From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  1 07:36:14 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:36:14 -0000
Subject: There's not much to go on
In-Reply-To: <da15rq+6te3@...>
Message-ID: <da2rpe+isjf@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
<snip>
> 
> You know what this reminds me of?
> "Kill the spare."

Ah yes, exactly! He didn't kill Harry because he had a use for him 
(blood of my enemy) and wanted to make an example of him, although 
that wasn't such a good idea in the end!

So what plans for Neville, what use is a knobbled infant Neville? A 
spy in the ranks needs to receive orders and/or convey information, 
is Trevor transmitting? Is that why he keeps getting 'lost'. Neville 
was searching for a 'lost' Trevor when he first encounterd Harry on 
the Hogwarts Express and who should show up shortly thereafter? One 
Malfoy Jnr plus goons. Is Trevor a homing toad?
> 
<snip>


> 
> Despite all the brou-haha about Snape and James, I've sometimes
> wondered why Sevvy reacts so strongly to Harry. Could part of it be
> because as an expert Legilimens he can sense Voldy lurking in the
> depths of that adolescent mind? But why such a down on Neville?
> Can he sense something in his mind too?


Well in that same FAQ reply JKR says: "As you saw in 'Order of the 
Phoenix,' however, Neville is not without his own latent strengths."

All this time we've been thinking Snape is down on Neville because 
he's a numpty but is he actually conscious of the subtle science and 
exact art of the softly simmering cauldron that is Neville's brain? 

It's funny that this JKR's faq response, which made me despairing, 
is throwing out some intriguing possibilities. Which leads me to:

"As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to 
readers, but to my characters."

Dumbledore is a character so I take we can happily nix his 
interpretation then! Yippeee.

Regards
Jo








From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  1 10:46:07 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:46:07 -0000
Subject: There's not much to go on
In-Reply-To: <da2rpe+isjf@...>
Message-ID: <da36tf+10m60@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> wrote:
> <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> > 
> > You know what this reminds me of?
> > "Kill the spare."
> 
> Ah yes, exactly! He didn't kill Harry because he had a use for him 
> (blood of my enemy) and wanted to make an example of him, although 
> that wasn't such a good idea in the end!
>

Kneasy:
The more I think about this, the less satisfactory the whole episode seems.

OK, the simplistic explanation (from DD) is that Voldy was forewarned
that a usurper in pampers had the potential to spoil his party. There were
two candidates but he picks on Harry as his primary target, so off he trots to
sort the little bugger out. It all goes pear-shaped, Voldy has a fit of the
vapours and Harry gets who knows what as extra software.

Things to consider.
If DD and the collective brains of the MoM were uncertain as to which of
the two were likeliest to be Voldys!Bane it's a racing certainty that Voldy
couldn't know either. (The MoM's still not certain according to the label on
the Prophecy globe, though DD admits to no doubts). Voldy being Voldy he 
was probably going to cover all possibilities and knock off both - when the
opportunity arose.

The betrayal of the Potters presented just such an opportunity. The
frustrating thing is that we don't know what was going on with the
Longbottoms, though logic dictates that if DD thought either of the sprogs
could be the one, then both were in hiding.

Similarly, both would have protective spells poured over 'em like molasses.
What is interesting is that Peter - or whoever - told Voldy where to find
the Potters but the presence of protective spells either slipped his mind
or he didn't know. Now if you trust someone so completely that you make
them SK, wouldn't they also know about the protection? Probably - unless
someone like DD suggested that you kept quiet about it. Why do that?
Well, the spells don't just 'protect', they have an offensive capability too.
Harry is a minefield, primed and ready for Voldy to wander along and
self-destruct. 

Dual-purpose magic; protect and destroy. Which function would DD 
consider to be the most important? Protecting one boy or destroying a 
menace to the whole world? If he really is the war-leader as is claimed
then there can only be one answer. Which raises the possibility  that
the leak re Godric's Hollow was deliberate. It was a trap; Harry the bait
and the 'ancient' magic the jaws. 

There seems to have been two protective spells -  the 'blood' protection
invoked by Lily's death that allows Harry protection from *all* forms of
malign magic if he's in the family abode, and the 'ancient' magic invoked
by DD that appears to be specifically anti-Voldy and applicable anywhere,
not just in Privet Drive. Since the graveyard the anti-Voldy spell is now 
defunct, indeed Voldy makes a big thing out of it "Look lads! I can touch 
him!" but it's implied that the Privet Drive protection still stands.

All well and good - but nobody seems to be thinking about Neville.
*If* he had the same protections as Harry (and why wouldn't he?) then his
situation is the reverse of Harry's. The 'blood' protection was never invoked
- his parents are still alive, *but* the 'ancient' magic has never been tested 
- he's never faced Voldy - yet. That could be an interesting encounter. Is
this protective magic the 'latent strength' that Jo tells us Neville possesses? 
 
> Jo:
> So what plans for Neville, what use is a knobbled infant Neville? A 
> spy in the ranks needs to receive orders and/or convey information, 
> is Trevor transmitting? Is that why he keeps getting 'lost'. Neville 
> was searching for a 'lost' Trevor when he first encounterd Harry on 
> the Hogwarts Express and who should show up shortly thereafter? One 
> Malfoy Jnr plus goons. Is Trevor a homing toad?

Kneasy:
The actions of the DEs should be a clue, but I'm damned if I can suss it
out. The story is that they expected the Longbottoms to know what had 
happened to Voldy, yet the morning after GH  the entire WW was talking
about nothing else. What else was there to know? The Potters were dead, 
Voldy had gone down, defeated by a burbling infant. Why confront the 
Longbottoms? What could Frank and Alice possibly tell them that everybody
else wasn't talking about? With the little we know about GH and the 24 Hours
their actions don't make much sense. Unless they suspected that  Neville
had the same protections as Harry  and they wanted to find out just what
effect the protections had. That might make some sort of sense - identify 
the magic, see if there's a counter-spell. Or - they knew that the vaprous
fraction of Voldy (that part I regard as Sally!Essence) is to all intents and
purposes immortal and would have survived the magical encounter.

The thing is, if as surmised above Neville did have the same protections
as Harry, he'd be absolutely helpless when the DEs came a-calling. His
parents are still alive and it ain't Voldy that's looming in the living room,
so neither protection applies. Neville is wide open. If you had the same
nasty disposition as the Lestranges, what would you do? Kill him or get
clever and maybe try and turn the tables on your enemies? Is Neville
the repository of a bit of DE deviosity?

If he is, I'll bet it'll be triggered when (if) Neville encounters Voldy.  

> Jo:
> It's funny that this JKR's faq response, which made me despairing, 
> is throwing out some intriguing possibilities. Which leads me to:
> 
> "As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to 
> readers, but to my characters."
> 
> Dumbledore is a character so I take we can happily nix his 
> interpretation then! Yippeee.

Kneasy:
Oh good.
Mind you the interpretation of prophecies is a mugs game.
Hear a cryptic prophecy and then rationalise subsequent events so
that they match the assumed prophecy conditions.
DD really should know better. 





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  1 12:41:31 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:41:31 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role (was There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <da36tf+10m60@...>
Message-ID: <da3dlr+mhn8@...>

Kneasy:

> If he really is the war-leader as is claimed

What claim would that be, then?

David






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  1 13:53:28 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:53:28 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role (was There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <da3dlr+mhn8@...>
Message-ID: <da3hso+ak39@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Kneasy:
> 
> > If he really is the war-leader as is claimed
> 
> What claim would that be, then?
> 

Hm. One of the awkward squad.
Mostly it's in posts to the boards.

OK, I'll admit that for this phase of the Voldy war the claim would be  
implicit rather than explicit, but who else has been leading the forces
of righteousness? Fudge opted out at the end of GoF.

The earlier phase, which covers GH, is less certain. For sure the MoM
knew which side it stood on - officially anyway, but it can't have been 
all that effective else why form the Order - many of the members of 
which seem to have been Ministry employees. Hamstrung by Voldy 
agents or supporters perhaps? If so, that'd make DD and his merry band
the only effective counter to Voldy and DD as the leader of the struggle 
- de facto if not de jure.

Besides which the alternative would seem to be Crouch Snr. - who's a bit 
low on man-management skills IMO. Unless anyone can come up with
other alternatives?

Kneasy





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  1 15:55:47 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:55:47 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role (was There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <da3hso+ak39@...>
Message-ID: <da3p23+ch07@...>

Kneasy:

> OK, I'll admit that for this phase of the Voldy war the claim would 
be  
> implicit rather than explicit, but who else has been leading the 
forces
> of righteousness? Fudge opted out at the end of GoF.

Oh, I'll grant you that Dumbledore is leading *something*, and that he 
is effective in much of what he undertakes.

But that does not mean he automatically fits into the template of 'war 
leader'.

He's just an academic thrust to the fore through a combination of 
specialist knowledge and government incompetence.  He's not 
necessarily going to take decisions based on an overriding commitment 
to 'war aims', he's just doing the best he can in difficult 
circumstances.

David, thinking that if you all buy this he might get a job with 
Radovan Karadzic's defence team





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  1 17:30:39 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:30:39 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role (was There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <da3p23+ch07@...>
Message-ID: <da3ujv+8c2f@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> 
> David, thinking that if you all buy this he might get a job with 
> Radovan Karadzic's defence team

It's good training.
Any regular poster soon learns how battle desperately in the service of
a lost cause.
"Then he will strip his sleeve and show his scars [...] but he'll remember,
and with advantages, what feats he did that day."

Hang on a minute -  we won that one!

Kneasy





From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul  3 06:37:47 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 06:37:47 -0000
Subject: Astronomy, telescopes and enchanted ceilings
Message-ID: <da813r+8tse@...>

Thanks to Shaun for an indisputable answer to my question.

Kaitlin wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/1945 :

<< Is it the same conditions as outside, or do the maintenance
people/elves decide what weather the ceiling should have? >>

The ceiling matched the weather outside. SS: "Harry looked upward and
saw a velvety black ceiling dotted with stars. He heard Hermione
whisper, "Its bewitched to look like the sky outside. I read about it
in Hogwarts, A History." It was hard to believe there was a ceiling
there at all, and that the Great Hall didn't simply open on to the
heavens."

CoS: "the bewitched ceiling, which always mirrored the sky outside" 

Once upon a time, there was a dedicated HPfGU poster named Nick, who
took a day trip to Chepstow specifically to violate the 'Danger: Keep
Out' signs by poking around the ruins of Chepstow castle, as Jo and Di
had as children. He posted that this investigation had confirmed his
belief that Chepstow castle was the model for Hogwarts castle, and
that the roofless Great Hall of the ruin had inspired the idea of the
enchanted ceiling that always looks like the sky above.

Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_
old_crowd/message/1949 :

<< I think even magical telescopes are probably delicate things
that wouldn't take well to being constantly moved aside to make way
for the tables, or being exposed to the grease and steam of food
service. >>

The list in SS of things that students are required to bring to
Hogwarts includes 'telescope set' (between 'glass or crystal phials'
and 'brass scales'). 

"Hagrid wouldn't let Harry buy a solid gold cauldron, either ("It says
pewter on yer list"), but they got a nice set of scales for weighing
potion ingredients and a collapsible brass telescope." 

"They had to study the night skies through their telescopes every
Wednesday at midnight and learn the names of different stars and the
movements of the planets."

As it says 'their telescopes', I assume they're using the ones they
bought in Diagon Alley, really spyglasses rather than telescopes, but
whose 'collapsible' way of folding up created the verb 'to telescope'
for things (other than Freudian references) that get longer or
shorter.





From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul  4 23:20:57 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 16:20:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: There's not much to go on
In-Reply-To: <da36tf+10m60@...>
Message-ID: <20050704232057.1120.qmail@...>

> Kneasy:
> The actions of the DEs should be a clue, but I'm damned if I can 
> suss it out. The story is that they expected the Longbottoms to 
> know what had happened to Voldy, yet the morning after GH  the 
> entire WW was talking about nothing else. What else was there to 
> know? The Potters were dead, Voldy had gone down, defeated by a 
> burbling infant. Why confront the Longbottoms? What could Frank 
> and Alice possibly tell them that everybody else wasn't talking 
> about?


Personally I think the whole Longbottom attack was Lucius Malfoy's
diabolical attempt to get his nutcluster sister-in-law and her limpet
husband out of Malfoy Manor because it was getting crowded around the
dining room table.  

The WW was talking not so much about what happened to Voldemort as
what didn't happen to Harry - he didn't die.  No one seems to have
known or tried to guess what exactly happened to V.  It is the kind
of detail that ardent culties like Bellatrix might be on fire to find
out.  Assuming that aurors would have the info - and especially two
aurors that V. was known to be interested in - is not such a large
stretch.

I lean to Red Hen's theory that including Barty Jr. in the group was
an attempt to bring down Barty Sr. before he became Minister of Magic
and set out on a (you should pardon the expression) witch hunt for
all DE's, suspected DE's, etc. etc. The WW doesn't seem like it goes
in for long term strategizing; Barty Sr. is a standout in that
regard.  Everyone else just wants a good party and then go home to
forget the whole thing ever happened.  Barty Sr. wants to exterminate
DE's.  Barty Jr. turning out to be a DE would raise a lot of
questions about Barty Sr in many peoples' minds ("can't even raise
his own kid"  "always thought he was a little too, you know,
hardnose").

And there was probably a lot of old-fashioned lashing out too.  The
Dark Lord - the all powerful - was apparently defeated by a toddler. 
How utterly humiliating for everyone who'd followed him so devotedly.
 It's the DE equivalent of kicking furniture.

Magda

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul  5 00:12:41 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:12:41 -0000
Subject: There's not much to go on
In-Reply-To: <20050704232057.1120.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dacj9p+p9vc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich
<mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > Kneasy:
> > The actions of the DEs should be a clue, but I'm damned if I can 
> > suss it out. The story is that they expected the Longbottoms to 
> > know what had happened to Voldy, yet the morning after GH  the 
> > entire WW was talking about nothing else. What else was there to 
> > know? The Potters were dead, Voldy had gone down, defeated by a 
> > burbling infant. Why confront the Longbottoms? What could Frank 
> > and Alice possibly tell them that everybody else wasn't talking 
> > about?
> 

Pippin:
Everybody thought (or hoped) Voldemort was gone for good except
the Pensieve Four --they trusted his immortality spells had worked 
and they believed he must be still alive somewhere. 'They alone
tried to find me."

Magda: 
> Personally I think the whole Longbottom attack was Lucius Malfoy's
 diabolical attempt to get his nutcluster sister-in-law and her
limpet husband out of Malfoy Manor because it was getting crowded 
around the dining room table.  

Pippin:
Nope. It was ESE!Lupin's plan to get the only DE's who knew Sirius
hadn't betrayed the Potters into Azkaban. He knew that  the only 
thing that would  make them risk blowing their cover was information 
that the Longbottoms  knew what had become of their master.  
Who else but the real spy in the Order could have persuaded them?

Then, of course, Lupin tipped off the Order, who arrived a little
too late to save the Longbottoms.

Pippin





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul  5 15:05:36 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:05:36 -0000
Subject: There's not much to go on
In-Reply-To: <20050704232057.1120.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dae7k0+mnpj@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Personally I think the whole Longbottom attack was Lucius Malfoy's
> diabolical attempt to get his nutcluster sister-in-law and her limpet
> husband out of Malfoy Manor because it was getting crowded around the
> dining room table.  
> 

Kneasy:
Yeah,  they'd probably chewed the carpets to bits, too.
We mutter about motivations (as hinted at in canon) but sometimes it's
great fun to try and cobble together the most mundane motive one can
think of which then results in the most awful consequences. 

GH for instance - Lily couldn't be bothered to cook so James popped
out to the pub for a pie and a pint and Voldy followed him home. If only
he hadn't left his Invisibility Cloak with DD.... 

> 
> I lean to Red Hen's theory that including Barty Jr. in the group was
> an attempt to bring down Barty Sr. before he became Minister of Magic
> and set out on a (you should pardon the expression) witch hunt for
> all DE's, suspected DE's, etc. etc. The WW doesn't seem like it goes
> in for long term strategizing; Barty Sr. is a standout in that
> regard.  Everyone else just wants a good party and then go home to
> forget the whole thing ever happened.  Barty Sr. wants to exterminate
> DE's.  Barty Jr. turning out to be a DE would raise a lot of
> questions about Barty Sr in many peoples' minds ("can't even raise
> his own kid"  "always thought he was a little too, you know,
> hardnose").

Kneasy:
I've only visited Red Hen once and that was ages back. Didn't see this
one, but it's been suggested on the HPfGU board too - modesty forbids
that I name the poster, but there were a couple of posts on it Sept/Oct
last year - 113423, 116046. (There was some earlier stuff as well, mostly
PoA and the Dementors -  Fudge sent them after Harry, not Sirius - on 
instructions.) Fudge could be in it up to is neck. Just the sort of devious 
conspiratorial skull-duggery I relish. Didn't get much response though. 
Hope Red Hen did better. 
Sometimes I worry that there aren't enough evil-minded fans about. 
Let's face it, it's exactly the sort of stuff one would expect nasty folk like 
DEs to get up to, isn't it?
 
> 
> And there was probably a lot of old-fashioned lashing out too.  The
> Dark Lord - the all powerful - was apparently defeated by a toddler. 
> How utterly humiliating for everyone who'd followed him so devotedly.
>  It's the DE equivalent of kicking furniture.
>

Kneasy:
So incredible that they probably didn't believe it.
Yet - although Draco probably heard the tale n times back at Malfoy 
Towers,  he tries to co-opt Harry into his clique. Was dear old dad
behind this - with possibly unpleasant and probably life-shortening
consequences for Harry in mind - or did Lucius suspect that Voldy,
or part of him, was perched in Harry's cranium and that Harry could be
the new Slytherin superstar?
I've often wondered about that little episode - who knew what and when?






From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul  5 23:44:01 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:44:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: There's not much to go on
In-Reply-To: <dae7k0+mnpj@...>
Message-ID: <20050705234401.6069.qmail@...>

> Kneasy:
> 
> Yet - although Draco probably heard the tale n times back at Malfoy
> Towers,  he tries to co-opt Harry into his clique. Was dear old dad
> behind this - with possibly unpleasant and probably life-shortening
> consequences for Harry in mind - or did Lucius suspect that Voldy,
> or part of him, was perched in Harry's cranium and that Harry could
> be the new Slytherin superstar?
> I've often wondered about that little episode - who knew what and
> when?


Lucius wanted Draco to befriend Harry for the same reasons that
Lucius befriends Fudge and hands out money to worthy WW causes: it's
a status thing and the Malfoys collect status like other people
collect stamps.  It's also protective colouration: who's going to
believe that you're on the side of badness when you're palling around
with the Minister of Magic and your son is Harry Potter's buddy?

Lucius Malfoy is much smarter than his son, although not as bright as
he thinks he is.  

Magda

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul  6 11:41:17 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:41:17 -0000
Subject: Voldy needs YOU
Message-ID: <dagg0t+gefe@...>


Exciting vacancies for the ambitious and disaffected in HBP?

Surely JK isn't going to spring the DE's from Azkaban *again*, 
they're not doing the hokey-cokey from chokey you know.

So who's ripe for Voldy's recruitment drive?

Fudge
Percy
Umbridge
Uncle Algy
Baggy

They're all in line to visit the local tattoo parlour
..entrance 
fee - one death (accredited).

Let's not forget the youth contingent either, if they ain't hanging 
with the DA's are they down with the VD's (Voldy's darlin's)?

Major Malfoy Minor, commander in chief
?

Do we anticipate gang violence in the corridors of Hogwart's, 
rumbles in the playground, love across the divide leading to 
assisted suicide (oh no that's Romeo and Juliet isn't it)?

Regards
Jo





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul  6 13:59:12 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:59:12 -0000
Subject: Voldy needs YOU
In-Reply-To: <dagg0t+gefe@...>
Message-ID: <dago3g+cdvm@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> 
wrote:
> 
> Exciting vacancies for the ambitious and disaffected in HBP?
> 
> Surely JK isn't going to spring the DE's from Azkaban *again*, 
> they're not doing the hokey-cokey from chokey you know.
> 
> So who's ripe for Voldy's recruitment drive?
> 
> Fudge
> Percy
> Umbridge
> Uncle Algy
> Baggy

Fudge and Bagman definitely....thought this for a long time. Maybe 
Umbridge as the Devil in the cardigan and headband ala "Devil in the 
Blue Dress".  Percy will redeem himself just in time to be offed by 
Voldy or Bella. Uncle Algy..hmmm depends on what gift he gives 
Neville this time. Jury is still out on him
> They're all in line to visit the local tattoo parlour
..entrance 
> fee - one death (accredited).
> 
> Let's not forget the youth contingent either, if they ain't hanging 
> with the DA's are they down with the VD's (Voldy's darlin's)?
> 
> Major Malfoy Minor, commander in chief
?
> 
> Do we anticipate gang violence in the corridors of Hogwart's, 
> rumbles in the playground, love across the divide leading to 
> assisted suicide (oh no that's Romeo and Juliet isn't it)?

Will the other houses all gang up on Slytherin or is there a evil 
Hufflepuff in the wings. 

> Regards
> Jo

Also, Will we find out who the good Slytherin is? I say it is Pansy 
and just becasue she was named after a flower as was Lily, then again 
so was Petunia.  Oh I can hardly wait
> 
Congrats to the Brits on getting the Summer Olympics, esp after 
Jacques comment on your food..HA!

Fran
oh, side note..discovered something which yall may know....if you 
want to just show the title of the message listed with out other 
info, go to the bottom of the list of messages and click on simple...





From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul  6 14:41:46 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:41:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Guardian Competition (May contain a spoiler?)
Message-ID: <20050706144146.85543.qmail@...>

The Guardian is running a competition in which participants have to write an account of the death
of Dumbledore, in the style of another author.

This one in particular made me chuckle:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1521840,00.html

Catherine, with two big book events to look forward to next week (Jasper Fforde in Norwich on the 14th)


		
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From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 13:43:38 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:43:38 -0000
Subject: Guardian Competition (May contain a spoiler?)
In-Reply-To: <20050706144146.85543.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dajbia+83d7@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman <catorman at y...> wrote:
> The Guardian is running a competition in which participants have to write an account of 
the death of Dumbledore, in the style of another author.

Gene Roddenberry:

"He's dead, Ron"

Pippin





From dk59us at dk59us.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 18:10:25 2005
From: dk59us at dk59us.yahoo.invalid (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:10:25 -0000
Subject: Invisibility Cloak (was Re: There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <dae7k0+mnpj@...>
Message-ID: <dajr6h+4koa@...>

Kneasy:
> If only he hadn't left his Invisibility Cloak with DD....

"Your father left this in my possession before he died."

Indeed why _did_ James do that, anyway?  Seems it would be useful to
have around when you're hiding from the greatest dark wizard in a
century, doesn't it?  Even if Voldy could see through it (which we
don't know he can, do we?), his minions probably couldn't.

But even if James _didn_'t think it would come in handy, why would he
go out of his way to give it to Dumbledore?  Did he think Dumbledore
might need it?

The line on DD's note to Harry brings up an image of James being
ushered into Dumbledore's office, clearing his throat and saying, "If
I don't make it, sir, will you see to it that this gets passed on to
my son?"
"Of course I will.  Off you go, then."
And the brave lad marches off on his hopeless mission.

Then again, maybe it was left in DD's possession a bit closer to the
front...perhaps it might explain how the word got out so quickly as to
what happened at Godric's Hollow.

Just a (probably addled) thought...

Cheers,

Eustace_Scrubb







From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 19:05:02 2005
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:05:02 -0500
Subject: Thoughts for those in the UK
Message-ID: <009601c58326$ca79c120$210110ac@MainDesktop>

Hi --

I just wanted to touch base here and let all those in the UK know that you 
are in my thoughts and prayers today.  I hope that you and your families and 
friends are all well and safe.  Words cannot express my sorrow at this 
senseless tragedy.

Love to all --

Penny 





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 19:07:33 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:07:33 -0000
Subject: Invisibility Cloak (was Re: There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <dajr6h+4koa@...>
Message-ID: <dajuhl+sv3f@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" <dk59us at y...> wrote:
> Kneasy:
> > If only he hadn't left his Invisibility Cloak with DD....
> 
> "Your father left this in my possession before he died."
> 
> Indeed why _did_ James do that, anyway?  Seems it would be useful to
> have around when you're hiding from the greatest dark wizard in a
> century, doesn't it?  Even if Voldy could see through it (which we
> don't know he can, do we?), his minions probably couldn't.
> 
> But even if James _didn_'t think it would come in handy, why would he
> go out of his way to give it to Dumbledore?  Did he think Dumbledore
> might need it?
> 
> The line on DD's note to Harry brings up an image of James being
> ushered into Dumbledore's office, clearing his throat and saying, "If
> I don't make it, sir, will you see to it that this gets passed on to
> my son?"
> "Of course I will.  Off you go, then."
> And the brave lad marches off on his hopeless mission.
> 
> Then again, maybe it was left in DD's possession a bit closer to the
> front...perhaps it might explain how the word got out so quickly as to
> what happened at Godric's Hollow.
> 

Yup.
That cloak left with DD is one of the minor flapping loose ends that it
would be nice to see cleared up. It's so .... odd given the circumstances.

Mind you, it is possible to fit it into yet another of the (probably rightly)
disregarded theories that sprout, mushroom-like, from my keyboard.
The one about the Prophecy - you know, the interpretation that considers
that "neither can live" refers to James and Lily. If DD had figured out that 
they were slated to turn up their toes,  then hanging on to a few useful
momentoes to pass on to Harry could almost be considered reasonable.
After all, since DD can supposedly make himself invisible without  the
use of a Cloak, why otherwise leave it with him?

Could get an answer in 9 days time, though it's doubtful, it looks like the 
sort of small beer stuff that gets an explicatory sentence or two in the final
wash-up of the final volume as part of the "I'm glad you asked me that, Watson,"
finale.
If it does get a mention in book 6, then it's odds on that this little by-play
is probably more important (clue-wise) than it appears at first sight.

Kneasy





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 19:24:23 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:24:23 -0000
Subject: Invisibility Cloak (was Re: There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <dajr6h+4koa@...>
Message-ID: <dajvh7+edsh@...>

Eustace Scrubb wrote:
> Indeed why _did_ James do that, anyway?  Seems it would be useful to
> have around when you're hiding from the greatest dark wizard in a
> century, doesn't it?  Even if Voldy could see through it (which we
> don't know he can, do we?), his minions probably couldn't.
> 
> But even if James _didn_'t think it would come in handy, why would he
> go out of his way to give it to Dumbledore?  Did he think Dumbledore
> might need it?

Ginger:
Maybe he was planning to let the Order use it.  

"Say, Albus, Lily and I are taking the baby into hiding today and 
Benjy needed this, but he never showed up to pick it up.  Could you 
get it to him and hang onto it when he's done with it.  I do hope he's 
ok.  Thank goodness for that Fidelius Charm.  I won't need the cloak 
with that.  Use it as you please for the Order."

Ginger, relieved that Carolyn is ok, and hoping others are too.





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 20:27:35 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:27:35 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Thoughts for those in the UK
In-Reply-To: <009601c58326$ca79c120$210110ac@MainDesktop>
References: <009601c58326$ca79c120$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <a636324605070713274b14e28c@...>

Penny said it better than I could, so I will just say, "Ditto."

On 7/7/05, Penny & Bryce <pennylin at ...> wrote:
> 
>  Hi --
> 
> I just wanted to touch base here and let all those in the UK know that you 
> 
> are in my thoughts and prayers today. I hope that you and your families 
> and 
> friends are all well and safe. Words cannot express my sorrow at this 
> senseless tragedy.
> 
> Love to all --
> 
> Penny 
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 20:46:16 2005
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:46:16 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Thoughts for those in the UK
In-Reply-To: <a636324605070713274b14e28c@...>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F1003AE3F95F0E9FA6D4583D0D80@...>

> >  Hi --
> >
> > I just wanted to touch base here and let all those in the UK know that 
>you
> >
> > are in my thoughts and prayers today. I hope that you and your families
> > and friends are all well and safe. Words cannot express my sorrow at 
>this
> > senseless tragedy.
> >
> > Love to all --
> >
> > Penny


Breaking the rules (slightly) to add a 'me too' to what Penny said.

Parker





From s_ings at s_ings.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 21:29:23 2005
From: s_ings at s_ings.yahoo.invalid (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:29:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Thoughts for those in the UK
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F1003AE3F95F0E9FA6D4583D0D80@...>
Message-ID: <20050707212923.32677.qmail@...>


--- Parker Brown Nesbit <pbnesbit at ...> wrote:

> > >  Hi --
> > >
> > > I just wanted to touch base here and let all
> those in the UK know that 
> >you
> > >
> > > are in my thoughts and prayers today. I hope
> that you and your families
> > > and friends are all well and safe. Words cannot
> express my sorrow at 
> >this
> > > senseless tragedy.
> > >
> > > Love to all --
> > >
> > > Penny
> 
> 
Parker:
> Breaking the rules (slightly) to add a 'me too' to
> what Penny said.
> 
Sheryll:
Breaking them further to add a 'me as well', to
Penny's well said email.

Sheryll 

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From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 22:17:07 2005
From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:17:07 -0000
Subject: A Big Thanks
Message-ID: <dak9l3+8shi@...>

It's not my place to speak for others here - although I'm sure I do. 
It's been fantastic to see all the good wishes and out pourings of 
solidarity today.

Like many Londoners (I'm now living in exile), I lived through the 
IRA bombings and the fear that engendered - the bombs, the bomb 
scares and the evacuations. Like many of you there is almost nothing 
I hold dearer than my belief in certain fundamental freedoms. The 
terrorists have killed and maimed today. They have frightened 
people, but they haven't cowed us.

What has been most apparent here is the stoicism: it was always 
going to happen. It was just a question of when, and how bad. Now it 
has happened. For the people who have been affected, my heart is 
with them. I'm still waiting to hear from a couple of friends who 
work in that area and it's painful. But, whatever has happened, we 
will move on. In the words of a certain professor "We are only as 
strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided....Differences of 
habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and 
our hearts are open". 

The strength and unity today has felt amazing.

Ali







From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 22:21:05 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:21:05 -0000
Subject: Thoughts for those in the UK
In-Reply-To: <20050707212923.32677.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dak9sh+opcj@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> --- Parker Brown Nesbit <pbnesbit at m...> wrote:
> 
> > > >  Hi --
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to touch base here and let all
> > those in the UK know that 
> > >you
> > > >
> > > > are in my thoughts and prayers today. I hope
> > that you and your families
> > > > and friends are all well and safe. Words cannot
> > express my sorrow at 
> > >this
> > > > senseless tragedy.
> > > >
> > > > Love to all --
> > > >
> > > > Penny
> > 
> > 
> Parker:
> > Breaking the rules (slightly) to add a 'me too' to
> > what Penny said.
> > 
> Sheryll:
> Breaking them further to add a 'me as well', to
> Penny's well said email.
> 
> Sheryll 
> 

Rules aren't rules unless you break them.....a me three here. I truly 
am sorry!
Fran






From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 23:45:02 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Invisibility Cloak (was Re: There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <dajuhl+sv3f@...>
Message-ID: <20050707234502.54329.qmail@...>



--- Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...> wrote:

> Yup.
> That cloak left with DD is one of the minor flapping loose ends
> that it would be nice to see cleared up. It's so .... odd given the
> circumstances.


Why is it odd?  Moody lent his invisibility cloak to the Order so
that members could guard the prophecy in the MOM.  Why wouldn't James
- going into hiding under the Fidelimus (or whatever) Spell and
knowing he wouldn't be needing his cloak - loan it to Dumbledore for
Order purposes?

Magda

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From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 21:36:48 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:36:48 -0000
Subject: Thoughts for those in the UK
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F1003AE3F95F0E9FA6D4583D0D80@...>
Message-ID: <dak79g+bdp8@...>

I haven't been posting here (or on any other HP forums) lately, but 
when I heard this news, I came here.

I know that we have a lot of UK members, including many from London.
I very much hope that none of you or yours were caught in 
these horrible attacks.  This must be a very stressful time to live
in London.  My thoughts are with you.

-- Judy





From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul  7 21:15:04 2005
From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:15:04 EDT
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Thoughts for those in the UK
Message-ID: <id.07072005171504.00000@FPE>

Penny wrote:
<<<Hi --

I just wanted to touch base here and let all those in the UK know that you  are in my thoughts and prayers today.  I hope that you and your families and  friends are all well and safe.  Words cannot express my sorrow at this  senseless tragedy.

Love to all --

Penny>>> 


Me:
Let me not only add a "Me Four" but an ear if anyone needs to talk. I've been holding our London contingent in my heart all day. I'm with you in spirit and know what you're going through.

Take care of yourselves and your families, my friends.

Jeralyn, the Voicelady

 



From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  8 01:00:10 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:00:10 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] A Big Thanks
In-Reply-To: <dak9l3+8shi@...>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050708013148.00963aa0@...>

At 23:17 07/07/05 , Ali wrote:
>It's not my place to speak for others here - although I'm sure I do.
>It's been fantastic to see all the good wishes and out pourings of
>solidarity today.

<snip>

Can I just say, Ali, that you're certainly speaking for me (an ex-honorary 
Londoner -!). Although I'm not directly affected by what happened (though 
see below), remarks all over the internet have been very heartening.

I'd just like to add that, having been glued to the constant coverage on TV 
all day (in three languages from four countries - this has been an incident 
of truly international importance!), I feel proud to be a citizen of this 
island. Even more so than after the Olympics announcement yesterday.

The professionalism of the emergency services, the responsible attitude of 
all Londoners and the sober, non-judgmental, unsentimental utterances of 
the parade of talking heads, are all a perfect embodiment of why those 
murderous b*st*rds will never prevail.

The "Blitz Spirit" is a cliche which when mentioned, usually makes me smile 
ruefully about an imagined past which is no longer our present. Today made 
me realise that it's not a cliche, and it's not only true, but absolutely 
part of our present. The commemorations of the 60th anniversary of the end 
of WWII in Europe on Saturday will show the world just how true it remains.

The Dumbledore quote Ali so appositely cited should be emblazoned on all 
school buildings tomorrow.

To end, a summary of my own experience of the event. I was busy working 
this morning (at home), and I didn't have the TV or radio on. It's only 
when my sister phoned around noon to say that her husband (who works in a 
building pretty much on top of Edgware Road station) was safe that I found 
out that anything had happened. My other sister comes into work in London 
every day by train into King's Cross station at around 9am, and we couldn't 
find out anything about her circumstances - it later transpired that she'd 
been in a meeting all day having got into work early and didn't even know 
anything had happened until about 3pm. We had some pretty tense hours until 
then...

--
Richard, previously AKA GulPlum



From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  8 00:02:09 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 00:02:09 -0000
Subject: A Big Thanks
In-Reply-To: <dak9l3+8shi@...>
Message-ID: <dakfq1+k9mc@...>

Ali said:
> Like many Londoners (I'm now living in exile), I lived through the 
> IRA bombings and the fear that engendered - the bombs, the bomb 
> scares and the evacuations. Like many of you there is almost 
> nothing  I hold dearer than my belief in certain fundamental 
> freedoms. The terrorists have killed and maimed today. They have 
> frightened people, but they haven't cowed us.

Ali, I am so glad to know that you & your family are OK!  If you hear 
of anyone in the HP community that was harmed, please let us know. 
I'm sure many here would want to help any way that they can. 

It sounds like you and those around you have a very positive
attitude; glad to hear it!

-- Judy, who posted earlier about the attack, but that post never 
showed up 





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  8 11:31:18 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:31:18 -0000
Subject: Invisibility Cloak (was Re: There's not much to go on)
In-Reply-To: <20050707234502.54329.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dalo66+jmjo@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it odd?  Moody lent his invisibility cloak to the Order so
> that members could guard the prophecy in the MOM.  Why wouldn't James
> - going into hiding under the Fidelimus (or whatever) Spell and
> knowing he wouldn't be needing his cloak - loan it to Dumbledore for
> Order purposes?
> 

IIRC Moody lent his spare Invisibility Cloak to the Order.

Yes, GH was spelled so that only those authorised by the SK could find it, but
the spell applied to the place, not the persons. Once James or Lily stepped 
outside the door....

In fact, the most logical person to have the IC is the SK. They can then come 
and go unobserved and it would help conceal them from those anxious to
ask them a few questions.

Now - some unsubstantiated speculation - what if, as with the Dept. of Mysteries,
DD had members of the Order on watch at GH? That voice shouting a warning
to Lily - lots of fans think that Lupin's response offers a smidgeon of doubt 
as to who it actually was - plus past posts theorising that there was a Third 
(or even a Fourth) Man at GH.
Hmm. I wonder. 

Kneasy








From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  8 12:05:42 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:05:42 -0000
Subject: OT: Checking in here
Message-ID: <dalq6m+9l10@...>

Hi everyone,

I'm fine, for those of you who haven't picked that up elsewhere, and 
I hope everyone else based in London is safe.  Thanks for all the 
good wishes to us Londoners and let me add a "me too" to Ali's 
earlier message.

In these situations, I always count my blessings.  A couple of the 
bombs were a little too close for comfort this time: the first went 
off near my office in Liverpool Street and the second one was on a 
tube route I could very easily have taken to Covent Garden, where I 
was attending a training course.  Not so much a narrow escape though 
as a reminder of the risks of living in London.

Training aside, I spent most of yesterday checking in with friends 
and family and, later, doing some impromptu data recovery when my 
home PC crashed on me (brilliant timing, under the circumstances).  

Everyone I know has proved to be safe and well, with the closest 
shave being a business contact who was in Tavistock Square when the 
bus bomb went off (he was not hurt at all).  

Neil

 





From akhillin at akhillin.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul  8 15:03:02 2005
From: akhillin at akhillin.yahoo.invalid (Anita Hillin)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] OT: Checking in here
In-Reply-To: <dalq6m+9l10@...>
Message-ID: <20050708150302.96697.qmail@...>

I'm so relieved to hear most of our group escaped the
horror, although that doesn't mitigate my sorrow for
those who were victims.  I had friends in New York
during 9/11, and although they weren't victims, they
were shaken for quite some time.

Hearing that Londoners are trying to resume some
semblance of normalcy is heartening.  I remember
reading a column in the New York Times that the writer
had turned to SpongeBob Squarepants for solace, and he
explained how much it helped, with its hopeful world
view and the tenacity of its characters.  Even the
silly humor was a balm to his stress.

That's how I plan to view HBP; taking heart from a
hopeful world view (even if the events are dark) and
snatches of humor, even in the midst of serious
issues.  

akh


--- Neil Ward <neilward at ...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Hi everyone,

I'm fine, for those of you who haven't picked that up
elsewhere, and 
I hope everyone else based in London is safe.  Thanks
for all the 
good wishes to us Londoners and let me add a "me too"
to Ali's 
earlier message.

In these situations, I always count my blessings.  A
couple of the 
bombs were a little too close for comfort this time:
the first went 
off near my office in Liverpool Street and the second
one was on a 
tube route I could very easily have taken to Covent
Garden, where I 
was attending a training course.  Not so much a narrow
escape though 
as a reminder of the risks of living in London.

Training aside, I spent most of yesterday checking in
with friends 
and family and, later, doing some impromptu data
recovery when my 
home PC crashed on me (brilliant timing, under the
circumstances).  

Everyone I know has proved to be safe and well, with
the closest 
shave being a business contact who was in Tavistock
Square when the 
bus bomb went off (he was not hurt at all).  

Neil

 


    
    
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From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul  9 05:16:04 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 05:16:04 -0000
Subject: Changing the subject
Message-ID: <danmik+utug@...>

away from yesterday's bombs and tragedy, before I woke up Thursday to
the clock radio telling me the bad news, I had been thinking of asking
the listies if Darwinian Evolution is controversial in Europe, like it
is in USA. I would have thought there wouldn't be a problem with it in
Roman Catholic countries, as (from my recollection of a Stephen Jay
Gould article) a long-ago Pope wrote an encyclical saying that it is
not heretical to believe in Darwinian evolution, and later Pope John
Paul II wrote an encyclical saying that Darwinian evolution had been
proved to be true. But one of the anti-evolutionists on the radio this
morning was a Roman Catholic!





From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul  9 06:46:23 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:46:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Changing the subject
In-Reply-To: <danmik+utug@...>
Message-ID: <20050709064623.41839.qmail@...>



--- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> wrote:

> away from yesterday's bombs and tragedy, before I woke up Thursday to
> the clock radio telling me the bad news, I had been thinking of asking
> the listies if Darwinian Evolution is controversial in Europe, like it
> is in USA. I would have thought there wouldn't be a problem with it in
> Roman Catholic countries, as (from my recollection of a Stephen Jay
> Gould article) a long-ago Pope wrote an encyclical saying that it is
> not heretical to believe in Darwinian evolution, and later Pope John
> Paul II wrote an encyclical saying that Darwinian evolution had been
> proved to be true. But one of the anti-evolutionists on the radio this
> morning was a Roman Catholic!
> 


In a word - no.  At least, not in the UK.  There are fundamentalist Christian groups which are
Creationist by belief and who do not believe in Darwinian Evolution (they also either don't
believe in dinosaurs, or think that they became extinct 2000 years ago), but they are in a very
small minority, and the mainstream view is still firmly Darwinian, even via Richard Dawkins.    

I've never heard of any Roman Catholics or any Anglicans for that matter in this country
questioning this, only those denominations who are biblical literalists, (tending to be some of
the more evangelical Born Again groups).

Catherine


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul  9 13:43:37 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 15:43:37 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] OT: Checking in here
In-Reply-To: <dalq6m+9l10@...>
Message-ID: <001e01c5848c$354947d0$0600a8c0@hwin>

Just wanted to chime in -

I'm glad to hear you guys are all OK. Sue and I were away to celebrate
our tenth wedding anniversary (!) and heard some very vague (and hence
extra scary sounding) stuff. 

Mike




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 10 02:36:20 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:36:20 -0000
Subject: Six Down...Starts with a "D"
Message-ID: <daq1j4+ft4e@...>

Talisman, getting her quill with the obnoxiously favorite purple ink 
ready:

Just a reminder that The New York Times is supposed to be running a 
Harry Potter crossword tomorrow (July 10th).  If you don't normally 
take the Times, it might be worthwhile sniffing around for a copy.  

I'm sure everyone on this list will acquit themselves handsomely--
except if the clue is: a ten letter word meaning a charming fibber who 
controls all the action. <veg>





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 10 03:34:20 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 03:34:20 -0000
Subject: Six Down...Starts with a "D"
In-Reply-To: <daq1j4+ft4e@...>
Message-ID: <daq4vs+mu1o@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" 
<talisman22457 at y...> wrote: <snip>

Well, aren't I old fashioned?  Who needs a newspaper. (With thanks to 
GERI and/or Heather at HPfGUs-OTChatter) the links for the grid and 
clues are right here:

 
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2509/nythpcrossword7be.jpg


http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2320/nythpclues5oc.jpg






From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 10 14:08:44 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:08:44 -0000
Subject: Six Down...Starts with a "D"
In-Reply-To: <daq4vs+mu1o@...>
Message-ID: <dara5c+jk7t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...>
wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" 
> <talisman22457 at y...> wrote: <snip>
> 
> Well, aren't I old fashioned?  Who needs a newspaper. (With thanks to 
> GERI and/or Heather at HPfGUs-OTChatter) the links for the grid and 
> clues are right here:
> 
>  
> http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2509/nythpcrossword7be.jpg
> 
> 
> http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2320/nythpclues5oc.jpg


But...but...but...

My ten-year-old could do it.  <_<

*gives Talisman a punch on the arm for continually disappearing and
then popping back up unexpectedly*

~Anne






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 10 16:35:10 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:35:10 -0000
Subject: Six Down...Starts with a "D"
In-Reply-To: <dara5c+jk7t@...>
Message-ID: <darinu+haac@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> But...but...but...  My ten-year-old could do it. <_<

Talisman, who really enjoys a good crossword: Didn't that bite? I
knew it wouldn't be "hard," but...

I enlisted a couple of Potter-versant nine-year-olds to answer the
clues while I played scribe. It was still no challenge.

Alas.

Anne:
> *gives Talisman a punch on the arm for continually disappearing and
> then popping back up unexpectedly*
>

Talisman: Gives Anne a you-know-what-eating grin. I'm just following
that old maxim: If you can't say anything nice...

By the way, you posted something that hit the right chord a while
back, want to have a little off-camera chat?

Talisman: counting on her talons: My Combat Medic son just got back
from Iraq, the people I know in London weren't on the wrong
train, and my wounded-Marine son just got evacuated from Pensacola.
That makes three, right? Does that mean I'm clear--for the nonce?









From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 10 20:15:14 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:15:14 -0000
Subject: Six Down...Starts with a "D"
In-Reply-To: <darinu+haac@...>
Message-ID: <darvki+faas@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In 
> >
> 
> Talisman: Gives Anne a you-know-what-eating grin. I'm just following
> that old maxim: If you can't say anything nice...
> 
*NICE*?????
> 
> Talisman: counting on her talons: My Combat Medic son just got back
> from Iraq, the people I know in London weren't on the wrong
> train, and my wounded-Marine son just got evacuated from Pensacola.
> That makes three, right? Does that mean I'm clear--for the nonce?

We sure hope so!

Regards
Jo





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 11 14:50:05 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:50:05 -0500
Subject: some thoughts after rereading book #2
Message-ID: <a636324605071107501fcb1f8@...>

I don't have my book handy, nor did I have a notepad available when these 
thoughts occurred, just FYI. :)

Since JKR said that CoS has the most clues as to who is the half-blood 
prince, I took special care upon rereading to look for such clues. Here are 
some possibilities:

1. Argus Filch. He's a Squib! Could a Squib, a "Muggle" born to magical 
parents, be considered "half-blood"? Was Filch given a job in the magical 
world because of royalty in his past? :)

2. Gilderoy Lockhart. We don't know his parentage - perhaps he is 
half-blood, and he already considers himself a prince. :P

3. Trevor. Perhaps the half-blood prince is, in fact, a toad prince? Will a 
kiss from Hermione turn him into Prince Charming?

All joking aside, I'm still puzzled as to the identity of the HBP. Upon 
re-reading it seemed to be that the most likely candidates would be Harry or 
Tom Riddle/LV, but JKR has already said that neither are the HBP. I am 
thinking that, perhaps, the HBP is Salazar Slytherin... wouldn't THAT 
revelation turn the pure-blood movement on its tail!

Also, a tidbit I noticed while re-reading - Snape's reaction to hearing that 
a student had been taken into the Chamber. He "clutches the back of a chair" 
and, IIRC, asks which student. This seems to be a lot more emotion than 
we're used to seeing from Snape - perhaps he's more apt to let down his 
guard in front of collegues? 

I'm getting quite excited for the release!!

-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 11 17:10:28 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:10:28 -0000
Subject: some thoughts after rereading book #2
In-Reply-To: <a636324605071107501fcb1f8@...>
Message-ID: <dau964+g5ds@...>

JoAnna wrote:

> I don't have my book handy, nor did I have a notepad available 
when these 
> thoughts occurred, just FYI. :)

> Since JKR said that CoS has the most clues as to who is the half-
blood 
> prince, I took special care upon rereading to look for such clues.
 
> All joking aside, I'm still puzzled as to the identity of the HBP. 
Upon 
> re-reading it seemed to be that the most likely candidates would 
be Harry or 
> Tom Riddle/LV, but JKR has already said that neither are the HBP. 
I am 
> thinking that, perhaps, the HBP is Salazar Slytherin... wouldn't 
THAT 
> revelation turn the pure-blood movement on its tail!

I think your difficulty may be with what JKR has said about CoS.  I 
don't think she said anything as blatant as that it has clues to the 
identity of the HBP.  I can't now remember where she mentioned the 
connection, but IIRC it was much more vague - that stuff in CoS is 
significant to the things we will learn in HBP.  It may even be only 
that some material was originally going to be in CoS but was pulled.

For example, I don't think she has said anything to rule out it 
being a new character.

For my money, the link is that the HBP is connected with the 
Hogwarts founders and that era, which was also covered a little in 
CoS but not the other books.

There seem to be a number of critical backstory periods:

Founders - COS, HBP?
Young Voldemort - COS, GOF
Marauder era - POA, OOP
Godric's Hollow - PS, POA (and a bit GOF - wand order!)

I'm betting we don't get the full story on Godric's Hollow until 
Book 7, and likewise the complete Snape backstory (i.e. marauder 
era) will be kept back until then.  Which leaves the Young Voldemort 
era as the other possibility.  Perhaps the HBP is Grindelwald, Heir 
of Hufflepuff, who Dumbledore 'defeated' but did not necessarily 
kill.

David 





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 11 17:40:14 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:40:14 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: some thoughts after rereading book #2
In-Reply-To: <dau964+g5ds@...>
References: <a636324605071107501fcb1f8@...>
	 <dau964+g5ds@...>
Message-ID: <a6363246050711104022c3a0b1@...>

Huh. Upon doing some looking at Mugglenet.com <http://Mugglenet.com>, I 
found this tidbit<http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book6facts.shtml>
:

On August 16th, the door on JKR's site opened giving us the following 
excerpt of book 6, which describes the Half-Blood Prince:

*(He) looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in his mane 
of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a 
pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even though 
he walked with a slight limp.* 

I was aware that the text above described a new character, but NOT aware 
that the character in question was the HBP! Is this true?

On 7/11/05, davewitley <dfrankiswork at ...> wrote:
> 
>  JoAnna wrote:
> 
> > I don't have my book handy, nor did I have a notepad available 
> when these 
> > thoughts occurred, just FYI. :)
> 
> > Since JKR said that CoS has the most clues as to who is the half-
> blood 
> > prince, I took special care upon rereading to look for such clues.
> 
> > All joking aside, I'm still puzzled as to the identity of the HBP. 
> Upon 
> > re-reading it seemed to be that the most likely candidates would 
> be Harry or 
> > Tom Riddle/LV, but JKR has already said that neither are the HBP. 
> I am 
> > thinking that, perhaps, the HBP is Salazar Slytherin... wouldn't 
> THAT 
> > revelation turn the pure-blood movement on its tail!
> 
> I think your difficulty may be with what JKR has said about CoS. I 
> don't think she said anything as blatant as that it has clues to the 
> identity of the HBP. I can't now remember where she mentioned the 
> connection, but IIRC it was much more vague - that stuff in CoS is 
> significant to the things we will learn in HBP. It may even be only 
> that some material was originally going to be in CoS but was pulled.
> 
> For example, I don't think she has said anything to rule out it 
> being a new character.
> 
> For my money, the link is that the HBP is connected with the 
> Hogwarts founders and that era, which was also covered a little in 
> CoS but not the other books.
> 
> There seem to be a number of critical backstory periods:
> 
> Founders - COS, HBP?
> Young Voldemort - COS, GOF
> Marauder era - POA, OOP
> Godric's Hollow - PS, POA (and a bit GOF - wand order!)
> 
> I'm betting we don't get the full story on Godric's Hollow until 
> Book 7, and likewise the complete Snape backstory (i.e. marauder 
> era) will be kept back until then. Which leaves the Young Voldemort 
> era as the other possibility. Perhaps the HBP is Grindelwald, Heir 
> of Hufflepuff, who Dumbledore 'defeated' but did not necessarily 
> kill.
> 
> David 
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 11 17:51:13 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:51:13 -0000
Subject: some thoughts after rereading book #2
In-Reply-To: <a6363246050711104022c3a0b1@...>
Message-ID: <daubih+k8dn@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, JoAnna Wahlund <jrwahlund at g...>
wrote:
> Huh. Upon doing some looking at Mugglenet.com <http://Mugglenet.com>, I 
> found this
tidbit<http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book6facts.shtml>
> :
> 
> On August 16th, the door on JKR's site opened giving us the following 
> excerpt of book 6, which describes the Half-Blood Prince:
> 
> *(He) looked rather like an old lion. [...]* 
> 
> I was aware that the text above described a new character, but NOT
aware 
> that the character in question was the HBP! Is this true?



There's no way of knowing yet. Somebody was jumping to conclusions.

~Anne,
with mental image from _The Phantom Tollbooth_








From heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 11 18:27:55 2005
From: heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:27:55 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: some thoughts after rereading book #2
In-Reply-To: <a6363246050711104022c3a0b1@...>
References: <a636324605071107501fcb1f8@...> <a6363246050711104022c3a0b1@...>
Message-ID: <1121106478.3B1BDB44@...>


On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:03 am, JoAnna Wahlund wrote:
> Huh. Upon doing some looking at Mugglenet.com <http://Mugglenet.com>, I
> found this 
> tidbit<http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book6facts.shtml>
> :
>
> On August 16th, the door on JKR's site opened giving us the following
> excerpt of book 6, which describes the Half-Blood Prince:
>
> *(He) looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in his 
> mane
> of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind 
> a
> pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even 
> though
> he walked with a slight limp.*
>
> I was aware that the text above described a new character, but NOT 
> aware
> that the character in question was the HBP! Is this true?
>
No, it's speculation on their part, not something JKR has confirmed.

Heidi



From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 11 19:15:10 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:15:10 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: some thoughts after rereading book #2
In-Reply-To: <1121106478.3B1BDB44@...>
References: <a636324605071107501fcb1f8@...>
	 <a6363246050711104022c3a0b1@...>
	 <1121106478.3B1BDB44@...>
Message-ID: <a636324605071112151a8909cf@...>

Interestingly enough, they have this in their "facts" section. That's odd; 
Mugglenet.com <http://Mugglenet.com> has seemed to be a fairly reliable 
source.

On 7/11/05, Heidi Tandy <heidi8 at ...> wrote:
> 
>  
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:03 am, JoAnna Wahlund wrote:
> > Huh. Upon doing some looking at Mugglenet.com <http://Mugglenet.com> <
> http://Mugglenet.com>, I
> > found this 
> > tidbit<http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book6facts.shtml>
> > :
> >
> > On August 16th, the door on JKR's site opened giving us the following
> > excerpt of book 6, which describes the Half-Blood Prince:
> >
> > *(He) looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in his 
> > mane
> > of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind 
> > a
> > pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even 
> > though
> > he walked with a slight limp.*
> >
> > I was aware that the text above described a new character, but NOT 
> > aware
> > that the character in question was the HBP! Is this true?
> >
> No, it's speculation on their part, not something JKR has confirmed.
> 
> Heidi
>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 12 00:19:20 2005
From: dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid (dorbandb)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:19:20 -0000
Subject: HBP leaked...
Message-ID: <dav2a8+mj1b@...>

Greetings all,

Yahoo is reporting that HBP was briefly for sale in Vancouver...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050711/wl_canada_nm/canada_media_potter_canada_col


hope that link worked. Ah well, you'll hear soon enough.

As much as I'd like to say that I'd *never* read *anything* before it
was *officially* released by Herself, I'm tickled to imagine that
*someone* is reading IT at this very moment...

....without a shred of remorse ;-)

Brian
(not best known for his patience, but in this case, I can wait.)





From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 12 01:33:10 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:33:10 -0000
Subject: HBP leaked...
In-Reply-To: <dav2a8+mj1b@...>
Message-ID: <dav6km+cmkv@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dorbandb" <dorband at u...> wrote:
> Yahoo is reporting that HBP was briefly for sale in Vancouver...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050711/wl_canada_nm/c
anada_media_potter_canada_col

Putting a few copies out for sale in a Canadian shop MUST be part of
Bloomsbury's publicity plan. What shop could be stupid enough to do it
*accidentally* when Bloomsbury and Rowling's lawyers have gotten that
vicious injunction against revealing or selling any HBP early? Surely
if it were an accidentally, the article would mention how many
thousands of dollars of damages the lawyers were demanding from the
shop.





From darkthirty at tbernhard2000.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 12 01:48:59 2005
From: darkthirty at tbernhard2000.yahoo.invalid (tbernhard2000)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:48:59 -0000
Subject: HBP leaked...
In-Reply-To: <dav6km+cmkv@...>
Message-ID: <dav7ib+lmv5@...>

Catlady wrote:

> Putting a few copies out for sale in a Canadian shop MUST be part of
> Bloomsbury's publicity plan.

Rita, maybe we underestimate the stupidity of some people. If I'd
gotten one of those books from the store, not too far from me here in
vancouver, btw, I'd have speed read it, then taken it back for the
signed bookplate....

dan





From boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 12 13:45:22 2005
From: boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid (Smythe, Boyd T {FLNA})
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:45:22 -0500
Subject: some thoughts after rereading book #2
Message-ID: <FDCCEEC6AAC8DD4AA2DD0C28E41D2832C272DD@...>

JoAnna wrote:
>All joking aside, I'm still puzzled as to the identity of the HBP. Upon
re-reading it seemed to be that the most likely candidates would be Harry or
Tom Riddle/LV, but JKR has already said that neither are the HBP. I am
thinking that, perhaps, the HBP is Salazar Slytherin... wouldn't THAT
revelation turn the pure-blood movement on its tail!<

Yep, that's been my guess, too. Just feels so...right, doesn't it? Maybe
Salazar, the original pureblood lover, is running from his own "tainted"
bloodline, just like Riddle has been. Jo does love to give her characters
complex back stories. Doesn't necessarily mean that Voldemort or the DEs
would find out Sally was less than pure, though; they don't seem to have
discovered LV's past yet.

And if that is in fact a pensieve on the cover, then mightn't it be old
Slytherin's? The perfect place for us to see that lion-like character, who
is likely to be Godric, and for the back story of the founders to be
revealed--those pages that didn't quite fit into CoS. And I think if it were
Godric's that DD would have known where it was and visited it before,
whereas Salazar's might be unknown, hidden, or accessible only to a
parseltongue, like Harry. Perhaps there is also a secret to be revealed in
Salazar's pensieve that will lead Harry to an understanding of how, at last,
to defeat the current Dark Lord. That would lend the struggle against LV a
more weighty, epic quality.

And I personally have my fingers crossed that Harry also learns what
terrible devastation will accompany the defeat of LV. Bring on the carnage,
Jo! :)

--boyd
Yep, CoS is my favorite book so far!



From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 12 14:58:06 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:58:06 -0000
Subject: The Veil in the Death Chamber
Message-ID: <db0lpu+649p@...>

I was re-reading parts of OOTP and came across the nameof the room the 
veil was in. It's on pg 817.  I cannot count the number of times I have 
re-read the book, and never realized the Veil is contained in a room 
called the Death Chamber.  I always thought the veil was some bewitched 
thing which lured people to their death and that is why it was kept in 
the dept of mysteries. Could it be where wizards are put to death, or 
were at one time put to death?

IIRC, Fudge starting using the Dementors and Azkaban to punish 
criminals. So, prior to Fudge, was this veil thing used? The dementors 
were allies of LV in the first war, and subsequently Fudge allies with 
them..... Could this be another notch in the Fudge is a DE theory!

Fran
Getting a little nutty waiting for you know what





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 13 16:29:20 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:29:20 -0000
Subject: Guardian Competition (May contain a spoiler?) - blowing own trumpet
In-Reply-To: <20050706144146.85543.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <db3fh0+q9s4@...>

Catherine wrote:

> The Guardian is running a competition in which participants have to 
write an account of the death
> of Dumbledore, in the style of another author.
> 
> This one in particular made me chuckle:
> 
> http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1521840,00.html

Conan Doyle added:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1527779,00.html

I submitted it on Monday so when it didn't appear in Tuesday's 
selection I thought it had been rejected.  Yay!

I see Jo mooseming did A A Milne (Tuesday version), too:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1527071,00.html

David





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 13 19:08:22 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:08:22 -0000
Subject: Guardian Competition (May contain a spoiler?) - blowing own trumpet
In-Reply-To: <db3fh0+q9s4@...>
Message-ID: <db3or6+100d8@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Catherine wrote:
> 
> > The Guardian is running a competition in which participants have 
to 
> write an account of the death
> > of Dumbledore, in the style of another author.
> > 
> > This one in particular made me chuckle:
> > 
> > 
http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1521840,00.html
> 
> Conan Doyle added:
> 
> 
http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1527779,00.html
> 
> I submitted it on Monday so when it didn't appear in Tuesday's 
> selection I thought it had been rejected.  Yay!
> 
> I see Jo mooseming did A A Milne (Tuesday version), too:
> 
> 
http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1527071,00.html
> 
> David

Well seeing as how I've been outed I'd like to thank Catherine for 
the original steer.

Congrats to you David looks as if you had as much fun with your 
piece as I did! I'm only sorry I couldn't find a place for Snape, no 
bats in The Hundred Acre Forest as I recall, anyway Snape didn't 
seem compatible!

To everyone else I'd like to ask who do you think is missing? I'd 
like to see Ian Fleming "The name's Potter, Harry Potter" with 
Hermione as 'M'. Possibly Shakespeare's Hamlet, dead parents, 
ghosts, it's got to be worth a stab (ouch)! Seeing as how TV seems 
to be 'authorial' (Scooby Doo???) how about the X Files or Star Trek 
the original?

My favourites so far are the Chaucer (which rocks), Jane Austen and 
Jeeves and Wooster.

Regards
Jo
Hoping Hurricane Jo doesn't get downgraded to tropical depression.






From melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 13 21:50:50 2005
From: melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:50:50 -0000
Subject: Guardian Competition (May contain a spoiler?) - blowing own trumpet
In-Reply-To: <db3or6+100d8@...>
Message-ID: <db42bq+87hg@...>

These are great! I'm re-reading OoP in prep for HBP and these are just
what I need to get out of the funk that book invariably brings on.

I know I've been MIA for a while, but I'm really looking forward to
the new canon and some great conversations in here. 

Mel, back from the back of beyond

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> wrote:

> > 
> > I submitted it on Monday so when it didn't appear in Tuesday's 
> > selection I thought it had been rejected.  Yay!
> > 
ssion.





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 13 22:21:48 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:21:48 -0000
Subject: Guardian Competition (May contain a spoiler?) - blowing own trumpet
In-Reply-To: <db3or6+100d8@...>
Message-ID: <db445s+a86l@...>

Jo wrote:

> Congrats to you David looks as if you had as much fun with your 
> piece as I did! I'm only sorry I couldn't find a place for Snape, no 
> bats in The Hundred Acre Forest as I recall, anyway Snape didn't 
> seem compatible!

I did, thank you!

> To everyone else I'd like to ask who do you think is missing? 

Oh, I considered a Lemony Snicket pastiche, a word which here means a 
piece of third rate hack writing aimed at bringing a proper author 
into disrepute.  We have a day left.

The Leaky Cauldron has an item about an American newspaper that did a 
Dickens and a Shakespeare.

> My favourites so far are the Chaucer (which rocks), Jane Austen and 
> Jeeves and Wooster.

I liked those, also the Salinger.  I feel the best ones are those 
which show a knowledge of the books - e.g. the Salinger reference to 
Death Eaters.

David





From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 13 22:28:56 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:28:56 -0000
Subject: Guardian Competition
In-Reply-To: <db3or6+100d8@...>
Message-ID: <db44j8+3kak@...>

Good work, David & Jo!

I was tempted to do "Catcher in the Rye", but I see someone already has 
done that one.  Harry as Holden Caulfield, it's perfect!

By the way, it's not really a spoiler.  The Guardian is just going by 
speculation on betting sites as to who will die in Book 6.

-- Judy, counting down the days





From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 13 22:35:53 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:35:53 -0000
Subject: The Veil in the Death Chamber
In-Reply-To: <db0lpu+649p@...>
Message-ID: <db4509+t780@...>

Fran wrote:
>... the Veil is contained in a room 
> called the Death Chamber... Could it be where wizards are put to 
> death, or were at one time put to death?

I remember that this was discussed on HPfGU shortly after OoP came 
out.  That the room was an execution chamber was one popular theory.  
However, having it in the Department of Mysteries implies that it was 
used to *study* death.  And death, of course, is one of the great 
mysteries of life.  So, speculation was that people were exucuted 
there, and their deaths were studied as they died, or perhaps very
old or ill wizards volunteered to go through the Veil, to contribute
to wizarding knowlegde. 

Fran said she was: 
> Getting a little nutty waiting for you know what

"You know what"?  Is that related to you-know-who?

Judy, hoping she can finish re-reading OoP by Friday night





From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 07:38:13 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:38:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Guardian Competition
In-Reply-To: <db44j8+3kak@...>
Message-ID: <20050714073814.33865.qmail@...>



--- Judy <judy at ...> wrote:

> Good work, David & Jo!
> 
> I was tempted to do "Catcher in the Rye", but I see someone already has 
> done that one.  Harry as Holden Caulfield, it's perfect!
> 
> By the way, it's not really a spoiler.  The Guardian is just going by 
> speculation on betting sites as to who will die in Book 6.
> 
> -- Judy, counting down the days
> 

I know it's not really a spoiler - it's just that I know some people prefer to not even hear
rumours.

Catherine, thinking David and Jo's entries were very entertaining, and also loving the Helen
Fielding (for style, not substance!)



		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 12:02:54 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:02:54 -0000
Subject: The Veil in the Death Chamber
In-Reply-To: <db4509+t780@...>
Message-ID: <db5k9e+35sm@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at j...> wrote:
> Fran wrote:
> >... the Veil is contained in a room 
> > called the Death Chamber... Could it be where wizards are put to 
> > death, or were at one time put to death?
> 
> I remember that this was discussed on HPfGU shortly after OoP came 
> out.  That the room was an execution chamber was one popular theory.  
> However, having it in the Department of Mysteries implies that it was 
> used to *study* death.  And death, of course, is one of the great 
> mysteries of life.  So, speculation was that people were exucuted 
> there, and their deaths were studied as they died, or perhaps very
> old or ill wizards volunteered to go through the Veil, to contribute
> to wizarding knowlegde. 

Courtroom Ten and the Death Chamber may predate the MoM, though.  They
seem older and different from the normal office-style building which
is the rest of the MoM.  The archway itself looked ancient to Harry. 
I wonder if the MoM weren't built around these two rooms (and perhaps
others -- maybe the locked one, too).  My guess is that the D.C. had
once been used as an execution chamber, but certainly not since the
DoM was built around it; can't have  lots of people traipsing through
there now.

Annemehr





From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 18:18:12 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:18:12 -0000
Subject: Book covers
Message-ID: <db6a94+muts@...>

Anybody have any speculation about the book covers for HBP, especially 
the recently-released back cover and special edition drawings?  (Don't 
forget spoiler space if you discuss details of the drawings.)

--JZC





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 18:37:27 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:37:27 -0000
Subject: The Veil in the Death Chamber
In-Reply-To: <db5k9e+35sm@...>
Message-ID: <db6bd7+98kr@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at j...> wrote:
> > Fran wrote:
> > >... the Veil is contained in a room 
> > > called the Death Chamber... Could it be where wizards are put 
to 
> > > death, or were at one time put to death?
> > 
> > I remember that this was discussed on HPfGU shortly after OoP 
came 
> > out.  That the room was an execution chamber was one popular 
theory.  
> > However, having it in the Department of Mysteries implies that it 
was 
> > used to *study* death.  And death, of course, is one of the great 
> > mysteries of life.  So, speculation was that people were exucuted 
> > there, and their deaths were studied as they died, or perhaps very
> > old or ill wizards volunteered to go through the Veil, to 
contribute
> > to wizarding knowlegde. 
> 
> Courtroom Ten and the Death Chamber may predate the MoM, though.  
They
> seem older and different from the normal office-style building which
> is the rest of the MoM.  The archway itself looked ancient to 
Harry. 
> I wonder if the MoM weren't built around these two rooms (and 
perhaps
> others -- maybe the locked one, too).  My guess is that the D.C. had
> once been used as an execution chamber, but certainly not since the
> DoM was built around it; can't have  lots of people traipsing 
through
> there now.
> 
> Annemehr

I thought Harry remembered the courtroom from DD pensieve. While they 
may study alot of the things contained in the Dept of M.,I also think 
they keep certain things there as they are dangerous.

Fran





From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 18:29:47 2005
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:29:47 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Book covers
References: <db6a94+muts@...>
Message-ID: <01fe01c588a2$05eb3fb0$210110ac@MainDesktop>

Hi --

Well, I do have an observation about the text of the UK back cover released earlier today .............so some spoiler space

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

A
W
I
L
E

L
O
N
G
E
R

Again, just an observation, once I finally got the gumption to actually read the text ....... I was deathly afraid of *big* spoilers, I almost fell off my computer chair when I read the "unseasonal mist" bit.  Anyone who is familiar with John Granger's work or heard him speak at Nimbus - 2003 will have the same reaction.  One of the things John emphasizes with regard to the alchemical structure and symbolism in the series is that the hot, dry weather in OoP corresponded with the "nigredo" portion of the work, and Granger told us all to expect the opening chapters of Book 6 to be "wet and cool."  He reiterated that particular prediction (along with noting that we can expect baths, cleansing, rain, Lake references, etc. to figure throughout HBP) in his B&N University course just earlier this week.  I just thought it was *very cool* how spot-on that one aspect seems to be.  

As for the cover-art, I wonder if they might not be visiting Godric's Hollow.  I agree that since Dumbledore and Harry don't have wands out or look on-edge, it appears that they aren't in any imminent danger, despite the presence of the knife in the tree.  I don't know though!

Penny
(getting *very* excited ............)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: joywitch_m_curmudgeon 
  To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:18 PM
  Subject: [the_old_crowd] Book covers


  Anybody have any speculation about the book covers for HBP, especially 
  the recently-released back cover and special edition drawings?  (Don't 
  forget spoiler space if you discuss details of the drawings.)

  --JZC




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    a..  Visit your group "the_old_crowd" on the web.
      
    b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 18:41:33 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:41:33 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Book covers
In-Reply-To: <db6a94+muts@...>
References: <db6a94+muts@...>
Message-ID: <a63632460507141141578b073@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

If you look at the far right hand side of the cover, near the window of the 
house, there's a misty white shape that looks like a Patronus - my guess is 
either a Swan (Cho Chang) or a Phoenix (probably Dumbledore). 

There's a shadowy figure in the other window, no idea who that could be.

On 7/14/05, joywitch_m_curmudgeon <joym999 at ...> wrote:
> 
>  Anybody have any speculation about the book covers for HBP, especially 
> the recently-released back cover and special edition drawings? (Don't 
> forget spoiler space if you discuss details of the drawings.)
> 
> --JZC
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 18:46:36 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:46:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Book covers
In-Reply-To: <a63632460507141141578b073@...>
Message-ID: <20050714184636.69851.qmail@...>

--- JoAnna Wahlund <jrwahlund at ...> wrote:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

If you look at the far right hand side of the cover,
near the window of the house, there's a misty white
shape that looks like a Patronus - my guess is 
either a Swan (Cho Chang) or a Phoenix (probably
Dumbledore). 

There's a shadowy figure in the other window, no idea
who that could be.


SSSusan:
And WHY in the world is it that the windows in the
house's roof, nicknamed "eyebrow windows" for their
distinctive shape, appear to actually have eyes *in*
them?  (Or am I imagining things? :-))

Siriusly Snapey Susan




From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 18:49:56 2005
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:49:56 -0000
Subject: Book covers
In-Reply-To: <01fe01c588a2$05eb3fb0$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <db6c4k+ksh3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Penny & Bryce" <penny> 
speculated:
 
 S
 P
 O
 I
 L
 E
 R
 
 S
 P
 A
 C
 E
 
 F
 O
 R
 
 A
 W
 I
 L
 E
 
 L
 O
 N
 G
 E
 R
 

> As for the cover-art, I wonder if they might not be visiting 
Godric's Hollow.  I agree that since Dumbledore and Harry don't have 
wands out or look on-edge, it appears that they aren't in any 
imminent danger, despite the presence of the knife in the tree.  I 
don't know though!

CV:

That was my first thought, too. But the snakey S on the door doesn't 
work for Godrick's Hollow. My theory is that it is Mundungus walking 
down the path. He could have dealings in the "S" world.





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 21:37:29 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:37:29 -0000
Subject: Book covers
In-Reply-To: <20050714184636.69851.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <db6lup+e5b9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Susan Albrecht 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> --- JoAnna Wahlund <jrwahlund at g...> wrote:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
L
A
L
A
L
A
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
*
O
K
T
H
A
T
S
E
N
O
U
G
H
JoAnna wrote: 
> If you look at the far right hand side of the cover,
> near the window of the house, there's a misty white
> shape that looks like a Patronus - my guess is 
> either a Swan (Cho Chang) or a Phoenix (probably
> Dumbledore). 
> 

Talisman:

Hmmm, I think DD and Harry are taking a little stroll in the 
Pensieve.  

A little Slyth cottage in the woods?  I'm betting it's Mama Slyth-
Riddle's. 

If that misty stuff coming from the window to the right looks like 
anything to me, it looks like a serpent. 

Perhaps that's the last of her...wafting away through the trees.

(`Course the old peepers aren't what the used to be.)

Rowling said we'd find out more about LV's early years, what better 
way than a trip down magical memory lane.

Talisman








From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 14 21:48:11 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:48:11 -0000
Subject: Book covers
In-Reply-To: <db6c4k+ksh3@...>
Message-ID: <db6mir+6i41@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "constancevigilance" 
<constancevigilance at y...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Penny & Bryce" <penny> 
> speculated:
>  
>  S
>  P
>  O
>  I
>  L
>  E
>  R
>  
>  S
>  P
>  A
>  C
>  E
>  
>  F
>  O
>  R
>  
>  A
>  W
>  I
>  L
>  E
>  
>  L
>  O
>  N
>  G
>  E
>  R
>  
> 
> > As for the cover-art, I wonder if they might not be visiting 
> Godric's Hollow.  I agree that since Dumbledore and Harry don't 
have 
> wands out or look on-edge, it appears that they aren't in any 
> imminent danger, despite the presence of the knife in the tree.  I 
> don't know though!
> 
> CV:
> 
> That was my first thought, too. But the snakey S on the door 
doesn't 
> work for Godrick's Hollow. My theory is that it is Mundungus 
walking 
> down the path. He could have dealings in the "S" world.


I think the pic and the "S" refer to Spinner's End....
Also,could ring on the cover be found in that shop in Knockturn Alley 
that Harry inadvertantly turned up in.
Fran





From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 00:02:06 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:02:06 -0000
Subject: Guardian Competition; Book Cover
In-Reply-To: <20050714073814.33865.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <db6udu+40j9@...>

I said: >> it's not really a spoiler. 

And Catherine said: 
> I know it's not really a spoiler - it's just that I know some
people 
> prefer to not even hear rumours.

Good point -- I guess it's better safe than sorry when putting in 
spoiler warnings!

Speaking of spoilers, is there a website where one can see the new  
book cover that everyone's talking about?  I hadn't found it yet.

-- Judy, now starting to count down the hours





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 00:32:12 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:32:12 -0000
Subject: Guardian Competition; Book Cover
In-Reply-To: <db6udu+40j9@...>
Message-ID: <db706c+vndh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at j...> wrote:
> I said: >> it's not really a spoiler. 
> 
> And Catherine said: 
> > I know it's not really a spoiler - it's just that I know some
> people 
> > prefer to not even hear rumours.
> 
> Good point -- I guess it's better safe than sorry when putting in 
> spoiler warnings!
> 
> Speaking of spoilers, is there a website where one can see the new  
> book cover that everyone's talking about?  I hadn't found it yet.
> 
> -- Judy, now starting to count down the hours

I followed the link found at the HP Lexicon site. Mugglenet.com has it 
as well





From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 00:33:40 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:33:40 -0000
Subject: HBP Pix
Message-ID: <db7094+gbv8@...>

I still can't find the back cover that everyone is posting about.  
However, I found two other pictures.  They can be found by going to 
www.amazon.com and www.amazon.co.uk and clicking on the HBP link on
the home page, then either clicking on "view more pictures" (US) or
"search inside the book" (UK). 








From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 01:15:23 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:15:23 -0000
Subject: Book covers
In-Reply-To: <db6lup+e5b9@...>
Message-ID: <db72nb+7uap@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Susan Albrecht 
> <susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> > --- JoAnna Wahlund <jrwahlund at g...> wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> L
> A
> L
> A
> L
> A
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> *
> O
> K
> T
> H
> A
> T
> S
> E
> N
> O
> U
> G
> H
> JoAnna wrote: 
> > If you look at the far right hand side of the cover,
> > near the window of the house, there's a misty white
> > shape that looks like a Patronus - my guess is 
> > either a Swan (Cho Chang) or a Phoenix (probably
> > Dumbledore). 
> > 
> 
> Talisman:
> 
> Hmmm, I think DD and Harry are taking a little stroll in the 
> Pensieve.  
> 
> A little Slyth cottage in the woods?  I'm betting it's Mama Slyth-
> Riddle's. 
> 
> If that misty stuff coming from the window to the right looks like 
> anything to me, it looks like a serpent. 
> 
> Perhaps that's the last of her...wafting away through the trees.
> 
> (`Course the old peepers aren't what the used to be.)
> 
> Rowling said we'd find out more about LV's early years, what better 
> way than a trip down magical memory lane.
> 
> Talisman

Snow:


How about mama Slyth never died! Tommy Riddle was told that his 
mother died soon after giving childbirth, sounds like Lily and James 
dying in a car crash, "It's an outrage! A Scandal!" 

There's lots of speculation room and very little time till we find 
out (Thank God). 

Did anyone else spot the Grim in a tree right of Harry and down a bit 
in that pic? 

Snow








From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 01:16:40 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:16:40 -0000
Subject: HBP Pix
In-Reply-To: <db7094+gbv8@...>
Message-ID: <db72po+9pl6@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at j...> wrote:
> I still can't find the back cover that everyone is posting about.  
> However, I found two other pictures.  They can be found by going to 
> www.amazon.com and www.amazon.co.uk and clicking on the HBP link on
> the home page, then either clicking on "view more pictures" (US) or
> "search inside the book" (UK).

Try this link:
http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/hbpdeluxehuge.jpg





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 01:29:35 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:29:35 -0000
Subject: Book covers
In-Reply-To: <db72nb+7uap@...>
Message-ID: <db73hv+7b70@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" <kking0731 at g...> 
wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" 
<talisman22457 at y...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Susan Albrecht 
> > <susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> > > --- JoAnna Wahlund <jrwahlund at g...> wrote:
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > L
> > A
> > L
> > A
> > L
> > A
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > *
> > O
> > K
> > T
> > H
> > A
> > T
> > S
> > E
> > N
> > O
> > U
> > G
> > H
> > JoAnna wrote: 
> > > If you look at the far right hand side of the cover,
> > > near the window of the house, there's a misty white
> > > shape that looks like a Patronus - my guess is 
> > > either a Swan (Cho Chang) or a Phoenix (probably
> > > Dumbledore). 
> > > 
> > 
> > Talisman:
> > 
> > Hmmm, I think DD and Harry are taking a little stroll in the 
> > Pensieve.  
> > 
> > A little Slyth cottage in the woods?  I'm betting it's Mama Slyth-
> > Riddle's. 
> > 
> > If that misty stuff coming from the window to the right looks 
like 
> > anything to me, it looks like a serpent. 
> > 
> > Perhaps that's the last of her...wafting away through the trees.
> > 
> > (`Course the old peepers aren't what the used to be.)
> > 
> > Rowling said we'd find out more about LV's early years, what 
better 
> > way than a trip down magical memory lane.
> > 
> > Talisman
> 
> Snow:
> 
> 
> How about mama Slyth never died! Tommy Riddle was told that his 
> mother died soon after giving childbirth, sounds like Lily and 
James 
> dying in a car crash, "It's an outrage! A Scandal!" 
> 
> There's lots of speculation room and very little time till we find 
> out (Thank God). 
> 
> Did anyone else spot the Grim in a tree right of Harry and down a 
bit 
> in that pic? 
> 
> Snow

Is it a Grim or a bat?  Guess we will know for sure soon!
fraN





From drednort at drednort.geo.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 06:11:40 2005
From: drednort at drednort.geo.yahoo.invalid (Shaun Hately)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:11:40 +1000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <db73hv+7b70@...>
References: <db72nb+7uap@...>
Message-ID: <42D7E03C.25385.AC3534@localhost>

I have arranged to have the day off to read Harry Potter and the Half 
Blood Prince which I will be picking up soon after 9am tomorrow 
morning (release time here in Australia is 9.01am - simultaneous 
release with London, but at a much more civilised hour). I have 
bought chocolate in both block and hot varieties (well, I have to add 
the milk and make it hot) and will be sitting down to read it in 
front of an open fire (it is winter here) with quiet classical music 
playing in the background, from cover to cover in one sitting. I am 
praying for foul weather as it is always more fun to be inside 
reading when the weather is awful outside (but I would like the foul 
weather to wait until I am home from getting the book).

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at ... | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 07:38:53 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:38:53 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <42D7E03C.25385.AC3534@localhost>
Message-ID: <db7p6d+c7vs@...>

Shaun wrote:
> I have arranged to have the day off to read Harry Potter and the 
Half 
> Blood Prince which I will be picking up soon after 9am tomorrow 
> morning (release time here in Australia is 9.01am - simultaneous 
> release with London, but at a much more civilised hour). I have 
> bought chocolate in both block and hot varieties (well, I have to 
add 
> the milk and make it hot) and will be sitting down to read it in 
> front of an open fire (it is winter here) with quiet classical music 
> playing in the background, from cover to cover in one sitting.  
(snip)

Ginger:
Oh, Shaun, might I join you?  It's over 90 Farenhiet here, with over 
70% humidity and slough skeeters that have been rumoured to carry off 
livestock, small children and unattended Volkswagons.  I finally broke 
down and bought AC, but just one big enough for one room.  

I have my book reserved at B&N, will be attending the festivities 
(callout to JoAnna:  Will you be there?) and returning to my home 
where I have cooked food for 2 days, have my chair ready with ashtray, 
cigs, spitoon (I bought a ton of cherries on sale), and several 
pitchers of beverages.  I will turn off the ringer, lock the door and 
remove myself from the rest of the world for the weekend.  

One thing I will *not* do, having learned my lesson with OoP, is read 
the dust jacket.  

I am probably the only one, but I wish we had a few more days as I 
have been too busy to do any rereads.  I will try and squeeze in the 
last chapters of OoP before I go.

Happy reading to you all, Ginger





From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 10:15:14 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:15:14 -0000
Subject: Reminder of SPOILER POLICY
Message-ID: <db82bi+i8ho@...>

Hi everyone,

As we approach the official release of HBP and a chance to read the 
book without risking arrest and infamy, here's a quick reminder of 
our spoiler policy: -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/1852

This list will not be closed to posting, so if you pop in before 
you've read the book, please read messages at your own risk. 

I'm off to Catherine's place in Norfolk later, to join a few others 
for a midnight party at Ottakar's Bookshop in Norwich.

See you on the other side.

Neil 




 







From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 10:35:30 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:35:30 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <42D7E03C.25385.AC3534@localhost>
Message-ID: <db83hi+gkf1@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...> 
wrote:
> I have arranged to have the day off to read Harry Potter and the 
Half 
> Blood Prince which I will be picking up soon after 9am tomorrow 
> morning (release time here in Australia is 9.01am - simultaneous 
> release with London, but at a much more civilised hour). I have 
> bought chocolate in both block and hot varieties (well, I have to 
add 
> the milk and make it hot) and will be sitting down to read it in 
> front of an open fire (it is winter here) with quiet classical 
music 
> playing in the background, from cover to cover in one sitting. I am 
> praying for foul weather as it is always more fun to be inside 
> reading when the weather is awful outside (but I would like the 
foul 
> weather to wait until I am home from getting the book).
> 
> Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
> Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
> (ISTJ)       | drednort at a... | ICQ: 6898200 
> "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
> thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
> facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
> uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
> need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
> Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia


I am glad to hear I am not the only person to take a day off to read 
this book.  Plan on choclate as well though not hot....it is very 
much summer here in Florida.
Fran





From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 12:19:40 2005
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:19:40 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: So how will you be reading?
References: <db83hi+gkf1@...>
Message-ID: <034001c58937$7bad2ac0$210110ac@MainDesktop>

Hi --

I'll be reading here at the house, since the husband has happily volunteered to take the kids and leave for the day!  :--)  I am curious -- I have noticed several people noting that they will be reading in front of their computers (not on this group, but just generally others in the fandom).  Will they be IM'ing with people while reading I wondered?  My computer chair isn't *that* comfortable, and I tend to like to build a little nest and hide away while I'm reading HP.  I also learned my lesson about the book jackets -- no way am I reading that.  I also, funnily enough, never even notice the GrandPre illustrations at the top of each chapter heading when I'm doing my first reading.  

Tonight (squee), we are going to dinner and then off to a midnight party to get the book.  I'll start reading sometime about 22 hrs from now, when baby Harry wakes up for his first feeding.  

Hoping the weather here isn't as nasty as it's been for the last 24 hrs, or my book might be soaked before I get it to the car!  

I like Neil's "see you on the other side" closing --

Penny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 12:28:14 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:28:14 -0500
Subject: FAQ Poll question finally answered
References: <db83hi+gkf1@...> <034001c58937$7bad2ac0$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <022601c58938$ac0156f0$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

Haven't seen this announcement here yet....

www.jkrowling.com

JKR finally answered the FAQ Poll winner, regarding how Order members communicate.  The answer won't surprise many, I don't think -- mostly just detailed confirmation of what people have speculated about for awhile.  But she does also give some interesting information about the *nature* of Patronuses.

Siriusly Snapey Susan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 13:21:08 2005
From: keenersd at sdrk1.yahoo.invalid (Stephanie Keener)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:21:08 -0400
Subject: can somebody sign me out? sniff sniff
Message-ID: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539A07CEA612@...>

Hey Everyone -

I'm sorry to reply to the whole list for this.  But I guess I'm hoping
for some sympathy e-mails....  Could Neal or someone
 suspend my subscription for the next ** ack ** four weeks?  I can't
seem to use my yahoo! Account anymore.  

I, I, *sniff* won't be able to read for the next three weeks as I have a
21 day residential program for women, which normally I really enjoy
organizing and directing, starting on Sunday. We have things on the
schedule from 7 am - after 9pm everyday.  So I've made the very mature
decision to wait until -- can you believe this -- AUGUST 6 to start
reading HBP.  I'm ordering all my friends and my stinking gloating
husband to run on radio silence.  And I just can not have you people
popping up on my e-mail with your days off and you eyes glued to the
page.  

For the first time since PoA I won't be reading with Neal and Penny and
Rita and Eb and ..... Oh, it's just too much...  

Stephanie Keener


-----Original Message-----
From: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of quigonginger
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 3:39 AM
To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: So how will you be reading?

Shaun wrote:
> I have arranged to have the day off to read Harry Potter and the 
Half 
> Blood Prince which I will be picking up soon after 9am tomorrow 
> morning (release time here in Australia is 9.01am - simultaneous 
> release with London, but at a much more civilised hour). I have 
> bought chocolate in both block and hot varieties (well, I have to 
add 
> the milk and make it hot) and will be sitting down to read it in 
> front of an open fire (it is winter here) with quiet classical music 
> playing in the background, from cover to cover in one sitting.  
(snip)

Ginger:
Oh, Shaun, might I join you?  It's over 90 Farenhiet here, with over 
70% humidity and slough skeeters that have been rumoured to carry off 
livestock, small children and unattended Volkswagons.  I finally broke 
down and bought AC, but just one big enough for one room.  

I have my book reserved at B&N, will be attending the festivities 
(callout to JoAnna:  Will you be there?) and returning to my home 
where I have cooked food for 2 days, have my chair ready with ashtray, 
cigs, spitoon (I bought a ton of cherries on sale), and several 
pitchers of beverages.  I will turn off the ringer, lock the door and 
remove myself from the rest of the world for the weekend.  

One thing I will *not* do, having learned my lesson with OoP, is read 
the dust jacket.  

I am probably the only one, but I wish we had a few more days as I 
have been too busy to do any rereads.  I will try and squeeze in the 
last chapters of OoP before I go.

Happy reading to you all, Ginger




 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 16:02:15 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:02:15 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <034001c58937$7bad2ac0$210110ac@MainDesktop>
References: <db83hi+gkf1@...>
	 <034001c58937$7bad2ac0$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <a636324605071509022429da5@...>

My 6-month-old daughter is spending the night at Grandma's; if all goes 
well, I'll have the book read before we go pick her up Saturday morning! I'm 
tempted to stay up all night and read as I did OotP (took me from 1am-6am), 
but as I don't know how long Elanor will be content to stay at Grandma's, I 
don't know if I'll be able to sleep in... so better safe than sorry.

At any rate, I should be able to get the book read before Saturday is over; 
my husband has promised to care for the baby while I read. :) 

On 7/15/05, Penny & Bryce <pennylin at ...> wrote:
> 
>  Hi --
> 
> I'll be reading here at the house, since the husband has happily 
> volunteered to take the kids and leave for the day! :--) I am curious -- I 
> have noticed several people noting that they will be reading in front of 
> their computers (not on this group, but just generally others in the 
> fandom). Will they be IM'ing with people while reading I wondered? My 
> computer chair isn't *that* comfortable, and I tend to like to build a 
> little nest and hide away while I'm reading HP. I also learned my lesson 
> about the book jackets -- no way am I reading that. I also, funnily enough, 
> never even notice the GrandPre illustrations at the top of each chapter 
> heading when I'm doing my first reading. 
> 
> Tonight (squee), we are going to dinner and then off to a midnight party 
> to get the book. I'll start reading sometime about 22 hrs from now, when 
> baby Harry wakes up for his first feeding. 
> 
> Hoping the weather here isn't as nasty as it's been for the last 24 hrs, 
> or my book might be soaked before I get it to the car! 
> 
> I like Neil's "see you on the other side" closing --
> 
> Penny
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 16:04:27 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:04:27 -0000
Subject: Remember the Great Shipping Wars?
Message-ID: <db8mqb+ckor@...>

Not to mention when politics was banned on HPFGU?

Well, the fandom has taken things to the next level:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4683219.stm

David Blunkett, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, "added 
that he would like to see Potter's friends Hermione Granger and Ron 
Weasley become an item".

So there you have it.  R/H is government policy in the UK.  Expect 
the entire New Labour spin machinery to be turned against H/Hers 
(including JKR herself if she goes 'off-message').  Expect the 
Conservative Party to take up the H/H cause vigorously, and the 
Liberals to differentiate themselves by putting forward H/D.

Scots Nationalists will denounce London's interference in an 
internal Scottish matter.  Welsh Nationalists will say something in 
Welsh.  George Galloway will say something objectionable.  Ian 
Paisley will say something even more objectionable.

David, who thinks Blair needs to clarify his position on Lord Thingy





From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 17:09:07 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:09:07 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <db83hi+gkf1@...>
Message-ID: <db8qjj+pgon@...>

Fran wrote,

> I am glad to hear I am not the only person to take a day off to 
read 
> this book.  Plan on choclate as well though not hot....it is very 
> much summer here in Florida.

And I have one something a bit different coming up. 

Tonight I'll be lined up at the English bookstore at 1am, when they 
start the big party. (Yup. One. Aye. Em. They're going by GMT ... Why 
do I have ot be on the wrong end of things?? I'm trying to console 
myself with the thought that I might be Ukraine.)

Next stop: Tomorrow at 19.00 is the kickoff of the Swissbowl - the 
final game of the Swiss American Football League. Our team is playing 
but are definitely the underdogs, so there's no way Evan and I miss 
that one. (For the record: we're gonna whoop 'em. I said it. Right 
here.)

Sunday at 17.00 I get to preach for the first time in our new church. 
Sermon: Mark 13: Apocalypse, the End of Time, Abominations of 
Desolation, the whole nine yards. No, I didn't choose the text. But 
it is one of the few times I got my sermon done several days ahead of 
time.

I've heard of preachers putting the congregation to sleep (though I'd 
never admitt to doing it myself, of course) - but I may well be the 
first preacher to fall aslepp during his own sermon ...

But all in all, this is going to be ONE FUN weekend!

Happy reading to one all,

Mike (who'll swing by at some point to confirm having survived.)





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 17:11:09 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:11:09 -0000
Subject: FAQ Poll question finally answered
In-Reply-To: <022601c58938$ac0156f0$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
Message-ID: <db8qnd+2394@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "susiequsie23" <susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> Haven't seen this announcement here yet....
> 
> www.jkrowling.com
> 
> JKR finally answered the FAQ Poll winner, regarding how Order members communicate.  
The answer won't surprise many, I don't think -- mostly just detailed confirmation of what 
people have speculated about for awhile.  But she does also give some interesting 
information about the *nature* of Patronuses.
> 

Um.
If you take into consideration the nature of the Patroni from James and Harry,
so similar that DD considered "Prongs rode again tonight," then either there's
an important clue there or Jo is not being entirely accurate that each individual
Patronus is distinctive and unique. Or maybe DD was lying again.

Pity this answer came so late - we could have had fun speculating on the Patronus
form of Lupin, Sirius, Hagrid, Molly, et al. Plus tying this in with shadowy artwork
on bookcovers. It could have kept us going for a week at least. Some authors have
no consideration for the need of desperate fans to jump on anything new(ish).

No matter. Within not too many hours there'll be fresh meat on the table.
Happy reading.

Kneasy





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 17:28:30 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:28:30 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: FAQ Poll question finally answered
In-Reply-To: <db8qnd+2394@...>
References: <022601c58938$ac0156f0$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
	 <db8qnd+2394@...>
Message-ID: <a636324605071510287ce647b5@...>

We know that James' Animagi form was a stag, but do we know that his 
Patronus is one as well? Has JKR ever said that a wizard's Patronus is also 
their Animagi form (or vice versa)?

Also, I believe it's been stated that "no two wizards have the same 
Patronus" - perhaps that's no two *living* wizards have the same one?

On 7/15/05, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...> wrote:
> 
>  --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "susiequsie23" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
> wrote:
> > Haven't seen this announcement here yet....
> > 
> > www.jkrowling.com <http://www.jkrowling.com>
> > 
> > JKR finally answered the FAQ Poll winner, regarding how Order members 
> communicate. 
> The answer won't surprise many, I don't think -- mostly just detailed 
> confirmation of what 
> people have speculated about for awhile. But she does also give some 
> interesting 
> information about the *nature* of Patronuses.
> > 
> 
> Um.
> If you take into consideration the nature of the Patroni from James and 
> Harry,
> so similar that DD considered "Prongs rode again tonight," then either 
> there's
> an important clue there or Jo is not being entirely accurate that each 
> individual
> Patronus is distinctive and unique. Or maybe DD was lying again.
> 
> Pity this answer came so late - we could have had fun speculating on the 
> Patronus
> form of Lupin, Sirius, Hagrid, Molly, et al. Plus tying this in with 
> shadowy artwork
> on bookcovers. It could have kept us going for a week at least. Some 
> authors have
> no consideration for the need of desperate fans to jump on anything 
> new(ish).
> 
> No matter. Within not too many hours there'll be fresh meat on the table.
> Happy reading.
> 
> Kneasy
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 17:30:12 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:30:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FAQ Poll question finally answered/Where I'll be reading
In-Reply-To: <db8qnd+2394@...>
Message-ID: <20050715173012.62334.qmail@...>

<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> > But she does also give some interesting 
> > information about the *nature* of Patronuses.

Kneasy:
> Um.
> If you take into consideration the nature of the 
> Patroni from James and Harry...


SSSusan:
I say tomayto
You say tomahto
I say patronuses
You say patroni

Hey, I like patroni better.  I'm changing how I refer
to them from here on in.


Kneasy:
> Pity this answer came so late - we could have had 
> fun speculating on the Patronus form of Lupin, 
> Sirius, Hagrid, Molly, et al. 

SSSusan:
Hadrid -- a dragon
Lupin -- a dungbeetle (something for Dot)
Snape -- a bat
Sirius -- something that eats bats... (what eats
bats?) so's his patronus could bully Snape's bat
patronus
Molly -- a mama grizzly bear


As for me, I'll be at Barnes & Noble at midnight with
my 9-year-old daughter and will read for a couple of
hours tonight after we make the 40-minute trip home. 
However, I will then, quite exaspiratedly, be at a
6-hour retreat tomorrow, thinking over & over, "This
is so STUPID; I could be reading."  

I still have hopes of holding a copy in my hand this
afternoon, however.  I do library acquisitions, and I
can see from the UPS tracking that our copy is HERE IN
TOWN.  Just not sure if it'll be delivered before I
leave.

Siriusly Snapey Susan




From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 17:35:59 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:35:59 -0500
Subject: We're famous! :)
Message-ID: <a6363246050715103558c45875@...>

Our local paper did an article about us (me, my husband, and daughter), and 
HP4GU is mentioned!

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=97633

If registration is required, use the login homer at ..., and the 
password homer (from bugmenot.com <http://bugmenot.com>).

-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 18:09:16 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:09:16 -0000
Subject: Remember the Great Shipping Wars?
In-Reply-To: <db8mqb+ckor@...>
Message-ID: <db8u4c+5v1e@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> 
wrote:
 
> R/H is government policy in the UK.  

As it should be.

::dodges bullets::

Joywitch Z. Curmudgeon, 13 hours away and wishing she could apparate 
to Norwich with Neil and Catherine who are only 5 HOURS away!





From heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 18:33:28 2005
From: heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:33:28 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Remember the Great Shipping Wars?
In-Reply-To: <db8u4c+5v1e@...>
References: <db8u4c+5v1e@...>
Message-ID: <1121452410.C22AFC6@...>


On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:29 am, joywitch_m_curmudgeon wrote:
>
> Joywitch Z. Curmudgeon, 13 hours away and wishing she could apparate
> to Norwich with Neil and Catherine who are only 5 HOURS away!

: commiserates

Heidi, in LA for the week



From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 18:36:56 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:36:56 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <db7p6d+c7vs@...>
Message-ID: <db8vo8+cvla@...>

Ginger said:
> I am probably the only one, but I wish we had a few more days as I 
> have been too busy to do any rereads.  I will try and squeeze in
> the last chapters of OoP before I go.

Oh, I've had this trouble, too.  Luckily, a friend lent me GoF and
OoP on CD a few weeks back.  I've been listening to them while 
making dinner and doing laundry and such -- oh, OK, and also 
while using the treadmill and while showering!  I should be
finished tonight -- good thing, because I sped-read OoP 
and barely remember it.

I'm hoping to slow down for HBP -- now that I've resigned as a HPfGU 
elf, I no longer have a deadline for finishing the book. Actually,
I'm thinking of cutting the book into little pieces, having my 
husband lock it up, and having him give me just a little bit at a 
time as a reward for getting work done -- that ought to motivate me! 

-- Judy, starting to count down the minutes





From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 18:39:31 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:39:31 -0000
Subject: HBP Pix
In-Reply-To: <db72po+9pl6@...>
Message-ID: <db8vt3+ooll@...>

I said:
> > I still can't find the back cover that everyone is posting about.
 

And Fran said:
> Try this link:
> http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?
image_location=/hbp/hbpdeluxehuge.jpg.jpg

Great!  Thanks!  I had tried The Leaky Cauldron, but for some reason, 
the site wouldn't load right on my computer.





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 18:45:12 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:45:12 -0000
Subject: FAQ Poll question finally answered
In-Reply-To: <a636324605071510287ce647b5@...>
Message-ID: <db907o+utji@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, JoAnna Wahlund <jrwahlund at g...> wrote:
> We know that James' Animagi form was a stag, but do we know that his 
> Patronus is one as well? Has JKR ever said that a wizard's Patronus is also 
> their Animagi form (or vice versa)?
> 

No, we don't know.
But would you bet hard cash that James's Patronus *isn't* a stag?
I wouldn't, even though (as you say) Jo offers a few sneaky 
circumlocutions on the subject at the end of PoA.

Maybe there'll be enlightenment by dawn tomorrow - but if not,
remind me in a few weeks when the heady excitement surrounding HBP
has abated a bit, and I'll expand on a suspicion that in CoS the Fawkes
that saved Harry in the Chamber wasn't Fawkes at all, but DD's animagus.

Kneasy





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 18:54:21 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:54:21 -0000
Subject: FAQ Poll question finally answered/Where I'll be reading
In-Reply-To: <20050715173012.62334.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <db90ot+r15c@...>

SSSusan wrote: 
> Hey, I like patroni better.  I'm changing how I refer
> to them from here on in.

Potioncat:
So do I, but herself called them Patronuses.
> 
> 
> Kneasy:
> > Pity this answer came so late - we could have had 
> > fun speculating on the Patronus form of Lupin, 
> > Sirius, Hagrid, Molly, et al. 

SSSusan:
> Molly -- a mama grizzly bear

Potioncat:
My thoughts were the same, as both of yours. As for Molly, aren't I 
correct that Arthur means Bear? Of course I think it's significant 
that Hermione's is an otter, a member of the Weasley...erm, 
weasel...family
 

And I have provided my family with baskets of clean laundry, bags of 
junk food, crock pot meals ready to go and the warning to "Leave me 
Alone!" Except that I'll have to honor my promise to my youngest to 
go see "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory". Alas, he says I cannot 
sit in the back row with a little booklight and read.






From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 19:17:00 2005
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:17:00 -0500
Subject: otter patronus
References: <db90ot+r15c@...>
Message-ID: <041d01c58971$c91df2a0$210110ac@MainDesktop>

Hi --

<<<<I think it's significant 
that Hermione's is an otter, a member of the Weasley...erm, 
weasel...family>>>>>>>

I suspect that Hermione was given the otter patronus because Rowling admitted in an interview that she hoped her own patronus would be an otter, because she likes them.  

Penny
(who cannot settle to anything today .....)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kelleythompson at kelleyscorpio.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 20:14:22 2005
From: kelleythompson at kelleyscorpio.yahoo.invalid (Kelley Thompson)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:14:22 -0500
Subject: can somebody sign me out? sniff sniff
References: <7D43809138C91E46B4BC0A6FB0F3539A07CEA612@...>
Message-ID: <01e601c58979$eac8bf40$27610945@oemcomputer>

Stephanie:
> I'm sorry to reply to the whole list for this.  But I guess I'm hoping
> for some sympathy e-mails....  Could Neal or someone
>  suspend my subscription for the next ** ack ** four weeks?  I can't
> seem to use my yahoo! Account anymore.
>
> I, I, *sniff* won't be able to read for the next three weeks as I have
a
> 21 day residential program for women, which normally I really enjoy
> organizing and directing, starting on Sunday. We have things on the
> schedule from 7 am - after 9pm everyday.  So I've made the very mature
> decision to wait until -- can you believe this -- AUGUST 6 to start
> reading HBP.

Wow, Stephanie, you have some unbelievable willpower!  I've gone ahead
and switched you to "No Mail", so the messages should stop soon (if they
haven't already).  Just give a yell when you want to be changed back.
(What's going on with your Yah account?  Maybe I can find some way to
help.)

> For the first time since PoA I won't be reading with Neal and Penny
and
> Rita and Eb and ..... Oh, it's just too much...

Oh, gosh... *hugs*  Hope these next four weeks fly by for you...

--Kelley




From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 20:41:18 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:41:18 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <42D7E03C.25385.AC3534@localhost>
Message-ID: <db971e+5opb@...>

I am having a really hard time getting any work done.  I just read a 
major spoiler, which I don't believe, and the (supposed) first two 
pages of HBP, which *looked* right, but are so totally unlike 
anything else at all in the other 5 books that I have my doubts.  I 
also know where a certain someone (a member of this group, I 
believe) has posted a (locked) copy of the first chapter but I'm 
going to be a good girl and not use any one of several methods I 
have thought up for viewing it.  I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.

Here's what I *am* going to do:

I'm going to sit here for the next 4 hours and do my work!  Next 
week is going to be the Week From Hell at work, with 7 meetings 
already scheduled.

Then, I'm going to go home.  Amy's going to meet me at the train 
station, we're going to have a quick bite to eat, then we're going 
to go see Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.  Since I love Roald 
Dahl, Tim Burton, and Johnny Depp, this would ordinarily be an 
incredibly exciting event all by itself, but then of course after 
the movie, we will go home, pet the dog, put on our pointy hats, and 
head over to our friendly neighborhood independent bookstore and 
push all the little kids out of our way to be as close to the front 
of the line as possible so that we can get our books on the stroke 
of midnight.  Well, actually, Amy probably won't let me push them, 
but maybe I can distract her.

Then, we'll rush home, toss our pointy hats and the rest of our 
clothes to the floor and hurriedly put on our pajamas.  We'll run 
into the bedroom, where there will be a cat snoring at the food of 
the bed  and a dog snoozing on the floor.   Then, we will curl up in 
bed with a bowl of popcorn, bag of pistachios, and box of chocolate -
- we'll tear open our books and then WE'LL GET TO READ Harry Potter 
and the Half Blood Prince!

Well, if we don't fall asleep first, that is.  Maybe we'd better 
stop for coffee somewhere along the way. 

BTW, I hate all you people who live further east than I do who will 
get to read HBP in just a few hours.  I'm not talking to any of 
you!  (Until Sunday or so, anyway.)

Joywitch Z. Curmudgeon





From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 21:48:12 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:48:12 -0000
Subject: Patronuses/Patroni/Patronums (semi-spoiler)
In-Reply-To: <db90ot+r15c@...>
Message-ID: <db9aus+4nle@...>

(Yes, I know "Patronums" makes no sense as the plural.) 

Potioncat said:
...> As for Molly, aren't I 
> correct that Arthur means Bear? Of course I think it's significant 
> that Hermione's is an otter, a member of the Weasley...erm, 
> weasel...family

Since you just said "erm", that reminds me -- is "Hermione" related
 to the word "ermine"? (Which is spelled "hermine" in French.)  I 
realize that Hermione may be related to the name "Hermes" but 
perhaps the word ermine is also related to Hermes?  

-- Judy, thinking that wolverines are also related to weasels, and 
wondering if any of the Weasleys have a University of Michigan 
football player as their Patronus


Spoiler about JKR's website follows.....
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

OK, so JKR says Dunbledore's patronus is a Phoenix. I've long assumed 
that Fawkes originally belonged to Godric Gryffindor.  Hmmm, I wonder 
if that could still work -- maybe Fawkes was given to Dumbledore at a 
young age?  (Dumbledore's age, that is, not Fawkes'.)






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 21:49:56 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:49:56 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <db971e+5opb@...>
Message-ID: <db9b24+rg5t@...>

Joywitch wrote:

> Then, we'll rush home, toss our pointy hats and the rest of our 
> clothes to the floor and 

...read a book.

*sporfle*

David






From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 21:50:07 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:50:07 +0100
Subject: Off to see the wizard...
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050715213612.00995440@...>

OK, stop the groaning, that's the best I could do...

I'm on my way out of the house to see wassup in the bookshops and get my 
book (which hasn't been pre-ordered).

I've made a mound of sarnies (some cheese, some ham, some egg, all with 
salad, if you're asking) which are waiting in the fridge, I've made  a 
jugfull of red currant juice from the bushes growing in the garden (great 
diluted with rum or vodka!), I've got a bowl of jelly beans (not Bertie 
Bott's, regrettably) and a big bag (well, two big bags) of Nik Naks*.  I'm 
fully stocked up on ice and ciggies. I've already moved my comfy chair to 
the patio waiting for my return in a couple of hours or so.

The weather forecaster on the BBC a few moments ago said (I kid you not) 
that "it's perfect for sitting outdoors, reading a certain book all night 
and day - if you need that long" (admittedly, his forecast came hot on the 
heels of the report the BBC has already shown half a dozen times today of 
the kids queued up outside Waterstone's in London). I have my flashlight 
and I shall have a leisurely stroll home from the bookshop (approx. 50 
mins) while reading en route. On my return home, I hope to settle in for as 
long as it takes.

However, if my experience with (and reaction to) OotP is any indication, 
I'll probably call it a night around 3am and read the book slowly over the 
next week.

I'm only hoping that there'll be more people in and around the bookshops 
tonight than there were a couple of years ago for OotP: for a city of over 
2 million inhabitants, Birmingham showed very badly with only about 50 
people milling about waiting for the shops to open. Then again, there were 
no "events" last time, but there's meant to be some street entertainment 
and suchlike tonight according to the media...

* http://www.nik-naks.com/ for the non-Brits




From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 21:59:09 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:59:09 -0000
Subject: We're famous! :)
In-Reply-To: <a6363246050715103558c45875@...>
Message-ID: <db9bjd+jap9@...>

JoAnna Wahlund wrote:
> Our local paper did an article about us (me, my husband, and 
daughter), and 
> HP4GU is mentioned!
> 
> http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=97633
> 
> If registration is required, use the login homer at n..., and the 
> password homer (from bugmenot.com <http://bugmenot.com>).

Congrats, JoAnna!  I didn't know that you met your husband via Harry 
Potter!
 
I got in using mugwort@ hotmail.com [omit space], password muggy, 
also obtained from bugmenot.com

However, my eyebrows raised at this quote:
"Their first face-to-face meeting happened the night of the midnight 
release party for "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.... After 
getting their books, they talked in the parking lot until 2 a.m., 
JoAnna said."

WHAT?  You waited a whole two hours to read the book?  Just because 
you finally got to meet the man with whom you had a long-standing 
email relationship?  What kind of fan is that?*

-- Judy, who should be working but can't; the anticipation is getting 
to her.  


*This is a joke.  





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 22:00:38 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:00:38 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <42D7E03C.25385.AC3534@localhost>
Message-ID: <db9bm6+66cq@...>

Rita, Tim (Rita's sigother), Constance Vigilance and I will meet 
at Barnes and Noble, have dinner, pick up our books and audio
CD's and adjourn to an all night (or as late as we can manage 
to stay awake)  read-in at my place, joined by my son Mike and 
his friends who are having their own line party at a different 
bookstore.

I will not, not, not speed read this time.

Pippin
(*sure* I won't <g>)





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 22:05:47 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:05:47 -0000
Subject: I'm so excited, I can hardly bear it!!!!
Message-ID: <db9bvr+rio@...>

......and it is comforting to know other adults are geting geared up 
for this as well. My family thinks I am nuts!  I feel like a kid at 
Christmas.....I wonder if the night sky will be filled with fireworks...

Cheers,
Fran







From triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 22:16:19 2005
From: triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid (Trina)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:16:19 -0000
Subject: So how will I be reading
Message-ID: <db9cjj+jt8m@...>

Well, *ordinarily* I would be at the Books-a-Million midnight party, 
pick up my pre-paid book, go home, make a Yes-Mom-I-made-it-home-
alright-after-driving-across-town-in-the-middle-of-the-night-I-am-now-
on-radio-silence-DO-NOT-CALL-I-WILL-NOT-ANSWER!phone call, and 
proceed with my marathon read (complete with the necessary nibbles 
and a pot or two of coffee).  

Ordinarily, that is.  Unfortunately for me, my cousin's baby shower 
is Sunday. In another state. It takes about 31/2 hours (on a cat-free 
drive) to my parents' house, so plans have changed.  I am still 
picking it up at midnight and still have the nibbles planned, but 
(and this just kills me!) am leaving the book IN THE CAR!, going to 
bed with reading having to wait till I get to my folks' house.  And I 
think I'm going to have to be social over dinner, so I will have to 
put it down. (pouty face!)  But I will try to have it read before we 
go to the shower.  

When 7 comes out I don't care what family doins are in the offing-I'm 
staying home!

Trina






From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 22:24:55 2005
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:24:55 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: So how will you be reading? (& pics)
In-Reply-To: <034001c58937$7bad2ac0$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F20D910C44B91231898C93AD0D00@...>

Greetings, All,

I won't be reading until Tuesday (unless by some miracle I receive my copy 
from the UK tomorrow).   No midnight party (I most likely couldn't stay 
awake that late anyway) for me, since I work tomorrow.

When I do get to read it, it will most likely be as quickly as possible, in 
order to get back to Patrick O'Brian.  I'll be sharing my couch with my dog 
(and possibly the cat), drink (most likely whiskey) and cigarettes close at 
hand.

I notice GrandPre's drawings at the top of each chapter, & really wish I 
didn't.   I looked at the  cover pic & really couldn't tell a thing from it. 
  (Can you tell I'm not impressed with GrandPre?  I like to know what I'm 
looking at)

Parker, wishing she could be as excited as you all seem to be





From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 23:07:46 2005
From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:07:46 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <db9bm6+66cq@...>
References: <42D7E03C.25385.AC3534@localhost> <db9bm6+66cq@...>
Message-ID: <80f25c3a05071516077759b056@...>

I'm leaving the office now en route to my favorite Chinese restaurant
with my family where we will meet up with Joy, then go on to B&N to
pick up our books and, while we're waiting, help the kids select which
of the dozen books on their summer reading list they want to write
reports on.

Although I might peek at the first chapter tonight, I expect to rise
early and read as much as possible until it's time for my son's
baseball game.  I shall be praying for rain, a prayer that is
reasonably likely to be granted, given the weather forecast.

Unlike Pippin, I vow not to read as slowly and deliberately as I read
OOP.  Picking up on so many clues spoiled any surprise, which is one
reason I never really warmed to OOP.  I want to *love* HBP.

I aim to be finished by the end of the day tomorrow.  You'll know I'm
done if you see me online, because I am turning off the computer now
and won't turn it back on till I'm done.

Debbie
with a tinge of envy for those who must be picking up their copies
even as I post



From SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 23:22:36 2005
From: SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid (songbird3411)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 23:22:36 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <db9bm6+66cq@...>
Message-ID: <db9gfs+9g3t@...>

Sadly, I am still at work.  And I will be at work at 8am tomorrow 
until 5pm.  Don't worry though, I really am still a Potter addict.  
I entertained the thought of asking for the day off.  However, I am 
going to a family reunion next week and already have 5 days off on 
the schedule for that.  So, I figured it would be a bit of overkill 
to ask for a day off to read Harry Potter.  (Not to mention a hit to 
my paycheck.)

I am having the book delivered to work tomorrow, though.  Hopefully 
we will be very slow, so I can read while at work.  I loathe the 
thought of all you Brits (and Aussies, etc.) getting to read this 
book a full 12 hours before I do.  Why, you all will be finished 
before I even get a copy in my hands!  Groan.  Why must my state be 
in the Pacific Time zone in the summer????

Also, I envy Shaun his winter.  My city has been 117 degrees 
Farenheit for the last two days.  Winter doesn't sound so bad in 
comparison.

I am signing off from the list now.  Can't risk being spoiled by all 
you lucky folks who are reading before me.  Already reading, even?  
Alas.  I shall spend tonight contemplating the Patroni for the 
members of the Order.  (Thanks JKR.)  Or maybe rereading OoTP.

Mindy- who also will not be reading the book jacket








From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 15 21:46:01 2005
From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:46:01 EDT
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: So how will you be reading?
Message-ID: <id.15072005174601.00000@FPE>

I've just received an email from my on line bookstore - from which I pre-ordered *months* ago - that said I might not get my book until as late as 7 pm tomorrow evening. *sniff sniff* I expect I shall arrange my favorite comfy chair facing the front door and *will* it to arrive. I won't budge until it does.  Well, perhaps I may take a potty break or two...

But then, oh joy! oh rapture! I will slowly read, savoring each word. Hubby has promised to be as quiet as a mouse while I am immersed. I plan to read until I'm finished and then promptly reread in case I've missed something.



From drednort at drednort.geo.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 06:48:50 2005
From: drednort at drednort.geo.yahoo.invalid (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:48:50 +1000
Subject: HBP Spoilers contained within
In-Reply-To: <db9gfs+9g3t@...>
References: <db9bm6+66cq@...>
Message-ID: <42D93A72.1046.18BC33F@localhost>

I finished HBP two and a half hours ago and have been digesting 
events ever since. This post does contain spoilers.

S S S S S S S
P P P P P P P
O O O O O O O
I I I I I I I
L L L L L L L
E E E E E E E
R R R R R R R
S S S S S S S
S S S S S S S
H H H H H H H
O O O O O O O
U U U U U U U
L L L L L L L
D D D D D D D
B B B B B B B
E E E E E E E
K K K K K K K
E E E E E E E
P P P P P P P
T T T T T T T
W W W W W W W
E E E E E E E
L L L L L L L
L L L L L L L
O O O O O O O
U U U U U U U
T T T T T T T
O O O O O O O
S S S S S S S
I I I I I I I
G G G G G G G
H H H H H H H
T T T T T T T

All right - one first impression.

Snape - what can I say. It's going to be awfully hard to keep 
defending anything about him at this point, but I will probably try 
anyway. I'm still not convinced he's irredeemably evil, or even that 
he's not ultimately on the side of the angels. He took an unbreakable 
oath - to do what Draco could not do - and he fulfilled it. 

I do wonder... this is speculation and I need to think a lot more 
about this, but I want to believe that Dumbledore was right. That 
Snape could be trusted.

And so I have to say that I do wonder if, during his final moments 
Dumbledore wasn't pleading for Snape to kill him. It was all over - 
Dumbledore was at the mercy of the Deatheaters, and nobody could save 
him.

They were only delaying to allow Draco his chance.

Dumbledore knew he was a dead man - and I am certain that he did not 
what Draco to kill him - or to face the consequences of refusing to 
do so.

And so he pleaded - "For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading."

What was the plea? Was it 'Save me'.

Or was it 'Kill me.' Kill me and save Draco. 

I'm hoping for the latter - but it's going to be a long time before 
we find out.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at ... | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 13:40:18 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:40:18 -0000
Subject: I met the famous people! plus a spoiler at the end
Message-ID: <dbb2o2+tsoo@...>

Knowing that JoAnna was headed to Barnes and Noble, I secured a 
nametag-like patch in which I listed groups of which I was a member 
in hopes of attracting her attention.

It worked.  I think we can excuse them for sitting and talking in the 
parking lot until 2 am the night they met.  I talked to them until 
almost 1 am and found them to be delightful and extremely funny 
company.  And I'm not even in love with them.

The funniest part was after they bought the book.  They were a couple 
hundred in line ahead of me, and after they had bought their copy, 
they came back and talked to me.  JoAnna kept opening the book to 
random spots and yelling out things like "Wow!  Who would have 
thought that Snape and Trelawney were married!"  

Then they were recognized as the people in the paper and were the 
coolest thing there aside from the book.  Several of us had to be 
herded by the staff as we had forgotten to move up in line.

And a good time was had by all.

SPOILER

SPOILER

SPOILER

YOU'VE READ THE BOOK, RIGHT?

LAST CHANCE

DON'T READ ON IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED

YOU HAVEN'T?  

WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE- GET READING!

OK, ENOUGH SPOILER SPACE

I honestly don't know what to think of Snape.  As a Snape-fan, I want 
to believe that he is on the good side for the reasons Shaun 
mentioned.  Allowing Draco to remain innocent of murder increases his 
chances at redemption.  

I figured when Snape made that vow, and then was DADA teacher that he 
would break the vow and die from that.

On another toplc: misprints.
In the US edition, I found what I believe to be 3 typos or errors.  
Am I wrong?

Chapter 1, Page 10:  ...the Prime Minister could not help but fear 
that the next time Fudge appeared it would be with graver news 
still.  The *site*, therefore of Fudge stepping out of the fire once 
more, looking disheveled and fretful... 

Shouldn't that have been "sight"? 

Chapter 3, Page 38:  The misty *fug* his breath had left on the 
window sparkled...

Shouldn't that have been *fog*?

Chapter 23, Page 502:  ...Horcruxes in the plural, Harry, which I do 
not believe any other wizard has ever had.  Yet it *fitted*:  Lord 
Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing years...

Shouldn't it be "fit"?

If someone with better English skills could tell me I'm wrong on 
these, I'll be able to read better in the future.  It will bug me 
until then.

Ginger, hoping everyone had a nice Harry Potter Day





From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 14:14:58 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:14:58 +1000
Subject: SPOILER [the_old_crowd] I met the famous people! plus a spoiler at the end
In-Reply-To: <dbb2o2+tsoo@...>
References: <dbb2o2+tsoo@...>
Message-ID: <20050716141458.GI19986@...>

EEK

SPOILERS

EEK

SPOILERS

LAST ONE TO READ THE BOOK IS A SILLY PENGUIN

EEK


Ginger:
> Knowing that JoAnna was headed to Barnes and Noble, I secured a 
> nametag-like patch in which I listed groups of which I was a member 
> in hopes of attracting her attention.

Sorry, who?

> I honestly don't know what to think of Snape.  As a Snape-fan, I want 
> to believe that he is on the good side for the reasons Shaun 
> mentioned.  Allowing Draco to remain innocent of murder increases his 
> chances at redemption.  
> 
> I figured when Snape made that vow, and then was DADA teacher that he 
> would break the vow and die from that.

It's certainly arguable from a Snape-fan POV. But it won't convince Harry.
Mind you, Harry, despite the belief of friends and teachers, is not going to
convince the Ministry or Skeeter. Just like the GoF problem... I also expected
his protective reaction to Ginny but it still makes me violently ill. On the
topic of ships H/H seems busted as is Remus/H. MAGIC DISHWASHER is taking a
beating. Is there still hope for FITD and OBHWF?


> On another toplc: misprints.
> In the US edition, I found what I believe to be 3 typos or errors.  
> Am I wrong?
> 
> Chapter 1, Page 10:  ...the Prime Minister could not help but fear 
> that the next time Fudge appeared it would be with graver news 
> still.  The *site*, therefore of Fudge stepping out of the fire once 
> more, looking disheveled and fretful... 

Bloomsbury p15 spelt correctly.

> 
> Chapter 3, Page 38:  The misty *fug* his breath had left on the 
> window sparkled...
> 
> Shouldn't that have been *fog*?

Bloomsbury p42 is spelt fug too, but fug according to dictionary.com:

n: (British informal) an airless smoky smelly atmosphere

> Chapter 23, Page 502:  ...Horcruxes in the plural, Harry, which I do 
> not believe any other wizard has ever had.  Yet it *fitted*:  Lord 
> Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing years...
> 
> Shouldn't it be "fit"?

Bloomsbury p469 uses "fitted" also. Part tense of "fit". The Queen's English
m'dear :)


ewe2, the penguin that just keeps on giving, long after other battery-operated
penguins give up.

-- 
sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me.




From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 14:37:13 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:37:13 -0000
Subject: HBP: spoilers, first reaction
Message-ID: <dbb62p+rl9e@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E

Hum an oddly disjointed book and more conventional adventure, way 
too much Harry (though fortunately not capslock). All felt rushed 
and rambling at the same time....

Well the shippers will be happy!

Lots of answers.

Not however GH, or what happened to Sirius (which was decidedly 
glossed over IMO).

Still wriggle room for Snape though.

I hated the 'prince' conceit.

Time for a re read.

Regards
Jo

Looking forward to hearing about all the stuff I've missed, 
misinterpreted or failed to connect.







From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 14:56:29 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:56:29 -0000
Subject: HBP: spoiler rolling balls
Message-ID: <dbb76t+2rs9@...>

Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space

Just to start the ball rolling how about
Regulus Alphard Black?

Regards
Jo





From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 15:08:20 2005
From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:08:20 -0700
Subject: Rita
References: <d93nkd+10ikr@...>
Message-ID: <016901c58a18$34a4f040$01fea8c0@...>

Just in case...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E

I concede the fight.  You were right on
the Icky stance of Voldemort.

Saitaina
****
"I like kids in theory...it's the
practice I'm having trouble with."

"The new food pyramid looks as if all
you have to do to be healthy in America
is be gay and exercise."

"If you're going to sing in the shower,
don't start with a song that begins
with 'help'."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 17:40:34 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:40:34 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] I met the famous people! plus a spoiler at the end
In-Reply-To: <dbb2o2+tsoo@...>
References: <dbb2o2+tsoo@...>
Message-ID: <a6363246050716104040686270@...>

Yes, we met Ginger, and she's terrific!!

I have finished the book, and loved it. Will comment more once my brain has 
stopped reeling from shock. 

On 7/16/05, quigonginger <quigonginger at ...> wrote:
> 
>  Knowing that JoAnna was headed to Barnes and Noble, I secured a 
> nametag-like patch in which I listed groups of which I was a member 
> in hopes of attracting her attention.
> 
> It worked. I think we can excuse them for sitting and talking in the 
> parking lot until 2 am the night they met. I talked to them until 
> almost 1 am and found them to be delightful and extremely funny 
> company. And I'm not even in love with them.
> 
> The funniest part was after they bought the book. They were a couple 
> hundred in line ahead of me, and after they had bought their copy, 
> they came back and talked to me. JoAnna kept opening the book to 
> random spots and yelling out things like "Wow! Who would have 
> thought that Snape and Trelawney were married!" 
> 
> Then they were recognized as the people in the paper and were the 
> coolest thing there aside from the book. Several of us had to be 
> herded by the staff as we had forgotten to move up in line.
> 
> And a good time was had by all.
> 
> SPOILER
> 
> SPOILER
> 
> SPOILER
> 
> YOU'VE READ THE BOOK, RIGHT?
> 
> LAST CHANCE
> 
> DON'T READ ON IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED
> 
> YOU HAVEN'T? 
> 
> WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE- GET READING!
> 
> OK, ENOUGH SPOILER SPACE
> 
> I honestly don't know what to think of Snape. As a Snape-fan, I want 
> to believe that he is on the good side for the reasons Shaun 
> mentioned. Allowing Draco to remain innocent of murder increases his 
> chances at redemption. 
> 
> I figured when Snape made that vow, and then was DADA teacher that he 
> would break the vow and die from that.
> 
> On another toplc: misprints.
> In the US edition, I found what I believe to be 3 typos or errors. 
> Am I wrong?
> 
> Chapter 1, Page 10: ...the Prime Minister could not help but fear 
> that the next time Fudge appeared it would be with graver news 
> still. The *site*, therefore of Fudge stepping out of the fire once 
> more, looking disheveled and fretful... 
> 
> Shouldn't that have been "sight"? 
> 
> Chapter 3, Page 38: The misty *fug* his breath had left on the 
> window sparkled...
> 
> Shouldn't that have been *fog*?
> 
> Chapter 23, Page 502: ...Horcruxes in the plural, Harry, which I do 
> not believe any other wizard has ever had. Yet it *fitted*: Lord 
> Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing years...
> 
> Shouldn't it be "fit"?
> 
> If someone with better English skills could tell me I'm wrong on 
> these, I'll be able to read better in the future. It will bug me 
> until then.
> 
> Ginger, hoping everyone had a nice Harry Potter Day
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 18:24:36 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:24:36 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: We're famous! :)
In-Reply-To: <db9bjd+jap9@...>
References: <a6363246050715103558c45875@...>
	 <db9bjd+jap9@...>
Message-ID: <a636324605071611245a333c4b@...>

Well, you see, I'd already preordered my copy from Barnes &
Noble.com<http://Noble.com>,
and I didn't feel right ignoring Collin to read what was *his* copy of the 
book... my copy didn't arrive 'til the next morning. ;)

On 7/15/05, Judy <judy at ...> wrote:
> 
>  JoAnna Wahlund wrote:
> > Our local paper did an article about us (me, my husband, and 
> daughter), and 
> > HP4GU is mentioned!
> > 
> > http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=97633
> > 
> > If registration is required, use the login homer at n..., and the 
> > password homer (from bugmenot.com <http://bugmenot.com> <
> http://bugmenot.com>).
> 
> Congrats, JoAnna! I didn't know that you met your husband via Harry 
> Potter!
> 
> I got in using mugwort@ hotmail.com <http://hotmail.com> [omit space], 
> password muggy, 
> also obtained from bugmenot.com <http://bugmenot.com>
> 
> However, my eyebrows raised at this quote:
> "Their first face-to-face meeting happened the night of the midnight 
> release party for "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.... After 
> getting their books, they talked in the parking lot until 2 a.m., 
> JoAnna said."
> 
> WHAT? You waited a whole two hours to read the book? Just because 
> you finally got to meet the man with whom you had a long-standing 
> email relationship? What kind of fan is that?*
> 
> -- Judy, who should be working but can't; the anticipation is getting 
> to her. 
> 
> 
> *This is a joke. 
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eloiseherisson at fritter_my_wig.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 18:32:46 2005
From: eloiseherisson at fritter_my_wig.yahoo.invalid (fritter_my_wig)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:32:46 -0000
Subject: SPOILER Ch1 Origin of Gryffindor Lion?
Message-ID: <dbbjse+345j@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Hope that's enough.

I've only read two chapters so far, family commitments meaning that I 
have to fit in odd moments between other tasks.

Someone has probably said this by now, so apologies if they have.
I just wondered why JKR had hit on the name Scrimgeour and looked it 
up.

It's the name of a Scottish clan, and of the Earls of Dundee. Their 
coat of arms? A lion rampant Or on a Jules shield (in other words, a 
gold lion on a red shield). Familiar, what? In this case, the lion 
brandishes a scimitar (the name denotes a fencer or fencing master).
The motto is Dissipate (= Disperse!, presumably referring to the 
enemy).

It makes me wonder whether this was not in fact the original 
inspiration for the Gryffindor lion. 

~Eloise






From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 19:28:28 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:28:28 -0000
Subject: HBP: spoiler rolling balls
In-Reply-To: <dbb76t+2rs9@...>
Message-ID: <dbbn4s+qek5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> 
wrote:
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> 
> Just to start the ball rolling how about
> Regulus Alphard Black?
> 
> Regards
> Jo

Ginger:  Alphard!  Yes!  Thank you, that's been bugging me all day.  
It was worse than trying to figure out SPT and thinking of motor oil.

Thank you to my dear penguin.  I now have a new word in my 
vocabulary: fug.  Who knew?  OK, probably all of you, but isn't it 
nice I have a place to learn these things?  

Ginger, starting read #2.





From dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 22:16:54 2005
From: dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid (dorbandb)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:16:54 -0000
Subject: HBP: spoiler rolling balls
In-Reply-To: <dbb76t+2rs9@...>
Message-ID: <dbc10m+8ls9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> wrote:
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> 
> Just to start the ball rolling how about
> Regulus Alphard Black?
> 
> Regards
> Jo




Yes, Jo - That was definitely the first (only?) person I thought of. 
But I couldn't remember where his middle name was mentioned.  Thanks
for that.  I'm not sure what that gets us though.  Regulus is dead,
and the horcrux that cost AD his life isn't really the horcrux at all.
 Granted, it will take a slow-witted guy like me several readings to
see things more clearly, but my first thought is that the real
horcrux, that Regulus had at one point, is among the trinkets at 12GP
- unless Diadulus Diggle has pilfered it already - unaware of it's
significance, of course.  Since Harry now owns 12GP, he'll find that
one easily enough.  That still leaves 3 others...

Some other first impressions:

It seems awfully late in the game to introduce the concept of
horcruxes, and to leave 4 of them unaccounted for.  Golly, it seems
She could devote a whole book on the tracking and destruction of
*each* one - but there's only one book left.  I thought She was going
to have a mighty time trying to tie up all the loose threads in the
final 2 books just with the info that we already had - now it seems
there are *more* loose ends than ever, and I have no idea how she'll
work it out.  Book 7 will need be almost entirely exposition to get
everything accounted for, dontcha think?!?!?  So many issues to
resolve...I almost can't imagine that she'll get to *everything* in
the last book.  Here I am thinking about the next book already...sorry.

I thought the scene where Snape AK's Dumbledore was powerfully
written.  I readily admit to shedding several tears during the last
hour or so of reading.  The notion that it was effectively a mercy
killing never entered my mind.  I heard Dumbledore's "pleading" as
just that - "Please Severus, don't let me down now..."  Of course,
I've never thought Snape was anything close to a good guy, regardless
of Dumbledore's trust.  When he entered into the unbreakable oath,
that sealed the deal for me in terms of his trustworthiness.

More later...need time to think...and mourn.

Brian










From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 22:24:30 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:24:30 +0100
Subject: HBP - first impressions
Message-ID: <41FAC92F-4592-4D18-B25C-8181AB525372@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
A
N
D
A
B
I
T
M
O
R
E


Firstly - Bugger.
Bugger bugger bugger.
The fans have been running round in circles and vanishing up orifices  
again.
Felix Felicitas - not a person at all,
The leonine character - nothing to do with GG, it's another scummy  
politician!
No  cull of the Weasleys; ah, well - maybe next time.
Sevvy is HBP! That's going a bit far - credulity stretched somewhat  
there.
And ole Snapey gets the DADA job - for  less than the standard year.

Apart from serious outbreaks of totally unnecessary slushiness (Jo  
seems determined to pair absolutely *everybody* off - even Filch and  
Pince), this one is the best in the series so far IMO. Opening  
chapter totally unexpected but strangely believable when recalling  
some of the oddballs that have lurked around 10  Downing Street in  
the past few years.

Lots of deaths off-stage providing a very dark atmosphere, almost  
brooding, a touch of the old Lovecraft unspeakables in the cave  
(liked Harry trying to revive DD with corpse soup) - though the whole  
was leavened with some nice humorous touches. Enjoyed the female  
bitchiness - reminds me of a dept. I used to run. Children's book? I  
bet there'll be many that don't think so.

Haven't changed my opinion of Snape - he's still anti-Voldy, I think.
RAB? Yep. Agree with mooseming - Regulus is favourite for that slot.
Harry as Horcrux looks good too - it keeps Possession Theory on the  
boil.

(Carry over from previous post - sort of - plurals: Patroni - as with  
hippopotami and shouldn't Horcruxes be Horcruces? Yes, pedantry lurks  
here. Perhaps Jo doesn't think that kids get a decent education these  
days.)

There were little bits and pieces that seemed to modify or qualify  
statements that have appeared in previous volumes - must re-check.  
And there's  that very devious plot twist to nail down that had Jo  
chortling to herself.
Need a re-read. Sort out a few details, make sure I haven't misread  
something.
When the golf has finished.

Kneasy



From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 22:51:08 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Mike & Susan Gray)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:51:08 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Spoilers contained within
In-Reply-To: <42D93A72.1046.18BC33F@localhost>
Message-ID: <001e01c58a58$db1d41d0$0200a8c0@hwin>

Aaargh! I sent this out six hours ago, but on the wrong account. It's
out of date now, but I'll resend anyway.

* * * * 

Well now. That was quite a read! I'm exhausted, and I have a bit of a
headache, but that was a good read. All I say on this side of the
spoilers is that Jo has decided to shake things up.

> S S S S S S S
> P P P P P P P
> O O O O O O O
> I I I I I I I
> L L L L L L L
> E E E E E E E
> R R R R R R R
> S S S S S S S
> S S S S S S S
> H H H H H H H
> O O O O O O O
> U U U U U U U
> L L L L L L L
> D D D D D D D
> B B B B B B B
> E E E E E E E
> K K K K K K K
> E E E E E E E
> P P P P P P P
> T T T T T T T
> W W W W W W W
> E E E E E E E
> L L L L L L L
> L L L L L L L
> O O O O O O O
> U U U U U U U
> T T T T T T T
> O O O O O O O
> S S S S S S S
> I I I I I I I
> G G G G G G G
> H H H H H H H
> T T T T T T T

First off, I LIKE this one! Maybe she overworked the tearful ending -
maybe I was just fatigued - but overall, I like the way she has worked
this book. It was scary. Good funny teenage romantic moments. I would
have liked to see more of the Durseleys, but I'm delighted that she has
got the length back down a bit.
 
> Snape - what can I say. It's going to be awfully hard to keep
> defending anything about him at this point, but I will probably try 
> anyway. I'm still not convinced he's irredeemably evil, or even that 
> he's not ultimately on the side of the angels. He took an unbreakable 
> oath - to do what Draco could not do - and he fulfilled it. 

Snape - hm. Jo has her man well in hand, I think. I just don't know what
way he's going to jump - I'm very intrigued. You can argue it either
way. Was Dumbledore right or wrong? We will, I'm sure.

And I'm happy about how she's handled Draco. From statements in
interviews I was expecting Draco to stay on as a one dimensional
mini-baddie - which she has shot down beautifully. It makes you wonder:
has Movie!Draco influenced her more than she should admit? I was
certainly glad to see that he was suffering from conscience rather than
a bad case of Evil-Overlord-Syndrom.

I liked Harry and Ron this time, too. Harry has managed to turn off the
CAPS key and he is finally coming across as someone who could turn into
a real leader and hero, making tough choices and acting like a real
friend and less. I like the new Harry - he's really intersting me this
time round. Ron also seemed to be coming into his own, in a
warts-and-all sort of way.

Anyone want to keep debating about the power in the room?? Looks like Jo
decided to spell things out for us. Jo also continues to grapple with
questions about free will and destiny in the prophecy chapter. 

Well, well, well. I'm a happy camper. I just wish Aberforth hadn't
missed the boat this time.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 22:52:32 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:52:32 -0000
Subject: More first impressions
Message-ID: <dbc33g+g3nf@...>

By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space
By our correspondent Phil Space

Hm.  Same first thought for R.A.B as the others. 

I felt this had more of a 'GOF' feel to it compared to OOP - a 
central mystery to solve, all sorts of red herrings: was Tonks under 
Imperius?  Was Pince?  What was Mundungus doing in Hogsmeade?  
Really enjoyed the Spinners End chapter and loved that the 'Lion 
man' was not the DADA, not the HBP.  Doesn't stop me disliking that 
Snape went back to Voldemort at the end of GOF: it was so obviously 
what we were *supposed* to think that I refused to believe it could 
be true.

Some reservations about the Horlickses - I still don't understand 
how they are supposed to have helped the portion of V's soul that 
was still in his body survive at Godric's Hollow.

Agreed that Snape still has wiggle-room - knowing that Draco was 
after him, did Dumbledore discuss possible outcomes with Snape and 
consider that this offered the best overall chance of doing 
Voldemort in?

Some things that I expected not to happen till Book 7: Snape as 
DADA, Dumbledore being offed (it offends my sense of symmetry that 
the characters of Book 1 Chapter 1 won't all be around for Book 7 
Chapter the last), Shipping outcomes apparently laid down (the fact 
that H/R and H/G have happened - more or less - in Book 6 already 
gives some hope to their opponents).

Evil!Lupin survives but has some challenges.  Vampire!Snape IMO does 
not - at least if it turns out it will seem a needless 
embellishment, IMO.  Oh, and speaking of Lupin, what is it with the 
wolf-names that parents give their children?  Fenrir Greyback indeed!

My ideas on Voldemort having mother-love protection probably out the 
window though there is a straw in that it's not really explained 
why, as a witch, Merope died.

LOLLIPOPS seems ever more likely, though that won't stop me thinking 
it irredeemably lame.

David, off to fetch his son





From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 23:03:19 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Mike & Susan Gray)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:03:19 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP - first impressions
In-Reply-To: <41FAC92F-4592-4D18-B25C-8181AB525372@...>
Message-ID: <002001c58a5a$8eb65190$0200a8c0@hwin>

Barry wronte,

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> A
> N
> D
> A
> B
> I
> T
> M
> O
> R
> E
> 
> 
> Apart from serious outbreaks of totally unnecessary slushiness (Jo  
> seems determined to pair absolutely *everybody* off - even Filch and  
> Pince), this one is the best in the series so far IMO. 

After a second and third read of the last 40 or so pages in the train to
and from our football game, I'd like to second the notion. This book is
GOOD. Jo's writing is tough and robust and emotional. This passage
(despite Jo's CAPS troubles) really does it for me:

'DON'T - ' screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman,
as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in
the burning house behind them, '- CALL ME COWARD!"

Harry, Snape and Draco move me deeply here. And Dumbledore's interaction
with Draco is off the charts.

For me at least, Jo's hit a home run. (BTW, and I think the lovey-slushy
stuff is cute, and also ironic. Jo's winking at us and snickering in the
background.)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 23:07:01 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:07:01 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers contained within
In-Reply-To: <001e01c58a58$db1d41d0$0200a8c0@hwin>
Message-ID: <dbc3ul+rif6@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike & Susan Gray" <aberforthsgoat at h...> 
wrote:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
A
N
D
A
B
I
T
M
O
R
E

> Anyone want to keep debating about the power in the room?? Looks like Jo
> decided to spell things out for us. Jo also continues to grapple with
> questions about free will and destiny in the prophecy chapter. 
>

OK. You win that one on points.
It was the power to love, not love itself, if I understand DD correctly.

But something that struck me while posting elsewhere - a bit of symbology.

We have GG's sword, HH's cup, SS's jewel - those are three of the Tarot suits.
The fourth is Wands. 

Where is RR's wand? 
A possible clue to book 7 less than 24 hours after book 6 hits the streets.
Fun, ain't it?

Kneasy









From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 16 23:50:20 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:50:20 -0000
Subject: HBP: meant to say...
Message-ID: <dbc6fs+hc2c@...>

Sorry - forgot the prefix last time

Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla
Special reportage from Polly Filla

I thought the Inferi didn't really fulfill their potential.  When it 
was explained what they were I was hoping for a 'be careful what you 
wish for' moment for the fandom involving a jerking, twitching 
Sirius Black, or at least a sudden unpleasant meeting with Amelia 
Bones or Emmeline Vance.

David, wondering if R A Butler never made it to Muggle Prime 
Minister because he got an urgent call from a portrait...





From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 00:00:31 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:00:31 -0000
Subject: More first impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbc33g+g3nf@...>
Message-ID: <dbc72v+o83a@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> By our correspondent Phil Space
> 
> Hm.  Same first thought for R.A.B as the others. 
> 
> Agreed that Snape still has wiggle-room - knowing that Draco was 
> after him, did Dumbledore discuss possible outcomes with Snape and 
> consider that this offered the best overall chance of doing 
> Voldemort in?

Here's the question I have about these events.

Bellatrix tells us that you have to mean it for Crucio to work.  Can 
surrogate anger/emotion be used to do an Unforgivable?  That is to 
say, do you have to want to make *that* person hurt/dead, or is it 
enough to have the general emotions of desiring hurt/death?

If it's the latter, Snape is possibly channeling anger at Voldemort.

If the former, his fundamental moral character is, ummm, shot.  And 
that's where I see all the wiggle room for the character but can't 
quite buy it.

