myself - I must have - because I 
could see my Dad on the beach, looking away from me and talking. And 
I tried to call for help - and I just swallowed water again.

Then I saw the man he was talking to point and Dad's head snap 
around. And he began to run.

And I swear, I am not sure he ran through that water - it seemed to 
me like he ran across the top of it. And the look on his face 
terrified me. I was a bright kid. I knew I was in danger - and the 
look on his face terrified me, because the only reason I could 
imagine fear like that on my fathers face was if I was certain to 
die. But he reached me, and he grabbed me, and he took me ashore. And 
made sure I hadn't swallowed too much water. And when I'd established 
I was all right, he smacked my bottom because I was supposed to stay 
out of the water. But - well, the look I'd seen on his face had 
taught me that lesson already.

When I was old enough, I started school, of course - and went to four 
schools in my first three years of schooling. Dad was Navy, and we 
moved where he was posted. Dad had faith in education - he assumed 
that just about any school would provide the basic education I (and 
later my brother) needed. He chose Catholic schools - because we were 
Catholic and he also felt the discipline was a bit better in Catholic 
schools - but basically we went to the nearest Catholic school to 
where we were living, when he was posted. And to begin with, this 
worked quite well. At least it did as far as he or my mother knew. Or 
I knew for that matter.

Dad assumed that he was average. Mum assumed that she was average. 
And they assumed that my brother and I were average as well. We were 
an average working class family, and so they chose the normal primary 
schools in our area secure in the knowledge that these schools seemed 
to do a decent job.

And, in all honesty, they did in many ways. Looking back on things I 
can see the problems. I started primary school already able to do 
everything they planned to teach me over the next seven years, and 
consequently I spent a lot of my time at school being very bored and 
I certainly didn't learn anything - but I had good and kind and 
caring teachers, and while I was bullied a bit because I was 
different and that hurt, it wasn't anything incredibly bad.

But what I didn't know, or understand, was what was going on in my 
father's life.

Dad's health had never been very good. Problems didn't become 
apparent until he was older, but by the time he was in his late 
thirties, they started to emerge. It was partly related to his war 
service - he had served on a ship called HMAS Duchess during the 
Confrontation and the Duchess had been loaned to the Royal Australian 
Navy by the Royal Navy to replace an Australian destroyer sunk in an 
accident. It was a rush job and an imperfectly cleaned fuel tank was 
used to store drinking water on Duchess - and quite a lot of the 
sailors who served on her later developed health problems, that they 
believed were linked to that. He'd also become a heavy smoker during 
the Vietnam War, and together he started to have various circulatory 
problems. They weren't exceptionally serious - he had to have a 
vascular bypass, and give up smoking, but with care he could expect 
to live a fairly normal life.

He finished out his twenty years service - and then the plan was to 
settle down and take things reasonably easy until he was old enough 
to retire - basically fifteen years - his war service meant he could 
retire at 60 onto his full pension.

While he had a great deal of experience in the Navy, back then this 
didn't transfer well to civilian life in Australia. Today, someone 
discharging with my fathers experience and training would have 
civilian qualifications - probably a Masters degree or two Bachelors 
degrees. But this predated that - and so Dad found himself without 
any greater education than he'd had when he joined the Navy as far as 
the outside world was concerned. He found a job - a decent, fairly 
well paid job with good benefits and good job security - working as a 
Security Guard for a state utility.

I think he was fairly happy with this. It was a responsible job but 
one without major stress which he was supposed to avoid. It paid 
enough money that his family had all that it needed - especially 
coupled with the cheap home loan that his military service entitled 
him to. I suspect that he was annoyed that his education acquired in 
the military counted for so little in civilian life, because as I 
say, he valued education. But we had what we needed.

And then, two years after he left the Navy - well, that is when my 
problems started.

As I mentioned before my primary schooling seemed all right at the 
time, its deficits only become clearly apparent in hindsight. And if 
my secondary schooling had been the same, things might have been the 
same there. At age 12, I passed on from my primary school to the 
local Catholic secondary school. I'd been at this primary school for 
nearly five years (from the middle of Grade Two to the end of Grade 
Six) and I was fairly happy there. Bored. Never learned anything. But 
I liked my teachers, and while I was teased a lot to begin with, over 
time that had pretty much gone away. In my final year, I was one of 
the leaders of the school, in fact, I was relatively popular. Life 
was pretty good, really.

But this secondary school was another matter entirely. This school 
was a horrible place for me - hell on earth, in fact. The school was 
a very modern, very permissive education environment - it prided 
itself on being so. It embraced with a passion all of the state 
governments' new educational ideology which was quite radical in many 
ways, but it also had its own ideas.

In practice - at this school - students were not allowed to be 
anything but equal. It was not acceptable for some students to be 
smarter than others. If a student was doing better than their 
classmates, they had to be pulled back into line. My main teacher - 
my homeroom teacher, the teacher supposedly most responsible for my 
welfare - was a disaster as far as I was concerned. I'd come to 
secondary school craving educational stimulation which I'd been 
denied for at least four and a half years. I somehow though that at 
secondary school I might actually learn something. Well, this woman 
taught me more subjects than any other - and she didn't like me. I 
honestly think she saw me as a threat. I knew her subjects better 
than she did, and I didn't fit her image of what a student should be. 
She used to penalise me in her classes because I didn't like 
colouring in pictures. I was twelve years old and I felt I was beyond 
having to colour all the time. I hadn't much liked it when I was six -
 but it seemed ridiculous at age 12 to be losing marks on history 
homework because I hadn't coloured in a picture of a pyramid. I 
wouldn't have minded as much if we'd actually learned anything - I 
would have paid the price of colouring things in, if she'd actually 
taught me anything I didn't know. But she didn't. And when I tried to 
learn for myself, she penalised and punished me for getting ahead of 
the other children.

And another feature of this school was that it didn't believe in 
punishment, or in restricting students behaviour in any significant 
way. Children should be allowed to do what they like and teachers 
should not interfere.

Unfortunately what some children liked doing was bullying others. And 
people from my old school let other people know that I was a perfect 
target. And so the bullying began. Often in clear view of teachers. 
It was verbal, emotional, and physical. Eventually I was being bashed 
by groups of a dozen boys every day. And on wet days when we were 
confined to a covered area of the playground where it was virtually 
standing room only, I was sometimes attacked by groups of over 100. 
Maybe 200.

The teachers saw it, and did nothing. The teacher who was supposed to 
be looking out for me was the worst of all. I assumed that I must be 
the problem - because surely people would have helped me if I wasn't 
doing something wrong - I was being punished for working too hard. 
Obviously I was the problem. And so I didn't tell my parents what was 
going on.

Eventually they found out, thank God. And Dad spoke to the school and 
was told I was retarded - this school couldn't comprehend that its 
methods and ideas might be faulty. It had to me who had the problems.

My parents took me to be tested by the state's top educational 
psychologist - like I say, my parents valued education and they 
wanted to know what they were dealing with. He told them that I 
wasn't retarded. And he told them that given our states educational 
climate, the only real option for me were certain extremely expensive 
elite private schools.

We had enough money coming in from Dad's job that we wanted for 
nothing - but we certainly didn't have money for luxuries.

And, though, he never talked about it - I suspect my father could 
remember his own childhood where the only kids who got decent 
education were those whose parents could afford to send them to 
expensive schools - and I suspect he didn't much care for the idea of 
his own son going to such a school.

But it was necessary. The experts told him it was necessary. And so 
they did it. My parents knocked on doors and made phonecalls and did 
whatever it took to get me into such a school. These schools have 
waiting lists years long in many cases. And my parents had about 
three months to make it happen - to get me into such a school at a 
year level where such schools didn't normally take students.

They managed it. But it must have been stressful. And Dad was 
supposed to avoid stress.

Financially - it was just barely possible. With the money they'd been 
saving for university education which they were able to pull out of 
the fund it was in (although it was being pulled out five years 
before maturity, they lost a lot of what it should have been), it was 
possible. But only barely. My parents went from financial security to 
financial stress.

And it wasn't just financial stress. After my year of hell, I was 
emotionally damaged. I was suicidal, and deeply clinically depressed. 
I'd also lost all interest in learning, and I'd never really had a 
chance to develop study skills because I'd never had to study. Now I 
found myself in an exclusive, highly academic school - and I wasn't 
willing to work. My self discipline about study was non existent.

I'll be blunt. My parents were making immense sacrifices for me - and 
I wasn't taking advantage of them. I know there were reasons - and my 
parents did too, and they did their best not to push me too hard. But 
to start with, I was working so poorly that there was a good chance 
that this school they'd had to work so hard to get me into wasn't all 
that likely to keep me - the school was willing to make some 
allowances for me as well, and to give me time to adapt. But I sorely 
tried their patience and probably took things right to the limit 
before I finally toed the line. Really, it was probably six months 
before I was doing even the basics expected of me - and two and a 
half years before I was really out of the woods. And that whole time 
my father was exposed to the stress he was supposed to avoid. And his 
health started to suffer.

And he concealed that from us.

It wasn't just my schooling. I needed weekly psychological counseling 
for quite a while and he made sure I got that. And he also got 
involved with advocacy for gifted children - because he could see 
that this issue was far wider than just us.

He should have quit his job. That's what the doctors told him to do. 
His health had deteriorated to the extent that he could have got his 
pension. But there was no way my school fees could be paid on that 
pension - and though I am fairly sure the school would have allowed 
me to stay for nothing in such a situation (a war veteran succumbing 
to illness from war service) my father wasn't the type to even ask 
for that.

And where he worked - well, one of the senior management there was an 
ex-military officer and he met Dad and realised the type of 
experience Dad had - this man understood the education my father had 
and the jobs he'd had and what they meant and this man moved Dad into 
a management position. Higher pay. Higher stress. Dad might have 
taken it anyway - maybe - but I really do think that a large part of 
the reason he took it was to try and get back some financial 
security.

His health went downhill quite rapidly. He saw Doctors and they told 
him to quit. Instead, he quietly made arrangements to ensure we would 
all be looked after if something happened to him. He spoke to my 
school to check my progress (and, I am so glad that this happened 
just after I had really got myself under control, so for the first 
time he was actually able to be given a generally good report about 
me and know that I was all right.)

Then, a week after I finished Year Ten, on the 7th December 1990 as 
he disembarked from a train for work, my father suffered a massive 
stroke.

He died early on the morning of 10th December 1990 at the age of 47 
years.

My father gave his life for me and for my education.

That's a solid thing to know.

He knew the state of his health. He knew the risks he was running 
with it.

And he made a judgement that those risks were worthwhile.

He'd left me a legacy as well - something he told me in that last 
year, which I didn't understand the significance of at the time. He 
had lost his father at seventeen - a little older than me, but not 
all that much - and had had to change his plans for his entire life. 
He made it clear to me that if anything ever happened to him, my duty 
and my obligation was not to change my plans for my life - but to 
live it as if he was still there.

I was to have no responsibility to his memory, except to be the 
person I would be if he was there for me. I was to live for myself. I 
was to put myself first.

Nice try, Dad.

But it doesn't work that way.

Yes, I'll live the life I'd live if you were still with me.

But you can't ask me to always put myself first because the two 
things aren't compatible.

With your example, alive or dead, that really isn't an option.

I don't know who is reading this - but considering where I plan to 
post it, I think I can be sure that there are at least some parents 
out there who are sacrificing for their children and who are fighting 
for what their children need educationally.

You people are heroes. And I hope your kids understand that. Or at 
least I hope they do someday, if they don't at the moment.

**********

This tribute (with some images added to it) can be seen at:

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/fifteenyears.html

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at ... | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec  9 22:27:32 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:27:32 -0000
Subject: Filk: The DE Yuletide Song
Message-ID: <dnd0ck+ld4r@...>

Another one for the Christmas filk challenge.

To the tune of The Christmas Song (Chestnuts roasting on an open 
fire)


House Elves roasting on an open fire,
Green skulls shining on your home.
Tortured screaming that will sound like a choir,
And folks dressed up in old dark robes.

Everybody knows a muggle and some
Crucio help to make the season bright.
Voldemort with his eyes all aglow
Will make it hard to sleep tonight.

You know that Voldy's on his way,
He's loaded lots of ghouls and werewolves
on his sleigh.

And ev'ry DE's
Child is gonna spy to see if
Dumbledore did know how to fly.

As so, as you hunt up some
Shielding spells, for all from
One to ninety-two

Altho' it's been said many times,
We'll just say:
"A Dark Yuletide, to you."




Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 11 20:00:44 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:00:44 -0000
Subject: OT: 15 years ago today...
In-Reply-To: <439A1C1F.29612.2B7749F@localhost>
Message-ID: <dni0hc+59ok@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...>
wrote:
>
> Fifteen years ago today, my father died. (snip)
> Yes, I'll live the life I'd live if you were still with me.
> But you can't ask me to always put myself first because the two 
> things aren't compatible. 
> With your example, alive or dead, that really isn't an option.

I cried.







From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 11 20:02:56 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:02:56 -0000
Subject: politics - Muggle and wizarding, modern and Renaissance
Message-ID: <dni0lg+7hn8@...>

David Frankis wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3472 :

<< "this person sports a beard, and therefore sets explosive
devices near laboratories where animal experiments take place" >>

I fantasize that the syllogism says: 
'this person sports a SCRUFFY beard'.

<< My own solution is to make handguns available to the population on
demand, and then these people would soon be put in their place. It
does Mr Blair credit that, in his adherence to Mr Bush's lead in
everything, he shows that he recognises this problem. >>

??? Blair wants to make firearms less restricted ???

Nora wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3475 :

<< The blood ideology seems to be the dominant form of bigotry in the
series. It's the one given a giant past from founding on, and has
been shown in the actions of any number of characters (Voldie, Lucius
Malfoy, Sluggy, Fudge, the whole Ministry) to be the primary cancer
of wizarding society. >>

Mmmph. 

I think there are arguments to be made for corruption or anarchism
being its primary cancer, or that the corruption results from the
anarchism. 

Anarchism: Some poster somewhere posted that the wizard folk are
obsessed with power, especially magical power, to the point of not
caring what the power is used for. I would say 'respectful' rather
than 'obsessed', and would say 'tolerant of different values' rather
than 'not caring', but the result is a general social tolerance of
some people are KNOWN to use Dark Magic, to buy cheap by threatening
to curse the seller and sell dear by deluding the buyer, to get
regulations passed in their favor by bribing Ministry officials, etc. 

Some individuals (like Weasleys and Potters) are very condemnatory of
such behavior and can even be said to be on the Light Side (even tho'
we've SEEN Arthur do a bit of corruption, getting his friends off from
punishment and acquiring those Top Box tickets) but the dislike
between Dark Side and Light Side is like the Muggle dislike between
'conservatives' and 'liberals' as displayed in the recent posts about
Fair Isle sweaters.

This makes the wizarding world a very fun place to read about and
fantasize about, but not such a fun place to live (at least for those
with lesser amounts of power). Somehow that reminds me of once at a
party, years ago, I started raving about Renaissance Florence,
something about philosophy being rediscovered and people getting
drunks on words with it, and the art, and science beginning to be
re-invented, and being a Republic led to a whole new kind of political
scheming, and love affairs, and there were constant duels to the
death, and assassinations, and the Black Plague every summer, and it
was a FABULOUS place to live if you thought you were immortal, and Lee
said: "In other words, if you were a teenager."






From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec 12 11:08:02 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:08:02 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dn1hbn+9jp3@...>
References: <dn1hbn+9jp3@...>
Message-ID: <200512121208.02407.silmariel@...>


Sorry, took longer than expected.

> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...>
>
> wrote:
> > Mmm never? Oh, well. Let's say then that her interests and that of
> > her readers converge here. She likes writing him, we like/hate
> > reading him, but few people has a no-reaction to him.

> Nora:
> He does get a disproportionate reaction in terms of his page time.  I
> wonder if we aren't pinning too much weight and importance on him,
> though.
>

Let's see him pre and post-Hbp. Till OoP I simply could say I though he was 
written to get attention, he is very theatrical, he is given scenarios. Of 
course, it may be to much reading on my part, but the 'there's more to Snape 
than first met the eye' was something I had clear. Nowhere in the Aliens saga 
is the beast used as in the first film, and we all know that was made though 
carefully considered appearances.

Post HBP, if I am to find that Snape is not central to the plot, I would have 
the same objection I had with preHBP serves-for-nothing Draco. Now I see 
Rowling has done something relevant with the character that justifies so much 
screen time for the little brat, with him not being even an adequate rival 
for Harry (in the past, that is, when he was only an annoyance).

She didn't need more screen time or other methods than in the other books. 
Snape has been always there,  lurking, making a few 'let's get attention' 
appearances, and that was ok, to me.

Now I have images of pink flamingos, I mean, all this paraphernalia of the HBP 
textbook is out of the treatment I was used for Snape, and not needed at all, 
imo, so she must be setting the scenario for something. 

> > She loves the characters she kills, that's true. About Grawp, well,
> > she did write Dobby, she did write Sirius.
>
> And she has genuine affection for the latter (per interview), which
> seems to grate upon some to no end.  You can't predict everything
> based on who the author likes or not, but it's not a bad heuristic
> for the tone of their ultimate treatment.
>

I think you can love a character and at the same time have no mercy regarding 
what you consider to be his faults, and dislike, at a visceral level, a 
character, and nonetheless be able to see his good points. It seems she does 
it, by the way she talks of Sirius. My concerns start where she doesn't seem 
to be aware of the character she's made.

With Ginny, for example, I have a conflict when it comes to Zacharias Smith. 
She sais she hexes him because he annoyed her. To start, Ginny is easily 
annoyed, but to end, what I know of that guy from OoP is that he was a 
non-traitorous DADA member whose worst crime was to be an skeptic and to be 
brave enough to confront Harry with the doubts half or more the wizarding 
population had. Perfect girl? Huh? Integration of the houses, remember, not 
hexing Hufflepuffes that I'm not aware exactly why (offscreen, sorry) are 
supposed to be annoying to the point of being hexed.

> I suspect that's a rather rarified way of reading the events which
> have taken place, although it's surely one that she's thought of.  I
> have no faith in any of my predictions, but 'hiding in plain sight'
> may well be the strategy.  I can think of all the supposed
> discrepancies and little clues in past books which haven't proven out
> yet.  Given that, it wouldn't shock me that she put a BANG at the end
> of book 6 to work through its side-effects (and not reverse it) in
> book 7.  YMMV.
>

Peter was hiden in plain sight, also Barty Crouch, also Remus Lupin had it 
tatooed in the name he was a werewolf. She's made an habit of it, I can 
assure you than when authors do not play mouse and cat with me and they are 
WYSIWYG I don't go looking for hiding in the front surprises. We've also seen 
the ESE Sirius turning to be an ok guy.

But for tastes, I really don't care in the least if Snape is bad, only that 
she has to make it very good considering the text for not almost every other 
character being dumb, and well, if so, what a pity. Check author as not 
relevant, go on to the next. 

If he is bad and nonetheless the books are elegant, I'd be the first to 
applaud, but I can't see, with elements in hand, such a good and edged 
traitor as ESE!Lupin as depicted by Pippin, would be. The sweeter the tongue, 
the harsher the bite.

Sincerely if Snape is ESE he has been doing certain things that I don't quite 
understand, as not being unconscious a little more time in PoA, that perfect 
oportunity to get ridden of Harry (by Lupin, no less :). The argument that he 
needs Harry alive to defeat LV and so turn into the next dark lord is purely 
anti the character himself, imo, I'm glad JK agrees with me here. 

What I know is that I can't trust and I have to recheck everything Harry 
thinks or deducts, because he has a very narrow view, and he usually 
diminishes or ignores useful clues until the end when he suddenly understands 
everything as an ephiphany. 

I haven't seen that change this year. He didn't even see coming that Snape was 
the HBP and he accepted multiple versions of what Tonks was about, and that 
he happened to be right about Malfoy only tells me that if you always play to 
the same number in the lottery, if it is the winning number, you'll win, but 
doesn't add anything, imo, in Harry's deductive capabilities. So I expect him 
to be utterly wrong about people's affiliations, as always.

The thing is, all those discrepancies are not if Snape is DDM and she pulls 
out a good reason for all the things DD has been saying about Snape (and the 
conditions, just after Sirius death it is not the time to attack Sirius and 
defend Snape, but she did it).

> Maybe so, but does he have the scale and the ferocity.  I don't know
> how Rowling is going to pull off her denoument, whether it's going to
> be death or some other mechanism.
>

I think by fantasy standars he is ridiculous, he is the kind of problem to get 
ridden of in a book. I think the scale is adecuate, but too real and the 
organization, methods and ideology also. It clashes with him as Dark Lord. 

When Dark Lords go dumb disbelief is not suspended, when the brightest wizard 
Howgards had goes really dumb, being him too tied to reality, I can't help 
but laughing a little. Is the risk of meshing genres, imo, because when I 
read about the DL supossed intelligence in a high fantasy book, I know I can 
expect him to be stupid, but Voldemorts falls short in the make believe 
category. Maybe if he wasn't called Dark Lord but another tittle and had less 
delirious gore tastes for decorating his horcruxes (an obsession for deaths 
can be expressed in other ways), I could take him seriously. Or not, as in 
fantasy. But he is in the middle, and doesn't work, for me.

That said, Voldemort is not the DE and the whole war, he's only the DL.

The how is he going to be dispatched off hasn't interested me. I though Jo's 
suggestion that Neville could be a living HX was interesting because as sure 
as Harry is willing to sacrifice himself, he wouldn't be willing to sacrifice 
Neville.

> The blood ideology seems to be the dominant form of bigotry in the
> series.  It's the one given a giant past from founding on, and has
> been shown in the actions of any number of characters (Voldie, Lucius
> Malfoy, Sluggy, Fudge, the whole Ministry) to be the primary cancer
> of wizarding society.
>

It's the most visible, but I think the point is, it doesn't mind why you 
discriminate, only that you do.

Say, the blood ideology is only the current excuse for discrimination, but 
Voldemort would find another, as adherence to any doctrine, or invent it if 
required. 

I think it is a very useful tool because we get sided with the muggles, so she 
can make us hate the other part, the one that is attacking us, instead of 
seeing externally the problem, in wich case I assume everyone would have 
caught by now her 'integration is the response' approach. Liked it or not, 
agreed or not, but caught it.

But of course, if you are trying to make the point of how easily is for 
violence and anger to enquist and escalate to the point of blinding reason, 
this is a perfect approach, and the more Slytherin, Draco and Snape are 
viscerally scapegoated by the fandom, the better. Blood lust, imo, very well 
developed by the author.

> It means that she makes him (IMO) even more bathetic than genuinely
> pathetic.  (Pathetic is a hard word to use in this case because it
> makes me think of both older and newer connotations of the word).  

Mmm sorry I was only aware of the 'deserves pity' meaning.

> I
> must be one of the only readers who actually found Snape *less*
> sympathetic after OotP: it was a case of "You've been sulking and
> sitting on all of *that* for so many years?"  I guess that he would
> like to present himself as justified and the wronged party, but his
> version of "me me me" is used by Rowling to make him ridiculous, too.
>

I detailed at lenght in a post why I didn't buy that argument as being 
aceptable, because I agree, that's not a reason to remember and hate during 
15 years, with your enemies: 1 dead with spouse, 1 in jail, 1 as a pet, 1 as 
a discarded member of society. DD sais some scars don't heal, not that Snape 
has been unable to heal them, which would be more appropiate considering he 
has just remarked Sirius' faults. I think everybody agrees that particular 
scars do heal in most of cases, so DD would be downright unfair and OOC, imo, 
in trying to defend Snape if that's all he had.

But the worst memory incident did contained a line that I thought to be 
enlightening: Harry though it wasn't fine to do that to Snape, instead, say, 
Draco, *who deserved it*. As I think no one deserves bullying, I thought 
Harry had crossed a line.

> > I don't particularly like the Goth side, I prefer the sarcastic
> > bastard side.
>
> About half the time the humor is sharp and cutting, the other half
> it's fifth-grader caliber.  The latter is supremely embarrassing when
> being used by a grown man upon his student charges.  Again, YMMV.
>

Yes, this is the point where the fantasy does work for me and would be boring 
not to have him as a teacher, I also don't imagine as real the Longbottom 
family throwing him out of the window to see if he is magical, it goes in the 
fantasy pack.

> > He's the Spock type. Don't ask me how it works, but it always
> > works.
>
> One wonders what the fandom fallout will be if Rowling decides to
> puncture that possibility...
>

I think she is unaware, or she would be an hypocrite if surprised by questions 
about snape and romance. But the archetipe is wide-spreaded, so she doesn't 
need to have made the connection to that particular character, it's only that 
I can't help but seeing it.

> -Nora keeps her options open, but notes that there are a lot of fans
> on both sides of issues who would be devastated to be wrong
>

Agreed. 

Silmariel



From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec 12 14:38:45 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:38:45 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <200512121208.02407.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dnk21l+hacq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> 
wrote:

> My concerns start where she doesn't seem to be aware of the 
> character she's made.

<snip description of Ginny>

For heuristic purposes, I think a different tack is more productive.  
She says what she has about Ginny, and that gives us insight into how 
she's thinking of the character and her role.  Ignored and 
complicated in the ways that *we* want to complicate it at our own 
risk.  I remember a thousand predictions that Harry would wise up and 
not have anything to do with that nasty manipulative Dumbledore in 
book 6, too.  For predictive purposes in a WIP, betting against the 
author is a losing proposition.

> Sincerely if Snape is ESE he has been doing certain things that I 
> don't quite understand, as not being unconscious a little more time 
> in PoA, that perfect oportunity to get ridden of Harry (by Lupin, 
> no less :). The argument that he needs Harry alive to defeat LV and 
> so turn into the next dark lord is purely anti the character 
> himself, imo, I'm glad JK agrees with me here. 

ESE from the beginning of time Snape doesn't make too much sense to 
me, either.  That's why I (and others) have postulated a Snape 
described as OFH--out for himself.  This allows for his allegiances 
to shift and waver depending on the situation and what stresses he's 
under.  DDM!Snape seems to be as rock-hard and dependable as diamond 
despite his manifest emotions and biases, which I admit I find hard 
to buy.  OFH!Snape looks at both sides and looks for the best place 
to be--and he doesn't know he's in a series of books called "Harry 
Potter and the...".

> So I expect him to be utterly wrong about people's affiliations, as 
> always.

The 'always' assumption is a potentially dangerous one, because it 
sees the series expanding into infinity much as it's already gone.  
Good mathematics, perhaps, but not good literature, which often 
depends upon the breaking of repeated cycles and the resultant 
thwarting of reader expectations/predictions.

> But he is in the middle, and doesn't work, for me.

On the other hand, see above and the Ginny comments.  "Works for me" 
and "works for the author" have nothing to do with each other.  Their 
importance to us depends on what mode we're in.  I'm in predictive; 
I'll go back to critical when the pieces are all here.
 
> It's the most visible, but I think the point is, it doesn't mind 
> why you discriminate, only that you do.

I don't think so.  I think there's something particularly about blood 
ideology, its kind of essentialism, which is being singled out.  I 
don't think Voldemort could have built what he did on the doctrine 
of "kill the stupid", for instance. :)

> But of course, if you are trying to make the point of how easily is 
> for violence and anger to enquist and escalate to the point of 
> blinding reason, this is a perfect approach, and the more 
> Slytherin, Draco and Snape are viscerally scapegoated by the 
> fandom, the better. Blood lust, imo, very well developed by the 
> author.

I think she has some problems with how Slytherin is scapegoated by 
the fandom.  However, this relates to a point below...

> But the worst memory incident did contained a line that I thought 
> to be enlightening: Harry though it wasn't fine to do that to 
> Snape, instead, say, Draco, *who deserved it*. As I think no one 
> deserves bullying, I thought Harry had crossed a line.

I wonder how this meshes with a part of Rowling's own worldview, 
talking about Umbridge:

MA: Are we going to see more of her? [Jo nods.] You say that with an
evil nod.

JKR: Yeah, it's too much fun to torture her not to have another
little bit more before I finish.

----------------

She clearly believes in giving ill-behaving characters their 
comeuppance, in her role as the writer of the story.  I'm not saying 
that she thinks Harry is justified in his "he deserved it" towards 
Draco, but JKR *has* made Draco the punching bag for several books, 
making him the object of what I think of as deserved Schadenfreude.  
She's writing the books and thus gets to choose what kind of moral 
universe that she's presenting, and some kind of karmic payback seems 
to be operative.  It's open whether this has now shifted, and whether 
it applies more to minor characters (Lockhart comes to mind) than to 
major and more complex players.

> Yes, this is the point where the fantasy does work for me and would 
> be boring not to have him as a teacher, I also don't imagine as 
> real the Longbottom family throwing him out of the window to see if 
> he is magical, it goes in the fantasy pack.

I'm a little lost here, because it's all 'real' in the context of the 
books.  No reason not to assume that the Longbottoms really did toss 
him out the window.  Or is it more that you can say "Oh, fantasy--
doesn't bother me", unlike the bullying which is all too "real"?

There's a difficult question, because it's arbitrary/unique to each 
person where to draw this line.  One person may take seriously 
something which is purely fantastic to another, and then we get sharp 
arguments about meaning and importance.

-Nora would bet the farm that "Who on earth would want Snape in love 
with them?" will have a clear antecedent statement/event by the time 
we finish the series






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 13 09:56:42 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:56:42 -0000
Subject: politics
In-Reply-To: <dni0lg+7hn8@...>
Message-ID: <dnm5sq+3fni@...>

I wrote:
> 
> << My own solution is to make handguns available to the population on
> demand, and then these people would soon be put in their place. It
> does Mr Blair credit that, in his adherence to Mr Bush's lead in
> everything, he shows that he recognises this problem. >>
> 
> ??? Blair wants to make firearms less restricted ???

No, my sarcasm was just disappearing up its own orifice that day.  All 
I meant was that Blair tends to copy Bush.  But he really only does so 
in foreign affairs, and not always then, of course.

David







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 13 14:30:40 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:30:40 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnk21l+hacq@...>
Message-ID: <dnmlug+5kg0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
>

> ESE from the beginning of time Snape doesn't make too much sense to 
> me, either.  That's why I (and others) have postulated a Snape 
> described as OFH--out for himself.  This allows for his allegiances 
> to shift and waver depending on the situation and what stresses he's 
> under.  DDM!Snape seems to be as rock-hard and dependable as diamond 
> despite his manifest emotions and biases, which I admit I find hard 
> to buy.  

Pippin:
Part of the fun of being a Snape fan is inventing excuses for Snape. Taken
altogether, they would make a white-washed individual barely recognizable
as the character from the books. People do the same for their other favorites,
such as Harry and Sirius, excusing behavior of which the author herself
has been critical.

It is not necessary to find Snape "rock-hard and dependable as diamond" 
in order for him to be DDM. Even Harry wavers occasionally, is misled by 
his biases and his emotions, and is deeply unwilling to accept Dumbledore's 
assurances as to other people's innocence. But his allegiance is not easily
shifted, for all that.

Nora:
OFH!Snape looks at both sides and looks for the best place 
> to be--and he doesn't know he's in a series of books called "Harry 
> Potter and the...".

Pippin:
And despite this long habit, neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort regards
him as particularly slippery? OFH!Lucius Malfoy is more like it, methinks.

Nora:
> 
> I don't think so.  I think there's something particularly about blood 
> ideology, its kind of essentialism, which is being singled out.  I 
> don't think Voldemort could have built what he did on the doctrine 
> of "kill the stupid", for instance. :)

Pippin:
What about anti-werewolf bias? That seems to be moving front and
center,  ESE!Lupin or no. It's interesting that Fenrir seems to
be trying to create a racial identity for werewolves, that it's something
he thinks they need in order to gain recognition for their interests.

I said, over on TOL, that even innocent young Harry's dearest 
dream was to be surrounded by people who look just like him, and
people wondered what I was talking about. Here's the passage:

"And slowly, Harry looked into the faces of the other people in the
mirror, and saw other pairs of green eyes like his, even a little
old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobbly knees --
Harry was looking at his family, for the first time in his life.

The Potters smiled and waved at Harry..." -PS/SS ch 12

Isn't it strange how our hearts go out to Harry, and yet his dream
is little different than Slytherin's? Harry even assumes that he
gets all his desirable traits from his wizard relatives, the Potters,
and yet we know (and so would he if he thought about it) that
his green eyes come from Mum. 

If the blood ideology is singled out, it's because it's more
ubiquitous than most of us are willing to admit, and harder
to fight because we may be indeed biased genetically toward
the familiar. But the enemy is intolerance, not the longing for
family, don't you think?


Nora:
> She clearly believes in giving ill-behaving characters their 
> comeuppance, in her role as the writer of the story.  I'm not saying 
> that she thinks Harry is justified in his "he deserved it" towards 
> Draco, but JKR *has* made Draco the punching bag for several books, 
> making him the object of what I think of as deserved Schadenfreude.  

Pippin:
Harry got some too. I started HBP with a group first time through
(waves to Rita and CV) and we all agreed that Harry got what he deserved
with Draco's train stomp. So it isn't just the chronically ill-behaved
who get comeuppance. I think that while JKR indulges herself in
punishing the manifestly guilty, she regards it as highly dangerous for
her characters to make themselves the agents of comeuppance. They
too will get what they deserve. Judge not...

Dumbledore rarely punishes, and when he confronts wrongdoers,
he seems more inclined to teach than to vent his wrath. Even the
bouncing wineglasses he visits on the Dursleys seem more directed
at getting their attention than at negative reinforcement. Though it
could be I am just whitewashing my favorite character, I suppose. <g>

Pippin






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 04:45:49 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 04:45:49 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnmlug+5kg0@...>
Message-ID: <dno81t+di7i@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
> And despite this long habit, neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort 
> regards him as particularly slippery? OFH!Lucius Malfoy is more 
> like it, methinks.

Lucius Malfoy maybe--but one thing I got absolutely dead-to-rights in 
HBP is that Lucius Malfoy is the most over-estimated character in the 
fandom, not the second coming of the Dark Lord.  

> Pippin:
> What about anti-werewolf bias? That seems to be moving front and
> center,  ESE!Lupin or no. It's interesting that Fenrir seems to
> be trying to create a racial identity for werewolves, that it's 
> something he thinks they need in order to gain recognition for 
> their interests.

On the other hand, anti-werewolf bias doesn't have the constructive 
factor that the blood prejudice does.  That both says something good 
about some people (we're innately superior) and provides a scapegoat 
group.  "We're not werewolves" isn't structually similar.

> Isn't it strange how our hearts go out to Harry, and yet his dream
> is little different than Slytherin's? Harry even assumes that he
> gets all his desirable traits from his wizard relatives, the 
Potters,
> and yet we know (and so would he if he thought about it) that
> his green eyes come from Mum. 

I don't exactly get your sinister reading here, because I'm inclined 
to read "Potters" as shorthand for "all the relatives".  But maybe 
there's a nuance here that JKR is indicating to us.

> If the blood ideology is singled out, it's because it's more
> ubiquitous than most of us are willing to admit, and harder
> to fight because we may be indeed biased genetically toward
> the familiar. But the enemy is intolerance, not the longing for
> family, don't you think?

Not all intolerances are created equal, in the Potterverse.  I 
wouldn't say that intolerance isn't a theme, but on the other hand, I 
wouldn't be that happily generic, either, and throw everything into 
the pot as just 'different' manifestations of the same global problem.

> Pippin:
> Harry got some too. I started HBP with a group first time through
> (waves to Rita and CV) and we all agreed that Harry got what he 
> deserved with Draco's train stomp. 

Ummm, so non-aggressive snooping deserves a broken nose?  Goodness, I 
hate to think what you'd consider Snape to have deserved for 
following the Marauders around, snooping on them like he was.