-Nora has many more thoughts, but notes that most all Moral!Snape 
ideas seem sunk





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 00:17:40 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:17:40 -0000
Subject: So how will you be reading?
In-Reply-To: <db9b24+rg5t@...>
Message-ID: <dbc834+mhki@...>

Joywitch wrote:

> > Then, we'll rush home, toss our pointy hats and the rest of our 
> > clothes to the floor and 

David sporfled:

> ...read a book.

That's right.  This is a PG-rated list.

Amy Z C





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 00:37:04 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:37:04 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers contained within
In-Reply-To: <001e01c58a58$db1d41d0$0200a8c0@hwin>
Message-ID: <dbc97g+lnoo@...>

I
S

T
H
I
S

E
N
O
U
G
H 

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E
?

As if it's necessary, being that we were the last people on earth to 
get the damn book, except a few fans in Alaska.

Shaun wrote:
 
> > Snape - what can I say. It's going to be awfully hard to keep
> > defending anything about him at this point, but I will probably try 
> > anyway. I'm still not convinced he's irredeemably evil, or even 
that 
> > he's not ultimately on the side of the angels. He took an 
unbreakable 
> > oath - to do what Draco could not do - and he fulfilled it. 

Mike wrote:
 
> Snape - hm. Jo has her man well in hand, I think. I just don't know 
what
> way he's going to jump - I'm very intrigued. You can argue it either
> way. 

When he took the unbreakable oath, and when we learned what the penalty 
for breaking one is, I thought, well, that's it:  he'll break it and 
die.  Very heroic, and the grim, brave kind of death I expected of 
Snape, even if he is a nasty slimeball.

So why didn't he?  If he was out to save Draco (with or without 
Dumbledore's blessing), surely killing Dumbledore was an empty 
gesture.  Draco failed, and there are multiple witnesses to the fact.  
Snape's completing the job might commute Draco's sentence to, I don't 
know, life in Azkaban for the entire Malfoy family, no doubt after a 
few good long rounds of Cruciatus, but clear his name?  No.  Not with 
witnesses who know that Draco lost his nerve and Snape carried out the 
murder.  So if Dumbledore and Snape discussed how to save Draco in the 
eventuality that Draco tried and failed to kill Dumbledore (which is 
very plausible), they still wouldn't have come up with this plan.

The only way I can see for Snape to still be on the side of the angels 
is for there to be a mechanism we have yet to learn about along the 
lines of "Dumbledore has to die/be betrayed for Voldemort to be 
defeated."  However, this is a creative group, and no doubt people will 
think of 50 other ways, 48 of them last-straw efforts from stubborn 
Snapelovers, but 2 of them possible.

His scene with Harry post-murder only reinforces my sense that there 
will be no more twists:  Snape is a baddie and that's that.  But it 
could be that he really did break his own heart killing Dumbledore, but 
because he (a) is a good actor and (b) genuinely hates Harry, he can't 
resist hanging around to say various nasty things.

As usual, I had the Sight of a Trelawney, but I'm pleased with my 
divination powers on two points.  One, when JKR said we should be 
asking why Voldemort survived the rebounded AK at Godric's Hollow, I 
thought, we know already:  he told us in the graveyard that he'd taken 
steps toward immortality.  Sure, we didn't know the mechanism until now 
(and a very cool mechanism it is--shades of whatsisname in Prydain who 
put his soul into a fragment of bone), but I never could understand why 
she was making a big mystery about it, and still don't.  

Two, as soon as the Half-Blood Prince turned out to be a potions 
genius, I guessed that it was Snape.  

My incorrect predictions, made before and during reading, would fill an 
encyclopedia, but you don't want to hear *them*, do you?  I was very 
pleased that the red flags about Tonks were red herrings, and wish her 
and Lupin all happiness.  Since it looks like he's never going to know 
I exist.

I don't know if I'm more sad about never seeing Dumbledore again or the 
threat that we will never return to Hogwarts.  Wah!

Amy Z C





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 00:40:59 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:40:59 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers contained within
In-Reply-To: <dbc97g+lnoo@...>
Message-ID: <dbc9er+fi76@...>

Hee!  I think I combined "last-ditch" and "clutching at straws" and 
came up with "last-straw efforts."  Make that "straw-clutching efforts."

Amy Z C





From adanabbett at adanabbett.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 01:01:00 2005
From: adanabbett at adanabbett.yahoo.invalid (Adan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:01:00 -0000
Subject: HBP: spoiler rolling balls
In-Reply-To: <dbc10m+8ls9@...>
Message-ID: <dbcakc+bp0e@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dorbandb" <dorband at u...> wrote:

Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler space
 

Jo Wrote> > Just to start the ball rolling how about
> > Regulus Alphard Black?

That was my first thought as well.  Which means it is probably 
wrong.  But, if it *was* Regulus, then did he die by deatheaters as 
was presumed? Or did he die while destroying -or attempting to 
destroy- the horcrux?  And if it was a two person job, who helped him?
Dang.  How is Harry supposed to know when the six are gone?
 
Brian wrote:
  So many issues to
> resolve...I almost can't imagine that she'll get to *everything* in
> the last book.  Here I am thinking about the next book 
already...sorry.

Me too!  I dread a two year interval.
> 
> I thought the scene where Snape AK's Dumbledore was powerfully
> written.  I readily admit to shedding several tears during the last
> hour or so of reading.  The notion that it was effectively a mercy
> killing never entered my mind.  I heard Dumbledore's "pleading" as
> just that - "Please Severus, don't let me down now..."  Of course,
> I've never thought Snape was anything close to a good guy, 
regardless
> of Dumbledore's trust.  When he entered into the unbreakable oath,
> that sealed the deal for me in terms of his trustworthiness.
> 
> More later...need time to think...and mourn.

It's going to take my deepest PR memories to figure out a spin for 
Snape now.  It may take awhile.  I don't think "deny, deny, deny" is 
going to work in this case.  I'm pretty sure that it will have to 
include that Dumbledore's statements to Draco that he knew of the 
plan all along will show he was sacrificing himself, but right now 
that's just too lame.

Time for a reread and ruminations.  And, yes, mourning.  Even if I 
did guess the death, it still hurt.

Adan
Looking forwared to seeing everything I missed pointed out to me.





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 01:29:14 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:29:14 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers contained within
In-Reply-To: <dbc97g+lnoo@...>
Message-ID: <dbcc9a+6lc8@...>

Amy Z wrote:
> I
> S
> 
> T
> H
> I
> S
> 
> E
> N
> O
> U
> G
> H 
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> ?
> 

> As usual, I had the Sight of a Trelawney, but I'm pleased with my 
> divination powers on two points.  One, when JKR said we should be 
> asking why Voldemort survived the rebounded AK at Godric's Hollow, 
I 
> thought, we know already:  he told us in the graveyard that he'd 
taken 
> steps toward immortality.  Sure, we didn't know the mechanism 
until now 
> (and a very cool mechanism it is--shades of whatsisname in Prydain 
who 
> put his soul into a fragment of bone), but I never could 
understand why 
> she was making a big mystery about it, and still don't.  

Well, I'm a little disappointed in the Horcrux thing for this very 
reason.  I don't see how we could really have figured it out from 
what we had in the previous books.  Indeed I don't know of anyone 
who did.

In fact, my whole line of reasoning was that therefore Voldemort's 
remarks about the steps he had taken must be a red herring 
(supported by the fact that in GOF he doesn't know *which* steps had 
worked, and that Dumbledore stresses that Voldemort doesn't 
understand the really important things in magic).

David





From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 01:34:11 2005
From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:34:11 -0700
Subject: Thoughts (there be SPOILERS here...)
References: <dbc9er+fi76@...>
Message-ID: <01d701c58a6f$a328f320$01fea8c0@...>

I
S

T
H
I
S

E
N
O
U
G
H

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E
?


RAB-Regulis?  Too easy?  It would be
cool though, to think he tried to turn
on Voldemort in a MAJOR way, rather
then just "oops, I want to go home to
mommy and daddy now".

My poor Peter, always the sniveling,
stepped on left behind.  I'm still
seeing some of that same spunk I saw in
GoF in him, where he wants to question
orders, wants to talk back, wants to be
himself...but simply can't.  He's cowed
by anyone slightly more forceful then
him.  Reminds me why I loved him so
much early on.  He never could stand up
for himself poor boy.  Am I the only
one who thinks he was teased in
pre-hogwarts/early hogwarts and that's
how he became friends with James and
Sirius who stood up for him at some
point?  Or maybe Remus.

Speaking of...dude...never saw that
ship coming.

And briefly on ships: I was so right.

TOM!  Oh my god there was enough Tom in
this book to make me pass out in fan
girl glee!  Left right and center!  I
feel soo, SOO sorry for his mummy
although she was a bit of a...I'm going
to use the word scrub.  She used a LOVE
POTION on TMR Sr?!  Pathetic.  The girl
could have just taken off.  Lived a
nice, comfy life but no, she had to go
and try to get the muggle next door and
screw the wizarding world for the next
fifty years.  Nice planning there, Mrs.
Voldemort's Mommy.

And yes, I still love my Tommy.  I
identify with the darker characters so
his background isn't that much of a
shock and horror type of deal.

Speaking of darker characters...

My poor Draco.  Jo did good with him
this book.  I knew there was something
under that pompous little head of his.
If only Narcissa hadn't butted her
aristocratic little nose in I think
this book would have turned out much
differently.  I have to wonder now,
what will become of him.  How soon
he'll end up dead serving a lord he
doesn't REALLY want to and who doesn't
really want him.

Harry REALLY needs to lay off the
Cruciatus.

WHY was the damn potions book IN the
book?  Who cares about the Half blood
prince and the book and the spells and
all of that?  If you cut out that
blood, re-arranged some of it, it would
have read better.  Unless it's a set up
for book seven but I don't see how or
why or anything.

Tom!

Is it just me, or was Dumbledore asking
Sev to kill him?  It could have been
him asking Snape to kill hi (thus
cementing him with the Dark Lord), or
to not break his vow (thus...cementing
him with the Dark Lord AND keeping him
around for Harry's safety and stuff) or
he could have been asking Snape to help
him but I doubt that's it, doesn't feel
right.

Anyway, my thoughts....still sleepy.



Saitaina
****
"I like kids in theory...it's the
practice I'm having trouble with."

"The new food pyramid looks as if all
you have to do to be healthy in America
is be gay and exercise."

"If you're going to sing in the shower,
don't start with a song that begins
with 'help'."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 01:43:12 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:43:12 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers contained within
In-Reply-To: <dbcc9a+6lc8@...>
Message-ID: <dbcd3g+399t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Amy Z wrote:
> > I
> > S
> > 
> > T
> > H
> > I
> > S
> > 
> > E
> > N
> > O
> > U
> > G
> > H 
> > 
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > 
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > ?
> > 
> 
> Well, I'm a little disappointed in the Horcrux thing for this very 
> reason.  I don't see how we could really have figured it out from 
> what we had in the previous books.  Indeed I don't know of anyone 
> who did.

Well, it makes really good sense out of the diary.  How it was able 
to do all the things that it did, and such--only a part of a soul 
could be that inventive.  Compare it to the Map, which has skill in 
it but not the stuff of life itself.

-Nora agrees with Amy Z about the difficulty of explaining this Big 
Event away





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 02:01:56 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:01:56 -0000
Subject: HBP: spoiler rolling balls
In-Reply-To: <dbcakc+bp0e@...>
Message-ID: <dbce6k+ghme@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Adan" <adanabbett at y...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dorbandb" <dorband at u...> 
wrote:
> 
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
Adan wrote: 
> It's going to take my deepest PR memories to figure out a spin for 
> Snape now.  It may take awhile.  I don't think "deny, deny, deny" 
is 
> going to work in this case.  I'm pretty sure that it will have to 
> include that Dumbledore's statements to Draco that he knew of the 
> plan all along will show he was sacrificing himself, but right now 
> that's just too lame.

Ginger:

Add DD's conversation with Draco indicating that DD knew the plan, 
and his overheard arguement with Snape in ch. 19, and we may have 
grounds for a DD sacrifice.

Overheard:  1)DD took too much for granted.
2)Snape didn't want to do it anyway.
3)DD reminded Snape he'd agreed to do it.  

The last one got me.  What has Snape agreed to do the DD would be so 
firm about that is too much for him?  Teaching DADA?  Not hardly.  
Spying on LV?  Nope, he's got that in hand.  No matter which side 
he's really on, he seems to have their side, including Bella, 
convinced.

So unless there's the dreaded "something we don't know about yet", 
I'm thinking that killing DD is the thing Snape is really dead set 
against doing.  When DD's protrait hung on the office wall, I was 
convinced that it was real and stopped hoping for a plot twist.  I 
only hope now that his portrait wakes up and has many interesting 
conversations with MM.  Perhaps she'll order Harry to return the next 
year.  Being able to talk to the portrait and hear more info would 
entice him.

When the phoenix flew "joyfully into the blue", I had hopes of a DD 
reincarnation, but that may just have been Harry's imagination (he 
thought he saw it).  

Interesting:  Snape keeps Draco from becoming a murderer, and 
prevents Harry from using Crucio twice.  Why?  Is he still on the 
side of good and trying to keep Harry from using an unforgivable?  Or 
has he had a bad day and really doesn't feel like adding a bit of 
torture to it?

Oh, yes, Snape fodder abounds.  One thing is for sure- no matter 
which side he's on, he's playing the part to the hilt.

Continuing with read #2,
Ginger, slightly disgruntled the her Remus/Bill ship is sunk, but 
only slightly.





From Oryomai at talia_dawn_3.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 03:54:49 2005
From: Oryomai at talia_dawn_3.yahoo.invalid (Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 03:54:49 -0000
Subject: First reading -- HPB SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <dbckq9+hbii@...>

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Okay...what it's like to be a Snapefan in the wake of that book....

Severus: He's my baby.  All right...I still think he can be good.  He 
*had* to kill Albus, and I hope that Albus stored those memories 
somewhere so Harry can see them.  I was a little surprised about him 
being the Half-Blood Prince, but it made me happy.  I do love 
Severus.  On the topic of him being a half-blood...I was surprised, 
but not at the same time.  All of the Death Eaters apparently are 
hiding what they are to be what they cannot be.  It's kinda weird.  I 
fear that my Severus is marked for death after this last encounter.  
I agree with everyone who said maybe Dumbledore was pleading with 
Severus to kill him; that's what my sister and I thought after our 
first reading.
Draco: Crying to Moaning Myrtle?!?!  WTF?!?!?  I want a 
DeliciouslyEvil!Draco.  We had him at the beginning, and I hope he'll 
come back.  I don't want this "I'm-too-scared-to-do-what-I'm-always-
threatening"!Draco.
Harry: Well...I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't 
like him.  He was better in this book, but I think that he should've 
told SOMEONE about his Potions Book.  I think I might even like him 
in the last book.
Tonks and Lupin: Um...yeah...whatever.  I'm not sure what I think yet.

The book overall was good.  I just hope that JKR lets Severus live 
and repent.  She had the best message with Severus: Nice is different 
than good.  If she ruins that, she ruins teaching children that 
lesson.  I hope she doesn't screw it up (IMO anyway lol).

Oryomai
--Who read it in three hours, forty-five minutes!





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 04:00:56 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 04:00:56 -0000
Subject: HBP:First Impressions
Message-ID: <dbcl5o+f8nr@...>

Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space

Did somebody ask for pro-Snape spin? That's easy. Didn't you
hear Hermione tell Harry there are poisons that have no antidotes?
I'd guess that applies to the stuff guarding the horklump. *

Think about it--if Voldemort's theory of immortality was wrong,
then the horklump was useless and he would have no need to 
recover it.

If, OTOH, someone else iwas trying to recover it, then
they believed the immortality spell worked, which might imply that
it had been tested. If you're immortal,  why bother about antidotes? 
Voldemort could drink the stuff and go right on living. But no one
else could. RAB (I thought of Regulus too) and someone else --who?
must have gotten the real one out and replaced the potion.

So...the stuff guarding the horklump was fatal -- Dumbledore
was already dying when Snape sent that curse at him
Doubt he would have got more than knocked over otherwise,
just as Bella was by Harry's attempt at Crucio.

Numbness creeping upward from the feet is a classic poisoning 
symptom, ask Socrates. 

Snape had to know Harry was there, he could see the other broom as 
well as anybody. Jo even gives us a big fat hint, having Scrimgeour
say that the Ministry put 'two and two together.'

One more thing.

I loved the book. Loved it -- and read it straight through in 
eight hours, so much for my resolution. Glad it was shorter than 
OOP. Glad we finally met a vampire, too. Not sure I need
part-vampire!Snape anymore, but if Tobias Snape was a Muggle
then who was the man who was bullying Snape's mum? 

Pippin
bet you a dollar Emmeline Vance isn't dead. She was spirited away
by the Order so that Snape could take credit for the ambush.

*The horklump is a favorite delicacy of gnomes but otherwise
has no discernable use --FBAWTFT





From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 04:23:30 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:23:30 +1000
Subject: SPOILERS [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP: spoiler rolling balls
In-Reply-To: <dbc10m+8ls9@...>
References: <dbb76t+2rs9@...> <dbc10m+8ls9@...>
Message-ID: <20050717042330.GA13220@...>

S
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On Sat, Jul 16, 2005 at 10:16:54PM -0000, dorbandb wrote:

> 
> Yes, Jo - That was definitely the first (only?) person I thought of. 
> But I couldn't remember where his middle name was mentioned.  Thanks
> for that.  I'm not sure what that gets us though.  Regulus is dead,
> and the horcrux that cost AD his life isn't really the horcrux at all.
>  Granted, it will take a slow-witted guy like me several readings to
> see things more clearly, but my first thought is that the real
> horcrux, that Regulus had at one point, is among the trinkets at 12GP
> - unless Diadulus Diggle has pilfered it already - unaware of it's
> significance, of course.  Since Harry now owns 12GP, he'll find that
> one easily enough.  That still leaves 3 others...

A shrewd guess. Harry should take a better look at Sirius' mirror, don't you
think? What has Kreacher hidden? And just to fan the pro-Snape flames a
little, do you think Snape has one?

I'm certain someone on the List has applied the soul-in-a-box concept to
Voldemort at some point: it's a classic bad-guy tactic, and Voldemort's
wrinkle on the theme is a good one. It didn't surprise me. Harry & Ginny
surprised me (pause for penguin retching sounds), but not his Mills&Boon
attempt to fob her off at the end, which of course is doomed.

> I thought the scene where Snape AK's Dumbledore was powerfully
> written.  I readily admit to shedding several tears during the last
> hour or so of reading.  The notion that it was effectively a mercy
> killing never entered my mind.  I heard Dumbledore's "pleading" as
> just that - "Please Severus, don't let me down now..."  Of course,
> I've never thought Snape was anything close to a good guy, regardless
> of Dumbledore's trust.  When he entered into the unbreakable oath,
> that sealed the deal for me in terms of his trustworthiness.

For Snape is BRAVE and promised to do something for DD he _didnt want to do_.
Beware of his "blank unreadable stare". Like you, I really thought ESE!Snape
was in the bag on first reading, but on second...I believe they (Snape & DD)
saw this coming. And I read Snape's parting shots to Harry in a different
light. He keeps trying to tell Harry that he must be able to close his mind
and not to signal his shots. Of the  "new" stuff in HBP, the concept of
non-verbal spells is most intriguing.

I didnt miss Percy at all.

ewe2, the little penguin that could (whatever it was).

-- 
sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me.




From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 05:11:27 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 05:11:27 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers contained within
In-Reply-To: <dbc3ul+rif6@...>
Message-ID: <dbcp9v+fctf@...>

spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
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spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
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--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike & Susan Gray" 
<aberforthsgoat at h...> 
> wrote:

> > Anyone want to keep debating about the power in the room?? Looks 
like Jo
> > decided to spell things out for us. Jo also continues to grapple 
with
> > questions about free will and destiny in the prophecy chapter. 
> >
> 
> OK. You win that one on points.
> It was the power to love, not love itself, if I understand DD 
correctly.
> 
> But something that struck me while posting elsewhere - a bit of 
symbology.
> 
> We have GG's sword, HH's cup, SS's jewel - those are three of the 
Tarot suits.
> The fourth is Wands. 
> 
> Where is RR's wand? 
> A possible clue to book 7 less than 24 hours after book 6 hits the 
streets.
> Fun, ain't it?
> 
> Kneasy

Oh its fun alright.

That wand thing, Neville got a new one, the last wand from 
Ollivander and old Ollie did a bunk/was bunked.

How *is* JKR going to get all of this into one more book?

Regards
Jo

still slightly stunned





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 06:07:51 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 06:07:51 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP: spoiler rolling balls
In-Reply-To: <20050717042330.GA13220@...>
Message-ID: <dbcsjn+20f1@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewetoo at g...> wrote:
> S
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Sean, the Little Penguin that Would (no, that's not a typo): 
> I'm certain someone on the List has applied the soul-in-a-box 
concept to
> Voldemort at some point: it's a classic bad-guy tactic, and 
Voldemort's
> wrinkle on the theme is a good one. It didn't surprise me. 

Ginger: It was Meriaugust in #132181.  She brought up the guy with 
his soul in his finger, whose name is slipping me right now, but 
sounds like Pyrite.  You know who I mean.

Our Penguin continued:
Harry & Ginny
> surprised me (pause for penguin retching sounds), but not his 
Mills&Boon
> attempt to fob her off at the end, which of course is doomed.

Ginger:  Yeah, you'd think once the guy is getting a little snogging 
action he'd convince himself that it's necessary in case he should 
ever need to cast a really big patronus.  Or something.  Plus, he 
knows Ginny better than that.  She'll be wearing her great auntie's 
veil soon enough.

And on the shipping scene: Wasn't that touching when Ron gasped out 
Hermie's name in the hospital?  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW.  
(Pauses for the Penguin to return from the toilet.)

My favourite part so far: MM giving Neville his class-taking advice.  
I was also glad to hear the Gran was proud of him.  She has a way to 
go on the tact front, but I do believe she truly loves him.

Ginger, teeheePhlegmteehee





From SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 08:43:44 2005
From: SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid (songbird3411)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:43:44 -0000
Subject: HBP- Spoilers, of course
Message-ID: <dbd5o0+u4ln@...>

S
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A
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I just finished the book about an hour ago.  I am still recovering 
from the shock of that ending.  Oh. My. God. SNAPE!

I have to chime in with those who claim all is not lost for Snape.  I 
reread that ending 5 times.  Admittedly, it looks *really bad* for 
Snape.  However, the Snapefan in me cannot quite believe it.  Snape 
evil?  Error.  Does not compute.

I, too, can see a scenario where Dumbledore and Snape worked this out 
in advance.  Some sort of last-ditch contingency plan.  I mean, as 
was pointed out earlier, Snape was violently objecting to something 
Dumbledore was asking of him.  Enough to get into a shouting match 
with Dumbledore.  Unheard of!  I can also see Dumbledore's final plea 
as a plea for Snape to kill him.  A plea for Snape to follow that 
last order of Dumbledore's.  And I am sure there is something in that 
escape scene that is significant, however my mind is still reeling 
from the shock of the scene before it.  Give me a couple days.  And 
another read.

My real problem with this line of thought is as follows:  If the 
above is true, then apparently neither Snape nor Dumbledore informed 
anyone of it.  Also, Dumbledore never told any of the other Order 
members why he trusted Snape so completely.  I am not sure this "He 
felt remorse for turning the Potters over to Voldemort" explanation 
works for me.  So, if Snape is the only one who knows the truth, then 
how will the truth ever be spread?  No one would believe Snape now.  
Who would he go to for help or explanations?  Those Order members 
would murder him on the spot. 

Moving on from this so as to give it more thought.

Interesting to see young Malfoy get some character development.  
*Loved* Dumbledore's conversation with him at the end.

There was an awful lot of Harry in this book.  Thankfully, I didn't 
find him nearly as annoying as I used to.

Shipping does nothing for me.  There was an extraordinary amount of 
it in this book.  I mean, even Lupin got shipped.  Kind of glad to 
see that one, truth be told.  Though Tonks was a surprise. 

Horcrux.  Hmmm.  I think I like it.  Though, I am somewhat surprised 
to see the concept so late in the game.  It certainly helps me 
understand the Diary incident in Chamber of Secrets, which I didn't 
really understand before.  Not sure how it fits with Voldemort's own 
ideas.  I will have to reread Goblet.  

Wow.  This certainly seems to set up a huge amount of story for the 
last book.  Some major threads left dangling here.  I need some more 
time to digest this.

Mindy- who also wonders if Dumbledore was already dying before Snape 
AK'd him.  He seemed pretty sickly, and he was asking quite 
insistently to see Snape ASAP before they went back to Hogwarts.  
Hmmmmmm.....









From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 09:22:39 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:22:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HBP First impressions - SPOILERS within!
Message-ID: <20050717092239.284.qmail@...>

I

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T

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B

O

O

K


I did.  It was seriously good.  It may even come in at second to PoA.

Just as in OoP, the last few (very cinematic?) chapters were extremely painful to read,
particularly the potion drinking scene, and the AK.    Ali and Neil are still here, and I am
having a debate with Ali about Snape.  Ali and I seem to have opposite views on this, because I am
quite ready for Snape to be guilty, and she isn't.  I just can't see why Dumbledore's death was
necessary to the fight against Voldemort.  I do need to read those chapters again immediately,
because I was reading them late last night with tears rolling down my cheeks, so the chances are I
missed a lot.  I could not bear seeing Dumbledore  so seemingly weak - it just didn't seem
possible that he could at that point be at the mercy of the DEs and Draco. 

Theories are already being posited about Dumbledore pleading with Snape to kill him, that it could
have been a mercy killing, that Dumbledore was already dying.  I have a problem with all of those,
and one of my main reasons is the use of AK.    Am I right in saying that to use AK effectively,
you really have to have the intention to murder, rather than to kill, or is this too fine a
distinction?  These unforgiveable curses like all magic work through strength of intention, and I
just thought that this had to be based in negative emotion, rather than positive.    Anyway, it is
going to make the Snape Trial at Accio very interesting....

Other first thoughts.   I think JKR is still mixing it up on the shipping front.  I can actually
buy into G/H, but R/H longterm?  Still not a chance.    I started to like Ron in OoP - sadly, he
has regressed again.  Harry, on the other hand, strikes me as gaining in maturity all the time,
and becoming a true leader, able to make painful decisions - although I don't think his
determination to stay away from Ginny is going to wash - she seems as strong willed as him.  One
major reservation - I can't believe that he performed that curse on Draco without knowing what it
was.  Majorly irresponsible - on a par with The Prank.

I loved Luna's scenes - very touched by her feeling as though the DA meetings were like having
friends, and thought her Quidditch commentary was excellent.  I love this character more and more
- emotionally aware and honest, yet sadly distanced from everything going on around her.

I liked the fact that there were few new characters this time around, but I wish other characters
had more space.  I wanted more on Sirius' death.

I cannot believe that Umbridge is still at the Ministry and had the cheek to turn up at the
funeral.

What's going on with Fawkes?

I did think quite quickly that there was going to be some significance in founders' relics, and
did guess early on that Snape would be the HBP.    I also got Regulus as well.  I have a feeling
there is another RAB somewhere around, but I can't remember where.

I want to know what happened with Percy at The Burrow.

I'm glad that JKR was unequivocal about the importance and power of love.

I'm glad, although also frustrated that we have few answers and more questions.

I'm scared about the possibility of no Hogwarts in Book 7, but think it is unlikely.

I didn't notice much adverb abuse, but I probably will later.

I need to go and reread now.

Catherine







		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 09:46:00 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:46:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HBP observation
Message-ID: <20050717094601.49984.qmail@...>

Not really a spoiler, but just in case,

here

is

some

spoiler 

space.



I am becoming more and more convinced that JK Rowling is modelling Albus Dumbledore's way of
speaking on Stephen Fry.

Catherine


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 12:11:15 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:11:15 +0200
Subject: SPOILERS [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP: spoiler rolling balls - Material for Ethics Class
In-Reply-To: <20050717042330.GA13220@...>
Message-ID: <000201c58ac8$a124c140$0200a8c0@hwin>

> S
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> 
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> 
> For Snape is BRAVE and promised to do something for DD he 
> _didnt want to do_. Beware of his "blank unreadable stare". 
> Like you, I really thought ESE!Snape was in the bag on first 
> reading, but on second...I believe they (Snape & DD) saw this 
> coming. And I read Snape's parting shots to Harry in a 
> different light. He keeps trying to tell Harry that he must 
> be able to close his mind and not to signal his shots. Of the 
>  "new" stuff in HBP, the concept of non-verbal spells is most 
> intriguing.

Exactly. And that's what makes Harry's "go ahead and kill me, you
coward" thing so painful. (Honest. It hurts like heck to read that
passage.) My take is that Snape has been definitively outed as a GOOD
GUY - and a good guy who is going through hell. He killed Dumbledore
partly because (as Pippin points out) Dumbledore was already dying -
even more to keep Draco from becoming a murderer - and finally
Dumbledore had already ordered him to do so.

I think Harry's biggest task in the next book may be finding
reconcilliation with Snape, not killing ol' Voldie.

Incidentally: I don't think she did so on purpose, but Jo has set up a
classical test case for debate about euthanasia. Said test cases usually
consist of overfilled lifeboats and shark infested waters - and aren't
usually very convincing. This is one test case I find very believable.
In essence: is it wrong to kill a dying man (a) at his own fully
cognizant order, which itself aims at (b) keeping someone else from
murdering him. (I'm not saying which way a call it, btw., and I hope to
God I'll never have to make a call like that.)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 13:01:09 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:01:09 -0000
Subject: HBP:First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbcl5o+f8nr@...>
Message-ID: <dbdkql+6co4@...>

Spoiler space
Spoiler space
More Spoiler space
Even more Spoiler space
Yet more Spoiler space
Lots of Spoiler space
Lots and lots of Spoiler space
Lots and lots and lots of Spoiler space
Wow! more Spoiler space
Is this enough Spoiler space?
Really? Are you sure?
OK
S
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S
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> Pippin wrote:
> Did somebody ask for pro-Snape spin? That's easy. Didn't you
> hear Hermione tell Harry there are poisons that have no antidotes?
> I'd guess that applies to the stuff guarding the horklump. *
> 
> Think about it--if Voldemort's theory of immortality was wrong,
> then the horklump was useless and he would have no need to 
> recover it.
> 
Pippin, could I use your post? And possibly you as a witness? I'm on 
the defense team in the Accio Snape Trial, and after joking that 
Book Six would contain a 'smoking wand' Snape event, now find that I 
was right...

Yeah, I think the orders Snape was arguing over were 'kill me rather 
than break cover'. Is Snape's mission finding the location of 
Voldemort's bits of soul? Or something else that makes it vital he 
*must* be trusted by Voldemort?

The timing of the Unbreakable Vow plus the Snape/DD argument being 
along the lines of 'don't want to do it any more' suggest Snape 
killing DD was always a possibility in the game plan. But Vowing to 
Narcissa might have given Snape an emotional realisation that he 
might really, really have to kill DD. And, to his moral credit, he 
finds he doesn't want to do it. 

Not sure it falls into 'mercy killing', myself. I'd go for 
the 'necessary in the greater plan' argument. 

Did anyone notice that the theories that the Senior Trio of DD, 
McGonagall and Snape mirror Ron, Harry and Hermione recieved a 
boost? DD is a pure blood, mirroring Ron, and Snape is a half-blood, 
mirroring Harry. McGonagall's background isn't yet known, but her 
perfect muggle costume in OOP suggests she might be muggle-born (and 
so knows what to wear) like Hermione. (Minerva is a not-uncommon 
girls' name in Scotland).

HBP was, apart from the shocks, a huge relief. After finding OOP 
very difficult to re-read, I'm finding that I'm *eager* to re-read 
HBP. Yippee!

Pip!Squeak






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 13:22:07 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:22:07 -0000
Subject: More first impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbc72v+o83a@...>
Message-ID: <dbdm1v+k12r@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
> <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > 
> > Hm.  Same first thought for R.A.B as the others. 
> > 
> > Agreed that Snape still has wiggle-room - knowing that Draco was 
> > after him, did Dumbledore discuss possible outcomes with Snape 
and 
> > consider that this offered the best overall chance of doing 
> > Voldemort in?
> 
> Here's the question I have about these events.
> 
> Bellatrix tells us that you have to mean it for Crucio to work.  
Can 
> surrogate anger/emotion be used to do an Unforgivable?  That is to 
> say, do you have to want to make *that* person hurt/dead, or is it 
> enough to have the general emotions of desiring hurt/death?
> 
> If it's the latter, Snape is possibly channeling anger at Voldemort.
> 
> If the former, his fundamental moral character is, ummm, shot.  And 
> that's where I see all the wiggle room for the character but can't 
> quite buy it.
> 
> -Nora has many more thoughts, but notes that most all Moral!Snape 
> ideas seem sunk

Well somebody has to be right about Snape...DD, Bella or Harry.  The 
spinner's end chapt had me thinking too obvious, Snape is still on 
the good side.  Then doing in DD, my thoughts changed on this.  After 
reading everyones posts I am changing again to hmmmmmm not sure.

Had to laugh at Cissy..went to summer camp and bunked with Cissy, 
Muffy and Khaki!
Fran





From saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 13:30:32 2005
From: saitaina at saitaina.yahoo.invalid (Saitaina)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 06:30:32 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP:First Impressions
References: <dbdkql+6co4@...>
Message-ID: <001a01c58ad3$b56a43e0$01fea8c0@...>

Pip!Squeak wrote:

<Spoiler space
Spoiler space
More Spoiler space
Even more Spoiler space
Yet more Spoiler space
Lots of Spoiler space
Lots and lots of Spoiler space
Lots and lots and lots of Spoiler space
Wow! more Spoiler space
Is this enough Spoiler space?
Really? Are you sure?
OK
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

Is Snape's mission finding the location
of
Voldemort's bits of soul?>

I don't think it's that, so much as
being SO trusted by Voldemort he has
the most chance of knowing at least
some of what Voldemort's up to, leaving
time and space for Harry to find the
other...soul-box/container-thingies-tha
t-have-an-odd-name-I-can't-pronounce-le
t-alone-spell.

Snape killed Dumbledore, Voldemort's
second biggest adversary, that pretty
much cements him in the "inner circle".
He would be able to hear more things,
see more things that he can relay to
Minerva that can later be relayed to
the trio on their quest so they can
know before being caught by surprise.

Pretty nice set up really.

I have no idea why Snape's the HBP
though...unless you consider the joke
factor.  Harry bitches for five books
about how Snape can't teach, then
suddenly Harry is learning FROM Snape,
via a book...but that's a diffrent
subject.

Saitaina
****
"I like kids in theory...it's the
practice I'm having trouble with."

"The new food pyramid looks as if all
you have to do to be healthy in America
is be gay and exercise."

"If you're going to sing in the shower,
don't start with a song that begins
with 'help'."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 13:36:22 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:36:22 -0000
Subject: More first impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbc72v+o83a@...>
Message-ID: <dbdmsm+qen3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
> <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > By our correspondent Phil Space
> > 
> > Hm.  Same first thought for R.A.B as the others. 
> > 
> > Agreed that Snape still has wiggle-room - knowing that Draco was 
> > after him, did Dumbledore discuss possible outcomes with Snape 
and 
> > consider that this offered the best overall chance of doing 
> > Voldemort in?
> 
> Here's the question I have about these events.
> 
> Bellatrix tells us that you have to mean it for Crucio to work.  
Can 
> surrogate anger/emotion be used to do an Unforgivable?  That is to 
> say, do you have to want to make *that* person hurt/dead, or is it 
> enough to have the general emotions of desiring hurt/death?
> 
> If it's the latter, Snape is possibly channeling anger at Voldemort.
> 
> If the former, his fundamental moral character is, ummm, shot.  And 
> that's where I see all the wiggle room for the character but can't 
> quite buy it.
> 
> -Nora has many more thoughts, but notes that most all Moral!Snape 
> ideas seem sunk

Forgot another thought on Snape....Did DD sacrifice his life for 
Harry, thus giving Harry more protection....Snape would not think 
Harry worthy...
Fran





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 13:36:42 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:36:42 -0000
Subject: HBP:First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbdkql+6co4@...>
Message-ID: <dbdmta+ft35@...>

Spoiler Space
YOU
COULD
ALL
GET
YOUR
WANDS
OUT
RIGHT
NOW
AND
POINT
THEM
AT
ME
AND
SAY
THE
WORDS,
AND
I DOUBT
I'D
GET
SO
MUCH 
AS 
A NOSEBLEED
end Spoiler space

Pip:
> > 
> Pippin, could I use your post? And possibly you as a witness? I'm
on 
> the defense team in the Accio Snape Trial, and after joking that 
> Book Six would contain a 'smoking wand' Snape event, now find that
I 
> was right...

Pippin:
I'm honored to be asked, though I may be a bit jet-lagged.
However, you've got a better witness than me, luv. 
"Harry reached out,straightened the half-moon spectacles upon
the crooked nose, and wiped a trickle of blood from the mouth 
with his own sleeve."

That trickle of blood is either the biggest Flint this side of
Everest, or our man Snape is outed. The curse didn't work. AK 
doesn't leave any sign. If it had stopped Dumbledore's heart then 
he wouldn't have bled. QED

Snape promised to carry out the deed Draco was expected to
do  "But he is determined that Draco should try first." So yeah,
he tried. And failed. 

Pippin
who realized all this about ten seconds after she logged off
yesterday 






From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 13:58:14 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:58:14 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP:First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbdmta+ft35@...>
Message-ID: <000401c58ad7$93a40990$0200a8c0@hwin>

Spoiler Space
YOU
COULD
ALL
GET
YOUR
WANDS
OUT
RIGHT
NOW
AND
POINT
THEM
AT
ME
AND
SAY
THE
WORDS,
AND
I DOUBT
I'D
GET
SO
MUCH 
AS 
A NOSEBLEED
end Spoiler space
 
> "Harry reached out,straightened the half-moon spectacles upon
> the crooked nose, and wiped a trickle of blood from the mouth 
> with his own sleeve."

Bravo!

You know, I've never been at all interested in Snape debates until now -
I sort of thought it was more a girl thing and had more to do with the
brooding sexiness of a certain actor than with narrative pertinence -
but I'm ready to come forward and repent. In fact, I'm ready to have
Aristotle add Snape to the official roster of Compelling, Tragic Heroes.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 14:01:22 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:01:22 -0000
Subject: HBP: spoiler Snape
Message-ID: <dbdobi+u8dn@...>

Spoiler space 
Spoiler space
Spoiler space 
Spoiler space
Spoiler space 
Spoiler space
Spoiler space 
Spoiler space
Spoiler space 
Spoiler space
Spoiler space 
Spoiler space
Spoiler space 
Spoiler space
Spoiler space 
Spoiler space

Spoiler space
Spoiler space
Spoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler space
Spoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler spaceSpoiler space
Spoiler space



Hi
On rereading the final Snape/Harry confrontation I noticed that 
after Harry first calls Snape a coward Snape remains sneering, not 
out of control at all. It is only after Harry tries to use the 
curses he found in Snape's potion book that Snape goes ballistic "he 
was no longer sneering or jeering: the blazing flames showed a face 
full of rage." Snape then goes on to say "you dare use my own spells 
against me, Potter? It was I who invented them I, the Half-Blood 
Prince? And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, 
would you?"

This must relate to OOP Snape's Worst Memory, surely? In that scene 
the first spell Snape uses is Sectumsempra and then James uses 
Levicorpus, how the hell did James get that spell? 

Why is it the use of these spells sends Snape over the edge do you 
think?

Regards
Jo





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 14:04:33 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:04:33 -0000
Subject: HBP-spoilers-Snape
Message-ID: <dbdohh+hicg@...>

S
N
A
P
E
I
N
T
H
E
S
U
B
L
I
N
E
DIDN'T ACTUALLY SPOIL ANYTHING, I HOPE

Just a couple random thoughts on Snape.

He was a teacher to the end.  Note how he was correcting Harry on his 
technique and demonstrating how Harry needs to use nonverbal curses 
and learn to close his mind.  Sigh.  Spoken like a dedicated 
professional.

He prevented both Harry and Draco from using Unforgivables.  I am not 
worried about his own use of the AK as far as that goes.  Surely he 
has used them before.  

Just to gloat, since it was about the only thing I correctly 
predicted:  Prince is a surname.  I said so on the other list.  Rita, 
check your family tree for Eileens.

Oh, and a non-Snape thought:  we now know what the insignificant 
thing in CoS was.  Montegue's vanishing cabinet.  Hmm.

Ginger, who was reviewing Narcissa posts a bit ago and calling 
her "Cissy" in my own head.  Made me laugh when Bella did it too.






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 14:20:59 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:20:59 -0000
Subject: HBP:First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbdkql+6co4@...>
Message-ID: <dbdpgb+t1nc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pip at e...> wrote:
> Spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> More Spoiler space
> Even more Spoiler space
> Yet more Spoiler space
> Lots of Spoiler space
> Lots and lots of Spoiler space
> Lots and lots and lots of Spoiler space
> Wow! more Spoiler space
> Is this enough Spoiler space?
> Really? Are you sure?
> OK
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> 

> Pippin, could I use your post? And possibly you as a witness? I'm 
> on the defense team in the Accio Snape Trial, and after joking that 
> Book Six would contain a 'smoking wand' Snape event, now find that 
> I was right...

So here's a question about another (so far undiscussed) Nasty Snape 
Action in HBP:

I can see the whole argument over killing Dumbledore, and see all the 
outs--although I'm lukewarm on some of them from thematic 
considerations.  My sense of irony really likes the idea of Harry, 
who is (so we are told) always wrong about Snape, being dead right 
for once.

But when Snape brags to Cissy and Bella about having ratted out on 
Emmeline Vance, is he lying or not?  Some are tempted to put 
everything he says in that chapter into the category.  She had to get 
dead somehow, though.  I know that Pippin will soon enlighten us as 
how to Lupin actually did it, of course. :)

So is this Opportunist!Snape taking credit for something he didn't 
actually do to up his cred with the women, or is this a case where he 
really did the deed?

In addition (and unrelated), the question of why Voldemort told Lily 
to stand aside is solved.  He didn't want her death for a Horcrux--he 
wanted Harry's, and she was getting in the way.  She refuses, he 
kills her and activates the protection, then tries to kill Harry *and 
make use of his death*, and things go wacky.

I...I never thought I'd be saying this, but the TOO EWWW theory is 
making a lot of sense right now.

-Nora (eww!  EWWWW!)





From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 14:28:10 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:28:10 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP:First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbdmta+ft35@...>
References: <dbdkql+6co4@...> <dbdmta+ft35@...>
Message-ID: <20050717142810.GC13220@...>

On Sun, Jul 17, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0000, pippin_999 wrote:
> Spoiler Space
> YOU
> COULD
> ALL
> GET
> YOUR
> WANDS
> OUT
> RIGHT
> NOW
> AND
> POINT
> THEM
> AT
> ME
> AND
> SAY
> THE
> WORDS,
> AND
> I DOUBT
> I'D
> GET
> SO
> MUCH 
> AS 
> A NOSEBLEED
> end Spoiler space

ewe2 raises his IceWand of Penguin TauntingTM and taunts Pip one more time!
Sure, sounds tough, but its the eek or the meek in here.

Pippin:
> I'm honored to be asked, though I may be a bit jet-lagged.
> However, you've got a better witness than me, luv. 
> "Harry reached out,straightened the half-moon spectacles upon
> the crooked nose, and wiped a trickle of blood from the mouth 
> with his own sleeve."
> 
> That trickle of blood is either the biggest Flint this side of
> Everest, or our man Snape is outed. The curse didn't work. AK 
> doesn't leave any sign. If it had stopped Dumbledore's heart then 
> he wouldn't have bled. QED
 
Well spotted. I'm no Snapelover but the evidence is interesting; Harry is not
thinking very clearly as usual.

> Snape promised to carry out the deed Draco was expected to
> do  "But he is determined that Draco should try first." So yeah,
> he tried. And failed. 

Yes, Snape is a bit of a lawyer is he not? And a quick thinker...

I've had another hard look at the DD-Snape argument pp379-380 Bloomsbury
edition. On the face of it, it looks good for Snape but there are a few weensy
problems with it:

1. It's reported by Hagrid. Not the best of witnesses. He has no idea of the
context of the "discussion", and we've seen how he tends to report his
assumptions rather than the straight facts.

2. My suspicious mind wonders what DD and Snape happened to be doing by the
Forest. Not staging an argument for Hagrid to hear and tell Harry, surely.

3. Assuming 2 is wrong, and 1. doesn't totally destroy Hagrid's credibility,
we still can't be sure exactly what Snape agreed to do. The bit about
investigating Slytherin is odd. Surely DD told Snape he suspected Draco. What
would Snape have to investigate? And why does the tone sound wrong? I'd have
imagined a rather more stormy scene than a "heated argument" over whether one
wanted to go ahead with killing the other.

Non-verbal spells are a real spanner in the works. I would reevaluate canon in
light of it. Snape is not merely a master of these, he's some kind of prodigy
if James was using his own inventions on him. His potionbook falling into Harry's
hands is an odd turn of fortune, no? Again and again we are shown the power of
an accomplished Legilimens and Occlumens. Was DD's power greater than Snapes?
Were either or both equally accomplished in reading and hiding thoughts?

The other problem non-verbal spells raise is why a whole bunch of Death-Eaters
didn't use them in the Ministry of Magic, for just one example. Why Voldemort
didn't see the value in them in the graveyard in GoF. Then there's the
Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. You get the idea. MAGIC DISHWASHER, where art
thou?

ewe2, practicing levitation of fish with his beak shut.

-- 
sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me.




From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 14:34:23 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:34:23 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
Message-ID: <dbdq9f+gmbc@...>

s


p

o

i

l

e

r

s

p

a

c

e
Does anyone think the Amelia, Evangeline, Florean and Olivander death 
or missing has anything to do with the 4 remaining pieces of LV's 
soul?
Fran







From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 14:37:55 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:37:55 -0000
Subject: HBP First impressions - SPOILERS within!
In-Reply-To: <20050717092239.284.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbdqg3+3svu@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman 
<catorman at y...> wrote:
> I
> 
> L
> 
> O
> 
> V
> 
> E
> 
> D
> 
> T
> 
> H
> 
> I
> 
> S
> 
> B
> 
> O
> 
> O
> 
> K

Me too!  

> It may even come in at second to PoA.

Yep.  In time, this one may even be #1 for me.  We'll see.  I did see 
egregious adverb abuse.  "Quellingly"?  It's pleasingly like 
something out of an Edward Gorey alphabet, but as a substitute for 
SHOWING Dumbledore speaking in a quelling manner, it's pathetic.  I 
also found her writing a bit stilted for the first few chapters.  
Part of this was oddness of the setting; like Joy, I started to read 
the leaked first chapter, and though I stopped too soon to really 
analyze it, I seriously thought it was a fake.  On the proper reading 
I realized it was full of her humor and it was just the disjunction 
of reading about the Muggle world that threw me (I had the same 
experience with the start of GF).  But I still thought there was a 
lot of writing that needed another polishing or three.  She is at her 
worst when giving backstory, though it was much more gracefully done 
than in GF or OP (I'll never forgive her or her editors for "tall and 
balding, Mr. Weasley moved toward Uncle Vernon" or some such atrocity 
at the beginning of GF).

Also, what is with the colons followed by capital letters?  Editors, 
how could you not know:  the first word after a colon is not 
routinely capitalized.  
 
> Just as in OoP, the last few (very cinematic?) chapters were 
extremely painful to read,
> particularly the potion drinking scene

Oh man, wasn't it?

> Theories are already being posited about Dumbledore pleading with 
Snape to kill him, that it could
> have been a mercy killing, that Dumbledore was already dying.  

A major flaw in these theories is that Dumbledore struggled so hard 
to get to the castle and specifically to get to Snape.  All of that 
just to be killed?  Why not just say to Harry, "I'm sorry, I'm dying, 
I can't hold on any longer," and perform a suicidal curse on the spot 
(you know they must exist)?  He needs Severus, he keeps saying.  So 
there is something to be done that only Snape can do.  That could be 
killing him, not healing him as we're led to expect, but that brings 
me to the second big flaw:

The Freezing Charm he put on Harry, forcing him to stay and witness 
the event when he had specifically told him to go get Snape.  What 
was that all about?  I hope it has a reason and wasn't just a very 
feeble plot device by which JKR kept her "narrator" on the scene.  It 
makes it mighty hard to believe that Dumbledore was about to offer 
himself up as a sacrifice.  And if he was, and Snape was the one who 
had to be the high priest, then why freeze Harry rather than letting 
him do what he told him to do?  Why increase the risk that Draco will 
be the one to kill Dumbledore?

OTOH, its weirdness could be the key.  Maybe it's important to 
Dumbledore's plans that someone aligned with the Order sees what 
happens.  It still seems incredibly cruel to Harry, and I can't 
believe even the exasperatingly tight-lipped Dumbledore wouldn't have 
warned him about it:  not just "obey my orders even if I tell you to 
leave me in mortal danger," but "you may see Professor Snape do 
something unthinkable--trust him."  Snape and Harry are now the 
deadliest of enemies.  How is this part of a plan?  I'm open to it, 
since JKR is fiendishly inventive, but I'm having a lot of trouble 
imagining a scenario in which it makes sense.

> R/H longterm?  Still not a chance.

Dream on, dreamers.  Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Ron, they 
just won't say it to each other, and Harry's increasing 
responsibility and isolation isn't helping:  they probably have the 
same reservation that Harry does, that he will be left out just when 
he really needs them, or that the trio will be knocked fatally out of 
balance.

I thought JKR was needlessly explanatory about Ginny--she always 
liked Harry, she couldn't be herself around him, yada yada.  I 
thought, oh for crying out loud, she was a little giggly 10-year-old 
when they first met (though not stupid, and with plenty of spunk and 
spark) and she grew up, that's all.  Instead we get this thing about 
how she's held a torch for him all that time.  Unnecessary, though 
possible, and sounds like JKR's been reading HPfGU anti-Ginny 
tracts.  

It was predictable that he'd break up with Ginny and is a measure of 
the seriousness of his feelings, but oh, Harry, puhleeze.  Voldemort 
already has plenty of people to torture in order to get at you (think 
he doesn't know about Hermione?  Ron?  Hagrid?  Lupin?  Arthur and 
Molly?), not to mention that you're is noble enough that you'd go 
into a trap to rescue *anyone,* not just someone you love.  Gather ye 
rosebuds while ye may.  But if you must do the noble thing, come back 
safe and be with Ginny at the end of the next book.  She's one 
terrific young woman.

>    I started to like Ron in OoP - sadly, he
> has regressed again. 

You think?  I think he's improving greatly.  I was very touched by 
his holding Hermione and stroking her hair after the funeral.  In the 
context it's shippy, of course, but also just seemed like a very 
brotherly, mature moment.  All the more mature given the sexual 
tension between them, in fact; instead of creating distance, as one 
might well do if the object of one's affections needed a tender hug, 
he's there sharing grief and care with her.  Aw, now I'm getting all 
teary again.  That chapter was like going to the funeral of a friend, 
and when Hagrid carried Dumbledore's body down the aisle I lost it.

Back to Our Heroes' character development:  a very painful thing 
about OP was that Harry was such a jerk.  I *liked* it that he was; I 
thought it was realistic that he would get very angry and whiny about 
the injustice of his lot.  It made him much more complex than if he'd 
been the good little stoic all the way through all seven books.  But 
it was still hard to read.  This time, I agree, Harry has truly come 
into his own.  I loved the scenes where he held the line with someone-
-Ron with the Quidditch team, Scrimgeour--and that he did it with 
such calm and confidence.

His logic still goes out the window where old enemies are concerned.  
He was right that Draco sent the necklace, but his reasoning was way 
off.  Ditto on his reasoning re: Snape.  He forces the facts to fit 
his prejudices and it's going to keep causing him serious trouble if 
he doesn't watch out.

> One
> major reservation - I can't believe that he performed that curse on 
Draco without knowing what it
> was.  Majorly irresponsible - on a par with The Prank.

Yes, though I was grateful how horrified he was and touched by his 
instantly kneeling at Draco's side.  When we saw the spell, I applied 
my scrap Latin and confidently theorized that it was "sect" as 
in "sectarian"--that it caused one's enemies to fall out and mistrust 
each other.  I forgot that the root is more basic than that:  it 
means "cut," as in dissect.  Shudder.

Let's be clear on one thing:  Draco was about to hit him with the 
Cruciatus.  This is no excuse (ever hear of Disarming Charms, Harry?) 
but gives a window into why Harry would just grab desperately at the 
spell that was on his mind.

> What's going on with Fawkes?

Other than that his departure is supposed to make us wail and cry?  
It worked on me.

>  I also got Regulus as well.  

I had to go to the Lexicon and look up RBs.  There are others (not to 
mention B families like the Bones that could have an R in them), but 
Regulus is definitely the top candidate, especially since it's mostly 
followers who call V the Dark Lord.  Shame on Hermione for not 
finding him in the library, but then, he died young.  Bet Harry 
and/or Hermione figure it out when standing in front of the Black 
family tapestry.  Where is everyone getting Regulus's middle name 
from?

> I'm glad that JKR was unequivocal about the importance and power of 
love.

I laughed out loud when Harry wanted to respond, "Big deal."  I just 
couldn't blame him--anyone facing Voldemort would want a VERY BIG 
GUN, not love.  But D stands firm, and says what a lot of people on 
HPfGU have said over the years:  it is remarkable, given Harry's 
background, that he does know how to love (and be loved).  

I also loved the bit about how tyrants create their enemies.
 
> I'm scared about the possibility of no Hogwarts in Book 7, but 
think it is unlikely.

I think it is overwhelmingly likely, and I repeat:  Waaaaah!  I wanna 
go back to Hogwarts!  Please, Jo, at least let us walk the corridors 
one last time and say goodbye to Peeves and the laughing suits of 
armor and the moving paintings and the ceiling of the Great Hall and 
the Gryffindor dormitory . . . please!

In other Classics of British Juvenile Fiction news, the Charlie and 
the Chocolate Factory movie is fabulous even if it does take 
liberties.

Amy Z C

---------------------------------------------------------------
not ready to find a funny quote from HBP, though there are some





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 14:53:00 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:53:00 -0000
Subject: HBP First impressions - SPOILERS within!
In-Reply-To: <dbdqg3+3svu@...>
Message-ID: <dbdrcc+o8fs@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> 
wrote:
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler SpaceSpoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space


Where is everyone getting Regulus's middle name
from> 
> 


oops my bad, the middle name is his uncle's, a suggestion not a fact.

Sorry
Jo





From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 14:54:56 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:54:56 -0000
Subject: HBP:First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <20050717142810.GC13220@...>
Message-ID: <dbdrg0+cacs@...>

Spoiler space
More Spoiler space
Even more Spoiler space
Lots of Spoiler space
Lots and lots of Spoiler space
Ever so much Spoiler space

> ewe2 raises his IceWand of Penguin TauntingTM and taunts Pip one 
more time!
> Sure, sounds tough, but its the eek or the meek in here.
> 

And Pip replies:
Can we not shut up about that bloody dishwasher? At least for a 
little while :-) One of the reasons I stopped writing on the other 
list was that I couldn't suggest any theory whatsoever without 
someone demanding to know how it fitted into that blasted domestic 
appliance...




> The other problem non-verbal spells raise is why a whole bunch of 
> Death-Eaters didn't use them in the Ministry of Magic, for just 
> one example. Why Voldemort didn't see the value in them in the 
> graveyard in GoF. Then there's the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. 
> You get the idea. MAGIC DISHWASHER, where art thou?
> 
> ewe2, practicing levitation of fish with his beak shut.

Snape uses non-verbal spells in the Shack. Ropes shoot out of his 
wand and tie up Lupin and later he clicks his fingers, and the ropes 
fly to his hand. JKR disguises the non-verbal nature with sound 
effects, but she ain't cheating in HBP. We've seen non-verbal spells 
before.

But despite my profound desire not to discuss kitchen appliances 
until I've had some chance to really absorb HBP, there was one line 
which had me laughing so hard I nearly fell off the sofa (ask Ali 
and Catherine).

So - my new tag line

Pip!Squeak

"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 15:02:13 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:02:13 -0000
Subject: HBP spoilers: further first impressions
Message-ID: <dbdrtl+7ihv@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
 
S
P
A
C
E

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
 
S
P
A
C
E


So what did I think?
I'll admit that I thought Draco had got hold of the magic mirrors 
that Sirius and Harry had (through Mundungus somehow), was trying to 
get them fixed, so that Voldy could open the chamber of secrets 
again without actually being in the school.  I thought the necklace 
and poisoned mead was a red herring sub-plot to do with Slughorn (? 
la Bagman).

But, right from chapter 2 I thought "This is a set up to make us 
think Snape's the bad guy *again*. And I still think that: it's as 
clear as day.  We're talking OscarWinning-DoubleAgent-PotionsGenius 
*and* Voldy'sFavourite!Snape.  What a haul! (Of course, I didn't 
believe any of them on Friday.)

Voldemort was calling all the shots, DD knew he needed to figure out 
the "how to kill Voldy" question before he went, knowing that Harry 
would have to be the one to do it.  I'm still not quite certain if 
Voldy really did tell Snape about the plan, or whether Snape was 
bluffing to Bella and Cissy before he guessed that Draco was to bump 
off DD.  I suspect it doesn't really matter.  

"He intends me to do it in the end, I think.  But he is determined 
that Draco should try first.  You see, in the unlikely event that 
Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little 
longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy." (Chapter 2)

The plan, from Voldy's point of view was not to find out whether 
Draco was going to have the makings of a good DE (even the DEs 
expect Draco to fail) it was to test *Snape's* loyalty.  That's why 
JKR liked the title so much, because make no mistake, this book was 
*all* about Snape. I'm rather heartened by it. The book in which she 
kills off the 'epitome of goodness' is named for the 'deeply 
horrible person' whom she hesitates to say that she loves. Good good.

Aberforth's Goat wrote:
My take is that Snape has been definitively outed as a GOOD
GUY - and a good guy who is going through hell. He killed Dumbledore
partly because (as Pippin points out) Dumbledore was already dying -
even more to keep Draco from becoming a murderer - and finally
Dumbledore had already ordered him to do so.

Dungrollin:
I absolutely agree with the "good guy going through hell", but I 
don't think DD sacrificed himself for Malfoy, I think he sacrificed 
himself for Snape, and ultimately for Harry. Snape clearly had 
absolutely no choice when it came to the unbreakable vow thingy 
(which I found a bit... you know... Fanfic, frankly), if he hadn't 
accepted on the spot, then his spying on the DEs would have been at 
an end (I suspect he suspected that Voldy had set up Narcissa to 
suggest it).  Snape told DD about it all.  DD knew then that if he 
died at the hand of anyone but Draco, Snape would also die.  DD 
tried to make the best of it, and directed Snape to do everything he 
could to make sure that it was *Snape* who killed DD rather than 
Draco, because Draco is still saveable. 

DD had a fair suspicion that Voldy would have protected the 
horcruxes with something deadly, and knows that he's dying as he and 
Harry return to Hogwarts.  Harry must get Snape.  Why? So that Snape 
can whip up an antidote to something DD knows is fatal? Or so that 
Snape can Kill DD himself before he dies of the poison, thus saving 
Snape's life. Ugh, is that another life debt Snape can't repay?

If Snape's been "on the wagon" as far as Dark Arts are concerned, I 
understand exactly why he didn't want to do it, and argued about it 
with DD. Are we going to see a 'relapse' as he so delicately puts it?
I am, however amused to note that the "Avada Kedavra" which killed 
DD is the *only* time we have ever seen the adult Snape use an 
unforgiveable.

Mindy (songbird) wrote:
I am not sure this "He felt remorse for turning the Potters over to 
Voldemort" explanation works for me. So, if Snape is the only one 
who knows the truth, then how will the truth ever be spread?

Dungrollin:
It's got to be the big finale. Snape will be at the final showdown 
(and possibly Pettigrew, who may also have been in on it with DD and 
Snape from the beginning - where's the MDDT?), Snape will explain 
all of the above, and have to convince Harry to trust him.  The only 
way will be to reveal to Harry whatever it was he revealed to DD.


I must admit to a very faint feeling of disappointment round about 
two thirds of the way through.  
I think I was hoping to be surprised by something that nobody had 
thought of, but it was all a bit ... straightforward, wasn't it?  
Voldy's soul in a box, tick (all right, Voldy's soul in *seven* 
boxes, no tick, but given that we knew nothing of Horsecrutches 
beforehand there was no way it could have been guessed), Draco 
joined the DEs (big surprise), Draco went back to Borgin and Burke's 
(thought so), DD died (nobody suspected that!), Snape becomes DADA 
teacher and someone new gets Potions so Harry can be an auror 
(almost all thought it was at least possible). 

Pleased that Regulus got his own back before copping it, annoyed 
that there was no mention of the secret whatsit under the Malfoys' 
drawing room. 
Pleased at Voldy's new serial killer overtones (trophies, 
significant deaths etc), annoyed that Snape chose such a ridiculous 
title.
Pleased that the shipping was funny (and convincing ? took me right 
back to how awful it was being a teenager, though still have no 
desire to debate it), annoyed that Snape was much less enjoyable 
than usual (for obvious set-up reasons).
Pleased that for once Harry's immediate hunch that Malfoy is 
involved was correct, annoyed that there wasn't a bigger surprise.
Pleased that chapter 1 was not what anyone expected (though forgot 
and only remembered I was meant to bear in mind how many times she's 
re-written it by about chapter 20), annoyed that the leaks before 
publication made DD's death feel a bit obvious.


Questions arising:
1. Why did Voldy want Snape teaching DADA at Hogwarts? Why was 
Potions not good enough?
2. Did Voldy really tell Snape about the plan? Or is Snape Sherlock!
Snape too?
3. Bella really is bonkers, isn't she?
4. Are we being set up for an entire Malfoy family conversion? 
5. Who's going to do the whole explication thing at the end of book 
seven? (Snape Snape Snape)
6. Are we ever going to see Fawkes again? 
7. One of the Hoarcrumbles ought to be in the Chamber of Secrets, 
oughtn't it?
8. How is Snape going to save Draco (and thus himself ? that 
unbreakable vow was awfully wide-ranging) without alienating Voldy?
9. Is it a double-double bluff? Is Snape a potential dark lord 
himself, and out to get rid of DD, Voldy *and* Harry? (Can't 
remember the acronym offhand.)
10. Was there any significance to Buck- I mean Witherwing's attack 
on Snape at the end?

Some fantastic laugh out loud moments. Mollywobbles, for one.

Dungrollin






From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 16:24:57 2005
From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (Debbie)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:24:57 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - Another set of 1st Impressions
Message-ID: <dbe0op+jl2u@...>

Just a few thoughts, before I dive into a reread.  I'm way behind 
everyone as always (had to read in snatches yesterday in between 
other commitments), and I drafted this before reading everyone 
else's first thoughts, then tried to adjust to deal with things that 
have already been said.

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E

S P O I L E R   S P A C E


I liked this book *so* much better than OOP, and found the ending 
full of fascinating things to speculate about, more than enough to 
keep us busy until Book 7 comes out.   I loved the prevailing theme 
of potions (and note how well it dovetails with the sixth obstacle 
to the Stone in PS/SS).  I did find some of the going-to-class and 
who-got-how-many-O.W.L.s a little tedious, so I am intrigued by the 
possibility that Harry will skip Hogwarts in Book 7.  

Almost all my predictions were wrong (probably mercifully so).  
Except for Draco, who not only joined the DEs but also vindicated 
what I wrote 3 years ago that his cowardice would be the key to his 
redemption.  This book also showed him to be capable of smart and 
resourceful ideas (I loved the reappearance of the Vanishing 
Cabinet) as well as foolishly amateur at times. 

Dumbledore's death - to me, this was all about Dumbledore saving 
Draco from certain death at Voldemort's hand and not about killing 
Dumbledore.  That whole conversation with Draco was a delaying 
tactic until Snape arrived to fulfill his vow; Dumbledore knew Draco 
couldn't finish him off.  And this is exactly the sort of thing that 
Dumbledore does all the time - he let Draco sample the DE path, and 
now Draco will get a second chance he would not have otherwise had 
if Dumbledore had not died.  I don't think it tells us anything 
about Snape at all.   

As for Snape's motivation and loyalty, I didn't believe even as I 
read the book that Snape could be working for Voldemort, thought 
everyone's astonishment about Snape's supposed betrayal was 
misdirection.  Though I suspect he serves the side of the Good only 
to the extent that their aims comport with his own desire to avenge 
everyone who has ever wronged him.  As Harry says to 
Dumbledore, "Haven't you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape 
hates tend to end up dead?"  I think we may discover in the end that 
the only master Snape truly serves is himself.    

R.A.B. - I decided it was Regulus before turning to the next page of 
the book.  And I think we have already seen the real locket at 12 
Grimmauld Place.  From OOP ch. 6:  

"He threw the box aside into the sack where they were depositing the 
debris from the cabinets. . . . There was a musical box that emitted 
a faintly sinister tinkling sound when wound, and they all found 
themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the 
sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket that none of them 
could open . . . . Several times, Kreacher sidled into the room and 
attempted to smuggle things away under his loincloth, muttering 
horrible curses every time they caught him at it."  

My first thought was that that particular Horcrux was part of the 
stash that Mundungus sold off, but I now believe that Kreacher may 
still have it hidden in his cubbyhole, that he has or will deliver 
it to Narcissa, and that Draco may be involved in its destruction.  

Whoever suggested Harry as Horcrux (really just another name for the 
Stoned!Harry theory) hit the nail right on the head, I think.  I may 
have to go order John Granger's books after all this time.  And I 
had written here that Neville had bought her wand just before 
Ollivander's disappearance, but I see that Jo has beaten me to it. 

And finally, who spilled their Love Potion all over my brand new 
book!? <g>  I thought there was a little too much emphasis on Who 
Likes Whom (and way too much snogging in the Gryffindor Common 
Room), but overall it was a nice counterpoint to the Merope/Tom Sr 
backstory.      

Debbie
who will start the rereading immediately and this time will be 
taking notes





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 16:51:04 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:51:04 -0000
Subject: HBP First impressions - SPOILERS within!
In-Reply-To: <dbdqg3+3svu@...>
Message-ID: <dbe29o+9ka2@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman 
> <catorman at y...> wrote:
> > I
> > 
> > L
> > 
> > O
> > 
> > V
> > 
> > E
> > 
> > D
> > 
> > T
> > 
> > H
> > 
> > I
> > 
> > S
> > 
> > B
> > 
> > O
> > 
> > O
> > 
> > K
> 
>  
> > Just as in OoP, the last few (very cinematic?) chapters were 
> extremely painful to read,
> > particularly the potion drinking scene
> 
> Oh man, wasn't it?
> 
> > Theories are already being posited about Dumbledore pleading with 
> Snape to kill him, that it could
> > have been a mercy killing, that Dumbledore was already dying.  
> 
> A major flaw in these theories is that Dumbledore struggled so hard 
> to get to the castle and specifically to get to Snape.  All of that 
> just to be killed?  Why not just say to Harry, "I'm sorry, I'm 
dying, 
> I can't hold on any longer," and perform a suicidal curse on the 
spot 
> (you know they must exist)?  He needs Severus, he keeps saying.  So 
> there is something to be done that only Snape can do.  That could 
be 
> killing him, not healing him as we're led to expect, but that 
brings 
> me to the second big flaw:
> 
> The Freezing Charm he put on Harry, forcing him to stay and witness 
> the event when he had specifically told him to go get Snape.  What 
> was that all about?  I hope it has a reason and wasn't just a very 
> feeble plot device by which JKR kept her "narrator" on the scene.  
It 
> makes it mighty hard to believe that Dumbledore was about to offer 
> himself up as a sacrifice.  And if he was, and Snape was the one 
who 
> had to be the high priest, then why freeze Harry rather than 
letting 
> him do what he told him to do?  Why increase the risk that Draco 
will 
> be the one to kill Dumbledore?

I see this as DD making the sacrifice to add protection to Harry as 
Lily did. If DD did not freeze Harry, Harry may hve gone off to help 
in the castle.  Harry had to be present for the protection to work...

Also will be very sad if Hogwarts is no more. 
So is Sluggy the "good" Slytherin?  Was Blaise Zambini thrown in for 
us?

Regards,
Fran





From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 16:56:59 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:56:59 +0100
Subject: It's official...
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050717174222.009907d0@...>

I'm watching the much-touted "only TV interview"  JKR's giving anyone this 
time around, on ITV here in the UK. Of course, there'll be full transcripts 
in due course, but in the meantime, for those who can't wait, a few quotes 
as I watch (I'm not recording it).

"Pettigrew's silver hand does NOT finish off Lupin." (paraphrase) 
(congratulated Owen, the interviewer, on making the connection, though.)
"I love the theories on the internet". "Bits of the final book have been 
guessed."
"Ron is a boy who definitely would swear, but my editors won't let me write 
it."
"The Hogwarts graveyard is a fandom invention" (paraphrase).
"I won't start properly writing Book Seven until the end of this year."

And from the "cub reporters" session:
"Those who've read HBP know the answer to the question at the Book Festival 
about why Voldemort survived".

It's over, and so is this message! Back to writing up my first post about 
HBP...





From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:08:47 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:08:47 -0000
Subject: HBP impressions, spoilers, and a tantrum
Message-ID: <dbe3av+9bb8@...>

alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk

First, my tantrum:

I am SO MAD at JKR for killing Dumbledore.  I knew from the start 
that Dumbledore would eventually have to die, but I was sure it 
wouldn't happen until book 7.  It's not fair to Harry -- it's too 
soon after Sirius' death, there's still too much for Harry to learn 
from him, it's too painful, it's TOO AWFUL.  ::sobs::

And I hate Snape for killing him.  I don't care if it does turn out 
to be true that he did it under Dumbledore's orders or it's all part 
of some grand plan or Dumbledore was dying anyway because of the 
magical blech he drank I don't care I don't care I HATE SNAPE ANYWAY 
he's always been a greasy sadistic ugly bullying unprofessional 
slimeball.

::stomps foot on floor::

</tantrum>

OK, I have a lot of thoughts (well, duh) about this book, but right 
now I'd like to throw out a bunch of question/thoughts that seem to 
me to be the most important:

1.  Why did Dumbledore freeze Harry?  Obviously, he was protecting 
Harry, but why freeze him, as opposed to a magical barrier or 
something?  Why a spell that meant that Harry could watch, but not 
act?

2.  What is the "iron-clad" proof that Dumbledore had of Snape's 
loyalty?  WHAT WHAT WHAT?  It's obviously something more significant 
than Snape expressing remorse or Dumbledore's wanting to think the 
best of everyone.  Did Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore?  
If so, who was the Bonder?

3. Dumbledore's statement that prophecies do NOT have to be fulfilled 
seem very significant to me.  Previously, I had assumed that 
prophecies were a little slice of the future -- so that nothing could 
prevent them coming true, but apparently that's not so.  Interesting.

4. How come a woman as creative as JKR, who has invented words 
like "pensieve" and "occlumency" and names like "St. Mungos" 
and "Mafalda Hopkirk," could not come up with a better word for the 
magical objects that contain a piece of a murderer's soul 
than "horcrux?"  Horcrux?  The book's only been out for 2 days and 
there are already at least 5 or 10 parodies of it on this list alone.

5. I think the real reason Dumbledore never let Snape have the DADA 
job before is because, as we learned in HBP, it's been jinxed for the 
last 40 or so years, and Dumbledore needed to keep Snape around 
Hogwarts for longer than a year.  I always thought that the 
explanation that Dumbledore didn't want Snape to be "tempted by the 
Dark Arts" did not make sense (unless Snape is enrolled in some sort 
of 12 step program for recovering Dark Wizards with very strict 
rules).  Snape is obviously a powerful wizard; if he wants to 
experiment with the Dark Arts he could do it in the Potions Dungeon 
as easily as in the DADA classroom.  Note that this theory, if true, 
implies that Dumbledore knows when he hires Slughorn SNAPE WILL ONLY 
BE AROUND HOGWARTS FOR ONE MORE YEAR.  Hmmm.

6.  Does Snape making the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa even make 
sense in terms of saving her little Drakums?  Won't Voldy kill Draco 
anyway, when he finds out (there were witnesses, remember) that Draco 
couldn't/didn't kill Dumbledore and that Snape had to do it for him?

7.  Just how many wizards and witches are there floating around who 
can cast spells without saying them out loud?  Is it an uncommon 
skill that only the most powerful can manage?  It seems to be a NEWT-
level skill, but it would be interesting to know a little more about 
it.

That's all for now.

--Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, who thinks that the Accio committee should 
cancel the Snape trial, hang him in effigy (or, preferably, in 
actuality), and hold a memorial service for Dumbledore instead





From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:13:29 2005
From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:13:29 -0000
Subject: AAACK!  i've got a defective book!!!
Message-ID: <dbe3jp+ck9u@...>

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
My stupid book goes to page 532, skips to page 567 and goes all the way 
to page 593, and then goes back to page 567 again.  Pages 533-566 are 
missing.  Damn damn damn damn damn!!!!!
I gotta go return it today...






From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:28:52 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:28:52 -0000
Subject: HBP:First Impressions, esp about blood
In-Reply-To: <dbdmta+ft35@...>
Message-ID: <dbe4gk+625f@...>

V. funny spoiler space copyright Aberforth's Goat
YOU
COULD
ALL
GET
YOUR
WANDS
OUT
RIGHT
NOW
AND
POINT
THEM
AT
ME
AND
SAY
THE
WORDS,
AND
I DOUBT
I'D
GET
SO
MUCH
AS
A NOSEBLEED
end Spoiler space

Pippin wrote:

> That trickle of blood is either the biggest Flint this side of
> Everest, or our man Snape is outed. The curse didn't work. AK 
> doesn't leave any sign. If it had stopped Dumbledore's heart then 
> he wouldn't have bled. QED

I had the same thought but I think we're both wrong.  If you have a 
fatal heart attack and immediately fall off a tower, I think blood 
will come out of your mouth or nose.  Is there a forensic physician 
in the house?

And if it's a Flint, or is supposed to signify that Dumbledore was 
alive until he hit the ground, how does that out Snape?  So Snape 
killed him by throwing him off the Astronomy Tower instead of with an 
AK.  Dead is dead and Snape killed him.

Or wait, it wasn't blood, Dumbledore didn't die either before or 
after falling, he slowed his fall (pace Prisoner of Azkaban), 
released Harry from the Freezing Charm, cut his lip with his silver 
knife, told Hagrid (who can't keep a secret to save his life) to 
carry a fake body to the pyre, and ran off to pursue Horhouse Number 
4.

. . . And I think I'm suffering from terminal wishful thinking.  
Dumbledore's dead, the phoenix Harry saw rising from his pyre is his 
soul, and we will never hear from him again except in the Pensieve, 
where I hope to heaven he left some clues about what in sam hill is 
going on.

Amy Z C

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"One simple incantation and you will enter a top-quality, highly 
realistic, thirty-minute daydream, easy to fit into the average 
school lesson and virtually undetectable (side effects include vacant 
expression and minor drooling)."       --HP and the Half-Blood Prince





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:30:00 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:30:00 -0000
Subject: HBP spoilers: further first impressions
In-Reply-To: <dbdrtl+7ihv@...>
Message-ID: <dbe4io+ans9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" 
<spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>  
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>  
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 

> 
> Questions arising:
> 1. Why did Voldy want Snape teaching DADA at Hogwarts? Why was 
> Potions not good enough?
> 2. Did Voldy really tell Snape about the plan? Or is Snape Sherlock!
> Snape too?
> 3. Bella really is bonkers, isn't she? 
Yes, but oddly enough she cares about her sister or so it seems

> 4. Are we being set up for an entire Malfoy family conversion? 
Cissy seems to love her son and husband....sounds like something from 
Jerry Springer....DE's who love....

> 5. Who's going to do the whole explication thing at the end of book 
> seven? (Snape Snape Snape)
> 6. Are we ever going to see Fawkes again? 
 going back to COS and the help comes to those who ask for it thing, 
maybe he will show up to help Harry

> 7. One of the Hoarcrumbles ought to be in the Chamber of Secrets, 
> oughtn't it?
Too obvious maybe.....

> 8. How is Snape going to save Draco (and thus himself ? that 
> unbreakable vow was awfully wide-ranging) without alienating Voldy?
I wondered about that as well.....Did Snape and Draco go back to LV?

> 9. Is it a double-double bluff? Is Snape a potential dark lord 
> himself, and out to get rid of DD, Voldy *and* Harry? (Can't 
> remember the acronym offhand.)
> 10. Was there any significance to Buck- I mean Witherwing's attack 
> on Snape at the end?
> 
> Some fantastic laugh out loud moments. Mollywobbles, for one.

I thought Bella calling after "Cissy", and Phlegm were pretty funny 
too.

Other questions:
Why did the new MOM keep hounding Harry for info? 
Next stop, GH?
Why Florean Fortiscue? Double scoops of Anti-LV icream.... 

Fran






From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:34:49 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:34:49 -0000
Subject: HBP: More first thoughts
Message-ID: <dbe4rp+369g@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E

I've stolen a few moments on Catherine's PC to post some random 
thoughts about HBP...

Firstly, I would much rather HBP had started with "Spinner's End", 
and worked in Scrimgeour's entrance later on, than with the out-of-
place "The Other Minister".  Perhaps it'll grow on me.

I agree with comments on the belated introduction of Horcruxes, as 
well as Unbreakable Vows and Inferi.  The fact that these things had 
never been mentioned before not only earmarked them as key plot 
devices in this book, but raises possibilities for the previous 
storylines.  

My mind has been filling with increasingly convoluted theories 
employing some or all of these new concepts.  I think it likely that 
Dumbledore and Snape entered into an Unbreakable Curse, either a 
longstanding one based on Dumbledore offering protection to Snape in 
return for loyalty, or a recent one based on Dumbledore wanting 
Snape to kill him if things went awry. 

I'm pondering the idea that Dumbledore didn't die, but I'm not sure 
if anything would be gained by feigning death and making Snape a 
murderer and #2 on Harry's hitlist, so I'm still mulling that over.  
I think the AK and other evidence of Dumbledore's death (the 
portrait in the office, the flaming funereal floorshow) could have 
been faked.  It seems likely that he was giving Snape non-verbal 
instructions just before he was hit with the curse.  He seemed to 
want to be killed by Snape if by anyone.

I'm intrigued as to the nature of the potion Dumbledore drank in the 
cave (well, duh - who isn't?), especially reading his remarks as 
Harry forced each glassful down his gullet.  Was he turned into an 
Inferius, destined to slide into the lake with the other Inferi had 
he not been revived by Harry?  Was he as good as dead and therefore 
happy to be killed?  Did R.A.B. suffer the same fate when he pinched 
the original locket?

I agree that R.A.B. would appear to be Regulus Black, but that's a 
bit too easy, as Saitaina said.  Perhaps it *is* that easy though, 
and perhaps Dumbledore *is* dead and Snape *did* betray him, etc.  
Perhaps Harry is also a Horcrux, as some have suggested, but I'd 
like to think the truth will be much more inventive than that.  

I liked the connections with CoS, particularly the parallel in the 
hold the HBP's potions book appeared to have over Harry as a 
comparison with Riddle's Diary.  I was surprised that Harry tried 
the Sectumsempra spell without knowing what the hell it did and that 
he escaped appropriate punishment, although I imagine Snape was not 
keen on the source being traced back to him.

Hmmm...  more later, I think.

Neil    







From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:36:09 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:36:09 -0000
Subject: HBP impressions, spoilers, and a tantrum
In-Reply-To: <dbe3av+9bb8@...>
Message-ID: <dbe4u9+bvrr@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon" 
<joym999 at a...> wrote:
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk
> alsdkfjqpwoinvSPOILER SPACEa;oskdj;alskdfjasldk

<snippity>

> --Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, who thinks that the Accio committee 
should 
> cancel the Snape trial, hang him in effigy (or, preferably, in 
> actuality), and hold a memorial service for Dumbledore instead

How about the Guy Fawkes option?

-Nora kids, she kids...but has many of the same problems with the 
whole setup





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 18:16:47 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:16:47 +0100
Subject: HBP - it's that man again, mostly
Message-ID: <4868ADBB-4AA7-4044-AF3E-48B738A74036@...>



S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
A
N
D
A
B
I
T
M
O
R
E


Deja vu.
Or something very close.
Severus Snape takes centre stage - again.

Mind you, I don't mind - prefer it, in fact. SFAIC he's always been  
far and away the most interesting character in the books. Not much  
bothered whether he's a foul triple-crosser or merely a double- 
crosser, a reformed DE who's come in from the cold and now helping to  
bring down the arch-villain. What is intriguing is that after 6 books  
we still don't know.

Oh, most of us take sides: he's a dyed in the wool nasty who should  
be strung up by the goolies (just watch the HPfG board this week for  
some prime foaming-at-the-mouth invective is my estimation) or (my  
preference) a superb actor, a front, and only those in the WW who  
really need to know have  the  faintest idea of what his  game really  
is.

And he's up to his usual tricks - or rather Jo is as his onlie  
begetter and director - in the latest epic volume. Splendidly  
ambiguous he is too. But as usual some of us will find or generate  
enough elbow-room to  be able to form a small cheering section.

DD tells that Malfoy snot that he'd known all  year that Draino was  
after  his  scalp. So who told DD? So far as we know only 4 people  
knew - Voldy, Snape, Cissy and Draco. Place your bets on who told DD.

The climactic scene -  DD doing his "this is a far, far better thing"  
*knowing* that Malfoy won't pull the trigger on his wand and Snape  
stepping up to the plate. There have been posts already speculating  
that Snape was under orders previously placed by DD - quite possible;  
he'd nearly been caught out by one of Sally's baubles already. He's  
playing with fire and there's f a good chance he's gonna get burned  
sooner or later. Snape could have been enjoined to save DD from a  
fate worse than death.

DD drinks a tub full of a Voldy potion. If it's straight poison then  
it ain't very  fast acting. But think. Would Voldy want the thief to  
drop  down dead on the spot? Or to suffer -  perhaps for a long, long  
time. Would Voldy assume that there would be two thieves on that  
tight little island? Probably not. (And why did the phrase "Stole it,  
he did my precious" spring to mind?) Anyway the thief wants water.  
Magical production of water is interdicted, and when anyone touches  
the lake it's Curse of the Zombies time. My nasty imagination  
suspects that DD (or Harry, if they'd succeeded in carrying him off)  
would not become truly dead. To  borrow from LoTR again - think Ring- 
Wraiths. Even though they escape DD knows that this time he's bitten  
off more than he can chew. He *has* to die - and soon. And it is up  
to Snape to administer the coup-de-grace, saving him from something  
worse and only incidentally fulfill his oath to Cissy by giving Draco  
a chance to review his options - a Regulus replay?

One of the new twists in HBP is the concept of bottled memories. I  
was wondering who would do the last book explication if DD died. No  
need to  worry anymore, it'll be DD. And the Keeper of the Bottles?  
Snape. This time think Hari Seldon. Assuming that it all goes to  
plan, of course.

Small niggles.
Who Imperio'd Rosmerta?
Why do we see Tonks wandering the corridors of Hogwarts but SFAICR  
no  other Auror types? And in apparently close proximity to the RoR  
and Draco, too. Enamoured of Lupin - who was undercover among  
Fenrir's friends, who just happens to be in tight with the Malfoys.  
Now if a friendly soul told her that Lupin's life was in her hands  
and she'd better co-operate......
Hmm.

Lots to think about with this latest book.

Kneasy






From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 18:29:14 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:29:14 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP First impressions - SPOILERS within!
In-Reply-To: <dbe29o+9ka2@...>
References: <dbdqg3+3svu@...> <dbe29o+9ka2@...>
Message-ID: <a6363246050717112951252fa5@...>

On 7/17/05, fhmaneely <fmaneely at ...> wrote:
> 
>  --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman 
> > <catorman at y...> wrote:
> > > I
> > > 
> > > L
> > > 
> > > O
> > > 
> > > V
> > > 
> > > E
> > > 
> > > D
> > > 
> > > T
> > > 
> > > H
> > > 
> > > I
> > > 
> > > S
> > > 
> > > B
> > > 
> > > O
> > > 
> > > O
> > > 
> > > K
> > 
> > 
> 

Though DD originally told Harry to go and get Snape, I think he changed his 
mind when they had the "It's a trap!" moment. Rather than have Harry run 
straight into a horde of Death Eaters, DD chose to freeze Harry in place.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 19:01:33 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:01:33 -0000
Subject: HBP:First Impressions, esp about blood
In-Reply-To: <dbe4gk+625f@...>
Message-ID: <dbe9ud+afva@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> V. funny spoiler space copyright Aberforth's Goat
> YOU
> COULD
> ALL
> GET
> YOUR
> WANDS
> OUT
> RIGHT
> NOW
> AND
> POINT
> THEM
> AT
> ME
> AND
> SAY
> THE
> WORDS,
> AND
> I DOUBT
> I'D
> GET
> SO
> MUCH
> AS
> A NOSEBLEED
> end Spoiler space
> 
> Pippin wrote:
> 
> > That trickle of blood is either the biggest Flint this side of
> > Everest, or our man Snape is outed. The curse didn't work. AK 
> > doesn't leave any sign. If it had stopped Dumbledore's heart then 
> > he wouldn't have bled. QED
> 
> I had the same thought but I think we're both wrong.  If you have a 
> fatal heart attack and immediately fall off a tower, I think blood 
> will come out of your mouth or nose.  Is there a forensic physician 
> in the house?
> 

Yeah, there probably would be a small amount of blood.

Mind you, DD has had a gut-full of poison(?). He's dying.
There are lots of chemicals, natural and manufactured, that are corrosive
to the G.I. tract. One of the first actions in poisoning cases is to find out 
if it's one of these that has been ingested. And if so, the rule is do not 
induce vomiting, try to dilute the stuff. Which  is more or less what Harry
tried to do. A stomach full of corrosive could cause a bit of a bleed too.
And Jo is married to a medic. She probably checked.

No; I wouldn't get too fussed about a trickle of blood from the mouth or
nose if someone's been poisoned and drops off a tower after being AK'd.
I'd guess they've got enough problems already.

Kneasy





From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 18:30:10 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:30:10 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
References: <dbe4gk+625f@...>
Message-ID: <001f01c58afd$91ab2a80$d358aacf@...>

Lots
Of
Spoiler
Space
and
Random
Thoughts
On
The
Universe
Like
What
Makes
Airplanes
Stay
Up

I have lots of thoughts. I have little time. So I will post what, to me, is
the biggest discrepancy I've spotted, since I can't resolve it and it's
either a Flint or I'm missing something.

Trelawney tells Harry that Snape interrupted her interview with Dumbledore
lo these many years ago. Harry charges in to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore
seems to verify that Snape was the person who carried half-the-prophecy back
to Voldemort. Dumbledore seems to say that Snape was then overcome with
remorse for what happened afterward and this is why Dumbledore believes him.

Okay, passing over the fact that there's obviously something Dumbledore
considers telling Harry about Snape, and does not (that would be the real
reason he trusts him)--I'm bothered.

In GoF, in the scene we see in the Pensieve, Dumbledore tells the assembled,
"Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side
BEFORE LORD VOLDEMORT'S DOWNFALL and turned spy for us, at great personal
risk." (590-591) (emphasis mine.)

Okay. These don't add up. Lord Voldemort's downfall was the direct result of
learning of the prophecy, when he killed the Potters and got all rebounded
on.

If Snape rejoined our side before V's downfall, wouldn't he already be on
our side at the time of the interview? Why would he have been spying at all,
and why would he have carried the prophecy back to V? Unless Dumbledore was
lying to Harry?

If Snape didn't rejoin our side before the Potters died, was Dumbledore
lying to the assembly?

Help.

~Amanda, sorry for Joywitch but Amanda Binns saw this coming a long time
ago. I actually expected it in Book 5.




From melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 19:39:28 2005
From: melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid (melclaros)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:39:28 -0000
Subject: HBP - it's that man again, mostly
In-Reply-To: <4868ADBB-4AA7-4044-AF3E-48B738A74036@...>
Message-ID: <dbec5g+i6m6@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> 
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> A
> N
> D
> A
> B
> I
> T
> M
> O
> R
> E
> 
> 
> Deja vu.
> Or something very close.
> Severus Snape takes centre stage - again.



Yes, he does, and deserves all of it.
Great post as usual, I've really been looking forward to this
conversation here.

You did miss ONE vitally important Snape revelation (and something to
sit back and watch on HPfGU in the next few days) and that is that he
is *not* a vampire! (no news to me, but you know what I'm on about)
One of the best laugh-out-loud moment was Jo's toss-out to the fandom,
the Great Sanguini! And to craftily have Snape be the next guest
brought out of the crowd--masterful.

I absolutely believe DD knew he was done for and his final act was
saving two lives--Draco's was saved from losing any hope of redemption
(DD would never allow a child to make a choice like that) and Snape
was released from his "Unbreakable Vow" (and given a whole lot more
street-cred with the DEs)
Snape's shout of "It's OVER!" is the start point for the next book, I
think.

And see, he still hasn't killed Harry. How many chances did he have
just in that last battle scene? How many chances did the DE's
have--and *who* called them off?








From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:03:28 2005
From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:03:28 EDT
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP impressions, spoilers, and a tantrum
Message-ID: <id.17072005130328.00000@FPE>

spoiler

space

though

I

think

it's

safe

to 

assume

most

have

read

by

now

Joywitch (hi, Joy!) wrote:
[snippy snip] 

<<<I am SO MAD at JKR for killing Dumbledore.  I knew from the start  that Dumbledore would eventually have to die, but I was sure it  wouldn't happen until book 7.  It's not fair to Harry -- it's too  soon after Sirius' death, there's still too much for Harry to learn  from him, it's too painful, it's TOO AWFUL.  ::sobs::

And I hate Snape for killing him.  I don't care if it does turn out  to be true that he did it under Dumbledore's orders or it's all part  of some grand plan or Dumbledore was dying anyway because of the  magical blech he drank I don't care I don't care I HATE SNAPE ANYWAY  he's always been a greasy sadistic ugly bullying unprofessional  slimeball.
[snip again]
1.  Why did Dumbledore freeze Harry?  Obviously, he was protecting  Harry, but why freeze him, as opposed to a magical barrier or  something?  Why a spell that meant that Harry could watch, but not  act?>>>

Because Dumbledore's not dead. Not really. He needed to have Harry *see* Snape "kill" him. The ministry and the Order are now predispossed to believe Harry. And then there was the whole very public ceremony of the funeral. *Everyone* now believes that Dumbledore, the only wizard that Voldemort ever feared, is dead. It also cements Snape in further with Voldemort. V will trust Snape even more now. And Snape is still serving DD. I hate him, always have, but he is one of the good guys. DD will still be running the show.




Oh, and I loved loved loved this book. Best of the lot.



From voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:03:35 2005
From: voicelady at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (voicelady)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:03:35 EDT
Subject: [the_old_crowd] AAACK!  i've got a defective book!!!
Message-ID: <id.17072005130335.00000@FPE>

Kaitlin wrote:

<<<<grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
My stupid book goes to page 532, skips to page 567 and goes all the way  to page 593, and then goes back to page 567 again.  Pages 533-566 are  missing.  Damn damn damn damn damn!!!!!
I gotta go return it today...>>>>


No no no! Hang on to it; it will become a collector's edition as a flawed first edition!



From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 20:13:21 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:13:21 -0000
Subject: HBP - it's that man again, mostly
In-Reply-To: <4868ADBB-4AA7-4044-AF3E-48B738A74036@...>
Message-ID: <dbee51+7fr4@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> 
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> A
> N
> D
> A
> B
> I
> T
> M
> O
> R
> E
> 
Kneasy wrote: 
> Deja vu.
> Or something very close.
> Severus Snape takes centre stage - again.
> 
> Mind you, I don't mind - prefer it, in fact. SFAIC he's always 
been  
> far and away the most interesting character in the books. Not much  
> bothered whether he's a foul triple-crosser or merely a double- 
> crosser, a reformed DE who's come in from the cold and now helping 
to  
> bring down the arch-villain. What is intriguing is that after 6 
books  
> we still don't know.

I knew there would be some great posts and you have not let me down!
So, why did DD freeze Harry. I see it as  another protection charm 
for Harry. I still thought Snape on DD side after the Spinner's End 
chapt. then ofc ourse radar went up after he was announced as the new 
DADA instructor, the curse on that position and all. Snape killing DD 
is boinb to be debatable for a long time. IMvHO, it was prearranged 
between them if something should happen to DD.

Hated that DD died, really did, but really hated Umbridge at his 
funeral.

Question to you Kneasy, what do you think about Scrimgouer? 

Regards,
Fran
Still not understanding why the good humor man Fortescue bit the 
dust. Then again I love ice cream
> 
> 







From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 20:19:27 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:19:27 -0000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP impressions, spoilers, and a tantrum
In-Reply-To: <id.17072005130328.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <dbeegf+p2h3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> 
wrote:
> spoiler
> 
> space
> 
> though
> 
> I
> 
> think
> 
> it's
> 
> safe
> 
> to 
> 
> assume
> 
> most
> 
> have
> 
> read
> 
> by
> 
> now
> 
> Joywitch (hi, Joy!) wrote:
> [snippy snip] 
> 
> <<<I am SO MAD at JKR for killing Dumbledore.  I knew from the 
start  that Dumbledore would eventually have to die, but I was sure 
it  wouldn't happen until book 7.  It's not fair to Harry -- it's 
too  soon after Sirius' death, there's still too much for Harry to 
learn  from him, it's too painful, it's TOO AWFUL.  ::sobs::
> 
> And I hate Snape for killing him.  I don't care if it does turn 
out  to be true that he did it under Dumbledore's orders or it's all 
part  of some grand plan or Dumbledore was dying anyway because of 
the  magical blech he drank I don't care I don't care I HATE SNAPE 
ANYWAY  he's always been a greasy sadistic ugly bullying 
unprofessional  slimeball.
> [snip again]
> 1.  Why did Dumbledore freeze Harry?  Obviously, he was protecting  
Harry, but why freeze him, as opposed to a magical barrier or  
something?  Why a spell that meant that Harry could watch, but not  
act?>>>
> 
> Because Dumbledore's not dead. Not really. He needed to have Harry 
*see* Snape "kill" him. The ministry and the Order are now 
predispossed to believe Harry. And then there was the whole very 
public ceremony of the funeral. *Everyone* now believes that 
Dumbledore, the only wizard that Voldemort ever feared, is dead. It 
also cements Snape in further with Voldemort. V will trust Snape even 
more now. And Snape is still serving DD. I hate him, always have, but 
he is one of the good guys. DD will still be running the show.
> 
> 
But what will happen to Draco? He seemed to be the one LV wanted to 
kill DD. I dont think DD would be cruel enough to make someone 
witness his death like that. Harry needed to be there for a reason as 
I have stated before. 
As sad as am about DD, hated Umbrigede being at his funeral more!
Fran
> 
> Oh, and I loved loved loved this book. Best of the lot.





From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 20:19:38 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:19:38 -0000
Subject: HBP First impressions - SPOILERS within!
In-Reply-To: <dbdqg3+3svu@...>
Message-ID: <dbeegq+u4dl@...>

I

L
O
V
E
D

T
H
E

B
O
O
K

T
O
O

Amy:

> The Freezing Charm he put on Harry, forcing him to stay and witness 
> the event when he had specifically told him to go get Snape.  What 
> was that all about?  

This baffled me at first, although now that I've thought more about 
it, I think I understand why.  Dumbledore knew unfriendly fire was 
coming through the door, and he made a split second decision to 
potentially sacrifice his own life to save Harry's.  He knew Harry's 
"love of playing the hero," and knew that Harry would join in the 
fray if left to his own devices, which would increase the possibility 
of Harry being hurt or killed.  By freezing him, he ensured Harry's 
physical safety, although Harry's emotional well-being has suffered 
considerably.

~Phyllis
who always knew Snape had never truly changed sides
"poisonous toadstools don't change their spots"





From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 20:53:38 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:53:38 -0000
Subject: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <001f01c58afd$91ab2a80$d358aacf@...>
Message-ID: <dbeggi+prv0@...>

Amanda Geist wrote:
>
> Okay. These don't add up. Lord Voldemort's downfall was the direct
result of
> learning of the prophecy, when he killed the Potters and got all
rebounded
> on.
>
> If Snape rejoined our side before V's downfall, wouldn't he
already be on
> our side at the time of the interview? Why would he have been
spying at all,
> and why would he have carried the prophecy back to V? Unless
Dumbledore was
> lying to Harry?
>
> If Snape didn't rejoin our side before the Potters died, was
Dumbledore
> lying to the assembly?

Pip:
No, they do add up. Trelawney made the prophecy before Harry was
born.

Then it took nearly a year after Harry's birth for Voldemort to find
the hidden Potters

Pip!Squeak

"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 20:57:43 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:57:43 -0000
Subject: HBP - it's that man again, mostly
In-Reply-To: <dbee51+7fr4@...>
Message-ID: <dbego7+f9vp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
> <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > A
> > N
> > D
> > A
> > B
> > I
> > T
> > M
> > O
> > R
> > E
> > 
> 
> I knew there would be some great posts and you have not let me down!
> So, why did DD freeze Harry. I see it as  another protection charm 
> for Harry. I still thought Snape on DD side after the Spinner's End 
> chapt. then ofc ourse radar went up after he was announced as the new 
> DADA instructor, the curse on that position and all. Snape killing DD 
> is boinb to be debatable for a long time. IMvHO, it was prearranged 
> between them if something should happen to DD.
> 

Kneasy:
Deary me.
After 6 books you ask why Harry would be immobilised at a tricky moment?
'Cos he's a numpty.
He' do exactly the wrong thing. Totally guaranteed. 24 carat certainty.
Let loose he'd fight Draco, fight Snape, fight everybody. Draco could end
up killing someone through anger, in the heat of the moment, and Harry
and Snape, um. Can you imagine Harry's reaction to the AKing of DD if he 
hadn't been hors de combat?

Plus - and I  think this is important, when crucial information is finally
revealed, Harry will have a clear memory of *exactly* what happened, 
something more useful than an adenaline-fuelled "Let's zap the buggers!" 
confusion. Each word and gesture can eventually be examined and explained.
It won't make him like Snape any better, of course - he'll never do that, but
it should help to persuade him that there was more going on than met the eye.
  
> Hated that DD died, really did, but really hated Umbridge at his 
> funeral.
> 

Kneasy:
Y-e-e-e-e-s. Also. Sort of. But not much.
DD has been Harry's crutch. he's relied on him more than on anyone else; DD
has got him out of more scrapes than is healthy for fostering informed and 
intelligent self-reliance. From now on Harry has to fend for himself. It's 
gonna be his final training module.
More or less a plot inevitability, when you think about it.

> Question to you Kneasy, what do you think about Scrimgouer? 
> 

Kneasy:
Scrimgeour. Says an awful lot about him that Dear Dolly is still something
significant in the Ministry. Plus his obsession with presenting a common front,
trying to look effective  etc. Typical political bureaucrat. Total tosser. Wouldn't
trust him as far as the foot of our stairs. Has there been a purge *inside* the
Ministry? Bet there hasn't; just the signs on a few doors have changed. It'll
be the old mantra, I think - "We know best." And now the only really independent,
knowledgeable outside observer deserving of respect has gone. They'll screw it
up in weeks. It'll be somebody else's fault, naturally. (I have a very low opinion 
of the so-called political classes. Any of 'em would sell their grandmother for
a transient poll-rating. Bastards.)







From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 21:09:06 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:09:06 -0000
Subject: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <001f01c58afd$91ab2a80$d358aacf@...>
Message-ID: <dbehdi+3qud@...>

I think spoiler spaces are dumb.  What the hell are you doing here, 
anyway, if you haven't read HBP?  Turn off the computer and read the 
book.  I think spoiler spaces are dumb.  What the hell are you doing 
here, anyway, if you haven't read HBP?  Turn off the computer and 
read the book.  I think spoiler spaces are dumb.  What the hell are 
you doing here, anyway, if you haven't read HBP?  Turn off the 
computer and read the book.  I think spoiler spaces are dumb.  What 
the hell are you doing here, anyway, if you haven't read HBP?  Turn 
off the computer and read the book.  I think spoiler spaces are 
dumb.  What the hell are you doing here, anyway, if you haven't read 
HBP?  Turn off the computer and read the book.  I think spoiler 
spaces are dumb.  What the hell are you doing here, anyway, if you 
haven't read HBP?  Turn off the computer and read the book.  I think 
spoiler spaces are dumb.  What the hell are you doing here, anyway, 
if you haven't read HBP?  Turn off the computer and read the book.  
How many times do I have to repeat myself?

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:

> the biggest discrepancy I've spotted, since I can't resolve it and 
it's
> either a Flint or I'm missing something.
> 
[snip]
> These don't add up. Lord Voldemort's downfall was the direct result 
of
> learning of the prophecy, when he killed the Potters and got all 
rebounded
> on.
> 
> If Snape rejoined our side before V's downfall, wouldn't he already 
be on
> our side at the time of the interview? Why would he have been 
spying at all,
> and why would he have carried the prophecy back to V? Unless 
Dumbledore was
> lying to Harry?

Why couldn't Snape have repented during the time period between the 
prophecy and Voldie's downfall.  There's at least a year in there.

I found a potential Flint in this scene, too.  Trelawney says that 
she saw Snape come in.  That means that she was out of her trance -- 
therefore she had spoken the whole prophecy.  But if Snape was still 
in the vicinity, doesn't that necessarily mean that Snape heard the 
WHOLE prophecy?  We know that the person who told Voldie only heard 
half of it.  There's 2 explanations I can think of:

1.  The person who heard 1/2 the prophecy was some other than Snape, 
although in that case the corridor outside the upstairs room in the 
Hogshead was getting awfully crowded.

2.  Aberforth found Snape eavesdropping in the hall and distracted 
him so that he didn't actually hear the second part of the prophecy 
even though he was outside the room.  This seems unlikely -- Snape's 
a pretty powerful wizard, and it's been pretty clearly stated that 
Aberforth is pretty dim.  Hard to believe Snape didn't have a handy 
spell that would have allowed half of him to listen and the other 
half make excuses to our favorite goat fancier.

JZM






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 21:17:10 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:17:10 -0000
Subject: HBP - it's that man again, mostly
In-Reply-To: <dbego7+f9vp@...>
Message-ID: <dbehsm+spd0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> 
wrote:
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
> > <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > > A
> > > N
> > > D
> > > A
> > > B
> > > I
> > > T
> > > M
> > > O
> > > R
> > > E
> > > 
> > 
> > I knew there would be some great posts and you have not let me 
down!
> > So, why did DD freeze Harry. I see it as  another protection 
charm 
> > for Harry. I still thought Snape on DD side after the Spinner's 
End 
> > chapt. then ofc ourse radar went up after he was announced as the 
new 
> > DADA instructor, the curse on that position and all. Snape 
killing DD 
> > is boinb to be debatable for a long time. IMvHO, it was 
prearranged 
> > between them if something should happen to DD.
> > 
> 
> Kneasy:
> Deary me.
> After 6 books you ask why Harry would be immobilised at a tricky 
moment?
> 'Cos he's a numpty.
> He' do exactly the wrong thing. Totally guaranteed. 24 carat 
certainty.
> Let loose he'd fight Draco, fight Snape, fight everybody. Draco 
could end
> up killing someone through anger, in the heat of the moment, and 
Harry
> and Snape, um. Can you imagine Harry's reaction to the AKing of DD 
if he 
> hadn't been hors de combat?

Thought about that, but it seemed too obvious. I have picked up that 
Harry is a little to quick to jump into action. Something just 
doesn't fit though. Think DD knew his time was up, but freezing Harry 
so he will witness his death just just seems odd. 
> 
> Kneasy:
> Y-e-e-e-e-s. Also. Sort of. But not much.
> DD has been Harry's crutch. he's relied on him more than on anyone 
else; DD
> has got him out of more scrapes than is healthy for fostering 
informed and 
> intelligent self-reliance. From now on Harry has to fend for 
himself. It's 
> gonna be his final training module.
> More or less a plot inevitability, when you think about it.  
You are right. time for Harry to hit the yellow brickroad for 
Godric's Hollow. 
> 
> > Question to you Kneasy, what do you think about Scrimgouer? 
> > 
> 
> Kneasy:
> Scrimgeour. Says an awful lot about him that Dear Dolly is still 
something
> significant in the Ministry. Plus his obsession with presenting a 
common front,
> trying to look effective  etc. Typical political bureaucrat. Total 
tosser. Wouldn't
> trust him as far as the foot of our stairs. Has there been a purge 
*inside* the
> Ministry? Bet there hasn't; just the signs on a few doors have 
changed. It'll
> be the old mantra, I think - "We know best." And now the only 
really independent,
> knowledgeable outside observer deserving of respect has gone. 
They'll screw it
> up in weeks. It'll be somebody else's fault, naturally. (I have a 
very low opinion 
> of the so-called political classes. Any of 'em would sell their 
grandmother for
> a transient poll-rating. Bastards.)

Corrupt politicians are universal it seems. Only have known one who 
was actually a pretty decent woman. She kept her word on term limits 
and at the height of her popularity, did not run for re-election 
after 2 terms. Sometimes I think greed will be the end of us all...

Regards,
Fran





From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 21:16:36 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:16:36 -0000
Subject: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <dbeggi+prv0@...>
Message-ID: <dbehrk+sse6@...>

> Amanda Geist wrote:
> >
> > Okay. These don't add up. Lord Voldemort's downfall was the direct
> result of
> > learning of the prophecy, when he killed the Potters and got all
> rebounded
> > on.
> >
> > If Snape rejoined our side before V's downfall, wouldn't he
> already be on
> > our side at the time of the interview? Why would he have been
> spying at all,
> > and why would he have carried the prophecy back to V? Unless
> Dumbledore was
> > lying to Harry?
> >
> > If Snape didn't rejoin our side before the Potters died, was
> Dumbledore
> > lying to the assembly?
> 
> Pip:
> No, they do add up. Trelawney made the prophecy before Harry was
> born.
> 
> Then it took nearly a year after Harry's birth for Voldemort to find
> the hidden Potters

No, they don't. Because according to this book, the event that pushed 
Snape back to our side was remorse about the *outcome* of his 
reporting the prophecy. That outcome was the attack on the Potters--
but that was also Voldemort's downfall. So how could Snape have come 
back to the good side, before Voldemort's downfall, when it was the 
events of that downfall that caused the remorse?

What am I missing?

~Amanda





From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 21:25:56 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:25:56 -0000
Subject: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <dbehrk+sse6@...>
Message-ID: <dbeid4+enol@...>

Amanda wrote:

(and do we still need spoiler space? Has anyone on this list not 
finished the book?) 
> 
> No, they don't. Because according to this book, the event that 
pushed 
> Snape back to our side was remorse about the *outcome* of his 
> reporting the prophecy. That outcome was the attack on the Potters--
> but that was also Voldemort's downfall. So how could Snape have come 
> back to the good side, before Voldemort's downfall, when it was the 
> events of that downfall that caused the remorse?
> 
> What am I missing?
> 

"You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised 
how Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy." - Dumbledore.

That doesn't have to be about the outcome. The realisation could have 
come before V. killed the Potters - providing Snape found out that the 
prophecy meant V. was *planning* to kill the Potters.

Pip!Squeak

"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 21:33:22 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:33:22 -0000
Subject: HBP - it's that man again, mostly
In-Reply-To: <dbego7+f9vp@...>
Message-ID: <dbeir2+n72n@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> 
wrote:
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
> > <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > > A
> > > N
> > > D
> > > A
> > > B
> > > I
> > > T
> > > M
> > > O
> > > R
> > > E
> > > 
> > 

> 
> > Question to you Kneasy, what do you think about Scrimgouer? 
> > 
> 
> Kneasy:
> Scrimgeour. Says an awful lot about him that Dear Dolly is still 
something significant in the Ministry. Plus his obsession with 
presenting a common front, trying to look effective  etc. Typical 
political bureaucrat. Total tosser. Wouldn't trust him as far as the 
foot of our stairs. Has there been a purge *inside* the
> Ministry? Bet there hasn't; just the signs on a few doors have 
changed. 

Carolyn:
As Ginger asked earlier today, what relation is he to Brutus 
Scrimgeour, author of 'The Beater's Bible'? He whose first rule 
is 'take out the seeker' (see QTTA, p.27). Ages ago I wrote a long 
post all about Quidditch-related corruption at the heart of the 
Ministry, and the new Minister for Magic's general shiftiness fits in 
nicely. 

How about Brutus is Rufus' brother, uncle or father, an ex-Slytherin 
DE-sympathiser, and tasked with a fallback-plan involving nobbling 
Harry and the Gryffindor Quidditch team for good?? 

Alternatively, maybe JKR mis-remembered she called him Brutus first 
time round, and they are one and the same person...






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 21:36:27 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:36:27 -0000
Subject: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <dbehrk+sse6@...>
Message-ID: <dbej0r+rqtk@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> wrote:
> > Pip:
> > No, they do add up. Trelawney made the prophecy before Harry was
> > born.
> > 
> > Then it took nearly a year after Harry's birth for Voldemort to find
> > the hidden Potters
> 
> No, they don't. Because according to this book, the event that pushed 
> Snape back to our side was remorse about the *outcome* of his 
> reporting the prophecy. That outcome was the attack on the Potters--
> but that was also Voldemort's downfall. So how could Snape have come 
> back to the good side, before Voldemort's downfall, when it was the 
> events of that downfall that caused the remorse?
> 
> What am I missing?
> 

Good thinking. Well spotted.

A bit of totally unsupported speculation - mostly - though I have considered
these points on HPfGU in isolation.

First Hagrid in PS/SS - 
"... the wonder is, he never tried to get 'em on his side before..."
Before? the implication is that Voldy tried to *recruit* the Potters at some time.

Secondly- the strange coincidence of all of Harry's grandparents apparently
dying within a very short time frame not long before he was born.

Thirdly - Petunia's paranoia about magic and wizards. It seems much more 
than just sibling antipathy. Much deeper - maybe tied to points one and two?
"Wanna join my gang?" might have been backed by threats and action when
Voldy got an answer he didn't want. 
Could Sevvy have felt responsible?

Cor! With a bit of luck he can claim credit for knocking off three generations
of Potters! Bet that'd make him feel proud!

Kneasy






From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 21:43:07 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:43:07 +0100
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050717183634.009b7ef0@...>

Instead of spoiler space, a digression, which is deliberately wordy...

In a post about etymology, a few words about the plural of "Patronus", 
which has recently been the subject of debate: The Latin word is fourth 
declension, which means that whatever the English plural might be, it is 
NOT "patroni". Latin "-i" plural endings belong to the second declension, 
and English is very snobbish about the plurals of words taken wholesale 
from Latin.

In Latin, 4th declension plurals end on "us", i.e. the same as the 
singular, and 4th D. words which have come into English unchanged add "-es" 
for the plural to distinguish them from the singular. An example which 
immediately springs to  mind is "census". Who's ever heard of population 
"censi" as opposed to "censuses"? (BTW, my spell-checker just questioned 
"censi", but not "censuses". :-)

To insist that "Patronus" must have a plural of "Patroni" is to make 
incorrect suppositions based on a fractured knowledge of Latin grammar.

As the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

That should suffice as spoiler protection, but I'll waffle on a bit, just 
in case.

I was going to include the term "Horcrux" in the subject heading as only 
someone who's read HBP would have any inkling of what I'm on about, but 
decided to shroud it in a little caution.

As soon as it became apparent that Horcruxes would be important, i.e. the 
first time we hear the word, which conveniently was at the end of a chapter 
(Ch. 17), I took some time out from reading to try to determine a possible 
etymology in an effort to work out the significance. I reached for my Greek 
and Latin dictionaries for a little help as well (my command of these 
languages is a little rusty).

The red herring of the subject being raised in the context of asking a 
*potions* teacher about it (or was Sluggy Head of Slytherin House at the 
time, as well?) led me off-track for a while, but I still didn't guess what 
the term meant until we got the complete answer.

Apart from her character names, which usually have a basis in any one of 
myriad mythologies, JKR's invented words usually come from Greek, Latin or 
occasionally French. Given that I have at least a passing grasp of all of 
these, I felt I should be able to work something out. Here's a precis of my 
thought processes. This may be boring to some, but I thought I'd write it 
up anyway (especially as it seems most people don't seem to like the name 
"Horcrux" - as it happens, neither do I). I've always been keen on 
etymology and JKR's combinations are generally one of the things I like 
about her books, so perhaps someone else might be interested.

It's clear there are two parts: "hor-" and "-crux".

The second part was easy (or so I thought) : "crux" can mean only "cross" 
(as in what Jesus died on) in Latin and nothing else; no similar-sounding 
word exists in Greek or French. One of its primary Latin offspring is 
"cruciatus" (where have we heard that word  before?) which means, 
literally, "torture" (as a noun, the verb being "cruciare", or in the first 
person singular, "crucio"...).

More on "crux" in a moment. In the meantime, let's look at "hor-".

My first idea was about "time": Latin "hora" has made it to most languages, 
including English, to mean "hour", and has extended to many concepts 
related to time (probably best-known example being "horloge", French for 
"clock"). Was Riddle interested in some form of time travel? Especially as 
JKR's already insisted that there's a connection between HBP and CoS, and 
although there was no time travel as such in Book 2, Riddle managed to 
preserve his former self for the future.

Other options:

- various Latin (and transliterated Greek) words starting "horr-" (but note 
double R) related to "horror", "horrible", etc  (that's where we got the 
English words!), which doesn't really make sense - if "crux" is a cross, 
it's horrific enough. Also, it needs a double R.

- all kinds of words starting "hort-" related to gardening and botany. 
Hmmm. Perhaps Riddle's considering cultivating objects of torture? An 
incantation to make a cross spring up behind the victim and crucify him? 
Nah. A bit too close to the effects of crucio which we know about. Besides, 
Riddle asked about "horcuxES", so it's not an incantation. Furthermore, it 
doesn't make sense without the T.

- "horaeum", meaning "pickle" (fruit/vegetables preserved in vinegar): not 
very promising. But perhaps Riddle wants to preserve the feeling of being 
tortured? We know he is of a sadistic bent and perhaps he wants to collect 
people's dying moments of torture to re-enjoy again and again? And perhaps 
there's some kind of potion the victim needs to take, which is why he's 
asking his Potions master? This sounds like a good candidate.

- related to the above, "horreum", meaning "store-room" or "larder". Note 
the double R, so I discounted it.

I felt happy with the idea of "pickle" + "cross" (plus a bit of artistic 
licence) - it fit with what we know of Riddle's personality, but at the 
time I didn't realise that it doesn't really fit: we were introduced to the 
Horcrux in conjunction with Riddle's murder of his parents: from what we 
know, when the bodies were found, there was nothing wrong with them except 
for the fact that they were dead - surely if they'd died while being 
tortured, there would have been some indication?

Anyway, it's not until the second Sluggy memory that we discovered that JKR 
was being naughty and (presumably) used the modern English meaning of the 
word which is only distantly related to its Latin root (dictionary.com on 
"crux": "The basic, central, or critical point or feature - the crux of the 
matter"; "A puzzling or apparently insoluble problem"), but even so, 
there's a fair bit of distance to considering "crux" to mean "soul".

So, she takes a modern, rather than historical, meaning for one of her 
words, and mis-spells the other (there should be a double R) to describe 
crucial (sic) objects for the resolution of the books' central mystery. Is 
it any wonder we couldn't work it out?

--
Richard, who doesn't like mixed etymologies, and neither do academics



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 21:58:47 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:58:47 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050717183634.009b7ef0@...>
Message-ID: <dbekan+cioq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Richard <hp at p...> wrote:
> 
> In Latin, 4th declension plurals end on "us", i.e. the same as the 
> singular, and 4th D. words which have come into English unchanged add "-es" 
> for the plural to distinguish them from the singular. An example which 
> immediately springs to  mind is "census". Who's ever heard of population 
> "censi" as opposed to "censuses"? (BTW, my spell-checker just questioned 
> "censi", but not "censuses". :-)
> 
> To insist that "Patronus" must have a plural of "Patroni" is to make 
> incorrect suppositions based on a fractured knowledge of Latin grammar.
> 
> As the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> 

Possibly.
But it looks neater and contains fewer letters. RSI, you know.

And 'hor' - try something derived from hors de combat, hors d'oeurves or the like.
It means 'out' in this context, doesn't it?







From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 22:04:18 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:04:18 -0000
Subject: Nitpick
Message-ID: <dbekl2+2mqm@...>

Ok, I'm re-reading now, so this time I've got my LOON hat on, and I 
may have spotted a discrepancy.  It has to do with the trio's OWLs.

Harry and Ron each get 7 OWLs and fail 2 exams.  IOW, they took 9 OWL 
exams.  Hermione gets 11 OWLs.  But Hermione wasn't taking TWO more 
classes than Ron and Harry, she was taking 1 more class.  Harry and 
Ron had 2 electives -- Divination and Care of Magical Creatures.  
Hermione starts out taking all of the 5 electives, but then drops 2 
(Div and Muggle Studies) after her third year, so she had 3 
electives -- or ONE more class than Harry and Ron.  That means she 
should have taken 10 OWL exams, not 11.

IOW, Hermione received her 11 OWLs in:

1. Astronomy
2. Care Of Magical Creatures
3. Charms
4. DADA
5. Herbology
6. History of Magic
7. Potions
8. Transfiguration
9. Ancient Runes
10. Arithmancy
11. ?????





From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 22:10:58 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:10:58 -0000
Subject: We're famous! :)
In-Reply-To: <a6363246050715103558c45875@...>
Message-ID: <dbel1i+n5aq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, JoAnna Wahlund <jrwahlund at g...>
wrote:
> Our local paper did an article about us (me, my husband, and 
> daughter), and HP4GU is mentioned!
> http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=97633
> If registration is required, use the login homer at n..., and the 
> password homer (from bugmenot.com <http://bugmenot.com>).

And the photo demonstrates (as did the Bookstore party I attended --
how many Harry glasses in a plastic bag two feet high and more than a
foot wide and like half a foot thick?) that some people look better in
Harry glasses than others. You're one of the ones who look extra cute
in them in and your poor husband (no, it's not sex-linked, I saw boys
looking cute in them) is one of the ones who look silly in them. 





From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 22:17:41 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:17:41 -0000
Subject: FAQ Poll question finally answered
In-Reply-To: <a636324605071510287ce647b5@...>
Message-ID: <dbele5+t3gt@...>

> On 7/15/05, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
<< If you take into consideration the nature of the Patroni from James
and Harry, so similar that DD considered "Prongs rode again tonight,"
then either there's an important clue there or Jo is not being
entirely accurate that each individual Patronus is distinctive and
unique. Or maybe DD was lying again. >>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, JoAnna Wahlund <jrwahlund at g...>
wrote:
<< We know that James' Animagi form was a stag, but do we know that
his Patronus is one as well? Has JKR ever said that a wizard's
Patronus is also their Animagi form (or vice versa)? >>

I have no idea what James's Patronus was, but in general no two stags
are identical, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are.

By the way, SSSusan, I think I guessed Snape's Patronus is a Snake.





From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 22:53:59 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:53:59 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies:
  etymology
In-Reply-To: <dbekan+cioq@...>
References: <4.2.0.58.20050717183634.009b7ef0@...>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050717232916.009c64b0@...>

At 22:58 17/07/05 , Barry Arrowsmith replied to my previous:
>--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Richard <hp at p...> wrote:
> >
> > To insist that "Patronus" must have a plural of "Patroni" is to make
> > incorrect suppositions based on a fractured knowledge of Latin grammar.
>
>Possibly.
>But it looks neater and contains fewer letters. RSI, you know.

Yeah, but it reeks of showing oneself to be uninformed and verges on 
illiteracy. Which is never a good thing when discussing works of literature.

As for RSI, surely you of all people, Barry, shouldn't be going on about 
saving a few keystrokes? :-)

>And 'hor' - try something derived from hors de combat, hors d'oeurves or 
>the like. It means 'out' in this context, doesn't it?

Ah. Sorry. I knew I'd missed listing one of my ideas in my previous post 
(there were a couple of others I didn't mention, either, but things were 
getting long).

Yes, "hors" means "outside" or "beyond", and it sent my thinking in the 
opposite direction of the ideas I mentioned. Whilst the others were (I 
assumed) a method of "preserving" acts of cruelty, this one was to be a 
method of saving oneself *from* acts of cruelty, i.e.  putting oneself 
"outside the range of" an Unforgivable. I discounted this at the time 
because a) I doubt a Hogwarts teacher would refuse to discuss a method of 
protecting oneself against Dark activity; b) he'd ask the DADA teacher 
rather than the Potions prof.; c) while Riddle might be interested in 
protecting himself against Dark activity, he'd want something more pro-active.

I also discounted "hors" from my etymology of what Horcruxes *are* (as 
opposed to what I surmised they *might be* from their name), because they 
are clearly something you put your soul *into*; removing your soul seems 
easy enough (get a Dementor).





From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 23:25:54 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:25:54 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050717232916.009c64b0@...>
Message-ID: <dbepe2+t546@...>

GulPlum--

> Yes, "hors" means "outside" or "beyond", and it sent my thinking in 
the 
> opposite direction of the ideas I mentioned. Whilst the others were 
(I 
> assumed) a method of "preserving" acts of cruelty, this one was to 
be a 
> method of saving oneself *from* acts of cruelty, i.e.  putting 
oneself 
> "outside the range of" an Unforgivable. I discounted this at the 
time 
> because a) I doubt a Hogwarts teacher would refuse to discuss a 
method of 
> protecting oneself against Dark activity; b) he'd ask the DADA 
teacher 
> rather than the Potions prof.; c) while Riddle might be interested 
in 
> protecting himself against Dark activity, he'd want something more 
pro-active.
> 
> I also discounted "hors" from my etymology of what Horcruxes *are* 
(as 
> opposed to what I surmised they *might be* from their name), 
because they 
> are clearly something you put your soul *into*; removing your soul 
seems 
> easy enough (get a Dementor).

No, no, this makes immediate sense to me. Horcrux = hors (outside) 
crux (soul). The outside soul. The part stored out there. As opposed 
to the inside soul, the part you still have.

I like that. Good job, guys.

~Amanda





From dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 23:37:53 2005
From: dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid (dorbandb)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:37:53 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dbdq9f+gmbc@...>
Message-ID: <dbeq4h+mec7@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> wrote:
> s
> 
> 
> p
> 
> o
> 
> i
> 
> l
> 
> e
> 
> r
> 
> s
> 
> p
> 
> a
> 
> c
> 
> e
> Does anyone think the Amelia, Evangeline, Florean and Olivander death 
> or missing has anything to do with the 4 remaining pieces of LV's 
> soul?
> Fran


Brian
Maybe Fran.  Given what Kneasy said in another post:
"We have GG's sword, HH's cup, SS's jewel - those are three of the
Tarot suits.
The fourth is Wands."

I didn't know this, but it seems reasonable that if a wand is what we
seek, then Olivander is the man to kidnap...

...as to the other three...Canon says that Amelia and Evangeline are
dead.  That may or may not turn out to be true, but for now, it's
canon.  And, other than ensuring a lifetime of sweet treats, I can't
imagine what use V would have for Florean...jus' dunno.

Brian







From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 23:51:45 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:51:45 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dbeq4h+mec7@...>
Message-ID: <dbequh+7pr3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dorbandb" <dorband at u...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> 
wrote:
> > s
> > 
> > 
> > p
> > 
> > o
> > 
> > i
> > 
> > l
> > 
> > e
> > 
> > r
> > 
> > s
> > 
> > p
> > 
> > a
> > 
> > c
> > 
> > e
> > Does anyone think the Amelia, Evangeline, Florean and Olivander 
death 
> > or missing has anything to do with the 4 remaining pieces of LV's 
> > soul?
> > Fran
> 
> 
> Brian
> Maybe Fran.  Given what Kneasy said in another post:
> "We have GG's sword, HH's cup, SS's jewel - those are three of the
> Tarot suits.
> The fourth is Wands."
> 
> I didn't know this, but it seems reasonable that if a wand is what 
we
> seek, then Olivander is the man to kidnap...
> 
> ...as to the other three...Canon says that Amelia and Evangeline are
> dead.  That may or may not turn out to be true, but for now, it's
> canon.  And, other than ensuring a lifetime of sweet treats, I can't
> imagine what use V would have for Florean...jus' dunno.
> 
> Brian

Thinking a little more after the post, maybe JKR was setting the 
somber mood by showing an innocent death or four.
Fran





From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 23:55:45 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:55:45 -0000
Subject: Nothing But Spoilers, of course
Message-ID: <dber61+gsd5@...>

Does a post
about 
real-life
vocabulary 
words
qualify
as
spoiler
space?

Ginger wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_
old_crowd/message/2077 :

<< Thank you to my dear penguin. I now have a new word in my
vocabulary: fug. Who knew? OK, probably all of you, but isn't it
nice I have a place to learn these things? >>

Thanks to HBP and www.onelook.com, *I* have learned a new word, too:
SECATEURS is Brit for garden shears

How
about
one
about
CAPSLOCK!Harry
?

Mike Gray wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2080 :

<< Harry has managed to turn off the CAPS key  >>

My preparatory re-read of OoP pursuaded me that Harry was suffering
not only from leakage of LV's emotions and from adolescence, but also
from PTSD, and it is unrealistic for the PTSD part to just go away
overnight. It should either have gone away gradually or Harry should
have taken a potion to make it go away. In OoP, I felt that Hermione's
failure to recognize and name PTSD was unrealistic, but probably
Herself didn't recognize PTSD -- Herself seems to have a an
old-fashioned queasiness about psyches.

How
about
a
non-specific
announcement
that
I
AGREE
with
ALL
the
posts
so
far
about
Snape
?

Mooseming wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2072 :

<< Just to start the ball rolling how about Regulus Alphard Black? >>

Stupid Catlady never thought of that! I kept trying to squeeze the
names Ronald, Arthur, and Bilius into it....

Amy Z wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_o
ld_crowd/message/2114 :

<< Where is everyone getting Regulus's middle name from? >>

JKR has established by example that in her world, wizarding folk give
the oldest son the father's name as a middle name, the oldest daughter
the mother's name as a middle name, and another son the uncle's name
as a middle name (Ronald Bilius Weasley after Uncle Bilius who saw a
Grim and died). Sirius's Uncle Alphard was Regulus's Uncle Alphard.
QED.

Richard replied in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2151 to Kneasy :

<< I also discounted "hors" from my etymology of what Horcruxes *are*
(as opposed to what I surmised they *might be* from their name),
because they are clearly something you put your soul *into*; removing
your soul seems easy enough (get a Dementor). >>

I loved your etymology post, but suddenly it occurred to me that a
Horcrux is a way to take part of the wizard's soul 'hors de' danger.
Out of danger, out of the middle of things, out of the pain of being
alive.... 

Ack! I don't understand my own thoughts well enough to know whether
Amanda expressed them better than I did, or expressed a different
thought: 
<<  Horcrux = hors (outside)
crux (soul). The outside soul. The part stored out there. As opposed
to the inside soul, the part you still have. >>

Joywitch wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2148 :

<< IOW, Hermione received her 11 OWLs in:

1. Astronomy
2. Care Of Magical Creatures
3. Charms
4. DADA
5. Herbology
6. History of Magic
7. Potions
8. Transfiguration
9. Ancient Runes
10. Arithmancy
11. ????? >>

I posted something on the other list last week about Divination and
Arithmancy were only half-day exams, so if Ancient RUnes (that
Hermione took while Harry and Ron had Friday off) was also a half-day
exam, she could have taken another half-day exam that same day. Some
listies have suggested that she (and every other Muggle-born) could
ace the Muggle Studies OWL without taking the class (also I think
they'd fail for failing to give the erroneous answers taught in
class). I suggested that the wizarding world is so different from the
Muggle world that there could be an OWL exam that only prefects are
allowed to take (so Harry wouldn't know about it, and Ron doesn't seem
the type to take any more OWL exams than he HAS to), with questions
about leadership and discipline and authority. 

I had another idea, that one History of Magic exam tests for 2 OWLs,
one for the BC History of Magic and one for the AD History of Magic. I
don't know if seeing Harry's OWL results blows that out of the water,
or if it can be argued that they don't further depress people who
failed both by telling them that they missed TWO qualifications.

In any case, I don't understand how Hermione only got 11 OWLs when
Bill and Percy got 12. She has been established as an unusually
outstanding student that doesn't come along as often as every 4 years.
If they got both 2 History OWLs and Prefect OWL, why didn't she?

HAS
ANYONE
BOTHERED
TO
READ
THIS
FAR
?

Where did Kreachur go (and what did he do there) when Harry yelled:
"Get out of it!" at him and he immediately Disapparated? It SHOULD
have occured to someone to wonder!

*Why* did She have those DD & raspberry jam, Arthur & Molly scenes to
establish identity verification questions, and then never have anyone
verify, much less suspect, anyone's identity in the rest of the book,
no matter how OOC they were acting? I remain irritated at the Tonks
red herring -- I really thought she was someone else using Polyjuice
and THAT was why the imposter couldn't metamorphmage like she can; JKR
can make excuses for her gloominess and loss of abilities, but WHERE
DID HER CLUMSINESS GO? Tonks can't walk down the hall at 12 Grimmauld
Place without tripping over an unbrella stand and wakening Mrs Black,
but she can jump off a moving train at Hogsmeade and land on her feet?

Can some combination of SAD DENIAL and WOLFSTAR result in 'Tonks' is
Sirius using Polyjuice?





From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 23:57:19 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:57:19 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <dbepe2+t546@...>
Message-ID: <dber8v+jdsn@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:

> No, no, this makes immediate sense to me. Horcrux = hors (outside) 
> crux (soul). The outside soul. The part stored out there. As opposed 
> to the inside soul, the part you still have.
> 
> I like that. Good job, guys.

But crux (crux, crucis) is 'cross'.  It's not a word ever used in 
either Greek or Latin (it's Latin) for 'soul'.

Hmmmm.

-Nora is happy to be your resident classicist





From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 00:24:41 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:24:41 +0100
Subject: Britspeak
In-Reply-To: <dber61+gsd5@...>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050718010904.009853d0@...>

Ohh... My favourite (sic) topic on HP discussion lists 'cos I can show off! :-)

At 00:55 18/07/05 , Catlady \(Rita Prince Winston\) wrote:

>Thanks to HBP and www.onelook.com, *I* have learned a new word, too:
>SECATEURS is Brit for garden shears

Unless "garden shears" means something in US-speak which it doesn't in 
Brit-speak, they're not the same thing. In British English, garden shears 
are to all intents and purposes HUGE scissors with un-looped handles, i.e. 
long handles with long blades e.g.

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=2 
0001&langId=-1&catalogId=3701&productId=140423

used for trimming hedges and the like,

while secateurs (aka pruners) are short-bladed and usually short-handled, e.g.

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=2 
0001&langId=-1&catalogId=3701&productId=141516

and used for pruning bushes (such as roses, etc), where you want to get up 
close and personal, and cut individual branches. They also usually have 
spring-loaded blades (unlike shears), the spring offering more strength and 
recoil for dealing with harder/fatter branches.

(Thanks to one of the crappiest and most expensive British DIY chains for 
the pictures.)



From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 00:33:34 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:33:34 -0000
Subject: Nothing But Spoilers, of course
In-Reply-To: <dber61+gsd5@...>
Message-ID: <dbetcu+dn46@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:
> Does a post
> about 
> real-life
> vocabulary 
> words
> qualify
> as
> spoiler
> space?
> 
> Snip
> HAS
> ANYONE
> BOTHERED
> TO
> READ
> THIS
> FAR
> ?
> 
> Where did Kreachur go (and what did he do there) when Harry yelled:
> "Get out of it!" at him and he immediately Disapparated? It SHOULD
> have occured to someone to wonder!
> 
> *Why* did She have those DD & raspberry jam, Arthur & Molly scenes 
to
> establish identity verification questions, and then never have 
anyone
> verify, much less suspect, anyone's identity in the rest of the 
book,
> no matter how OOC they were acting? I remain irritated at the Tonks
> red herring -- I really thought she was someone else using Polyjuice
> and THAT was why the imposter couldn't metamorphmage like she can; 
JKR
> can make excuses for her gloominess and loss of abilities, but WHERE
> DID HER CLUMSINESS GO? Tonks can't walk down the hall at 12 
Grimmauld
> Place without tripping over an unbrella stand and wakening Mrs 
Black,
> but she can jump off a moving train at Hogsmeade and land on her 
feet?
> 
> Can some combination of SAD DENIAL and WOLFSTAR result in 'Tonks' is
> Sirius using Polyjuice?

I was just going to post something on this on another thread but 
decided against it.  Since you brought it up...I think there was a 
polyjuiced!Tonks and she was Cissy.  P!T imperio'd Rosmerta, and P!T 
was who Harry ran into in the castle. Cissy was checking up on her 
only son!

Fran





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 00:38:38 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:38:38 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <dber8v+jdsn@...>
Message-ID: <dbetme+kkej@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > No, no, this makes immediate sense to me. Horcrux = hors 
(outside) 
> > crux (soul). The outside soul. The part stored out there. As 
opposed 
> > to the inside soul, the part you still have.
> > 
> > I like that. Good job, guys.
> 
> But crux (crux, crucis) is 'cross'.  It's not a word ever used in 
> either Greek or Latin (it's Latin) for 'soul'.
> 
> Hmmmm.
> 
> -Nora is happy to be your resident classicist

How about something like, extending your life into immortality is a 
cross to bear. Splitting your soul into 7 pieces has to have some 
consequences.
Fran





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 01:03:14 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:03:14 -0000
Subject: Nothing But Spoilers, of course
In-Reply-To: <dber61+gsd5@...>
Message-ID: <dbev4i+gm2k@...>

Spoiler space?  Who wants a space full of spoilers?

Well, all right, then...


The bad guy in Scooby-Doo would have gotten away with it if it hadn't 
been for those medling kids...and their dog too.

Sam-I-Am convinced his friend to eat the green eggs and ham.

The wolf couldn't blow down the third little pig's house.

Quirrel was the one after the stone, not Snape.

Darth Vader was Luke's father.

Marilyn Monroe is living in Cleveland with her retired-plumber 
husband and 34 cats.  (Got that out of a tabloid.)

Ok, enough of that.

> Joywitch wrote:
> << IOW, Hermione received her 11 OWLs in:
> 
> 1. Astronomy
> 2. Care Of Magical Creatures
> 3. Charms
> 4. DADA
> 5. Herbology
> 6. History of Magic
> 7. Potions
> 8. Transfiguration
> 9. Ancient Runes
> 10. Arithmancy
> 11. ????? >>

Rita replied: (major snippage)
Some
> listies have suggested that she (and every other Muggle-born) could
> ace the Muggle Studies OWL without taking the class (also I think
> they'd fail for failing to give the erroneous answers taught in
> class). 

Ginger guesses:  

Having taken a year of it and gotten a 320% on her exam, perhaps 
Hermione realized all she had to do was read the book, and 
regurgitate the answers they wanted to hear.  So she read the books 
for light reading, and sat the exam.  

Worked for me in English classes where the teacher would give *their* 
interpretation of a book and, on the exam, ask "what do you think the 
author meant by...?" meaning, of course, "what do I think..."  If you 
just spit back what they had said, they gave you credit.  If you gave 
what you actually thought, you were wrong.  I'm sure Hermione had no 
trouble figuring that out.

Rita continues:
> Where did Kreachur go (and what did he do there) when Harry yelled:
> "Get out of it!" at him and he immediately Disapparated? It SHOULD
> have occured to someone to wonder!

Ginger:  Oy!  She got us again!  Good catch.

Ginger, off to think on the 7th Hor-thingie.





From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 01:25:03 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:25:03 +0100
Subject: HBP: misc. observations (SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050717164513.009cb5c0@...>

This message was meant to have been my first post-HBP contribution and my 
etymology post started off as a section here, but it got too long and so I 
made it a separate message. In lieu of spoiler space, a few words about my 
acquisition and reading of the new book.

I posted when I was leaving the house that I was afraid that there'd be far 
fewer people waiting at midnight than Birmingham's 2 million population 
would warrant. I'm happy to report that I was wrong. I took some photos, 
but they've not worked very well, so I'm not putting them up, but when I 
got to the central shopping area at about 11.40 there was a queue of about 
300 outside the main Watersone's (going half-way round the block), about 
200 outside the second Waterstone's (these two shops are about 100 yards 
apart), about 100 outside Borders (or rather, the mall in which it is 
located) and well over 150 people outside WH Smith's (my own destination). 
I joined the queue, and by the time the shop opened 15 mins later, there 
were as many people behind me as in  front of me! There were huge whoops 
and applause as the first person in each shop walked out with their books; 
I got mine at around 12.40 and started reading immediately, while walking home.

Another thing I feared was that I'd be as disappointed as I was with OotP 
and wouldn't be sufficiently motivated to read the book through in one 
sitting: wrong again. The mound of sarnies was long gone when I was still 
up at 7.30 with about 150 pages to go (I'm not a great speed-reader and I 
deliberately didn't want to rush this one anyway) but despite popping more 
Pro Pluses* than is probably good for me, I could feel my eyes closing too 
much and my concentration wondering (I think I'm getting old; as recently 
as a couple of months ago, I was able to stay up for 48 hours straight 
working on a project that needed completing). I decided to go to bed for a 
few hours, and woke up again at 11.30, made a big pot of coffee and resumed 
reading. I was done by about 3pm but family life took over and I've not 
really had much time to think about the book since then.

http://www.mypharmacy.co.uk/alternative_medicines/medicines/p/pro_plus/pro_p 
lus.htm

Oh well, I think that's enough for spoiler space coverage, so down to 
various observations in no particular order. Some of these may have been 
raised already, although I shall attempt to avoid repeating what others 
have said.

I shocked myself about an hour into reading with the realisation that JKR 
(or her editors) have taken on board one of the major criticisms of OotP on 
board, and laid off the adverbs. Over the next few pages, I was actually 
taking mental note of the adverbs I encountered and counted only two on 
each page. I don't know about anyone else, but this made the book a 
considerably more satisfying read. Even so, there were a few silly ones 
(which I remember noticing, but can't cite right now).

Funniest line: "There's no need to call me 'sir', professor". (p. 171 UK 
ed). That had me in hysterics, and still makes me LOL every time I think 
about it. If they cut it from the movie version, I shall personally 
throttle the screenwriter.

Did I miss something, or is there an editorial non-sequitur? A few pages 
into ch. 14 (Felix Felicitis), just after an off-the-page Transfiguration 
lesson, the Gryffindor common room is full of Hermione's canaries. Where 
did they come from (apart from Hermione's wand)? (UK ed p. 266)

Again, did I miss something, or did the spelling of Phineas change halfway 
through HBP? I didn't take notes while reading and can't find it right now, 
but I could swear that I saw someone called "Finius" mentioned towards the 
end of the book (or maybe I was just getting tired).


A few unsolved mysteries/unanswered questions:
How *did* Dumbledore get his arm withered/blackened/hurt/whatever? He went 
to great trouble throughout the book to tell us it's a tale worth telling, 
and we never got it!

Why is Lucius still in prison, given the Dementors have left? What's 
keeping him there, and why haven't the DEs (with or without Voldie's 
permission) got him out yet?

What was Draco doing in Myrtle's bathroom? My immediate suspicion was that 
he was trying to get into the Chamber of Secrets, but assuming that 
JKR  meant us to think that, she never gave us a plausible reason for his 
being there. It's miles from the RoR - if he wanted to bawl, why not do it 
in the RoR?

Snape. Ah, there's a topic, so I'll keep it short. For the record, IMO he's 
on the side of the angels. So much of the continuing narrative is about our 
(readers') perceptions not being the same as Harry's, although we're told 
everything he sees (at least, everything important). Someone mentioned 
along the way (it may have been on the Hog's Head list rather than here) 
that Harry has to be right about Snape at least once in the course of the 
books. Well, as far as we know, he has been right once: when he surmised 
that Snape's job in the Order is to spy on the DEs.

Snape 2. There's been some discussion about when he came back to Dumbledore 
("back"? Does that mean he started off as "Dumbledore's man", to quote 
Sluggy, then became a DE, and then returned?) and why Dumbledore trusts him 
implicitly. A few people have mentioned Snape's "remorse". However, the 
quote is: "I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the 
reason that he returned" (UK ed. p. 513). This is NOT the reason why 
Dumbledore trusts him, though. For starters, there's Dumbledore's (and 
JKR's) favourite get-out clause: "I believe". Dumbledore isn't going to 
have his life (quite literally, it seems) and his mission depend on an "I 
believe". He is *certain* that Snape is loyal, and we're no closer to 
knowing why he's so certain than we were when we first set eyed on the 
greasy-haired git. Sure, we have ideas and theories, but they're not even 
"I believe"s. Most of them are "I hope"s or "I dream"s.

Talking of "I believe" (and variants), next item (not about Snape, sorry). 
:-) UK ed. 531, in the cave:  "I can only conclude that this potion is 
supposed to be drunk." [...]  "Yes, I think so: Only by drinking it can I 
empty the basin and see what lies in its depths." I know Hermione has said 
that wizards aren't good at logic, but Dumbledore has made a HUGE leap 
there which I can't really follow. Why does he conclude that the liquid 
needs necessarily to be *drunk*? Why can't it just be spilled out over the 
floor? He gives no indication of knowing the first thing about the liquid 
itself (although he explains how it's being protected), yet he immediately 
assumes that it has to be drunk. Why not conjure a bucket as well as the 
goblet, and decant the liquid into the bucket to see what happens before 
risking his life (why's he so sure that its effects won't be 
instantaneous?)  on drinking the damn stuff?

The message from R.A.B. (UK ed. p. 569) : whoever it is (I also immediately 
suspected Regulus, and assume we're all right - when we've had initials to 
date, we've had a good idea who they belonged to) must have been a 
Voldy-supporter, if not a fully-fledged DE. The only person outside those 
ranks to have referred to the "Dark Lord" is Trelawney, who wasn't quite 
herself when she said it. If it was Regulus, then Sirius is wrong about yet 
another person. OotP: "Regulus] panicked about what he was being asked to 
do and tried to back out." It seems like he did a lot more than "try to 
back out". It looks like he's the first person to have taken positive steps 
to limit Voldy's power.

Am I only person who suspected (sod that, I didn't "suspect", I *knew*) 
immediately that Harry's ruse with giving Ron the Felix Felicis was just 
that - a ruse? I don't recall my thought processes at the time, but it just 
seemed so downright *dishonourable* after the admonitions about sporting 
events for Harry to consider doing it for real. And as he said, it was a 
question of confidence, not ability.

And talking of Ron, next item: if you ask me, Ron's all fixed up for all 
three of his dreams in the Mirror of Erised to come true: Head Boy (with 
Draco out of the way, and Harry not going back to Hogwarts full time - 
although I'm sure that he'll turn up at various points in his Book Seven 
adventures - there are no other candidates), Captain of the Gryffindor 
Quidditch team (he'll be the longest-serving team member!), so that leaves 
the House Cup: will there be a House Cup competition, given that probably 
half the pupils won't be back, and the Gryffindor hour-glass is wrecked? Or 
will the remaining pupils be re-sorted into fewer than four Houses?

Furthermore, assuming Minerva becomes full-time Headmistress, who takes 
over as Head of Gryffindor? And will Sluggy be back as Head of Slytherin?

And talking of the late Headmaster, a couple of observations: first, 
regarding the AK which (supposedly) offed him. OK, we had a green bolt of 
light (canon thus far limits green flashes to AK), but the spell picked him 
off the ground and threw him over the parapet (he was slumping towards the 
floor at the time). While this is the first "on-screen" AK (with Cedric, we 
only had audio, no picture), the impression given was that he just slumped 
to the ground rather than being tossed into the air. (Note also what we 
know of the Riddles). This sounds definitely fishy to me, or is JKR 
suffering movie contamination (viz. Expelliarmuses in both CoS and PoA)?

Second, regarding the funeral. While we have no internal canon for it, JKR 
is on record with the info that Aberforth, Albus's dear bro, is the Hog's 
Head barkeep. Why didn't he show up for the funeral? Surely he'd have had a 
place, and given one of the speeches?

Which leads me on to AKs: I remain unconvinced, despite JKR's best efforts, 
that whilst Voldy had no reason to kill Lily, he spared her only because he 
didn't "need" her to die for his Hor-thingy. He doesn't seem to be bothered 
about how many AKs he casts, and my opinion hasn't changed that he'd have 
been better off dropping her on the spot, instead of talking to her.

And on that cheery note, I think I'll finish for now. I'm sure I'll have 
other thoughts, but in the meantime, it's 3am and time I went to bed.

--
Richard, who's surprised at the percentage of his Sunday he's spent talking 
HP instead of enjoying the sunshine.




From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 02:45:13 2005
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:45:13 -0000
Subject: HBP: misc. observations (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050717164513.009cb5c0@...>
Message-ID: <dbf53p+e1u4@...>

spacy spacy spacy spacy







more spacy spacy spacy







--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Richard <hp at p...> wrote:
> Again, did I miss something, or did the spelling of Phineas change 
halfway 
> through HBP? I didn't take notes while reading and can't find it 
right now, 
> but I could swear that I saw someone called "Finius" mentioned 
towards the 
> end of the book (or maybe I was just getting tired).

While you were drooping your eyes may have been reading "Filius" 
as "Finius" (assuming that there isn't a typo in the UK version--I 
bought the US book and am still waiting for my UK version to 
arrive).  Filius is Prof. Flitwick's first name.


> What was Draco doing in Myrtle's bathroom? My immediate suspicion 
was that 
> he was trying to get into the Chamber of Secrets, but assuming 
that 
> JKR  meant us to think that, she never gave us a plausible reason 
for his 
> being there. It's miles from the RoR - if he wanted to bawl, why 
not do it 
> in the RoR?

He wasn't in Myrtle's bathroom; Myrtle was in a boy's bathroom.  
Harry went in this bathroom before he found Draco in there and it 
seemed pretty clear to me that the boy Myrtle said she'd seen crying 
was Draco, so I wasn't surprised to see him in there later.  Part of 
Harry's discussion with Myrtle concerned what she was doing in that 
bathroom when it wasn't her usual haunt (which can be used here 
literally, for once, in stead of figuratively :D).

--Barb, emerging from lurkdom







From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 02:49:41 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:49:41 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies:
  etymology
In-Reply-To: <dbepe2+t546@...>
References: <4.2.0.58.20050717232916.009c64b0@...>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050718032906.00941d60@...>

At 00:25 18/07/05 , Amanda Geist wrote:

<snip my exposition>

>No, no, this makes immediate sense to me. Horcrux = hors (outside)
>crux (soul). The outside soul. The part stored out there. As opposed
>to the inside soul, the part you still have.

Yes, but the Horcrux is the container, not the soul itself (or part 
thereof). Sluggy himself provides the definition: "A Horcrux is the word 
used for an object in which a person has concealed part of their soul." (UK 
p. 464).

It therefore doesn't make sense for its name to be based on any kind of 
"outside"; "inside": "horreum" (place of storage) seems to fit the bill 
perfectly (despite the double R).

My issue remains with JKR's massive leap of anti-etymology in making "crux" 
mean soul. OK, the dictionary might offer "central point or feature", but 
from there to "soul" is, as I said before, a huge leap. Why not build a 
word on the perfectly adaptable Latin/Greek "anima", or even Greek 
alternative "psyche"? (the latter would have had readers confusing it with 
"psycho" in its modern tabloid sense, which I think would've been fun).

I'm not entirely sure if what pisses me off most is that I couldn't guess 
it, that I lost the best part of an hour thinking about it - time which 
would've been better spent reading, or that it simply doesn't make sense.

Whichever is true, it certainly is a major irritant with me. And it's a 
silly portmanteau word to boot.







From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 03:13:23 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:13:23 -0000
Subject: Were HP and DD wrong? (spoilers, of course)
Message-ID: <dbf6oj+iv0p@...>

PUT IN THE SPOILER SPACE, THEY SAID.

SO FOLKS WON'T KNOW (DELETE) IS DEAD.

THEY MUSN'T KNOW ABOUT THE (THING)

OR OTHER INFO WE MAY BRING.

IF YOU'VE NOT READ THE WHOLE DARN BOOK,

STOP RIGHT NOW! REFUSE TO LOOK!

FOR WE ALL KNOW THE HALF-BLOOD PRINCE

IS NONE OTHER THAN MADAM PINCE.

HA. SERVES YOU RIGHT FOR READING THIS FAR IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE 
BOOK YET.



I have a question about how Horcruxes work. Ok, I have a zillion 
questions, but I'll only go into a few of them here.

If one has Horcruxes made, and is killed, does the part of the soul 
in that person die? Or does one of the Horcruxes empty itself of a 
soul? In other words, when LV was killed at GH, did a part of his 
soul that was in him die or one that was in a Horcrux? In either 
case aren't we down to 6, unless he has made another to replace the 
one he used then? 

What happens to the empty Horcrux? Is it destroyed? Does it revert 
back to being just an artifact? Does one have to have it on one's 
person? Is a spell required to activate it? To reunite it with the 
body? 

We saw what happens if the body is destroyed. You wander around 
Albania for a decade. If the body is still intact, can one just hop 
back into it with another part of one's soul? In the case of 
numerous Horcruxes, is there a pecking order as to which one gets to 
take over? 

On a related thought, could a Horcrux be in the Room of Requirement? 
Perhaps RR hid something there during a time when she thought the 
Muggles would storm the castle, and left it there for safekeeping. 
If TR found it, and took it along when he killed his parents, and 
used it, he may have felt that the RofR was the safest place for it 
and put it back. He could have easily checked on it during his 
Quirrel days, but what he needed then was a body, not an extra soul, 
so he left it put.

Can an object be transfigured when it is a Horcrux? Could Rowena's 
whatever have been transfigured by TR into the wig on the bust, or 
something like that? 

Ginger, wondering How many horns can a Slughorn slug if a Slughorn 
can slug horns.






From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 03:22:36 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:22:36 -0000
Subject: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <dbehdi+3qud@...>
Message-ID: <dbf79s+5c3b@...>

Joywitch:

<<I found a potential Flint in this scene, too.  Trelawney says that 
she saw Snape come in.  That means that she was out of her trance -- 
therefore she had spoken the whole prophecy.  But if Snape was still 
in the vicinity, doesn't that necessarily mean that Snape heard the 
WHOLE prophecy?  We know that the person who told Voldie only heard 
half of it.  There's 2 explanations I can think of <snip> >>

I can think of a third.  Trelawney wouldn't want word to get out that 
she can't remember what happens during certain periods of time.  She 
must have been in the trance for the entire prophecy - Harry 
witnessed her making the 2nd real prophecy, and when she "woke up," 
she couldn't remember any of it.  In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that 
Trelawney doesn't appreciate how great her danger is because she 
doesn't know she made the prophecy.  So I don't think she ever came 
out of the trance (at least, until the prophecy was completed).  I 
think someone told Trelawney that Snape had been crouching at the 
keyhole, and over the years, Trelawney has either started to believe 
that she actually witnessed it, or has concocted the story she told 
Harry so she doesn't have to admit she didn't witness the events 
first hand.

~Phyllis





From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 03:25:27 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:25:27 -0000
Subject: Spoilers for their own sake...Re: Were HP and DD wrong? (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbf6oj+iv0p@...>
Message-ID: <dbf7f7+kgju@...>

I nominate Ginger for the best spoiler content yet. I've started to 
read these things for their spoiler filler.

(reads down)...and her sig line

~Amandageist

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" 
<quigonginger at y...> wrote:
> PUT IN THE SPOILER SPACE, THEY SAID.
> 
> SO FOLKS WON'T KNOW (DELETE) IS DEAD.
> 
> THEY MUSN'T KNOW ABOUT THE (THING)
> 
> OR OTHER INFO WE MAY BRING.
> 
> IF YOU'VE NOT READ THE WHOLE DARN BOOK,
> 
> STOP RIGHT NOW! REFUSE TO LOOK!
> 
> FOR WE ALL KNOW THE HALF-BLOOD PRINCE
> 
> IS NONE OTHER THAN MADAM PINCE.
> 
> HA. SERVES YOU RIGHT FOR READING THIS FAR IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE 
> BOOK YET.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question about how Horcruxes work. Ok, I have a zillion 
> questions, but I'll only go into a few of them here.
> 
> If one has Horcruxes made, and is killed, does the part of the soul 
> in that person die? Or does one of the Horcruxes empty itself of a 
> soul? In other words, when LV was killed at GH, did a part of his 
> soul that was in him die or one that was in a Horcrux? In either 
> case aren't we down to 6, unless he has made another to replace the 
> one he used then? 
> 
> What happens to the empty Horcrux? Is it destroyed? Does it revert 
> back to being just an artifact? Does one have to have it on one's 
> person? Is a spell required to activate it? To reunite it with the 
> body? 
> 
> We saw what happens if the body is destroyed. You wander around 
> Albania for a decade. If the body is still intact, can one just hop 
> back into it with another part of one's soul? In the case of 
> numerous Horcruxes, is there a pecking order as to which one gets 
to 
> take over? 
> 
> On a related thought, could a Horcrux be in the Room of 
Requirement? 
> Perhaps RR hid something there during a time when she thought the 
> Muggles would storm the castle, and left it there for safekeeping. 
> If TR found it, and took it along when he killed his parents, and 
> used it, he may have felt that the RofR was the safest place for it 
> and put it back. He could have easily checked on it during his 
> Quirrel days, but what he needed then was a body, not an extra 
soul, 
> so he left it put.
> 
> Can an object be transfigured when it is a Horcrux? Could Rowena's 
> whatever have been transfigured by TR into the wig on the bust, or 
> something like that? 
> 
> Ginger, wondering How many horns can a Slughorn slug if a Slughorn 
> can slug horns.





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 03:30:37 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:30:37 -0000
Subject: HBP: misc. observations (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050717164513.009cb5c0@...>
Message-ID: <dbf7ot+diqn@...>


Richard wrote:

ABOUT HIS HBP-BUYING EXPERIENCES IN LEIU OF SPOILER SPACE.  

NIFTY IDEA, IF YOU ASK ME.

I SHAN'T DO THE SAME.

BUT IT WAS AN INTERESTING READ.

SPOILER SPACE DONE.


Richard:
> Did I miss something, or is there an editorial non-sequitur? A few 
pages 
> into ch. 14 (Felix Felicitis), just after an off-the-page 
Transfiguration 
> lesson, the Gryffindor common room is full of Hermione's canaries. 
Where 
> did they come from (apart from Hermione's wand)? (UK ed p. 266)

Ginger: I only caught that on my second read.  Hermione had left the 
Common Room.  Harry went looking for her in an empty classroom.  He 
found her there practicing her bird spell.  Then Ron and Lav came in.

Hope that is what you were talking about.

Richard also asked:
> Second, regarding the funeral. While we have no internal canon for 
it, JKR 
> is on record with the info that Aberforth, Albus's dear bro, is the 
Hog's 
> Head barkeep. Why didn't he show up for the funeral? Surely he'd 
have had a 
> place, and given one of the speeches?

Ginger:  He was at the funeral.  He didn't give a speech, but he was 
there.  I'm sorry I only have the US edition.  It's p. 641.  

There is a long paragraph listing the people who were there.  Towards 
the end it says: "...and some people Harry only knew by sight, such 
as the barman of the Hog's Head and the witch who pushed the trolley 
on the Hogwarts Expess."  

Hope that helps you find it.  Perhaps Harry wonders in the next book 
why Aberforth wasn't there?  Maybe they meet?

Ginger, who is really glad she has this place to post.  Thanks for 
inviting me.





From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 03:42:11 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:42:11 -0000
Subject: Were HP and DD wrong? (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbf6oj+iv0p@...>
Message-ID: <dbf8ej+plbn@...>

Ginger:

> If one has Horcruxes made, and is killed, does the part of the soul 
> in that person die? Or does one of the Horcruxes empty itself of a 
> soul? In other words, when LV was killed at GH, did a part of his 
> soul that was in him die or one that was in a Horcrux? In either 
> case aren't we down to 6, unless he has made another to replace the 
> one he used then? 

Well, I don't really know for sure, but I'll take a guess.  I would 
imagine LV would want to keep the magic number (7) of Horcruxes 
available at all times.  So, when the AK meant for Harry rebounded on 
LV, he did, in fact, lose the piece of his soul that he was still 
possessing in his body (LV admits so in the graveyard in GoF "I was 
nothing more than spirit" or something like that).  Which would mean 
that he would, in fact, need to use up one of his Horcruxes to 
replace the part-soul he lost then.  But I would imagine he'd replace 
that Horcrux to maintain the 7 he thinks are so important.  We 
haven't any idea how many pieces you can shred your soul into; all it 
takes (apparently) is the willingness to kill someone, and LV has 
certainly killed enough people to be able to make loads of Horcruxes.

~Phyllis
who wonders why Dumbledore neglected to note that the Sorting Hat is 
a Gryffindor relic and might, therefore, contain a Horcrux





From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 17:18:50 2005
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Charme)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:18:50 -0400
Subject: HBP First impressions - SPOILERS within!
Message-ID: <011e01c58af3$99cd6cf0$6701a8c0@...>

Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space

>Aberforth's Goat wrote:
>My take is that Snape has been definitively outed as a GOOD
>GUY - and a good guy who is going through hell. He killed Dumbledore
>partly because (as Pippin points out) Dumbledore was already dying -
>even more to keep Draco from becoming a murderer - and finally
>Dumbledore had already ordered him to do so.

Charme:

Hasn't it been just a fabulous weekend??? :)

My 2 cents:  Perhaps DD trusted Snape because DD, being the clever old man 
he is, he had Snape make an Unbreakable Promise with him. Judging by what I 
perceive to be Bellatrix's astonished reaction to the fact Snape would do 
one with Narcissa and Ron's statements about how his parents reacted when 
the twins tried to get him to do one when he was young,  I think they are 
both uncommon and intensely personal. Hence why DD might not say why he 
trusted Snape, just that he does.

Speculation of course, but I suspect the potion that DD drank in the cave 
(and ooouu didn't he drink a lot of it) when retrieving the locket is the 
Draught of the Living Death. I do not know that given the amount of time 
between when DD drank it and Snape arrived that the tower that Snape could 
provide an antidote.

The most poignant sentence of the whole book for me:

""I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger 
despite the freezing water. "I am with you."



Charme







From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 03:49:34 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:49:34 -0000
Subject: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <dbf79s+5c3b@...>
Message-ID: <dbf8se+no64@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" <erisedstraeh2002 at y...> 
wrote:

> I can think of a third.  Trelawney wouldn't want word to get out that 
> she can't remember what happens during certain periods of time. 

Like when she's been hitting the cooking sherry pretty hard.

--AZC

-------------------------------------------
Oh, come and stir my cauldron,
And if you do it right,
I'll boil you up some hot strong love
To keep you warm tonight.   --HP and the HBP





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 03:50:31 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:50:31 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Were HP and DD wrong? (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbf8ej+plbn@...>
References: <dbf6oj+iv0p@...> <dbf8ej+plbn@...>
Message-ID: <a636324605071720506d63e368@...>

> 
> 
> 
> ~Phyllis
> who wonders why Dumbledore neglected to note that the Sorting Hat is 
> a Gryffindor relic and might, therefore, contain a Horcrux


Do you really think that Dumbledore would have ever let the Sorting Hat out 
of his sight? Moreover, if TMR had gotten ahold of it and made a Horcrux 
(unlikely, as it seemed the diary was a "practice" horcrux and the only one 
he made during school), I think DD would notice, or at least sense the Dark 
Magic eminating from it. Also, you'd think that the Hat, if indeed a 
Horcrux, would be affected by housing some of LV's "soul" - it'd probably 
try and not sort the Mudbloods, for one, nor would it have helped Harry in 
the CoS, for another.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 03:56:43 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:56:43 +1000
Subject: HBP whip-round
Message-ID: <20050718035643.GB29882@...>

Spoiler Nazi: No spoiler space for you!

Spoiler Penguin: Eek eeky eek eek eek!

Spoiler Robot Chicken: (clucks the theme tune to Dawn of the Dead)

Spoiler Happy Tree Friend: Splat!

Spoiler Meddlesome Kid: Ala peanut butter sandwiches!

Spoiler CAPSLOCK!Harry: WHY DO YOU ALL STAND AROUND EXPECTING *ME* TO SAVE
YOU?! I'M TIRED OF DOING EVERYTHING AROUND HERE, I'M GOING AWAY SOMEWHERE
WHERE I CAN BE REALLY REALLY MAD ABOUT EVERYTHING AND THEN YOU'LL BE SORRY!	

Spoiler Exhaustion: Must...keep...typing...spoilers...or...uhnnnhh..


Catlady:
I remain irritated at the Tonks red herring -- I really thought she was
someone else using Polyjuice and THAT was why the imposter couldn't
metamorphmage like she can; JKR can make excuses for her gloominess and loss
of abilities, but WHERE DID HER CLUMSINESS GO? Tonks can't walk down the hall
at 12 Grimmauld Place without tripping over an unbrella stand and wakening Mrs
Black, but she can jump off a moving train at Hogsmeade and land on her feet?

This was a DING! moment that went horribly wrong with that weak shippy
explaination. Consider that JKR had *just* posted her FAQ poll answer with the
specific phrase: "Patronuses are unique to each wizard". Nowhere does she say
"except when they fall in love". It does NOT compute, and I'm glad someone
else is jarred by it.


voicelady:
Because Dumbledore's not dead. Not really. He needed to have Harry *see* Snape
"kill" him. The ministry and the Order are now predispossed to believe Harry.
And then there was the whole very public ceremony of the funeral. *Everyone*
now believes that Dumbledore, the only wizard that Voldemort ever feared, is
dead. It also cements Snape in further with Voldemort. V will trust Snape even
more now. And Snape is still serving DD. I hate him, always have, but he is
one of the good guys. DD will still be running the show.

Whether DD is dead or not, he wanted Harry to see *something*, to witness. It
is puzzling that DD would knowlingly let Harry draw the *wrong* conclusion
about Snape (as he kept telling him through Books 1-6) again. If Snape is an
unwilling actor, what the dickens is the play DD wrote? The suggestion that DD
is feigning death or will somehow resurrect is a bit *too* allegorical for me.
I lean more to Kneasy's view; DD doesn't want Snape interrupted by Harry's
heroics and as a witness that the Ministry cannot impeach.

The Ministry is fascinating: JKR is clearly showing they're as power-hungry as
Voldemort, and as clueless about Harry. Like the wizard-in-the-street
perception about the Chosen One needs a rider of "and his GREAT PALS, the
Ministry of Magic" to save their collective cauldrons. I'm surprised they
didn't punish Arthur rather than promote him. How is Scrimgeour any more
capable than Fudge other than a stab at PR?


Joywitch:
I found a potential Flint in this scene, too.  Trelawney says that
she saw Snape come in.  That means that she was out of her trance --
therefore she had spoken the whole prophecy.  But if Snape was still
in the vicinity, doesn't that necessarily mean that Snape heard the
WHOLE prophecy?  We know that the person who told Voldie only heard
half of it.

Unless Snape is a Memory Modification in case anyone's looking? Which would
mean someone *else* was the eavesdropper. Let's see, who might be good at
that? Someone who thought it a good idea to keep Sybil at Hogwarts out of
harm's way? Someone like...Dumbledore?


Ginger, wondering How many horns can a Slughorn slug if a Slughorn
can slug horns.

The answer is, of course, Umbrage. I predict wedding bells.

ewe2, penguin of Vooommm!

-- 
sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me.



 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 




-- 
sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me.




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 04:05:31 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:05:31 -0000
Subject: HBP: More first thoughts
In-Reply-To: <dbe4rp+369g@...>
Message-ID: <dbf9qb+sqt4@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> 
wrote:
I'LL FOLLOW SUIT AND USE MY RANT 

ABOUT BORDERS TO FILL THE SPACE.

I JUST HAPPENED TO BE SAUNTERING BY

THE LOCAL SHOP AT 5:30 AM ON THE 

MORNING OF THE 15TH, WHICH HAPPILY 

MADE ME FIRST IN LINE TO RECEIVE 

THE TICKET TO RECEIVE THE BOOK AT

MIDNIGHT.  A LOVELY LINE COLLECTED 

SHORTLY THEREAFTER.  IN DUE TIME,

THE MANAGER CAME OUT AND BEGAN HANDING 

OUT TICKETS.  I GOT NUMBER 25.  SHE SAID 

NUMBERS 1-24 WERE RESERVED FOR "KIDS ONLY" 

PRIZES.  QUITE A HANDSOME GESTURE, NO?

AS MIDNIGHT NEARED, I CHATTED WITH THE 

PEOPLE IN FRONT OF ME, INQUIRING AS TO THE 

CONTEST THEY MAY HAVE WON.  MOST WERE NOT

CHILDREN, NARY A ONE WON ANYTHING, BUT ALL 

WERE FRIENDS AND FAMILY OF BORDERS EMPLOYEES.

FINI

Neil:
I'm pondering the idea that Dumbledore didn't die, but I'm not sure
if anything would be gained by feigning death and making Snape a
murderer and #2 on Harry's hitlist, so I'm still mulling that over.
I think the AK and other evidence of Dumbledore's death (the
portrait in the office, the flaming funereal floorshow) could have
been faked. It seems likely that he was giving Snape non-verbal
instructions just before he was hit with the curse. He seemed to
want to be killed by Snape if by anyone.

Talisman, trying to see how many times she can say "Wilkie 
Twycross,"  in quick succession, and imagining Rowling typing it up 
with fiendish glee. 

Neil, I agree with your suspicions that DD's death may not be quite 
as it seems.

This may be partly because I had "fake death" on my mind, even 
before the release of HBP.  What with the "who will die" drumbeat 
starting up again, and given Rowling's delight in goosing the fans.

Then, after Spinner's End, I was expecting Rowling to employ the 
Draught of Death in some fashion that would save Snape, Draco, and 
Harry (whom I first thought was the target) from the otherwise 
seemingly unbreakable triangle of death.

I certainly do join with those who see that DD and Snape were 
working in concert.  I agree that the argument was relevant to 
Snape's desire not to have to "kill" DD, which suggests that he also 
believes he did it.

[Still, the fact that only DD and Snape are in on the death pact is 
a clear demonstration of the level of trust DD has for Snape, 
though, of course, there are security issues.  Most, if not all, of 
the benefit is derived from peoples' belief that it happened.]

Then there is the fact that everything DD showed Harry, including 
the AK on the ramparts, was designed for the purpose of furthering 
the desired developments in Harry.  

Clearly DD wanted it to happen, and he wanted Harry to see it. 
Therefore, it would not be to DD's purposes to tell Harry that Snape 
was only following orders.

Though DD certainly seemed to be dying by inches as he slid down the 
wall, though the AK may well have been legit, and though the funeral 
was lovely, there is plenty of room for ruse.

We've seen that AKs can be blocked--if not by spells then by 
physical objects.  A bit of body armor under the robes (shades of 
mithril) would suffice. 

The statue-shattering force of an AK would heave you over the 
ramparts (all to the good--where you'd levitate down in the 
darkness) and a swig of Draught of Death would cap the whole thing 
off.  A few hours later you could wake up, conjure up a body 
facsimile, and be about your business. 

The fact that DD offers to fake Draco and Narcissa's deaths in order 
to help them escape LV, is not unnoticed.  It definitely shows DD 
has thought these things out, and puts the idea right at the scene.  
Rowling could point to this for absolution if fans cry foul, later.

So was DD under the robe at the funeral?  Maybe, maybe not.

Even if he was in there, if he was not "really" dead, we may find 
that he is more like a Phoenix than previously suspected.

I swear, as I read the lines where he pleaded with Snape, an echo 
from Book 2 sounded in my mind: get on with it, it's time for  
Burning Day.

Talisman, who loves the scene where Snape kneels over Draco, wiping 
the blood away and healing the wounds, in part by "muttering an 
incantation that sounded almost like a song." (523)   









From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 04:20:38 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:20:38 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dbeq4h+mec7@...>
Message-ID: <dbfamm+919k@...>


MORE
SPOILER
SPACE
MORE
SPOILER
SPACE
MORE
SPOILER
SPACE
MORE
SPOILER
SPACE
MORE
SPOILER
SPACE
MORE
SPOILER
SPACE

Brian:

> I didn't know this, but it seems reasonable that if a wand is what
we
> seek, then Olivander is the man to kidnap...
> 
> ...as to the other three...Canon says that Amelia and Evangeline are
> dead.  That may or may not turn out to be true, but for now, it's
> canon.  And, other than ensuring a lifetime of sweet treats, I can't
> imagine what use V would have for Florean...jus' dunno.


Pippin:
Beg to differ. IIRC, Dumbledore never says that Emmeline Vance is
dead.
He does say that the Order has ways of faking murders so that
Voldemort's supporters think they have successfully done someone
in when they haven't (I'll find the reference on my second reading).
There's also an enchantment that makes people think they've committed
a murder when they haven't -- Voldemort used it to make sure the
Gaunts were blamed for the Riddle murders. I suspect the Order
could use it as well. It's not Dark magic, because Fred and George
have their little daydream incantation.

My take on it is, Ollivander had the wand relic and was spirited away
for safekeeping, and Emmeline Vance's death was faked. But we'll
see. Hmmm...wouldn't Regulus have to have had a parselmouth
with him to enter the cave? Or did he swap the locket before 
Voldemort took it to hide?

Pippin
who thinks the twist is that Harry is the eighth horcrux. And nice
try Kneasy, but that drip of blood was just too conveniently wiped
away before anyone knowledgeable or logical could see it. 





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 19:33:11 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:33:11 -0000
Subject: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <001f01c58afd$91ab2a80$d358aacf@...>
Message-ID: <dbebpn+83e0@...>

Spoiler space
spoiler space
Spoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler spaceSpoiler space
spoiler space
--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:

In GoF, in the scene we see in the Pensieve, Dumbledore tells the 
assembled,
"Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our 
side
BEFORE LORD VOLDEMORT'S DOWNFALL and turned spy for us, at great 
personal
risk." (590-591) (emphasis mine.)

Weelll I read this as before Voldy's disempowerment ie before he 
went wraith like.

However I *do* have a problem with the whole interruption thing, did 
Trelawney stop whilst Sevvy was manhandled and the just pick up 
after he'd gone or what? Sevvy only heard part of the prophecy but 
was pushed into the room and presumably interrupted Sybil, did the 
rest of the prophecy follow after the adverts?

Regards
Jo





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 05:47:35 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 05:47:35 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dbfamm+919k@...>
Message-ID: <dbffpn+6r55@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> SPOILER SPACE
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
END OF SPOILER SPACE
> 
>> 
> Pippin:
> Beg to differ. IIRC, Dumbledore never says that Emmeline Vance is
> dead.
> He does say that the Order has ways of faking murders so that
> Voldemort's supporters think they have successfully done someone
> in when they haven't (I'll find the reference on my second 
reading).

Talisman: He tells Draco about it on US pages 591-92, Chapter 27: 
The Lightning-Struck Tower.  

Speaking of Lightning-Struck towers, Trelawney seems to have been 
having a good tarot reading this time.

Pippin:
> There's also an enchantment that makes people think they've 
committed
> a murder when they haven't -- Voldemort used it to make sure the
> Gaunts were blamed for the Riddle murders. I suspect the Order
> could use it as well. It's not Dark magic, because Fred and George
> have their little daydream incantation.

Talisman:  Between all the ways a wizard can fake or hide their 
apearance, the "false memory" spell and the "fake death" program, 
Rowling can pull just about anything out of Book 7.

T





From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 17 23:54:32 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:54:32 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dbeq4h+mec7@...>
Message-ID: <dber3o+3m2v@...>

> > s
> > 
> > 
> > p
> > 
> > o
> > 
> > i
> > 
> > l
> > 
> > e
> > 
> > r
> > 
> > s
> > 
> > p
> > 
> > a
> > 
> > c
> > 
> > e

> Given what Kneasy said in another post:
> "We have GG's sword, HH's cup, SS's jewel - those are three of the
> Tarot suits.
> The fourth is Wands."

Go Kneasy!!! I noticed the Tarot suits in a chat with Dicey Saturday 
night.
 
> I didn't know this, but it seems reasonable that if a wand is what 
we
> seek, then Olivander is the man to kidnap...

Definitely. Especially since Ollivander's has been around since what, 
392 BC? Ollivander's ancestor probably *made* her wand.

~Amanda






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 00:09:58 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:09:58 -0000
Subject: etymology (spoilers deleted)
In-Reply-To: <dber8v+jdsn@...>
Message-ID: <dbes0m+jm2b@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:

> -Nora is happy to be your resident classicist

In PoA, the incantation to levitate tree is Mobiliarbus and to
levitate an unconscious person is Mobilicorpus. In OoP, Tonks
levitates Harry's trunk with 'Locomotor trunk'. I think it should be
Mobili-something, but my excursions into on=line English -> Latin
dictionaries were No Help. 

I asked my friend who took Latin and ended up with two possibilities,
neither of which I like, Mobilisarcina and Mobilicista. Help?





From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 00:40:16 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:40:16 -0000
Subject: Resident Classicists
Message-ID: <dbetpg+d2vg@...>

I posted this as a reply to Nora ('happy to be [our] resident
classicist') and it hasn't shown up so I'm posting again so now it
will show twice....

PoA:
Mobiliarbus = levitate tree
Mobilicorpus = levitate unconscious person

OoP:
Locomotor trunk = levitate trunk

I think it should be Mobili-something but struggling with on-line
English->Latin dictionaries was No Help.

I asked my friend who took Latin and, after discussion, ended up with
two possibilities, neither of which I like:

Mobilisarcina
Mobilicista





From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 07:32:30 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:32:30 -0000
Subject: HBP: meant to say...
In-Reply-To: <dbc6fs+hc2c@...>
Message-ID: <dbflue+1079i@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...>
wrote:

> 
> David, wondering if R A Butler never made it to Muggle Prime 
> Minister because he got an urgent call from a portrait...

Neri:
Now that you mention it, maybe the portrait sent him to steal a
certain locket from a certain cave. The acronym certainly fits.










From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 07:42:36 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:42:36 -0000
Subject: HBP: meant to say...
In-Reply-To: <dbflue+1079i@...>
Message-ID: <dbfmhc+nnvg@...>

spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space
spoiler space


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...>
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > David, wondering if R A Butler never made it to Muggle Prime 
> > Minister because he got an urgent call from a portrait...
> 
> Neri:
> Now that you mention it, maybe the portrait sent him to steal a
> certain locket from a certain cave. The acronym certainly fits.

OK you'd need two people to get the locket (DD said so), yet the 
boat would know if two magical people were there. So one 
witch/wizard, one muggle?

Or one house elf? Nope my money is on Black and Kreacher.

Regards
Jo





From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 07:48:19 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:48:19 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP - it's that man again, mostly
In-Reply-To: <4868ADBB-4AA7-4044-AF3E-48B738A74036@...>
References: <4868ADBB-4AA7-4044-AF3E-48B738A74036@...>
Message-ID: <20050718074819.GD29882@...>

On Sun, Jul 17, 2005 at 07:16:47PM +0100, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> 
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> A
> N
> D
> A
> B
> I
> T
> M
> O
> R
> E
> 

<snipoh the snip>

> DD drinks a tub full of a Voldy potion. If it's straight poison then  
> it ain't very  fast acting. But think. Would Voldy want the thief to  
> drop  down dead on the spot? Or to suffer -  perhaps for a long, long  
> time. Would Voldy assume that there would be two thieves on that  
> tight little island? Probably not. (And why did the phrase "Stole it,  
> he did my precious" spring to mind?) Anyway the thief wants water.  
> Magical production of water is interdicted, and when anyone touches  
> the lake it's Curse of the Zombies time. My nasty imagination  
> suspects that DD (or Harry, if they'd succeeded in carrying him off)  
> would not become truly dead. To  borrow from LoTR again - think Ring- 
> Wraiths. Even though they escape DD knows that this time he's bitten  
> off more than he can chew. He *has* to die - and soon. And it is up  
> to Snape to administer the coup-de-grace, saving him from something  
> worse and only incidentally fulfill his oath to Cissy by giving Draco  
> a chance to review his options - a Regulus replay?

Food for thought. I just read the Time interview and JKR very carefully says
"Dumbledore is not Jesus" in response to suggestions of religious allegory.
Then again she is shockingly cagey about a major character death, so she still
gets to sit on the fence.

Interview in question (warts and all) here:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1083935-1,00.html

-- 
sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me.




From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 08:33:32 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:33:32 -0000
Subject: Were HP and DD wrong? (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbf6oj+iv0p@...>
Message-ID: <dbfpgs+ah4r@...>

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
And then we get more spoilers.
Let's think about spoilers
Let's write about spoilers
But let no one see our spoilers.
If they haven't finished the book.

Ginger wrote: 
> If one has Horcruxes made, and is killed, does the part of the 
soul 
> in that person die? Or does one of the Horcruxes empty itself of a 
> soul? In other words, when LV was killed at GH, did a part of his 
> soul that was in him die or one that was in a Horcrux? In either 
> case aren't we down to 6, unless he has made another to replace 
the 
> one he used then? 
> 

Hmmm... maybe it was the part of the soul that was killed at GH went 
into Harry?

Which raises another question about good old Snape. This hatred that 
Harry always sees for himself in Snape - is it for Harry? Or does 
Snape know or suspect that Harry contains part of Voldie's soul?

Is that what Snape is showing hatred to?

And that would explain why Snape is *so* hard on Harry, who cannot 
understand why Snape is convinced that Harry's an egomaniac liar, 
etc. If part of Voldemort's soul is in Harry, Harry is in terrible 
danger of being taken over by it - and every time Snape sees 
something that looks Voldemortish, he tries to squash it, ruthlessly.

The thing that approach *cannot* squash, of course, is hatred. Harry 
hates really well. He hates Snape.

Or is it that the Voldemort within?

Pip!Squeak

"Where do you think would I have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 09:57:40 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:57:40 -0000
Subject: HBP: spoiler telling time
Message-ID: <dbfuek+qnom@...>

spoiler space
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Does anyone else think that Ron's birthday present from his parents 
was actually *DD's* watch?

Is this a sign of DD putting his house in order?

Regards
Jo





From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 10:14:27 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:14:27 -0000
Subject: Hedgecrumpets (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbfpgs+ah4r@...>
Message-ID: <dbfve3+v53g@...>

C
A
N
'
T

T
H
I
N
K

O
F

A
N
Y
T
H
I
N
G
 
A
M
U
S
I
N
G

Completed a second leisurely read-through, and have some more 
questions (and a couple of answers).

Ginger wrote:
If one has Horcruxes made, and is killed, does the part of the soul
> in that person die? Or does one of the Horcruxes empty itself of a
> soul? In other words, when LV was killed at GH, did a part of his
> soul that was in him die or one that was in a Horcrux? In either
> case aren't we down to 6, unless he has made another to replace the
> one he used then?

Dungrollin:
I don't think it's a question of using them up like lives in a 
videogame.  The principle is that a piece of your soul is hidden 
elsewhere, outside your body, and that is what ties the piece of 
your soul that *is* in your body to this world, and stops you 'going 
on' when you get an AK in the face.  If anyone AKs Voldy again, 
he'll be reduced to gas again, and it can happen as many times over 
as you like, but it won't cause any damage to any of his 
Whorecrushers, all of those bits of his soul are tied to this world 
because they are separated from each other.

Pip wrote:
> Hmmm... maybe it was the part of the soul that was killed at GH 
went into Harry?
> 

Dungrollin:

The Hoarsecrotchets:
1. The diary (done)
2. The ring (done)
3. The locket (at GP ? good catch, Debbie)
4. Nagini (always knew she was in on it)
5. Hufflepuff's cup (what are those strange magic powers?)
6. Something of Ravenclaw's (wand? ? good catch, Kneasy)
7. Voldy.

Does Golpalott's Third Law (The antidote for a blended poison will 
be equal to more than the sum of the antidotes of each of the 
separate components) have any bearing on this?  What is that added 
component which will, by an almost alchemical process, transform 
these disparate elements...? Perhaps *that* is Harry.

When Harry finds and has a go at destroying the Hawkrocker in the 
locket, how is he going to do it without withering his hand like DD 
did?  I suggest somebody with an exceptionally strong *sliver* hand 
might be rather useful. And I think the only way of convincing him 
to do it is through his charming housemate.

Dungrollin






From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 10:41:59 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:41:59 -0000
Subject: that question about the thingies again
Message-ID: <dbg11n+r04n@...>

SPOILER SPACE:

I WAS SO GLAD I RAN INTO JOANNA THAT NIGHT.  I STARTED OFF THE EVENING 
OVERHEARING A GUY THAT LOOKED LIKE A PROFESSOR TELLING SOMEONE THAT HE 
HAD QUIT READING THE BOOKS AFTER POA BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SEE WHY THEY 
DIDN'T TAKE THE TIME TURNER AND GO BACK AND UNDO ALL THE THINGS LV DID.

I PROCEDED TO EXPLAIN IT TO HIM, AND HE AGREED WITH EVERYTHING I 
SAID.  I THOUGHT IT HAD THE MAKINGS OF GOOD CONVERSATION UNTIL I TOLD 
HIM I HAVE HAD INTERESTING CONVERSATIONS ABOUT FREE-WILL VS. 
PREDESTINATION AND HE SAID, "I'LL BET YOU HAVE."  

THEN I REALIZED HE WAS BEING SARCASTIC, SO I EXTRICATED MYSELF BY 
SAYING THEY WERE FACINATING CONVERSATIONS.

SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO SMART PEOPLE IN REAL LIFE.


Back to the smart people I hang out with online:

I posted my Horcrux question (were DD and HP wrong?) on another forum 
and found that I had been unclear.

What I was wondering was this:

They said there were 7 Horcruxes.  The diary, the ring, and LV's old 
body were gone.  That left 4 to search out.  (the locket, the cup, 
Nagini and the Rowena object.)

I think there should be 3 left.  One of the 4 that was left is now in 
LV's new body.  We know it isn't the locket, because that was emptied 
by someone other than LV.  We know it ins't Nagini because that one 
was made after his re-bodiment.  So that leaves the cup and Rowena's 
object, one of which should now be empty, having provided the new soul 
for his current body.

If they find the empty one first, they have to keep searching, but if 
they find the one with the Horcrux, then they just have to whack 
Nagini.  Maybe Herm will figure this out.

So am I making sense now?

Ginger, who hopes her TV will hold out for the JKR interview this 
morning.





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 10:54:25 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:54:25 -0000
Subject: HBP: meant to say...
In-Reply-To: <dbfmhc+nnvg@...>
Message-ID: <dbg1p1+p91t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> 
wrote:
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
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> 
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
> wrote:
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > 
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > 
> > 
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
> <dfrankiswork at n...>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > David, wondering if R A Butler never made it to Muggle Prime 
> > > Minister because he got an urgent call from a portrait...
> > 
> > Neri:
> > Now that you mention it, maybe the portrait sent him to steal a
> > certain locket from a certain cave. The acronym certainly fits.
> 
> OK you'd need two people to get the locket (DD said so), yet the 
> boat would know if two magical people were there. So one 
> witch/wizard, one muggle?
> 
> Or one house elf? Nope my money is on Black and Kreacher.
> 
> Regards
> Jo

RAB as one person's initials could be too obvious...could it be R and 
B.  The R and B are linked together like partners crime, no pun 
inteneded, so maybe Rodolphus and Bella stole it. Sorry for the mis-
spelling of Roddy's name.
Fran





From eloiseherisson at fritter_my_wig.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 10:53:29 2005
From: eloiseherisson at fritter_my_wig.yahoo.invalid (fritter_my_wig)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:53:29 -0000
Subject: More First Impressions
Message-ID: <dbg1n9+8laf@...>

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OK. I've been trying to catch up, but there are too many people's 
remarks I'd like to comment on or agree with, whatever, so for what 
it's worth here's my two knuts' worth. Please forgive any too obvious 
repetition.

First off, I've always hated the title Half Blood Prince, found it 
very clunky and I wasn't altogether satisfied with its explanation. I 
shouldn't have thought Snape proud enough of his half-blood status to 
use it as a title. 

I enjoyed this volume hugely until they got to the lake, then I cried 
for the rest of the book (though reading spellbound). None of the 
others has affected me like that. I predicted Sirius' death but I 
never liked him and looked on, Snape-like, in amused condescension at 
the grief outpoured in the fandom. Even though I knew Dumbledore had 
to die, that did affect me. And even, truth be told, though I've 
never particularly warmed to Harry, his final abandonment moved me.
 
Actually, I lked Harry a whole lot more this time. And by the end I 
thought, yes, finally we have an adult. Which is one reason 
Dumbledore had to go.
 
I feel quite disturbed by the book as a whole (being a Snapefan, 
perhaps naturally). I feel a bit annoyed that some of the love theme 
she was developing was a bit, well, trite, I suppose. I've always 
(pace various members of this group)found SHIPping amusing/annoying 
(ie I never read SHIPping debates, thinking them pointless and was 
just amused by the vehemence they inspired). But then, we're talking 
teenage romance, not grand adult passion, so I find it difficult to 
be gripped by it. ;-) I've always been more interested in the adults 
in the series. I was amused to note the Tonks/Remus pairing as it was 
a prominent part of only the second FF I've ever read. I did laugh at 
that as I'd been totally taken in and assumed she'd fallen for Sirius 
(though I found that rather unsatisfactory as there was nothing to 
hint at it in OoP as far as I could remember). 

LOL! I've just realised why the initials on the note were so 
familiar! It's my FIL!!!!! Well, who would have thought it! In fact, 
I agree it's Regulus. Has to be. And the implication is that Harry 
already possesses the locket.... if Mundungus hasn't stolen it, which 
I bet he has. Hermione is irritatingly slow on the uptake with that 
one. I suppose the excuse is that they think he was a stupid coward.

 
Anyway, back to the crux of the matter. Severus. ;-)
 
Hee. At last he gets into the title of a book. About time!
 
What does she want us to believe? Unfortunately, I no longer have any 
faith in her misdirection, as so often the fandom *does* get it right.
 
So. Ch 2 she tries to tell us via the Unbreakable Vow that he's 
really in with with LV
 
Harry's eavesdropping - that he's in with Draco.
 
Hagrid's - ambiguous. As overheard conversations in the forbidden 
Forest are!
 
DD's reactions to the various overhearings - designed to make us 
think he's a trusting old fool.
 
Trouble is, the Snapefan's answer to it all is so very obvious that 
if it's right it will be almost a let down. Dumbledore obviously knew 
that he must die, that he had to go to allow Harry to be a man, that 
his dying would be one more thing that would strengthen Harry's *own* 
desire to go after LV, nothing to do with the prophecy. I suspect his 
dying may also have other implications that we don't know yet. Snape 
can't help Harry, either, except by again increasing his resolve and 
giving him covert assistance via the book. Snape's interactions with 
Harry are *designed* to increase Harry's anger and resolve to revenge 
his parents. 

Dumbledore and Snape knew LV's plan; they did not want Draco to be a 
killer. The Unbreakable Vow was performed with Dumbledore's full 
knowledge and approval. Probably manipulation, because Snape wanted 
out of it, as we heard from Hagrid, though how, I don't know and DD 
would have wanted to ensure that he had no choice but to kill him at 
a time of his choosing. 
 
She hasn't explained why Dumbledore immobilised Harry. Presumably 
we're *supposed* to think it was for his own safety, whereas in 
reality it was to stop him interfering with the pre-ordained plan. 
The talking with Draco, whilst performing the hackneyed literary 
functions of letting the detective explain all and the villain gloat 
over his victory was from DD's POV, designed to give Snape time to 
get there. 'Snape, please' was an instruction, not a plea for mercy.
 
And he (Dumbledore) hasn't left Hogwarts. We're *told* that there is 
no precedent for a headmaster being buried there (makes me wonder 
about that quote re Hogwarts' graveyard) and he specifically 
instructed that he was to be buried there. That's not sentiment. I'm 
certain that his death has some other purpose, that he is still 
protecting Hogwarts. And of course, for communication of his 
intentions, the portrait is already there. I wonder if he's going to 
turn up in that locket, too. Ah. The mirror. That's going to come 
back, IIRC, and there will be a Pensieve memory somewhere to 
exonerate Snape.

If Dumbldeore *had* to die as part of his great plan, then Snape 
*had* to leave Hogwarts as he had no reasonable excuse to stay. So he 
has to appear outwardly as well as covertly to be a servant of LV. 
>From LV's POV, there is no excuse for his not 'coming out', 
particularly in the context of a battle.

And as Mike pointed out, that bit about not calling him a 
coward....Well, my little Snapefan heart glows with pride. ;-)
If he has been on DD's side in all this, the line he's been treading 
for the last three years has been perilous in the extreme. And now 
he's *had* to kill the man that some of us strongly believe is the 
nearest to a father he's ever had.

As to speculation about the intention behind the AK...well, it's 
known as the Killing Curse, not the Murdering Curse. And he may well 
have hated DD at that point for what he was making him do. andger and 
hatred seem to be two of the emotions that srpings most readily to 
him and even for the best of us it's often those we love the most who 
can inspire the most negative feelings in us.

As for his backstory, I'm annoyed with her for choosing to answer 
that fan question about Snape's bloodline. It was a clumsy piece of 
misdirection. Of course, we already had a strong clue in that Harry 
didn't see Severus on Sirius' tapestry. But how can LV accept half-
bloods? That's a terrible inconsistency to me (mind you her whole 
blood line thing is a bit of a mess - Harry's hardly a half-blood in 
the way LV is). Of course, she set that up, too, by the thing about 
there not really being any pure bloods these days.
 
And the reason Snape never go the DADA post before was that the post 
*was* jinxed and DD knew he'd be out of Hogwarts by the end of the 
year. I wonder if he knew that it was cursed before Dumbledore gave 
it to him. I hope so.
 
I liked the Room of Requirement stuff (did that remind anyone else of 
the scene in Return to Oz?). After Harry got in there, I was certain 
that we were going to find that Draco hadn't been told to kill DD, 
but to find the locket which was hidden in there. I'd place money on 
Harry finding one of the other Horcruxes in there
 
We know now what the clue in COS was, don't we! I was never happy 
with that book, the way the diary acted, exactly *what* Diary!Riddle 
was. Makes sense now.
 
I assumed that love potions were going to play a more serious role in 
the plot. Perhaps that's next time. Perhaps that has to do with 
the "Why would anyone want Snape in love with them?" answer. Snape 
doses Lily and when she finds out she turns to James? He propelled 
her into his arms?

There was an awful lot about how good Lily was at Potions, too, which 
I guess will be significant. I find it strange that Slughorn (love 
the name!) didn't recognise Severus' hand in Harry's work, that he 
kept comparing it instead to Lily's. After all, until now we've been 
led to believe that Lily's talent was Charms.

What about the spider references? What's the significance of Snape 
living at Spinner's End? And later, of course that's exactly what we 
see in Aragog's death - a spinner's end. And the spiders in the 
Weasley outhouse? Or are spiders the new socks?

Oh and one final thing. Since when have toilets become bathrooms on 
this side of the Atlantic? Especially in the archaic WW?
 
~Eloise
(Who will be first in line to learn the AK if Bk 7 proves that Snape 
*is* ESE)






From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 10:56:49 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:56:49 -0000
Subject: Hedgecrumpets (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbfve3+v53g@...>
Message-ID: <dbg1th+31c1@...>

Spoiler space
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--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" 
<spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
> C
> A
> N
> '
> T
> 
> T
> H
> I
> N
> K
> 
> O
> F
> 
> A
> N
> Y
> T
> H
> I
> N
> G
>  
> A
> M
> U
> S
> I
> N
> G
> 
> Completed a second leisurely read-through, and have some more 
> questions (and a couple of answers).
> 
> Ginger wrote:
> If one has Horcruxes made, and is killed, does the part of the soul
> > in that person die? Or does one of the Horcruxes empty itself of 
a
> > soul? In other words, when LV was killed at GH, did a part of his
> > soul that was in him die or one that was in a Horcrux? In either
> > case aren't we down to 6, unless he has made another to replace 
the
> > one he used then?
> 
> Dungrollin:
> I don't think it's a question of using them up like lives in a 
> videogame.  The principle is that a piece of your soul is hidden 
> elsewhere, outside your body, and that is what ties the piece of 
> your soul that *is* in your body to this world, and stops 
you 'going 
> on' when you get an AK in the face.  If anyone AKs Voldy again, 
> he'll be reduced to gas again, and it can happen as many times 
over 
> as you like, but it won't cause any damage to any of his 
> Whorecrushers, all of those bits of his soul are tied to this 
world 
> because they are separated from each other.
> 
> Pip wrote:
> > Hmmm... maybe it was the part of the soul that was killed at GH 
> went into Harry?
> > 
> 
> Dungrollin:
> 
> The Hoarsecrotchets:
> 1. The diary (done)
> 2. The ring (done)
> 3. The locket (at GP ? good catch, Debbie)
> 4. Nagini (always knew she was in on it)
> 5. Hufflepuff's cup (what are those strange magic powers?)
> 6. Something of Ravenclaw's (wand? ? good catch, Kneasy)
> 7. Voldy.
> 
<snip interesting suggestion re silver hands and such>
> 
> Dungrollin


I'm not at all convinced that those four remaining items have been 
correctly identified by DD. Repeatedly we are told he is guessing 
and that he does make mistakes. I'm actually sold on the locket, cup 
and wand but I think the Nagini option is unlikely. I'm fairly 
confident it will turn out to be a Gryffindor thing in the end.

If its an object from Hogwarts how could Voldy have nabbed it 
though? Well firstly in DD's memory of the teaching interview Harry 
notices Voldy doing something with his wand, is it possible that he 
could have initiated something then, or is that the DADA curse being 
placed? Secondly could Voldy have gained access to Hogwarts via 
Borgin and Burkes' cabinet? Do we know when the Hogwarts one was 
broken, or how it was broken?

On the other hand if DD is semi correct and the fourth HRX is a 
living being, who's the most typical  Gryffindor, one of the 
Weasleys perhaps, or Neville? Who's to say Voldy has even made the 
final HRX yet?
Placing the final HRX in a living Gryffindor would mean that Harry 
would have to sacrifice one of his own to defeat Voldy.

Now there's a nasty moral dilemma!
Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 11:18:26 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:18:26 -0000
Subject: Were HP and DD wrong? (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbfpgs+ah4r@...>
Message-ID: <dbg362+gebt@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pip at e...> wrote:
> Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
> And then we get more spoilers.
> Let's think about spoilers
> Let's write about spoilers
> But let no one see our spoilers.
> If they haven't finished the book.
> 
> Ginger wrote: 
> > If one has Horcruxes made, and is killed, does the part of the 
> soul 
> > in that person die? Or does one of the Horcruxes empty itself of 
a 
> > soul? In other words, when LV was killed at GH, did a part of his 
> > soul that was in him die or one that was in a Horcrux? In either 
> > case aren't we down to 6, unless he has made another to replace 
> the 
> > one he used then? 
> > 
> 
> Hmmm... maybe it was the part of the soul that was killed at GH 
went 
> into Harry?
> 
> Which raises another question about good old Snape. This hatred 
that 
> Harry always sees for himself in Snape - is it for Harry? Or does 
> Snape know or suspect that Harry contains part of Voldie's soul?
> 
> Is that what Snape is showing hatred to?
> 
> And that would explain why Snape is *so* hard on Harry, who cannot 
> understand why Snape is convinced that Harry's an egomaniac liar, 
> etc. If part of Voldemort's soul is in Harry, Harry is in terrible 
> danger of being taken over by it - and every time Snape sees 
> something that looks Voldemortish, he tries to squash it, 
ruthlessly.
> 
> The thing that approach *cannot* squash, of course, is hatred. 
Harry 
> hates really well. He hates Snape.
> 
> Or is it that the Voldemort within?
> 
> Pip!Squeak
> 
> "Where do you think would I have been all these years, if I had not 
> known how to act?" - Severus Snape

Harry could be a constant reminder of the terrible mistake he made. 
Also LV would have to commit the death before splitting his soul, 
right? Since he did not suceed, he could not have done the spell or 
whatever.
Fran





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 11:32:46 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:32:46 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050717232916.009c64b0@...>
Message-ID: <dbg40u+trs5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Richard <hp at p...> wrote:
> At 22:58 17/07/05 , Barry Arrowsmith replied to my previous:
> >--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Richard <hp at p...> wrote:
> > >
> > > To insist that "Patronus" must have a plural of "Patroni" is to make
> > > incorrect suppositions based on a fractured knowledge of Latin grammar.
> >
> >Possibly.
> >But it looks neater and contains fewer letters. RSI, you know.
> 
> Yeah, but it reeks of showing oneself to be uninformed and verges on 
> illiteracy. Which is never a good thing when discussing works of literature.
> 
> As for RSI, surely you of all people, Barry, shouldn't be going on about 
> saving a few keystrokes? :-)

Kneasy:
Fractured? Demolished more like. It's 47 years since latin as a subject loomed
on my horizons and I didn't think much of it then either. The only bits I've
bothered with since are those that  can be sussed as descriptive identifers in 
scientific terminology. You can get a small Greek and Arabic vocabularly too if
you're interested in derivations - so: multiformans, artery (that's a good one, it
demonstrates a basic error in the deductions of the early anatomists. I've often
wondered why it's never been corrected) rhinoplasty, xylene, ion, alcohol, zero. 

Anyway, I love constructing linguistic neologisms, the more groan-worthy the 
better. I get a perverse pleasure out of doing so. If it doesn't go down well with
the purists - well, so be it; but screams of anguish might encourage me to even
worse atrocities. 

> 
> Yes, "hors" means "outside" or "beyond", and it sent my thinking in the 
> opposite direction of the ideas I mentioned. Whilst the others were (I 
> assumed) a method of "preserving" acts of cruelty, this one was to be a 
> method of saving oneself *from* acts of cruelty, i.e.  putting oneself 
> "outside the range of" an Unforgivable. I discounted this at the time 
> because a) I doubt a Hogwarts teacher would refuse to discuss a method of 
> protecting oneself against Dark activity; b) he'd ask the DADA teacher 
> rather than the Potions prof.; c) while Riddle might be interested in 
> protecting himself against Dark activity, he'd want something more pro-active.
> 
> I also discounted "hors" from my etymology of what Horcruxes *are* (as 
> opposed to what I surmised they *might be* from their name), because they 
> are clearly something you put your soul *into*; removing your soul seems 
> easy enough (get a Dementor).

Kneasy:
Hmm.
I've been looking at it from the other direction. I agree that 'crux' is probably
intended as per definition 2. in the Shorter OED - [...] a difficult matter; the 
central point. 

Adding 'hor' could then indicate 'out of (or from) the central point'.
Thus the fragments of soul are outliers from Voldy's centre; a description
of what they are (a hiding place for part of oneself outside oneself) rather than
an indication of their function or means of construction (protection or a 
by-product of his nasty habits). Splitting one's soul is more likely to be a no-no
than building a hiding place.

Naturally I would think along those lines - it can be incorporated into other
threads. The possibility that there is/had been a Salazar Horcrux in the Chamber
for example.

But no doubt Jo will enlighten us as to the etymology - sooner or later.
Probably later if she considers it of more than passing informational value.






From eloiseherisson at fritter_my_wig.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 11:35:57 2005
From: eloiseherisson at fritter_my_wig.yahoo.invalid (fritter_my_wig)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:35:57 -0000
Subject: Resident Classicists
In-Reply-To: <dbetpg+d2vg@...>
Message-ID: <dbg46t+idqp@...>

Catlady:
> PoA:
> Mobiliarbus = levitate tree
> Mobilicorpus = levitate unconscious person
> 
> OoP:
> Locomotor trunk = levitate trunk
> 
> I think it should be Mobili-something but struggling with on-line
> English->Latin dictionaries was No Help.
>

Even more irritatingly, Locomotor Mortis is the leg-locker curse, but 
at least this inidates that the Locomotor bit is used in more than 
one spell to indicate movement.

But if spells are invented, then perhaps it is the inventor who 
decides on the form of words and consistency isn't absoluely 
necessary. Begs the question why she didn't just say 'Locomotor 
tree', though. I mean how often do you go around moving trees 
(perhaps it's a landscape gardening spell). Perhaps there are spells 
which are more or less interchangeable.

~Eloise





From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 11:52:53 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:52:53 -0000
Subject: Hedgecrumpets (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbg1th+31c1@...>
Message-ID: <dbg56l+evm1@...>

SPOILER SPACE:

GOT UP EARLY AS THE WH SMUG ROUND THE CORNER WAS 

OPENING AT 7.  FOUND ONE CHAP WAITING ON A BENCH
 
OUTSIDE, WHO SAID GRUFFLY "I'VE BIN 'ERE SINCE 'ALF

PAST SIX."  I REMARKED THAT IF THE SHOP HAD OPENED 

AT MIDNIGHT I'D HAVE BEEN THERE LIKE A SHOT. HE 

LOOKED DUBIOUS AND SAID "WELL, WE DON'T REALLY DO

MASS HYSTERIA ROUND HERE, DO WE?"  HE MAY HAVE BEEN

WAITING ON THE ORDERS OF WIFE AND/OR KIDS, BUT FROM

THE GLEAM IN HIS EYE, I COULD TELL HE WAS AS EXCITED 

AS I WAS. BY OPENING TIME WE HAD GROWN INTO A QUEUE.

MET SOME BOUNCING TEENAGERS WITH THEIR MUM

ON THE WAY HOME, GRINNED AND SAID "ON YOUR WAY TO 

WH SMUG?" THEY GRINNED BACK, AND BOUNCED A BIT MORE,

EYEING MY WH SMUG HARRY POTTER BAG. 

"YES" SAID THE MUM.  I WISHED THEM HAPPY READING.



> > Dungrollin:
> > 
> > The Hoarsecrotchets:
> > 1. The diary (done)
> > 2. The ring (done)
> > 3. The locket (at GP ? good catch, Debbie)
> > 4. Nagini (always knew she was in on it)
> > 5. Hufflepuff's cup (what are those strange magic powers?)
> > 6. Something of Ravenclaw's (wand? ? good catch, Kneasy)
> > 7. Voldy.
> > 
> <snip interesting suggestion re silver hands and such>


Mooseming:
> I'm not at all convinced that those four remaining items have been 
> correctly identified by DD. Repeatedly we are told he is guessing 
> and that he does make mistakes. I'm actually sold on the locket, 
> cup and wand but I think the Nagini option is unlikely. I'm fairly 
> confident it will turn out to be a Gryffindor thing in the end.
> 

Dungrollin again:
Ah, see I'm completely sold on Nagini, I think the Something of 
Ravenclaw's the dodgiest.  I want to know whether Voldy's planning 
on making another Hogratchet to replace the Diary, which is the only 
one he knows is gone. If he likes significant deaths and 
accumulating trinkets, I'd bet he's got his eye on knocking off 
Harry and pinching Gryffindor's sword.  








From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 12:57:44 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:57:44 -0000
Subject: Hedgecrumpets (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbfve3+v53g@...>
Message-ID: <dbg908+ukqr@...>

C
A
N
'
T

T
H
I
N
K

O
F
 
A
N
Y
T
H
I
N
G
 
A
M
U
S
I
N
G
 
Dungrollin, previously:
> When Harry finds and has a go at destroying the Hawkrocker in the 
> locket, how is he going to do it without withering his hand like 
DD did?  I suggest somebody with an exceptionally strong *sliver* 
hand might be rather useful. And I think the only way of convincing 
him to do it is through his charming housemate.
> 

Dungrollin replying to herself:
Actually, the easiest way of getting rid of them for good would be 
to chuck them through the veil.  That way they're definitely "on the 
other side" and can't pull the bit of soul left in Voldy's body back 
if somebody gets him.

Now, another question: Imagine that the only two hoseruckuses left 
are Voldy and Nagini (the others having been chucked through the 
veil), and somebody kills Nagini. Would the bit of soul in Nagini be 
left floating around like Vapour!Mort was in Albania? Could that bit 
of soul make itself a new body with the potion Voldy used in GoF? 
Could there, in effect, be two Voldemorts?  

Dungrollin, concerned.






From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 13:02:55 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:02:55 -0000
Subject: Hedgecrumpets (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbg908+ukqr@...>
Message-ID: <dbg99v+gmqg@...>

C
A
N
'
T

T
H
I
N
K

O
F
 
A
N
Y
T
H
I
N
G
 
A
M
U
S
I
N
G
 

> Dungrollin, previously:
> > When Harry finds and has a go at destroying the Hawkrocker in 
the 
> > locket, how is he going to do it without withering his hand like 
> DD did?  I suggest somebody with an exceptionally strong *sliver* 
> hand might be rather useful. And I think the only way of 
convincing 
> him to do it is through his charming housemate.
> > 
> 
> Dungrollin replying to herself:
> Actually, the easiest way of getting rid of them for good would be 
> to chuck them through the veil.  That way they're definitely "on 
the other side" and can't pull the bit of soul left in Voldy's body 
back if somebody gets him.
> 
> Now, another question: Imagine that the only two hoseruckuses left 
> are Voldy and Nagini (the others having been chucked through the 
> veil), and somebody kills Nagini. Would the bit of soul in Nagini 
be left floating around like Vapour!Mort was in Albania? Could that 
bit of soul make itself a new body with the potion Voldy used in 
GoF? Could there, in effect, be two Voldemorts?  
> 
> Dungrollin, concerned.

Dungrollin again, who promises she'll shut up for a bit now:

Eeek.  And neither can live while the other survives.






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 13:09:47 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:09:47 -0000
Subject: Resident Classicists
In-Reply-To: <dbetpg+d2vg@...>
Message-ID: <dbg9mr+mj2t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:
> I posted this as a reply to Nora ('happy to be [our] resident
> classicist') and it hasn't shown up so I'm posting again so now it
> will show twice....
> 
> PoA:
> Mobiliarbus = levitate tree
> Mobilicorpus = levitate unconscious person
> 
> OoP:
> Locomotor trunk = levitate trunk
> 
> I think it should be Mobili-something but struggling with on-line
> English->Latin dictionaries was No Help.
> 
> I asked my friend who took Latin and, after discussion, ended up 
with
> two possibilities, neither of which I like:
> 
> Mobilisarcina
> Mobilicista

I don't like either of them, either.  The reason why took a little 
thinking, but here it is:

Neither of those is a common word in Latin.  Neither has clear 
derivatives in English, either.  'Corpus' and 'arbor' both do, so one 
can easily make pseudo-Latinate spells out of them that are more or 
less intelligible to an English speaker.  One can guess 
what 'Mobilicorpus' does fairly easily, but your new spells are a 
little more 'buh?'.

Ergo, JKR probably went for clarity and around problems of how it 
sounds.

-Nora will have to think about the naming of Horcruces...





From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 13:40:29 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 06:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP: Discrepancy with timeline, help
In-Reply-To: <dbf79s+5c3b@...>
Message-ID: <20050718134029.28713.qmail@...>

> Joywitch:
> 
>I found a potential Flint in this scene, too.  Trelawney says
>that she saw Snape come in.  That means that she was out of her 
>trance-- therefore she had spoken the whole prophecy.  But if Snape 
>was still in the vicinity, doesn't that necessarily mean that Snape 
>heard the WHOLE prophecy?  

Not if he was arguing with the person who discovered him
eavesdropping.  He wouldn't be able to hear anything after that.

Magda (who will post soon)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 13:55:02 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:55:02 -0000
Subject: Hedgecrumpets (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbfve3+v53g@...>
Message-ID: <dbgcbm+3kc2@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" 
<spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
> C
> A
> N
> '
> T
> 
> T
> H
> I
> N
> K
> 
> O
> F
> 
> A
> N
> Y
> T
> H
> I
> N
> G
>  
> A
> M
> U
> S
> I
> N
>
> When Harry finds and has a go at destroying the Hawkrocker in the 
> locket, how is he going to do it without withering his hand like DD 
> did?  I suggest somebody with an exceptionally strong *sliver* hand 
> might be rather useful. And I think the only way of convincing him 
> to do it is through his charming housemate.

I don't know about through the housemate (although really, is not 
Snape/Wormtail slash practically canonical by now?).  Peter owes 
Harry one.  A very, very big one, as Harry spared him from the 
Furies.  Also, it looks like Peter is really not liking where he is--
and he's been listening at doors, trying to figure things out.

IF (and it's a big if, because I do see all the holes and outs and 
problems) Snape is actually ESE, then Peter's possibility for 
redemption seems to rise accordingly.  It seems that Regulus has done 
something heroic to spite Voldemort; is this the path for the ex-
Marauder, to overcome the fear which governs his self-concern?

It'd be very thematically tasty, no?

-Nora watches the fog smother the harbor for another day





From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 14:11:50 2005
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:11:50 -0000
Subject: Resident Classicists
In-Reply-To: <dbg9mr+mj2t@...>
Message-ID: <dbgdb6+6gd1@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:

> > Mobilisarcina
> > Mobilicista
> 
...snip...
 
> Neither of those is a common word in Latin.  Neither has clear 
> derivatives in English, either.  

Actually, that's not true.  Cista/cistum means "box" and is the word 
from which "chest" is derived.  (If you give the Latin word the 
Italianate pronunciation it becomes "chist" which is very close to 
the English "chest".)  This word could also have been highly 
appropriate because a word that was commonly used in Scotland that 
many wizards would probably know is "kist", for a small chest or box 
used to store one's money or other valuables.  Although it wasn't in 
the book, in the film of CoS Tom Riddle uses a spell with "cistum" 
in it to force open the box in which Hagrid is hiding Aragog.  I was 
tickled by this because I used the same spell in a fanfic, well 
before the film was released. ;)

--Barb, another resident Classicist






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 14:18:49 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:18:49 -0000
Subject: Resident Classicists
In-Reply-To: <dbgdb6+6gd1@...>
Message-ID: <dbgdo9+88r3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" 
<psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
> 
> > > Mobilisarcina
> > > Mobilicista
> > 
> ...snip...
>  
> > Neither of those is a common word in Latin.  Neither has clear 
> > derivatives in English, either.  
> 
> Actually, that's not true.  Cista/cistum means "box" and is the 
word 
> from which "chest" is derived.  (If you give the Latin word the 
> Italianate pronunciation it becomes "chist" which is very close to 
> the English "chest".)  This word could also have been highly 
> appropriate because a word that was commonly used in Scotland that 
> many wizards would probably know is "kist", for a small chest or 
box 
> used to store one's money or other valuables.  Although it wasn't 
in 
> the book, in the film of CoS Tom Riddle uses a spell with "cistum" 
> in it to force open the box in which Hagrid is hiding Aragog.  I 
was 
> tickled by this because I used the same spell in a fanfic, well 
> before the film was released. ;)

As I said, no *clear* derivatives, in the sense of readers picking up 
on it. ;)

It's really just that it sounds better, I think.  But then I also 
just can't pronounce things with ecclesiastical pronunciation unless 
I'm singing them to remember some text.  C is hard.  C is always 
hard!!!

-Nora gets back to 'Flos filius eius', really





From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 14:26:17 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:26:17 -0000
Subject: that question about the thingies again
In-Reply-To: <dbg11n+r04n@...>
Message-ID: <dbge69+92t1@...>

Only read this if you want to know about horcruxes Only read this if 
you want to know about horcruxes Only read this if you want to know 
about horcruxes Only read this if you want to know about horcruxes 
Only read this if you want to know about horcruxes Only read this if 
you want to know about horcruxes Only read this if you want to know 
about horcruxes Only read this if you want to know about horcruxes 

Ginger:

<<I think there should be 3 left.  One of the 4 that was left is now 
in LV's new body.  We know it isn't the locket, because that was 
emptied by someone other than LV.  We know it ins't Nagini because 
that one was made after his re-bodiment.  So that leaves the cup and 
Rowena's object, one of which should now be empty, having provided 
the new soul for his current body.>>

OK, I'm going to try this again, because after sleeping on it, I 
found a flaw with my original hypothesis.  Which is - according to 
what Dumbledore tells Harry in Ch. 23, it seems as if, once 
Voldemort made the sixth Horcrux (Nagini), he wasn't able to make 
any more.  I'm not sure why, exactly - perhaps Voldemort was afraid 
if he pushed it any further, the piece of soul still left in his 
body would become so small he might wind up dying as a result.

So, following this "logic," the current status of the Horcruxes are:

1. Riddle's Diary (destroyed) - btw, this was likely the "big clue" 
in CoS that JKR was fearful would reveal more than she intended at 
the time
2. Marvolo's Ring (destroyed)
3. Slytherin's Locket (I'm not entirely convinced this is destroyed; 
I don't know for sure whether RAB is Regulus Black; I think it has 
to be someone who is still alive that Harry can check with and 
confirm whether or not that Horcrux has actually been disabled or we 
have to be provided with some proof that Regulus disabled it - 
perhaps he died in the effort?)
4. Hufflepuff's Cup (yet to be found)
5. Nagini (still alive)
6. Something belonging to either Gryffindor or Ravenclaw
7. Ginger - the answer to your question (that I didn't answer 
correctly yesterday) - the piece that still lives inside Voldemort's 
body (see Dumbledore's comments in US version, p. 503, Chapter 
23:  "But firstly, no, Harry, not seven Horcruxes:  six.  The 
seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides inside his 
regenerated body.  That was the part of him that lived a spectral 
existence for so many years during his exile; without that, he has 
no self at all.  That seventh piece of soul will be the last that 
anybody wishing to kill Voldemort must attack - the piece that lives 
in his body.").  So this means that Voldemort didn't lose the piece 
of his soul that was in his body when the AK backfired, and 
therefore didn't have to replace it with one of the other Horcruxes.

After thinking about it some more, I don't think the piece of soul 
that's in a Horcrux actually moves from the Horcrux back into 
Voldemort.  I think the existence of a Horcrux outside the body 
enables the piece of soul still within the body to exist, regardless 
of the harm inflicted upon the body.  Once no more Horcruxes exist 
outside the body, however, the soul inside the body is on its own 
and the person becomes mortal again.

~Phyllis
who is still trying to sort this out, too :)





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 14:47:03 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:47:03 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dber3o+3m2v@...>
References: <dbeq4h+mec7@...> <dber3o+3m2v@...>
Message-ID: <a63632460507180747256bc9b1@...>

To the tune of "The More We Get Together":

I'm not gonna give spoilers

Give spoilers, give spoilers,

I'm not gonna give spoilers

BUT READ THE DARN BOOK!

On 7/17/05, Amanda Geist <editor at ...> wrote:
> 
>  > > s
> > > 
> > > 
> > > p
> > > 
> > > o
> > > 
> > > i
> > > 
> > > l
> > > 
> > > e
> > > 
> > > r
> > > 
> > > s
> > > 
> > > p
> > > 
> > > a
> > > 
> > > c
> > > 
> > > e
> 
> 
> > I didn't know this, but it seems reasonable that if a wand is what 
> we
> > seek, then Olivander is the man to kidnap...
> 
> Definitely. Especially since Ollivander's has been around since what, 
> 392 BC? Ollivander's ancestor probably *made* her wand.
> 
> ~Amanda
> 
> 
> 
IF LV did find Rowena's wand and used it to make a Horcrux, the Horcrux is 
already made *and* hidden - so I doubt LV & co. would kidnap Ollivander to 
*find* Rowena's wand, because it's already been found. I was under the 
impression from the book that all of the Horcruxes have already been made; 
however, it is possible that LV is still making Horcruxes, and is seeking 
Rowena's wand to make another one (perhaps one that he didn't have the 
chance to make before his downfall).

However, I'm willing to guess that Ollivander might have a way of tracking 
all the wands that have ever been sold by his shop - which may include 
Rowena's - hence the reason for his kidnapping. However, if that's the case, 
why hasn't this method been used before - for example, to find LV's wand? 

-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 14:47:53 2005
From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:47:53 -0400
Subject: Various very spoilerish responses and a further question
Message-ID: <80f25c3a0507180747293124e9@...>

SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE

I am astonishingly uncreative.

SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE

But you all knew that already.

SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE

Erm, I've run out of things to say.

SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE

Neil:
> Firstly, I would much rather HBP had started with "Spinner's End",
> and worked in Scrimgeour's entrance later on, than with the out-of-
> place "The Other Minister".  Perhaps it'll grow on me.

After this chapter, I thought it was odd that Scrimgeour didn't really
have a role in the book except to make the point that that the
Ministry is still more interested in appearances rather than results
-- which really was neither here nor there.  I did think, however,
that the chapter was an effective way of developing the atmosphere
pervading the muggle and magical world alike.

I thought "Spinner's End" took a lot of the surprise out of the death
scene.  As it was, as soon as Snape showed up, I knew he would fulfill
the vow, which somewhat deprived the scene of its emotional intensity.

> I liked the connections with CoS, particularly the parallel in the
> hold the HBP's potions book appeared to have over Harry as a
> comparison with Riddle's Diary.  I was surprised that Harry tried
> the Sectumsempra spell without knowing what the hell it did and that
> he escaped appropriate punishment, although I imagine Snape was not
> keen on the source being traced back to him.

It occurs to me that the fact that Harry'S original reaction to
Riddle's diary provides another clue pointing toward Harry as the
seventh Horcrux.  CoS ch. 13 states that "while Harry was sure he had
never seen the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean
something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when
he was very small . . . ."  More than transferring just *powers*?

I've also been mulling over the question of how to destroy a Horcrux,
since Dumbledore pointedly doesn't tell us how he destroyed the ring
and how he was hurt in the process.  Harry pierced the diary with the
basilisk's fang.  Is any breakage sufficient?  That seems much too
easy.  However, the diary was associated with the Chamber of Secrets
and the basilisk.  Perhaps each Horcrux itself has protections so that
it can only be destroyed by something -- or someone -- (or by
destroying something or someone) associated with the relic in
question.

Jo:
> OK you'd need two people to get the locket (DD said so), yet the
> boat would know if two magical people were there. So one
> witch/wizard, one muggle?
> 
> Or one house elf? Nope my money is on Black and Kreacher.

I like this!  But how much do you think that Kreacher knew about the
locket, or about its hiding place?  Could Kreacher have known that it
belonged to Salazar's descendants -- in which case he could have had
the foresight to smuggle it out to Cissy.  It would be too simple if
the locket was still at 12 GP, and Harry's more likely to remember
Mundungus' theft than Kreacher's.

I'm also beginning to wonder if R.A.B./Regulus was Snape's predecessor
as spy for the Order.  Even Fudge was aware that Dumbledore had
multiple spies.  If it was Regulus, it doesn't appear that he was
murdered because of the theft of the locket, since the fake locket and
note were still there.  (If Voldemort discovered it and left the cave
setup as a false clue, then I doubt he would've left a note saying it
was false.)  So, assuming it was Regulus, exactly what did Voldemort
discover about him, and is it important?

Amy:
> It was predictable that he'd break up with Ginny and is a measure of
> the seriousness of his feelings, but oh, Harry, puhleeze.  Voldemort
> already has plenty of people to torture in order to get at you (think
> he doesn't know about Hermione?  Ron?  Hagrid?  Lupin?  Arthur and
> Molly?), not to mention that you're is noble enough that you'd go
> into a trap to rescue *anyone,* not just someone you love.  Gather ye
> rosebuds while ye may.  But if you must do the noble thing, come back
> safe and be with Ginny at the end of the next book.  She's one
> terrific young woman.

Nah.  It's over.  As Harry said, "[i]t's been like . . . like
something out of someone else's life."  Harry isn't entitled to a
normal life -- or the accompanying earthly pleasures -- now that he's
accepted his destiny as the One.  It's not just Ginny; he's not going
back to Hogwarts next year, either and he thinks the Weasley wedding
will be one last moment of joy.  While this doesn't necessarily mean
that Harry will die in the Quest for the Missing Horifixes, if he
manages somehow to survive, will he be a new person?

The explanation he gave to Ginny was lame, but I think Ginny knows
what he really means.  As you say, she's a terrific young woman.

And, I think Hogwarts definitely *will* open next year, as they've
left the decision to the Board of Governors, and the Ministry surely
won't want to take any action that suggests they're unable to keep the
school safe.

Jo:
> On the other hand if DD is semi correct and the fourth HRX is a
> living being, who's the most typical  Gryffindor, one of the
> Weasleys perhaps, or Neville? 

Well, that would provide another explanation for Neville's memory
problems, anyway.  <g>

Debbie
who's only on chapter 1 in the reread, and hopes that completing the
reread will make her thoughts a little more coherent



From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 14:57:14 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:57:14 -0000
Subject: that question about the thingies again
In-Reply-To: <dbge69+92t1@...>
Message-ID: <dbgg0a+gj90@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" 
<erisedstraeh2002 at y...> wrote:
> Only read this if you want to know about horcruxes Only read this 
if 
> you want to know about horcruxes Only read this if you want to know 
> about horcruxes Only read this if you want to know about horcruxes 
> Only read this if you want to know about horcruxes Only read this 
if 
> you want to know about horcruxes Only read this if you want to know 
> about horcruxes Only read this if you want to know about horcruxes 

Phyllis said:
(snips)
> 1. Riddle's Diary (destroyed) 
> 2. Marvolo's Ring (destroyed)
> 3. Slytherin's Locket (Ginger notes: maybe destroyed, maybe not)
> 4. Hufflepuff's Cup (yet to be found)
> 5. Nagini (still alive)
> 6. Something belonging to either Gryffindor or Ravenclaw
> 7. Ginger - the answer to your question (that I didn't answer 
> correctly yesterday) - the piece that still lives inside 
Voldemort's 
> body 
(snips)
> After thinking about it some more, I don't think the piece of soul 
> that's in a Horcrux actually moves from the Horcrux back into 
> Voldemort.  I think the existence of a Horcrux outside the body 
> enables the piece of soul still within the body to exist, 
regardless 
> of the harm inflicted upon the body.  Once no more Horcruxes exist 
> outside the body, however, the soul inside the body is on its own 
> and the person becomes mortal again.

Ginger:
I think the light bulb has gone on.  So what you're saying then is 
that as long as there is one Horcrux outside the body, that LV can 
regenerate (for lack of a better word) as many times as he needs?

I was thinking of it like a cat's nine lives.  3 down, 6 to go.

So LV's reason for having 7 (total) isn't that he can revive 6 times, 
but that he is protected even if something happens to 5 of them and 
someone tries to kill him.

Interesting.  I'll have to ponder this more.  Thank you for 
illuminating my scalp. ;o)

Ginger, tracking down JKR interviews and slightly exhausted.





From ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 15:05:49 2005
From: ReinaKata02 at reinakata02.yahoo.invalid (Kaitlin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:05:49 -0000
Subject: HBP...just a quick comment
Message-ID: <dbgggd+20kd@...>

C
A
N
'
T

S
T
A
Y

L
O
N
G

G
O
I
N
G

O
N

V
A
C
A
T
I
O
N

I
N

3

H
O
U
R
S

I just wanted to mention one tiny Flint that I noticed...did you see 
that when Harry got the Felix Felicitis, Slughorn said it would last 
12 hours, but throughout the book he kept talking about how it was 24 
hours' worth?  

Also, (sorry if this was mentioned already), Hermione was too young 
to take the Apparation test!  In PoA (US version, pg. 57), she says 
that her birthday is in September!  So that would mean that she would 
have to take the test with Harry...

Got to run.  Cheers!
Kaitlin
 





From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 15:08:09 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:08:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Various very spoilerish responses and a further question
In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0507180747293124e9@...>
Message-ID: <20050718150809.86905.qmail@...>

SPOILER 

SPACE

IN WHICH I CONFESS

THAT I'VE NOT

YET READ ALL 

THE OTC POSTS

BECAUSE I ONLY FINISHED

THE BOOK LAST EVENING AT 8:00.

PLEASE INSERT USUAL "Forgive me if..." REMARK

AT THIS POINT



elfundeb wrote:
I thought "Spinner's End" took a lot of the surprise
out of the death scene.  As it was, as soon as Snape
showed up, I knew he would fulfill the vow, which
somewhat deprived the scene of its emotional
intensity.

SSSusan:
Did you realize, Debbie (others?), that the vow was
about killing DUMBLEDORE?  If you did, I'm amazed.  In
my case, I assumed all along it was a vow to help
Draco kill Harry.  

As for Spinner's End [and *when* did she add in that
blasted apostrophe that was throwing us all off for
months?!?], I just didn't like the chapter at all.  It
could be that it was 2:45 am and I was sleepy, but it
just didn't read like JKR to me.  In fact, I felt like
I was reading -- in style and content -- somebody's
(rather unremarkable) fanfic.  

Wormtail cowering on the steps of Snape's house? 
Narcissa clinging to Snape, begging his help?  Bella
asking all the oh-so-convenient questions and Snape
answering them in order ["Tick, that takes care of fan
complaint one; tick, that takes care of fan concern
two; tick, ...."] That hokey-feeling ceremony?  Ugh. 
I just had real reservations at that point.

In the end, I thought she came around nicely and gave
a story I could really enjoy and sink my teeth into,
but I was worried after chapter two.


Jo:
> Or one house elf? Nope my money is on Black and 
> Kreacher.

Debbie:
I like this!  But how much do you think that Kreacher
knew about the locket, or about its hiding place?  

SSSusan:
Is there a reason we should assume that Regulus (if
we're right about that, and I think we are) *didn't*
destroy the locket?  


Debbie:
So, assuming it was Regulus, exactly what did
Voldemort
discover about him, and is it important?

SSSusan:
I guess I imagined it that Regulus made his decision
to leave Voldy and wanted to do something big to
thwart him before doing so.  Hence the switcheroo on
the lockets and (I'm assuming) destruction of the real
locket.  I don't think it's necessary for Voldy to
have discovered that Regulus did this, but just that
he knew Regulus was disloyal and planned to leave, so
he had him killed for that alone.

Siriusly Snapey Susan








From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 15:15:41 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:15:41 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP...just a quick comment
In-Reply-To: <dbgggd+20kd@...>
References: <dbgggd+20kd@...>
Message-ID: <a636324605071808157a6518e2@...>

On 7/18/05, Kaitlin <ReinaKata02 at ...> wrote:
> 
>  C
> A
> N
> '
> T
> 
> S
> T
> A
> Y
> 
> L
> O
> N
> G
> 
> G
> O
> I
> N
> G
> 
> O
> N
> 
> V
> A
> C
> A
> T
> I
> O
> N
> 
> I
> N
> 
> 3
> 
> H
> O
> U
> R
> S
> 
> I just wanted to mention one tiny Flint that I noticed...did you see 
> that when Harry got the Felix Felicitis, Slughorn said it would last 
> 12 hours, but throughout the book he kept talking about how it was 24 
> hours' worth? 
> 
> Also, (sorry if this was mentioned already), Hermione was too young 
> to take the Apparation test! In PoA (US version, pg. 57), she says 
> that her birthday is in September! So that would mean that she would 
> have to take the test with Harry...
> 
> Got to run. Cheers!
> Kaitlin
> 
> 
Actually, JKR has confirmed that Hermione is older than both Harry and Ron; 
she'll turn 18 at the start of Book 7. She turned 12 in Sorcerer's Stone.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 15:23:39 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:23:39 -0000
Subject: Innocent question
Message-ID: <dbghhr+102hb@...>

No spoilers here, though replies necessarily involve them.

I was looking again at GOF, and noticed that as Harry relates the 
adventure in the graveyard to Dumbledore, and mentions that a sample 
of his blood was required for the rebirthing potion, there is a 
momentary gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye.

Is there anything in HBP that casts light on what that is about?

David





From dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 15:36:24 2005
From: dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid (dorbandb)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:36:24 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dbfamm+919k@...>
Message-ID: <dbgi9o+mn7g@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> 
> MORE
> SPOILER
> SPACE
> MORE
> SPOILER
> SPACE
> MORE
> SPOILER
> SPACE
> MORE
> SPOILER
> SPACE
> MORE
> SPOILER
> SPACE
> MORE
> SPOILER
> SPACE
> 
> Brian:
> 
> > I didn't know this, but it seems reasonable that if a wand is what
> we
> > seek, then Olivander is the man to kidnap...
> > 
> > ...as to the other three...Canon says that Amelia and Evangeline are
> > dead.  That may or may not turn out to be true, but for now, it's
> > canon.  And, other than ensuring a lifetime of sweet treats, I can't
> > imagine what use V would have for Florean...jus' dunno.
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Beg to differ. IIRC, Dumbledore never says that Emmeline Vance is
> dead.


Brian:
But Fudge does when he's speaking with the other minister - "I've been
having the same week you have, Prime Minister.  The Brockdale
Bridge...the Bones and Vance murders..." (P.4, US edition) These are
certainly the same murders that the other minister calls "very nasty
and well-publicized..." (p.2 US)  Granted, it may be that they were
faked, but we have no real indication of that at this point.  










From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 15:57:09 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:57:09 -0000
Subject: that question about the thingies again (spoilers!)
In-Reply-To: <dbgg0a+gj90@...>
Message-ID: <dbgjgl+5km3@...>

more horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more 
horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more 
horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more 
horcruxes 

Ginger:

<<I think the light bulb has gone on.  So what you're saying then is 
that as long as there is one Horcrux outside the body, that LV can 
regenerate (for lack of a better word) as many times as he needs?>>

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say! :)  I'm glad it was 
clear - I feel the same way about Horcruxes as I felt when I was 
trying to wrap my brain around how time turners work ...

Ginger:

<<So LV's reason for having 7 (total) isn't that he can revive 6 
times, but that he is protected even if something happens to 5 of 
them and someone tries to kill him.>>

Yes, exactly! And we've already seen that he had good reason to 
create more than one, as the ring, diary and possibly the locket 
have already been destroyed.

~Phyllis






From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:01:44 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:01:44 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Innocent question
In-Reply-To: <dbghhr+102hb@...>
Message-ID: <001001c58bb1$fe62b080$0200a8c0@hwin>

David divined,

> I was looking again at GOF, and noticed that as Harry relates the
> adventure in the graveyard to Dumbledore, and mentions that a sample 
> of his blood was required for the rebirthing potion, there is a 
> momentary gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye.

Wow! Did you catch that too?? I tought I was the only one.

And you know what else - I think Ron has the hots for Hermione!

**AND** I'll betcha anything Harry and Ginny are gonna get it on!!!!

Am I, like, one heckuvan observer or what??

No money, just cash. Thanks.

* * * * *

Spoiler space hereby over. Continue to read at risk to your own piece of
mind, wherever you've hidden it.

* * * * * 

Oh - one other innocent question: could make the spoiler space a
permanent institution? 

* * * * *

Anyway, back to the topic.

I was wondering about that too.

Not directly, I don't think. I still think that the blood has something
to do with creating an underlying dependency on or debt to Harry, which
belongs to the kind of magic Voldie doesn't understand and which will
come home to roost. But it seems like that one's been on the back burner
over the last two books.

One thing that did come to mind was that the blood thing first tipped
Dumbledore off that Voldemort was relying on those evil magical Gore
Ducks, or whatever they're called. But that doesn't really add up - it
seems like any other aspect of the re-birthing process could have told
him just as much.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who agrees that that word isn't one
of Jo's more felicitous inventions.) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:05:31 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:05:31 -0000
Subject: Lily & Potions (was: More First Impressions_
In-Reply-To: <dbg1n9+8laf@...>
Message-ID: <dbgk0b+nbup@...>

Eloise:  
> I assumed that love potions were going to play a more serious role in 
> the plot. Perhaps that's next time. Perhaps that has to do with 
> the "Why would anyone want Snape in love with them?" answer. Snape 
> doses Lily and when she finds out she turns to James? He propelled 
> her into his arms?
> 
> There was an awful lot about how good Lily was at Potions, too, which 
> I guess will be significant. I find it strange that Slughorn (love 
> the name!) didn't recognise Severus' hand in Harry's work, that he 
> kept comparing it instead to Lily's. After all, until now we've been 
> led to believe that Lily's talent was Charms.
>

SSSusan:
I agree -- Lily's apparently extraordinary talent with Potions seemed 
very out-of-the-blue.  Does it MEAN anything for the story?  Does it 
MEAN anything for the possibility of LOLLIPOPS?  Would Snape have found 
himself drawn to someone (even a "Mudblood") who had an apparently 
natural affinity for Potions, as he did?

Siriusly Snapey Susan... who's not quite sure how she feels about her 
moniker at the moment.  






From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:14:43 2005
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (Constance Vigilance)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:14:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: that question about the thingies again (spoilers!)
In-Reply-To: <dbgjgl+5km3@...>
Message-ID: <20050718161444.95102.qmail@...>

Phooey on spoiler space. Everybody has read the book or they wouldn't be here, right?
 
We found out from CoS that the bit of person in a horcrux can take on a life of their own. They can connect with a person and vampire their life force to become a living person on their own. With that in mind, I presume that when the horcrux person gets a body, they can then split themselves off into more horcruxes? Can you say Revenge of the Clones?  Ewww!
 
While I doubt Jo had this scenario in mind, we actually have more evidence that it is a possibility. While Vapormort was floating around in Albania living off rats and whatever, he was slowly rejuvenating. He had actually gotten to Ugly!Baby status under the careful husbandry of Wormtail. What if the other horcruxes are making their way into corporal status under the radar?
 
Thoughts?
 
CV

Phyllis <erisedstraeh2002 at ...> wrote:
more horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more 
horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more 
horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more horcruxes more 
horcruxes 

Ginger:

<<I think the light bulb has gone on.  So what you're saying then is 
that as long as there is one Horcrux outside the body, that LV can 
regenerate (for lack of a better word) as many times as he needs?>>

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say! :)  I'm glad it was 
clear - I feel the same way about Horcruxes as I felt when I was 
trying to wrap my brain around how time turners work ...

Ginger:

<<So LV's reason for having 7 (total) isn't that he can revive 6 
times, but that he is protected even if something happens to 5 of 
them and someone tries to kill him.>>

Yes, exactly! And we've already seen that he had good reason to 
create more than one, as the ring, diary and possibly the locket 
have already been destroyed.

~Phyllis


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:29:25 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:29:25 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dbgi9o+mn7g@...>
Message-ID: <dbgld5+gc7b@...>

SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
> > Pippin:
> > Beg to differ. IIRC, Dumbledore never says that Emmeline Vance is
> > dead.
> 
> 
> Brian:
> But Fudge does when he's speaking with the other minister - "I've
been
> having the same week you have, Prime Minister.  The Brockdale
> Bridge...the Bones and Vance murders..." (P.4, US edition) These are
> certainly the same murders that the other minister calls "very nasty
> and well-publicized..." (p.2 US)  Granted, it may be that they were
> faked, but we have no real indication of that at this point.

Pippin:
But the Vance murder is the one the Order could have known about in
advance, seeing as how it took place on Snape's information. Not that
that lets Snape off the hook, necessarily. Voldemort could have let
the Order rescue Vance in order to reinforce their trust in Snape. 
Of all the deaths we've heard of, that is the one most likely to have 
been faked--with the large exception of the old man himself...
Hmm, don't  suppose he had a bezoar in his pocket, and maybe a 
phial of phoenix tears and a little going away present from old 
Nicholas F as well, do you?

Swig it all  on the way down, recover instantly,
transform into a flying insect animagus, land softly, accio the wand, 
transfigure a handy rock into the corpse du jour, complete with the 
 "I AIN'TNT DEAD" trickle of blood which Harry not so helpfully wiped 
away, and stick around to watch the show. Most entertaining.

Needs an acronym. How about SAD DENIAL II --Supposing Albus
Dumbledore, Dire Events Negated, Is Actually Living, Is Irresistible.


Pippin





From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:44:52 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:44:52 +0200
Subject: How does he know?
In-Reply-To: <dbfpgs+ah4r@...>
Message-ID: <001401c58bb8$05727e40$0200a8c0@hwin>

Spoiler, Spoiler
Pudding and pie,
Kissed [name/s removed]
And made [him/her/them] cry.*

When the boys/girls
Ran out to play,
Spoiler, Spoiler
Turned out to be [...]!!

*Please note that "cry" makes it unlikely that Spoiler is a dementor,
since the Kissed cannot cry.

* * * * * 

Save the Spoilers!

* * * * *

OK, so how does Dumbledore *know* that Snape is true?

I mean, obviously, he saved both Dumbledore and Malfoy from fates worse
than death by giving Dumbledore the bump, so there's no question about
it now. But how did Dumbledore know *before* Snape proved his loyalty?

I spent a big chunk of the afternoon talking Potter with my neighbor, a
Catholic theologian and Harry Potter fan. She has a girl Natascha's age,
she's my wife's best friend, and her partner and I lined up to get our
copies together. I've enjoyed talking Potter with both of them for
years.

Anway, we got onto the topic this afternoon and ran across a theory you
guys have surely already figured out - but I thought I would try it out
here.

1. Snape loved Lily.
2. Snape gave Voldie with the provision that Lily would be spared -
perhaps even that he could drag Lily back to his cave.
3. Voldie broke his promise, though he did sort of almost give Lily a
chance.
4. Snape realized what he had done and came to Dumbledore a broken man.
5. Dumbledore's penance: Snape is to remain among the Death eaters as a
spy.

I like this theory a lot. I had noticed someone's suggestion that an
Unbreakable Oath with Dumbledore may have done the job, and that might
be part of it, but this seems like the kind of context Jo would like.
Dumbledore does not, ultimately, rely on magic but on his knowledge of
the human heart.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:45:45 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:45:45 +0200
Subject: How does he know?
In-Reply-To: <dbgld5+gc7b@...>
Message-ID: <001501c58bb8$24af03a0$0200a8c0@hwin>

Spoiler, Spoiler
Pudding and pie,
Kissed [name/s removed]
And made [him/her/them] cry.*

When the boys/girls
Ran out to play,
Spoiler, Spoiler
Turned out to be [...]!!




*Please note that "cry" makes it unlikely that Spoiler is a dementor,
since the Kissed cannot cry.



* * * * * 

Save the Spoilers!

* * * * *

OK, so how does Dumbledore *know* that Snape is true?

I mean, obviously, he saved both Dumbledore and Malfoy from fates worse
than death by giving Dumbledore the bump, so there's no question about
it now. But how did Dumbledore know *before* Snape proved his loyalty?

I spent a big chunk of the afternoon talking Potter with my neighbor, a
Catholic theologian and Harry Potter fan. She has a girl Natascha's age,
she's my wife's best friend, and her partner and I lined up to get our
copies together. I've enjoyed talking Potter with both of them for
years.

Anway, we got onto the topic this afternoon and ran across a theory you
guys have surely already figured out - but I thought I would try it out
here.

1. Snape loved Lily.
2. Snape gave Voldie with the provision that Lily would be spared -
perhaps even that he could drag Lily back to his cave. 3. Voldie broke
his promise, though he did sort of almost give Lily a chance. 4. Snape
realized what he had done and came to Dumbledore a broken man. 5.
Dumbledore's penance: Snape is to remain among the Death eaters as a
spy.

I like this theory a lot. I had noticed someone's suggestion that an
Unbreakable Oath with Dumbledore may have done the job, and that might
be part of it, but this seems like the kind of context Jo would like.
Dumbledore does not, ultimately, rely on magic but on his knowledge of
the human heart.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:47:15 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:47:15 -0000
Subject: HBP whip-round
In-Reply-To: <20050718035643.GB29882@...>
Message-ID: <dbgmej+dcpc@...>

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewetoo at g...> wrote:
> Catlady:
> I remain irritated at the Tonks red herring -- I really thought 
she was
> someone else using Polyjuice and THAT was why the imposter couldn't
> metamorphmage like she can; JKR can make excuses for her 
gloominess and loss
> of abilities, but WHERE DID HER CLUMSINESS GO? Tonks can't walk 
down the hall
> at 12 Grimmauld Place without tripping over an unbrella stand and 
wakening Mrs
> Black, but she can jump off a moving train at Hogsmeade and land 
on her feet?
> 
> This was a DING! moment that went horribly wrong with that weak 
shippy
> explaination. Consider that JKR had *just* posted her FAQ poll 
answer with the
> specific phrase: "Patronuses are unique to each wizard". Nowhere 
does she say
> "except when they fall in love". It does NOT compute, and I'm glad 
someone
> else is jarred by it.

Yes, I was really struck by that too.  Odd that JKR chose the DAY 
BEFORE the HBP release to post that particular bit of info.

She really does like to push our buttons, doesn't she?

--JZC





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:54:07 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:54:07 -0000
Subject: Nothing But Spoilers, of course
In-Reply-To: <dber61+gsd5@...>
Message-ID: <dbgmrf+hms5@...>

<spoiler space>
Upon a time a Surrey lad
Learned he was a wizard, like his dad.
He went to school and learned to spell
And fight the bad guy very well.
At age sixteen he headed back
And so we now know myth from fact:
His DADA teacher was (excised)
His team in Quidditch (blank) the prize.
He got (some number of) OWLs
And learned a lot of (something) spells.
The Half-Blood Prince, that man of mystery,
Was (whatsisface); that much is history.
Harry traveled with (Professor X)
And put on (whosit) a risky hex.
Did someone die?  Did someone sicken?
Stop this crazy game of chicken.
Who kissed whom, or were they celibate?
Are you still here just for the hell of it?
Do not risk another look,
Turn this off and read your book!
</spoiler space>

I asked:

> << Where is everyone getting Regulus's middle name from? >>

And Rita replied:
 
> JKR has established by example that in her world, wizarding folk 
give
> the oldest son the father's name as a middle name, the oldest 
daughter
> the mother's name as a middle name, and another son the uncle's name
> as a middle name (Ronald Bilius Weasley after Uncle Bilius who saw a
> Grim and died). Sirius's Uncle Alphard was Regulus's Uncle Alphard.
> QED.

Not QED, just plausible.  (You don't even need the Potter and Weasley 
families to illustrate the practice of giving the eldest their 
parents' names and younger siblings aunts' and uncles' names; Muggles 
tend to do the same thing.)  

It's not as though we even need to know Regulus's middle name; his 
having been a Death Eather with the initials RB is quite sufficient 
to establish a probability that he's the note-leaver.  I just like to 
know whether we're talking about speculation or a known fact.

Rita again:
 
> In any case, I don't understand how Hermione only got 11 OWLs when
> Bill and Percy got 12. She has been established as an unusually
> outstanding student that doesn't come along as often as every 4 
years.

I wondered the same.  Maybe Percy and Bill took a subject that is no 
longer offered.  Or maybe it's JKR's notorious innumeracy again.

However, one thing JKR is fantastic at is weaving mysteries, so I'm 
going to defend her on this point:

>  I remain irritated at the Tonks
> red herring 

Red herrings are irritating by nature, but what would a mystery be in 
which every great big glaring clue actually led to something?  
Sometimes the Christie character with a guilty secret is neither 
murderer nor blackmailer, but simply adulterer.  Sometimes a mouth 
organ is just a mouth organ (speaking of clues we need to follow up 
on--Horcrux, anyone?).

> but WHERE
> DID HER CLUMSINESS GO? Tonks can't walk down the hall at 12 
Grimmauld
> Place without tripping over an unbrella stand and wakening Mrs 
Black,
> but she can jump off a moving train at Hogsmeade and land on her 
feet?

Good catch.  Kind of makes you wonder if there's still a Tonks-
connected twist coming along, doesn't it?  It could be a Polyjuice!
Tonks, or she could be Imperius'd.  Everyone knows being under 
Imperius makes you much more coordinated.  <<--SPECULATION ALERT.  
HUMOR ATTEMPT IN PROGRESS.  DO NOT TAKE LITERALLY OR SEARCH LEXICON 
FOR EVIDENCE.

Or maybe it's being in love that makes you more coordinated.

> Can some combination of SAD DENIAL and WOLFSTAR result in 'Tonks' is
> Sirius using Polyjuice?

Aha!  S/R lives!

:-D
Amy Z C

---------------------------------------------------------------------
  "We've risked a lot to help Hagrid out, but after all--Aragog's 
dead.  If it were a question of saving him--"
  "--I'd want to go even less," said Ron firmly.  "You didn't meet 
him, Hermione.  Believe me, being dead will have improved him a lot."
                                           --HP and the HBP





From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 16:58:04 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:58:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP whip-round
In-Reply-To: <dbgmej+dcpc@...>
Message-ID: <20050718165804.78678.qmail@...>

I'm leavin' this in bec. I like it:
---------------------------------
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah

> Catlady:
> I remain irritated at the Tonks red herring -- I
really thought she was someone else using Polyjuice
and THAT was why the imposter couldn't metamorphmage
like she can; JKR can make excuses for her 
gloominess and loss of abilities, but WHERE DID HER
CLUMSINESS GO? 

Joywitch:
> This was a DING! moment that went horribly wrong
with that weak shippy explaination. Consider that JKR
had *just* posted her FAQ poll answer with the
> specific phrase: "Patronuses are unique to each
wizard". Nowhere does she say "except when they fall
in love". It does NOT compute, and I'm glad someone
> else is jarred by it.


SSSusan:
Me, too, Catlady.  I confess (though it likely will
make me look tres stupide) that I thought Tonks &
Sirius might have changed places before the MoM battle
and that it was TONKS who went through the veil and
thus Sirius who was attempting to carry himself off at
Tonks.

I mean, it's stupid, but I couldn't figure out why
else she had a four-legged patronus (that looked a bit
like a dog in GrandPre's illustration) and that she
couldn't metamorph (verb?) any longer.

I'm actually GLAD it wasn't Sirius, but the thought
crossed my mind.  It was a rather strange bit of the
story.

Siriusly Snapey Susan




From dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 17:00:56 2005
From: dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid (dorbandb)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:00:56 -0000
Subject: HBP: Spoiler: the 4
In-Reply-To: <dbgld5+gc7b@...>
Message-ID: <dbgn88+1quk@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> SPOILER SPACE
> 
> Pippin:
 
> Of all the deaths we've heard of, that is the one most likely to have 
> been faked--with the large exception of the old man himself...


Brian:
I don't disagree that these murders *could* have been faked - I'm just
relying on what is says in the book.  As you point out below, just
about anything *could* happen....especially where DD is concerned.

> Hmm, don't  suppose he had a bezoar in his pocket, and maybe a 
> phial of phoenix tears and a little going away present from old 
> Nicholas F as well, do you?

Brian:
Maybe all those things - maybe not too.

> 
> Swig it all  on the way down, recover instantly,
> transform into a flying insect animagus, land softly, accio the
>wand, transfigure a handy rock into the corpse du jour, complete with
>the "I AIN'TNT DEAD" trickle of blood which Harry not so helpfully
>wiped away, and stick around to watch the show. Most entertaining.

Brian:
Definitely entertaining (and ain't that what Herself does
oh-so-well?), and certainly plausible (heck, in this universe, what
*isn't* plausible) - but there's no evidence as yet to say anything
other than what canon says: Bones and Vance have been murdered,
Fortescu and Olivander are MIA (through unspecified means) and
Dumbledore is dead, having been AK'ed by Snape.  Simple as that.  I
know that I'm being very literal here - even obstinately so (mostly
because I'm not clever enough to be otherwise) -  but canon says what
it says, and until it says something else, I'm obligated to believe
what it currently says. 

> 
> Needs an acronym. How about SAD DENIAL II --Supposing Albus
> Dumbledore, Dire Events Negated, Is Actually Living, Is Irresistible.
> 
> 
> Pippin

Brian:
I do love your acronyms, Pippin.  How do you do that?!?!?








From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 17:22:45 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:22:45 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
Message-ID: <dbgoh5+1je9@...>

SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!
SPOILERS BELOW!  

This is my rant-after-the-first-read. Nothing very interesting, 
probably, but I need to get this out of my system.

This is the first time I'm really disappointed with an HP book. I'm 
not disappointed because Snape turned out the ESE (I never thought he 
is a good person, and he still remains a complex character). I'm not 
disappointed because there wasn't a "good Slytherin" (I personally 
never needed one). I'm not disappointed because of the excessive 
shipping (never been allergic to it), I'm not disappointed because 
she killed DD (although I kind of hoped she'd avoid this specific 
clich?) and not because all my theories were shot down (I was 
prepared for that).

No, the reason I'm disappointed with HBP is simply because most of 
it, IMHO, is sub-par. It's poorly written, relative to JKR's 
standards. Am I the only one who feels that way? I frequently had the 
feeling like I was reading FF and not the real thing. To say that 
this book was under-edited would be a big compliment. I think the 
editors should have told JKR to take her time, do an extensive 
rewrite and get back to them in another 6 months, or maybe a year. 
Well, I guess publicity finally went to JKR's head, or the editors 
didn't dare criticize her, or they were under pressure to finish 
quickly.

The plot was simply all over the place. No proper buildup of 
suspence, no dramatic flow and rhythm, plot devices felt artificial. 
Many important things were spelled out instead of implied by dialogue 
and description. Most of the book was emotionally flat. For example ? 
Harry accepting Kreacher that easily simply wasn't realistic. Another 
example: Snape finally got his wish to teach DADA, and apart from the 
very first, none of the lessons is described at all. You'd expect 
damned *fireworks* between Snape and Harry when they finally meet in 
DADA, but nothing. HBP has almost no captivating sections like 
(counting from OotP alone): the DA meeting, the close ward scene, 
Occulomency, Snape's worst memory, the anti-Umbrige rebellion, etc., 
and also no killer location like the DoM.

The mystery plot: I'll have to re-read to make sure, but after my 
first reading it seems to me that there are several big holes in the 
plot. For example, why didn't Harry suspect even once during the 
whole year that the Half-Blood Prince is Snape? I mean, who do we 
know that is good at Potions and has a small cramped handwriting? 
Cm'on! I suspected Snape from the first second and hoped for a long 
time that in the end it would turn out to be someone unexpected. No 
such luck. 

Shipping: Like I wrote above, I'm not averted to shipping, and I've 
predicted all three ships in HBP a long time ago, so I should be 
content, right? Wrong. It is possible to write good shipping and bad 
shipping, and most of the HBP shipping was very poor. It felt like 
typical teen FF. After 5 books Harry finally notices Ginny, and 
there's no tension buildup, no colossal rows, no real angst, no 
heartache, no dramatic/tragic revelation. Every single summersault of 
Harry's insides over Cho in GoF was more realistic and powerful than 
that. R/H on the other hand have lots of rows and angst, of exactly 
the same type they have in every book only much more of it, and by 
the end of the book they still haven't done anything about it. Kind 
of starting getting on your nerves. The L/T has done much better, 
probably because it featured much less in the story.   

The horcuxes: it's a nice plot device, similar to several ideas that 
came up here. The problem is: 95% of it is based on completely new 
information. It couldn't have been deduced in any way from what we 
knew before. So what's the point in having any theories at all? And 
the secrets of the remaining horcruxes' identities and places? Can it 
be deuced from what we know now? I wouldn't bet money on it. 

Baddies: No Voldy except in old memories. Bella and Narcissa having a 
family argument in one redundant chapter. Three or four completely 
new DEs and a werewolf we know nothing of and don't care much about. 
I guess Snape was the compensation, but except for that last AK and 
the subsequent chase his performances in HBP are pretty mild.   

Movie contamination: At least one clear case - in the books Hermione 
had never punched Draco. She'd *slapped* him.

Characters: JKR invents a whole horde of new characters, which 
necessarily come on the expense of continuing the development of old 
ones. Why was there any need to replace Fudge with Scrimgeur just to 
fill approximately the same function? Neville, Moody and the Creevys 
brothers were completely neglected. Bill, Luna, Dean, Lavender and 
Hagrid are there but merely as plot devices.  Percy gets half a scene 
that doesn't develop the story in any way. Ginny's exclusion from the 
trio just doesn't sound realistic:  would a determined girl like that 
agree, practically without argument, to be excluded from the secrets 
kept by her boyfriend, her brother and her best female friend? Not 
bloody likely.

What just barely saved HBP for me are the last chapters: the battle, 
the chase and the funeral. They were at least captivating. I also 
think I like the new Draco: he's much more complex yet not an 
unrealistically "good Slytherin". And we got a new acronym to occupy 
us in the next two years. Many ingenious new names and nicknames, 
too ? Phlegm and Won-won really cracked me up. But if JKR thinks it's 
enough to invent a few cool names and anybody would worship her 
again, well she's wrong about me, at least. She forgot the hard work 
part.  

Well, I hope this impression will improve in a second read. It did 
with OotP.

Neri






From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 17:41:25 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:41:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Nothing But Spoilers, of course
In-Reply-To: <dbgmrf+hms5@...>
Message-ID: <20050718174125.66270.qmail@...>

Bouncy

   bouncy 

      bouncety, 

         bounce.

But whatever his weight in pounds, shillings and ounces,
He always seems bigger because of his bounces.

Stealing from AA Milne, as I cannot compete with the wit of one AZC 


CAPSLOCK!Rita cried, 


> > but WHERE
> > DID HER CLUMSINESS GO? Tonks can't walk down the hall at 12 
> Grimmauld
> > Place without tripping over an unbrella stand and wakening Mrs 
> Black,
> > but she can jump off a moving train at Hogsmeade and land on her 
> feet?

Infected CAPSLOCK!Amy replied:

> Good catch.  Kind of makes you wonder if there's still a Tonks-
> connected twist coming along, doesn't it?  It could be a Polyjuice!
> Tonks, or she could be Imperius'd.  Everyone knows being under 
> Imperius makes you much more coordinated.  <<--SPECULATION ALERT.  
> HUMOR ATTEMPT IN PROGRESS.  DO NOT TAKE LITERALLY OR SEARCH LEXICON 
> FOR EVIDENCE.

Please, no more Polyjuice!

I think it could be as simple as this:  Tonks is Tigger (acronym obvious).

When happy, confident, high spirited and enthusiastic, Tonks is full of exuberance and bounce,
which brings out clumsy tendencies.

When miserable, and lovelorn, she is lackadaisical, half hearted and consequently calmer.  Losing
her bounce, she loses her clumsiness.

Catherine, taking her mind off more serious matters, by thinking silly things.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 18:32:30 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:32:30 -0000
Subject: HBP whip-round
In-Reply-To: <20050718165804.78678.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbgsju+5pjs@...>

spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage
spoilage

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Susan Albrecht 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:

> 
> > Catlady:
> > I remain irritated at the Tonks red herring -- I
> really thought she was someone else using Polyjuice
> and THAT was why the imposter couldn't metamorphmage
> like she can; JKR can make excuses for her 
> gloominess and loss of abilities, but WHERE DID HER
> CLUMSINESS GO? 
> 
> Joywitch:
> > This was a DING! moment that went horribly wrong
> with that weak shippy explaination. Consider that JKR
> had *just* posted her FAQ poll answer with the
> > specific phrase: "Patronuses are unique to each
> wizard". Nowhere does she say "except when they fall
> in love". It does NOT compute, and I'm glad someone
> > else is jarred by it.
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> Me, too, Catlady.  I confess (though it likely will
> make me look tres stupide) that I thought Tonks &
> Sirius might have changed places before the MoM battle
> and that it was TONKS who went through the veil and
> thus Sirius who was attempting to carry himself off at
> Tonks.
> 
> I mean, it's stupid, but I couldn't figure out why
> else she had a four-legged patronus (that looked a bit
> like a dog in GrandPre's illustration) and that she
> couldn't metamorph (verb?) any longer.
> 
> I'm actually GLAD it wasn't Sirius, but the thought
> crossed my mind.  It was a rather strange bit of the
> story.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

Well I was completely left fielded by this one, then not big on 
ships I thought I'd just missed something. However, it did cross my 
mind that it is a piece of 'given but disguised' information. We 
know that patroni (-uses whatever) are unique and we know JK hasn't 
told us Snape's 'cos it would be a dead give away, and now she's 
told us indirectly that they are not fixed. So those of the sneaky 
disposition could perhaps manipulate their patronus to imply fealty 
where there is none. Or if the patronus cannot be willed to a given 
form it might be indicative of a true change of 
heart/redemption/condemnation. 

In other words we've got enough information to tie ourselves up in 
something more tangle worthy than a NEWT class binding spell. Not, 
however, enough information to rule out conflicting possibilities
..

I'm not bitter!

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.







From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 19:08:45 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:08:45 -0000
Subject: Amanda's 10-step DE-reformation program, was Re: How does he know?
In-Reply-To: <001401c58bb8$05727e40$0200a8c0@hwin>
Message-ID: <dbgunt+sfe0@...>

I cannot write in Potterverse
I shouldn't even try
For it will go from Snape to worse
And make poor readers cry

And hypocritical, it is
To write it anyway
For surely it is fanfic too
Which I shove fast away.

Okay, that should be enough.

I second whomever's motion to make this spoiler space permanent. It's 
becoming an art form.

The Goat bleated:

> OK, so how does Dumbledore *know* that Snape is true?
> 
> I mean, obviously, he saved both Dumbledore and Malfoy from fates 
worse
> than death by giving Dumbledore the bump, so there's no question 
about
> it now. But how did Dumbledore know *before* Snape proved his 
loyalty?
> 
> 1. Snape loved Lily.
> 2. Snape gave Voldie with the provision that Lily would be spared -
> perhaps even that he could drag Lily back to his cave.
> 3. Voldie broke his promise, though he did sort of almost give Lily 
a
> chance.
> 4. Snape realized what he had done and came to Dumbledore a broken 
man.
> 5. Dumbledore's penance: Snape is to remain among the Death eaters 
as a
> spy.

ARGH. See? See? That was my whole timeline problem. Dumbledore told 
the Wizengamot (or whoever was assembled) in GoF, that Snape 
rejoined "our" side before LV's downfall. Your sequence above has 
Snape rejoining our side *after.* It won't work.

I think it was Pippin, suggested that the key lies in the interval 
between Snape-the-true-DE reporting the prophecy to LV, and LV making 
good on his Potter plans. Here's my adjustment

1. Snape loved Lily. (well, duh. Insert Amanda's favorite version of 
the theory here.)
2. Snape, still true DE, gave Voldie the prophecy without realizing 
it had the potential to put Lily in peril. (How many people keep up 
with old flames well enough to realize they're pregnant or when they 
are expected to deliver, even if said old flames are *not* on the 
other side in a serious conflict and probably not people you run into 
on the street everyday?)
3. LV does the data gathering, which points him to the Longbottoms 
and the Potters.
4. LV tells key DEs what his plans are. Off the kids and their 
families and their goldfish and anyone else in the way.
5. Snape realizes Lily is toast. Asks LV to spare her for him, but 
probably realizes LV's predeliction to do whatever the hell he 
pleases, so her chances are small.
6. Snape goes to Dumbledore, becomes spy; and therefore we also now 
have...
7. Snape is the source of the information that the Potters are in 
danger. OR he confirms it.
8. LV fails to find the Potters for rather a long time. At least 15 
months + however many months the prophecy preceded Harry's birth.
9. Wormtail rats. (I'm so sorry, but I couldn't resist.)
10. LV attacks Potters, with resultant Official First Downfall.

Okay, this is the only way I can see, at the moment, for Snape to 
have been both the spy in the Hog's Head, AND to have rejoined our 
side before LV's downfall. I realize that there may have been some 
other trigger than what I postulate in numbers 4 & 5, but I think the 
basic timeline is right.

~Amandageist







From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 19:09:59 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:09:59 -0000
Subject: A trivial question
Message-ID: <dbguq7+ulog@...>

SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE

Did I miss something significant or is there a reason why Slughorn's 
little gatherings stopped? Surely not just so that Harry didn't have an 
opportunity to ask him about Horcruxes?


~Eloise






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 19:10:40 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:10:40 +0100
Subject: TBAY - SLIGHT RASH (slightly spoilerish, too)
Message-ID: <EB9DE7A4-6891-4E30-BA69-167A18D4662B@...>

Got to fill some space somehow.
Don't need much though.
Dum
De
Dum
Dee
Dee
'Twill suffice.



"Not so bad as last time."
Those with any sense of self-preservation had dived for secure hidey- 
holes at the imminent prospect of Hurricane Jo; The Sequel - "And  
this time I mean it." Kneasy had taken the precaution of lashing  
himself to the grog-barrel from the ESE!Sirius construct reasoning  
that a salver would reckon the barrel was worth saving even if he  
wasn't.

The construct had been battered but not totally demolished,  
character's opinions being less destructive than definitive canon- 
shots. Still, the storm surge had carried him far from his usual  
patch among the detritus at the high-water mark, and the water- 
logged, barely floating ramshackle agglomeration was nudging a  
stretch of beach he didn't recognise.

Loosing himself, he then struggled ashore, hampered still by the  
handicap of Snape!Son clamped ferociously to his left leg. He looked  
down.

"So you survived too, didya? Good boy. You'll make me famous yet."

The diminutive tot smiled gummily up at him, releasing a cascade of  
drool that slid down into Kneasy's once-fashionable footware.

"Wonder where we are? Nobody about, still shelterin' I expect. Need  
to find some civilisation - and I could murder a bacon sarnie."

Puffing and blowing he negotiated the dunes behind the beach and  
found himself on a ridge looking down on a  small hamlet. Just a few  
yards away the coast road offered an easy access to the huddle of  
houses and with a few mutterings and curses he soon found himself  
outside the local Owl Office. Still no signs of life, however there  
was an information board with a map. As he approached, miniscule  
writing above an arrow appeared on it -

"You are here. And if you want my advice you'll go somewhere else as  
soon as possible. Further information and dire prognostications can  
be obtained from the "Speak Your Fate" animated oracle (TM Trelawney  
Enterprises, motto "Why fear the worst when we can confirm it?")  
situated outside the Horklump Harmonious Tearooms and Mobile Library.  
Which just happens to be next door. Sometimes."

"Wha' the?"

Kneasy scratched his dandruff and cast an uneasy glance over his  
shoulder.

"Is somebody playin' silly buggers?"

He lurched across to the adjacent shop-front, taking the opportunity  
to shake his foot as he went. Snape!Son had discovered that having a  
nasal discharge was just as much fun as dribbling.

"Ease off, son. Else I'll get the rheumatiz.
"Now. What we got 'ere?"

"Ooh! A customer! Just a minute while I pop round the back for some  
tea-leaves."

The voice emanated from a table covered in a swirling mist. There was  
a pause before a chipped mug of anaemic tea appeared.

"Drink up, swirl the dregs and turn the cup upside down, place it on  
the table and we'll see what we shall see.  Mmm. Ah. Yes.  Well.  
You're going to die. Um. And travel. In that order. Not surprising  
really. Considering. That'll be one Galleon."

"Eh? That's daft. Unless somebody stuffs me and puts me in  a circus  
sideshow. Can't see why they' want to. And what do you mean -  
'considerin'?"

"Oh. You must be a stranger. Well, round here a lot of the dead, the  
ones that got in the way of a nasty spell, don't lie down - not for  
long anyway. They join the one who killed them. You know who," she  
whispered, " and they're always looking for new playmates. Why,  
there's this perfectly charming couple who wander around searching  
for their son. Or they would be charming if they spruced themselves  
up a bit. And washed the dirt off. And said hello. They're convinced  
that one day he'll come to visit, his mother especially. And they'll  
welcome him with open arms, I'm sure. They've certainly welcomed  
everybody else from around here over the past few months."

"Urk!" gasped Kneasy. "What is this place?"

"Godric's Hollow. Didn't you know? And I don't want to blow my own  
trumpet or anything like that, but I've foreseen it all." Here her  
voice took on a harsh, croaking quality - "S.L.I.G.H.T. R.A.S.H"

Slaughtered Lily Inferiated; Godric's Hollow's Terrifying Reanimation  
Attacks Son Harry.

"Er, 'scuse me," quavered Kneasy, "which is the quickest way out of  
town?"






From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 19:37:19 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:37:19 -0000
Subject: TBAY - SLIGHT RASH (slightly spoilerish, too)
In-Reply-To: <EB9DE7A4-6891-4E30-BA69-167A18D4662B@...>
Message-ID: <dbh0df+diou@...>

spoiler space.
*
*
*
*
*
Sorry, nothing creative...
*
*
*
I'm doing good to put two sentences together.


Kneasy: 
> Loosing himself, he then struggled ashore, hampered still by the  
> handicap of Snape!Son clamped ferociously to his left leg. He looked  
> down.
> 
> "So you survived too, didya? Good boy. You'll make me famous yet."


Potioncat: (or do I go by Kathy W here?)
First all, SLIGHT RASH is disgusting! EWWWW....

Ok, Are you reading chapter 2 the same way I am?

Snape to Narcissa:
"You know as well as I do that he does not forgive easily." followed by 
a little more talk of giving up sons for the Dark Lord.

It was here that I thought Florence and Son might still be a working 
theory. In fact, the more we know about HBP (the character) the more 
likely it was Snape kissing Florence. Of course, Snape!Son's mother 
doesn't have to be Florence. But how many girls could Sevvie have 
kissed? (fans not included)

Add that to JKR's quote about Snape not having a daughter...

And I just don't buy DD's explanation that Snape was shocked, shocked 
to that someone he knew might get hurt.
Kathy W.






From dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 19:37:53 2005
From: dorband at dorbandb.yahoo.invalid (dorbandb)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:37:53 -0000
Subject: HBP: a number of wrong numbers
Message-ID: <dbh0eh+gcuh@...>

>From the beginning there have been questions about JKR's ability with
numbers - most notably the number of students at Hogwarts, but there
have been other instances as well, IIR (no, I'm not going to look them
up - it's not really that important to this post...).  Now we've got
the issue of Hermione's O.W.L.s and how many she should have.  This
isn't something that stood out for me while I read, but obviously a
few others made note of it.  What did jump out at me during the first
read was the passage in the hospital wing, just after Ron drank the
poison mead:


"No more than six visitors at a time!" said Madam Pomfrey, hurrying
out of her office.
"Hagrid makes six," George pointed out.
"Oh...yes..." said Madam Pomfrey, who seemed to have been counting
Hagrid as several people due to his vastness.  To cover her confusion,
she hurried off to clear up his muddy footprints with her wand.


Is there something like a "mea culpa" from Herself in that passage -
acknowledging her occassional mishandling of numbers, hmmm?  That's
how I read it.  It made me smile.





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 19:48:04 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:48:04 -0000
Subject: FF:HPB: Arithmancy
Message-ID: <dbh11k+h9eg@...>

Hormones
Gore-Tex
ForEx
Whore-Pox
Tippex
Warlocks
Snape Rox
Dora's Box
Horrocks
Rowlocks
Better stop there...

"Harry, I think I've found a reference to RAB!" Hermione rushed up, 
breathless, and shoived a yellowing copy of the Daily Prophet into 
HArry's hand.  He saw the date: April 24, 1946.

He began to read:

"Amazing Discovery at Department of Arithmantical Research!

Top Ministry Arithmancers yesterday announced that 7 is not, as has 
long been believed, the most magical number.  In fact 259 is 
slightly more magical-"

"No, Harry, not that, on the other page, here."

But Harry was no longer listening...

David,  messing around





From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 20:11:15 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:11:15 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Amanda's 10-step; Drinking Games
In-Reply-To: <dbgunt+sfe0@...>
Message-ID: <001601c58bd4$da267c10$0200a8c0@hwin>

TO THE READER BELONG THE SPOILS! - Andrew Jackson after beating the rest
of his Yahoo group to the d?nouement

SHUFFLE OFF THIS MORTAL SPOIL. - Shakespeare, in a fit of histrionics -
a fine writer but a depressingly slow reader and under-average poster

CURSES, SPOILED AGAIN. - Western Villain, semi-literate, foul-mouthed,
God-awful loser - but good for some action on the list

DOUBLE, DOUBLE, SPOIL AND TROUBLE. - Obviously, a cheat with illicit
file-sharing software, an uncannily fast connection and some inside
information; quickly banned by Heidi.

(From Spoilsports: A History)





* * * * * 

> ARGH. See? See? That was my whole timeline problem. Dumbledore told 
> the Wizengamot (or whoever was assembled) in GoF, that Snape 
> rejoined "our" side before LV's downfall. Your sequence above has 
> Snape rejoining our side *after.* It won't work.

Dad blast it!

That's what I get for ignoring all theory-ish posts for the last couple
years. Have to say I like my theory better. I think I'll just spend the
next couple years assuming that Jo got her wires crossed.

* * * * *

By the way, my neighbor just came up with a new theory. Thing is, she
couldn't believe that Dumbledore would really be dumb enough to chug
such a massive amount of poison. I mean, if the guy's really the bee's
knees of wizardry, can't he figure out a better way to mop up? 

Moreover, she thinks the whole Regulus thing is a red harring - far too
easy for us to figure out. Thing is, she say, if the silver locket at
Sirius' place was really Slytherin's, how could Harry (who must have
spent some time trying to open it) not have recognized it?

So her theory: the liquid itself was the horcrux. By drinking it,
Dumbledore destroyed the horcrux but also let some experience of the
Dark Lord's personality enter his own nature. In fact, the reason seeing
the dark mark over Hogwarts gave him new strength was *not* his fear for
students but a trace of Voldie's maniacal elation.

Snape had to kill him to keep Voldie from taking over.

I'm not taking sides, but it's a cool idea.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 

Anyway, that's her take.




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 20:57:53 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:57:53 -0000
Subject: TBAY - SLIGHT RASH (slightly spoilerish, too)
In-Reply-To: <dbh0df+diou@...>
Message-ID: <dbh54h+cvai@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> wrote:
> spoiler space.
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> Sorry, nothing creative...
> *
> *
> *
> I'm doing good to put two sentences together.
> 
> 
> 
> Potioncat: (or do I go by Kathy W here?)
> First all, SLIGHT RASH is disgusting! EWWWW....
> 

You say the nicest things. 
It'd look good on film, though. Zombies are always popular with the
younger set. Not that I'd actually turn up to watch another of those 
so-called HP cinematic interpretations anytime before the next millennium.

> Ok, Are you reading chapter 2 the same way I am?
> 
> Snape to Narcissa:
> "You know as well as I do that he does not forgive easily." followed by 
> a little more talk of giving up sons for the Dark Lord.
> 
> It was here that I thought Florence and Son might still be a working 
> theory. In fact, the more we know about HBP (the character) the more 
> likely it was Snape kissing Florence. Of course, Snape!Son's mother 
> doesn't have to be Florence. But how many girls could Sevvie have 
> kissed? (fans not included)
> 
> Add that to JKR's quote about Snape not having a daughter...
> 
> And I just don't buy DD's explanation that Snape was shocked, shocked 
> to that someone he knew might get hurt.


Yes, it was a little more grist to the mill. There's nothing in HBP to counter
Blackwidower or Snape!Son so  far as I can see. Mind you, there's not much
offering support either, unless you're willing to read between lines such as
those you've quoted above. So it'll probably be tucked into the back files until 
something more concrete, for or against, turns up. Unless discussions turn
to consideration of Sevvy's matrimonial status. Then I shall feel obliged to
release the theories on an innocent and unsuspecting membership.

But the TBAY Kneasy had Snape!Son planted on him as a sort of trademark 
by Kirstini a couple of years back. Wouldn't do for the poor mite to be
exposed to the shennanigins of Madam Whiplash of course, but in any TBAYs
located elsewhere Snape!Son will drool for England. Besides, it gives the old 
fool someone to talk to.

In a few weeks time when everything has settled down a bit, it might be 
worthwhile doing a quick sort to see just which theories look like they'll
survive until the book 7 publication date. There's bound to be a few early 
ones gathering dust in some forgotten cubbyhole that deserve revisiting. 







From melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 22:26:37 2005
From: melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid (melclaros)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:26:37 -0000
Subject: TBAY - SLIGHT RASH (slightly spoilerish, too)
In-Reply-To: <dbh54h+cvai@...>
Message-ID: <dbhaat+ikli@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
> > spoiler space.
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > Sorry, nothing creative...
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > I'm doing good to put two sentences together.
> > 
> > 
> > 

 
> But the TBAY Kneasy had Snape!Son planted on him as a sort of
>trademark  by Kirstini a couple of years back. Wouldn't do for the
>poor mite to be exposed to the shennanigins of Madam Whiplash of
>course, but in any TBAYs located elsewhere Snape!Son will drool for
>England. Besides, it gives the old  fool someone to talk to.



Mel offers Acid Pop and tickles Snape!son--recoils to treat bloody finger.


Tells Snape!son no more playing with Peter's Habitrail at Spinner's
End until attitude improves!













From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 22:30:14 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:30:14 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
In-Reply-To: <dbgoh5+1je9@...>
Message-ID: <dbhahm+o300@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!
> SPOILERS BELOW!  
> 

> 
> No, the reason I'm disappointed with HBP is simply because most of 
> it, IMHO, is sub-par. It's poorly written, relative to JKR's 
> standards. Am I the only one who feels that way? I frequently had 
the 
> feeling like I was reading FF and not the real thing. To say that 
> this book was under-edited would be a big compliment. I think the 
> editors should have told JKR to take her time, do an extensive 
> rewrite and get back to them in another 6 months, or maybe a year. 
> Well, I guess publicity finally went to JKR's head, or the editors 
> didn't dare criticize her, or they were under pressure to finish 
> quickly.

Carolyn:
According to the Time interview, JKR really took a lot of care over 
this one:

'...she still constantly questions her writing, reviewing it like a 
boxer watching tapes of his fights. "I think Phoenix could have been 
shorter. I knew that, and I ran out of time and energy toward the 
end," she says. She is worried that Goblet was overpraised. "In every 
single book, there's stuff I would go back and rewrite," she 
says. "But I think I really planned the hell out of this one. I took 
three months and just sat there and went over and over and over the 
plan, really fine-tuned it, looked at it from every angle. I had 
learnt, maybe, from past mistakes."'


> 
> The plot was simply all over the place. No proper buildup of 
> suspence, no dramatic flow and rhythm, plot devices felt 
artificial. Many important things were spelled out instead of implied 
by dialogue and description. Most of the book was emotionally flat. 

<snip>
 For example, why didn't Harry suspect even once during the 
> whole year that the Half-Blood Prince is Snape? I mean, who do we 
> know that is good at Potions and has a small cramped handwriting? 
> Cm'on! I suspected Snape from the first second and hoped for a long 
> time that in the end it would turn out to be someone unexpected. No 
> such luck. 

Carolyn:
I think the pace was fast and furious, certainly no bad thing after 
OOP, which drags horribly in the first half. I enjoyed the book far 
more than I thought I was going to as a result.

But I have to agree that the Potions textbook creaked very badly as a 
plot device - as I've ranted elsewhere already, like Snape would have 
left his precious old textbook at the bottom of a cupboard in a 
classroom he'd been teaching in for nearly how long? 
Thirteen/fourteen years? And it just happens to get given to Harry? 
Yeah.

Only spin I can put on the whole thing is that Sluggy knew perfectly 
well whose textbook it was, and made sure Harry got it..


> 
> Shipping: Like I wrote above, I'm not averted to shipping, and I've 
> predicted all three ships in HBP a long time ago, so I should be 
> content, right? Wrong. It is possible to write good shipping and 
bad shipping, and most of the HBP shipping was very poor. 

::closes eyes and shudders::
Please, please don't talk about the shipping. It was too ghastly...

The only possible amusement that can be derived from it is the rows 
that will now break out as to the moral turpitude of a school that 
allows 6th years to slobber all over each other in front of 
impressionable younger kids. Do we assume that HRH et al have been 
witnessing such scenes in the Gryffindor common room since they 
joined....just what kind of school is DD running, discuss etc etc.


> 
> The horcuxes: it's a nice plot device, similar to several ideas 
that came up here. The problem is: 95% of it is based on completely 
new information. It couldn't have been deduced in any way from what 
we knew before. So what's the point in having any theories at all? 
And the secrets of the remaining horcruxes' identities and places? 
Can it be deuced from what we know now? I wouldn't bet money on it. 

<snip>
> Characters: JKR invents a whole horde of new characters, which 
> necessarily come on the expense of continuing the development of 
old ones. Why was there any need to replace Fudge with Scrimgeur just 
to fill approximately the same function? 


Poor Neri. And it's going to get worse. I just saw this on Leaky:

'JK Rowling: I keep killing all my favourite members of the Order of 
the Phoenix, but there is one member of the Order of the Phoenix that 
you have not yet met properly and you will?, well, you know that they 
are a member, but you haven't really met them properly yet and you 
will meet them in seven, so I am looking forward to that.'

What are theorists to do, but stamp their feet and rage? The good 
news is that we have all shown ourselves capable of not only joining 
up the dots for her, but actually inventing better plots, IMO.

Maybe it's better in the long run that we don't get all the ends tied 
up, so we can continue to believe in our own version of events? 


>But if JKR thinks it's enough to invent a few cool names and anybody 
would worship her again, well she's wrong about me, at least. She 
forgot the hard work  part.  
> 
> Well, I hope this impression will improve in a second read. It did 
> with OotP.
> 
> Neri

I got the impression from the weekend interviews that she's very keen 
to get the whole thing over with, and really anxious to get away from 
the genre into adult fiction. 

Carolyn







From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 22:49:06 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:49:06 -0000
Subject: Innocent question
In-Reply-To: <dbghhr+102hb@...>
Message-ID: <dbhbl2+bubf@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> 
wrote:
> No spoilers here, though replies necessarily involve them.
> 
> I was looking again at GOF, and noticed that as Harry relates the 
> adventure in the graveyard to Dumbledore, and mentions that a sample 
> of his blood was required for the rebirthing potion, there is a 
> momentary gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye.
> 
> Is there anything in HBP that casts light on what that is about?
> 
> David

NOT SPOILERISH THIS WAY /\
SPOILERISH THIS WAY \/  

LOL

You beat me to it, David, as usual.  The discussion of horserugs made 
me think of the gleam, too.  I had always been of the opinion that the 
gleam indicated Dumbledore's belief that Voldy's rebirth had made him 
mortal once again, hence able to be killed, but the existence of 
horkplugs would indicate that that's not true, or not precisely true, 
anyway.

Dumbledore says in HBP that all the little horcruxettes have to be 
destroyed, and only then can Voldy's body, with its remaining piece of 
Voldysoul, be destroyed.  That seems to destroy my theory, since it 
means that the GOF rebirth didn't make Voldy mortal, it simply gave 
him a coherent body.  Hmmmm.  Maybe only a coherent body, and not a 
little piece of soul, can be killed?  IOW, maybe old Voldy couldn't 
have been killed, even if all the little horklings were destroyed, 
because the remaining piece was a containerless soul, but now that the 
7th piece is back in a container, they can all be destroyed.

I hate the idea that Harry is one of the horclumps, since that seems 
to indicate that Harry will have to be destroyed.  (As someone once 
said, "She wouldn't, would she?)  But maybe the GOF graveyard scene  
indicates that Harry was indeed, Voldy's soul brother, and the use of 
Harry's blood in the rebirth means that the little piece of soul 
contained inside Harry has now been returned to its rightful owner, 
IOW, there's one less horkle than there used to be, and as a result 
Dumbledore is happy and so he gleams.  But why wouldn't he tell that 
to Harry, instead of pointing him towards a wild goose chase for 
Rowena Ravenclaw's relics or Godric Gryffindor's gloves?

--JZC





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 23:30:23 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:30:23 -0000
Subject: Innocent question
In-Reply-To: <dbhbl2+bubf@...>
Message-ID: <dbhe2f+7o6n@...>

Spoilers here
Spoilers there
Spoilers, spoilers, everywhere

If you don't want your fun to spoil
Go hang out with Crabbe and Goyle

Or just finish HBP
And then this post is spoiler-free

But if you haven't finished yet
It's spoilerish as it can get

So hurry:  the post count's mounting quickly
To almost twenty-two hundred and sixty.

(OK, so quickly and sixty don't rhyme.  You think it's easy to make 
this stuff up?)

Joywitch wrote:

> Dumbledore says in HBP that all the little horcruxettes have to be 
> destroyed, and only then can Voldy's body, with its remaining piece 
of 
> Voldysoul, be destroyed.  That seems to destroy my theory, since it 
> means that the GOF rebirth didn't make Voldy mortal, it simply gave 
> him a coherent body.  Hmmmm.  Maybe only a coherent body, and not a 
> little piece of soul, can be killed?  IOW, maybe old Voldy couldn't 
> have been killed, even if all the little horklings were destroyed, 
> because the remaining piece was a containerless soul, but now that 
the 
> 7th piece is back in a container, they can all be destroyed.

I think that's true, and although it might be possible to destroy a 
quasi-spirit wandering the wilds of Albania, it's a lot easier to 
find it once it's embodied.  But that can't be why Dumbledore gleams, 
because then he'd gleam at the news that Voldemort got a body--and 
that isn't what does it.  It's something about Harry, or blood, or 
Harry's blood.

Having poked a hole in that, I should offer something constructive, 
but I can't think of a better way to connect horehounds with the 
graveyard scene than you've suggested.

Amy Z C
who likes the term "soul brother."  Very funky!  Get down, Voldy!





From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 18 23:45:53 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:45:53 -0000
Subject: Wait!  I've got it
Message-ID: <dbhevh+93bu@...>

Once upon a time there was a spoiler.
A spoiler once upon a time there was.
It spoiled here, it spoiled there.
And a spoiled spoiler it was.

So, here's my theory of what really happened at the end of HBP.  
Dumbledore is not really dead.  For the purpose of defeating 
Voldemort, it is necessary that everyone think that he's dead, even 
poor Harry.  The person who died that night was really his twin 
brother, Aberforth.  Albus is now busily tending bar (and goats) at 
the Hogshead.  Somewhere during the brief time Harry and Albus were 
in Hogsmead, Albus used the Old Switcheroo Spell so that dumb old 
Aber would have his twin's smarts and exact looks (but not his 
magical abilities) for a little while.  Of course it's pretty nasty 
to sacrifice your own brother, but by all accounts Aberforth was 
pretty worthless, and all's fair in love and war, right?

A little cliche, maybe, the old twin switcheroo AND the old phony 
death, but how much time do you have to think up new plotlines when 
you've got 3 kids?

Just a thought.

--JZC






From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 00:00:27 2005
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:00:27 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Innocent question
References: <dbhe2f+7o6n@...>
Message-ID: <03e101c58bf4$e305b3d0$210110ac@MainDesktop>

Hi --

Just noting quickly, in response to the "Gleam" issue:

Amy Z C notes:

<<<<I think that's true, and although it might be possible to destroy a 
quasi-spirit wandering the wilds of Albania, it's a lot easier to 
find it once it's embodied.  But that can't be why Dumbledore gleams, 
because then he'd gleam at the news that Voldemort got a body--and 
that isn't what does it.  It's something about Harry, or blood, or 
Harry's blood.>>>>>>>>>

We know there *is* something special about Harry's blood, from Dumbledore's perspective, since he makes at least 2 references to Harry blood being "more valuable" than his own, and he doesn't allow Harry to voluntarily shed any blood.  That points up yet again that there's something going on there I think.  What it is though, I can't say.  

And, even if I did hazard a guess, I rather think the lot of you would be guffawing to yourselves, since my successful prediction rate seems to have plummeted to about zero after HBP.  I'll comment further later in a more detailed review.  

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 00:35:22 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:35:22 -0000
Subject: Various very spoilerish responses and a further question
In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0507180747293124e9@...>
Message-ID: <dbhhsa+l7rv@...>

Debbie:

> I am astonishingly uncreative.

You are not!!!!!!!!!

Debbie:

<<I thought "Spinner's End" took a lot of the surprise out of the 
death scene.  As it was, as soon as Snape showed up, I knew he would 
fulfill the vow, which somewhat deprived the scene of its emotional 
intensity.>>

Actually, that chapter had the opposite effect for me.  I have been 
loyal to the ESE!Snape theory since day one, but when Snape made that 
Vow, and when I found out that if he broke it, he would die, I 
started wondering whether all of the Snapelover theories about Snape 
sacrificing himself for Harry would actually come true.  At that 
point, I believed Draco was on a mission to kill Harry (not 
Dumbledore), so if Draco were to fail, and Snape were to save Harry 
rather than killing him for Draco (thereby breaking the Vow and dying 
in the process), such sacrifice theories would have actually come 
true.