-Nora curses at a leaky window that won't close all the way






From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 11:31:26 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:31:26 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dno81t+di7i@...>
References: <dno81t+di7i@...>
Message-ID: <200512141231.26802.silmariel@...>


> > Pippin:
> > And despite this long habit, neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort
> > regards him as particularly slippery? OFH!Lucius Malfoy is more
> > like it, methinks.
>

Yes yes, I have some OFH characters in mind and they don't quite overlap with 
Snape but with Lucius, Mundungus, Slughorn... and particularly Voldemort, I 
don't perceive any sense of belonging in him, he's all for himself. To guard 
apparent allegiance to a wizard 1000 years dead is quite of an excuse, I'm 
sure that if old Sally resurrected, they wouldn't join forces and happily 
hunt the bad side (from their PoV). Voldemort won't accept anything or anyone 
opposing to /him/, imo, not to his side.There's a reason that wizards don't 
rule the world, it's called wizards... (waves to Pratchett)

OFHs... Han Solo (at least that's how he starts), Riddick (from Pitch Black), 
Martin (from Flesh&Blood, by Verhoeven), Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean, 
mostly every replicant in Blade Runner... open to suggestions, I really don't 
remember too many OFHs.

I can make a personality for both DDM and ESE Snape's that maintains behaviour 
and speeches in canon, but I don't get anything coherent with OFH Snape, will 
you explain how do you see him? 

But more particularly, I'd like to express my desbelief that Harry will be 
able to notice the distinction between an OFH Snape and an ESE Snape. It will 
be hard enough for him to make some sort of ammends with DDM Snape, but I 
can't picture him entering in subtle distinctions between evil and 
oportunist, detatched, egoist... regarding to Snape, of course, I don't say 
he can't allow it in other characters who are not hated by him, but in Snape, 
that figure of all that is bad in this world?  

Nora:
> Lucius Malfoy maybe--but one thing I got absolutely dead-to-rights in
> HBP is that Lucius Malfoy is the most over-estimated character in the
> fandom, not the second coming of the Dark Lord.
>

It must be the hair, or that OFHs are sometimes more liked that not, after 
all, if he is in Voldie's side apparently but really OFH, is fine. Or the 
hair, really. I agree he's been amply over estimated, unless JKR breaks that 
particular trend of making him not worthy as DE (or as anything).

> > Pippin:
> > What about anti-werewolf bias? That seems to be moving front and
> > center,  ESE!Lupin or no. It's interesting that Fenrir seems to
> > be trying to create a racial identity for werewolves, that it's
> > something he thinks they need in order to gain recognition for
> > their interests.
>
Nora:
> On the other hand, anti-werewolf bias doesn't have the constructive
> factor that the blood prejudice does.  That both says something good
> about some people (we're innately superior) and provides a scapegoat
> group.  "We're not werewolves" isn't structually similar.
>

Huh? So what? I mean, as general message not to us that inspect the series 
inch by inch, but to the general public. It dehumanices all the same. Blood 
is easier to see for us, but it is not the only means of selection. I don't 
notice the difference between being an ill treated werewolf, an ill treated 
house elf, an ill treated muggle, or an ill treated wizard with an interest 
in dark arts.

I think that is clear in DD's message, so as visible as the DE factor can be, 
if we think that's /the/ problem, and not the lack of integration, we'll have 
the same problems over and over again, just with other labels.

Then, I don't mind having such an I'm sure you'll think simple and generic 
approach, I'm not a scholar, but I think intolerance makes a big appearance 
in scene.

Nora:
> Ummm, so non-aggressive snooping deserves a broken nose?

That comes from the end of OoP train scene, sure, not for snooping.

Silmariel, who has just learned what she does when she snoops players.



From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 15:05:45 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:05:45 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <200512141231.26802.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dnpcc9+u7sf@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> 
wrote:

> But more particularly, I'd like to express my desbelief that Harry 
> will be able to notice the distinction between an OFH Snape and an 
> ESE Snape. It will be hard enough for him to make some sort of 
> ammends with DDM Snape, but I can't picture him entering in subtle 
> distinctions between evil and oportunist, detatched, egoist... 
> regarding to Snape, of course, I don't say he can't allow it in 
> other characters who are not hated by him, but in Snape, that 
> figure of all that is bad in this world?  

I dunno.  We get some kind of scene with explanations, and we get 
a "Oh, I tried to be good for a while, but I couldn't stand it" 
comment, or something where Snape is disparaging of both of his 
masters--not too hard to realize that this isn't the fanatical 
Bellatrix, but something rather different and maybe even worse 
(depends on your criteria). :)

> I don't notice the difference between being an ill treated 
> werewolf, an ill treated house elf, an ill treated muggle, or an 
> ill treated wizard with an interest in dark arts.

I'm saying that these different messages of discrimination don't 
produce quite the same results; Voldie could do specific things with 
blood as his banner that he couldn't do with other messages.  And 
this is one case where I want to argue for specificity rather than 
thinking in generals, because only that will let us account for plot 
details.  It's like treating fascism, where each instantiation of a 
fascist state has different factors and your model has to be tweaked.

> Nora:
>> Ummm, so non-aggressive snooping deserves a broken nose?
> 
> That comes from the end of OoP train scene, sure, not for snooping.

My copy of OotP presents Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle attempting to 
ambush Harry on the train, and not realizing they're near the DA 
compartment and thus getting jumped en masse.  Again, there's the 
pattern of direct provocation (and thus intention) meriting the big 
stick--and this is the pattern we're always given with Draco the 
instigator.  I just don't see that as the same structural pattern as 
snooping, and there are some issues with playing this kind of delayed 
accounting.  YMMV.

-Nora wakes up nicely past the sun






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 17:19:27 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:19:27 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnpcc9+u7sf@...>
Message-ID: <dnpk6v+cf5b@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
ith explanations, and we get 
> a "Oh, I tried to be good for a while, but I couldn't stand it" 
> comment, or something where Snape is disparaging of both of his 
> masters--not too hard to realize that this isn't the fanatical 
> Bellatrix, but something rather different and maybe even worse 
> (depends on your criteria). :)

Pippin:
I can't see how that would look different to Harry than Quirrell's
"There is no good and evil, there is  only power, and those
too weak to seek it."  Then we have Voldemort himself telling 
the Death Eaters that Quirrell was naive. 

The story line is presented as a battle between good and evil, with
only the naive  and the unperceptive thinking that in a world where 
Love is reified and dwells behind a door, mere humans have the option 
of neutrality. Love doesn't allow it and Voldemort won't accept it. 
I don't think we're supposed to  see  present day Severus as naive
or unperceptive.

Voldemort accepts that, left to themselves,  most of his servants 
would be OFH. If they weren't they'd have come to look for him or gone to 
Azkaban. But Snape is not "the one who will come back when I make him 
an offer he can't refuse." He's the one who, if he's gone, "has left me forever."


Silmariel:
> 
> > I don't notice the difference between being an ill treated 
> > werewolf, an ill treated house elf, an ill treated muggle, or an 
> > ill treated wizard with an interest in dark arts.

Nora: 
> I'm saying that these different messages of discrimination don't 
> produce quite the same results; Voldie could do specific things with 
> blood as his banner that he couldn't do with other messages.  And 
> this is one case where I want to argue for specificity rather than 
> thinking in generals, because only that will let us account for plot 
> details.  It's like treating fascism, where each instantiation of a 
> fascist state has different factors and your model has to be tweaked.

Pippin:

It's not the pureblood wizards, even  among the Death Eaters, who
are  ready to kill or die for Voldemort.  There's only about thirty
Inner Circle DE's, and even most of them aren't willing to endure
Azkaban for their master. 

Voldemort's armies come from the communities of the downtrodden,
the Giants and the werewolves, and from the dementors, who are
created by suffering and misery, not by racial separatism. 

Voldemort draws on the sense of community and the longing for
one's own, but I think the books show these as only sinister when 
joined to paranoia and the hunger for power. Slytherin's fear of the
Muggleborn is an offshoot of the persecuting society which Muggles
established in the middle ages, when nobody had any idea of
races at all.


But there are real genetic differences between the races of Elves, Goblins,
etc, which probably can't and shouldn't be erased. If Slytherin had
been a Goblin, would it have been wrong to have a Goblin house?


It was when Slytherin began to think that  only purebloods should 
learn magic that strife began. But we learn from 
the Hat that all the founders sought to rule, which implies that they
began to think that power should belong only to the brave, the 
intelligent, or the loyal. Slytherin's paranoia infected everyone and
they all wanted there to be some kind of test. 

What we see in the books is that there is no test. People and beings may act in
concert, but they have to be judged as individuals, just as the hat does,
one at a time. 

> 
> > Nora:
> >> Ummm, so non-aggressive snooping deserves a broken nose?

Silmariel:
> > That comes from the end of OoP train scene, sure, not for snooping.

Pippin:
Also from the end of GoF train scene, where verbal aggression is escalated
to physical aggression by our heroes, who attack from behind five 
against three, stomp on Draco, push him out of the compartment and
leave him to be discovered by his adult guardians, or not.

At any rate characterizing forcible entry, "Harry seized the door
and pushed it open, hard;" as non-aggressive seems rather lenient to me.

Delayed accounting is what karmic retribution is all about. The sins of
the fathers are visited on the children, beginning with Dudley's pig tail,
culminating in Dumbledore's OOP speech "We wizards have mistreated
and abused our fellows for too  long, and we are now reaping our
reward."  Voldemort *is* what the wizarding community
deserves, Snape is what Harry deserves for his father's treatment of Snape,
but there is a power in the Potterverse greater than karmic
retribution, "at once more wonderful and terrible than death, than
human intelligence, than forces of nature." Harry's job is to break the
cycle of offense and retribution, not to give the wheel another spin, IMO.

Pippin






From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 18:20:09 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:20:09 -0000
Subject: Dragons...etc, now philosophical vs individual allegiance
In-Reply-To: <200512141231.26802.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dnpnop+i2qb@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:

> > > Pippin:
> > > And despite this long habit, neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort
> > > regards him as particularly slippery? OFH!Lucius Malfoy is more
> > > like it, methinks.
> >
> 
> Yes yes, I have some OFH characters in mind and they don't quite overlap with 
> Snape but with Lucius, Mundungus, Slughorn... and particularly Voldemort, I 
> don't perceive any sense of belonging in him, he's all for himself. To guard 
> apparent allegiance to a wizard 1000 years dead is quite of an excuse, I'm 
> sure that if old Sally resurrected, they wouldn't join forces and happily 
> hunt the bad side (from their PoV). Voldemort won't accept anything or anyone 
> opposing to /him/, imo, not to his side.There's a reason that wizards don't 
> rule the world, it's called wizards... (waves to Pratchett)
> 
<snip"

> Nora:
> > Lucius Malfoy maybe--but one thing I got absolutely dead-to-rights in
> > HBP is that Lucius Malfoy is the most over-estimated character in the
> > fandom, not the second coming of the Dark Lord.
> >


Now Lyn:

I would posit that Lucius is a philosophical and true follower of Slytherin. Only to the 
extent that LV exemplifies and furthers the mission of Sally, is Lucius truly on board. Yes, 
Lucius is self serving, but he defines what is self serving in terms of a political/social 
philosophy that he and others identify as Sally's. Lucius is more devoted to his House, than 
to LV.

Riddle, of course, is notable in that as Tom, the source of his wizarding identity came from 
his Slytherin lineage, which he appreciated as a means to validate his personal sense of 
importance (in the usual fashion of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder). In transforming his 
identity into LV (rather than drawing on a name that would play up his lineage--say 
changing it to Thomas Slytherin), he began to make clear his desire to exist above and 
seperate from his lineage, rather than merely the foremost disciple of his ancestor. Those 
who knew LV least, many of whom joined as followers of the Slytherin political/social 
philosophy, did so believing that support for LV was an advancement of the Slytherin 
cause; what they came to learn was that LV demanded an all encompassing personal 
allegiance that was more a cult based on an individual, rather than a social/political 
philosophy. I suspect this is the source of the underlying tension between him and Lucius. 
Lucius is not so much in it solely for himself, and certainly not for LV, but entered into LV's 
service to advance Slytherin's mission. Bella, on the other hand, clearly exemplifies an 
allegience to LV the individual, with political/philosophical missions really being rather 
incidental to her infatuation.

Just some thoughts. 







From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 18:36:10 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:36:10 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnpk6v+cf5b@...>
Message-ID: <dnpomq+pn68@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> Delayed accounting is what karmic retribution is all about. The 
> sins of the fathers are visited on the children, beginning with 
> Dudley's pig tail, culminating in Dumbledore's OOP speech "We 
> wizards have mistreated and abused our fellows for too  long, and 
> we are now reaping our reward."  Voldemort *is* what the wizarding 
> community deserves, Snape is what Harry deserves for his father's 
> treatment of Snape, but there is a power in the Potterverse greater 
> than karmic retribution, "at once more wonderful and terrible than 
> death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature." Harry's job 
> is to break the cycle of offense and retribution, not to give the 
> wheel another spin, IMO.

I have a hard time equating all of these 'deserves' with each other, 
because there's such a fast and loose transference of responsibility 
going on here.  (And as people who study institutions will also tell 
you, things like "society deserves, society causes" can get messy fast 
because it's such a grand way to obscure agency and specific 
mechanisms.)

So Harry Our Hero is going to break the chains of karma and do so with 
magnanimity.  I can see this happening, but I wonder about the possible 
overtones of "suck it up and deal" which many posters seem to be in 
favor of, but I don't see JKR going for.  You'll also note that many of 
her 'karmic' examples are quite specific--Umbridge damaged by beings 
which she overtly disdains, Lockheart taken down by his own weapon, 
Lucius Malfoy smacked around by the very same house elf which he had 
abused for years, etc.  Continue any of that pattern, at least 
partially (with a twist on it), and we have the tools of the tormentors 
specifically turning back upon them as well.

But to extend that to the lengths which this does--it makes me uneasy, 
although it may well be right.

And Pippin, I still want to know if you'd then agree that Snape got 
what he 'deserved' for snooping around, quite possibly with force (or 
at least covert magic). :)

-Nora, who likes to keep making more fine distinctions






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 20:24:44 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 20:24:44 +0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
Message-ID: <32E600BB-B9C3-4C52-A807-6E1ACC9DBDD4@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:
 >
 > Yes yes, I have some OFH characters in mind and they don't quite  
overlap with
 > Snape but with Lucius, Mundungus, Slughorn... and particularly  
Voldemort, I
 > don't perceive any sense of belonging in him, he's all for  
himself. To guard
 > apparent allegiance to a wizard 1000 years dead is quite of an  
excuse, I'm
 > sure that if old Sally resurrected, they wouldn't join forces and  
happily
 > hunt the bad side (from their PoV). Voldemort won't accept  
anything or anyone
 > opposing to /him/, imo, not to his side.There's a reason that  
wizards don't
 > rule the world, it's called wizards... (waves to Pratchett)
 >
 > I can make a personality for both DDM and ESE Snape's that  
maintains behaviour
 > and speeches in canon, but I don't get anything coherent with OFH  
Snape, will
 > you explain how do you see him?
 >
 > But more particularly, I'd like to express my desbelief that Harry  
will be
 > able to notice the distinction between an OFH Snape and an ESE  
Snape. It will
 > be hard enough for him to make some sort of ammends with DDM  
Snape, but I
 > can't picture him entering in subtle distinctions between evil and
 > oportunist, detatched, egoist... regarding to Snape, of course, I  
don't say
 > he can't allow it in other characters who are not hated by him,  
but in Snape,
 > that figure of all that is bad in this world?
 >


It all depends on the POV, of couse - that's what makes it fun.
Not forgetting that our points of view are filtered through Harry's  
POV in many instances.

Yep, Lucius is OFH - he trims depending on the circumstances and  
climate of opinion and does very nicely as a result, thank you very  
much - until he commits himself too far at the end of OoP. Mind you,  
all is not lost - some of us suspect that he's had lines of  
communication with DD since CoS or before. He'd like to be the  
Talleyrand of the WW - what odds that he won't manage it? A judicious  
switch of allegiance, a cosying up to the right people at just the  
right moment - wouldn't put it past him. Better odds for him than for  
Draco is my bet.

Some of the others, well, might be worth reminding ourselves that  
individuals are driven by more than just an attachment to 'ideals'.  
The personal weighs heavy in the balance and is much closer to home.  
Some people just hate or admire certain other individuals - and that  
can colour the larger picture. Harry and Draco is a glaring example,  
Harry took against Draco on the fairly minor grounds that he was a  
snob and a snot and forever after nothing that Draco did would be  
viewed objectively. He's to blame - even when he isn't. Could well be  
that Sirius and Sevvy started that way too, certainly each had a  
strong antipathy for the other that seems to pre-date any significant  
single event. There's a possibility also that if Sirius hadn't palled  
up with James he'd have been a DE postulate just like his brother.  
Maybe he still was, "to thine own blood be true" however reluctantly  
(Jo does seem keen on linking blood with attitudes).

Others - well, Fudge was out of his depth, with delusions of adequacy  
and trapped by his own vanity - until it all fell apart.

Dear Dolly sees herself serving a higher power, an earthly one that  
she  has totally submitted herself to  - the Ministry  and whatever  
whims emanate therefrom have become her commandments, to be rammed  
through no matter how wrong or how disproportionate the cost. Whether  
she actively supports Voldy is moot given that her aims would hardly  
differ even if he was in charge.

Slughorn - hmm, tricky, not sure what's going on there. Call me after  
I've consulted the runes.

Still, there's plenty of scope for contrary opinions, the more  
devious the better IMO. A couple of months back I threw a Tom Lehrer  
quote into a post, and by changing a word or two it'd be apposite here:

"When correctly viewed,
All can be reproved.
(I could tell you things about Harry P,
And the Puppetmaster - that's evil DD!"

Part of the entertainment is constructing a case for the prosecution
against just about anyone in the series, and I think I'm right in saying
that no character has escaped without having a foul calumny or two
hurled at them at some stage of the proceedings. Splendid! Well done!
One can take enormous satisfaction in belonging to such a suspicious
and contrary bunch of paranoids.

IIRC it all started as a sort of joke - at least that's the way it  
seemed the
last time I prostrated myself before the collected wisdom of the drawers
of conclusions and hewers of reputations to be found in the FP files.  
The
Flying Hedgehog Brigade and the "Ooh! He/she *must* be Ever So Evil!"
Perversely Constructive Interpretation Crew were out to have a bit of
harmless fun. Since then outing ESEs and casting doubts on motives/
mindset has almost become an industry in itself - and there seems to
be a small minority (though not on this site, thankfully) that take some
aspects of it very seriously indeed.

Stereotypical good/bad, black/white characters and reputations are
no fun at all - just think how unsatisfactory Voldy is as a possible
subject for a bun-fight on the boards. He's a reg'lar baddun, no
discussion necessary,  the only possible disagreement is in regard
to his level of incompetancy. Compare and contrast with Tom. He
may well have been a nasty little shit, but probably not irredeemable.
That makes him more interesting, I think you'll agree.

IMO Voldy is the only cut-and-dried cast member who is either evil
*or* good. Harry certainly isn't, not with fragments/aspects of  
Voldyness
swanning round his mind. Throwing Crucio! curses around is not
indicative of a saintly personage - and one can either blame the
inclusions resulting from GH as character modifications (which
nevertheless are part of what makes Harry Harry) or conversely
speculate that he's not a paragon of virtue and truth even if their
effect is ignored - so he's flawed no matter what.

That can lead down some twisty paths. Not long after OoP came out
I threw in the observation that that damn Prophecy suggested that
Harry would be Voldy's equal, not his opposite; Harry could be a
Tom!Clone in more than the Unfortunate-Orphan-Loaded-With-
Magic-Plus-Paired-Wand similarities. Is it likely? Not really. But it
is possible. We've yet to see 'The Hero Tempted By The Dark Side'
or more particularly 'Using Evil Powers In An Attempt To Defeat Evil'
scenario - it never works, we all know that - but does Harry?

Not even DD is beyond reproach. No, we haven't seen him throwing
Unforgiveables about, though there was maybe a strong hint in his
phrasing when reporting his interrogation of Kreacher, and anyway,
how the hell did he defeat Grindelwald? Bury him in platitudes? He  
has the powers, MM points that out in bk 1, chap 1, and there's the  
intruiguing exchange with Voldy at the end of OoP - "We both know  
that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom" is his response  
to Voldy's taunts him about
him being above the brutality of trying to kill. And was DD  
attempting to
ensure that Tom suffered those other ways?

There's a fair argument for the conclusion that DD is not averse to
getting his hands dirty when he deems it necessary, or even when he
finds it convenient. He could have ensured that GH never happened,
he castigates himself for much of the misery in Harry's Muggle period,
but it didn't stop him from forging Weapon!Harry as the key to his  
plan. Nope, he's a pragmatist and that entails doing things you'd  
rather not and if a few eggs get broken while making an omlette,  
tough but so be it. At least, that was probably his original  
thinking; now though, he's witnessing the unpleasant consequences on  
individuals (particularly Harry) of actions made in the general good  
- and it's uncomfortable. Would  he have done things differently if  
he'd known then what he knows now? Probably not. No gloomy  
introspection of "conscience doth make cowards of us all" for him.   
High-minded morality is the preserve of post-facto commentators, it's  
not a luxury that can be afforded by a leader who must win at all  
costs, because there will be no second chance.

Then there's ole Snapey. Deary me, the words, pages, reams, nay -  
damn near libraries, that have been written about that character.  
It's awe-inspiring. And the disagreements and divisions remain as  
definite as ever. Is it us or was it intended that way? A secondary  
character that escaped the authors control, perhaps? Like Topsy, he  
just growed? IMO he's the only continuing character that has become  
more complex as  the series has progressed and is the main reason why  
I'll be in the queue on day 1 of the release of bk 7. I must find out  
the whys and wherefores of that man.

Ascribing what many of us perceive as the character shadings, the  
dualities, the contradictions and apparent complexities to authorial  
intent may be a mistake; it could just  as easily be fan perversity.  
Certainly herself expressed shock!horror at the number of Snape fans,  
Draco fans, Lucius fans.  It was not intended to  be that way yet   
somehow the readers (especially outside the younger age group) have  
interpreted the textual descriptions to reach their favoured  
conclusions. So for the time being what was probably intended has  
been overlooked or discarded in order to add a little extra for any  
particular reader. To take the simple and complicate it to make it  
even more interesting is what many do while they can.

Some love the idea of spiritual influences despite no evidence of any  
form of  coherent belief systems in the books. 'Karmic rebound'  is a  
phrase that turned up today, for example. 'Hoist by his own petard'  
is the everyday equivalent and since irony (given the author) has a  
higher probability than cod oriental mysticism, it'd hardly be a  
surprise to find it edging onto the page. Though equally it's hardly  
surprising that those interested in/attracted to mystic matters  
should be fans of fantasy; one feeds the other, I should think.  
Still, once again the reader interprets it in the way that suits them  
- and no one else. It's another form of theorising, really. Everybody  
has a chance to get in on  the act, and many do, either blatantly or  
subtly. We take what we want and stuff the rest under the mattress,  
telling everyone that that other bit is hardly worth bothering with.  
Meanwhile we wet the stone preparatory to grinding our own axes.

For example, fatty Vern is Jo's least favourite character. No matter  
that he's a joke figure she doesn't like him. He's a bully. He's  
nasty, does nasty things to Harry. Boo! But think - which does Vern  
hate more - Harry or magic? Hating the former is naughty, hating the  
latter would be totally justified, given the family history.

Punishments came when Harry showed his magical abilities - accidental  
or not, or asked about his magical parents. Not saying that Privet  
Drive would have been a bed of roses if Harry were normal, but life  
would have been a lot more pleasant than it has been throughout the  
books. Vern's dearest wish was to "knock that nonsense out of him" -  
he wanted Harry to be normal,  because he's afraid, he fears magic.  
It's unnatural and it kills. Gradually Harry  has become the  
personification of magic, growing more powerful every year. Worse,  
other wizards have made explicit threats. No wonder Vern's worried.  
Probably have a breakdown before the end. Poor Vern. And who'll be to  
blame? Young Potter and his geriatric sidekick, that's who.

Doubt whether herself would have much truck with such reasoning,  
"deserves everything he gets" might be closer to the mark, but well,  
I'm an old softy and can find sympathy for the most unlikely of  
characters. Besides, there's a chance it might reduce a reader or two  
to foaming-at-the-mouth outrage.

No matter. It's all  part of a larger whole - what the author  
intended has been overtaken by what readers want; many're busy  
drawing (what are to them) satisfactory conclusions about  
personalities and motives long before the actual conclusion of the  
story. The genie is out of the bottle, has been for a while, and  
though Jo may have attempted to enforce a measure of control through  
her website and via interviews, indeed did so to a certain extent,  
there still seems to be a hard core of fans who will persist in  
heretical thinking - "Wouldn't it be really interesting and more fun  
if it went this way?"
They could be right.

Kneasy





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 20:51:56 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 20:51:56 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <32E600BB-B9C3-4C52-A807-6E1ACC9DBDD4@...>
Message-ID: <dnq0lc+4bkh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> Ascribing what many of us perceive as the character shadings, the  
> dualities, the contradictions and apparent complexities to authorial  
> intent may be a mistake; it could just  as easily be fan perversity.  
> Certainly herself expressed shock!horror at the number of Snape fans,  
> Draco fans, Lucius fans.  It was not intended to  be that way yet   
> somehow the readers (especially outside the younger age group) have  
> interpreted the textual descriptions to reach their favoured  
> conclusions. So for the time being what was probably intended has  
> been overlooked or discarded in order to add a little extra for any  
> particular reader. To take the simple and complicate it to make it  
> even more interesting is what many do while they can.
> 

Pippin:
But it's specifically to the younger age group that she addressed her
shock and horror -- take it from me girls, you can't save 'em, or
words to that effect. To those of us who aren't hoping to save anybody
but would like to indulge some rather less lofty impulses (and figure 
Snape, Draco or Lucius might  have more to offer than the heroes
since  they wouldn't be trying to save *us*) ...well, doesn't she just 
dare us to try to explain *that* in front of the kiddies. If you want to 
engender a fair amount of silence, try asking "Why do you like Snape?" 
face to face in mixed company.  Doesn't mean she doesn't understand
it. I think she understands it quite well.

Besides which, if Snape is the patsy,  herself as mystery author owes it
to the readership not to give him away -- until the end of Book 7.

Pippin







From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 21:10:20 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:10:20 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
References: <32E600BB-B9C3-4C52-A807-6E1ACC9DBDD4@...>
Message-ID: <000801c600f2$caf494f0$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

Kneasy:
> Some of the others, well, might be worth reminding ourselves that  
> individuals are driven by more than just an attachment to 'ideals'.  
> The personal weighs heavy in the balance and is much closer to home. 

SSSusan:
Now, I know this isn't where you were going with this particular comment, but I'm takin' it and runnin' with it.  

I agree with this, and welcome someone else making the remark besides moi.  I'm a DDM!Snaper myself, and every time I present the possibility that Snape could be DDM! *by virtue of loyalty or attachment to DD,* as opposed to by virtue of a wholehearted belief in DD's ideals, I seem to be greeted with a great deal of incredulity from the OFH!Snapers.

I'm not suggesting that OFH!Snape is impossible, nor that ESE!Snape is impossible -- not at all.  But for now my read of HBP (and of canon) simply leaves me with a comfortable belief in the real possibility of DDM!Snape.  I doubt very much whether Severus Snape buys into Love-with-a-capital-L or into forgiveness and second chances, at least nowhere to the degree that DD does.  Still, he has been the beneficiary of those ideals, and some appreciation for them might have sunk in a tiny bit.  And even if they didn't sink in much... even if he doesn't give a rat's ass about the "ideals" of The Order... I still feel that it's possible that Snape has remained & will remain loyal to Dumbledore The Man.  I don't find it so hard to believe.  

Snape might well want Voldy killed off for his own *very* personal reasons (something I believe you ascribe to, Kneasy, though I'm guessing you'd place yourself most closely by the OFH!Snapers?), but that doesn't mean that he might can't be DDM! and not OFH!

To bring it back to more of the points *you* were trying to raise, Kneasy:

> There's a fair argument for the conclusion that DD is not averse to
> getting his hands dirty when he deems it necessary, or even when he
> finds it convenient. He could have ensured that GH never happened,
> he castigates himself for much of the misery in Harry's Muggle period,
> but it didn't stop him from forging Weapon!Harry as the key to his  
> plan. Nope, he's a pragmatist and that entails doing things you'd  
> rather not and if a few eggs get broken while making an omlette,  
> tough but so be it. 
<snip>
> High-minded morality is the preserve of post-facto commentators, it's  
> not a luxury that can be afforded by a leader who must win at all  
> costs, because there will be no second chance.

SSSusan:
Heh heh.  I suggest putting this out on TOL and seeing what happens.  Talk about people Taking Things Seriously.  I'm sick to death of the discussions of who's a child abuser and who's not, what constitutes abuse, how culpable was DD in Harry's abuse, and all of that.  I prefer the straightforward statement that "he's a pragmatist... it didn't stop him from forging Weapon!Harry" and the final statement of yours I quoted.  It's the truth, and it's the way it is, and I wish there'd stop being so much *judgment* of it Over There.

Whew.  Got *that* off my chest. :-)


Kneasy:
<snip discussion of Uncle Vernon's fairly understandable dislike & fear of magic vs. Jo's dislike of Uncle Vernon>
> Doubt whether herself would have much truck with such reasoning,  
> "deserves everything he gets" might be closer to the mark, but well,  
> I'm an old softy and can find sympathy for the most unlikely of  
> characters. 

SSSusan:
Snort!

Siriusly Snapey Susan, feeling better for having vented! 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 14 23:09:27 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:09:27 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <000801c600f2$caf494f0$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
Message-ID: <dnq8n7+ednr@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "susiequsie23" <susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> 
> I agree with this, and welcome someone else making the remark besides moi.  I'm a 
DDM!Snaper myself, and every time I present the possibility that Snape could be DDM! *by 
virtue of loyalty or attachment to DD,* as opposed to by virtue of a wholehearted belief in 
DD's ideals, I seem to be greeted with a great deal of incredulity from the OFH!Snapers.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that OFH!Snape is impossible, nor that ESE!Snape is impossible -- 
not at all.  But for now my read of HBP (and of canon) simply leaves me with a comfortable 
belief in the real possibility of DDM!Snape.  I doubt very much whether Severus Snape buys 
into Love-with-a-capital-L or into forgiveness and second chances, at least nowhere to 
the degree that DD does.  Still, he has been the beneficiary of those ideals, and some 
appreciation for them might have sunk in a tiny bit.  And even if they didn't sink in much... 
even if he doesn't give a rat's ass about the "ideals" of The Order... I still feel that it's 
possible that Snape has remained & will remain loyal to Dumbledore The Man.  I don't find 
it so hard to believe.  
>


Sure. I'm surprised that others find it less than convincing.
Snape has never shown any particular inclination towards abstract ideology 
so far as I can see, but he does react strongly to individuals, their powers,
faults and the influences they may have. Someone else has said that the 
books are all about individuals and I couldn't agree more. All this guff about
good and evil is just a socially acceptable cloak for personal motivations.
After all, who is good and who is bad? Wasn't that one of the points raised
in my last post?

Voldy he fears, he knows what Voldy can and will do to him, Snape, if ever he
gets him in his clutches. This has more immediacy than any discussion of
the rights of wizards and the need to oppose him on general principles.
Snape reacts to Voldy as to an individual, not as to a socio-political force. 
And the reverse is true too, of course.

Similarly, Sevvy reacted to DD as an individual who affected Snape on
a personal level, not as the leader of the underground opposition. It's
a fair bet that DD helped, even saved Snape *in spite of what he'd done*
in the past rather than because of what he could do in the future. An 
understanding between individuals rather than an alliance between 
like-minded opponents of Voldy. Snape respects DD - and I doubt
he gives his respect lightly.

Harry he doesn't respect at all, nor does he like him - but that's of
no consequence. It might upset Harry that there's someone around who
is totally unimpressed by his almost mythic aura, but Sevvy is probably
only interested in Harry to the extent of DD's plan - and yes, I think he's
a good idea of what it's all about, probably the only one besides DD that
does. 

 
> 
> Snape might well want Voldy killed off for his own *very* personal reasons (something I 
believe you ascribe to, Kneasy, though I'm guessing you'd place yourself most closely by 
the OFH!Snapers?), but that doesn't mean that he might can't be DDM! and not OFH!
> 

Oh, yes.
For me this is the main argument against OFH!Snape.
Snape wants only one thing, Voldy's teeth chattering in the dust as his
decapitated cadaver bleeds out into a ditch. Then Snape'll jump up and
down on it - lots and lotsa times. Snape reeks of a man seeking revenge,
he has no other ambitions, no other motives - not now that Sirius is dead.
And to secure that revenge he'll play any part that may be necessary.
Some may see this as an OFH type motivation. Not really. Snape doesn't
expect to profit in any way; indeed he'd probably sacrifice his own life
if it ensured Voldy's demise  - and it probably will turn out that way.
Betcha. 


> 
> SSSusan:
> Heh heh.  I suggest putting this out on TOL and seeing what happens.  Talk about 
people Taking Things Seriously.  I'm sick to death of the discussions of who's a child 
abuser and who's not, what constitutes abuse, how culpable was DD in Harry's abuse, and 
all of that.  I prefer the straightforward statement that "he's a pragmatist... it didn't stop 
him from forging Weapon!Harry" and the final statement of yours I quoted.  It's the truth, 
and it's the way it is, and I wish there'd stop being so much *judgment* of it Over There.
> 

Feel free to transfer any bits you wish - I'll not post over there as a matter
of principle, but I've no objection to being quoted. And with luck it could 
upset one or two of the more precious variety of poster.


In another post pippin asks how I'd defend Snape, why I like him, or something
of that order.

That's easy.
Assuming that I've read his motivations correctly, then I'd quite probably
wish to behave in exactly the same way under similar circumstances. 
I approve of what I think he's doing. So what's not to like?

Kneasy






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 00:06:47 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 00:06:47 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnpomq+pn68@...>
Message-ID: <dnqc2n+q0gp@...>

Nora:
> And Pippin, I still want to know if you'd then agree that Snape got 
> what he 'deserved' for snooping around, quite possibly with force (or 
> at least covert magic). :)

Pippin:
Yes, that is the trouble with the whole karma bit. Does anything unjust
happen in the Potterverse, or does it all trace back to original sin? I
think the point is that we can't know, even though we, unlike the
characters, know for certain that nothing in the Potterverse "just
happens."  

Nor are we clear about what the characters themselves believe
about fate, except that Dumbledore believes that free will and love
are stronger. But of course he's very progressive for a wizard. It
wasn't until the great Lisbon earthquake of 1755 that the idea that
God ordains natural disasters to punish whole communities for 
their sins really went out of fashion in the West, and that was after
the wizards' retreat from Muggle society.

For us and for the characters, it's easy to ascribe the misfortunes of 
people we don't like to cosmic justice, thus excusing our own schadenfreude. 
I don't see Snape as totally innocent any more than Morfin Gaunt. But whatever 
teenage!Snape was, AFAWK he didn't deserve to be murdered. 

I think even Sirius comes around to that point of view eventually. In OOP, 
he says that he's not proud of the way he and his friends treated Snape, 
and it's underlined with a sharp look from Lupin. 

Snape's life was treated cavalierly, and he became
a person who was careless with the lives of others. Now, I think, he no
longer is, though when confronted with the people who once  held his life so 
cheaply, and whom he thinks are Death Eaters who still have no concept that
human life is valuable, he can't resist taking the mickey out of them a little. 
Still, he doesn't turn Sirius over to the Dementors or leave him unguarded
at the mercy of whatever dangers prowl the grounds at night, including
the werewolf he knows is out there. 

My reading of Rowling is that human life and human souls are too
precious to be damaged deliberately, except in defense of the lives
and souls of the innocent -- and sometimes they must be sacrificed
for this purpose.