But, sadly, no.  By hurling an AK at a defenseless and wandless 
Dumbledore, Snape is indeed every bit the coward Harry calls him.  
And, IMO, Snape didn't kill Dumbledore to thwart a Potion!Horcrux - 
Snape had no idea Dumbledore had drunk the potion (only Harry and 
Dumbledore knew that at the time).  

And, sorry - Dumbledore *is* really dead.  The only way he's coming 
back now is through his portrait.  HBP confirmed the speculation that 
JKR is following an alchemical model.  OotP was the black work 
(Sirius *Black* dies; there's lots of darkness and despair) and HBP 
is the white work (*Albus* = white; lots of redemption and rising 
from the ashes).  Which can only mean that Book 7 will be the red 
work, which carries the potential (to me, at least) for either Harry 
or Ron (or both) to die.  And maybe Hagrid, too.

And I never could figure out how Harry was going to kill Voldemort, 
when (IMO) JKR has made it clear in many ways that killing is wrong.  
This is further reinforced in HBP, when Dumbledore tells Harry that 
murder tears the soul apart.  So how can Harry become a murderer?  
Well, the horcruxes may be a way out.  If Harry destroys the rest of 
the 'cruxes and makes Voldemort mortal again, then even if he doesn't 
kill Voldemort himself, he at least has made him kill-able.

And again, I'm sorry, but I can't see any way that Harry is carrying 
a horcrux.  Voldemort hasn't been able to get anywhere close to him 
(other than in the graveyard in GoF, and we witnessed that scene, and 
there was no horcrux-planting going on).  I'm still hoping that the 
Gryffindor relic that will be discovered will reveal that Harry is 
Gryffindor's descendant.  Maybe Harry will find it when he visits 
Godrics Hollow??  I'm still clinging to that theory, even though I 
know my time is running short for it to be proven!

Debbie:

<<I've also been mulling over the question of how to destroy a 
Horcrux, since Dumbledore pointedly doesn't tell us how he destroyed 
the ring and how he was hurt in the process.>>

I wondered about that, too.  But then again, Ron and Hermione helped 
him sort out the obstacles in PS, so maybe they'll be able to help 
him with the 'cruxes.

Debbie:

<<Nah.  It's over.  As Harry said, "[i]t's been like . . . like
something out of someone else's life."  Harry isn't entitled to a
normal life -- or the accompanying earthly pleasures -- now that he's
accepted his destiny as the One.>>

That line broke my heart.  I think Debbie's right on this one.  Harry 
knows what he's facing; he knows he might not survive.  He doesn't 
want to put Ginny through that (although she'll go through it anyway, 
I think - can she really just forget him like that??).

~Phyllis





From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 00:44:49 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:44:49 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Various very spoilerish responses and a further question
References: <dbhhsa+l7rv@...>
Message-ID: <00da01c58bfb$11977d40$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

Phyllis:
But, sadly, no.  By hurling an AK at a defenseless and wandless 
Dumbledore, Snape is indeed every bit the coward Harry calls him.  
And, IMO, Snape didn't kill Dumbledore to thwart a Potion!Horcrux - 
Snape had no idea Dumbledore had drunk the potion (only Harry and 
Dumbledore knew that at the time).  


SSSusan:
I guess my take was a little different.  YES, DD was defenseless & wandless, but I took that to be DD *pleading* with Snape *TO* kill him.  He was dying anyway and he wanted to prevent Draco from committing a murder and, thus (DD hoped), keep Draco's future from being decided in that moment.  

I think DD looked at Snape, knowing that Snape could look right into his mind and understand his intentions, and that Snape would do what he'd done ever since coming back to DD:  follow DD's instructions.

The look of revulsion on Snape's face?  It came, imo, from DD's request "forcing" him to return to something he thought/hoped he'd left behind years before:  AKing someone.

Now, I loved the glimpses this book gave us of young!Snape.  Sirius was right -- he was up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts.  He was a talented, bright, creative wizard, but he WAS a nasty bastard.  Still, I do believe that end-of-HBP Snape was doing what DD *wanted* him to do.  It wasn't a cold-blooded murder designed to help Voldy, imo, but Snape complying with DD's wishes.

Siriusly Snapey Susan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at slytherinspirit.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 00:54:22 2005
From: kcawte at slytherinspirit.yahoo.invalid (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:54:22 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Various very spoilerish responses and a further
 question
In-Reply-To: <dbhhsa+l7rv@...>
References: <dbhhsa+l7rv@...>
Message-ID: <42DC4F3E.7050309@...>



Phyllis wrote:

>D
>
>But, sadly, no.  By hurling an AK at a defenseless and wandless 
>Dumbledore, Snape is indeed every bit the coward Harry calls him.  
>And, IMO, Snape didn't kill Dumbledore to thwart a Potion!Horcrux - 
>Snape had no idea Dumbledore had drunk the potion (only Harry and 
>Dumbledore knew that at the time).  
>
>  
>

*blinks* You don't think that doing what Dumbledore was telling him, and 
saving Draco in the process, sacrificing part of his soul (because 
Dumbledroe told us that killing someone fractures your soul) and quite 
probably his life since I think his odds of surviving book 7 just 
lengthened dramatically - was the single most courageous act we've seen 
in the books so far? (with the possible exception of Lily's sacrifice). 
I wanted so badly to slap Harry when he called him a coward. I've always 
thought Snape was  sexy beast but I've never much liked him before now. 
The man has my utmost admiration and respect though for doing that. 
*bows down before Snape*

And since Dumbledore's eye locked with Snape's I suspect he did know 
about the potion but regardless Dumbledore asked him to do it (you don't 
actually think he ws pleading for his life? I mean come on that was 
obvious surely). Plus we already know Albus was trying to force Snape to 
go through with something he didn't want to (thanks Hagrid for that 
titbit), I would bet good money that was what they were talking about. I 
don't know whether Dumbledore managed to communicate about the potion or 
not or if he told him something else when their eye locked, but even if 
he didn't Dumbledore and Snape knew about Draco so they had already 
talked about this particular sitiuation I would imagine. I'm sorry Harry 
didn't work it out but I guess he was too distraught at the time. Plus I 
think whoever (not even sure it was this list) suggested that the person 
who assisted RAB to steal the thingamybob (because Dumbledore pointed 
out that *he* couldn't have done it alone so I doubt RAB did) may be on 
to something - in which case he would know firsthand what the potion did.

And on a related note ... Rosmerta told Draco AD was going out for a 
drink - since he uses that as a cover she must have had a good idea that 
he wasn't coming in for a drink, he was doing as he had been all year, 
but she didn't tell Draco that. I wonder if she had thrown off the 
curse, and if so when, had she been faking it all along on AD's orders?

K



From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 01:44:56 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:44:56 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
In-Reply-To: <dbgoh5+1je9@...>
Message-ID: <dbhluo+uocc@...>

LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!
LOOK OUT BELOW!

Neri:
> The mystery plot: I'll have to re-read to make sure, but after my 
> first reading it seems to me that there are several big holes in
the  plot. For example, why didn't Harry suspect even once during the 
whole year that the Half-Blood Prince is Snape? I mean, who do we 
know that is good at Potions and has a small cramped handwriting? 

Pippin:
It's a thriller plot, not a mystery. We know more than the characters
because we're supposed to. The suspense comes from knowing that 
Harry is, as usual, headed straight towards disaster without a clue.
When has Harry ever paid attention to Snape? It's perfectly in
character that he would forget the cramped handwriting --Snape's 
handwriting on Harry's papers tends to run more to large capital T's, 
I think. I do think that Harry was steered to that book on purpose.
/Somebody/ wanted him to have it. Notice that apart from Ron,
 none of the other students in the class were unprepared. 
Surely they didn't all get Outstandings? Nope, definitely dodgy.

Neri:
> The horcuxes: it's a nice plot device, similar to several ideas
that  came up here. The problem is: 95% of it is based on completely 
new  information. It couldn't have been deduced in any way from what 
we   knew before. So what's the point in having any theories at all?
And the secrets of the remaining horcruxes' identities and places? Can
it  be deuced from what we know now? I wouldn't bet money on it. 
> 

Pippin:
Herself *said* she didn't think it was guessable. It doesn't need to 
be, it's pure  McGuffin of the first order. The mystery is the
identity of  the traitor (the real traitor), and that is eminently 
guessable. Poor Tonks!

Neri:
Why was there any need to replace Fudge with Scrimgeur just to 
 fill approximately the same function? 

Pippin:
To show that the rot in the Ministry is systemic rather than a
matter of a few bad apples in the barrel. It has to be, to set up
the stage for ESE!Lupin. Lupin the spy on the werewolves is
confirmed as predicted, and notice how he said they were his
"equals." And he's the one who tells us the mist is because
the dementors are breeding, confirming his knowledge of 
these creatures.

Pippin





From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 02:01:04 2005
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:01:04 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
References: <dbhluo+uocc@...>
Message-ID: <043801c58c05$bb559380$210110ac@MainDesktop>

Hi --

THINK I FORGOT THE SPOILER SPACE IN MY OTHER QUICK POST

SORRY ABOUT THAT

BLAME IT ON THE HOWLING 4-YR OLD IN THE BATHTUB WHILE I WAS TRYING TO TYPE

SORRY, SORRY, SORRY!

I'M VERY UNCREATIVE WITH THIS SPOILER STUFF, UNLIKE MOST OF YOU

SO, THERE BE SPOILERS AHEAD, THOUGH IT'S A SHORT COMMENT FOR SURE

BUT, DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE DAMN BOOK

THERE, IS THAT ENOUGH?  

I DUNNO.

MAYBE MORE?

OKAY, MORE

SPOILERS AHEAD
SPOILERS AHEAD
SPOILERS AHEAD

SICK OF THIS .........

***********************

Pippin said of the idea that Harry should have recognized the handwriting:

<<<<<<<<It's a thriller plot, not a mystery. We know more than the characters
because we're supposed to. The suspense comes from knowing that 
Harry is, as usual, headed straight towards disaster without a clue.
When has Harry ever paid attention to Snape? It's perfectly in
character that he would forget the cramped handwriting --Snape's 
handwriting on Harry's papers tends to run more to large capital T's, 
I think. I do think that Harry was steered to that book on purpose.
/Somebody/ wanted him to have it.>>>>>>>>>>>.

No, but *Hermione* should have recognized it!  And since Snape seems to have routinely written out potions assignments on the blackboard, I would think even Harry might think that he'd seen that writing somewhere before (even if Snape wasn't writing out DADA instructions at that time).  And, again, where was Hermione?  And why, if nothing else, was she not demanding regularly that Harry show the book to Dumbledore?  

Oh yeah.  Her character had to be completely altered beyond recognition.  More on that ........ some other time.

Penny 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 02:06:51 2005
From: hp at gulplum.yahoo.invalid (Richard)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:06:51 +0100
Subject: OT: Why I shall be silent for a while
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20050719025925.009c2310@...>

I've just had the wind completely blown out of my sails.

What are the chances? I've just discovered from browsing a couple of news 
sites that I used to know one of the confirmed victims of the London 
bombing. VERY well, over a period of about 10 years. I can't say we were 
friends (at various points, quite the opposite), but Giles Hart was a great 
bloke.

One of the ironies ("tragedies" would be a better word) is that one of the 
contexts in we knew each other was activism against the Soviet occupation 
of Afghanistan...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1530281,00.html

There's no way on earth I could possibly consider thinking about fictional 
battles between good and evil for the foreseeable future.

'nuff said (I hope).





From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 02:40:52 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:40:52 -0000
Subject: Various very spoilerish responses and a further question
In-Reply-To: <42DC4F3E.7050309@...>
Message-ID: <dbhp7k+102lv@...>

SNAPE IS ESE SNAPE IS ESE SNAPE IS ESE SNAPE IS ESE  SNAPE IS ESE 
SNAPE IS ESE SNAPE IS ESE SNAPE IS ESE SNAPE IS ESE SNAPE IS ESE  

Kathryn:

<<And since Dumbledore's eye locked with Snape's I suspect he did 
know about the potion but regardless Dumbledore asked him to do it 
(you don't actually think he ws pleading for his life? I mean come on 
that was obvious surely).>>

I think it was obvious that Dumbledore *was* pleading for his life, 
and the only way I could believe something to the contrary is if I'd 
just imbibed a large dose of Alan Rickman Befuddlement Draught.

I think Dumbledore had finally realized that Snape was double-
crossing him, and that's why Dumbledore appointed him to the DADA job 
(and I think it had something to do with their row as well).  
Dumbledore (unlike Snape) knew Voldemort had jinxed the job, so by 
granting Snape his heart's desire and appointing him to the job, he 
ensured that Snape would only be spending one more year at Hogwarts.

Dumbledore put the freezing charm on Harry so Harry wouldn't enter 
the fray that Dumbledore suspected was about to ensue.  Dumbledore 
would know that if he died, the spell would be lifted.  And knowing 
Harry as he does, if Harry witnessed his death, Harry surely would go 
after Snape - thus thwarting the entire reason Dumbledore put the 
charm on him in the first place (to protect Harry).

Dumbledore tells Harry in OotP that everyone else's life comes second 
to Harry's.  In HBP, Dumbledore shows Harry that his (Dumbledore's) 
life is included in that - by saying that Harry's blood is more 
important in the cave, and by freezing Harry rather than defending 
himself at the top of the Astronomy Tower.  Why would Dumbledore put 
Draco's life over Harry's, then?

Why would Dumbledore want to die when he knew the magnitude of the 
task ahead: the number of horcruxes left to be found and destroyed?

And I don't believe that Dumbledore was on death's door, either.  He 
knew he needed help to fight the effects of the potion, but he wasn't 
done fighting yet.

~Phyllis 





From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 02:48:03 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:48:03 -0000
Subject: Innocent question (spoiler alert!)
In-Reply-To: <dbghhr+102hb@...>
Message-ID: <dbhpl3+or34@...>

There was a gleam? There was a gleam? There was a gleam? There was a 
gleam? There was a gleam? There was a gleam? There was a gleam?

David:
 
<<I was looking again at GOF, and noticed that as Harry relates the 
adventure in the graveyard to Dumbledore, and mentions that a sample 
of his blood was required for the rebirthing potion, there is a 
momentary gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye.

Is there anything in HBP that casts light on what that is about?>>


Perhaps the gleam of triumph had to do with Dumbledore realizing that 
Voldemort had not yet worked out that Dumbledore had figured out the 
existence of the horcruxes.  Voldemort seems to think that using 
Harry's blood has made him immune to attack.  Dumbledore knows this 
isn't true - he knows that if the horcruxes can all be destroyed, 
Voldemort will be mortal again, regardless of whether Lily's blood 
resides in his veins.

~Phyllis
Who needs to give the credit for the "There was a gleam?" spoiler space 
message to Lexicon Steve






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 03:51:45 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:51:45 -0000
Subject: spoiler replies and one original thought (btw Locomotor trunkis)
Message-ID: <dbhtch+t30b@...>

Amy Z wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_o
ld_crowd/message/2219 :

<< <spoiler space>
Upon a time a Surrey lad
Learned he was a wizard, like his dad.
He went to school and learned to spell
And fight the bad guy very well.
At age sixteen he headed back
And so we now know myth from fact:
His DADA teacher was (excised)
His team in Quidditch (blank) the prize.
He got (some number of) OWLs
And learned a lot of (something) spells.
The Half-Blood Prince, that man of mystery,
Was (whatsisface); that much is history.
Harry traveled with (Professor X)
And put on (whosit) a risky hex.
Did someone die? Did someone sicken?
Stop this crazy game of chicken.
Who kissed whom, or were they celibate?
Are you still here just for the hell of it?
Do not risk another look,
Turn this off and read your book!
</spoiler space> >>

Fabulous!

Who thinks Lavender gave Ron a Love Potion? It seemed to me that his
desire to stop snogging her came on very suddenly after Slughorn gave
him the antidote to Romilda's more powerful Love Potion. Maybe
Lavender's was less overwhelming because she made it herself instead
of buying it from Fred and George?

Ewe2 Penguin eeked in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2182 :

<< I just read the Time interview (snip)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1083935-1,00.html >>

Hey, thanks for the link. In the third page (of four), it says
"Voldemort (whose name Rowling pronounces with a silent t)".

mooseming wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2184 :

<< Does anyone else think that Ron's birthday present from his parents
was actually *DD's* watch? >>

The watches are described differently. DD's in PS/SS "it. It was a
very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little
planets were moving around the edge." Ron's watch in HBP: "a heavy
gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars
instead of hands."

Ron's watch - no hands. DD's watch - 12 hands. 
Ron's watch - odd symbols. DD's watch - no mention of odd symbols.
Ron's watch - moving stars. DD's watch - moving planets.
I also think that 'instead of hands' is a bit closer to the center
than 'around the edge'.

Fran wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_ol
d_crowd/message/2187 :

<< RAB as one person's initials could be too obvious...could it be R
and B. The R and B are linked together like partners >>

But the note says "I", not ever "we": "I know I will be dead long
before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who
discovered your secret. I have stolen the real horcrux and intend to
destroy it as soon as I can. I face death (etc)".

I can fantasize a Ronald Arthur Bilius Weasley who called himself
R.A.B. (pronounced 'Rab') like American Civil War general J.E.B.
Stuart. And who named his three sons Ronald, Arthur, and Bilius.
Arthur we've met
(http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=7 says
"Arthur Weasley was one of three brothers"). Uncle Bilius saw a Grim
and died. Uncle Ronald is a figment of my imagination. 

If Draco could say (doubtlessly quoting Lucius) that "All the Weasleys
have red hair, freckles, and more children than they can afford"*,
Arthur's children should have some first cousins with them at
Hogwarts! Altho' if Harry and Ron could have studied in the Gryffindor
common room and eaten at the Gryffindor table for five years without
ever noticing that McLaggen, maybe they also managed to overlook
another half-dozen red-headed Weasleys.

*Why does my memory make that quote 'red hair, no money, and more
children than they can afford'? Is it movie contamination?





From psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 04:05:28 2005
From: psychic_serpent at psychic_serpent.yahoo.invalid (psychic_serpent)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:05:28 -0000
Subject: Various very spoilerish responses and a further question
In-Reply-To: <dbhhsa+l7rv@...>
Message-ID: <dbhu68+ap2l@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" 
<erisedstraeh2002 at y...> wrote:
> And again, I'm sorry, but I can't see any way that Harry is 
> carrying a horcrux.  Voldemort hasn't been able to get anywhere 
> close to him (other than in the graveyard in GoF, and we witnessed 
> that scene, and there was no horcrux-planting going on).  

It's the scar.

Voldemort inadvertantly creates the horcrux when he tries and fails 
to kill Harry when he's a baby.  He was probably going to Godric's 
Hollow to get an artifact from Gryffindor to use for the last 
horcrux, so he only had two out of the seven portions of his soul 
left.  (Thrice refusing to give up the artifact may be how James and 
Lily defied him.)  James's death served the purpose of providing the 
death that would allow Voldemort to create the horcrux, while 
Harry's death was meant to get Prophecy Boy out of his way; Lily 
wasn't meant to die because Snape asked her to be spared, in all 
likelihood.  But since she made trouble Voldemort had no 
compunctions about killing her, even though Snape gave him the 
prophecy.  Her sacrifice changed everything, creating the blood 
protection that caused the AK curse to backfire on Voldemort, 
dividing what was left of his soul into two parts, one of which went 
into Harry's scar (imbuing him with some of Voldemort's powers, such 
as Parseltongue) and the other part becoming a bodiless spirit.

Jo said that the question we should really be asking is WHY DIDN'T 
VOLDEMORT DIE?  The clue is in the very first chapter.  Fudge says 
this:

"That is--I don't know--is a man alive if he can't be killed?" [page 
11, US edition] 

It is possibly the most important thing that he says.  IS Voldemort 
alive if he can't be killed?  "Neither can live while the other 
survives," is what the prophecy says.  Perhaps Voldemort cannot be 
said to be living, technically, while Harry survives, because Harry 
has part of his soul inside him (the scar), so while Harry-the-
Horcrux lives Voldemort cannot be killed, ergo, he is not 
technically alive.  Harry also cannot be killed because his mother's 
love is protecting him, so since it was not possible for Voldemort 
to kill Harry, technically HE is not alive either (by the same 
definition, that to live is to be someone who can be killed).  But 
it is, according to the prophecy, only while Voldemort survives in 
some form that Harry is not able to be killed, so it would seem that 
Harry CAN be killed once Voldemort--and all of his soul--is truly 
gone.  So Harry himself does not need to be "destroyed"--only his 
scar.  I believe that this will be the last word of the last book 
because he will no longer have it but he WILL survive.

I also have some detailed notes on Chapters 1 and 2 on my LJ:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/psychic_serpent/

(The part about Fudge's quote is in the notes on Chapter 1 but I 
didn't mention the scar being the horcrux yet.)

--Barb







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 04:27:44 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:27:44 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
In-Reply-To: <043801c58c05$bb559380$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <dbhvg0+p7tm@...>

Somehow
I didn't
Think
Penny
Would
Be
Happy
With
This
Book
<g>
> 
Penny:
> No, but *Hermione* should have recognized it!

Pippin:
Snape's handwriting could change enough in twenty years 
that she wouldn't. *She* never saw Snape's juvenile
hand in the pensieve, and Harry never talked about it.

No one's ever said Snape's  chalkboard writing is too small 
and cramped to read. An expert might realize a similarity, 
I suppose, but Hermione isn't one.

Penny:
 And why, if nothing else, was she not demanding regularly 
that Harry show the book to Dumbledore?  

Pippin:
Because she knew it wouldn't do any good. He wasn't
about to give it up, no matter what she said, and if
she squealed on him it would be the Firebolt all
over again. Besides, she got hung up on the idea
that the Prince was a girl. Once Hermione latches
onto an idea, it takes her a long time to let go of it.

Pippin





From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 05:48:47 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:48:47 -0000
Subject: Amanda's 10-step DE-reformation program, was Re: How does he know?
In-Reply-To: <dbgunt+sfe0@...>
Message-ID: <dbi47v+ob8c@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> wrote:
 I cannot write in Potterverse
 I shouldn't even try
 For it will go from Snape to worse
 And make poor readers cry
 
 And hypocritical, it is
 To write it anyway
 For surely it is fanfic too
 Which I shove fast away.
 
> Okay, that should be enough.

*laughs out loud*
*recycles it rather than thinking up a new one*

Aberforth's theory, Amanda's variant, Point 8:
> 8. LV fails to find the Potters for rather a long time. At least 15 
> months + however many months the prophecy preceded Harry's birth.

Annemehr:
How about...
8. LV finishes up creating and suitably protecting Horcruxes until
five of them are done*, which takes him until said One is fifteen
months old, because he's saving the murder of The One(TM) for the
sixth and final vessel.  After all, what's Harry going to do to him in
the meantime, crawl up to him and bite his ankle?

*I only advance this theory because DD reckoned Harry's murder was to
supply the bit of soul for #6.  But personally I have no idea why
Moldyshorts wouldn't have lined up all six horcruxes decades before
then, if he'd done his first one circa 1952.  It can't take that long
to actually make one, if as DD suggests, LV could have whipped one up
from Frank Bryce's murder and Nagini as an afterthought.  Maybe he
likes to make *really* elaborate hiding places that take years and
years to construct...

~Anne,
finally caught up to you all...






From olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 06:00:20 2005
From: olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid (olivierfouquet2000)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:00:20 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant and ESE!Lupin
In-Reply-To: <dbhluo+uocc@...>
Message-ID: <dbi4tk+899q@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!
> LOOK OUT BELOW!

> Pippin:
> To show that the rot in the Ministry is systemic rather than a
> matter of a few bad apples in the barrel. It has to be, to set up
> the stage for ESE!Lupin. Lupin the spy on the werewolves is
> confirmed as predicted, and notice how he said they were his
> "equals." And he's the one who tells us the mist is because
> the dementors are breeding, confirming his knowledge of 
> these creatures.
> 
> Pippin

Living ESE!Lupin larger accusations aside for now, I would remark that it is Fudge who tells 
us and most notably the Muggle Prime Minister that the mist is from Dementors breeding.

Olivier





From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 07:02:10 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:02:10 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
In-Reply-To: <dbhluo+uocc@...>
Message-ID: <dbi8hi+hdnu@...>

(To the tune of the original Doctor Who theme music)
Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space
[pause]
Wah Wah aaaaaaaahhh!

M
O
R
E

S
P
A
C
E

Pippin wrote:
> When has Harry ever paid attention to Snape? It's perfectly in
> character that he would forget the cramped handwriting --Snape's 
> handwriting on Harry's papers tends to run more to large capital 
> T's, I think. I do think that Harry was steered to that book on 
> purpose./Somebody/ wanted him to have it. Notice that apart from 
>  Ron, none of the other students in the class were unprepared. 
> Surely they didn't all get Outstandings? Nope, definitely dodgy.
> 

Pip:
I presume DD must have known which OWL grades Harry got, and then 
promptly made sure that the *Potions* master was replaced - with one 
who accepted 'Exceeds Expectations' students.

And he didn't tell Harry what Slughorn taught, so Harry didn't know 
to get the textbook and supplies. Again, presumably he must know 
that Harry expressed the ambition to be an auror to McGonagall. But 
why is it so important that Harry know potions?

As to the book - do you think there are charms that can be set on 
something, so that it's given to a particular person?


 
> Pippin:
> To show that the rot in the Ministry is systemic rather than a
> matter of a few bad apples in the barrel. It has to be, to set up
> the stage for ESE!Lupin. Lupin the spy on the werewolves is
> confirmed as predicted, and notice how he said they were his
> "equals." And he's the one who tells us the mist is because
> the dementors are breeding, confirming his knowledge of 
> these creatures.

Pip:
Snape didn't like Tonk's patronus - which we now know is a werewolf. 
He says it 'looks weak'. Now this could refer to how ill Lupin is - 
but it could also signal an ESE Lupin who turns to the DE's out of 
weakness - despair at the corruption of the WW, despair at the way 
werewolves are treated.

Pip!Squeak

"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 07:52:40 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:52:40 -0000
Subject: Various very spoilerish responses and a further question
In-Reply-To: <dbhp7k+102lv@...>
Message-ID: <dbibg8+n1ii@...>

There was an old man with a beard
Who said "It is just as I feared
I drank lots of potion 
Then swam in the ocean
And now I confess I feel weird."


> Kathryn:
> 
> <<And since Dumbledore's eye locked with Snape's I suspect he did 
> know about the potion but regardless Dumbledore asked him to do it 
> (you don't actually think he ws pleading for his life? I mean come 
on 
> that was obvious surely).>>

Phyllis:
> I think it was obvious that Dumbledore *was* pleading for his life, 
> and the only way I could believe something to the contrary is if 
I'd 
> just imbibed a large dose of Alan Rickman Befuddlement Draught.

Eloise: 
I'd humbly suggest that at this stage nothing is *obvious*, although 
I agree with Kathryn's interpretation.


Phyllis:
> I think Dumbledore had finally realized that Snape was double-
> crossing him, and that's why Dumbledore appointed him to the DADA 
job 
> (and I think it had something to do with their row as well).  
> Dumbledore (unlike Snape) knew Voldemort had jinxed the job, so by 
> granting Snape his heart's desire and appointing him to the job, he 
> ensured that Snape would only be spending one more year at Hogwarts.

Eloise:

Whereas, as I wrote earlier, I believe that Dumbledore had been 
protecting Snape from the cursed job until now because he needed him. 
He was planning his own death and so at last, Snape could have the 
job which meant he would have to leave Hogwarts. Snape is an expert 
in the Dark Arts. Can he really not recognise a cursed job when he 
sees one? I think he went in with his eyes wide open.

If Dumbledore knew that Snape was double-crossing him, then why 
didn't he get rid of him by some more effecient means than waiting 
for the curse to kick in? It's not like he would have been able to 
rely on him for inside information form LV's camp, so he didn't need 
him. Why, when he was weakened by *poison* did he repeatedly say that 
the person he needed was *Snape*? Why not demand Slughorn, Pomphrey?


Phyllis:
> Dumbledore put the freezing charm on Harry so Harry wouldn't enter 
> the fray that Dumbledore suspected was about to ensue.  Dumbledore 
> would know that if he died, the spell would be lifted.  And knowing 
> Harry as he does, if Harry witnessed his death, Harry surely would 
go 
> after Snape - thus thwarting the entire reason Dumbledore put the 
> charm on him in the first place (to protect Harry).

Eloise:

He put the freezing charm on Harry because he was the one person 
present who could muck up the plan. He felt safe with Harry. He had 
allowed Harry to come with him, protect him, he knows what Harry is 
capable of. I am sure that he did not want Harry to kill 
unnecessarily, yes. But he didn't prevent him from entering the fray 
at the MOM.

Phyllis:
> Dumbledore tells Harry in OotP that everyone else's life comes 
second 
> to Harry's.  In HBP, Dumbledore shows Harry that his (Dumbledore's) 
> life is included in that - by saying that Harry's blood is more 
> important in the cave, and by freezing Harry rather than defending 
> himself at the top of the Astronomy Tower.  Why would Dumbledore 
put 
> Draco's life over Harry's, then?

Eloise:

He didn't. He knew Harry was in no real danger from Snape, as we saw, 
yet again, that he wasn't. Dumbledore didn't want Draco to be a 
killer. He needed Severus to act the part of loyal DE. He needed his 
death *not* to look planned.

Phyllis:
> 
> Why would Dumbledore want to die when he knew the magnitude of the 
> task ahead: the number of horcruxes left to be found and destroyed?
> 
> And I don't believe that Dumbledore was on death's door, either.  
He 
> knew he needed help to fight the effects of the potion, but he 
wasn't 
> done fighting yet.

Eloise:
Because *Harry* is the one who must do it. Because there is something 
magically potent about his death that will in the end aid Harry. 
Because the Author has stated that Harry needs to do this final task 
alone and Albus and Severus are but pawns in the game. Well, not 
pawns, but pieces on the board. ;-)

I think the potion is actually a bit of a red herring, put in to make 
us have exactly this kind of debate, create the ambiguity in 
the "Snape, please". She persistently creates this deliberate 
ambiguity, as in the overheard conversations with Quirrell and 
Dumbledore in the forest, as in the Spinners End chapter.

And something else. If LV was prepared to have *Draco* bump off 
Dumbledore, why the heck didn't he just order Snape, with his 
infinitely greater skill and opportunity just to do it as soon as he 
was convinced of his return? Equally, although Snape explains to 
Narcissa and Bellatrix why he couldn't murder Harry under 
Dumbledore's nose whilst he "believed" Voldemort dead (which, of 
course, we know that he didn't) this doesn't explain why he 
apparently made no attempt to harm him, or deliver him up to  
Voldemort throughout OoP. No mention of the Dark Lord wanting him for 
himself, like he shouts out at the end of HBP. 

I'm afraid the jury's very much out on this one.

~Eloise





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 08:30:03 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:30:03 -0000
Subject: HBP: Dumbledore's hand
In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0507180747293124e9@...>
Message-ID: <dbidmb+hclk@...>

I don't have my copy of HBP to verify this.

James has taken it to Devon to read on the train: his sister expressed 
surprise that he was prepared to be seen to be uncool and his response 
was that his colleague Dave always tries to be cool and 'he's really 
into it - he was discussing it with Cathy'.

You have to laugh.

Debbie:
 
> I've also been mulling over the question of how to destroy a Horcrux,
> since Dumbledore pointedly doesn't tell us how he destroyed the ring
> and how he was hurt in the process. 

My recollection is that Dumbledore turns up wearing the ring and with 
an injured hand; later, the ring is gone.

So he got the injury *getting* the ring, not destroying it.

My recollection is also that Snape implied in "Spinner's End" that 
Dumbledore was injured in a fight, rather than a magical accident.

I believe the story of how he came to be injured is a running joke.  
JKR has made Dumbledore very secretive in order to concela important 
plot points from us until she was ready to reveal them.  She is 
laughing at us, showing how she can still easily conceal things 
despite the new, confiding, Dumbledore.

David





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 08:47:14 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:47:14 -0000
Subject: HBP: First Read Rant (Neri's disappointment)
In-Reply-To: <dbhluo+uocc@...>
Message-ID: <dbiemi+ikr1@...>

Dudley
is
spoilt.
He 
must
have
been
reading
bootleg
chapters
of
HBP
on
the
internet.

> Pippin:
> It's a thriller plot, not a mystery. 

> Neri:
> > The horcuxes: it's a nice plot device, similar to several ideas
> that  came up here. The problem is: 95% of it is based on 
completely 
> new  information. It couldn't have been deduced in any way from 
what 
> we   knew before. So what's the point in having any theories at 
all?
> And the secrets of the remaining horcruxes' identities and places? 
Can
> it  be deuced from what we know now? I wouldn't bet money on it. 
> > 

> Pippin:
> Herself *said* she didn't think it was guessable. It doesn't need 
to 
> be, it's pure  McGuffin of the first order. The mystery is the
> identity of  the traitor (the real traitor), and that is eminently 
> guessable. Poor Tonks!

I must say that, emotionally I'm with Neri on this one (though I 
think I enjoyed the book more than he did), but intellectually with 
Pippin.

It is something of a disappointment to me that the things that seem 
to me to be the really important mysteries - the power that 
Voldemort knows not, why he didn't die, etc are either slipped in 
casually or, as you say, McGuffins.  (Though to be fair, the Horcrux 
idea does have some coherence - it's not just a sonic screwdriver of 
immortality.)

Whereas the identity of a traitor, while of course great fun and 
interesting and an integral part of the plot and all that, always 
seemed secondary.

I think the metaphysical mysteries are more or less solved (though I 
still wonder about the gleam), and either there is now no real 
mystery (what Nora called Fantasy Treasure Quest in HPFGU chat on 
Sunday) or there are only mundane mysteries (what is Snape up to?).

While I'm not qualified to comment on any supposed alchemical 
structure of the series, I do feel that these books are not 
fundamentally alchemical in nature - there is nothing hermetic here, 
it seems.

Non-Christians (and those Christians who don't want to be preached 
at), too, can probably breathe a sigh of relief.

David





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 09:32:08 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:32:08 -0000
Subject: HBP: First Read Rant (Neri's disappointment)
In-Reply-To: <dbiemi+ikr1@...>
Message-ID: <dbihao+in32@...>

Poor little Dudders
Spoilt by his mother's
Overindulgence
And pride

Poor little Dudders
Doesn't have his mother's
Slim physique
Or eyes!







--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Dudley
> is
> spoilt.
> He 
> must
> have
> been
> reading
> bootleg
> chapters
> of
> HBP
> on
> the
> internet.
> 
<snip>
> 
> I think the metaphysical mysteries are more or less solved (though 
I 
> still wonder about the gleam), and either there is now no real 
> mystery (what Nora called Fantasy Treasure Quest in HPFGU chat on 
> Sunday) or there are only mundane mysteries (what is Snape up to?).
> 
<snip>
> 
> David



I'm hoping that DD's identification of at least one HRX is flawed, 
with the possibility of a human HRX, maybe Harry himself or an 
innocent (Snape's son????)


Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.






From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 09:35:00 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforth's Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:35:00 -0000
Subject: OT: Why I shall be silent for a while
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050719025925.009c2310@...>
Message-ID: <dbihg4+jimv@...>

Richard wrote,

> I've just had the wind completely blown out of my sails.
> 
> What are the chances? I've just discovered from browsing a couple 
of news 
> sites that I used to know one of the confirmed victims of the 
London 
> bombing. VERY well, over a period of about 10 years. I can't say we 
were 
> friends (at various points, quite the opposite), but Giles Hart was 
a great 
> bloke.
> 
> One of the ironies ("tragedies" would be a better word) is that one 
of the 
> contexts in we knew each other was activism against the Soviet 
occupation 
> of Afghanistan...
> 
> There's no way on earth I could possibly consider thinking about 
fictional 
> battles between good and evil for the foreseeable future.

Go in peace, Richard. 

Just one thought: reading about the kind of man he was and the kind 
of things he lived for; and comparing that with the kind of death he 
died - it all reminded me of a book I just read. In fact, it makes me 
think hard about the kind of lives and deaths *it* narrates, and 
about related things like politics and war and hatred and violence 
and love and forgiveness. And, somehow, I think if there were more 
people who would read books like that thoughtfully, there might be 
more lives, and fewer deaths, like his.

The Prophet Isaiah once said something I would like to wish to that 
kind of book: "So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it 
shall not return to me empty."

Sincerely,

Mike





From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 09:41:43 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:41:43 -0000
Subject: HBP: Dumbledore's hand
In-Reply-To: <dbidmb+hclk@...>
Message-ID: <dbihsn+fptq@...>

One original spoiler and I'm done!
One original spoiler and I'm done!
One original spoiler and I'm done!
One original spoiler and I'm done!
One original spoiler and I'm done!
One original spoiler and I'm done!

David:
> I don't have my copy of HBP to verify this.

Debbie:  
> > I've also been mulling over the question of how to destroy a 
Horcrux,
> > since Dumbledore pointedly doesn't tell us how he destroyed the 
ring
> > and how he was hurt in the process. 

David: 
> My recollection is that Dumbledore turns up wearing the ring and 
with 
> an injured hand; later, the ring is gone.
> 
> So he got the injury *getting* the ring, not destroying it.

Eloise:

I looked this up this morning after we discussed it last night (and I 
inadvertently misled you).

Yes, he's wearing the ring, but it's already cracked. In its first 
Pensieve appearance, there's no mention of such a crack, but a 
mysterious allusion to the Peverell coat of arms:

"Know how much I've been offered for this, with the Peverell coat of 
arms engraved on the stone?"

I cannot find a Peverell coat of arms that looks anything like 
remotely Slytherinesque, so what that's about, I've no idea.

I think he must have made at least an abortive attempt to destroy it 
before returning, injured, to Hogwarts for Snape's attentions *which 
apparently probably saved his life* (if he were a traitor, why didn't 
he just let him die? - sorry, had to put that in).

~Eloise





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 10:19:56 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:19:56 +0100
Subject: HBP Spoilers - Tonks
Message-ID: <03EBF90B-BC1A-454E-8BD9-F411C3426960@...>

I'LL
     BE
         GLAD
                 WHEN
                             WE
                                 DON'T
                                             NEED
                                                         TO
                                                                 DO
                                                                         
  THIS
                                                                         
          ANYMORE
                                                                         
                              WON'T
                                                                         
                                          YOU?


Firstly - commiserations to Richard. One can never have so many  
friends and acquaintances that one can afford to lose any.

I'm a bit surprised at the posts members have put up regarding Tonks.
Where is the steely eyed suspicion, the rampant  paranoia normally to  
be expected from HP analysers? From what I've read on the board  
(again forgive me if I've misread or misunderstood what's been said,  
but these past few days have been a bit frantic to say the least,  
much more than HBP and The Open to contend with) fans seem to be  
pussy-footing around somewhat.

Ever the fool willing to rush in where angels fear to tread, I'll  
come out and say it; if it don't walk like a duck and don't quack  
like a duck, then it ain't a duck.

OK, let's see what we've got.

We all know the Tonks from OoP;  bubbly, clumsy, sociable Metamorphagus.

No  sign of that in HBP. Instead (and this is just after 1.5 read- 
throughs so  there may be more):
Miserable, not clumsy, never metamorphoses (yes, a few minor changes  
that  could easily be accomplished by a minor transfiguration spell  
or two - and note that SFAICR nobody sees her make these changes),  
has a different Patronus (when just a couple of days previously Jo  
stated categorically that each persons Patronus is unique) and avoids  
spending time with groups of people who presumably know Tonks well,  
e.g. a Weasley social evening).

In addition she spends time wandering  the corridors of Hogwarts near  
where the RoR or Draino is presumably up to his little tricks; has a  
fellow Auror in Hogwarts (Dawlish) who is not likely to be friendly  
towards DD, and best of all Slytherin have industrial quantities of  
Polyjuice potion stashed away in the basement. Snape's sharp  
reference to her 'weak' Patronus means something; sending the  
Patronus was breaking her cover and in his own sweet, inimitable way  
Sevvy was giving her a sharp reminder. He knows what's going on and  
therefore DD probably does too.

Other characters keep making excuses for her, too. Supposedly  
mourning for Sirius, then it turns out she hardly knew him.  
Assumptions that she's pining for Bill - but with absolutely no  
evidence offered. Typical JKR  sleight of hand IMO.

Hell's teeth. What more do you want?
T'ain't Tonks. Though the one at the funeral probably is.

The question now is "Who is she and which side is she on?"

Could she be the Order member that Jo says will appear in the last  
book and who we sort of know already? This would be my bet.

Mind you this may not be the case -- to wander off into wildest  
speculation she could even be Cissy making sure that her over- 
confidant offspring doesn't attract too much trouble too soon. Or she  
could fit somewhere in-between - someone who works in the MoM  
covering for Tonks while she's (officially) up to something else -  a  
friendly face for Harry wouldn't go amiss,  he might even confide  
things that he wouldn't tell DD, or a Ministry insider  
surreptitiously  taking advantage of Tonks's fairly innocent  
unavailability to keep a close eye on what DD and young Potter are up  
to.

I'm might be wrong, but I'm not uncertain - the 'Tonks' of HBP bears  
looking at very closely indeed.

Kneasy








From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 10:57:23 2005
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:57:23 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] OT: Why I shall be silent for a while
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050719025925.009c2310@...>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F345BD584039B2577B77DB3D0D40@...>

Richard wrote:


>I've just had the wind completely blown out of my sails.
>
>What are the chances? I've just discovered from browsing a couple of news
>sites that I used to know one of the confirmed victims of the London
>bombing. VERY well, over a period of about 10 years. I can't say we were
>friends (at various points, quite the opposite), but Giles Hart was a great
>bloke.

I am so sorry, Richard--words cannot express my feelings.  Please accept my 
sympathy.

Parker





From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 11:00:00 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:00:00 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Spoilers - Tonks
In-Reply-To: <03EBF90B-BC1A-454E-8BD9-F411C3426960@...>
References: <03EBF90B-BC1A-454E-8BD9-F411C3426960@...>
Message-ID: <20050719110000.GA19034@...>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 11:19:56AM +0100, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> I'LL
>      BE
>          GLAD
>                  WHEN
>                              WE
>                                  DON'T
>                                              NEED
>                                                          TO
>                                                                  DO
>                                                                          
>   THIS
>                                                                          
>           ANYMORE
>                                                                          
>                               WON'T
>                                                                          
>                                           YOU?
> 
> 
> Firstly - commiserations to Richard. One can never have so many  
> friends and acquaintances that one can afford to lose any.
> 
> I'm a bit surprised at the posts members have put up regarding Tonks.
> Where is the steely eyed suspicion, the rampant  paranoia normally to  
> be expected from HP analysers? From what I've read on the board  
> (again forgive me if I've misread or misunderstood what's been said,  
> but these past few days have been a bit frantic to say the least,  
> much more than HBP and The Open to contend with) fans seem to be  
> pussy-footing around somewhat.

Yahoomort seems to be holding my latest post but I concur. My suspicion is
Polyjuice!Lupin but if not, it's Polyjuice!Someone for sure. The FAQ poll
answer rules the real Tonks out. What about Polyjuice!Sevvy? He keeps saying
he's a great actor, and I need more proof the Patronus is a werewolf. But
perhaps another Order member we do not know too well? Emmeline Vance or Amelia
Bones, if you subscribe to the 'fake murders' theory? Hestia Jones? We don't
really know Eliphas Doge or Kingsley Shacklebolt, although the latter is
probably too busy keeping the PM sweet. Or someone else entirely.

> I'm might be wrong, but I'm not uncertain - the 'Tonks' of HBP bears  
> looking at very closely indeed.

Evidence is circumstantial, we need a Theory!

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 11:50:55 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:50:55 +0100
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
Message-ID: <17537C43-E599-48AB-87CF-1D24B69CCE3A@...>

I'LL
     BE
         GLAD
                 WHEN
                             WE
                                 DON'T
                                             NEED
                                                         TO
                                                                 DO
                                                                         
  THIS
                                                                         
          ANYMORE
                                                                         
                              WON'T
                                                                         
                                          YOU?

A post I made over the weekend, combined with an exchange off-site  
with Talisman has set me to wondering. About Tarot cards.

Now as a believer in divination I can be compared to McGonagall -  
it's not my bag  at all. Though I do have a small confession to make.  
I did fiddle around with a Tarot pack in my distant, disreputable  
days. You see, I'd noticed that an awful lot of the females of the  
species expressed varying - but mostly positive - interest in  
horoscopes etc. And offering to do a personal reading turned out to  
be a surprisingly successful ploy for getting the girls back to my  
place. Happy days.

The four suits of the minor arcana (swords, cups, jewels (or coins)  
and wands -  equating to the modern pack suits of spades, hearts,  
diamonds and clubs  respectively) look as if there're an interesting  
line of enquiry into the relics left by the Founders. Fair enough.

Reading HBP I noticed that one of the key chapters was entitled after  
a card in the major arcana - The Tower Struck By Lightning. Generally  
it's accepted as an indication of change and of endings, with  
overtones of the need to awake and accept necessary change, that the  
shock or disruption was necessary. Hm. Seems applicable, all things  
considered.

There's another of the major arcana that has been represented (after  
a fashion) in the last two books - The Hanged Man. Unlike usual  
hangings, this one is upside down, suspended by his feet (or more  
usually one foot). Though this one doesn't fit quite so readily - it  
usually indicates that the obvious approach to a problem is not the  
best, that restraint and patience will provide a more successful  
conclusion.

Could all be coincidence of course, though those that are enthusiasts  
for this sort of thing will doubtless find other possible connections  
in the deck - The Hierophant; The Wheel of Fortune; Death; The  
Magician; The Fool - I should say that the card name is not always an  
obvious indication of the meanings that can be taken from it - The  
High Priestess for example is not about anything particularly female  
- it's potential, the need to look for the hidden or obscure.

But still - it's interesting that something I'd nearly forgotten  
about *might* have
some small applicability to HP.

Kneasy




From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 11:56:59 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:56:59 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - Tonks
In-Reply-To: <03EBF90B-BC1A-454E-8BD9-F411C3426960@...>
Message-ID: <dbipqb+9824@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> I'LL
>      BE
>          GLAD
>                  WHEN
>                              WE
>                                  DON'T
>                                              NEED
>                                                          TO
>                                                                  DO
>                                                                     
     
>   THIS
>                                                                     
     
>           ANYMORE
>                                                                     
     
>                               WON'T
>                                                                     
     
>                                           YOU?
> 
> 
> Firstly - commiserations to Richard. One can never have so many  
> friends and acquaintances that one can afford to lose any.
> 
> I'm a bit surprised at the posts members have put up regarding 
Tonks.
> Where is the steely eyed suspicion, the rampant  paranoia normally 
to  
> be expected from HP analysers? From what I've read on the board  
> (again forgive me if I've misread or misunderstood what's been 
said,  
> but these past few days have been a bit frantic to say the least,  
> much more than HBP and The Open to contend with) fans seem to be  
> pussy-footing around somewhat.
> 
> Ever the fool willing to rush in where angels fear to tread, I'll  
> come out and say it; if it don't walk like a duck and don't quack  
> like a duck, then it ain't a duck.
> 
> OK, let's see what we've got.
> 
> We all know the Tonks from OoP;  bubbly, clumsy, sociable 
Metamorphagus.
> 
> No  sign of that in HBP. Instead (and this is just after 1.5 read- 
> throughs so  there may be more):
> Miserable, not clumsy, never metamorphoses (yes, a few minor 
changes  
> that  could easily be accomplished by a minor transfiguration 
spell  
> or two - and note that SFAICR nobody sees her make these changes),  
> has a different Patronus (when just a couple of days previously Jo  
> stated categorically that each persons Patronus is unique) and 
avoids  
> spending time with groups of people who presumably know Tonks 
well,  
> e.g. a Weasley social evening).
> 
> In addition she spends time wandering  the corridors of Hogwarts 
near  
> where the RoR or Draino is presumably up to his little tricks; has 
a  
> fellow Auror in Hogwarts (Dawlish) who is not likely to be 
friendly  
> towards DD, and best of all Slytherin have industrial quantities 
of  
> Polyjuice potion stashed away in the basement. Snape's sharp  
> reference to her 'weak' Patronus means something; sending the  
> Patronus was breaking her cover and in his own sweet, inimitable 
way  
> Sevvy was giving her a sharp reminder. He knows what's going on 
and  
> therefore DD probably does too.
> 
> Other characters keep making excuses for her, too. Supposedly  
> mourning for Sirius, then it turns out she hardly knew him.  
> Assumptions that she's pining for Bill - but with absolutely no  
> evidence offered. Typical JKR  sleight of hand IMO.
> 
> Hell's teeth. What more do you want?
> T'ain't Tonks. Though the one at the funeral probably is.
> 
> The question now is "Who is she and which side is she on?"
> 
>snip
> Kneasy

I posted something similar sunday about a Polyjuiced Tonks who is no 
other than Cissy. I think Cissy wanted to keep an eye on her son.
So where was Tonks...Did she willingly allow herself to be polyjuiced 
for some reason? Bribed that a DE knew Lupin was in the Order?   I 
agree that the real Tonks was at the funeral and also with group in 
the group around Bill in the hospital.
Or is this an "ability to love thing" in that unrequited love can 
cause a change in character. I tend to think its Cissy as P!T as she 
would be able to imperio Rosmerta easier and her showing up around 
the ROR.

Fran






From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:03:33 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:03:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <17537C43-E599-48AB-87CF-1D24B69CCE3A@...>
Message-ID: <20050719120333.95354.qmail@...>



--- Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...> wrote:

 I'LL
        BE
                  WHEN
                              WE
                                    DON'T
                                             NEED
                                                         TO
                                                                  DO
                                                                          
   THIS
                                                                        
           ANYMORE
                                                                          
                               WON'T
                                                                          
                                          YOU?


YES


            I


                    WILL!



Snipping all of your post because I have nothing useful to add, but I have been wondering about
the significance of Tarot cards myself.  Anyway, Kneasy, if you have some knowledge in this area
(I have none), can you shed any light on the scene in which Harry overhears Trelawney trying to
interpret her cards?  That scene intrigued me, and I can't believe it doesn't have any
significance.

Catherine
 



		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:05:35 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:05:35 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <17537C43-E599-48AB-87CF-1D24B69CCE3A@...>
Message-ID: <dbiqaf+84gp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
H
E
R
E
W
E
G
O
A
G
A
I
N
W
I
T
H
T
H
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

> Reading HBP I noticed that one of the key chapters was entitled after  
> a card in the major arcana - The Tower Struck By Lightning. Generally  
> it's accepted as an indication of change and of endings, with  
> overtones of the need to awake and accept necessary change, that the  
> shock or disruption was necessary. Hm. Seems applicable, all things  
> considered.
> 

Oh, I forgot to mention - The Tower Struck By Lightning is usually 
depicted as a tower (naturally) with a lightning bolt at the top (again 
naturally) - and with a man falling.
Isn't that interesting?

Kneasy






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:10:02 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:10:02 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <17537C43-E599-48AB-87CF-1D24B69CCE3A@...>
Message-ID: <dbiqiq+ea02@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> I'LL
>      BE
>          GLAD
>                  WHEN
>                              WE
>                                  DON'T
>                                              NEED
>                                                          TO
>                                                                  DO
>                                                                     
     
>   THIS
>                                                                     
     
>           ANYMORE
>                                                                     
     
>                               WON'T
>                                                                     
     
>                                           YOU?
> 
Apologies for snipping....
> 
> There's another of the major arcana that has been represented 
(after  
> a fashion) in the last two books - The Hanged Man. Unlike usual  
> hangings, this one is upside down, suspended by his feet (or more  
> usually one foot). Though this one doesn't fit quite so readily - 
it  
> usually indicates that the obvious approach to a problem is not 
the  
> best, that restraint and patience will provide a more successful  
> conclusion.
> 
> Could all be coincidence of course, though those that are 
enthusiasts  
> for this sort of thing will doubtless find other possible 
connections  
> in the deck - The Hierophant; The Wheel of Fortune; Death; The  
> Magician; The Fool - I should say that the card name is not always 
an  
> obvious indication of the meanings that can be taken from it - The  
> High Priestess for example is not about anything particularly 
female  
> - it's potential, the need to look for the hidden or obscure.
> 
> But still - it's interesting that something I'd nearly forgotten  
> about *might* have
> some small applicability to HP.
> 
> Kneasy

I think the how you interpret the upside down hanged man is very 
applicable. Don't you think this applies to Harry?  He really needs 
to learn how to down shift and think things through.....

The hidden and obscure represented by the High Priestess,IMHO, would 
apply to Harry searching for the remaining horcrocks (the-thing-whose 
name-we-hate)  You are a clever boy, Kneasy! 

Regards,
Fran





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:12:01 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:12:01 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbiqaf+84gp@...>
Message-ID: <dbiqmh+bqmg@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> H
> E
> R
> E
> W
> E
> G
> O
> A
> G
> A
> I
> N
> W
> I
> T
> H
> T
> H
> E
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> 
> > Reading HBP I noticed that one of the key chapters was entitled 
after  
> > a card in the major arcana - The Tower Struck By Lightning. 
Generally  
> > it's accepted as an indication of change and of endings, with  
> > overtones of the need to awake and accept necessary change, that 
the  
> > shock or disruption was necessary. Hm. Seems applicable, all 
things  
> > considered.
> > 
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention - The Tower Struck By Lightning is usually 
> depicted as a tower (naturally) with a lightning bolt at the top 
(again 
> naturally) - and with a man falling.
> Isn't that interesting?
> 
> Kneasy

Forgot to ask you what a regular Hanged Man represents since there is 
a reference to one in the book as well. In Fred and Georges joke 
shop......

Fran





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:18:46 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:18:46 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - Tonks
In-Reply-To: <dbipqb+9824@...>
Message-ID: <dbir36+ecc0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> wrote:
> 
> I posted something similar sunday about a Polyjuiced Tonks who is no 
> other than Cissy. I think Cissy wanted to keep an eye on her son.
> So where was Tonks...Did she willingly allow herself to be polyjuiced 
> for some reason? Bribed that a DE knew Lupin was in the Order?   I 
> agree that the real Tonks was at the funeral and also with group in 
> the group around Bill in the hospital.
> Or is this an "ability to love thing" in that unrequited love can 
> cause a change in character. I tend to think its Cissy as P!T as she 
> would be able to imperio Rosmerta easier and her showing up around 
> the ROR.
> 


Oops!
Missed that somehow - sorry if I've trodden on your toes, it wasn't
intentional.

Cissy looks as if she should be lined up in the identity parade, there's
some motivation there that has credibilty. But before I finally go
overboard and commit myself irrevocably to a specific interpretaion
I'd like to finish my re-read and do a bit of skull work.
Does look as if it (fake Tonks) might be a productive line to take
for some entertaining posts though.

Kneasy 





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:30:14 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:30:14 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - Tonks
In-Reply-To: <dbir36+ecc0@...>
Message-ID: <dbirom+u422@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > I posted something similar sunday about a Polyjuiced Tonks who is 
no 
> > other than Cissy. I think Cissy wanted to keep an eye on her son.
> > So where was Tonks...Did she willingly allow herself to be 
polyjuiced 
> > for some reason? Bribed that a DE knew Lupin was in the Order?   
I 
> > agree that the real Tonks was at the funeral and also with group 
in 
> > the group around Bill in the hospital.
> > Or is this an "ability to love thing" in that unrequited love can 
> > cause a change in character. I tend to think its Cissy as P!T as 
she 
> > would be able to imperio Rosmerta easier and her showing up 
around 
> > the ROR.
> > 
> 
> 
> Oops!
> Missed that somehow - sorry if I've trodden on your toes, it wasn't
> intentional.
> 
> Cissy looks as if she should be lined up in the identity parade, 
there's
> some motivation there that has credibilty. But before I finally go
> overboard and commit myself irrevocably to a specific interpretaion
> I'd like to finish my re-read and do a bit of skull work.
> Does look as if it (fake Tonks) might be a productive line to take
> for some entertaining posts though.
> 
> Kneasy

Glad someone read the Tonks thing as I did..... and it was in a reply 
to another post, Jo's I believe.  I really wonder if Tonks allowed 
herself to be polyjuiced and why.  I mean the Patronus relevation on 
JKR's site prior to the HBP release has to be a clue for us. I can" 
be believe it is some kind of flint.

Fran





From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:32:25 2005
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:32:25 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <20050719120333.95354.qmail@...>
References: <17537C43-E599-48AB-87CF-1D24B69CCE3A@...> <20050719120333.95354.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <20050719123225.GA30574@...>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 05:03:33AM -0700, Catherine Coleman wrote:
> 
> 
> --- Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...> wrote:
> 
>  I'LL
>         BE
>                   WHEN
>                               WE
>                                     DON'T
>                                              NEED
>                                                          TO
>                                                                   DO
>                                                                           
>    THIS
>                                                                         
>            ANYMORE
>                                                                           
>                                WON'T
>                                                                           
>                                           YOU?
> 
> 
> YES
> 
> 
>             I
> 
> 
>                     WILL!
> 
> 
> 
> Snipping all of your post because I have nothing useful to add, but I have been wondering about
> the significance of Tarot cards myself.  Anyway, Kneasy, if you have some knowledge in this area
> (I have none), can you shed any light on the scene in which Harry overhears Trelawney trying to
> interpret her cards?  That scene intrigued me, and I can't believe it doesn't have any
> significance.

While I'm awaiting the retrival of no less than three reposts that Yahoomort
has seen fit to hide, I'll take a stab for you based on my own Tarot
experience.

Firstly Trelawney insists that the same cards come out in every layout she
tries. There are almost as many layouts as there are Tarot readers, but all
you need to know is that a card's significance comes as much from its position
as its own particular interpretation. Probably Sybil is so excited by the
meaning of the card that it doesn't matter where the card came, which is a
pity because it would be a more useful clue. Again, some see significance in
whether the card is upside-down or not; depending on who you believe it either
inverts the cards meaning or lessens its impact. 

I went into detail because the card is pretty serious: the Tower is a symbol
of a calamity that has been some time in the making. Hardliners see it as a
retribution for building a foolish structure; others see it as a more natural
re-balance however sudden. There is a sense that the disaster is a necessary
purge, a clearing-out of deadwood. Now the penultimate death scene is entitled
The Lightning-Struck Tower so there might be some significance for Hogwarts
there, certainly it's the end of an era and a shock for all.

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:35:50 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:35:50 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <17537C43-E599-48AB-87CF-1D24B69CCE3A@...>
Message-ID: <dbis36+49a8@...>

Spoil
spoiled
spoiling
spoiler
spoilee
spoilt
spoils








--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> 
> There's another of the major arcana that has been represented 
(after  
> a fashion) in the last two books - The Hanged Man. Unlike usual  
> hangings, this one is upside down, suspended by his feet (or more  
> usually one foot). Though this one doesn't fit quite so readily - 
it  
> usually indicates that the obvious approach to a problem is not the  
> best, that restraint and patience will provide a more successful  
> conclusion.
> 
> > 
> Kneasy

Yes, you are a genius!
I posted earlier on about the potential significance of those spells 
young Sevvy invented, one of course being to hang your enemy upside 
down....

Quick look at web sites gives me this interpretation of the Hanged man

"The sacrifice he has made is his own freedom and power in the 
physical world; in exchange, he is granted real freedom and power on 
the spiritual plane. He gives up his old ways of looking at things and 
is blessed with new eyes."
The hanged man apparently represents wisdom through sacrifice.

Can you *do* anything with Sectumsempra? Any ideas on the linguistic 
origins of this particular incantation.

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the time 
was ripe for a cheese cauldron.






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:40:29 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:40:29 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
In-Reply-To: <dbi8hi+hdnu@...>
Message-ID: <dbisbt+12r3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pip at e...> wrote:
> (To the tune of the original Doctor Who theme music)
> Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
> Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
> Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
> Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space
> [pause]
> Wah Wah aaaaaaaahhh!
> 
> M
> O
> R
> E
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> Pippin wrote:
> > When has Harry ever paid attention to Snape? It's perfectly in
> > character that he would forget the cramped handwriting --Snape's 
> > handwriting on Harry's papers tends to run more to large capital 
> > T's, I think. I do think that Harry was steered to that book on 
> > purpose./Somebody/ wanted him to have it. Notice that apart from 
> >  Ron, none of the other students in the class were unprepared. 
> > Surely they didn't all get Outstandings? Nope, definitely dodgy.
> > 
> 
> Pip:
> I presume DD must have known which OWL grades Harry got, and then 
> promptly made sure that the *Potions* master was replaced - with 
one 
> who accepted 'Exceeds Expectations' students.
> 
> And he didn't tell Harry what Slughorn taught, so Harry didn't know 
> to get the textbook and supplies. Again, presumably he must know 
> that Harry expressed the ambition to be an auror to McGonagall. But 
> why is it so important that Harry know potions?
> 
> As to the book - do you think there are charms that can be set on 
> something, so that it's given to a particular person?
> 
> 
>  
> > Pippin:
> > To show that the rot in the Ministry is systemic rather than a
> > matter of a few bad apples in the barrel. It has to be, to set up
> > the stage for ESE!Lupin. Lupin the spy on the werewolves is
> > confirmed as predicted, and notice how he said they were his
> > "equals." And he's the one who tells us the mist is because
> > the dementors are breeding, confirming his knowledge of 
> > these creatures.
> 
> Pip:
> Snape didn't like Tonk's patronus - which we now know is a 
werewolf. 
> He says it 'looks weak'. Now this could refer to how ill Lupin is - 
> but it could also signal an ESE Lupin who turns to the DE's out of 
> weakness - despair at the corruption of the WW, despair at the way 
> werewolves are treated.
> 
> Pip!Squeak
> 
> "Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
> known how to act?" - Severus Snape

Dont buy the patronus was a werewolf. Can you explain why JKR's 
answer to fact poll question said a person's patronus is unique and 
that is how they can trust it is from a specific person. 

Also, where in canon does it say the patronus was a werewolf. The 
picture to me looks like a horse.
Fran





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 12:52:54 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:52:54 +0100
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards
Message-ID: <E75B1CE1-0DC8-4B66-A52A-210416C52730@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman  
<catorman at y...> wrote:
M
O
R
E
S
P
A
C
E
Y
S
P
A
C
Y

 >
 > Snipping all of your post because I have nothing useful to add,  
but I have been wondering about
 > the significance of Tarot cards myself.  Anyway, Kneasy, if you  
have some knowledge in this area
 > (I have none), can you shed any light on the scene in which Harry  
overhears Trelawney trying to
 > interpret her cards?  That scene intrigued me, and I can't believe  
it doesn't have any
 > significance.
 >

I agree, it probably does - though she's not reading a Tarot deck -  
there's
no Knave in Tarot - two cards replace it - the Page and the Knight.
She's obviously got her own favourite pack of cards and is consulting  
it.
What we don't know is what she's trying to find out - you're supposed
to  shuffle and deal with a fairly specific question in mind and this is
supposed to influence which cards turn up in which position. Position  
can
influence the reading too. It can get very complicated.

But as far as I can remember without claiming to be totally accurate,  
the
meanings she speaks could be right - sevens usually do depict trouble
and tens can mean sudden or violent  change.

One thing to remember is that Tarot cards can be reversed -  they do not
look the same either way up as the standard pack does - and a reversal
changes the meaning, not usually to the opposite of what right-way-up
means.

 > Fran;
 > Forgot to ask what a regular Hanged Man represents since there is  
a           > reference to one in the book as well. In Fred and  
Georges joke shop....

Sorry, there isn't one - just the upside down variety






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 13:22:26 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:22:26 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - Tonks
In-Reply-To: <03EBF90B-BC1A-454E-8BD9-F411C3426960@...>
Message-ID: <dbiuqi+lql0@...>

Red
Herring
Is
My
Favorite
Fish
Red
Herring
Is
My
Favorite
Fish

Kneasy: 
> Firstly - commiserations to Richard. One can never have so many  
> friends and acquaintances that one can afford to lose any.

Pippin:
Ditto. Wish there was something we could do.

Kneasy:
> I'm a bit surprised at the posts members have put up regarding
Tonks.
> Where is the steely eyed suspicion, the rampant  paranoia normally
to   be expected from HP analysers? From what I've read on the board  
 (again forgive me if I've misread or misunderstood what's been
said,   but these past few days have been a bit frantic to say the
least,  
 much more than HBP and The Open to contend with) fans seem to be  
pussy-footing around somewhat.


> 
> Ever the fool willing to rush in where angels fear to tread, I'll  
> come out and say it; if it don't walk like a duck and don't quack  
> like a duck, then it ain't a duck.

Pippin:
Just to be contrarian, I think it is a duck. We've been told before
that despair drains a wizard of his powers. And it could be that 
Tonks's clumsiness is a side effect of her metamorph ability. 
Think about it, if your body is protean,  constantly rearranging i
tself, how can balance ever become instinctive?

As for the shift in patronus, I don't think unique means unchangeable.
My license plate is unique to my car, but it can be issued a different
one. That no one else could conjure Tonks's patronus doesn't mean 
that it would always have to stay the same. It might foreshadow a 
change in Harry's patronus; a symbol of his truly becoming a man, 
something that represents the best of Harry, not James.

Pippin





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 13:32:48 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:32:48 -0000
Subject: thoughts on Snape and those horseducks
Message-ID: <dbive0+ktfh@...>

SPOILERS

MY COUSIN JAN IS SO MAD AT HER KID.  

HE GOT TO READ THE BOOK FIRST.

AND HE LET IT SLIP WHICH 

CHARACTER DIED.

HOOOOOBOY- COLD GRITS FOR HIM FOR A WEEK!


3 thoughts here:

1) Snape remembers a small boy crying and a man with a hooked nose 
yelling at a cowering woman.  Kneasy's Snape!Son theory seems to have 
gotten a boost, but........

Pippin (gosh, that was a while ago, I hope it was you) asked why a 
witch would be cowering at a Muggle.  I just figured that Pippin 
wasn't the cowering type and wouldn't understand, but then I got to 
thinking.  

Hmm.  Wouldn't Harry have specified if the man with the hooked nose 
were wearing Muggle clothes?  Toby Snape, as a Muggle wouldn't be 
wearing Wizard clothes.  Maybe Eileen is being yelled at by her 
father.  Sevvie gets the hooked nose from Grandpa Prince.  Maybe 
Eileen disgraced the family by marrying a Muggle, and then he left 
her.  Papa came and yelled at her for bringing shame on the family, 
and Snape gets his anti-Muggle attitude the same way LV did.  It 
would certainly explain why he used his mother's name for his 
nickname.  Didn't want to be associated with Dad.  Like LV.

Thoughts?

2)  Herm says that the handwriting looks like a girl's.  The book is 
50 years old.  Maybe Eileen wrote the potion stuff in it, which is 
why they don't recognize the handwriting.  Perhaps Snape added in the 
spells and to whom the book belongs.  They could have very similar 
handwriting, which, since it is small and cramped makes it hard to 
distinguish.  My dad and I have very similar handwriting, which is 
why we both print.  No one can read it.

3)  If LV discovers that some of his horcruxes are destroyed (he 
certainly knows about the diary-he gave LM hell for it) what is to 
stop him from making more?  He is a pretty accomplished murderer.  
All he'd have to do is pop into 98-year-old Muggle Mildred Peabody's 
apartment, AK her (poor gal, high cholesterol), nick her toenail 
clippers, make a horcrux and POOF!  He's got a new horcrux and a new 
set of toenail clippers to boot.  Not bad for a day's work.  And no 
one would know.  

Yes, he is a creature of habit, but desperate times call for 
desperate measures.  And who can refuse free toenail clippers?

Ginger, extending condolences to Richard as well.





From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 13:35:46 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP Spoilers - Tonks
In-Reply-To: <dbiuqi+lql0@...>
Message-ID: <20050719133546.18770.qmail@...>



--- pippin_999 <foxmoth at ...> wrote:

> Red
> Herring
> Is
> My
> Favorite
> Fish
> Red
> Herring
> Is
> My
> Favorite
> Fish
> 
> Kneasy: 
> > Firstly - commiserations to Richard. One can never have so many  
> > friends and acquaintances that one can afford to lose any.
> 
> Pippin:
> Ditto. Wish there was something we could do.
> 
> Kneasy:
> > I'm a bit surprised at the posts members have put up regarding
> Tonks.
> > Where is the steely eyed suspicion, the rampant  paranoia normally
> to   be expected from HP analysers? From what I've read on the board  
>  (again forgive me if I've misread or misunderstood what's been
> said,   but these past few days have been a bit frantic to say the
> least,  
>  much more than HBP and The Open to contend with) fans seem to be  
> pussy-footing around somewhat.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Ever the fool willing to rush in where angels fear to tread, I'll  
> > come out and say it; if it don't walk like a duck and don't quack  
> > like a duck, then it ain't a duck.
> 
> Pippin:
> Just to be contrarian, I think it is a duck. We've been told before
> that despair drains a wizard of his powers. And it could be that 
> Tonks's clumsiness is a side effect of her metamorph ability. 
> Think about it, if your body is protean,  constantly rearranging i
> tself, how can balance ever become instinctive?


Yes - and to reiterate this point in the context of Tonks, as Dumbledore says when discussing
Merope:  "Of course, it is also possible that her unrequited love and the attendant despair sapped
her of her powers;  that can happen."

I'm no longer sure, after reading the scene in which she rescues Harry from the scene, that her
unrequited love for Lupin made her less lacking in purpose though.  Less clumsy yes, due to loss
of exuberance, but not lackadaisical:  "Now she seemed older and much more serious and
purposeful."

Catherine, having odd thoughts about Tonks and Philip Pullman, which are not forming properly


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 13:58:10 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:58:10 -0000
Subject: HBP: First Read Rant (Neri's disappointment)
In-Reply-To: <dbiemi+ikr1@...>
Message-ID: <dbj0ti+b8pr@...>

Horsebox
Horsebox
Who's got the
Horsebox?

David:
> It is something of a disappointment to me that the things that seem 
> to me to be the really important mysteries - the power that 
> Voldemort knows not, why he didn't die, etc are either slipped in 
> casually or, as you say, McGuffins.  (Though to be fair, the
Horcrux  idea does have some coherence - it's not just a sonic 
screwdriver of  immortality.)
> 
> Whereas the identity of a traitor, while of course great fun and 
> interesting and an integral part of the plot and all that, always 
> seemed secondary.

Pippin:
Ah, but the motive of the traitor is JKR's grand statement on the
mystery of evil, along with Snape's still secret motive for
repentance, presuming he did repent (more on this theory later.)

 I mean Voldemort is just a jumped up Ted Bundy,
and she seems to be saying that his real life counterparts are
the same, but the Big Question for a liberal, you see, is not what 
made (forgive the Godwinism) Hitler a Nazi, but what
made so many reasonably decent Germans want to be Nazis too.

Because the heart and soul of liberalism is the belief that most
people are reasonably decent to start with, and Jo has made no
secret that she believes that.

Also, I think the bad fanfic rap is undeserved, unless it's Harry or
Ron or Hermione who sound like bad fanfic, and I don't think they
ever do. One of the things fan fiction writers can do that Jo can't
is elevate the second tier characters to first tier status. 
Snape can't be allowed to take over the story and one of the ways
to make him keep his distance is to have him tell rather than show.

Basically the story is about Harry--how Snape managed to snow 
Voldemort is only relevant insofar as it suggests he might be
snowing Harry or Dumbledore.

And as for the lack of fireworks in the H/G romance, that's typical
of an epic hero. Harry's got a world to save, he can't devote
equal emotional energy to getting the girl or the whole thing
turns into farce. 

Pippin
Who always thought the alchemy was just another borrowing,
like the Hand of Glory or Tarot cards 





From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 14:08:29 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:08:29 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP Spoilers - Tonks
In-Reply-To: <03EBF90B-BC1A-454E-8BD9-F411C3426960@...>
Message-ID: <000401c58c6b$572a5ab0$0200a8c0@hwin>

Barry'll 
     BE
         GLAD
                 WHEN
                             WE
                                 DON'T
                                             NEED
                                                         TO
                                                                 DO
                                                              
           
  THIS
                                                              
           
          ANYMORE ...

... but the more perverse among us will howl at the moon.

* * * * *

> Hell's teeth. What more do you want?
> T'ain't Tonks. Though the one at the funeral probably is.

Nnngh. Don't buy. I'm following your Pippin here.

They say that all things are fair in love and war, but with Jo, all bets
are off in love and death. No, I can't prove it, but I just have this
feeling, that that's the way she runs her show. She'll do anything she
can to bamboozle us otherwise, but in matters of mortality and amour,
she's not going to fake us out. 

With death, I think it's because she takes it too seriously -
particuarly, the finality of death. Deus ex style resurrections seem
like the sort of thing that would cross the line. (Which is why I can't
imagine any way that Dumbledore is still alive.) 

With love, I'm not so sure, but it just doesn't sound right. I think it
was important to her to show Tonks pining away for love - to some degree
to show a more serious kind of love than the teenagers understand yet.
It seemed like a counterbalance of sorts.

It also touches on some other issues that are important to her, like
racial stuff (here connected to Lupin's werewolfism).

Finally: She used Tonk's odd behavior to wave red herrings at us all
book long. When she ended it all by identifying Lupin as the true source
of Tonks troubles - well, I'd like to put it this way: she cashed in her
narrative chips. I think that game is over now, and to drdge up the
thing with a whole new interpretation would be tiresome - or at least
just doesn't feel to me like the way Jo writes.

Just my two Knuts - and it's mostly a touchy-feely-instinctive thing
that has a lot to do with my intuitions about the way Jo plays her
narrative hand than good, hard argument.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 14:35:15 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:35:15 -0000
Subject: HPB: The proof of repentance
Message-ID: <dbj333+n1vl@...>

"YOU
HAVEN'T"
Harry 
yelled.
"YOU'VE
GOT
THE
WRONG
MAN!"
*
GREAT
BIG
THUMPING
SPOILER
AHEAD
DON'T
READ
ANY
FURTHER
IF
YOU
HAVEN'T FINISHED...
I TELL YOU ONCE,
I TELL YOU TWICE,
WHAT  I TELL YOU THREE TIMES
IS TRUE.

>>Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle 
of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping. Harry 
reached out, straightened the half-moon spectacles upon 
the crooked nose, and wiped a trickle
of blood from the mouth with his own sleeve.<<

Okay, there are not one but three things in that paragraph
that don't fit with AK. The trickle of blood, the  closed eyes,
and the peaceful expression. Cedric's eyes were open, so were 
Sirius's, and they died looking surprised. The Riddle family died 
"Lying there with their eyes wide open!" and "a look of terror"
on their faces. And that, needless to say, was all that was wrong.
No blood, of course. Avada Kedavra leaves no sign.

So the AK didn't kill Dumbledore. But if we're to trust Bella,
the AK is itself proof of the intention to kill. That is, it's 
Unforgivable because it doesn't work unless you really mean
it. Unless you're prepared to take the life of a Being with the
same cold-blooded indifference with which Fake!Moody 
dispatched the spiders and Wormtail killed the spare, the
curse will fail. 

The question is, though, if you do intend to
kill, can you block it from succeeding if it's performed
correctly otherwise? I don't think you can.

If Snape meant Dumbledore to die, either from the fall or
the poison, I don't think he could have kept the curse from
working. And it's obvious that it didn't work. 

Now maybe Dumbledore thought he could save himself,
and maybe he did, or maybe that part of the plan went
rather spectacularly pear-shaped -- time will tell.
But what we saw is the final proof of Dumbledore's 
trust in Snape -- he knew the curse wouldn't kill him,
because Snape was no longer a murderer.

I think Dumbledore withheld the proof of Snape's
repentance because it *was* proof. It would leave
absolutely no doubt in Harry's mind -- or
Voldemort's-- that Snape was faithful.
As Harry is no Occlumens and never will be, that
would be very bad news for Snape.

There is only one guaranteed proof of loyalty. Snape
must have summoned Fawkes. As Dumbledore
says in CoS, only someone who showed him
real loyalty could do that. And notice how Fawkes
sang out in HPB when Harry pledged his loyalty
to Dumbledore again.

Pippin





From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 14:44:33 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (Sean Dwyer)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:44:33 -0000
Subject: HBP Ranty rant
Message-ID: <dbj3kh+lu8f@...>

The inevitable Spoiler Money FILK:

SPOILERS - get away
Get a HBP at low cost and you're okay
SPOILERS - they're a gas
Grab that clue with both hands and make a dash
New star, Sluggy's bar, Luna daydream think i'll buy me a Quidditch team

SPOILERS - I'm hooked
Get your own tome, keep your mitts offa my book.
SPOILERS - they're a hit
Don't give me that "tell them everything" Horksit
I'm in the high-risk category owl-class Apparating set and I think I
need a werewolf

SPOILERS - make you sigh
Hoard them meanly and don't let a new one pass you by
SPOILERS - so they say
Are the source of Old Crowd FILK'ing today
But if you ask for a clue it's no surprise
that we're giving none away
away
awaaay
away
awayyyy
awayyyy

THIS SPOILER SPACE FOR RENT

I laughed so hard at the Doctor Who theme my dog got upset.

> Pip:
> Snape didn't like Tonk's patronus - which we now know is a werewolf.
> He says it 'looks weak'. Now this could refer to how ill Lupin is -
> but it could also signal an ESE Lupin who turns to the DE's out of
> weakness - despair at the corruption of the WW, despair at the way
> werewolves are treated.

Ewe2:
Having had my suspicions of Tonk's Patronus somewhat hijacked in the
discussion, I'll make my point more firmly. I think that "Tonks" was
Polyjuiced!Lupin; it's horribly Flinty of JKR to post an FAQ answer
that direct and clear otherwise.

<rant>

And while we're on the subject of rants; apologies to some who were
horrified at the general Shippiness of HBP, but Hermione is giving me
real grief second read through. Yes Ron is backward in many ways, and
like most boys is unaware of the _ever so important_ emotional issues;
but he's just discovered kissing and the person he'd most like to kiss
is NOT GIVING HIM A CHANCE. I've spent a fair time defending Hermione
in some quarters and dissing her, but she is one whacked-out girl if
she can't express her feelings better than physical assault by canary,
and I'm not too happy how that appears to happen in a vaccum. No
queries by other students and teachers as to why Ron is covered in
scratches? No apparent resolution of that particular spat e.g. "Ron,
I'm sorry I had small birds gouge your flesh"? Yes, they are a petty
pair, but Hermione's emotional control-freak attitude to romance
disturbs me more than Ron's more run-of-the-mill possessiveness, which
he at least expresses openly compared to Madam Whiplash. Like many
relationships over the series, they haven't improved. JKR seems rather
obsessed with romantic stubbornness.

Of course it's more than just the R/H tussle; with breathtaking
hypocrisy, Hermione attempt to blame Harry for her own assumptions
about his use of the Felix Felicis, quite apart from her own
manipuation of Ron's Quidditch tryout. Easy and wrong. Like her
certainties about HBP and Draco. And no, H/H shippers, I wouldn't get
hopeful about hints of jealousy towards Ginny. I think _that_ myth is
busted.

</rant>

> "Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not
> known how to act?" - Severus Snape

Hollywood? <quack!>

--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 14:58:17 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:58:17 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
Message-ID: <dbj4e9+natp@...>

There once was a Master of Potions
.
Who followed his vengeful notions.
.
He'd sneer and he'd snark
.
He'd lurk in the dark,
.
Thus, inflaming the readers' emotions.
.

Well, that's the limit of my creativity and this is the end of my 
spoiler space.

The Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview is up. Here's one site:


http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml

There's as much meat to work over in it as there is in the book! How 
is a person to keep up with all this?

She answers the question, "Is Snape evil?"  

Yes she does! She answers the question.

She also blows some theories about Lily's sacrifice out of the water 
onto harsh dry land to wither and be forgotten...well, never 
forgotten.

This is the sort of interview we need half way between books, not 
right after a book!!!

Kathy W
Potioncat





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 15:03:56 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:03:56 -0000
Subject: OT: Why I shall be silent for a while
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050719025925.009c2310@...>
Message-ID: <dbj4os+7pmh@...>

Aaah, Richard.  I am so sorry.  

Peace,
Amy





From entropymail at entropymail.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 15:16:15 2005
From: entropymail at entropymail.yahoo.invalid (entropymail)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:16:15 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - - ESE! Flitwick
Message-ID: <dbj5fv+r45l@...>

Hi there, all. Posted this one on the main board, but it's just so
swamped over there...

Anyway, I sure would like some help with this one. If you could give
me some reaction, some help in proving/disproving the idea, it would
be much appreciated. Here's how it goes:

We think that the scene in which Flitwick runs down to rouse Snape is
quite suspicious. Snape could have been alerted in many other ways,
such as the Order's patronus method. But JKR chose to have Flitwick
alert Snape and, more importantly, to have Hermione and Luna witness
him enter and exit the room but *not* witness what actually happened
while he was in there. Their testimony of what happened is only what
they could gather from listening in.

Here's a rough sketch of what we believe may have happened:

1. Flitwick runs into Snape's office late at night. He finds Snape
either asleep or off-guard. Don't forget, Flitwick is part goblin, and
we have had no evidence throughout the book that the goblins would
choose to side with the Ministry against Voldemort.

2. Tiny Flitwick performs a switching-like spell, changing Snape's
mind into Flitwick's body and vice versa. Don't forget -- Flitwick is
the Charms teacher and could probably easily perform a nonverbal charm
that Hermione and Luna could not detect. Then, as Flitwick!Snape, and
having the obvious physical advantage, he knocks out Snape!Flitwick,
leaving a nasty bump on his head.

3. Flitwick!Snape runs past Hermione and Luna, toward the DEs gathered
on the tower. In order to get there, he must break through the
invisible barrier that others could not. How could he have done this?
Remember Flitwick's part-goblin heritage. In the same way that
house-elves have their own sort of magic and can, for example apparate
and disappate in Hogwarts, goblins must also have their own immunities
to wizarding charms.

4. After Flitwick!Snape AK's Dumbledore, he runs down the stairs and
believing that he has achieved what he set out to do, mutters "It's
over." Harry takes this to mean that Dumbledore has been killed, but
it seems a good point at which Flitwick!Snape could have removed the
switching-like spell and returned into his normal body.

5. At this point, Snape is returned to his own body, and realizes what
has occurred. Bound to protect both Harry and now Draco, he chooses to
remain undercover and flee with Draco. Notice how he duels with Harry;
only blocking Harry's hexes, but never returning them.

As we said this is just a sketch of what we think occurred, but all of
the pieces seem to fit quite nicely. Besides, we just can't give up on
Snape just yet!

:: Entropy ::







From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 15:25:37 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:25:37 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbj4e9+natp@...>
References: <dbj4e9+natp@...>
Message-ID: <20050719152537.GD6507@...>

There once was a penguin of somewhere

Who tried to write limericks as spoilers

He didn't have time

To make sure things rhymed properly

And incurred the wrath of some deadly sheep who happened to be passing.

Don't read this.

It might spoil the fun of reading a book you have had for *five* days now and
*still haven't finished*. Do it NOW before deadly sheep come YOUR way!!!


> The Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview is up. Here's one site:
> 
> 
> http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml
> 
> There's as much meat to work over in it as there is in the book! How 
> is a person to keep up with all this?
> 
> She answers the question, "Is Snape evil?"  
> 
> Yes she does! She answers the question.

Not really. She ducks the question rather expertly. If we want to think
ESE!Snape we have something to point at, but if we want to think
Suspicious!Harry we also have something to point at. Trusting!DD has been
around for a while, too. If you mean that DD really does *not* have a
confidante in Snape, it does tip the scales, but we don't know enough to be
sure.

 
> She also blows some theories about Lily's sacrifice out of the water 
> onto harsh dry land to wither and be forgotten...well, never 
> forgotten.

Yes, but...she really _doesn't_ answer the question. WHY did Voldy give her a
choice? What's the point, if all he was intending to do was to kill her after
Harry? A lot of waffle about James rushing in, but that wasn't the question.

> This is the sort of interview we need half way between books, not 
> right after a book!!!

And they say it's only a 10th of the full interview. Wicked. I don't think
we're getting any interview for quite a while after this. Perhaps after the
next movie where she might be forced to do *some* press, if only for the DVD.

ewe2, penguin of mystery muhahaha

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 15:26:55 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:26:55 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler Voldy and the Dementors
Message-ID: <dbj63v+bm93@...>


My best friend is Hermione
Well 2nd only to Ron
I'm the boy of fate
But I can't think straight
Addled by the phoenix song

OK no where near as good as pink floyd
I laughed so hard at that my cat left the room





I posted this on the main board but have been wondering:

What would happen if a dementor kissed Prime!Voldy?

Regards

Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 15:49:40 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:49:40 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - Tonks
In-Reply-To: <000401c58c6b$572a5ab0$0200a8c0@hwin>
Message-ID: <dbj7ek+pp32@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray" 
<aberforthsgoat at h...> wrote:
S
A
C
E
I
S
E
M
P
T
Y
E
X
C
E
P
T
F
O
R
E
V
E
R
Y
T
H
I
N
G

> 
> Nnngh. Don't buy. I'm following your Pippin here.
> snip 
> 
> With love, I'm not so sure, but it just doesn't sound right. I think it
> was important to her to show Tonks pining away for love - to some degree
> to show a more serious kind of love than the teenagers understand yet.
> It seemed like a counterbalance of sorts.
> 
> It also touches on some other issues that are important to her, like
> racial stuff (here connected to Lupin's werewolfism).
> 
> Finally: She used Tonk's odd behavior to wave red herrings at us all
> book long. When she ended it all by identifying Lupin as the true source
> of Tonks troubles - well, I'd like to put it this way: she cashed in her
> narrative chips. I think that game is over now, and to drdge up the
> thing with a whole new interpretation would be tiresome - or at least
> just doesn't feel to me like the way Jo writes.
> 
> Just my two Knuts - and it's mostly a touchy-feely-instinctive thing
> that has a lot to do with my intuitions about the way Jo plays her
> narrative hand than good, hard argument.
> 

Oh, you (and Pippin and others) must stick to your convictions.
If you don't I'm going to have no-one to contend with, and that
would be frustrating. Can't have everyone going round agreeing
with each other, it'd be unbearable.

Anyway, I've done a bit more of my re-read this afternoon - and
has anyone else noticed? Tonks get called Nyphadora more often
than one would expect for a person who dislikes the name and
insists that she should be just 'Tonks'.

This gives me an idea - 'Tonks' is indeed Tonks - but not *the*
Tonks - she's Andromeda Tonks - Nympho's mother, member of
the Order, married to a Muggle, another disgraced Black - and 
Nyphadora is used as a reminder to her of just which Tonks she's 
supposed to be.
Cunning, eh?

Kneasy





From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 15:53:14 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:53:14 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - - ESE! Flitwick
In-Reply-To: <dbj5fv+r45l@...>
Message-ID: <dbj7la+dv3n@...>

Entropy wrote:

> 4. After Flitwick!Snape AK's Dumbledore, he runs down the stairs 
and believing that he has achieved what he set out to do, 
mutters "It's over." Harry takes this to mean that Dumbledore has 
been killed, but it seems a good point at which Flitwick!Snape could 
have removed the switching-like spell and returned into his normal 
body.
> 
> 5. At this point, Snape is returned to his own body, and realizes 
what has occurred. Bound to protect both Harry and now Draco, he 
chooses to remain undercover and flee with Draco. Notice how he 
duels with Harry; only blocking Harry's hexes, but never returning 
them.
> 

Dungrollin:
You're forgetting the unbreakable vow: "...if it seems Draco will 
fail ... will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered 
Draco to perform?"

If Snape breaks the vow, he will die.  If DD dies in any way other 
than being killed by either Draco or Snape, Snape will have broken 
his vow, and will die. So I'm afraid it *was* Snape.

But I think he and DD had this all worked out beforehand. Snape knew 
all about the plan: "He intends me to do it in the end, I think."  
Voldy getting revenge on Lucius by using Draco was just a bit of 
icing, he was really testing Snape's loyalty. Snape of course 
discussed this with DD, and I don't believe it was the first time DD 
sat down with his double agent and pondered what would happen if 
Voldy told Snape to off DD. DD thought Harry would be better off 
having Snape on his side still pretending loyalty to Voldy, than 
having DD alive and Snape dead (or both dead, if the suspectedly 
fatal protection around the horcrux was indeed fatal - I wonder if 
Fawkes was instrumental in getting hold of the ring). 

Snape got cold feet - that's what Hagrid overheard. He's the master 
of self-control, but he's on the wagon as far as Dark Arts are 
concerned, and it's not easy. In killing DD (who I reckon was on his 
way out after that potion anyway) on DD's orders, Snape saves 
himself, he saves Draco, he may have saved DD from an awfully 
unpleasant death, and he gets the DEs out of Hogwarts, without 
another dark spell, and without hurting Harry or anyone else, while 
not breaking his cover and thus furthering the goals of the Order in 
destroying Voldy.

Interesting question though: if you tarnish your soul 
altruistically, for the ultimate greater good of finally vanquishing 
Voldy forever, does it count? 

And count for what? We've had a good lot of mentions of souls now, 
about how losing them or damaging them is a Bad Thing. But JKR has 
resolutely stayed away from the consequences of staining one's soul.

I don't think it should count, but then I'm an atheist with no 
understanding of that kind of scoring system.

Dungrollin






From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 16:09:03 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:09:03 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP spoiler Voldy and the Dementors
In-Reply-To: <dbj63v+bm93@...>
References: <dbj63v+bm93@...>
Message-ID: <20050719160903.GE6507@...>

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 03:26:55PM -0000, mooseming wrote:
> 
> My best friend is Hermione
> Well 2nd only to Ron
> I'm the boy of fate
> But I can't think straight
> Addled by the phoenix song
> 
> OK no where near as good as pink floyd
> I laughed so hard at that my cat left the room

No sense of humour, the lot of them.

> I posted this on the main board but have been wondering:
> 
> What would happen if a dementor kissed Prime!Voldy?

Assuming he's all out of hoardycracks, I reckon they'd have to get in a few
DE's before they could call it a meal. Growing Dementors and all, they're
going to need feeding up and fast. What's a baby dementor look like? Small and
cold and clings to your leg? Running around attacking family pets...ewwwwww...

ewe2, soul penguin no. 5 (i got soul and im super baaad! HEY)

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 16:17:06 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:17:06 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <20050719152537.GD6507@...>
Message-ID: <dbj922+4psh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewe2 at 4...> wrote:

SO, I SHOULD BE STUDYING FOR MY EXAMS

BUT CONCERTI ALL START SOUNDING THE SAME AFTER A WHILE

BESIDES, IT'S SO MISERABLY HUMID THAT MY FLOORING IS WARPING

IT COULD ALWAYS BE WORSE, I KNOW
 
> Not really. She ducks the question rather expertly. If we want to 
> think ESE!Snape we have something to point at, but if we want to 
> think Suspicious!Harry we also have something to point at. Trusting!
> DD has been around for a while, too. If you mean that DD really 
> does *not* have a confidante in Snape, it does tip the scales, but 
> we don't know enough to be sure.

RightHandMan!Snape has been a popular theory before, but it's pretty 
nuked by this.  It is interesting to go back and think of things now 
with fewer assumptions that Snape and DD are working hand in hand.  
Potentially very damaging to a certain appliance, I think.  I like 
the idea of Snape being more of a loose canon and DD playing more of 
it by ear, though.

>> She also blows some theories about Lily's sacrifice out of the 
>> water onto harsh dry land to wither and be forgotten...well, never 
>> forgotten.
> 
> Yes, but...she really _doesn't_ answer the question. WHY did Voldy 
> give her a choice? What's the point, if all he was intending to do 
> was to kill her after Harry? A lot of waffle about James rushing 
> in, but that wasn't the question.

He gave her a choice because he was at least making a go at honoring 
a promise to one of his favorite DEs, who'd tipped him off about the 
Potters being useful in the first place.  Sure, when she's stubborn 
he says 'forget about it' and just kills her, but hey--he tried, what 
more could a lowly minion want?

I speak, of course, about the 'Snape wanted Lily for himself' theory, 
Too EWWW to be TREWWW.  Which just got a big shot of support in the 
bum.

-Nora (takes a study break because too much Corelli at once can be 
fatal) 





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 16:29:05 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:29:05 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbj922+4psh@...>
Message-ID: <dbj9oh+ikrv@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:

> 
> RightHandMan!Snape has been a popular theory before, but it's pretty 
> nuked by this.  It is interesting to go back and think of things now 
> with fewer assumptions that Snape and DD are working hand in hand.  
> Potentially very damaging to a certain appliance, I think.  I like 
> the idea of Snape being more of a loose canon and DD playing more of 
> it by ear, though.

Pippin:
Nah, it isn't. Everything she said about Dumbledore being too 
trusting and too detached applies just as well to ESE!Lupin. 

Pippin





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 16:39:40 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:39:40 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: OT: Why I shall be silent for a while
In-Reply-To: <dbj4os+7pmh@...>
References: <4.2.0.58.20050719025925.009c2310@...>
	 <dbj4os+7pmh@...>
Message-ID: <a6363246050719093965e6632b@...>

So am I. My thoughts and condolences to you as well as to the family of your 
friend.

On 7/19/05, Amy Z <lupinesque at ...> wrote:
> 
>  Aaah, Richard. I am so sorry. 
> 
> Peace,
> Amy
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  SPONSORED LINKS 
>   Half blood prince<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Half+blood+prince&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=Cli6H4Ry1hAjrVrzjsDb5Q>  Albus 
> dumbledore<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Albus+dumbledore&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=yh94YsYSv104wPI70UHX-g>  Jk 
> rowling<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Jk+rowling&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=F0Dx9jF8lCJXz_IBOnz1NQ>   Goblet 
> of fire<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Goblet+of+fire&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=lGh147_z-oIKoVci8gxhow>  Organizational 
> culture<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organizational+culture&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=a2XQQnp_KZF0meKUSbm4pw>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 16:50:09 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:50:09 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbj9oh+ikrv@...>
Message-ID: <dbjb01+qbaq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
>> RightHandMan!Snape has been a popular theory before, but it's pretty 
>> nuked by this.  It is interesting to go back and think of things now 
>> with fewer assumptions that Snape and DD are working hand in hand.  
>> Potentially very damaging to a certain appliance, I think.  I like 
>> the idea of Snape being more of a loose canon and DD playing more of 
>> it by ear, though.
> 
> Pippin:
> Nah, it isn't. Everything she said about Dumbledore being too 
> trusting and too detached applies just as well to ESE!Lupin. 

I don't follow your logic, Pippin.  She says explicitly that Dumbledore 
has no confidantes:

"...I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, 
where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those 
things. He's always the one who gives, he's always the one who has the 
insight and has the knowledge."

RHM!Snape has always posited them as practical partners in crime, 
working things out, where Snape always had Dumbledore's ear and was 
told to do lots of things.

Dumbledore being too trusting and too detached could apply to a lot of 
people.  You'll note I refrained from stating what else it could 
support. :)

-Nora cuts the fog with a knife; no Dementors here





From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 16:57:18 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:57:18 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
In-Reply-To: <dbisbt+12r3@...>
Message-ID: <dbjbde+faj0@...>

Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 

Fran wrote:
> Dont buy the patronus was a werewolf. Can you explain why JKR's 
> answer to fact poll question said a person's patronus is unique 
and 
> that is how they can trust it is from a specific person. 

Pip says:
Uh, no I can't. That's an 'ask JKR', because Snape on p. 153 HBP 
says 'And incidentally ...I was interested to see your new 
patronus.... I think you were better off with the old one'. This is 
a pretty solid implication that Tonk's patronus has changed. 

Either this isn't Tonks, or patronuses can change. I'd go for 'they 
can change' myself, because otherwise, everyone in the order would 
have been deeply suspicious. JKR saying 'a person's patronus is 
unique' doesn't mean she hasn't decided an individual person can't 
have two or more that are unique to them. As long as no one changing 
patronus changes to the same patronus as someone else, that 
statement holds.

> Also, where in canon does it say the patronus was a werewolf. The 
> picture to me looks like a horse.
> Fran

 
Pip:
On p. 582 Tonks is insisting to Lupin that she wants to marry him 
and the narration (Harry's pov) goes: 'And the meaning of Tonk's 
patronus ... all suddenly became clear to Harry.'

So in canon, Harry, who has seen Tonk's new patronus, connects it 
with Lupin. The only four legged creature connected with Lupin is a 
werewolf. Hence my saying the patronus was a werewolf.

Pip!Squeak


"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 17:16:57 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:16:57 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbj4e9+natp@...>
Message-ID: <dbjci9+vuun@...>

Potioncat:
> There once was a Master of Potions
> .
> Who followed his vengeful notions.
> .
> He'd sneer and he'd snark
> .
> He'd lurk in the dark,
> .
> Thus, inflaming the readers' emotions.

Amandageist:

And also a headmaster wise

Who let all that meanness disguise

The potion-man's task--

Quite handy, to mask

The truth behind their enterprise.

And 

> .
> The Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview is up. Here's one site:
> 
> 
> http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml
> 
> She answers the question, "Is Snape evil?"  
> 
> Yes she does! She answers the question.

Well. It looks like she does, enough to very much discourage me. But 
remember--we are talking about the woman who has made a second career 
out of not answering questions while she seems to, to the point of 
bemoaning and pointing out when she actually *does.* I think it would 
be very out of character for her to be giving us "Yes"/"No"-value 
answers at this stage--especially if Snape's allegiance is key to 
plot in Book 7.

It still, I think, could go either way.

Earlier interviews--wasn't Snape to redeem himself? "Redeem" is an 
interesting use if it's in spite of his intentions. Hm. Link, anyone 
with more time? 

~Amanda, intrigued





From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 17:21:13 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:21:13 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
In-Reply-To: <dbi8hi+hdnu@...>
Message-ID: <dbjcq9+97g9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pip at e...> wrote:
> (To the tune of the original Doctor Who theme music)
> Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
> Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
> Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space, don't you read
> Spoilery space, spoilery space, spoilery space
> [pause]
> Wah Wah aaaaaaaahhh!
> 
> Pip:
> I presume DD must have known which OWL grades Harry got, and then 
> promptly made sure that the *Potions* master was replaced - with one 
> who accepted 'Exceeds Expectations' students.
> 

This seems unnecessarily convoluted.  Dumbledore could simply have 
told Snape, "You will accept Harry Potter in your NEWT class," or 
maybe "From now on, you will accept students who got an E in potions 
on their OWLS in your NEWT class."  Dumbledore is (or *was* ::sob::) 
the headmaster, and the headmaster runs the school.

--JZC






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 17:26:11 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:26:11 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbjci9+vuun@...>
Message-ID: <dbjd3j+tcsb@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:
> Potioncat:
> > There once was a Master of Potions
> > .
> > Who followed his vengeful notions.
> > .
> > He'd sneer and he'd snark
> > .
> > He'd lurk in the dark,
> > .
> > Thus, inflaming the readers' emotions.
> 
> Amandageist:
> 
> And also a headmaster wise
> 
> Who let all that meanness disguise
> 
> The potion-man's task--
> 
> Quite handy, to mask
> 
> The truth behind their enterprise.
> 
> And 

> It still, I think, could go either way.

Oui!

> Earlier interviews--wasn't Snape to redeem himself? "Redeem" is an 
> interesting use if it's in spite of his intentions. Hm. Link, 
> anyone with more time? 

Heh, no help *here*:

There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't 
because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, 
can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that 
and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all 
I'm going to say.

'Slightly stunned' as in 'oh you guessed it', or 'slightly stunned' 
as in 'not in a million years, baby'.  No clue.

-Nora notes she found that so fast as it's also got the "Who would 
want Snape in love with them" quote so essential to an earlier post





From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 17:34:24 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:34:24 -0000
Subject: OT: Why I shall be silent for a while
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050719025925.009c2310@...>
Message-ID: <dbjdj0+ojd2@...>

Richard, I am so sorry.

Pip





From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 17:46:03 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:46:03 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbjd3j+tcsb@...>
Message-ID: <dbje8r+3p37@...>

Potioncat:
There once was a Master of Potions

Who followed his vengeful notions.

He'd sneer and he'd snark

He'd lurk in the dark,

Thus, inflaming the readers' emotions.
 
Amandageist:
 
And also a headmaster wise
 
Who let all that meanness disguise
 
The potion-man's task--
 
Quite handy, to mask
 
The truth behind their enterprise.


 
Amandageist:
 
> > Earlier interviews--wasn't Snape to redeem himself? "Redeem" is 
an 
> > interesting use if it's in spite of his intentions. Hm. Link, 
> > anyone with more time? 

Nora:
> 
> Heh, no help *here*:
> 
> There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
> 
> JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't 
> because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, 
> can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said 
that 
> and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's 
all 
> I'm going to say.

But she says book *7*. Did she move Dumbledore's death "up" a book? 
We have not yet seen what she's referring to; there's more of the 
pattern to come.

Damn that ingenious woman. What does she say when her kids ask her if 
they can have a cookie?

~Amanda






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 17:50:08 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:50:08 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbje8r+3p37@...>
Message-ID: <dbjegg+3dic@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:
> Potioncat:
> There once was a Master of Potions
> 
> Who followed his vengeful notions.
> 
> He'd sneer and he'd snark
> 
> He'd lurk in the dark,
> 
> Thus, inflaming the readers' emotions.
>  
> Amandageist:
>  
> And also a headmaster wise
>  
> Who let all that meanness disguise
>  
> The potion-man's task--
>  
> Quite handy, to mask
>  
> The truth behind their enterprise.
> 
> Nora:
> > 
> > Heh, no help *here*:
> > 
> > There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
> > 
> > JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I 
can't 
> > because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that 
question, 
> > can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said 
> that 
> > and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's 
> all 
> > I'm going to say.
> 
> But she says book *7*. Did she move Dumbledore's death "up" a book? 
> We have not yet seen what she's referring to; there's more of the 
> pattern to come.

Saying book 7 makes sense, though.  We get The Dastardly Deed in book 
6, but we dunno what to make of it.  Redemption or damnation will 
come in the fallout, in our Book Seven Epic Quest.  She might be 
stunned that we thought of Snape as needing redemption because we've 
guessed (this is, like, 1999 and pre-GoF) that Snape is a former DE 
and has done naughty things, or she might be stunned because we've 
hit upon her ultimate plan for the character, which involves 
murdering the Headmaster.

The sneakiness is strong with this one.

-Nora resists the temptation to put on Parsifal and sing about 
redemption, as someone mentions it ever 30 seconds in the opera





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 17:57:02 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:57:02 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbjd3j+tcsb@...>
Message-ID: <dbjete+c8d7@...>

 
> > Amandageist:
> > 
> > And also a headmaster wise
> > 
> > Who let all that meanness disguise
> > 
> > The potion-man's task--
> > 
> > Quite handy, to mask
> > 
> > The truth behind their enterprise.
> > 
> > And 
> 
> > It still, I think, could go either way.
> 
> Oui!

Potioncat:
Well, I said she answered it. I never said her answer would be to our 
satisfaction. Actually, as I read the book it was so clearly obvious 
that Snape was on DD's side the entire time, that I was afraid that 
was proof he wasn't. So having so many posters reading it so clearly 
the other way is encouragement to me.


Nora: 
> There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
> 
> JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't 
> because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, 
> can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said 
that 
> and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's 
all 
> I'm going to say.
> 
> 'Slightly stunned' as in 'oh you guessed it', or 'slightly stunned' 
> as in 'not in a million years, baby'.  No clue.
> 
> -Nora notes she found that so fast as it's also got the "Who would 
> want Snape in love with them" quote so essential to an earlier post

Potioncat:
As I recall...and I don't always recall... the argument has often 
flowed around whether JKR was answering a question about love or 
responding to the Interviewer's interruption about redemption. I tend 
to think she had stepped back to the original question about love.

KathyW








From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 18:05:14 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:05:14 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbjci9+vuun@...>
Message-ID: <dbjfcq+oona@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
B
E
C
A
U
S
E 
I'M RUNNING OUT OF IDEAS TO FILL THE SPOILER SPACE

> > The Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview is up. Here's one site:
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml
> > 
> > She answers the question, "Is Snape evil?"  
> > 
> > Yes she does! She answers the question.
> 
Amanda writes:
> Well. It looks like she does, enough to very much discourage me. 
But 
> remember--we are talking about the woman who has made a second 
career 
> out of not answering questions while she seems to, to the point of 
> bemoaning and pointing out when she actually *does.* I think it 
would 
> be very out of character for her to be giving us "Yes"/"No"-value 
> answers at this stage--especially if Snape's allegiance is key to 
> plot in Book 7.
> 

Pip replies:

No, she doesn't. It's a JKR special. 'You've read the book, what do 
you think' is not an answer.

And the other comment that some people will cling to 'a desperate 
hope' is not an answer either. A desperate hope is not the same as a 
false hope. Snape lovers of the world most certainly are desperate 
right now {g}, but she's not saying they're definitely wrong to hope.

> It still, I think, could go either way.

Pip:
Agreed. I have said for years, and will probably continue to say 
until Book 7 comes out, that JKR's expression when people started 
saying in TV interviews how much they liked Snape, and thought he 
was a good guy underneath was *not* 'my gawd, how could you think 
that!'. It's more akin to 'my gawd, my plot is flying out the 
window!' 

This could be a cheese cauldron here, but I still think the 
expression was panic, not incredulity.

Book 7 prediction: Harry's series-long hatred of Snape will be 
important. To Harry. And it will need to be dealt with.

Second prediction: we'll discover that 'Spinner's End' is so 
appallingly stilted because JKR was struggling to give almost every 
sentence an alternative reading - once we've finished book seven. 
She's a Christie fan, and that's an old Christie trick.

Alright, so it could go either way. Perhaps Snape is evil. But if 
so, I'll feel conned. Harry's unreasoning and unrelenting habit of 
blaming Snape for everything turns out to be right?

Mind you, good or evil, he's still a slimy git. I've never said 
Snape was *nice*. {g} Even if I did say he was a good actor two 
books back {ebg}

Pip!Squeak

"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape







From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 18:22:15 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:22:15 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbje8r+3p37@...>
Message-ID: <dbjgcn+5ejf@...>

Actually, no spoilers.  Read on, for all the good it'll do you.

Amandageist wrote:

> Damn that ingenious woman. What does she say when her kids ask her 
if 
> they can have a cookie?

She says, 

"Do you really think I'm going to answer that?"

or

"If you read Chamber of Secrets carefully, you'll know the answer.  
And that's all I'm saying."

or 

"That's a very, very good question."

And then they rush her, screaming in frustration, and grab all the 
cookies they want.  Unfortunately, we can't get Book 7 out of her any 
faster than she's willing to give it.

Amy Z C






From triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 18:24:36 2005
From: triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid (Trina)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:24:36 -0000
Subject: HBP: This and that
Message-ID: <dbjgh4+5ori@...>

I'm 
really 
sorry 
we
have
never 
learned
more 
about
Wendelin
the
Wierd...
What
a
shame,
what
a
shame,
what
a shame!

I managed to read HBP in a 24 hour period with a few interruptions (a 
4 hour drive was the biggie)and am now in my 1st re-read.

My immediate thought after finishing it (and mopping up from my 
blubs) was "Dammit!  When are these people actually going to start 
listening to Harry and taking him seriously?" He has repeatedly 
proven himself in the last 5 years (as Dumbledore himself admitted in 
OoP) and they still tend to blow him off.  Yes, he absolutely 
despises Draco Malfoy (at first on principle since he was reminded of 
his cousin Dudders and then on experience) but everything pointed to 
Malfoy, Jr being up to something.  And Harry was the one who got 
Daddy bunged into Azkaban...  Hello, bells should be going off.  

I've also never trusted Snape, despite Dumbledore's repeated 
insistence that he was trustworthy.  However, have you noticed that 
while Albus has stated that he would trust Hagrid with his life, he 
has *never* said that about Snape?  Apropros of what?  Something, I'm 
sure.  I didn't read the scene on the tower as Albus asking for Snape 
to kill him, but I am only in the second reading.  I know he made the 
Unbreakable Vow, which meant he'd die if he broke it.  I thought of 
PoA when Sirius bellowed at Petticrew, "Then you should have died!  
Died rather than betray your friends. As we would have done for you!" 
Because he certainly won't be trusted by anyone in the Order now, 
regardless if he is still "on the side of angels".  He killed Albus 
Dumbledore, quite a blow for the Order and quite a help for Voldy and 
his minions.  I'm also not too fussed with Dumbledore's eyes being 
closed.  He could have shut them when Snape was saying the 
incantation.

I was glad there was more humor this go round. Harry's levitating Ron 
out of bed had me in kinks of laughter.  

Questions:
Why didn't Harry tell anyone (other than Hermione and Ron) that 
Malfoy was going for the Cruciatus curse when he Sectrasempra'd him? 

When did Malfoy get the Hand of Glory?  In CoS he looked at it and 
asked Daddy for it, but it was not purchased at the time.  When was 
it bought and how do HHR know he has it? 

Why is that foul Umbridge woman still at the MoM?  And what 
unmitagated gall it took for her to show up at the funeral! 

I'm sure I'll have other thoughts and questions later...

Trina
   






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 18:44:39 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:44:39 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <17537C43-E599-48AB-87CF-1D24B69CCE3A@...>
Message-ID: <dbjhmn+2up6@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...>
> Kneasy wrote:
R
E
M
I
N
D
M
E
T
O
R
E
R
E
A
D
T
H
E
P
O
L
I
C
Y
A
S
T
O
W
H
E
N
T
H
I
S
C
A
N
S
T
O
P
<snipping Kneasy's lovely post about the cards>

Talisman, thanking Kneasy for the heads-up:

Ah, that's what I was on about in message #2176, when I said:

"Speaking of Lightning-Struck towers, Trelawney seems to have been
having a good tarot reading this time."

Because, of course, Trelawney pulls the Lightning-Struck Tower while 
Harry is talking to her on page 543 (US)--The Chapter: The Seer 
Overheard.  

"Her Bony hand closed suddenly  around Harry's wrist. "Again and 
again, no matter how I lay them out--" And she pulled a card 
dramatically from underneath her shawls.  "--the lightning-struck 
tower," she whispered.  "Calamity. Disaster. Coming nearer all the 
time..." 

It would seem Rowling doesn't want us to worry about which 
particular spreads may have been involved, as no matter how SPT lays 
them out, the tower emerges.  Moreover, in this passage, we could 
say she is using the "one card" spread.  Simple enough.

In Chapter 10 we see Trelawney pull several cards--apparently doing 
a sort of spread on the run.  

"... Professor Trelawney appeared around a corner, muttering to 
herself as she shuffled a pack of dirty-looking playing cards, 
reading them as she walked.

"Two of spades: conflict," she murmured, as she passed the place 
where Harry crouched, hidden.  Seven of spades: an ill omen. Ten of 
spades: violence.  Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly 
troubled, one who dislikes the questioner--" (195)

It seems clear to me that Harry is the Knave of spades (Page of 
Swords).  The meaning of that card may not be relevant, as it seems 
from her commentary that in her spread that card is helping her 
identify a person, here a dark-haired young person who doesn't like 
her.

Nontheless (from the Golden Tarot):

Page of Swords 
A young man holds a sword aloft with the other hand defiantly on his 
hip.

Meaning:
A challenging youth. A passionate young person with deep insight, 
although difficult at times.  Resolution of an outstanding concern. 
Vigilance may be necessary against a current threat.  Use whatever 
intelligence is available.

The other cards she pulls are:

Two of Swords (two of spades):
A balancing act. Sometimes hard choices must be made, and indecision 
will only aggravate the situation. Choose the lesser of two evils, 
and work to minimize the damage that may be done. You have the 
ability to make the best of a bad situation.  This card can also 
mean meeting a worthy adversary who will challenge you.  Friendship 
may result once initial conflicts have been resolved. (Snape<g>)


Seven of Swords (seven of spades): 
Distrust and dishonesty.  Suspicion may be justified. Unreliability, 
theft, and dishonorable actions may be afoot.  Be careful whom you 
trust--although there are also those (Snape <g>) who would be more 
supportive and loyal than you expect. 


Ten of Swords (ten of spades):
Tragedy and loss. Pain and misfortune may strike. Our hopes and 
dreams may fail. Mortality is inescapable...an ending.

http://www.crystalinks.com/tarot.html gives these interpretations:
    
Regarding Swords, generally:

"The Suit of Swords - Spades - Air - Intellect
The realm of astral - represents the action. The focused intent to 
bring forth manifestation. Often times the swords indicate struggles 
as it is difficult to bring an idea into reality. When we see the 
suit of swords in a reading, they point to action and struggle 
before the final outcome." 

And, one of my favorite interpretations of the Hanged Man:

"The Hanged Man represents reversal of view. The significance of 
this card is that everything isn't as it appears to be on the 
surface. The man appears to be hanging but in fact he is in perfect 
control and balanced and centered within himself. He sees all of the 
others with their problems and the error in their ways.  They look 
at him as though he is upside down, when in fact, he has perfect 
vision." 
 (Oh, Snape <veg>)

Yes, Snape is our Hanged Man in OoP.  The ideas of sacrifice, 
control, hidden truth, and willingness to have others think bad of 
you, etc. all fit.

Talisman, Queen of Coins by sign, Empress by number, Snape-ophile in 
every respect, saying: maybe the cooking sherry improves Trelawney's 
vision. : P 

PS: Re: the interview:  She SO does NOT say that Snape is evil. 
(Unlike the response of yore regarding Percy)

PPS
Lightning-Struck Tower, lightning-struck boy.  Nice set.











From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 19:33:15 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:33:15 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbjhmn+2up6@...>
Message-ID: <dbjkhr+l8do@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Talisman, thanking Kneasy for the heads-up:
> 

My pleasure.

> Ah, that's what I was on about in message #2176, when I said:
> 
> "Speaking of Lightning-Struck towers, Trelawney seems to have been
> having a good tarot reading this time."
> 

At the time I wondered what the hell you were on about. For some reason
that bit didn't register in my first read-through, though the chapter of
the same name did. So did the shuffling the spades scene. And it was
wondering  which passage I'd apparently missed that got me to 
concentrate on Tarot connections. Odd the way things turn out.


> 
> It seems clear to me that Harry is the Knave of spades (Page of 
> Swords).  The meaning of that card may not be relevant, as it seems 
> from her commentary that in her spread that card is helping her 
> identify a person, here a dark-haired young person who doesn't like 
> her.
> 

Really?
With all this concentration on love (or many suspect or want it so) it'd
be more likely that he's marked as Page or Knight of Cups - intuition,
emotion, caring - all that sort of stuff. As a matter of fact I was already
musing about a further post entitled 'Harry in his Cups' the sort of horrible
pun/double meaning I savour. Maybe I'd better think again. No problem
there, I'd only got as far as a very rough  outline.

> 
> Yes, Snape is our Hanged Man in OoP.  The ideas of sacrifice, 
> control, hidden truth, and willingness to have others think bad of 
> you, etc. all fit.
>

Could well be.
Must give some thought to maybe matching other characters to cards.
Couuld be entertaining.
As I said, it's been a long time since I last laid out a spread and even then
I usually had ulterior motives. Did I have no shame? Not much, no.

Kneasy
 






From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 19:40:20 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:40:20 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbjfcq+oona@...>
Message-ID: <000701c58c99$b2bd4300$0200a8c0@hwin>

* * * * *

Slogan #437: Don't bust a boiler - just write a spoiler!

Slogan #438: Um ... gee ... uh ... yeah. Maybe it's time to get on with
it? Eh? Here, let me help you turn those pages. 

* * * * *


Pip!squeaked,

> Alright, so it could go either way. Perhaps Snape is evil. But if
> so, I'll feel conned. Harry's unreasoning and unrelenting habit of 
> blaming Snape for everything turns out to be right?

Actually, I think that's the strongest possible argument against
ESE!Snape. Harry needs Snape not to be completely evil so that he can
forgive and be forgiven by Snape. I just think that this comes down to
the kind of things Rowling thinks are important. 

It reminds me of a scene in A Twinkle in Time that Amy (or was it Joy?)
quoted recently, where Meg realizes that the key to defeating the evil
Thingy and freeing her brother, Charles Wallace, is to love her brother.
She would never be able to love the Thingy itself, but Charles Wallace,
yes - even though he has become a pretty horrible being.

It looks like Snape is going to have a Charles Wallace moment in HP7.
Harry is never going to be able to love or forgive Voldemort - Voldie is
simply past that. Even Dumbledore states, explicitly, that he must be
killed. Snape is different, though. He is a human being who has done
wrong but also done right - who can inflict suffering with the worst of
them but can also hurt and suffer as only a true (as opposed to
Voldemoronic) human being can.

Actually, I could even see Snape turning out to be guilty of murdering
Dumbledore - but even then, I think the forgiveness thing will hold
true. 

BUT:

For those who need more textual proof, here's a new one (courtesy of my
neighbor again):

Toward the end of the book Hermione says: 

"I was so stupid, Harry! [....] She covered her face in shame and
continued to talk into her fingers, so that her voice was muffled. "oh,
it's so obvious now, Snape must have Stupefied Flitwick, but we didn't
realize, Harry, we didn't realize, we just let Snape go!"

Good, so Luna and Hermione made the grievious mistake of letting Snape
go. Right?

Weeell. As fortunate would have it, they *couldn't* have made a
grievious mistake. Why not? Just a few pages before, Hermione spells it
out: "Harry, if we hadn't had your Felix potion, I think we'd all have
been killed, but everything seemed to just miss us -"

See? They were so hopped up on Luckyjuice, there was no way they were
going to be able to get it wrong! 

Ergo: Hermione doesn't realize it, but she's wrong. Letting Snape up to
the tower wasn't a mistake. It was exactly what they needed to have
happen.

Eh? (I'll convey your snorts of derision to my neighbor. But I think
she's on the money.)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...." 




From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 19:43:20 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:43:20 -0000
Subject: HBP various responses and thoughts
Message-ID: <dbjl4o+ch64@...>

I love this so much I have to reuse it.  Bravo, Eloise!

There was an old man with a beard
Who said "It is just as I feared
I drank lots of potion
Then swam in the ocean
And now I confess I feel weird."

a
n
d

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s

f
o
l
l
o
w
.
.
.

David wrote:

>Non-Christians (and those Christians who don't want to be preached
>at), too, can probably breathe a sigh of relief.

I'm not sighing yet.  Here we are debating whether Dumbledore might 
have gone willingly to a sacrificial death in order to save the 
wizarding world.  Sounds familiar.  And it's a great story, so I'll 
be happy with it as long as JKR doesn't hew to the Christian version 
too closely or try to slip us any substitutionary atonement.  And she 
has just assured us, "But, obviously, Dumbledore is not Jesus."  
(Time interview, 
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1083935-2,00.html)

Pippin wrote:

>I think the bad fanfic rap is undeserved

Here and there, it falls to the level of fairly *good* fanfic: 
written pretty well but with too much telling and not enough showing, 
I agree with Neri.  There are too many spots that are just clunky.  
For example:

Telling instead of showing:

"Harry did not say anything to this; he still felt angry at the 
reception his confidences had received, but could not see what was to 
be gained by arguing further." (ch. 17; 360 in US ed.)

Adverb abuse: 

"`Yes, sir,' said Harry quickly.  `Voldemort killed his father and 
his grandparents and made it look as though his Uncle Morfin did it.  
Then he want back to Hogwarts and he asked . . . he asked Professor 
Slughorn about Horcruxes,' he mumbled shamefacedly."

Jo, you don't NEED the adverb.  We can TELL he's ashamed.

Awkwardly delivered backstory:

"`?because she was a house-elf,' said Harry.  He had rarely felt more 
in sympathy with the society Hermione had set up, S.P.E.W."

I don't think the romance is fanfic-ish, except maybe for that "for 
your sake, we have to break up" scene.  It's the kind of cliche that 
JKR usually manages to transform.  The rest feels very genuine to me, 
rising out of the characters and what we know about them.  I don't 
even mind the way Harry's attraction for Ginny comes almost out of 
the blue (with a bit of a warning twinge back at the Hogwarts 
Express).  Attraction is like that sometimes?a lot of the time, in 
fact.  And Harry is growing up; instead of going for someone who's 
pretty but whom he barely knows, like Cho, he's suddenly seeing the 
appeal of someone he likes very much but has been beneath the 
romantic radar because of her younger-sister role.  Now, romance 
happens in a lot of ways, and I'd be just as convinced if Harry fell 
in love with Luna, or Hermione, or some character we've never met.  
But by the same token I'm not at all surprised that he should fall in 
love with Ginny (if that's what he's doing).

Sorry, Pippin, and I'm going to have to eat a flock of crows if ESE!
Lupin comes true, but I just don't get this:

>The mystery is the identity of the traitor 

We know the traitor.  His name is Peter Pettigrew and he confessed in 
detail.  

I'd like to say "time will tell," but I get the feeling that if Lupin 
still looks like a good guy at the end of Book 7, you'll use it as 
proof that he's so evil and clever he got away with murder.  :-P

Pip wrote:

>As to the book - do you think there are charms that can be set on
> something, so that it's given to a particular person?

Sure there are.  When we wonder how Snape (or Dumbledore, or whoever) 
could have guaranteed that Harry get that book, we're thinking like 
Muggles.  This is magic, and it would be easy.  We don't know the 
charm for it, but JKR could make one up in the blink of an eye and it 
would fit into what we know about the WW very nicely.

I'm still not sure what the point would be.  The whole HBP subplot 
feels like something that hasn't delivered yet.  I hope it bears 
fruit in 7.  Or maybe JKR thought "who is the HBP?" would be such an 
absorbing mystery that the revelation that it was Snape would be all 
the delivering she needed to do.  Hm.  Maybe I'll set up a poll to 
ask how many people honestly thought it was Snape before the 
chapter "Flight of the Prince" came along.  I bet it was a very 
sizable percentage.  (I notice under 4% of HPfGUers hazarded that 
guess in the poll before the book came out.  Good work, y'all!)

Pippin wrote:

>Okay, there are not one but three things in that paragraph
>that don't fit with AK. The trickle of blood, the closed eyes,
>and the peaceful expression. 

I don't buy the peaceful expression (could be because unlike the 
other victims of AK we've seen, Dumbledore wanted to die and knew it 
was coming) or the blood (because of heretofore argued point that a 
just-deceased body will bleed under tremendous impact), but I like 
the thing about the closed eyes.  While perfectly explainable, it 
does reek of clueness.

And I agree that if the AK didn't work, it's because Snape didn't 
want it to.  After that, the mechanics are unknown but easily 
explained by someone who knows more about magic than we do, namely 
JKR.  Maybe if someone sincerely agrees ahead of time to be struck by 
AK, it can't kill him.  Or maybe they put a countercharm in place 
beforehand.  Or maybe everyone is Confunded and didn't see what they 
thought they saw.

I agree with Mike, though, that Dumbledore has to be dead because of 
JKR's views on death.  She has been very selective and skillful with 
how she's used the "not really dead" plots (Pettigrew, Crouch Jr.), 
and she hasn't killed someone we care about and brought him/her 
back.  Those plots almost always reward wishful thinking, and JKR has 
a low opinion of it.  Live in dreams and you forget to live in 
reality?we learned that in book 1, and via the acid test, the most 
painful of losses: a child's loss of both parents.

OTOH, there is that Draught of Living Death.  It's just gotta be used 
at some point.  I'd prefer if it were used for someone we hoped was 
dead and turned out not to be.

Now Mike is swaying me on the question of whether we've seen the one 
and only twist regarding Tonks.  A double twist is in JKR's 
character, but to solve a minor mystery at the end of a book and then 
reopen it with the next one . . . the timing doesn't seem right.  And 
yet there are those loose ends.  What to do, what to do.

Pippin wrote:

>I think Dumbledore withheld the proof of Snape's
>repentance because it *was* proof. It would leave
>absolutely no doubt in Harry's mind -- or
>Voldemort's-- that Snape was faithful.
>As Harry is no Occlumens and never will be, that
>would be very bad news for Snape.

You're so right.  But he has to let Harry & the Order know the proof 
somehow, sooner or later, or Snape's life isn't worth a burnt 
bowtruckle.  At the very least, if Snape's killed by someone in the 
Order, we have to find out afterwards that he was innocent.  So there 
has to be proof somewhere, and we can continue to have fun wondering 
what it is.

Dungrollin wrote in response to Entropy:

>If DD dies in any way other than being killed by either Draco or 
Snape, Snape will have broken
>his vow, and will die. 

I don't think so.  Say Draco fails and as Snape is striding toward 
Dumbledore to finish him off, AD is run over by a truck.  Snape 
dies?  I think he's satisfied the spirit of the vow.  Likewise if 
someone else gets in there and kills AD first.

I just had to help Entropy out, in gratitude for the biggest laugh 
I've had all week.  Just the words ESE!Flitwick bring out the 
giggles.  Neatly argued theory, though.

Dungrollin also wrote:

>Interesting question though: if you tarnish your soul
altruistically, for the ultimate greater good of finally vanquishing
Voldy forever, does it count?

Hm.  I think it does, but that Dumbledore's death wouldn't count if 
it were truly what Dumbledore required Snape to do.  Of course it is 
still an evil (if only because Dumbledore isn't the only victim?
everyone who cares about him suffers too), but much of the evil is 
erased by the fact that the primary victim is willing.

Other things raise this issue more.  I'm thinking of Donnie Brasco, 
the movie about an FBI agent who infiltrates the Mafia.  More and 
more, to keep his cover, he participates in their crimes.  What has 
Snape done to stay undercover?  I bet Voldemort has tested him by 
requiring him to perform acts of cruelty.  Has he turned in Order 
members?  Killed anyone?  Tortured anyone?  How much can he do before 
the good ceases to outweigh the evil?

As for tarnishing one's soul, I don't know about heaven and brownie 
points, but I do imagine it would be very hard to live with oneself 
after such things?even if everyone assured you they were justified, 
indeed necessary.

Penny wrote re: Hermione:

>Oh yeah. Her character had to be completely altered beyond 
recognition. More
on that ........ some other time.

Come on, Penny, sock it to us.  You really think Hermione was 
unrecognizable?  She wasn't 

-a perfectionistic student
-psychologically astute (especially about other people's love lives)
-very balanced about her own matters of love (though able to get very 
pissed-off when slighted)
-insistent to the point of being annoying when she thinks someone's 
being illogical, even if it's Harry (you go girl)
-fond of making fun of Ron's crushes
-friends with Ginny and sympathetic to her concerns (dislike of 
Phlegm, troubles with Dean, attraction to Harry) 
-utterly committed to the side of the Order
-apt to run to the library to resolve any question 
-apt to push people to do what they've promised (Harry's Slughorn 
problem)
-and?sorry?uninterested in Harry romantically?  

In all those ways, she looked like the same old Hermione to me, 
though she's getting more mature.  In what ways do you see her acting 
out of character?

Pip wrote:

> On p. 582 [624 in the US edition?AZC note] Tonks is insisting to 
Lupin that she wants to marry him 
> and the narration (Harry's pov) goes: 'And the meaning of Tonk's 
> patronus ... all suddenly became clear to Harry.'

It's a good guess that her Patronus is now a werewolf, but the jury's 
still out.  After all, the sentence continues "the meaning of Tonks's 
Patronus and her mouse-colored hair. . ."  This doesn't mean she's in 
love with someone whose Patronus is a mouse.  It means she's in love, 
she's unhappy, and she's not herself.  The specific form her Patronus 
therefore takes is not necessarily relevant.

Mary Grandpre is being positively Rowlingesque with the ambiguity of 
the drawing, and there's a tidiness to its being a werewolf, but my 
feminist soul rebels.  Pining away for love is one thing, but having 
the very representation of your soul take the form of your rejecting 
lover?  Come on, Tonks, get yer backbone back.


Kneasy, great catch about the Tarot and the lightning-struck tower.  
I doubt we will find a regular correspondence to the Tarot running 
through the entire series in any detail (except insofar as the Tarot 
is so rich in archetypal symbolism, and so vague, that one can align 
it with almost anything), but this one is either deliberate on JKR's 
part or a very nifty coincidence.

Jo (mooseming) wrote:

>Can you *do* anything with Sectumsempra? Any ideas on the linguistic
origins of this particular incantation.

See my post #2114.  "Sempra" means "always," as in "Semper fidelis," 
("Always faithful," the US Marines' motto), "Sic semper tyrannis" 
("Thus always to tyrants," Booth's words upon assassinating Lincoln), 
and of course, "Rictusempra," which makes the victim laugh 
uncontrollably.

Rita wrote:

>*Why does my memory make that quote 'red hair, no money, and more
>children than they can afford'? Is it movie contamination?

*pats Rita reassuringly*  The movie line is more like "red hair, hand-
me-down robes?-you must be a Weasley."  You're not suffering from 
movie contamination, just plain ordinary memory failure.  It happens 
to us all.

A few things I'm really loving as I reflect and reread:

-The meeting of Dumbledore and the Dursleys.  "`Albus Dumbledore,' 
said Dumbledore, when Uncle Vernon failed to effect an 
introduction.  `We have corresponded, of course.'  Harry thought this 
an odd way of reminding Aunt Petunia that he had once sent her an 
exploding letter, but Aunt Petunia did not challenge the term."  Now 
that's the voice we're used to.

-The spoof of bureaucracy's response to terrorism.  "The Wizarding 
community is currently under threat from an organization calling 
itself the Death Eaters."  You don't say.
  
-The fact that the DADA job is truly jinxed?no one's lasted more than 
a year in 40 years!  Hilarious.  And I think it means that someone 
who really deserves it is going to get the job when Voldemort is dead 
and the curse is broken.  I plump for Harry, though it could be 
Redeemed!Snape if he lives.

-The minor characters and their little quirks.  McLaggen as the team 
member who's always trying to run the team.  Slughorn (I said this on 
HPfGU) as a great example of how one can have true Slytherin 
characteristics and be more of an annoyance than a danger.  He is as 
ambitious as the next person, but in him it takes the form of social 
climbing and namedropping.  Scrimgeour carrying on the Ministry's 
incompetence but in a different, just as believable way as Fudge's.

-Her abandonment of those stupid phonetic names.  Kreacher, Umbridge, 
Grimmauld Place?-OP was full of the things.  OTOH, she fluffed a 
great opportunity when it came to naming Horcruxes.  And Fenrir 
Greyback . . . OK, the only explanation at this point is that 
werewolves are required to take a "werewolf name" after they're 
bitten.  It makes it rather difficult for them to keep it secret, 
though, doesn't it?  Wouldn't you think a few Hogwarts parents would 
have noticed that their kids' favorite teacher had one of those great 
big flag-waving werewolf names?
	I really wanted to help Pippin out by theorizing that 
Greyback and Lupin are the same person.  I had it all worked out?
"they're never seen together!" but then I saw that they are.  Or 
nearly together.  I'm sure it's nothing Pippin couldn't explain 
away.  There you go, P, it's a gift from me.

Amy Z C

---------------------------------------------------------
"It is a long time since my last visit," said Dumbledore, 
peering down his crooked nose and Uncle Vernon.  "I must 
say, your agapanthus are flourishing."





From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 20:19:18 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:19:18 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbiqmh+bqmg@...>
Message-ID: <dbjn86+qjff@...>

Fran:

> Forgot to ask you what a regular Hanged Man represents since there 
is 
> a reference to one in the book as well. In Fred and Georges joke 
> shop......


Someone's probably said this already--sorry, I can't read *all* of 
these at work--but as another poster described, the hanged man hangs 
by one foot.

Very like the curse that Snape invented, that hangs you by one ankle, 
eh? The one that was written in his old spell book. That James used on 
him in his memory. That Harry tried to use on him in HBP. That Snape 
identifies as his own work, specifically, for good measure.

Yep yep yep.

~Amanda





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 20:21:36 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:21:36 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
In-Reply-To: <dbjbde+faj0@...>
Message-ID: <dbjncg+7q4g@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pip at e...> wrote:
> Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
> Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
> Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
> Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
> Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
> Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
> Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
> Spoiler Spiller Stiller Shiller 
> 
> Fran wrote:
> > Dont buy the patronus was a werewolf. Can you explain why JKR's 
> > answer to fact poll question said a person's patronus is unique 
> and 
> > that is how they can trust it is from a specific person. 
> 
> Pip says:
> Uh, no I can't. That's an 'ask JKR', because Snape on p. 153 HBP 
> says 'And incidentally ...I was interested to see your new 
> patronus.... I think you were better off with the old one'. This is 
> a pretty solid implication that Tonk's patronus has changed. 
> 
> Either this isn't Tonks, or patronuses can change. I'd go for 'they 
> can change' myself, because otherwise, everyone in the order would 
> have been deeply suspicious. JKR saying 'a person's patronus is 
> unique' doesn't mean she hasn't decided an individual person can't 
> have two or more that are unique to them. As long as no one 
changing 
> patronus changes to the same patronus as someone else, that 
> statement holds.
> 
> > Also, where in canon does it say the patronus was a werewolf. The 
> > picture to me looks like a horse.
> > Fran
> 
>  
> Pip:
> On p. 582 Tonks is insisting to Lupin that she wants to marry him 
> and the narration (Harry's pov) goes: 'And the meaning of Tonk's 
> patronus ... all suddenly became clear to Harry.'
> 
> So in canon, Harry, who has seen Tonk's new patronus, connects it 
> with Lupin. The only four legged creature connected with Lupin is a 
> werewolf. Hence my saying the patronus was a werewolf.
> 
> Pip!Squeak
> 
> 
> "Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
> known how to act?" - Severus Snape

You certainly made several good points! Still not thoroughly 
convinced and I dont have an argument really to back it up.  
However,I tooks Snapes comment to mean that he knew it was Polyjuiced!
Tonks and not the real one.  If her patronus kept changing how would 
the receiver know she sent the message.
Fran







From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 20:25:31 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:25:31 -0000
Subject: Hanged Man!! Re: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbjhmn+2up6@...>
Message-ID: <dbjnjr+k814@...>

> R
> E
> M
> I
> N
> D
> M
> E
> T
> O
> R
> E
> R
> E
> A
> D
> T
> H
> E
> P
> O
> L
> I
> C
> Y
> A
> S
> T
> O
> W
> H
> E
> N
> T
> H
> I
> S
> C
> A
> N
> S
> T
> O
> P


> Talisman, thanking Kneasy for the heads-up:
> 
> And, one of my favorite interpretations of the Hanged Man:
> 
> "The Hanged Man represents reversal of view. The significance of 
> this card is that everything isn't as it appears to be on the 
> surface. The man appears to be hanging but in fact he is in perfect 
> control and balanced and centered within himself. He sees all of 
the 
> others with their problems and the error in their ways.  They look 
> at him as though he is upside down, when in fact, he has perfect 
> vision." 
>  (Oh, Snape <veg>)
> 
> Yes, Snape is our Hanged Man in OoP.  The ideas of sacrifice, 
> control, hidden truth, and willingness to have others think bad of 
> you, etc. all fit.

I said this just a minute ago, but I had another thought: is anyone 
else (of the characters we know) clearly identified as the 
author/inventor of a spell? The "hanged man" spell, that dangles you 
by one foot that way, is identified by him, as his own work.

I remember noticing what seemed a subtle emphasis that this spell 
gets you by *one ankle.* With the rest of the hanged man's 
interpretation--what a perfect fit.

~Amanda






From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 20:26:11 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbjn86+qjff@...>
Message-ID: <20050719202612.67964.qmail@...>



--- Amanda Geist <editor at ...> wrote:

> Fran:
> 
> > Forgot to ask you what a regular Hanged Man represents since there 
> is 
> > a reference to one in the book as well. In Fred and Georges joke 
> > shop......

No comment on what the hanged man represents (I caught that one as well), but did anyone who has
ever played hang man, have the same reaction I did to that?  Ie, "OMG, that is *sick*"?

Catherine

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 20:33:55 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:33:55 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbjn86+qjff@...>
Message-ID: <dbjo3j+it6l@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:
> Fran:
> 
> > Forgot to ask you what a regular Hanged Man represents since 
there 
> is 
> > a reference to one in the book as well. In Fred and Georges joke 
> > shop......
> 
> 
> Someone's probably said this already--sorry, I can't read *all* of 
> these at work--but as another poster described, the hanged man 
hangs 
> by one foot.
> 
> Very like the curse that Snape invented, that hangs you by one 
ankle, 
> eh? The one that was written in his old spell book. That James used 
on 
> him in his memory. That Harry tried to use on him in HBP. That 
Snape 
> identifies as his own work, specifically, for good measure.
> 
> Yep yep yep.
> 
> ~Amanda

I looked up the hanged man on the web and found this:

A man hanging by one foot from a Tau cross - sometimes from a bar or 
tree. His free leg is always bent to form a "4," his face is always 
peaceful, never suffering.

I liked the four! Four Houses, four remaining horcrockys.....
Fran





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 20:50:32 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:50:32 -0000
Subject: HBP various responses and thoughts
In-Reply-To: <dbjl4o+ch64@...>
Message-ID: <dbjp2o+f8eu@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> I love this so much I have to reuse it.  Bravo, Eloise!
> 
 There was an old man with a beard
Who said "It is just as I feared
 I drank lots of potion
Then swam in the ocean
And now I confess I feel weird."

Amy complained of clunkiness.

Pippin:
I think this is JKR making it easy for her younger readers and non-
obsessive fans. We may not appreciate those adverbs, and references 
to the backstory we could recite in our sleep, but I think they do. I
would have, as  a youngster. It's like the reason kids like to watch
cartoons; all the emotions are telegraphed larger than life, you 
don't have to deduce them from the context. The style is deliberately
pulpy -- and she couldn't get away with half the plot twists if it
wasn't.

Amy:
> Sorry, Pippin, and I'm going to have to eat a flock of crows if ESE!
> Lupin comes true, but I just don't get this:
> 
> >The mystery is the identity of the traitor 
> 
> We know the traitor.  His name is Peter Pettigrew and he confessed
in  detail.  


PIppin:

No, he didn't. The more you read his confession the more gaps
and suspicious areas it has. He mouths like he's been hit with a 
silencing spell  at one point, (and now we know there's nonverbal, 
wandless magic), no one ever explains why he needed to kill all 
those Muggles, no one ever explains *how* he did it -- if Voldemort 
knew a spell that would kill everyone within twenty feet of himself,
don't you think he'd use it to perpetrate a few  mass Muggle killings 
now he's back? 

Instead he's got to resort to blowing up bridges and setting giants 
loose --In the words of the immortal Nero Wolfe, pfui!

The one point where Peter sounds sincere is where he takes
credit for putting Sirius in Azkaban, I'll grant you, but that's
because he thinks *Sirius* is the traitor. After all, if Peter didn't 
out himself as secret-keeper, the logical person to suspect would be 
Sirius himself. Read it again, and see how Peter's manner changes when
Harry finally says he believes Sirius. If Peter were truly the spy,
thiswouldn't change anything for him, he should go right along
with his poor, innocent me act...after all he's kept it up for
a year of spying, why change? Harry hasn't got a shred of proof.

But that's  the point when it all becomes
clear to Peter -- Lupin is the DE, and he'll kill them all if Peter
doesn't play along. Notice that Peter never begs mercy from Lupin.
He knows what he's dealing with.

Just to repeat my position, because Jo deliberately blurrs things,
there are three separate crimes of which Peter stands accused:
a year of espionage against the Order, revealing the Secret to 
Voldemort, and blowing up twelve Muggles. I maintain he is
guilty only of the second, under duress, after he was outed by
Lupin, and that the Muggles were killed unintentionally in a gas
explosion triggered by a missed AK.

We don't really know who held the wand that killed Cedric.
Jo said it was Wormtail, but more than one person can use an
alias.

Amy:
> 
> I'd like to say "time will tell," but I get the feeling that if
Lupin  still looks like a good guy at the end of Book 7, you'll use 
it as  proof that he's so evil and clever he got away with murder. 
:-P

Pippin:
Nope. The theory includes a full-blown confession -- but if it 
happens I fully expect some of his fans to be saying he was confunded
or protecting somebody else. <g>

Pippin





From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 21:08:45 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:08:45 -0000
Subject: HBP various responses and thoughts/DADA job
In-Reply-To: <dbjl4o+ch64@...>
Message-ID: <dbjq4t+p4sa@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
 
> a
> n
> d
> 
> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> s
> 
> f
> o
> l
> l
> o
> w
> .
> .
> .
>   
> -The fact that the DADA job is truly jinxed?no one's lasted more 
than a year in 40 years!  Hilarious.  > 

Carolyn:
But that's not quite true, is it? Quirrell seems to have had the job 
before Harry starts at Hogwarts, making the year he taught Harry his 
second year, minimum. 

Hagrid says in PS/SS:
'Oh yeah. Poor bloke. Brilliant mind. He was fine while he was 
studyin' outta books but then he took a year off ter get some first-
hand experience...
- never been the same since. Scared of the students, scared of his 
own subject -'

You could argue this means he took a year off before taking up the 
DADA position perhaps, but in which case, how does Hagrid know 
Quirrell is scared of his students, since this conversation takes 
place before the start of term?

I suppose having Voldy stuck to the back of his head all year counts 
as the jinx taking effect.







From melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 21:15:10 2005
From: melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid (melclaros)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:15:10 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbjkhr+l8do@...>
Message-ID: <dbjqgu+le6h@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 

> Must give some thought to maybe matching other characters to cards.
> Couuld be entertaining.
> As I said, it's been a long time since I last laid out a spread and
even then
> I usually had ulterior motives. Did I have no shame? Not much, no.


The shuffling of spades is what got me started on this line of
thoughts too. Trelawny may have finally stumbled onto a legitmate
talent here at last.

Assigning characters to the cards might be fun, but probably not as
much fun as ascribing the chapters of Harry's Tale to the Fool's Journey
http://www.learntarot.com/journey.htm





From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 21:19:09 2005
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:19:09 -0000
Subject: HBP interview
In-Reply-To: <dbjgcn+5ejf@...>
Message-ID: <dbjqod+thsi@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> Actually, no spoilers.  Read on, for all the good it'll do you.
> 
> Amandageist wrote:
> 
> > Damn that ingenious woman. What does she say when her kids ask her 
> if 
> > they can have a cookie?
> 
> She says, 
> 
> "Do you really think I'm going to answer that?"
> 
> or
> 
> "If you read Chamber of Secrets carefully, you'll know the answer.  
> And that's all I'm saying."
> 
> or 
> 
> "That's a very, very good question."

"Besides, it's called a biscuit."





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 21:19:33 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:19:33 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP various responses and thoughts/DADA job
In-Reply-To: <dbjq4t+p4sa@...>
References: <dbjl4o+ch64@...> <dbjq4t+p4sa@...>
Message-ID: <a63632460507191419f2c9196@...>

On 7/19/05, carolynwhite2 <carolynwhite2 at ...> wrote:
> 
> 
>  --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> 
> > a
> > n
> > d
> > 
> > s
> > p
> > o
> > i
> > l
> > e
> > r
> > s
> > 
> > f
> > o
> > l
> > l
> > o
> > w
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > 
> > -The fact that the DADA job is truly jinxed?no one's lasted more 
> than a year in 40 years! Hilarious. > 
> 
> Carolyn:
> But that's not quite true, is it? Quirrell seems to have had the job 
> before Harry starts at Hogwarts, making the year he taught Harry his 
> second year, minimum. 
> 
> Hagrid says in PS/SS:
> 'Oh yeah. Poor bloke. Brilliant mind. He was fine while he was 
> studyin' outta books but then he took a year off ter get some first-
> hand experience...
> - never been the same since. Scared of the students, scared of his 
> own subject -'
> 
> You could argue this means he took a year off before taking up the 
> DADA position perhaps, but in which case, how does Hagrid know 
> Quirrell is scared of his students, since this conversation takes 
> place before the start of term?
> 
> I suppose having Voldy stuck to the back of his head all year counts 
> as the jinx taking effect.
> 
> 
> 
Or perhaps he taught for a year, took a year off to get some "first-hand 
experience," and returned to his post afterward as Voldy!Quirrel.

-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 21:27:31 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:27:31 -0000
Subject: And another Hanged Man! Re: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbjnjr+k814@...>
Message-ID: <dbjr83+465g@...>

<spoilage space>

milk forgotten in the back of the fridge

cheese left on the counter too long

Veruca Salt

bruised fruit

shoes left out in the rain

Dudley Dursley

undercooked meat

</spoilage space>

Hanged Man here, Hanged Man there . . . And what is the name of the 
village pub in Little Hangleton?  Ahem?

The plot thickens.  Fifty points to your House if you can tie the pub 
reference in with Snape.

Amy Z C





From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 21:31:25 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:31:25 -0000
Subject: thoughts on Snape and those horseducks
In-Reply-To: <dbive0+ktfh@...>
Message-ID: <dbjrfd+b8f2@...>

Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 
Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 
Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 
Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 
Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 
Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 
Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 
Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 
Nitwit, oddment, blubber, tweak 

Ginger:
> 3 thoughts here:
> 
> 1) Snape remembers a small boy crying and a man with a hooked nose 
> yelling at a cowering woman.  > 
> Hmm.  Wouldn't Harry have specified if the man with the hooked nose 
> were wearing Muggle clothes?  Toby Snape, as a Muggle wouldn't be 
> wearing Wizard clothes.  Maybe Eileen is being yelled at by her 
> father.  <snip>
> Thoughts?

Very similar to yours. I agree; I wondered the same thing myself.
Of course, with the stuff about how depression can suppress your 
magical abilities, I guess it could be Papa Snape, but yes, the 
clothing is potentially an issue. OTOh it could have been 
conveniently overlooked. ;-)

> 
> 2)  Herm says that the handwriting looks like a girl's.  The book 
is 
> 50 years old.  Maybe Eileen wrote the potion stuff in it, which is 
> why they don't recognize the handwriting.  Perhaps Snape added in 
the 
> spells and to whom the book belongs.  They could have very similar 
> handwriting, which, since it is small and cramped makes it hard to 
> distinguish.  My dad and I have very similar handwriting, which is 
> why we both print.  No one can read it.

In conversation with someone earlier today, I was speculating 
something similar. That the Book was not originally Eileen's but 
Lily's (the book isn't 50 years old, that's the publication date - 
presumably everyone else's books will have the same date). That's why 
Slughorn compare's Harry's ability to hers, not to Snape's whose 
style he ought to have recognised. But again, they're his *spells*. 
Suggsting some kind of connection between Snape and Lily is virtually 
canonical these days (much as I've always fought against it). The 
inscription was written by Lily when she gave it to him - the Half-
Blood Prince was her nickname for him. I really can't see him being 
proud enough of his status to use it as a title, but as a teasing 
description of one who regarded his half-blood as superior to her own 
comletely Muggle heritage, it would be appropriate, as would writing 
it at the bottom of the inside back cover. And it would be so JKR to 
mislead us like that by having him say 'the HBP is me and those are 
my spells' - nothing about the Potions.

BTW, where's the reference to Snape's cramped handwriting? I'm blowed 
if I can remember. Given that these are additional notes in a text 
book, however, the handwriting would be *bound* to be cramped.

> 
> 3)  If LV discovers that some of his horcruxes are destroyed (he 
> certainly knows about the diary-he gave LM hell for it) what is to 
> stop him from making more?  He is a pretty accomplished murderer.  
> All he'd have to do is pop into 98-year-old Muggle Mildred 
Peabody's 
> apartment, AK her (poor gal, high cholesterol), nick her toenail 
> clippers, make a horcrux and POOF!  He's got a new horcrux and a 
new 
> set of toenail clippers to boot.  Not bad for a day's work.  And no 
> one would know.  

Except that his soul is already divided into seven. I doubt you could 
go on dividing down that remaining seventh into smaller and smaller 
pieces without causing damage.


~Eloise





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 21:39:28 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:39:28 -0000
Subject: HBP various responses and thoughts
In-Reply-To: <dbjp2o+f8eu@...>
Message-ID: <dbjrug+10pv7@...>

Pippin:

> I think this is JKR making it easy for her younger readers and non-
> obsessive fans. We may not appreciate those adverbs, and references 
> to the backstory we could recite in our sleep, but I think they do. 
I
> would have, as  a youngster. It's like the reason kids like to watch
> cartoons; all the emotions are telegraphed larger than life, you 
> don't have to deduce them from the context. The style is 
deliberately
> pulpy -- and she couldn't get away with half the plot twists if it
> wasn't.

I can see why she might choose it, but I still don't like it.  There 
are a hundred writers understood and loved by children who write more 
subtly.  

> PIppin:
> 
> No, he didn't. The more you read his confession the more gaps
> and suspicious areas it has. He mouths like he's been hit with a 
> silencing spell  at one point, (and now we know there's nonverbal, 
> wandless magic), no one ever explains why he needed to kill all 
> those Muggles

He didn't.  He just needed to create a big enough explosion that it 
would be plausible that there was no body, and enough chaos that no 
one would notice a running rat.  Or wolf, as the case may be.

> no one ever explains *how* he did it -- if Voldemort 
> knew a spell that would kill everyone within twenty feet of himself,
> don't you think he'd use it to perpetrate a few  mass Muggle 
killings 
> now he's back? 
> 
> Instead he's got to resort to blowing up bridges and setting giants 
> loose --In the words of the immortal Nero Wolfe, pfui!

The Dark Lord has many weapons.  But how does anything you're saying 
suggest that a different person is the ESE one?  *Someone* knows how 
to blow a big crater in the street.  People used to think it was 
Sirius, and maybe he was capable of it.  Or it could be Peter, could 
be Voldemort, could be Lupin, could be all three, could be every 
witch or wizard who's ever passed her/his Charms NEWT.

I wrote:

> > 
> > I'd like to say "time will tell," but I get the feeling that if
> Lupin  still looks like a good guy at the end of Book 7, you'll use 
> it as  proof that he's so evil and clever he got away with murder. 
> :-P
> 
> Pippin:
> Nope. The theory includes a full-blown confession -- but if it 
> happens I fully expect some of his fans to be saying he was 
confunded
> or protecting somebody else. <g>

LOL!  OK, folks, this is a binding magical contract (since it appears 
on TOC, after all):  If Lupin confesses to being ESE I will 
personally grovel onlist to Pippin.  After the mourning period is 
over, of course.

Amy Z C





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 22:33:00 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:33:00 -0000
Subject: And another Hanged Man! Re: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbjr83+465g@...>
Message-ID: <dbjv2s+bj0i@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
S
P
A
C
E
T
H
E
F
I
N
A
L
F
R
O
N
T
I
E
R

> 
> Hanged Man here, Hanged Man there . . . And what is the name of the 
> village pub in Little Hangleton?  Ahem?
> 
> The plot thickens.  Fifty points to your House if you can tie the pub 
> reference in with Snape.
> 

This is starting to get intriguing.

I had a thunk - it looks as if the relics from the Founders 'match' the suits
of the minor arcana. Well, according to some (not all - there're different
interpretation systems out there) the areas of influence that each suit 
supposedly refers to roughly match the supposed characcter attributes of
the four relevant Houses. Difficult to be certain, there's a fair amount of 
vagueness, and as stated different folks emphasise the influences differently. 

Coincidence? Perhaps. At the moment I'd lay odds 6:4 that it's not - that's
a 60% chance that it's not coincidental that there's some Tarot stuff in there
and that it's intentional. But would you put your shirt on a 60% chance?
I wouldn't. Need to find more connections/references before the theory can 
be considered to have heft. 

It'd be a damn sight easier chasing it down if there weren't so much other
stuff flooding into our frontal lobes and engaging our attention. 
Am I complaining?
Er .... no. It's a relief having fresh canon to pore over. 
But just now I need two brains.

Kneasy








From heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 22:50:02 2005
From: heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:50:02 -0400
Subject: Am I the only one...
In-Reply-To: <20050719202612.67964.qmail@...>
References: <20050719202612.67964.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <1121813408.1C80D86B@...>

...going thru Really Old HPFGU posts to remember what lots of us said a 
Long Time Ago?

And as I said on my livejournal (heidi8) yesterday, I wish Haggridd were 
here, and not just because I think I won our bet....


Heidi



From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 22:59:03 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:59:03 -0000
Subject: Am I the only one...
In-Reply-To: <1121813408.1C80D86B@...>
Message-ID: <dbk0jn+jj0e@...>

Heidi

... is going thru Really Old HPFGU posts to remember what lots of us 
said a Long Time Ago.


And Amanda would LOVE to be doing that and has no time. So do let me 
know if I made any good points (or even sense, come to that), eh?

~A






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 23:01:14 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:01:14 -0000
Subject: Peter again was Re: HBP various responses and thoughts
In-Reply-To: <dbjrug+10pv7@...>
Message-ID: <dbk0nq+dgs4@...>

Pippin:
> > no one ever explains *how* he did it -- if Voldemort 
> > knew a spell that would kill everyone within twenty feet of
himself, don't you think he'd use it to perpetrate a few  mass 
Muggle  killings  now he's back? 
> > 
> > Instead he's got to resort to blowing up bridges and setting 
giants  loose --In the words of the immortal Nero Wolfe, pfui!

Amy: 
> The Dark Lord has many weapons.  But how does anything you're 
saying  suggest that a different person is the ESE one?  *Someone* 
knows how  to blow a big crater in the street.  People used to think
it was  Sirius, and maybe he was capable of it.  Or it could be
Peter, 
could  be Voldemort, could be Lupin, could be all three, could be 
every  witch or wizard who's ever passed her/his Charms NEWT.

Pippin:
No it couldn't. Harry's amazed that anyone could kill thirteen people
with one curse. And he's a third year by that time.
It wasn't ordinary, even for the WW. Even the killing curse only
takes people out one at a time.


The Muggles thought it was a gas explosion, and I'm
pretty sure they were right, but one that was touched off by a failed
AK. Pettigrew wouldn't want to AK himself, and how could he set off
an explosion spell and not be caught by the blast? Unless he 
transformed just *before* it went off -- but then he couldn't have 
caused it,  could he.

Amy:
> LOL!  OK, folks, this is a binding magical contract (since it
appears  on TOC, after all):  If Lupin confesses to being ESE I will 
 personally grovel onlist to Pippin.  After the mourning period is 
over, of course.

Pippin:
Awww -- and if he doesn't, I will grovel to you.

Pippin





From kcawte at slytherinspirit.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 23:03:34 2005
From: kcawte at slytherinspirit.yahoo.invalid (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:03:34 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Am I the only one...
In-Reply-To: <dbk0jn+jj0e@...>
References: <dbk0jn+jj0e@...>
Message-ID: <42DD86C6.8000704@...>



Amanda Geist wrote:

>Heidi
>
>... is going thru Really Old HPFGU posts to remember what lots of us 
>said a Long Time Ago.
>
>
>And Amanda would LOVE to be doing that and has no time. So do let me 
>know if I made any good points (or even sense, come to that), eh?
>
>~A
>
>
>
>
>  
>
Oh yeah me too. I'm fairly certain I predicted Albus' demise but so did 
the world and his dog - let me know if I said anything else which I can 
now claim as a stroke of genius. I've jst given up and gone no mail on 
HPfGUs. Too much mail, I *know* I wasn't this snowed under with OoP.

K



From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 23:06:26 2005
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (Constance Vigilance)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:06:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: thoughts on Snape and those horseducks
In-Reply-To: <dbjrfd+b8f2@...>
Message-ID: <20050719230626.89395.qmail@...>



eloise_herisson <eloiseherisson at ...> wrote:

Except that his soul is already divided into seven. I doubt you could 
go on dividing down that remaining seventh into smaller and smaller 
pieces without causing damage.


~Eloise



Problem - CoS shows us that bits of soul in horcruxes can gain strength on their own. The bit in the diary was well on it's way to becoming sentient by sucking Ginny's strength. The bit that was Voldy was also gaining strength by sucking Quirrell, animals and Bertha Jorkins. We've witnessed two horcruxes and both were gaining strength. It would seem likely that the bits in the horcruxes could all be gaining strength and could clone themselves off as well. Gee. This is as ugly as Time Turners.

 

CV


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 23:11:25 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:11:25 -0000
Subject: Am I the only one...
In-Reply-To: <42DD86C6.8000704@...>
Message-ID: <dbk1at+drpu@...>

Good a spoiler space as any...

> Amanda Geist wrote:
> 
> >Heidi
> >
> >... is going thru Really Old HPFGU posts to remember what lots of 
us 
> >said a Long Time Ago.
> >
> >
> >And Amanda would LOVE to be doing that and has no time. So do let 
me 
> >know if I made any good points (or even sense, come to that), eh?
> >
> >~A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> Oh yeah me too. I'm fairly certain I predicted Albus' demise but so 
did 
> the world and his dog - let me know if I said anything else which I 
can 
> now claim as a stroke of genius. 


I need to go look up my post "Amanda Binns Explains it All," which is 
where I had Snape killing Dumbledore. But the details of the scenario 
aren't precise, I don't think.

~Amanda






From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 19 23:29:46 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:29:46 -0000
Subject: Found it--wow--Amanda Binns Explained It All (47077, HPfGU)
Message-ID: <dbk2da+oqja@...>

I found it. And I didn't excerpt it. Because I think I want to 
revisit all of it, including the Love As a Spell Component part. The 
best part is at the end. I'm impressed with my husband, too. He was 
thinking very clearly, way back when.

It was 47077 on HPfGU, from November 2002.

Amandageist drifted down from the ceiling and made a quick pass of 
the room, swooping through everyone and giving them the cold chills. 
She cleared her throat with a small sound like chalk snapping.

"I," she announced, "have had a Thought. More accurately, I had a 
blinding insight where several people's thoughts came together. I was 
browsing over on the main list, since nobody seems to want to talk to 
me here, and I read something that Jodel said:

<< And I agree with Pip that the test of Snape bringing him
Dumbledore's head on a platter is one very strong possibility. (I
remember posting something very like it on the AOL board (IIRC) a
year or so ago.) And, what's more, I can see Dumbledore agreeing to
it. Particularly if there is a chance of buying his side some major
magical protective advantage by his willing sacrifice. >>

"You may all know," the Geist continued, "that in another plane of 
existence I am married to my own dead-sexy version of a Inscrutable 
Dark-Haired Man. Some months ago he had his own original thought, 
which I reproduce for you here."

She waved a hand and a large, floating screen appeared. It had 
several holes burned in it. "Ah, yes," Amandageist said. "Sorry about 
that. Sometimes my irritation with those blinking and pop-up ads 
overcomes me...and the quote is rather long, sorry."

Several people, having some experience with the Geist's lectures, 
began edging to the exits. She regally ignored them. Words took shape 
on the screen:

Message 39315, Love as a Spell Component:

My beloved, Jan, is a long ponderer and came to me today with a Harry 
Potter thought (as he calls them). He has braided several threads 
together and presented me with several novel takes on things, which I 
will now proceed to share.

There has been general dissatisfaction with the idea that Lily's 
dying for Harry was what saved him from Voldemort. Plenty of people 
must have flung themselves in front of others in Voldemort's long 
career as a Bad Wizard; why should this one time be special or 
different?

We are told the Potters knew Voldemort was after them. Jan suggests 
that the Potters did more than hide. He suggested that Dumbledore 
worked with Lily, who was very good at charms, far in advance to set 
a spell on Harry that would be activated in a worst-case scenario 
when there was no other way to protect him. A shield or protection 
that required Lily to do what she did, integrating her love into the 
rest of the spell and completing it.

I mentioned the thread of Stoned!Harry and all the alchemical 
symbolism to him, and he said this fits, as Lily's love was 
transmuted into a protection. The achievement of the Stone is via 
transmutation, and the process of achieving it is intended not to get 
a Stone, but to transmute the alchemist himself to a higher state of 
being. It is a process of self-perfection, not a way to obtain gold 
or live forever, which is presumably why all the many would-be's who 
tried it for the latter goals all failed. But I digress.

This thought of Jan's nicely reduced the aggravation factor of Lily's
Sacrifice, as it added the extra edge I thought must be required. I 
mentioned to Jan that the (accurate) distinction had been made that 
Lily's love was not, after all, identified as what kept off 
Voldemort, but as what kept off *Quirrell.* Nor have I understood why 
Voldemort's spell *rebounded,* rather than just not working. Jan's 
theory also adds reason for Lily to refuse to move aside; in addition 
to mother love, she was willingly providing the key element to the 
last-line and strongest parts of Harry's protection. We already know 
Dumbledore has set up other parts (the ancient magic that protects 
him at the Dursleys, and probably more). Dumbledore is a very 
powerful wizard, and was very involved with the Potters, which is why
we figured he helped Lily work this out.

Okay. That was good. I was happy. But Jan continued. Flamel. Flamel 
was to set his affairs in order and then he would die. Ah, but here 
we are talking about the achiever of the Stone, the one who has 
achieved the higher state of being. Here is one who is also dying 
willingly for a noble cause. Has his love or purity of purpose, I 
wonder, been transmuted into any other type of protective spell? A 
very good thought by Jan.

And now here comes Cindy with this ludicrous disloyalty idea about 
Snape. But the reason she gives--that Dumbledore has to die, and 
being betrayed is the only way--hmmm. Dumbledore has to die, eh? 
Yeah, I agree, he probably will. But if Jan is right, and there is a 
charm or spell that can transmute a willing and loving death into a 
powerful protection, I can see another way Dumbledore could exit. A 
very likely way.
----------------------------

"Okay," the Geist continued, making another chilly pass through 
everyone to wake them up, "here's two parts, then:

"1. A willing death can be a part of an extremely powerful spell.
"2. We already thought Dumbledore was likely to die, simply for
character-development reasons; Jan offers a reason--for the 
furtherance of defenses, achievable in no other way.

"Oh, hush," she said, hearing the mutinous, impatient murmurs. "Of 
*course* this has to do with Snape. But Snape as he is an very 
involved thread in the whole series. *Do* keep your pants on. Or 
thongs. Whatever....Read this."

The floating scroll cleared, and new words formed:

Message 41341, A New Thought! A New Thought! Several!:

Jan has again done the impossible, thought of something I have not 
seen discussed on the list. I'm impressed.

He thinks that part of the closeness between Snape and Dumbledore is 
that Dumbledore himself is skilled with potions. I asked him where he 
got that. He referred me back to the description on the wizard card:

"Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard
Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's 
blood and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel." (p. 
77, PS)

Jan points out that those last two, researching the uses of dragon's 
blood and alchemy, both would seem to have a very strong potions 
element. He says that any Potions master under Dumbledore would have 
to be very good, indeed, because two of the things Dumbledore is 
famous for are potions-related. I think he has, as usual, made a 
great observation.

So, thoughts? Alchemy does involve great amounts of intricate mixing 
and blending and simmering, and not a lot of foolish wand-waving (to 
our knowledge). I'm betting that analysis of dragon's blood did, too. 
Do we think Dumbledore is no slouch when it comes to potions, and 
they share a professional interest? And has this interesting thought 
sparked any other random connections in anyone?

Jan also mentions that the card obliquely introduces another angle:
professors do another thing besides teach. They do research. He 
thinks Snape may be a research professor, perhaps working on 
something with Dumbledore. This ties a bit into his "love as a spell 
component" theory I put out earlier. Snape's teaching style is not 
the best, we pretty much all agree on that--but what if teaching is 
not the primary reason he is at Hogwarts at all? What if he's working 
on some project?

And my related thought--what if Lily's sacrifice, as a component of 
Harry's protection, was a product of such research by Snape? Jan's 
thought was that Harry's protection, the reason he survived, was not 
simply that Lily died for him, but that her willing sacrifice was the 
final element of a spell that created the strong protection. What if 
Snape, having access to the wizard likely to throw that spell, and 
access to Dumbledore, was instrumental in crafting that spell?

The other willing death we have seen, or that was strongly intimated, 
is Flamel's himself. And what if a willing sacrifice *can* be 
incorporated into a strong protective spell, and what if Dumbledore 
and Snape *are* working on that.....? And what if Snape's task is to 
seem to betray Dumbledore, whose own willing death will be a 
component in Voldemort's defeat?
------------------------------

Amandageist gazed out over the sea of glazed eyes. "OKAY," she said 
loudly, as the screen blanked and then showed a variety of Graphic 
Visual Aids, "Here we have all we need to support the 'Dumbledore's 
Head On a Platter' theory, because it gels with all the following:

"(1) Snape returned to Voldemort (likely).

"(2) Voldemort set him a task to prove himself (likely).

"(3) The task will be something that will be hard for Snape (or it 
wouldn't be proof) and good for Voldemort (probably). Ergo, Snape 
won't be sent after Sirius Black or Karkaroff. Killing? Hardly a 
challenge, in Voldemort's eyes. Killing an enemy? Candy. And neither 
Black nor Karkaroff are strategic targets for Voldemort. But killing 
Dumbledore? Proof *and* the removal of Voldemort's greatest obstacle. 
Likely.

"(4) Snape, in canon, is a character whose every move and word is 
subject to varying interpretations. Valid motives, varying by 180 
degrees, can be ascribed to him. Therefore, any task he must do 
*must* be something that is wildly misinterpretable. Most 
importantly, misinterpretable by Harry, such that Harry's belief 
leads him to do things which actually obstruct the ultimate objective 
(of which he is unaware), and such that a Bang that is heard across 
the planes will be heard when the truth is revealed.

Look at this through the Harry-filter, which is how we will see it in 
the books:
Harry has seen Dumbledore thwart Snape's desires many times. He has 
seen Dumbledore apparently enjoying a truly upset Snape. He has seen 
Snape smirk and give a very ambiguous response to Draco's suggestion 
that he should be headmaster. He "knows" that Snape wants the DADA 
position and that Dumbledore does not give it to him. This could 
easily, in Harry's mind, be assembled into a pattern of cause, 
motive, for Snape to finally turn on Dumbledore. For Harry already 
seriously doubts Dumbledore's wisdom in trusting Snape, now that he 
knows Snape was a Death Eater."

Amandageist looked away from the diagrams and arrows on the screen, 
and noted the glint in the eyes of the BloodthirstyHappyToKill!
Snapetheorists. She arched an eyebrow. She must clarify this at once.

"Let me state for the record, that *my* take on Snape does not 
include him being homicidal for pleasure. I think he is entirely 
capable of killing, when there is a very good reason for it. But I 
don't think he will actually kill Dumbledore himself, unless it is 
some scenario that Dumbledore stages where Snape does so without 
meaning to (and we all know how Dumbledore loves moving the pieces 
around, so I'd have to put this in the 'likely' column)." The 
watchers could see, through the Geist's head, the visual aids on the
screen adjusting themselves as she spoke.

"I believe that, however Dumbledore dies, both Harry and Voldemort 
will *believe* that Snape is responsible. Snape will foster this 
belief in Voldemort; it will be an unfortunate conclusion drawn by 
Harry (who for whatever reason--Dumbledore's general lack of any 
desire to explain anything, a misunderstood conversation, a missed 
message, etc.--will not know or will refuse to believe that Snape did 
not do it).

"At this point, Snape and Dumbledore will have accomplished two key 
things:
--Snape will have proven himself to Voldemort and will be reinstated 
with full DE honors or whatever, in the inner circle. Even if he 
wasn't in the Inner inner circle before, I think he will be now, 
because (a) Voldemort's followers have diminshed somewhat and (b) 
Snape now has a very useful position.
--The spell, whatever it is, to which Dumbledore's death is integral, 
will have been completed (or nearly so).

"These are key because Snape will now be in a *superb* position to 
implement or otherwise set in motion or effect, the spell. Having a
tremendous spell ready is of no use at all, if the spell cannot be 
cast or implemented due to lack of access. Access is of no use 
without a weapon. Snape will have both the access and the means."

Amandageist waved the screen away. The sighs of relief that filled 
the room blew her across the room; she glared at the assembly as she 
returned to hovering just over the bar. A book materialized where the 
screen had been and flipped open; a section of type enlarged itself. 
Everyone read

'To one as young as you, I'm sure it seems incredible, but to Nicolas 
and Perenelle, it really is like going to bed after a very, *very* 
long day. After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the 
next great adventure.' (PS, p. 215)

"See?" Amandageist asked. "It's right there in the first book. 
Dumbledore does not fear death. And in canon, he has already accepted 
a willing death (two actually, both Flamels) to achieve a greater 
good. Further, if the Pensieve shows nothing else, it does show that 
Dumbledore has a well-organized mind. [And quite possibly the 
Pensieve can be left to another after he dies; although it may go 
dark and empty if its source is gone.]

"I know, I know," the Geist sighed. "This is Major, you want more 
Bangs. Okay, here.

"Harry, given his age and past, will be unable to accept Dumbledore's 
death as anything but tragedy--a further detriment to his 
interpretation of Snape's role, and an opening for Bangs when he 
finds out the truth and/or struggles to accept it. Harry will be 
forced to the point where Snape was, in the Shrieking Shack--given 
the opportunity to recognize that an object of hatred had been 
misunderstood and was, in actuality, as much a victim as
himself. Snape rejected Lupin as another to whom Dumbledore's second 
chance meant the world; it didn't even seem to register. Will Harry 
fail where Snape did, or will Harry be able to get around his own 
hatred for Snape and accept the truth? Bang.

"And Snape himself. He is also very young, and to quote Jan one last 
time, 'has a past with a capital P.' While he will be old enough to 
accept what Dumbledore is doing/has made him do, on an *intellectual* 
level, he will be having massive problems of his own on the 
*emotional* level. He's already pretty unsteady there as it is. 
Snape's own difficulties with what transpires will further confuse 
things--he has his own reactions to deal with on top of everything 
else. I think that Dumbledore's death will devastate Snape, for I 
believe that to Snape as to Lupin, Dumbledore's trust has meant 
everything. Leaving room for a loud Bang when Snape *must* deal
with all this."

Amandageist glanced over at Cindy, to see if all this Banging pleased 
her, and was irked to see her head down on the bar beside her drink, 
gently snoring.

The Geist clapped her hands and the book disappeared as well. She 
glanced down at the bar. "It'd be nice, it would, to be able to drink 
after all that," she sighed. "Oh, well. I'll be available for 
questions if anyone needs me; in the meantime, I'll be making myself 
useful."

She zoomed up to the ceiling and busied herself filling balloons with 
garlic water to drop on the Vampire!Snapetheorists.

~Amanda











From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 00:25:25 2005
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Charme)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:25:25 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: SPOILERS: First Read Rant
Message-ID: <01ef01c58cc1$86efdad0$6701a8c0@...>

Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space
Spoiler Space

>Pip:
> On p. 582 Tonks is insisting to Lupin that she wants to marry him
> and the narration (Harry's pov) goes: 'And the meaning of Tonk's
> patronus ... all suddenly became clear to Harry.'
>
> So in canon, Harry, who has seen Tonk's new patronus, connects it
> with Lupin. The only four legged creature connected with Lupin is a
> werewolf. Hence my saying the patronus was a werewolf.

Charme:

(Edit - I deleted my first post. I inadvertently thought I'd added the 
spoiler space, and when I checked, I was horrified that I had a brain fart 
and didn't!  I'm sorry!!!!!)

Just a thought..perhaps the patronus is not a werewolf, but a wolf (as in
the animal.)  This could explain the confusion Harry had when seeing it had
4 legs and the possibility of Sirius' death affecting her.

Charme







From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 02:59:13 2005
From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:59:13 -0000
Subject: Handwriting - Spoilers (WAS: Re: thoughts on Snape and those horseducks)
In-Reply-To: <dbjrfd+b8f2@...>
Message-ID: <dbkem1+u82t@...>

IT'S TOO LATE FOR ME TO BE CREATIVE IT'S TOO LATE FOR ME TO BE 
CREATIVE IT'S TOO LATE FOR ME TO BE CREATIVE IT'S TOO LATE FOR ME TO 
BE CREATIVE  IT'S TOO LATE FOR ME TO BE CREATIVE 

Eloise:

<<BTW, where's the reference to Snape's cramped handwriting? I'm 
blowed if I can remember.>> 

OotP, Ch. 28 (when Harry views "Snape's Worst Memory" in the 
pensieve): "His [Snape's] hand was flying across the parchment; he 
had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbors, and yet 
his writing was minuscule and cramped."

I picked up the reference to "cramped" at once; between that and the 
fact that it was a *potions* book, I concluded Snape was the HBP from 
the very first description of the book.  Lupin's suggestion that 
Harry check the date of publication was an attempt at misdirection, I 
think - since it was 50 years ago, and Riddle's diary in CoS was 50 
years old, presumably this was an attempt to get us to think the HBP 
was Voldemort.  But since JKR had already come out and said that the 
HBP wasn't Voldemort, it was rather easy to spot the misdirection :)

Interestingly, Snape never used a textbook in class - he always wrote 
the recipes on the blackboard.  This makes me wonder whether or not 
he wrote his "improved" version of the potionmaking method.  It seems 
as if Harry is perfectly able to make a good potion when given the 
correct methodology (as well as losing the emotional overhead).

~Phyllis





From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 05:11:26 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:11:26 -0000
Subject: Those dam Hordevours!
Message-ID: <dbkmdu+aapo@...>





T
  H
    E
     O
       R
        Y
          !

T
  H
    E
     O
       R
        Y
          !

T
  H
    E
     O
       R
        Y
          !

S
 P
  O
   I
    L
     E
      R 
       ! 
 S
  P 
   O
    I
     L
      E
       R 
         ! 
 S
  P
   O
    I
     L
      E
       R 
         ! 



Not much time, with life being at its most wicked
trust me, I just 
had to post (only thing keeping me sane at the moment) about the 
possible Horcrux's that are left. 

I know that I am not the only person on here that does not like to be 
spoon-fed information of what the remaining Horcrux's may be. That 
being a given (VHO), we must exhaust all possibilities according to 
the warped mind of a young Tom Riddle to that of the recreated Lord 
Voldemort before Godric's Hollow.  With what item would he most 
likely have had any respect that he felt secure in placing part of 
his soul there? Dumbledore, I think, gave us a hint when he told 
Harry that it would not be an obvious item like a tin can or whatever 
(sorry no time to look it up).  On the other hand it must be an item 
that Voldemort would have seen as exemplary of his status. 

I cant take credit for this one, my seventeen year-old daughter, Tina 
(who by the way is too busy to finish the book yet) came up with
what 
I feel is fantastic and very doable; Riddle's special-services-to-the-
school-award. 
My daughter gave many reasonable explanations why this would be 
almost obvious but her best and most convincing argument is that 
Riddle used items that did not belong to him but he took some pride 
in. Riddle did not deserve to be honored by a school award for the 
fake capture of Hagrid killing Moaning Myrtle. As she stated, "this 
award was ironic, being as he was the very person who created the 
disaster that the award represented".  What significance that award 
must have held for Riddle; especially when he had nowhere to go if 
the school would have closed. 

Ok
if that isn't enough she went on to tell me a timeline of how and 
what items were possibly the first to be chosen for his experiment. 
(How she ties this in is phenomenal to me
I think I may at times be 
too attached to see) 

You need to kill to split the soul. One killing for each split of the 
soul. Tom killed his father and grandparents; that would be three 
killings and three possible Horcrux's. In Slughorn's get together in 
the Pencieve where Tom asks him about Horcrux's, Tom already has the 
Slytherin ring on his hand which Harry is clear to notice that he had 
already done the dirty deed. We know that the ring was a Horcrux 
(that's one killing of the three he murdered) the diary (that's two) 
so what better than the special-award-to-the-school to be the third? 
To go back to what specifically he asked in the Pencieve of Slughorn 
was (paraphrasing) could you split the soul more than once. Very 
significant indeed I would think. Tom already knew about the 
Horcrux's to ask a question about them but then expounded on his 
original question to include how many times could you possibly split 
a soul. 

I really liked this a lot so I thought I would put it out there. I 
also, thinking abstractly, had my own theory of where the Last piece 
of his soul would be encased. I think that it would ultimately be the 
last showdown scene. Well, some time ago I mentioned that it would be 
a place that needed assistance from a certain underground map; 
Gringotts.  The only persons to attempt and succeed in obtaining 
something from the vaults there were Voldemort and his unwilling 
capture. Where better to keep something so valuable. Every place, so 
far as we know, has been extremely hard to impenetrate: the cave, the 
school and Gringotts if I am right. 

Another thing about Gringotts in my original (no time to look it up, 
sorry) was that Harry and Hagrid went over a ravine that had a Lake 
under it. 

Lots more thoughts on this I'm sure
but gotta go!

Thanks for reading

Snow

By the way, I think DD got that ring from Kreacher when he was sent 
to Hogwarts and was detected carrying dark items.  










From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 05:59:46 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:59:46 -0000
Subject: Those dam Hordevours!
In-Reply-To: <dbkni3+321r@...>
Message-ID: <dbkp8i+40vo@...>


> T
>   H
>     E
>      O
>        R
>         Y
>           !
> 
> T
>   H
>     E
>      O
>        R
>         Y
>           !
> 
> T
>   H
>     E
>      O
>        R
>         Y
>          !
> 
> S
>  P
>   O
>    I
>     L
>      E
>       R 
>        ! 
>  S
>   P 
>    O
>     I
>      L
>       E
>        R 
>         ! 
>  S
>   P
>    O
>     I
>      L
>       E
>        R 
?	  !


Reply and/or correction to own post, how sorry.

Please excuse my byline in previous post, wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!


Also an ad to
is that Voldemort only did the killing Himself when he 
needed a Horcrux to be created.  Think Dorcas Meadows (The Woes Of 
Mrs. Weasley, OOP) and now apparently Amelia Bones (HBP). Is LV now 
starting over? In the graveyard LV said that he would be satisfied 
for now with a new body and would wait to seek immortality again 
(paraphrase again, sorry). 

Snow

Feeling regrettable about that last byline now that I thought about 
it. Told you times are tough right now. 






From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 11:07:12 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:07:12 -0000
Subject: delayed reactions
Message-ID: <dblb90+4n33@...>

H
o
w
m
u
c
h
l
o
n
g
e
r
?

I had a few "Wait a minunte!" moments while reading the book, and a 
few, "But this isn't what we expected!" moments as well.

The first was on the Hogwarts Express. Zabini mentions Nott to Draco, 
and it's very clear that Nott is neither with the Slytherins or 
invited to Slugfest's party. I was feeling quite smug that I'd 
correctly identified the Good Slytherin long ago and we'd be seeing 
more of the noble young man.....Where the heck was he? Was he the 
fourth Slytherin in Potions? And does it even matter? 

Of course the Hat's talk of uniting the Houses all came to nothing 
with Ron's comment "Oh, the usual stuff about house unity." We were 
all worked up about it for nothing, it seems.

Then Snape was the DADA teacher, which I correctly deduced as soon as 
DD hired Sluggy....I knew that by the set up that he wasn't being 
hired for DADA. But didn't we all want Snape as DADA because it would 
create all sorts of fun scenes with the members of the DA club in the 
same class? Wasn't that going to be fun to watch? Well, wasn't it?

Oh, and if Sluggo could be a chair, I guess Sirius Black could be a 
potted plant.

Half way through I suddenly realised, without ever having wondered 
about it: Ginny isn't a Prefect!! Even with the comment that Draco 
wasn't performing Prefect Duties, Ginny never came to mind. And, btw, 
did that mean Draco wasn't a Prefect this year, or he wasn't 
bothering to do the work?

I was a little surprised to see that Crabbe and Goyle were getting 
detention. My take was that it was to hamper Draco in his attempts to 
murder DD. Also that he successfully got around it by polyjuicing the 
two. And I think that's why we didn't see snarky Snape so much...he 
was distracted trying to keep Draco out of trouble.

You know all those times that Snape just shows up (in all the books) 
just in time to break up a Draco-Harry duel? In the early days I 
thought he was really protecting Harry from Draco. Then I decided he 
was protecting Draco from Harry. Now I'm wondering if he was looking 
out for both boys? I cannot quite figure out why DD is offering 
protection to the entire Malfoy family....not a nice bunch, you know?

Remember in Hagrids's hut when DD announces that help is always 
available at Hogwarts to those who ask for it? It seemed he was 
talking to Harry, but I wonder if he was talking to Lucius as well.
(CoS)

And one last thought. We know to perform the Unforgivables you have 
to *want* to do it, and the wanting makes the curse stronger. Does 
that apply to all Dark Magic? Because I wonder if Harry's curse on 
Draco caused such a horrible result because of how badly he wanted to 
hurt him? 

Kathy W
Potioncat









From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 12:26:43 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:26:43 -0000
Subject: delayed reactions
In-Reply-To: <dblb90+4n33@...>
Message-ID: <dblfu3+kqju@...>

How many rhymes are there for spoiler?
Especially when Hogwarts has no boiler. 
For Moby Dick we could still use oiler,
But here we have to fall back on toiler.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

Kathy W wrote: 
> You know all those times that Snape just shows up (in all the 
books) 
> just in time to break up a Draco-Harry duel? In the early days I 
> thought he was really protecting Harry from Draco. Then I decided 
he 
> was protecting Draco from Harry. Now I'm wondering if he was 
looking 
> out for both boys? I cannot quite figure out why DD is offering 
> protection to the entire Malfoy family....not a nice bunch, you 
know?
> 

It might be because of Narcissa and Draco, especially if it turns 
out RAB was Regulus Black. That would make two of the Black clan 
repentant. So Draco's family history would suggest redeemability.

The point I wondered was whether Narcissa and Snape were once more 
than 'just good friends'. Draco has been clearly described as 
looking just like Lucius, so that isn't it, but Narcissa appears to 
be in the select bunch who know Snape well enough to call him 
Severus. And she can ask him to take the Unbreakable Vow, as well...

Given the Black purity thing, she couldn't marry a half-blood 
without being chucked out of the clan, but having once been in love 
with his mother might explain Snape's apparent fondness for Draco.

 There's an acronym in there somewhere, but I'm not good on those. 
:-)

 
Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape





From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 12:31:56 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:31:56 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - Is it on the cards?
In-Reply-To: <dbjkhr+l8do@...>
Message-ID: <dblg7s+j10d@...>

Kneasy:
> Must give some thought to maybe matching other characters to cards.
> Couuld be entertaining.


Luna, anyone? 


~Eloise





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 12:35:56 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:35:56 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
Message-ID: <dblgfc+b2k9@...>

Which calendar year is HBP set in?
'94? '95?, '96?
Can someone remind me please.

Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.

Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.

Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.

Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.


It's that Advanced Potion-Making thing:

"It was nearly fifty years old. Neither his father, nor his father's
friends, had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago."

But Tom was there in the mid-40's, and Tom was a brilliant student.
I haven't heard anyone say the same of Sevvy, have you?

We've been told that Voldy isn't the HBP. Has is actually been spelled
out that Tom isn't either? 'Cos unless it has Jo might be doing a Dobby.

If it did belong to Tom and Sevvy 'inherited' or otherwise acquired it
during his time at Hogwarts, what would be the significance?
Oh, while I'm here, does anyone know of a description of Snape's
handwriting that is his for sure?

Kneasy







From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 12:50:02 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:50:02 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
In-Reply-To: <dblgfc+b2k9@...>
Message-ID: <dblh9q+ajvc@...>

Careless Kneasy asked,

> Which calendar year is HBP set in?
> '94? '95?, '96?
> Can someone remind me please.

Oh Kneasy, that's what the Lexicon's for. 1996-97. Does it matter?

> 
> Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
> I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.
> 
> Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
> I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.
> 
> Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
> I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.
> 
> Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
> I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.

Hee, I just noticed you disapparate! So did I on my last, but I don't 
think it's really a spoiler. Is it?

> It's that Advanced Potion-Making thing:
> 
> "It was nearly fifty years old. Neither his father, nor his father's
> friends, had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago."
> 
> But Tom was there in the mid-40's, and Tom was a brilliant student.
> I haven't heard anyone say the same of Sevvy, have you?

No. Hence my speculations about Lily.
But that was the *publication date*. Now granted we don't know that 
the others weren't using textbooks with further edition dates, but 
you can't say how old a particular copy of a book is by its 
publication date, particularly a standard text.

> 
> We've been told that Voldy isn't the HBP. Has is actually been 
spelled
> out that Tom isn't either? 'Cos unless it has Jo might be doing a 
Dobby.

I'm pretty sure that she covered that one, but I could be wrong.

> 
> If it did belong to Tom and Sevvy 'inherited' or otherwise acquired 
it
> during his time at Hogwarts, what would be the significance?
> Oh, while I'm here, does anyone know of a description of Snape's
> handwriting that is his for sure?

I asked that and Phyllis answered above. It's described as cramped on 
his exam paper in OoP. Though it *could* just be one of her 
adjectives, used to emphasise just how much he'd written on the exam 
paper whilst you'd expect book annotations to be rather cramped. But 
I think I'm clutching at straws over the writing, to be honest. I 
still reckon there's a Lily connection there somewhere.

Of course we've seen Tom's handwriting and *that* wasn't described as 
cramped AFAIR (I've unfortunately mislaid my COS).


~Eloise





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 13:09:04 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:09:04 -0000
Subject: Peter again was Re: HBP various responses and thoughts
In-Reply-To: <dbk0nq+dgs4@...>
Message-ID: <dblidg+n0em@...>

Pippin:

> No it couldn't. Harry's amazed that anyone could kill thirteen people
> with one curse. And he's a third year by that time.
> It wasn't ordinary, even for the WW. Even the killing curse only
> takes people out one at a time.

Sorry, still don't see why that points to Lupin, or anyone else 
besides Peter.  Surely you don't believe that canard about Peter being 
a poor wizard?  It's a classic setup!

;-)
Amy





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 13:22:46 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:22:46 -0000
Subject: HOH- Gryffindor
Message-ID: <dblj76+3dd9@...>

Spoiler space.

They're dead.

They're all dead.

There will be no book 7.

It's just us Muggles now. 

Bwaaaaaaaaaaahahaha.

Ok, read the book if you don't believe me.


Just wondering.  If MM is the new headmistress (and she does have the 
credentials), who will be the head of Gryffindor?  There is no 
teacher in canon stated as a Gryff, and to the best of my memory, the 
only living one still teaching that JKR has mentioned in an interview 
is Hagrid.

I loved it when MM told him that DD values his opinions, and she did 
too.  How touching.

Hooch strikes me as Gryffindorian.  Thoughts?

What is a cookie?  
I know biscuits are cookies, but what are cookies?  
Are they biscuits?  And for that matter, what are biscuits?
No, I mean what are US biscuits?  
Has JKR spent so much time at her computer that she has deleted all 
her cookies?  I'm deleting a bag of Lays right now.  

I'm also verging on madness trying to keep up with 3 lists.
Ginger, off to another list





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 13:42:54 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:42:54 -0000
Subject: HBP various responses and thoughts
In-Reply-To: <dbjrug+10pv7@...>
Message-ID: <dblkcu+5cej@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:

> I can see why she might choose it, but I still don't like it. 
There  are a hundred writers understood and loved by children who 
write more  subtly.  

Pippin:
Yeah, but they can't use the pulpy style to charlie-horse the plot.
I think one of the reasons Jo sometimes sounds like she'd like
to leave the Potterverse behind is that she's stuck with the clunky
style as long as she stays there. If she got all refined, she'd never
be able to get away with things like the shift in narrative PoV that
let her disguise the connection between Hermione's collision with
Quirrell and the broomstick hex.

Anyway I think you're all familiar with my theory that Jo uses clunky
writing to disguise major plot twists. I think she's done it again.
In all Snape's blather to Bella, ticking off plot points in such a 
dull uncompelling fashion, what he *doesn't* say is that he was a
double agent in VWI. The tale as Snape tells it is that he defected to
Dumbledore on Voldemort's orders, convinced DD that he'd quit the 
Death Eaters absolutely  (though Dumbledore never quite trusted him 
enough to  give him the DADA post) and   remained faithfully at
Hogwarts gathering info on Dumbly ever since. Nothing at all about 
sending information the other way, not until Dumbledore sent
him back after the return.

The implication is that Voldie believes that Dumbledore lied to the
Wizengamot, claiming that Snape was his spy when he wasn't,  in 
order  to protect Snape. Now that's a wrinkle we never came up with, 
isn't it? Of course it's possible that Dumbledore *did* lie to them;
just because a wizard doesn't  tell lies doesn't mean he *can't*
but if he didn't ...well!

Also a surprise, I think, is the excuse Snape offered for not letting
Quirrell kill Harry -- that the DE's thought Harry might be a great 
dark wizard. 

At last we understand the shrewd calculating look Snape gives when
he hears Harry  speaking  parseltongue in Book Two. He's letting that
look be seen in order to bolster the rumours about Harry which he 
needs for his cover story. (I don't think he could possibly believe
that Harry was a dark wizard if he knew how the Stone had been 
saved.)

Incidentally, it also makes sense of why Draco thought Harry might
want to be friends with him at first.

Pippin





From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 13:43:43 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:43:43 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
In-Reply-To: <dblh9q+ajvc@...>
Message-ID: <dblkef+5o0t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson" 
<eloiseherisson at a...> wrote:
> Careless Kneasy asked,
> 
> > Which calendar year is HBP set in?
> > '94? '95?, '96?
> > Can someone remind me please.
> 
> Oh Kneasy, that's what the Lexicon's for. 1996-97. Does it matter?
> 
> > 
> > Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
> > I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.
> > 
> > Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
> > I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.
> > 
> > Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
> > I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.
> > 
> > Getting careless - had to delete this and re-post.
> > I'd forgotten the spoiler spaces. Apologies.

Kneasy:
> > It's that Advanced Potion-Making thing:
> > 
> > "It was nearly fifty years old. Neither his father, nor his 
father's friends, had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago."
> > 
> > But Tom was there in the mid-40's, and Tom was a brilliant 
student.  I haven't heard anyone say the same of Sevvy, have you?

Dungrollin:
HBP, Chapter 15 The Unbreakable Vow, pp 298-9 (UK ed) 
"But I don't think I've ever known such a natural at Potions!" said 
Slughorn, regarding Harry with a fond, if blood-shot, 
eye. "Instinctive, you know - like his mother! I've only ever taught 
a few with this kind of ability, I can tell you that, Sybill - why, 
even Severus -" 

And then a few paragraphs later:

"Well, then it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should 
have seeen what he [Harry] gave me, fist lesson, the Draught of 
Living Death - never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, 
I don't think even you, Severus -"

No, not even Severus, not on a first attempt. But the notes in that 
book were notes he presumably made over the course of his sixth and 
seventh years for his NEWTs. Even Hermione has never made up her own 
spell before, while Snape had done at least two before his OWLs, 
*and* one of them was non-verbal.  

Kneasy:
> > We've been told that Voldy isn't the HBP. Has is actually been 
> spelled out that Tom isn't either? 'Cos unless it has Jo might be 
doing a Dobby.

Dungrollin:
'Fraid she did, it's somewhere on the website in the FAQs.
Ah. Here:
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=57

(hoping the link links)






From timregan at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 13:45:24 2005
From: timregan at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:45:24 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP - spoilers - that textbook
Message-ID: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02169F0B@...>

Hi All,

Kneasy posited:
>>> We've been told that Voldy isn't the HBP. Has is actually been
spelled out that Tom isn't either? 'Cos unless it has Jo might be doing
a Dobby. <<<

I thought that too (back in June 2004):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103304

But no, ESE!JKR put that one to bed on her website:
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=57

Cheers,

Dumbledad.



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 14:00:11 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:00:11 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
In-Reply-To: <dblkef+5o0t@...>
Message-ID: <dblldb+e8fe@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" <spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
R
E
M
E
M
B
E
R
T
H
O
S
E
B
L
O
O
D
Y
S
P
A
C
E
S

> > > But Tom was there in the mid-40's, and Tom was a brilliant 
> student.  I haven't heard anyone say the same of Sevvy, have you?
> 
> Dungrollin:
> HBP, Chapter 15 The Unbreakable Vow, pp 298-9 (UK ed) 
> "But I don't think I've ever known such a natural at Potions!" said 
> Slughorn, regarding Harry with a fond, if blood-shot, 
> eye. "Instinctive, you know - like his mother! I've only ever taught 
> a few with this kind of ability, I can tell you that, Sybill - why, 
> even Severus -" 
> 
> And then a few paragraphs later:
> 
> "Well, then it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should 
> have seeen what he [Harry] gave me, fist lesson, the Draught of 
> Living Death - never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, 
> I don't think even you, Severus -"
> 
> No, not even Severus, not on a first attempt. But the notes in that 
> book were notes he presumably made over the course of his sixth and 
> seventh years for his NEWTs. Even Hermione has never made up her own 
> spell before, while Snape had done at least two before his OWLs, 
> *and* one of them was non-verbal.  
> 
> Kneasy:
> > > We've been told that Voldy isn't the HBP. Has is actually been 
> > spelled out that Tom isn't either? 'Cos unless it has Jo might be 
> doing a Dobby.
> 
> Dungrollin:
> 'Fraid she did, it's somewhere on the website in the FAQs.
> Ah. Here:
> http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=57
> 

Ah well, back to the drawing board.
Mind you, I'm convinced that the textbook has more to offer than
has been revealed already.

Maybe, as Eloise posits, there's an as yet unknown connection to Lily.

Or maybe, scribbled in some cramped margin is information on that
very individual hair lotion that makes bouncy  tresses hang like damp 
curtains. With mold.
Worth a fortune, that is.
Weasley Enterprises would pay a packet for it, call it 'Trichoslump' or
something.

Kneasy





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 14:02:12 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:02:12 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
In-Reply-To: <dblkef+5o0t@...>
Message-ID: <dbllh4+m4li@...>

"To his great surprise, the Prime Minister felt a fleeting stab of 

pity for Fudge at this point. It was however eclipsed almost
 
immediatedly by a glow of smugness at the thought that, deficient

though he himself might be in the area of materializing out of

fireplaces, there had never been a murder in any one of the

government departments under *his* charge...Not yet, anyway..."

****************************************************

Jen: Love those politicians. ;) now on to Kneasy's thoughts:

> Kneasy:
> > > We've been told that Voldy isn't the HBP. Has is actually been 
> > spelled out that Tom isn't either? 'Cos unless it has Jo might
> > be doing a Dobby.

> Dungrollin:
> 'Fraid she did, it's somewhere on the website in the FAQs.
> Ah. Here:
> http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=57

Jen: I'm not sure it matters though. Whenever JKR uses '50 years' it 
always seems to conincide with the time Tom Riddle was in school. 
Like when the COS was first opened and when Hagrid was in school.

So I'd like to think that textbook was certainly there when TR was 
at Hogwarts. Was it actually his, or was Hermione right that it 
belonged to Eileen Prince? Either way, it's interesting that TR and 
Miss Prince went to school together. You wonder what, if anything, 
she told young Severus about her old schoolmate Tom Riddle.

Another book 'full of Dark Magic' could be an interesting plot 
twist. Unlike Harry, Snape must have continued to use the book and 
kept it through his lifetime (for reference?). He would be drawn to 
the powers of a book with Dark Magic.

Harry did say, "In spite of the increasing nastiness of those 
scribbled spells, he had refused to believe ill of the boy who had 
been so clever, who had helped so much....." (US, chap. 30, p. 638). 
Now that sounds like someone we all know and love after meeting TR 
in HBP, doesn't it? Increasing nastiness under a veneer of 
cleverness and helpfulness. Hmmmm.

Jen





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 14:09:27 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:09:27 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
In-Reply-To: <dbllh4+m4li@...>
Message-ID: <dbllun+pafm@...>

another thought

another thought 

another thought 

another thought 

another thought  

Jen again: I didn't make my first post clear. I do think Snape was 
the one who actually wrote in the textbook and is the HBP, but it's 
conceivable to me that TR could actually have owned the book or had 
something to do with it, if only through Eileen Prince. 

There, got that off my mind.

Jen







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 11:49:12 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:49:12 +0100
Subject: Credit where credit is due....
Message-ID: <6E1D451A-471E-4791-9D48-2D900D46EADD@...>

S
P
A
C
E
T
H
E
F
I
N
A
L
F
R
O
N
T
I
E
R

There dwells amongst us an astute theoriser, but he's of a modest   
and retiring disposition. So he doesn't post his ideas on the boards  
as often as he should.

Horseclucks. Not a plot device that very many fans would think of as  
a plot device - but Lyn Mangiamelli did - or something as close as  
makes no difference. Every so often he's kind enough to bounce ideas  
into my mail-box and usually at least the essence of the idea gets a  
mention (with appropriate credits) in a post of mine. I'm pretty sure  
I mentioned this idea somewhere, but I'm damned if I can find it -  
it'll be some time towards the end of last year. If anybody can  
locate it (almost certainly on HPfGU) please let me know.

Anyway, below is an extract from the relevant mail.
Be impressed. I am.

Kneasy


 >snip
Though unlikely, I've been wondering for the last couple of months if
part of the reason why DD was reluctant to take out LV was that there is
that the corporeal LV is not the entire LV.  Perhaps the Riddle of the
diary was not merely a memory, but an actual piece of LV. After all,
diary Riddle seemed to need GW's "life force" in order to become
corporeal  (and presumably a freely mobile agent). Doesn't this seem a
little like the vanquished LV who needed other's "life force" to
eventually be fully corporeal and thus fully powerful again.   So. what
if part of LV#1's plan for immortality was to encapsulate portions of
himself and distribute them in a number of locations, the diary being
but one. Thus the events at GH were unable to entirely destroy him, as
there were multiple pieces of him everywhere.

We have wondered why it is that he is so slow in making his moves, now
that he has returned, and why he still seems so relatively weak. What if
it is because he is still in the process of collecting his full powers
(i.e., collecting the parts of himself), and it is taking time to
acquire them from each hidden location (likely known only to him for
what they are, just so no one else can access them).

What if HP's attempted possession was not only to acquire HP's powers,
but perhaps to store some of his own away. Wouldn't it be a hoot if LV
did not share some of his powers accidently, but rather deliberately.
What a great strategy to first take over your intended nemesis, and then
to fool everyone by using the newly possessed  nemesis as a place to
store some of ones powers--in such a case, the intent would have never
been to kill HP. Who would ever suspect. Of course things went awry, but
perhaps not as much as others suspect. Might it be that HP finds diary
Riddle so familiar, because he is an interrupted/incomplete second
(fourth, fifth or sixth) version of diary Riddle.
 >



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 14:17:34 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:17:34 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
In-Reply-To: <dbllh4+m4li@...>
Message-ID: <dblmdu+24ei@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> wrote:
S
P
A
C
E
I
S
A
V
A
C
U
U
M

> 
> So I'd like to think that textbook was certainly there when TR was 
> at Hogwarts. Was it actually his, or was Hermione right that it 
> belonged to Eileen Prince? Either way, it's interesting that TR and 
> Miss Prince went to school together. You wonder what, if anything, 
> she told young Severus about her old schoolmate Tom Riddle.
> 
> Another book 'full of Dark Magic' could be an interesting plot 
> twist. Unlike Harry, Snape must have continued to use the book and 
> kept it through his lifetime (for reference?). He would be drawn to 
> the powers of a book with Dark Magic.
> 
> Harry did say, "In spite of the increasing nastiness of those 
> scribbled spells, he had refused to believe ill of the boy who had 
> been so clever, who had helped so much....." (US, chap. 30, p. 638). 
> Now that sounds like someone we all know and love after meeting TR 
> in HBP, doesn't it? Increasing nastiness under a veneer of 
> cleverness and helpfulness. Hmmmm.
> 

Good thinking; useful for folk grasping at straws.
If the book did belong to Miss Prince, and if the family were broke,
wouldn't it be likely that her textbooks would be re-used by her
beloved off-spring?

And if her textbooks with interesting marginal notes where propping
up the wobbly kitchen table, might this be how Sevvy learned all
that Dark Magic that Sirius accused him of?

And just to round off the tale, if in the RoR Harry finds an old desk
with "Eileen luvs Tom" inscribed on it, then we'll know where the spells
came from.

Kneasy





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 14:50:25 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:50:25 -0000
Subject: Peter again small HPB spoilers was Re: HBP various responses and thoughts
In-Reply-To: <dblidg+n0em@...>
Message-ID: <dblobh+pns7@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> Pippin:
> 
> > No it couldn't. Harry's amazed that anyone could kill thirteen
people with one curse. And he's a third year by that time.
It wasn't ordinary, even for the WW. Even the killing curse only
takes people out one at a time.

Amy:
> Sorry, still don't see why that points to Lupin, or anyone else 
besides Peter.  Surely you don't believe that canard about Peter
being  a poor wizard?  It's a classic setup!<

Pippin:
That's one of Jo's traps, but we should have learned our lesson from
Neville. Just because a wizard is  cleverer or more powerful than
everyone thinks doesn't turn him into Superwiz. What magic have 
we seen Pettigrew do? He stunned Ron and transformed into a rat.
That last was impressive, but it seems the transformation itself isn't
that difficult -- Sirius could do it even in Azkaban. Apparently, the 
hard part is learning to do it all, and we know Peter had a struggle
with that.

He binds Harry to the headstone, but doesn't trust the knots and
has to check them. He cuts them off by hand when freeing Harry.
He lights a fire at the base of a cauldron, a spell even Hagrid can 
manage with a busted wand. 

Everything else happens off screen, even the murder of Cedric.

"Wormtail" did it. But that's an alias. What's the point of an alias,
except to conceal identity? Canon's full of dual names and 
mistaken identities...cough*half-blood Prince*cough.

In HPB, he can't even conjure a tray of drinks, though Dumbledore
does it all the time. 

But say, for the sake of argument, that Peter's a superwizard, not 
only in a class with Sirius but far beyond. Why on earth should he 
let himself be captured by Sirius and Ron alone? A wizard who
can destroy twelve people with a single spell can't overcome a 
wandless emaciated wizard who got beat up by a twelve year old, 
and another twelve year old with a broken leg? Peter couldn't think 
of a way of getting Ron's wand away from him, even with the element
of surprise? Aw, c'mon. And don't tell me Jo had to do it that
way for the story -- there's too many other examples.
  

Why did Vapormort trust himself in his presence when he was 
afraid to  reveal himself to even the  weakest of his other
followers? 

Why should Babymort feel safe taunting him, when they're alone 
in the Riddle house? And what about that taunt, anyway? You're
only here because you're afraid of you're old friends, and that's
why I won't give you permission to leave? Unless at least one
of those old friends gives a hoot about Voldemort's permission,
the taunt makes no sense at all.

Why should Snape think it safe to bully him in HBP?


Pippin





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 14:56:20 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:56:20 -0000
Subject: It's All a Question of Style
Message-ID: <dblomk+sbsm@...>

Spoilamente
Spoilerrific

Spoilillimus
Spoilophagus

Spoilerini
Spoilidad

That
Should
Be
Enough


"Magic always leaves traces, sometimes very distinctive traces. I
taught Tom Riddle. I know his style." (DD, chap. 26 p. 563)

Wasn't that part fascinating? I'll miss Dumbledore's information
about the mysterious parts of the WW. No one else seems to
understand these ancient traditions, or not anyone Harry appears to
know. He'll be the one to pass on this wisdom, maybe, depending....

The big question is, did Harry learn enough in the cave to also know
and recognize Voldemort's style? Sometimes clever, sometime crude,
mixed with a fear of 'darkness and death'...that seems to be the
style of Tom Riddle, at least during the time he was hiding and
protecting the locket.

Although I think Dumbledore is saying that like any creative art, a
magical style is recognizable across time and skill levels. So even
Voldemort's advanced magic would presumably have undercurrents of
Riddle's preoccupation with darkness, death, dismemberment, etc.

Wondering now if Harry has a distinctive style. He sure was throwing
around the Dark Magic left and right, wasn't he? Doesn't seem as
opposed to it as James was. So he's slightly aggressive, but must
use his heart in his magic as well. Not sure what else to say about
him.

I'm thinking Hermione's style would be a bit by-the-book, of course.

Ron's? A little whimsical, unstructured but effective (with a good
wand).

But the stuff in the cave was advanced, a mixture of potions,
detection skills, a Riddle of course. :-) We haven't seen anything
so complex from the Trio.

Jen







From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 15:00:36 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:00:36 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: delayed reactions
In-Reply-To: <dblfu3+kqju@...>
References: <dblb90+4n33@...> <dblfu3+kqju@...>
Message-ID: <a636324605072008005dec3f24@...>

On 7/20/05, bluesqueak <pip at ...> wrote:
> 
>  How many rhymes are there for spoiler?
> Especially when Hogwarts has no boiler. 
> For Moby Dick we could still use oiler,
> But here we have to fall back on toiler.
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> There's an acronym in there somewhere, but I'm not good on those. 
> :-)
> 
> 
How about "SANTA" - Snape's Affections for Narcissa Tossed Aside?


-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 15:02:28 2005
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:02:28 -0000
Subject: HBP various responses and thoughts
In-Reply-To: <dbjrug+10pv7@...>
Message-ID: <dblp24+vaa8@...>

Pippin: " No, he didn't. The more you read his confession the more
gaps  and suspicious areas it has. He mouths like he's been hit with a
 silencing spell at one point, (and now we know there's nonverbal, 
wandless magic), no one ever explains why he needed to kill all  those
Muggles"

Amy: "He didn't. He just needed to create a big enough explosion that
it would be plausible that there was no body, and enough chaos that no
one would notice a running rat. Or wolf, as the case may be."

Agreed. Peter didn't care if none or a hundred Muggles were killed -
he just wanted to escape.

Amy: "no one ever explains *how* he did it -- if Voldemort  knew a
spell that would kill everyone within twenty feet of himself,  don't
you think he'd use it to perpetrate a few mass Muggle killings  now
he's back?"

The key is that what Peter did was probably improvised, at least in
part. Either Peter somehow let it be known where he would be found,
sure that Sirius would come after him, or got caught by surprise. Even
if Peter planned on Sirius finding him (not likely unless Peter was
under orders from LV) there's almost no way Peter could know exactly
when, where and how Sirius would confront him.  It's also possible the
size of the explosion surprised even Peter - he might have cast a
Reducto on an actual gas line without knowing it was there.

I guess my point is that things like the Peter/Sirius confrontation
can't be planned out in every detail.  There's too many uncertainties.
Peter got lucky.

Jim F.






From boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 15:03:54 2005
From: boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid (Smythe, Boyd T {FLNA})
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:03:54 -0500
Subject: HBP: thoughts...
Message-ID: <FDCCEEC6AAC8DD4AA2DD0C28E41D2832C280E6@...>

S ome
P eople
O btained
I t
L ater
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

Loved it--one of the better ones IMO. Her writing is just a pleasure to
read. Made me think:

* Looks like we've finally got that powerful dark lord and dark war we've
been hankering for! Thank goodness! Can't wait for the chaos of the
marauding Dementors, acromantulas, giants and all in book 7. Hurray, chaos!
* Surely in that moment before the AK where Snape gazes at DD included a
Legilimens'd order from Dumbly to kill him?
* What is so important about Draco now that Snape has to be sure he's saved
from the fight?
* Whose future cataclysmic betrayal of LV would be the bangiest? Could that
RAB actually be PAP with added panache? Do we know Peter's middle name?
Would anyone be more likely to cause LV to scream in dismay when he
discovers that person has betrayed him? Is that how Peter fulfills his
life-debt to Harry? Isn't that what we're headed to in book 7? Because
Regulus just doesn't seem bangy to me. The other options are Borgin and
Burkes, of course, where LV discovered some of the relics.
* Harry and all of his classmates suck at doing magic. 11 year old wandless
Tom was already forcing people to "Tell the truth" and performing wandless
magic left and right. A teenaged Severus was rewriting the potions book and
creating his own spells. The teenaged Marauders were all animagi. Even Fred
and George have done new magic. Meanwhile, Harry and Ron still struggle to
do magic without speaking and Harry can't Occlumens worth a darn. Has anyone
in his class done anything magically to be so proud of? Weak, weak, weak. So
this leads me to believe that either Harry is going to have to go up a
learning curve that strains credulity, or he's going to need tons of help in
his final engagement with LV. So my money's on Snape and/or Pettigrew
disabling LV enough for Harry to do what he must, which will necessarily
involve love (yuck) much more than magic. But love of whom?
* Off to hunt horcruxes. Er, ok, whatever. How exactly will they be able to
find even one? None of the trio know any of the magic that DD used to locate
the others, unless Hermione's been studying at more than we know. So they'll
need help. Lots of it. Dobby/Kreacher?
* Is there anything we don't know yet about why LV wanted to come back to
Hogwarts to teach? DD assumes he was looking for another item to make a
horcrux. Is that it? Seems hardly enough to make him curse the DADA
position.
* The Gleam's still a mystery to me. Red herring?

Tons to do in Book 7, eh? She'll likely reduce the number of horcruxes to
hunt by using this BAP character to do most of the dirty work. But when you
think about it, she doesn't need many words to do a lot; the Harry-Snape
duel took less than 2 pages.

--boyd
"I am not worried, Harry. I am with you."



From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 16:25:00 2005
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:25:00 -0000
Subject: About those Hor-thingies
Message-ID: <dbltss+1es5@...>

I type away; I want to post;
But what I'm thinking of the most
Is how to shield unspoilt eyes
Of those of you who compromise
By reading here when, glory be!
You haven't finished H-BP!

If you exist, I have a query:
Why prize the book less than mere theory?
...............................

I was having a problem with the "tearing the soul" thing -- what the
implications are, and why LV is so changed and his DEs are not. Help
me see if I am making sense, or if what I'm saying sounds plausible.

I am trying to get at what exactly is uniquely evil in making
Horcruxes, beyond the fact of the murders themselves. I thought there
must be something, because presumably LV has murdered more times than
he's made Horcruxes, and plenty of his DEs must have murdered at least
as many as he has. Yet LV is the one who's made a white, snaky,
red-eyed skull-face of himself.

Sluggy said that the making of a Horcrux just *takes advantage* of the
fact that murder tears the soul in two. I accept that Jo means that
murder really does tear off a piece. You can do magic to store the
torn-off piece outside yourself. This magic is considered so horrible
that a Restricted Section book on Dark Magic won't even talk about it.
Yet, murder itself is not hard to do and everyone knows it's possible,
so Horcrux-magic must be so secret for another reason.

As I said, I do believe that murder doesn't just injure, but actually
fragments the soul. However, it may make a huge difference whether you
leave the pieces of soul together within yourself or extract them to
make Horcruxes. Perhaps there is some chance of healing the soul
(albeit, most likely with scars) if you merely do murder. Deliberately
separating yourself into Horcruxes may make that impossible; it may
mean you've made yourself absolutely and deliberately irredeemable as
long as any of them exist.

Do you think this can be what Jo means LV to have done to himself?

~Anne






From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 16:47:09 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:47:09 -0000
Subject: Credit where credit is due....
In-Reply-To: <6E1D451A-471E-4791-9D48-2D900D46EADD@...>
Message-ID: <dblv6d+m93q@...>

SPOILER     SPACE     INVADERS     SPOILER     SPACE     INVADERS
SPOILER     SPACE     INVADERS     SPOILER     SPACE     INVADERS 

SPOILER     SPACE     INVADERS     SPOILER     SPACE      NVADERS
SPOIL       SPACE     I VADERS     SPOILER       ACE       VADERS

SPOILER      PACE     IN ADERS     SPOILER     SPACE     INVAD
S OILER        CE     IN  DERS     SPOIL       SPACE     INVA

    LER        CE     INV  ERS     SPOI ER     SPACE     INVA   S
                                   SP  LER     SPA       INV    S


                   !

                   /*****\
                !***********!
                !***********!






--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> 
> There dwells amongst us an astute theoriser, but he's of a 
modest   
> and retiring disposition. So he doesn't post his ideas on the 
boards  
> as often as he should.
> 
> Horseclucks. Not a plot device that very many fans would think of 
as  
> a plot device - but Lyn Mangiamelli did - or something as close 
as  
> makes no difference. Every so often he's kind enough to bounce 
ideas  
> into my mail-box and usually at least the essence of the idea gets 
a  
> mention (with appropriate credits) in a post of mine. I'm pretty 
sure  
> I mentioned this idea somewhere, but I'm damned if I can find it -
  
> it'll be some time towards the end of last year. If anybody can  
> locate it (almost certainly on HPfGU) please let me know.
> 
> Anyway, below is an extract from the relevant mail.
> Be impressed. I am.
> 
> Kneasy
> 
> 
>  >snip
> Though unlikely, I've been wondering for the last couple of months 
if
> part of the reason why DD was reluctant to take out LV was that 
there is
> that the corporeal LV is not the entire LV.  Perhaps the Riddle of 
the
> diary was not merely a memory, but an actual piece of LV. After 
all,
> diary Riddle seemed to need GW's "life force" in order to become
> corporeal  (and presumably a freely mobile agent). Doesn't this 
seem a
> little like the vanquished LV who needed other's "life force" to
> eventually be fully corporeal and thus fully powerful again.   So. 
what
> if part of LV#1's plan for immortality was to encapsulate portions 
of
> himself and distribute them in a number of locations, the diary 
being
> but one. Thus the events at GH were unable to entirely destroy 
him, as
> there were multiple pieces of him everywhere.
> 
> We have wondered why it is that he is so slow in making his moves, 
now
> that he has returned, and why he still seems so relatively weak. 
What if
> it is because he is still in the process of collecting his full 
powers
> (i.e., collecting the parts of himself), and it is taking time to
> acquire them from each hidden location (likely known only to him 
for
> what they are, just so no one else can access them).
> 
> What if HP's attempted possession was not only to acquire HP's 
powers,
> but perhaps to store some of his own away. Wouldn't it be a hoot 
if LV
> did not share some of his powers accidently, but rather 
deliberately.
> What a great strategy to first take over your intended nemesis, 
and then
> to fool everyone by using the newly possessed  nemesis as a place 
to
> store some of ones powers--in such a case, the intent would have 
never
> been to kill HP. Who would ever suspect. Of course things went 
awry, but
> perhaps not as much as others suspect. Might it be that HP finds 
diary
> Riddle so familiar, because he is an interrupted/incomplete second
> (fourth, fifth or sixth) version of diary Riddle.
>  >

Coo, well impressed, please pass on standing ovation when next in 
contact.

Also a laugh at my expense. I was thinking had I read this prior to 
HBP I would have said that there was insufficient foreshadowing to 
justify this idea in particular Voldy's own apparent uncertainty as 
to what he's done.  I would have argued that we'd have to have been 
tipped off by some references to Voldy's fondness for certain 
objects. Plus if there were multiple parts then it would stand to 
reason that one of Harry's tasks would be to hunt them down and 
there simply wasn't enough room in the last *two* books to add a 
quest of this magnitude. Ha Ha. So much I know.

On the topic of foreshadowing I think the theorists can have a field 
year or two, it would appear that JKR's idea of what constitutes 
fair and reasonable information is, shall we say,  parsimonious. We 
can accept any theory which casts as much shadow as an ant at high 
noon in death valley frankly.


Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 17:59:01 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:59:01 -0000
Subject: Credit where credit is due....
In-Reply-To: <dblv6d+m93q@...>
Message-ID: <dbm3d5+p5r8@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> wrote:
Not
Much 
Need For
Spoiler
Space


> 
> Coo, well impressed, please pass on standing ovation when next in 
> contact.
> 

Don't worry, he'll probably notice later today.
He's a member of toc.

> Also a laugh at my expense. I was thinking had I read this prior to 
> HBP I would have said that there was insufficient foreshadowing to 
> justify this idea in particular Voldy's own apparent uncertainty as 
> to what he's done.  I would have argued that we'd have to have been 
> tipped off by some references to Voldy's fondness for certain 
> objects. Plus if there were multiple parts then it would stand to 
> reason that one of Harry's tasks would be to hunt them down and 
> there simply wasn't enough room in the last *two* books to add a 
> quest of this magnitude. Ha Ha. So much I know.
> 
> On the topic of foreshadowing I think the theorists can have a field 
> year or two, it would appear that JKR's idea of what constitutes 
> fair and reasonable information is, shall we say,  parsimonious. We 
> can accept any theory which casts as much shadow as an ant at high 
> noon in death valley frankly.
> 
>

Worrying, isn't it?

We pore over the text, analyse canon and carefully craft theories, the
majority of which are often considered most unlikely if not impossible
by a fair proportion of the membership.

Then Jo pulls a whole rabbit farm out of the hat and the realisation
begins to sink in that far from being too fanciful, we've been depressingly
timid by comparison. Look at this last book - Snape is HBP (why does that
make my mind itch?); Fractured!Voldy; a poisoned bird-bath that DD glugs
down; power-stuffed Founders relics (though we really should have predicted
that one); zombies; Draino turning really nasty (the opposite to what most 
predicted); Snape getting DADA job *and* AK-ing DD. If you'd put even a 
small selection from that lot in your predictions they'd have called for the 
long-armed weskit that ties up neatly at the back.

It bothers me that according to JKR less than a handful of fans appear
to have got close to "what it's all about". That's millions that have got
nowhere - after years of web-induced cross-fertilisation of ideas. 

Right. I'm not having that.
SFAIC until the last book arrives *nothing* is too crazy to think of. Fire
enough random shots and it's a statistical certainty that at least one will
hit the bulls-eye. 
Anything is possible. Except for theories I don't like.
And that's the problem - personal tastes get in the way.
Bugger. Here we go again.

Kneasy 






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 18:16:21 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:16:21 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
In-Reply-To: <dblmdu+24ei@...>
Message-ID: <dbm4dl+6t3t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> I
> S
> A
> V
> A
> C
> U
> U
> M
> 
> > 
> > So I'd like to think that textbook was certainly there when TR 
was 
> > at Hogwarts. Was it actually his, or was Hermione right that it 
> > belonged to Eileen Prince? Either way, it's interesting that TR 
and 
> > Miss Prince went to school together.
 snip>
 > Harry did say, "In spite of the increasing nastiness of those 
> > scribbled spells, he had refused to believe ill of the boy who 
had 
> > been so clever, who had helped so much....." (US, chap. 30, p. 
638). 
> > Now that sounds like someone we all know and love after meeting 
TR 
> > in HBP, doesn't it? Increasing nastiness under a veneer of 
> > cleverness and helpfulness. Hmmmm.
> > 
> 
> Good thinking; useful for folk grasping at straws.
> If the book did belong to Miss Prince, and if the family were broke,
> wouldn't it be likely that her textbooks would be re-used by her
> beloved off-spring?
> 
> And if her textbooks with interesting marginal notes where propping
> up the wobbly kitchen table, might this be how Sevvy learned all
> that Dark Magic that Sirius accused him of?
> 
> And just to round off the tale, if in the RoR Harry finds an old 
desk
> with "Eileen luvs Tom" inscribed on it, then we'll know where the 
spells
> came from.
> 
> Kneasy

I think Harry liking the HBP without knowing his true identity is 
rather ironic. From the get-go, Harry has always felt ill will 
towards Snape. All these years of doing horrible in potions, only to 
do well under the indirect guidance of Sanpe and Mom. I agree, this 
was probably Eileen's book and she passed it down to Snape.

Eileen luvs Tom???? LMAO!!!!

Regards,
Fran





From melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 18:38:59 2005
From: melclaros at melclaros.yahoo.invalid (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:38:59 -0000
Subject: Credit where credit is due....
In-Reply-To: <dbm3d5+p5r8@...>
Message-ID: <dbm5o3+5tsl@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith"
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...>
wrote:
> Not
> Much 
> Need For
> Spoiler
> Space


la
la

la
la



la

la

la


> Then Jo pulls a whole rabbit farm out of the hat and the realisation
> begins to sink in that far from being too fanciful, we've been
depressingly
> timid by comparison. Look at this last book - Snape is HBP (why does
that
> make my mind itch?); Fractured!Voldy; a poisoned bird-bath that DD
glugs
> down; power-stuffed Founders relics (though we really should have
predicted
> that one); zombies; Draino turning really nasty (the opposite to
what most 
> predicted); Snape getting DADA job *and* AK-ing DD. If you'd put
even a 
> small selection from that lot in your predictions they'd have called
for the 
> long-armed weskit that ties up neatly at the back.
> 
> It bothers me that according to JKR less than a handful of fans
appear
> to have got close to "what it's all about". That's millions that
have got
> nowhere - after years of web-induced cross-fertilisation of ideas. 
> 
> Right. I'm not having that.
> SFAIC until the last book arrives *nothing* is too crazy to think
of. Fire
> enough random shots and it's a statistical certainty that at least
one will
> hit the bulls-eye. 
> Anything is possible. Except for theories I don't like.
> And that's the problem - personal tastes get in the way.
> Bugger. Here we go again.



I think more of us have got closer than she wants to admit. I've never
been one to memorize all the acronyms for the thousands of theories
that have come and gone over the years over on That Other List, but
for instance, I know for sure that the idea of Snape having to hand DD
 his mortality papers to prove his loyalty to both VD and the Right
Side came up more than once.

Ok, so she got us on the Birdbath of Doom, and I personally think the
Half Blood, Prince was a rip-off and blatant cop-out of a plot device
but as far as the Important things, I think she's running just *one*
step ahead of the crowd. If that.

Mel





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 19:53:31 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:53:31 -0000
Subject: Fathers
Message-ID: <dbma3r+ic4j@...>

All quotes below
from current issue
of TIME magazine
July 25th, 2005

don't know how much is enough,
will do a few more lines
There.

******
*****
****


"Much of Rowling's understanding of the origins of evil has to do 
with the role of the father in family life. 'As I look back over the 
five published books,' she says, 'I realize that it's kind of a 
litany of bad fathers. That's where evil seems to flourish, in 
places where people don't get good fathering.'"

Jen: OK, this surprises me. That's the main object of damage then, 
the absent or controlling/abusive father?

We do have many examples: Barty Crouch Jr. with his sacrificing 
mother and rigid/distant father. Draco & Lucius would probably be 
one of JKR's examples. And if the images Harry's extracts from 
Snape's mind were indeed Tobias Snape, well he was no picnic either.

But the most evil of them all, Tom Riddle, provides a little bit 
creakier example since we have backstory now. Certainly Tom, Sr. 
abandoned the family and that eventually led to Tom's place in the 
orphanage. But it wasn't *exactly* clear-cut. Shallow, vain, 
prejudiced--Sr. was all these things but it's not like he made a 
free-choice decision in the pregnancy, either. But perhaps it's 
enough for evil to breed in absentia, regardless of the reasons why.

OTOH, we have a few absent fathers for the good guys too--where was 
Mr. Black? Neville certainly didn't get to spend any quality time 
with his father. Harry while perhaps having *had* a loving father 
truly remembers only Vernon as a father *figure* (can't ever call 
him a proper father in that relationship).

Now symbolically I can see this more clearly than literally. Harry's 
many father-figures have played a huge role in his magical and 
personal development. Not that any of them last long. But it's 
interesting his most conflicted father relationship, with Snape, 
remains the final one to sort out.

In comparison, TR would accept no substitute. When Dumbledore 
arrives at his door, Tom has long since decided that he needs no one 
to guide him, least of all a father.

Jen






From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 20:06:55 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:06:55 -0000
Subject: HBP:NEWTs and stuff
Message-ID: <dbmasv+rn19@...>

Newts frogs toads
Newts frogs toads
Newts frogs toads
Newts frogs toads
Newts frogs toads
Newts frogs toads
Newts frogs toads
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

One thought that makes me slightly more hopeful for Harry's 
survival. His choice of NEWTS.

To be an Auror, Professor McGonagall suggested he take Potions, 
Transfiguration, Charms and DADA. And so he did. 

Now his other 'Exceeds Expectations' OWLs were Care of Magical 
Creatures, and Herbology. Because he doesn't want to face any more 
deadly little pets of Hagrid, he picks Herbology for his fifth NEWT. 

This gives him the NEWTs required for a career as an Auror - but his 
one optional subject of Herbology means he also has exactly the 
right subjects required for a career as a Healer.

I think either he'll be persuaded against his decision to leave 
Hogwarts, or if Book 7 is out in the wider Wizarding World, it will 
end with Harry deciding to return to complete his NEWTs, and follow 
his new career path. Because I can't think of anything that would 
fit more with JKR's general ethos than her hero deciding his life is 
best spent healing others.

And what was Lily's job? Given that we now know she was studying 
potions as well as charms...

Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape





From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 21:00:33 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:00:33 -0000
Subject: Fathers
In-Reply-To: <dbma3r+ic4j@...>
Message-ID: <dbme1h+g6p9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> All quotes below
> from current issue
> of TIME magazine
> July 25th, 2005
> 
> don't know how much is enough,
> will do a few more lines
> There.
> 
> ******
> *****
> ****
> 
> 
> "Much of Rowling's understanding of the origins of evil has to do 
> with the role of the father in family life. 'As I look back over 
the 
> five published books,' she says, 'I realize that it's kind of a 
> litany of bad fathers. That's where evil seems to flourish, in 
> places where people don't get good fathering.'"
> 
> Jen: OK, this surprises me. That's the main object of damage then, 
> the absent or controlling/abusive father?



Oh, you know that's really interesting. I never got round to 
submitting a question for the Leaky interview, but that was exactly 
what I had in mind to ask about and I find it fascinating that 
perhaps she hadn't realised what a significant role fathers and more 
particularly bad father/son relationships play in her books.

It is rather disturbing that she views it in terms of fathering, 
rather than parenting, but I wonder if subconsciously it is to do 
with her first marriage and worry over what the effect of that break 
up might be on her daughter. 

This general theme is what led me originally to *assume* that Snape 
had an abusive/absent father before we had any concrete evidence (and 
do we now? I don't know, but I'm sure it wasn't a good relationship 
whether Tobias is the man in the Pensieve or not) and to see him 
regarding Dumbldore in a paternal role. Of course we also see 
examples of patricide (TR, Crouch Jr) and one could view Snape's 
killing of DD in this light.

~Eloise
Dashing to watch repeat of Desperate Housewives





From boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 21:26:00 2005
From: boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid (Smythe, Boyd T {FLNA})
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:26:00 -0500
Subject: HBP: DEFT PIG
Message-ID: <FDCCEEC6AAC8DD4AA2DD0C28E41D2832C281EE@...>

S omebody
P lease
O verturn
I ll-begotten
L ist
E lves'
R ules on
S poilers

Two very odd things have struck me. Remember Peter Pettigrew? He of the
once-central role in this drama? Silver hand? Nursed Vapor!Mort back to
health? Blew up umpteen Muggles and apparently framed dear old Sirius?
Former Marauder? Wormtail? Him?

Where in the heck was he in HBP?

Yes, he was shown meekly trying to eavesdrop on snarky Severus...and getting
zapped for his trouble. And then...nothing. Odd. Very peculiar, in fact, now
that I'm less blinded by the most recent cannon. Especially in light of this
(thanks Lexicon):

Rita: What about Wormtail? Is there hope for redemption? 
JK Rowling replies -> There's always hope, of course. You'll find out more
about our rat-like friend in book six (WBD).

OK, so what did we find out about him? He's the ambiguous male companion of
Sevvy at Spinners End. Great, very useful Jo, thanks tons. Hardly seems to
fit that World Book Day online chat from last year. So that's odd thing #1.

The other odd thing is that someone went to all the trouble of finding a
horcrux, then left a signed note saying they're going to destroy it. Huh? If
they're really trying to kill Voldemort, why sign it? If killing him is not
the point, then why steal & destroy it? Here's the note: "To the Dark Lord.
I know I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that
it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux and
intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when
you meet your match, you will be mortal once more. [Initials]" (HBP) Now
there's someone with a score to settle! And despite knowing they will die
before Voldy, they don't plan on confronting him! Very passive-aggressive;
not like any of our heroes. Odd.

Those two oddments cause me to create my first post-HBP theory: Don't
Everybody Forget That Peter Is Germane (DEFT PIG).

DEFT PIG:
1. Choices are important to Jo. She went out of her way to have DD explain
that the prophecy did not rob Harry of personal choice. Even Felix didn't
rob anyone of choices, it just gave Harry small nudges toward the choices
that would work out best for him. So it would be un-JKR-like to cause
Peter's life-debt to Harry to rob little Wormtail of his choices, right? I
think that means that Peter's choices will unintentionally end up helping
Harry. Life-debt repaid, choices maintained.
2. Peter is a pretty good wizard (the GH explosion) who feels rejected by
the Dark Lord he admires. He is constantly mocked. He wishes he could hurt
Voldemort. That'd show Voldy that there's more to Wormtail! But he'd have to
do it very passive aggressively; no direct confrontation for Peter. Still,
this is personal, so he wants LV to know who did him in--maybe someday after
Peter is dead.
3. Pre-GH Peter may well have played a minor role in helping Voldemort steal
and/or create one or more of his horcruxes--so knows how to find where some
were hidden.
4. He steals one or more horcruxes and leaves a note to say, "I did it! See,
Wormtail wasn't so meek after all!"
5. This repays the life-debt to Harry by enabling Harry to kill Voldemort,
without removing any of Peter's free will or choices.

So what does this mean? RAB is really PAP with an added flourish and
Voldemort's vile mistreatment of the one closest to him (sort of the
opposite of love) will cause his tragic downfall. Pleasantly bangy!

I'm sure I'll look back on this tomorrow and decide it's tripe, but it feels
good now. Now back to Cataloguing!

--boyd
"This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry. But trust me...
the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life."



From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 21:45:17 2005
From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:45:17 -0000
Subject: HBP - spoilers - that textbook
In-Reply-To: <dblgfc+b2k9@...>
Message-ID: <dbmgld+j2il@...>

Vikings: snape snape snape snape... 
Waitress: ...snape snape snape egg and snape; snape snape snape 
snape baked beans ...snape snape snape 
Vikings: Snape! Lovely snape! Lovely snape! 
Waitress: ...or Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce 
served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished 
with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and snape. 
Wife: Have you got anything without snape? 
Waitress: Well, there's snape egg sausage and snape, that's not got 
much snape in it. 
Wife: I don't want ANY snape! 
Man: Why can't she have egg bacon snape and sausage? 
Wife: THAT'S got snape in it! 
Man: Hasn't got as much snape in it as snape egg sausage and snape, 
has it? 
Vikings: Snape snape snape snape...  (Crescendo through next few 
lines...) 
Wife: Could you do the egg bacon snape and sausage without the snape 
then? 
Waitress: Urgghh! 


That should be enough snaper space...

Kneasy wrote:


> It's that Advanced Potion-Making thing:
> 
> "It was nearly fifty years old. Neither his father, nor his 
father's
> friends, had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago."
> 
> But Tom was there in the mid-40's, and Tom was a brilliant student.
> I haven't heard anyone say the same of Sevvy, have you?
> 
> We've been told that Voldy isn't the HBP. Has is actually been 
spelled
> out that Tom isn't either? 'Cos unless it has Jo might be doing a 
Dobby.
> 
> If it did belong to Tom and Sevvy 'inherited' or otherwise 
acquired it
> during his time at Hogwarts, what would be the significance?
> Oh, while I'm here, does anyone know of a description of Snape's
> handwriting that is his for sure?


Page 637, Chapter 30, Scholastic

  "Well, it's just that I was sort of right about the Half-Blood 
Prince business," she said tentatively.

<snip>

  "No - no- Harry, I didn't mean that!" she said hastily, looking 
around to check that they were not being overheard.  "It's just that 
I was right about Eileen Prince once owning the book.  You 
see ...she was Snape's mother!"

<snip>

   "I was going through the rest of the old Prophets and there was a 
tiny announcement about Eileen Prince marrying a man called Tobias 
Snape, and then later an announcement saying that she'd given birth 
to a --"

So, you see that while Sevy wasn't at school 50 years ago, his dear 
mummy was.  It seems to me that this talent for potion making was 
passed down to him from the lovely Eileen Prince, who may have been 
talented at more than Gobstones.  So, the handwriting was very 
likely hers and not her son's.  That would explain why neither 
Harry or anyone else recognized it.

Jo S., slightly misty at the thought of Snape's birth announcement





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 22:49:52 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:49:52 -0000
Subject: HBP various responses and thoughts (minor spoilers only)
In-Reply-To: <dbjp2o+f8eu@...>
Message-ID: <dbmkeg+c2ud@...>

> Pippin (of Pettigrew):
> 
> No, he didn't. The more you read his confession the more gaps
> and suspicious areas it has. He mouths like he's been hit with a 
> silencing spell  at one point, (and now we know there's nonverbal, 
> wandless magic), no one ever explains why he needed to kill all 
> those Muggles, no one ever explains *how* he did it -- if 
Voldemort 
> knew a spell that would kill everyone within twenty feet of 
himself,
> don't you think he'd use it to perpetrate a few  mass Muggle 
killings 
> now he's back? 
> 
> Instead he's got to resort to blowing up bridges and setting 
giants 
> loose --In the words of the immortal Nero Wolfe, pfui!

I don't get it.  How is a spell that blew up a bridge, killing a 
large number of Muggles, inferior to a spell that blew up a street, 
killing a large number of Muggles?

>how could he set off an explosion spell and not be caught by the 
blast?

Magic?

>Even the killing curse only takes people out one at a time.

Ah, but that's wizards.  You can kill Muggles much more easily - car 
crashes, throw 'em out of a high window, the sort of thing wizards 
just bounce out of.  Admittedly canon is somewhat inconsistent on 
this point (why did Dumbledore feel the need to catch Harry in the 
PoA Quidditch match? why was Neville injured falling off his 
broom?), but presumably a wizard who is on their guard against 
attack is very hard to kill except by AK.

Oh, and haven't we always known about nonverbal magic?  I see it as 
one of the ways JKR routinely marks adult wizards out as more 
competent than the children.  Molly cooking, Lupin boiling a kettle, 
Dumbledore drawing up chairs, I'm sure the list is long.  Note too 
the exceptions: Lockhart, Trelawney.

David





From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 22:58:02 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:58:02 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Oh, my.
Message-ID: <dbmktq+aml2@...>

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview2.html

David





From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 23:07:12 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:07:12 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Oh, my.
In-Reply-To: <dbmktq+aml2@...>
Message-ID: <dbmlf0+860l@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> 
wrote:

> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview2.html

Yeah.  That's really going to calm people down.  Although some may 
enjoy the quote:

"...it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape 
is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really 
nothing in the canon that supports that."

-Nora keeps reading on, because there's a lot of stuff in there





From SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 23:16:21 2005
From: SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid (songbird3411)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:16:21 -0000
Subject: HBP: DEFT PIG
In-Reply-To: <FDCCEEC6AAC8DD4AA2DD0C28E41D2832C281EE@...>
Message-ID: <dbmm05+2uo4@...>

H
O
W
M
U
C
H
L
O
N
G
E
R
D
O
W
E
N
E
E
D
T
H
I
S
?


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Smythe, Boyd T {FLNA}"  wrote: 

>> Two very odd things have struck me. Remember Peter Pettigrew? He 
of the once-central role in this drama? Silver hand? Nursed Vapor!
Mort back to health? Blew up umpteen Muggles and apparently framed 
dear old Sirius? Former Marauder? Wormtail? Him?<<

Now Mindy:

I am sorry, I don't have any new theories to present just yet.  I am 
still in the middle of my first, detailed reread of HBP.  However, 
there are two things I wanted to respond to.  First is the above 
comment about Pettigrew.

I agree.  Wasn't this strange?  Pettigrew got quite a build up in POA 
and GOF.  Then, nothing?  The Spinner's End chapter would have worked 
just as well without Pettigrew there.  There was really no earthly 
purpose for him to be there.  Of course, this is JKR, so I assume 
there must be some Important Reason Pettigrew was there.  She showed 
us Pettigrew for a reason.

The more I think about this, the more interesting it gets.  Pettigrew 
has been assisting Snape?  That is one whopper of a coincidence, eh?  
Voldemort has one DE with a life debt to Harry and another who I read 
as being one of his deadliest enemies in the world (and also probably 
helping out Harry).  These two just happen to be working together?  
Who set this up?  Voldemort, or Snape?  The two DE's with suspect 
loyalties and they are working together.  Once I finish my reread, I 
am going to do some theorizing on possible outcomes of this 
scenario.  None of them look good for Voldemort.

Secondly, I want to thank Pippin for something.  Pippin wrote:  

>>I think Dumbledore withheld the proof of Snape's
repentance because it *was* proof. It would leave
absolutely no doubt in Harry's mind -- or
Voldemort's-- that Snape was faithful.
As Harry is no Occlumens and never will be, that
would be very bad news for Snape.

There is only one guaranteed proof of loyalty. Snape
must have summoned Fawkes. As Dumbledore
says in CoS, only someone who showed him
real loyalty could do that. And notice how Fawkes
sang out in HPB when Harry pledged his loyalty
to Dumbledore again.<<

I find this to be utterly brilliant.  Brilliant.  I have been sitting 
here pondering how Sevvy can clear his name if there is no one alive 
who knows he is loyal.  This is so simple, it must be right.  I hope 
you don't mind, but I am going to share this with another list.  I 
will certainly credit you.  Brilliant.

Off to finish that reread.

Mindy







From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 23:32:40 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:32:40 -0000
Subject: Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbmlf0+860l@...>
Message-ID: <dbmmuo+p2og@...>

If
defoliation
is
a
kind
of
despoliation
why
isn't
a
foiler
a
kind
of
spoiler?

Nora quoted She-who-shoots-from-the-hip:

> 
> "...it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that 
Snape 
> is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's 
really 
> nothing in the canon that supports that."

Golly.  Wow.  I hadn't got that far when I dashed over here.

Naturally one took sides in these debates, but I hadn't expected or 
wanted it to end in a hail of bullets like this.

Blood on the floor.  Blood on the floor.

David





From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 23:34:41 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:34:41 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
Message-ID: <dbmn2h+mge6@...>

I've had some recent correspondence with Kneasy that he's cajoled me into posting. I'm 
posting it virtually unedited, along with a second email I shared with him. One is old and 
here will follow the new, the latter being my response to Kneasy when he asked what I 
thought about the new book. I fear some of this has been brought up by others already, 
(as I haven't had time to read even a quarter of the post-HBP commentary), so my 
apologies in advance for any repetition.

My take on HBP. Just some random thoughts, the least important of which was it was 
lacking in detail and I wish it had been 150 pages longer. Way sorry we will never get more 
of DADA being taught by Snape, for example, while it was almost tedious to tick off yet 
another point inserted just to clear up a matter for the fans. Still a more pleasant read 
than OOTP.

I'm sure others have already seized on how we must now re-interpret Snape's memory of 
mother cowering before presumably his father. Much room for a wide range of speculation 
here, in particular, there is now going to be room for speculation about how Snape 
acquired his brilliance.

Some will hate all the relationship stuff, but I don't think it should be discounted. I suspect 
that relationship stuff will prove pivotal in #7, but not in the obvious way. I think three 
important relationship themes were renewed in this book.

One, that death can interrupt all relationships, but not end or diminish them.

Two, Harry being a part of a trio loyal to each other (loyalty that has been tested and 
refined and enduring), a trio that have secrets shared only within that group, and with 
DD's expressed permission and even encouragement. There has to be significance in this 
that runs well below the superficial appearance.

Three, the significance of the sacrificial aspects of the relationship between lovers I think 
will be trivialized or easily dismissed by some (particularly with respect to Fleur/Bill or 
Tonks/Lupin), but is perhaps one of the most important pieces of foreshadowing (or 
perhaps, actually backlighting) left for us. Of greatest importance is the nature of Ginny's 
relationship to Harry, how it has remained intense, mostly suppressed, and why it must be 
concealed--how it comes secondary and sacrificed to his aims and requirements, out of a 
respect for his mission (saving others, indeed the WW world) and his approach to that 
mission. Of course am I still talking about GW/HP or am I talking about ??/DD. Why am I so 
sure GW/HP relates to and is a way to prepare us for a ??/DD? It was Ginny's choice of 
words "noble reason," in my memory the word "noble" has only been used once in the 
book and it was Minerva applying it to DD (I am not, however, saying Minerva is the ??). To 
me the presence of the word "noble" was an intended tip off. I think one of the bangs of 
the last book will be us learning the ??/DD, and how it involved a lifetime of sacrifice on 
the part of at least two people, and perhaps their offspring. Now that DD is dead, the need 
for concealment will have ended.

Which brings me to the still unrevealed reason why DD so trusts Snape. So, I will again go 
out on a limb I have climbed out on in a previous post to you.* Snape may well be the 
progeny of DD, either son or grandson. In my earlier post to you, I think I primarily played 
up the Grandfather angle, but lets try the father possibility (I have no idea if the time lines 
are conceivable [sorry]). Indeed, I shall be so bold here as to suggest that there is some 
possibility that the muggle "father" of Snape is not the biological father of Snape. What if 
following an act of wizarding indiscretion, Ms. Prince becomes aware that a child is on the 
way, and the father says his relationship as father must be concealed for the child's and 
mother's safety. A muggle father might well be a fall back substitute.

Some snippets of how this might fall in line with other themes in the book.
1. Harry being hidden away with the Muggle Dursleys, and left to their abuse with the 
larger goal of protecting him. Perhaps but a successor to somewhat previous tactics of DD 
towards his own.
2. That Snape is likely the most powerful wizard in existence next to DD and LV. So where 
does he get those powers and talents, specifically with respect to Occulomency, 
Legillimancy, and Potions [OLP].
3. The repeated reminders that talents are often passed down within families. Granted DD 
has a great mastery of many things, but haven't some of his more recognizable talents 
been in the areas of OLP.
4. JKR's comments about not being able to reveal marriages etc. We still haven't had one 
revealed.
4. The reason why DD trusts Snape so completely and perhaps even, unrealistically. That 
"softy" DD cannot avoid feeling a trust and even love for his own progeny.
5. The information that Harry could not bear. The level of cognitive dissonance he could 
not master, that his most hated and most loved and admired figure were father and son 
(grandson). DD sometimes appears to actually want to tell Harry, but it appears he always 
thinks better of it.
6. Then there is the irony of the HBP. Might it well be that it is a sarcastic reference to his 
understood but unrevealed relationship to DD.
7. And finally, wouldn't it all fit in so well with Snape's disdain not only for HP's celebrity, 
but that Harry is so often associated with the accomplishments/popularity of his forbears. 
If you were the progeny of the most famous/accomplished wizard that ever lived, might it 
not be irksome to never be able to reveal that, while others go on about how Harry is so 
like the attributes (usually positive) of James and Lilly.

Then, even less likely and farther afield, (and not really believed) but Prince and Pince are 
quite close, the latter simply having lost the 'R'. Just before the funeral, I can understand 
Filch being mentioned more than Pince.

It could all be very wrong, probably is wrong, (so what else is new) but these are the 
thoughts that have been stirring since reading the book.

Oh and BTW, I don't think there is any question that Harry will return to Hogwarts. Keep in 
mind the subtitle of every book till now has been "Year X at Hogwarts."

...and the story of DD's hand was consistently postponed. Perhaps just to show how death 
interrupts the future opportunities we took for granted, but how he was damaged 
obtaining/dismantling a HorCrux may be important to Harry's future efforts, so one 
wonders if there will be some advice, if not a story, yet coming from the "other side."

Lyn

*The earlier 8\8\04 Post to Kneasy. Of course the part about the dark wizard father has 
already been proven wrong.


Just a sharing and a seeding of something that I have pondered.

What if (of course the "what ifs" in the HP series are endless), Snape is DD's grandson.

Consider it this way.

DD has a daughter that, because of DD's anti DA activities, goes unknown. This daughter 
makes a very poor choice of a spouse. The irony exists of the great champion over evil 
wizrds having his daughter freely choose to mate with a bad guy. This dark wizard abuses 
her, as well as the child they have--namely Snape. DD doesn't interfere as his daughter 
has made her choice and as long as she maintains it, he does not intrude--there is also 
the matter that he doesn't want to reveal his relationship to her for fear that the forces of 
Grindenwald will attack her.  Of course this also means that Snape is raised in an abusive 
home.

Snape comes to Hogwarts where he has been told grandad is a prestigous teacher. Here he 
again doesn't find support or public recognition from grandad (perhaps now because DD 
doesn't want to be seen as favoring, or even revealing, a family member; and perhaps 
because DD is so bothered that a descendent of his would embrace Slytherin--of course 
Snape could have chosen Slytherin just to irk and reject granDD). A few know, then or 
later, perhaps McGonagal and Hagrid, and they treat Snape with greater respect than is 
warranted, perhaps partially out of respect for DD,  but DD himself stays distant (not 
unlike he did occasionally with HP).

Worse still, DD shows first a liking for, then favoritism to JP and his friends. He even goes 
on to make JP headboy over the more academically talented Snape, and protects the 
Marauders when Snape's life is threatened. The perseived rejection Snape must feel would 
be overwhelming, and make it quite possible for him to join LV's new crew in opposition to 
everything granDD stands for.

For whatever reason, perhaps because he comes to see how despicable LV is (but likely 
something much deeper), he reconciles with grandDD and becomes willing to become a 
spy. DD now has a trust and interest in Snape for the first time, in no small measure 
because he finally sees Snape choosing to act as a Griffindor, and consistent with granDD 
values. GranDD and Snape for the first time have a meaningful relationship, one which 
leads DD to trust Snape in a way, and for reasons, he is unwilling to share with others 
(partially to protect Snape in his relationship to LV and perhaps to not undermine his 
support for Snape before the Wizengammut).

Then along comes HP, first as the focus of attention after his parents deaths, and the fall 
of LV. Later upon entering school the relationship between DD and Harry deepens with DD 
showing an interest and love that Snape, was denied as a grandchild. The resentment, 
both with respect to JP and DD must be intense. Yet in the midst of this is granDD is 
seeking Snapes assistance in the caring of this youth--a request that is specially made 
and trusted because Snape is a family member. Snape also begins to see that granDD left 
HP to the "wolves" (actually the Dursely's and Aunt Marges dog) not unlike how DD seemed 
to leave Snape.

Of course just about none of this has canon support, but if I am recalling things, it is not 
contradicted by cannon either (isn't this the way  these things always start).

Anyway, I hope it provides some passing amusement, rather than irritation.

Lyn






From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 20 23:40:42 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:40:42 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers: Whom does Snape REALLY love?
Message-ID: <dbmndq+j2jm@...>

WOULD
YOU
FINISH
READING
THE
DARN 
BOOK 
ALREADY
BECAUSE
I'M
SHAMEFULLY
EXPOSED
HERE
AS
THE
ONLY
MEMBER
WHO
CAN'T
COME UP
WITH A
CREATIVE
SPOILER
SPACE
 


OK, not *all* my theories, speculations and predictions were shot down
in HBP. Only about 99% of them. But hey, I did have at least *one*
speculation that turned out correct: Bellatrix is older than Narcissa.
My detailed reasoning for this prediction was originally published in
a post titled "Three Black sisters on a tree"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106729

To very briefly summarize, I noticed that in the Black family tree,
the names of the three sisters appear from left to right in the order:
Bellatrix; Andromeda; Narcissa; and therefore I concluded that this is
the order of their birth. At the time this was against the opinion of
many including the celebrated Lexicon (which assumed Narcissa to be
the same age as Lucius). But DD confirms in HBP that Bella is indeed
the oldest of the three Black sisters, when he discusses the issue of
Sirius' will and the Black estate:

************************************************************
HBP Ch. 3:

"Quite," said Dumbledore. "And if such an enchantment exists, then the
ownership of the house is most likely to pass to the eldest of
Sirius's living relatives, which would mean his cousin, Bellatrix
Lestrange."
*************************************************************

The implications of this on the timeline and love life of the three
sisters were rather extensively discussed in my original post, but
briefly it implies, among other things, that Narcissa is several years
younger than Lucius, in the same age group with the Marauders and
Snape. She might be in the very same year, or a year older or a year
younger than them, but probably not further than that. In the
above-mentioned post I already suggested the possibility of some
interesting dynamics between Severus and Narcissa at Hogwarts, but I
think HBP went much further than that. It is now obvious to me that it
is Narcissa that Snape has always loved, not Lily. Lets consider the
evidence: 


1. In her greatest need, Narcissa comes to Snape for help. What
arguments does she use to convince him? She *doesn't* use any of
"you're honor bound to help your friend Lucius". She doesn't use
"you're honor bound to help Draco because you're a DE/ Slytherin/ old
gang member". Nope, her arguments are much more convincing than that:
she calls him "Severus", she praises him, she gasps, she sobs, she
clutches her long blond hair, she casts her cloak aside and falls on
his sofa with trembling hands clasped, she shed tears on his chest
(no, I'm *not* exaggerating. She most canonically shed them on his
chest), she pleads, she actually kneels before him and kisses his
hand, darn it. And it works. How did she know that this approach would
work on a confirmed SOB like Snape? 


2. And how does Snape acts in response? 

*******************************************************************
HBP, Ch. 2:

Snape said nothing. He looked away from the sight of her tears as
though they were indecent, but he could not pretend not to hear her.
<snip>

Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands.
Looking down into her tearstained face,
<snip>

Snape stooped, seized her by the arms, lifted her up, and steered her
back onto the sofa. 
<snip>

Snape lowered himself so that he was kneeling opposite Narcissa.
Beneath Bellatrix's astonished gaze, they grasped right hands.
*********************************************************************

Huh? Do you believe this? Do you remember Snape *ever* treating
*anybody* else gently and kindly, in the whole series?
 

3. Snape and Narcissa kneeling with clasped hands in front of a
"Bonder", and Snape saying "I will" several times, what does this
image make you think of? Wanna bet Snape was thinking of that too? 


4. As Bella correctly notes, Snape could have easily slither away from
this specific responsibility. None of the Death Eaters would expect
him to guard Draco or act against the spirit of the Dark Lord's
explicit orders. He could have easily ushered Narcissa out with some
vague promises that he'll do what he can. But no, he makes her an
Unbreakable Vow. The BIG sacrifice. Why?


5. Snape's real choice in HBP wasn't killing DD, it was taking the
Unbreakable Vow. Once he had made *this* choice, his only apparent way
to avoid DD's death was to sacrifice his own life, which would be a
huge sacrifice even for a completely converted-and-reformed Snape.
Even if you want to believe in Innocent!Snape and DD somehow enacting
together DD's death, the Unbreakable Vow still seems like a *huge*
complication they could have easily do without. Snape knew the full
implications of the terrible choice he was making. Even Bella was
speechless. So was I.


6. You will notice that Snape most definitely doesn't do this for his
old friend Lucius. You won't find in his words even a hint for some
good word, some whiff of tender emotion for Lucius. He won't say it
explicitly in front of Narcissa, but it's obvious from his comments to
Bella that he despises the man.


7. What do we know about Snape's character? The man seems to be
obsessed with power, status and respect. It's always "I'm the Potions
master in this school", "I will not be talked to like that!" "You will
address me as sir", "Yes Potter, this is *my* job". Snape was a
half-blood kid sorted to Slytherin house, and a member of a gang that
included mostly of pureblood nobility like the Malfoys, the Blacks and
the Lestranges. Instead of using his muggle father's name, young
Severus chose the maiden name of his pureblood mother for his
self-invented nickname. And this name just happened to be "Prince".
Yep, I believe our poor Severus is obsessed with pureblood
aristocracy. He despises them, oh yes, for being so incapable and for
thinking that their ancestry makes them better, but what he wants more
than anything is to be an aristocrat himself, more noble and rich and
powerful than his fellows DEs. He fantasizes about them looking up
admiringly at him. So, whom would this Severus be attracted to? The
muggle-born, independent, smart, cheeky, redhead Lily Evans, who could
respect him for his knowledge and abilities? No, no, no. He'd fall for
the unachievable aristocratic pureblood, rich, elegant, frail, fair
Narcissa Black, who probably treats him like dirt. The Narcissa who
is, naturally, promised to the older, rich, powerful, aristocratic
Lucius Malfoy. 

Yes, the beautiful Narcissa desperately falling on her knees in front
of Severus and kissing his hands, this is what our poor teenager
Severus was fantasizing about when he was sitting alone in his dark
bedoom shooting down flies. And when this fantasy finally comes true,
he's a goner. He must show her that he is the only one who can help
her, while her dear Lucius, her noble rich powerful Lucius, can't do a
thing.  

Is JKR going to play on the S/N ship in Book 7? I'm not sure. Maybe
it's not that important for the plot as a whole. It could be that JKR
will keep it in the level of some dropped hints for grownups to
notice, while her younger readers won't care much about characters'
motives. But I think the hints are most definitely there.


Neri 






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 00:03:15 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:03:15 -0000
Subject: Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbmmuo+p2og@...>
Message-ID: <dbmoo3+7ic4@...>

:
There once was  a wizard named Snape
Who looked like a bat in a cape
Jo says there's no reference
In canon to preference
A reading of Spoilerspace!Snape

> Nora quoted She-who-shoots-from-the-hip:
> 
> > 
> > "...it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that 
 Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because
there's  really  nothing in the canon that supports that."

David: 
> Golly.  Wow.  I hadn't got that far when I dashed over here.
> 
> Naturally one took sides in these debates, but I hadn't expected or 
> wanted it to end in a hail of bullets like this.
> 
> Blood on the floor.  Blood on the floor.

Pippin:
Not mine, I assure you. It was fun while it lasted. And she can't
stop me from thinking he might be part-vampire, you know.

Pippin





From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 01:56:57 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:56:57 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers: Whom does Snape REALLY love?
In-Reply-To: <dbmndq+j2jm@...>
Message-ID: <dbmvd9+nlum@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
>snip< 
> 1. In her greatest need, Narcissa comes to Snape for help. What
> arguments does she use to convince him? She *doesn't* use any of
> "you're honor bound to help your friend Lucius". She doesn't use
> "you're honor bound to help Draco because you're a DE/ Slytherin/ old
> gang member". Nope, her arguments are much more convincing than that:
> she calls him "Severus", she praises him, she gasps, she sobs, she
> clutches her long blond hair, she casts her cloak aside and falls on
> his sofa with trembling hands clasped, she shed tears on his chest
> (no, I'm *not* exaggerating. She most canonically shed them on his
> chest), she pleads, she actually kneels before him and kisses his
> hand, darn it. And it works. How did she know that this approach would
> work on a confirmed SOB like Snape? 
> 
<snip of an extensive, but very well presented and argued theory of Narcissa/Snape>

Really well done, and more importantly, I think you have made explicit JKR's subtle but 
intended presentation of this relationship. It adds but one more relationship to the 
background theme in this book.






From pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 02:11:52 2005
From: pennylin at plinsenmayer.yahoo.invalid (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:11:52 -0500
Subject: My HBP Review
Message-ID: <01b201c58d99$91ba5e30$210110ac@MainDesktop>

Hi all --

Decided I would do a massive review of HBP and respond to many of the posts 
that have been flying about while I've been ruminating and re-reading and 
wondering exactly what I wanted to say frankly.  I was also waiting on The 
Interview, which I've just read.

SHIPPING

Well, let's just start with the Hard Part, shall we?

:::takes very large slice of crow pie and gags it down::::

I concede defeat.  Happy?  Good ------ please spare me the gloating. 
There's no good pretending I'm not utterly and completely devastated by the 
events of HBP.  I'm more devastated by the tone of The Interview.  IMHO, it 
was quite unprofessionally handled by the interviewers, since they 
supposedly have a better understanding of the dynamics of the fandom than 
Rowling would.  To call an entire segment of the fandom "delusional" in an 
incredibly high-profile interview is very poor taste and bad judgment.  And, 
even though Rowling distanced herself from the word "delusional," I'm not 
too happy with her not stepping in ages ago.  I realize that she and the 
other side all believed that the books spoke for themselves, but clearly, 
she was aware that there was this whole segment of people who had a 
different interpretation of things.  I was obviously "over-invested" in this 
whole topic, but it doesn't make the end result any less painful.

I don't mind H/G so much really (although I could have done with JKR 
establishing Ginny's character quite alot more in the earlier books), but I 
still don't feel like I really know and love her, as one should love the 
Hero's girl.  I mean really -- isn't this still him getting together with a 
girl who's both pretty and a great Quidditch player?  Yes, there's more to 
Ginny than that, and I concede that she is his friend on some level (but we 
readers have been exposed to precious little of that interaction).  He's 
still excluding her from the "inner circle" even late in the book after all! 
I don't hate it though.

I don't know whether I think this thing with Harry and Ginny is a lasting 
one or not -- I think it ultimately depends on whether Harry dies or not. 
If he's dying, then I see this as an idyllic little interlude that Rowling's 
given him so that she won't be killing off the Hero whose only sexual 
experience is to believe that kisses are wet because the girl was crying. 
He needed to have a good romantic experience.  If he's not meant to die, 
then I can see it quite possible that he and Ginny reunite at the end 
(though, like Debbie, I think he may be too changed a person).

R/H?  As I said above, I accept that I was "wrong, wrong, wrong" -- oh so 
very wrong.

But.  I.  Don't.  Have.  To.  Like.  It.

And, I don't. And, I *never, ever* will.  I *HATE* and loathe and despise 
this pairing.  Most especially since instead of Hermione pulling Ron *up* to 
her level, it seems that he's going to drag her down to his.  I didn't even 
recognize Hermione in this book, and I didn't like her.  And, I'd never have 
thought I would say *that*.  I absolutely cannot stand and cannot understand 
why on earth Rowling felt compelled to do this.   I can't help wondering if 
the fact so many in the fandom saw Hermione as far more developed and far 
more worthy a girl for Harry caused her to shift gears and downplay Hermione 
overall (and make her a flighty, boy-crazy, scheming shrew that most of us 
who loved her before can't compare to the bright, self-assured, and 
dignified young woman of the previous volumes).  Bitter?  Nah.  That's an 
understatement.

The writing of all the romance stuff?  Gag.  I felt I was reading really, 
really bad fanfic in many places.  "The creature inside his chest roared in 
triumph"?  *Blech*.  :::retching noises:::  Really bloody awful.

And the whole premise of his breakup with Ginny was preposterously silly, as 
Amy Z has already noted.  He's breaking up with Ginny so she won't be a 
target, but yet he's allowing Ron and Hermione to come along on his Quest? 
And, even if they didn't go, are they any safer?  Is there anyone close to 
Harry who is safe at this point?

So ..... moving on .........

WRITING STYLE

Yeah, while we're on this topic, let me just say that I thought this one 
really did have some problems with the writing.  It wasn't just the shippy 
stuff that made me wince and think I was reading very bad fanfic at times. 
Yes, she lost the excess adverbs.  But, really, she is very repetitive for 
one thing.  All the characters "fired up at once" at one time or another. 
Quite annoying.

HARRY

He has definitely come into his own and while I didn't hate the Angry!Harry 
of OoP as many did, I am glad to see him getting his temper under control 
and being more the Harry we all knew from before.

He has become the Leader and the "Chosen One," and there's nothing more 
poignant about this passing of the mantle in my mind than taking the line 
from early in the book when Harry and Dumbledore are going to see Slughorn 
and Dumbledore notes that Harry is safe because "You are with me" and 
comparing it to the journey back to Hogsmeade near the end when Dumbledore 
says "I am not worried, Harry .... I am with you."  That was just 
beautiful -- really it was!  [And it foreshadowed Dumbledore's death nicely 
for any who were still in doubt that this was about to happen .....]

Harry's still not perfect though.  I agree with Catherine that using that 
curse on Draco was hugely akin to the Prank.  (Sparing you all a detailed 
argument of why I think Hermione was wildly OOC to not have kept insisting 
that Harry show that book to Dumbledore, which significantly weakens the 
plot in my mind). He's got alot to learn even yet, and I desperately hope 
that McGonagall is turning over Dumbledore's pensieve (as well as diaries 
and anything else of value that he left) to Harry!

SNAPE

Like Joywitch, my gut inclination is to view Snape as just the same slimy 
evil greaseball nasty git that he's always been in my mind, but sadly, I do 
think it will turn out that the Snapefans are probably mostly right.  Loved 
AmandaGeist's old HPfGU message (#47077) and think she (and Jan) were 
clearly on the right track way back when.  I do wonder though about 
Catherine's question regarding Snape's intent  (and there have been so very 
many Snape messages flying around, I hope I'm forgiven if I missed where we 
all worked this one out already) -- doesn't the AK require a more negative 
intent to murder (rather than a "positive" intent for a mercy killing)?

Amy Z said:

<<<<I can't believe even the exasperatingly tight-lipped Dumbledore wouldn't 
have
warned him about it:  not just "obey my orders even if I tell you to
leave me in mortal danger," but "you may see Professor Snape do
something unthinkable--trust him."  Snape and Harry are now the
deadliest of enemies.  How is this part of a plan?>>>>>>>>

Yes, that is troubling, isn't it?  I dunno.

DUMBLEDORE

He's dead.  Folks, I'm living proof that you shouldn't expect JKR to do 
anything too terribly complex.  She's going for the "obvious" in many cases, 
despite her professed love of Jane Austen.  </bitter rant>  Seriously, he's 
dead.  Dead, dead, dead.  Now whether Fawkes has some unusual connection to 
him and we'll have some remnant of Dumbledore through him, I dunno.  But, I 
don't expect to see whimsical twinkling Dumbledore walking and talking to 
Harry again.  At least one of my long-standing predictions (Dumbledore dead 
in Book 6) came to pass.  Whew, I'm not at zero after all!  But, it's not 
exactly a stunningly novel and clever position to take now, is it?  <g>

THINGS I MISSED (OMISSIONS)

I agreed with virtually everything that Neri wrote, most especially this:

<<<<<<<<JKR invents a whole horde of new characters, which necessarily come 
on the expense of continuing the development of old ones. Why was there any 
need to replace Fudge with Scrimgeur just to fill approximately the same 
function? Neville, Moody and the Creevys
brothers were completely neglected. Bill, Luna, Dean, Lavender and
Hagrid are there but merely as plot devices.  Percy gets half a scene
that doesn't develop the story in any way. Ginny's exclusion from the
trio just doesn't sound realistic:  would a determined girl like that
agree, practically without argument, to be excluded from the secrets
kept by her boyfriend, her brother and her best female friend? Not
bloody likely.>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, yes, yes on the whole "Ginny's being excluded from the Trio" bit. 
Again, it really undercuts the believability of the H/G ship for this to 
continue for one thing.  And, it's just not in keeping with what we're told 
is Ginny's character.  :::high fives Neri:::

1.  Luna and Neville ---- I'm glad Harry was nice and took Luna to that one 
party, but I really could have used more of her.  I think she is 
astonishingly refreshing, and quite perceptive (*loved* her comment that Ron 
could be very funny but could also be very unkind ---- and loved especially 
that Harry agreed with her mentally).  And, where was Neville?  I was 
expecting more -- I guess I had bought into the notion that now that Harry 
was more used to having friends other than Ron and Hermione helping him, he 
would expand his circle of support even more in the last 2 books. 
Surprising to me that the DA disbanded as well.

2.  Percy ----- Are we ever going to learn exactly what's going on with 
Percy?  Starting to think I should give up the PINE membership too ........

By the by, I really enjoy the Goat's neighbor's theories.  The only way that 
Dumbledore drinking all that gunk makes any sense at all is if you consider 
it possible that the gunk was a horcrux that Dumbledore was destroying. 
Good one!

ALCHEMY

I agree with Phyllis that it is a virtual certainty that Rowling is using an 
alchemically inspired structure for the series, and if you've not read John 
Granger's work, rush out and buy it.  [Since this isn't *my* theory --- it's 
John Granger's -- you needn't fear that it is wrong from the get-go].  His 
book is coming out in paperback with HBP points worked in this coming fall. 
Also interesting is the Time interview with Rowling, wherein she says 
("choosing her words carefully"): "I don't think they [her novels] are all 
that secular."

I agree with everyone who has said that she has left an awful left for the 
last book.  There were quite a few things left dangling from earlier books 
that were not picked up in HBP (or weren't fully resolved), not to mention 
all the loose threads left just from this one.  She's quite right to think 
that Book 7 will need to be the size of an encyclopedia ---- it sure seems 
that will be needed unless she can dispense with some things with just small 
bits of exposition.

Hoping that I can just distance myself for awhile and re-read HBP in a few 
weeks and discover that there is still a reason I named my son Harry and 
there is still a reason to love this series, even if I've lost some measure 
of respect for the author this evening ..........

Penny 





From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 02:37:00 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:37:00 -0000
Subject: Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbmoo3+7ic4@...>
Message-ID: <dbn1oc+mmkg@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> :
> There once was  a wizard named Snape
> Who looked like a bat in a cape
> Jo says there's no reference
> In canon to preference
> A reading of Spoilerspace!Snape
> 
> > Nora quoted She-who-shoots-from-the-hip:
> > 
> > > 
> > > "...it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that 
>  Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because
> there's  really  nothing in the canon that supports that."
> 
> David: 
> > Golly.  Wow.  I hadn't got that far when I dashed over here.
> > 
> > Naturally one took sides in these debates, but I hadn't expected or 
> > wanted it to end in a hail of bullets like this.
> > 
> > Blood on the floor.  Blood on the floor.
> 
> Pippin:
> Not mine, I assure you. It was fun while it lasted. And she can't
> stop me from thinking he might be part-vampire, you know.
> 
> Pippin


Neri:
For all JKR knows, he could be <eg>.

I mean, surely she didn't research his grandfathers and grandmothers.
And if she did, she didn't research his grand-grand... so how can she
know?

But I think we can be sure that it's important for Snape's character
that he's a half-blood. A bit like Tom, only Tom's mother was at least
Slytherin's last decendent, and Snape didn't even get that much. So
maybe from his PoV, his Slytherin mates and James and Sirius looked
very much the same. 

I've just finished reading the interview, and I think it was by far
the best and most enjoyable JKR interview, probably because it were
two real fans and not some TV big shot who speed-read the books once
before the interview. I was very interested in the part where she
refers to not saying Voldemort's name as a "superstition". This
probably means we shouldn't look for a magical explanation anymore,
which is going to save me some time and work. I must say that I always
treated her answers in the way she refers to them here, as a "don't
waste your time in this direction, there's much more promising game
elsewhere". I hope they ask her about the Longbottoms in the part that
is going to appear in Friday. I realize it is posible for the series
to end without any magical resolution for Neville's parents. In fact
it will be JKR's style in that "magic doesn't make such a big
difference after all", but I just think it would be a big waste of a
good plot. 

And I still maintain that the shipping in HBP was mostly pretty lousy.

Neri








From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 02:45:28 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:45:28 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <01b201c58d99$91ba5e30$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <dbn288+r9dm@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Penny & Bryce" <pennylin at s...>
wrote:
> Hi all --
> 
> Decided I would do a massive review of HBP and respond to many of
the posts  that have been flying about while I've been ruminating and
re-reading and  wondering exactly what I wanted to say frankly.  
I was also waiting on The  Interview, which I've just read.
> 
> SHIPPING
> 
> Well, let's just start with the Hard Part, shall we?
> 
> :::takes very large slice of crow pie and gags it down::::

Pippin:
Pass me a slice with vampires on it, will ya?<g>

Penny:
  (Sparing you all a detailed 
> argument of why I think Hermione was wildly OOC to not have kept
insisting  that Harry show that book to Dumbledore, which
significantly weakens the  plot in my mind). He's got alot to learn
even yet, and I desperately hope  that McGonagall is turning over 
Dumbledore's  pensieve (as well as diaries  and anything else of 
value that he left) to Harry!

Pippin:
I'm curious. What would be changed if Harry had shown the book to 
Dumbledore and Dumbledore had told him who it belonged to?
Except Ron would probably be dead. I mean, Harry already knew that
Snape had messed around with the Dark Arts in his youth, Dumbledore 
certainly knew it,  and it's not like Harry permanently injured Draco
with that spell.

What would be different?

Penny:
- doesn't the AK require a more negative intent to murder 
(rather than a "positive" intent for a mercy killing)?
> 

Pippin:
Read carefully the description of Dumbledore's body. Does it sound
like he died of AK to you? 

> Amy Z said:
> 
> <<<<I can't believe even the exasperatingly tight-lipped Dumbledore
wouldn't  have warned him about it:  not just "obey my orders even if
I tell you to leave me in mortal danger," but "you may see Professor
Snape  do something unthinkable--trust him."  Snape and Harry are now 
the deadliest of enemies.  How is this part of a plan?>>>>>>>>

Penny: 
> Yes, that is troubling, isn't it?  I dunno.

Pippin:
Same reason Dumbledore couldn't say, "This is why I trust Severus."
Harry is no occlumens. Harry is not going to trust Snape without
proof no matter what Dumbledore says, and the proof, as I've said,
would be dangerous because it *is* proof. It would convince Harry 
and Voldie too. No good. This way, Snape is able to go on spying
a little longer. A year longer, by which time he will have lots of 
information to deliver. Fawkes can prove his loyalty, though 
Harry will probably have to make the decision to trust Snape without
his help.

Pippin





From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 04:23:27 2005
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:23:27 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <01b201c58d99$91ba5e30$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <dbn7vv+gb3f@...>

Penny: ":::takes very large slice of crow pie and gags it down::::

I concede defeat. Happy? Good ------ please spare me the gloating.
There's no good pretending I'm not utterly and completely devastated
by the events of HBP. I'm more devastated by the tone of The
Interview. IMHO, it was quite unprofessionally handled by the
interviewers, since they supposedly have a better understanding of the
dynamics of the fandom than Rowling would. To call an entire segment
of the fandom "delusional" in an incredibly high-profile interview is
very poor taste and bad judgment. And, even though Rowling distanced
herself from the word "delusional," I'm not too happy with her not
stepping in ages ago. I realize that she and the other side all
believed that the books spoke for themselves, but clearly, she was
aware that there was this whole segment of people who had a different
interpretation of things. I was obviously "over-invested" in this
whole topic, but it doesn't make the end result any less painful."

I concede defeat too, did I have a choice? And, I agree that the
"delusional" bit was gloating - I didn't like it.  I don't take back a
word I ever said about who was best suited for who. It didn't happen.
I take some comfort in the fact I never had a problem with Harry and
Ginny; I liked the way she developed.

I agree that Hermione changed for the worse in this book.  I couldn't
understand it on any other basis than it helped R/H happen.  Wait
until she has to explain some discovery of hers to Ron three times and
he still doesn't get it. I wrote a fic once about Hermione giving an
interview post-Hogwarts. The Hermione from this book never could have
given that interview.  I want that Hermione back.

Amy Z: "I can't believe even the exasperatingly tight-lipped
Dumbledore wouldn't have warned him about it: not just "obey my orders
even if I tell you to leave me in mortal danger," but "you may see
Professor Snape do something unthinkable--trust him." Snape and Harry
are now the deadliest of enemies. How is this part of a plan?"

That's one of the big problems with Good!Snape. Exactly how does DD's
plan take into account that Harry will do everything he can to kill
Snape on sight?  How could DD have figured out that he might have to
be killed so that Snape could help Harry? How about killing Snape so
that *Dumbledore* could help Harry? I have a problem with _Mission
Impossible_ plans that depend on a lot of low-probability events
coming together in a way nobody could foresee. Life is messier than
that. Like Joywitch, my inclination is that Snape is a slimeball. What
do you expect from a pig but a grunt?

The characters we watched grow up were largely discarded in favor of
lesser ones - The little nerd Neville turned into a hero with the
heart of a lion, and all his great development was tossed aside. 
Luna, eccentric and lovable, had her fifteen minutes of fame and then
she's over.  A lot of beautiful threads were woven into the tapestry
and then let go. Why?

I share your discontent.

Jim Ferer






From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 04:31:00 2005
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:31:00 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <dbn288+r9dm@...>
Message-ID: <dbn8e4+9sct@...>

Penny:
- doesn't the AK require a more negative intent to murder
(rather than a "positive" intent for a mercy killing)?


Pippin:
Read carefully the description of Dumbledore's body. Does it sound
like he died of AK to you?

We saw the AK leave Snape's wand, hit DD square in the chest, **and
blow him off the Astronomy tower** onto the ground many feet below. I
believe the Hogsmeade medical examiner, if there was one, would find a
variety of post-mortem injuries. Finding none is what would be
unbelievable. I've seen fall deaths. I think JKR wrote the description
of the murder in a way designed, for once, to be unmistakable.





From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 04:35:58 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:35:58 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: My HBP Review
References: <dbn7vv+gb3f@...>
Message-ID: <026c01c58dad$b1275250$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

Jim:
That's one of the big problems with Good!Snape. Exactly how does DD's
plan take into account that Harry will do everything he can to kill
Snape on sight?  


SSSusan:
This concerns me, too, Jim.  The *only* thing I can see preventing Harry from icing Snape the second he encounters him is if he somehow comes to understand the role (Good!)Snape presumably played in 6th year & DD's death.  Given Harry's total unwillingness to listen to Snape ["Wait, Harry!  Don't AK me yet! I can explain!"  (Yeah, right.)], the *only* way I can see Harry stopping to listen... and actually potentially believing in Good!Snape... is if DD's portrait in the Headmaster's office has a good long talk with Harry.

Siriusly Snapey Susan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 05:44:38 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:44:38 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers: Whom does Snape REALLY love?
In-Reply-To: <dbmndq+j2jm@...>
Message-ID: <dbnco6+pu47@...>

Don't worry Neri,

you are not the only one

who can't think of anything more to say

during all this spoiler space.

Toodle-de-doo

twiddle-dee-ee

Neri:
> The implications of this on the timeline and love life of the three
> sisters were rather extensively discussed in my original post, but
> briefly it implies, among other things, that Narcissa is several
> years younger than Lucius, in the same age group with the
> Marauders and Snape. She might be in the very same year, or a year
> older or a year younger than them, but probably not further than
> that. In the above-mentioned post I already suggested the
> possibility of some interesting dynamics between Severus and
> Narcissa at Hogwarts, but I think HBP went much further than that.
> It is now obvious to me that it is Narcissa that Snape has always
> loved, not Lily. Lets consider the evidence: 


Jen: You nailed this one, Neri. There was definitely a tension 
between Narcissa and Snape at Spinner's End, and it did make me 
wonder about romantic tension. You make a great canon case for it, 
including equating the Unbreakable Vow to taking marriage vows. I 
didn't see that one at all, but after reading your comment, it seems 
stunningly obvious. 

I'm reminded of what Slughorn told his students about the Amortentia 
potion:

"It's probably the most dangerous and powerful potion in the room--
oh yes,.....When you have seen as much of life as I have, you will 
not underestimate the power of obsessive love." (chap. 9, p. 186, 
US).

Well, Slughorn got *one* thing right <g>. But I do have a little 
quibble with your theory so far, regarding the attraction between 
Snape and Narcissa:

> No, no, no. He'd fall for
> the unachievable aristocratic pureblood, rich, elegant, frail, fair
> Narcissa Black, who probably treats him like dirt. The Narcissa who
> is, naturally, promised to the older, rich, powerful, aristocratic
> Lucius Malfoy. 

Jen: Unrequited love goes both ways here, I do believe, not just on 
Snape's end. If Narcissa did treat him like dirt, it was only to 
mask her real and desperate feelings. She was most certainly 
attracted to this bad boy, but unwilling to risk being cast out by 
the Black family if she admitted her true love was half-blood Snape. 

No, her fate was set, to marry a 'respectable' pure-blood like 
Lucius Malfoy and propagate little pure-blood babies. Interesting 
she only had one child, seeing as the pure-bloods are dying out. 
Surely she could do her part to populate the pure-blood race, at 
least enough to replace herself and Lucius. But one it is. Perhaps 
that was all she could take of Lucius. 

I don't take her defense of Lucius to Bella as an indication of her 
love for *him* so much as a long-standing sibling rivalry with her 
sister. And her words to Snape show her only concern--Draco. No 
pleas for Snape to get Lucius out of prison, no mention of 
how 'first Lucius, now Draco'. If anything she's incensed that 
Lucius messing up the MOM outing was the reason for LV directing his 
attention toward Draco.

Now for my favorite part of your post, just because it deserves to 
be repeated:

> Yes, the beautiful Narcissa desperately falling on her knees in 
front
> of Severus and kissing his hands, this is what our poor teenager
> Severus was fantasizing about when he was sitting alone in his dark
> bedoom shooting down flies. 

Yes, those flies and erm, all that stuff. ;-)

Jen, who seems to agree with Neri all the way around tonight, 
including that the shipping was 'lousy'. JKR may have enjoyed 
writing the romance, but thankfully Book 7 will get back to what she 
does best.





From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 06:15:15 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:15:15 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <dbn288+r9dm@...>
References: <01b201c58d99$91ba5e30$210110ac@MainDesktop> <dbn288+r9dm@...>
Message-ID: <20050721061515.GA26449@...>

The hills are alive
with a rain of spoilers
The groans will be heard
for a thousand yearrrrrrs
The Lists fill my posts with a screen of spoilers
My feet want to stomp every spoiler I hearrrrrr....


On Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 02:45:28AM -0000, pippin_999 wrote:

> Pippin:
> Same reason Dumbledore couldn't say, "This is why I trust Severus."
> Harry is no occlumens. Harry is not going to trust Snape without
> proof no matter what Dumbledore says, and the proof, as I've said,
> would be dangerous because it *is* proof. It would convince Harry 
> and Voldie too. No good. This way, Snape is able to go on spying
> a little longer. A year longer, by which time he will have lots of 
> information to deliver. Fawkes can prove his loyalty, though 
> Harry will probably have to make the decision to trust Snape without
> his help.

For whom is he spying now?! Who is going to be interested in his information?
Isn't it obvious he's burnt _that_ particular bridge? If his proof is so
earth-shatteringly good, enough to convince _both_ sides of where he _really_
stands, he's only going to need _that_, if he can provide it in time. The
Order are no less keen than Harry to off a Snape in the night.

Spy!Snape is so weak a premise now it amounts to a future Flint if kept. It
doesn't preclude Secretly-Good!Snape but that's long enough a bow as it is.

ewe2, rounding up the firing-squad, which isn't easy because penguins are hard
to corral.

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 06:31:14 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:31:14 -0000
Subject: HBP: The Longbottoms, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbn1oc+mmkg@...>
Message-ID: <dbnffi+rhal@...>

Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler

Neri wrote:

> I hope they ask her about the Longbottoms in the part that
> is going to appear in Friday. I realize it is posible for the 
series
> to end without any magical resolution for Neville's parents. In 
fact
> it will be JKR's style in that "magic doesn't make such a big
> difference after all", but I just think it would be a big waste of 
a
> good plot. 

She won't reply.

Even if it ends up not being the case, it's too obvious (IMO) that 
the attack on the Longbottoms was because the Lestranges somehow got 
wind of something that was in fact a Horcrux in their possession.

David





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 07:47:26 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:47:26 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers: Whom does Snape REALLY love?
In-Reply-To: <dbmndq+j2jm@...>
Message-ID: <dbnjue+nfkh@...>

Great post, 
beautifully expressed! 
All snipped 
bar one sentence. 
Read the original!

Great post, 
beautifully expressed! 
All snipped 
bar one sentence. 
Read the original!

Hey Look! Spoiler space as *me too*! Rules should be subverted, yes?


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> 5. Snape's real choice in HBP wasn't killing DD, it was taking the
> Unbreakable Vow. 
> 
> Neri


Yes! It just doesn't add up. He practically walks Cissy up the path 
to the vow until she *suggests* it!
There are at least three turn back points which Snape misses or 
undermines:

`If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak,'

`The Dark Lord will not be persuaded, and I am not stupid enough to 
attempt it.'

`
he is determined that Draco should try first.'


On the ship front, yup, Snape/Narcissa works much better for me than 
Snape/Lily. 

Previously I suggested LOLLIPOPS Lite.  I love to repeat myself , so 
here it is again!

One of  Lily's secrets might be that among the group of girls 
mentioned in Snape's Worst Memory was her best friend from Slytherin 
and Snape`s passion. 

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.






From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 08:08:59 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:08:59 -0000
Subject: It's That Man Again: issues of trust  (was: Re: My HBP Review )
In-Reply-To: <026c01c58dad$b1275250$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
Message-ID: <dbnl6r+45or@...>

I'M
TOO
DEPRESSED
TO 
THINK
OF 
A 
SPOILER
WARNING
SOMEONE
AK
ME
NOW
PLEASE

>SSSusan:
> This concerns me, too, Jim.  The *only* thing I can see preventing 
Harry from icing Snape the second he encounters him is if he somehow 
comes to understand the role (Good!)Snape presumably played in 6th year 
& DD's death.  Given Harry's total unwillingness to listen to Snape 
["Wait, Harry!  Don't AK me yet! I can explain!"  (Yeah, right.)], the 
*only* way I can see Harry stopping to listen... and actually 
potentially believing in Good!Snape... is if DD's portrait in the 
Headmaster's office has a good long talk with Harry.



Eloise:
Just a thought from one furiously grasping at straws (part 2 of the 
Leaky interview has done nothing to raise my spirits)....

*Two* "characters" supposedly loyal to DD have just disappeared from 
Hogwarts, Snape and Fawkes. I'm linking Pippin's excellent speculation 
(it was yours wasn't it? Apologies if I'm misattributing) that it was 
his ability to summon Fawkes that was the proof of his loyalty to 
Harry's highlighted notice of the fact that he'd disappeared.

Even if the portrait in the office talked to Harry, he'd still think 
that Dumbledore was mistaken to trust him.

One of the things I find most disturbing about all this is what she 
said herself about DD being too willing to trust in the Leaky interview.

Part of my reasoning for thinking that Snape *must* be on the right 
side was precisely the fact that Dumbledore has emphasised his trust in 
him so much (and note, he *didn't* trust TR, so it's not an 
indiscriminate trust). Now I know JKR isn't primarily writing a series 
invested with deliberate messages addressed to young people, but there 
*are* issues she directly addresses. To go through an entire series 
depicting someone as incredibly wise and then to say in the end that 
through *trust* he made this gigantic error which nearly cost the 
entire WW just seems to be such a negative message. There is far too 
little trust in this world already. Is Mad Eye Moody's policy of 
trusting no-one really the model we she thinks we should adopt?

And another thing, having Snape agree to an unbreakable bond to do LV's 
will and then have him do it, having paved the way with various other 
ambiguous incidents and only DD's "I trust Snape"s to counterbalance 
it, just doesn't seem the way things are done. It *assumes* that the 
reader believes Snape is on the right side to begin with and isn't 
going to expect him to betray DD. Certainly my eldest daughter (13) 
reading Ch 2 immediately said "I can't believe that Snape did that", 
meaning that she immediately believed the presented picture, that Snape 
was on LV's side.

On the other hand, maybe it's as unsubtle as the shipping thing and she 
was just making things crystal clear. She hasn't quite got around to 
calling us Snapefans delusional, at least. ;-)

I did think it was an interesting contrast the way she spoke about the 
way she felt she had to intervene with the Draco fans, though (and 
until I read on, I though, yes, that's an indication that we *aren't* 
delusional). But perhaps that's just because she thinks they're young.

Now I wonder if Spinner's End means just what it says: the place where 
Snape stops spinning and his true loyalties show. "It's over". There's 
still a lot I can't fit in with Evil!Snape, though.

And who the hell is the Hanged Man if it's not Snape?

~Eloise


 





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 08:16:59 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:16:59 -0000
Subject: The Chain
Message-ID: <dbnllr+rv77@...>

Talisman: shaking off the debilitating effects of the Unbreakable 
Vow, will now tell you all what to expect in Book 7, or at least 
some really juicy hunks of it.

For the past 4 days I have been honor bound not to post anything 
that might prematurely tip the theory that someone shared with me.  
Therefore, I haven't posted much, and I've tried to stick with 
things going in the opposite direction.

But, as I finally persuaded the theorist to post, I am now similarly 
free to discuss my ideas, which otherwise crossed into taboo 
territory.
 
Unlike some people, I also will give credit where it is due, though 
this appears to be a skill in short supply.  Unsurprisingly.

On July 16, I received an email from Valkyrievixen congratulating me 
on the HBP validation of my contentious 2003 theory from OoP: Guilty!
DD.

You may recall the posts, which were premised on my understanding 
that DD killed Sirius in the DOM.  Well, he did.