 I think Snape has come to this point of view, at least as far as 
thinking that *his* life and soul ought to be protected, and
accepting that Dumbledore's price for that is that  Snape protect the
lives and souls of others, risking his own if need be. But Snape is 
too invested in his own sense of injury to have much feeling for others, so he is
at the mercy of the rules as far as determining what is damaging. If the 
rules allow him to be cruel in the course of his duties, he will be. 

That's how I see it, anyway. If it were proved to him that Harry cared about
justice for Snape, say by solving the attempted murder,  then perhaps 
Snape's old wounds might heal.

Pippin






From severelysigune at severelysigune.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 14:51:08 2005
From: severelysigune at severelysigune.yahoo.invalid (severelysigune)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:51:08 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnq8n7+ednr@...>
Message-ID: <dnrvss+pefk@...>

SSSusan wrote:

> > I agree with this, and welcome someone else making the remark 
besides moi.  I'm a DDM!Snaper myself, and every time I present the 
possibility that Snape could be DDM! *by virtue of loyalty or 
attachment to DD,* as opposed to by virtue of a wholehearted belief 
in DD's ideals, I seem to be greeted with a great deal of incredulity 
from the OFH!Snapers. < <


To which Kneasy wrote:

> Sure. I'm surprised that others find it less than convincing.
Snape has never shown any particular inclination towards abstract 
ideology so far as I can see, but he does react strongly to 
individuals, their powers, faults and the influences they may have. 
Someone else has said that the books are all about individuals and I 
couldn't agree more. All this guff about good and evil is just a 
socially acceptable cloak for personal motivations.

<snip>

Snape respects DD - and I doubt he gives his respect lightly.

Harry he doesn't respect at all, nor does he like him - but that's of
no consequence. 

<snip>

Snape wants only one thing, Voldy's teeth chattering in the dust as 
his decapitated cadaver bleeds out into a ditch. Then Snape'll jump 
up and down on it - lots and lotsa times. Snape reeks of a man 
seeking revenge, he has no other ambitions, no other motives - not 
now that Sirius is dead. And to secure that revenge he'll play any 
part that may be necessary.
Some may see this as an OFH type motivation. Not really. Snape doesn't
expect to profit in any way; indeed he'd probably sacrifice his own 
life if it ensured Voldy's demise  - and it probably will turn out 
that way.
Betcha. <


Sigune pipes up:

I'm not sure I have that much to add to this, but I did want to say 
that I wholeheartedly agree. I think it would be hard to explain why 
Snape remained at Hogwarts once Voldemort was out of the picture, if 
he had only turned to Dumbledore to save his butt. The Order members 
certainly got on with their lives, and did not need to reside at 
Hogwarts in order to be stand-by.

There is a kind of attachment between Dumbledore and Snape, or he 
would not take Dumbledore's actions quite so personally (PoA -
paraphrasing: "Surely you have not forgotten that he once tried to 
kill *me*?"). The fact that so proud and vain a man as Snape appears 
in canon allows himself to be ordered around by Dumbledore (and 
without such compelling arguments as the Cruciatus Curse) is telling 
enough for me. I have always interpreted the two of them as a Master 
and his Disciple - that is the impression I got from canon. 
Dumbledore relies so heavily on him that he must have some kind of 
special status.

The thing that keeps puzzling me is that Snape, who still bears 
schoolboy grudges at the age of nearly forty, must at some point have 
found it in himself to get over the fact that Dumbledore did not act 
seriously against the Marauders and even swore him to secrecy about 
the presence of a werewolf at Hogwarts. I'd like to know what made 
him do that, in view of his super-sensitivity to anything that 
relates to himself.

In an earlier post, Kneasy remarked on the fact that Dumbledore is a 
pragmatist. I am quite convinced that pragmatism is one of the 
reasons why he keeps/kept Snape close. Snape is prepared to do 
*anything* in order to achieve his goal of bringing Voldemort down, 
even things any other person would shudder at. The longer I think 
about it, the more sense Dumbledore's death makes; and I don't think 
anyone else could have managed the kill.

:grins:
Yes, this is what they call a slightly glorified 'me too' post :D...

Yours not so severly,
Sigune







From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 16:12:10 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:12:10 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnrvss+pefk@...>
Message-ID: <dns4kq+g2uc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" 
<severelysigune at y...> wrote:

> Sigune pipes up:
> 
> I'm not sure I have that much to add to this, but I did want to say 
> that I wholeheartedly agree. I think it would be hard to explain 
> why Snape remained at Hogwarts once Voldemort was out of the 
> picture, if he had only turned to Dumbledore to save his butt. The 
> Order members certainly got on with their lives, and did not need 
> to reside at Hogwarts in order to be stand-by.

See, I actually think it's become a little easier post-HBP.  When we 
had visions of Snape the pureblood living at Snape Manor, keeping the 
teaching job doesn't make much sense.  But Snape's probably not well-
off (guessing by the house), he probably doesn't have powerful family 
connections to fall back on (although the number of Prince!Sues out 
there has been what you'd expect, in the scary wide world of fic), 
and although we don't have too much information about the status or 
pay of Hogwarts teachers, I'd say it's not a stretch to call it a 
pretty good job.

So Snape is in a position where he can still see what things are 
going on, and it's a reasonably comfortable position.  Sure, he has 
to behave in some ways, but as Pippin pointed out, he's also free to 
indulge his cruelty when the rules will let him.  And Dumbledore puts 
up with his foibles where other people might not.

If you postulate a Snape who is more interested and engaged in the 
course of events than disinterested (the whole Ice King "I just want 
my books and a potions lab" idea), staying at Hogwarts has a good 
number of benefits.  And some demerits.

-Nora would still love to see Snape try to run something like a 
graduate seminar, where students can draw blood just as well






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 17:23:41 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:23:41 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dns4kq+g2uc@...>
Message-ID: <dns8qt+9itn@...>

> > Sigune pipes up:
> > 
> > I'm not sure I have that much to add to this, but I did want to say 
> > that I wholeheartedly agree. I think it would be hard to explain 
> > why Snape remained at Hogwarts once Voldemort was out of the 
> > picture, if he had only turned to Dumbledore to save his butt. The 
> > Order members certainly got on with their lives, and did not need 
> > to reside at Hogwarts in order to be stand-by.

Nora: 
> See, I actually think it's become a little easier post-HBP.  When we 
> had visions of Snape the pureblood living at Snape Manor, keeping the 
> teaching job doesn't make much sense.  But Snape's probably not well-
> off (guessing by the house), he probably doesn't have powerful family 
> connections to fall back on (although the number of Prince!Sues out 
> there has been what you'd expect, in the scary wide world of fic), 
> and although we don't have too much information about the status or 
> pay of Hogwarts teachers, I'd say it's not a stretch to call it a 
> pretty good job.
> 
> So Snape is in a position where he can still see what things are 
> going on, and it's a reasonably comfortable position.  Sure, he has 
> to behave in some ways, but as Pippin pointed out, he's also free to 
> indulge his cruelty when the rules will let him.  And Dumbledore puts 
> up with his foibles where other people might not.

Pippin:
Nice try. But Snape was nicely connected to Lucius,   and the ministry 
has plenty of room for sadists like dear old Dolores on the staff.

Are you saying Lucius couldn't have gotten his old pal Snapey a
ministry job? And what about Slughorn? It's not clear whether 
Snape was in the Slug club, but he was at Sluggy's Christmas
party, so I'd guess yes, in which case Snape could get a job
anywhere within the reach of Sluggy's web.

Then there's Karkaroff...I don't think Snape would have had
trouble finding employment elsewhere.


> -Nora would still love to see Snape try to run something like a 
> graduate seminar, where students can draw blood just as well
>

Pippin:
We saw Snape dealing with Lockhart in the staff room. He can
play with the big boys just fine.

Pippin






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 18:25:41 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:25:41 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dns8qt+9itn@...>
Message-ID: <dnscf5+b1om@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
> Nice try. But Snape was nicely connected to Lucius,   and the 
> ministry has plenty of room for sadists like dear old Dolores on 
> the staff.
> 
> Are you saying Lucius couldn't have gotten his old pal Snapey a
> ministry job? And what about Slughorn? It's not clear whether 
> Snape was in the Slug club, but he was at Sluggy's Christmas
> party, so I'd guess yes, in which case Snape could get a job
> anywhere within the reach of Sluggy's web.
> 
> Then there's Karkaroff...I don't think Snape would have had
> trouble finding employment elsewhere.

Trouble--maybe not.  But maybe Snape doesn't want to call in favors 
and get himself entangled in *those* sorts of connections.  As we've 
seen, taking a job at the Ministry can involve all kinds of 
entanglements and power plays.  Not saying that staying at Hogwarts 
isn't an entanglement with Dumbledore, but maybe the known situation 
is preferred to the unknown.  There are all kinds of ways in which 
*Snape* profits from having Dumbledore as his immediate patron, as 
opposed to Barty Crouch.

>> -Nora would still love to see Snape try to run something like a 
>> graduate seminar, where students can draw blood just as well
> 
> Pippin:
> We saw Snape dealing with Lockhart in the staff room. He can
> play with the big boys just fine.

You're far more charitable than I would be in considering Lockhart to 
be one of the "big boys".  No, I was thinking of a situation where 
students are freer to fight back and the core of the class is actual 
discussion and argument where positions have to be defended as to 
equals, as opposed to getting to be the dictator and reveling in 
bullying inferior students.

-Nora has fond memories of one seminar for that very reason...






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 20:03:58 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:03:58 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnscf5+b1om@...>
Message-ID: <dnsi7e+5uro@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
> 
> You're far more charitable than I would be in considering Lockhart to 
> be one of the "big boys".  No, I was thinking of a situation where 
> students are freer to fight back and the core of the class is actual 
> discussion and argument where positions have to be defended as to 
> equals, as opposed to getting to be the dictator and reveling in 
> bullying inferior students.
> 

Wouldn't work, I think.
Free-for-all discussion, expressing contrary views and the like only
surfaces in subjects that are, well subjective. Where analyses, opinions,
conclusions are open to personally derived interpretations. Potions 
doesn't fall into that category - it's fact-based, like physics or chemistry. 
Any student who knew enough to dispute with the lecturer shouldn't be 
in the class anyway.

I'd agree that Lockhart is a lightweight, but consider - Snape, without 
too much effort simultaneously squelches Harry and Sirius at GP.
No, I don't think bumptious students would get much change out
of an old hand like Sevvy. 

Kneasy







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 20:03:44 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:03:44 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnscf5+b1om@...>
Message-ID: <dnsi70+82cp@...>

Nora:
> Trouble--maybe not.  But maybe Snape doesn't want to call in favors 
> and get himself entangled in *those* sorts of connections.  As we've 
> seen, taking a job at the Ministry can involve all kinds of 
> entanglements and power plays.  Not saying that staying at Hogwarts 
> isn't an entanglement with Dumbledore, but maybe the known situation 
> is preferred to the unknown.  There are all kinds of ways in which 
> *Snape* profits from having Dumbledore as his immediate patron, as 
> opposed to Barty Crouch.

Pippin:
You know, it sounds like you're saying Snape preferred to work for
Dumbledore because he was the more ethical employer. No argument there.
:-)

Nora:
> You're far more charitable than I would be in considering Lockhart to 
> be one of the "big boys".  No, I was thinking of a situation where 
> students are freer to fight back and the core of the class is actual 
> discussion and argument where positions have to be defended as to 
> equals, as opposed to getting to be the dictator and reveling in 
> bullying inferior students.

Pippin:
Snape vs a room full of Hermiones? That would be fun! But the most
we're likely to get is an as-equals encounter in HP7.

Pippin








From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 20:27:36 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:27:36 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnsi7e+5uro@...>
Message-ID: <dnsjjo+of0o@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> Wouldn't work, I think.
> Free-for-all discussion, expressing contrary views and the like only
> surfaces in subjects that are, well subjective. Where analyses, 
> opinions, conclusions are open to personally derived 
> interpretations. Potions doesn't fall into that category - it's 
> fact-based, like physics or chemistry. Any student who knew enough 
> to dispute with the lecturer shouldn't be in the class anyway.

The idea that there isn't discussion and argument and the like would 
be a strong shock to all of my friends in the sciences, who regularly 
have rousing arguments about topic both there and at the dinner table.

> I'd agree that Lockhart is a lightweight, but consider - Snape, 
> without too much effort simultaneously squelches Harry and Sirius 
> at GP.  No, I don't think bumptious students would get much change 
> out of an old hand like Sevvy. 

I was thinking about what might happen in situations where shouting 
and the appeal to emotions and authority wouldn't get anywhere--a 
little like a moderated debate with a moderator who's actually doing 
his job.  (I like Jim Lehrer as one, meself.)  Not quite the same 
thing as an insult-filled argument in the kitchen.  Le yawn.

-Nora wonders where the sun went so early in the afternoon...






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 20:31:12 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:31:12 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnsi70+82cp@...>
Message-ID: <dnsjqg+qiti@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
> You know, it sounds like you're saying Snape preferred to work for
> Dumbledore because he was the more ethical employer. No argument 
> there.  :-)

That's one possible reading.  But, as you've mentioned, it's also the 
case that Dumbledore being the more ethical employer has direct 
benefits for Snape himself: he gets his sense of self-worth 
validated, while still getting to engage in some limited trampling 
and cruelty upon others.

This is operative whether Snape is DDM, OFH, or ESE: there's enough 
benefit in it to apply for all of them.

> Pippin:
> Snape vs a room full of Hermiones? That would be fun! But the most
> we're likely to get is an as-equals encounter in HP7.

I do hope we get some kind of encounter, and I can predict it taking 
any number of forms--which is to say, I make no predictions.  I 
suspect the option that is least attractive to your POV involves the 
same kind of meltdown as near the end of PoA, but then again, that 
wasn't *really* a meltdown, he was just acting, right?  :)

-Nora sits tongue firmly in cheek







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 20:54:11 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:54:11 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnsjjo+of0o@...>
Message-ID: <dnsl5j+7iq1@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
> 
> The idea that there isn't discussion and argument and the like would 
> be a strong shock to all of my friends in the sciences, who regularly 
> have rousing arguments about topic both there and at the dinner table.
> 

With the professor? Or were they disseminating their own ignorance?
There's a difference.

I once disputed with a biochemistry lecturer - got banned from the class
for 3 months. It makes passing that exam very tough indeed. Text books
never seem to cover the apparently minor but in reality very critical details.

> 
> I was thinking about what might happen in situations where shouting 
> and the appeal to emotions and authority wouldn't get anywhere--a 
> little like a moderated debate with a moderator who's actually doing 
> his job.  (I like Jim Lehrer as one, meself.)  Not quite the same 
> thing as an insult-filled argument in the kitchen.  Le yawn.
> 

Authority? In GP? It was Sirius that was claiming that he had authority,
much good that it did him, or are you speaking more generally?
You don't have moderators in fact-based lectures. You have a pen, paper
and hopefully fully-functional hearing. You assimilate, hoping that
knowledge absorption is akin to osmosis - immerse yourself deeply 
enough and some will percolate through no matter what. (Oddly enough
it was a disagreement about osmotic pressures in ionic solutions that
got me thrown out of that class.)

Kneasy








From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 15 21:03:44 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:03:44 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnsl5j+7iq1@...>
Message-ID: <dnslng+t8la@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> With the professor? Or were they disseminating their own ignorance?
> There's a difference.

Yes, they have rousing arguments with the professor over subjects.  
Sometimes even people in the sciences *gasp* disagree and work the 
issues out.  They're typically decent at being diplomatic about it, 
too.

And it's not that different of a situation from something like the 
sonata theory seminar, where things turned into student seek-and-
destroy on any weak arguments anyone (the professor most of all) 
threw out.  It's not 'just' subjective, but going into why is 
probably more of a pain in the ass than anyone here wants.
 
> I once disputed with a biochemistry lecturer - got banned from the 
> class for 3 months. It makes passing that exam very tough indeed. 
> Text books never seem to cover the apparently minor but in reality 
> very critical details.

Maybe I should have made it clear that I was thinking of classes in 
the seminar level and style, not the lecture and regurgitate format.

> Authority? In GP? It was Sirius that was claiming that he had 
> authority, much good that it did him, or are you speaking more 
> generally?

More generally.  In the classroom Snape gets to wield the whole "I am 
teacher, so shut up and sit down" factor, even when a student is 
trying to inform him of the objective situation in the class.  No, 
Sirius' "This is my house" isn't impressive, either.  They're both 
being idiots in that scene.

-Nora has always wondered what Snape and Dumbledore's more private 
conversations were like, and whether JKR has actually written out the 
entire text of what Hagrid overheard.  Maybe Snape was finally 
getting a little stroppy?






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 10:01:56 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:01:56 -0000
Subject: Snape and seminars
In-Reply-To: <dns4kq+g2uc@...>
Message-ID: <dnu3ak+78dk@...>

> -Nora would still love to see Snape try to run something like a 
> graduate seminar, where students can draw blood just as well

I would love to see that, too.  I do think, though, that such a scene 
will remain very firmly in the realm of fanfic (and it's nice to see 
Nora jumping away from canon into this wild unfettered speculation ;-
) ).  I imagine his debate with Narcissa and Bella is the nearest we 
will get in canon.

I think he would hold his own very well.  I also agree that there is a 
place for this sort of activity in Potions: think of the Euphoric 
solution (or whatever it was) that Harry made, and Slughorn's comment 
that the ingredients Harry added would counter some of the bad side-
effects.

You could imagine a seminar on, say, Polyjuice, and how you might make 
it last longer, or mitigate the effects of using animal parts by 
mistake.

David






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 11:43:04 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:43:04 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnrvss+pefk@...>
Message-ID: <dnu988+5kl5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" <severelysigune at y...> wrote:
>
> The thing that keeps puzzling me is that Snape, who still bears 
> schoolboy grudges at the age of nearly forty, must at some point have 
> found it in himself to get over the fact that Dumbledore did not act 
> seriously against the Marauders and even swore him to secrecy about 
> the presence of a werewolf at Hogwarts. I'd like to know what made 
> him do that, in view of his super-sensitivity to anything that 
> relates to himself.
> 

Yes, a lot of fans have tried to get to grips with Shrieking Shack Part 1.
Snape's phrasing is very interesting, reminding DD that a deliberate 
attempt was made on his life, i.e. murder - and DD does not dispute
this. In fact his response is merely that "My memory is as good as it 
ever was, Severus."

This could have multiples of meaning:
a) No, I haven't forgotten that they did try to kill you,
b) No, I haven't forgotten that you believe they tried to kill you,
or, and this one is a bit twistier
c) No, I haven't forgotten what happened, nor that there was no
punishment meted out, nor that you agreed not to stir up
trouble, nor that I owe you big time because of it.  

Any 'pact' between DD and Sevvy could have its origins with this incident.
It's clear that Sevvy is a prideful and vengeful man, he's nursed this
grudge - verging on vendetta - against James and Sirius for years.
But he doesn't include DD. That's an anomaly, given his character.
If Snape had chosen to kick up a stink, DD may well have lost his job,
the Marauders expelled and Sevvy feted for exposing a major scandal.
There was no potion to alleviate the effects of lycanthropy available
at that time and parents of pupils would have gone bananas at the 
danger posed to their little darlings of a werewolf strolling round Hogwarts.
 
Threats to Student!Snape would be facile compared to the damage he 
could cause by just opening his mouth. The fact that he continued to 
keep his mouth shut even as an adult (and a DE!) is even more remarkable.
Somehow, an accommodation has been reached.

Many fans have wondered why DD trusted Snape. To my mind reversing
the question is more intriguing - Why would Snape trust DD?
The information available and past experience would predicate that Snape 
can't and shouldn't. Yet he does.

Another oddity - when Snape 'comes back to us' he goes not to the
Aurors or Barty to strike a deal but to DD and the Order, which numbers 
amongst its membership the two people he hates most. Must be powerful 
motivation for him to do that. Just what links DD and Snape? Whatever it 
started as it's seemingly developed into mutual respect.

I really hope that these lacunae don't stem from poor plot drafting; that
there are 'real' reasons for this unlikely alliance.
Wouldn't that be fun?

Kneasy 






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 14:53:47 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:53:47 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnu988+5kl5@...>
Message-ID: <dnukdr+6gkg@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> Yes, a lot of fans have tried to get to grips with Shrieking Shack Part 1.
> Snape's phrasing is very interesting, reminding DD that a deliberate 
> attempt was made on his life, i.e. murder - and DD does not dispute
> this. In fact his response is merely that "My memory is as good as it 
> ever was, Severus."
> 
> This could have multiples of meaning:
> a) No, I haven't forgotten that they did try to kill you,
> b) No, I haven't forgotten that you believe they tried to kill you,
> or, and this one is a bit twistier
> c) No, I haven't forgotten what happened, nor that there was no
> punishment meted out, nor that you agreed not to stir up
> trouble, nor that I owe you big time because of it.  

Pippin:
d> I haven't forgotten what it seemed you  were capable of
as a young man.  I gave you a second chance just as I
gave one to Sirius before you. You got a problem with that?


Kneasy:
> 
> Any 'pact' between DD and Sevvy could have its origins with this incident.
> It's clear that Sevvy is a prideful and vengeful man, he's nursed this
> grudge - verging on vendetta - against James and Sirius for years.
> But he doesn't include DD. That's an anomaly, given his character.

Pippin:
At the time Severus joined DD, DD was looking for the spy and 
suspected it was Sirius. So no anomaly there. DD and Snape had 
common cause.

Kneasy:
> If Snape had chosen to kick up a stink, DD may well have lost his job,
> the Marauders expelled and Sevvy feted for exposing a major scandal.
> There was no potion to alleviate the effects of lycanthropy available
> at that time and parents of pupils would have gone bananas at the 
> danger posed to their little darlings of a werewolf strolling round Hogwarts.
>  

Pippin:

Presumably the school governors knew about Lupin and had approved. 
It would be far easier for them to deny everything and expel Snape for being
out of bounds, entering a restricted area after dark and making up stories
than to admit that they had agreed to harbor a monster on the grounds.
Snape was a geeky little halfblood weirdo who had about as much chance 
of making himself believed as Luna Lovegood. Dumbledore might not
be above pointing that out. Of course *he* wouldn't want Snape expelled,
but if he lost his place, he wouldn't be in a position to speak up, would
he?

And Snape had a secret of his own...not vampire ancestry but (gasp!)
Muggle. His pureblood pals would drop him like an Ashwinder egg
if that got out, a condition that would still obtain after Hogwarts.

As for the unlikely alliance, Snape, as Nora points out, is smart enough
to recognize the value to him of an ethical employer who appreciates Snape's
independent streak. Voldemort would pretend to be such, but Snape
would realize his true nature before long. And I'm sure remorse did
have something to do with it. Snape might have hoped one day 
to meet James in battle and yet still been horrified at being
party to  assassination, not only of his enemy but his wife and child
as well. The more so if Voldemort had presented himself, as he so
likes to do, as the champion of rights and justice.

Pippin






From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 16:03:08 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:03:08 -0000
Subject: Smite Albus
Message-ID: <dnuofs+7q8a@...>

The Scene:  Voldemort sits by a quiet fire smoking his pipe and 
ponders his next move
..

Smite Albus
(sung to the tune of  White Christmas)

I'm scheming how to smite Albus
Cause I'm a no good so and so
If Malfoy should miss him
Then I'll be listenin'
To hear
Snape deal him the blow.

I'm scheming how to smite Albus
With every evil plan I write
May his days be numbered tonight
And may all those kids of his feel fright

I'm scheming how to smite Albus
He never trusted me you know
Said I was abusive
Somewhat elusive
Made me return things that I stole.

I'm scheming how to smite Albus
With him my plans never work right
May old Dumbledore die tonight
And may all those kids of his feel fright 


Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All magical and muggle rights reserved.








From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 16:27:39 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:27:39 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnukdr+6gkg@...>
Message-ID: <dnuptr+ecrn@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> d> I haven't forgotten what it seemed you  were capable of
> as a young man.  I gave you a second chance just as I
> gave one to Sirius before you. You got a problem with that?
> 
> 

Come, tell us what he was capable of, we're all agog.
Being out after hours is a hanging offence? I really don't think so.

Apart from that - vague assertions by Sirius - with zero proof or evidence.
Mind you, Sirius *might* know - he was brought up in a pure-blood,
supremacist, Dark Magic household. He probably knew more nasty stuff
than Snape; Snape after all was from a family not averse to mixed 
marriages with Muggles. Which boy would be more likely to pick up
evil habits?

> 
> Presumably the school governors knew about Lupin and had approved. 
> It would be far easier for them to deny everything and expel Snape for being
> out of bounds, entering a restricted area after dark and making up stories
> than to admit that they had agreed to harbor a monster on the grounds.
> Snape was a geeky little halfblood weirdo who had about as much chance 
> of making himself believed as Luna Lovegood. Dumbledore might not
> be above pointing that out. Of course *he* wouldn't want Snape expelled,
> but if he lost his place, he wouldn't be in a position to speak up, would
> he?
> 

The Governors almost certainly didn't. 
And Lupin admits that "No other Headmaster would have done so.."
So Snapey was sneaking around and was where he shouldn't have been. 
Yet.. we have an unregistered werewolf, three unregistered animagi,
cavortings around the countryside at full moon and the near-death of a 
student. Would DD involve himself in a cover-up of that lot and place all
the blame on another pupil who just happened to be unpopular? Even
when it was the so-called 'goodies' that had abused his trust?
What a wonderful picture you paint of DD. A lying, hypocritical rat-bag.
Mind you, I've never totally trusted him.

Kneasy






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 17:24:53 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:24:53 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnuptr+ecrn@...>
Message-ID: <dnut95+i8ug@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> 
> > d> I haven't forgotten what it seemed you  were capable of
> > as a young man.  I gave you a second chance just as I
> > gave one to Sirius before you. You got a problem with that?
> > 
> > 
> 
> Come, tell us what he was capable of, we're all agog.
> Being out after hours is a hanging offence? I really don't think so.

Pippin:
Dumbledore was no doubt referring to  Snape's involvement with
the Death Eaters. He accepted that Snape didn't really want to be
involved in murder, just as he had earlier accepted that Sirius hadn't
meant to kill Snape and later will tell Draco that despite three attempts,
he is not truly capable of murder.

Kneasy:
> The Governors almost certainly didn't. 

> And Lupin admits that "No other Headmaster would have done so.."
> So Snapey was sneaking around and was where he shouldn't have been. 
> Yet.. we have an unregistered werewolf, three unregistered animagi,
> cavortings around the countryside at full moon and the near-death of a 
> student. Would DD involve himself in a cover-up of that lot and place all
> the blame on another pupil who just happened to be unpopular? 


Pippin:
Canon? The tunnel is built out to the willow, Madame Pomfrey is
tasked with taking the boy back and forth, the teachers must be told
not to question his periodic absences, and all this happens 
without the governors knowledge? I don't think so. They'll
rubber stamp Dumbledore's decisions as  long as *they* don't
have to take public responsibility if it turns out dry...much like Fudge.

We don't know at what age a werewolf is required to register, or
how easy it is to avoid registering, or how difficult it is to consult
the registry. Anyway, nobody, including Dumbledore, knew about
the unregistered animagi sneaking about the countryside. The
protection of that secret, in my scenario, is in fact Lupin's motive
for murder. But Dumbledore doesn't know Lupin is involved.

As far as the  evidence Dumbledore has is concerned,
Sirius told  Snape how to get into the willow, and Snape of his own
accord followed Lupin, entered the willow which all
students had been warned not to approach, went down a tunnel which
was clearly off limits, left the school grounds, and then encountered 
a monster. Sirius could honestly say that he didn't force or trick
Snape into entering the tunnel and that he didn't know that Snape 
was going to be idiot enough to enter the tunnel when 
transformed!Lupin was there.

A hanging offense? Hardly.

Dumbledore's response to Snape's cry of murder was probably 
similar to his response to Bertha -- "But why did you follow him at
all?"  *I* think Snape was coerced, and it was indeed attempted murder.
But Dumbledore is not to know that. Snape had a known habit of
following the Marauders around. Who, even Dumbledore, would look
deeper, especially if the shock of seeing  the monster wiped most of the
evidence away?

Pippin






From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 17:50:06 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:50:06 -0000
Subject: Smite Albus
In-Reply-To: <dnuofs+7q8a@...>
Message-ID: <dnuuoe+hrc9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <estesrandy at y...> 
wrote:
>
> The Scene:  Voldemort sits by a quiet fire smoking his pipe and 
> ponders his next move
..
> 
> Smite Albus
> (sung to the tune of  White Christmas)
> 
> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> Cause I'm a no good so and so
> If Malfoy should miss him
> Then I'll be listenin'
> To hear
> Snape deal him the blow.
> 
> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> With every evil plan I write
> May his days be numbered tonight
> And may all those kids of his feel fright
> 
> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> He never trusted me you know
> Said I was abusive
> Somewhat elusive
> Made me return things that I stole.
> 
> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> With him my plans never work right
> May old Dumbledore die tonight
> And may all those kids of his feel fright 
> 
> 
> Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All magical and muggle rights 
reserved.


Jen: Good one, Randy. I definitely think Voldemort was more involved 
in the plan to kill Dumbledore than just sending Draco on his merry 
way. Several people were being punished including Snape, who got the 
biggest knife twisting from the looks of it. Just expanding on your 
thoughts a bit, lol. Thanks for the FILK.







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 19:27:36 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:27:36 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnut95+i8ug@...>
Message-ID: <dnv4f9+nino@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
>
> Canon? The tunnel is built out to the willow, Madame Pomfrey is
> tasked with taking the boy back and forth, the teachers must be told
> not to question his periodic absences, and all this happens 
> without the governors knowledge? I don't think so. They'll
> rubber stamp Dumbledore's decisions as  long as *they* don't
> have to take public responsibility if it turns out dry...much like Fudge.
>

The canon can be found in the same place as the proof that they
did know about Lupin - or did you think I hadn't noticed that you
provided no canon either? Tut.

I can't imagine an interferring bunch like the Govenors
a) being in unanimous agreement
b) that one of them wouldn't 'leak', especially if he/she disapproved
c) that they'd never send anyone round to check up. 

> We don't know at what age a werewolf is required to register, or
> how easy it is to avoid registering, or how difficult it is to consult
> the registry. Anyway, nobody, including Dumbledore, knew about
> the unregistered animagi sneaking about the countryside. The
> protection of that secret, in my scenario, is in fact Lupin's motive
> for murder. But Dumbledore doesn't know Lupin is involved.
>

He must be known as a werewolf - "...my parents tried everything, but
in those days there was no cure..." implies seeking help and advice
from any quarter, including St Mungo's. Lupin would be *known*. 
The WW is a hotbed of gossip, innuendo and rumour, yet no tales
followed Lupin to Hogwarts. I find this incredible - except that it
adds oomph to my old idea that Remus Lupin is a nom de chien,
and that he started off as somebody else. Who that might be could 
be worth knowing.

> *I* think Snape was coerced, and it was indeed attempted murder.

That we agree on.

> But Dumbledore is not to know that. Snape had a known habit of
> following the Marauders around. Who, even Dumbledore, would look
> deeper, especially if the shock of seeing  the monster wiped most of the
> evidence away?
> 

Because DD is a Legilimans. (He didn't teach Harry himself because he 
he thought it better to distance himself from Harry, not because he couldn't.
Occlumency and Legilimancy are two sides of the same coin, it's not possible
to teach how to guard the mind properly unless you can also intrude to see 
if attacks are blocked.)
So even if he didn't know the situation before the event, he'd certainly 
ferret it out in the questioning afterwards.

Kneasy







From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 16 22:09:33 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:09:33 -0000
Subject: Smite Albus
In-Reply-To: <dnuofs+7q8a@...>
Message-ID: <dnvdut+110d1@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <estesrandy at y...> wrote:
>
> The Scene:  Voldemort sits by a quiet fire smoking his pipe and 
> ponders his next move
..
> 
> Smite Albus
> (sung to the tune of  White Christmas)
> 
> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> Cause I'm a no good so and so
> If Malfoy should miss him
> Then I'll be listenin'
> To hear
> Snape deal him the blow.
> 
> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> With every evil plan I write
> May his days be numbered tonight
> And may all those kids of his feel fright
> 
> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> He never trusted me you know
> Said I was abusive
> Somewhat elusive
> Made me return things that I stole.
> 
> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> With him my plans never work right
> May old Dumbledore die tonight
> And may all those kids of his feel fright 
> 
> 
> Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All magical and muggle rights 
reserved.
>
Since it is the 40th aniversary of the Sound of Music.....how about a 
filk sung to tune of How Do You Sove a Problem Like Maria.  Change 
Maria to Voldie. 
How do you solve a problem like Voldie
How do you kill man who's soul has split....

That's about all I can come up with.

Regards,
Fran







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 01:39:03 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 01:39:03 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnv4f9+nino@...>
Message-ID: <dnvq7n+a1ps@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> The canon can be found in the same place as the proof that they
> did know about Lupin - or did you think I hadn't noticed that you
> provided no canon either? Tut.
 
> I can't imagine an interferring bunch like the Govenors
> a) being in unanimous agreement
> b) that one of them wouldn't 'leak', especially if he/she disapproved
> c) that they'd never send anyone round to check up. 


Pippin:
The BoG, the staff and the Ministry know about Slytherin's little pet, the
parents, the kiddies and the Daily Prophet remain clueless. Myrtle's death
is hushed up, the kids don't know why Hagrid was expelled and the
same situation seems to obtain when the serpent returns. We're dealing
with a people schooled in secrecy from childhood, after all.

The staff and the Ministry know about Lupin's return (and one would 
assume there's overlap between the Ministry and the Board). Again the 
kiddies, parents and Prophet are out of the loop, Malfoy having 
conveniently resigned prior to Lupin's return. I suspect  most board members
are too old to have kids in school. It is somewhat tutworthy canon, as there
could be a different setup for Lupin's initial sojourn chez Hogwarts, 
but it would seem sloppy and a waste of all that exposition.

Kneasy:
> He must be known as a werewolf - "...my parents tried everything, but
> in those days there was no cure..." implies seeking help and advice
> from any quarter, including St Mungo's.

Pippin:
I'm not so sure. In the old days, people would keep certain diseases
hushed up; mental illness, STDs, cancer. The parents would already
know that Mungo's can't cure lycanthropy, so why go there?
They kept it quiet, like the Dursleys with Dudley's pig tail.
 I suspect they moved a lot, one step ahead of the landlords and
the mob with the  pitchforks, and spent what ever they had on 
quack cures. 

Pippin:
> 
> > But Dumbledore is not to know that. Snape had a known habit of
> > following the Marauders around. Who, even Dumbledore, would look
> > deeper, especially if the shock of seeing  the monster wiped most of the
> > evidence away?
> > 

Kneasy:
> Because DD is a Legilimans. (He didn't teach Harry himself because he 
> he thought it better to distance himself from Harry, not because he couldn't.
> Occlumency and Legilimancy are two sides of the same coin, it's not possible
> to teach how to guard the mind properly unless you can also intrude to see 
> if attacks are blocked.)
> So even if he didn't know the situation before the event, he'd certainly 
> ferret it out in the questioning afterwards.

Pippin:
Lupin appears to be a natural occlumens. "Don't ask me to fathom the way 
a werewolf's mind works" and "An odd, closed expression appeared on 
Lupin's face." Adult Lupin is able to conceal that he's hiding something
from Dumbledore all year.

As for Sirius and James, the dementors couldn't tell from Sirius's thoughts 
that he was an animagus, so it  can't be obvious to the enquiring mind. 
Besides which, the werewolf outings were only a small part of their careers
of mischief and rule-breaking. Prodding Sirius or James for guilty feelings 
would have unleashed years of recollections, only a few of which would 
have to do with the monthly outings. No reason for Dumbledore to zero 
in on those if he didn't know what he was looking for.