Valky was one of the readers who sent me encouraging feedback at the 
time, and apparently accepted my reading as a textual fact, which 
stood her in good stead when she came to DD's death in HBP.

Snape, of course killed DD--just as DD killed Sirius--as a loyal 
member of the OoP.

I posited in Guilty!DD that by allowing Harry to meet and become 
emotionally attached to Sirus (one part of The Plan that was 
accomplished by PoA) and then killing Sirius, DD had activated 
something in Weapon!Harry.  I still stand by this, but there is more.

(You may want to pause for a moment, here, and recall how in both 
cases Harry was a captive audience.)

Of course, at that time we didn't know about Horcruxes. (Can I just 
say to JKR, "You cheat like freaking Agatha, wench.")

Valky's theory is that, beyond destroying the Horcrux, someone one 
has to volunteer to die in order to take that bit of soul to the 
other side.  I agree.

She thought that Sirius finished the job for his brother, Regulus, 
and carried the soul bit from the locket over, just as DD carried 
the bit from the ring.

One of her problems was that DD seems to contradict this when he 
explains how Harry destroyed the Diary Horcrux (503) and elsewhere 
says, that bit of soul [that was in the Diary] is gone (can't find 
the site just now). 

I think she is correct as to why people have had to die (maybe even 
add in Lily in light of JKR's latest info, i.e. that Lily 
volunteered to die for more reason than to protect Harry or juice up 
a defensive charm.)

My take on it is that, yes, DD put Sirius through the veil so that 
he could carry a piece of LV's soul with him.  But it was the piece 
from the Diary.  Harry destroyed the Diary, but he didn't remove the 
soul from inside of it.

He gave the Diary to DD.  DD/JKR reminds us of this in HBP at p. 
500: 

"You handed it to me, Harry," said Dumbledore.  "The diary..."

So, DD found the soul bit and had Sirius carry it beyond the veil. 

Similarly, DD says he destroyed the ring Horcrux, and he says the 
ring is no longer a Horcrux (503), but he simply omits the part 
explaining that *he* now is saddled with this piece of LV's soul 
which has to be taken to the other side.

Snape knew though.  Snape, who loathed killing DD, as much as he 
loved DD himself--which was deeply (and no, not in a sexual way at 
all).

Yes, DD's death accomplished a number of things, the smallest of 
these was an act of mercy that may work it's redemptive power in 
Draco, yet.

More importantly, DD was the courier and Snape was the Order 
member "killer," because, this does indeed allow Snape to shore up 
the wobbly places in his double agent role, which was clearly in 
question, and not just by Bella.  Wormtail wasn't there just to 
serve wine, he was keeping an eye on Snape for LV. 

There are dangerous things Snape needs to do now, and he needs to be 
closer than ever to LV. 

But, the primary reason DD had to die by friendly hand--a voluntary, 
hateless death--was to take the bit of soul from the ring beyond the 
veil.

Back to Valky's idea, Harry's power, love, is the bond that connects 
The Chain of hands that carry the LV soul bits to the other side.  
That is to say the soul-couriers have to be people Harry loves. 

Lily, Sirius and DD all fit the bill.

I really hope Lily carried a piece over.  Then we'll only have to 
lose 4 more.

I think, if a bit of LV's soul was floating free--sort of in front 
of Harry when the AK went off--that may be why it rebounded.  Maybe 
you can't unintentionally AK yourself.

Well, back to Horcruxes.

My take is:
1. The Diary: Harry destroyed the Horcrux, Sirius carried it to the 
other side via DD;

2. The ring: DD destroyed the Horcrux and carried it to the other 
side via Snape;

3. The Locket: still at Grimmauld Place, probably in Kreature's bed 

(I believe DD knew that the locket in the basin was not a Horcrux.  
I do not believe he wants Harry to try to destroy it and in so doing 
either lose the soul bit (for lack of understanding that part) or 
take it inside of him and become the next courier.  DD just wants 
him to learn about it.

Someone else from the OoP--possibly Snape will tell him more when 
the time comes.

Actually, if Harry understood that each piece destroyed requires a 
life he loves, he might not be willing to go forward.

That's why DD is urging him on (510-12) while keeping this 
information from him.

4. The Cup: I agree, it's hidden as Tom Riddle's Trophy in the 
Trophy Room at Hogwarts--what could be safer?  
Valky thinks this is the clue from the Longbottoms: Gum=Mug=Cup.  
Maybe, huh?

5. Nagini (now we understand all that stuff with the silver gizmo 
and the smoke serpents: two essences in one body. )  

6. Ravenclaw/Gryffindor item 

7 LV himself.


Interesting meta idea:the fear of death erased as so many people we 
care about go before us. 

And, along with DD words about imortality being bad for people, sort 
of reverberates of the myth of Aurora and Tithonus, etc.

It may be (I'm not sure I can make my fingers say this) that Snape 
will have to go this way, too.

But, before it's all over, Harry will understand, and will actually 
love Snape.

Talisman, who also predicted Snape for DADA, Snape's thing with 
Narcissa, and Snape as the HBP, prior to the book's release.

PS:  Now we know from JKR herself that no one but DD ever owned 
Fawkes.  Please review the past wand discussion.  And, refrain  from 
using the unfortunate phrase, "duh," in future.

I also hope you can see that DD has had a plan the whole time--
before Harry's birth.

I'll back off the idea that DD created LV, since JKR isn't 
cooperating, but he certainly was managing events prior to Harry`s 
birth and I expect he has set things up that will continue to work 
after his own death.

The other idea I'll retract: Snape is a Vampire: though JKR fails to 
acknowledge she drank deeply from the waters of connotation.  

As to the "Choice" rant DD goes on, well, like many other parts of 
HBP  some of it smells of pandering, and it's pretty limp 
philosophically.

1. First, with the possible exception of some experimental pieces, 
all literature is about choices.  In every story worth it's salt you 
find out what sort of people the characters are by what they choose 
to do in the given situation.  Choices is the theme that's so big, 
it's not a theme worth having. 

2. The crap about how the Prophecy is only meaningful because LV 
acted on it is rather unconvincing: Oedipus did the same, i.e. 
brought the prophecy about by the actions he took to thwart it--and 
I believe that story was meant to prove the inescapability of fate.

(And, what about Trelawney apparently having valid predictions with 
her Tarot cards.  A little nod to fate, thrown back in?)

3. Then there is that business about "you can choose to walk into 
the arena or chose to be dragged."

First, that's a mighty thin allowance of free will.  It's more like: 
choose to accept your fate.  Certainly not enough for anyone to 
argue that DD's management of events would "undermine" the Choice 
Theme.  (And if you can't see DD managing Harry in HBP, you`re in 
trouble) Harry can always chose his attitude no matter what DD does.

But, even that is a juvenile assertion.  Within a certain range of 
events, and depending on what the individual has had to weather in 
life, I'll agree choosing a good/fighting/resilient attitude is a 
laudable thing and there is nothing wrong in advocating such.

But there are definite limits (unless you are a Vulcan or Cyborg) 
and I think the effort to deny human emotion, or to pretend that 
people should try to deny their emotions (or, indeed are always able 
to), is unhealthy and disingenuous. It may just point back to JKR's 
own problems.

So, go ahead.  If you find yourself tied to the RR track and the 
engine bearing down: It's your "choice," scream, or wave and 
say "hi." (N.B. "choice" aided by having had a lobotomy.)

Hey, but it's her story.

Talisman, noting also, when DD allowed Harry to see into the Mirror 
of Erised, he not only taught him about the mirror, he gave Harry 
faces to connect to his idea of parents, thereby increasing the 
amount of love Harry feels for them. 

That love in itself, and the vengeance he seeks from LV on their 
behalf are important to DD's plan.  

People have dismissed my concern (posted on HPfGUs 2003) with what 
DD would really see in the mirror,  but you notice how Rowling won't 
answer the question.  She didn't say socks, either--which was a lie 
when DD said it.






From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 08:20:37 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:20:37 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <dbn8e4+9sct@...>
Message-ID: <dbnlsl+fbh2@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E
YOU KNOW, I JUST HAD TO DELETE THE FIRST VERSION OF THIS BECAUSE I 
FORGOT ALL ABOUT THE SPOILER SPACE

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> 
wrote:
> Penny:
> - doesn't the AK require a more negative intent to murder
> (rather than a "positive" intent for a mercy killing)?
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Read carefully the description of Dumbledore's body. Does it sound
> like he died of AK to you?
> 
> We saw the AK leave Snape's wand, hit DD square in the chest, **and
> blow him off the Astronomy tower** onto the ground many feet 
below. I
> believe the Hogsmeade medical examiner, if there was one, would 
find a
> variety of post-mortem injuries. Finding none is what would be
> unbelievable. I've seen fall deaths. I think JKR wrote the 
description
> of the murder in a way designed, for once, to be unmistakable.

Uh, if she had DD dying of the fall, it probably isn't murder. 
Murder requires *intent*. 

If the AK itself didn't kill Dumbledore, Snape didn't intend to kill 
him enough. Remember Moody? You can point a wand at someone and say 
AK, but without the power, he wouldn't even get a nosebleed. 
Likewise Ballatrix tells Harry you have to *mean* the Unforgivables.

The AK appears to have blasted DD off the roof. That's odd in 
itself. Cedric just fell to the ground. Pippin's already detailed 
the post-mortem injuries, but I'm beginning to agree with her that 
this is a very odd AK, that doesn't agree in several respects with 
the ones we've seen before.

Anyways, if Snape *didn't* intend to kill Dumbledore, it's not 
murder in British law, even if he knocked DD off the roof and DD 
died from those injuries. It's what British law 
calls 'manslaughter'. If even that - it would depend why Snape did 
what he did.

Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act" - Severus Snape







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 09:54:23 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:54:23 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <026c01c58dad$b1275250$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
Message-ID: <dbnrcf+eerc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "susiequsie23" <susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
How, long, 
Is a 
Piece of
String?
How many
Beans make
Five?
Have I  
Used enough
Spoiler space?


> Jim:
> That's one of the big problems with Good!Snape. Exactly how does DD's
> plan take into account that Harry will do everything he can to kill
> Snape on sight?  
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> This concerns me, too, Jim.  The *only* thing I can see preventing Harry from icing 
Snape the second he encounters him is if he somehow comes to understand the role 
(Good!)Snape presumably played in 6th year & DD's death.  Given Harry's total 
unwillingness to listen to Snape ["Wait, Harry!  Don't AK me yet! I can explain!"  (Yeah, 
right.)], the *only* way I can see Harry stopping to listen... and actually potentially 
believing in Good!Snape... is if DD's portrait in the Headmaster's office has a good long 
talk with Harry.
> 

Yes, that portrait is multi-purpose, I think
Firstly it's an indication that DD is dead and secondly that he is still
gonna be available for consultations. Mind you, it wouldn't be
surprising if at some fraught moment Harry either can't get into
the office or the frame is empty ("The Professor is Out - Try Again Later")
because somewhere will be other potraits of DD. Guesses?

Harry will still take some persuading, of course - but there is another 
plot device that can be used to put/keep him within the bounds of
the Dumbledore Plan - bottled memories. He'll get access to some really
important DD memories - maybe involving conversations with Snape.

I was planning on posting a couple of long think pieces regarding HBP in
the next couple of days. Not now. Best to postpone them for a while. 
Just in the last 24 hours the board has filled up with some fascinating 
thoughts - plus that interview - and what's there  already is more than 
enough to keep me occupied. Right now I'm more interested in reading
what others consider important and responding to it than in nailing up
my own little list. Plenty of time (2 years at least) to do that.

Kneasy







From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 12:33:04 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:33:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbmmuo+p2og@...>
Message-ID: <20050721123304.27122.qmail@...>

This
Is 
A 
Third 
Attempt
To 
Post
As 
I
Have 
Accidentally
Deleted
The 
Previous
Two.
Damnation!

--- davewitley <dfrankiswork at ...> wrote:
> Nora quoted She-who-shoots-from-the-hip:
> 
> > 
> > "...it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that 
> Snape 
> > is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's 
> really 
> > nothing in the canon that supports that."
> 
> Golly.  Wow.  I hadn't got that far when I dashed over here.
> 
> Naturally one took sides in these debates, but I hadn't expected or 
> wanted it to end in a hail of bullets like this.
> 
> Blood on the floor.  Blood on the floor.
> 
> David
>



Indeed, and Pippin - you are a better person than I am being able to take this on the chin.  The
reason you came up with that theory was because there *was* canon evidence of Snape!Vampire.  Grr.

Anyway, I am totally "shocked and appalled" by the shipping content of That Interview.   I can't
believe that Emerson and Melissa acted in such a juvenile, gloating way.  I can understand them
being high spirited due to circumstance of interviewing JKR and all, and being R/H shippers as
well, clearly, but the way they handled it....and I think Emerson's apology over using the word
"delusional" makes things worse.

I know JKR tries to distance herself from what he is saying, but I think she's being a little
disingenuous as well.  To talk about "anvil sized hints" with regard to R/H is fair enough, but
she's missing out the fact that as a very mischievous writer who is often unable to give a clear
unambiguous answer to *anything*, she is unable to resist making it less clear cut.  H/H hints
abound as well - it is *never* made crystal clear until well after the first 200 pages of HBP.  Up
until that point, I would have said the most likely outcome was Penny's FITD.  It is obvious how
Ron feels, but not Hermione.  

I am quite happy with G/H, always being a Ginny defender, and I've always been less pro H/H than
anti R/H which really rankles with me, but I'm quite upset about the way in which people's
feelings have been trampled on in this interview.  It's verging on cruel, and I'm really feeling
for my H/H shipping friends right now.  

Catherine



__________________________________________________
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From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 12:53:49 2005
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (Constance Vigilance)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dbn8e4+9sct@...>
Message-ID: <20050721125349.21384.qmail@...>


> 
> Pippin:
> Read carefully the description of Dumbledore's body.
> Does it sound
> like he died of AK to you?
> 
> We saw the AK leave Snape's wand, hit DD square in
> the chest, **and
> blow him off the Astronomy tower** onto the ground
> many feet below. I
> believe the Hogsmeade medical examiner, if there was
> one, would find a
> variety of post-mortem injuries. Finding none is
> what would be
> unbelievable. I've seen fall deaths. I think JKR
> wrote the description
> of the murder in a way designed, for once, to be
> unmistakable.
> 
> 
> 

Furthermore, Harry's curse didn't relax until after
Dumbledore went over the parapet. If the AK had killed
him outright, the curse would have relaxed then. The
AK did not kill Dumbledore.

I think Snape's "wiggle room" is that we don't know
exactly what Draco had committed to do. We assume that
his task was to kill Dumbledore. If so, then the
Unbreakable Vow would have required Snape to kill
Dumbledore. But what if the task was something else?
Like, "Draco, you must AK Dumbledore". In that case,
Snape has fulfilled the requirements of the Vow and
still not killed Dumbledore. I think another clue is
the fact that Snape was reluctant to enter into the
third part of the vow. We see a flinch in the hand
lock with Narcissa begins to speak for the third time.
Snape doesn't know what she is going to ask. He also
takes a moment before he agrees. Time to cross his
fingers behind his back? I don't know.

But one thing we do know. Snape's AK did not kill
Dumbledore.

CV

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 13:10:55 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:10:55 -0000
Subject: Ships
Message-ID: <dbo6sv+t61l@...>

Spoil me not, 

Foul poster,

For I am not as 

Diligent as thee,

Fixating thine buttocks

To the Recliner of Sloth

Whilst engaging naught

But thine own hedonistic

Tendancies.

No, spoil me not, 

For, unlike you, 

I have a life.


Ships.

Well, let me say that I have been OBHWF from long before I heard the 
acronym.

I am still a bit disappointed that my Bill/Remus ship sank, but I had 
not put much stock into it.  

Penny, I must say I felt for you and was thinking of you when I read 
the interview.

The catelouging project has coded posts from HPfGU up to the time OoP 
was released, and I was the one who reviewed the SHIPping category.  
I read 1261 SHIP posts over the course of a few days, so I am very 
familiar with the great Shipping wars, the ships, and their 
proponents.  It was almost like having friends.

To Penny and her crew, I raise my glass.  A toast to you:  You argued 
well and fairly, never stooping to name-calling, always allowing the 
other the right to express themselves; always using canon to the best 
of your ability, and with great insight and clarity.

If you're still looking for canon:  HBP, US page 107, after Harry 
gets his Captain bagde.  

"That gives you equal status with the prefects!"  cried Hermione 
happily.  "You get to use our special bathroom now and everything!"

Hey, if a guy gets a cool sports position, and the girl is only 
thinking of the fact that she gets to bathe with him, the ship floats.

In the words of the Bulgarian minister, "Vell, ve fought bravely."

Ginger, hoping that takes some smarts out of the interview, but 
realizing she's not JKR.





From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 13:52:40 2005
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:52:40 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <20050721125349.21384.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbo9b8+ukce@...>

Constance: "Furthermore, Harry's curse didn't relax until after
Dumbledore went over the parapet. If the AK had killed him outright,
the curse would have relaxed then. The AK did not kill Dumbledore."

We don't know any such thing. Here's the quote:

?A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit
Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left
him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was
blasted into the air: for a split second he seemed to hang suspended
beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backwards, like a
great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight. Harry felt as
though he too were hurtling through space; it had not happened. . . .
It could not have happened. ... "Out of here, quickly," said Snape. He
seized Malfoy by the scruff of the neck and forced him through the
door ahead of the rest; Greyback and the squat brother and sister
followed, the latter both panting excitedly. As they vanished through
the door, Harry realized he could move again.?

That doesn't say Harry's immobilization lifted only later. Harry
*realizes* that what was holding him was horror and shock.  We have
never heard of an AK, unmistakably uttered, with a blast of green
light, hitting someone ? and it's a fake.  We've just made up
something new if we do that.

Draco thinks his job is to kill Dumbledore.
? Malfoy gave a harsh laugh. 'You care about me saying "Mudblood" when
I'm about to kill you?'?

 What was Draco's mission, to scare him? If Snape is unbreakably bound
to carry out his mission, he has to kill Dumbledore.  He had to know
it or guess it when he made the Vow, too. Either he knew or he isn't
as smart as we thought he was.

I'm convinced there is no wiggle room for Snape without inventing
something.
Jim Ferer





From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 14:09:43 2005
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:09:43 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <20050721123304.27122.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F257D0DCEBDBC4613E6A16DD0D60@...>

Just in case...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E

Catherine wrote:
>Anyway, I am totally "shocked and appalled" by the shipping content of That 
>Interview.   I can't
>believe that Emerson and Melissa acted in such a juvenile, gloating way.  I 
>can understand them
>being high spirited due to circumstance of interviewing JKR and all, and 
>being R/H shippers as
>well, clearly, but the way they handled it....and I think Emerson's apology 
>over using the word
>"delusional" makes things worse.

How old are these people?  They sound like they're about 10 (my apologies to 
any 10 year olds out there).
>
>I know JKR tries to distance herself from what he is saying, but I think 
>she's being a little
>disingenuous as well.  To talk about "anvil sized hints" with regard to R/H 
>is fair enough, but
>she's missing out the fact that as a very mischievous writer who is often 
>unable to give a clear
>unambiguous answer to *anything*, she is unable to resist making it less 
>clear cut.  H/H hints
>abound as well - it is *never* made crystal clear until well after the 
>first 200 pages of HBP.  Up
>until that point, I would have said the most likely outcome was Penny's 
>FITD.  It is obvious how
>Ron feels, but not Hermione.

'Anvil-sized hints' ??!! Where?  Did we read the same book?  I've seen 
nothing in any of the books that's an anvil-sized hint for R/H.
>
>I am quite happy with G/H, always being a Ginny defender, and I've always 
>been less pro H/H than
>anti R/H which really rankles with me, but I'm quite upset about the way in 
>which people's
>feelings have been trampled on in this interview.  It's verging on cruel, 
>and I'm really feeling
>for my H/H shipping friends right now.

Thanks, Catherine.  I can live with G/H, since I rather like Ginny (she was 
one of the best things about OotP, IMO, along with Neville).

I'm thinking a whole lot less of JK right now.  Seems to me that she stooped 
to their level, and IMO, that ain't cool.

Parker, haven't finished the book yet, but I've read ahead ;)
>

>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>





From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 14:37:32 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:37:32 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Ships
In-Reply-To: <dbo6sv+t61l@...>
References: <dbo6sv+t61l@...>
Message-ID: <a636324605072107371b4c07d2@...>

On 7/21/05, quigonginger <quigonginger at ...> wrote:
> 
>  Spoil me not, 
> 
> Foul poster,
> 
> For I am not as 
> 
> Diligent as thee,
> 
> Fixating thine buttocks
> 
> To the Recliner of Sloth
> 
> Whilst engaging naught
> 
> But thine own hedonistic
> 
> Tendancies.
> 
> No, spoil me not, 
> 
> For, unlike you, 
> 
> I have a life.
> 
> 
> Ships.
> 

IMO, unless H/G & H/R end up married/engaged at the end of book 7, there's 
still hope for H/H. How many people do you know who ended up marrying the 
person they were dating at age seventeen?

-- 
~JoAnna~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 14:49:15 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:49:15 -0000
Subject: Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <20050721123304.27122.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dboclb+83ok@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman <catorman at y...> wrote:

SPACE,
THE FINAL
FRONTIER -
WHICH 
BOLDLY
WENT 
SOMEWHERE
OR OTHER.

> 
> Anyway, I am totally "shocked and appalled" by the shipping 
> content of That Interview.   I can't  believe that Emerson and 
> Melissa acted in such a juvenile, gloating way.  I can understand 
> them being high spirited due to circumstance of interviewing JKR
> and all, and being R/H shippers as well, clearly, but the way they
> handled it....and I think Emerson's apology over using the word
> "delusional" makes things worse.
> 

As a long term resolute non-, even anti-SHIPper, I was a bit disappointed
myself that so much of this part of the interview concentrated on the
clumsy grapplings of teen-folk. Realistically it'd be impossible to set
HP in a mixed-sex boarding school and not have adolescent hormones
rampaging all over the place, but it would be nice if there was a touch
of the old chaise-longue cha-cha from a couple of the older members
of the cast list - a 'compare and contrast, I'll be asking questions later'
sort of thing. Pity it won't happen.

But Lyn's observations on relationships may well be germane - it's not
unlike Jo to include SHIPs for deeper reasons than for the entertainment
of readers. They're quite likely to end up having more resonance, more 
emotional bang than we've seen so far or than many readers might expect.
Yes, a surprising proportion of the front-line students seem to be 
satisfactorily paired off, but with the final part of the struggle still to come.
In plot terms that's awfully early to be celebrating happy-ever-after endings
- 'cos some of them won't be IMO.

We've had the books with the teen crushes, the almost puppy-love passions
Hermy/Krum/Ron in GoF; Harry/Cho in OoP; more or less everybody in HBP, 
but now comes the time of testing. As Lyn says, it'll be loyalties strained and
death doing the sundering and how they all cope that'll be central to book 7. 
All foreshadowed with the Longbottoms and the Cho/Cedric disaster in 
GoF/OoP. But this time it'll be with characters that the readers have identified
with for a long time.
Get ready to have your withers wrung. 

"Those that survive" is a phrase that herself has used on more than one 
occasion, and the general run of posts has often considered who is going
to end up on the wrong end of a green flash, but doesn't often consider
what this may mean to those left behind. The HP series has been classified 
by fans as a fantasy, an adventure, a whodunnit-and-why, but it is set up
to be quite a notable tragedy too, if Jo wants to take it that way. She may
well do so -"Death is a major theme of the series."

In a lot of ways I often compare Jo with Dickens - oh, not the quality of
the writing, though in years to come who can say? But in what she does
to her characters. Not many soft options seem to be on offer and except
for Harry's encounters with Voldy there have been fewer cast members
let off the hook when in dire situations than might be expected from the
usual childrens/teen tale. It'd be brave and unpopular to keep the trend 
going, but I hope she does.

Kneasy







From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 15:36:14 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:36:14 -0000
Subject: Hanged Man (It's That Man Again: issues of trust )
In-Reply-To: <dbnl6r+45or@...>
Message-ID: <dbofde+ccen@...>

> And who the hell is the Hanged Man if it's not Snape?
> 
> ~Eloise

Just taking a snip from Eloise's thoughts on Snape b/c I suddenly 
remembered a post I wrote after OOTP about Wormtail as the Hanged 
Man.

Someone commented at the time that the Hanged Man represented split 
loyalty as well as willing sacrifice. Here were my thoughts 
(#80512): 

Both of these Tarot interpretations provide more possibilities than
my initial thought(life in limbo). In fact, I think the first
one, "indecision of loyalty" could symbolize Wormtail's current
dilemma, and the "willing sacrifice" will come at the end.

We know Wormtail can't go back. His ex-friends are willing to murder
him and, unlike Snape, his betrayal was too grievous for acceptance
back in the Order. Any latent hopes of reconciliation are dashed in
the Shrieking Shack, and Wormtail chooses to return to Voldemort.

Voldemort is obviously very contemptous of Wormtail and only keeps
him around out of necessity. Wormtail must surely know his days are
numbered--he only has as long as Voldemort has need for him, then
Wormtail will be disposed of. That's one of those unfortunate
consequences of trusting an evil lord.

At this point, Wormtail is also cognizant of his life-debt with
Harry. In an unchararistic move, he risks bargaining with Voldemort
for Harry's life. The struggle inside between his fear of Voldemort
and "magic at its deepest", the pact with Harry, is causing external
problems--he fumbles LV's orders for Crouch, Sr.

Ah, but then Voldemort *gifts* him with the magic hand. I have two
guesses about this hand:

1) Voldemort knowingly gave Wormtail a powerful hand that LV plans to
unleash in battle later; OR

2) Voldemort unknowingly transfers power to Wormtail through some
ancient magic he's unaware of. Yes, that's been done, but you could
fill a book with the things Voldemort's overlooked or underestimated!

Wormtail now has a power of his own. Sometime before the final
battle, Wormtail will resolve his loyalty issuesand use his powerful 
hand to "willingly sacrifice" himself for Harry.

****************

Well, at the time it sounded a bit more original to me than it does 
now. But HBP certainly makes me wonder about the loyalty issues 
again. Hanging out with Snape? 

Jen







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 15:51:41 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:51:41 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dbo9b8+ukce@...>
Message-ID: <dbogad+pp9n@...>

Luke
Skywalker
Is
Princess
Leia's
Brother
Glug!
Glug!
Glug!
(Believe
me, I know
How it
Feels
To
Have
Your
Ship
Blown
Out
From
Under 
You!)


Constance V:
 "Furthermore, Harry's curse didn't relax until after
> Dumbledore went over the parapet. If the AK had killed him outright,
> the curse would have relaxed then. The AK did not kill Dumbledore."

Jim Ferer:
> We don't know any such thing. Here's the quote:
> 
> ?A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit
> Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never
left him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as Dumbledore 
was blasted into the air: for a split second he seemed to hang
suspended
 beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backwards, like a
great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight. Harry felt as
though he too were hurtling through space; it had not happened. . .
.
> It could not have happened. ... "Out of here, quickly," said Snape.
He
> seized Malfoy by the scruff of the neck and forced him through the
> door ahead of the rest; Greyback and the squat brother and sister
> followed, the latter both panting excitedly. As they vanished
through the door, Harry realized he could move again.?
> 
> That doesn't say Harry's immobilization lifted only later. Harry
> *realizes* that what was holding him was horror and shock.  We have
> never heard of an AK, unmistakably uttered, with a blast of green
> light, hitting someone ? and it's a fake.  We've just made up
> something new if we do that.


Pippin:
I don't think so.  Harry's cruciatus, unmistakably uttered,
hit Bella, but didn't work properly.

 "The spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe and 
shriek with pain as Neville had--" and then she says, "Never used an 
Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?" she yelled[...]"You need to
 _mean_ them, Potter!"

We also have Fake!Moody's statement that just pointing your wand
and saying the words won't kill.

Jim:
> Draco thinks his job is to kill Dumbledore.
> ? Malfoy gave a harsh laugh. 'You care about me saying
"Mudblood" when I'm about to kill you?'?

Pippin:
Sure -- but Draco didn't *try* to kill Dumbledore. He lowered his
wand. Snape tried, thus carrying out the deed Draco failed to
perform, the one he was ordered to do, and also failed to kill him.  
Mischief managed.  Snape made much of the fact that the Dark Lord 
_didn't _ expect Draco to succeed. And Narcissa agreed. So Snape
did just  _exactly_  what the Dark Lord had ordered Draco to do.

Dumbledore died of the poison, IMO, before he ever reached the
ground, and this give us the delicious possibilty of 
Accessory!ESE!Lupin, who could have learned of the raid from his 
werewolf contacts and failed to warn the Order. 

That's just like what he did in PoA, when he knew
that Sirius might gain access to the castle, but failed to warn
Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore might have been saved from the 
poison by Snape if there had been time, but the raid forestalled it.
That realization would explain Lupin's anguished reaction, which is so
much more intense than the emotion he displayed over losing
Sirius.

A human body is what,  70% water?  -- I'm no forensic specialist, but
it seems to me a trickle of blood from the mouth is either too much or
not enough. Forgive the imagery, but Dumbledore should have splatted 
like one of Peeves's water balloons. I suspect Dumbledore's luck ran
out about thirty feet from the ground ( advice from my physician
brother, whatever you do, *don't* try to kill yourself  by leaping
from a
third story window. Go upstairs a floor first.) That would be enough
to break all his bones and cripple him for life if he were a Muggle,  
but not to kill him -- if he hadn't been dead already.

I submit Dumbledore fell, but slowly, magically, until the poison
caught up with him. Oh wait, there's canon! " ..and then he fell
slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out
of sight."

Harry realized he could move again, it was only shock holding him --
but that realization came *after* Dumbledore's slow fall off the 
battlement. Before that, he wanted to scream, but he  couldn't -- 
the full body bind still had him at that point. It's not *like*
Harry to stand paralyzed with shock when someone needs him --
he was moving toward Sirius before Sirius had even begun to
fall.

Of course it seemed to take Sirius an age to fall too, 
but it's just like Jo to confuse the issue, as we should all know well
enough by now. 

Pippin
who keeps thinking of the verse, "Though he slay me, yet I will
trust in him."






From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 15:58:54 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:58:54 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review (the Snape part, of course)
In-Reply-To: <01b201c58d99$91ba5e30$210110ac@MainDesktop>
Message-ID: <dbognu+h5q1@...>

Do we still need these?
Too hard to check the rules
Much easier to cut and paste
These lines with edit tools

Do we still need these?
Too hard to check the rules
Much easier to cut and paste
These lines with edit tools

Do we still need these?
Too hard to check the rules
Much easier to cut and paste
These lines with edit tools

Do we still need these?
Too hard to check the rules
Much easier to cut and paste
These lines with edit tools


Penny:

> SNAPE
> 
> Like Joywitch, my gut inclination is to view Snape as just the same 
slimy 
> evil greaseball nasty git that he's always been in my mind, but 
sadly, I do 
> think it will turn out that the Snapefans are probably mostly 
right.  Loved 
> AmandaGeist's old HPfGU message (#47077) and think she (and Jan) 
were 
> clearly on the right track way back when.  I do wonder though about 
> Catherine's question regarding Snape's intent  (and there have been 
so very 
> many Snape messages flying around, I hope I'm forgiven if I missed 
where we 
> all worked this one out already) -- doesn't the AK require a more 
negative 
> intent to murder (rather than a "positive" intent for a mercy 
killing)?

There's been a suggestion that what Snape did was not, or was more 
than, or in addition to, AK, since the AK's we've seen or heard 
reported did not physically move their victim.

Personally, I think it's likely that Snape augmented AK to do the 
physical aspect--because even if he didn't have the heart and true 
intent to kill Dumbledore, the fall sure as hell would. Maybe it was 
spell insurance, blowing him over the edge of the tower in addition 
to the AK--even if Snape couldn't "mean" it the way you must mean AK, 
Dumbledore's death was assured by gravity. Maybe the other DEs 
watching would attribute the physical effect to pent-up frustration 
over the years.

Maybe I'm delusional but humored by the author because while untrue, 
this line of theory is productive in some way.
:)

~Amanda





From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 16:00:47 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:00:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbmoo3+7ic4@...>
Message-ID: <20050721160047.88992.qmail@...>

> > Nora quoted She-who-shoots-from-the-hip:
> > 
> > > 
> > > "...it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that
>  Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because
> there's  really  nothing in the canon that supports that."


Wait a minute.  Am I reading that right?

Did JKR actually use the word "canon"?

Man, maybe she spends more time on line than she admits.  

Magda (who wants to tell JKR to quit googling and start writing Book 7)


		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile 
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. 
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From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 16:11:52 2005
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (Constance Vigilance)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:11:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dbogad+pp9n@...>
Message-ID: <20050721161152.50518.qmail@...>

Pippin comes to my defense:



I submit Dumbledore fell, but slowly, magically, until the poison
caught up with him. Oh wait, there's canon! " ..and then he fell
slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out
of sight."

Harry realized he could move again, it was only shock holding him --
but that realization came *after* Dumbledore's slow fall off the 
battlement. Before that, he wanted to scream, but he  couldn't -- 
the full body bind still had him at that point. It's not *like*
Harry to stand paralyzed with shock when someone needs him --
he was moving toward Sirius before Sirius had even begun to
fall.


CV: I'm wondering about some other tidbits that we know about our kindly Headmaster: 

1 - He knows other ways of becoming invisible. OK, in the past, I've argued that he's a bumblebee animagus. But what if his real talent is that

2 - He's expert in transformation. We know that he was the Transformation Master before McGonagle. She is a known animagus. What if he could transform himself into a white Phoenix!

Let's say the green potion was some kind of Draft of Death with green food coloring. He drank it and was slowly succumbing to the effects before the Snape event. He could easily have used a last drop of effort to transform himself into a winged critter to break the fall, then back to himself with some handy dragon blood for effect. We've seen dragon's blood used as a misdirection earlier in this book.

Then he comes to during the funeral and makes a dramatic transformation into a phoenix, calling Fawkes and they fly away together. We know he likes to make stylish exits.

I think it's just too convenient that his patronis is a phoenix for him not to rise from the ashes once again.

And Snape is a good guy. So there.

CV, who was not a Snapefan before this book.

Anybody who was keeping track of books-to-Sorceror's Stone charms notice that we have just had the Snape challenge? Snape and potions. In spades, right? Next is the Dumbledore (and possibly Unexpected Quirrell) challenge. Look for heart's desires being important.


		
---------------------------------
 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 16:32:58 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:32:58 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <dbnrcf+eerc@...>
Message-ID: <dboinq+pmcd@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "susiequsie23" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> How, long, 
> Is a 
> Piece of
> String?
> How many
> Beans make
> Five?
> Have I  
> Used enough
> Spoiler space?
> 
> 
> > Jim:
> > That's one of the big problems with Good!Snape. Exactly how does 
DD's
> > plan take into account that Harry will do everything he can to 
kill
> > Snape on sight?  
> > 
> > 
> > SSSusan:
> > This concerns me, too, Jim.  The *only* thing I can see 
preventing Harry from icing 
> Snape the second he encounters him is if he somehow comes to 
understand the role 
> (Good!)Snape presumably played in 6th year & DD's death.  Given 
Harry's total 
> unwillingness to listen to Snape ["Wait, Harry!  Don't AK me yet! I 
can explain!"  (Yeah, 
> right.)], the *only* way I can see Harry stopping to listen... and 
actually potentially 
> believing in Good!Snape... is if DD's portrait in the Headmaster's 
office has a good long 
> talk with Harry.
> > 
> 
> Yes, that portrait is multi-purpose, I think
> Firstly it's an indication that DD is dead and secondly that he is 
still
> gonna be available for consultations. Mind you, it wouldn't be
> surprising if at some fraught moment Harry either can't get into
> the office or the frame is empty ("The Professor is Out - Try Again 
Later")
> because somewhere will be other potraits of DD. Guesses?
> 
> Harry will still take some persuading, of course - but there is 
another 
> plot device that can be used to put/keep him within the bounds of
> the Dumbledore Plan - bottled memories. He'll get access to some 
really
> important DD memories - maybe involving conversations with Snape.
> 
> I was planning on posting a couple of long think pieces regarding 
HBP in
> the next couple of days. Not now. Best to postpone them for a 
while. 
> Just in the last 24 hours the board has filled up with some 
fascinating 
> thoughts - plus that interview - and what's there  already is more 
than 
> enough to keep me occupied. Right now I'm more interested in reading
> what others consider important and responding to it than in nailing 
up
> my own little list. Plenty of time (2 years at least) to do that.
> 
> Kneasy

Ironically Harry thinks the HBP is not a bad person and HBP turns out 
to be Snape.... Think this may be a clue to Harry finally accepting 
Snape?  

Fran





From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 16:37:34 2005
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:37:34 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dbogad+pp9n@...>
Message-ID: <dboj0e+95ei@...>

Pippin: "Sure -- but Draco didn't *try* to kill Dumbledore. He lowered
his wand. Snape tried, thus carrying out the deed Draco failed to
perform, the one he was ordered to do, and also failed to kill him.
Mischief managed. Snape made much of the fact that the Dark Lord
_didn't _ expect Draco to succeed. And Narcissa agreed. So Snape did
just _exactly_ what the Dark Lord had ordered Draco to do."

No, Draco's job was to kill Dumbledore, and Snape's vow was to finish
whatever Draco's job if he couldn't, or wouldn't. I didn't quote all
the dialogue that backs that up, but it is there.  Are you saying
Draco's mission was to fail at killing Dumbledore?

Pippin: "A human body is what, 70% water? -- I'm no forensic
specialist, but it seems to me a trickle of blood from the mouth is
either too much or not enough. Forgive the imagery, but Dumbledore
should have splatted like one of Peeves's water balloons. I suspect
Dumbledore's luck ran out about thirty feet from the ground ( advice
from my physician brother, whatever you do, *don't* try to kill
yourself by leaping from a third story window. Go upstairs a floor
first.) That would be enough to break all his bones and cripple him
for life if he were a Muggle, but not to kill him -- if he hadn't been
dead already."

I am a safety engineer. I investigate accidents, and have done several
fall death cases.  I've seen people lying dead, looking pristine in
the front, but the back...  A relative lack of blood can be suggestive
of a post-mortem injury.

The castle is seven stories tall (seven stories is roughly 100 feet),
and the Astronomy tower is presumably somewhat taller. We don't know
how much, so we'll stick with 100 feet.  Long drop.

Pippin, are you a criminal defense attorney?  If they ever get me on
video doing someone in, I want you to defend me. You'll have a story
for me. Way to go! So, the potion killed him in between the time DD
was blasted off the top of the Astronomy tower by the AK spell and the
time he hit the ground. Okay, the jury will go with that.

A Crucio curse and an AK aren't comparable. Harry's half-hearted
Crucio worked, just not well. An AK seems sure to be binary: it either
kills ya or fails utterly. Doing what you say Snape did seems like
shooting someone with a bazooka but not really meaning it.  Mad-Eye
suggested to his fourth-year students that they couldn't cast an AK;
he didn't say the spell could be faked.

Hey, I've been wrong on a lot of stuff here. I might as well be wrong
again.

Jim Ferer





From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 16:55:10 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:55:10 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review (the Snape part, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbognu+h5q1@...>
Message-ID: <dbok1e+38vc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:
> Do we still need these?
> Too hard to check the rules
> Much easier to cut and paste
> These lines with edit tools
> 
> Do we still need these?
> Too hard to check the rules
> Much easier to cut and paste
> These lines with edit tools
> 
> Do we still need these?
> Too hard to check the rules
> Much easier to cut and paste
> These lines with edit tools
> 
> Do we still need these?
> Too hard to check the rules
> Much easier to cut and paste
> These lines with edit tools
>
> Personally, I think it's likely that Snape augmented AK to do the 
> physical aspect--because even if he didn't have the heart and true 
> intent to kill Dumbledore, the fall sure as hell would. Maybe it 
> was spell insurance, blowing him over the edge of the tower in 
> addition to the AK--even if Snape couldn't "mean" it the way you 
> must mean AK, Dumbledore's death was assured by gravity. Maybe the 
> other DEs watching would attribute the physical effect to pent-up 
> frustration over the years.

On the physical aspect: we've seen a spider just keel over.  We 
didn't see Cedric die (IIRC, right?).  So we haven't really seen 
people being AKed in canon.  We did, however, see an intercepted AK 
blast the crap out of things in the Ministry battle.  I don't see how 
AK expressing force is particularly shocking or even abnormal, given 
that latter.  But maybe I'm just rationalizing away valuable clues. :)

-Nora sits the fence on this one





From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 16:52:12 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:52:12 -0000
Subject: Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <20050721160047.88992.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbojrs+s51f@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich 
<mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > > Nora quoted She-who-shoots-from-the-hip:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > "...it's when people devote hours of their time to proving 
that
> >  Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because
> > there's  really  nothing in the canon that supports that."
> 
> 
> Wait a minute.  Am I reading that right?
> 
> Did JKR actually use the word "canon"?
> 
> Man, maybe she spends more time on line than she admits.  

Probably.  I find it telling that she says 'the canon' instead of our 
usual 'canon'.  I dunno about y'all, but I use it that way all the 
time to refer to the texts I'm working on, usually with an adjective 
in front("Dude, is that idea actually in the theory canon?").

I suspect she reads (or has read) HPfGU.  She reads some of the essay 
sites.  I suspect she rather does not read most of the fanfiction, 
and I'm pretty sure from her comments about Draco et al. that she's 
not reading the adult Draco fansites.

-Nora found the interview to be more confirmation of the 95%/5% 
principle





From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 17:01:05 2005
From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:01:05 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HBP: Snape & Wormtail (WAS: DEFT PIG)
Message-ID: <80f25c3a05072110011f9b15c6@...>

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

::watches rod ready to strike::

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

::watches rod ready to strike::

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

::watches rod ready to strike::

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

::watches rod ready to strike::

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

::watches with relief as upraised hand with rod is lowered to owner's side::

*************************

Boyd wrote:
> Two very odd things have struck me. Remember Peter Pettigrew? He of the
> once-central role in this drama? Silver hand? Nursed Vapor!Mort back to
> health? Blew up umpteen Muggles and apparently framed dear old Sirius?
> Former Marauder? Wormtail? Him?
> 
> Where in the heck was he in HBP?
> 
> Yes, he was shown meekly trying to eavesdrop on snarky Severus...and getting
> zapped for his trouble. And then...nothing. Odd. Very peculiar, in fact, now
> that I'm less blinded by the most recent cannon. Especially in light of this
> (thanks Lexicon):
> 
> Rita: What about Wormtail? Is there hope for redemption?
> JK Rowling replies -> There's always hope, of course. You'll find out more
> about our rat-like friend in book six (WBD).
> 
> OK, so what did we find out about him? He's the ambiguous male companion of
> Sevvy at Spinners End. Great, very useful Jo, thanks tons. 

Well, Jo did seem to be shipping everyone.  Why not let Wormtail in on
the action? <g>

But seriously, I've been contemplating the inclusion of Pettigrew in
this scene (probably because that's about as far as I've managed to
get in my reread), seemingly for no purpose than to remind us that he
still exists and that he's an unredeemed coward.

Why pair the repugnant Pettigrew with seductive Snape?  It's to remind
us, I think, that they are mirror images of one another.  They are
both traitors, but up until now we've seen them through very different
lenses.  Snape, with the benefit of Dumbledore's trust, has appeared -
at least outwardly - to have come over to *our* side, creating a very
different picture than Pettigrew, who betrayed *our* side.

It also suggests a third option to the rekindled question who Snape is
really working for.  With Pettigrew, the answer is clear:  he's
working to protect his own hide.  And if my view of Snape's
motivations is correct, he is doing exactly the same thing.  Like
Pettigrew, Snape is in position to end up on the winning team --
regardless of which team it is.  Nobody *really* knows.  Except that
Snape does it more deftly, more elegantly, than Pettigrew ever could. 
Nevertheless, they seem to be well able to Look Out for No. 1.

So why do we, by and large, find Pettigrew repulsive while we lavish
our fascination on Snape?  One difference is style.  As Pip so
rightfully points out, our man Snape can *act*.  The other is courage.
 It takes an immense amount of courage, and a bit of brinksmanship, to
keep up the double agent game as Snape is doing.  Pettigrew, of
course, has neither, a point which is hammered home as he fails even
to eavesdrop on a conversation without being discovered, and much more
powerfully when he refuses Snape's offer to take on a more active task
for Voldemort.

And Jen wrote:

> Wormtail now has a power of his own. Sometime before the final
> battle, Wormtail will resolve his loyalty issuesand use his powerful
> hand to "willingly sacrifice" himself for Harry.
> 
> ****************
> 
> Well, at the time it sounded a bit more original to me than it does
> now. But HBP certainly makes me wonder about the loyalty issues
> again. Hanging out with Snape?

I think they were hanging out together to remind us that Snape and
Wormtail will facing the same choices in Book 7.  Not to mention how
much pleasure Snape must get out of tormenting one who once enjoyed
Snape's humiliation so much that he nearly wet his pants.

Debbie
who wants to respond to so much else, but probably won't get to it
until tomorrow night at the earliest



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 17:03:55 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:03:55 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <dboinq+pmcd@...>
Message-ID: <dbokhr+clfp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> wrote:

IF SPACE
IS A
VACUUM,
HOW 
COME WE 
AREN'T 
SUCKED
UPWARDS?
> 
> Ironically Harry thinks the HBP is not a bad person and HBP turns out 
> to be Snape.... Think this may be a clue to Harry finally accepting 
> Snape?  
> 

This is one of the 'revelations' that I'm not too comfortable with.
Harry believes it; not sure I do. Seems somewhat more than a little
contrived.  OK, Jo can get a bit clunky  sometimes, but this, it's
Aggie Christie at her most irritating -  if it's true.

Not the first time that Harry has had to change his estimation of
others, it  happens with almost metronomic regularity - Quirrell,
Snape, the Diary, Sirius, Snape, Crouch!Moody, Snape, Dung and
of course Snape. Once more with feeling, Harry! You should be 
used to it by now.

But Harry has always looked for reasons to justify his instinctive
antipathy to Sevvy - and Sevvy has always co-operated by giving 
him plenty of the justification Harry wants. This time it's different,
Snape could always treat Harry's opinions with contempt, dismiss
them as irrelevant, because he knew he'd be backed up by DD. Not
this time. This time Harry is left with just his own very emotional
responses, there is no authority figure telling him he's mistaken.

Yep.Harry's gunning (wanding?) for Sevvy.
This is gonna be interesting.

Kneasy





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 17:07:23 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:07:23 -0000
Subject: HBP:  Voldy meets his match
Message-ID: <dbokob+c2g8@...>

You'll spoil your
appetite if
you that before 
supper....
the good
the bad
the spoiled

The note left in the locket in the basin:
To the Dark Lord.
 I know I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to 
know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real 
Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in 
the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more. 
RAB

Is RAB refering to someone specific in this note? The note writer 
seems to know LV will face someone equal, his match. Since popular 
theory is saying RAB is Regulus, then did he know of a person, 
possibly Harry, who was LV's match? It would be ironic if RAB was 
Regulus, and Sirius never knew of this good deed! 

Regards,
Fran





From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 17:15:56 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:15:56 -0000
Subject: HBP: Snape & Wormtail (WAS: DEFT PIG)
In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a05072110011f9b15c6@...>
Message-ID: <dbol8c+tglg@...>

-- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb <elfundeb at g...> wrote:
 Spare the rod, spoil the child.
 
 ::watches rod ready to strike::
 
 Spare the rod, spoil the child.
> 
> ::watches rod ready to strike::
> 
> Spare the rod, spoil the child.
> 
> ::watches rod ready to strike::
> 
> Spare the rod, spoil the child.
> 
> ::watches rod ready to strike::
> 
> Spare the rod, spoil the child.
> 
> ::watches with relief as upraised hand with rod is lowered to 
owner's side::
> 
> *************************
> It also suggests a third option to the rekindled question who Snape 
is
> really working for.  With Pettigrew, the answer is clear:  he's
> working to protect his own hide.  And if my view of Snape's
> motivations is correct, he is doing exactly the same thing.  Like
> Pettigrew, Snape is in position to end up on the winning team --
> regardless of which team it is.  Nobody *really* knows.  Except that
> Snape does it more deftly, more elegantly, than Pettigrew ever 
> could. Nevertheless, they seem to be well able to Look Out for No. 
> 1.

Their motivations seem (seem!) rather different, though.  As best we 
can tell, Snape joined the DEs willingly, and he's probably never 
lost some of the things that would have led him to go over there.  
Power, a desire to be bigger/more important/more powerful than he is, 
glory, etc.  Peter joined and betrayed largely out of fear, looking 
for security rather than advancement.  I think.

> So why do we, by and large, find Pettigrew repulsive while we lavish
> our fascination on Snape?  One difference is style.  As Pip so
> rightfully points out, our man Snape can *act*.  The other is 
> courage.  It takes an immense amount of courage, and a bit of 
> brinksmanship, to keep up the double agent game as Snape is doing.  
> Pettigrew, of course, has neither, a point which is hammered home 
> as he fails even to eavesdrop on a conversation without being 
> discovered, and much more powerfully when he refuses Snape's offer 
> to take on a more active task for Voldemort.

I think the other point of that scene is that Peter is not exactly 
terribly happy where he is.  Peter owes Harry a life-debt, too.  I 
doubt he likes being bossed around by Snape

> I think they were hanging out together to remind us that Snape and
> Wormtail will facing the same choices in Book 7.  Not to mention how
> much pleasure Snape must get out of tormenting one who once enjoyed
> Snape's humiliation so much that he nearly wet his pants.

*If* Snape is ESE, then Wormtail's literary chances for redemption go 
way up.  I admit I can't see book 7 passing without his debt for 
having been spared from the Furies being paid out somehow.

-Nora notes that ironic underestimation may well be Wormtail's 
perpetual theme





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 17:41:23 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:41:23 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review
In-Reply-To: <dbokhr+clfp@...>
Message-ID: <dbomo3+dv13@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" <fmaneely at b...> 
wrote:
> 
> IF SPACE
> IS A
> VACUUM,
> HOW 
> COME WE 
> AREN'T 
> SUCKED
> UPWARDS?
> > 
> > Ironically Harry thinks the HBP is not a bad person and HBP turns 
out 
> > to be Snape.... Think this may be a clue to Harry finally 
accepting 
> > Snape?  
> > 
>From Kneasy:
> This is one of the 'revelations' that I'm not too comfortable with.
> Harry believes it; not sure I do. Seems somewhat more than a little
> contrived.
 But Harry has always looked for reasons to justify his instinctive
> antipathy to Sevvy - and Sevvy has always co-operated by giving 
> him plenty of the justification Harry wants

Fran:
Being a former Snape hater, I like him alot better now and think he's 
on the good side. I may be fooled but I think killing/putting DD out 
of misery was very hard for Snape.  Harry will eventually accept 
Snape as ok, but he will buck the idea all the way.  Something was 
said in HPB about how hard it is to admit someone was right and you 
have deen dead wrong. I refer to Percy (the twit) not apologizing to 
his family. There was dialogue in the book. 

Kneasy:
>. This time it's different,
> Snape could always treat Harry's opinions with contempt, dismiss
> them as irrelevant, because he knew he'd be backed up by DD. Not
> this time. This time Harry is left with just his own very emotional
> responses, there is no authority figure telling him he's mistaken.

Fran one more time:
We know Harry is headed back to the Dursley's, but not back to 
Hogwarts.... I cannot see him skip the last year at school. Someone 
is going to intervene,  I just cant see Harry on the loose now, and 
wonder who will be able to knock some sense into him.  I understand 
the LOTR parallels, but Harry still needs to do some growing up and 
skill strengthening to do.  I am not ready to let go of Hogwarts yet, 
and still hope will be wandering thru the halls one last time!

Regards,
Fran





From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 17:50:14 2005
From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:50:14 -0000
Subject: Ships
In-Reply-To: <a636324605072107371b4c07d2@...>
Message-ID: <dbon8m+luns@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, JoAnna Wahlund 
<jrwahlund at g...> wrote:

> >  Spoil me not, 
> > 
> > Foul poster,
> > 
> > For I am not as 
> > 
> > Diligent as thee,
> > 
> > Fixating thine buttocks
> > 
> > To the Recliner of Sloth
> > 
> > Whilst engaging naught
> > 
> > But thine own hedonistic
> > 
> > Tendancies.
> > 
> > No, spoil me not, 
> > 
> > For, unlike you, 
> > 
> > I have a life.
> > 
> > 
> > Ships.
> > 
> 
> IMO, unless H/G & H/R end up married/engaged at the end of book 7, 
there's 
> still hope for H/H. How many people do you know who ended up 
marrying the 
> person they were dating at age seventeen?


Offhand, I can think of six (three couples).

Of course, anything can happen in the next book, but real-life 
examples are of limited use in anticipating an author's choices in 
her own fantasy universe.  I suspect she'll clear up any lingering 
questions on this topic in her (already written, but soon to be 
revised) final chapter/epilogue.

JoS., who just wishes the fans would stop hurling bile at the 
author.  She's been far nicer to us than most would be.





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 18:08:29 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:08:29 -0000
Subject: The Chain (was Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dboclb+83ok@...>
Message-ID: <dbooat+8537@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
IF 
SPACE
IS
A
VACUUM
I'D
LIKE
A
LITTLE
HELP
AROUND
THE 
HOUSE

Talisman, saying, how about that Percy-syndrome, huh?

Kneasy wrote:
>We've had the books with the teen crushes, the almost puppy-love 
>passions Hermy/Krum/Ron in GoF; Harry/Cho in OoP; more or less 
>everybody in HBP,but now comes the time of testing. As Lyn says, 
>it'll be loyalties strained and death doing the sundering and how 
>they all cope that'll be central to book 7. <snip> Get ready to 
>have your withers wrung.

Talisman:
No doubt.  I think the romance of Tonks and Lupin--especially in 
light of Rowling's remarks and Mrs. Weasleys observations about 
couples feeling the pressure to marry before the ax falls--is doomed.

Perhaps there will be a lovely double wedding at the beginning of 
Book 7, but I fear before the book's over Lupin will have taken his 
turn as courier, carrying a piece of LV's soul beyond the veil.

That, I think, is a part of being a member of the Order, not just 
the willingness to fight LV, nor even the willingness to face death 
in the battle, but an agreement--if necessary--to go out by friendly 
fire in order to transport another piece of LV soul.

That is why Mrs. Weasley is so agitated when Sirius tells Harry 
about the Order, and he wants to join.  

You may recall, it's not Mrs. Weasley who answers Harry, it's Lupin.

"No...The Order is comprised only of overage wizards," he 
said... "There are dangers of which you can have no idea, any of 
you..." (OoP 96)

He is saying this to a boy who has met the assembled DEs, who has 
already battled LV, a Basilisk, dementors, a troll, etc.  

There is something even more awful facing members of the OoP?  uh-
huh.

Also, regarding the perceived timeline problems with Snape and 
Trelawney's prophecy.  I think it's pretty clear that Snape was not 
an eavesdropper.  He was already a member of the OoP.  As double 
agent he only told LV part of the prophecy, because the Prophecy was 
used, repeatedly, to manipulate LV.

First Godric's Hollow, then the DoM.  Both were part of DD's plan.

Speaking of Godric's Hollow, it was not Snape's turning point.   He 
had already long since turned. 

The romance scene between Snape and Narcissa--which is obvious in 
the book--and predicted by moi--puts an end to LOLLIPOPS and all 
it's progeny.

Even I, who am more than willing to extol Snape's many charms, do 
not believe that all his major actions are the result of a *series* 
of love affairs.  Abandon the DEs for Lily and kill DD for Narcissa--
I don't think so.

Talisman, observing:  I can see you out there, with your fingers in 
your ears, saying la la la la la.


 








From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 18:22:48 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:22:48 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dboj0e+95ei@...>
Message-ID: <dbop5o+ntpc@...>

S was once 
a Spoiler Space
Spacey
Lacy
George and Gracie
In your Face-y
Spoiler Space


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:

> No, Draco's job was to kill Dumbledore, and Snape's vow was to
finish whatever Draco's job if he couldn't, or wouldn't. I didn't
quote 
all the dialogue that backs that up, but it is there.  Are you saying
Draco's mission was to fail at killing Dumbledore?

Pippin:
Narcissa says so.
"Then I am right, he has chosen Draco in revenge!" choked Narcissa.
"He does not mean him to succeed, he wants him to be killed trying!"

No doubt Draco thought his mission was to kill Dumbledore. Bella
says he is pleased at the chance to prove himself. But Narcissa says
that's because Draco is young and has no idea what is in store. 

Snape didn't promise to  carry out the mission as Draco defined it
but as the Dark Lord did, and Bella correctly pegged that as an out,
though not in the way that she meant it.

"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll _try_, I'm sure...The usual
empty words, the usual slithering out of action...oh, on the Dark 
Lord's orders, of course!"

and Snape's vow plays right into those words

"will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco
to perform?"


Jim:
> Pippin, are you a criminal defense attorney?  If they ever get me on
video doing someone in, I want you to defend me. You'll have a story
for me. Way to go! So, the potion killed him in between the time DD
 was blasted off the top of the Astronomy tower by the AK spell and
the time he hit the ground. Okay, the jury will go with that.
> 
> A Crucio curse and an AK aren't comparable.

Pippin:
I'm not a lawyer at all, thank you. Though it turns out I am descended
from nine generations of 'em back in the old country. Could be bad
blood <g>.

 We've had much debate on *why* those three curses are considered 
Unforgivable, when others could accomplish the same
ends. I think they are Unforgivable because their use unquestionably
establishes intent -- because they won't work properly
 if the caster doesn't really mean it. That's what Bella says, that
righteous anger isn't  enough, that Harry has to really want to hurt
her, to enjoy her pain.

When have we ever seen canon that AK is binary? In
fact we have canon that it isn't. When it hit Harry, it didn't kill
him, /gave him that scar/, rebounded, ripped Voldemort from his body, 
and then, apparently, destroyed the house.

Jim:
Doing what you say Snape did seems like shooting someone with a 
bazooka but not really meaning it.  

Pippin:
But magic isn't like a bazooka.  No bazooka ever cared whether you
really meant it or not. But the spellcaster's intent is essential to
certain spells; patronus for example. Harry knew he couldn't do it 
properly as long as he wanted to hear his parents' voices. 

And wouldn't it be the proof that Snape really had reformed, that
he was no longer capable of using the AK spell?

Pippin
who thinks that Dumbledore would see himself handing socks out to
free the Hogwarts Elves, while his three faithful servants receive
the Order of Merlin First Class: Harry Potter, Percy Weasley, and 
Severus Snape.





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 18:27:40 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:27:40 -0000
Subject: The Chain (was Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbooat+8537@...>
Message-ID: <dbopes+njpg@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" 
<talisman22457 at y...> wrote:
IF
SPACE
IS
A 
VACUUM
IS
THE
EARTH
A
DUST
BUNNY
?
 In reference to what I wrote in the last post:

>...part of being a member of the Order, not just the willingness to 
>fight LV, nor even the willingness to face death in the battle, but 
>an agreement--if necessary--to go out by friendly fire in order to 
>transport another piece of LV soul.

I would add: 

Or, much *much* worse, be asked to send a friend.

T







From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 18:34:33 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:34:33 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dboj0e+95ei@...>
Message-ID: <dboprp+6qe7@...>

J
K
R
H
A
S
A
L
O
T
O
F
M
O
N
E
Y
A
N
D
N
I
C
E
H
A
I
R

Pippin: "Sure -- but Draco didn't *try* to kill Dumbledore. He lowered

> his wand. Snape tried, thus carrying out the deed Draco failed to
> perform, the one he was ordered to do, and also failed to kill him.
> Mischief managed. Snape made much of the fact that the Dark Lord
> _didn't _ expect Draco to succeed. And Narcissa agreed. So Snape did
> just _exactly_ what the Dark Lord had ordered Draco to do."

Jim said:

> No, Draco's job was to kill Dumbledore, and Snape's vow was to
finish
> whatever Draco's job if he couldn't, or wouldn't. I didn't quote all
> the dialogue that backs that up, but it is there.  Are you saying
> Draco's mission was to fail at killing Dumbledore?

Diving in here, and probably repeating something already said...

If I were Voldemort, I would not choose a schoolboy to kill a wizard 
as powerful as Dumbledore - the chance of failure would be too high. 
The purpose of choosing Draco must have been to get Snape to kill 
Dumbledore, by using Narcissa to bind Snape into an Unbreakable Vow.  

It's clear Draco was told to kill Dumbledore and that Dumbledore knew 
he was trying to do that, but the Spinner's End episode suggests
Snape 
*thought* Draco's task was to kill Harry.  During the vow ceremony, 
Narcissa asks "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has 
ordered Draco to perform?" not "will you kill Dumbledore if Draco 
fails?"  It's not clear that their perception of the deed is the
same. 

Earlier in that episode, Snape says, "in the unlikely event that
Draco 
succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, 
fulfilling my useful role as spy."  If Draco killed Dumbledore, why 
would Snape assume he would need to continue spying on him?  However, 
if Draco killed Harry, the statement would make more sense.

Now, why did Snape kill Dumbledore?  Was he inadvertently bound to
the 
spirit of the Unbreakable Vow, thus forced to kill Dumbledore when 
Draco had apparently failed?  Did he just AK Dumbledore en route to 
what he perceived as the deed, to give Draco a better chance of 
killing Harry?  Or was he forced to kill Dumbledore on Dumbledore's 
non-vocal instructions or through some past Unbreakable Vow?

The other side of the coin is why Snape didn't kill Harry when he had 
the chance.  Did he think he was protecting Draco and the Malfoys, 
because he thought Draco was charged with killing Harry and had to be 
given a chance to do it?  Or, to the same end, was he under the 
influence of what he *thought* were the terms of the Unbreakable Vow? 
Or was he still doing Dumbledore's bidding, i.e. to protect Harry at 
all costs? 

Okay, I think I've confused myself now, but Snape either thinks he's 
done the "deed" (topped Dumbledore) or thinks he has a shot at Harry 
if Draco fails to kill the Chosen One.  Or, he reluctantly killed 
Dumbledore and is perhaps no longer bound to protect Harry, but 
perhaps is.  Or something.

Neil












From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 18:34:32 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:34:32 -0000
Subject: It's That Man Again: issues of trust  (was: Re: My HBP Review )
In-Reply-To: <dbnl6r+45or@...>
Message-ID: <dbopro+4ki5@...>

A hag goes into an apothecary's

Hag : Hello, I'd like a pound of liver, please.
Apothecary : That'll be 16 galleons, please.
Hag : 16 galleons?! That's outrageous! What kind of liver is it?
Apothecary : Dragon's liver.
Hag : Oh! I don't want Dragon's liver, no no. Pig's liver.
Apothecary : Pig's liver?! This is an Apothecary's, we don't sell 
pig's liver!
Hag : Oh. (pause) I'm terribly sorry, my mistake.
EXIT HAG

The next day, the hag comes back.
Hag : Hello, I'd like a pound of pig's liver, please.
Apothecary : Look, I told you yesterday, we don't sell Pig's liver! 
This is an Apothecary's!
Hag : Oh. (pause) I'm terribly sorry.
EXIT HAG

The next day, the hag comes back again.
Hag : Hello, I'd like a pound of pig's liver, please.
Apothecary : Look, if you come back in here one more time asking me 
for bloody pig's liver, I'm gonna nail your feet to the floor!
Hag : Terribly sorry...
EXIT HAG BACKWARDS, NERVOUSLY

The next day, the hag comes back again.
Hag : Hello, have you got any nails?
Apothecary : No I bloody haven't! 
Hag : Oh, well I'll have a pound of pig's liver then.

SPOILER SPACE ENDS

 
> Eloise:
> Just a thought from one furiously grasping at straws (part 2 of 
the Leaky interview has done nothing to raise my spirits)....
> 
<snip> 

> One of the things I find most disturbing about all this is what 
she said herself about DD being too willing to trust in the Leaky 
interview.
> 
Dungrollin:
No no no.  This is what happened (from mugglenet/leaky interview 
part 1):

ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems 
trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

JKR: [Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.

That doesn't mean that Dumbledore *is* reckless in his trust, it 
just means that she agrees he sometimes *seems* that way. And even 
if DD has been reckless, it doesn't mean it won't pay off in the end.


Eloise:
> Part of my reasoning for thinking that Snape *must* be on the 
right side was precisely the fact that Dumbledore has emphasised his 
trust in him so much (and note, he *didn't* trust TR, so it's not an 
> indiscriminate trust). Now I know JKR isn't primarily writing a 
series invested with deliberate messages addressed to young people, 
but there *are* issues she directly addresses. To go through an 
entire series depicting someone as incredibly wise and then to say 
in the end that through *trust* he made this gigantic error which 
nearly cost the entire WW just seems to be such a negative message. 
There is far too little trust in this world already. Is Mad Eye 
Moody's policy of trusting no-one really the model we she thinks we 
should adopt?
> 

Dungrollin:
I agree, wholeheartedly. It would be rubbish. And DD still refused 
to tell Harry why he trusted Snape (chapter 25, The Seer Overheard). 
I can think of only two reasons why. Either it was something 
intensely personal to Snape that he didn't want anybody else to know 
(and we are dragged, kicking and screaming towards LOLLIPOPS), or it 
was something so absolutely confirmatory of Snape's loyalty to DD 
that to tell anyone would risk it getting back to the DEs. If DD 
thought that Snape might be put in a position where he had to appear 
to be loyal to Voldy, and after which DD might not be around to 
vouch for him to the other Order members, he might not have been too 
inclined to share it just then. If the Order continued to trust 
Snape after he's bumped off DD, Voldy would certainly smell a rat. 

Snape's gone back to Voldy to fulfil one final task for DD, 
something that can only be done from within the DE's circle. As far 
as I can see, HBP gave us no clue as to whether DD had told him 
about the hors-d'oeuvres, though I suppose it's possible if Snape 
saved DD after the hand incident, so it could be to do with them. 

(By the way, that injury was caused by the protective spells around 
the ring at the Gaunt House, wasn't it? Rather than by its 
destruction, which happened later. So it's also possible DD didn't 
tell Snape where he'd been, or what he'd been up to.)

Or, it could simply be to have somebody there right at the end, who 
can tip the scales in Harry's favour.  I'd like to think DD and 
Snape are better planners than that though. 

It could be to continue passing information - Snape might be able to 
convince the Order with a patronus message, though I doubt it.

The big question for me, is how he's going to get Draco out of 
trouble with Voldy without making Voldy too cross. That damn vow 
means that if Voldy kills Draco (which was the price of failure as I 
understood it) then Snape's dead too.  Perhaps the kudos awarded by 
murdering DD would allow Snape to ask Voldy a favour, or perhaps 
since Voldy undoubtedly knows about the vow from Bella, Voldy's 
really not so stupid as to kill off the only competent member of 
staff he's got.

He's *not* ESE. It would be rubbish. Have a badge.
D.E.L.U.S.I.O.N.A.L.
(Death Eaters Laughably Unsuspicious, Snape Is Obviously Not A Louse)

Dungrollin





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 18:53:38 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:53:38 -0000
Subject: The Chain (was Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbooat+8537@...>
Message-ID: <dboqvi+dt65@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> wrote:
Space,
What  
Every
House
Doesn't
Have 
Enough
Of.
Try 
Relocating
Vertically.


> No doubt.  I think the romance of Tonks and Lupin--especially in 
> light of Rowling's remarks and Mrs. Weasleys observations about 
> couples feeling the pressure to marry before the ax falls--is doomed.
> 
> Perhaps there will be a lovely double wedding at the beginning of 
> Book 7, but I fear before the book's over Lupin will have taken his 
> turn as courier, carrying a piece of LV's soul beyond the veil.
> 

Which one?
There's HH's cup, probably GG's sword and RR's wand. Maybe Harry.
Some think Nagini, but I  doubt it, it's physically too close to Voldy,
might as well have the Horseclucks in his pocket. The locket is a
yes/no/maybe.

Ah! In mythology Fenris wolf gets killed by having a sword thrust 
down his throat.  As a Gryff in good standing Lupin might qualify
as a potential wielder. Send him through the veil choking on his own
blood, Lupin broken and bleeding on the Death Chamber floor.
Works for me.

> 
> Also, regarding the perceived timeline problems with Snape and 
> Trelawney's prophecy.  I think it's pretty clear that Snape was not 
> an eavesdropper.  He was already a member of the OoP.  As double 
> agent he only told LV part of the prophecy, because the Prophecy was 
> used, repeatedly, to manipulate LV.
> 
> First Godric's Hollow, then the DoM.  Both were part of DD's plan.
> 
> Speaking of Godric's Hollow, it was not Snape's turning point.   He 
> had already long since turned. 
> 

Oh, agreed.
He'd have to have done, otherwise Blackwidower!Snape and Snapes!Son
are a frost. And I've a soft spot for those two.


> The romance scene between Snape and Narcissa--which is obvious in 
> the book--and predicted by moi--puts an end to LOLLIPOPS and all 
> it's progeny.
> 
> Even I, who am more than willing to extol Snape's many charms, do 
> not believe that all his major actions are the result of a *series* 
> of love affairs.  Abandon the DEs for Lily and kill DD for Narcissa--
> I don't think so.
> 

Again, agreed.
It was Lily that fancied Snape.
Yes, I can easily imagine a poverty-stricken ugly duckling worshipping
the ethereal pure-blood beauty, thrusting out his pigeon-chest, yellow
teeth a-gleam every  time they passed in the corridor. Now comes his
chance  to play the knight-errant, at long last. With her old man banged
up in chokey, too. Ooh! Lucky Sevvy! Is he a gentleman, do you think?
Too noble to take advantage?
Strangely, I think he is.

Kneasy






From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 19:07:33 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:07:33 -0000
Subject: Interpretation question
Message-ID: <dborpl+oqp6@...>



OK below is an excerpt from that interview and I'm wondering if 
others read it as I do? Specifically that Lily did not expect her 
death to protect Harry, to all intents she died, in her expectation, 
pointlessly?

Regards
Jo

ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why 
did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually 
have let her live?
JKR: Mmhm.
ES: Why?
JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely 
right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect 
Lily and Harry? There's your answer, you've just answered your own 
question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was 
going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying 
James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he 
was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a 
choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there 
are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the 
caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher 
because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal 
mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage 
too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James 
wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You 
would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were 
told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I 
don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does 
that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had 
a clear choice -
ES: And James didn't.
JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given 
a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly 
more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in 
front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it 
never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, 
therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave 
someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular 
way






From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 19:52:20 2005
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:52:20 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
Message-ID: <dboudk+hk16@...>

Tinker
Tailor
Soldier 
Sailor
Rich man 
Poor man 
Beggarman
SPY!

Thanks to Dungrollin for comfort, :-)  but I had another thought this 
afternoon.

I don't like it.

OK. Posit for just a teeny moment that our Severus *is* ESE. (Don't 
laugh, you Snape revilers!) Now, what's given me pause for thought is 
that there have been times when Snape could have let harm come to 
Harry but he's deliberately intervened. Why should he do that? Why 
not let him fall off his broomstick? Why not let him go wandering 
round Hogsemeade when (apparently) a murderous Sirius is looking for 
him?

This *does* make some sense if we assume that Snape is a real 
Slytherin, whose concern is only for himself. Assume (as Sirius said 
of Pettigrew) he just aligns himself with the biggest bully in the 
playground and that, as he tells Bella, he *did* believe Voldemort 
dead, or at least out of action for the forseeable future, then what 
was the harm in aligning himself with Dumbledore, even to the extent 
of protecting Dumbledore's favourite from harm?

Then the golden opportunity came. Dumbledore sent him back to spy on 
Voldemort. He abides his time. Voldemort has been in no hurry to 
escalate the war, so he can carry on, as he thinks convincing 
Dumbledore more and more of his usefulness and loyalty.

Dumbledore, however, knows more than Snape thinks. He knows that he's 
not really on his side; he knows of the plot on his life. Dumbledore 
has a plan, which involves the sacrifice of his own life, an event 
(his death at least) virtually forshadowed in CAPSLOCK, but Snape is 
*not* in on it.

So by the time we get to the Lightning Struck Tower, we have a 
Dumbledore prepared, willing, wanting even, to be killed and a Snape 
who has taken an Unbreakable Vow to do the deed if Draco fails. 
Dumbledore manipulates the situation as we see: he makes sure Snape 
is summoned; he gives Draco time to back down; oh so politely (as we 
see him speak to the Dursleys) he commands Snape to do what he must 
do if he does not want to die himself. 

And in that moment, Snape knows. It's the fulfilment of the curse on 
his particular year as DADA teacher - he must do the deed that 
somehow sets into motion an ancient magic which ensures that 
Dumbledore, though dead, will never truly leave those who need him. 
He's been tricked, he's been manipulated into doing what Dumbledore 
wants. Dumbledore has won and he hates him for it.

I think this pretty well fulfils the criteria that JKR outlined in 
the Leaky interview. She didn't want to shut down enquiry along the 
line of DD's death being planned, however she was also implicitly 
dismissive of the idea that Snape's not evil and it was a conspiracy 
between them.
 
Talk me out of it, someone.

~Eloise
Whose final straw is the unrevealed proof of loyalty.





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 19:53:29 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:53:29 -0000
Subject: OT: following todays events in London
Message-ID: <dboufp+sgi2@...>

I received an email from my nephew today that I would to pass on to 
everyone.  This applies  to all, no matter what country you hail 
from.  Terrorism is not going away, and I pray no harm comes to any 
of you .  We have had one poster affected, and the frequency of 
attacks could mean more!  I really amfondof this group, so please 
read the following:

Subject: In Case of  Emergency (ICE)

The London incident has  promoted concerns and I share with
you what one of my European colleagues  just sent. As long as
everyone knows what ICE stands for, it is not a bad  idea.
A useful thing to add to your mobile address book!

It was  thought up by an ambulance man/paramedic who found
that when they went to the  scenes of accidents there were
always mobile phones but they didn?t know  which numbers to
call and he thought that it would be a good idea if  there
was a nationally recognized name to file "next of  kin"
under.

Following the disaster in London. . . East  Anglian
Ambulance Service have launched a national "In case of
Emergency  (ICE)" campaign with the support of Falkland?s war
hero Simon  Weston.

The idea is that you store the word " I C E " in your  mobile
phone Address
book, and against it enter the number of the person  you
would want to be
contacted "In Case of Emergency".

In an  emergency situation ambulance and hospital staff will
then be able to quickly  find out who your next of kin are
and be able to contact them. It?s so simple  that everyone
can do it. Please do.  For more than one contact name ICE1, ICE2, 
ICE3  etc

Please will you also email this to  everybody in your address
book, it won?t take too many 'forwards' before  everybody
will know about this. It really could save your life, or put
a loved one's mind at rest.

Best regards,
Fran






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 20:04:23 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:04:23 -0000
Subject: Interpretation question
In-Reply-To: <dborpl+oqp6@...>
Message-ID: <dbov47+73vh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> OK below is an excerpt from that interview and I'm wondering if 
> others read it as I do? Specifically that Lily did not expect her 
> death to protect Harry, to all intents she died, in her 
expectation, 
> pointlessly?
> 
> Regards
> Jo
> 
Oh I agree wholeheartedly!  Especially on this point of the interview:
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in
front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it
never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one,
therefore, knew that could happen.

No one knew it could happen! Enough said. IIRC, which is not 
often,<g> there were many posts stating Lily put a protection charm 
on Harry. It was simply her sacrifice, when given a choice of life, 
that set off the protection. I think that was the ancient magic, LV 
and DD have referred to in the other books.

Regards,
Fran







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 20:33:15 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:33:15 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
In-Reply-To: <dboudk+hk16@...>
Message-ID: <dbp0qb+5ka8@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson" <eloiseherisson at a...> wrote:
Space,
Pressure
0 lb/sq.in.
Earth
Pressure
15 lb/sq.in
Why
Dont 
They
Even
Out 
At 7.5 lb/sq.in?

> 
> OK. Posit for just a teeny moment that our Severus *is* ESE. (Don't 
> laugh, you Snape revilers!) Now, what's given me pause for thought is 
> that there have been times when Snape could have let harm come to 
> Harry but he's deliberately intervened. Why should he do that? Why 
> not let him fall off his broomstick? Why not let him go wandering 
> round Hogsemeade when (apparently) a murderous Sirius is looking for 
> him?
> 
> This *does* make some sense if we assume that Snape is a real 
> Slytherin, whose concern is only for himself. Assume (as Sirius said 
> of Pettigrew) he just aligns himself with the biggest bully in the 
> playground and that, as he tells Bella, he *did* believe Voldemort 
> dead, or at least out of action for the forseeable future, then what 
> was the harm in aligning himself with Dumbledore, even to the extent 
> of protecting Dumbledore's favourite from harm?
>

Courage Camille!
This cannot be!
Recall that when Snape joined DD, Voldy was winning. More or less
hands down. If it hadn't been for GH Voldy would have won. Aurors
were being killed at Voldy's whim, the populace panicking. The WW
would have caved in. Oh, DD and a handful of others may have carried
on fighting, but they'd have been largely irrelevant in the larger scheme
of things. 

Why would Snape join the losing side, or even pretend to?

 
> 
> So by the time we get to the Lightning Struck Tower, we have a 
> Dumbledore prepared, willing, wanting even, to be killed and a Snape 
> who has taken an Unbreakable Vow to do the deed if Draco fails. 
> Dumbledore manipulates the situation as we see: he makes sure Snape 
> is summoned; he gives Draco time to back down; oh so politely (as we 
> see him speak to the Dursleys) he commands Snape to do what he must 
> do if he does not want to die himself. 
> 
> And in that moment, Snape knows. It's the fulfilment of the curse on 
> his particular year as DADA teacher - he must do the deed that 
> somehow sets into motion an ancient magic which ensures that 
> Dumbledore, though dead, will never truly leave those who need him. 
> He's been tricked, he's been manipulated into doing what Dumbledore 
> wants. Dumbledore has won and he hates him for it.
> 

I have a somewhat different take on this.
DD knows Draino is after him.
Who told him?
Snape.
DD also knows that he's playing with fire, messing around with Voldy
Horseclucks. He got his fingers burned once already - so badly it
doesn't seem curable.
Now he's sloshed down a few gallons of another Voldy nasty. It's so
bad than even while drinking it he asks *Harry* to kill him. It's bad.
Any drinker is probably destined to end up as a super-zombie in the
pond as minimum. 

He gets back to the castle calling for Snape. Why? Because this was 
foreseen, a possible ouutcome of messing with Dark Magic. And Snape
has been persuaded, coerced into promising to administer the coup de 
grace to prevent DD having a 'fate worse than death'. Familiar phrase?
Fulfilling the Unbreakable Curse is merely serendipitous. The great danger 
is if DD *doesn't* die but perhaps ends in thrall to Voldy.

It's a terrible burden to place on a friend, yet Snape does it. He fulfills DD's
wishes. No  wonder he goes ballistic when Harry  calls him a coward. 

Kneasy





From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 20:37:20 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:37:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: (Another) Interpretation question
In-Reply-To: <dbov47+73vh@...>
Message-ID: <20050721203720.82603.qmail@...>



--- fhmaneely <fmaneely at ...> wrote:

> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > OK below is an excerpt from that interview and I'm wondering if 
> > others read it as I do? Specifically that Lily did not expect her 
> > death to protect Harry, to all intents she died, in her 
> expectation, 
> > pointlessly?
> > 
> > Regards
> > Jo
> > 
> Oh I agree wholeheartedly!  Especially on this point of the interview:
> MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in
> front of Harry?
> JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it
> never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one,
> therefore, knew that could happen.
> 
> No one knew it could happen! Enough said. IIRC, which is not 
> often,<g> there were many posts stating Lily put a protection charm 
> on Harry. It was simply her sacrifice, when given a choice of life, 
> that set off the protection. I think that was the ancient magic, LV 
> and DD have referred to in the other books.
> 
> Regards,
> Fran


The other thing about this I would like to know is a possible discrepancy, and its possible
meaning.

Originally, during his explanation to Harry at the end of OoP, it sounds as though, whilst Harry
is actually physically at Privet Drive, he can't be harmed.  JKR is very careful to twice use the
word "there" - 

"While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, *there* you cannot be
touched or harmed by Voldemort....You need return there only once a year, but as long as you can
still call it home, whilst you are *there* he cannot hurt you."

I noticed that at the time, and assumed that Harry was safe whilst physically there, from
Voldemort at least.  However, at the beginning of HBP, it seems this protection is much more
far-reaching:

" The magic I evoked fifteen years ago means that Harry has powerful protection while he can still
call this house home....This magic will cease to operate the moment that Harry turns seventeen; 
in other words, the moment he becomes a man.  I ask only this: that you allow Harry to return,
once more, to this house, before his seventeenth birthday, which will ensure that the protection
continues until that time."

So, I always assumed that one of the reasons Harry was made to live with the Dursleys until the
age of 11 was because the only place he couldn't be harmed was his aunt's house.  But the
implication of the above is that the protection continues for as long as he is a minor *wherever
he is*.    Does this mean that all the times Harry has been in danger over the previous 6 books,
Dumbledore knew that this protection would ensure that Harry would never be in *mortal* danger? 
Does the protection apply only when it is Voldemort attempting to harm Harry?  

Why is Dumbledore saying one thing at the end of OoP, and then at the beginning of HBP, a mere few
weeks later, is saying something completely different?

Catherine

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 20:39:06 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:39:06 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
In-Reply-To: <dboudk+hk16@...>
Message-ID: <dbp15a+g3g4@...>

Tinker
Tailor
Soldier 
Sailor
Rich man 
Poor man 
Beggarman
SPY!

Eloise wrote:
> Thanks to Dungrollin for comfort, :-)  but I had another thought 
this afternoon.
> 
> I don't like it.
> 
> OK. Posit for just a teeny moment that our Severus *is* ESE. 
(Don't laugh, you Snape revilers!) Now, what's given me pause for 
thought is that there have been times when Snape could have let harm 
come to Harry but he's deliberately intervened. Why should he do 
that? Why not let him fall off his broomstick? Why not let him go 
wandering round Hogsemeade when (apparently) a murderous Sirius is 
looking for him?
> 
> This *does* make some sense if we assume that Snape is a real 
> Slytherin, whose concern is only for himself. Assume (as Sirius 
said of Pettigrew) he just aligns himself with the biggest bully in 
the playground and that, as he tells Bella, he *did* believe 
Voldemort dead, or at least out of action for the forseeable future, 
then what was the harm in aligning himself with Dumbledore, even to 
the extent of protecting Dumbledore's favourite from harm?
> 
> Then the golden opportunity came. Dumbledore sent him back to spy 
on Voldemort. He abides his time. Voldemort has been in no hurry to 
> escalate the war, so he can carry on, as he thinks convincing 
> Dumbledore more and more of his usefulness and loyalty.
> 
<snipped>

Dungrollin:
What doesn't make sense is why he should have alerted the Order when 
he realised that Harry hadn't come back from the forest at the end 
of OotP. And Voldy obviously still doesn't know it was Snape's fault 
the order turned up, because that fiasco was blamed on Lucius and 
Bella.


> ~Eloise
> Whose final straw is the unrevealed proof of loyalty.

Dungrollin:
A very clever person (Cara) pointed out on HPfGU
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/133900
That Phineas Nigellus appears to know why DD trusted Snape.

HBP, chapter 17, A Sluggish Memory (p336, UK)
"I have been tolerant enough to answer that question already,"
said Dumbledore, but he did not sound very tolerant any more. "My
answer has not changed."
"I should think not," said a snide voice; Phineas Nigellus was
evidently only pretending to be asleep. Dumbledore ignored him.

And then pointed out that Phineas has a portrait in 12GP, apparently 
where Harry will be going at some point, since he owns it. Which 
would enable us to find out the secret pretty quickly.

Will 12GP still be OotP HQ if Snape can now reveal the whereabouts 
to Voldemort? Will Snape have got there first, and pinched Phineas's 
painting? 

Dungrollin
Eyeing a big box of DELUSIONAL badges, and staring pointedly at the 
posters she *knows* agree with her...






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 20:47:28 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:47:28 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
In-Reply-To: <dboudk+hk16@...>
Message-ID: <dbp1l0+bvo0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson"
<eloiseherisson at a...> wrote:
Tinker
Tailor
Soldier 
Sailor
Rich man 
Poor man 
Beggarman
SPY!

> Dumbledore, however, knows more than Snape thinks. He knows that
he's  not really on his side; he knows of the plot on his life.
Dumbledore  has a plan, which involves the sacrifice of his own life,
an event  (his death at least) virtually forshadowed in CAPSLOCK, but
Snape is  *not* in on it.

Pippin:
Of course Dumbledore knew he was going to die. Everyone dies. But
I don't think Rowling believes suicide is honorable, so I
wonder if  she would show us Dumbledore doing that. There's a
difference between going into battle knowing you
might die, and going into battle intending to. 

 I think this is reinforced by Jo's insistence that Lily did not
_know_ that she would be able to save Harry by dying herself. So
why did she do it? More, apparently, than just motherlove.

I just had a brainflash...what if Voldemort
intended to make Harry's dead body a horsepox? And Lily knew it?

That's why she said, not Harry, take me! That she'd do anything. But 
Voldemort wasn't interested in her -- the body of a lowly Muggleborn 
wasn't worthy, but the body of The Chosen One -- well, I just think
that would appeal to his twisted sensibilities, don't you? Stand
aside, you silly girl --- yeah, this really appeals to me. 

So Voldemort offs Lily, then AK's Harry intending to make his body a 
receptacle for his soul -- and he does, which explains the scar
connection, but Harry, thanks to Lily's sacrifice, doesn't die. So
only the scar needs to be destroyed, and that, I think, can be done,
despite Dumbledore saying that Harry will have that scar forever.
He is sometimes wrong, you know. From time to time.

And I just don't believe that Dumbledore would repeatedly insist 
to Harry that he trusted Snape if he  didn't. And he doesn't trust
everybody, we know that. 

(Yes, his great weakness is that he sometimes trusts blindly, but
c'mon, would you trust Snape blindly? Lupin, OTOH....)


I don't read her as implicitly dismissive of the idea that Snape's
not evil, just of the idea that the drama on the tower was something 
Snape and Dumbledore cooked up between them. I think she laid very 
heavy stress on the fact that she couldn't answer the is Snape evil 
question, that this was the focus of the next book and anything she
said would be a spoiler. 

Pippin





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 21:21:49 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:21:49 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
In-Reply-To: <dbp15a+g3g4@...>
Message-ID: <dbp3ld+fouo@...>

 
> Dungrollin
> Eyeing a big box of DELUSIONAL badges, and staring pointedly at the 
> posters she *knows* agree with her...

Potioncat:
I'll take one of those and wear it proudly!

Ok, let's go to a movie...a good old fashioned John Wayne war 
movie...no maybe someone more recent, but I don't know who...


"Men, our mission is to blow up the bridge before the enemy gets 
here. If they cross the river thousands of innocent citizens will be 
killed and all our troops will be in more danger.  At all costs, we 
must blow up the bridge!"

Yada Yada Yada

The explosives are set. All is ready. The junior members of the team 
have started back and only a few details are left to do. Then the 
enemy shows up and the commander is stuck. (he's injured, his tie is 
caught in the machine, I don't know) He can't get off the bridge! But 
he has his walkie talkie and he orders his XO to blow up the bridge.  

So the XO does.


Add to that if a very junior member of the team had tried harder to 
get that memory, they wouldn't have had to cut it so tight and the 
commander might not have been stuck on the bridge.


That's what happened I think. DD wasn't planning to die when he left 
that evening, but he was willing to. If he had gotten safely to Snape 
in time, he might have made it. 

If they had gotten to all the Horseheads in time, they might have 
gotten LV and nixed the UV entirely. That's why Snape was getting in 
Draco's way all year. Putting Draco's lookouts in detention. He was 
hoping not to have to carry it out.

It wasn't till near the end that it was looking more and more likely 
that Snape would have to kill him. Just like Lily put herself in the 
way, that's what DD has done. This way Snape can keep working for the 
Order...or at least work for himself against LV.

And I sure hope that new member of the OoP that we're going to meet 
knows the truth about Snape!! No one else seems to.


Kathy W (no, I don't really write movie scripts.)










From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 21:30:23 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:30:23 -0000
Subject: My HBP Review (the Snape part, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbok1e+38vc@...>
Message-ID: <dbp45f+ci87@...>

Spoiler, nothing more than spoilers,
spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers
It's spoilers that I love.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E
> >

Nora:
> 
> On the physical aspect: we've seen a spider just keel over.  We 
> didn't see Cedric die (IIRC, right?).  So we haven't really seen 
> people being AKed in canon.  We did, however, see an intercepted 
> AK blast the crap out of things in the Ministry battle.  I don't 
> see how AK expressing force is particularly shocking or even 
> abnormal, given that latter.  But maybe I'm just rationalizing 
away valuable clues. :)
> 

Pip!Squeak:

AK's in canon.

The Riddles: 'Lying there with their eyes wide open.'

Frank Bryce: 'There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and 
Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor' [GoF, 
Ch.1]

The Spider: 'rolled over onto its back, unmarked, but unmistakeably 
dead.' [GoF Ch. 14]

Cedric: 'he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside 
him...Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him.'[GoF, 
Ch. 32]

Sirius (if that *was* an AK): 'his body curved in a graceful arc as 
he sank backwards through the ragged veil...' [OOP, Ch.35]

Fawkes: 'swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame 
and fell to the floor...' [OOP, Ch. 36]. Bursting into flame is a 
natural characteristic of phoenixes, of course {g}

Nobody *who dies* is blasted off their feet by the AK. They 
drop/fall where they're standing/flying.


When do things explode?

The AK that hits Harry apparently causes an explosion (PS/SS). It 
failed to kill Harry.

In the MOM, OOP Ch. 36, the AK bounces off the golden statue. The AK 
which misses Dumbledore but hits a desk causes the desk to burst 
into flame (ie it kills it), but the desk doesn't move. The AK that 
hits the centaur shatters it into 'a hundred pieces' - but again, 
there's no mention of the centaur being moved by the spell. It's 
just destroyed. There's an increasing level of destruction here, 
that suggest Voldemort is getting more and more focused on killing 
DD - but still, nothing is blasted from its place.


JKR is pretty consistent in her AK's. Except the one that hits 
Dumbledore. When AK'd, you remain stationary, and die. Drop to the 
floor, roll on your back, shatter into pieces - but what you don't 
do in canon is get blasted into the air. 

Two possibilities. A failed AK doesn't have the same characteristics 
as a successful one. Since the only failed AK we know of (Harry) 
seems to have blown the house up - that might be it. Failed AK's 
have to do something with all that magic energy - and Dumbledore was 
blasted into the air, falling over the battlements because he was 
too weak to control the fall (like an unconscious quidditch player?).

Second possibility. It wasn't an AK.

Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape








From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 21:37:09 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:37:09 -0000
Subject: The Chain, cont.
Message-ID: <dbp4i5+dih8@...>

A TISKET 
A TASKET
A LETTER 
IN A BASKET
A PROMISE TO 
EXPLAIN IT ALL
POSTPONING IT 
UNTIL THE... 
FALL
 
Talisman, hoping that Londoners in the group will find alternative 
transportation, or at least arrange to take the subway during off-
peak times.

Snape knows all about Horcruxes.  If Regulus did, Snape did--way 
back at the beginning. He is a likely source of DD's information in 
this regard. He healed DD and he is clearly a part of The Chain.

 Moreover, at least one, probably several, other members of the 
Order know about the Chain, and even if they didn't know that DD was 
the next courier, they will recognize what happened.

Lupin knows, at the very least.
Lupin knew what was going to happen  to Sirius in the DoM, and he 
knows what happened to DD on the ramparts. 

And ,whoever is slated to off  Snape knows, if that's not Lupin, 
though I rather think it is.

Harry isn't informed because, while he needs to understand about 
LV's Horcruxes generally, he is not capable of dealing with the 
truth about the need for people he loves to die.  He would find it 
very hard to go on hunting Horcruxes if he did.

Before the end, Rowling will explain more on how the fact that Harry-
-who had as awful a childhood as LV--can love is some sort of 
countercharm to the psychopathic lovelessness of LV.  

Her power of love thing, residing in Harry's "pure" blood, plus 
whatever LV put in him at GH, all linked to the chain of couriers by 
the emotion he feels for them, is what binds the whole mojo together.

That's why DD keeps nattering on about the value of Harry's blood.

And that's why Harry will love Snape before Book 7 is over.

How it will be effected, and whether before or after Snape's death, 
remains to be seen.

But there are plenty of avenues.  Perhaps DD will leave Harry his 
Pensieve (Because, unless DD sat down with McGonagall and had a very 
stern talk, she'll just be in the way.  "Get out of here Potter, it 
doesn't concern you.") 

As Kneasy pointed out, it's easy enough to download  everything you 
want Harry to know into those handy little memory bottles.

Portraits ( Phineas can be helpful, but Harry doesn't have eough of 
a relationship with him to toss aside 6 Books worth of hating Snape, 
not to mention watching Snape AK DD, over anything Phineas could 
say.),  Pensieves, the magical mirror that Sirius left.  

Yeah, we know that Sirius's mirrors still have to come into play--
how better than for Harry to find out about Snape than via Sirius--
who traveled to the future before he died (knowing he would die) and 
left a mirror message that will reach Harry, as soon as he catches 
up with it?  Fanciful, but I like it. 

It would not be beyond JKR to toss in a new magical item, if she 
needed it. : P 

Who knows what Harry will find when he gets to GP next summer.  

We didn't get a train ride home, and, in sort of a balance,  we'll 
spend a lot of time with Harry in the summer next year.

The return to PD.  Well, if that touted protective charm is *ever* 
going to be used, there better be an attack at Number 4, and before 
July 31, to boot.

The end story for Petunia and Vernon, whose comeuppance is 
scheduled.  A bit more for Dudley, who discloses his dementor 
experience,  starts to see the light, and  finds he is a bit magic, 
too.

Things will have to happen quickly, because Harry isn't hanging 
around long.

Then there is the wedding business.   
Percy, who really is a shit, might feel enough remorse over Bill's 
near call to eat crow and come to the wedding. But he's still a shit.

And then, lots of lovely time at GP looking for the locket and 
chatting with his Order friends.

Aberforth will be the character that we know of, but haven't really 
met yet.

Fawkes will return to brighten a  trying hour. Wormtail pays up--and 
bites the dust.  

We'll see the film of GH, with lovely surprises.. 

I have a feeling we will make it back to Hogwarts, if for nothing 
else, for the TR trophy/Hufflepuff cup.

But I expect for classes, as well.

There will be no Quidditch, and that's fine with me.

Horcruxes will be sought, found and destroyed--while Order members 
drop like flies.

After far too much has been paid for Harry ever to turn back, he'll 
find out what it's all about and face his own fate--worse than death 
(he's already faced that.)  He will face something, come to terms 
with something which, for all his growing magical powers, he is 
unable to change. (That's sort of lifted from an old JKR interview). 

 And then we'll all adjourn to the epilogue.

I agree with Pip that Harry will end up a Healer.  He was never ever 
going to work for the Ministry--which will always be a flawed 
place.  How lovely for Rowling's hubby, the Potter-look-alike-MD. 
**************************************************************88

Catherine wrote:
>Why is Dumbledore saying one thing at the end of OoP, and then at 
the beginning
>of HBP, a mere few weeks later, is saying something completely 
different?

Talisman responds:

Do you really want me to say it? <g>

Talisman: who is still loving the scene where Snape softly sings his 
healing song over Draco.  A sort of Dark Phoenix, healing with his 
song, while Myrtle supplies the tears.  Oh, yes.












 






From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 22:11:49 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] The Chain, cont.
In-Reply-To: <dbp4i5+dih8@...>
Message-ID: <20050721221149.613.qmail@...>

I
S
A
N
Y
O
N
E
S
T
I
L
L
O
N 
1
S
T
R
E
A
D
I
N
G
?

--- Talisman <talisman22457 at ...> wrote:

lots of predictions for book 7, and more besides:

to Hogwarts, if for nothing 
> else, for the TR trophy/Hufflepuff cup.

This one I do not buy.  I don't believe the trophy Tom Riddle got could be a horcrux.  For one
thing, I don't think that Voldemort would put part of his soul in anything which reminded him of
his muggle heritage.  He hates the name Riddle - why would he continue to be associated with it,
particularly entrust something as valuable as his soult to it?

Also, lets suppose that he did use the trophy.  How?  Who did he kill to be able to do it?  He
can't have done it whilst asking for the DADA post - he couldn't presumably kill someone whilst on
the premises - not right under Dumbledore's nose.  And the only death we know about whilst he was
at school was Myrtle, who died by Basilisk glare.  I don't think it makes sense that a horcrux can
be created when someone/something else committed the murder - unless the intention is enough, even
if you don't do it yourself?


> Catherine wrote:
> >Why is Dumbledore saying one thing at the end of OoP, and then at 
> the beginning
> >of HBP, a mere few weeks later, is saying something completely 
> different?
> 
> Talisman responds:
> 
> Do you really want me to say it? <g>


OK, hit me with it.  What theory have I missed this time?  <vbg>

Catherine

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 22:12:30 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:12:30 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
In-Reply-To: <dbp3ld+fouo@...>
Message-ID: <dbp6ke+hj58@...>


Oh and by the way
are we still doing spoiler spaces?

Not to be pushy, but even the younger group is doing quite well
without them over at the other site.

Unless of course, we older ones tend to drool on our clothes...

Just a moment, I need to go change my blouse.

Ok that must be a spoiler space!


To continue the rest of the post....in my movie example, I don't 
think that was plan A. It was more like plan W. And in some of the 
plans, Snape wouldn't have killed DD, and Snape would have been the 
sacrifice. But at this moment, Snape was the better choice to live.
Kathy W.







From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 22:41:23 2005
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:41:23 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
In-Reply-To: <dbp0qb+5ka8@...>
Message-ID: <dbp8aj+kdeu@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> Courage Camille!
> This cannot be!
> Recall that when Snape joined DD, Voldy was winning. More or less
> hands down. If it hadn't been for GH Voldy would have won. Aurors
> were being killed at Voldy's whim, the populace panicking. The WW
> would have caved in. Oh, DD and a handful of others may have carried
> on fighting, but they'd have been largely irrelevant in the larger 
> scheme of things. 
> 
> Why would Snape join the losing side, or even pretend to?

Because Voldie told him to, and Snape likes to keep himself alive.  
He goes to Dumbledore and spins a story of repentance (and you all 
know what I think it may have involved) with enough truth in it to 
pass an exam.  He then has a foot in both camps--he's safe if 
Voldemort's doom comes about via the prophecy bit, he's safe if 
Voldemort wins.

Eh, it's possible.

-Nora helpfully offers options





From joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 21 23:34:14 2005
From: joym999 at joywitch_m_curmudgeon.yahoo.invalid (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:34:14 -0000
Subject: Non-HBP spoiler, was (SHIP: Oh, my.)
In-Reply-To: <dbmmuo+p2og@...>
Message-ID: <dbpbdm+dl6o@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:

> Nora quoted She-who-shoots-from-the-hip:
> 
> > 
> > "...it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that 
> Snape 
> > is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's 
> really 
> > nothing in the canon that supports that."
> 
> Golly.  Wow.  I hadn't got that far when I dashed over here.
> 
> Naturally one took sides in these debates, but I hadn't expected 
or 
> wanted it to end in a hail of bullets like this.
> 
> Blood on the floor.  Blood on the floor.
> 

Joywitch picks herself up off the floor, shakes the bullets off her 
silver armor, cleans up the blood and the dead bat carcasses with a 
wave of her wand, and admits defeat.

"Although," she adds, with a whining tone in her voice, "that bit 
about 'nothing in the canon that supports that' is rather unfair, 
considering how many times she's refered to Snape looking like an 
overgrown bat."

And, Amanda, if you dare to gloat at me I will send presents to your 
children and then they will think that Auntie Joywitch is a nice 
witch, and you will no longer be able to threaten them with my 
cauldron.

--JZC





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 01:59:55 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:59:55 -0000
Subject: The Chain, cont.
In-Reply-To: <20050721221149.613.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbpjus+ra7h@...>


Neil, we're old, this will not do,
Listen as we plead with you.
 
Relieve us of the heavy toil
Of making space for fear of spoil.

Lest your tyranny you rue,
When you're locked inside the loo,

Poison?d with U-no-poo


Talisman, quickly tucking a suspicious-looking bottle into her 
pocket:

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman 
<catorman at y...> wrote:

--- Talisman <talisman22457 at ...> wrote:
<lots of predictions for book 7, and more besides>:

...to Hogwarts, if for nothing  else, for the TR trophy/Hufflepuff 
cup.

Catherine:
>This one I do not buy. I don't believe the trophy Tom Riddle got 
>could be a horcrux. 

Talisman:
Well, naturally I would beg to differ.  The think the Hufflepuff cup-
-now at Hogwart's in the guise of the TR Trophy--is a delightful 
Horcrux. To the extent such things can be delightful.  Perhaps 
that's the first wrinkle to straighten out. 

It is the *Hufflepuff cup*--hence the slash--it is not the actual 
cup Riddle received  for Special Services--it is the Hufflepuff cup 
fixed up to look like the Riddle trophy. 

I think it's perfect.  Ron had to polish slugs off of it all night, 
so he certainly won't forget it.  He told the rest of the trio, and 
they all considered it in their deliberations about who Riddle might 
be; therefore, any one of them could plausibly have an epiphany when 
the time is ripe to find it. 

>From a literary point of view, it's wonderfully slipped into the 
background: the causal hidden in the casual, a perfect mystery clue; 
the little thing of no importance that pops up with new meaning. 

Moreover, readers think they are "done" with it, that it played out 
it's role in CoS, providing a clue to Riddle's identity. 
But, it's baa-ack.

What's worse, Rowling waves it in our faces every time we visit the 
Site of the Month page.  Cheeky little tart.

Catherine:
>For one thing, I don't think that Voldemort would put part of his 
>soul in anything which >reminded him of his Muggle heritage. He 
>hates the name Riddle - why would he >continue to be associated 
>with it, particularly entrust something as valuable as his soul >to 
>it?


Talisman:
Well, there's the Dairy--Tom Riddle's name on it, Tom Riddle's 
likeness inside of it--yet it was a Horcrux. LV doesn't seem to mind 
recalling his Riddle days, when it suits his purposes.

Plus, the actual thing containing his soul is a founders relic, the 
Hufflepuff cup.  While the thing it is disguised as, the Riddle 
trophy, was earned by killing a muggle, framing a half-breed, and 
duping the authorities. 

Got to be a laugh in that, every time he thinks of it.  Tom Riddle's 
early glory days, a happy souvenir. A way of keeping faith with the 
vows he made while still in school.

There is more, but let's take a look at your last objection.

Catherine:
>Also, lets suppose that he did use the trophy. How? Who did he kill 
>to be able
>to do it? He can't have done it whilst asking for the DADA post - 
>he couldn't presumably kill someone whilst on the premises - not 
>right under Dumbledore's nose. 

Talisman:
No, he didn't kill anyone while he was visiting about the DADA 
post.  But, it isn't necessary to kill someone at the spot where you 
store your completed Horcrux.

Catherine:
>And the only death we know about whilst he was at school was 
>Myrtle, who died by Basilisk glare.

Talisman:
Of course we now know that he killed his Riddle relatives before 
leaving school, and I believe Morfin, as well.  (I need to reread. 
I've only read it once, and though I was done by Saturday afternoon, 
I read the whole thing out loud to a dyslexic child, so it wasn't  
the best session for text analysis.) Yes, he had the ring when he 
spoke to Slughorn, so Morfin, as well.

But, he didn't obtain the Hufflepuff cup until after school.  Maybe 
he could keep soul bits in temporary storage, maybe not.  It would 
be worth an additional laugh to make the Faux-Riddle Cup out of the 
Riddle murders.

It's of no consequence, whomever he killed, before or after 
graduating, all he had to do was replace the mundane trophy with the 
finished Horcrux.  He certainly could do that while on a visit to 
the school. Stop by to see the old trophy, and a quick as Bob's-your-
uncle the job is done.

As Hagrid said, if there is anyplace something is safer than at 
Gringotts, it's Hogwarts.  

Planting a Horcrux there, in addition to having the laugh that DD is 
guarding it for you, is good strategy--especially if you're not sure 
your DE's are all that loyal.  A little piece of you where they are 
not welcome. 

Plus LV has a thing about the school, and a wish to be attached to 
it.

Catherine:
>I don't think it makes sense that a horcrux can be created when 
>someone/something else >committed the murder - unless the intention 
>is enough, even if you don't do it yourself?

Talisman: 
I'm quite sure he murdered someone, properly.

> Catherine wrote:
> >Why is Dumbledore saying one thing at the end of OoP, and then at
> the beginningof HBP, a mere few weeks later, is saying something 
completely
> different?
>
> Talisman responds:
>> Do you really want me to say it? <g>
>
>Catherine:
>OK, hit me with it. What theory have I missed this time? <vbg>

Talisman: 
This was rather a rhetorical question, my infamous position 
regarding DD's veracity being what it is, I am never surprised at 
his doubletalk.  But, when I have a bit more time to spend at the 
key board, I'll try to answer you in sincerity. 

Talisman, certain you can become an Inferi by staring at a computer 
screen too long.










From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 03:38:49 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:38:49 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
In-Reply-To: <dbp3ld+fouo@...>
Message-ID: <dbppo9+k9s2@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> wrote:
>  
> 
> And I sure hope that new member of the OoP that we're going to meet 
> knows the truth about Snape!! No one else seems to.
> 

And like Kneasy, I won't be one bit surprised if that OoP member is also a member of DD's 
family.






From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 04:10:36 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:10:36 -0000
Subject: The Gleam
Message-ID: <dbprjs+t951@...>

I know this came up a few days ago

and I wanted to add a couple of thoughts 

from HBP.

Because now I wonder

if we'll ever find out

what that @#%&$ gleam meant.

********************************
I've been thinking about the cave scene and how Dumbledore felt the 
blood offering at the archway was 'crude': 

"The idea, as I am sure you will have gathered, is that your enemy 
must weaken him-or herself to enter. Once again, Lord Voldemort 
fails to grasp that there are much more terrible things than 
physical injury." (The Cave, p. 559)

Dumbledore is quite dismissive about this blood 
offering, 'disdainful' even.

DD then goes on to say Harry's blood is 'worth more' than his. At 
first I couldn't understand that statement. We know DD doesn't 
ascribe to blood purity or any of those notions. It doesn't seem 
likely he would think Harry's blood is more valuable just because 
he's younger. So it would have to be the blood protection that runs 
through Harry's veins that is 'worth more' than Dumbledore's blood.

Since DD professes to know Riddle's style of magic, I think he 
realizes the moment Harry tells him about the blood that Voldemort 
seriously miscalculated again. The blood-letting in the graveyard 
won't weaken Harry or his protection. Voldemort thinks he's able to 
touch Harry because he has some of Harry's protection in his own 
veins, but to Dumbledore the reverse must be true---Voldemort 
actually weakened himself by taking in Harry's 'valuable' blood, 
allowing the sacrificial magic to course through his own veins. He 
can touch Harry only becuase he himself is weaker, not the reverse. 

Here's where information in the HBP might expand the interpretation 
of Dumbledore's gleam. I think DD's statement after the gleam, that 
LV had 'overcome that particular barrier' isn't about the blood at 
all! I think he feels a moment of triumph hearing LV has once again 
overestimated his cleverness and weakened himself in the process, 
but in the next second Dumbledore realizes that with a corporal 
body, Voldemort will be able to continue his work toward 
immortality. 

We now know the diary incident caused DD to speculate about 
Voldemort's road to immortality, with attendant suspicions regarding 
soul-splitting. In that instant, Dumbledore realizes that even in a 
weakened body Voldemort will quickly continue his work toward 
immortality. The Order is in a race against time to figure out how 
to stop him before it's too late. All DD has is an inkling though, 
no facts, so Voldemort is one step ahead again.

Jen







From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 06:27:32 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:27:32 -0000
Subject: HBP Spolier: One perfectly sensible question and three daft ideas.
Message-ID: <dbq3kk+huae@...>

spoiler space starts
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
spoiler space ends

unless its infinite?

When DD says he believes that Voldy had the idea to use Nagini as a 
HRX around the time she killed an old muggle man, are we supposed to 
assume that this is Frank Bryce? If so, that isn't how it reads in 
GoF. 

Voldy could be a HRX for Nagini, it would explain his snake like 
looks.

RAB / Snape, it's a ship! 

Is the secret RAB mentions in the note not the HRX secret but 
another secret altogether?

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.






From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 07:42:15 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:42:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HBP:  Luna's commentary
Message-ID: <20050722074215.22097.qmail@...>

Not

Really

Spoilerish

But

I'll 

Put 

It

In

Anyway.

"...but now that big Hufflepuff player's got the Qaffle from her, I can't remember his name, it's
something like Bibble - no, Buggins - "

Is this the first piece of evidence we've been given that the Wizarding World reads Muggle
fiction?

Catherine, focussing on the important things during her reread


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 08:40:29 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:40:29 +1000
Subject: HBP:  Luna's commentary and Tonk's Red Herring
In-Reply-To: <20050722074215.22097.qmail@...>
References: <20050722074215.22097.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <20050722084029.GA7774@...>

Picture yourself on a list with an email
With theories of this and theories of that
Suddenly someone exclaims in the subject
"There's something you haven't done yet!!"

What could it be I keep asking myself
What could I simply forget?
List Elves aplenty throw food in my face til I'm gone

Spacey on the Screen With Spoilers!
Spacey on the Screen With Spoilers!
Spacey on the Screen With Spoilers!

Aahhhhh!

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

> "...but now that big Hufflepuff player's got the Qaffle from her, I can't remember his name, it's
> something like Bibble - no, Buggins - "
> 
> Is this the first piece of evidence we've been given that the Wizarding World reads Muggle
> fiction?
> 
> Catherine, focussing on the important things during her reread

I couldn't help noticing that too. I can't remember anything more explicit
than that unless some Dickens fan comes up with something, Kneasy? Perhaps
we'll get more of this in Harry Potter and the Cheeky Tart Wraps It Up.

Noone seems to have noticed the great big galumphing clanger JKR dropped in the
Dreaded Interview Pt. 2 wherein, quoting Dorothy L Sayers, she quoth:

" ...there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be
useful to camouflage other people's motives. That's true; it is a very useful
trick. I've used that on Percy and I've used that to a degree on Tonks in this
book, as a red herring."

Kind of throws out the Tonks/Remus ship, IMHO. She seems to hint that the
reason for DD's trust in Snape is kind of obvious, but it isn't so far to
me...

ewe2, 'ere this FILKing thing's a lark innit?

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 10:26:16 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:26:16 -0000
Subject: HBP: thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <FDCCEEC6AAC8DD4AA2DD0C28E41D2832C280E6@...>
Message-ID: <dbqhk8+fh0l@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Smythe, Boyd T {FLNA}" <boyd.t.smythe at f...> 
Space,
Where
No-one
Can
Hear
You
Scream -
"How
Long
With
These
Damn
Spoilers,
Neil?"

> 
> * Looks like we've finally got that powerful dark lord and dark war we've
> been hankering for! Thank goodness! Can't wait for the chaos of the
> marauding Dementors, acromantulas, giants and all in book 7. Hurray, chaos!

Oh, yes.
Death, destruction, mayhem. Dementors rushing around, miming "No Quarter!"
About time, says I.

> snip
> * Harry and all of his classmates suck at doing magic. 11 year old wandless
> Tom was already forcing people to "Tell the truth" and performing wandless
> magic left and right. A teenaged Severus was rewriting the potions book and
> creating his own spells. The teenaged Marauders were all animagi. Even Fred
> and George have done new magic. Meanwhile, Harry and Ron still struggle to
> do magic without speaking and Harry can't Occlumens worth a darn. Has anyone
> in his class done anything magically to be so proud of? Weak, weak, weak. 

This is a good point.
Many of the fandom have long been comfortable with the illusion that
Harry is a 'powerful' wizard. Some of us have tried to point out that this isn't
justified in the text. He's been enormously lucky, having all that protection, 
both spell induced and with  DD turning up at the right moment, and the finale
battle at Hogwarts puts his power in perspective. He wouldn't stand a chance
against Snape if Sevvy decided to snuff him, Harry's own spells are waved 
off by Snape as if they were slightly irritating flies. Even Draino looks to be
at least  the equal  of Harry -  mastering Occlumency and Unforgiveables in 
his spare time. And yet Snape is in fear and trembling of Voldy's magical power.
Magically Harry is not in the First Division.

> So this leads me to believe that either Harry is going to have to go up a
> learning curve that strains credulity, or he's going to need tons of help in
> his final engagement with LV. 

It'll be help, is my guess.
Does he know how to locate/identify/disable/destroy Horsecluckses? Or
the protective spells surrounding them? Nope.
And it's not likely that Hermy will find out how in a textbook.
Help will be needed. He needs an expert in Dark Magic.
Guess who.
But can he come to terms with it?
Ah, there's the rub.

> * Is there anything we don't know yet about why LV wanted to come back to
> Hogwarts to teach? DD assumes he was looking for another item to make a
> horcrux. Is that it? Seems hardly enough to make him curse the DADA
> position.

The Chamber. It's still there and I believe it's still important.

Kneasy





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 10:49:22 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:49:22 -0000
Subject: Another take on what happened
In-Reply-To: <dbppo9+k9s2@...>
Message-ID: <dbqivi+anqe@...>

Lyn wrote: 
> And like Kneasy, I won't be one bit surprised if that OoP member is 
also a member of DD's 
> family.

Potioncat:
Of course, but come to think of it, that's who caught Snape listening 
at the door and banned him from ever returning....






From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 11:03:58 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] It's That Man Again: issues of trust  (was: Re: My HBP Review )
In-Reply-To: <dbopro+4ki5@...>
Message-ID: <20050722110358.96500.qmail@...>

--- dungrollin <spotthedungbeetle at ...> wrote:

> A hag goes into an apothecary's

Best spoiler space yet!


> Dungrollin:
> I agree, wholeheartedly. It would be rubbish. And DD still refused 
> to tell Harry why he trusted Snape (chapter 25, The Seer
> Overheard). I can think of only two reasons why. Either it was 
> something intensely personal to Snape that he didn't want anybody 
> else to know (and we are dragged, kicking and screaming towards 
> LOLLIPOPS), or it 
> was something so absolutely confirmatory of Snape's loyalty to DD 
> that to tell anyone would risk it getting back to the DEs. 

Or a third option: Harry, at this stage of his young, inexperienced
life, wouldn't understand the reason.  As you get older, you get more
tolerant of other people's weaknesses and foibles.  Harry is in
super-hero mode and when he thinks of fighting Voldemort thinks of
open defiance and straight-on attack.  For Harry to hear the real
reason, not understand it but to have it in his head available to
Voldemort would be the worst possible outcome.  

For Snape's mission to succeed, Harry has to hate Snape.  That to me
is clear.  We'll have to wait at least two years (groan) to find out
more details, although I suspect one result will be to solidify
Snape's position right beside Voldemort.  After all, Harry will not
be shy about proclaiming his hatred and I assume we'll have to deal
with a spy in the Order who will take it all back to Voldemort.


> Dungrollin:
> Snape's gone back to Voldy to fulfil one final task for DD, 
> something that can only be done from within the DE's circle. 

I think the big task would be to foment dissent in DE ranks by being
Voldemort's new favourite and being utterly obnoxious about it. 
(This might be the only fun part for Snape.)  He'll treat other DE's
like he treated Wormtail in Chapter 2, he'll complain to Voldemort
about their lack of loyalty and/or competence, he'll play other DE's
off against each other by harping on little jealousies and
insecurities, and in general he'll make sure that the DE ranks will
be less enthusiastic than ever about Voldemort achieving his final
goal of world domination.  By the time Harry confronts Voldemort the
DE's will be less cohesive than ever.

The exception is the Malfoy family, who now owe Snape big time.  I am
sure that a year in Azkaban has given Lucius time to wonder why he
ever thought bringing Voldemort back was a good idea and to remember
longingly the days of influence when he could lead the Minister of
Magic around by the nose.  


> ... HBP gave us no clue as to whether DD had told him 
> about the hors-d'oeuvres, though I suppose it's possible if Snape 
> saved DD after the hand incident, so it could be to do with them. 

Actually I think Snape does know all about the horsecrutches and that
throughout Book 7 Harry will find clues about their remaining
locations with surprising ease as Snape will be able to funnel info
from Voldemort to Harry indirectly, of course.

Also Dumbledore's actions during the locket episode strike me as
those of a man who's had detailed descriptions but hasn't actually
been there before.  I assumed he got those descriptions from Snape.


> Voldy's 
> really not so stupid as to kill off the only competent member of 
> staff he's got.

I think there are signs that Voldemort is increasingly giving in to a
petty desire to punish his DE's for past errors already.  He's
counting his dragons before they're hatched again.  It's going to
really crisp DE bacon if they're crucio'd for failing at tasks or not
trying to find Voldemort in Albania while
do-nothing-at-Hogwarts-and-get-a-salary-for-it Snape is the boss'
favourite.

 
> He's *not* ESE. It would be rubbish. Have a badge.
> D.E.L.U.S.I.O.N.A.L.
> (Death Eaters Laughably Unsuspicious, Snape Is Obviously Not A
> Louse)

If you have an extra one, I'll wear it with pride.

Magda (who hates having a demanding job where she can't just read HP
posts all day)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 11:09:26 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:09:26 -0000
Subject: Nap Time
Message-ID: <dbqk56+slb7@...>

Isn't
a
Spoiler
a 
part 
on
a 
car?
You 
know,
the
type
a 
guy
has
fixed up
on
his 
own?

I haven't had a chance to really start a re-read. I'm reading the 
book to my youngest, but the speed is dependent on his attention span 
and my voice holding out. We just finished "Spinner's End".

But, the first time:

Something caught my attention when I first heard it. DD told Harry to 
go wake up Snape. My reaction was, when has Snape ever been asleep? 
He's the Dark Lurker, himself.  Then, someone (I don't recall who) 
sends Flitwick to wake Snape.

DD left Hogwarts with Potter; the Order is patrolling the halls; and 
Snape's in bed? And DD knows Snape is in bed. 

Out of sight, Flitwick wakes Snape, there is a thump, and the next 
morning Flitwick has a lump on his head. What's the chance that DD 
and Flitwick put a sleeping charm on Snape? Was Snape possibly 
against DD going? Or is Flitwick on the other side? Snape didn't seem 
to know the DEs were coming either.

Kathy W
Oh, my. I hope Flitwick didn't have to kiss Snape to wake him up.  
Might explain the lump on his head.








From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 12:44:05 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:44:05 -0000
Subject: HBP: Another notable discrepancy
Message-ID: <dbqpml+4k6f@...>

It's
Too
Early
To
Think
Up
Anything
Clever
To
Put Here

Snape tells Bella and Narcissa that he's the one who gave Voldemort
the information which led to the death of Sirius. At first glance that
ties in with Harry blaming Snape for Sirius's death. But Snape doesn't
say he goaded Sirius into going to the MoM. He specifically mentions 
information. But the information we know about was Kreacher's and
he supposedly gave it to Narcissa! But she doesn't call Snape on this.

Some possibilities:

A) It's a Flint. Jo forgot that Narcissa would know who gave Voldie
the info.

B) It's a test. Snape wants to find out whether Narcissa will cover
for him.

C) Kreacher was lying -- it  *was* Snape who told
Voldie about the closeness between Sirius and Harry, and Narcissa
has no idea that she was supposed to be the conduit

D) Kreacher was lying, Narcissa didn't know anything,   -- and Snape 
reported this to Dumbledore, who then became quite anxious to secure 
Kreacher at Hogwarts. It remains for Harry to discover who Kreacher
was trying to protect.

Thoughts?

Pippin
remembering that the sixth obstacle was a *logic* puzzle






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 13:14:31 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:14:31 -0000
Subject: HBP: Darkness (was thoughts...)
In-Reply-To: <dbqhk8+fh0l@...>
Message-ID: <dbqrfn+6iht@...>

If
you
apparate
from
one
forum
to
another,
do
you
travel
through
spoiler
space?

Kneasy wrote:

> Oh, yes.
> Death, destruction, mayhem. Dementors rushing around, miming "No 
Quarter!"
> About time, says I.

Kneasy, that's hardly the worst of it.  Want to try again?

> Oh, yes.
> Death, destruction, mayhem. Dementors rushing around *in sexual 
congress*, miming "No Quarter!"
> About time, says I.

Thank you, Kneasy, that's better.

David






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 13:29:12 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:29:12 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
In-Reply-To: <dbmn2h+mge6@...>
Message-ID: <dbqsb8+4tnm@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kumayama at e...> wrote:
My
Space
Bar
Is
Almost
Empty.
Re-supply
Urgently
Requested.

> 
> I'm sure others have already seized on how we must now 
> re-interpret Snape's memory of mother cowering before 
> presumably his father. Much room for a wide range of speculation 
> here, in particular, there is now going to be room for speculation
> about how Snape acquired his brilliance.
> snip
> 


Snape's mother? Is this the 'Crying child'  memory from OoP?
Hurrumph.
Other interpretations are available to interested readers.
Contact resident conspiracists for details.

> Which brings me to the still unrevealed reason why DD so trusts 
> Snape. So, I will again go out on a limb I have climbed out on in 
> a previous post to you. Snape may well be the progeny of DD, 
> either son or grandson. In my earlier post to you, I think I primarily
> played up the Grandfather angle, but lets try the father possibility 
> (I have no idea if the time lines are conceivable [sorry]). Indeed, I 
> shall be so bold here as to suggest that there is some possibility 
> that the muggle "father" of Snape is not the biological father of 
> Snape. What if following an act of wizarding indiscretion, Ms. Prince
> becomes aware that a child is on the way, and the father says his 
> relationship as father must be concealed for the child's and 
> mother's safety. A muggle father might well be a fall back substitute.
> 
> Some snippets of how this might fall in line with other themes in the 
> book.
> 1. Harry being hidden away with the Muggle Dursleys, 
> 2. That Snape is likely the most powerful wizard in existence next to 
> DD and LV. So where does he get those powers and talents, specifically
> with respect to Occulomency, Legillimancy, and Potions [OLP].
> 3. The repeated reminders that talents are often passed down within 
> families. Granted DD has a great mastery of many things, but haven't 
> some of his more recognizable talents been in the areas of OLP.
> 4. JKR's comments about not being able to reveal marriages etc. We 
> still haven't had one revealed.
> 4. The reason why DD trusts Snape so completely and perhaps even, 
> unrealistically. That "softy" DD cannot avoid feeling a trust and even 
> love for his own progeny.
> 5. The information that Harry could not bear. The level of cognitive 
> dissonance he could not master, that his most hated and most loved 
> and admired figure were father and son (grandson). DD sometimes 
> appears to actually want to tell Harry, but it appears he always 
> thinks better of it.
> 6. Then there is the irony of the HBP. Might it well be that it is a 
> sarcastic reference to his understood but unrevealed relationship to DD.
> 7. And finally, wouldn't it all fit in so well with Snape's disdain not 
> only for HP's celebrity, but that Harry is so often associated with the 
> accomplishments/popularity of his forbears. 

Plus lots more.

Isn't it amazing that everything seems to be centering around Snape?
With Harry we're wondering "how will he do it?" - fascinating enough,
but at least we're not spending acres of board space on the fundamentals 
of who and what he is.

This married staff-members question that Jo has pointedly refused to
answer while allowing that it does throw light on what's going on, there's
got to be clues somewhere (he said hopefully, trying hard to forget some
of the strokes Jo has pulled already). But once it was announced that 
neither Lily nor Harry  were related to DD most fans lost any immediate
interest.

Snape as DD progeny (1st or 2nd generation) or even, as I've suggested 
to you off-site, uncle-nephew (Aberforth taking  centre-stage at last)
does have a certain piquancy. Additionally, a 'mudblood' as Head of
Slytherin House doesn't really compute, either. Mind you, our Eileen 
could have married more than once - first to an as yet unknown wizard,
second time to this Muggle bloke. In which case the 'Half Blood Prince'
could be an ironic expression of disgust for his mothers tastes, reflecting
as it would on Snape's perceived status among the Slytherins.

Unless Jo is really playing dirty, the only other staff member whose family
history might be significant that I can think of is McGonagall. A Gryff like 
DD and often disregarded when the paranoid conspiracists start pawing 
over the entrails. Is she important? Could she be DD's daughter? Certainly
she's following in his footsteps - Gryff student, Transfiguration teacher, 
Head of Gryff, Head of School. Will she be the new Head of the Order? 
Hmm. Worth a ponder.

That's one thing (among others) that I got wrong, anyway. I was sure
that Sevvy would be Order Supremo after DD shuffled off this mortal coil.
Such a pity. The potential for conflict with Harry was almost mouth-watering.

A sibling-type rivalry (on one side anyway) as Harry and Sevvy 'compete' 
for DD's attention, if true, - and it could be read between as such if one is
looking for it, could explain at least a part of the Harry/Snape mutually
ruffled feathers.

I feared that once book 6 appeared theorisinng would of necessity be 
severely restricted; Jo did say it was time to provide some answers.
However, either the fans aren't satisfied with them, can't see them or
don't believe them. Speculation will be as rife as ever for the next 2 years.
Lovely!

Kneasy






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 13:44:16 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:44:16 -0000
Subject: HBP: Darkness (was thoughts...)
In-Reply-To: <dbqrfn+6iht@...>
Message-ID: <dbqt7g+2jsp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> If
> you
> apparate
> from
> one
> forum
> to
> another,
> do
> you
> travel
> through
> spoiler
> space?
> 
> Kneasy wrote:
> 
> > Oh, yes.
> > Death, destruction, mayhem. Dementors rushing around, miming "No 
> Quarter!"
> > About time, says I.
> 
> Kneasy, that's hardly the worst of it.  Want to try again?
> 
> > Oh, yes.
> > Death, destruction, mayhem. Dementors rushing around *in sexual 
> congress*, miming "No Quarter!"
> > About time, says I.
> 
> Thank you, Kneasy, that's better.
> 

Apologies.
I missed the mind-boggling potential of adding that new snippet of info.
Must do better.
Mind you, at my age and condition you don't so much *think* about sex as
try to remember it.

Kneasy





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 14:16:46 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:16:46 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
In-Reply-To: <dbqsb8+4tnm@...>
Message-ID: <dbqv4e+8hlu@...>

 "...the delicate
power of
liquids
that creep
through human
veins,
bewtiching the
mind,
ensnaring the senses..."
I don't know
about the rest of you
but I'm
spaced out.

Kneasy wrote:
> Isn't it amazing that everything seems to be centering around Snape?
> With Harry we're wondering "how will he do it?" - fascinating 
enough,
> but at least we're not spending acres of board space on the 
fundamentals 
> of who and what he is.
> 
> This married staff-members question that Jo has pointedly refused to
> answer while allowing that it does throw light on what's going on, 
there's
> got to be clues somewhere (he said hopefully, trying hard to forget 
some
> of the strokes Jo has pulled already). But once it was announced 
that 
> neither Lily nor Harry  were related to DD most fans lost any 
immediate
> interest.
> 
> Snape as DD progeny (1st or 2nd generation) or even, as I've 
suggested 
> to you off-site, uncle-nephew (Aberforth taking  centre-stage at 
last)
> does have a certain piquancy. Additionally, a 'mudblood' as Head of
> Slytherin House doesn't really compute, either. Mind you, our 
Eileen 
> could have married more than once - first to an as yet unknown 
wizard,
> second time to this Muggle bloke. In which case the 'Half Blood 
Prince'
> could be an ironic expression of disgust for his mothers tastes, 
reflecting
> as it would on Snape's perceived status among the Slytherins.

KathyW:

Well, Severus's birth comes after the marriage to Tobias Snape, so I 
don't think two marriages would work. Unless there's a reason 
Hermione says "later" instead of "a year later". And it wouldn't have 
been Eileen Prince getting married but Eileen Malfoy...or some such.

How are wedding announcements handled in Britain? In America they are 
written by the bride's family and submitted to the paper. Some go 
into great detail about the dress, the families, bios on the bride 
and groom, a list of attendants, career and home plans.

Hermione states that it's a short announcement. So, did the family 
feel the need to announce the wedding even if they didn't approve? I 
wonder at the wording that allowed Hermione to know the groom was a 
Muggle? And does that mean the groom knew he was marrying a witch? 
Was anyone else mentioned as being at the wedding? Wouldn't Eileen 
and Minerva be about the same age? Hmmm, would Eileen and Gram 
Longbottom be about the same age too?

According to my dictionary, Eileen is Irish for Helen and Helen 
means "light" or "a torch" and Tobias means "God is good". Doesn't 
sound like a Dark Arts house, does it? Of course it doesn't sound 
like the couple in Snape's memory either.  And of course Lucius 
means "light" too.

Well, at least now we know Agnes wasn't waiting for a visit from 
Snape...


Kathy W. (what do you mean, who's Agnes?)






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 15:06:11 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:06:11 -0000
Subject: HBP: Ships that Sank in the Night
Message-ID: <dbr213+2l07@...>

Sorry
About
Forgetting
The
Spoiler
Space
--
How
Long
Lord
How
Long?


Jim:

> I agree that Hermione changed for the worse in this book. I
couldn't understand it on any other basis than it helped R/H happen.
Wait until she has to explain some discovery of hers to Ron three
times and he still doesn't get it. I wrote a fic once about Hermione
giving an interview post-Hogwarts. The Hermione from this book never
could have given that interview. I want that Hermione back.

Pippin:
I'm sympathetic, and if it's too painful to think about why that
Hermione never happened, please skip this post. That said...

It always seemed to me that it was H/Hr Hermione who was, or
would grow, OOC. In particular, there was an assumption that she
would outgrow her abrasiveness, and that just hasn't happened. I think
that's realistic; by and large Hermione's abrasiveness has served her
well. The wizarding world is no bed of roses for a Muggleborn.
She's going to need it.

It always disturbs me a little when people say that R/H can't work
because Hermione's smarter than he is. What the heck is wrong
with that? Is it any different than Fleur being prettier than Bill?

It didn't shock me when Hermione cheated to get Ron a place on the
Quidditch team -- she's never been one to follow the rules when
they stood between her and the greater good, and she's always
tended to define the greater good as what she thinks would be good
for the people she likes, without consulting them on the project.
coughSPEWcough. It's a dangerous habit and it's bound to get her in
trouble one of these days. Meanwhile it was funny, and it makes Draco
look a little better, doesn't it?

Jim:
> The characters we watched grow up were largely discarded in favor of
lesser ones - The little nerd Neville turned into a hero with the
heart of a lion, and all his great development was tossed aside.
Luna, eccentric and lovable, had her fifteen minutes of fame and
then she's over. A lot of beautiful threads were woven into the
tapestry and then let go. Why?
>

Pippin:
I think that is part of the realism of the story. It's not like Star
Trek where the same crew stays together improbably for twenty years.
Luna and Neville got confidence from being in the DA; Harry changed
their lives. He doesn't need to do it again.

Pippin





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 15:45:07 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:45:07 -0000
Subject: HPB: One other little Snape thought
Message-ID: <dbr4a3+d0ct@...>

This
Space
Intentionally
Left
Blank
This
Space
Intentionally
Left
Blank
This
Space
Intentionally
Left
Blank

"He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by
a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends."

That one made me blink. Snape doesn't attribute Harry's success
to the indulgence of  Albus Dumbledore, as he did when he was 
playing to Fudge in the Hospital wing in PoA.  Would a  DE  see 
Harry's success as due to the help  of a 'more talented'
muggleborn witch and  a blood-traitor? 

Pippin





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 15:55:33 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:55:33 -0000
Subject: The Chain
In-Reply-To: <dbnllr+rv77@...>
Message-ID: <dbr4tl+a3dq@...>

OK, finally I had time to read all of Valky's post on the main list 
(#133693--a great read for any who missed this one)and digest your 
thoughts here, Talisman. Whew! It's a lot to think about. Mainly I 
have just a few thoughts and questions......

Talisman:
> Valky's theory is that, beyond destroying the Horcrux, someone one 
> has to volunteer to die in order to take that bit of soul to the 
> other side.  I agree.
> 
> She thought that Sirius finished the job for his brother, Regulus, 
> and carried the soul bit from the locket over, just as DD carried 
> the bit from the ring.
> 
> One of her problems was that DD seems to contradict this when he 
> explains how Harry destroyed the Diary Horcrux (503) and elsewhere 
> says, that bit of soul [that was in the Diary] is gone (can't find 
> the site just now). 
<<snip>> 
> My take on it is that, yes, DD put Sirius through the veil so that 
> he could carry a piece of LV's soul with him.  But it was the 
piece 
> from the Diary. Harry destroyed the Diary, but he didn't remove
> the soul from inside of it.

Jen: When Harry destroys the diary, the 'memory' of Tom Riddle 
disappears with a piercing scream. That's all we have to go on. But 
it does seem the actual Horcrux itself, the container, was ruined. 

Now we do have canon that when a container is ruined, i.e. Voldemort 
himself at GH, his mangled soul still lived on in vapor b/c of the 
Horcruxes. 

But I'm thinking the actual Horcrux itself wouldn't act in the same 
way. For one thing, Voldemort contains the host soul within his 
body, not a portion of his ripped soul. The ripped soul, no longer 
attached to the host, would be totally dependent on the container to 
survive. If the container is destroyed.....

Voldemort seems to believe he lost one part of his soul when the 
Horcrux!diary was destroyed: "Ah, poor Lucius...what with 
Voldemort's fury about the fact that he threw away the Horcrux for 
his own gain..." (chap 23, p. 508)

Now I guess there's a possibilty the soul found another 'host' in 
the chamber, but if indeed the soul portion left the diary and 
entered Ginny (b/c she was already the one attached to it), then 
Sirius taking the diary through the veil didn't destroy the soul.

Talisman:
> Similarly, DD says he destroyed the ring Horcrux, and he says the 
> ring is no longer a Horcrux (503), but he simply omits the part 
> explaining that *he* now is saddled with this piece of LV's soul 
> which has to be taken to the other side.

Jen:
"However, a withered hand does not seem an unreasonable exchange for 
a seventh of Voldemort's soul." (chap. 23, p. 503)

This is purely a thematic thought, but why isn't it enough that 
Harry and Co. have to search down and destroy all the Horcruxes, 
without the additional plot development of carrying the souls over 
to the other side?

There is precedent for this idea in Greek myth, where a soul cannot 
find rest until safely in the Underworld. And in Pottervese as well, 
with the ghosts. And there would be a certain symmetry to Harry's 
life, starting with the sacrifice by Lily and ending with sacrifices 
by all his nearest and dearest.

I guess it feels like too *much* plot development. Every courier 
must be someone willing to sacrifice for Harry, and each one 
performing the sacrifical killing must also be willing to sacrifice 
for Harry. Harry's a sweetie and all that, but.....;)

Now from Talisman post #2414:
> That, I think, is a part of being a member of the Order, not just 
> the willingness to fight LV, nor even the willingness to face
> death in the battle, but an agreement--if necessary--to go out by
> friendly fire in order to transport another piece of LV soul.
> 
> That is why Mrs. Weasley is so agitated when Sirius tells Harry 
> about the Order, and he wants to join.  
> 
> You may recall, it's not Mrs. Weasley who answers Harry, it's 
Lupin.
> 
> "No...The Order is comprised only of overage wizards," he 
> said... "There are dangers of which you can have no idea, any of 
> you..." (OoP 96)
> 
> He is saying this to a boy who has met the assembled DEs, who has 
> already battled LV, a Basilisk, dementors, a troll, etc.  There is 
> something even more awful facing members of the OoP?  uh-huh.

Jen: Harry has certainly faced many dangerous situations. He's also 
always had help (whether in person or through Fawkes or other 
magical means). I believe by this comment Lupin is thinking of a few 
things Harry's never run up against, and certainly not when alone 
and isolated from everything except his wand and a little luck.

Lupin certainly understands, acting as a spy within the werewolves 
while Fenrir is on the loose. No other Order members around. No 
blood protection. One day the werewolves decide they don't trust him 
and...well, it wouldn't be pretty. No DD around to catch the fall, 
no Fawkes swooping in with GG's sword.

It's hard to understand how embattled Order members, who have faced 
the darkest, foulest parts of the WW with nothing more than their 
skill and luck, would view a sacrifice as 'dangerous'. Especially a 
*willing* sacrifice, which is what it sounds like must happen in 
order for a soul to safely make its way back to the other side. 
Dying by friendly fire sounds a helluva lot less dangerous than 
having Fenrir rip your body from limb to limb. 

Jen, thinking Valky and Talisman are pretty darn clever.






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 16:04:13 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:04:13 -0000
Subject: HPB: One other little Snape thought
In-Reply-To: <dbr4a3+d0ct@...>
Message-ID: <dbr5dt+tjl5@...>

That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me
That reminds me

> "He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by
> a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends."
> 
> That one made me blink. Snape doesn't attribute Harry's success
> to the indulgence of  Albus Dumbledore, as he did when he was 
> playing to Fudge in the Hospital wing in PoA.  Would a  DE  see 
> Harry's success as due to the help  of a 'more talented'
> muggleborn witch and  a blood-traitor? 

I thought another hole in Snape's explanation to Bella and Narcissa 
concerns Quirrell.  He says he never realised Voldemort was there.

But once Unicorns are being killed in the Forest, it's hard to 
escape that conclusion, as Firenze knows.  Given we now know the 
school keeps comprehensive records of detentions, and Hagrid 
specifically asked for help with this problem, it's hard to believe 
that Snape didn't know about it.  (Draco would have had to have kept 
mum, too.)

In fact, he is relying on Narcissa not putting two and two together, 
or Draco never having mentioned that episode to her - or her good 
will.

David





From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 16:14:26 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:14:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP: thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <dbqhk8+fh0l@...>
Message-ID: <20050722161427.2357.qmail@...>

--- Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...> wrote:

> Many of the fandom have long been comfortable with the illusion
> that Harry is a 'powerful' wizard. Some of us have tried to point 
> out that this isn't justified in the text. He's been enormously 
> lucky, having all that protection, 
> both spell induced and with  DD turning up at the right moment, and
> the finale battle at Hogwarts puts his power in perspective....
> Magically Harry is not in the First Division.


I'm not disagreeing with you, although I think there are signs that
Harry is a stronger wizard than he realizes.  Harry is best when he
does something automatically without thinking about it - casting a
patronus, flying a broomstick - or when he's in a tight corner - it
was his idea after all to break the prophecy globes so that the
hextet could make a break for it while they were trapped in the DoM. 


If he stops to think about it, he's often stymied or doesn't
accomplish what he wants.  He also gets frustrated, which probably
doesn't help.  

Magda

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 17:21:16 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:21:16 -0000
Subject: HBP: thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <20050722161427.2357.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbr9uc+hl06@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with you, although I think there are signs that
> Harry is a stronger wizard than he realizes.  Harry is best when he
> does something automatically without thinking about it - casting a
> patronus, flying a broomstick - or when he's in a tight corner - it
> was his idea after all to break the prophecy globes so that the
> hextet could make a break for it while they were trapped in the DoM. 
> 
> 
> If he stops to think about it, he's often stymied or doesn't
> accomplish what he wants.  He also gets frustrated, which probably
> doesn't help.  
> 
> Magda
> 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's useless, he's not, just that some of 
fandom have taken it for granted that since he's Harry then by definition
he's a top drawer wizard equal to more or less anyone - despite the fact 
that he's still at school.

I agree that mature consideration of the "what the hell do you think you're 
doing?" type is not Harry's forte. One shouldn't expect it to be, he's a stranger
in a strange land and in the 6 years he's been there nearly all of his time 
has been at Hogwarts. Now he's been thrown in the deep end with a vengence.

It's probably only from now on that not thinking before acting will become
quite literally a fatal error. He's on the high-wire and his safety net has gone.
Interesting to compare and contrast with Tom at the same age - Tom was 
always planning, looking for the edge. Calculation vs emotion. The emotion
tells Harry that instinctively he's right, but he should have learned from the
Sirius debacle that being 'right' emotionally doesn't guarantee success. In 
fact it can have disasterous consequences if you don't do your sums first.
Has he learned this lesson or will there be some more nasty set-backs before
it finally sinks in?

Kneasy






From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 18:45:40 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:45:40 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
Message-ID: <dbresk+7279@...>

Hi all. I'm a long time member, but first time poster.

After reading HBP, I have some concerns about the Timeline, 
specifically the years 1979 to 1981. I'm using the Timeline at the 
Lexicon as a reference. I'm looking at the time between 
the Prophecy (precise date unknown) and October 24 1981 when Peter 
Pettigrew is made the 
Potter's Secret Keeper.

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/main/timeline_1970-1990.html
 
Per HBP, Dumbledore knows that the child born in July is "the 
child".  Per the Lexicon Timeline, Dumbledore has this information at 
least 1 year before Oct. 24, 1981. Unless wizarding pregnancies are 
different than Muggle pregnancies, in early 1980, Dumbledore knows 
that Lily Potter and Alice Longbottom are pregnant and the estimated 
delivery dates are late July to early August.

Logically, Dumbledore would have put these expectant families under 
protective services as soon as he had that prophecy information. As 
far as I can tell, the canon isn't specific to the month when the 
Prophecy was made, so we don't know the proximity of the Prophecy to 
the births of Neville and Harry.

Anyhow, Neville and Harry are born and presumably the Longbottoms and 
Potters are in safe houses during the remaining months of 1980 to 
Halloween 1981. 

According to canon, Peter Pettigrew is made the Potter's secret 
keeper on  October 24, 1981. IIRC in PoA, Harry learns that 
Dumbledore offered to be their secret keeper before they went into 
hiding but James wanted Peter to be it. 7 days later, the Potters are 
dead and Voldemort is defeated.  

So, my question is, what is the date of the prophecy? I can't imagine 
that Dumbledore or the Ministry would wait for 1 year before putting 
the Potters and Longbottoms in safehouses.

Milz 





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 20:37:51 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:37:51 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbresk+7279@...>
Message-ID: <dbrlev+uhqs@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:

> So, my question is, what is the date of the prophecy? I can't
imagine  that Dumbledore or the Ministry would wait for 1 year before
putting  the Potters and Longbottoms in safehouses.
> 

Pippin:
Dumbledore didn't immediately know who the prophecy children were
going to be, and judging by his attitude toward prophecy, probably
didn't make much effort to find out. After all, he doesn't believe
that prophecies always come true.

According to Fudge, Dumbledore didn't know that Voldemort was after 
the Potters until one of his spies (Snape?) told him. He would have
to be careful what he did with the information,  since acting on
it would not only confirm to Voldemort that he had chosen the "right"
child but might alert him that he had a spy in his camp. It's an
interesting question what took Voldemort so long to plan his attack. 
But since his own spy was someone close to the Potters, he may have 
feared that  eliminating them would close off a major  source of 
information on what Dumbledore was up to. 

Pippin





From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 21:12:17 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:12:17 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
In-Reply-To: <dbqsb8+4tnm@...>
Message-ID: <dbrnfh+4s83@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> My
> Space
> Bar
> Is
> Almost
> Empty.
> Re-supply
> Urgently
> Requested.
> 
>snip> 

> Snape as DD progeny (1st or 2nd generation) or even, as I've suggested 
> to you off-site, uncle-nephew (Aberforth taking  centre-stage at last)
> does have a certain piquancy. Additionally, a 'mudblood' as Head of
> Slytherin House doesn't really compute, either. 

Now Lyn:
I like playing up the Aberforth connection, but I don't think it would impact Harry 
sufficiently, nor cause DD to trust sufficiently, or even help explain Snape's exceptional 
talent. I do support your early supposition that he is most apt to be the Order member to 
take center stage. Aberforth surely can provide more  DD history than anyone else. Which 
brings me to: "Who might inform Snape of his relationship to DD, if it were not DD 
himself" and I think it might likely be Aberforth. Also, who might DD have shared a private 
confidence with, and I think it might well have been his brother. Afterall, it has been 
revealed again that DD had a regular presence at (presumably) Aberforth's establishment.

If one goes with a DD/Snape family bond, then might it not be concieveable that Snape 
might choose to spend time with the one DD family member with whom he could 
acknowledge his real self. That might help explain just why Snape was even allowed at 
Aberforth's pub, and how he might not be so carefully observed if he left the common 
areas. Probably a stretch, but I do think it holds together.  
 
> 
> A sibling-type rivalry (on one side anyway) as Harry and Sevvy 'compete' 
> for DD's attention, if true, - and it could be read between as such if one is
> looking for it, could explain at least a part of the Harry/Snape mutually
> ruffled feathers.

Lyn again:
Yes, I think this does meaningfully expand the poignancy of their relationship.

I think it also draws a distinction between Snape and Harry when each are considered at a 
particular age. DD words are interesting here: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we 
truly are...."  Why should these words be any less applicable to Snape, not just in the 
"present" but as a youth. Harry, to a significant extent, manifests almost every value DD 
holds more dear, that he (and Rowling) would want most in a son: Love, concern for 
others, bravery, loyalty, etc., in general, a Griffindor orientation to life (Yah, Harry also 
exemplifies others less desirable, but perhaps in areas not as prized). 

Snape, on the other hand, chose and displayed (particularly as a youth) almost 
diametrically opposite values. Only intelligence, (which DD shows he greatly prizes, at 
least in himself--but which interstingly JKR tries to play down otherwise), does Snape 
actively display, but still not in a manner DD would prize. 

So if one were DD, which child would he feel most drawn to, which would he most wish t 
own as a son? 

Lyn






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 21:30:50 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:30:50 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
In-Reply-To: <dbqsb8+4tnm@...>
Message-ID: <dbroia+10f0u@...>

No spoilers here.

I hate to throw a damper on all this lurvely speculation, but at one
point in OOP, Dumbledore tells Harry that he regarded their close
relationship as a danger and says, "I never dreamed I would have
such a person on my hands." 

I think that pretty much rules out a secret father/son relationship 
with anybody. Sorry.

Pippin





From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 21:49:46 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:49:46 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbrlev+uhqs@...>
Message-ID: <dbrplq+v819@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...>
wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> 
> > So, my question is, what is the date of the prophecy? I can't
> imagine  that Dumbledore or the Ministry would wait for 1 year
before
> putting  the Potters and Longbottoms in safehouses.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Dumbledore didn't immediately know who the prophecy children were
> going to be, and judging by his attitude toward prophecy, probably
> didn't make much effort to find out. After all, he doesn't believe
> that prophecies always come true.
> 

I see your point but... according to Rowling's interviews, there is a
book at Hogwarts that has the name of every magic child when it is
born. I don't think it would have been too difficult for Dumbledore to
check that book for the July babies. Moreover, Lily and Alice were
both part of the OoP---again, unless magical pregnancies manifest
themselves differently from Muggle ones, I'd think Dumbledore would
notice a 7 months pregnant woman and I'd think he would be able to
estimate the date of the births by counting on both hands.

But if it is the case that Dumbledore chose to not act on information
because he didn't believe it was credible and that lead to James and
Lily's death, then I hold him as responsible for it as Snape and
Pettigrew.
 
> According to Fudge, Dumbledore didn't know that Voldemort was after 
> the Potters until one of his spies (Snape?) told him. He would have
> to be careful what he did with the information,  since acting on
> it would not only confirm to Voldemort that he had chosen the
"right"
> child but might alert him that he had a spy in his camp.

Right, but there are 2 children: Neville and Harry who are in danger
because one of them is "The Child". Dumbledore has known about this
prophecy at most a year before Oct, 1981. Common sense would dictate
to do something to protect both of these families because both of
these families are in danger, per the prophecy.  

That's why I'm having trouble with the timeline. Dumbledore knows of a
Prophecy that will endanger the life of a baby born in July 1980.
There are 2 babies born in July. If we are to believe the timeline,
then nothing was done until October 24, 1981 when the Potters went
into hiding at Godric's Hollow. That means for at least 1 year
Dumbledore, the OoP and the Ministry did nothing to protect Neville or
Harry until it was too late.

> It's an
> interesting question what took Voldemort so long to plan his attack.

Yes, it is. While it's possible he wanted more information on the
Potters, you would think that as soon as the July babies were born,
Voldemort would have picked which one it is. That's why I have a
feeling Trelawney's prophecy really occured sometime after July 1980
and nearer September or October 1981.
 
Milz






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 21:55:51 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:55:51 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
In-Reply-To: <dbroia+10f0u@...>
Message-ID: <dbrq17+5ao6@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> No spoilers here.
> 
> I hate to throw a damper on all this lurvely speculation, but at one
> point in OOP, Dumbledore tells Harry that he regarded their close
> relationship as a danger and says, "I never dreamed I would have
> such a person on my hands." 
> 
> I think that pretty much rules out a secret father/son relationship 
> with anybody. Sorry.
> 

Sorry, I don't see that.
How does DD not foreseeing how a relationship would develop negate 
the fact that it does exist?

And how does an unforseen relationship with Harry mean that one with
Snape can't exist?

Please elucidate.

Kneasy





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 22:22:55 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:22:55 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbrplq+v819@...>
Message-ID: <dbrrjv+e3vo@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> 
> I see your point but... according to Rowling's interviews, there is a
> book at Hogwarts that has the name of every magic child when it is
> born. I don't think it would have been too difficult for Dumbledore to
> check that book for the July babies. Moreover, Lily and Alice were
> both part of the OoP---again, unless magical pregnancies manifest
> themselves differently from Muggle ones, I'd think Dumbledore would
> notice a 7 months pregnant woman and I'd think he would be able to
> estimate the date of the births by counting on both hands.
> 
> But if it is the case that Dumbledore chose to not act on information
> because he didn't believe it was credible and that lead to James and
> Lily's death, then I hold him as responsible for it as Snape and
> Pettigrew.
>

This is a nice point.
Because it doesn't matter what DD believes, it's what Voldy believes that 
counts.

If Voldy believes in prophecies then the children are in danger even if the
Prophecy is the demented maunderings of a senile old bat. And I can't
accept that DD didn't realise that. But DD must have had doubts about
his own scepticism, else why stash Trelawney at Hogwarts? 

Alternatively, if he doesn't believe Sybill but tucks her away because he's 
afraid that Voldy might get to hear of it otherwise, then he's bolting the 
stable door after the equine escape. There's an eavesdropper and DD 
knows it.

Nope; DD used the Prophecy to flush Voldy into the open IMO.
And the protective spells (on both boys, I'll bet) were carefully designed to
knock Voldy out of the game. Pity about James, Lily, Frank and Alice, though.

Kneasy

  







From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 22:55:38 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:55:38 -0000
Subject: Fathers
In-Reply-To: <dbme1h+g6p9@...>
Message-ID: <dbrtha+2ee2@...>

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Quote from Time magazine:
> > "Much of Rowling's understanding of the origins of evil has to
> > do with the role of the father in family life. 'As I look back
> > over the five published books,' she says, 'I realize that it's
> > kind of a litany of bad fathers. That's where evil seems to
> > flourish, in places where people don't get good fathering.'"

Eloise: 
> Oh, you know that's really interesting. I never got round to 
> submitting a question for the Leaky interview, but that was 
> exactly what I had in mind to ask about and I find it fascinating
> that perhaps she hadn't realised what a significant role fathers 
> and more particularly bad father/son relationships play in her
> books.

Jen: I'd say HBP was a close-second to GOF for exploring father/son 
relationships. When Draco was seen walking around with the Hand of 
Glory, I couldn't help but think of Lucius in Borgin & Burkes. Did 
he get what he wanted in the end? Was he proud like Bella, or 
furious at Voldemort like Narcissa? 

Also in HBP there was the symbolic father/son with Dumbledore/Snape 
and with Dumbledore/Harry as well. And Tobias Snape is on the table, 
whether we hear from him again or not (I think we will).

Not to mention the lovely Mr. Gaunt <g>.

Eloise:
> It is rather disturbing that she views it in terms of fathering, 
> rather than parenting, but I wonder if subconsciously it is to do 
> with her first marriage and worry over what the effect of that
> break up might be on her daughter. 

Jen: You think JKR had any idea Molly would lead to so many fan 
disputes?!? If the theme is 'bad fathers' then Molly must represent 
the Good Mother. Especially since we have so few to go on!! Lily-
dead, Alice-insane, Merope-dead, Mrs. Crouch-dead. Narcissa and 
Molly are holding up the mothering fort at this point.

Eloise: 
> This general theme is what led me originally to *assume* that 
Snape 
> had an abusive/absent father before we had any concrete evidence 
(and 
> do we now? I don't know, but I'm sure it wasn't a good 
relationship 
> whether Tobias is the man in the Pensieve or not) and to see him 
> regarding Dumbldore in a paternal role. Of course we also see 
> examples of patricide (TR, Crouch Jr) and one could view Snape's 
> killing of DD in this light.

Jen: I still think we were seeing Tobias in the Pensieve memory, if 
only because Harry didn't recognize the hook-nosed man as Severus. 
But I think you're right Eloise, that surely in that notebook of 
JKR's she has a backstory on Snape's abusive/distant father as 
well!! Why should he be the lucky one?

Jen, thankful to JKR for portraying Arthur in a positive light since 
we don't have anyone else to turn to for good fathering.







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 23:03:45 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:03:45 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
In-Reply-To: <dbrq17+5ao6@...>
Message-ID: <dbru0h+ve7q@...>


Kneasy:
> Sorry, I don't see that.
> How does DD not foreseeing how a relationship would develop negate 
> the fact that it does exist?
> 
> And how does an unforseen relationship with Harry mean that one with
> Snape can't exist?
> 
> Please elucidate.

Pippin:
The way I interpret it, he's saying that he never imagined what it
would be like to have such a close personal tie with anyone. And I 
think if he ever had been so close to anyone, he would have had 
to work through the issues he had with Harry before, since Voldie 
isn't the first dark lord he's fought, and he wouldn't have made 
such a mess of things.


Pippin






From aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 23:21:54 2005
From: aberforthsgoat at aberforths_goat.yahoo.invalid (Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:21:54 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP: thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <dbr9uc+hl06@...>
Message-ID: <001701c58f14$2593faa0$0200a8c0@hwin>

Spoil

Spoiler

Spoilest

Interview

* * * * * 

Kneasy wrote,

> It's probably only from now on that not thinking before 
> acting will become quite literally a fatal error. He's on the 
> high-wire and his safety net has gone. Interesting to compare 
> and contrast with Tom at the same age - Tom was 
> always planning, looking for the edge. Calculation vs 
> emotion. The emotion tells Harry that instinctively he's 
> right, but he should have learned from the Sirius debacle 
> that being 'right' emotionally doesn't guarantee success. In 
> fact it can have disasterous consequences if you don't do 
> your sums first. Has he learned this lesson or will there be 
> some more nasty set-backs before it finally sinks in?

What you say makes sense - but I'm not sure that's where is Jo is going.
While it was Harry's emotions that got him into the mess in OoP, it was
Harry's emotions that got him out of it, too. Hence, I don't think Jo's
point is that Harry needs to balance his heart out with his head.

I *think* she's trying to say something else: his emotions are there,
and there's a lot of good in them. But they still aren't where they need
to be. As long as he keeps on *hating* people like Snape and Malfoy his
bad emotions are going to keep his good emotions from reaching their
full power.

Case to point: if Harry had been able to apologize to Snape in OoP, he
might have had a huge breakthrough with Occlumency - and would never
have ended up in the Department of Mysteries. Hence the problem
wasn'tthat he didn't use his head enough but that he used his heart the
wrong way.

Now whether it is Harry's head that will finally convince him that his
heart is out of whack - that's another question. Somehow, I don't think
so. At the moment anyway, the evidence against people like Snape and
Malfoy is too strong for Harry's rationality to do the trick. I predict
that something will happen that we force him to empathize with one of
them, which will lead to a breakthrough.

There. I'm sure y' all are glad that you don't have to wait 5 years
until Jo's finished the last volume of the encyclopedia. ::wry grin::

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) 
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, 
so that may not have been bravery...."  




From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 22 23:47:09 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:47:09 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbrrjv+e3vo@...>
Message-ID: <dbs0ht+g990@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
> 
> This is a nice point.
> Because it doesn't matter what DD believes, it's what Voldy believes
that 
> counts.
> 

Exactly, and since Snape was caught eavesdropping, then Dumbledore
should have figured out that Voldy would get that information,
eventually (I'm not implying that he knew Snape worked for V. at this
time, but rather that anyone eavesdropping could have passed that
information along to people who would tell V.)

> If Voldy believes in prophecies then the children are in danger even
if the
> Prophecy is the demented maunderings of a senile old bat. And I can't
> accept that DD didn't realise that. 

Exactly. If there was even a possibility that Voldie believed this
prophecy, then Neville and Harry were in danger no matter what.

>But DD must have had doubts about
> his own scepticism, else why stash Trelawney at Hogwarts? 
> 
> Alternatively, if he doesn't believe Sybill but tucks her away
because he's 
> afraid that Voldy might get to hear of it otherwise, then he's
bolting the 
> stable door after the equine escape. There's an eavesdropper and DD 
> knows it.

Right again. Dumbledore had to have some reason for hiding/protecting
Trelawney at Hogwarts. You bring up the two possible reasons: either
he believed her or he didn't really believe her but knew her life was
in danger due to the eavesdropper. 

I think it was more because they had an eavesdropper, rather than
Dumbledore believing Trelawney at that point. But that too goes back
to the question of why then were the Longbottoms and Potters not
protected better, since no one knew which July baby was "the child" at
that point. And if the Timeline is correct, then why did James, Lily
and Harry wait to go into hiding in October 1981?

Again, common sense would dictate to err on the side of caution.

> 
> Nope; DD used the Prophecy to flush Voldy into the open IMO.
> And the protective spells (on both boys, I'll bet) were carefully
designed to
> knock Voldy out of the game. Pity about James, Lily, Frank and
Alice, though.
> 
> Kneasy

Interesting thought, Kneasy. If Dumbledore used Harry and Neville as
the bait, then he definitely holds a great deal of responsibility for
what happened to both families.

I guess then that this is part of the "Choices" theme in the book...

Milz 





From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 00:12:39 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:12:39 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
In-Reply-To: <dbrnfh+4s83@...>
Message-ID: <dbs21n+g7nc@...>





--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...>
wrote:
> My
> Space
> Bar
> Is
> Almost
> Empty.
> Re-supply
> Urgently
> Requested.
>
>snip>

> Snape as DD progeny (1st or 2nd generation) or even, as I've 
suggested
> to you off-site, uncle-nephew (Aberforth taking centre-stage at 
last)
> does have a certain piquancy. Additionally, a 'mudblood' as Head of
> Slytherin House doesn't really compute, either.

Now Lyn:
I like playing up the Aberforth connection, but I don't think it 
would impact
Harry
sufficiently, nor cause DD to trust sufficiently, or even help 
explain Snape's
exceptional
talent. I do support your early supposition that he is most apt to be 
the Order
member to
take center stage. Aberforth surely can provide more DD history than 
anyone
else. Which
brings me to: "Who might inform Snape of his relationship to DD, if 
it were not
DD
himself" and I think it might likely be Aberforth. Also, who might DD 
have
shared a private
confidence with, and I think it might well have been his brother. 
Afterall, it
has been
revealed again that DD had a regular presence at (presumably) 
Aberforth's
establishment.

Snow:

Not that I have any objections to Aberforth but he does seem to cry 
for the position. My own thoughts quickly turned to one Alice 
Longbottom who we now know of being a member of the Order but have 
never truly been introduced to her. Alice as the key character can 
explain quite a bit about why she may have been tortured along with 
Snape info, which could be the reason why her and her husband had 
been tortured. 

Sirius told Peter that the deatheaters imprisoned in Azkaban were 
furious about the spy that turned traitor "I've heard them screaming 
all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-
crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on your 
information..." Could it be that they were actually referencing 
Snape? Bella isn't all that quick to believe Snape at Spinners End so 
it could be very likely. 

It all fits for me but then sometimes I can be a bit delusional. 
Wait
does'nt being delusional entitle me to a button or flag or metal 
of some kind even though this isn't ship territory. 


Snow ? wishing I could reply to many extremely interesting posts and 
subjects






From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 00:47:40 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:47:40 -0000
Subject: Potion in the Cave
Message-ID: <dbs43c+bmf9@...>



My very first thoughts of Dumbledore's drinking of the potion in the 
cave were that he was reliving the deaths of the inferri that lay in 
the lake. You hear different responses with each swallow of the 
potion. Dumbledore has never been afraid of death, so why would he 
utter any such passage?  The last phrase from Dumbledore's lips, 
however, as he swallowed the last of the potion was Kill me
that's 
when it truly hit me
wasn't that what Harry said in the end when 
Voldemort attempted possession at the Ministry? 

Some questions:

Is each swallow of the potion that resided in the cave representative 
of one of Voldemort's killings or attempted killings?
 
Do you hear, say and feel what each person murmured as Voldemort 
attempted to extinguish their life when you swallow this potion? 

I wander
but then I always do

Snow






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 00:58:13 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:58:13 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbs0ht+g990@...>
Message-ID: <dbs4n5+oajl@...>

Milz:
> Exactly, and since Snape was caught eavesdropping, then Dumbledore
> should have figured out that Voldy would get that information,
> eventually (I'm not implying that he knew Snape worked for V. at
this
> time, but rather that anyone eavesdropping could have passed that
> information along to people who would tell V.)

Pippin:
Yes, yes, but nothing in the prophecy says that it only applies to
English wizards. Indeed, it rather sounds as if it doesn't: 'and
he will have the power the Dark Lord knows not.' Only Voldemort
could decide who are the people who have defied him three times, 
and he has traveled far and wide, consorting with the worst of
magical kind.

Everyone was in mortal peril at the time -- not being the parents
of the Chosen One was hardly a protection. Surely Dumbledore
was already doing all he could to protect the members of the 
Order and their families. 

We haven't heard of any special protection Dumbledore 
gave to Lily and James  except for the secret-keeper spell. 
But that takes time to set up.

It was in effect at GP a month after Voldemort's return, but they
could have started working on it as soon as Sirius returned to
England, as much as ten months earlier. And that's not counting
time to learn how to do the spell. Animagus takes five years,
who knows how long it takes to learn how to cast Secret-keeper?

Pippin





From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 01:03:06 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:03:06 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts Now on Longbottoms
In-Reply-To: <dbs21n+g7nc@...>
Message-ID: <dbs50a+v1e2@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" <kking0731 at g...> wrote:

<snip>
> Alice as the key character can 
> explain quite a bit about why she may have been tortured along with 
> Snape info, which could be the reason why her and her husband had 
> been tortured. 
> 
> Sirius told Peter that the deatheaters imprisoned in Azkaban were 
> furious about the spy that turned traitor "I've heard them screaming 
> all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-
> crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on your 
> information..." Could it be that they were actually referencing 
> Snape? Bella isn't all that quick to believe Snape at Spinners End so 
> it could be very likely. 
> 
> It all fits for me but then sometimes I can be a bit delusional. 
> Wait
does'nt being delusional entitle me to a button or flag or metal 
> of some kind even though this isn't ship territory. 


Ah being delusional can have its own joyful merits. 

You've sparked me to profer another delusion just for the fun of it. 

I can't say I'm aware that anyone has ever had anything but sympathy for the Longbottoms 
in their present state, and almost surely, rightfully so......but just what if it the 
Longbottoms had their own role in steering LV to the Potters. If they were aware of the 
prophecy, they might have felt they would ensure their own son' s safety, as well as their 
own, by having the "other" child become the marked one, and the one to be killed. An 
ironic act of concern, indeed love, for their own child, but carried out in the most ignoble 
of ways. Such irony, that parental love could be perverted to such evil. Such irony that 
their torture would leave them unable to be there for, and to enjoy their son.

If they engaged in such a deed, and the DEs had some awareness of this, is it any wonder 
that they would seek out the Longbottoms thinking they actually did know something 
about/have responsibility for what happened to LV, and also be quite content to torture 
them into insanity. I think one could even suggest there is a hint that the Grandmother 
Longbottom might have a clue of what Frank and Alice had done. And if Neville had heard 
of the reasons why his parents were being tortured, might it not also give reason for a 
memory charm being placed upon him, to spare him from learning of his parents 
treachery in his defense. 

All highly unlikely, and rather unpleasantly dark, but near as I can recall, it doesn't violate 
canon, and might even be explanatory of it.

Consider the possibilities as you like, just for fun





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 01:52:48 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:52:48 -0000
Subject: Potion in the Cave
In-Reply-To: <dbs43c+bmf9@...>
Message-ID: <dbs7tg+brlh@...>

Spoil

Spoiling

Spoilerrific

Spoilerama

Spoilerini

Spoil

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" <kking0731 at g...> 
wrote:
> My very first thoughts of Dumbledore's drinking of the potion in
> the cave were that he was reliving the deaths of the inferri that
> lay in the lake. You hear different responses with each swallow of
> the potion. Dumbledore has never been afraid of death, so why
> would he utter any such passage?  

Jen: 
Two thoughts on the potion. First, Dumbledore says: "{Voldemort) 
would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they 
managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most 
importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the 
basin." (The Cave, p. 569, US).

I kept thinking, 'how would he ever get any information about 
intruders if they die before they leaving the cave?' Maybe the 
potion itself gives Voldemort information about the person drinking 
it. I've read theories that Dumbledore is remembering RAB's memories 
when he drinks the potion. I don't know. If so, then Voldemort isn't 
keeping a very close eye on his cave or at least forgot to empty the 
bowl, since he didn't find the fake locket. Not much use to have 
information on people if you never access it!

My thought was Dumbledore sounded like a person trapped by an army 
of Dementors and unable to break free. Dumbledore said he could 
break out of Azkaban, but once he started drinking that potion he 
was rendered unable to perform magic.

I think there's some evidence DD was indeed reliving his own worst 
nightmares or greatest fears after drinking the potion in the cave 
(from part 2 of Leaky Inteview):

ES: What would Dumbledore's boggart be?

JKR: I can't answer that either, but for theories you should read six
again. There you go.

At least some of the things DD said made me think this. Esp. the 
part where he begs someone 'don't hurt them, please it's my fault, 
hurt me instead'. that sounded like DD to me. Granted a begging, 
pleading, fearful like we've never seen, but he couldn't *always* 
have been so powerful, clever and self-contained! He has fears and 
defeats like everyone else that a potion could force him to re-live.

Snow:
The last phrase from
> Dumbledore's lips, however, as he swallowed the last of the potion 
was Kill me
that's 
when it truly hit me
wasn't that what Harry said in the end when 
Voldemort attempted possession at the Ministry? 

Jen: Creepy. You think he was being possessed by Voldemort somehow, 
while drinking the potion?








From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 02:13:16 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:13:16 -0000
Subject: Some (once private) thoughts on HBP/relationships/Snape's background
In-Reply-To: <dbs21n+g7nc@...>
Message-ID: <dbs93s+qbli@...>

Hey Hey we're the Monkees

People say we Monkee around

But we're too busy singing

To put anybody down.

(Now *those* are great

lyrics.)

Hah.


> Snow:
> 
> Not that I have any objections to Aberforth but he does seem to 
cry 
> for the position. My own thoughts quickly turned to one Alice 
> Longbottom who we now know of being a member of the Order but have 
> never truly been introduced to her. Alice as the key character can 
> explain quite a bit about why she may have been tortured along 
with 
> Snape info, which could be the reason why her and her husband had 
> been tortured. 


Jen: I'm leaning toward Alice, too. Because JKR has promised 
information about Lily in Book 7, really *significant* information. 
Not many people around who can give Harry that. (Unless the 
omnipresent Snape holds every clue to Book 7. Bah). But maybe Alice 
can, as an Order member, a contemporary, a new mom of a child 
born 'as the seventh month dies'. I'm hoping Alice will recover 
enough to drop a memory in the Pensieve for Harry, and discover a 
new relationship with her remarkable son as well.

And she looks to be the one most likely to recover. Frank's a goner 
I'm afraid. I had hopes for both after OOTP, but not now.

I guess another way Harry could hear about Lily is when he visits 
Godric's Hollow. Perhaps someone living there will remember Lily and 
have a story to share. Or he'll find some charmed object Lily left 
for him. But I'd so rather it be Alice. :(

Jen







From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 06:15:06 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:15:06 -0000
Subject: The Ax
Message-ID: <dbsn9a+ss6l@...>

SOMEONE
MUST 
VENTURE
INTO
THE
FORBIDDEN
FOREST
WHERE
APPARENTLY
NEIL
HAS 
BECOME
DIVERTED
CHASING 
WINSOME
CENTAUR
MAIDS
WITH
ONE
TAILLIGHT
GLOWING
AND
NO 
THOUGHT
FOR
US

Talisman: tsk, after all that work (this time not by me) there is 
just absolutely NOTHING to find in a Drooble's gum wrapper.

Part 3 of the lethal Mugglenet interview emerges.

Well, closer to home, it seems that no one has to carry the soul 
fragments anywhere.

"MA: Someone put it to me last night, that if Ginny, with the diary -

JKR: Harry definitely destroyed that piece of soul, you saw it take 
shape, you saw it destroyed, it's gone. And Ginny is definitely in 
no way possessed by Voldemort."

So, back to the drawing board.  But I tell you this:

1.a. DD killed Sirius in OoP. 
   b. Sirius volunteered to be killed. 
   c. It was important that Harry witness it.

2.a Snape killed DD
  b.DD orderd him to do it.
  c. It was important that Harry witness it.

In addition to al my guilty!DD posts, JKR has allowed that Sirius 
dies "for a reason,"  though she won't yet say what.

"Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :(

JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do 
it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep 
reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]."
(World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004) 

In the Mugglenet interview pt 3, she explained:

"JKR: Right, well, that's what I believed. Sirius would have done 
it. He, with all his faults and flaws, he has this profound sense of 
honor, ultimately, and he would rather have died honorably, as he 
would see it, than live with the dishonor and shame of knowing that 
he sent those three people to their deaths, those three people that 
he loved beyond any others, because like Harry he is a displaced 
person without family." 

(Talisman: which helps explain why he would volunteer, in my theory)


Two agreed hits by Order members on Order members.  It's got to be 
tied to the Horcruxes and LV's defeat.  Nothing else would rate such 
action.

And further:

"MA: Here at the end you sort of get the feeling that we know what 
Harry's setting out to do, but can this really be the entire 
throughline of the rest of the story?

JKR: It's not all of it. Obviously it's not all of it, but still, 
that is the way to kill Voldemort. That's not to say it won't be 
extremely an torturous and winding journey, but that's what he's got 
to do. Harry now knows ? well he believe he knows ? what he's 
facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I 
don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, `There 
are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go 
for Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to 
do."

Talisman: "...he believes he knows..."


Finally, re finding the Horcruxes:

"ES: It's a tall order.

JKR: It's a huge order. But Dumbledore has given him some pretty 
valuable clues and Harry, also, in the course of previous six books 
has amassed more knowledge than he realizes. That's all I am going 
to say."

[Talisman, we've seen them all!]

"ES: It seems like it would be impossible. If Harry had gone to the 
cave, he never could have done it on his own, it seems like. 

JKR: Well, I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the 
week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly 
identified by careful re-readers of the books. "


Talisman: This one IS the Hufflepuff Cup, disguised as the TR Trophy.

Talisman, saying: so everybody had the hots for Lily, eh?  

And, after her account of his childhood,  don't you just know James 
is the "pampered prince" DD disparages at the end of OoP?

One theory to rearrange, but at least Snape isn't doomed! Yeah!
. 








From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 06:31:58 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:31:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HBP:  Hagrid and the Forbidden Forest
Message-ID: <20050723063158.33521.qmail@...>

Still

Doing 

This

But

I 

Can't

Believe 

Anyone 

Is 

Still 

On

Their

First 

Reading


So, I'm firing off random thoughts while rereading, and one thing which occurred to me yesterday
wsa the fact that the forest is becoming even more of a hostile environment.  Hagrid was always
the one person, with perhaps the exception of Dumbledore, who was never in any real danger there -
he was respected by the inhabitants, and essentially had a free pass.  This has been eroded over
the past couple of books - in OoP the centaurs turned on him, and in HBP so did the acromantulas,
after the death of Aragog.

So now there are vast areas of the forest Hagrid can no longer access safely.  Could this be of
significance, or is it just adding to the general theme of the environment around Hogwarts being
hostile?  I can't help thinking about the rumours about werewolves in Philosopher's Stone might
come into play.  I have a vision of them amassing forces in the forest, without Hagrid's
knowledge, biding their time before attacking the whole Hogwarts' population....

Catherine, who likes JKR's use of the word "culpable" in relation to Snape.


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 06:49:34 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:49:34 +1000
Subject: SPOILERS - Theory murder, or Interview Part 3
Message-ID: <20050723064934.GA9197@...>

How
many
spoilers
would
a
spoilsport
spoil
if
a
spoilsport
could
spoil
spoilers?

No use crying over spoilt spoilers!

But, time for laughs later, it's....

Interview Part 3

JKR has been on a spree this time: the gum wrappers mean nothing, Grindelwald
IS important, DD's family is important, Heir theories are dead, H/G was always
on, to say nothing of the fact that Ginny is a Seventh Daughter, more on The
Gleam, Snape has been loved, and she still won't say anything about Godric's
Hollow.

Just taking Grindelwald, because I recently reviewed List postings about him,
JKR says the 1945 date is not coincidental; there is a deliberate connection
between Muggle and Wizard wars there. And early List postings also assume this
and connect it with Riddle, particularly a series between Tom Wall and Jodel,
linking Grindelwald with Riddle's leaving school, killing his relatives and
becoming Voldemort. HBP dispenses with one of the theories, that it was
somehow Grindelwald & Co. that got Riddle to Hogwarts, but it doesn't mean
Riddle had no connection to him; it's even possible that Riddle saw how
Grindelwald was defeated and feared Dumbledore as a result as #30539 neatly
encapsulates.

I have to state my surprise that JKR was always going to have Harry/Ginny, it
appeared the secondmost unlikely ship, particularly because Ginny's character
development has seemed so invisible, a development by reference from others.
And how amusing that the Seventh Son theories are all wrong because they
couldn't accept Ginny!

Whose love has Snape denied? oooh....


ewe2, who sees a new armada in Theory Bay after the Storm.

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 07:09:04 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:09:04 -0000
Subject: Yeah, heh, Pretty Quiet Alright
Message-ID: <dbsqeg+ho6u@...>

N is whom he cares about, "Not us,"
I is someone who is set to fuss, 
E is for a policy Eternal,
L is for the Longest spoiler journal.

S is for Spoiling all our play,
A is where he has gone, Away.
V is for very Very far, 
E oh you Evil turquoise car.

U is who has to do it too,
S is for ... ... eh ... 

Snape [P]owns, baby--Wooooo!

(translation: rocks, rules, is the absolutely best thing Rowling's 
ever done, etc.)

Talisman: pausing in the hunt for Horcruxes to say: 

Hickengruendler, whom you may know from the main group, made a very 
good observation recently, elsewhere.

Regarding interpretation of Rowling's interview answers, he observed 
that, when, not long ago, she was asked if we would hear more from 
Regulus, she responded:

"Well, he's dead so he is pretty quiet these days."

Next thing you know we are staring at an important note signed RAB--
which she has pretty well verified is Regulus.

If you choose not to call this a lie, you must surely call it a 
deception.

It actually can be read as sarcasm.

I'm not rescinding anything I said in my last post.  But I am 
reminding you:
Rowling Obviously Lies Like An Inveterate Dumbledore (ROLLAID)

Talisman, who thinks if Lily was hot for Snape, she should have done 
something about it. You call yourself a witch?






From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 09:16:42 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:16:42 -0000
Subject: HBP:  Hagrid and the Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <20050723063158.33521.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbt1tq+4ob9@...>

S
P
A
C
E
D

O
U
T
--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman 
<catorman at y...> wrote:
> Still
> 
> Doing 
> 
> This
> 
> But
> 
> I 
> 
> Can't
> 
> Believe 
> 
> Anyone 
> 
> Is 
> 
> Still 
> 
> On
> 
> Their
> 
> First 
> 
> Reading
> 
> 
> So, I'm firing off random thoughts while rereading, and one thing 
which occurred to me yesterday
> wsa the fact that the forest is becoming even more of a hostile 
environment.  Hagrid was always
> the one person, with perhaps the exception of Dumbledore, who was 
never in any real danger there -
> he was respected by the inhabitants, and essentially had a free 
pass.  This has been eroded over
> the past couple of books - in OoP the centaurs turned on him, and 
in HBP so did the acromantulas,
> after the death of Aragog.
> 
> So now there are vast areas of the forest Hagrid can no longer 
access safely.  Could this be of
> significance, or is it just adding to the general theme of the 
environment around Hogwarts being
> hostile?  I can't help thinking about the rumours about werewolves 
in Philosopher's Stone might
> come into play.  I have a vision of them amassing forces in the 
forest, without Hagrid's
> knowledge, biding their time before attacking the whole Hogwarts' 
population....
> 
> Catherine, who likes JKR's use of the word "culpable" in relation 
to Snape.
> 
> 

Well ok she didn't stage a school play in yr 6 (rats!) but she does 
like MacBeth (which was my first choice if only she had dabbled in 
am. dram.), "I absolutely adore "Macbeth." It is possibly my 
favorite Shakespeare play." quoth she,  and isn't there something in 
MacBeth about forests...??

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 09:52:59 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:52:59 -0000
Subject: Potion in the Cave
In-Reply-To: <dbs7tg+brlh@...>
Message-ID: <dbt41r+ua5d@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> wrote:
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" <kking0731 at g...> 
> wrote:
> > My very first thoughts of Dumbledore's drinking of the potion in
> > the cave were that he was reliving the deaths of the inferri that
> > lay in the lake. You hear different responses with each swallow of
> > the potion. Dumbledore has never been afraid of death, so why
> > would he utter any such passage?  
> 
> Jen: 
> 
> My thought was Dumbledore sounded like a person trapped by an army 
> of Dementors and unable to break free. Dumbledore said he could 
> break out of Azkaban, but once he started drinking that potion he 
> was rendered unable to perform magic.
> 
> I think there's some evidence DD was indeed reliving his own worst 
> nightmares or greatest fears after drinking the potion in the cave 
> (from part 2 of Leaky Inteview):
>
> Milz:
> Interesting thought, Kneasy. If Dumbledore used Harry and Neville as
> the bait, then he definitely holds a great deal of responsibility for
> what happened to both families.
> 
> I guess then that this is part of the "Choices" theme in the book...
> 

All these are part of a whole, I think and it's something that crossed
my mind on the first reading of the Potion-drinking passage a week ago.

First thought is - it's poison, but slow acting.
Then comes the thought that Voldy would want any intruder available
for questioning, torment, a little light torture. Indeed the text states
as much. Fine. But in the meantime? Well, he wouldn't  want them to
have an easy  time of it would he? No lounging about complaining of
hot sweats and stomach cramps allowed. No, he'd want something
a little more cruel. Mental as well as physical degradation.

'Cos that's what DD demonstrates. He's seeing, feeling events that
are acutely distressing, his words are proof:

"It's all my fault, all my fault," he sobbed, "please make it stop, I know
I did wrong [...] Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please,
it's my fault, hurt me instead...[...] I  want to die! I want to die! Make it
stop! [...] KILL ME!"

Very nasty, whatever it is he's seeing.
It seemed possible that the potion was designed to show any intruder
just what was in store for them with the agony of past victims thrown 
in for demonstration purposes. But what if.... what if the potion dredges
events from the victim's own memories? 'Cos it could be that what DD
is suffering from is guilt and remorse.  A subtle and very personal torture.

So what does he have to feel guilty or remorseful about?
Well, if the Prophecy was used to bring Voldy out into the open, if he
knew or hoped that Voldy would follow up whispers of a very interesting
prediction, then he might feel guilty about what happened to the Potters
and the Longbottoms. His plan would more or less seal their fates - because
before the protection becomes active, somebody has to die. His plan would
require it. Friends, colleagues, even loved ones. But it looks like the only
feasible way to  get at Voldy. What a dilemma, what mental anguish that
would generate. Sacrifice a few  to save many. Choices, always choices.

I think there's a word missing at the end of the above quote. It should read
"KILL ME INSTEAD!"

Kneasy





From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 10:29:57 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:29:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Potion in the Cave
In-Reply-To: <dbt41r+ua5d@...>
Message-ID: <20050723102957.53189.qmail@...>



--- Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...> wrote:

And

He

Was 

Very 

Naughty

And

Forgot 

The 

Spoiler 

Space


> 'Cos that's what DD demonstrates. He's seeing, feeling events that
> are acutely distressing, his words are proof:
> 
> "It's all my fault, all my fault," he sobbed, "please make it stop, I know
> I did wrong [...] Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please,
> it's my fault, hurt me instead...[...] I  want to die! I want to die! Make it
> stop! [...] KILL ME!"
> 
> Very nasty, whatever it is he's seeing.
> It seemed possible that the potion was designed to show any intruder
> just what was in store for them with the agony of past victims thrown 
> in for demonstration purposes. But what if.... what if the potion dredges
> events from the victim's own memories? 'Cos it could be that what DD
> is suffering from is guilt and remorse.  A subtle and very personal torture.

Agreed with what you said - but when reading it put together like that, the effects of the potion
make me think it contains Essence of Dementor.

Catherine

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 10:40:37 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:40:37 -0000
Subject: Potion in the Cave
In-Reply-To: <20050723102957.53189.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbt6r5+i7vd@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Catherine Coleman <catorman at y...> wrote:
Whoops!
Catherine
Adminsters 
Deserved
Slapped
Wrist

> Agreed with what you said - but when reading it put together like that, the effects of the 
potion
> make me think it contains Essence of Dementor.
> 

Good thinking.
I  was wondering how such a potion could be brewed, but Dementors -
yes. This is the sort of stuff they'd ooze when squeezed - metaphorically
speaking. Misery, guilt, distress - and all in your own mind.

Kneasy





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 11:17:33 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:17:33 -0000
Subject: HPB: Scenery Chewing
Message-ID: <dbt90d+9353@...>

Let
There
Be
Spaces
In
Your
Togetherness
And
Let
The
Winds
Of Heaven
Dance
Between
You
-Kahlil Gibran

You know, maybe the Spinner's End scene seems off because
Snape and Narcissa are acting. It's a put up job. Narcissa has
no more idea of what The Plan is than Snape does, and they
cooked up this scene together in order to protect Draco. Think
about it -- If Snape were in on The Plan, wouldn't he be the 
natural one to teach Draco oclcumency? Likewise, if Narcissa
were an occlumens, she could have taught Draco, and if she isn't,
it would hardly be safe for her to know about the plan. She's
the parent of a Hogwarts student and could easily have 
contact with Dumbledore. 


All Narcissa knows is that the Dark Lord is planning to have 
Draco do *something* at Hogwarts, and  Draco
won't tell her what it is. Bella, however, must know The Plan, 
it could hardly be kept  from Draco's occlumency teacher, 
after all.

So Narcissa behaves like the heroine of a bad fanfic because
that's what she is. She's acting. And Snape's dialogue sounds 
flat and rehearsed because it *is*. 

Theory:  it was Dumbledore's idea that Snape
take the vow, so that the Dark Lord couldn't forbid him 
to  watch over Draco without losing his spy. Something of
a risk, but after all if Voldie wants Snape dead, it's not
like he hasn't got other ways to kill him.

But Narcissa's request  that Snape step in  if it seemed Draco was 
going to fail was unscripted, a little addition of her own. Hence the 
twitch. And Dumbledore's rueful dialogue about his grand plans 
being subject to even grander errors.


Pippin
euphoric at having dodged another bullet. Nothing in that 
interview  about ESE!Lupin being off the wall, thank goodness. Whew!






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 12:02:09 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:02:09 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS - Theory murder, or Interview Part 3
In-Reply-To: <20050723064934.GA9197@...>
Message-ID: <dbtbk1+avn8@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewe2 at 4...> wrote:


> 
> Interview Part 3
> 
> JKR has been on a spree this time: the gum wrappers mean nothing, Grindelwald
> IS important, DD's family is important, Heir theories are dead, H/G was always
> on, to say nothing of the fact that Ginny is a Seventh Daughter, more on The
> Gleam, Snape has been loved, and she still won't say anything about Godric's
> Hollow.
> 

Sounds good to me - mostly. Er ... some of it.
I'll be over there checking it out in just a minute.

> 
> Whose love has Snape denied? oooh....
> 

Lily's of course. 
See: 

http//groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77800

Kneasy






From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 12:01:43 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:01:43 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] HPB: Scenery Chewing
In-Reply-To: <dbt90d+9353@...>
References: <dbt90d+9353@...>
Message-ID: <20050723120143.GB9197@...>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2005 at 11:17:33AM -0000, pippin_999 wrote:
> Let
> There
> Be
> Spaces
> In
> Your
> Togetherness
> And
> Let
> The
> Winds
> Of Heaven
> Dance
> Between
> You
> -Kahlil Gibran


And
Bad
Stuff
Will
Happen
If
You
Haven't
Read
The
Dagnabbit
Book
Yet
- The Penguin

> 
> You know, maybe the Spinner's End scene seems off because
> Snape and Narcissa are acting. It's a put up job. Narcissa has
> no more idea of what The Plan is than Snape does, and they
> cooked up this scene together in order to protect Draco. Think
> about it -- If Snape were in on The Plan, wouldn't he be the 
> natural one to teach Draco oclcumency? Likewise, if Narcissa
> were an occlumens, she could have taught Draco, and if she isn't,
> it would hardly be safe for her to know about the plan. She's
> the parent of a Hogwarts student and could easily have 
> contact with Dumbledore. 

IMHO the reason Spinner's End seems off is because it is designed to mess with
OUR heads, and _not_ Harry's. None of the details of the scene can have any
bearing on Harry's understanding about any of the players; all he knows is
that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa, what the Vow was for and what
the Vow does. There is no Pettigrew, no Bellatrix, no fingers crossed or
unreadable stares. Seen this way, Spinner's End is designed purely and simply
to test _our_ previous Snape theories. It doesn't exactly let him off the
hook, but I'd be wary of reading more into it, particularly since JKR is less
than encouraging about a DD-Snape plan.

> All Narcissa knows is that the Dark Lord is planning to have 
> Draco do *something* at Hogwarts, and  Draco
> won't tell her what it is. Bella, however, must know The Plan, 
> it could hardly be kept  from Draco's occlumency teacher, 
> after all.
> 
> So Narcissa behaves like the heroine of a bad fanfic because
> that's what she is. She's acting. And Snape's dialogue sounds 
> flat and rehearsed because it *is*. 

It is possible that the whole scene is for Bella's benefit; even so I feel
that it would be largely to rule out possible future objections to the
continuing plot either way. It's a typical Christie "both ways I win"
scenario, which is why I distrust it.

> Theory:  it was Dumbledore's idea that Snape
> take the vow, so that the Dark Lord couldn't forbid him 
> to  watch over Draco without losing his spy. Something of
> a risk, but after all if Voldie wants Snape dead, it's not
> like he hasn't got other ways to kill him.
> 
> But Narcissa's request  that Snape step in  if it seemed Draco was 
> going to fail was unscripted, a little addition of her own. Hence the 
> twitch. And Dumbledore's rueful dialogue about his grand plans 
> being subject to even grander errors.

Certainly this is a possible reading of the situation, if we were given the
story by Snape, for example. How would it look from Bella's POV? If it was a
Pensieve scene, from whose POV?

Does anyone have an idea why Tonks was in the castle? That's bothering me

ewe2, who's finding Ginny less convincing after a reread.

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 12:33:14 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:33:14 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: SPOILERS - Theory murder, or Interview Part 3
In-Reply-To: <dbtbk1+avn8@...>
References: <20050723064934.GA9197@...> <dbtbk1+avn8@...>
Message-ID: <20050723123314.GD9197@...>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
I
N
D
A
H
O
U
S
E
!

On Sat, Jul 23, 2005 at 12:02:09PM -0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewe2 at 4...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Interview Part 3
> > 
> > JKR has been on a spree this time: the gum wrappers mean nothing, Grindelwald
> > IS important, DD's family is important, Heir theories are dead, H/G was always
> > on, to say nothing of the fact that Ginny is a Seventh Daughter, more on The
> > Gleam, Snape has been loved, and she still won't say anything about Godric's
> > Hollow.
> > 
> 
> Sounds good to me - mostly. Er ... some of it.
> I'll be over there checking it out in just a minute.
> 

Here's a Mugglenet link, they're a bit slower on Leakey:

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml

> > 
> > Whose love has Snape denied? oooh....
> > 
> 
> Lily's of course. 
> See: 
> 
> http//groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77800

Yes, but couldn't it have been Mum, Gran or Auntie? You can't be a good DE
with Mum's dreadful sweaters turning up at Christmas, Ron is dread warning of
that. And if Dudders is any example, doing horrible things to Muggles would be
a natural response to an Auntie Petunia.

And perhaps he's been spurning Narcissa or (more interestingly) Bellatrix.
Yes, Bellatrix, goaded by Snape's disinterest to find a Bigger Wizard than he,
suspicious of his every move to punish him, to prove she was better all along,
to stop that tiny voice inside that says she is not worthy of him, that he
doesn't notice her and never will. Perhaps Cissy's soft spot for him
infuriates her all the more, making Spinner's End a bit more kinky. Mmmm. This
idea I like, yes! If having him she cannot, make sure noone can she will hmmm!

yoda!ewe2, still eating sushi I am.

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 13:03:46 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:03:46 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbs4n5+oajl@...>
Message-ID: <dbtf7i+1bmc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...>
wrote:
> Milz:
> > Exactly, and since Snape was caught eavesdropping, then Dumbledore
> > should have figured out that Voldy would get that information,
> > eventually (I'm not implying that he knew Snape worked for V. at
> this
> > time, but rather that anyone eavesdropping could have passed that
> > information along to people who would tell V.)
> 
> Pippin:
> Yes, yes, but nothing in the prophecy says that it only applies to
> English wizards. Indeed, it rather sounds as if it doesn't: 'and
> he will have the power the Dark Lord knows not.' Only Voldemort
> could decide who are the people who have defied him three times, 
> and he has traveled far and wide, consorting with the worst of
> magical kind.
> 
True. However if that were the case, then Dumbledore and the OoP had
the responsibility to see that ALL magical babies born in late July
were monitored or at least hidden in a safe spot. As Kneasy pointed
out in his post, it doesn't matter if Dumbledore believed the prophecy
or not, what mattered was that Voldemort believed it or there was a
possibility that Voldemort would believe it. 

That marked all magical babies born in late July for death. It would
be unethical for Dumbledore and the Ministry to not offer protective
services to these families as soon as they knew of the Prophecy.
   
> Everyone was in mortal peril at the time -- not being the parents
> of the Chosen One was hardly a protection. Surely Dumbledore
> was already doing all he could to protect the members of the 
> Order and their families. 
> 

Yes, but being "The" child was even more dangerous and their families
should have had more protective measures than others in the time
between the Prophecy and the final outcome. Here's an analogy: there's
a child predator on the loose in your town. All children are in
danger. But this predator prefers redheaded children, of which 2
reside in your town. Who would be the most likely victim? The
redheaded boy across the street or the brown-haired child next door?
For the town authorities to not provide extra police patrols in those
areas where the redhaired children reside would be socially,
ethically, and morally irresponsible, imo.

> We haven't heard of any special protection Dumbledore 
> gave to Lily and James  except for the secret-keeper spell. 
> But that takes time to set up.
> 
> It was in effect at GP a month after Voldemort's return, but they
> could have started working on it as soon as Sirius returned to
> England, as much as ten months earlier. And that's not counting
> time to learn how to do the spell. Animagus takes five years,
> who knows how long it takes to learn how to cast Secret-keeper?
> 
> Pippin

According to PoA, the Fidelus Charm was performed on Pettigrew one
week before Halloween, 1981. Moreover, canon doesn't state how long it
takes to perform the Fidelus Charm. The Fidelus Charm has more in
common with the Unbreakable Vow than the Animagus transfiguration
because the Fidelus and the Unbreakable Vow work on the same basic
principles of trust and integrity. So, if the Unbreakable Vow took a
matter of minutes to do, I don't think the the Fidelus Charm would
have taken years.

Anyhow, it's still at least 1 year between the time of the prophecy
and Halloween 1981. There's still 2 children who fit the Prophecy
requirements. And the Potters go into hiding at Godric's Hollow in
late October 1981. The timing on that bugs me because it smacks of
incompetence unless there's a mistake in the canon and the prophecy
was really heard sometime in 1981. It also supports Kneasy's idea that
Dumbledore was using Harry or Neville as bait.

Also, another bit of information from Rowling's interview with Emerson
and Melissa http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml

Harry was christened while the Potters were in hiding. But again, that
makes me wonder about the Timeline in general. If the Potters were in
hiding during Harry's christening, it implies that Dumbledore did make
the necessary protective arrangements. BUT it still conflicts with the
info in PoA---the date the Potters went into hiding and the date that
Pettigrew was made secret keeper. Unfortunately, Rowling doesn't tell
us the month/year of Harry's christening, because that would clear
things up alittle bit more.

Milz 





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 13:05:57 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:05:57 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS - Theory murder, or Interview Part 3
In-Reply-To: <20050723123314.GD9197@...>
Message-ID: <dbtfbl+lu4q@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewe2 at 4...> wrote:
> 
> Yes, but couldn't it have been Mum, Gran or Auntie? You can't be a good DE
> with Mum's dreadful sweaters turning up at Christmas, Ron is dread warning of
> that. And if Dudders is any example, doing horrible things to Muggles would be
> a natural response to an Auntie Petunia.
> 
> And perhaps he's been spurning Narcissa or (more interestingly) Bellatrix.
> Yes, Bellatrix, goaded by Snape's disinterest to find a Bigger Wizard than he,
> suspicious of his every move to punish him, to prove she was better all along,
> to stop that tiny voice inside that says she is not worthy of him, that he
> doesn't notice her and never will. Perhaps Cissy's soft spot for him
> infuriates her all the more, making Spinner's End a bit more kinky. Mmmm. This
> idea I like, yes! If having him she cannot, make sure noone can she will hmmm!
> 

Could be Mum - just look at the underwear she provided him with.
Obviously she was never one of the traditional types - "Always wear clean 
underwear in case you get run over by a dragon." Wise words voiced by many 
a caring mater.

Bella. Not surprised if he spurned her advances. Cor! Bathtime with a sadistic 
psycho would make one very wary of the loofah. And what she can do with 
a rubber duck is nobody's business. Brings tears to the eyes.

But there is another - she made an appearance as a possibility for Snape!Mate
in Blackwidower - Florence. A brief cameo  role in GoF - then nothing. Been
half-expecting her to turn up again ever since. His helpmeet in times of trouble,
proud mother of Snape!Son and too nosy for her own good. Bound to back-fire
on her one day - and it does. Big time. Or maybe not, maybe she and S!S were
used as a means of revenge and retribution by Voldy. 
Poor Sevvy. All alone again.
Big "Ahhh" please.

Kneasy






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 14:41:51 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:41:51 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbtf7i+1bmc@...>
Message-ID: <dbtkvf+lkuv@...>

Life,
Atom of that
Infinite Space
That stretcheth
Twixt the Here
and There
-Sir Richard Francis Burton
[1821-1890]


> > Pippin:
> > Yes, yes, but nothing in the prophecy says that it only applies to
> > English wizards. Indeed, it rather sounds as if it doesn't: 'and
> > he will have the power the Dark Lord knows not.' Only Voldemort
> > could decide who are the people who have defied him three times, 
> > and he has traveled far and wide, consorting with the worst of
> > magical kind.

Milz:
> True. However if that were the case, then Dumbledore and the OoP had
the responsibility to see that ALL magical babies born in late July
were monitored or at least hidden in a safe spot. As Kneasy pointed
out in his post, it doesn't matter if Dumbledore believed the
prophecy or not, what mattered was that Voldemort believed it
or there was a possibility that Voldemort would believe it. 

Pippin:
What matters, according to Dumbledore, is that prophecies come true
only so far as people choose to act on them.  If Dumbledore panics and
tries to hide every baby (magic or not;  Voldemort is terrified that
one among those whom he has oppressed will rise against him) then 
Voldemort is likely to think that _every_  baby born at the end of
July must be destroyed (shades of Herod and King Arthur.) 

Dumbledore will be responsible for a massacre. 

On the other hand, if Dumbledore sits tight and lets Voldemort stew
over which child is the One, then they'll all be safe, or as safe as
any child can be in such times, until Voldie makes up his mind.  Of 
course Voldemort could slaughter them all just to be on the safe
side, but not if he wanted  to use the death of the One to make a 
horseblanket. 

Milz
> According to PoA, the Fidelus Charm was performed on Pettigrew one
 week before Halloween, 1981. Moreover, canon doesn't state how long
it takes to perform the Fidelus Charm. 

The Fidelus Charm has more in  common with the Unbreakable Vow 
than the Animagus transfiguration because the Fidelus and the 
Unbreakable Vow work on the same basic principles of trust and
integrity. So, if the Unbreakable Vow took a matter of minutes to do, 
I don't think the Fidelus Charm would have taken years.

Pippin:
Interesting analogy, but it doesn't hold up, I'm afraid.

"An immensely complex spell" [Professor Flitwick] said
squeakily,"involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a
single living soul." PoA ch 10

"We've set up headquarters somewhere undetectable. It's taken a
while" --Lupin OOP ch 3

Milz: 
> Anyhow, it's still at least 1 year between the time of the prophecy
> and Halloween 1981. 

Pippin:
Which seems to be the outside limit of anybody hiding from Voldemort.
But Fidelius isn't the only way to do it. Karkaroff and Slughorn were
both on the run for about a year. I think James and Lily went into
hiding when the spy informed Dumbledore whom Voldemort had chosen. 
The choice was not obvious since Dumbledore found it credible that
Snape had no idea that Voldemort would conclude that the prophecy 
applied to Lily and James. 

It is still a big secret what L&J  did for the Order, so it's also
possible they were already in hiding because of that, and not because
of the prophecy per se.

Pippin





From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 15:08:08 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:08:08 -0000
Subject: Curses, foiled again (might be slightly spoilery)
Message-ID: <dbtmgo+5jfe@...>

Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble
Burble


<Neri, who has just finished reading Part Three
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview3.html
is spewing out *lots* of TBAY water and trying not to listen to the
annoying sounds coming from the other room, where Faith is having a
colossal, magnificent, uncontrolled laughing fit.>

OK! OK! You told me this would happen and I should have listened to
you! You were right, yes, yes, you've said it since the day you were
born! Happy now?  

And when you finish laughing on my expense, would you come down here
for a moment? I have something I need to discuss with you. You see, I
have this theory...


Neri  






From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 16:02:49 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:02:49 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbtkvf+lkuv@...>
Message-ID: <dbtpn9+f7lq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
>> 
> > > Pippin:
> > > Yes, yes, but nothing in the prophecy says that it only applies 
to
> > > English wizards. Indeed, it rather sounds as if it doesn't: 'and
> > > he will have the power the Dark Lord knows not.' Only Voldemort
> > > could decide who are the people who have defied him three 
times, 
> > > and he has traveled far and wide, consorting with the worst of
> > > magical kind.
> 
> Milz:
> > True. However if that were the case, then Dumbledore and the OoP 
had
> the responsibility to see that ALL magical babies born in late July
> were monitored or at least hidden in a safe spot. As Kneasy pointed
> out in his post, it doesn't matter if Dumbledore believed the
> prophecy or not, what mattered was that Voldemort believed it
> or there was a possibility that Voldemort would believe it. 
> 
> Pippin:
> What matters, according to Dumbledore, is that prophecies come true
> only so far as people choose to act on them.  If Dumbledore panics 
and
> tries to hide every baby (magic or not;  Voldemort is terrified that
> one among those whom he has oppressed will rise against him) then 
> Voldemort is likely to think that _every_  baby born at the end of
> July must be destroyed (shades of Herod and King Arthur.) 
> 
> Dumbledore will be responsible for a massacre. 
> 
Unless other children were born in late July whose parents deifed 
Voldemort 3 times, there were only 2 babies in the UK (and perhaps 
the world) that fit the prophecy description: Neville Longbottom and 
Harry Potter. The prophecy is pretty specific in that regard.  

Voldemort didn't panic and try to kill Neville too. He choose Harry. 
Why? Dumbledore suspects that Voldie picked the child who was his 
birth-equal, because Voldie "saw himself in Harry". That leads to the 
questions of how did Voldie know the identities of these babies and 
how did he know their parentage in order to pick one? In other words, 
Voldie had enough information about the July babies in order to 
narrow it down to the Longbottoms and the Potters. 

> On the other hand, if Dumbledore sits tight and lets Voldemort stew
> over which child is the One, then they'll all be safe, or as safe as
> any child can be in such times, until Voldie makes up his mind.  Of 
> course Voldemort could slaughter them all just to be on the safe
> side, but not if he wanted  to use the death of the One to make a 
> horseblanket. 
>

That's what I think Dumbledore did: No one 
knows who Voldie will pick, so let's just keep our fingers crossed 
that he'll take a long time deciding? It's irresponsible. 

The most obvious choice would have been Neville--the pure blood. 
Voldie and the DEs thought the pure bloods were superior to the half-
blood or muggle-born. So a pure blood would most likely have the 
power to destroy Voldie than a half-blood. But then, a pure blood is 
too obvious a choice, so a half-blood would make more sense also. 
See, Voldie could have easily decided to kill both Neville and Harry--
to cover all bases. Therefore to not act on the prophecy immediately 
and protect these two families would be irresponsible. And that's why 
the timeline doesn't make sense. If the Prophecy occured 16 years 
before the second half of the school year in OoP, then Dumbledore 
knew about it at most for 1 year. Rowling's recent interview says 
that Harry was christened while the Potters were in hiding but gives 
no dates. YET, PoA gives the date of the "going into hiding" shortly 
before Pettigrew was made Secret Keepr in late October 1981.   

> Milz
> > According to PoA, the Fidelus Charm was performed on Pettigrew one
>  week before Halloween, 1981. Moreover, canon doesn't state how long
> it takes to perform the Fidelus Charm. 
> 
> The Fidelus Charm has more in  common with the Unbreakable Vow 
> than the Animagus transfiguration because the Fidelus and the 
> Unbreakable Vow work on the same basic principles of trust and
> integrity. So, if the Unbreakable Vow took a matter of minutes to 
do, 
> I don't think the Fidelus Charm would have taken years.
> 
> Pippin:
> Interesting analogy, but it doesn't hold up, I'm afraid.
> 
> "An immensely complex spell" [Professor Flitwick] said
> squeakily,"involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a
> single living soul." PoA ch 10
> 
That still doesn't say that it takes days, months, or years to do the 
spell. It only says it's complex. Making fudge brownies from scratch 
is 
more complex than making fudge brownies from a box mix, but both can 
be 
done within the 2 hours. Complex is describes the degree of 
difficulty: it's not a description of time.

> "We've set up headquarters somewhere undetectable. It's taken a
> while" --Lupin OOP ch 3
> 
Here's the full version of that quote:

"Not the Burrow, no, "said Lupin, motioining Harry toward the 
kitchen; the little knot of wizards followed, all still eyeing Harry 
curiously. "Too risky. We've set up headquarters somewhere 
undetectable. It's takes a while..."

No mention at all about a Fidelus Charm being used. In fact, it could 
refer to a charm or spell that makes objects undetectable.

> Milz: 
> > Anyhow, it's still at least 1 year between the time of the 
prophecy
> > and Halloween 1981. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Which seems to be the outside limit of anybody hiding from 
Voldemort.
> But Fidelius isn't the only way to do it. Karkaroff and Slughorn 
were
> both on the run for about a year. I think James and Lily went into
> hiding when the spy informed Dumbledore whom Voldemort had chosen. 
> The choice was not obvious since Dumbledore found it credible that
> Snape had no idea that Voldemort would conclude that the prophecy 
> applied to Lily and James. 
> 

Again, why wait until October 1981 to go into hiding when Dumbledore 
knew about the threat for at least 1 year? As much as I hate to sound 
like Tom Ridge and Rumsfeld, it was a credible and specific threat to 
the children born in late July whose parents defied Voldie 3 times. 
What Dumbledore did was to not do anything until he 
knew 'absolutely'  Voldie was essentially knocking on the doors of 
Godric's Hollow looking for the Potters---too little too late and 
abjectly irresponsible on Dumbledore's and the Ministry's part. And 
that's why the timeline bothers me: it makes it appear that 
Dumbledore sat on the information until the last minute (which makes 
Kneasy's idea of Dumbledore using the children as bait even more 
intriguing)

> It is still a big secret what L&J  did for the Order, so it's also
> possible they were already in hiding because of that, and not 
because
> of the prophecy per se.
> 

That's a possibility too. But again, my problem lies with the 
timeline, because it doesn't make sense pragmatically, ethically, 
strategically---unless Dumbledore was using Neville and Harry as 
bait, which raises questions about Dumbledore's ethics.

Milz





From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 16:46:31 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:46:31 -0000
Subject: Rowling Interview: Snape. Love.
Message-ID: <dbts97+pjaq@...>

This was in the 3 part Rowling interview at Mugglenet and Leaky Cauldron

"MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. 
Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than 
Voldemort, who never has. Okay, one more each!"

Okay, I know the Snape-Lily advocates will rush in and say "AHA! Snape 
hated James because Lily loved James". And I know, there will be people 
who think the love is a reference to maternal love. But...

Back in GoF Chapter 30, The Penseive. Dumbledore shows Harry a memory 
of Bertha Jorkin as a school girl at Hogwarts. Bertha was at school 
with the Marauders.

"He put a hex on me, Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, 
sir I only said I'd see him kissing Florence behind the greenhouses 
last Thursday.."

I've always wondered who Bertha had seen kissing Florence behind the 
greenhouses that Thursday and had been so angered that he put a hex on 
her. And for that matter who was Florence? 

That scene appeared to be out of place in GoF. Sure earlier we are 
informed by Sirius that Bertha had a penchant for gossip, but I've 
always have wondered why Rowling included that Bertha penseive scene.

So who was/is Florence? Is she just a red herring, or is she Snape's 
lost love?

Milz





From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 19:30:00 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:30:00 -0000
Subject: Who named the HBP
Message-ID: <dbu5ro+8eq9@...>

If you haven't read the book by now, then what are you doing reading this?


I don't follow the "big" group anymore, so I don't know if any of this has been mentioned 
before: Has anyone considered whether it was Severus who actually first applied the title of 
HBP to himself, or if it might have been given to him by another? 

Several possibilities seem to come to mind:
1. A rather cruel mother who reminded him that he was not as good as she, and never 
could be.
2. A mother who rather despairing acknowledges she became a blood traitor to her family, 
and resents her son's existence.
3. Some other holder of the Prince name who speaks disparagingly of the mother's 
"mistake."
4. Some other true/pure blood who speaks attempts to humiliate the mother and/or 
Severus by applying the moniker. 
5. Severus's father who applies it disparagingly towards his son, in part seeking to 
distance himself from Severus when he learns the boy too has magical ability.

I'm just curious about this as it seems to influence the meaning of Snape identifying with 
that title--does it make him feel better or worse about himself?





From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 19:59:14 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:59:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Who named the HBP
In-Reply-To: <dbu5ro+8eq9@...>
Message-ID: <20050723195914.71369.qmail@...>

Spoiler space (yeah, right...)











--- "Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kumayama at ...> wrote:

> Has anyone considered whether it was Severus who actually
> first applied the title of 
> HBP to himself, or if it might have been given to him by another? 


Or...

6.  Lily Evans, as part of a private joke between the two of them. 
It seems more of a kid thing, with the rather heavy-handed punning. 


Magda


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 22:45:00 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:45:00 -0000
Subject: It's That Man Again: issues of trust  (was: Re: My HBP Review )
In-Reply-To: <20050722110358.96500.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dbuh9c+h04n@...>

Magda wrote:
> Actually I think Snape does know all about the horsecrutches and 
that throughout Book 7 Harry will find clues about their remaining
locations with surprising ease as Snape will be able to funnel info
from Voldemort to Harry indirectly, of course.
> 

Dungrollin:
I think just about the only way I could accept an ESE!Snape would be 
if it's revenge-driven, and Harry keeps finding notes where he 
expects Horseradish which read "You'll have to do better than this 
if you want to kill him before I do, Potter."


> Dungrollin:
> > He's *not* ESE. It would be rubbish. Have a badge.
> > D.E.L.U.S.I.O.N.A.L.
> > (Death Eaters Laughably Unsuspicious, Snape Is Obviously Not A
> > Louse)
> 
Magda:
> If you have an extra one, I'll wear it with pride.
> 

I'll leave the box here, help yourselves.

Dungrollin





From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 23:23:08 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:23:08 -0500
Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories
Message-ID: <000901c58fdf$573817a0$8158aacf@...>

I had two questions. Why didn't Dumbledore just *tell* Harry why he could
trust Snape? And how, now, can Harry possibly learn, and *believe in,* the
reason Dumbledore trusted Snape? I think the only person who knew,
Dumbledore, made it impossible for himself to tell anyone. I think it is
only Dumbledore, still, who has a reasonable chance of making Harry
understand. And I think it will still be Dumbledore who tells him.

I grant you, death is a bit of an obstacle to communication. But given all
that we now know of Pensieves, I think I can see an explanation for why
Dumbledore did not tell him (or anyone else, evidently) and the way for
Dumbledore to give this last bit of information to Harry.

Here's my summation of Pensieve knowledge (forgive the caps, please--I
cannot underline or otherwise set off for ease of reading):

(1) PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. Canon
supports this:

Dumbledore says in GoF: (p. 597) [Dumbledore is speaking]:

   "'I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply
have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind.' ...
   "'At these times,' said Dumbledore, indicating the stone basin, 'I use
the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours
them into the basin, and examines them at one's leisure.'"

To me, this sounds like it's *removal* of a memory or thought, rather than a
*copy.*

This is borne out by Snape's apparently "defensive" use of the Pensieve in
OoP, removing memories so Harry cannot accidentally "see" them, and by the
terms Dumbledore uses in reference to other people's memories in HBP:

(p. 363) Dumbledore, speaking of Morfin's memory, uses the term "collect."
(pp. 489-491) Harry speaking to Slughorn, uses the term "give." This does
not sound like a copy. This sounds like you take the actual item out of the
person's head.

The obvious corollary I draw is: if it's not in your head, *you don't know
it anymore.*

(2) MEMORIES SHOW THE TRUTH (AS IN, THE REALITY OF WHAT HAPPENED). And
unless it's done very skillfully, a viewer can tell when a memory has been
tampered with (HBP, p. 371). This is borne out by info in Part 3 of JKR's
interview, up on the Leaky Cauldron (quoted below):

MA: ..."Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of
the person they belong to?"

JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because
Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want
to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it
together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.
...
JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn't it?
Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you,
so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't
notice the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all
of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know
you remember are all in there somewhere.

(3) MEMORIES CAN BE STORED. The memories that Dumbledore and Harry view are
in bottles; Harry collects Slughorn's memory in a bottle. Dumbledore has
evidently been collecting memories for years, keeping them, bringing them
out when needed, and examining them for clues.

(4) MEMORIES CAN OUTLIVE THEIR OWNERS. The first memory that Dumbledore and
Harry view in HBP belongs to Bob Ogden, who has died (p. 198).

So what does this mean? Two things.

ONE--I think the reason Dumbledore never told Harry why he trusts Snape is
that he *can't,* meaning he honestly is not able to. I believe he *doesn't
know,* because he has taken that memory out of his head, as insurance,
because he knew it was quite likely he'd be facing Voldemort. I think, to be
safe, Dumbledore would allow himself to remember that he trusts Snape, and
that he has a good reason--but not the reason itself.  Because if Voldemort
managed to "see" the first two things, he would think only that Snape was
damn good at fooling Dumbledore, which would *strengthen* Snape's position
with Voldemort. But if Voldemort ever managed to see the "ironclad" reason
*why* Dumbledore trusted Snape? That would doom Snape.

So that memory is not in Dumbledore's head. He does not know the actual
reason at the moment--and won't, until he puts the memory back--and so
cannot tell it to Harry. I think this explains the following scene (p. 549,
HBP) [Harry is speaking]:

   "'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized
how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be
the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --' ...
   "'...Professor...how can you be *sure* Snape's on our side?'
   "Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he were
trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, 'I am sure. I
trust Severus Snape completely.'"

Maybe Dumbledore wasn't making up his mind; maybe he didn't have that
information to give. The timeframe of this exchange is that Dumbledore has
called Harry to his office to go try to find and destroy a Horcrux. This is
a time I would expect Dumbledore to have removed any memories that could
endanger the cause. So he told Harry all he honestly could at that
moment--and what he could tell him matched what Snape has told Voldemort and
the DEs: Snape spun a tale of remorse and Dumbledore trusts him completely.

TWO--All this, then, means to me that there's a memory in a bottle somewhere
that shows that ironclad reason that so convinced Dumbledore. I predict the
existence of this, and that Harry will see it in Book 7, and it will show
him the truth; in a form he cannot argue with, from a source he cannot
disbelieve.

When he sees it; what he has already done based on incomplete knowledge and
belief of Snape's treachery; who may also see it--these are variables that
have great plot and character potential.

Thoughts?

~Amandageist




From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 00:31:52 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:31:52 -0000
Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories
In-Reply-To: <000901c58fdf$573817a0$8158aacf@...>
Message-ID: <dbunho+d7b2@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> wrote:
> I had two questions. Why didn't Dumbledore just *tell* Harry why he could
> trust Snape? And how, now, can Harry possibly learn, and *believe in,* the
> reason Dumbledore trusted Snape? I think the only person who knew,
> Dumbledore, made it impossible for himself to tell anyone. I think it is
> only Dumbledore, still, who has a reasonable chance of making Harry
> understand. And I think it will still be Dumbledore who tells him.

Now Lyn (and further interspersed below),
Agreed, but for the" impossible" part.
> 
>snip> 
> 
> 
> (1) PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. Canon
> supports this:
> 
> Dumbledore says in GoF: (p. 597) [Dumbledore is speaking]:
> 
>    "'I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply
> have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind.' ...
>    "'At these times,' said Dumbledore, indicating the stone basin, 'I use
> the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours
> them into the basin, and examines them at one's leisure.'"
> 
> To me, this sounds like it's *removal* of a memory or thought, rather than a
> *copy.*
> 
> This is borne out by Snape's apparently "defensive" use of the Pensieve in
> OoP, removing memories so Harry cannot accidentally "see" them, and by the
> terms Dumbledore uses in reference to other people's memories in HBP:
> 
> (p. 363) Dumbledore, speaking of Morfin's memory, uses the term "collect."
> (pp. 489-491) Harry speaking to Slughorn, uses the term "give." This does
> not sound like a copy. This sounds like you take the actual item out of the
> person's head.
> 
> The obvious corollary I draw is: if it's not in your head, *you don't know
> it anymore.*

Lyn now:
Yes, but then there is this little problem of Slughorn's memory. DD has the one copy, but 
another unaltered copy still resides in Slughorn's head. Either this is a Flint, or memories 
can exist in both places if the owner so chooses.

<snip>

> > ONE--I think the reason Dumbledore never told Harry why he trusts Snape is
> that he *can't,* meaning he honestly is not able to. I believe he *doesn't
> know,* because he has taken that memory out of his head, 

<snip>

> Maybe Dumbledore wasn't making up his mind; maybe he didn't have that
> information to give. The timeframe of this exchange is that Dumbledore has
> called Harry to his office to go try to find and destroy a Horcrux. This is
> a time I would expect Dumbledore to have removed any memories that could
> endanger the cause. So he told Harry all he honestly could at that
> moment--and what he could tell him matched what Snape has told Voldemort and
> the DEs: Snape spun a tale of remorse and Dumbledore trusts him completely.

Lyn now:
But, at a  minimum, he still knew he had memories stored, and what they were (how else 
would one ever recover them, or go back to peruse them, and how else would Snape know, 
and he did indicate he knew, what Harry was seeing of Snape's own memories).   And it DD 
knew what that the reason was stored, and it likely was in his office as that is where all the 
other  memories have been stored, he could have pulled out the bottle right then and 
there, just like he did for the other  memories. Hence, I still believe there is much more to 
why DD doesn't let Harry know.

> 
> TWO--All this, then, means to me that there's a memory in a bottle somewhere
> that shows that ironclad reason that so convinced Dumbledore. I predict the
> existence of this, and that Harry will see it in Book 7, and it will show
> him the truth; in a form he cannot argue with, from a source he cannot
> disbelieve.

Lyn now:
I think a number of folks have speculated on this, I being one, and I agree this is a likely, 
indeed, the most likely, scenario.
> 
> When he sees it; what he has already done based on incomplete knowledge and
> belief of Snape's treachery; who may also see it--these are variables that
> have great plot and character potential.

Lyn now:

Indeed! (who regrets snipping so much of such a nicely argued post)







From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 02:37:05 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:37:05 -0700
Subject: more replies, all spoilery -- Neil, are you okay?
Message-ID: <42E2FED1.9020506@...>

In lieu of
spoiler space,
I could rant
about my
lousy
cable broadband Internet connection
that lets me
have e-mail and Y!M
but refuses
to let me
access the Web
(i.e. Y!Groups)
for hours and hours
and hours and hours
AND HOURS AND HOURS
at a time,
during this vital
new!canon
period.
Whose
fault
is
it:
Comcast servers,
the physical bit of cable
for my apartment building,
or my cable modem?

While waiting for my computer to deign to show me 2496 of 2496, I
stumbled upon a better spoiler space: I decided to read BLACK DAHLIA
AVENGER by Steve Hodel. The epitaph (pro-taph? resident classicist?) is

"When I despair, I remember that all throughout history the way of Truth
and Love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a
time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of
it, always. -- Mahatma Gandhi"

As a devout S/R shipper, I suggested days and days ago that
Polyjuice!Tonks is NotDead!Sirius.

Around the same time that I facetiously suggested that RAB was Ronald
Arthur Bilius Weasley, grandfather of our Ron and father of our Arthur
(whom JKR on her site said was one of three brothers).

But I just now thought it might be Professor Binns, and the reason he's
a ghost is he stayed around to see Voldemort killed.

Jo mooseming wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2271 :

<< Can you *do* anything with Sectumsempra? Any ideas on the linguistic
origins of this particular incantation. >>

'sempra' is 'always', like Semper Fidelis or Rictusempra. 'Sect' is to
cut or to divide, like 'dissect' and 'section'.   Like Mike the Goat
(whose post IIRC cited the word 'sectarian'), I was misled by the
notation 'For Enemies' to suspect that it was a spell to split two
friends from each other, turning them into enemies of each other.

Amy Z wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2307 :

<< In all those ways, she looked like the same old Hermione to me,
though she's getting more mature. In what ways do you see her acting
out of character? >>

Tim said 'She's out of character!' when she returned from her first
Ancient Runes class  complaining about the amount of homework that had
been assigned. (But I thought she was worrying rather than complaining,
and worrying IS in her character.)

Dungrollin quoted in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2346 :

<< "Well, then it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should
have seen what he [Harry] gave me, fist lesson, the Draught of
Living Death - never had a student produce finer on a first attempt,
I don't think even you, Severus -" >>

That reminds me, in PS/SS  "asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion
so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." Not the Draught
of Living Death was a complicated mixture of many ingredients prepared
in diverse ways.

Catherine wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2392 :

<< H/H hints abound as well - it is *never* made crystal clear until
well after the first 200 pages of HBP. Up until that point, I would have
said the most likely outcome was Penny's FITD. >>

I TOTALLY AGREE!!

Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2451 :

<< It didn't shock me when Hermione cheated to get Ron a place on the
Quidditch team >>

No, but it was bloody HYPOCRITICAL (capslock!Catlady *sigh*) from the
girl who confiscated the Fanged Frisbee (you, Pippin, may know Alan
Frisbie) and ranted at Harry about assumed FF potion cheating. It had
not occurred to me before that her flaws include hypocrisy.

Ewe2 Penguin wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2476 :

<< Whose love has Snape denied? oooh.... >>

Maybe he hasn't denied anyone's love. Maybe he was loved by his mother.
Maybe he was loved, albeit inefficiently, by his abusive father. I think
he was loved (paternally, not sexually) by Dumbledore, altho' not
exclusively enough to satiate him.

Dungrollin wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2494 :

<< Harry keeps finding notes where he expects Horseradish which read
"You'll have to do better than this if you want to kill him before I do,
Potter." >>

I don't expect it, but I love it! I wish I had something to say about
the Horkusses.

I am persuaded by Amanda's theory in #2395.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
R ighteous
A ttractive
V ictorious
E rudite
N atural
C lassic
L ovable
A dept
W ise
------------------------------------------------------------------

         /\ /\                                          ___  ___
          + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ )
        >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ /
                                                         \ () /
                    ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  /
                    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/
                    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                   _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                  ((('   (((-(((''  ((((







From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 03:22:15 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:22:15 -0000
Subject: Possibilities surrounding nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape & DD)
Message-ID: <dbv1h7+t53a@...>

I've been thinking a lot about NONVERBAL spells lately.

On pp. 178-179 (US ed.), we attend the first DADA class of the year,
wherein the following occurs:

"
you are, I believe, complete novices in the use of nonverbal
spells. What is the advantage of a nonverbal spell?"

Hermione's hand shot into the air. 
 "Very well ? Miss Granger?"

"Your adversary has no warning about what kind of magic you're about
to perform," said Hermione, "which gives you a split-second
advantage."

"
 correct in essentials. Yes, those who progress to using magic
without shouting incantations gain an element of surprise in their
spell-casting. Not all wizards can do this, of course; it is a
question of concentration and mind power which some" ? his gaze
lingered maliciously upon Harry once more ? "lack."


 "You will now divide," Snape went on, "into pairs. One partner
will attempt to jinx the other *without speaking.* The other will
attempt to repel the jinx *in equal silence.* Carry on."

On p. 217, we learn that:
"Nonverbal spells were now expected, not only in Defense Against the
Dark Arts, but in Charms and Transfiguration, too. Harry frequently
looked over at his classmates in the common room or at mealtimes to
see them purple in the face and straining as through they had
overdosed on U-No-Poo; but he knew that they were really struggling
to make spells work without saying incantations aloud."

On p. 238, Harry discovers the "Levicorpus (nvbl)" spell in the Half-
Blood Prince's potions textbook. Harry assumes that "nvbl" stands
for nonverbal and decides to try, without much expectation of
success, speaking the spell internally. It works, and Ron is
awakened by being jerked upside down "as though an invisible hook
had hoisted him up by the ankle."

All this emphasis on nonverbal spells has me thinking. Since the
textbook was Snape's
 since Snape is now one of the teachers
stressing nonverbal spells
 I'm assuming managing nonverbal spells
is something Snape is fairly good at himself.

Now, there are all kinds of questions for me about nonverbal spells
in general. Can *any* spell or incantation be successfully
performed nonverbally if the caster is talented enough? Are there
only certain spells which can be successfully "nonverbalized"?
Are there, as the Levicorpus notation might indicate, some spells
which are DESIGNED to be accomplished *only* as nonverbal spells?
OR is it simply that THE DARKER THE DEED, THE GREATER THE NEED to be
able to perform the spell nonverbally? (You know what I mean??)
I mean, Harry attempted Levicorpus the first time as a nonverbal
spell and succeeded. Would it have worked if he'd spoken the spell
aloud? I don't THINK we know the answer to this, do we?

All of this raises an even greater question for me, re: Snape on the
astronomy tower with DD. And here is that question: IF one is
accomplished at performing nonverbal spells, is it possible to
perform a nonverbal spell while *simultaneously* speaking the
incantation for another spell? IOW, can a highly talented wizard
manage to concentrate so hard upon a nonverbal incantation, that he
SUCCEEDS at it, even while speaking another spell which does NOT
come to fruition?

Could Snape have been performing a spell *other* than AK, while
speaking an "Avada Kedavra" which did not take because it
was "overpowered" by whatever nonverbal spell Snape was
concentrating on?

Yes, I know ? the jet of light emanating from Snape's wand *was*
green, as one would expect with an AK. But
 is it possible that he
was thinking something else, actually performing something else? Is
there any other spell which produces a green jet of light?

Not saying I buy this at all. Actually, I'm in the camp which
believes Snape was following DD's orders in killing him ? to
simultaneously save Draco from murder, release DD into the death
which was coming anyway from the potion, and to save Snape from
breaking his Unbreakable Vow. But many of us suspect some mutual
legillimency in that brief stare between DD & Snape. Could there
have been instruction to Snape about what to do in that moment? I
like the possibility of this.

Any thoughts??

Siriusly Snapey Susan

(forgive the cross-posting if you're also at HPfGU)







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 23 17:10:00 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:10:00 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbtpn9+f7lq@...>
Message-ID: <dbttl8+l9ut@...>

"The destiny of mankind is not
decided by material computation.
When great causes are on the move
in the world...we learn that we are spirits,
not animals, and that something is going 
on in space and time, and beyond space
and time, which, whether we like it or
not, spells duty,"
--Winston Churchill, June 16,1941


Milz:

> Unless other children were born in late July whose parents deifed 
> Voldemort 3 times, there were only 2 babies in the UK (and perhaps 
> the world) that fit the prophecy description: Neville Longbottom
and  Harry Potter. The prophecy is pretty specific in that regard.  
> 
Pippin:
It's only specific in retrospect. After all, who decided what
constitutes defying the Dark Lord?  So far we've seen  the Minister
of Magic refuse to hand over power to him, Dumbledore refuse to 
grant him the DADA position, (did you notice the acronym has made 
its way into canon? ) Karkaroff refuse to go back to him, DE's try to
kill Harry in defiance of Voldemort's wishes,  Slughorn hiding out,
and 
so on. 

There's nothing in the prophecy either  to say that the one who 
vanquishes Voldemort is going to be a white wizard. The DE's think 
only a greater Dark wizard can do it. Voldemort might have 
started looking for traitors in his own camp.

Milz:
> That's what I think Dumbledore did: No one 
> knows who Voldie will pick, so let's just keep our fingers crossed 
> that he'll take a long time deciding? It's irresponsible. 


Pippin:
Was it irresponsible of Sam Gamgee to stay with Frodo instead
of going back to the Shire after he'd seen the vision of its 
destruction in the Mirror of Galadriel? 
Her words to Sam could fit right into what Dumbledore was 
trying to tell Harry, "Remember that the Mirror shows many things, 
and not  all have yet come to pass.
Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions 
turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is 
dangerous as a guide of deeds." Substitute _prophecy_ for
Mirror and you've got Dumbledore's attitude in a nutshell.

The only responsible way to interpret a prophecy in the Potterverse
is to do exactly what you would have done if you'd never heard of 
it. The only reason it's about Harry is that Voldemort has decided
that it is. Would Dumbledore have sent James and Lily out of
the fray if he'd never heard the prophecy? Of course not. Once
Voldemort had heard it and decided it applied to them, that's another
story.

It's canon that Fidelius was used to hide Grimmauld Place. Ch 37
of OOP, Dumbledore explains that Kreacher could not reveal the
whereabouts because he was not Secret-keeper, and Snape also
gives this as the reason he  couldn't do it in HPB.

Pippin





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 05:16:25 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:16:25 -0000
Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories
In-Reply-To: <000901c58fdf$573817a0$8158aacf@...>
Message-ID: <dbv879+ftpk@...>

Amandageist:
> So what does this mean? Two things.
> 
> ONE--I think the reason Dumbledore never told Harry why he trusts
> Snape is that he *can't,* meaning he honestly is not able to. I
> believe he *doesn't know,* because he has taken that memory out of
> his head, as insurance, because he knew it was quite likely he'd
> be facing Voldemort. I think, to be safe, Dumbledore would allow
> himself to remember that he trusts Snape, and that he has a good 
> reason--but not the reason itself.  Because if Voldemort managed
> to "see" the first two things, he would think only that Snape was
>damn good at fooling Dumbledore, which would *strengthen* Snape's
> position with Voldemort. But if Voldemort ever managed to see 
> the "ironclad" reason *why* Dumbledore trusted Snape? That would
> doom Snape.

Jen: I love this theory, first off. It would explain so much. Like 
why DD told no one the full reason he trusted Snape, including other 
Order members. At the end of HBP we find out even Mcgonagall took 
trusting Severus on faith: "He always hinted he had an irconclad 
reason for trusting Snape...wouldn't hear a word against it." (US, 
chap. 29, p. 616).

It might also explain Dumbledore's pause when Harry confronts him 
very directly before they go to the cave: "Dumbledore did not speak 
for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind 
about something." (chap. 25, p. 549). Oh, if only he had decided to 
whip out that memory and dump it into the Pensieve before they left 
for the cave! Amanda, you mentioned later that Dumbledore didn't 
tell Harry because he didn't have the memory, but he must remember 
enough about Snape's story to know he has it stored somewhere. 
Otherwise it would be lost forever.

Did he think they would have time later on? Because it certainly 
seemed like the time had arrived for DD to give Harry more 
information about Snape. He couldn't believe there was *any* hope 
the two could work together after Harry just found out Snape was the 
eavesdropper. But Dumbledore hesitated, and obviously decided 
against taking the time to address it at that moment. An old man's 
mistake. ;-)


Jen





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 10:09:02 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:09:02 +0100
Subject: That makes a change.....
Message-ID: <181507AB-7803-4A6E-BCA5-F8149FC614CD@...>

I expect that most of us have read reviews of HBP in the newspaper or  
magazine of our choice. Usually I find them a bit disappointing,  
there often seems to be an element of damning with faint praise or a  
touch condescension about  many of them. They sometimes get details  
wrong and often launch into side-issues like being a positive  
influence if it brings youngsters back to books.

But.
I've found one I like. It's in today's Sunday Telegraph Review and  
it's by Tibor Fischer. I'd like to be able to provide a weblink, but  
can't - I think you have to register to get  that deep into the ST's  
contents on-line. The guy is obviously a long-time reader of the  
books and enjoys it all enormously while not taking it too seriously  
or descending into sycophancy. He obviously approves of Jo's total  
independence from the literati mafia, too. And it's among the reviews  
for adult reading, not the kid's stuff.

He likes her satire, particularly the political skewerings in OoP and  
HBP (while admitting that it's probably above the heads of younger  
readers) and likes strong new additions to the character list -  the  
cowardly net-working Slughorn for instance. He likes Snape, and  
wonders how decisive his actions will be in delineating what he is -  
just how sneaky Jo will be in the last book? Not fond of Ron,  though  
- keeps hoping he'll die. Humour is noted, and he considers that  
she's not  so far from Pratchett or Robert Rankin in this respect.  
And he admits that reviews such as his mean absolutely nothing - Jo  
is above all  that - she is after all the Chosen One of contemporary  
writing.

This bloke should be posting on one of the boards, he's one of us.

All in all this brightened my Sunday breakfast-time. A book review I  
mostly  agreed with.

Kneasy



From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 10:31:05 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] That makes a change.....
In-Reply-To: <181507AB-7803-4A6E-BCA5-F8149FC614CD@...>
Message-ID: <20050724103105.34334.qmail@...>



--- Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...> wrote:

On Tibor Fischer:

>This bloke should be posting on one of the boards, he's one of us.
> 
> All in all this brightened my Sunday breakfast-time. A book review I  
> mostly  agreed with.
> 
> Kneasy
> 

There were a couple of others last week as well.  A N Wilson was very positive about the series in
general (if occasionally inaccurate):  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2005/07/17/bopotter.xml&sSheet=/arts/2005/07/17/botop.html

And so was Amanda Craig in last week's Sunday Times, but the online version I found bears no
resemblance to the one I read in hard copy last week.  

Catherine




		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 11:59:14 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:59:14 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] The Ax
In-Reply-To: <dbsn9a+ss6l@...>
References: <dbsn9a+ss6l@...>
Message-ID: <200507241359.14206.silmariel@...>


Spoiler Space?
e
v
e
r
u
s

S
n
a
p
eSL be warned of my funny use of language, from now on. 

Talisman wrote:
> Part 3 of the lethal Mugglenet interview emerges.
>
> Well, closer to home, it seems that no one has to carry the soul
> fragments anywhere.
>
> "MA: Someone put it to me last night, that if Ginny, with the diary -
>
> JKR: Harry definitely destroyed that piece of soul, you saw it take
> shape, you saw it destroyed, it's gone. And Ginny is definitely in
> no way possessed by Voldemort."

Mmm. 

Just supossing for a moment your theory is correct, it isn't ruled out by 
Harry destroying on his own the fragment and not paying for it.

See, I think the link between LV and Harry makes the trick. Marking him as his 
equal gave Harry the rights to play with LV soul. He interlaced destinies, 
powers, minds, wands, and all the blablabla. Having Harry's blood in his 
veins can't be bad for this, also. Nice gleam.

If LV intention was to make a Horthingy of Harry, it's a nice backfire. He 
didn't get the baby but gave him the power to destroy LV stored parts without 
paying the price others do. That's a power the Dark Lord knows not, because, 
at the risk of being crude, he knows perfectly well Harry's 'saving thing' 
and 'loving'. Just ignores it. 

I doubt the mental connection is giving LV too much to worry about, either. 
But if Harry can stablish a connection with his Horxs, as he did with the 
wands, that's a problem. 

I just don't think destroying or reabsorbing your own horcruxes will kill you, 
it would go against the purpose of the thing. If the fragments are yours, you 
can dispose of them. With Harry works that way.

Maybe a blood sacrifice is all you need (just because it suits LV tastes), 
Harry was bleeding IIRC and I'm not movie-contaminated, when he destroyed 
TR's Diary. Can also consider the basilisk death as sacrificial.

Not that I have canon to support it, but I doubt I had canon to defend (not 
just speculate) the existence of Horx before HBP, I'm just retelling a story 
device that can be used here. 

Silmariel



From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 11:54:26 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:54:26 -0000
Subject: Possibilities surrounding nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape & DD)
In-Reply-To: <dbv1h7+t53a@...>
Message-ID: <dbvvhi+kvdu@...>

SSSusan wrote: 
> Could Snape have been performing a spell *other* than AK, while
> speaking an "Avada Kedavra" which did not take because it
> was "overpowered" by whatever nonverbal spell Snape was
> concentrating on?

 ? to
> simultaneously save Draco from murder, release DD into the death
> which was coming anyway from the potion, and to save Snape from
> breaking his Unbreakable Vow. But many of us suspect some mutual
> legillimency in that brief stare between DD & Snape. Could there
> have been instruction to Snape about what to do in that moment? I
> like the possibility of this.

Potioncat:
I've only read the book once...Am I only one whose family would think 
I was crazy if they knew I was already re-reading it?...but I can't 
quite get the idea of another spell having any advantage. Dead is 
dead. 

I don't understand why JKR had DD falling off the tower and that 
seems to be the big hint about whether it was an AK. But if I were 
choosing for myself, I'd choose AK before a fall off a tower as my 
means to an end.

The only thing that might save Snape is if he knew DD had died and  
performed the curse a split second later. But still, why the fall off 
the tower? 








From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 12:18:50 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hermione & hypocrisy WAS more replies, all spoilery
In-Reply-To: <1122206031.356.80601.m19@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20050724121852.75043.qmail@...>

I
N

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

N
O

O
N
E

C
A
N

H
E
A
R

Y
O
U

S
C
R
E
A
M

The Catlady wrote:

[Hermione's jinxing Cormac Whatsit] 
> was bloody HYPOCRITICAL (capslock!Catlady
> *sigh*) from the
> girl who confiscated the Fanged Frisbee (you,
> Pippin, may know Alan
> Frisbie) and ranted at Harry about assumed FF potion
> cheating. It had
> not occurred to me before that her flaws include
> hypocrisy.

Me either--it raised my eyebrows.  Her lapse is partly
explained by romance and the ways we tend to bend the
rules for those we love.  

But I think Harry hits the nail on the head when it
comes to the main reason:  Hermione never has
understood Quidditch.  At the moment he reflects on
this, when we too are wondering whether he's honestly
just spiked his Keeper's pumpkin juice (I couldn't
believe it), it has a nice concealed meaning.  She has
strict rules against cheating, but she does not
understand others' passion for Quidditch.  If she did,
she would know that Harry would never cheat to win a
match.  Unlike her, he takes Quidditch much too
seriously for that.

Too bad Mark McGwire et alia don't feel the same way
about a sport some of us care about . . . 

Amy Z C


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 12:46:13 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:46:13 -0000
Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories
In-Reply-To: <000901c58fdf$573817a0$8158aacf@...>
Message-ID: <dc02il+etr3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> wrote:
> I had two questions. Why didn't Dumbledore just *tell* Harry why he could
> trust Snape? And how, now, can Harry possibly learn, and *believe in,* the
> reason Dumbledore trusted Snape? I think the only person who knew,
> Dumbledore, made it impossible for himself to tell anyone. I think it is
> only Dumbledore, still, who has a reasonable chance of making Harry
> understand. And I think it will still be Dumbledore who tells him.
> 
> I grant you, death is a bit of an obstacle to communication. But given all
> that we now know of Pensieves, I think I can see an explanation for why
> Dumbledore did not tell him (or anyone else, evidently) and the way for
> Dumbledore to give this last bit of information to Harry.
> 
> Here's my summation of Pensieve knowledge (forgive the caps, please--I
> cannot underline or otherwise set off for ease of reading):
> 
> (1) PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. Canon
> supports this:
>

You're right, but whether Jo will stick strictly to existing canon is
something else again. There are hints that some previously believed to
be fixed canon is not so fixed after all - the Protection Where Lily's Blood Dwells
for one (well spotted that poster) and there could be more that'll reveal
themselves as we become more familiar with the detail in the book.

Yes, some of us have commented already on how useful bottled memories
will be in setting young Potter on the straight and narrow, though I hadn't 
myself got round to the possibility that the way Snape could avoid betraying
himself to Voldy (or DD) is not to have the dangerous memories in his noggin
in the first place (nice bit of deductive thinking there, by the way).  There's
even a danger that this neat wrinkle of banishing inconvenient memories
could be over-used - what a wonderful excuse for characters not telling
Harry stuff when he needs it! Even (and this repeats a thought I posted
some time back) -  there could be a bottled memory *from Harry* showing
what he saw at GH. Yes, he was a toddler and he might not have understood
what he saw, but that wouldn't neccessarily mean that the memory couldn't
be accessed. They must have been doing something interesting in the Missing
24 hours, don't you think?

It could also play to the long-held Memory-Modified Neville theories.
Hells teeth! What has Jo presented us with?

A further question -  if someone dies with memories missing, does that
mean that they are missing from any post-death animated representation
of them? 'Cos I was sort of relying on DD's portrait launching into the
final explication at the end of book 7. But if he's got memory blanks that
exercise might be less than complete.

The implications of these handy thought-sized bottles bear thinking about. 
 
Kneasy





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 12:50:44 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:50:44 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20050718032906.00941d60@...>
Message-ID: <dc02r4+r2jc@...>

Space, like time,
engenders forgetfulness;
but it does so
by setting us bodily
free from our 
surroundings and
giving us back
our primitive,
unattached state.
-Thomas Mann, The Magic Mountain

Richard:
> My issue remains with JKR's massive leap of anti-etymology in
making "crux"  mean soul. <snip>> I'm not entirely sure if what 
pisses me off most is that I couldn't guess  it, that I lost the best 
part of an hour thinking about it - time which  would've been better 
spent reading, or that it simply doesn't make sense.
> 

Pippin:
No, no, you were so close. Don't give up! What about this? The
cross, metaphorically, is the Christian means of salvation. So a 
horcrux is a "horrible cross" or an "outside the cross" way of saving 
your soul and achieving immortality.  Jo did say these aren't really 
secular books. (Sorry, Kneasy)

Does that make sense?

Pippin





From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 12:55:22 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:55:22 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Possibilities surrounding nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape & DD)
References: <dbvvhi+kvdu@...>
Message-ID: <02f001c5904e$f3f78160$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

SSSusan wrote previously: 
> Could Snape have been performing a spell *other* than AK, while
> speaking an "Avada Kedavra" which did not take because it
> was "overpowered" by whatever nonverbal spell Snape was
> concentrating on?

- to
> simultaneously save Draco from murder, release DD into the death
> which was coming anyway from the potion, and to save Snape from
> breaking his Unbreakable Vow. But many of us suspect some mutual
> legillimency in that brief stare between DD & Snape. Could there
> have been instruction to Snape about what to do in that moment? I
> like the possibility of this.

Potioncat:
I've only read the book once...Am I only one whose family would think 
I was crazy if they knew I was already re-reading it?...but I can't 
quite get the idea of another spell having any advantage. Dead is 
dead. 
  SSSusan:

  No one's said it aloud in my house, but....


  Potioncat:
  I don't understand why JKR had DD falling off the tower and that 
  seems to be the big hint about whether it was an AK. But if I were 
  choosing for myself, I'd choose AK before a fall off a tower as my 
  means to an end.

  The only thing that might save Snape is if he knew DD had died and  
  performed the curse a split second later. But still, why the fall off 
  the tower? 


  SSSusan:
  Oh, I think, definitely, this would only have any kind of advantage if a person believes either: 

  1) that DD did not die at all, either from an AK or from a fall, but that he wanted to give the impression that he did.  DD had just finished telling Draco there are ways of making it appear someone is dead & then hiding them, no?  *I* do not believe this, but others have speculated that DD didn't die on the tower and didn't die in the fall; that he merely floated down and gave the appearance of being dead at the bottom. 

  or 

  2) that it was very important that it appear Snape did the killing.  In this scenario, DD was dying anyway, from the green liquid he drank in the cave, but that he wanted to have Snape be in the position to be able to have claimed that he'd killed DD.  This plays into the Unbreakable Vow, of course.  If Draco couldn't manage to kill DD, Snape was supposed to complete the task or die himself.  With this, Snape could know that he hadn't actually been the cause but that he would appear to be the cause and so would be off the hook.

  Eh... that's pretty ridiculous, I know. ;-)  This was actually my co-worker's question, and she is in the camp that DD isn't really dead -- that he had drunk Draft of Living Death or something similar -- and that this possibility would be one way to allow for his having survived the events of the astronomy tower.  

  Truth be told, I'm actually even more interested in just the general questions I asked about verbal & nonverbal spells -- whether some are designed to be performed only one way, whether some can never be performed as nonverbal, etc.  But I do like the thought that someone accomplished at nonverbals could be concentrating on one while speaking something else... and manages to pull it off!

  Siriusly Snapey Susan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kirst_inn at kirst_inn.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 13:02:52 2005
From: kirst_inn at kirst_inn.yahoo.invalid (Kirstin Innes)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:02:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Another intro post.
Message-ID: <20050724130252.27365.qmail@...>

Hello. Hello. 
THE OLD CROWD  INTRO

***Name: Kirstin Innes

***Nicknames/IDs: Kirstini on HPfGU, kirst_inn on
Livejournal. I'm not very orignal.

***Age: 25

***Family: 
A doctor mum, nurse brother and socialist agitator
grandmother. Also three beloved twentysomething
housemates and a rotund one-eyed cat. Currently single
but dating.

***Home:
A big roomy flat on the top floor of an old tenement
on top of a hill in Glasgow, Scotland. 

***Birthday, Place of Birth:
29th September, Edinburgh, Scotland. Ive travelled a
whole 45 minutes up the M8 

***Education/Job/Role in Life etc:
MA in Scottish Literature, MLitt in Narratology and
Discourse, which is a fancy way of saying stories.
Turned my back on academia at this point, now work as
press and communications manager for a
theatre/club/art gallery. I am very, very happy doing
this, but do spend a bit of time denying vehemently
that I work in PR. I do a little freelance reviewing
(restaurants, theatre, books) and academic writing on
the side.

***Other things we might want to know about you:
I intend to write a novel at some point. I have been
intending to write the same novel for six years now,
though, and havent got further than five short
chapters and some question marks. 

***First contact with Harry Potter: 

A fairly new boyfriend got sick in March 2001 and I
looked after him. While he was sleeping I needed
something to read, raided his bookshelf and curled up
on his sofa with PS to see what all the fuss was
about. In three days Id ploughed through all four and
got hooked, possibly to the detriment of my nursing
abilities.

***Favourite Potter things (books, characters, ships,
fics, objects
d'Art, general enthusing): 

Favourite books are POA and I think HBP. Favourite
characters are Lupin, Ginny, Sirius, the Weasleys, and
the Trio when interacting. I find Snapes character
arc fascinating, but I dont like him and Im never
especially fond of Snape scenes. Not a massive
shipper, but I would always have said R/H and H/G
because those are characters I love working properly
together, so was delighted to see both of those come
about. I also like broomsticks, talking portraits,
scenes at the Burrow or in the Gryffindor Common Room,
watching the characters grow and develop, the way Jo
mixes poignancy and barbs, and probing into
Pottersverse morality. Favourite things about the
books generally are the humour- one liners, side
comments and detail, the flawed humanity of every
character, and that the reader is allowed time and
space to explore an other, massive world. 
I tend to seize up whenever Dobby makes an entrance,
though, and Ive never been especially convinced by
Tonks. I also like finding new fan art sites, but I
dont like Mary Grand Pres illustrations at all. 


***Extent of Potter obsession: 

Mild to moderate, and concerned mainly with the books
themselves. I was a List Elf, sometime Filker and
enthusiastic TBayer on HPfGU for a while, although
Ive been on a years hiatus. Ive recently noticed
symptoms starting to kick in again  obsessive
checking of the Leaky Cauldron, Mugglenet and the
Lexicon for updates whilst at work, searching out art
sites, rereading old filks, frustration with other
posters in the fandom who dont quite seem to get
it...
I realised that I needed a focused outlet for my
renewed post-HBP mania, so I approached Neil with the
intention of getting myself re-invited, and it worked!
I have to say, though, that Ive never been especially
impressed with fanfic; Im suspicious of fanon
characterisations, and there are some excesses of the
fandom that I find rather troubling, perhaps because I
prefer to keep my theorising canon-based and within
the realms of Rowling plausability.
***Other interests/activities:
Theatre, contemporary literature, eating out,
electronica, country, funk and soul music (I know 
odd combination), costume design, cooking for friends,
going out dancing, travelling. I only moved to Glasgow
in January, so Im really enjoying belonging to a new
city.

***Current/recent reading:
Although the last two weeks have been mostly taken up
with the Grand Potter readathon, other books Ive
picked up recently include Extremley Loud and
Incredibly Close by Jonathon Safran Foer (enjoyable,
but nothing new), The Philanderer by Stanley Kauffman
(Im really enjoying this, even though it goes against
most of my feminist principles), Psychoraag by Suhil
Saahdi (great at first but got bogged down in a
100-page satiric hallucination towards the end) and
Case Histories by Kate Atkinson (very good but I
didnt like the disdain had for her characters).

***Current/recent listening:
Candi Staton, Bobbie Gentry, the Glimmer Twins, Riton.


***Current/recent viewing:
I havent been watching very much television. We were
recently given cable for free and now it always seems
to be on music channels. Ive just seen Napolean
Dynamite on DVD and Festival at the cinema, and both
of those were great. 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com



From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 13:09:25 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:09:25 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dbttl8+l9ut@...>
Message-ID: <dc03u5+bl39@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
> 
> Milz:
> 
> > Unless other children were born in late July whose parents deifed 
> > Voldemort 3 times, there were only 2 babies in the UK (and perhaps 
> > the world) that fit the prophecy description: Neville Longbottom
> and  Harry Potter. The prophecy is pretty specific in that regard.  
> > 
> Pippin:
> It's only specific in retrospect.
Not quite  . Dumbledore tells Harry in OoP that only Neville and Harry
fit the criteria for the first part of  prophecy and that the Ministry
renamed the prophecy only after Halloween 1981. So the Ministry was
fully aware of the identities of the Neville and Harry before
Halloween 1981.

> After all, who decided what
> constitutes defying the Dark Lord?  So far we've seen  the Minister
> of Magic refuse to hand over power to him, Dumbledore refuse to 
> grant him the DADA position, (did you notice the acronym has made 
> its way into canon? ) Karkaroff refuse to go back to him, DE's try to
> kill Harry in defiance of Voldemort's wishes,  Slughorn hiding out,
> and 
> so on. 
> 
Voldemort decides what it means to defy him. However, there are 2 very
specific criteria: 1. The parents have had to defy Voldie 3 times and
2. The baby had to be born in late July. 

> There's nothing in the prophecy either  to say that the one who 
> vanquishes Voldemort is going to be a white wizard. The DE's think 
> only a greater Dark wizard can do it. Voldemort might have 
> started looking for traitors in his own camp.
>
 Again, the prophecy had 2 criteria to fulfill: defiance 3 times by
the parents (note: it says "parents" not mother or father) and the
baby had to be born in late July. Sure, Voldie, Dumbledore and the
Ministry might have over-intellectualized and began to ponder if the
prophecy used the Julian or Gregorian calendar, but whatever the case,
but Voldie picked Harry, so he picked the Julian.

> Milz:
> > That's what I think Dumbledore did: No one 
> > knows who Voldie will pick, so let's just keep our fingers crossed 
> > that he'll take a long time deciding? It's irresponsible. 
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Was it irresponsible of Sam Gamgee to stay with Frodo instead
> of going back to the Shire after he'd seen the vision of its 
> destruction in the Mirror of Galadriel? 
> Her words to Sam could fit right into what Dumbledore was 
> trying to tell Harry, "Remember that the Mirror shows many things, 
> and not  all have yet come to pass.
> Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions 
> turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is 
> dangerous as a guide of deeds." Substitute _prophecy_ for
> Mirror and you've got Dumbledore's attitude in a nutshell.
> 
The Mirror Of Erised shows a person's desires, so it can vary with
time because a person's desires can change. Prophecies tend to
indicate the future---what will happen as opposed to what might
happen. It's like the oracle's prophecy for Acrisus, King of Argos,
that his grandson will kill him. 

> The only responsible way to interpret a prophecy in the Potterverse
> is to do exactly what you would have done if you'd never heard of 
> it. 
>The only reason it's about Harry is that Voldemort has decided
> that it is. Would Dumbledore have sent James and Lily out of
> the fray if he'd never heard the prophecy? Of course not. Once
> Voldemort had heard it and decided it applied to them, that's another
> story.
> 
If Snape hadn't been there eavesdropping, then that would make perfect
sense to do. However, there was an eavesdropper. So it would have been
a common sense thing to set up security around the Potters and
Longbottoms, rather than wait until late October 1981 to tell them to
go into hiding. And that's why the Timeline as it stands, with the
information we currently have doesn't make sense to me.

Believe me Pippin, I would like to think that Dumbledore wasn't an
incompetent clod who flagrantly used babies to bait Voldemort into an
ambush, but with the canonical info we currently have concerning the
timeline, I have my doubts.

> It's canon that Fidelius was used to hide Grimmauld Place. Ch 37
> of OOP, Dumbledore explains that Kreacher could not reveal the
> whereabouts because he was not Secret-keeper, and Snape also
> gives this as the reason he  couldn't do it in HPB.
> 
> Pippin

Mea culpa, but again, it doesn't say how long it takes to do the
Fidelus Charm, so until we get that bit of canonical info, we can't
take for fact that the 1 year delay for the Potters to hide was due to
 the time it took to conjure the Fidelus charm.

Milz





From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 13:15:37 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:15:37 +1000
Subject: ranty catty replies
Message-ID: <20050724131537.GA13349@...>

Why
does
Yahoomort
refuse me
some emails
and not
others?
I am
every day
discovering replies
to emails
I have not read.
Is
this
senility
at last?

Ms Catlady declaimed in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2497

<< Maybe he was loved, albeit inefficiently, by his abusive father. >>

Ah but we have not sufficient proof of that, I believe. Ginger has made a very
good point that the "abuse" is something we may have assumed. We really don't
know anything much about that Pensieve scene at all.

Amy Z chimed in with
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2505

<< Her lapse is partly explained by romance and the ways we tend to bend the
rules for those we love. ...Harry would never cheat to win a match. Unlike her,
he takes Quidditch much too seriously for that. >>

Which is irony no. 1 for these two. Harry doesn't hesitate to cheat in the
"Real World" outside of Quidditch. For Hermionie school is her sacrosanct
Quidditch. But I have made noise in previous emails about her controlling
tendencies. When you attempt to control the people around you, particularly
those closest to you, it's about security, not love. Then again, compared to
the control-freaks around her, perhaps she's the "first-stage" example of a
Voldemort.

Amandageist in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2495

<< TWO--All this, then, means to me that there's a memory in a bottle
somewhere that shows that ironclad reason that so convinced Dumbledore. I
predict the existence of this, and that Harry will see it in Book 7, and it
will show him the truth; in a form he cannot argue with, from a source he
cannot disbelieve. >>

Possibly. But it seems too tidy, too 'deux ex machina' for me. Harry finds
out, noone else believes him until a climactic confrontation where all is in
the balance and only Harry knows which way it can go. Why else make such a
song and dance about Snape's loyalty in that fashion? 

A scene immediately springs to mind of Harry confronting Snape with the
evidence before Voldemort and Snape handily expiring in the process of making
Voldemort an easier target for Harry. Too dramatic? But there is no dramatic
value in such a mechanism unless it is drama for _us_. Once we know for
certain, Harry cannot know, and vice versa. I really feel that it would be
better that Dumbledore _is_ wrong, or at least that it is uncertain that he
was _right_. It would spoil the fun of book 7 for me.

ewe2, penguin for the maintainence of mystery.

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 13:18:11 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:18:11 -0000
Subject: The Ax
In-Reply-To: <200507241359.14206.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dc04ej+benp@...>

There once was a man named Ward,
Who said, "Do I care if they're bored?
Let them beg as they may,
They'll type Space--or pay,
It's so good to be the Dark Lord!"
Bwahahahahaha
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> 
wrote:
<snip>
>If LV intention was to make a Horthingy of Harry, it's a nice 
>backfire. He didn't get the baby but gave him the power to destroy 
>LV stored parts without paying the price others do. That's a power 
>the Dark Lord knows not...
 <snip>
>Not that I have canon to support it, but I doubt I had canon to 
>defend (notjust speculate) the existence of Horx before HBP, I'm 
>just retelling a story device that can be used here.

Talisman:

Thanks for throwing me a lifeline, Silmariel.  

We know Rowling draws freely from many stories.  Prior to HBP's 
release (can't recall where) someone suggested the theory of the 
separately stored soul, noting an old folktale (Chinese?) where an 
evil wizard hid his soul in an egg that had to be found and smashed 
before he could be killed. (Which I actually think I've read, but 
had forgotten.)

 If you know of  stories where having a soul dab gives extra rights 
with regard to the rest, that increases the likelihood that Rowling 
is using this idea.

Heck, even without it being an established device, it sounds good.  

My only lingering concern would be, why not just have Harry destroy 
them all?  He could be the official Hx whacker, rather than make 
anyone else die to do it.

But, Rowling can make as many magical rules as she likes, so there 
may be "some reason."

With that thought, I'll just wrap up The Chain in some plastic wrap, 
and put it in the frig; instead of flushing it down the toilet. : )

Talisman, musing: hmmmm, even in this scenario, it's become Harry's 
job to get the Hxes, so Snape can be safe, for awhile. (Tucks black 
arm bands back into embroidery basket.)









From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 13:22:43 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:22:43 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <dc02r4+r2jc@...>
Message-ID: <dc04n3+imi9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
Do
We
Still
Have
To 
Space
Things
Out?

> No, no, you were so close. Don't give up! What about this? The
> cross, metaphorically, is the Christian means of salvation. So a 
> horcrux is a "horrible cross" or an "outside the cross" way of saving 
> your soul and achieving immortality.  Jo did say these aren't really 
> secular books. (Sorry, Kneasy)
> 

I've never really understood the need to fit HP into any religious framework.
Perhaps someone could explain why numbers of fans consider it important
that it should show some sort of congruence. 
HP's just a bit of fun fantasy, isn't it? Nothing really important.
And where did she say they weren't secular?
'Not secular' implies the opposite. A delicate position for books selling to
a multi-faith readership.

Anyway, to your point. I'd be more convinced if:

1. The term hadn't supposedly been invented by wizards with no apparent
religious beliefs, or at least not one identifiable with any particular major 
Real-World belief system 

and

2. So far we've seen no evidence of overt religious iconography in the WW.

Therefore (staying strictly within the WW) the derivation is unlikely to
have come from Muggle symbology, they'd be more liable to construct
descriptive spell names from etymological roots that they are familiar with.

Naturally, whether Jo intends it to be read this way or not is up for grabs.
No doubt all will be revealed in due course.

Kneasy






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 13:35:08 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:35:08 -0000
Subject: Possibilities surrounding nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape & DD)
In-Reply-To: <02f001c5904e$f3f78160$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
Message-ID: <dc05ec+gvlu@...>

> 
>   Potioncat:
>   I don't understand why JKR had DD falling off the tower and that 
seems to be the big hint about whether it was an AK. But if I
were    choosing for myself, I'd choose AK before a fall off a tower
as my    means to an end.
> 
>   The only thing that might save Snape is if he knew DD had died
and     performed the curse a split second later. But still, why the
fall off    the tower? 

Pippin: 

The fall creates the same kind of ambiguity we had in Book One, when
Snape looked guilty because Jo shifted the narrator's PoV. If we'd
stayed with Harry instead of shifting to follow Hermione as she ran
towards Snape, we should have seen that the hex on the broom lifted 
the moment that Hermione crashed into Quirrell, not later when she
set Snape on fire.

Now Snape looks guilty because Harry thinks the body-bind curse lifted
when the AK struck Dumbledore, and it was only shock holding him after
that. But he doesn't *know* that. In fact, it's not like Harry at all
to stand paralyzed from shock when someone needs him. It's not the
first time Harry's assumptions have played him false. 

The fall keeps us from knowing when Dumbledore's eyes closed or when 
the  trickle of blood appeared from his mouth or when he assumed a 
peaceful expression. Surely he wasn't looking peaceful as he pleaded
with Snape?

Dumbledore stresses in his speech to Draco, as Snape did in his
speech to Narcissa, that Voldemort does not actually expect Draco to 
succeed in killing Dumbledore. This has vast implications, IMO, for
the definition of  what the Dark Lord ordered Draco to do. I can't
but think that Jo worded that vow very carefully. 

My take on it is still that the curse didn't kill Dumbledore because
it didn't work properly. No rushing sound. We are all set up for the
climactic moment in Book Seven which parallels the moment in 
Book One where Harry breaks through to the last obstacle and finds
that it isn't Snape, it isn't even Voldemort. 

As for what will happen to Draco, I think Snape will spirit him and
as his mother away as planned,  and report to Voldemort that he has 
killed them both. 

Pippin






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 13:40:07 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:40:07 -0000
Subject: Another intro post.
In-Reply-To: <20050724130252.27365.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dc05nn+bebh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kirstin Innes <kirst_inn at y...> 
wrote:> 
>I realised that I needed a focused outlet for my
> renewed post-HBP mania, so I approached Neil with the
> intention of getting myself re-invited, and it worked!

Talisman writes:

Hi Kirstini, and welcome.  Can't wait to see what you cook up around 
here.

So you got the nod from Neil? Recently?  He's alive, then? And able 
to communicate?

Very interesting, indeed.

I agree with you that Grand Pre's illustrations suck. I also think 
that the guy who did the Bloomsbury children's edition has a talent 
for making people look like dorks.

All of this illustrates one of my personal gems of wisdom (feel free 
to cite me), with which I often try to encourage people. 

 Any time you fear you are not qualified to do something that you 
really want to do, just take a moment and look at who is already 
doing it.  Chances are you'll be amazed at how unqualified they are, 
too.

See you in the posts, 

Talisman







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 14:25:47 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:25:47 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <dc04n3+imi9@...>
Message-ID: <dc08db+dm7t@...>

 Kneasy:
> I've never really understood the need to fit HP into any religious
framework.
> Perhaps someone could explain why numbers of fans consider it
important that it should show some sort of congruence. 
 HP's just a bit of fun fantasy, isn't it? Nothing really important.
And 
where did she say they weren't secular?
 'Not secular' implies the opposite. A delicate position for books
selling to a multi-faith readership.

Pippin:
The Time magazine interview:

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-time-grossman.htm

(Interestingly, although Rowling is a member of the Church of
Scotland, the books are free of references to God. On this point, 
Rowling is cagey.
 "Um. I don't think they're that secular," she says, choosing her
words slowly. "But, obviously, Dumbledore is not Jesus.")
---

To answer your other question, I don't feel a need to fit the books
into a religious framework. I just perceive that it's there in the
text.

I'd feel silly ignoring it, nor do I see why its existence should be 
more offensive to fans than a framework of secular humanism, or 
multi-culturalism or agnosticism or existentialism or  any other 
philosophy.

Fans might be disappointed to learn that the author's philosophy
is different from theirs; on the other hand they might also find
it  depressing to think she hadn't an idea in her head and it
was all just fluff, created with no no other purpose than to kill 
lots of trees and make piles of money for the author (not that 
she doesn't deserve every penny.)

 It's like the Shipping debate isn't it? The author thinks she's 
dropped anvil sized clues, and many fans agree, and think that she 
couldn't have  made it more obvious without writing it in neon
letters, while others are taken aback and say that they never saw it 
coming and wouldn't have wanted it if they did. 



Pippin
noting that the cathedral metaphor showed up again in HPB






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 14:33:51 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:33:51 -0000
Subject: Another intro post.
In-Reply-To: <20050724130252.27365.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dc08sf+nr8n@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kirstin Innes <kirst_inn at y...> wrote:
> ***Extent of Potter obsession: 
> 
> Mild to moderate, and concerned mainly with the books
> themselves. I was a List Elf, sometime Filker and
> enthusiastic TBayer on HPfGU for a while, although
> I've been on a year's hiatus.

Welcome back to the dubious delights of trying to second-
guess that devious tormentor at the other end of the M8.

I was wondering if/when you'd be joining the merry throng,
'cos once the bug's bitten there's this strange force that usually
pulls the lapsed/resting fans back to the boards after a new 
volume hits the shops. Enthusiasm, I think it's called.
They think they can escape, but they never do.

Hope you have fun.

Kneasy







From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 15:12:23 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:12:23 -0000
Subject: Possibilities surrounding nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape & DD)
In-Reply-To: <02f001c5904e$f3f78160$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
Message-ID: <dc0b4n+od5f@...>

There once was a group called TOC

which started using spoiler space with much glee

until all other groups

gave it up and got loose

and left TOC members very huffy.


SSSusan:
>   Truth be told, I'm actually even more interested in just the
> general questions I asked about verbal & nonverbal spells -- 
whether
> some are designed to be performed only one way, whether some can
> never be performed as nonverbal, etc.  But I do like the thought
> that someone accomplished at nonverbals could be concentrating on
> one while speaking something else... and manages to pull it off!

Jen: I was re-reading the chapter where Snape introduces non-
verbals. No coincidence Snape teaches DADA this year, eh? If anyone 
can make Harry remember a lesson, it will be Snape with his critical 
comments. That way Harry can learn out of spite, if nothing else.

The skill does sound similar to learning Occlumency, 'concentration 
and mind power' and all that. It does seem like a person very 
skilled at nonverbals could think one spell and say another.

I guess the question comes down to which would have the power if a 
person tried to cast two spells at once--the nonverbal or the spoken 
spell? Maybe it would depend on which one the caster intends? I'm 
still thinking an Unforgiveable would require complete 
concentration, not merely to perform it, but to 'really *mean* it' 
as Bella tells us.

'Course Bella may not be the final word. Someone like Snape might u-
poo this idea. He obviously took his magical training into his own 
hands at an early age and is self-taught in some areas. 

Jen, who can't come up with any other thoughts on nonverbals even 
after re-reading the fight between DD and LV at the MOM.






From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 15:44:20 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:44:20 -0000
Subject: Ron's Birthday Present
Message-ID: <dc0d0k+5uit@...>

Sneaky!JKR

who likes to leave things in plain sight

like a certain artifact

which blocked our view

of Mr. Draco

and later turned out

to be very important.

(Hope my spoiler space wasn't actually a spoiler <g>).

*****************************************************

I glossed over many scenes and now in my re-read have time to wonder 
about the little things JKR slipped in. Like Ron's birthday watch.

It's sort of sad in retrospect. Dumbledore couldn't wear it anymore 
on his withered arm and gave it to the Weasely's to give to Ron (is 
my thinking). Like he knew he wouldn't need it anymore. And he 
wanted Ron in particular to have it for some reason. I saw 
speculation from vmonte on the main list that this verifies that 
both Dumbledore and the Weasleys are Heirs of Gryffindor. Don't know 
if JKR's latest comments rule that out for everyone or just Harry.

Wonder if Hermione will also be reciving an unusal gift on her 
birthday next September?

Jen






From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 15:47:43 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:47:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: HBP:  Luna's commentary and Tonk's Red Herring
In-Reply-To: <20050722084029.GA7774@...>
Message-ID: <20050724154743.3968.qmail@...>



--- ewe2 <ewe2 at ...> wrote:

> Picture yourself on a list with an email
> With theories of this and theories of that
> Suddenly someone exclaims in the subject
> "There's something you haven't done yet!!"
> 
> What could it be I keep asking myself
> What could I simply forget?
> List Elves aplenty throw food in my face til I'm gone
> 
> Spacey on the Screen With Spoilers!
> Spacey on the Screen With Spoilers!
> Spacey on the Screen With Spoilers!
> 
> Aahhhhh!


Love it!  And what with the prospect of even more increasingly desperate poetical pleas from
Talisman to entertain us, I think it would be a tragedy to dispense with spoiler space just yet. 
> .
> .
> .
> 
> > "...but now that big Hufflepuff player's got the Qaffle from her, I can't remember his name,
> it's
> > something like Bibble - no, Buggins - "
> > 
> > Is this the first piece of evidence we've been given that the Wizarding World reads Muggle
> > fiction?
> > 
> > Catherine, focussing on the important things during her reread
> 
> I couldn't help noticing that too. I can't remember anything more explicit
> than that unless some Dickens fan comes up with something, Kneasy? Perhaps
> we'll get more of this in Harry Potter and the Cheeky Tart Wraps It Up.
> 

I'm actually wondering whether JKR was reading LOTR or The Hobbit during that scene - there is
something almost Gollum-esque about the way Peeves is talking.

I'm pretty well versed in Dickens myself, and nothing springs to mind.

> Noone seems to have noticed the great big galumphing clanger JKR dropped in the
> Dreaded Interview Pt. 2 wherein, quoting Dorothy L Sayers, she quoth:
> 
> " ...there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be
> useful to camouflage other people's motives. That's true; it is a very useful
> trick. I've used that on Percy and I've used that to a degree on Tonks in this
> book, as a red herring."
> 
> Kind of throws out the Tonks/Remus ship, IMHO. She seems to hint that the
> reason for DD's trust in Snape is kind of obvious, but it isn't so far to
> me...

Does it though?  I'm wondering whether she's kind of mis-spoke here.  The thing with Percy and
what was up with him was the fact that he *did* have a girlfriend, which was the explanation for
all his odd behaviour.  Isn't she saying this is what she's done with Tonks?  And on reread, the
clues are all definitely there - Tonks is going to Mrs Weasley for "tea and sympathy", and far
from trying to push Tonks at Bill, Mrs Weasley is looking reproachfully at Lupin.

I do still think her behaviour is odd, but not enough to think she's polyjuiced or something.

Catherine

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 16:37:47 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:37:47 -0000
Subject: HBP spoiler(ish): Hor-thingies: etymology
In-Reply-To: <dc08db+dm7t@...>
Message-ID: <dc0g4r+5o2l@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> The Time magazine interview:
> 
> http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-time-grossman.htm
> 
> (Interestingly, although Rowling is a member of the Church of
> Scotland, the books are free of references to God. On this point, 
> Rowling is cagey.
>  "Um. I don't think they're that secular," she says, choosing her
> words slowly. "But, obviously, Dumbledore is not Jesus.")
> ---
>

Interesting interview.
I'll quote a few more bits later,  but before those - I did a search in
Quick Quotes using 'religion' or 'secular' as key words. Only one of
the latter, the Times interview you mention. Five results for the
former: Chicago Sun Times, New York Times, CBC, the US version
of BBC's "Harry Potter and me" and the UK version of the same.
In the last two 'religion' turns up as a concern voiced by a couple
of Carolinians and linked with 'promoting witchcraft'. Admittedly it's 
small numbers, but if QQ is accurate nobody outside the US has shown
 much concern over secular/spiritual content, certainly not enough to 
bring it up in interview, anyway. It appears to be a minority interest, 
which was more or less the point in my previous post.

It does seem that Jo is a bit cautious, even touchy on this subject; I 
remember that when she told that OoP contained more words than the
New Testament, her response was "I suppose they'll use that against me
as well" referring to the religious Right. (Paxman interview.) It was 
elements of this fairly influential group that was agitating to get her 
books banned from libraries, after all. Not be surprising if she doesn't 
want to stir them up again.

Which leads back to the quote you posted. The Times writer had stated 
that in the books 
"Her Hogwarts is secular and sexual and multicultural and even sort of 
multimedia, with all those talking ghosts. If Lewis showed up there, lets 
face it, he'd probably wind up a Death Eater." 

I think Jo was being careful, not further alienating those not very fond of
her to start with.

The Times writer also states:
"And unlike Lewis, whose books are drenched in theology, Rowling 
refuses to view herself as a moral educator to millions of children who 
read her books. "I don't think it's at all healthy for the work for me to 
think in those terms. So I don't," she says. "I never think in terms of what
I am going to teach them. Or what would be good for them to find out 
here. Although," she adds,"undeniably morals are drawn."
 
Morals are drawn. By the readers? But which morals would be entirely up 
to them, I assume. Which is approximately where we ended up the last 
time we discussed JKR and moral/ethical systems.


> 
> I'd feel silly ignoring it, nor do I see why its existence should be 
> more offensive to fans than a framework of secular humanism, or 
> multi-culturalism or agnosticism or existentialism or  any other 
> philosophy.
> 
> Fans might be disappointed to learn that the author's philosophy
> is different from theirs; on the other hand they might also find
> it  depressing to think she hadn't an idea in her head and it
> was all just fluff, created with no no other purpose than to kill 
> lots of trees and make piles of money for the author (not that 
> she doesn't deserve every penny.)
>

Do readers automatically assume that an author will or should include
in a work of fiction references to their personal philosophical bent?
Terry Pratchett is in trouble then - a more disreputable bunch of
low-lifes has rarely been encountered outside politics. And he revels 
in their mendacity. Ann Rice would be an even worse case.

To a greater or lesser extent the old truism holds.
What you get out of it depends on what you bring to it.
Those with religious convictions will find support for those convictions,
even if it's in a negative fashion i.e. a book so opposed to their beliefs
that it ends up strengthening them. What does not destroy us ....

The a-religious will notice not very much of this sort of thing - unless
it's shoved down their throat. And if it were I wouldn't be reading HP. 

 
> Pippin
> noting that the cathedral metaphor showed up again in HPB

I did another quick search.
Jo is Church of Scotland - Presbyterian. They don't build cathedrals,
though it seems there are a few pre-reformation buildings that were formerly
cathedrals and are now C of S places of worship that are still referred to as such.
I'd keep thinking of it as an image-evocative metaphor for a large enclosed
space if I were you.

Kneasy






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 17:42:59 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:42:59 -0000
Subject: Canned memories
In-Reply-To: <dc02il+etr3@...>
Message-ID: <dc0jv3+h4lo@...>

Surely
until
the
last
translation
has
appeared?
The
issue
is
not
time
to
read
but
accessibility.

Kneasy:

> I was sort of relying on DD's portrait launching into the
> final explication at the end of book 7. But if he's got memory 
blanks that
> exercise might be less than complete.

Oh, no.

What *I* foresee is a truly heartrending scene in which Harry finds 
out the limitations of portraits.

He will dash into the HM's study, and start asking Dumbledore's 
portrait questions.  The portrait will start by courteously, and 
twinklingly, no doubt, asking Harry who he is.

David, who doean't understand why people keep asking after Neil





From Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 17:50:11 2005
From: Ali at alhewison.yahoo.invalid (Ali)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:50:11 -0000
Subject: Etymolgy of those things again
Message-ID: <dc0kcj+k8b9@...>

I
a
m
r
e
a
l
l
y
not
h
e
r
e
A
c
c
i
o
takes
a
l
l 
m
y
time

I've been a bit bemused as to how people have been interpreting 
horcruxes.  I know that JKR's Latin is bad (inferius becoming inferi 
annoys me for a start), and she does use other bits of languages and 
mixes everything about.

But why couldn't a horcrux be a combination of the stem of the Latin 
word hora (hor) meaning hour (or time in some instances) and crux 
meaning cross? I know that Richard did mention hora in his first 
post on the subject, but he seems to discount it, yet, to me it 
would fit.

Wizards use Horcruxes to attempt to escape death - to beat time. So 
given that a "crux" was a cross that the Romans used to crucify 
people on, a horcrux is used to crucify or perhaps beat time - by 
splitting the soul. By splitting the soul, the user is trying to get 
immortality isn't he? This fits with the idea of Voldemort's 
followers being called "Death Eaters" and even his 
nickname "Voldemort" meaning flight from death. IMO this fits better 
than a definition in which the word "soul" is conjured.

Ali,

Taking a short break from Accio and still only 2 reads of HBP under 
her belt





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 17:56:08 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:56:08 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dc03u5+bl39@...>
Message-ID: <dc0kno+8jvv@...>

Read faster!
Read faster!

Read faster!
Read faster!

Read faster!

Read faster!


This message was not brought to you by Subliminal Messages inc.




--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> 
> Believe me Pippin, I would like to think that Dumbledore wasn't an
> incompetent clod who flagrantly used babies to bait Voldemort into an
> ambush, but with the canonical info we currently have concerning the
> timeline, I have my doubts.
>
> 
> Milz

Ok, I'm clutching at straws here but I may have a way out.

There are around 40 people in Harry's year so Voldy has to locate his 
subject from this group, plus any not at Hogwarts for whatever reason. 
Harry was down for Hogwarts from the moment he was born according to 
Hagrid in PS. Is it possible that the *only* record of births in the  
UK wizarding world is at Hogwarts? By protecting Harry?Neville from 
the moment they are born DD would be giving Voldy the information he 
needed to identify his targets. Only if Voldy could get the info from 
Hogwarts would this 'hiding in numbers' strategy fail, but we know 
Voldy sent Snape specifically to infiltrate Hogwarts, could this be 
his reason?

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the time 
was ripe for a cheese cauldron.









From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 18:03:30 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:03:30 -0000
Subject: Religion in HP
In-Reply-To: <dc0g4r+5o2l@...>
Message-ID: <dc0l5i+jsr8@...>

Kneasy wrote:

> > Rowling is cagey.
> >  "Um. I don't think they're that secular," she says, choosing her
> > words slowly. "But, obviously, Dumbledore is not Jesus.")

> I think Jo was being careful, not further alienating those not 
very fond of
> her to start with.

*coughanvilcough*

> To a greater or lesser extent the old truism holds.
> What you get out of it depends on what you bring to it.
> Those with religious convictions will find support for those 
convictions,
> even if it's in a negative fashion i.e. a book so opposed to their 
beliefs
> that it ends up strengthening them. What does not destroy us ....
> 
> The a-religious will notice not very much of this sort of thing - 
unless
> it's shoved down their throat. And if it were I wouldn't be 
reading HP. 

Perhaps not.

But the people who see religion in HP aren't necessarily just 
finding support for their own convictions.  For example, the people 
on this board who have discussed possible Christian motifs in HP are 
not just the Christians here.

It's quite possible to be interested in religion, and to discuss it, 
without immediately relating it to one's own religious belief, 
indeed without having any religious beliefs at all.  And it's 
possible to get more out of a text than you bring to it, in religion 
as in any other area.

Some of us a-religious do notice religious things, and don't mind 
talking about it.  

David, who feels duty-bound to point out that the word a-religious 
mixes Greek and Latin






From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 18:16:15 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Canned memories
In-Reply-To: <dc0jv3+h4lo@...>
Message-ID: <20050724181615.2734.qmail@...>

This
Was
Going 
To
Be
A
Me
Too
But
I've 
Changed
My 
View
Whilst
Writing


--- davewitley <dfrankiswork at ...> wrote:
> 
> Kneasy:
> 
> > I was sort of relying on DD's portrait launching into the
> > final explication at the end of book 7. But if he's got memory 
> blanks that
> > exercise might be less than complete.
> 
> Oh, no.
> 
> What *I* foresee is a truly heartrending scene in which Harry finds 
> out the limitations of portraits.
> 
> He will dash into the HM's study, and start asking Dumbledore's 
> portrait questions.  The portrait will start by courteously, and 
> twinklingly, no doubt, asking Harry who he is.

Yes, the idea of that was quite upsetting, but I'm now quite confused by JKR's assertion that
these portraits are mere imprints.  Phineas Nigellus is probably the portrait we have seen the
most of, substantively and his character seems fully formed; he seems to have a fairly good grasp
of his own past history (certainly remembers what it was like being headmaster, for example), he
is capable, as all of the ex-head teachers are, of having fully formed opinions on everything, he
is alert and able to understand the context of what is going on around him and he is capable of
reacting to current events on an emotional level - hence his reaction to the death of Sirius. 
What is missing?

So I'm thinking that Dumbledore's portrait could be a useful devise in the final installment -
both from an emotional perspective, and from imparting important exposition.

> 
> David, who doean't understand why people keep asking after Neil

Yes you do!

Catherine


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 18:29:17 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:29:17 -0000
Subject: Religion in HP
In-Reply-To: <dc0l5i+jsr8@...>
Message-ID: <dc0mlt+bie0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> 
> Some of us a-religious do notice religious things, and don't mind 
> talking about it.  
> 

Oh, discussing it doesn't bother me, even though such discussions have
been known to get a little ... intense, shall we say. 

It's one of those subjects that if care isn't taken can cause upsets
and ructions as individuals dig themselves into entrenched positions.
It's usually a deeply personal matter.

If this particular subject matter expands or continues I'll watch with 
interest but won't participate further. I'm more or less guaranteed to
post something which will upset somebody. It's a gift, best to use
it sparingly.

> David, who feels duty-bound to point out that the word a-religious 
> mixes Greek and Latin

That's as it should be.
I'm a-religious when compared to adherents to both the Greek Orthodox
and the Romano-Latin churches.

Kneasy







From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 19:07:27 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:07:27 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dc0kno+8jvv@...>
Message-ID: <dc0otf+5e1i@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> wrote:
> Read faster!
> Read faster!
> 
> Read faster!
> Read faster!
> 
> Read faster!
> 
> Read faster!
> 
> 
> This message was not brought to you by Subliminal Messages inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > 
> > Believe me Pippin, I would like to think that Dumbledore wasn't an
> > incompetent clod who flagrantly used babies to bait Voldemort into an
> > ambush, but with the canonical info we currently have concerning the
> > timeline, I have my doubts.
> >
> > 
> > Milz
> 
> Ok, I'm clutching at straws here but I may have a way out.
> 
> There are around 40 people in Harry's year so Voldy has to locate his 
> subject from this group, plus any not at Hogwarts for whatever reason. 
> Harry was down for Hogwarts from the moment he was born according to 
> Hagrid in PS. Is it possible that the *only* record of births in the  
> UK wizarding world is at Hogwarts? By protecting Harry?Neville from 
> the moment they are born DD would be giving Voldy the information he 
> needed to identify his targets. Only if Voldy could get the info from 
> Hogwarts would this 'hiding in numbers' strategy fail, but we know 
> Voldy sent Snape specifically to infiltrate Hogwarts, could this be 
> his reason?
> 
> Regards
> Jo
> 

That's a thought Jo, because Snape took the Potions position at
Hogwarts in 1981.  So we can make the assumption that not only did
Snape eavesdrop on the Prophecy, but he also gave Voldie the names of
Neville and Harry. That would make the leading up to events in October
1981 like this:

Before October:
1. Snape confesses to Dumbledore that he's a Death Eater, he's seen
the light, he wants out, and oh by the way, he heard the prophecy and
he passed it onto Voldie.
2. A convinced Dumbledore hires Snape.
3. Snape looks in the Book of Magical Children and passes that info to
Voldie.
4. Voldie makes his choice.

During October:
1. Dumbledore informed that a spy betrayed the Potters (possibly by
Snape who does this in an attempt to flush the Potters out for Voldie) 
2. October 24: Pettigrew made Secret Keeper and Potters go into hiding
at Godric's Hollow  
3. Halloween 1981
 
Makes sense but it hinges on Snape being "Evil" (and I  think Rowling
gives us good arguments for and against that so she can go either way
in Book 7 and still make it convincing)

Milz






From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 20:03:06 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:03:06 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Canned memories
In-Reply-To: <20050724181615.2734.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGKEJNDFAA.neilward@...>

David proposed:

<< What *I* foresee is a truly heartrending scene in which Harry finds out
the limitations of portraits.

He will dash into the HM's study, and start asking Dumbledore's portrait
questions.  The portrait will start by courteously, and  twinklingly, no
doubt, asking Harry who he is. >>

Catherine responded:

<< Yes, the idea of that was quite upsetting, but I'm now quite confused by
JKR's assertion that
these portraits are mere imprints.  Phineas Nigellus is probably the
portrait we have seen the
most of, substantively and his character seems fully formed; he seems to
have a fairly good grasp
of his own past history (certainly remembers what it was like being
headmaster, for example), he
is capable, as all of the ex-head teachers are, of having fully formed
opinions on everything, he
is alert and able to understand the context of what is going on around him
and he is capable of
reacting to current events on an emotional level - hence his reaction to the
death of Sirius.
What is missing?

So I'm thinking that Dumbledore's portrait could be a useful devise in the
final installment -
both from an emotional perspective, and from imparting important exposition.
>>

Me:

This portrait thing has always intrigued me.  At first, I assumed portraits
were only given life when the subject died.  This raised a few questions:

1) Who paints the portraits?

Okay, we've never - AFAIK - had mention of wizards painting pictures, or
taking photographs for that matter (how *do* those photographs appear in the
absence of what can only be Muggle technology?  (Okay, strike that - I just
remembered Colin Creevey)

2) Does the style of painting matter?

Let's assume Dumbledore is painted in the style of Picasso.  How lucid is he
going to be with a blue face and both eyes on the same side of his crooked
nose?  Can we assume a photorealistic or traditionalist style in these
paintings?  What if someone painted a simply godawful painting of
Dumbledore - would the rendering be suitably removed from the original
personality?

3) How about paintings of living wizarding folk?

Although I can't think of an example, I'm assuming there are paintings of
living subjects. Are these merely imprints (cf. photos), in contrast to the
post-mortem versions of people, which seem to take on a sort of enhanced
afterlife personality?

The appearance of Dumbledore's picture in his former office suggest that
portraits may not be painted at all, but created as a sort of
ghost-surrogate.  Perhaps a communicative portrait appears in the natural
home or homes of the deceased and thus is able to travel from frame to frame
of its suite of pictures?  In some cases, the person may be confined to one
frame, in others, there may be multiple locations.

If we assume paintings are *painted*, do we imagine Dumbledore thinking,
"Okay, death is on the cards with this cockeyed plan - better knock up a
quick self-portrait for the old office, just in case...".  Perhaps he then
thinks, "Hmmm - should I do myself like Michael Gambon, or Richard Harris,
or perhaps that sketch JKR did on the back of a napkin when she did'nae have
two ha'pennies to rub together?"

To me, it seems a bit daft to kill Dumbledore (okay, he's actually
*D.E.A.D* - I accept that) and then have an 'all singing, all dancing'
portrait that can guide Harry neatly to each of the hot cross buns in turn.
No, it makes more sense that, as David implied, we'll see a merry,
twinkling, airhead version of Dumbledore, possibly with both eyes on the
same side of his head.