If Sirius and James weren't questioned about queer
goings on in Hogsmeade or the forest, they didn't have to lie. They wouldn't
have gone to the willow *that* month, because they knew Snape had 
seen Madame Pomfrey taking Lupin to it and would be watching it from
now on. That's why something had to be done, IMO. Lupin knew that 
James and Sirius were too reckless to be put off for long.

Pippin







From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 10:21:06 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:21:06 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnvq7n+a1ps@...>
References: <dnvq7n+a1ps@...>
Message-ID: <200512171121.06321.silmariel@...>


> Kneasy:
> > Because DD is a Legilimans. (He didn't teach Harry himself because he
> > he thought it better to distance himself from Harry, not because he
> > couldn't. Occlumency and Legilimancy are two sides of the same coin, it's
> > not possible to teach how to guard the mind properly unless you can also
> > intrude to see if attacks are blocked.)
> > So even if he didn't know the situation before the event, he'd certainly
> > ferret it out in the questioning afterwards.
>
> Pippin:
> Lupin appears to be a natural occlumens. "Don't ask me to fathom the way
> a werewolf's mind works" and "An odd, closed expression appeared on
> Lupin's face." Adult Lupin is able to conceal that he's hiding something
> from Dumbledore all year.

Could you explain? A natural as a metamorphomagus or a natural as Draco? I can 
buy the second. Someone had to teach him and could do so in a short period. I 
can also buy that no one can read a transformed werewolf mind because there's 
no human mind there. Or are you suggesting that every werewolf is a natural 
occlumens? 'Cause Fenrir doesn't strike as one.

My point is we haven't seen Snape giving a break to Sirius or James, but he 
apparently has not much of a conflict regarding Remus, so maybe Snape's 
grudge was transferred almost entirely to purebloods that in this case used a 
halfbreed (or whatever was the insult on vogue those days) in a totally 
unrespectful way, I mean, they were his 'friends' and they didn't stop to 
think that if he was caught, he had no future in the WW. Talk of love.

So both 'tainted' bloods had the joke on them, that's something I think DD had 
clear and young Snape could (as opposed to surely) understand and relate to.

Was Occlumency something DD thought necessary for Lupin to survive out school? 
Was it the reward Snape obtained for his silence (how appropiate)?
 
>As for Sirius and James, the dementors couldn't tell from Sirius's thoughts 
>that he was an animagus, so it  can't be obvious to the enquiring mind. 

Not previous to the incident, but after that and competing with DD, they were 
sold, assuming they were standard (not Occlumency experts) students, they're 
sold, imo. Even if you have a lot of memories to guard, the 'I've just near 
killed a schoolfellow' should be on top for a long time. Either that or that 
James changed as a result of the Prank is rubbish, that of course, may be.

Silmariel




From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 10:38:31 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:38:31 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnpomq+pn68@...>
References: <dnpomq+pn68@...>
Message-ID: <200512171138.31532.silmariel@...>


Nora:
> You'll also note that many of
> her 'karmic' examples are quite specific--Umbridge damaged by beings
> which she overtly disdains, Lockheart taken down by his own weapon,
> Lucius Malfoy smacked around by the very same house elf which he had
> abused for years, etc.

Back to the incident of the train with the broken nose, it's a little 
difficult to be taken down by your own cloak, but this may be a case for 
'live by the cloak, die by the cloak'. It is specific.

Cloak is tied to: overconfidence, relying too much in a magic gimmick, 
sometimes taking risks just for fun, as during PoA, or because it seems the 
easy way, to take a bath in GoF. The way he has been using his cloak, 
basically, amounts to something, in the sense that if you take risks, 
sometimes, obviously, you'll lose.

Harry has had his way with armed-with-cloack, bending rules, taking risks, and 
scaping with it (of course, we as readers love it, but it isn't a excuse for 
our hero). It was time that reality caught with him, and if he was snooping 
Malfoy, his issues with Malfoy are the reality to be paid. It is a blink of 
anti "sheer dumb luck".

I don't think a broken nose is too harsh for being a risk taker, kids broke 
bones falling from trees and I don't think they 'deserve' it, but that's what 
happens, and they don't have instant cures, not to use nastier RL examples. 

A broken nose instantly curable is more of a reminding, really, and imo a way 
to show that with the situation in his control, Draco doesn't try to crucio 
Harry, as he does when he is surprised by him crying in a heart to heart talk 
with a girl, no less. He gives in to short term anger, but in any way I can 
consider he makes it last having a good time, or he uses out of bound spells. 
The part of abandoning him in the train is the standard treatment for every 
side, isn't it? You hex/transform/bind your enemy and abandon him on the 
train.

If you want to tie the result of the scene to the rest of the book, Harry 
spents all his year snooping on Malfoy whenever he is able to, and the 
results are not exactly bright, either. He learns it in time to forget it 
because of Snape.

Silmariel




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 12:20:30 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:20:30 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <dnvq7n+a1ps@...>
Message-ID: <do0vqe+d96m@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
>
> The BoG, the staff and the Ministry know about Slytherin's little pet, the
> parents, the kiddies and the Daily Prophet remain clueless. Myrtle's death
> is hushed up, the kids don't know why Hagrid was expelled and the
> same situation seems to obtain when the serpent returns. We're dealing
> with a people schooled in secrecy from childhood, after all.
> 

That's what we're supposed to believe, yes. The needs of the plot
over-riding commonsense reasoning, in all probablity.

DD runs Hogwarts School of Mayhem and Misdirection more or less as
he wishes, otherwise logically the damn place would be closed half the time.
Apparently DD doesn't keep parents informed, except maybe in an 
end-of-year report - 
"Little Agrippa has done very well in Herbology and Charms, though he 
needs to work on his athletic prowess, as was demonstrated by his 
inability to run fast enough to get away during the unfortunate outbreak 
of death-dealing monsters that caused a hiccup earlier in the year. You
may well have noticed that he didn't write home for a while.
Fortunately his petrification was reversed after only a few weeks and he 
soon caught up with the rest of his year - though I'd strongly advise that
you avoid the word 'serpent' for the time being - he's liable to become 
hysterical."

We are also expected to accept that the kids never bother to mention such
events in their owls to their families.
OK. It helps the plot progress, but it'd be great fun watching the oleaginous
DD scrambling down corridors to escape the wrath of pissed-off parents
waving wands.
 
> The staff and the Ministry know about Lupin's return (and one would 
> assume there's overlap between the Ministry and the Board). Again the 
> kiddies, parents and Prophet are out of the loop, Malfoy having 
> conveniently resigned prior to Lupin's return. I suspect  most board members
> are too old to have kids in school. It is somewhat tutworthy canon, as there
> could be a different setup for Lupin's initial sojourn chez Hogwarts, 
> but it would seem sloppy and a waste of all that exposition.
> 
> Lupin appears to be a natural occlumens. "Don't ask me to fathom the way 
> a werewolf's mind works" and "An odd, closed expression appeared on 
> Lupin's face." Adult Lupin is able to conceal that he's hiding something
> from Dumbledore all year.
> 

There's sloppy plotting dotted all over the place - the glaring discrepancy of
Lupin's transformations during Shrieking Shacks I & II having caused rumbles
in the past. 

Dementors don't give a toss whether one is an Animagus or not because
the mind is the same in both. And it's the mind they concentrate on - another
discrepancy that surfaced in the Sirius sub-plot.

As for DD and his whimsical asides - more deliberate misinformation or
misdirection IMO. The only times he's ever given half-way useful info
is during the traditional end-of-book exposition, and even then it pays
to concentrate on what he doesn't say or to look for alternative meanings
in what he does say. 

See, we all know that you're of the opinion that Lupin is to blame for more
or less everything since Attila the Hun was a lad and you don't believe a word
he says. Fine. No problem. But it looks as if your enthusiasm is running away 
with you when you start accepting that DD is a fount of veracity. A more 
secretive, devious, sneaky, manipulative old fixer than any that has stalked 
the pages of fiction for many a year. He may well be on the good side but
that doesn't mean he sticks to the Boy Scout Code. He most definitely doesn't.
Don't trust any of 'em, is my motto. They're all lying, prevaricating or covering
up for one reason or another - though it may not be because they're evil -
just weak, ashamed, embarrassed or even protective would do it for most. 

There's a political interviewer in the UK - in fact he did an interview with Jo
just before OoP - Paxman. That was a friendly one, but his usual style is very
different. He's said that when questioning politicos the thought uppermost
in his mind is "Why is this bastard lying to me?" A decent guideline when
tackling the HP books IMO.

> As for Sirius and James, the dementors couldn't tell from Sirius's thoughts 
> that he was an animagus, so it  can't be obvious to the enquiring mind. 
> Besides which, the werewolf outings were only a small part of their careers
> of mischief and rule-breaking. Prodding Sirius or James for guilty feelings 
> would have unleashed years of recollections, only a few of which would 
> have to do with the monthly outings. No reason for Dumbledore to zero 
> in on those if he didn't know what he was looking for.
> 
> If Sirius and James weren't questioned about queer
> goings on in Hogsmeade or the forest, they didn't have to lie. They wouldn't
> have gone to the willow *that* month, because they knew Snape had 
> seen Madame Pomfrey taking Lupin to it and would be watching it from
> now on. That's why something had to be done, IMO. Lupin knew that 
> James and Sirius were too reckless to be put off for long.
> 

All DD need do is ask Snape what happened in the tunnel. Then ask Sirius
and James for their versions. Memories associated with Werewolf!Lupin
would then flood to the surface of their thoughts - including the things
that they most definitely don't want DD to know about. "Mustn't mention
the Animagus outings, mustn't mention why we're so familiar with getting
past the Whomping Willow" would stand out like a beacon, I'd expect. If
nothing else, he'd detect lies - an attribute he's boasted about to Harry.

Kneasy






From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 14:38:53 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 06:38:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <do0vqe+d96m@...>
Message-ID: <20051217143853.58786.qmail@...>

Questioning the motives of the Wise Old Wizard? How
dare you!;0)
It sounds like you guys are spending far too much time
paying attention to "the man behind the curtain".  

Let's just drop a  big house on top of Voldemort and
be done with it!  Or perhaps if Hermione just throws a
bucket of water on Voldy and melts him.

OOEEEEEO  OOOOOOOOOOO OOOEEEEEO OOOOOOOOOO

By the way, I don't think Dumbledore is dead.  He just
transformed back into Neville's toad and scampered
off.

My prediction for  book seven :

Neville Longbottom will have to take a stand against
his friends and prevent Harry from killing someone. 
Otherwise Harry will become the monster that Voldemort
already is.  Neville's act of heroism will be the act
that saves to day.  Neville's toad then turns back
into Dumbledore and yells "well done Neville, well
done!"

Then Hermione, Harry, Ron, Neville, Ginny, and the
rest of the cast wrap arms around each others backs
and start doing high kicks while singing..."The sun
will come out tomorrow...Bet your Goblin's galleons
that tomorrow...We'll Be Fine!"

After which, a giant foot comes down on top of them
all and squashes them..... A voice then says...."And
now for something completely different...."  We then
are portkeyed to a group of dancing llamas.  The film
breaks and the lights in the theatre go on.....

Red Eye Randy




--- Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...>
wrote:

> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999"
> <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> >
> > The BoG, the staff and the Ministry know about
> Slytherin's little pet, the
> > parents, the kiddies and the Daily Prophet remain
> clueless. Myrtle's death
> > is hushed up, the kids don't know why Hagrid was
> expelled and the
> > same situation seems to obtain when the serpent
> returns. We're dealing
> > with a people schooled in secrecy from childhood,
> after all.
> > 
> 
> That's what we're supposed to believe, yes. The
> needs of the plot
> over-riding commonsense reasoning, in all
> probablity.
> 
> DD runs Hogwarts School of Mayhem and Misdirection
> more or less as
> he wishes, otherwise logically the damn place would
> be closed half the time.
> Apparently DD doesn't keep parents informed, except
> maybe in an 
> end-of-year report - 
> "Little Agrippa has done very well in Herbology and
> Charms, though he 
> needs to work on his athletic prowess, as was
> demonstrated by his 
> inability to run fast enough to get away during the
> unfortunate outbreak 
> of death-dealing monsters that caused a hiccup
> earlier in the year. You
> may well have noticed that he didn't write home for
> a while.
> Fortunately his petrification was reversed after
> only a few weeks and he 
> soon caught up with the rest of his year - though
> I'd strongly advise that
> you avoid the word 'serpent' for the time being -
> he's liable to become 
> hysterical."
> 
> We are also expected to accept that the kids never
> bother to mention such
> events in their owls to their families.
> OK. It helps the plot progress, but it'd be great
> fun watching the oleaginous
> DD scrambling down corridors to escape the wrath of
> pissed-off parents
> waving wands.
>  
> > The staff and the Ministry know about Lupin's
> return (and one would 
> > assume there's overlap between the Ministry and
> the Board). Again the 
> > kiddies, parents and Prophet are out of the loop,
> Malfoy having 
> > conveniently resigned prior to Lupin's return. I
> suspect  most board members
> > are too old to have kids in school. It is somewhat
> tutworthy canon, as there
> > could be a different setup for Lupin's initial
> sojourn chez Hogwarts, 
> > but it would seem sloppy and a waste of all that
> exposition.
> > 
> > Lupin appears to be a natural occlumens. "Don't
> ask me to fathom the way 
> > a werewolf's mind works" and "An odd, closed
> expression appeared on 
> > Lupin's face." Adult Lupin is able to conceal that
> he's hiding something
> > from Dumbledore all year.
> > 
> 
> There's sloppy plotting dotted all over the place -
> the glaring discrepancy of
> Lupin's transformations during Shrieking Shacks I &
> II having caused rumbles
> in the past. 
> 
> Dementors don't give a toss whether one is an
> Animagus or not because
> the mind is the same in both. And it's the mind they
> concentrate on - another
> discrepancy that surfaced in the Sirius sub-plot.
> 
> As for DD and his whimsical asides - more deliberate
> misinformation or
> misdirection IMO. The only times he's ever given
> half-way useful info
> is during the traditional end-of-book exposition,
> and even then it pays
> to concentrate on what he doesn't say or to look for
> alternative meanings
> in what he does say. 
> 
> See, we all know that you're of the opinion that
> Lupin is to blame for more
> or less everything since Attila the Hun was a lad
> and you don't believe a word
> he says. Fine. No problem. But it looks as if your
> enthusiasm is running away 
> with you when you start accepting that DD is a fount
> of veracity. A more 
> secretive, devious, sneaky, manipulative old fixer
> than any that has stalked 
> the pages of fiction for many a year. He may well be
> on the good side but
> that doesn't mean he sticks to the Boy Scout Code.
> He most definitely doesn't.
> Don't trust any of 'em, is my motto. They're all
> lying, prevaricating or covering
> up for one reason or another - though it may not be
> because they're evil -
> just weak, ashamed, embarrassed or even protective
> would do it for most. 
> 
> There's a political interviewer in the UK - in fact
> he did an interview with Jo
> just before OoP - Paxman. That was a friendly one,
> but his usual style is very
> different. He's said that when questioning politicos
> the thought uppermost
> in his mind is "Why is this bastard lying to me?" A
> decent guideline when
> tackling the HP books IMO.
> 
> > As for Sirius and James, the dementors couldn't
> tell from Sirius's thoughts 
> > that he was an animagus, so it  can't be obvious
> to the enquiring mind. 
> > Besides which, the werewolf outings were only a
> small part of their careers
> > of mischief and rule-breaking. Prodding Sirius or
> James for guilty feelings 
> > would have unleashed years of recollections, only
> a few of which would 
> > have to do with the monthly outings. No reason for
> Dumbledore to zero 
> > in on those if he didn't know what he was looking
> for.
> > 
> > If Sirius and James weren't questioned about queer
> > goings on in Hogsmeade or the forest, they didn't
> have to lie. They wouldn't
> > have gone to the willow *that* month, because they
> knew Snape had 
> > seen Madame Pomfrey taking Lupin to it and would
> be watching it from
> > now on. That's why something had to be done, IMO.
> Lupin knew that 
> > James and Sirius were too reckless to be put off
> for long.
> > 
> 
> All DD need do is ask Snape what happened in the
> tunnel. Then ask Sirius
> and James for their versions. Memories associated
> with Werewolf!Lupin
> would then flood to the surface of their thoughts -
> including the things
> that they most definitely don't want DD to know
> about. "Mustn't mention
> the Animagus outings, mustn't mention why we're so
> familiar with getting
> past the Whomping Willow" would stand out like a
> beacon, I'd expect. If
> nothing else, he'd detect lies - an attribute he's
> boasted about to Harry.
> 
> Kneasy
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 16:11:37 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:11:37 -0000
Subject: Harry's Cloak  Was:Re: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <200512171138.31532.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <do1dbp+qldu@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:
 
> Cloak is tied to: overconfidence, relying too much in a magic gimmick, 
> sometimes taking risks just for fun, as during PoA, or because it
seems the 
> easy way, to take a bath in GoF. The way he has been using his cloak, 
> basically, amounts to something, in the sense that if you take risks, 
> sometimes, obviously, you'll lose.
> 
> Harry has had his way with armed-with-cloack, bending rules, taking
risks, and 
> scaping with it (of course, we as readers love it, but it isn't a
excuse for 
> our hero). It was time that reality caught with him, and if he was
snooping 
> Malfoy, his issues with Malfoy are the reality to be paid. It is a
blink of 
> anti "sheer dumb luck".

Anne:
I'm with Silmariel for most of her post -- well, all of it, except
this wasn't the first time Harry relied on the cloak and then screwed
up with it.  In PS/SS he used it to take Norbert up the tower to
Charlie's friends and then *forgot* it, for heaven's sake, when he
came back down.  In PoA, while using it for selfish reasons, he found
that it only worked if it didn't accidentally slip off, and had to
abandon it in the tunnel until Hermione went and got it for him. 
Shortly after which, he abandoned it under a tree for one of his worst
enemies (so he thought) to use against him.  In GoF it transpired that
you could still be discovered if you dropped things out of it and
forgot that handy summoning spell you'd just learned a few months
back.  In OoP, um... well, it wasn't very warm, and it's not an
"invisibility marquee" :P. Then, surprise, surprise, in HBP people can
see your shoes if you jump above their heads.

A certain difficulty learning things and a continuing rash
impetuousity are his real problems, I reckon.  The cloak: "I can go
anywhere with this" and so he still thinks; and Snape: "he is my
enemy" and he still thinks that, too.

Anne
who loves that kid







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 16:27:13 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:27:13 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <do0vqe+d96m@...>
Message-ID: <do1e91+4i3m@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> 
> All DD need do is ask Snape what happened in the tunnel. 

Pippin:
Snape probably doesn't *know* what happened in the tunnel. If he was
under Imperius when he went in, the last thing he remembers is
probably standing outside it, like Katy. The shock of seeing the monster
lifted the curse (Hermione tells us this is what happened to Bode when
he lifted the prophecy.) 

DD doubtless discovered the Marauders had been in the shack and 
the tunnel plenty of times -- when Lupin wasn't
transformed. Naughty, but not a hanging offense.OTOH, their 
memories of being with werewolf!Lupin are the
memories of a dog and a stag. Less complex, less human,  much
less guilty and correspondingly more difficult to elicit. 

The occlumency clues around Lupin have to be there for a reason.
We can't really tell anything from Fenrir, because he doesn't meet
with Dumbledore till he has nothing to hide.

Pippin






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 17:47:19 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:47:19 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <do1e91+4i3m@...>
Message-ID: <do1iv7+afkd@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
>
> Snape probably doesn't *know* what happened in the tunnel. If he was
> under Imperius when he went in, 
>

Canon?

Kneasy







From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 18:31:28 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:31:28 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Smite Albus
In-Reply-To: <dnuofs+7q8a@...>
Message-ID: <000001c60338$1817c260$0200a8c0@hwin>

Randy wrote,

> I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> Cause I'm a no good so and so
> If Malfoy should miss him
> Then I'll be listenin'
> To hear
> Snape deal him the blow.

Aaaaah. You know, as a matter of principle, I like filks. But I'm such a
musical ignoramus that I hardly ever know the songs. All I can do is
read a slightly weird poem and try to make up a song for it as a I go,
which doesn't really work very well.

But I know this one.

Bliss.

Oh! Speaking of making up songs as one goes - that reminds of Pooh's
tiddly-pom song about when it keeps on snowing. Anybody filked that yet?

Mike




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 19:04:17 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:04:17 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <do1iv7+afkd@...>
Message-ID: <do1nfh+g14i@...>

> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> >
> > Snape probably doesn't *know* what happened in the tunnel. If he was
> > under Imperius when he went in, 
> >
> 
> Canon?

Pippin:
HBP ch 24. "...that necklace...can you remember who gave it to you now?"
"No," said Katie, shaking her head ruefully. "Everyone's been asking me
but I haven't got a clue. The last thing I remember was walking into the
ladies' in the Three Broomsticks."

"You definitely went into the bathroom, then?" said Hermione.
"Well, I know I pushed open the door," said Katie, "so I suppose whoever
Imperiused me was standing just behind it. After that my memory's a
blank until about two weeks ago in St. Mungo's."

OOP ch 26
"So that's why they killed him," [Hermione] said quietly, withdrawing
her gaze from Fred and George at last. "When Bode tried to steal
this weapon, something funny happened to him. I think there
must be defensive spells on it, or around it, to stop people from
touching it. That's why he was in St. Mungo's, his brain had gone
all funny and he couldn't talk. But remember what the Healer 
told us? He was recovering. And they couldn't risk him getting
better, could they? I mean, the shock of whatever happened when
he touched that weapon probably made the Imperius curse lift.
Once he'd got his voice back, he'd explain what he'd been
doing, wouldn't he. They would have known he'd been sent
to steal the weapon."

CoS ch 16
"I shall take a bit of this skin back up to the school, tell them
I was too late to save the girl and that you *tragically* lost
your minds at the sight of her mangled body."

GoF ch 30
"A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore
sighed, "but never mind." He peered over the top of his half-moon
spectacles at Harry, who was gaping at Snape's face, which was
continuing to swirl around the bowl. [snip explanation about Fudge]

Dumbledore shook his head. "Curiousity is not a sin," he said. "But
we should exercise caution with our curiousity...yes, indeed..."
Frowning slightly, he prodded the thoughts within the basin with
the tip of his wand. Instantly a figure rose out of it, a plump,
scowling girl of about sixteen, who began to revolve slowly,
with her feet still in the basin.<snip>
"But why, Bertha," said Dumbledore sadly, looking up at the 
now silently revolving girl,"why did you have to follow him in the
first place?"

--
Sooo....Dumbledore's pensieve connects Snape with Bertha, who
also followed somebody she shouldn't have. Dumbledore blames
curiousity. But if he's wrong...

Snape wouldn't be able to  explain why he entered the tunnel 
if the curse made him forget. The curse itself could have been
broken by the shock of seeing the monster, but Snape, like 
Katy, still might not remember anything that happened after 
it was put on him. (Considering Bode, Draco was lucky there --
or rather, Madame Rosmerta was.) 

The shock of seeing the monster also provides a reason for 
Snape's memory to be damaged, especially if Snape's head got
smacked on the roof of the tunnel a few times as James was 
pulling him out.

(I like to think that James flew down the tunnel after Snape
on his broom, and Dumbledore was inclined to think that it
was lucky James *had* been down the tunnel before, so that
he knew the twists and turns well enough to take it at speed
in the dark. Very thrilling. But that's just my imagination.)

It's only a theory that any coercion was used, but we agreed it
was likely. Another possibility is the confundus curse, which
seems to make people do the opposite of what they intend.


Pippin






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 20:23:09 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:23:09 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <do1nfh+g14i@...>
Message-ID: <do1s3d+778d@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> snip>
> It's only a theory that any coercion was used, but we agreed it
> was likely. Another possibility is the confundus curse, which
> seems to make people do the opposite of what they intend.
> 
> 

Ah. That's a relief. The statement was made with such certitude that
I was worried that 'd missed something, that a chapter or two had 
been excised from my copies while I was looking the other way.

The 'we' - mmm... does not include myself, I'm afraid. Though I do 
agree that Snape was deliberately and probably with malice afore-
thought sent into harms way, the idea of magical compulsion doesn't
sit comfortably. Oh, it's not impossible, but the odds are against IMO.

Confundus - my reading is that is causes confusion so that the victim
can't quite recall what he was meant to be doing and can't concentrate
well enough or long enough to get himself sorted out; induces a
sort of random uncoordinated action, in other words. Bit difficult to use
that and expect someone to pop down a glorified rabbit-hole I'd think.

Which, SFAWK leaves James and Sirius playing at Imperio!
Where did they/he learn it? They don't even *see* it until the 6th year.
Doubtful if they ever practice casting it, even then. That, after all,
is Draco's point when he mentions that dear old dad wanted him
sent to Durmstrang - they do Dark Magic properly, they actually 
*learn* the spells (authors emphasis) instead of the defence rubbish
they do at Hogwarts. So who would teach J&S to cast Imperius curses?

Mind you, it would answer that nagging question of why the hell Sevvy
would believe anything Sirius tells him? Difficult. I recall posting an
imaginary exchange between the two, but that was out of frustration
at how little we know about the event.

An Imperius curse would smooth out the wrinkles .... but.... no, sorry,
I just don't buy it.

Kneasy






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 22:09:40 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:09:40 -0000
Subject: Dragons, Produced and Tickled, and Other Pleasantries
In-Reply-To: <do1s3d+778d@...>
Message-ID: <do22b4+epm5@...>

Kneasy:
> Ah. That's a relief. The statement was made with such certitude that
> I was worried that 'd missed something, that a chapter or two had 
> been excised from my copies while I was looking the other way.

Pippin:
I did say 'if'. 
> 
> The 'we' - mmm... does not include myself, I'm afraid. Though I do 
> agree that Snape was deliberately and probably with malice afore-
> thought sent into harms way, the idea of magical compulsion doesn't
> sit comfortably. Oh, it's not impossible, but the odds are against IMO.
> 
> Confundus - my reading is that is causes confusion so that the victim
> can't quite recall what he was meant to be doing and can't concentrate
> well enough or long enough to get himself sorted out; induces a
> sort of random uncoordinated action, in other words. Bit difficult to use
> that and expect someone to pop down a glorified rabbit-hole I'd think.

Pippin:
Snape seems to think Sirius and Lupin used it to convince HRH that
he, not Sirius, was the enemy. Their attack on him was hardly random
and uncoordinated. 

Kneasy:
> Which, SFAWK leaves James and Sirius playing at Imperio!
> Where did they/he learn it? They don't even *see* it until the 6th year.

Pippin:
Where did they learn to be Animagi? Nothing like having an I-cloak at
your disposal if you're planning to raid the restricted section.
Besides which, Voldemort was active and giving people quite a bit of 
trouble with the I-curse. And *he* was making animals obey him 
without training at the ripe old age of eleven, without even a wand.

 My theory holds, however,  that James and Sirius  didn't have any part 
in seeing that Snape entered the willow just when he'd encounter 
transformed Lupin. Which is why Dumbledore's questioning never
produces any evidence to back up Sevvie's contention that they
must have known. 

One of our missing pieces of evidence is *how* James heard what 
Sirius had done. Supposing Lupin had heard too, (unbeknownst to either
James or Sirius) then he could ambush Snape, hex him, and trot 
off to the willow knowing that Snape would show up just in time 
for a midnight snack. 

Snape's credulity isn't the only wrinkle that would be smoothed out.
Lupin's transformation is supposed to be accompanied by howls 
and shrieks of pain -- you'd think Sevvie would hear them and 
run, instead of which he hurtles onward towards his doom and 
has to be pulled back by James. Curious, very curious.

I think Lupin learned Imperius on his own--
he's a bookish kid, in ill health -- plenty of time to read and not 
ashamed to be seen doing it.  

Pippin






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 17 23:55:10 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:55:10 -0000
Subject: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry / Harry's Erised / what DD remembered
Message-ID: <do28gu+attp@...>

Silmariel wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3487 :

<< With Ginny, for example, I have a conflict when it comes to
Zacharias Smith. She sais she hexes him because he annoyed her. To
start, Ginny is easily annoyed, but to end, what I know of that guy
from OoP is that he was a non-traitorous DADA member whose worst crime
was to be an skeptic and to be brave enough to confront Harry with the
doubts half or more the wizarding population had. Perfect girl? Huh?
Integration of the houses, remember, not hexing Hufflepuffes that I'm
not aware exactly why (offscreen, sorry) are supposed to be annoying
to the point of being hexed. >>

Like Lily Evans accused fifth-year James of hexing anyone who annoyed
him just because he can? Is part of Ginny being perfect for Harry that
she resembles his *father*? 

Nora wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3488 :

<< I think there's something particularly about blood ideology, its
kind of essentialism, which is being singled out. I don't think
Voldemort could have built what he did on the doctrine
of "kill the stupid", for instance. :) >>

But there is a history of so-called religious leaders doing it with
'kill the unbelievers! kill the sinners!'

Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3490 :

<< The Potters smiled and waved at Harry..." -PS/SS ch 12

Isn't it strange how our hearts go out to Harry, and yet his dream
is little different than Slytherin's? Harry even assumes that he
gets all his desirable traits from his wizard relatives, the Potters,
and yet we know (and so would he if he thought about it) that
his green eyes come from Mum. >>

I had a big problem with that -- the people in the Mirror couldn't all
be Potters because some are from his mother's side -- until someone on
TOL told me that 'the Potters' who smiled and waved at Harry are James
and Lily, not the whole crowd.

Young Harry's dearest dream was to be surrounded by people who accept,
stand by, and love him. He thinks that means family, parents and
grandparents (and aunts and cousin who aren't Petunia and Dudley) of
his own, and the only way the Mirror can demonstrate that the people
it invented are his family is by showing the family resemblance of
appearance. He would be just as happy to meet James's parents, his
grandparents, alive if they looked not at all like him and James.

He thinks 'people who love him' means 'family' because, not having
parents and grandparents of his own as a reality check, he has been
deceived by the deluge of TV shows and story books and greeting cards
that depict parents and grandparents as wonderful.

Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3513 :

<<  "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus."

This could have multiples of meaning:
a) No, I haven't forgotten that they did try to kill you,
b) No, I haven't forgotten that you believe they tried to kill you,
or, and this one is a bit twistier
c) No, I haven't forgotten what happened, nor that there was no
punishment meted out, nor that you agreed not to stir up
trouble, nor that I owe you big time because of it. >>

Or, d) I also remember that you participated in killings with your
Death Eaters buddies (at the age of 19), and that you would be in
Azkaban for it if I hadn't spoken for you.






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 18 13:39:07 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:39:07 +0000
Subject: Unsuspected influences
Message-ID: <B20E9590-DE76-4AA3-A4B8-73D11E71B4D4@...>

Browsing through the Sunday supplements, usual arty-farty claptrap,  
on to the programme listings in the vain hope of finding some  
justification for owning a television set (doomed to fail yet again),  
when the details of a radio prog caught my eye.

Christmas Eve, 5pm BBC Radio 4, 'Living with Harry Potter.'
A two-hander - Jo and Stephen Fry.

Fair enough, says I, but why don't they broadcast the audio version  
of an entire book, as they did at Christmas a few years back? Then I  
read on.

"Rowling describes her fortune-making blend of fiction and folklore  
while Fry admits he has to listen to past recordings to remind him of  
the voices he's used for various characters in the past"
Ho hum.
But then comes the stunner:
"And it transpires that Fry's readings have actually affected the way  
Rowling has written subsequent instalments."

Oops.
Can it really be that Fry's vocal interpretations have slanted how  
those characters have developed later? So that if Fry decides to  
give, say, Lupin, a Uriah Heep-type whine or a noble, bearing-up-in- 
adversity strength (a la Sidney Carton) that had an influence on how  
Jo developed the character?
What a bummer.
Or have I  totally misunderstood what they're on about?

I've commented before that I don't like the films much, that the  
director's view tends to replace the image of the character that had  
developed in my mind as I read the books - now maybe here's an  
indication that such effects are more wide-spread than any of us ever  
dreamed.

I've only heard one of the audio tapes (that radio broadcast of PS/ 
SS), others will have a greater familiarity with them. So - is there  
any evidence of Fry pre-empting the author?


Another snippet culled from the supplements.
A list of book prizes won during the past year, among which:

The Samuel Johnson Award for non--fiction -
Jonathan Coe 'Like a Fiery Elephant': The Story  of B.S.Johnson.

As ane fule kno, B.S.Johnson is 'Bloody Stupid' Johnson, the failed   
landscape designer, architect and inventor whose cock-ups litter the  
environs of Ankh-Morpork. (An ornamental lake, hundreds of yards long  
but only an inch wide, so the fish can't turn round, is one example.)

Is this Coe person trying to transfer the blame for the monstrosities  
that blight our urban landscape onto a fictional character?
For shame!
Name names, sir!
Expose the real culprits!

Kneasy



From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 18 14:11:34 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:11:34 +0000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Unsuspected influences
In-Reply-To: <B20E9590-DE76-4AA3-A4B8-73D11E71B4D4@...>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20051218135418.00b7a8d0@...>

At 13:39 18/12/2005 , Barry Arrowsmith wrote:

>Christmas Eve, 5pm BBC Radio 4, 'Living with Harry Potter.'
>A two-hander - Jo and Stephen Fry.

That's "old news" rather than "new news". It's a repeat of a programme 
broadcast last week. A full transcript is available online:
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/1205-bbc-fry.html


>"And it transpires that Fry's readings have actually affected the way
>Rowling has written subsequent instalments."
>
>Oops.
>Can it really be that Fry's vocal interpretations have slanted how
>those characters have developed later?

It's dangerous to extrapolate full content from a two-sentence summary, 
especially when that summary is designed to (over)sell the original. I 
*suspect* that what the summary is referring to with that comment is JKR's 
realisation that "It's very hard to hiss something with no sibilant in it. 
Someone had hissed something like 'don't do that.' [...] Every time I want 
someone to be hissing, which Snape does quite a lot, I have to check 
there's actually an 's' in it [...]".

>I've commented before that I don't like the films much, that the
>director's view tends to replace the image of the character that had
>developed in my mind as I read the books

Surely that's axiomatic? What's on the screen with any film adaptation *is* 
the director's view of the story and world in question. Of course, that 
view will differ from the views of a significant number of readers, who 
will therefore be unhappy with the outcome. Personally, I just take it as 
just one of many views I encounter and draw appropriate conclusions.

Of course, in the case of blockbuster movies, their ubiquity in the 
"cultural space" can make some viewers question their own perceptions of 
the source material, and give a particular film weight it doesn't deserve. 
In the case of the HP movies, this is made more difficult by the fact that 
JKR is known to have input, and some people assume that the movies' 
perceptions are *her* perceptions, which is a particularly dangerous 
assumption to make. Furthermore, some people have difficulty disassociating 
the images on the screen from the images in their heads when reading the 
books, which further confuses the issue (personally, I don't have that 
problem; I certainly don't see Radcliffe's face - or even hear his voice! - 
when reading).




From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 18 14:52:37 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:52:37 -0000
Subject: Unsuspected influences
In-Reply-To: <B20E9590-DE76-4AA3-A4B8-73D11E71B4D4@...>
Message-ID: <do3t3l+3kae@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>
> 
> Another snippet culled from the supplements.
> A list of book prizes won during the past year, among which:
> 
> The Samuel Johnson Award for non--fiction -
> Jonathan Coe 'Like a Fiery Elephant': The Story  of B.S.Johnson.
> 
> As ane fule kno, B.S.Johnson is 'Bloody Stupid' Johnson, the 
failed   landscape designer, architect and inventor whose cock-ups 
litter the  environs of Ankh-Morpork. (An ornamental lake, hundreds 
of yards long  but only an inch wide, so the fish can't turn round, 
is one example.)
> 
> Is this Coe person trying to transfer the blame for the 
monstrosities  that blight our urban landscape onto a fictional 
character?
> For shame!
> Name names, sir!
> Expose the real culprits!
> 
> Kneasy
>

Didn't you watch 'Demolition' last night? Very good and right up your 
street (possibly literally). Same bloke who does Grand Designs, but 
this time in reverse, campaigning for 'X' status listing on eyesores 
throughout the country. Nearly all your favourite '60s towerblocks 
were listed for the chop, and an ageing beardy led one vigilante 
squad with a cold chisel and a hammer. Wasn't you was it??

Carolyn






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 18 16:11:35 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:11:35 -0000
Subject: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry / Harry's Erised / what DD remembered
In-Reply-To: <do28gu+attp@...>
Message-ID: <do41nn+p2ab@...>

Rita:
> Young Harry's dearest dream was to be surrounded by people who accept,
> stand by, and love him. He thinks that means family, parents and
> grandparents (and aunts and cousin who aren't Petunia and Dudley) of
> his own, <sip>

Pippin:
Yes, yes, yes!  Harry didn't want to be surrounded by
his family because he wanted to build a powerblock. He wanted to
be surrounded Potters because he felt he could trust them, which 
is exactly what Slytherin felt about *his* family, the pureblood 
wizards, only Binns puts it in the negative. 

"Slytherin disliked taking children of Muggle parentage, believing
them to be untrustworthy. 

It isn't till later, when, according to the Hat, *all* the founders are
struggling for power, that Slytherin's paranoia  comes to the
fore and he wants to see Hogwarts as a whole restricted to purebloods
only. Actually, if he continued to believe that purebloods were the
most powerful wizards, then insisting that all the Houses admit
only purebloods would have made his own house and powerblock
relatively weaker.

Pippin
who agrees with Rita that there have been many non-racial
rallying cries in RL. Like  "Kill the witches!"







From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 18 17:56:45 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:56:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] New Filk: How Do You Solve the Problems With the Plot Lines?
In-Reply-To: <dnvdut+110d1@...>
Message-ID: <20051218175645.71226.qmail@...>


--- fhmaneely <fmaneely at ...> wrote:

> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy"
> <estesrandy at y...> wrote:
> >
> > The Scene:  Voldemort sits by a quiet fire smoking
> his pipe and 
> > ponders his next move..
> > 
> > Smite Albus
> > (sung to the tune of  White Christmas)
> > 
> > I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> > Cause I'm a no good so and so
> > If Malfoy should miss him
> > Then I'll be listenin'
> > To hear
> > Snape deal him the blow.
> > 
> > I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> > With every evil plan I write
> > May his days be numbered tonight
> > And may all those kids of his feel fright
> > 
> > I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> > He never trusted me you know
> > Said I was abusive
> > Somewhat elusive
> > Made me return things that I stole.
> > 
> > I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> > With him my plans never work right
> > May old Dumbledore die tonight
> > And may all those kids of his feel fright 
> > 
> > 
> > Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All magical and
> muggle rights 
> reserved.
> >
> Since it is the 40th aniversary of the Sound of
> Music.....how about a 
> filk sung to tune of How Do You Sove a Problem Like
> Maria.  Change 
> Maria to Voldie. 
> How do you solve a problem like Voldie
> How do you kill man who's soul has split....
> 
> That's about all I can come up with.
> 
> Regards,
> Fran
> 

You know, Fran, I started to write this song, and I
kept looking at the words.  The words just jumped out
at me and took me into another direction.  I scampered
off after the words like Scabbers sneaking off from
the kids when Lupin became a werewolf.  So here is
what I came up with. I hope you enjoy it. I dedicate
it to the Old Crowd....

How Do You Solve the Problems With the Plot Lines?

(sung to the tune of How Do You Solve a Problem like
Maria?
>From the Sound of Music by Rodgers and Hammerstein)
New Words by Randy Estes

The old crowd is sitting around the table in a
restaurant having tea and biscuits.  Kneasy and Pippin
start to discuss their latest theories when the group
starts one by one to break into song. You can decide
who sings which line.  I prefer Ms Rowling makes me
laugh


She makes Harry hang with Dursleys
His room beneath the stairs
And constantly he feels harassed
A Wizard unaware
But soon hes off to Hogwarts
To the life his parents shared
We praised her book endings most every Summer

Shes always great for humor
And her characters seem real
Shes always late for publishing
Every moment she can steal
I hate to have to say it
But I very firmly feel
Ms. Rowlings left some holes the size of Hummers

Id like to say a word on her behalf
Ms. Rowling makes me laugh

But

How do you solve the problems with the plot lines?
How do you solve the clues shes left around?
How do you find the words to tell Ms. Rowling?
A plot bunny dropping! And so many adverbs abound?

Many a thing you know youd like to tell her
Many a thing she ought to understand
But how do you make her stay
And listen to all you say
How do you keep her thoughts in your command?

Oh how do you solve the problems with the plot lines?
How do you make the stories fit your plans?

When I read her Im confused
And that character is misused
And I never know what is Snapes master plan 
Unpredictable as weather
Her bad guys disguised forever
Hes a diary! Hes a werewolf! A different Man!

Rowlings plot lines always twist
Fooling readers she cant resist
She will throw Dark Arts Professors out of school.
She is sneaky! She is sly!
Has a twinkle in her eye!
Non-conformist! Shes a liberal!
Shes no fool!

But

How do you solve the problems with the plot lines?
How do you solve the clues shes left around?
How do you find the words to tell Ms. Rowling?
A plot bunny dropping! And so many adverbs abound?

Many a thing you know youd like to tell her
Many a thing she ought to understand
But how do you make her stay
And listen to all you say
How do you keep her thoughts in your command?

Oh how do you solve the problems with the plot lines?
How do you make the stories fit your plans?



Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes.  All rights reserved.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 18 20:05:33 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:05:33 -0000
Subject: New Filk: How Do You Solve the Problems With the Plot Lines?
In-Reply-To: <20051218175645.71226.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <do4fed+46fe@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Randy Estes <estesrandy at y...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> --- fhmaneely <fmaneely at b...> wrote:
> 
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy"
> > <estesrandy at y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The Scene:  Voldemort sits by a quiet fire smoking
> > his pipe and 
> > > ponders his next move
..
> > > 
> > > Smite Albus
> > > (sung to the tune of  White Christmas)
> > > 
> > > I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> > > Cause I'm a no good so and so
> > > If Malfoy should miss him
> > > Then I'll be listenin'
> > > To hear
> > > Snape deal him the blow.
> > > 
> > > I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> > > With every evil plan I write
> > > May his days be numbered tonight
> > > And may all those kids of his feel fright
> > > 
> > > I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> > > He never trusted me you know
> > > Said I was abusive
> > > Somewhat elusive
> > > Made me return things that I stole.
> > > 
> > > I'm scheming how to smite Albus
> > > With him my plans never work right
> > > May old Dumbledore die tonight
> > > And may all those kids of his feel fright 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All magical and
> > muggle rights 
> > reserved.
> > >
> > Since it is the 40th aniversary of the Sound of
> > Music.....how about a 
> > filk sung to tune of How Do You Sove a Problem Like
> > Maria.  Change 
> > Maria to Voldie. 
> > How do you solve a problem like Voldie
> > How do you kill man who's soul has split....
> > 
> > That's about all I can come up with.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Fran
> > 
> 
> You know, Fran, I started to write this song, and I
> kept looking at the words.  The words just jumped out
> at me and took me into another direction.  I scampered
> off after the words like Scabbers sneaking off from
> the kids when Lupin became a werewolf.  So here is
> what I came up with. I hope you enjoy it. I dedicate
> it to the Old Crowd....
> 
> How Do You Solve the Problems With the Plot Lines?
> 
> (sung to the tune of "How Do You Solve a Problem like
> Maria?"
> From the Sound of Music by Rodgers and Hammerstein)
> New Words by Randy Estes
> 
> The old crowd is sitting around the table in a
> restaurant having tea and biscuits.  Kneasy and Pippin
> start to discuss their latest theories when the group
> starts one by one to break into song. You can decide
> who sings which line.  I prefer "Ms Rowling makes me
> laugh"
> 
> 
> She makes Harry hang with Dursleys
> His room beneath the stairs
> And constantly he feels harassed
> A Wizard unaware
> But soon he's off to Hogwarts
> To the life his parents shared
> We praised her book endings most every Summer
> 
> She's always great for humor
> And her characters seem real
> She's always late for publishing
> Every moment she can steal
> I hate to have to say it
> But I very firmly feel
> Ms. Rowling's left some holes the size of Hummers
> 
> I'd like to say a word on her behalf
> Ms. Rowling makes me laugh
> 
> But

> 
> How do you solve the problems with the plot lines?
> How do you solve the clues she's left around?
> How do you find the words to tell Ms. Rowling?
> A plot bunny dropping! And so many adverbs abound?
> 
> Many a thing you know you'd like to tell her
> Many a thing she ought to understand
> But how do you make her stay
> And listen to all you say
> How do you keep her thoughts in your command?
> 
> Oh how do you solve the problems with the plot lines?
> How do you make the stories fit your plans?
> 
> When I read her I'm confused
> And that character is misused
> And I never know what is Snape's master plan 
> Unpredictable as weather
> Her bad guys disguised forever
> He's a diary! He's a werewolf! A different Man!
> 
> Rowling's plot lines always twist
> Fooling readers she can't resist
> She will throw Dark Arts Professors out of school.
> She is sneaky! She is sly!
> Has a twinkle in her eye!
> Non-conformist! She's a liberal!
> She's no fool!
> 
> But

> 
> How do you solve the problems with the plot lines?
> How do you solve the clues she's left around?
> How do you find the words to tell Ms. Rowling?
> A plot bunny dropping! And so many adverbs abound?
> 
> Many a thing you know you'd like to tell her
> Many a thing she ought to understand
> But how do you make her stay
> And listen to all you say
> How do you keep her thoughts in your command?
> 
> Oh how do you solve the problems with the plot lines?
> How do you make the stories fit your plans?
> 
> 
> 
> Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes.  All rights reserved.

I love it!!  Now what can you do with the Do Re Mi song.....
BTW, the movie was on tv last night!

Fran
 

> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec 19 23:01:51 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:01:51 +0000
Subject: Names, the (K)night bus, more names (but OT)
Message-ID: <60F4DFB2-A243-4D2A-A7AA-DD93E0A999D9@...>

Evocative things, names -  or they can be.

Many  fans have spent long hours pondering the names with which JKR  
has graced her books. Long posts have resulted that detail the  
symbolic meanings of flower names and the like, and wondering if  
connections existing below the surface of the plot can be ferreted  
out by linking characters through the  names assigned to them.

Not so, said JKR in her March '04 webcast - no connection between  
Lily, Petunia and Narcissa, but first names that fall into certain  
categories can sometimes be regarded as a family tradition.

We accept that  many of the surnames are either intentional jokes  
(Ernie Prang  and Stan Shunpike on the Knight Bus, for example) or  
are evocative and perhaps intended  to influence our perceptions of a  
family or an individual's likely place in the spectrum of good and  
evil. So  we have Croaker, Fudge, Flint, Riddle, Umbridge, Moody,  
Black, Skeeter and Bode. Then there are the names with even darker  
overtones - Voldemort, Malfoy and Lestrange - odd that those all seem  
to be of French derivation.

Strangely enough, though there are plenty of possible hints among the  
surnames it's the first names that have attracted the most attention  
from posters even though JKR implies that there is not much there of  
interest. But  we do like to think that we see connections or  
patterns - a kind of gestalt theory in practice. But we've probably  
missed a trick. Wizarding names, the surnames, seem idiosyncratic,  
slightly off-kilter, yet despite posting the occasional prod over the  
last two or three years, no-one has shown the slightest interest in  
the strangeness of the name Potter for a pure-blood family. Or is it  
only me who thinks so?

The use of 'Knight Bus' brings memories flooding back.
Those across the water may not be aware that 'The Knight Bus' is a  
bit of a pun. At the risk of boring the cognoscenti, let me take you  
back a few decades. In the larger conurbations normal bus services  
stopped at about 11-11.30  pm, which was a bit of a frost if you  
liked to carouse on past the witching hour or if you were a shift  
worker. Taxis were comparatively expensive and usually few in number  
(outside the really big cities, anyway), so as a public service the  
bus company or the local corporation ran the Night Bus - a boon to  
all student revellers, late night matinee addicts and dirty stop- 
outs. They still exist, but like most things nowadays the character  
of the institution has changed, and what with strictly enforced rules  
and a rise in the aggression level of many of the drinking classes  
that's inevitable, but sad.

The old Night Bus ran on selected routes at infrequent intervals and  
was often an entertainment in itself, well worth the price of the  
ticket. Way back then, they still used double-decker buses with  
conductors instead of these one-man operation disasters, and the  
crews were usually hard-bitten veterans, up for anything, a cross  
between Mother Theresa and a power-mad swimming baths attendant. Eric  
was a regular conductor on the route I frequented most (in  
Birmingham, this was), a beanpole of a man, hair like a blonde Brillo- 
pad and extra-thick  glasses. Never stopped talking - stream of  
consciousness gossip "So I said to her.... and she said to me... and  
I've never been so gob-smacked in all my life...Oh hello, petal!  
still seeing that nurse at the General, are you?" This latter with a  
beaming smile as one offered the fare. Lovely feller, cheered you up  
just meeting him.

He wasn't averse to directing Beryl (his long-suffering driver) off  
the official route and right up to the front door of a passenger who  
he'd taken a shine to. "Beryl! Beryl! If you don't turn left  
immediately I'll smack your bum! This is an emergency! Right, my  
girl! No bacon sandwich for you tomorrow! Huh!"

One time, we turned right at Five Ways (instead of going straight on  
up Hagley Road) and ended up somewhere off Portland Road (a good mile  
off the official route) and the rest of us sat chatting while he  
helped an old dear into her house. He was gone a long time and when  
asked why - "Her cat was stuck behind the cooker. Had to help, didn't  
I?" The passengers loved him, the Inspectors didn't. I'd always  
thought of him as a one-off, but it's not unlikely that Jo had some  
memorable late-night bus journeys herself.

Other writers have fun with names, too. Iain M. Banks does -  though  
in a very different way. (He writes as Iain Banks for mainstream  
fiction and the middle M is added for his SF stuff - and that's the  
persona I'm referring to.)
Whole websites concentrate on the names of his Culture Vessels,  
spaceships, massive constructs run by Artificial Intelligences who  
seem to choose what the ships are called. Here's a selection:
Flexible Demeanor
Unfortunate Conflict Of Evidence
So Much For Subtlety
Fate Amenable To Change
Jaundiced Outlook
Poke It With A Stick
Not Invented Here
Funny, It Worked Last Time
I Thought He Was With You
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival
I Blame Your Mother
Sleeper Service
I Blame My Mother
Attitude Adjuster
A Series Off Unlikely Explanations

There are dozens more.
It certainly gives one pause when a ship named 'Frank  Exchange Of  
Views' joins the action. Especially as it's a Rapid Offensive Unit  
(Psychopath Class). You can't say you haven't been given a hint, can  
you?

Kneasy




From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 20 10:48:31 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:48:31 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry /  what DD remembered / Harry's Cloak ... ...
In-Reply-To: <do28gu+attp@...>
References: <do28gu+attp@...>
Message-ID: <200512201148.31083.silmariel@...>


Rita:
> Like Lily Evans accused fifth-year James of hexing anyone who annoyed
> him just because he can? Is part of Ginny being perfect for Harry that
> she resembles his *father*?
>

That explains it nicely, I just couldn't see her as the likes of Lily however 
equal they apparently are in the surface, but as James, perfectly.

> Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3513 :
>
> <<  "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus."
>
> This could have multiples of meaning:
> a) No, I haven't forgotten that they did try to kill you,
> b) No, I haven't forgotten that you believe they tried to kill you,
> or, and this one is a bit twistier
> c) No, I haven't forgotten what happened, nor that there was no
> punishment meted out, nor that you agreed not to stir up
> trouble, nor that I owe you big time because of it. >>
>
Rita:
> Or, d) I also remember that you participated in killings with your
> Death Eaters buddies (at the age of 19), and that you would be in
> Azkaban for it if I hadn't spoken for you.

d) Rephrased: I also remember I'm the only person that has believed you/in 
you. (Let's put parents aside)

Let's face it, he's not a character easy to trust, he's no Hagrid. We'd eat 
any word of Hagrid as not being insincere. Incorrect, biased, maybe, but 
never to doubt him, only his knowledge/sense.

Fudge ignoring the Dark Mark when he showed it amounts to a Minister ignoring 
this former member of the terrorist cupula that is telling they are back and 
is showing you a document sent by them. Quite frustrating and possibly his 
everyday expected reaction when he tells the truth.

If the truth he was trying to tell was 'however unlikely it may seem, I want 
to change sides', it probably compensated for c)

I like the idea that the other important moment when he was not believed was 
when he tried to warn the James that one of his "they would die for me" 
friends was a traitor.

Anne:
<<In PS/SS he used it to take Norbert up the tower to
Charlie's friends and then *forgot* it, for heaven's sake, when he
came back down. In PoA, while using it for selfish reasons, he found
that it only worked if it didn't accidentally slip off, and had to
abandon it in the tunnel until Hermione went and got it for him.
Shortly after which, he abandoned it under a tree for one of his worst
enemies (so he thought) to use against him.>>

That bothered me a lot, at first, but after a while I assimilated it to 
Anakin's habit of dropping lightsabers, a recurring joke. It's the kind of 
thing that makes me think 'for heaven's sake', yes, but I've never known if 
it was only me, it also freaks me when they leave an open door in films 
unless it is very stated from the start that the scenario is the kind of 
community where no one needs to bother if it's open or not.

I'm more reconciled with Harry now that I can speak more or less freely about 
him. I don't have a problem with him as a normal youngster, someone we can 
study and find some faults and some highlights, even can like him, but I 
really went to the point of almost disliking the character on TOL, because of 
the hard core of Harry apologists that treat him as what I have to call 
'Saint Potter'. Icks.

Pippin:
<<who agrees with Rita that there have been many non-racial
rallying cries in RL. Like  "Kill the witches!">>

I toyed with an Artist society where the motto was "Kill the dull!". The 
artistically speaking dull, I mean, I don't know a word for it in English.

SSSusan and Kneasy in... too many posts last week, sorry :-P I've lost track 
of them:

> SSSusan:
> Heh heh.  I suggest putting this out on TOL and seeing what happens.  Talk 
about 
people Taking Things Seriously.  I'm sick to death of the discussions of who's 
a child 
abuser and who's not, what constitutes abuse, how culpable was DD in Harry's 
abuse, and 
all of that.  I prefer the straightforward statement that "he's a 
pragmatist... it didn't stop 
him from forging Weapon!Harry" and the final statement of yours I quoted.  
It's the truth, 
and it's the way it is, and I wish there'd stop being so much *judgment* of it 
Over There.
> 

Kneasy:
<<Feel free to transfer any bits you wish - I'll not post over there as a 
matter of principle, but I've no objection to being quoted. And with luck it 
could upset one or two of the more precious variety of poster.>>

I've read (well, half, I got bored) the 
http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/home.php?page=docs/interviews that appeared 
referenced in a post on TOL, and amongst other things the author appears to 
be a little freaked out with the 'vampire' clues. Maybe is time to transfer 
certain Dragon to TOL?

Randy on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3538

<<You can decide who sings which line. I prefer "Ms Rowling makes me
laugh">>

I like "How do you find the words to tell Ms. Rowling?"

I don't usually know the songs inspiring Filks. Loved it. You've actually made 
me sing.

Silmariel




From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 20 11:45:30 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:45:30 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Names, the (K)night bus, Elements (was more names (but OT))
In-Reply-To: <60F4DFB2-A243-4D2A-A7AA-DD93E0A999D9@...>
References: <60F4DFB2-A243-4D2A-A7AA-DD93E0A999D9@...>
Message-ID: <200512201245.30129.silmariel@...>


Kneasy:
> Evocative things, names -  or they can be.
>
> Many  fans have spent long hours pondering the names with which JKR
> has graced her books. Long posts have resulted that detail the
> symbolic meanings of flower names and the like, and wondering if
> connections existing below the surface of the plot can be ferreted
> out by linking characters through the  names assigned to them.
>


Bus - thanks for sharing the experience. 

Names, unlikely  -

Sir Patrick Delaney - Roger Zelany
Sturgis Podmore -Theodore Sturgeon 
Emmeline Vance - Jack Vance

I read on TOL that Rookwook being named Algernon in the DProphet (OoP, 25) has 
been corrected in print.

With the plant for Bode, the mental state of the Longbottoms and Lockhart 
(btw, I assumed it was for Locked Heart), and the transformation in his life 
for the new werewolf child, I associated the theme with Flowers for Algernon.

Pity.

Elements -

I know 'we' are all on Tarot decks and Alchemy for matching the elements with 
the supossed (in the case of the wand for example) founder's relics. But is 
astrology (and sorry, but that's what I personally think the centaurs do when 
telling 'Mars is bright tonight', and calling it divination is quite of a 
joke) completely to be disregarded?

Just an approach, mainly because I'm not versed in astrology and I may be 
slipping miserably.

Gryffindor: Leo, Saggitaurus, Aries - Fire - The sword match those signs 
fairly well. Force, truth, courage, the surface signs of a chevalier, a 
warrior.

Hufflepuff: Tauro, Virgo, Capricornio - a Cup - Goddess Earth - the Cauldron 
of Rebirth. 

Ravenclaw: Gemini, Libra, Acuarius - Air - Wands - Words and mind translated 
to changes in the world.  

Slytherin: Pisces, Scorpius, Cancer - Water - The ring works both as power 
sign (kiss the Archbishop ring, please) and as the serpent biting his own 
tail. A great cut has been done to the school, because water is also empathy, 
imo. 

Unrelated Note -

It's me or Voldemort treats Peter as Sirius treated Kreacher?

Silmariel



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 20 16:09:47 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:09:47 +0000
Subject: 'Twas the week before Christmas...
Message-ID: <41795C96-1716-47CF-8A83-8E4BB4033AB3@...>

'Twas the festive season, a time for  decorations ... parties ...  
presents .... ringing cash registers .....

In the parlour of the The Madam Whiplash House of Correction and  
Negotiable Affection all was most definitely not sweetness and light  
as Hermione Whiplash (prop.) counted what little there was of last  
night's takings.

"Listen, Looney, only a half-wit entertains seventeen sawn-off runts  
dressed in green, whose vocabulary mostly consists of "Begorrah!" and  
"Mine's a Guiness," without getting suspicious about being paid with  
gold coins all of which have "Best Before Dawn" stamped on 'em. How  
bloody dim can you get?"

"I'm really sorry, Madam -  honest. But when one of them asked me if  
I  knew "Ossian's  Ride" I got flustered and my glasses steamed up."

"Gah! If it wasn't for the fact that we're rushed off our feet with  
all the office outings..... "

Luna (masquerading under the professional billing of Desiree  
Plumptious) shifted nervously from foot to foot. Madam  W. was not  
renowned for having a forgiving nature - quite the opposite in fact.  
Luna hoped that she wouldn't be demoted to being the fairy on top of  
the tree again this year; twelve days and nights - those pine needles  
made her itch, and the bowtruckles got  everywhere.

Madam brooded. Things were not going well. More money was going out  
than was coming in - refunds, compensation, hush money. Not good.

First there had been Ginny's 'Salome Spectacular', a sell-out  
performance of the Dance of the Seven Veils - only it turned out  
that  she'd been wearing eight plus thermal underwear. Bad enough.   
But when the customers complained Ginny'd got stroppy. "Next one to  
complain - and it'll be *his* head on the platter. Got it?"  There'd  
been a mad scramble for safety as the room positively coruscated with  
hexes and jinxes as she'd blasted spells around at random.

Then Kneasy had to stir from his booze-sodden slumber with his  
brilliant offering. Why not dress Grawp (commisionaire and bouncer)  
as Santa, plus reindeer and sleigh, and he could do the valet parking  
for broomsticks in festive mode. Only no-one told Grawp he shouldn't  
eat the reindeer. Using the broomsticks as toothpicks was just the  
icing on the cake.

Now this from Luna. The tree? No. Not  this time. She toyed idly with  
her wand - the notorious 'Pacifier'.
"Luna, I think you'd make a wonderful Bunny-Girl"
  *Zap!*
She stared down at the quivering white rodent.
"Now hop along to the kitchen before I decide that rabbit's foot  
lucky charms are due to make a comeback."

In the corner Crankshaft perked up, his evil yellow eyes alight with  
anticipation. He liked helpless, fluffy little creatures. Most of all  
he liked them for breakfast. Salivating slightly, he slipped silently  
out of his basket and stalked towards the kitchen.

"Mistress?" It was Droopy, the liberated House-Elf.
"What?"
"Mistress .... about Christmas Day," he mumbled.
"No, no, no. Definitely not. I gave you a day off only three years  
ago. You think I'm going to ruin my nails peeling potatoes when I pay  
you do do it? Think again, sunshine. There's thirty for Christmas  
lunch, seven courses, and the first had better be on the table at 3pm  
sharp. By the time you've washed up, produced supper and cleared up  
after the evening party it'll be time to cook breakfast. It's about  
time you learned, my lad - when you're free you have to *earn* a  
living. No free ride, no free lunch."
"Thank you, Mistress," muttered Droopy despondently as he shuffled  
off to lick the stove clean.

"Now ... how can I increase the cash-flow," wondered Madame. Her eyes  
fell on the Pensieve carefully placed under the window. Any thief  
breaking in was treated to an action-replay of what happened to the  
last burglar Hermy got her hands on. Even she fast-forwarded through  
the more extreme bits.

"I wonder if Rita is in the market for some 'swish and tell'  
exposees? Let's have a look at what's in the files."
She touched the surface with her wand and - the lights went out, the  
doors and windows flew open, a howling gale rushed through the room  
and a sepulchral voice filled her ears:
"Hermione Granger? Currently trading under the name of Madam  
Whiplash? You will be visited by three spirits......"

Oh dear.




From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 21 02:43:30 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 02:43:30 -0000
Subject: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry / Harry's Erised / what DD remembered
In-Reply-To: <do28gu+attp@...>
Message-ID: <doafgi+95af@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:


> Nora wrote in 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3488 :
> 
> << I think there's something particularly about blood ideology, its
> kind of essentialism, which is being singled out. I don't think
> Voldemort could have built what he did on the doctrine
> of "kill the stupid", for instance. :) >>
> 
> But there is a history of so-called religious leaders doing it with
> 'kill the unbelievers! kill the sinners!'

Of course there is.  But that isn't what's being presented to us in 
the books--'unbelievers' with the possibility of conversion (or 
sinners who can atone) creates a different dynamic than the appeal to 
old authority (and the opportunity of the advancement of those 
meeting certain criteria) that we're seeing in the books.  Hence my 
objections to the flattening "oh, there are soo many kinds of bigotry 
and prejudice" line.

-Nora takes a line of specificity, in this case






From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 21 10:07:22 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:07:22 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry / Harry's Erised / what DD remembered
In-Reply-To: <doafgi+95af@...>
References: <doafgi+95af@...>
Message-ID: <200512211107.22075.silmariel@...>


> -Nora takes a line of specificity, in this case

Of course once you said /why/ you took a specific approach the discussion 
about 'it's the same - it is not' was over, but that doesn't prevent us 
chatters to go on a little with the theme, not looking for answers so not 
specifically, just commenting. 

I thought

Pippin in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3494

<<Voldemort's armies come from the communities of the downtrodden,
the Giants and the werewolves, and from the dementors, who are
created by suffering and misery, not by racial separatism.>>

<snip>

was an answer based of specifics regarding concrete canon, not general 'we are 
just rambling' talk. I don't find any reply to that points, that's where the 
discussion went on karma retribution and Draco.

Anyway, from the 'not looking for predictions' point I think we won't hurt 
anyone by keep rambling. But back to Pippin's message and specificy, where 
starts and ends WW blood ideology? are we to ignore the groups/species under 
Voldemort's command? what part slavery plays?

Silmariel



From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 21 15:08:06 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:08:06 -0000
Subject: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry / Harry's Erised / what DD remembered
In-Reply-To: <200512211107.22075.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dobr4m+jopj@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> 
wrote:
>
> Pippin in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3494
> 
> <<Voldemort's armies come from the communities of the downtrodden,
> the Giants and the werewolves, and from the dementors, who are
> created by suffering and misery, not by racial separatism.>>
> 
> <snip>
> 
> was an answer based of specifics regarding concrete canon, not 
> general 'we are just rambling' talk. I don't find any reply to that 
> points, that's where the discussion went on karma retribution and 
> Draco.

Okay, here we go.

I find it a little hard to class the Giants unproblematically as 
the 'downtrodden', given their fundamental violent nature (something 
many a listie has brought up in the discussion of why Grawp was both 
such a bad idea and an awful plot point.)  Werewolves--a little.  I 
must admit that my perception of Pippin's agenda colors my perception 
of her argument of this point, too. :)  While I do see the theme of 
werewolf persecution running through the books, I see it as a fairly 
minor theme.  If I represent her correctly, she believes that this is 
a fundamental theme feeding into the ultimate revelation of ESE!
Lupin, which is going to be a major BANG! of book seven (and help 
clear some of poor Snapeykin's name, too).  I don't see it as having 
been given that much structural weight.  It's not even, IMO, as 
emphasized as SPEW.

> But back to Pippin's message and specificy, where starts and ends 
> WW blood ideology? are we to ignore the groups/species under  
> Voldemort's command? what part slavery plays?

I've argued before, elsewhere, lost in the mists of time, that there 
seems to be a connection (although not an *exclusive* one) between 
pureblood ideology and the Dark Arts, and the attitudes towards the 
non-human seem to connect from there.  It works like this:

IF you believe in the pureblood ideology
THEN you are essentially superior to other beings
THEN no form of magical power should be off-limits to you
AND you should be able to do with others what you want
INCLUDING both people and non-human magical creatures

I read a coherent theme of high-handedness towards the rights and 
persons of others considered inferior (Muggle-hunting, etc.) in the 
pureblood ideology, and I see the Dark Arts (which violate others or 
use them forcibly) to be in the same line.

But at least to me, the story of Voldemort is that it's discovering 
his heritage and thinking of it in a particular way that catalyzes 
his delving into various kinds of magic, and the entire project.  
YMMV, but that's how I see Rowling having laid it out.

-Nora watches the poor dog sit at the window and complain about the 
rain






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 21 17:29:07 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:29:07 -0000
Subject: The theme, was Re: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry /etc
In-Reply-To: <dobr4m+jopj@...>
Message-ID: <doc3d3+groi@...>

Nora:
> 
> Okay, here we go.
> 
> I find it a little hard to class the Giants unproblematically as 
> the 'downtrodden', given their fundamental violent nature (something 
> many a listie has brought up in the discussion of why Grawp was both 
> such a bad idea and an awful plot point.)  

Pippin:
Giants turn violent when they're cooped up and mistreated. If that
makes them 'fundamentally violent' then so are humans -- and
unicorns. 

Nora:
Werewolves--a little.  I  must admit that my perception of Pippin's 
agenda colors my perception  of her argument of this point, too. :)

Pippin:
Are you saying you're stuck on the idea of racism as the root
cause of oppression in the books rather than vice versa because you don't
want to lend support to ESE!Lupin? I'm flattered. :-)

We hear only a passing reference to SPEW in Book Six, so I don't
see how it's less emphasized than werewolf oppression, which
Lupin gives as the reason Grayback is able to recruit support,
and that Lupin has to keep his association with wizards secret.


Nora:
> But at least to me, the story of Voldemort is that it's discovering 
> his heritage and thinking of it in a particular way that catalyzes 
> his delving into various kinds of magic, and the entire project.  
> YMMV, but that's how I see Rowling having laid it out.


Pippin:
Voldemort's magic had "run away with him" to use Dumbledore's
phrase, before he even found out what it was. He was already
using it to oppress and terrorize others. He was already convinced
that he was special and different. He doesn't seem to care about
what his heritage was, only what power he could obtain by using it.
If he'd discovered that both his parents were Muggle, do you think 
he'd have dropped out of Hogwarts and decided to recruit an
army of Muggles instead?


Pippin






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 21 19:59:32 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:59:32 -0000
Subject: X-post: *When* did Dumbledore die?
Message-ID: <docc74+risn@...>

After the Avada Kedavra on the tower,

Harry is paralysed by shock
Petrifies a Death Eater
Runs down the staircase
Struggles with Fenrir
Jinxes Amycus
Sprints past McGonagall
Stumbles over Neville
Hexes the enormous blond Death Eater
Skids around some corners
Hides behind a suit of armor
Races down the staircase
Reaches the grounds
Runs all the way to the gate
Fights with Snape
Helps Hagrid put out the fire "until the last flame was extinguished."

Give it fifteen minutes at least, maybe even a half an hour.

After all that he reaches Dumbledore's body
There's a trickle of blood from the mouth. We've argued
a lot over what could have caused it and that's JKR's
genius. Because what we've all missed is this:

It was fresh enough to wipe away. 


Corroborating canon comes from chapter 8, where the
much more copious bleeding from Harry's broken nose 
has dried by the time Harry reaches the Great Hall.
Hermione needs a spell to siphon it off.

Harry's nose bleeds again as he's fighting with the
Death Eaters, and JKR *doesn't* tell us what happened to
to the blood this time, but clearly something did, because 
Harry tells Ginny he's not hurt and she doesn't say
"but you're bleeding." 


Dumbledore could have had magic enough to 
slow himself even without his wand. We know that 
wandless, untrained Tom Riddle was able to get Billy Stubbs's 
rabbit up into the rafters.

The odd angle of his arms and legs, even broken bones,
could have been caused by convulsions. Dumbledore
died of the poison, IMO, some ten or twenty minutes 
after he'd fallen from the tower. He may have been
conscious long enough to open the locket, he may
have decided not to call for aid in order to preserve
Snape's cover and keep the vow from going into effect,
or because his first priority was to see that Snape and
Harry got the Death Eaters out of the school. Any
way you slice it, neither of them is a murderer in this
scenario. Death by misadventure.

Pippin






From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 21 21:51:34 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:51:34 -0000
Subject: X-post: *When* did Dumbledore die?
In-Reply-To: <docc74+risn@...>
Message-ID: <docip6+ppqg@...>

Pippin:
> Give it fifteen minutes at least, maybe even a half an hour.
> 
> After all that he reaches Dumbledore's body
> There's a trickle of blood from the mouth. We've argued
> a lot over what could have caused it and that's JKR's
> genius. Because what we've all missed is this:
> 
> It was fresh enough to wipe away. 


Perhaps he's on Warfarin?
Or perhaps the potion had anti-coagulant properties?

IIRC, there's a Peter Wimsey mystery (can't remember the title off-
hand) in which Sayers throws in an enormous red herring regarding 
bleeding and it turns out the victim was a haemophiliac. Though I 
doubt Dumbledore was as he was ready enough to use his own blood in 
the cave.

My gut feeling has always been that this trickle of blood is just set-
dressing and has no real significance. JKR manages to lose whole 
years in her character time lines; I think she could lose 15 minutes 
easily enough. 

Your theory undoubtedly makes sense, but I don't want JKR to provide 
that kind of get-out for Snape. Obviously I hope there will be one, 
but one that involves mitigation for his actually having killed 
Dumbledore, rather than one that makes me feel that I've been cheated.

~Eloise






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 01:34:29 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:34:29 -0000
Subject: The theme, was Re: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry /etc
In-Reply-To: <doc3d3+groi@...>
Message-ID: <docvr5+l0ui@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
>
> We hear only a passing reference to SPEW in Book Six, so I don't
> see how it's less emphasized than werewolf oppression, which
> Lupin gives as the reason Grayback is able to recruit support,
> and that Lupin has to keep his association with wizards secret.

Yes, but it hasn't been nearly as strong a theme throughout the 
books.  We get the setup for the house-elf situation with Dobby in 
CoS, we get more revelations about the system in GoF with Hermione's 
opening crusade, we have Kreacher at the middle of a plot, we have 
Dumbledore making explicit references to the destruction of a false 
representation of wizardly comradery with house-elves, and we have 
the house-elves as significant players in the plot several times.

I don't see that much evidence pointing to werewolf oppression, which 
shows up first in PoA and does raise its head at least a little many 
times that Lupin is mentioned.  But his page time from PoA on has 
been pretty minimal.  I know it's supposed to be the grand motivating 
issue for Lupin's extreme eeeevil, and if that happens (if) maybe it 
will make more sense in retrospect.  Not betting on it.

> Pippin:
> Voldemort's magic had "run away with him" to use Dumbledore's
> phrase, before he even found out what it was. He was already
> using it to oppress and terrorize others. He was already convinced
> that he was special and different. He doesn't seem to care about
> what his heritage was, only what power he could obtain by using it.
> If he'd discovered that both his parents were Muggle, do you think 
> he'd have dropped out of Hogwarts and decided to recruit an
> army of Muggles instead?

No, because you can't do what he does with Muggles.  But I'm still 
thinking of his reaction to his heritage, finding out it was *Mummy* 
who was magical and the like.  I don't think we can just go "Oh, he 
wanted power and he'd look for it any which way"; I think his 
knowledge of and conception of his heritage has shaped his specific 
actions, and in a way which speaks to some degree of True Belief, not 
just expediency.  Hence picking Harry as the threat, the 'boy like 
him'--that only obtains if he does believe in those criteria, after 
all.

-Nora fends off the attention-seeking dog running around the house






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 01:38:31 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:38:31 -0000
Subject: X-post: *When* did Dumbledore die?
In-Reply-To: <docip6+ppqg@...>
Message-ID: <dod02n+9ep3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson" 
<eloiseherisson at a...> wrote:

> Eloise:
> 
> Your theory undoubtedly makes sense, but I don't want JKR to provide 
> that kind of get-out for Snape. Obviously I hope there will be one, 
> but one that involves mitigation for his actually having killed 
> Dumbledore, rather than one that makes me feel that I've been cheated.

While I can see various get-outs for Snape from an actual killing (but 
it's not my preferred option, but as if that matters in the long run), 
I agree with the fundamental objection.  As ingenious as Pippin's 
explanation is, I want to ask: why?  Why is it so important that 
Dumbledore have not died from Snape's AK?  Is all this explanation 
necessary to keep him clean and pristine--what purpose does this serve 
in the story?

I suppose it means a different type of emotional ringer for Harry, but 
it seems (to repeat myself) to defang the pathos and intensity and the 
BANG of the ending of the book.

-Nora further fends off the very persistent dog, who needs a bath, too






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 02:15:11 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 02:15:11 -0000
Subject: X-post: *When* did Dumbledore die?
In-Reply-To: <dod02n+9ep3@...>
Message-ID: <dod27f+qssi@...>


> > Eloise:
> > 
> > Your theory undoubtedly makes sense, but I don't want JKR to provide 
> > that kind of get-out for Snape. Obviously I hope there will be one, 
> > but one that involves mitigation for his actually having killed 
> > Dumbledore, rather than one that makes me feel that I've been cheated.

Nora:
> While I can see various get-outs for Snape from an actual killing (but 
> it's not my preferred option, but as if that matters in the long run), 
> I agree with the fundamental objection.  As ingenious as Pippin's 
> explanation is, I want to ask: why?  Why is it so important that 
> Dumbledore have not died from Snape's AK?  Is all this explanation 
> necessary to keep him clean and pristine--what purpose does this serve 
> in the story?
> 
Pippin:
Because the real villain is ESE!Lupin. <veg> I admit, innocent Snape doesn't
work so well without guilty Lupin, but with guilty Lupin it works very
well indeed.

Snape is the Wrong Man, like Hagrid,  Morfin, Hokey and Sirius.

ESE!Lupin has way more BANG and pathos and intensity than any 
flavor of Murderer!Snape, plus it gives Harry a chance to show 
whether he really has the Right Stuff and surpass Dumbledore,
to overturn the lie of the golden fountain by being willing to  recognize 
evil where one wants to see only good.

The blood is far too prominently placed to be an unintentional red 
herring. And  lots of major clues have looked like
window-dressing at first: Quirrell's turban, Riddle's middle name,
Scabbers's missing toe, stolen boomslang skin and the vanishing
cabinet to mention just a few.

Pippin







From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 03:35:10 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 03:35:10 -0000
Subject: Filk: The Dark Lords Song
Message-ID: <dod6te+3eil@...>

What Harry Potter Christmas collection would be complete without the 
Dark Lords Song

The Dark Lords Song
 
Sung to the tune of "The Christmas Song" by Torme and Wells
New words by Randy Estes

Dark Marks glowing on our exposed arms
Someone misplaced Master's nose
Hanging out by an old muggle grave
And folks dressed up in masks and robes

Everybody knows some flesh and blood and stolen bone
Will help make Master feel alright
Harry Potter with his scar all aglow
Will find it hard to sleep tonight

Harry knows that Voldy's on his way
He's goaded lots of former
Servants to obey
And Barty Crouch's son is gonna spy
As Mister Moody with the magical eye.

And so I'm offering this simple phrase 
To wizards not watching for You Know Who
Although its been said
Many times, many ways
Voldemort's after you!


Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All rights reserved.









From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 04:44:59 2005
From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 04:44:59 -0000
Subject: 'Twas the week before Christmas...
In-Reply-To: <41795C96-1716-47CF-8A83-8E4BB4033AB3@...>
Message-ID: <dodb0b+kfc6@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:


<snip>
 
> "Now ... how can I increase the cash-flow," wondered Madame. Her 
eyes  
> fell on the Pensieve carefully placed under the window. Any thief  
> breaking in was treated to an action-replay of what happened to 
the  
> last burglar Hermy got her hands on. Even she fast-forwarded 
through  
> the more extreme bits.
> 
> "I wonder if Rita is in the market for some 'swish and tell'  
> exposees? Let's have a look at what's in the files."
> She touched the surface with her wand and - the lights went out, 
the  
> doors and windows flew open, a howling gale rushed through the 
room  
> and a sepulchral voice filled her ears:
> "Hermione Granger? Currently trading under the name of Madam  
> Whiplash? You will be visited by three spirits......"
> 
> Oh dear.


And then....?

Wonderful stuff, Barry.  I've missed M. Whiplash so please don't 
leave us hanging.

Jo S., on tenterhooks 






From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 04:51:04 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 04:51:04 -0000
Subject: X-post: *When* did Dumbledore die?
In-Reply-To: <dod27f+qssi@...>
Message-ID: <dodbbo+v2rt@...>

Pippin:
> The blood is far too prominently placed to be an unintentional red 
> herring. And  lots of major clues have looked like
> window-dressing at first: Quirrell's turban, Riddle's middle name,
> Scabbers's missing toe, stolen boomslang skin and the vanishing
> cabinet to mention just a few.

Jen: The problem is it's difficult to tot up the number of red 
herrings we have so far because we don't want to close the door on 
possible clues. All the things you mentioned above and more have 
turned out to be significant for the plot. I'm guessing twice as 
many prominently placed objects, creatures, names etc. will prove to 
have no meaning other than JKR providing atmosphere and interest to 
the story.

There was a *lot* of blood in HBP: Slughorn's faked death scene, the 
glasses of bloodred wine, Sectumsempra cuts, all the talk in the 
cave of the value of blood and Voldemort's blood payment, and then 
the scenes with the DE's at Hogwarts--blood everywhere! Harry slips 
on blood and follows blood trails through the castle and bleeds 
himself to mention a few things. 

I think the fact that blood=life-force in Rowling's world is part of 
the reason why the increase in blood, as well as a need to visually 
show the stakes are getting higher.

So in the case of Dumbledore the small drip of blood seemed very 
symbolic to me, the life-force drained out. It reminded me of 
Dumbledore telling Harry in OOTP that Voldemort had shed Lily's 
blood. Lily, Dumbledore and Harry are completely different from 
Voldemort in that all are willing to shed their blood if called on 
to do so, they know it strengthens rather than weakens.

Jen






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 10:29:35 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:29:35 -0000
Subject: 'Twas the week before Christmas...
In-Reply-To: <dodb0b+kfc6@...>
Message-ID: <dodv6f+onfn@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" <jmmears at c...> wrote:
> 
> And then....?
> 
> Wonderful stuff, Barry.  I've missed M. Whiplash so please don't 
> leave us hanging.
> 
> Jo S., on tenterhooks
>

Must admit to twinges of guilt at neglecting her for so long, she
allows more scope for character assassination than most of my
other stuff. And she is one of my favourites.

The story will be continued, but I've over-estimated the amount
of free time available before the seasonal gut-busting climax hits.
Still, let's see what  can be arranged.

Kneasy






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 15:28:41 2005
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:28:41 -0700
Subject: Have A Very Un-Weasley Christmas!
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B92@...>

Given as is only three days to Christmas, may I take the moment to gripe
about Christmas in the Potterverse? Or to be fair, Christmas according
to the Weasleys. The whole thing seems to me a terrible flaw in JKR's
presentation of the Weasley's as the overbearing tightly-knit large
family. The last two Christmases have somewhat corrected that problem,
but the ones before were the most miserable affairs ever, and not
terribly consistent with either the purported vices or virtues of the
Weasley family. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley seem not at all interested in
seeing their children for more than two months in a year, and the
children seem curiously uninterested in seeing their parents any longer
as well. 

Sure, it's a boarding school story and sure historically people have put
up with and liked boarding school, but without Christmas holidays? The
Christmas in "Philosopher's Stone", which seemed to affection-starved
Harry so wonderful, reminds me of nothing so much as young Ebenezer
Scrooge's Christmases abandoned at school by a father who hated him. 

The oddest touch to this picture is that the Weasley attitude towards
Christmas can't be blamed - as so many other oddities can be - on the
venerable maxim, "Wizards are nutters." It's a rare few who don't
rejoice to be with family at Christmas, outside of the decidedly
attractive Yule Ball year. 

Brutus Scrimgeour really couldn't have imagined how doubly unnatural
forcing Percy over for Christmas was. It wasn't like the Weasley family
cared to get together much in Percy's experience. 

Eileen, finally delurking




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 15:31:14 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:31:14 -0000
Subject: X-post: *When* did Dumbledore die?
In-Reply-To: <dodbbo+v2rt@...>
Message-ID: <doegs2+6k3s@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> wrote:

> I think the fact that blood=life-force in Rowling's world is part of 
> the reason why the increase in blood, as well as a need to visually 
> show the stakes are getting higher.
> 
> So in the case of Dumbledore the small drip of blood seemed very 
> symbolic to me, the life-force drained out. It reminded me of 
> Dumbledore telling Harry in OOTP that Voldemort had shed Lily's 
> blood. Lily, Dumbledore and Harry are completely different from 
> Voldemort in that all are willing to shed their blood if called on 
> to do so, they know it strengthens rather than weakens.

Pippin:
It can be symbolic and still a clue. The sixth obstacle in PS/SS is a
*logic* puzzle, and I can't help believe that the sixth book  is too.
JKR is on record as worried that she made things too obvious, but
reassured that there are so many off the wall solutions out there.
Which means that the puzzle, whatever it is,  *can*  be solved.


Pippin






From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 15:54:49 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:54:49 -0000
Subject: FILK: Dumbledore's Army
Message-ID: <doei89+5edr@...>

Dumbledore's Army ? to the tune of the Folk Song Army, by Tom lehrer.
Dedicated to all those who thought the DA was a bit silly.


We are Dumbledore's Army,
Every one of us cares.
We all hate Slytherins, dark arts and Umbridge,
Unlike the rest of you squares.

There are your ordin'ry lessons, yeah,
But we regard `em with scorn,
The ***** who teaches gives no decent training,
Why she don't even care that her class makes us yawn.

If you feel dissatisfaction,
Hex your frustrations away.
Some people may prefer action,
But give me a secret club any old day.

The name don't have to be clever,
And it don't matter if you get your headmaster fired through 
careless overconfidence.
It sounds less childish if you call it an "Army",
Though you've done nowt more constructive since.

Remember the crisis with Lockheart?
All the nonsense he `taught' was a hoax,
Though none of us managed to get him thrown out,
We had all the good jokes.

So come and join Dumbledore's Army,
We're even having Chri-i-stmas drinks,
For the fight against Slytherins, dark arts and Umbridge,
Ready, aim, jinx!







From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 16:22:40 2005
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:22:40 -0700
Subject: FILK: God rest you merry hippogriffs
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B93@...>

Courtesy of Sirius Black, a decidedly cynical Christmas carol

 

God rest you merry hippogriffs.

May no one you dismay.

Remember, don't attack students

Whatever they may say.

But if you do, we'll bust you out

To go on holiday.

Oh forget about the safety of our school, 

Safety's not cool.
Oh forget about the safety of our school.

 

In Hagrid's time in Gryffindor,

Two monsters roamed the place.

The one even his master

Would not dare look in the face. 

The other was all right because

T'was Hagrid's special case.

Oh forget about the safety of our school,

Break any rule.

Oh forget about the safety our school.

 

We keep a werewolf on the staff,

A giant on the sly.

The Whomping Willow's fine, 

He only *nearly* lost his eye.

I don't know what the fuss can be

That children sometimes die.

Oh forget about the safety of our school

Have a great Yule.

Oh forget about the safety of our school.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 18:55:12 2005
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:55:12 -0000
Subject: belated introduction
Message-ID: <doesqg+l1tp@...>

Well, I really ought to (belatedly) introduce myself. I'm Alec from 
England (Pharnabazus on LJ) and was invited to join by Eloise a while 
back. And I've been lurking here since then - but I will try and be 
more active now! Also more active on my LJ, which has been almost 
silent for months!






From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 18:58:24 2005
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:58:24 -0000
Subject: FILK: God rest you merry hippogriffs
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B93@...>
Message-ID: <doet0g+6f48@...>

LOL

You really must make that long post of yours you were planning about 
Dumbledore some time! And how he's really not evil after all, in 
spite of appearances! 

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Courtesy of Sirius Black, a decidedly cynical Christmas carol
> 
>  
> 
> God rest you merry hippogriffs.
> 
> May no one you dismay.
> 
> Remember, don't attack students
> 
> Whatever they may say.
> 
> But if you do, we'll bust you out
> 
> To go on holiday.
> 
> Oh forget about the safety of our school, 
> 
> Safety's not cool.
> Oh forget about the safety of our school.
> 
>  
> 
> In Hagrid's time in Gryffindor,
> 
> Two monsters roamed the place.
> 
> The one even his master
> 
> Would not dare look in the face. 
> 
> The other was all right because
> 
> T'was Hagrid's special case.
> 
> Oh forget about the safety of our school,
> 
> Break any rule.
> 
> Oh forget about the safety our school.
> 
>  
> 
> We keep a werewolf on the staff,
> 
> A giant on the sly.
> 
> The Whomping Willow's fine, 
> 
> He only *nearly* lost his eye.
> 
> I don't know what the fuss can be
> 
> That children sometimes die.
> 
> Oh forget about the safety of our school
> 
> Have a great Yule.
> 
> Oh forget about the safety of our school.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 19:47:21 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:47:21 -0000
Subject: What if Snape was at the Peter/Sirius showdown?
Message-ID: <doevs9+8m4k@...>

We've speculated that Snape might have been with Voldemort when he
went to kill James and Lily. We've speculated that he might have been at
the Graveyard in GoF. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone speculate
that Snape could have been present at the big showdown between Sirius
and Peter. If so, he could have been taken in like everyone else. But
he wouldn't be able to reveal that he'd been there without blowing
his cover. 


If Snape was actually there, it explains a lot about why he
didn't want to believe Sirius, and why Dumbledore was so convinced of
Sirius's guilt that he never questioned it until Sirius escaped. Even
if Dumbledore watched the scene through Snape's memories in the
Pensieve, it might not be possible to tell whose spell had made the
street blow up, given what we now know about non-verbal magic.
And unless you were looking for it, you might not even see Peter
turning into a rat.

It also sets up a very nice possible parallel with the Tower scene, where we
have another young wizard who would be very reluctant to think his
eyes had deceived him. 

It also adds another layer of meaning to Snape's question. "And does my evidence
count for nothing?" 

Thoughts?

Pippin






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 22 20:02:47 2005
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:02:47 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: FILK: God rest you merry hippogriffs
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64B28@...>

Alec:
>You really must make that long post of yours you were planning about 
>Dumbledore some time! And how he's really not evil after all, in 
>spite of appearances! 

The completely unheard of theory that Dumbledore Is Not Ever So Evil.
Should shock everyone. Why we might even have people who believe Lupin
is good one day!




From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 23 11:12:07 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:12:07 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] The theme, was Re: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry /etc
In-Reply-To: <docvr5+l0ui@...>
References: <docvr5+l0ui@...>
Message-ID: <200512231212.07889.silmariel@...>


> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...>
> wrote:
> >
> > We hear only a passing reference to SPEW in Book Six, so I don't
> > see how it's less emphasized than werewolf oppression, which
> > Lupin gives as the reason Grayback is able to recruit support,
> > and that Lupin has to keep his association with wizards secret.
>

Nora:
> Yes, but it hasn't been nearly as strong a theme throughout the
> books.  We get the setup for the house-elf situation with Dobby in
> CoS, we get more revelations about the system in GoF with Hermione's
> opening crusade, we have Kreacher at the middle of a plot, we have
> Dumbledore making explicit references to the destruction of a false
> representation of wizardly comradery with house-elves, and we have
> the house-elves as significant players in the plot several times.
>
> I don't see that much evidence pointing to werewolf oppression, which
> shows up first in PoA and does raise its head at least a little many
> times that Lupin is mentioned.  But his page time from PoA on has
> been pretty minimal.  I know it's supposed to be the grand motivating
> issue for Lupin's extreme eeeevil, and if that happens (if) maybe it
> will make more sense in retrospect.  Not betting on it.

I may see it as a strong point because I don't separate SPEW screen time from 
werewolf screen time, and I add it to the giants', the centaurs', the 
goblins' and the vampires. The fountain at the MoM links Wizards and other 
species in general, IMO. 

Taken together, they make a strong presence, I think is quite impossible to 
give each one of those groups the lenght they deserve and maintain a readable 
series of novels, but making short trips to each one when it is not 
unplot-wise keeps the theme fairly well.

I didn't like Gwap, as many in the fandom, but that's one of the things I 
wouldn't change in the book, I'm with Pippin that the whole situation the 
giants had been trown in would make a bunch of humans (or unicorns) go the 
same way.

Silmariel



From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 23 12:05:39 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:05:39 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: X-post: *When* did Dumbledore die?
In-Reply-To: <dodbbo+v2rt@...>
References: <dodbbo+v2rt@...>
Message-ID: <200512231305.39889.silmariel@...>


Jen Reese:
> There was a *lot* of blood in HBP: Slughorn's faked death scene, the
> glasses of bloodred wine, Sectumsempra cuts, all the talk in the
> cave of the value of blood and Voldemort's blood payment, and then
> the scenes with the DE's at Hogwarts--blood everywhere! Harry slips
> on blood and follows blood trails through the castle and bleeds
> himself to mention a few things.

Not opposing the simbolism, and blood being used to raise the stakes, so much 
blood details also means we wouldn't take notice of DD's blood as something 
to consider.

I considered the anticoagulant venom, but... the only reference in canon that 
I can compare is Katie bleeding in the trainings, and still I don't get the 
point (authorial intention, I mean) of making the venom in the cave 
anticoagulating. The scene of the tower is pretty fishy as it already is.

Pippin:
>The odd angle of his arms and legs, even broken bones,
>could have been caused by convulsions. Dumbledore
>died of the poison, IMO, some ten or twenty minutes 
>after he'd fallen from the tower. He may have been
>conscious long enough to open the locket, he may
>have decided not to call for aid in order to preserve
>Snape's cover and keep the vow from going into effect,
>or because his first priority was to see that Snape and
>Harry got the Death Eaters out of the school. Any
>way you slice it, neither of them is a murderer in this
>scenario. Death by misadventure.

Don't know if I'm reading it correctly, but in ch 21 I think Harry doesn't 
cancel orders on following Draco, and Kreacher is very... independent for a 
house elf, he went to Cissy in the last book as soon as he was given a 
chance, so I don't see past him to be in the tower. 

No, the barrier doesn't help. I've already seen a not-every-being barrier in 
the cave, so there's a good chance that a house elf is not considered as 
blockable item, or he could use that misterious house elf magic we don't know 
exactly how it works but seems like apparation inside the castle.

Kreacher having been at Regulus' service also doesn't help to discard him.

Silmariel



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 23 11:51:17 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:51:17 +0000
Subject: 'Twas etc. part 2
Message-ID: <E19E0FCE-9D67-4C8F-9B95-AA85008AA4AD@...>

The story so far...

"Hermione Granger? Currently trading under the name of Madam  
Whiplash? You will be visited by three spirits..."

Now read on....

Madam's lips compressed and her eyes narrowed. "If you think that I'm  
gonna allow that bloody Poltergeist in here again, you've got another  
think coming," snarled her Ladyship. "We had enough trouble last  
time. Tassels are not, repeat not, supposed to zoom all over the  
place like golden snitches -  they're supposed to stay put. And a  
rubber duck isn't supposed to behave like that either - the girls've  
point-blank refused to perform the 'Take Me To Your Leda'  tableau  
ever since."

"No, no, nothing like that," interjected the voice hurriedly. "This  
is about you, to  turn you into a better person."

"Oh, really? Just what are you implying, sunshine? Any more of that  
kind of talk  and you'll find yourself voicing your opinions out of  
the back end of a dysenteric dragon."

"Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. Look, I've gotta go; I've  
got to do the voice-over for another of Sybil's funny turns. Expect  
the first spirit in ten minutes... maybe twenty... say half an hour  
tops. It's the busy time of year," he added apologetically. "Bye, now!"

Hermione paced up and down distractedly, muttering to herself.  
"Better person, indeed. What cheek! I'm already better than this  
lot." She glanced at the pictures on the wall; Nefertiti ( plus added  
squint), Morgan le Fay (protruding teeth - a result of the swap Hermy  
had done back in her Hogwart's days); Helen of Troy - with zits,  
("All that Greece-y food," observed Hermione).

The Pensieve began to bubble gently and a glowing mist formed above  
the surface, gradually solidifying to form a vaguely recognisable face.

"L-let us look at your p-past," said a voice "and s-see if w-w-we can  
f-find out w-where it all w-went wrong."

"You!" breathed Hermione, "Quirrell!"

"Y-yes. I am the awful example, g-good overcome b-by evil."

"Lose the stutter, matey. We all know that was a put-on. And nobody   
believes this "good overcome by evil" tale either. Load of rubbish.  
And don't try that old "I was Imperio'ed" clap-trap, those that are  
obey their orders, they don't debate 'em like you did. Your story's  
got more holes in it than Droopy's vest. Now push off - I'm busy."

"I c-cannot. T-the supervisor's watching and i-if I  don't meet m-my  
targets I'll be d-demoted to being a cold draught in a s-spooky mansion.
Now t-touch the surface with your w-wand."

She did so and a kaleidoscopic stream of memories erupted: aged 4,  
financing her 'My Little Pony' addiction by selling candid snaps of  
the milkman and Mrs Johnson next door; at 8 prising a beloved doll  
from the hands of her best  friend - "We're playing Bar-B-Qs -  and  
it's Barbie who gets cued"; aged 10, throwing a tantrum in the  
library when "Of Human Bondage" and "Fanny By Gaslight" weren't quite  
what she expected; torching the English teacher's car for giving her  
only 97% .....

"Ah! Stop! Stop! It's awful! Terrible! How could I?" Hermione was on  
her knees, hiding her face in her hands.

"Y-you see?"

"Yes! Yes! That hair! The teeth! Those shoes! And pink plastic  
simpering ponies! Arrgh! If anyone sees that playback I'll die of  
embarrassment!"

There was a pause.

"I t-think we need to work at t-this a bit more c-constructively. The  
next s-spirit will be along m-momentarily."

With that his features blurred and dissipated. Plinkety-plonk music  
could be heard, "Thank you for holding. Maintaining customer  
satisfaction is very import-"

"Hermione?"

"Oh, for Merlin's sake! Not you?"

"Yes. It is I - Sirius Black."


Uh-oh.
Will the Godfather make her an offer she can't refuse?
Tune in to the next revelatory episode!






From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 23 18:20:27 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:20:27 -0000
Subject: Filk: The Dark Lords Song
In-Reply-To: <dod6te+3eil@...>
Message-ID: <dohf5b+8ijv@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <estesrandy at y...> 
wrote:
>
> What Harry Potter Christmas collection would be complete without 
the 
> Dark Lords Song
> 
> The Dark Lords Song
>  
> Sung to the tune of "The Christmas Song" by Torme and Wells
> New words by Randy Estes
> 
> Dark Marks glowing on our exposed arms
> Someone misplaced Master's nose
> Hanging out by an old muggle grave
> And folks dressed up in masks and robes
> 
> Everybody knows some flesh and blood and stolen bone
> Will help make Master feel alright
> Harry Potter with his scar all aglow
> Will find it hard to sleep tonight
> 
> Harry knows that Voldy's on his way
> He's goaded lots of former
> Servants to obey
> And Barty Crouch's son is gonna spy
> As Mister Moody with the magical eye.
> 
> And so I'm offering this simple phrase 
> To wizards not watching for You Know Who
> Although its been said
> Many times, many ways
> Voldemort's after you!
> 
> 
> Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All rights reserved.
>

I love you, Randy.  Will you marry me?  Oh wait, I'm already 
married.  And so are you.  Besides which, I just love you for your 
filks -- it wouldn't work out.

Your filks are great.  I don't drop by here often, but when I do, 
it's what I look for.  Have you thought about making them into a 
genuine, full-length musical?  (I'm serious.)

--Joywitch







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 23 18:52:18 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:52:18 -0000
Subject: The theme, was Re: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry /etc
In-Reply-To: <docvr5+l0ui@...>
Message-ID: <dohh12+g4u9@...>

Nora: 
> Yes, but it hasn't been nearly as strong a theme throughout the 
> books.  We get the setup for the house-elf situation with Dobby in 
> CoS, we get more revelations about the system in GoF with Hermione's 
> opening crusade, we have Kreacher at the middle of a plot, we have 
> Dumbledore making explicit references to the destruction of a false 
> representation of wizardly comradery with house-elves, and we have 
> the house-elves as significant players in the plot several times.

Pippin:
I don't see each kind of intolerance being presented as a separate issue. 
All forms of intolerance are  shown as cowardice. The characters fear, 
as well they should, the potential for violence in  their fellow beings, 
and they want a magic formula which tells them who they can trust. 
They've put this desire  into action with the House Elves. 

But even the magically bound House Elves aren't safe. Three out of the four 
named  Elves failed their masters, and the other one was blamed for  doing 
so. The wizards, like Voldemort, cannot escape the fear of those whom 
they've enslaved and mistreated. The only real way to manage the potential 
for violence is not to give people reason to use it -- which means, 
paradoxically, allowing those whom we fear their freedom. 

If there is a signifier of trustworthiness in JKR's world, it's courage.
But courage, like magic, though it usually shows itself at a young age,
can blossom later in life, or it can wither if unsupported. 

 Nora:
> I don't see that much evidence pointing to werewolf oppression, which 
> shows up first in PoA and does raise its head at least a little many 
> times that Lupin is mentioned.  But his page time from PoA on has 
> been pretty minimal.  I know it's supposed to be the grand motivating 
> issue for Lupin's extreme eeeevil, and if that happens (if) maybe it 
> will make more sense in retrospect.  Not betting on it.

Pippin:
If Lupin's treachery is supposed to come as a surprise, then JKR has to
indicate the motivation for it without giving him away. That means
she has to explore it through other characters.  If you are right, and
Snape's grand motivation is racism, then she's done the same thing
with him, because Snape's racism barely raises its head.

Nora:
> No, because you can't do what he does with Muggles.

Pippin:
?!!! ::boggles:: Of course you can. Or are you saying  there aren't
any Muggle dictators in JKR's world.

Nora:
  But I'm still  thinking of his reaction to his heritage, finding out it 
was *Mummy*  who was magical and the like.  I don't think we can just go "Oh, he 
wanted power and he'd look for it any which way"; I think his 
knowledge of and conception of his heritage has shaped his specific 
actions, and in a way which speaks to some degree of True Belief, not 
just expediency.  Hence picking Harry as the threat, the 'boy like 
him'--that only obtains if he does believe in those criteria, after 
all.

Pippin:
Huh?
I thought Dumbledore said just the opposite, that if Voldemort had
True Belief in the pureblood philosophy, he'd have thought Neville, 
being a pure-blood, was more likely to have the power to vanquish
him.  Voldemort shows he understands that the pureblood nonsense
is just that, by going after Harry.

Pippin






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 24 10:59:58 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 10:59:58 +0000
Subject: 'Twas etc. part 3
Message-ID: <D8D03662-4D47-4367-9B2D-EE80F5C773F4@...>

"Oh, for Merlin's sake! Not you?"

"Yes. It is I - Sirius Black.
I bring a warning that being a brain-box and sexy-beast will not save  
you from an awful fate!"

"Come off it! Brain-box? You? I've seen more intelligent milk  
puddings. As for sexy - huh. Get a lot of customers like you - all  
gob and no gobble, if you know what I mean."

"Er, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about . I'm here  
to show you the misery you are inflicting on others through your  
thoughtlessness and vindictiveness. Just as I once did. Look!"

More vapour formed, then thickened and began to glow. An image formed.

A cell in Azkaban. A red-haired figure is trying to carve a  
broomstick out of the bed-frame using only a sharpened tooth-brush  
and the pin on a rusty 'SPEW' badge. "She needs me, she really does,"  
he mutters, "I only embezzled the money because she needed it. And  
the reward she got for turning me in... that helped her as well..."
In one corner a Dementor sniggers....

"It certainly pays to be honest," observed Madam, "and besides, he's  
a drip."

The Ministry. A few score of bedraggled figures, one wearing a  
placard "Will werk fer Mugles", besiege the Office for the Re- 
location of Liberated House-Elves. The door opens, "Vacancy for one  
-" is cut short as a deluge of diminutive bodies overwhelm him....

At St Mungo's, Healers confer.
"Frankly, I've never seen a curse like it. Have you?"
"Oddly enough, yes. Every quarter-of-an-hour she also gets a  
compulsion to apparate to Westminster and bash her head against Big  
Ben. What's this one called again?"
"Umbridge. Worked at the Ministry. Who's the other one?"
"We're not sure, but her face rang a bell..." He grinned. "There  
certainly appear to be striking similarities..."

Sirius sighed.
"Hermione, don't you see that it's wrong? Don't you are what people  
think about you?"

"You're a fine one to talk! And no, why should I worry? - I've got a  
good agent."

"Agent?"

"Yeah. Had to really, what with the films and such."

"Films? What films?"

"The ones about Harry and Voldemort and all that. Since your time, I  
expect."

"Am I in it?"

"Sure - you, me, Hogwarts.... Snape...."

"What!? That evil cadaverous scumbag? At least the Muggles will see  
what he's really like."

"This is where a really good agent comes in. Pity you haven't got  
one; too  late now. As it is, you look like a loony and Snape  
looks ... sexy."

There was a diminishing scream of anguish as the vapour sank back  
into the surface of the Pensieve.

Hermione smiled to herself, "Right, that's my good deed for the day.  
I  wonder who's next?"




From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 24 16:13:39 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:13:39 -0000
Subject: The theme, was Re: Ginny hexes / kinds of bigotry /etc
In-Reply-To: <dohh12+g4u9@...>
Message-ID: <dojs3j+q24i@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
> I don't see each kind of intolerance being presented as a separate 
> issue. 

I see them as having different manifestations and thus requiring 
different treatments, so I'm tending to specificity.  House-elves 
have a different situation than werewolves--we've gotten lots of 
hints that SPEW is onto something but Hermione is going about it 
wrong.  We've gotten very few hints of a solution to the werewolf 
problem, but the two are not completely equivalent.

> If you are right, and Snape's grand motivation is racism, then 
> she's done the same thing with him, because Snape's racism barely 
> raises its head.

I don't think his grand motivation is *racism* per se, although she's 
managed to mark at least young Snape with a brush that is so rarely 
used as to be exceptionally notable.

But we do have the continual impression of Snape as someone rather 
convinced of his own quality to the point of superiority, and if you 
buy the connections I would make between believing in pureblood 
ideology and the Dark Arts, and the mutual attitudes I think they 
share--there's a motivation for you.  Building frustration and 
resentment over the course of the books, unlanced tends to fester.
 
> Nora:
> > No, because you can't do what he does with Muggles.
> 
> Pippin:
> ?!!! ::boggles:: Of course you can. Or are you saying  there aren't
> any Muggle dictators in JKR's world.

You can't have the same kind of setup that Voldemort has with 
Muggles, because they can't teleport at will, etc.

> Pippin:
> Huh?
> I thought Dumbledore said just the opposite, that if Voldemort had
> True Belief in the pureblood philosophy, he'd have thought Neville, 
> being a pure-blood, was more likely to have the power to vanquish
> him.  Voldemort shows he understands that the pureblood nonsense
> is just that, by going after Harry.

Except that it shows that he does believe in the blood stuff as an 
indication of something, he goes for the child he thinks is most like 
himself.  I'm not saying that it's consistent at all, but it does 
seem to play into his thinking: I'm thinking about how he talks about 
Lily, and that he may have dismissed her precisely because of 'what' 
she was.  His loss, as we saw.

-Nora basks in the warm winter weather for another day







From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 25 02:32:01 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 18:32:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Filk: The Dark Lords Song
In-Reply-To: <dohf5b+8ijv@...>
Message-ID: <20051225023201.30405.qmail@...>

Joywitch,

Thanks so much for the compliment.  I have to tell you
about this song.  We went to Disney World on Friday
with the kids for just an end of the year family
celebration because we only live 2 hours away. 
Anyway, my oldest son, Brian and I were singing this
one on the train ride all around the park.  This
greatly annoyed his two younger brothers but it was
such fun!  I really liked this one too because I
always loved the original by Mel Torme.

Love to everyone at the Old Crowd.  Here's wishing you
a Merry Christmas!  I have really enjoyed the
insightful commentary on topics that I have so little
ability to comment on.  I always like to add my
irreverant comments and sing a song or too.  

As Carol Burnett would say "It's so nice we had this
time together just to have a laugh and sing a song. 
Seems we just get started and before you know it. 
Comes the time we have to say so long!"  The last line
does not yet apply thank goodness.

Merry Christmas and Happy new Year!

Red Eye Randy and the Gang

Brian (12), Steven(9), Matthew(6) and Carole

 \ /
 @@ 
 0'  and Rudolph





--- joywitch_m_curmudgeon <joym999 at ...> wrote:

> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy"
> <estesrandy at y...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > What Harry Potter Christmas collection would be
> complete without 
> the 
> > Dark Lords Song
> > 
> > The Dark Lords Song
> >  
> > Sung to the tune of "The Christmas Song" by Torme
> and Wells
> > New words by Randy Estes
> > 
> > Dark Marks glowing on our exposed arms
> > Someone misplaced Master's nose
> > Hanging out by an old muggle grave
> > And folks dressed up in masks and robes
> > 
> > Everybody knows some flesh and blood and stolen
> bone
> > Will help make Master feel alright
> > Harry Potter with his scar all aglow
> > Will find it hard to sleep tonight
> > 
> > Harry knows that Voldy's on his way
> > He's goaded lots of former
> > Servants to obey
> > And Barty Crouch's son is gonna spy
> > As Mister Moody with the magical eye.
> > 
> > And so I'm offering this simple phrase 
> > To wizards not watching for You Know Who
> > Although its been said
> > Many times, many ways
> > Voldemort's after you!
> > 
> > 
> > Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All rights
> reserved.
> >
> 
> I love you, Randy.  Will you marry me?  Oh wait, I'm
> already 
> married.  And so are you.  Besides which, I just
> love you for your 
> filks -- it wouldn't work out.
> 
> Your filks are great.  I don't drop by here often,
> but when I do, 
> it's what I look for.  Have you thought about making
> them into a 
> genuine, full-length musical?  (I'm serious.)
> 
> --Joywitch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



		
__________________________________________ 
Yahoo! DSL  Something to write home about. 
Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
dsl.yahoo.com 




From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 25 04:30:59 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 15:30:59 +1100
Subject: bugger
Message-ID: <20051225043059.GF21593@...>

Mrs Norris is just a cat.

Wormtail's silver paw is not for Lupin.

BUT

she hasn't scotched Imposter!Tonks yet...

-- 
Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.



From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 25 05:26:05 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 05:26:05 -0000
Subject: bugger
In-Reply-To: <20051225043059.GF21593@...>
Message-ID: <dolahd+amc5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewetoo at g...> wrote:
>
> Mrs Norris is just a cat.
> 
> Wormtail's silver paw is not for Lupin.

Don't forget that Petunia isn't magic and never will be.

Interesting tidbits for me:

Harry was 'obviously magical', which seems to imply that Petunia thus 
really would have known for sure that the kid was a wizard, contra an 
endless debate over on TOL.

Her comments about Lupin's exposure as a werewolf doing "irreparable 
damage to his prospects for a career in teaching" again make me 
wonder whether, in a different world, Lupin could have/would have 
resigned with his reputation intact.  Alas, given the "likes of 
Fenrir Greyback", things are not looking good for werewolves.  
Perhaps instead of ESE!Lupin, Heroic!Lupin will change society's 
views?

Who knows--may the interesting debunkings keep coming.

-Nora finds it time for all good dogs and persons to be in bed






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 25 12:09:54 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 12:09:54 -0000
Subject: 'Potter' seems like many other Pureblood names // why Voldie chose Harry
Message-ID: <dom26i+cfir@...>

Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3540 :

A wonderful reminiscence of a Night Bus conductor, and << no-one has
shown the slightest interest in the strangeness of the name Potter for
a pure-blood family. Or is it only me who thinks so? >>

There's a pureblood family named Black, and the descendents of Helga
Hufflepuff are named Smith.

Nora wrote 
in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3550 :

<< But I'm still thinking of his reaction to his heritage, finding 
out it was *Mummy* who was magical and the like. I don't think we can
just go "Oh, he wanted power and he'd look for it any which way"; I
think his knowledge of and conception of his heritage has shaped his
specific actions, and in a way which speaks to some degree of True
Belief, not just expediency. Hence picking Harry as the threat, the
'boy like him'--that only obtains if he does believe in those
criteria, after all. >>

Surely picking Harry as the threat because of being mixed-blood like
him was a unconscious choice (probably rationalized with some
'logical' reason why Harry would be more dangerous --- e.g. that no
one named Longbottom could possibly be the hero of a book). I suppose
that 'like him' was more important to the perception of danger than
'mixed-blood'; maybe Dumbledore was just wrong and it was that black
hair that Voldie feared.






From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 25 16:07:38 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 08:07:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Filk: The Dark Lords Song
In-Reply-To: <dohf5b+8ijv@...>
Message-ID: <20051225160738.48841.qmail@...>



--- joywitch_m_curmudgeon <joym999 at ...> wrote:

> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Randy"
> <estesrandy at y...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > What Harry Potter Christmas collection would be
> complete without 
> the 
> > Dark Lords Song
> > 
> > The Dark Lords Song
> >  
> > Sung to the tune of "The Christmas Song" by Torme
> and Wells
> > New words by Randy Estes
> > 
> > Dark Marks glowing on our exposed arms
> > Someone misplaced Master's nose
> > Hanging out by an old muggle grave
> > And folks dressed up in masks and robes
> > 
> > Everybody knows some flesh and blood and stolen
> bone
> > Will help make Master feel alright
> > Harry Potter with his scar all aglow
> > Will find it hard to sleep tonight
> > 
> > Harry knows that Voldy's on his way
> > He's goaded lots of former
> > Servants to obey
> > And Barty Crouch's son is gonna spy
> > As Mister Moody with the magical eye.
> > 
> > And so I'm offering this simple phrase 
> > To wizards not watching for You Know Who
> > Although its been said
> > Many times, many ways
> > Voldemort's after you!
> > 
> > 
> > Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All rights
> reserved.
> >
> 
> I love you, Randy.  Will you marry me?  Oh wait, I'm
> already 
> married.  And so are you.  Besides which, I just
> love you for your 
> filks -- it wouldn't work out.
> 
> Your filks are great.  I don't drop by here often,
> but when I do, 
> it's what I look for.  Have you thought about making
> them into a 
> genuine, full-length musical?  (I'm serious.)
> 
> --Joywitch
> 

Oh by the way,

About the marriage proposal... Thanks for the offer! 
I guess we'll just have to carry on the relationship
in cyberspace.:0)

Randy


		
__________________________________________ 
Yahoo! DSL  Something to write home about. 
Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
dsl.yahoo.com 




From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sun Dec 25 17:24:38 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 17:24:38 -0000
Subject: 'Potter' seems like many other Pureblood names // why Voldie chose Harry
In-Reply-To: <dom26i+cfir@...>
Message-ID: <domkkm+52kt@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at w...> 
wrote:
>
> Surely picking Harry as the threat because of being mixed-blood like
> him was a unconscious choice (probably rationalized with some
> 'logical' reason why Harry would be more dangerous 
<snip>

I've always wondered if there were another unconscious, if not outright conscious 
component to the choice. In the early books, we are repeatedly reminded of how very 
much Harry looks like his father, to the point that Harry even mistakes himself for his 
father in POA. Yet in COS it is made very explicit that the young Harry also looks very 
much like the young Riddle. If a sixteen year old Riddle should discern a common 
appearance with Harry, then why not that Riddle also have perceived such a common 
appearance with James (not to mention the commonality of breaking rules, exceptional 
intellect, greater than average magical ability, etc.)? 






From olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec 26 11:45:22 2005
From: olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid (olivierfouquet2000)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:45:22 -0000
Subject: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dolahd+amc5@...>
Message-ID: <dool4i+5ks6@...>

Nora wrote
> Her comments about Lupin's exposure as a werewolf doing "irreparable 
> damage to his prospects for a career in teaching" again make me 
> wonder whether, in a different world, Lupin could have/would have 
> resigned with his reputation intact.  Alas, given the "likes of 
> Fenrir Greyback", things are not looking good for werewolves.  
> Perhaps instead of ESE!Lupin, Heroic!Lupin will change society's 
> views?

Indeed, this has been one of my pet counter-ESE!Lupin for a long time. The werewolves 
discrimination intrigue could lead to a full recognition of Lupin as a valuable human being. 
I don't usually speculate, but before HBP, it seemed plausible to me that Lupin could lead 
the Order after Dumbledore's demise. I'd say this is less likely after HBP if only because 
she said we weren't properly introduced to one of her favorite member of the Order yet 
(CBBC interview). Who would that be? Looking at the people who were introduced though 
not properly and yet definitely in the Order and definitely alive, I'd say Aberforth 
Dumbledore. For literary reasons, I'd expect the Order to collapse in Book 7 with Harry 
getting individual help in his quest, and most prominently from Aberforth. We'll see.

Oh, and for the record, I have some difficulties understanding all the fuss about Snape. JKR 
has been pretty consistent in her characterization of Snape, both in the books and in 
interviews: he isn't a nice guy and has told DD a story that convinced him he was against 
Voldemort. Well, this seems perfectly in accordance with what we saw in HBP: he isn't a 
nice guy, so he does things that aren't nice (like killing DD using an Unforgivable curse); 
yet he obviously shares a secret with DD and is against Voldemort (else he would have at 
least tried to kill or kidnap Harry at the end of HBP28, not to mention finishing DD off 
when he was injured by the protection of the ring).

As to why he changed allegiance and turned against Voldemort, my best guess would be 
that he was in love with Lily. This is old as GoF at least, but each books makes it more and 
more plausible IMHO. 

Best wishes for year 2006,
Olivier






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec 26 22:05:33 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:05:33 -0000
Subject: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dool4i+5ks6@...>
Message-ID: <doppfd+j3cj@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "olivierfouquet2000" <olivier.fouquet at p...> 
wrote:
>
> Nora wrote
> > Her comments about Lupin's exposure as a werewolf doing "irreparable 
> > damage to his prospects for a career in teaching" again make me 
> > wonder whether, in a different world, Lupin could have/would have 
> > resigned with his reputation intact.  Alas, given the "likes of 
> > Fenrir Greyback", things are not looking good for werewolves.  
> > Perhaps instead of ESE!Lupin, Heroic!Lupin will change society's 
> > views?
> 
> Indeed, this has been one of my pet counter-ESE!Lupin for a long time. The werewolves 
> discrimination intrigue could lead to a full recognition of Lupin as a valuable human 
being.  I don't usually speculate, but before HBP, it seemed plausible to me that Lupin 
could lead  the Order after Dumbledore's demise. I'd say this is less likely after HBP if only 
because  she said we weren't properly introduced to one of her favorite member of the 
Order yet  (CBBC interview). Who would that be? Looking at the people who were 
introduced though  not properly and yet definitely in the Order and definitely alive, I'd say 
Aberforth Dumbledore. For literary reasons, I'd expect the Order to collapse in Book 7 with 
Harry  getting individual help in his quest, and most prominently from Aberforth. We'll see.
> 
> Oh, and for the record, I have some difficulties understanding all the fuss about Snape. 
JKR  has been pretty consistent in her characterization of Snape, both in the books and in 
interviews: he isn't a nice guy and has told DD a story that convinced him he was against 
 Voldemort. Well, this seems perfectly in accordance with what we saw in HBP: he isn't a 
 nice guy, so he does things that aren't nice (like killing DD using an Unforgivable curse); 
 

Pippin:
That's just it, Olivier, it may be obvious that Snape killed Dumbledore, but it's
not airtight by any means. It's not obvious that he *didn't* do it, of course,
but then it wasn't obvious that Scabbers was more than a rat,  or that Ginny 
was a fireball who hadn't given up on Harry. 

As for Lupin, I'm afraid that society isn't likely to change their views about 
werewolves as long as Fenrir speaks for more of them than Lupin does. But
if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind by giving Lupin 
such an apparently passive role in the last two books. If he doesn't get 
over his passivity, he'll be unable to lead the werewolves, and if he does, 
he'll be a complete Gary Stu. So I think ESE!Lupin's probably the most 
interesting thing JKR can do with him.

Pippin







From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec 26 22:29:54 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:29:54 -0000
Subject: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <doppfd+j3cj@...>
Message-ID: <dopqt2+os8m@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> But if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind by 
> giving Lupin such an apparently passive role in the last two books.

Wait a minute.  Couldn't Lupin have been apparently passive in the same 
way that Ginny apparently totally got over her thing for Harry?  
Argument works both ways, you know. :)

We dun know what he's really been up to with the werewolves; he could 
have been fairly active within the Order.  He hasn't gotten much page 
tim in the last two books, for sure.  That's no guarantee that he won't 
play a major (and positive, contra the ESE! theory) role in the last 
one.

> If he doesn't get over his passivity, he'll be unable to lead the 
> werewolves, and if he does, he'll be a complete Gary Stu. So I think 
> ESE!Lupin's probably the most interesting thing JKR can do with him.

I see the excluded middle peeking its head out again, I think.  I saw 
Lupin's pattern of personal reticence being broken at the end of HBP, 
actually, with Tonks getting through to him.  YMMV, but that may well 
be the setup for a more active and engaged Lupin in book 7.  I don't 
see that as making him out to be Gary Stu, because he's not all of the 
sudden going to become handsome, bag all the chicks, defeat Voldemort 
and take the spotlight away from the main hero, and have all of his 
blemished polished off.

-Nora finds 'complete Gary Stu' to usually show up as Harry in fanboy 
fics, who has both a harem and massive super powerz






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec 26 22:48:34 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:48:34 -0000
Subject: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dopqt2+os8m@...>
Message-ID: <dops02+dlpb@...>

Pippin:
> > If he doesn't get over his passivity, he'll be unable to lead the 
> > werewolves, and if he does, he'll be a complete Gary Stu. So I think 
> > ESE!Lupin's probably the most interesting thing JKR can do with him.

Nora:
> I see the excluded middle peeking its head out again, I think.  I saw 
> Lupin's pattern of personal reticence being broken at the end of HBP, 
> actually, with Tonks getting through to him.  YMMV, but that may well 
> be the setup for a more active and engaged Lupin in book 7.  I don't 
> see that as making him out to be Gary Stu, because he's not all of the 
> sudden going to become handsome, bag all the chicks, defeat Voldemort 
> and take the spotlight away from the main hero, and have all of his 
> blemished polished off.

Pippin:
Nope. I didn't exclude the middle. JKR did. Apart from his passivity
and his furry little problem,  which in this scenario he will
triumphantly overcome, what blemishes does Lupin have?

Pippin






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Dec 26 23:28:01 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:28:01 -0000
Subject: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dops02+dlpb@...>
Message-ID: <dopua1+rmpi@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> Pippin:
> Nope. I didn't exclude the middle. JKR did. Apart from his passivity
> and his furry little problem,  which in this scenario he will
> triumphantly overcome, what blemishes does Lupin have?

So if Lupin improves to any degree on his passivity and society has 
some improvements in views of werewolves, he's become perfect?

-Nora doesn't quite see it, herself






From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 27 02:01:25 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 21:01:25 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dops02+dlpb@...>
References: <dopqt2+os8m@...> <dops02+dlpb@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580512261801u730da0e1m75f3b0dd077cfea4@...>

>
> Pippin:
> Nope. I didn't exclude the middle. JKR did. Apart from his passivity
> and his furry little problem,  which in this scenario he will
> triumphantly overcome, what blemishes does Lupin have?






Snow:



Not many?isn't that the real problem? Lupin doesn't show emotion and yet at
the end of HBP, Lupin is more devastated by the news of Dumbledore's sudden
demise than anyone else in the wizarding world. To me it was a scream of
pain when the news was announced but what was more was the way in which
Lupin excused everyone in the hospital room who felt they contributed to
Dumbledore's death by saying "it wasn't your fault". I wont bother to quote
them all but Lupin tells each person that feels this way that it isn't their
fault. Very curious that he feels or knows that it is not anyone's fault
that would like to admit to it. It really does seem to fit that Lupin has
remained the silent contributor to the Potters death.



We meet Lupin in POA and assume that Dumbledore has hired him but what if
Lupin also (like Pettigrew) realized that Sirius escape could possibly
threaten him? If Lupin were guilty, wouldn't Lupin have attempted shelter in
the safest place possible, Hogwarts? I like to think of Dumbledore as being
suspicious of Lupin's acquired position knowing full well of the jinx that
had been placed upon it. Even when Snape asks Dumbledore in the Great Hall
(after Sirius break-in) if he recalls his fear of appointing the position to
Lupin, Dumbledore could honestly answer that no one inside the castle, at
that point, Would help Sirius get in. Lupin was afraid that Sirius became
aware of the truth after Pettigrew's death but when he learned via the map
that Pettigrew was alive, there was still a possible chance. Lupin entered
the shack with extreme power. Lupin was in charge. Lupin could evaluate the
situation. A bit of Legilimence on Sirius told him that Sirius still blamed
Peter and never found out that he was the true culprit. Peter never knew, a
bit slow on the uptake, that Lupin was involved at all. Peter felt that he
was truly to blame so he could still be used as the scapegoat.



Lupin has truly been suspicious. I heard someone say once that duplicity is
human nature and thought who else would be the painted good guy? His entire
character leaves me agape. Here's this guy who had no friends and was very
lucky indeed to even attend school let alone make friends and then go one
further and have friends that accept his deformity?Wow. Oh but then came
Snape to ruin all his fun. But his good friends would not allow Snape to
ruin all their fun becoming Animagus? Then something terrible happened,
James saved Snape and therefore ended the outing spree. James and Sirius
both grew up to the fact that taking someone's life was not worth the
outings but did Lupin? Was Lupin really able to cope with being alone during
his transformations again? Well I would think the door would be wide open to
options. If someone were to approach Lupin with a quick fix, would he have
taken it? This is a guy who thinks of himself, not others. I'm fairly sure
he could be persuaded, especially in his teenage years.



I guess in the end, for me, it was Lupin's lack of emotion to Sirius' death
compared to his overtly and emotionally disbelief at Dumbledore's death that
has me sold that Lupin has a toe tag waiting for him in the end.


Snow

>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 27 09:00:12 2005
From: olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid (Olivier Fouquet)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:00:12 +0100
Subject: bugger and All things Snape
Message-ID: <A203420F-EDE3-4301-A9C5-2BE6A70ED99A@...>

Pippin
> That's just it, Olivier, it may be obvious that Snape killed  
> Dumbledore, but
> it's not airtight by any means. It's not obvious that he *didn't*  
> do it, of course,
> but then it wasn't obvious that Scabbers was more than a rat, or  
> that Ginny
> was a fireball who hadn't given up on Harry.

I understand your position Pippin, but as I said numerous times, I  
don't theorize, so I see Snape firing an AK at Dumbledore, I deduce  
he finished him with an AK (though I admit that DD was dying at that  
time anyway). Likewise, I see a rat, I think a rat. It may be that  
book 7 will prove that in fact Snape tried to save DD using a fake AK  
and that DD died of poisoning but that will be book 7. My point was  
that Snape (seemingly) killing DD does not strike me as surprising  
considering what we knew about Snape and what we JKR kept telling us  
about him: he is not a nice guy. Even if it turns out that actually  
Snape did not kill DD, I believe my point remains valid.

On the other hand, while I concede it wasn't obvious that Ginny was a  
fireball who hadn't given up on Harry, I would say it was by far the  
most likely outcome. Ginny has been consistently depicted as a  
determined girl and has consistently sent very positive signs toward  
Harry (blushing in GoF, supporting him in OoP...)

> As for Lupin, I'm afraid that society isn't likely to change their  
> views about
> werewolves as long as Fenrir speaks for more of them than Lupin  
> does. But
> if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind by giving  
> Lupin
> such an apparently passive role in the last two books. If he  
> doesn't get
> over his passivity, he'll be unable to lead the werewolves, and if  
> he does,
> he'll be a complete Gary Stu. So I think ESE!Lupin's probably the most
> interesting thing JKR can do with him.

Here follows some possible middle-way Lupin treatments:

1) Lupin plays a small helping role in the grand quest Harry will be  
undertaking in book 7, for instance by managing to turn at least a  
few Werewolves away from Voldemort or by playing a role in recruiting  
some goblins, Harry defeats Voldemort, Lupin weds Tonks and though  
once in a while he has to lock himself in a room, all ends well for him.

2) Voldemort triumphs through and through while Harry hunts the  
Horcruxes. About the end of the book, there are DE's everywhere in  
killings spree. Harry, having finally destroyed enough Horcruxes,  
bravely attacks LV's lair, faces Fenrir, is about to be killed, is  
saved by a transformed Lupin, Fenrir and Lupin kill each other.

3) Harry discover a few unexpected things about his parents and the  
Dudleys, has a discussion with Lupin (e.g about how Lily and James  
got together), where he discovers that his mother was friendly to  
Snape. Lupin is mentioned a few more times in the background,  
fighting against LV.

Of course, any combination of them works too. In my opinion, side  
characters in HP are passive (think about what DD actually did in the  
first four books, or what McGonagall is supposed to be doing in the  
Order), and I expect them to be even more so in book 7. So I don't  
expect ESE!Lupin nor GaryStu!Lupin if only for screen time reasons.

> Apart from his passivity
> and his furry little problem, which in this scenario he will
> triumphantly overcome, what blemishes does Lupin have?

Well, in scenario 1) 2) 3) I sketched above, he remains more or less  
the Lupin we know now: gentle and kind, probably quite sharp, but  
undecided, nostalgic and with a tendency to wait rather than act.  
Definitely not perfect (but a good complement to easy-going,  
talkative, clumsy Tonks if I may say so). Likewise, I wouldn't expect  
Hagrid to change much in book 7: endlessly loyal to DD (and Harry),  
practical and emotional, not particularly bright. Definitely not  
perfect either.

Olivier

PS: By the way, I'm fully on Nora's side in the complex/simple  
discussion about HP.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 27 11:02:36 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:02:36 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <A203420F-EDE3-4301-A9C5-2BE6A70ED99A@...>
References: <A203420F-EDE3-4301-A9C5-2BE6A70ED99A@...>
Message-ID: <200512271200.33605.silmariel@...>


Olivier:
> Of course, any combination of them works too. In my opinion, side
> characters in HP are passive (think about what DD actually did in the
> first four books, or what McGonagall is supposed to be doing in the
> Order), and I expect them to be even more so in book 7. So I don't
> expect ESE!Lupin nor GaryStu!Lupin if only for screen time reasons.
>

Now that we have Bill werewolf-tainted, we don't need Lupin to further the 
werewolf crusade. Well, if you read everything in plain reading, DD hasn't 
done a thing in four books. He also didn't say to trust anyone in the Order, 
except Hagrid and Snape. What is doing McGonadall? Not being trusted enough, 
imo, when the first thing she does is try to get info of Harry and get 
rejected. DD's woman should have now the kid had been trained not to talk. 

But I expect someone apparently good turning bad and someone apparently bad 
turnig good, we have enough clues to maintain that bangs a possibilities. All 
the Dobby appearances in CoS are too fishy to buy -I'm with Kneasy here-, and 
that points to the Malfoys playing to sides. As I wouldn't call Snape 
apparently bad or good but playing the middle ground, I look for other 
characters. Just my likings, of course, I theorize.

Pippin:
> > Apart from his passivity
> > and his furry little problem, which in this scenario he will
> > triumphantly overcome, what blemishes does Lupin have?
>

Silmariel goes to the dictionary to see what blemish means.

Olivier:
> Well, in scenario 1) 2) 3) I sketched above, he remains more or less
> the Lupin we know now: gentle and kind, probably quite sharp, but
> undecided, nostalgic and with a tendency to wait rather than act.
> Definitely not perfect (but a good complement to easy-going,
> talkative, clumsy Tonks if I may say so). Likewise, I wouldn't expect
> Hagrid to change much in book 7: endlessly loyal to DD (and Harry),
> practical and emotional, not particularly bright. Definitely not
> perfect either.
>

Being undecided, nostalgic and with a tendency to wait rather than act it's 
something I'd call temperament and not failures per se. They definitely add 
to the way I perceive him as weak, but not on their on. I fear a scenario 
devoid of thinking not acting people and full of let's just act people, so 
I'd say he is part of the diversity.

There's his change in communication when he gets nervous, he makes jokes 
somehow dark, he doesn't look in the eye, but if you want a WYSIWYG fault, he 
considers and so tells Harry that he has failed DD twice, by not telling him 
the animagus thing, wich in PoA meant not telling him he *knew* how that 
dangerous criminal could have access to Howgarts. That's a considerable 
fault, imo, not tied to 'waiting rather than acting', because it's a 
situation where it's clear what to do. More tied to self-shame, if you see 
him as Good.

Add a third 'I failed you, I ask your forgiveness' in book 7 and you have a 
kind of St. Peter.

Of course, I'd prefer for Harry and kids to learn that a caring, gentle, kind 
person can also compartimentalice as a good occlumens and not let that 
feeling interfere with primary objetives (real life, imo). Nothing personal, 
kid, I really like you, but... that does not matter.

Silmariel, who doesn't know if the reply she sent to Potioncat has reached 
her, because she knows very well MsnMort.



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 27 11:36:18 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:36:18 -0000
Subject: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580512261801u730da0e1m75f3b0dd077cfea4@...>
Message-ID: <dor8vi+n186@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kathy King <kking0731 at g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Lupin has truly been suspicious. I heard someone say once that duplicity is
> human nature and thought who else would be the painted good guy? His entire
> character leaves me agape. Here's this guy who had no friends and was very
> lucky indeed to even attend school let alone make friends and then go one
> further and have friends that accept his deformity
Wow. Oh but then came
> Snape to ruin all his fun. But his good friends would not allow Snape to
> ruin all their fun becoming Animagus? Then something terrible happened,
> James saved Snape and therefore ended the outing spree. James and Sirius
> both grew up to the fact that taking someone's life was not worth the
> outings but did Lupin? Was Lupin really able to cope with being alone during
> his transformations again? Well I would think the door would be wide open to
> options. If someone were to approach Lupin with a quick fix, would he have
> taken it? This is a guy who thinks of himself, not others. I'm fairly sure
> he could be persuaded, especially in his teenage years.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess in the end, for me, it was Lupin's lack of emotion to Sirius' death
> compared to his overtly and emotionally disbelief at Dumbledore's death that
> has me sold that Lupin has a toe tag waiting for him in the end.
> 

Surfacing after the seasonal surfeit.

Yep, there're a lot of gaps and inconsistencies that prevent a clear view of Wolf-Boy.
As with most of the HP characters if we knew just a little bit more of his past we 
would have a fair crack at forecasting his future progression (be it exposure for 
past dirty deeds followed by satisfying retribution, or more boring - IMO - the 
leaden let-down that he's a largely ineffectual ditherer who meant well).

We've come to expect (though it may be unjustified) that the form of ones Patronus
is an indication of character - yet we don't know what ectoplasmal beastie Lupin
produces - despite his having conjured it on the Express in PoA. Very suspicious,
to my way of thinking. Throw in that he was quite conversational with that first
Dementor (as DADA one would expect him  to be aware that, as DD said "They
are not open to pleading or excuses," or persuasion, I'd expect), so suspicious
minds could be excused for wondering what's going on. 

And that battered case with the peeling name - an unemployable professor? So
how did he get the appellation? His father's, some think - but. What are the odds
that he has a father that a) was in the teaching profession and b) had exactly the
same initials as Lupin. Pretty long, I'd think. So  has he been teaching elsewhere
at some time or other? And what teaching establishment would that be?  SFAIK
there's been no depiction of Lupin meeting any of the Durmstrang mob. Pity;
it might answer a few questions.

Fertile ground for speculation. Best make hay while the sun is still shining.
I note that Jo's Chrissie pressie to fans consisted of stifling a few more of the
extant speculative threads. 
Probably didn't want us to worry our little heads about such stuff.
How kind.

Kneasy 






From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 27 11:34:28 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:34:28 +1100
Subject: bugger Lupin [Was Re: bugger and All things Snape]
In-Reply-To: <dopua1+rmpi@...>
References: <dops02+dlpb@...> <dopua1+rmpi@...>
Message-ID: <20051227113428.GG21593@...>

On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 11:28:01PM -0000, nrenka wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> 
> > Pippin:
> > Nope. I didn't exclude the middle. JKR did. Apart from his passivity
> > and his furry little problem,  which in this scenario he will
> > triumphantly overcome, what blemishes does Lupin have?
> 
> So if Lupin improves to any degree on his passivity and society has 
> some improvements in views of werewolves, he's become perfect?
> 
> -Nora doesn't quite see it, herself

You know, my problem with Lupin is that I don't particularly care about him.
I've seen so much analysis on him to and fro and none of it (except for
entertainment value) has really come to much. There isn't much to go on
anyway.

I think we might have to swallow something rather unpalatable. Lupin is just a
lightly-written character, doomed to be the 'werewolf on the street'
eyewitness. Despite protestations to the contrary, I don't think Ginny's
character has much further depth to it either, even though she was given a bit
more to do in book 6 than Lupin. I could add a few more essentially passive
characters to the list, but Lupin and Ginny have at least the pretence that
they may have a future active role. And a cull will be necessary. It's more
bangy to cull active characters, but surely a few passive ones like Lupin and
Ginny are perfect to do one active task, and get death eaten.

"Harry, the horcrux is in -- aaaggghhhh!"

-- 
Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.



From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 27 17:42:11 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:42:11 -0000
Subject: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dopua1+rmpi@...>
Message-ID: <dorudj+5uke@...>

 > Pippin:
> > Nope. I didn't exclude the middle. JKR did. Apart from his passivity
> > and his furry little problem,  which in this scenario he will
> > triumphantly overcome, what blemishes does Lupin have?


Nora:
> So if Lupin improves to any degree on his passivity and society has 
> some improvements in views of werewolves, he's become perfect?


Pippin:
Of course JKR wouldn't fantasize about drooling fan girls or harems,
but she has told us that Lupin is an idealized version of the kind
of teacher she would like to be. If he overcomes his passivity,
does something heroic and  gets a teaching job again, there's   
a miraculous solution to what looks to be an  intractable social problem, 
which is another daydream of hers.  Yeah, that's little too perfect for me. 
Even if Tonks dies and Lupin is heartbroken, that's still a very Gary 
Stu scenario.

Suppose Hagrid gets his happy ending: he and Harry both survive,
Grawp vindicates both his pagetime and Hagrid's monster obsession,
and Hagrid and Maxime tie the knot. There's bittersweetness built into that.
Grawp will still be a character only a brother could love.  Marrying Maxime
will probably mean that Hagrid leaves Hogwarts and Harry, and goes to
live far away. And Hagrid will still be rough around the edges, have
a loooong way to go as  a teacher, be  inclined to fits of temper and 
a bit too free with his lips and  the occasional boozer. Giants may be
welcomed back to England, but Hagrid will be going off to France.

But where are Lupin's blemishes, when is he ever  even allowed to 
become annoying? Lupin struggles, okay, but even then  he gets pale and 
interesting, rather than drunk and irritable. 

Pippin
Rather grateful to JKR for shooting down Vampire!Snape  now so that
it will be a distant memory when ESE!Lupin is vindicated (should that
ever take place)






From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 27 17:55:47 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:55:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <A203420F-EDE3-4301-A9C5-2BE6A70ED99A@...>
Message-ID: <20051227175547.30183.qmail@...>



--- Olivier Fouquet
<olivier.fouquet at ...> wrote:

> Pippin
> > That's just it, Olivier, it may be obvious that
> Snape killed  
> > Dumbledore, but
> > it's not airtight by any means. It's not obvious
> that he *didn't*  
> > do it, of course,
> > but then it wasn't obvious that Scabbers was more
> than a rat, or  
> > that Ginny
> > was a fireball who hadn't given up on Harry.
> 
> I understand your position Pippin, but as I said
> numerous times, I  
> don't theorize, so I see Snape firing an AK at
> Dumbledore, I deduce  
> he finished him with an AK (though I admit that DD
> was dying at that  
> time anyway). Likewise, I see a rat, I think a rat.
> It may be that  
> book 7 will prove that in fact Snape tried to save
> DD using a fake AK  
> and that DD died of poisoning but that will be book
> 7. My point was  
> that Snape (seemingly) killing DD does not strike me
> as surprising  
> considering what we knew about Snape and what we JKR
> kept telling us  
> about him: he is not a nice guy. Even if it turns
> out that actually  
> Snape did not kill DD, I believe my point remains
> valid.
> 
> On the other hand, while I concede it wasn't obvious
> that Ginny was a  
> fireball who hadn't given up on Harry, I would say
> it was by far the  
> most likely outcome. Ginny has been consistently
> depicted as a  
> determined girl and has consistently sent very
> positive signs toward  
> Harry (blushing in GoF, supporting him in OoP...)
> 
> > As for Lupin, I'm afraid that society isn't likely
> to change their  
> > views about
> > werewolves as long as Fenrir speaks for more of
> them than Lupin  
> > does. But
> > if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in
> a bind by giving  
> > Lupin
> > such an apparently passive role in the last two
> books. If he  
> > doesn't get
> > over his passivity, he'll be unable to lead the
> werewolves, and if  
> > he does,
> > he'll be a complete Gary Stu. So I think
> ESE!Lupin's probably the most
> > interesting thing JKR can do with him.
> 
> Here follows some possible middle-way Lupin
> treatments:
> 
> 1) Lupin plays a small helping role in the grand
> quest Harry will be  
> undertaking in book 7, for instance by managing to
> turn at least a  
> few Werewolves away from Voldemort or by playing a
> role in recruiting  
> some goblins, Harry defeats Voldemort, Lupin weds
> Tonks and though  
> once in a while he has to lock himself in a room,
> all ends well for him.
> 
> 2) Voldemort triumphs through and through while
> Harry hunts the  
> Horcruxes. About the end of the book, there are DE's
> everywhere in  
> killings spree. Harry, having finally destroyed
> enough Horcruxes,  
> bravely attacks LV's lair, faces Fenrir, is about to
> be killed, is  
> saved by a transformed Lupin, Fenrir and Lupin kill
> each other.
> 
> 3) Harry discover a few unexpected things about his
> parents and the  
> Dudleys, has a discussion with Lupin (e.g about how
> Lily and James  
> got together), where he discovers that his mother
> was friendly to  
> Snape. Lupin is mentioned a few more times in the
> background,  
> fighting against LV.
> 
> Of course, any combination of them works too. In my
> opinion, side  
> characters in HP are passive (think about what DD
> actually did in the  
> first four books, or what McGonagall is supposed to
> be doing in the  
> Order), and I expect them to be even more so in book
> 7. So I don't  
> expect ESE!Lupin nor GaryStu!Lupin if only for
> screen time reasons.
> 
> > Apart from his passivity
> > and his furry little problem, which in this
> scenario he will
> > triumphantly overcome, what blemishes does Lupin
> have?
> 
> Well, in scenario 1) 2) 3) I sketched above, he
> remains more or less  
> the Lupin we know now: gentle and kind, probably
> quite sharp, but  
> undecided, nostalgic and with a tendency to wait
> rather than act.  
> Definitely not perfect (but a good complement to
> easy-going,  
> talkative, clumsy Tonks if I may say so). Likewise,
> I wouldn't expect  
> Hagrid to change much in book 7: endlessly loyal to
> DD (and Harry),  
> practical and emotional, not particularly bright.
> Definitely not  
> perfect either.
> 
> Olivier
> 
> PS: By the way, I'm fully on Nora's side in the
> complex/simple  
> discussion about HP.
> 
> 

I agree with these Lupin ideas.  It may be cliche, but
you always have battle scenes where certain characters
fight their counterparts to the death.  Lupin versus
Fenrir seems obvious.  Lupin dying is dramatic and
cleans up the messy life after marriage to Tonks where
Lupin accidently eats the children one night.  It
would be all over the front page of "the Sun" the next
week.  Further line ups for the Wizard Playoffs are
listed below:

Snape must either do battle with Harry or Voldemort or
both.  Snape either saves Harry by killing Voldy or
vice versa or Snape dies trying.  Or Harry kills Snape
in self defense.  McGonagall could kill Peter since
the Cat kills the Rat.  Harry must somehow defeat
Bellatrix.  Perhaps Narcissa kills Bellatrix to redeem
herself (perhaps after Lucius or Draco dies).  Neville
has to finally mature and kill somebody or else be
killed because we cannot leave him half-grown up.  

Maybe Neville has to appear to kill Harry in order to
kill Voldemort.  Then Harry magically pops back to
life using dragon blood or something.  The Super Bowl
of battles must contain Harry versus Voldemort, but
the old switcheroo is one of JKR's favorites.

Let's see... who is left.  Well the Weasley family
could lose a few.  I see Fleur getting into the fight.
 Maybe she kills Bellatrix.  Arthur seems a shoe in
for Minister of Magic to me.  I think Narcissa will
turn out to be good in the end with or without Lucius
and Draco.  

This seems to make sense to me based on all the famous
battles such as the ones in "Lord of the Rings" and
"Narnia" and so on and so on.

Red Eye Randy

PS I know that everyone will ignore all of my comments
like usual and wait for some other post by a more
respected member of the OC.
But I don't care......


	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. 
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/



From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Tue Dec 27 19:05:37 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:05:37 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <20051227175547.30183.qmail@...>
References: <20051227175547.30183.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <200512272005.37502.silmariel@...>


> PS I know that everyone will ignore all of my comments
> like usual and wait for some other post by a more
> respected member of the OC.
> But I don't care......

Seer crystal ball, I have another doubt: who's to be poisoned by Norbert (that 
other excuse for making the tittle HP and the Black Dragon) and possibly (if 
he's not one of the Dark minions, of course) healed by Fawkes? 

Silmariel




From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 28 01:21:02 2005
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:21:02 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
References: <20051227175547.30183.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <009401c60b4c$f7e72ae0$6701a8c0@...>

>Randy said:

> I agree with these Lupin ideas.  It may be cliche, but
> you always have battle scenes where certain characters
> fight their counterparts to the death.  Lupin versus
> Fenrir seems obvious.  Lupin dying is dramatic and
> cleans up the messy life after marriage to Tonks where
> Lupin accidently eats the children one night.  It
> would be all over the front page of "the Sun" the next
> week.  Further line ups for the Wizard Playoffs are
> listed below:
>
> Snape must either do battle with Harry or Voldemort or
> both.  Snape either saves Harry by killing Voldy or
> vice versa or Snape dies trying.  Or Harry kills Snape
> in self defense.  McGonagall could kill Peter since
> the Cat kills the Rat.  Harry must somehow defeat
> Bellatrix.  Perhaps Narcissa kills Bellatrix to redeem
> herself (perhaps after Lucius or Draco dies).  Neville
> has to finally mature and kill somebody or else be
> killed because we cannot leave him half-grown up.
>
> Maybe Neville has to appear to kill Harry in order to
> kill Voldemort.  Then Harry magically pops back to
> life using dragon blood or something.  The Super Bowl
> of battles must contain Harry versus Voldemort, but
> the old switcheroo is one of JKR's favorites.
>
> Let's see... who is left.  Well the Weasley family
> could lose a few.  I see Fleur getting into the fight.
> Maybe she kills Bellatrix.  Arthur seems a shoe in
> for Minister of Magic to me.  I think Narcissa will
> turn out to be good in the end with or without Lucius
> and Draco.
>
> This seems to make sense to me based on all the famous
> battles such as the ones in "Lord of the Rings" and
> "Narnia" and so on and so on.
>
> Red Eye Randy

Rebecca here, fresh from holiday madness:

Place your bets, people.  :)

While we certainly have epic scenes where similiar foes battle one another, 
I'd submit that a Bill/Fleur combination is as a good a candidate as any to 
battle Fenrir - Lupin vs Fenrir is too *easy*, especially as tidy solution 
to a potential married Lupin eatin' the young. Personally, I feel that JKR, 
being as committed to the concept of human/social rights as she appears to 
be and how she professes to like Lupin as she does, will contrive something 
successful for him to survive and have some measure of happiness. <shrug> 
I'm just sayin' it's possible.

Snape....now there's a quandry.  As you point out, Randy, it can go so many 
ways, but the one I'm most partial to is Voldemort spouting an AK Sevvie's 
way,  because IMOVHO (in my own *very* humble opinion) I think it's possible 
Severus is going to get too big for his britches and challenge ol' Snake 
Nose. I mean, look at it this way: Snape's now going to be infamous for 
killing the one wizard that the rest of the free wizard world "considers the 
greatestest wizard of modern times" per his Chocolate Frog Card - one whom 
LV himself fought once, only once, and didn't win.

Why do I submit this?  Dumbledore's own words.  LV has no friends, 
Dumbledore says, and those DE's who think they're in LV's confidences are 
quite wrong.  Dumbledore also reiterates that common fault associated with 
those who oppress others - sooner or later someone is going to challenge the 
oppressor, whether for the good or to supplant the oppressor in some 
fashion. Snape's not stupid by any means, as he's been able to successfully 
either spy or counter spy between the 2 most powerful wizards in the 
wizarding world. JKR has established him as quite powerful in HBP and if 
Snape is only in this all for himself......it's not totally inconceivable to 
think Snape's got his own agenda for personal power and glory.

I also particularly like the Narcissa/Bellatrix duel - it happens in war 
that siblings fight each other. Will Peter, fulfilling his Gollum like role 
for Harry, be doomed to some exploding cursed Horcux?

So many possibilities...so little time...

Rebecca

PS: Speak of Horcruxes, anyone else take note that the Castle itself "is a 
stronghold of ancient magic?" One wonders if perhaps when LV visited DD way 
back when...naw, can't be. He just jinxed the DADA job that time, right? 





From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Dec 28 05:02:38 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:02:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] New Filk: Vol De Mort (The Riddle Song)
In-Reply-To: <do4fed+46fe@...>
Message-ID: <20051228050239.77347.qmail@...>



--- fhmaneely <fmaneely at ...> wrote:

Fran wrote
> 
> I love it!!  Now what can you do with the Do Re Mi
> song.....
> BTW, the movie was on tv last night!
> 
> Fran
>  
> 

Upon Request....sung to the tune of "Do Re Mi" from
"The Sound of Music" by Rodgers and Hammerstein

New lyrics by Randy Estes

Vol De Mort (The Riddle Song)

Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read you begin with Tom Riddle
When you scream you begin with Vold de mort

Vold de mort, Vold de mort
He didnt like Riddle whos Muggle born
Muggle born, Not his sort

[JKR:]
Tom Riddle was a muggle born 
[spoken]
Let's see if I can make it easy

Tom, a boy who split his soul
He seeks immortality
Harry, a child he tried to kill
But the spell failed miserably
So, a scar lies on his head
Tom, a disembodied soul
He was thought by most as dead
But he does come back as told (in book 4)


[JKR and Children:]
[Repeat above verse twice]

[JKR:] Harry thus far escapes his foe!
As told!

[JKR: (spoken)]

Now children, Voldemort fights Harry Potter
are only the tools we use to build a story.
Once you have these folks in your heads, 
you can write a million different twists by mixing
them up.
Like this.

Tom Riddle writes a diary
[spoken]
Can you do that?
[Children:]
Tom Riddle writes a diary
[JKR:]
Harry destroys it gallantly!
[Children:]
Harry destroys it gallantly!
[JKR:]
[spoken]
Now, put it all together.

[JKR and Children:]
Tom Riddle writes a diary. Harry destroys it
gallantly! 
[JKR:]
[spoken]
Good!
[Kneasy and Pippin:]
[spoken]
But it doesn't explain everything.
[JKR:]
[spoken]
So we put in plot twists. One plot twist for every
book ending. Like this.

When Tom makes his horcrux ring
His soul bits go in this thing!
[spoken]
Together!

[JKR and Children:]
When Tom makes his horcrux ring
His soul bits go in this thing!

[JKR]
When Draco fails Voldemort
Snape will kill off Dumbledore!

[Children look at JKR like shes a bit daft]


Tom, a boy who split his soul
He seeks immortality
Harry, a child he tried to kill
But the spell failed miserably
So, a scar lies on his head
Tom, a disembodied soul
He was thought by most as dead
But he does come back as told (in book 4)


Tom Riddle writes a diary. 
Harry destroys it gallantly!

[Children:]
Tom Riddle
Splits his soul
Tries to kill
Young Harry

[Repeat above verse 4x as JKR  sings]

[JKR:]
When you read my next ending
Youll complain bout everything!


[JKR and Children:]

Tom, a boy who split his soul
He seeks immortality
Harry, a child he tried to kill
Cause there was this prophesy
It lies in a jar of glass
Voldy wants to get it back
Makes him look like quite an ass
Then they killed off Sirius Black (oh my god!)

[JKR:]
[Children:]

Tom Riddle
Splits his soul
Tries to kill
Young Harry
Some Stupid
Prophesy

His soul bits stored inside old things-like
rings!-which sting when dinged!


Alternate Ending:

[Kneasy, Pippin and the Old Crowd]

Whyd we have to read this thing
Its taken over our brains!
We dont like this horcrux ring
Changing plots like switching trains
JKRs put us through hell
Then she took us round the bend
Shes just not about to tell
How this whole damn thing will end!

Tom Riddle
Splits his soul
Tries to kill
Young Harry
Some Stupid
Prophesy

[Pippin]
I think Lupins the one who smells! And kills!He is
Evil !!!!!!

The curtain falls



copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  All rights reserved.



		
__________________________________________ 
Yahoo! DSL  Something to write home about. 
Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
dsl.yahoo.com 




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 29 16:38:45 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:38:45 +0000
Subject: 'Twas etc. part 4.
Message-ID: <35A4CD70-A569-4D84-8923-20680C42A966@...>

'Twas the week after Christmas and Madam Whiplash was not amused.
Four days since she'd been told to expect three ghostly guests and  
the last one still hadn't turned up. This was not to be countenanced.  
Strict rules of the House; you made a booking, you arrived on time -  
or else. The 'Unwarranted Cancelation Curse' was something to be  
feared - unfortunately, in this instance there was no one for  
Hermione to aim it at, which didn't improve her temper.

So when the familiar vapours formed on the surface of the Pensieve a  
grim  smile of satisfaction replaced her thunderous frown.

"Keep me waiting, will he? Right. Let's see how he copes with a  
transfer to Myrtle's U-bend. OK, Dumbledore .... wait a minute,  
you're not Dumbledore. What's going on? I'm expecting that old fool  
to arrive whittering on about choices. Where is he? Who're you?"

"Tough titty, girly. He ain't coming - you've got me instead."

"And who are you?"

The lean, be-whiskered phantom with the penetrating gaze raised an  
eyebrow, "Salazar Slytherin, of course."

"But you're evil!"

"Sez who?"

"Everybody!"

"Then everybody's wrong - as usual."

"But the Hat said -"

"Yeah? And just what did the Hat say? That I took cunning purebloods  
and the ambitious? Too right, I did. You got to remember, this was a  
thousand years ago. Do you know what  the average Muggle was like in  
those days? Illiterate, scrofulous, credulous and dim. Oh, we tried.  
Sent out the invitations by owl, just as they do now. 'Third hovel  
below the Midden', 'Just downwind of the cess-pit'. Pointless - they  
couldn't read. And when they took the letters to the parish priest to  
find out what it was all about, next thing they knew they'd be  
strapped into the ducking stool and be looking at the ducks from  
underneath. Waste of good parchment.

"So I said 'Let's keep it in the wizarding families. At least they've  
got some clue to what it's all about, know how to keep their mouths  
shut and won't spend six months wandering around the countryside  
asking directions to a school that's invisible to your average  
yokel.' Went over like rat droppings in the gruel, that did. Got  
called all sorts of nasty names." He sighed. "After a while it got   
to me - all those remedial classes for those who believed that a  
lunar eclipse was caused by a cheese-munching sky-god, trying to drum  
into some thicko's head that there's more to magic than Aphrodisiacs  
and wart removal. That's all they ever seemed to think about - that  
and charming geese to lay golden eggs. Talk about limited goals.  
Depressing, it was.

"Then came the bust-up. Mind you, I'd had a bad day, what with that  
stupid kid and his get-rich-quick idea. Accio totalus means just that  
- you get everything - Basilisks, Cockatrices, Dragon Pox, Italy....  
It took ages to sort out the mess in the Common-room. So I left.  
After I'd disappeared, that's when the whispers started. Elitist,  
racist, all the rest of the claptrap. So-bloody-called interpreters  
of my message. Happens all the time. I was only talking to Odin the  
other day; there he was, sitting pretty - All-father, Sky-father, God  
of Runes, Victory and all that lot, whose shamans' duty it was to  
question each child at the mid-winter feast to find out if they'd  
been behaving themselves and Bingo! Along come the historical  
revisionists and turn him into a branch of United Parcels. Livid, he  
was. "Sal," he said, "standards are really slipping. Time was, some  
tribe pissed you off and you zapped 'em. Quite right too. Teach 'em   
to show some respect. Nowadays divine retribution is just seen as an  
opportunity to organise a rock-concert."

Hermione was getting impatient.
That's all very well, but what's it got to do with me?"

"Obvious, I'd've thought. You only need to reform your character,  
change your behaviour, if you're bothered about what folk'll say  
about you when you ain't around any more." He brooded for a moment or  
two. "Not that it'll make much difference in the long run, they'll  
twist your words to suit themselves, no matter what."

Enlightenment dawned on Madam's features.
"Oh, good! Just what I wanted to hear! And besides, if  I'm a little  
more emphatic there won't be any misunderstandings, will there?"

She turned her head towards the door. "Droopy!" she bawled, "get in  
here. Now! There're some new House Rules I want you to paste on the  
front door!"

Smiling gently, Salazar slowly slid back into the Pensieve.




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 29 18:37:53 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:37:53 +0000
Subject: Retro-game (OT)
Message-ID: <0BE3B9F3-25B5-42C0-BCBC-A8F643AF1FA6@...>

Those that struggled and cursed with pre-GUI computers (ah! that  
heady day when you up-graded to a PC-AT with 1 Meg RAM and a hard  
disk all of ooh! a massive 30 Meg) may remember with nostalgia the  
old text-based adventure games.
Well, if you've a Mac running OS X there's one buried deep in its  
innards, lurking in the UNIX emacs text editor.

Go to Utilities - Terminal, fire it up and type in
emacs -batch -l dunnet
Hit Return and:
"You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes east. In the  
distance you can see that it will eventually fork off."

If you're a Mac user you probably knew about  this already. So why  
didn't you  tell me?

If you're not a Mac user - tsk, tsk, tsk.

Kneasy



From gbannister10 at geoff_bannister.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 29 22:13:36 2005
From: gbannister10 at geoff_bannister.yahoo.invalid (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:13:36 -0000
Subject: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <0BE3B9F3-25B5-42C0-BCBC-A8F643AF1FA6@...>
Message-ID: <dp1n2g+os09@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Kneasy:
> Those that struggled and cursed with pre-GUI computers (ah! that  
> heady day when you up-graded to a PC-AT with 1 Meg RAM and a hard  
> disk all of ooh! a massive 30 Meg) may remember with nostalgia the  
> old text-based adventure games.
> Well, if you've a Mac running OS X there's one buried deep in its  
> innards, lurking in the UNIX emacs text editor.
> 
> Go to Utilities - Terminal, fire it up and type in
> emacs -batch -l dunnet
> Hit Return and:
> "You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes east. In the  
> distance you can see that it will eventually fork off."
> 
> If you're a Mac user you probably knew about  this already. So why  
> didn't you  tell me?
> 

Geoff:
And what about the (in)famous Star Trek based game where you had to 
use your fingers, your head or a calculator to work out the angle at 
which to fire a photon torpedo?

I first met this on a computer called a Triton which a friend of mine 
(currently deputy Network Manager at the National Physics Laboratory 
in South-West London) put together from a kit about 1978....

It had installed RAM of 1K (yes - one Kilobyte) and ran a language 
called Tiny Basic and - joy - also ran ST.

You may be encouraged to know that I am seriously giving thought to 
upgrading to a Mac in the near future - not because of your 
exhortation - but because my eldest son is 
perverting/corrupting/persuading me against PCs. (Doesn't take much 
doing - I still hanker after the good old days of teaching when we 
standardised on Acorn Masters).








From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Thu Dec 29 23:50:36 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:50:36 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <0BE3B9F3-25B5-42C0-BCBC-A8F643AF1FA6@...>
References: <0BE3B9F3-25B5-42C0-BCBC-A8F643AF1FA6@...>
Message-ID: <200512300050.36793.silmariel@...>


Kneasy:
> Those that struggled and cursed with pre-GUI computers (ah! that
> heady day when you up-graded to a PC-AT with 1 Meg RAM and a hard
> disk all of ooh! a massive 30 Meg) may remember with nostalgia the
> old text-based adventure games.
> Well, if you've a Mac running OS X there's one buried deep in its
> innards, lurking in the UNIX emacs text editor.
>
> Go to Utilities - Terminal, fire it up and type in
> emacs -batch -l dunnet
> Hit Return and:
> "You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes east. In the
> distance you can see that it will eventually fork off."
>
> If you're a Mac user you probably knew about  this already. So why
> didn't you  tell me?
>
> If you're not a Mac user - tsk, tsk, tsk.
>

I also didn't know, but it works in my linux terminal with the same command. 
That's the second holyday present, the first being the 'Xmas story. It is not 
in my traditions, so it's the fisrt time I hear it (virtually speaking).

The first game I owned (and ended) was of that kind, Gremlins (1984), in my 
fisrt computer, Commodore 64.

But there's more...

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs.html
Emacs 21 runs on these operating systems regardless of the machine type:

    * AIX 4.3.3 and higher
    * FreeBSD
    * GNU/Linux
    * Mac-OS X
    * MS DOS
    * MS Windows
    * NetBSD
    * OpenBSD
    * Solaris
    * SunOS
    * Ultrix

In desperate cases, you can give a try with a knoppix type distribution. Burn 
a cd with it, it is a linux distribution that does't install ot touch 
anything on your computer, so once you end the session, all memory of it 
dissapears.

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html

I think ewe2 can give us further information on the subect, I'm a lazy linux 
user.

Silmariel



From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 00:08:24 2005
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:08:24 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Retro-game (OT)
References: <dp1n2g+os09@...>
Message-ID: <004f01c60cd5$279a9f90$6701a8c0@...>

>Kneasy
<snip>
>If you're not a Mac user - tsk, tsk, tsk.

>Geoff:
<snip>
>You may be encouraged to know that I am seriously giving thought to
>upgrading to a Mac in the near future - not because of your
>exhortation - but because my eldest son is
>perverting/corrupting/persuading me against PCs. (Doesn't take much
>doing - I still hanker after the good old days of teaching when we
>standardised on Acorn Masters).

Rebecca, chortling:

During the Yankee swap at work week before last, the hottest item to play 
for was an Atari 7800 (remember those?)  Mind you, those of us participating 
in the swap are bonafide geeks of the first order who play with and develop 
new technology all day long, every day. :) The guy who ended up with it took 
it home - his son went wild over it and their family played tournament 
Pacman all this past holiday weekend, practically ignoring the new Xbox 360 
the father gave the son for Xmas.

As far as the Mac vs PC argument, they both have disadvantages - but I'd 
take a PC myself.  Why?  I can always keep Windoze on one partition and a 
blistering Red Hat hack attack on the other ;)  Both GE, who I worked for 
prior, and my current employer eliminated them from the IT environment -  in 
essence, Apple hardware support (replacement of failed hardware under 
warranty) sucks bigtime, and we had loads of metrics to prove it with more 
than 2000 Mac laptops and desktops in our midst at our current company 
alone. Maybe it's different for home use, but for an enterprise environment 
with a 3 year lifecycle (which is really good), that kind of service blows. 
Least if a part fails on an IBM or Dell, I can have it from them the next 
day, rather than 3 weeks.

Just sayin'...to each his own :)

Rebecca












From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 00:20:44 2005
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (Constance Vigilance)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:20:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <004f01c60cd5$279a9f90$6701a8c0@...>
Message-ID: <20051230002044.29735.qmail@...>



Rebecca Bowen <dontask2much at ...> wrote:    Rebecca, chortling:

<snip>
  
As far as the Mac vs PC argument, they both have disadvantages - but I'd 
take a PC myself.  
   
  CV, now:
   
  Me, too. My bad Mac experience was a police department where we standardized on Macs networked to a hosting minicomputer with our police data (it happened to be a Vax). We were part of a neighborhood network (sneaker-net type) of police sharing data. My assignment was to get the data off our VAX and send it to the master computer. Problem. I could see the data on my Mac. But whenever I clicked on the icon (a requirement since there is no such thing as a command line), it would start up our VAX-to-Mac interface protocol. I could not figure out how to get to the raw data. I called Apple and they sent over a specialist. I pointed to the data and handed him a floppy. Put this data on this floppy, please. He futzed around for a half hour or so and then said, sorry. Not possible. See ya!
   
  No love for Macs here. They made a fool of us in investigations. The police force eventually booted the Mac network and installed Microsoft.
   
  CV


		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 02:38:01 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:38:01 +1100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <004f01c60cd5$279a9f90$6701a8c0@...>
References: <dp1n2g+os09@...> <004f01c60cd5$279a9f90$6701a8c0@...>
Message-ID: <20051230023801.GH21593@...>

On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 07:08:24PM -0500, Rebecca Bowen wrote:
> >Kneasy
> <snip>
> >If you're not a Mac user - tsk, tsk, tsk.
 
Ah, platform envy! Back in the day I would hand-compile nethack for DOS just
to play it. There were DOS versions of emacs back then (virulent bloody thing,
I prefer Vim). It was games like Adventure and Zork that helped persuade me to
dual-boot Slackware in the ancient Linux days of 1993 :) Back then anything
remotely resembling BSD code compiled without too much fuss, so SunOS/4.3BSD
hacks of several venerable games made it into early Linux distributions. You
could actually recompile BSD Fortran versions of Adventure, but I doubt you
could now.


> >Geoff:
> <snip>
> >You may be encouraged to know that I am seriously giving thought to
> >upgrading to a Mac in the near future - not because of your
> >exhortation - but because my eldest son is
> >perverting/corrupting/persuading me against PCs. (Doesn't take much
> >doing - I still hanker after the good old days of teaching when we
> >standardised on Acorn Masters).

Try out a g4 or g5 from eBay before you commit serious money. Trouble is, I
don't think Apple hardware (apart from their excellent laptops) is going to
stabilize until after their second Intel platform. If you want to use the
latest OS X, you're going to want a g5 anyway.


> Rebecca, chortling:
> 
> During the Yankee swap at work week before last, the hottest item to play 
> for was an Atari 7800 (remember those?)  Mind you, those of us participating 
> in the swap are bonafide geeks of the first order who play with and develop 
> new technology all day long, every day. :) The guy who ended up with it took 
> it home - his son went wild over it and their family played tournament 
> Pacman all this past holiday weekend, practically ignoring the new Xbox 360 
> the father gave the son for Xmas.

I am the proud owner of a c64 and a c128d and have an external hard drive I
can interface with my linux PC to transfer the scads of disk images on the
net. It's the computing childhood I never had...of course I never caught the
Amiga disease thank heavens.

> As far as the Mac vs PC argument, they both have disadvantages - but I'd 
> take a PC myself.  Why?  I can always keep Windoze on one partition and a 
> blistering Red Hat hack attack on the other ;)  Both GE, who I worked for 
> prior, and my current employer eliminated them from the IT environment -  in 
> essence, Apple hardware support (replacement of failed hardware under 
> warranty) sucks bigtime, and we had loads of metrics to prove it with more 
> than 2000 Mac laptops and desktops in our midst at our current company 
> alone. Maybe it's different for home use, but for an enterprise environment 
> with a 3 year lifecycle (which is really good), that kind of service blows. 
> Least if a part fails on an IBM or Dell, I can have it from them the next 
> day, rather than 3 weeks.

I wonder how educational institutions cope, they have very strong penetration
here in Australian universities and are very popular with the engineering
crowd, oddly enough. The biggest problem seems to be the interesting way they
manage to break hardware with software upgrades which is pretty much the
opposite way in the PC world :) But dem's the breaks with proprietry hardware,
it's the same old scams that IBM invented. Will the industry ever grow up, I
wonder.

-- 
Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 11:17:17 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:17:17 -0000
Subject: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20051230002044.29735.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dp34vt+uufr@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Constance Vigilance <constancevigilance at y...> 
wrote:
>    
>   Me, too. My bad Mac experience was a police department where we standardized on 
Macs networked to a hosting minicomputer with our police data (it happened to be a Vax). 
We were part of a neighborhood network (sneaker-net type) of police sharing data. My 
assignment was to get the data off our VAX and send it to the master computer. Problem. I 
could see the data on my Mac. But whenever I clicked on the icon (a requirement since 
there is no such thing as a command line), it would start up our VAX-to-Mac interface 
protocol. I could not figure out how to get to the raw data. I called Apple and they sent 
over a specialist. I pointed to the data and handed him a floppy. Put this data on this 
floppy, please. He futzed around for a half hour or so and then said, sorry. Not possible. 
See ya!
>    
>   No love for Macs here. They made a fool of us in investigations. The police force 
eventually booted the Mac network and installed Microsoft.
>    

I can understand your frustration - but why isn't your IT manager being 
sweated under the bright lights in a back-room? If anyone is to blame for
the cock-up, he is. But it's the way of the world - he probably got a large 
end-of-year bonus for 'curing' the disaster he should bear responsibility for.

I'd have thought that for a large, flexible network it'd be better to go for a 
proven, easily customisable system. It's no accident that UNIX and its 
derivatives have been around for decades. Better suited to the task than
a Macs/Vax lash-up and much, much better than the notoriously crashable, 
hackable, virus magnet that is Windows.

Still, everyone to their own.
I switched 3 years ago and since then: 
crashes - 0; 
lock-outs - 0; 
viruses - 0;
spy-bots - 0.
Suits me fine.

Kneasy 






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 14:00:07 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:00:07 -0000
Subject: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200512300050.36793.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dp3eh7+oe7m@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> The first game I owned (and ended) was of that kind, Gremlins (1984), in my 
> fisrt computer, Commodore 64.
> 
> But there's more...
> 

You're not wrong.

Overcome with nostalgia, pining for the days of clunky, whirring drives
and a screen slightly larger than a cigarette packet, the old fool scoured
this web thingy. And joy of joys! The original (well, slightly tweaked)
Adventure! 

'83 in Riyadh was the last time I let that little birdie out of his cage.

Now I can get lost in those twisty tunnels again - and maybe this time
I'll be able to get that damn dragon to shift off that oriental carpet.

Kneasy






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 17:10:14 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:10:14 -0000
Subject: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <dp3eh7+oe7m@...>
Message-ID: <dp3plm+iu8@...>

Kneasy: 
> You're not wrong.
> 
> Overcome with nostalgia, pining for the days of clunky, whirring drives
> and a screen slightly larger than a cigarette packet, the old fool scoured
> this web thingy. And joy of joys! The original (well, slightly tweaked)
> Adventure! 
> 
> '83 in Riyadh was the last time I let that little birdie out of his cage.
> 
> Now I can get lost in those twisty tunnels again - and maybe this time
> I'll be able to get that damn dragon to shift off that oriental carpet.
> 

Pippin:
You're not alone. A similar nostalgic impulse led me to locate, joy of joys,
Zork! Gotta watch out for those grues, though.

Pippin






From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 18:10:09 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:10:09 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <dp3eh7+oe7m@...>
References: <dp3eh7+oe7m@...>
Message-ID: <200512301910.09370.silmariel@...>


> Kneasy:
> Overcome with nostalgia, pining for the days of clunky, whirring drives
> and a screen slightly larger than a cigarette packet, the old fool scoured
> this web thingy. And joy of joys! The original (well, slightly tweaked)
> Adventure!
>
> '83 in Riyadh was the last time I let that little birdie out of his cage.
>
> Now I can get lost in those twisty tunnels again - and maybe this time
> I'll be able to get that damn dragon to shift off that oriental carpet.
>

I had decided to get rid off those old programs this year. They are packed in 
a closet (good chance they belong in a museum now).

I have the game in my hands right now, and it's a trip to the past. We (my 
father, that is, I was ten) used to record it with a set of distortions, 
obtaining once in n times, a stable version with freaked storyline or 
graphics. Very fun.

My other all times favourite was Boulder Dash, but I found it in linux distros 
(as Rocks 'n Diamons).

I see in the nethack site it is packaged for MacOSX, I discovered this one not 
so long ago.

I have the feeling that for anyone liking text adventures a trip to some MUDs 
is worth a try. The only graphics you risk to see are ASCII based. they are 
online games/communities, and as such, not a game with start and end, but 
they usually have minigames called quests, both general and coming with 
areas. I read that the discworld mud (nice web site) has a quest based on 
Cluedo, that restarts every given time so that the solution is aleatory.

The wikipedia has a lot of information on them. Just avoid the player killer 
ones. My mud is player killing, I wouldn't use it as example of adventure and 
rpg, even it is rpg-themed, is more oriented to achiever/killer/chatter 
players than to explorer/roleplayer ones. But there are hundreds of them (and 
I'd never paid for playing). 

I find that not having graphics is an advantage, once you cross the barrier of 
losing that beautiful graphics and overcome that problem that usually is the 
command line (get, look, wear, score...), is as with books, you get the 
reward of being inmersed in the words.

Silmariel



From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 20:06:59 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 07:06:59 +1100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <dp3eh7+oe7m@...>
References: <200512300050.36793.silmariel@...> <dp3eh7+oe7m@...>
Message-ID: <20051230200659.GJ21593@...>

On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 02:00:07PM -0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> You're not wrong.
> 
> Overcome with nostalgia, pining for the days of clunky, whirring drives
> and a screen slightly larger than a cigarette packet, the old fool scoured
> this web thingy. And joy of joys! The original (well, slightly tweaked)
> Adventure! 
> 
> '83 in Riyadh was the last time I let that little birdie out of his cage.
> 
> Now I can get lost in those twisty tunnels again - and maybe this time
> I'll be able to get that damn dragon to shift off that oriental carpet.
> 
> Kneasy

Some fun links:

http://www.forkexec.com             which hosts online text adventures
http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/ the homepage of Adventure
http://infodoc.plover.net/          infocom documentation project.

Getting hold of Infocom games isn't easy these days, but I have a few myself
in zcode format. There is a wonderful site http://www.latz.org/infocom/ that
used to have them all until someone noticed :(


-- 
It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a penguin.



From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Fri Dec 30 21:04:10 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:04:10 -0000
Subject: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200512301910.09370.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dp47ca+ce3g@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> 
wrote:
> I have the feeling that for anyone liking text adventures a trip 
to some MUDs 
> is worth a try. <snip of MUD info> as with books, you get the 
> reward of being inmersed in the words.

> Silmariel

Talisman:
For many of his teen years one of my now grown sons was immersed in 
a MUD called Return of the Shadow.

He would beat it and then create a new player and beat it again.  I 
recall one of his auxillary characters who was very strong but had a 
pea-brain--impervious to psychic attack!

Along with the imaginative pleasures of the text, there was the 
additional social interaction--established local friends and new 
online pals--girls included. Lots of fun teaming up to defeat the 
Pale Lady or share the spoils of war, etc. 

One of the other practical benefits of playing a text only game was 
that he learned to type like a deamon--no grumbling or nagging 
involved.


Ewe2 writes:

It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a penguin.

Talisman:
Well, Happy New Year! <veg>






From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 31 17:12:17 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:12:17 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Retro-game (OT)
In-Reply-To: <dp47ca+ce3g@...>
References: <dp47ca+ce3g@...>
Message-ID: <200512311812.17181.silmariel@...>


> Talisman:
> For many of his teen years one of my now grown sons was immersed in
> a MUD called Return of the Shadow.
>
> He would beat it and then create a new player and beat it again.  I
> recall one of his auxillary characters who was very strong but had a
> pea-brain--impervious to psychic attack!
>

We are a bunch of irreverent game staff and are planning to create the 'Disney 
Princess' profession - evolves into different princesses, like a pokemon. 
I've got one of the programmers making the Tardis (he's a fan of Dr. Who). As 
there are only a handfull of MUDs in Spanish, we are in the top ten, because 
all our areas are original.

I mainly rule the Mud by omission - as do not remember which one of the 
Archicancillers of the Unseen University, if no one tells me, it is not 
important - and distribute orders in case the staff comes with a problem or 
wants an opinion, but I usually am not there, I've discovered they are quite 
competent on their own and the general politics are clear.

> Along with the imaginative pleasures of the text, there was the
> additional social interaction--established local friends and new
> online pals--girls included. Lots of fun teaming up to defeat the
> Pale Lady or share the spoils of war, etc.
>

I agree, a Mud differs radically from chats and from massive online games. 
Users mostly know each other, and they hang in the same Muds for years, so 
the ambient isn't the jungle Internet can be, and there are known means to 
make a mud more attractive for girls, as offering houses (the user can create 
the furniture and house objects, as the description of the house). The 
cooperative factor is a pleasure, though I don't usually play.

> Ewe2 writes:
>
> It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a penguin.
>
> Talisman:
> Well, Happy New Year! <veg>


I was eaten by a penguin long ago, it doesn't hurt. Happy New Year!

Silmariel




From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 31 19:33:14 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:33:14 -0000
Subject: Filk: For Old Crowd May Whine
Message-ID: <dp6mdq+hsi2@...>

For Old Crowd May Whine
(sung to the tune of "Auld Lang Syne")

Should Old Crowd members post a lot
Or argue their plot lines
Their predictions may miss the mark
But help to pass the time

For Old Crowd may whine, my friend
The Old Crowd may whine,
We'll figure out that ending yet,
Though Old Crowd may whine

We've read the books and interviews
Where JKR keeps mum
She'll never let us know the truth
Until the last book's done

For Old Crowd may whine, my friend
The Old Crowd may whine,
We'll figure out that ending yet,
Though Old Crowd may whine

Snape may be good guy or be bad
It could go either way
And Lupin might eat all his friends
If they piss him off one day

Is Albus Dumbledore alive?
Or did he buy the farm?
Was that a drop of dragon's blood?
Let's not get too alarmed!

For Old Crowd may whine, my friend
The Old Crowd may whine,
We'll figure out that ending yet,
Though Old Crowd may whine

Was that young girl there really Tonks?
Her patronus was quite lame
Is Snape a dragon in disguise?
Will Voldy curse his name?

Will young Harry Potter survive?
Or die saving the day?
Can we keep our discussions alive?
Or will we fade away?

For Old Crowd may whine, my friend
The Old Crowd may whine,
We'll figure out that ending yet,
Though running out of time!

Copyright 2005 by Randy Estes  







From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sat Dec 31 22:11:55 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:11:55 -0000
Subject: Lupin / Mary Sue / Gary Stu / Bloody Ending / (not Ragnarok)
Message-ID: <dp6vnb+qaca@...>

Pippin wroter in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3579 :

<< If he doesn't get over his passivity, he'll be unable to lead the
werewolves, and if he does, he'll be a complete Gary Stu. >>

So? JKR has shown no sign of trying to avoid Mary SUes -- Hermione's
beautifu appearance at the Yule Ball in GoF, Ginny in OoP being a GOOD
Seeker who'd rather be a Chaser (!) and Ginny in HBP being a Third
Twin, Lily in the Pensieve incident...

Nora sig'ged in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3580 :

<< Nora finds 'complete Gary Stu' to usually show up as Harry in
fanboy fics, who has both a harem and massive super powerz  >>

There IS canon basis for both -- enough girls WANT him (e.g. ROmilda
Vane) that he could have a harem if he wanted to (even with my belief
that the girls who asked him to accompany him to the Yule Ball were
only interested in starting the Ball with a Triwizard Champion, not in
Harry) and he does have unusual powers like throwing off the Imperius
Curse with only a few minutes of practise, and making a corporeal
Patronus in third year.

Randy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3589 :

<<  Harry must somehow defeat Bellatrix. Perhaps Narcissa kills
Bellatrix to redeem herself (perhaps after Lucius or Draco dies).
Neville has to finally mature and kill somebody or else be killed
because we cannot leave him half-grown up. >>

It seems to be generally believed that Neville will kill Bellatrix. If
it is necessary to kill some human to be grown-up, I expect never to
be grown-up. 

I like a scenario in which Harry does something stupid and Snape dies
saving Harry's life from the consequences at Voldemort's hands, Harry
tries to refuse to escape without Snape, and Snape gets some nasty
sarcastic last words telling Harry to get away because Harry is the
only one who can kill VOldemort, which is a goal important enough to
Snape that he's willing to die for it, but not to spend another minute
enduring Harry's insufferable company. Harry saves Neville's life
(maybe, bitterly, by killing Bellatrix when she has Neville at her
mercy in a duel) and then Neville saves Harry's life AND kills
Voldemort, maybe by flinging himself upon Voldemort (and knocking both
of them through that Veil or into another convenient magical
death-trap) when Voldemort has Harry at his mercy in THEIR duel.

<< PS I know that everyone will ignore all of my comments like usual
and wait for some other post by a more respected member of the OC. >>

Maybe more people would read to the ends of your posts if they didn't
have to scroll through so much quoted material first.