David:

<< David, who doean't understand why people keep asking after Neil >>

People are under the impression that I alone hold the power to release them
from the chains of their highly imaginative use of spoiler space.  However,
despite Talisman's poetic pleas, I made an Unbreakable Vow to my fellow
moderators.  I am bound, but soon, my dears, very soon...

Neil







From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 20:12:14 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:12:14 -0000
Subject: OT:  Oh, botheration...
Message-ID: <dc0smu+prr2@...>

I just sent a message without *any* spoiler space.

Isn't that ironic?  I know you'll all laugh and tell your 
grandchildren about this as you bounce them on your knee.  

Alternatively, you'll all hate me and curse me for the rest of my born 
days...

This message was canon-free, by the way.

Neil  





From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 20:25:42 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:25:42 -0000
Subject: Possibilities surrounding nonverbal spells (HBP spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <dc05ec+gvlu@...>
Message-ID: <dc0tg6+utbc@...>

Main Entry:  	space
Part of Speech:  	noun 1
Definition:  	room
Synonyms:  	amplitude, area, arena, blank, breadth, capacity, compass,
distance, elbowroom, expanse, expansion, extension, extent, field,
gap, headroom, headway, infinity, interval, lacuna, leeway, location,
margin, omission, play, range, reach, scope, slot, spaciousness,
sphere, spot, spread, stretch, territory, tract, turf, volume, zone

Main Entry:  	space
Part of Speech:  	noun 2
Definition:  	time interval
Synonyms:  	bit, duration, period, season, span, spell, stretch, term,
time, while


> > 
> >   Potioncat:
> >   I don't understand why JKR had DD falling off the tower and that 
> seems to be the big hint about whether it was an AK. But if I
> were    choosing for myself, I'd choose AK before a fall off a tower
> as my    means to an end.
> > 
> >   The only thing that might save Snape is if he knew DD had died
> and     performed the curse a split second later. But still, why the
> fall off    the tower? 
> 

Neri:
Maybe because she knew we will try to subvert this scene any way
possible, and she gets an evil pleasure from making us try harder <g>.

It could be that originally the death was planned to be merely from
the AK. But after OotP, JKR had two years to watch how we tried to
subvert Sirius' death. I find it slightly amusing that this time she
explicitly describes how the jet of *green* light comes from *the tip
of Snape's wand*, and there is definitely a body. 

But she probably realized this won't be enough, so she made Snape kill
DD not once, not twice, but *three* times: first when he doesn't give
him the antidote only he can give him, second when he AKs him, third
when he makes him fall of the tower. And it's actually more like three
and a half, because once Snape takes the Unbreakable Vow it's either
him or DD. JKR will be enjoying herself immensely when touring the fan
sites to see if anybody managed to weasel out of all that.

Neri   







From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 20:30:47 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:30:47 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: What would convince Harry/canned memories
References: <dbunho+d7b2@...>
Message-ID: <000601c5908e$94a00d00$1558aacf@...>

Amandageist originally:
> > (1) PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. Canon
supports this:

Lyn answered:
> Yes, but then there is this little problem of Slughorn's memory. DD has
the one copy, but
> another unaltered copy still resides in Slughorn's head. Either this is a
Flint, or memories
> can exist in both places if the owner so chooses.

Amandageist responds:
I'd think it would be that Slughorn gave him a "construct" memory--a fake
one, made from the real and then (clumsily) readjusted. He retained the real
one and gave a fake one. This is me winging it, but so much canon supports
the memory being "removed" that I think adjusted memories may be separate
items, provided under false pretenses.

Amandageist originally:
> > Maybe Dumbledore wasn't making up his mind; maybe he didn't have that
> > information to give. The timeframe of this exchange is that Dumbledore
has
> > called Harry to his office to go try to find and destroy a Horcrux. This
is
> > a time I would expect Dumbledore to have removed any memories that could
> > endanger the cause. So he told Harry all he honestly could at that
> > moment--and what he could tell him matched what Snape has told Voldemort
and
> > the DEs: Snape spun a tale of remorse and Dumbledore trusts him
completely.

Lyn responded:
> But, at a  minimum, he still knew he had memories stored, and what they
were (how else
> would one ever recover them, or go back to peruse them, and how else would
Snape know,
> and he did indicate he knew, what Harry was seeing of Snape's own
memories).   And it DD
> knew what that the reason was stored, and it likely was in his office as
that is where all the
> other  memories have been stored, he could have pulled out the bottle
right then and
> there, just like he did for the other  memories. Hence, I still believe
there is much more to
> why DD doesn't let Harry know.

Amandageist now:
I'll grant there's more. Even given that, though, I can think of at least
two reasons not to stop right then. One, and not least in my mind--if it
involved Snape, Harry is in no state to hear it right then. He's in a state
of very high dudgeon, having just found out about Snape reporting the
prophecy to Voldemort. Not the most receptive time; he cannot be objective
about Snape when he's calm. Two, there's a time factor. Dumbledore had
summoned Harry to his office to accompany him going after the Horcrux; Harry
ran into Trelawney on the way. There may not be *time* to uncork the bottle;
so Dumbledore asks for Harry's trust on that point.

Did that answer well enough?

I also YM'd with Nora last night, and had a couple more thoughts:

Nora said that most of the "Snape in deep cover" theories are predicated
upon the Order and Harry not knowing what Snape is up to--if they knew,
Snape would be in trouble. If this is true, *then* any posthumous revelation
on Dumbledore's part would break the cover, as Harry is not likely not to
share.

To which I responded: I think the content will be such that Harry will
(a) immediately understand why D didn't say, and
(b) immediately wish he himself still didn't know, and
(c) realize why he can't tell anyone else, putting him in the same position
D was in.

And Harry knowing, with his lousy skills at Occlumency, is a definite
danger. Making my old prediction of a scenario where he must trust Snape to
shield him from Voldemort in a confrontation, even more likely.

Cool.

~Amandageist






From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 20:33:41 2005
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:33:41 -0500
Subject: Graveyard Horcrux?
Message-ID: <000e01c5908e$fb6ce260$1558aacf@...>

Another thought that came out of my YM with Nora last night.

If Horcruxes are made at significant deaths--isn't it likely Voldemort
planned to make one that night in the graveyard, after he came back? Maybe
he "used" one to return and needed to replace it. Harry's death to be the
trigger or whatever.

So, he still had killed Cedric and could have made one...if he'd thought
about it--what would it have been?
Tombstone?
Wormtail's hand?
Triwizard cup?

Just wondered what anyone thought about that.

~Amanda
-------------------------
Those who cannot hear the music, think the dancers daft.




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 21:37:01 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:37:01 -0000
Subject: D.O.P.E.
Message-ID: <dc11lt+scsu@...>

Said Neil, "You must understand us
Tis the mods who have taken a stand thus,
Nesbit, John, Cath, Pen, and Kelly;
Will turn me to jelly!"
Quod Talisman: "Sic Semper Tyrranus!"

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Haven't read absolutely all the posts, my 21-year-old is visiting so 
we're sharing the cable.

If anyone has posted this idea before, by all means let me know. 
Kindred spirits are a rare find and I wouldn't want to miss one.

I agree with all those who put Rowling's boggart comments together 
with the text and believe DD is experiencing his worst memories in 
the cave.  (Guilty!DD, indeed.)

Attentive readers might also recall that I have been calling the 
Prophesies nothing more than DD's manipulative devices, for years. 
(Circa 2003. Really almost did a TBAY back in the day called "DD's 
Bait Shop"--he's got so much of it.)

I'll go a step further, now.

Given the evidence contra, I'll retract the idea that Snape had 
turned before the eavesdropping event.

Nonetheless, Trelawney's evidence demonstrates that she *had* 
stopped channeling the prophesy and *had* come to, in order to see 
Snape standing there with Aberforth in tow, and to get the 
impression that Snape had been eavesdropping.

The answer for me now is that DD *causes* Trelawney to have her 
prophecies.  He didn't go to the Hog's Head to be accommodating.  As 
we saw with TR, he would ordinarily conduct job interviews in his 
office at Hogwarts.

He went to the Hog's Head knowing that Snape (or at least some LV 
spy) would tail him.  He knew what position Trelawney sought, and 
decided to use the occasion to plant the half prophesy in a manner 
that would persuade LV that it was authentic intelligence.

DD turned it off--and bro/OoP member Aberforth stepped up to oust 
the spy-- at the half way point, because this was the best way to 
make the prophesy the ultimate bait.

With the half info Lv will seek the usurper that he's been fearing 
(for every evil overlord's got one) but,  if his initial attempts to 
kill are thwarted, he want to hear it all.  So, there is bait to 
spare.

I think we are all agreed that knowing the second half of the 
prophecy doesn't give LV anything.  We won't belabor that.  It is 
the not-knowing that draws LV.  That's the only reason to keep that 
half secret.

What the second half of the Prophesy does do is convince Harry he's 
The One.  That's what it's meant to do.  That's why DD set it up 
that way.


(By the way, in addition to the stuff I wrote earlier about JKR's 
lame explanation, I'll add that ALL of the reasons that Harry wants 
to kill LV do stem from the prophecy--because LV's instigating 
actions do.)

So, DD is the author of the Prophesy; by whatever means, he can make 
it come out of Trelwney's mouth.  He turned it off where he wanted 
Snape's info to end, and then finished it (for use with Harry) after 
Snape had been escorted out.

This comports completely with DD planting the 2nd prophecy through 
Trelawney on the eve of the finalization of his scheme to send 
Wormtail back for LV.

Regarding the Chosen One, it's interesting that both options were 
OoP babies.  Moreover, I don't think DD's belief that Harry would 
make a better Chosen One than Neville (per JKR's site) was something 
that he came to after Harry arrived at Hogwarts.

I think it was up front--whether by some magical assessment, or 
simply by considering parentage.

Therefore, I think he pulled some strings to *help* LV see it that 
way, too.  DD had some plan to *create* Weapon!Harry (as I've 
speculated before--do you recall, Anne?) out of what was to be a 
failed attempt on his life.

DD arranged GH, just as he has arranged every other meeting between 
Harry and LV.

Did things go worse than planned?  Ah, well. 

Sure Harry's blood is precious.  A huge price has been paid for this 
particular *blend.*

Have another cup of green stuff Guilty!DD.

Here, specifically:
Dumbledore's Original Prophesies' Engineer: D.O.P.E.

Talisman, noticing that DD assures Draco that deaths can be faked, 
and people can be successfully hidden from LV and the DEs.

Not quite what he told Harry in OoP.
  
And not, alas, the Potters.  



























From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 21:52:46 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:52:46 -0000
Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories
In-Reply-To: <000601c5908e$94a00d00$1558aacf@...>
Message-ID: <dc12je+pu7k@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> wrote:
> Amandageist originally:
> > > (1) PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. Canon
> supports this:
> 
> Lyn answered:
> > Yes, but then there is this little problem of Slughorn's memory. DD has
> the one copy, but
> > another unaltered copy still resides in Slughorn's head. Either this is a
> Flint, or memories
> > can exist in both places if the owner so chooses.
> 
> Amandageist responds:
> I'd think it would be that Slughorn gave him a "construct" memory--a fake
> one, made from the real and then (clumsily) readjusted. He retained the real
> one and gave a fake one. This is me winging it, but so much canon supports
> the memory being "removed" that I think adjusted memories may be separate
> items, provided under false pretenses.

Lyn now: 
This strikes me as a plausible explanation, but not without some complications. If the 
Pensieve reveals, as JKR now indicates, the entirety of the events that took place at that 
moment (a neuropsychological impossibility, by the way), then the events exceed one's 
memory. So, one wonders, does it require a Pensieve to edit a "memory." Of course if their 
are multiple Pensieves and more capable editors, then the who reliability of the Pensieve 
goes down the drain. 

At another level, I still find the broad idea of memories being removed in their entirety 
troublesome, though I agree with you at a more specific level. As we all know, we have 
memories of memories, and our memories are located in a larger context that is often as 
revealing of content as the specific memory itself. Of course JKR doesn't have to follow real 
world phenomenon in her story.  Associating this to some canon, we have the scene in 
Snape finding Harry with his head immersed in the Pensieve (OOTP, pg 649 Scholastic HB): 
"Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?"said Snape....

This implies that Snape either 1). knew exactly the content of the memory that Harry had 
just experienced, or 2). retained enough of the context of the memory that even without 
having access to the specifics, he understood the theme and general content. In either 
case, it would seem to me that this would make the Pensieve a poor means to hide 
necessary information (say from Voldemort), for to sufficiently remove the target 
information would require such additional large scale memory/experience removals as to 
undermine the person's ability to retain a sense of self and action.    
> 
> Amandageist originally:
> > > Maybe Dumbledore wasn't making up his mind; maybe he didn't have that
> > > information to give. The timeframe of this exchange is that Dumbledore
> has
> > > called Harry to his office to go try to find and destroy a Horcrux. This
> is
> > > a time I would expect Dumbledore to have removed any memories that could
> > > endanger the cause. So he told Harry all he honestly could at that
> > > moment--and what he could tell him matched what Snape has told Voldemort
> and
> > > the DEs: Snape spun a tale of remorse and Dumbledore trusts him
> completely.
> 
> Lyn responded:
> > But, at a  minimum, he still knew he had memories stored, and what they
> were (how else
> > would one ever recover them, or go back to peruse them, and how else would
> Snape know,
> > and he did indicate he knew, what Harry was seeing of Snape's own
> memories).   And it DD
> > knew what that the reason was stored, and it likely was in his office as
> that is where all the
> > other  memories have been stored, he could have pulled out the bottle
> right then and
> > there, just like he did for the other  memories. Hence, I still believe
> there is much more to
> > why DD doesn't let Harry know.
> 
> Amandageist now:
> I'll grant there's more. Even given that, though, I can think of at least
> two reasons not to stop right then. One, and not least in my mind--if it
> involved Snape, Harry is in no state to hear it right then. He's in a state
> of very high dudgeon, having just found out about Snape reporting the
> prophecy to Voldemort. Not the most receptive time; he cannot be objective
> about Snape when he's calm. Two, there's a time factor. Dumbledore had
> summoned Harry to his office to accompany him going after the Horcrux; Harry
> ran into Trelawney on the way. There may not be *time* to uncork the bottle;
> so Dumbledore asks for Harry's trust on that point.
> 
> Did that answer well enough?

Lyn Now:
Amandageist, I find your arguments almost always to be thorough, and enjoyable for me 
to read.  I think where we agree on this, FWIW, is that DD had other reasons not to reveal 
the information to Harry.

Back to Amandageist's most recent response:
> 
> I also YM'd with Nora last night, and had a couple more thoughts:
> 
> Nora said that most of the "Snape in deep cover" theories are predicated
> upon the Order and Harry not knowing what Snape is up to--if they knew,
> Snape would be in trouble. If this is true, *then* any posthumous revelation
> on Dumbledore's part would break the cover, as Harry is not likely not to
> share.
> 
> To which I responded: I think the content will be such that Harry will
> (a) immediately understand why D didn't say, and
> (b) immediately wish he himself still didn't know, and
> (c) realize why he can't tell anyone else, putting him in the same position
> D was in.
> 
> And Harry knowing, with his lousy skills at Occlumency, is a definite
> danger. Making my old prediction of a scenario where he must trust Snape to
> shield him from Voldemort in a confrontation, even more likely.
> 
> Cool.
> 
Lyn now:
Yah, I think this is way cool and I personally would like to see it come out that way. 





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 22:06:42 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:06:42 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dbogad+pp9n@...>
Message-ID: <dc13di+bdoq@...>

space
the final
frontier...
to 
boldy go
where 
no
man
has
gone 
before
or 
not

 
> Pippin:
> Sure -- but Draco didn't *try* to kill Dumbledore. He lowered his
> wand. Snape tried, thus carrying out the deed Draco failed to
> perform, the one he was ordered to do, and also failed to kill 
him.  
> Mischief managed.  Snape made much of the fact that the Dark Lord 
> _didn't _ expect Draco to succeed. And Narcissa agreed. So Snape
> did just  _exactly_  what the Dark Lord had ordered Draco to do.
> 
> Dumbledore died of the poison, IMO, before he ever reached the
> ground, and this give us the delicious possibilty of 
> Accessory!ESE!Lupin, who could have learned of the raid from his 
> werewolf contacts and failed to warn the Order. 

Potioncat:
OK, one more time. Speak slowly and a little louder. I don't quite 
get this.

If DD died, what is the issue on whether it was Snape's AK or not. 
And how does that affect Snape? Are you saying that Snape avoided 
killing him by having him float to the ground as he died, or are you 
saying that Snape thinks he killed him...? I just can't understand 
how death by a horrible fall would be better than death by AK.

Secondly, do you think DD is really dead or just merely dead? I 
recall one Arthur/Merlin story (was it Stewart's?) in which Merlin 
was placed in the crystal cave, but he wasn't dead. He was able to 
live comfortably, and still had contact with Arthur. But I think JKR 
has stated that DD is dead. 

I think, after only one read, that Snape killed DD as agreed upon in 
a last ditch effort to some greater good. 

And back to SSSusan's question on probably a different thread, I 
would think that Snape could 'speak' a spell, but instead 'issue' a 
non verbal spell.

Kathy W.






From heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 22:38:28 2005
From: heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:38:28 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Graveyard Horcrux?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c5908e$fb6ce260$1558aacf@...>
References: <000e01c5908e$fb6ce260$1558aacf@...>
Message-ID: <1122244711.14571BA6@...>


On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 1:52 pm, Amanda Geist wrote:
>
> So, he still had killed Cedric and could have made one...if he'd 
> thought
> about it--what would it have been?
> Tombstone?
> Wormtail's hand?
> Triwizard cup?

He couldn't have made one from Cedric as Wormtail did that killing. And 
Wormtail was the reason I had a problem with the horcrux concept, 
unfortunately. Wormtail killed a dozen people in one blow, but even if 
it split his soul, did he do any horcruxing? Has Voldemort taught the 
trick to any death eaters, and is that why they're so dangerous, because 
they kill other wizards to split their own souls? Or has he held the 
information for himself?

Heidi



From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 22:52:14 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (mgrantwich)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:52:14 -0000
Subject: Question re Chapter 13 - The Secret Riddle
Message-ID: <dc162u+n6c2@...>

Harry and Dumbledore go pensieve-diving into Dumbledore's memory of 
meeting the 11-year-old Tom Riddle at the orphanage and telling him 
the news about going to Hogwarts.  Dumbledore is obviously disturbed 
at Tom's (probably regretted later once he'd got over the shock) 
comments that he can control and/or hurt people and animals if he 
wants to.  

Given Dumbledore's concern, wasn't it just a bit...off-message, shall 
we say....to respond to Tom's request for a magic demonstration by 
torching his wardrobe in a display of intimidating power?  Not to 
mention just a little OOC for Dumbledore?

What would a clearly disturbed and ammoral 11-year-old take from such 
a performance?

Magda






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 23:36:18 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:36:18 -0000
Subject: Peverell history....and a bit on golden locket(s)
Message-ID: <dc18li+vd9b@...>

If you've not read it yet, then these won't mean a thing


Horcruces
Horlickses
Horsecrutches
Hoarcrumbles
Whorecrushers
Hoarsecrotchets
Hawkrocker
Horsepox
Horseheads
Horsecluxes
Horkusses
Horseradish
Horthingy


. But they cry out for cataloguing


Alas, I've not had time to respond to so many posts that I'd like to, 
and have only glanced at the main list, so apologies if this has 
already been picked over.

This line in Chapter 10 caught my eye as I was re-reading today:

(Marvolo Gaunt waves his ring at Ogden): `Centuries it's been in our 
family, that's how far we go, and pure-blood all the way! Know how 
much I've been offered for this, with the Peverell coat of arms 
engraved on the stone?'

I already knew Peverell was an old English surname, but was hazy as 
to its origins. Some digging this afternoon turned up the following 
fascinating nuggets:

The best-known Peverell was William Peverell, an illegitimate son of 
William the Conqueror (7th Duke of Normandy/King of England after 
1066) and one Maud Peverel. Ie, he was a Norman, not British born.

William Peverell fought with the king at the Battle of Hastings and 
for this loyalty he was granted more than 160 lordships in the 
counties of Nottingham and Derby, and vast estates in Cornwall and 
Devon, as recorded in the Doomsday Book in 1086. These properties 
included Chatsworth (although not the famous house, of course, which 
was not yet built), Nottingham Castle, and (Kneasy, please note) 
Whittington Castle.

The Peverells all took the title of Earl of Nottingham until Richard 
1 (Lionheart) gave their lands to his brother John before departing 
for his crusades. One of these Lords of Nottingham is even said to 
have poisoned one Hugh of Kevelioc de Meschines, a Welshman, in 1153, 
and then to have turned monk in order to avoid punishment. Shades of 
the Bloody Baron perhaps ??

I don't expect that JKR intended a close historical link, but it did 
strike me as interesting that the Peverells were originally Norman, 
as many have suspected the Malfoys and other pure-blood DE families 
might have been. This would support Marvolo's claim of a centuries-
old bloodline. 

Also that the Peverell estates included both the counties of Devon 
and Derbyshire, and areas on the Welsh borders, all of which would be 
suitable locations for the Hangleton villages.

`Gaunt' itself is a corruption of `Ghent', as in John of Gaunt (son 
of Edward III, the Black Prince), lending more European origins to 
the Slytherin line.

Far-fetched ? Maybe, but JKR did say in the recent Mugglenet 
interview:

`It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the 
Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global 
Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on.
MA: Do they feed each other, the Muggle and wizarding wars? 
JKR: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Mm.

*******
On the locket, has anyone counted up just how many there are in this 
story? 

Both Ron and Mrs Weasley were given gold necklaces/lockets for 
Christmas by Lavender and Fred & George respectively. So ?

-the one at 12 GP: DD probably put his brother Aberforth up to 
receiving stolen goods from Mundungus to make sure it was found
-Ron shoves the necklace out of sight as soon as he receives it and 
it isn't heard of again. As all their post is being checked, would be 
a good way of someone getting something hidden away safely.
-Similarly, Mrs W's gift ? who would suspect it?

Carolyn
Pleased to see Carolina posting again after so long ? never apologise 
for the wicked Spanglish!








From kirst_inn at kirstinipie.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 24 23:47:12 2005
From: kirst_inn at kirstinipie.yahoo.invalid (Kirstin Innes)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:47:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Red Herring Tonks and the Ax (or some tiny clue picking)
In-Reply-To: <1122232053.2223.66989.m32@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20050724234712.84822.qmail@...>


I spoil
You spoil
He spoils
She spoils
It spoils
We spoil
They spoileth

Two small points  I dont quite have the gorm back to
start posting all over the board. However - 

ewe2 quoting Our Lady of the Scarlet
Herringi/Herringus:
>> " ...there is no place for romance in a detective
story except that 
>>it can be useful to camouflage other people's
motives. That's true; >>it is a very useful trick.
I've used that on Percy and I've used that >>to a
degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring."
<snip>
Catherine:
>Does it though?  I'm wondering whether she's kind of
mis-spoke here.  
>The thing with Percy and what was up with him was the
fact that he >*did* have a girlfriend, which was the
explanation for all his odd >behaviour.  Isn't she
saying this is what she's done with Tonks?  And >on
reread, the clues are all definitely there - <snip>

I thought that Tonks in HBP was another of Jos red
herrings  one of the ones that shes always proud
enough of to mention in interviews, but which nobody
really remembers after a full read. A Ludo Bagman.  I
think we were supposed to think that Tonks was Malfoy
with Polyjuice (hence why she cant Morph Out). We
were definitely supposed to think there was something
suspicious about her  there was no need for her at
all otherwise. Not only has she been looking funny all
summer and is the only one to discover Harry under the
Invisibility Cloak on the Hogwarts Express, but she
turns up in the RoR corridor where Malfoy is hiding
out for no reason (walking as though she frequently
strolled up this corridor p436). Then, immediately
afterwards, the big hint: 
Was it his imagination, or did Malfoy, like Tonks,
look thinner? Certainly he looked paler; his skin
still had that greyish tingenone of the swagger that
he had had on the Hogwarts Express p443

I think she wanted us to think that Tonks rather than
Rosemerta had been placed under some sort of spell,
and divert our attention over thataway. The thing is,
Jo is never quite as obvious about this as Agatha
Christie was, and Imperiused!Rosemerta eventually
played such a small part in the plot that it didnt
quite take hold. She's always very excited about the
way she's placed her red herrings the interviews
immediately preceding and following each book, but the
herrings themselves tend to be overlooked in the
obsessive re-reads when we already know whodiddit.
Ludo Bagman didn't get half the attention that Barty
Crouch Junior did, poor chap.

And moving swiftly on:

My favourite aged drool-flecked portrait, Talisman,
again quoting Our Woman of the Tantalising Hintage to
back her own personal Snapetheory:

>"JKR: Right, well, that's what I believed. Sirius
would have done
>it. He, with all his faults and flaws, he has this
profound sense of
>honor, ultimately, and he would rather have died
honorably, as he
>would see it, than live with the dishonor and shame
of knowing that
>he sent those three people to their deaths, those
three people that
>he loved beyond any others, because like Harry he is
a displaced
>person without family."
>(Talisman: which helps explain why he would
volunteer, in my theory)
>Two agreed hits by Order members on Order members.
It's got to be
>tied to the Horcruxes and LV's defeat. Nothing else
would rate such
>action.

Three agreed hits. Or three hits, anyway, if we
accept, as all non-herringy evidence points to, that
Snape was working under Dumbledores orders as a
double-triple-quadruple-fenuple-schlamuple agent; and
also that Emmeline Vance is actually dead (like Hannah
Abbots mum and the Death Eater that Ginny tells us
the big blonde one has killed, because there must
necessarily be relatively anonymous casualties on both
sides in order to convince us of the seriousness of
the situation).

If Emmeline Vance is dead and Snape is still on the
good side really, then she is a deliberate hit on
Snapes part  a necessary,
not-quite-important-enough-for-Harryhurt killing
carried out to make it look as though Snape was still
on the right side. Which means that Dumbledore must
have been party to it or must at least have sanctioned
the letting of some amount of Order blood. If the
leader of the Order is disposable as a means to
keeping Snapes cover, then so must be every one of
the members of the Order, especially if so far their
only distinction has been to have rosy cheeks and to
have fanon mark them out as Lily Evans old school
friend. I just wonder whether she knew about it or
not.

Kirstin(i), finding increasing plausibility in
Talismans old Spymaster!Dumbledore and his amoral
scheming. Also doubting very much that Neil is off
chasing centaur maids.



		
___________________________________________________________ 
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday 
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com



From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 00:02:25 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:02:25 -0000
Subject: Ron's Birthday Present
In-Reply-To: <dc0d0k+5uit@...>
Message-ID: <dc1a6h+kr7d@...>

I 
think
I'll
spend
this
spoiler
space
whinging
about
== oh, look, a post!

Jen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2519 :

<< Ron's birthday watch. It's sort of sad in retrospect. Dumbledore
couldn't wear it anymore on his withered arm and gave it to the
Weasely's to give to Ron (is my thinking). >>

As I posted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2247 :
<< The watches are described differently. DD's in PS/SS "It was a
very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little
planets were moving around the edge." Ron's watch in HBP: "a heavy
gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars
instead of hands."

Ron's watch - no hands. DD's watch - 12 hands.
Ron's watch - odd symbols. DD's watch - no mention of odd symbols.
Ron's watch - moving stars. DD's watch - moving planets.
I also think that 'instead of hands' is a bit closer to the center
than 'around the edge'. >>







From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 00:15:12 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:15:12 -0000
Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories
In-Reply-To: <dc02il+etr3@...>
Message-ID: <dc1aug+l7sk@...>



Memories 
light 
the 
corner 
of 
my 
mind 
misty 
water 
colored 
memories 
of 
the 
way 
we 
were

Kneasy:
A further question - if someone dies with memories missing, does that
mean that they are missing from any post-death animated representation
of them? 'Cos I was sort of relying on DD's portrait launching into 
the
final explication at the end of book 7. But if he's got memory blanks 
that
exercise might be less than complete.

Snow:

Very interesting question about memories!

If LV put a memory into a diary and that was construed, as a bit of 
his soul, then are all memories a bit of someone's soul that denies 
you to go to the great beyond without them? You are not whole if you 
have left a piece of yourself in your thoughts separate from your 
body and its main soul when you depart, right? 

You could split this into two thoughts; (a) the ghosts and portraits 
of Hogwarts are a memory of themselves that are left purposely so 
that the whole spirit could not leave the earth (b) and (in 
Voldemort's case) those memories that are left as Horcrux's are the 
result of the killing of someone else's soul therefore allowing his 
Horcrux-memory the ability of regeneration. (This is why I felt that 
the potion that Dumbledore drank was an echo of the memories LV used 
as Horcrux's. LV didn't use a vial for his memories but used a bowl 
instead to store them collectively. Each goblet full of potion that 
Dumbledore drank was one memory of a person that LV killed or 
attempted to) 

In other words it's the memories left behind that keeps the whole 
person from his next great adventure. It will keep them here even if 
it is merely a ghostly portrayal of oneself. If you add to that 
mixture, by killing someone else, when you place the memory in the 
Horcrux item you have now sealed a possibility of re-creation. 

Just trying to connect the dots. We were told that we would 
eventually know more about the ghosts and why they had chose to 
become a ghost instead of death but zilch even on Moaning Myrtle in 
that respect. Somehow they must be tied into the greater plot or we 
would have had some info given. We have seen the Pencieve in the last 
three books so it is, one would think, of much relevant significance 
to the overall. We have also been introduced to many objects that 
have a bit of life in them of their previous owners (the sorting hat 
and the Marauders Map come to mind), which can also be of 
significance since the four Marauders made the map. We have seen 
James again but we have yet to directly see Sirius, and I do 
emphasize yet and directly. There may be different variations of the 
memory, soul, Horcrux, factor but I think that these three are tied 
together in the end. 

We shall see
how many licks does it take to get to the center of a 
Toosie Pop! 

Snow:

Does anyone else think of this particular forum as one big Pencieve 
of thoughts; stir counterclockwise seven times then add one clockwise 
stir. Pg 190 
Sounds about right, yes? 






From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 00:22:44 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:22:44 -0000
Subject: Question re Chapter 13 - The Secret Riddle
In-Reply-To: <dc162u+n6c2@...>
Message-ID: <dc1bck+gvsc@...>

I'm in the middle of re-reading this

chapter and had a couple of thoughts

to add. Seeing as I can't come up with a 

catchy spoiler space at the moment,

I'll just twiddle my thumbs for a

moment before gettting to the good part.

Magda:
> Dumbledore is obviously disturbed at Tom's (probably regretted 
later
> once he'd got over the shock) comments that he can control and/or
> hurt people and animals if he wants to.  
> 
> Given Dumbledore's concern, wasn't it just a bit...off-message,
> shall we say....to respond to Tom's request for a magic 
> demonstration by torching his wardrobe in a display of 
intimidating 
> power?  Not to mention just a little OOC for Dumbledore?
 
> What would a clearly disturbed and ammoral 11-year-old take from 
such 
> a performance?

Jen: You know, first read-through it seemed like a power-play--
'watch out Tom Riddle, you may think you understand magic but you 
don't know the power involved here'.

Now I think it was more of an insurance policy. Tom is intrigued by 
the idea of being a wizard, but he still has the rather large flaw 
of trying to do everything by himself. The WW can't risk the likes 
of Tom out there trying to learn magic by himself, and probably DD 
has hopes they can turn him around at Hogwarts, with proper 
training. So Dumbledore wants to put on an impressive display, to 
ensure TR won't back out in the end.  Turning a teacup into a rat 
might not be the most convincing demonstration!

I really think some of it was just Dumbledore as a younger man, too. 
The velvet suit, the long auburn hair. Trying to be a little bit 
cool <g>. He learned his lesson with TR though, didn't he? And by 
the time Harry came along there was no more fooling around.

Jen






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 00:32:37 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:32:37 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
Message-ID: <dc1bv5+qqc0@...>

To The Coy Moderators

Had we but world enough, and Time,
This Spoiling business were no crime.
We would sit and think of each new way
To fill up space the live long day.

Mods, holding up their weary side, 
Should'st policy bind: I rather wide
And loudly would complain.  I would
>From tears profuse create a Flood.
<snip>

An Age we would pursue this Art,
An Age to melt a Modie's heart.
(Tho' Neil, you do deserve to bake, 
For making Vows you cannot break.)

But at my back I alwaies [sic] hear,
Those other Theorists drawing near.
And Carpal Tunnel is taking place,
In Deserts of typed Spoiler Space.
<snip>

Now therefore, while we still recall the Cite,    
Leave us with the strength to Fight.
Now, ere another interview 
Makes us want to drink Green Goo.
Now let us post and freely play,
Without a Spoiler debt to pay.  

And rather at once reveal our Wit  
Than languish in this Spoiler @#$%. 

(With thanks to Andrew Marvell for his remarkable impatience.)

* * * * *

Another feral thought skittered through my cranium this morning, in 
that twilight between sleep and waking.

I had already decided that the locket Hx is tucked up in Kreature's 
bed.  

It now also occurs to me that Kreature was Regulus' assistant in 
retrieving it.  

There would be only one wizard for the enchanted boat to sense.  

Kreature would have to obey Reg's orders to make him finish drinking 
the potion, and also to make sure that both he and the locket made 
it back out again. (Or, perhaps Reg made Kreature drink the gop; 
that would explain his sunny personality. <g>.)

If further defensive magic was needed to escape the Inferi, even if 
Reg was debilitated, House Elf's have their own potent brand.  

As Reg was killed within a few days of leaving the DEs, and would 
have been suffering the effects of green gop, it's no wonder he 
didn't have time to destroy the locket Hx.

But, oh lucky day, Harry has inherited Kreature, too.

All he's got to do is put two and two together (or perhaps Hermione 
can do that part) and then order Kreature to hand it over.

If Harry manages to be bright, he could go on and ask Kreature about 
a lot of things. What else Reg knew about Hxes, for a start. There's 
probably a wealth of info in that little beastie; and, not just 
about Hxes.

Talisman, saying: sure Regulus erred in joining the DEs. But he was 
very young and very brave to leave them--knowing it meant certain 
death--not to mention to go after the locket. 

 I agree that DD had previous info on the cave. Sirius doesn't 
acknowledge his brother's final nobility, but DD *could* plumb 
Kreature's grey matter (and did).  Hmmmm.






From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 00:38:01 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:38:01 -0000
Subject: Ron's Birthday Present
In-Reply-To: <dc1a6h+kr7d@...>
Message-ID: <dc1c99+chtn@...>

Sorry I missed your first post on this 

catlady, but your thoughts make this 

a more interesting topic so I'm 

glad you re-posted.

catlady:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2247 :
> << The watches are described differently. DD's in PS/SS "It was a
> very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little
> planets were moving around the edge." Ron's watch in HBP: "a heavy
> gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars
> instead of hands."
> 
> Ron's watch - no hands. DD's watch - 12 hands.
> Ron's watch - odd symbols. DD's watch - no mention of odd symbols.
> Ron's watch - moving stars. DD's watch - moving planets.
> I also think that 'instead of hands' is a bit closer to the center
> than 'around the edge'. >>

Jen: So now I really don't think this was a throwaway birthday 
present. Weasleys, somehow the owners of a completely unique magical 
clock, are also in possession of this odd watch that doesn't tell 
time.

Although...we still don't know the significance of DD's watch. I 
hope it's not just window-dressing for the story, that JKR feels 
unusual timepieces are fitting for wizards and that's the end of it. 
Has anyone ever asked JKR about the watch and Molly's clock in an 
interview? I don't remember reading hearing anything about it.

Jen





From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 01:07:33 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:07:33 -0000
Subject: Question re Chapter 13 - The Secret Riddle
In-Reply-To: <dc162u+n6c2@...>
Message-ID: <dc1e0l+janh@...>



La La
Tra La la
Tra La La la
Tra La La La la

Enough 
is 
Enough
In La La Land

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mgrantwich" <mgrantwich at y...> 
wrote:
> Harry and Dumbledore go pensieve-diving into Dumbledore's memory of 
> meeting the 11-year-old Tom Riddle at the orphanage and telling him 
> the news about going to Hogwarts.  Dumbledore is obviously disturbed 
> at Tom's (probably regretted later once he'd got over the shock) 
> comments that he can control and/or hurt people and animals if he 
> wants to.  
> 
> Given Dumbledore's concern, wasn't it just a bit...off-message, shall 
> we say....to respond to Tom's request for a magic demonstration by 
> torching his wardrobe in a display of intimidating power?  Not to 
> mention just a little OOC for Dumbledore?
> 
> What would a clearly disturbed and ammoral 11-year-old take from such 
> a performance?
> 
> Magda

Snow:


I would think that a wizard of Dumbledore's caliber would want to test 
the waters
see the response for himself
to know who he is really 
dealing with given Tom's birthright gifts. To me it was nothing more 
than a test of Tom's reactions to wand like magic, which is exactly 
what Tom's ultimate reaction was " Where can I get one of them" pg. 272 
Tom was eagerly enthused with what Dumbledore displayed to him with a 
wand. And likewise Dumbledore was less than enthused with the eagerness 
he saw in young Tom's eyes. 

Even back then, when Dumbledore first laid eyes on young Tom Riddle, 
Dumbledore suspected an extraordinary boy, from his accounts by Mrs. 
Cole, but one who had already displayed his favor of bullying others 
and experimenting with his unknown gifts beyond his years. What better 
way to see if he was right than to test Tom by visualizing real magic 
to him? From then on Dumbledore was weary of Tom, to the point that he 
watched him closely and I would imagine even more so once the Phoenix 
feather recognized him for his wand. Or is that why Dumbledore created 
that wand through his Phoenix Fawkes
to help in keeping an eye on him? 

Snow







From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 01:58:40 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:58:40 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dc1bv5+qqc0@...>
Message-ID: <dc1h0g+em17@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
> To The Coy Moderators
> 
> Had we but world enough, and Time,
> This Spoiling business were no crime.
> We would sit and think of each new way
> To fill up space the live long day.
> 
> Mods, holding up their weary side, 
> Should'st policy bind: I rather wide
> And loudly would complain.  I would
> From tears profuse create a Flood.
> <snip>
> 
> An Age we would pursue this Art,
> An Age to melt a Modie's heart.
> (Tho' Neil, you do deserve to bake, 
> For making Vows you cannot break.)
> 
> But at my back I alwaies [sic] hear,
> Those other Theorists drawing near.
> And Carpal Tunnel is taking place,
> In Deserts of typed Spoiler Space.

> 
> Another feral thought skittered through my cranium this morning, in 
> that twilight between sleep and waking.
> 
> I had already decided that the locket Hx is tucked up in Kreature's 
> bed.  
> 
> It now also occurs to me that Kreature was Regulus' assistant in 
> retrieving it.  
> 
> There would be only one wizard for the enchanted boat to sense.  
> 
> Kreature would have to obey Reg's orders to make him finish 
drinking 
> the potion, and also to make sure that both he and the locket made 
> it back out again. (Or, perhaps Reg made Kreature drink the gop; 
> that would explain his sunny personality. <g>.)
> 
> If further defensive magic was needed to escape the Inferi, even if 
> Reg was debilitated, House Elf's have their own potent brand.  
> 
> As Reg was killed within a few days of leaving the DEs, and would 
> have been suffering the effects of green gop, it's no wonder he 
> didn't have time to destroy the locket Hx.
> 
> But, oh lucky day, Harry has inherited Kreature, too.
> 
> All he's got to do is put two and two together (or perhaps Hermione 
> can do that part) and then order Kreature to hand it over.
> 
> If Harry manages to be bright, he could go on and ask Kreature 
about 
> a lot of things. What else Reg knew about Hxes, for a start. 
There's 
> probably a wealth of info in that little beastie; and, not just 
> about Hxes.
> 
> Talisman, saying: sure Regulus erred in joining the DEs. But he was 
> very young and very brave to leave them--knowing it meant certain 
> death--not to mention to go after the locket. 
> 
>  I agree that DD had previous info on the cave. Sirius doesn't 
> acknowledge his brother's final nobility, but DD *could* plumb 
> Kreature's grey matter (and did).  Hmmmm.


Snow:

I like it, I really like it!

When I first read your thoughts on this matter, I was drawn to Sirius 
as his brother's accomplice in the search for the Golden Fleece, I 
mean Horcrux, for the reasons that you stated of how someone needed 
to take the soul beyond
but after all the reviewing with new 
information, I like this new scenario that would also have given 
Sirius pertinent information if Sirius was to demand it of the little 
heathen Kreacher.  

Those little darlings (toe-rags) are there for more than just 
Hermione's activist-supporter-red-herrings-of-injustice. Kreacher, 
the one we all want to loathe, could be greater than we have yet seen 
him to be. Neigh unwillingly. 

Snow-who's grateful to go outside the world of numb momentarily  







From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 05:44:09 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:44:09 -0000
Subject: Suspicions about Neil (few spoilers and kinds OT)
In-Reply-To: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGKEJNDFAA.neilward@...>
Message-ID: <dc1u79+fae3@...>

Neil wrote:
> People are under the impression that I alone hold the power to 
release them
> from the chains of their highly imaginative use of spoiler space.  
However,
> despite Talisman's poetic pleas, I made an Unbreakable Vow to my 
fellow
> moderators.  I am bound, but soon, my dears, very soon...


Ginger:
Hmm, when was this vow made, Neil?  I would assume it was made 
*beofre* the release of HBP?

So, if you knew about this particular plot devise *in advance* we 
must, in the spirit of a spoiler-free tomorrow, find out how you came 
into possession of this tidbit.

Possibilities:
1)  Neil had an advance copy.
    a)  Neil works for/ has access to the publisher.
    b)  Neil is the publisher.
    
2)  Neil knew of the spell from other sources.
    a)  Neil is a wizard.
    b)  Neil is a squib.

3)  Neil has infiltrated JKR's life.
    a)  Neil has an invisibility cloak and lurks about when JKR is 
out.
    b)  Neil is a Legilimance and has seen the secrets of JKR's mind.
    c)  Neil is JKR, in which case I must say, Neil, that I saw your 
interview with Katie Couric and you look fabulous for just having had 
a baby.

Whereas Neil has shown that he is privy to the secrets of the 
Potterverse, I make the motion that anything Neil says in the future 
be considered a spoiler, and that he be condemned to use spoiler 
space on all his posts until after the release of Book 7.

All in favour?

Ginger, wondering who the binder was in this matter.






From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 06:08:56 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:08:56 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Suspicions about Neil (few spoilers and kinds OT)
In-Reply-To: <dc1u79+fae3@...>
References: <MCBBLKIPNKBOEBHFIPHGKEJNDFAA.neilward@...> <dc1u79+fae3@...>
Message-ID: <20050725060856.GB13349@...>

On Mon, Jul 25, 2005 at 05:44:09AM -0000, quigonginger wrote:

> Whereas Neil has shown that he is privy to the secrets of the 
> Potterverse, I make the motion that anything Neil says in the future 
> be considered a spoiler, and that he be condemned to use spoiler 
> space on all his posts until after the release of Book 7.
> 
> All in favour?
> 

Seconded, with the proviso that no two spoiler spaces can be in any way
similar. Let he who hath enjoyment of our invention, add further to it.

> Ginger, wondering who the binder was in this matter.

Winky is a Bad House Elf who unfortunately can be had for the price of a
Butterbeer. I'm sure she's seen the error of her ways...

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 10:06:17 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:06:17 -0000
Subject: Graveyard Horcrux?
In-Reply-To: <1122244711.14571BA6@...>
Message-ID: <dc2dip+107o3@...>

What
has
Voldemort
done
with
his
hormones?


Heidi:

>  Has Voldemort taught the 
> trick to any death eaters, and is that why they're so dangerous, 
because 
> they kill other wizards to split their own souls? Or has he held the 
> information for himself?

Good question.  I have been speculating that, while they probably know 
very little of Voldemort's own Horcruxes, the name Death Eater implies 
(as I suspected post-GOF) that they prolong their lives by killing 
others and that therefore, yes, they know about Horcruxes as a 
technique and may have started making them.

It would be hard for Voldemort to prevent them from finding out as the 
idea is not original to him.

David






From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 10:07:28 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:07:28 -0000
Subject: Suspicions about Neil (few spoilers and kinds OT)
In-Reply-To: <dc1u79+fae3@...>
Message-ID: <dc2dl0+ar8b@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" 
<quigonginger at y...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Ginger:

> 
> So, if you knew about this particular plot devise *in advance* we 
> must, in the spirit of a spoiler-free tomorrow, find out how you 
came 
> into possession of this tidbit.

Imposter!Neil: his intent to spoil all our fun. Dan Brown has 
infiltrated Bloomsbury and in an act of professional jealousy 
intends to defeat JKR's domination!

>
I make the motion that anything Neil says in the future 
> be considered a spoiler, and that he be condemned to use spoiler 
> space on all his posts until after the release of Book 7.
> 
> All in favour?
> 


Constant Vigilance.

Jo






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 10:29:47 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:29:47 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dc1bv5+qqc0@...>
Message-ID: <dc2eur+8goa@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Another feral thought skittered through my cranium this morning, in 
> that twilight between sleep and waking.

Hours of sleep:

Nature needs five,
Custom takes seven,
Laziness takes nine,
And wickedness eleven.
> 
How that works out transatlantic is anyone's guess.

**********
Whatever, I'm working on about three hours sleep average at the 
moment, so mucho apologies for not responding to your wonderful 
postings this last week.

Probably, this has all been explained by now, but:

> I had already decided that the locket Hx is tucked up in Kreature's 
> bed.  
> 
> It now also occurs to me that Kreature was Regulus' assistant in 
> retrieving it.  
> 

What I just don't get is why anyone thinks Regulus is up to 
retrieving the locket in the first place, and re-creating/inventing a 
very complex potion, then leaving everything shipshape and tidy so no 
one notices he's been there.

Of course the initials are suggestive, but is this more misdirection? 
The relevant exchange on the Mugglenet interview was:

********
MA:We've come up with Regulus Black. 
JKR: Have you now?
MA: Uh-oh.[Laughter.] 
JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess.
I was really hoping someone would ask me about R.A.B....There are 
things you will deduce on further readings, I think ? well you two 
definitely will, for sure ? that, yeah, I was really hoping that 
R.A.B. would come out. 
MA: was Regulus the one who was murdered by Voldemort ?
JKR: Well Sirius said he wouldn't have been because he wasn't 
important enough, remember?
MA: But that doesn't have to be true, if [R.A.B.] is writing 
Voldemort a personal note.
JKR: That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort killed him, 
personally, but Sirius himself suspected that Regulus got in a little 
too deep. Like Draco. He was attracted to it, but the reality of what 
it meant was way too much to handle.
*********

Firstly, as has already been pointed out I think, Voldemort doesn't 
seem to know his locket is missing, so he has no big reason to kill 
Regulus apart from Reg wimping out of being a DE. And, surely, if 
Voldemort had read that note, he wouldn't have left it there for the 
next person to find? What would have been the point, except 
humiliation for him?

Secondly, JKR herself draws a parallel with Draco, and this seems 
obvious to me too. Draco wasn't up to the job at 16, and it seems 
startlingly unlikely that a 16-17 year old Regulus was either. Think 
about it. For almost the entire series we have had dinned into our 
heads that only Voldemort and Harry have had skills that come close 
to DD's, and it wiped DD out dealing with the potion and the Inferi.

Thirdly, the person who did do it could only have found the cave if 
they knew something of young Tom Riddle's past, and as DD has pointed 
out, very, very few people do. I could accept that they took Regulus 
along as an underage assistant, and possibly made him drink the 
potion and that's why he both ran away and subsequently died, but not 
that he organised the expedition.

So why would the perpetrator leave Regulus' initials on the note? The 
only conclusion is that they are not his initials, but perhaps 
another member of the Black family. What exactly happened to Sirius' 
and Regulus' father, for instance? He'd be the right age to have gone 
to school with Riddle. 

Carolyn
Also wondering what exactly Sluggy did on those two days he took 
Felix Felicis, when he was 24 and 57.








From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 10:50:45 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:50:45 -0000
Subject: HP Timeline: Neville, Harry, Spoilery
In-Reply-To: <dc0otf+5e1i@...>
Message-ID: <dc2g65+t9gi@...>

'This will not do,' said Elizabeth.
You will never be able to make both of them good for anything.
Take your choice, but you must be satisfied with only one.
There is but such a quantity of merit between them; just enough to 
make one good sort of man; and of late it has been shifting about 
pretty much.'

Elizabeth Bennet in
Pride and Predjudice
by Jane Austen

'Phooey'
Mooseming
TOC






--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:

> > > 
> That's a thought Jo, because Snape took the Potions position at
> Hogwarts in 1981.  So we can make the assumption that not only did
> Snape eavesdrop on the Prophecy, but he also gave Voldie the names 
of
> Neville and Harry. That would make the leading up to events in 
October
> 1981 like this:
> 
> Before October:
> 1. Snape confesses to Dumbledore that he's a Death Eater, he's seen
> the light, he wants out, and oh by the way, he heard the prophecy 
and
> he passed it onto Voldie.
> 2. A convinced Dumbledore hires Snape.
> 3. Snape looks in the Book of Magical Children and passes that 
info to
> Voldie.
> 4. Voldie makes his choice.
> 
> During October:
> 1. Dumbledore informed that a spy betrayed the Potters (possibly by
> Snape who does this in an attempt to flush the Potters out for 
Voldie) 
> 2. October 24: Pettigrew made Secret Keeper and Potters go into 
hiding
> at Godric's Hollow  
> 3. Halloween 1981
>  
> Makes sense but it hinges on Snape being "Evil" (and I  think 
Rowling
> gives us good arguments for and against that so she can go either 
way
> in Book 7 and still make it convincing)
> 
> Milz

Ah but does it? There was another spy, Wormtail, active for over a 
year. 'Voldemort went to the Potters on (his) information' PoA, this 
reference could have been to his secret keeper betrayal alone but it 
could also encompass all the information he passed on.  

So timeline is:

Snape overhears prophecy
Tells Voldy
Something happens to Snape/Voldy dynamic which makes Traitor!Snape
Voldy sends Snape to find info on babies at Hogwarts
But Snape joins DD
Snape fails to get info from Hogwarts citing DD mistrust as reason
Voldy sends in Rat as mole
Snape learns of Voldy update, tips off DD
Secret keeper made
Secret keeper blabs
Snape goes to GH to warn Potters but James doesn't believe him 
('You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you 
might be mistaken in Black' Snape in POA)
Harry + Voldy = Vapour!Mort

Voldy reborn
Snape pays a visit and has a lot of explaining to do, but he is 
skilled in Occlumency and there's an antidote to Veritaserum. So he 
could pull it off.

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.











From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 12:30:00 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:30:00 +0200
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The Ax
In-Reply-To: <dc04ej+benp@...>
References: <dc04ej+benp@...>
Message-ID: <200507251430.00283.silmariel@...>


Sort of Spoilers for The Dark Crystal

Carolyn said:
>Pleased to see Carolina posting again after so long - never apologise 
for the wicked Spanglish!

Good to hear from you again, also.

I'm so glad I want to thank again TOC for inviting me so long ago, I've been 
able to lurk in here and so get in touch, I just can't cope with HPfGU 
volume, since last year I've turned into an online game (a MUD) only 
administrator (I mean, we are 10 in the staff, but no one else wants that 
particular work) and game developer (game system and world building) in spare 
time.

<g> Not apologising, exactly... I'm quite happy that my english level is high 
enough for me to communicate in this list. But I know how easy 
misinterpretations get in the way, so I wanted to warn.

Talisman:
> Thanks for throwing me a lifeline, Silmariel.

I owed you one since... Time Travel and The Uber Kitchen <g> I really needed a 
specific lenguage to address time travel - was the first time I talked of TT 
not in mi language and just felt like the more I tried to get understood, the 
more I got drown in muddy waters - and you provided me one.

End of Spoiler Space

Talisman:
> We know Rowling draws freely from many stories.  Prior to HBP's
> release (can't recall where) someone suggested the theory of the
> separately stored soul, noting an old folktale (Chinese?) where an
> evil wizard hid his soul in an egg that had to be found and smashed
> before he could be killed. (Which I actually think I've read, but
> had forgotten.)

>  If you know of  stories where having a soul dab gives extra rights
> with regard to the rest, that increases the likelihood that Rowling
> is using this idea.

A bit of background.

I've read/seen/roleplay more fantasy, terror, and sci-fi than is healthy, and 
I tend to just grab form multiple sources and mix genres. That's why I called 
it 'story device', no idea where it could came from, so I've been thinking 
about it.

Potential sources:

-The Dark Crystal

	I know there are lots of examples of interlaced souls, but this one is clear 
cristal. Not brothers, or clones, nor parallel universes, or heirs 
interlaced, just a splitting case by case of an entire species in two. What 
happens to one happens to the other.

-Vampire: The masquerade

	By means of Diablerie -you keep feeding from a fellow vampire till he dies, 
mental battle included- you can absorb a vampire's 'soul' and part of his 
powers. There's no limit to the number of times you can do this, but that 
'souls' are not destroyed, they live within you. In fact, some beings can 
overpower you with time, or battle against each other for the control of your 
body.

	And the one who gets the control does not get a half prize, as to say, 
instead of it brings his full powers and mental mark, is his new self, with 
all the implications, aura included. <Till the next change>

	They are not very original when grabbing from sources, for what I know. Shame 
I long lost my first edition of the game, it contained a long list of 
bibliography/films.

-Your usual heroine in a castle

	Don't remember where I've seen this one, it feels so generic... a beautiful 
(they always are) heroine set in a castle or ancient manor where she is more 
or less subtly transformed in a present copy of a (usually) former Lady long 
ago dead.

	Our heroine can be a descendant of the family, or just -by pure chance- has 
the looks of the Lady. When the Lady is just trying to posses her, is't 
applicable here, but we also have the opposite case, that the 
'transformation' the heroine suffers makes her able to act as a curse breaker 
where others just can't or usually pay with their lives.

Mix a bit with Hx and you've got it.

> My only lingering concern would be, why not just have Harry destroy
> them all?  He could be the official Hx whacker, rather than make
> anyone else die to do it.
>
> But, Rowling can make as many magical rules as she likes, so there
> may be "some reason."

Giving I don't get too conviced by her explanations sometimes -so you can't 
protest if *I* make a lame excuse-, it can be explained, considering:

-Voldemort has gone where no known wizard had adventured before, and in this 
case I don't count multiple Hx but providing Harry the scar. 

-Harry was under that protection I've never quite understood in CoS, and that 
could enter as a factor.

As DD didn't knew if it was Harry's link or his mother's protection... I mean, 
probably the case is unique and DD didn't exactly knew how could turn the 
events in case he tried, so he didn't. Also, being Harry's scar an (almost? 
don't want to be in L.O.O.N's Black List) unheard case, I supposse there was 
no by-the-book knowledge to apply, nor easy means to stablish exactly what 
the scar meant or implied.

> Talisman, musing: hmmmm, even in this scenario, it's become Harry's
> job to get the Hxes, so Snape can be safe, for awhile. (Tucks black
> arm bands back into embroidery basket.)

That's the best side-effect...

Silmariel



From naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 12:51:13 2005
From: naama_gat at naamagatus.yahoo.invalid (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:51:13 -0000
Subject: Hedgecrumpets (spoilers, of course)
In-Reply-To: <dbg1th+31c1@...>
Message-ID: <dc2n81+830p@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> 
wrote:
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> Spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> 
> 
<snip> 

> I'm not at all convinced that those four remaining items have been 
> correctly identified by DD. Repeatedly we are told he is guessing 
> and that he does make mistakes. I'm actually sold on the locket, 
cup 
> and wand but I think the Nagini option is unlikely. I'm fairly 
> confident it will turn out to be a Gryffindor thing in the end.

Am I the only one (so far - haven't read the rest of the posts) to 
be utterly convinced that the fourth Horcrux is Harry's scar?

Naama







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 11:39:37 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:39:37 +0100
Subject: This and that
Message-ID: <27AC67B4-01B0-44C3-9BCD-CFF1B47EEE36@...>

Spoiler
Space
Can
Be
Re-cycled.
After
It  is
No longer
Needed
Mods
Should
Snip it
Out
And
Send
It back.

Was it like this last time?
So many aspects of the books to discuss, so many posters suggesting  
that this or that particular point deserves addressing - how to cope  
with all the ideas? Images of one-armed paper-hangers or a mutt in a  
lamp-post manufactory spring to mind.

Taking a leaf out of the book of the Furry Fan from California seems  
best.

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...>  
wrote:
 > If Horcruxes are made at significant deaths--isn't it likely  
Voldemort
 > planned to make one that night in the graveyard, after he came back?
 > Maybe  he "used" one to return and needed to replace it. Harry's  
death to be
 > the trigger or whatever.
 >
 > So, he still had killed Cedric and could have made one...if he'd  
thought
 > about it--what would it have been?
 > Tombstone?
 > Wormtail's hand?
 > Triwizard cup?


Graveyard Horseclucks - a possibility, but DD did intimate that he  
thought that His Nastiness would plump for important (and therefore  
probably existing) magical artifacts as repositories.

Tombstone - Battle at the AK Corral.
Dunno about this, not really a portable object, most of the other  
possibilities
seem a bit handier to cart around. And whose stone would he use? Not  
dear old dad surely, Voldy lacks that nice sense of ironic self- 
mockery to pick that one, I'd think.

The one thing Voldy did produce in the graveyard was that silver  
hand. Must have some significant part to play, is it here? Maybe El  
Ratto can be manoeuvred to pay his debt to Harry by some sort of self- 
sacrifice.

The Cup seems to fit the bill better; an unfettered imagination could  
wonder if he intended that in the future names drawn for the TWC end  
up getting the Voldy treatment somehow. Or would it be just the  
Durmstrang champion? But IIRC he ignores the Cup completely.

We're not likely to find one made here, I think. Remember that Voldy  
didn't kill Cedric - it was El Ratto using Voldy's wand, so it wasn't  
really a murder all his own. Would he be able to produce a  
Horseclucks under those circumstances? We've no definitive yea or nay  
from herself, but the odds are probably against it.


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...>  
wrote:
 > If anyone has posted this idea before, by all means let me know.
 > Kindred spirits are a rare find and I wouldn't want to miss one.
 >
 > I agree with all those who put Rowling's boggart comments together
 > with the text and believe DD is experiencing his worst memories in
 > the cave.  (Guilty!DD, indeed.)
 >
 > Attentive readers might also recall that I have been calling the
 > Prophesies nothing more than DD's manipulative devices, for years.
 > (Circa 2003. Really almost did a TBAY back in the day called "DD's
 > Bait Shop"--he's got so much of it.)
 >
 > The answer for me now is that DD *causes* Trelawney to have her
 > prophecies.  He didn't go to the Hog's Head to be accommodating.  As
 > we saw with TR, he would ordinarily conduct job interviews in his
 > office at Hogwarts.

Yes, it has been mentioned as a possibility by Conspiracy Theorists  
previously. (It was in toc post 1461 - a response to one of your  
posts. Tut, tut. The old memory playing tricks again? Or did you  
place it in your personal Pensive and forget about it?) Lets face it,  
Puppetmaster!DD enthusiasts consider that he's more or less to blame  
for everything, including Windows software and plastic packaging.  
They're just his little joke. It (the Prophecy, well, both of 'em  
actually) are the WW version of a nifty bit of ventriloquism,  
artfully engineered by DD to prod folk in the direction he wants them  
to go. But the chickens come home to roost - in the Cave. Unbearable  
guilt and remorse for the consequences of his manipulations.

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...>  
wrote:
 >
 > Now I think it was more of an insurance policy. Tom is intrigued by
 > the idea of being a wizard, but he still has the rather large flaw
 > of trying to do everything by himself. The WW can't risk the likes
 > of Tom out there trying to learn magic by himself, and probably DD
 > has hopes they can turn him around at Hogwarts, with proper
 > training.

One thought did occur.
Tom has been demonstrating his 'powers' for some time.
Would the Underage Magic Watchdogs detect it?
Use of a wand is not necessary - Dobby didn't use one levitating the  
cake and that was noticed. According to canon it's best spotted in  
places where adult wizards aren't likely to be throwing spells around  
- a Muggle orphanage would stick out like a sore thumb. Is this how  
DD was able to track him down?

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2"  
<carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote:
 >
 > What I just don't get is why anyone thinks Regulus is up to
 > retrieving the locket in the first place, and re-creating/inventing a
 > very complex potion, then leaving everything shipshape and tidy so no
 > one notices he's been there.
 >
 > Of course the initials are suggestive, but is this more misdirection?
 > snip
 > The only conclusion is that they are not his initials, but perhaps
 > another member of the Black family. What exactly happened to Sirius'
 > and Regulus' father, for instance? He'd be the right age to have gone
 > to school with Riddle.
 >

Now that the first flush of jumping to conclusions has started to  
fade, Regulus
doesn't look such a hot favourite after all. Only to be expected,  
it's rare that herself offers clues with  such an apparently simple  
solution. If not him, who?
Could be an elder Black seeking a morsel of revenge for the zapping  
of Regulus, of course. We know almost nothing about other males in  
the immediate Black family, all our atention has been directed at the  
wall-mounted nutcase. That it's a Dark Magic encrusted wizard seems  
likely, given how much of it they would need to know to get at the  
locket. And the implication is that they got in, got the locket, re- 
deposited it and got out again. How powerful would they have to be to  
do that? Pretty bloody powerful IMO.

Are they true initials - or another HBP-type nom-de-wand? Ooh! That'd  
be sneaky!

Kneasy
Who thinks Neil used his Time-turner to get a sneak preview.
He keeps it in the attic with a certain portrait - the one with the  
wrinkles.





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 13:34:41 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:34:41 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dc2eur+8goa@...>
Message-ID: <dc2pph+21uc@...>

New personal ranking for HP series:

HBP
POA
PS/SS
COS
GOF 
(or the reverse on the above two, can't decide)
OOTP

Carolyn:
> What I just don't get is why anyone thinks Regulus is up to 
> retrieving the locket in the first place, and re-
creating/inventing a 
> very complex potion, then leaving everything shipshape and tidy so
> no one notices he's been there.

Jen: Maybe because we can't come up with anyone else? It does seem 
too simple, but I'm not the only one who has combed the books for 
someone else and come up empty-handed. It would be like JKR to make 
it look so simple then discover someone else didn't actually go by 
their given name or, god forbid, she invents a new character.

Personally, the only other name I can come up with is one of the 
Bones family, and we don't know first names there. I've also heard 
Borgin or Burkes. I did hear an interesting suggestion that Binns 
could be the one, seeing as we never discovered why he died nor why 
he's a ghost. He would probably be my first choice of the lot!

But maybe you're right that we should be looking for one who would 
be capable of first locating the cave, i.e. knowing enough about TR 
to find it, then having the power to work through the magical 
obstacle course inside.

Carolyn:
> Firstly, as has already been pointed out I think, Voldemort
> doesn't seem to know his locket is missing, so he has no big
> reason to kill Regulus apart from Reg wimping out of being a DE.
> And, surely, if Voldemort had read that note, he wouldn't have 
> left it there for the next person to find? What would have been
> the point, except humiliation for him?

Jen: Dumbledore said he doesn't believe Voldemort knows when a part 
of his soul is destroyed. Maybe he doesn't, but he would certainly 
have some way of knowing when his magical defenses are being 
penetrated; otherwise, what's the use? 

If that premise is true, then the stealing of the locket happened 
when he was Vapormort, like the diary, which he was also unaware of. 
In that case it wouldn't be Regulus. 

Carolyn:
> Thirdly, the person who did do it could only have found the cave
> if they knew something of young Tom Riddle's past, and as DD has
> pointed out, very, very few people do. I could accept that they
> took Regulus along as an underage assistant, and possibly made him
> drink the potion and that's why he both ran away and subsequently
> died, but not that he organised the expedition.

Jen: This is a good point, about finding the cave. It sounds like it 
took DD the better part of 4 years to figure out the Horcrux idea 
and start locating objects. That on top of everything he knew about 
TR to begin with, which was more than anyone else.

I agree with your points about Regulus, his age, his skill level, 
etc. Also, why drag the Blacks back in at this point unless there's 
another mystery involved? We pretty much exhausted the family tree 
and from the evidence we see that many of the living family members 
are loyal to Voldemort, it's hard to argue with Sirius about family 
allegiance. 

But if not Regulus, who else? ;) 

Carolyn
> So why would the perpetrator leave Regulus' initials on the note?
> The only conclusion is that they are not his initials, but perhaps 
> another member of the Black family. What exactly happened to 
> Sirius' and Regulus' father, for instance? He'd be the right age
> to have gone to school with Riddle. 

Jen: Whoever it was wanted credit, for Voldemort alone to know 
he/she had a hand in defeating him. It's odd we didn't hear more 
about Mr. Black, although after meeting the Missus, well, you can 
kind of understand. 

Another thought, asking about old school chums. You do wonder what 
happened to all of them. TR must have made a few enemies at 
Hogwarts, like he did at the orphanage. The only DE we know for sure 
was his age is Avery (unless the Avery in the memory with Riddle and 
Slughorn was the current Avery's father).

Jen, agreeing with Kneasy that RAB could also be a self-given title 
name like HBP or LV.





From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 13:47:50 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:47:50 -0000
Subject: The SPOILER POLICY is at an end
Message-ID: <dc2qi6+ku34@...>

If I may rap...

First, Talisman came over all poetic,
Accusing me of being apathetic
About the spoiler space (she hates to use it).
So, fair enough - I guess it's time to lose it!

Then Ginger made a list of her suspicions
Concerning my connections and admissions.
I'm not JK, her lawyer or her lover,
Nor am I in disguise or undercover.

So how about that Vow, the one I noted,
On which the moderators jointly voted?
I used poetic licence retrospective
To give our stringent rules a new perspective.

But now, it seems the spoiler spell's backfiring;
I'm cursed by those of whom I was admiring.
To evermore fill spoiler space with writing:
That's something I'd find rather uninviting

****

Yes, I've been driving aimlessly around the Forbidden Forest for 
days, hunting for a whore's crutch.  It's a thankless task,
but someone's got to make a start.  What's that?  Potter's
got to do it and die to save us all in the process?  Hmph... some 
people get all the attention.

Just to confirm: I have communed with the other mods and the HBP 
spoiler policy is henceforth history.  Anyone here who has not read 
the book should now apply RAYOR (read at your own risk) or possibly 
HITWASH (hide in the wardrobe and sing hymns).  

Magically,

Neil






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 14:08:14 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:08:14 -0000
Subject: Graveyard Horcrux?
In-Reply-To: <1122244711.14571BA6@...>
Message-ID: <dc2roe+7554@...>

Double, double
Toil and trouble
Cauldron hiss and 
Cauldron bubble
Eye of newt and wing of fleas
Nothing will clean these dungarees!

Heidi:
 He couldn't have made one from Cedric as Wormtail did that killing.
And  Wormtail was the reason I had a problem with the horcrux 
concept,  unfortunately. Wormtail killed a dozen people in one blow, 
but even if  it split his soul, did he do any horcruxing?

Pippin:
More evidence that Pettigrew is innocent. He's another Morphin,
IMO, no saint, but not a killer, either. His soul is torn with
treachery, and cowardice, not murder.  So useful to have him 
around. By now, I'm sure Voldie has him quite convinced that he did 
murder all  those people and kill Cedric, too. But canon is ambiguous.

Wormtail held the wand, quoth Jo, but who is "Wormtail" ? Peter only,
or Peter and someone else? More than one Prince, more than one Evans,
more than one Crouch, more than one Riddle. The clues accumulate.

Heidi:
 Has Voldemort taught the  trick to any death eaters, and is that 
why they're so dangerous, because they kill other wizards to split 
their own souls? Or has he held the  information for himself?

Pippin:
I doubt very much that Voldemort would teach the trick to his
Death Eaters. No doubt he's promised them that he'll reveal the
secret of immortality once he's found it out, but in the graveyard
he makes it sound as if he doesn't know which of his
experiments saved his life, and as if he might be mortal once
more. Dumbledore confirms that the DE's don't know what he's
talking about when he says he's traveled further than anyone on
the road to immortality. I don't think Voldemort would want any
other immortal wizards competing with him. 

Pippin





From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 14:11:40 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dc2pph+21uc@...>
Message-ID: <20050725141140.44696.qmail@...>

Spoiler cocktail
Spoiler stew
Curried spoiler
Spoiler BBQ
Spoiler sandwich
Grilled spoiler
Spoiler soup
Spoiler kabobs
Spoiler salad
Consomme of spoiler
Spoiler pudding


Carolyn:
> What I just don't get is why anyone thinks Regulus 
> is up to retrieving the locket in the first place, 
> and re-creating/inventing a very complex potion, 
> then leaving everything shipshape and tidy so
> no one notices he's been there.

Jen: 
Maybe because we can't come up with anyone else? 
<snip>
Personally, the only other name I can come up with is
one of the Bones family, and we don't know first names
there. I've also heard Borgin or Burkes. 
<snip>
But maybe you're right that we should be looking for
one who would be capable of first locating the cave,
i.e. knowing enough about TR to find it, then having
the power to work through the magical obstacle course
inside.
<snip>
If that premise is true, then the stealing of the
locket happened when he was Vapormort, like the diary,
which he was also unaware of. In that case it wouldn't
be Regulus. 

Carolyn:
> Thirdly, the person who did do it could only have 
> found the cave if they knew something of young Tom 
> Riddle's past, and as DD has pointed out, very, very

> few people do. 

Jen: 
This is a good point, about finding the cave. It
sounds like it took DD the better part of 4 years to
figure out the Horcrux idea and start locating
objects. That on top of everything he knew about 
TR to begin with, which was more than anyone else.

But if not Regulus, who else? ;) 


SSSusan:
As excited as I was at first to have (alongside so
many others) come up with Regulus as the likely
candidate, I'm starting to squirm a little about this.
 Yes, I'm afraid this one is starting to feel too
easy, as if Jo is having a good chuckle over all the
back-patting that's going on in the fandom.

So, yes, I'm willing to consider other candidates for
RAB.

We know it's not likely to be Burke(s), as his first
name has been identified as Caractacus.  This does,
however, leave Borgin, who so far is still known only
as "Mr."  He would certainly be in an interesting
position re: potentially knowing things about
Voldy's/Tom Riddle's past, given the type of business
he runs and the fact that we KNOW Malfoy has brought
in some of TR's/Voldy's things to the shop.

The question is, why would Mr. Borgin have any
interest in foiling Voldy?

Siriusly Snapey Susan




From jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 14:13:41 2005
From: jmmears at serenadust.yahoo.invalid (serenadust)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:13:41 -0000
Subject: Suspicions about Neil (few spoilers and kinds OT)
In-Reply-To: <dc1u79+fae3@...>
Message-ID: <dc2s2l+avq0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" 
<quigonginger at y...> wrote:
> Neil wrote:
 
> However,
> > despite Talisman's poetic pleas, I made an Unbreakable Vow to my 
> fellow
> > moderators.  I am bound, but soon, my dears, very soon...
> 
 
> Ginger:

 
> Whereas Neil has shown that he is privy to the secrets of the 
> Potterverse, I make the motion that anything Neil says in the 
future 
> be considered a spoiler, and that he be condemned to use spoiler 
> space on all his posts until after the release of Book 7.
> 
> All in favour?


Sounds fair to me.  Does it say anywhere how long the spoiler policy 
is to be in place?  I've looked in the files, but can't find 
anything about an end date.

Jo S., who is so out of touch she didn't even know we *had* 
moderators.  When did that happen?





From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 14:22:16 2005
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:22:16 +0200
Subject: Fawkes - Riddle - Snape
Message-ID: <200507251622.16964.silmariel@...>


Ok, I've seen Fakwes suggested as proof for Snape loyalty (not only now, long 
time ago, in HPfGU), but never a post opposing the idea. I suppose I've lost 
the relevant mails, but given there is new canon, I'll retake the subject. 

Points:

1.- Available information is different from textbooks (FB) than given on-stage 
by DD. 'Domesticated' ones are very rare so information about them might be 
as rare. DD throws everyone out of the room before talking of Fawkes, and 
it's the first thing he addresses. (CoS, chap18)

3.- McGonadall coud've at least say that after all the Phoenix wasn't such a 
good proof, makes me think she doesn't now or she won't tell. (HBP)

4.- LV perpetuates his own weaknesses, which can be found in his past. (HBP) 
LV tends to disregard 'white magic'.

5.- Tom Riddle diary was blissfully ignoring healing properties of Phoenix 
till it was too late. Please note that for a being so loving of himself, so 
inteligent, and having a Phoenix wand core, this strikes as a blind point for 
him. FB was already used as textbook in his days.

6.- There's a simmetry. Harry 'summons' Fawkes in book 2 and 6.

Plus:

You don't have to show a memory, it can be done on-stage. Phoenix come and go 
at will. (FB)

I think Fawkes is passing under LV radar. Red herring, anyone?

Silmariel



From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 15:10:33 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:10:33 -0000
Subject: Suspect List for RAB (Re: His Little Helper)
In-Reply-To: <dc2eur+8goa@...>
Message-ID: <dc2vd9+lg48@...>

Carolyn wisely asked:
> What I just don't get is why anyone thinks Regulus is up to 
> retrieving the locket in the first place, and re-
> creating/inventing a very complex potion, then leaving everything
> shipshape and tidy so no one notices he's been there. Of course 
> the initials are suggestive, but is this more misdirection? 

And suggested:
> The only conclusion is that they are not his initials, but perhaps 
> another member of the Black family. What exactly happened to
> Sirius' and Regulus' father, for instance? He'd be the right age
> to have gone to school with Riddle. 

Then Susan said:
> This does however, leave Borgin, who so far is still known only
> as "Mr."  He would certainly be in an interesting
> position re: potentially knowing things about
> Voldy's/Tom Riddle's past, given the type of business
> he runs and the fact that we KNOW Malfoy has brought
> in some of TR's/Voldy's things to the shop.


Jen: So I'm thinking we need to put together a suspect list here. 

1) Borgin, for reasons stated above.

2) Uncle Alphard Black. We know he made some gold, got wiped off the 
family tree. Liked rebel Sirius enough to leave him everything. Not 
much else to go on. Except he would have been much closer to 
Riddle's age and he died during the middle of the first war. 
Wouldn't explain why Voldemort didn't know his locket was stolen if 
it happened while he was still in body form.

3) Binns. Death could be consistent with posioning from what we know-
-sat in front of the staff room fire, went to sleep and woke up 
dead. Was he tired after a long night in the cave drinking poison? 
No idea when he died. But he does have an extensive knowledge of 
history, including a very precise account of the COS. Downside is no 
evidence whatsoever he would be capable of the type of magic 
required to get the locket.

4) Bertie Bott. Robert Bott, perhaps? ;)
 
5) Ali Bashir. Longshot. Smuggler of stolen goods. Hey, his initials 
worked, 'kay?

Jen, wondering if we'll go through all this theorizing only to find 
out it's a character we never met. 










From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 15:36:17 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:36:17 -0000
Subject: Suspect List for RAB (Re: His Little Helper)
In-Reply-To: <dc2vd9+lg48@...>
Message-ID: <dc30th+n44a@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:

> Jen: So I'm thinking we need to put together a suspect list here. 
> 
> 1) Borgin, for reasons stated above.
> 
> 2) Uncle Alphard Black. We know he made some gold, got wiped off 
the 
> family tree. Liked rebel Sirius enough to leave him everything. Not 
> much else to go on. Except he would have been much closer to 
> Riddle's age and he died during the middle of the first war. 
> Wouldn't explain why Voldemort didn't know his locket was stolen if 
> it happened while he was still in body form.
> 
> 3) Binns. Death could be consistent with posioning from what we 
know-
> -sat in front of the staff room fire, went to sleep and woke up 
> dead. Was he tired after a long night in the cave drinking poison? 
> No idea when he died. But he does have an extensive knowledge of 
> history, including a very precise account of the COS. Downside is 
no evidence whatsoever he would be capable of the type of magic 
> required to get the locket.
> 
> 4) Bertie Bott. Robert Bott, perhaps? ;)
>  
> 5) Ali Bashir. Longshot. Smuggler of stolen goods. Hey, his 
initials worked, 'kay?
> 
> Jen, wondering if we'll go through all this theorizing only to find 
> out it's a character we never met.

Carolyn:
Great minds etc! I just drew up the very same list and was going to 
post it. The other person I found was one of the children that Tom 
took to that cave, Amy Benson. It's cheating as she would have to 
have another first name, and recovered from her experiences, and turn 
out to be a powerful witch... 

All fairly unlikely, but she was on the spot, in the library with the 
candlestick as it were [do you have Cluedo in the US??]. Or maybe it 
was her long-lost warlock brother, Roger Albert Benson, avenging his 
sister who whispered what happened to her on her deathbed, only hours 
after he finally discovers her, having searched London orphanages for 
years now that he is rich and can look after them all..

Oh, sorry, stepped through the Dickens prose portal by mistake. I'll 
go and lie down.

Carolyn





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 15:40:54 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:40:54 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <20050725141140.44696.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dc3166+c768@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Susan Albrecht 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:

> 
> SSSusan:
> As excited as I was at first to have (alongside so
> many others) come up with Regulus as the likely
> candidate, I'm starting to squirm a little about this.
>  Yes, I'm afraid this one is starting to feel too
> easy, as if Jo is having a good chuckle over all the
> back-patting that's going on in the fandom.
> 
> So, yes, I'm willing to consider other candidates for
> RAB.
> 
> We know it's not likely to be Burke(s), as his first
> name has been identified as Caractacus.  This does,
> however, leave Borgin, who so far is still known only
> as "Mr."  He would certainly be in an interesting
> position re: potentially knowing things about
> Voldy's/Tom Riddle's past, given the type of business
> he runs and the fact that we KNOW Malfoy has brought
> in some of TR's/Voldy's things to the shop.
> 
> The question is, why would Mr. Borgin have any
> interest in foiling Voldy?
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan


Voldy's protection racket was starting to get too pricey? Voldy had 
to get his cash from somewhere, a little sideline in extortion would 
help. Possibly he's running some kind of illegal potion scam as 
well, Madam Hooch has to do something when she's not giving first 
years their single flying lesson.

RAB has to be someone Harry can identify and trace, that's really 
why Reg is so appealing. Any Black would do for that I guess. 

I'm intrigued as to why, in the interview, JKR is so specific about 
Voldy *not* being the one to kill Reg. Does this mean that who did 
kill him (Snape?) or what (potion?) is significant?

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.







From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 15:51:30 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Suspect List for RAB (Re: His Little Helper)
In-Reply-To: <dc30th+n44a@...>
Message-ID: <20050725155130.73193.qmail@...>

Carolyn:
The other person I found was one of the children that
Tom took to that cave, Amy Benson. It's cheating as
she would have to have another first name, and
recovered from her experiences, and turn 
out to be a powerful witch... 


SSSusan:
Now, THIS is an exciting catch, Carolyn!  I think this
would be really, really cool if it turned out to be
right.  

Of course, the odds that little Amy would've turned
out to be a witch...??







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 15:53:10 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:53:10 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dc13di+bdoq@...>
Message-ID: <dc31t6+724u@...>

To the victor belong the spoils -- 

> 
> Potioncat:
> OK, one more time. Speak slowly and a little louder. I don't quite 
> get this.
> 
> If DD died, what is the issue on whether it was Snape's AK or not. 
> And how does that affect Snape? Are you saying that Snape avoided 
> killing him by having him float to the ground as he died, or are
you 
> saying that Snape thinks he killed him...? I just can't understand 
> how death by a horrible fall would be better than death by AK.
> 
> Secondly, do you think DD is really dead or just merely dead? I 
> recall one Arthur/Merlin story (was it Stewart's?) in which Merlin 
> was placed in the crystal cave, but he wasn't dead. He was able to 
> live comfortably, and still had contact with Arthur. But I think
JKR 
> has stated that DD is dead. 
> 
> I think, after only one read, that Snape killed DD as agreed upon
in 
> a last ditch effort to some greater good. 


Pippin:

Here's an analogy.

You and I are putting on a play. 
I, as the villain, fire at you with a pistol, 
using blanks. This triggers  a complicated bit of pyrotechnics which 
tosses you backward off a battlement. You expect to land, backstage,
on a nice comfy cushion. Most unfortunately, you took poison before 
the performance, and on the way down you black out. Despite the 
cushion, you muff your landing and break your neck. Am I the
murderer? 

Only if I gave you  the poison, which, as it happens, I didn't. 

Here, as of one re-reading, is what I think happened:

1) Dumbledore doesn't seek to kill Voldemort at the Ministry

2) Voldemort fears his secret has been rumbled

3) Voldemort decides that Dumbledore must die

4) Draco shares his interesting observation about the cabinet

5) Draco is marked, ordered to repair the cabinet and to kill
Dumbledore on pain of his entire family being murdered. 

This (The Plan) is shared with only Bella, Draco's
occlumency teacher, from whom it could hardly be hidden. Snape is
told that there is a plan to eliminate Dumbledore, but not what it
entails, since Voldemort trusts Snape about as far as I could kick a
hippogriff.

Snape suspects that the plan is to force him to kill Dumbledore,
since no other DE's can enter the school.

6) Snape reports the existence of a plan to Dumbledore.

7) Draco brags enough to convince Narcissa that he's up to something
on the Dark Lord's orders. 

(If Narcissa knew about the plan, then Draco wouldn't have had to
ditchher to go to Borgin and Burkes, and wouldn't have had to forbid 
Borgin to mention his visit to her)

8) Narcissa begs Snape for help with Draco. Snape puts two and two
together

9) Snape says he has to think about it and reports to Dumbledore

10) Dumbledore cooks up a plot. Snape will make the UV to Narcissa
to watch over Draco and protect him. That way, he will be able to 
spy on Draco, and Voldemort will not be able to order him to stop
without losing his spy. 

11) Snape tells Narcissa what she must do, and she brings Bella to
him. 

She pretends to Bella that of course, she, as Draco's mother, has
been informed of the plan. Bella sees through this, but is quite
amused.
Anyway,  she has some questions she's been itching to ask Snape and 
this is the perfect opportunity. 

 Narcissa is putting on an act the whole time she's at Snape's; he's
already agreed to help her. Hence the scenery chewing. The only
other person who has put on such a display of waterworks is Ginny,
when she was trying to convince her parents she had no idea the diary
was dangerous. We know that's not true, because she tried to destroy
it. Narcissa is acting.

The whole scene is cooked up in advance, with one little ad lib.
Narcissa bonds Snape to carry out the deed Draco has been ordered 
to perform. Snape, who can't refuse without blowing his cover,
must comply.

12) Snape reports  to Dumbledore who is completely unworried. In
the first place, not even Voldemort would expect Snape to try to kill 
Dumbledore without backup, and no DE's can get into the castle. In the
second place, Narcissa is right about Draco, he's no murderer, and
he's not going to be able to try to kill Dumbledore, so all Snape has
to do is try and the vow will be fulfilled. Not to worry, he will also
fail. Dumbledore has complete trust that Snape is not a killer
anymore. 

13)  Snape has a shouting match with Dumbledore in which he
tells Dumbledore he takes too much for granted, but in the end he
agrees to follow orders, much as Harry did. Snape is Dumbledore's
man through and through. But he's worried. Draco has made a
couple of efforts, not lethal, but they could have been.

14) Draco repairs the cabinet and signals Rosmerta to inform him the
next time Dumbledore leaves the castle

15) Dumbledore and Harry go horcrux hunting

16) Draco admits the DE's to the castle -- this is where I suspect
ESE!Lupin is complicit. 

17) Dumbledore and Harry return

18) Flitwick notifies Snape of the raid

19) Snape stuns the messenger as planned,
(it was supposed to be Harry, remember?) 

20) Snape arrives on the battlement

21) Dumbledore begs him to trust him and carry out the plan

22) Snape performs the AK which fails but blasts Dumbledore off the 
battlements

23) Dumbledore, overcome by the poison, fails to arrest his fall
and dies. Snape can't interfere since he no longer has eye contact. 

24) Snape escapes, with Draco in tow

There's no way Snape could have done anything
to  save Dumbledore once he arrived on the battlements, because as 
soon as he refused to try to kill him, he'd have died himself.

The phoenix lament has me pretty much convinced that Dumbledore
died. But if that turns out to have been faked, then maybe...

The foreword to the school books makes me wonder. Would Herself have
had Dumbledore write it, apparently in 2001, if she knew she'd have
offed him in 1998?


Pippin





From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 16:20:40 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:20:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Suspect List for RAB (Re: His Little Helper)
Message-ID: <20050725162041.27002.fh1045.wm@...>

Jen proposed, for R.A.B.:

<< 1) Borgin, for reasons stated above.
2) Uncle Alphard Black. We know he made some gold, got
3) Binns. Death could be consistent with posioning >>

Carolyn suggested one of Amy Benson's relatives (or Amy
with a dropped first name).

***

Me:

There are a few other surnames worth consideration, to
cover the 'B'. Bones, for example.

Alternatively, I wonder if there was a reason Katie
Bell ended up with the job of carrying that cursed opal
necklace?  Perhaps R.A.B. was a relative of hers and
she was seen as dispensable because of past history
with the Bell family.

Okay, there my theory dries up, as I can't remember a
darned thing about Katie Bell's family.

Neil
   

----------------------------------------
Scanned by Emailfiltering.co.uk



From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 17:07:11 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:07:11 +1000
Subject: cross-pollinating clues (a little OT)
Message-ID: <20050725170711.GE13349@...>

Something odd is going on at another fan list I belong to, blakes7 (remember
that old sci-fi series?), where, one after the other, members are unmasking
themselves as Potterverse fans and making connections between the WW and the
series anti-heros. Avon naturally corresponds to Shape, and if Tarrant isn't a
smarmy Slytherin, I don't know who is. Blakes7 denizens are no slouches at
speed chess fanfic either, and a rapid cross-pollination between wizards and
the Federation ensues, much to everyone's amusement.

But in the process, one member let slip a LiveJournal URL where they discuss
Book 6 and made at least one point I don't recall seeing here. In

http://www.livejournal.com/users/vilakins/128236.html

Vilakins says this in Snape's defence:

And when Malfoy finally confronts Dumbledore and can't do it, Dumbledore lets
him (and us) know that he knew about it.

	"I appreciate the difficulty of your position," said Dumbledore. "Why else
	do you think I have not confronted you before now? Because I knew that you
	would have been murdered if Lord Voldemort realised that I suspected you."

The only way he'd know is if Snape told him; Harry had nothing but formless
suspicions.

Does this hold up? It hadn't occurred to me that this would count in Snape's
favour; I merely assumed he might have told DD to protect Draco.

It's been fascinating; the blakes7 list is in what I would call its gentle
dementia stage, and probably won't last much longer than the final release of
all four series on DVD (and we're up to no. 3 now), but sudden bursts of
creativity like this are still not uncommon - with characters as endearingly
cynical as Avon and Vila, as cheesily villainous as Servalan, and now with
series three, as mindlessly gung-ho as Dayna and Tarrant, there are endless
fun combinations to be had. I wonder if HP is doomed to become a TV series....

ewe2, enjoying the idea of a Levicorpus spell on Avon, but wondering if he
could survive the resulting phaser burns.

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From sdutchen at sev7snape.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 17:09:48 2005
From: sdutchen at sev7snape.yahoo.invalid (Stephanie)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:09:48 -0000
Subject: Yet another intro post
Message-ID: <dc36cs+cmug@...>

One small spoiler is in this post,
So those who've not finished should run.
You'll agree this warning's excessive, I'm sure,
But I wanted to join in the fun.

***

Hello, everyone, and thanks for having me!  After replying to 
Catherine's invite yesterday I've been trying to catch up on all the 
HBP chat (and, I must admit, enjoying the spoiler space almost as 
much as the posts themselves), which has been a terrific alternative 
to packing for Accio.  I'm soaking it all up before posting to avoid 
any maddening HPfGU-esque repetition.  Unfortunately I'm only halfway 
through and my flight is tomorrow...  But here is my intro, and when 
I get back in a couple of weeks I'm looking forward to joining in the 
conversation.

***Name:
Stephanie Dutchen

***Nicknames/IDs:
Moony, Hermione (Russian co-worker ? think Krum pronunciation), 
sev7snape (online). No LJ.

***Age:
23

***Family:
Live with my father (hopefully not for much longer), a technology 
consultant and teacher in a large hospital system; mother about 45 
minutes away, who teaches high school computer science and sings in a 
folk/blues/rock band; my sister is entering her last year at college 
and looking into entertainment law; have some relatives we 
call `cousins' for simplicity in Hull and London.  Currently single, 
no children. :)

***Home
Huntington, Long Island, NY, born and raised.  Claim to fame: 
birthplace of Walt Whitman.  Went to Walt Whitman High School, shop 
at the Walt Whitman Mall, drive down Walt Whitman Road ... you get 
the idea.

***Birthday, Place of Birth:
July 26, 1982 in Manhasset.  (We have some pretty fun town names 
around here, care of the sometime native populations: Ronkonkoma, 
Hauppague (`hop pog'), Mineola, Amagansett, etc.)

***Education/Job/Role in Life etc:
B.A. in English and B.S. in Journalism from Boston University, which 
are supposedly being put to use in my official capacity as a web 
developer/medical copywriter for a small company that creates 
websites for doctors.  Looking to go back to school but haven't 
settled on a subject from among medical writing, English, multimedia 
journalism and pop culture studies.  I've thought of myself as a 
writer since as far as I can remember and probably always will.  I 
don't know if that means fiction or non-fiction but it definitely 
doesn't involve reporting (blecch).  No Ritas here.

***Other things we might want to know about you:
Introvert, perfectionist, terrified atheist, omnivore, fantasizer.  
Hopeless with clothing and small talk.  I identify with fanon-Remus 
for his socially awkward maturity (among other things) and am a 
perennial dork who is needled by the fact that it's now cool to be a 
social outcast.  Utterly lack the ability to judge my own work or to 
know when to stop writing, as you'll notice in this post and in my 
Accio paper if any of you come across it.

***First contact with Harry Potter:
One of my roommates at school bought PS for me and actually sat me 
down one night and read the first chapter out loud when she saw that 
I hadn't touched it yet.  I liked it but it didn't take.  I saw the 
first movie and thought it was cute and pretty but wasn't inspired to 
read the books.  It wasn't until June of 2003 that I stumbled across 
some HP fan fiction (through a Buffy crossover) and got hooked on the 
characters ? mostly the adults.  Right after that I read the first 
five books in a row from June-July and haven't been the same since.

***Favourite Potter things:

Books - I would say PoA is my favorite, except because I came into 
the fandom through fan fiction, much of the end was spoiled for me.  
I tell people that if they don't like the series after PoA they're 
allowed to stop reading.  I'm neutral on GoF, liked OotP the second 
time, and think HBP is tied for the best book so far.

Characters ? Snape, who I thoroughly believe is good (though flawed), 
followed by Lupin, who I am now dreading to think may be not-so-good 
after reading some of Pippin's arguments!  I like Hermione but I 
think she is approaching a crisis that will involve her considerable 
book-smarts ? she's too confident, inflexible and controlling for 
comfort, and it's going to get her and probably her friends into a 
lot of trouble.  Fred and George are always good for a (slightly 
disturbing) laugh.  Fan fiction has helped me tolerate Sirius Black, 
though I prefer him in the Marauders days.  I respect Arthur Weasley 
more with each book.  I would not stop anyone caught strangling Dobby.

Ships ? I tend to be attracted to relationships that aren't explicit 
in the books, particularly any involving Snape or Lupin.  So at first 
I read Snape/Hermione fics (mostly when she was older), then 
Remus/Hermione, then Sirius/Remus, with various others in the mix as 
well.  Am very much looking forward to all the Remus/Tonks that is 
surely heading our way.

Alternate casting choices for the films ? Jeremy Irons for Voldemort 
or Snape.  Or David Bowie for Voldemort ? though he's not tall 
enough.  Not happy with David Thewlis (who is, really?) but can't 
find a satisfactory substitute either, except maybe the actor who 
played Quirrell...  `Shine'-era Noah Taylor would have made a fine 
young Snape...  Mick Jagger has/had the right attitude for teenaged 
Sirius Black.

Collectibles ? HP candy wrappers, a Slytherin felt flag, a couple of 
Hot Topic t-shirts and socks, and four Hogwarts House candles my 
friend found somewhere a few years ago.  I also made some Shrinky-
Dink pins from Potter Puppet Pals and other character doodles I found 
online.

***Extent of Potter obsession:
Fluctuates, with a baseline of Mild.  Thanks to Accio and HBP it's 
been a fairly steady Crippling for several months.  I chat with 
Potterhead friends about the books and movies, I read fan fiction 
every so often, and just about everything in `real life' reminds me 
of a person or moment from the series.  I admit I haven't read any of 
the books more than twice straight through, though I choose to blame 
this on being a relatively new fan.  As far as online involvement, I 
don't have the time or patience to keep up with all the Live Journal 
scurrying, HPFGU or MuggleNet etc. posts, so I tend to check on 
things periodically.

***Other interests/activities:
Picked up Irish step dancing about a year ago (it's becoming 
something of a fad here) in a move that surprised even me as I'm not 
at all a dancer.  Other semi-athletic activitiy includes racquet 
sports ? tennis and badminton mostly.  Most of the time I'm reading 
or doing something else that involves the computer.  I play the piano 
a little ? took lessons for a few years, now just attempt pieces that 
interest me (most recently short pieces from `The Piano' 
and `Amelie').  Am a sucker for trivia, especially stuff relating to 
health conditions and diseases.  Other interests are vampires, the 
Byronic hero, word games, fan fiction (reading and studying more than 
writing), sci fi and traveling.

***Current/recent reading:
Aside from HBP... Mind Wide Open by Steven Johnson, In the Absence of 
Men by Philippe Besson, The Liar by Stephen Fry, Arcadia by Tom 
Stoppard.  Have been working through the Chronicles of Thomas 
Covenant the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson for about a year now, 
along with Tennyson's collected poems.

***Current/recent listening: 
I'm a folk rock groupie, and lately it's been all about Richard 
Shindell; Alexi Murdoch and Beth Orton are supposed to have new 
albums coming out but appear to be MIA.  Last month I found a duet 
called `Elia Rising' by Sort Sol and Sissel that I couldn't stop 
listening to for a couple of weeks.

***Current/recent viewing:
House, M.D. and Boston Legal.  I'm pretty picky about TV because I 
like to watch every episode of a series and don't like sitcoms or 
reality shows.  Usually if I want to watch something I'll go for 
reruns of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Star Trek (esp. DS9), or my two 
favorite short-lived and obscure series, Brimstone and Roar.

Films-wise, on the night of HBP we went to see Charlie and the 
Chocolate Factory, which was a delight for the eyes and especially 
for pedophobic sadists (The New Yorker's term, alas, not mine).  Have 
also recently watched PoA, Leon: The Professional (my favorite 
movie), Dead Poets Society, The Prophecy, Whale Rider and Farewell My 
Concubine.  I tend to rent/borrow videos more than go to the movies, 
so `recent' is a relative term here.


We now return to our regularly scheduled workday ... Thanks again, 
Catherine, for the invite!

-Stephanie





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 18:23:03 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:23:03 -0000
Subject: Way off topic (was Re: cross-pollinating clues (a little OT))
In-Reply-To: <20050725170711.GE13349@...>
Message-ID: <dc3am7+p55c@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewe2 at 4...> wrote:
> Something odd is going on at another fan list I belong to, blakes7 
(remember
> that old sci-fi series?), where, one after the other, members are 
unmasking
> themselves as Potterverse fans and making connections between the 
WW and the
> series anti-heros. Avon naturally corresponds to Shape, and if 
Tarrant isn't a
> smarmy Slytherin, I don't know who is. Blakes7 denizens are no 
slouches at
> speed chess fanfic either, and a rapid cross-pollination between 
wizards and
> the Federation ensues, much to everyone's amusement.
> 
> But in the process, one member let slip a LiveJournal URL where 
they discuss
> Book 6 and made at least one point I don't recall seeing here. In
> 
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/vilakins/128236.html
> 
> Vilakins says this in Snape's defence:
> 
> And when Malfoy finally confronts Dumbledore and can't do it, 
Dumbledore lets
> him (and us) know that he knew about it.
> 
> 	"I appreciate the difficulty of your position," said 
Dumbledore. "Why else
> 	do you think I have not confronted you before now? Because I 
knew that you
> 	would have been murdered if Lord Voldemort realised that I 
suspected you."
> 
> The only way he'd know is if Snape told him; Harry had nothing but 
formless
> suspicions.
> 
> Does this hold up? It hadn't occurred to me that this would count 
in Snape's
> favour; I merely assumed he might have told DD to protect Draco.
> 
> It's been fascinating; the blakes7 list is in what I would call 
its gentle
> dementia stage, and probably won't last much longer than the final 
release of
> all four series on DVD (and we're up to no. 3 now), but sudden 
bursts of
> creativity like this are still not uncommon - with characters as 
endearingly
> cynical as Avon and Vila, as cheesily villainous as Servalan, and 
now with
> series three, as mindlessly gung-ho as Dayna and Tarrant, there 
are endless
> fun combinations to be had. I wonder if HP is doomed to become a 
TV series....
> 
> ewe2, enjoying the idea of a Levicorpus spell on Avon, but 
wondering if he
> could survive the resulting phaser burns.
> 
> -- 
> "I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage


No, would never have predicted B4 & 1/2 w/o Blake as a Potter cross 
over!

I was a huge fan of Avon in my yoof, even went to see him perform in 
a play ..... MacBeth!!! It was so bad I had to leave the performance 
before the first interval...haven't seen an episode of B7 since....

Have noticed that Rodney in SG Atlantis *is* Vila.

Hum, Avon as a HP fan (secret of course), Vila would like Madame 
Whiplash.....

Thanks for sharing ;)

Jo





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 18:38:15 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:38:15 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dc31t6+724u@...>
Message-ID: <dc3bin+p5lh@...>


> Pippin wrote:
> 20) Snape arrives on the battlement
> 
> 21) Dumbledore begs him to trust him and carry out the plan
> 
> 22) Snape performs the AK which fails but blasts Dumbledore off the 
> battlements
> 
> 23) Dumbledore, overcome by the poison, fails to arrest his fall
> and dies. Snape can't interfere since he no longer has eye contact. 
> 
> 24) Snape escapes, with Draco in tow
> 
> There's no way Snape could have done anything
> to  save Dumbledore once he arrived on the battlements, because as 
> soon as he refused to try to kill him, he'd have died himself.

Potioncat:
So, by your theory, DD was planning to make it look like Snape had 
killed him. But something went wrong and DD died by accident, so to 
speak. Do you think Snape knew DD had a plan to save himself? Or am I 
just completely thick? So at what point would Snape really understand 
that the plan hadn't turned out? Or am I just incredibly thick?

Never mind that last question.
Kathy W.





From lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 18:39:21 2005
From: lupinesque at lupinesque.yahoo.invalid (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:39:21 -0000
Subject: Evidence of the Schoolbooks (was: The AK)
In-Reply-To: <dc31t6+724u@...>
Message-ID: <dc3bkp+5hco@...>

Amy limps in
Having repeatedly slammed her foot
In the dryer door
For failing to put spoiler space
At the beginning of this post

She begs your forgiveness
Especially if you are on e-mail
And haven't read HBP yet

Though what you're doing on this list
If you haven't read HBP
She really doesn't know.

Do you really imagine we're talking about anything else?

Pippin wrote:

> The foreword to the school books makes me wonder. Would Herself have
> had Dumbledore write it, apparently in 2001, if she knew she'd have
> offed him in 1998?

I seem to recall we wondered about this on HPfGU when the schoolbooks
came out. But the evidence of the schoolbooks doesn't seem to mean
much. The borrower slip in Quidditch through the Ages must date from
no later than Goblet of Fire (1994-95), since Cedric signed it out on
July 3, and July 1994 was the last July of his life. The last
signout in the book is in March--surely the following March, March
1995, since it is one of the most popular books in the library (see
Foreword) and the dates do seem chosen to indicate that it is out
constantly. By the same token, it would have filled up many borrower
slips between 1995 and 2001.

In short, we don't know when in the Potter timeline the schoolbooks
were released. JKR once again won't give up a good joke in favor of
mere date accuracy.

She could have both, if only she would hire a couple of L.O.O.N.s to
look over her work before it goes to press. Jo, it's your last
chance. Hire us now, before you publish Book 7! We don't even want
paying! Just a clean teatowel and the opportunity to lick your boots!

Amy Z C





From triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 18:43:23 2005
From: triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid (triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:43:23 EDT
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
Message-ID: <bd.5c4232fc.30168ccb@...>

Pip!Squeak wrote about AK's in canon:

The Riddles: 'Lying there with  their eyes wide open.'

Frank Bryce: 'There was a flash of green light, a  rushing sound, and 
Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the  floor' [GoF, 
Ch.1]

The Spider: 'rolled over onto its back, unmarked,  but unmistakably 
dead.' [GoF Ch. 14]

Cedric: 'he heard something  heavy fall to the ground beside 
him...Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the  ground beside him.'[GoF, 
Ch. 32]

Sirius (if that *was* an AK): 'his  body curved in a graceful arc as 
he sank backwards through the ragged  veil...' [OOP, Ch.35]

Fawkes: 'swallowed the jet of green light whole: he  burst into flame 
and fell to the floor...' [OOP, Ch. 36]. Bursting into  flame is a 
natural characteristic of phoenixes, of course {g}


Trina:
 
I have the mental picture of all the dead lying on their backs.   Cedric, we 
know is.  So is the spider.  All we know of the  Riddles is that they are 
"lying there with their eyes wide open" but for  argument's sake they are supine.  
Frank Bryce merely crumples--we have no  idea how exactly he falls, although 
by the description I imagine he falls  forward, seeing as how he's got a limp 
and a walking stick.  Sirius arches  backwards through the veil.  

Pip!Squeak: 
Nobody *who dies* is blasted off their feet by the AK. They 
drop/fall  where they're standing/flying.
 
Trina:
Aren't they?  If the AK kills you instantly and you simply fall down  dead 
(crumpling as Frank Bryce was described) wouldn't you fall  forward, not 
backward? If the knees buckle, that is.   And if you are dead the second it hits you, 
how could the spider  possibly roll over?  It's already dead.  Pretty neat  
trick to move while dead.  I think the force of the AK is what moves the  body. 
 The AK is a powerful curse and needs some power behind it.  I  also think 
the strength of the AK has to be relative to the strength of  victim.  The 
Riddles and Bryce--they're Muggles and therefore helpless,  doesn't take much to 
kill them.  Same with the spider.  Cedric, while  still fairly young and 
inexperienced, gets flung backwards.  Since Harry  "stared into Cedric's face", he's 
definitely on his back.  Sirius also gets  knocked backwards.  And as for 
Dumbledore..well, he is one of the greatest  wizards of the age, incredibly 
powerful, and a formidable opponent (at least  when not weakened by Horcrux juice).  
I say the AK that took him out would  have to have one of amazing strength 
and power.  Why wouldn't blast him  into the air and over the wall of the tower? 
 And he, like Cedric, lies  spread-eagled on the ground.
 
Submitted for your approval.  Make of it what you will.
 
Trina
 
After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great  adventure.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 18:53:57 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:53:57 -0000
Subject: cross-pollinating clues (a little OT)
In-Reply-To: <20050725170711.GE13349@...>
Message-ID: <dc3cg5+h8ja@...>

Ewe2 wrote: 
> And when Malfoy finally confronts Dumbledore and can't do it, 
Dumbledore lets
> him (and us) know that he knew about it.
> 
> 	"I appreciate the difficulty of your position," said 
Dumbledore. "Why else
> 	do you think I have not confronted you before now? Because I 
knew that you
> 	would have been murdered if Lord Voldemort realised that I 
suspected you."

Potioncat:
Good catch! And how about this one too:
chapter 4, DD and Harry on on their way to Slughorn's and DD told 
Harry to keep his wand at the ready.
>>"...However, I do not think you need worry about being attacked 
tonight."
"Why not, sir."
"You are with me," DD said simply.<<

At first read I thought it was DD's self confidence, but now I think 
it's that DD knows that Draco has been assigned the job.

Ewe 2:
> ewe2, enjoying the idea of a Levicorpus spell on Avon, but 
wondering if he
> could survive the resulting phaser burns.

Potioncat:
I know what it does, but Levicorpus still sounds like a new type of 
blue jean sizing. (Levipetite, Leviregular, Levicorpus)








From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 19:10:00 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:10:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: cross-pollinating clues (a little OT)
In-Reply-To: <dc3cg5+h8ja@...>
Message-ID: <20050725191001.22444.qmail@...>



--- potioncat <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> Ewe2 wrote: 
> > And when Malfoy finally confronts Dumbledore and can't do it, 
> Dumbledore lets
> > him (and us) know that he knew about it.
> > 
> > 	"I appreciate the difficulty of your position," said 
> Dumbledore. "Why else
> > 	do you think I have not confronted you before now? Because I 
> knew that you
> > 	would have been murdered if Lord Voldemort realised that I 
> suspected you."
> 
> Potioncat:
> Good catch! And how about this one too:
> chapter 4, DD and Harry on on their way to Slughorn's and DD told 
> Harry to keep his wand at the ready.
> >>"...However, I do not think you need worry about being attacked 
> tonight."
> "Why not, sir."
> "You are with me," DD said simply.<<


I thought that was there just to add resonance to the line towards the end of the book:  "I am not
worried, Harry, I am with you." and was nothing to do with Draco.

Catherine, still choking up

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 19:59:34 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:59:34 -0000
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
In-Reply-To: <bd.5c4232fc.30168ccb@...>
Message-ID: <dc3gb6+4gag@...>

Harry hasted hurriedly to the horcrux
Harry hasted hurriedly to the horcrux
Harry hasted hurriedly...

What? Really?

Yay! No more spoiler spaces!

> Trina:
>  
> I have the mental picture of all the dead lying on their backs.   
> Cedric, we know is.  So is the spider.  All we know of the  
> Riddles is that they are "lying there with their eyes wide open"  
> but for  argument's sake they are supine. Frank Bryce merely 
> crumples--we have no  idea how exactly he falls, although 
> by the description I imagine he falls  forward, seeing as how he's 
got a limp 
> and a walking stick.  Sirius arches  backwards through the veil.  
> 
> Pip!Squeak: 
> Nobody *who dies* is blasted off their feet by the AK. They 
> drop/fall  where they're standing/flying.
>  
> Trina:
> Aren't they?  If the AK kills you instantly and you simply fall 
> down  dead (crumpling as Frank Bryce was described) wouldn't you 
> fall  forward, not backward? If the knees buckle, that is.   

Pip!Squeak replies:

Trina, have you ever seen someone faint? Because I have, twice, and 
I assure you - they fall backwards.

To be precise - they go down straight, like a tree being felled, hit 
the ground with an almighty 'thump' and lie on their backs facing 
upwards. 

Generally, the knees only buckle if a) you lose consciousness 
gradually and have time to semi-control the fall or b) you're an 
actor anxious to avoid concussion. Most 'faints' that you see in 
drama show buckling knees - that's because buckling at the knees 
allows you some control over the fall. 

So if you were killed and lost consciousness whilst standing, you 
wouldn't be able to control the fall. You'd fall backwards, as 
described in, say, Cedric's case. And Sirius's body is described 
as 'curving in a graceful arc', which sounds more like the tree-
felling act to me.  

Another way of describing the real faints I've seen would be to say 
that they went down as if they were still standing at attention.

Trina:
>And if you are dead the second it hits you, 
> how could the spider  possibly roll over?  It's already dead.   
> Pretty neat trick to move while dead.  

Pip!Squeak
Anyone know how spider's legs work? That's a serious question...

Because how the spider's legs work probably explain why it rolls 
onto its back when it dies.

Trina:
> I think the force of the AK is what moves the  body. ... And as 
> for Dumbledore..well, he is one of the greatest  wizards of the 
> age, incredibly powerful, and a formidable opponent (at least  
> when not weakened by Horcrux juice).  I say the AK that took him 
> out would  have to have one of amazing strength and power.  Why   
> wouldn't blast him  into the air and over the wall of the tower? 

Pip!Squeak:
Mainly because that theory doesn't agree with the evidence of OOP 
Ch. 36. Despite the Killing Curses being directed at Albus 
Dumbledore, despite their being launched by Lord Voldemort, neither 
the first statue, nor the desk, nor the centaur statue are described 
as being 'blasted into the air'. 

So Lord Voldemort can't make someone/something fly into the air with 
an AK. *Is* Snape a more powerful wizard than Lord Voldemort?

I'd argue not. 

Trina:
>  And he, like Cedric, lies  spread-eagled on the ground.
>

Yeah, well, unlike Cedric Dumbledore fell from a height. Depending 
on whether he turned as he fell, he could have landed on his back, 
front, head, feet...

And he probably bounced, too. Bleah. Glad Harry (and us!) didn't see 
it...  

Pip!Squeak

"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 20:17:54 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:17:54 -0000
Subject: The AK (was: My HBP Review)
In-Reply-To: <dc3bin+p5lh@...>
Message-ID: <dc3hdi+1ift@...>

> Potioncat:
So, by your theory, DD was planning to make it look like Snape had 
killed him. But something went wrong and DD died by accident, so to 
speak. Do you think Snape knew DD had a plan to save himself? Or am
I  just completely thick? So at what point would Snape really
understand  that the plan hadn't turned out?

Pippin:
Probably as soon as he heard Harry yell "Petrificus Totalus!" behind
him as the last Death Eater tried to leave the top of the tower.

Snape would have known Harry was there all along, on account of the
two brooms, and  Snape would realize that Dumbledore  must 
have immobilized Harry and hidden him. 

Dumbledore would not  have lifted the spell while there were still
Death Eaters in the castle, so if Harry was moving, then
Dumbledore must have died.

I suspect Dumbledore had something like a hollow tooth filled
with draught of living death (there were a lot of missing teeth in
HBP) and his original plan was to swallow the potion when Snape tried
to kill him. 

It was the Order's general policy to fake deaths, as Dumbledore
explains,so Snape would know that, at least. I don't think Dumbledore 
would have told him exactly how he intended to do it. Need to know,
and all. 

Pippin





From severelysigune at severelysigune.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 21:12:40 2005
From: severelysigune at severelysigune.yahoo.invalid (severelysigune)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:12:40 -0000
Subject: Patronuses and Proof
Message-ID: <dc3kk8+i5hs@...>

Well,

As 

Far

As 

"Proof"

Is 

Concerned -

This

Will

Serve 

As

Proof

That I am particularly uncreative when it comes to filling up spoiler 
space. My humble apologies.

______________________________________

Having just digested HBP (a bit slower than most, due to travel and 
thus temporary unaccessibility of the volume in question), the JKR 
interview, and having hastily caught up with TOC, I return from a 
long bout of lurkdom to propose what is probably (since it comes from 
me) a very obvious idea - namely:

Could it be that the shape of Snape's Patronus will provide a key to 
his allegiances in Book 7? If I am not mistaken, JKR has politely 
declined to reveal the shape of Snape's Patronus because 'it would 
give too much away'. Might not this shape rather than bottled 
memories be proof of where Snape's loyalties really lie? If the 
killing of Dumbledore was forced on him against his own will, and his 
look of loathing was not directed at Dumbledore but at his own deed, 
then in all probability the death has affected him deeply - deep 
enough to change the shape of his Patronus into, say, a phoenix... It 
could be in preparation of this kind of revelation that we have been 
shown Tonks' Patronus change on the basis of deep emotion.

Total rubbish, or not?


Yours severely,
Sigune






From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 22:02:18 2005
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:02:18 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re:Moderators (Was: Suspicions about Neil )
In-Reply-To: <dc2s2l+avq0@...>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F1905A253B76DE035DD468CD0CA0@...>


>Jo S., who is so out of touch she didn't even know we *had*
>moderators.  When did that happen?


We've always been here.  We're just very, very quiet and laid back.

Parker (one of those very quiet, very laid back moderators)





From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 22:06:09 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:06:09 -0000
Subject: False Identity!RAB & Amy Benson (Suspect List for RAB)
In-Reply-To: <dc30th+n44a@...>
Message-ID: <dc3noh+9njr@...>

Carolyn:
> Great minds etc! I just drew up the very same list and was going 
to 
> post it. The other person I found was one of the children that Tom 
> took to that cave, Amy Benson. It's cheating as she would have to 
> have another first name, and recovered from her experiences, and 
turn 
> out to be a powerful witch... 
> All fairly unlikely, but she was on the spot, in the library with
> the candlestick as it were [do you have Cluedo in the US??]. 

Jen: The more I think about it, the more R. Amy Benson seems like a 
possibility.

For one thing, we have this from the interview:

JKR: Today, just today, July the 16th, I was really hoping someone 
would ask me about R.A.B., and you did it. Just today, because I 
think that is ? well, I hoped that people would.

MA: Is there more we should ask about him?

JKR: There are things you will deduce on further readings, I think ? 
well you two definitely will, for sure ? that, yeah, I was really 
hoping that R.A.B. would come out. 

Jen again: I'm thinking she means a re-read of HBP and not the whole 
series, so that probably narrows it down to people in this book--
Borgin, Regulus, and Carolyn's guess, Amy Benson. (And whoever else 
we find on future re-reads--someone related to Marcus Belby 
perhaps?). And she cleverly neither confirms nor denies the gender 
of RAB.

But back to Amy. So you have this person who was actually in that 
very cave. And after the cave incident, she and Dennis Bishop 'were 
never quite right afterwards.' So you presume they are simply 
traumatized Muggles.

But say instead, you have one traumatized Muggle and one witch who 
doesn't show any particular power yet, someone a bit like Neville. 
Then she's terrorized by Tom Riddle in the cave. The stress of the 
incident, like Neville being thrown out the window, activates her 
magical abilities.

Now a couple of things could happen from there. 

1) False Identity Theory: Amy was adopted and her name was changed. 
Meaning one of the characters we may already know and love had a 
different name as a child. But she never forgave or forgot Tom 
Riddle and his cruelty, and made it her mission in life to seek 
revenge. I like this one b/c we already have a successful false 
identity in canon. Also, she would be several years younger than TR, 
and not someone he recognized at Hogawarts, or she attended a 
different wizarding school.

**McGonagall would be my first choice here, except she didn't tell 
Dumbledore her identity or that she had already destroyed the 
locket. And she's not dead (technically RAB doesn't have to be dead 
even if he/she expected to be, either by the posion in the cave or 
other means). But McGonagall would be the right age.**

2) We've met Amy, but don't know it yet. She's dead, but we've seen 
her in the form of a ghost, portrait, or Pensieve memory

3)Amy attented another wizarding school (or even Hogwarts) but we 
haven't actually met her yet. Or we have, but don't know her name 
yet.

Any other thoughts on this?

MissMarple!Jen, hoping for another false-identity story.







From boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jul 25 22:16:28 2005
From: boyd.t.smythe at boyd_smythe.yahoo.invalid (Smythe, Boyd T {FLNA})
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:16:28 -0500
Subject: HBP: Haiku
Message-ID: <FDCCEEC6AAC8DD4AA2DD0C28E41D2832CAF915@...>

Some spoilt haikus:

Sweet, innocent child
In the seventh month was born.
Death comes so quickly.

Quivering fleshy
Gelatinous mound of boy--
Abusive Dursleys.

Egocentric fool!
Senile trusting dolt, Albus!
The Dark Lord has won.

Dim reflections on
A black soul forever torn:
Abomination!

Such pretty trinkets!
Are they on sale today, sir?
Tom's Used Horcruxes.

----

Kneasy wrote: >Tom has been demonstrating his 'powers' for some time. Would
the Underage Magic Watchdogs detect it? Use of a wand is not necessary -
Dobby didn't use one levitating the cake and that was noticed. According to
canon it's best spotted in places where adult wizards aren't likely to be
throwing spells around - a Muggle orphanage would stick out like a sore
thumb. Is this how DD was able to track him down?<

Very flinty, IMO. If we must explain it, then I'll go with either his being
outside the MoM's jurisdiction in that Muggle orphanage, or they weren't
worried since no one would believe the kids he terrorized, anyway. Stupid
Muggles, as they might have said.

>Now that the first flush of jumping to conclusions has started to fade,
Regulus doesn't look such a hot favourite after all. Only to be expected,
it's rare that herself offers clues with  such an apparently simple
solution.<

I offer for your enjoyment one dear Mr. Borgin. Acquainted with old
artifacts, dark magic, and Voldemort (who worked for him fresh out of
Hogwarts). Might have noticed that certain artifacts were missing from the
homes of the newly departed and put two and two together. If he was
informing DD of Draco's demands and progress in HBP, then we can believe
that DD orchestrated the tower scene. I don't believe this one myself, but
hey, it's possible.

>Are they true initials - or another HBP-type nom-de-wand?<

Yep. Maybe Pettigrew calls himself something, sort of his attempt to make a
nickname more worthy than Wormtail? Or someone has a true name we don't
know...a magical being, perhaps. Kreacher? Dobby? That'd give us a reason
for having seen so much of them, and it would explain how someone got the
locket without spilling the potion; they do have a different brand of magic,
eh? And Dobby may have known of one horcrumb: the diary, which lived with
the Malfoys for quite a while. After all, isn't that what brought him into
Harry's life?

Other possible RAB's: Lupin's been living with the werewolves, presumably
under a pseudonym; perhaps Sirius did this all under Regulus' name to get
ESE!Regulus killed and throw Voldy off the scent.

Still, it's just as likely she cooked up some new character for RAB.

On a related note, did anyone else laugh at her when she said, "I'm aware
that "Half-Blood Prince" will not delight everyone, because it does shoot
down some theories." Huh? The interview alone shot down more theories than
all of HBP! I think she finally realized that we fans can interpret
everything multiple ways, though, because she seems to have set out to sink
theories in the interviews, and she had DD get blown off the tower to give
him a heavy-duty death to make it clear he's dead.

I'm still not sure whether the interviews should be considered canon,
though. Art is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.

--boyd
"You believe what you want to believe."--Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers



From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 00:01:28 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:01:28 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The AK that was (or wasn't)
References: <dc3gb6+4gag@...>
Message-ID: <016f01c59175$2c402690$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

Pip!Squeak replies:
Trina, have you ever seen someone faint? Because I have, twice, and 
I assure you - they fall backwards.

To be precise - they go down straight, like a tree being felled, hit 
the ground with an almighty 'thump' and lie on their backs facing 
upwards. 

Generally, the knees only buckle if a) you lose consciousness 
gradually and have time to semi-control the fall or b) you're an 
actor anxious to avoid concussion. Most 'faints' that you see in 
drama show buckling knees - that's because buckling at the knees 
allows you some control over the fall.


SSSusan:
Heh heh.  I suspect no one will be able to compete w/ me for the position of Fainting Queen of TOC.  I have fainted while giving blood, after smashing my finger in a car door, during my wedding, at a Thai restaurant in Chicago, in the middle of the night after jumping up to care for a sick child (on three different occasions), and etc.  (Yes, I'm wired a little weird.)

Anyhoo... I can vouch for the fact that people who are just *standing* there do tend to fall backwards.  None of that buckling of the knees crap to make the fall gentler.  Nope, you just topple over and go BAM!  OTOH, if the person is actively *doing* something -- say, trying to safely reach a bed before fainting -- s/he can, indeed, fall *forwards.*  I had the cuts & bruises to prove it in June.

Siriusly Snapey Susan, apologizing for the totally canon-free post.

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 02:01:30 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:01:30 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's watch
Message-ID: <dc45hq+qggg@...>

Jen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/2545
:

<< Although...we still don't know the significance of DD's watch. >>

Some suggest that the 12 hands on DD's watch are 12 people over whom
he is watching, but I think that watch is strictly astrological In my
theory, the 12 hands divide the 12 houses. (In the physical world, the
sky turns and the Houses stay in place except for like 1 degree a day,
but the watch face stays in place and the House Hands turn.) The
planets around the edge move in accordance with the planets in the
real sky. DD knows, or there is some marking not specified in JKR's
description, where the constellations are. Such a watch can tell time
AND tell you the moment's astrological influences. I don't think JKR
believes in astrology, but the centaurs do.

I have no theory for Ron's watch yet. 





From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 06:04:09 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:04:09 -0000
Subject: PettigrEWWW might still be TREWWW
Message-ID: <dc4jop+7a2h@...>

Several days ago Nora complained to me offlist that my new S/N ship
foiled her recent attempt to resurrect the old TEW EWWWW to be TREWWW
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132993

For those of you who want the short version, TEW EWWWW to be TREWWW
posits that Snape loved (or something) Lily and therefore asked Voldy
to spare her in Godric's Hollow, something JKR has just confirmed
Voldy indeed tried to do. The problem is that if, as I suggested here
recently, it's actually *Narcissa* that Snape has always loved, then
why would he ask Voldy to spare Lily? Well, maybe just from the
goodness of is heart? 

<pauses a second to consider>

Naaah. 

Of course, Nora really did nothing so impolite as *complaining*, but
still, I thought it wouldn't do to upset her. I mean, she has good
connections with Faith <g>. Besides, I kind of liked her resurrection
of TEW EWWWW to be TREWWW myself, until the obviousness of S/N hit me
on the head like a bludger. So why not resurrect TEW EWWWW with just
one small change? I've opined more than once in the past that if
anybody has been secretly in love with Lily, my first bet would be
Peter. Unlike Snape, Peter is *just* the person to fall in love with
Lily, for very similar reasons to those that made Snape fall for (as I
believe) Narcissa. I mean, Peter idolized James because James was the
biggest bully in the playground. Of course he also worshiped the
boss's girlfriend. And Lily, unlike James, would be kind to Peter. She
would actually notice that he has more in him than the rest of the
Marauders could see. She would nag James to treat him more decently.
In Moody's photograph of the original Order, Lily and James were
sitting on either side of Peter. This arrangement was naturally Lily's
idea. Just think, what this kind of attention would do to poor Peter.
*Of course* he was secretly in love with her. Of course he'd secretly
resented James.

Then a bigger bully than James found Peter and offered him life for
turning in the Potters. Peter must have felt a twinge of satisfaction
to finally get even with James, but what about Lily? Voldy didn't
actually need to kill Lily. Peter named her as his price. Perhaps he
even thought about it as a noble deed: saving the life of the girl he
loved, when her husband and son couldn't be saved. And Voldy
practically considered fullfilling his promise to his servant for
whole three seconds. 

But in the climax of Book 7, at the moment of truth when everything
would dimmed lost, Wormtail for some reason would finally look into
Harry's eyes, and he'll see *her* eyes, and he will finally find the
courage to strike at his Master, the Master who broke his promise to
poor Wormtail and killed *her*. Voldemort should have realized this
would happen, but then of course, he has always underestimated love.

EWWWW...


Neri







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 09:05:32 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:05:32 -0000
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
In-Reply-To: <bd.5c4232fc.30168ccb@...>
Message-ID: <dc4ucs+m34n@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, triner918 at a... wrote:
> Pip!Squeak wrote about AK's in canon:

> Nobody *who dies* is blasted off their feet by the AK. They 
> drop/fall  where they're standing/flying.
>  

With  what we can deduce from canon that seems to be so,
but see below.

But it's possible that Jo has been indulging in a little poetic 
licence, a little judicious fiddling to match portent and event.

The chapter title - The Lightning-Struck Tower. The card that 
Sybill keeps turning up that disturbs her so much - The Tower 
Struck by Lightning - and it just happens to depict a tower, struck
by a stylised lightning bolt, and a man falling from the top. 

Could all be a double-bluff to confound us, but it's not the only 
instance where we can find markedly different effects from the 
same spell. Expelliamus! for example; it can vary from blasting 
Lockhart off his feet and into a wall to simply removing someone's 
wand fom their hand.

Might even depend on the power of the wizard casting the spell.
If that's the case, Cedric's AK would be a bad example to use:
Peter is not reckoned to be the best wizard in the business (though
some think he is being deliberately under-rated for plot purposes)
and he is not using his own wand. 

So far we have seen two AKs cast with an intent to kill a person by 
mature wizards/witches using their own wands (assuming Sevvy did
in fact throw an unchanged AK at DD). Bella at Sirius in the Ministry, 
where Sirius goes sailing backwards through the Veil and DD sailing 
off the tower. 

As things stand at the moment, I'm gullible enough to accept it.
Always open to persuasion, of course.

Kneasy






From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 09:32:31 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:32:31 -0000
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
In-Reply-To: <dc4ucs+m34n@...>
Message-ID: <dc4vvf+q6p9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, triner918 at a... wrote:
> > Pip!Squeak wrote about AK's in canon:
> 
> > Nobody *who dies* is blasted off their feet by the AK. They 
> > drop/fall  where they're standing/flying.
> >  
> 
> With  what we can deduce from canon that seems to be so,
> but see below.
> 
> But it's possible that Jo has been indulging in a little poetic 
> licence, a little judicious fiddling to match portent and event.
> 
> The chapter title - The Lightning-Struck Tower. The card that 
> Sybill keeps turning up that disturbs her so much - The Tower 
> Struck by Lightning - and it just happens to depict a tower, struck
> by a stylised lightning bolt, and a man falling from the top. 
> 
> Could all be a double-bluff to confound us, but it's not the only 
> instance where we can find markedly different effects from the 
> same spell. Expelliamus! for example; it can vary from blasting 
> Lockhart off his feet and into a wall to simply removing someone's 
> wand fom their hand.
> 
> Might even depend on the power of the wizard casting the spell.
> If that's the case, Cedric's AK would be a bad example to use:
> Peter is not reckoned to be the best wizard in the business (though
> some think he is being deliberately under-rated for plot purposes)
> and he is not using his own wand. 
> 
> So far we have seen two AKs cast with an intent to kill a person 
by 
> mature wizards/witches using their own wands (assuming Sevvy did
> in fact throw an unchanged AK at DD). Bella at Sirius in the 
Ministry, 
> where Sirius goes sailing backwards through the Veil and DD 
sailing 
> off the tower. 
> 
> As things stand at the moment, I'm gullible enough to accept it.
> Always open to persuasion, of course.
> 
> Kneasy

Voldy is the one who is most adept at simply dropping folk in their 
tracks, now he *is* a powerful wizard; control, clinical execution, 
heartlessness, are these qualities that make a *good* AK? If so then 
Wormtail's hit on Cedric makes him a deft hand. Snape's a little 
sloppy.

I think JKR was having a bit of fun, poison him, shoot him, then 
throw him off a cliff, so to speak. How dead do we need DD to be 
already? Is this the dropping of anvil sized hints?

Also the fall allows the locket to pop out of DD's robes, therefore 
relieving Harry of the responsibility of riffling through a dead 
man's pockets. Bit of an emotional faux pas that would be don't you 
think?

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 11:24:25 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:24:25 -0000
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
In-Reply-To: <dc4vvf+q6p9@...>
Message-ID: <dc56h9+3qij@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> wrote:
> 
> Voldy is the one who is most adept at simply dropping folk in their 
> tracks, now he *is* a powerful wizard; control, clinical execution, 
> heartlessness, are these qualities that make a *good* AK? If so then 
> Wormtail's hit on Cedric makes him a deft hand. Snape's a little 
> sloppy.
> 

Frank Bryce, you mean?
Again, it could be argued that this may not be a good yardstick. Voldy's
not back on his feet yet, probably still below par - he whinges on
in the graveyard about how weak and powerless he was during
his sabbatical amongst the Albanian rodentia. Indeed, earlier in
the chapter 1 of GoF Voldy states that the journey "has tired me greatly"
and also "I am no stronger, and a few days alone would be enough
to rob me of the little health I have regained under your clumsy care."

Poor sod. He's not a well man, you know. Needs nourishing broths,
TLC and a sympathetic counsellor to get him back into mid-season
form. Never mind, "Bone of the father..." etc. seems to do the trick.

 
> I think JKR was having a bit of fun, poison him, shoot him, then 
> throw him off a cliff, so to speak. How dead do we need DD to be 
> already? Is this the dropping of anvil sized hints?
>

Not so much a hint as a smack in the mazzard.
Three times - What I tell you three times is true," quoth the Bellman.
 
> Also the fall allows the locket to pop out of DD's robes, therefore 
> relieving Harry of the responsibility of riffling through a dead 
> man's pockets. Bit of an emotional faux pas that would be don't you 
> think?
> 

Faux pas it may be - but there's some useful stuff in there - his watch,
the putter-outer, small change - and who knows what else. Be a shame
to see them go to waste, wouldn't it? (How often have I heard that
phrase at a wake as the vultures eye the pickings? Too often.)

One interesting ommision from HP - after the funeral, isn't that the
time that the will is usually read? Anything interesting in there, do you
think?

Kneasy






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 11:26:42 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:26:42 -0000
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
In-Reply-To: <016f01c59175$2c402690$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
Message-ID: <dc56li+ggm3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "susiequsie23" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> Pip!Squeak replies:
> Trina, have you ever seen someone faint? Because I have, twice, and 
> I assure you - they fall backwards.
> 
> To be precise - they go down straight, like a tree being felled, 
hit 
> the ground with an almighty 'thump' and lie on their backs facing 
> upwards. 
> 
> Generally, the knees only buckle if a) you lose consciousness 
> gradually and have time to semi-control the fall or b) you're an 
> actor anxious to avoid concussion. Most 'faints' that you see in 
> drama show buckling knees - that's because buckling at the knees 
> allows you some control over the fall.
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> Heh heh.  I suspect no one will be able to compete w/ me for the 
position of Fainting Queen of TOC.  I have fainted while giving 
blood, after smashing my finger in a car door, during my wedding, at 
a Thai restaurant in Chicago, in the middle of the night after 
jumping up to care for a sick child (on three different occasions), 
and etc.  (Yes, I'm wired a little weird.)
> 
> Anyhoo... I can vouch for the fact that people who are just 
*standing* there do tend to fall backwards.  None of that buckling of 
the knees crap to make the fall gentler.  Nope, you just topple over 
and go BAM!  OTOH, if the person is actively *doing* something -- 
say, trying to safely reach a bed before fainting -- s/he can, 
indeed, fall *forwards.*  I had the cuts & bruises to prove it in 
June.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan, apologizing for the totally canon-free post.
> 
>  
I fainted one time, and remember is clearly as I was in a resturant, 
and was trying to get outside for some fresh air. My knees, buckled, 
and I fell back. It actually felt like I crumpled in slow motion. I 
also remember getting tunnel vision
Fran






From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 12:25:11 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:25:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Question re Chapter 13 - The Secret Riddle
In-Reply-To: <dc1e0l+janh@...>
Message-ID: <20050726122512.66339.qmail@...>

> Snow:
> I would think that a wizard of Dumbledore's caliber would want to
> test 
> the waterssee the response for himselfto know who he is really 
> dealing with given Tom's birthright gifts. To me it was nothing
> more 
> than a test of Tom's reactions to wand like magic...


Yes I agree that that's WHY Dumbledore performed an act of magic but
why did he pick that SPECIFIC act, namely flaming Tom's wardrobe and
apparently destroying it?  Would this not send a message to an
already clearly disturbed kid that when you've got a wand in your
hand you can wreak real destruction?

Why didn't Dumbledore - who is the transfiguration professor - change
the bed into a giant chicken?  Why use an act of destruction to
demonstrate magic?

I still think it was an odd choice.

Magda


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 12:49:15 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:49:15 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The AK that was (or wasn't)
References: <dc56li+ggm3@...>
Message-ID: <009e01c591e0$6e8bba80$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

Fran:
> I fainted one time, and remember is clearly as I was in a resturant, 
> and was trying to get outside for some fresh air. My knees, buckled, 
> and I fell back. It actually felt like I crumpled in slow motion. I 
> also remember getting tunnel vision


SSSusan:
Yes, Fran, let me tell you -- the tunnel vision?  PAY ATTENTION to that and get thee *down* on the ground!  I have managed to fend off what seemed like a sure faint by lying flat on my back for several minutes.  As for feeling like you're falling in slo-mo... I wonder if any witnesses could confirm or deny?  My husband says I pretty much just THUMP! right down, hard.  Ain't nothin' graceful about it, I don't think.

Siriusly Snapey Susan, not sure this is really what she wants to be known for around here, but unable to resist the PSA to Fran.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 12:57:59 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <20050725141140.44696.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <20050726125800.10929.qmail@...>

> Carolyn:
> What I just don't get is why anyone thinks Regulus 
> is up to retrieving the locket in the first place, 
> and re-creating/inventing a very complex potion, 
> then leaving everything shipshape and tidy so
> no one notices he's been there.


Why wouldn't he be up to it?  Just because that keen-eyed, objective,
observor of humanity, Sirius Black, doesn't think his kid brother
amounted to much, does that mean there wasn't more to the boy than
was immediately apparent?

We don't know much about Regulus but from what we've seen of his
family, Dark or Light side, he was probably fully capable of taking
decisive action in the course of something he believed in and pushing
the limits of his own courage.  

I doubt that Borgin was RAB.  He's a minor character in the plot. 
And if Regulus was RAB it won't be because he's important to the plot
but rather because it ties into a few other plot points that are
hanging loose at the moment:

1.  Harry inheriting 12GP and everything in it.
2.  Harry inheriting Kreacher.
3.  Kreacher being close at hand at Hogwarts and having to obey
Harry.
4.  Mundungus Fletcher being caught stealing loot from 12GP.  

Regulus was RAB.  I'm betting on it.

Magda

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From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 13:14:18 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:14:18 -0000
Subject: Question re Chapter 13 - The Secret Riddle
In-Reply-To: <20050726122512.66339.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dc5cva+nc97@...>

Magda: 
> 
> Yes I agree that that's WHY Dumbledore performed an act of magic but
> why did he pick that SPECIFIC act, namely flaming Tom's wardrobe and
> apparently destroying it?  Would this not send a message to an
> already clearly disturbed kid that when you've got a wand in your
> hand you can wreak real destruction?

Pippin:

Dumbledore didn't do real destruction, he created an illusion. It's
not like it would take Tom a long time to figure  out that he could 
learn to do real damage, anyway. I think it was a bit of tough love. 
If Dumbledore was to have any chance of reaching Tom, he had to get
his attention first.  

Pippin 






From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 13:17:50 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:17:50 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <20050726125800.10929.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dc5d5u+e639@...>

 Magda:
> Regulus was RAB.  I'm betting on it.

Potioncat:

The only reason I have doubts is that it's too easy. Of course, it's 
only easy for Potter-heads like us.
 
So, I think you're right and here's why.
RAB didn't go to the cave and remove the locket. Nor did he destroy 
the hornbook. He was the one assigned to place the locket (and we're 
all asssuming it was a locket) in the cave in the first place; and I 
think he knew he wouldn't be coming out. He knew what it was, but 
didn't know to destroy it. 

So Reggie stops by his house, swtiches the lockets, and goes on the 
mission. He leaves a "Gotcha" note for the Big Guy, knowing that one 
day LV would come looking for it.

They didn't find his body did they? It's in the lake with the other 
Inferi.
Kathy W.






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 13:39:54 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:39:54 -0000
Subject: It was LEWWWpin was Re: PettigrEWWW might still be TREWWW
In-Reply-To: <dc4jop+7a2h@...>
Message-ID: <dc5efa+4r08@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...>
wrote:
. 
> 
> Of course, Nora really did nothing so impolite as *complaining*, but
> still, I thought it wouldn't do to upset her. I mean, she has good
> connections with Faith <g>. Besides, I kind of liked her
resurrection of TEW EWWWW to be TREWWW myself, until the 
obviousness of S/N hit me on the head like a bludger. So why not 
resurrect TEW EWWWW with just one small change? I've opined more 
than once in the past that if anybody has been secretly in love with 
Lily, my first bet would be Peter. 

Pippin:
Naah, it's Lupin,IMO, whose profession of feelings for Lily caused
that outbreak of goosebumps that Jo got when she went to the movies.
Lily's compassion and reckless trust for  Lupin made her reveal the 
identity of the secret-keeper to him, and Lupin passed the
information to Voldemort  in return for the promise to spare her
life. 

It wouldn't take much rationalizing for Lupin to reach the same
conclusion we did, that the SK switch was useless,  that it was only
a matter of time before that reckless idiot Sirius did something to
give Peter away, such as going to check on him in his hiding place. 
This way, at least Lily would be spared, and Lupin would be honored 
above all others, including that thug Fenrir who was the cause of all
Lupin's misery. Yes.

Speaking of Severus, in all those detention records Harry had to copy
out, weren't there any of Snape's? D'you suppose he really was
careful and clever enough to stay out of trouble, or that he charmed
his records so Harry wouldn't notice them?

Pippin





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 15:05:26 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:05:26 -0000
Subject: Patronuses and Proof
In-Reply-To: <dc3kk8+i5hs@...>
Message-ID: <dc5jfm+etsm@...>

Sigune wrote: 
> Could it be that the shape of Snape's Patronus will provide a key to 
> his allegiances in Book 7? If I am not mistaken, JKR has politely 
> declined to reveal the shape of Snape's Patronus because 'it would 
> give too much away'. Might not this shape rather than bottled 
> memories be proof of where Snape's loyalties really lie? If the 
> killing of Dumbledore was forced on him against his own will, and his 
> look of loathing was not directed at Dumbledore but at his own deed, 
> then in all probability the death has affected him deeply - deep 
> enough to change the shape of his Patronus into, say, a phoenix... It 
> could be in preparation of this kind of revelation that we have been 
> shown Tonks' Patronus change on the basis of deep emotion.
>

Potioncat:
First JKR tells us (at the last moment) that a Patronus is distinctive 
and unique, then she shows us Tonk's "new" Patronus. She does this 
without telling us what it is or what it had been. Of course, knowing 
Snape, it might be that it wasn't Tonks, but someone else; or that he 
knew both Patronuses and preferred the earlier one; or that this one 
looks weaker than the one she used to summon. Who knows!

But we're told Dark Magic can't be used on them and they can't be 
counterfitted....so it would seem that if Snape's Patronus showed up, 
it would be recognised. Would it be proof that Snape was a good guy, or 
seen as proof that he is a powerful Dark Wizard who can manipulate 
Patronuses?

Everyone's immediate doubt of Snape reminds me of how quickly everyone 
believed Sirius was the spy. I think this group of wizards jumps to 
ESE! conclusions faster than we do.
Kathy W.






From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 15:09:38 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:09:38 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dc5d5u+e639@...>
Message-ID: <dc5jni+f9vh@...>

Magda:
> I doubt that Borgin was RAB.  He's a minor character in the plot. 
> And if Regulus was RAB it won't be because he's important to the 
plot
> but rather because it ties into a few other plot points that are
> hanging loose at the moment:
> 
> 1.  Harry inheriting 12GP and everything in it.
> 2.  Harry inheriting Kreacher.
> 3.  Kreacher being close at hand at Hogwarts and having to obey
> Harry.
> 4.  Mundungus Fletcher being caught stealing loot from 12GP.  
> 
> Regulus was RAB.  I'm betting on it.

Jen: Not to mention the Aberforth conenction. Yep, I think you 
proably nailed it. It's just so....obvious, you know? That the 
mystery would be wrapped up so succintly and neatly from the text, 
with every clue readily available. Maybe potioncat was right, that 
it's only obvious to people closely analyzing the text. I'm still 
hoping for another twist on the RAB, something we didn't see coming.

Why is Amy Benson=RAB a nonstarter? I havn't gotten any feedback on 
that one.

Potioncat:
> So, I think you're right and here's why.
> RAB didn't go to the cave and remove the locket. Nor did he
> destroy the hornbook. He was the one assigned to place the locket
> (and we're all asssuming it was a locket) in the cave in the first
> place; and I think he knew he wouldn't be coming out. He knew what
> it was, but didn't know to destroy it. 
> 
> So Reggie stops by his house, swtiches the lockets, and goes on
> the mission. He leaves a "Gotcha" note for the Big Guy, knowing
> that one day LV would come looking for it. They didn't find his
> body did they? It's in the lake with the other Inferi.

Jen: Hah! Love this idea that Regulus is an Inferi. Also wondering 
about Benjy Fenwick and Caradoc Dearborn if neither shows up in Book 
7. 

But about Regulus placing the locket, a little quibble there. Can't 
believe Voldemort would hand over a piece of his soul to a junior DE 
and let him wander around the city and countryside with it. And we 
have it confirmed now he was a junior DE much along the lines of 
Draco--no longer just Sirius' words. 

Jen





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 17:00:08 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:00:08 -0000
Subject: Patronuses and Proof
In-Reply-To: <dc5jfm+etsm@...>
Message-ID: <dc5q6o+7f4f@...>


> Potioncat:
> But we're told Dark Magic can't be used on them and they can't be 
> counterfitted....so it would seem that if Snape's Patronus showed
up, 
> it would be recognised. Would it be proof that Snape was a good
guy, or 
> seen as proof that he is a powerful Dark Wizard who can manipulate 
> Patronuses?

Pippin:
There are two facts to consider:

1) Snape's patronus would give too much away.
2) Dumbledore knows what it is.

I don't see how we can possibly reconcile that with Badguy!Snape, 
unless the patronus would give away an animagus form or something
like that.

Pippin






From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 17:57:34 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:57:34 -0000
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
In-Reply-To: <dc4ucs+m34n@...>
Message-ID: <dc5tie+ee2f@...>


> > Pip!Squeak wrote about AK's in canon:
> 
> > Nobody *who dies* is blasted off their feet by the AK. They 
> > drop/fall  where they're standing/flying.
> >  
> Kneasy writes:
> With  what we can deduce from canon that seems to be so,
> but see below.
> 
> But it's possible that Jo has been indulging in a little poetic 
> licence, a little judicious fiddling to match portent and event.
<snip>
> 
> Could all be a double-bluff to confound us, but it's not the only 
> instance where we can find markedly different effects from the 
> same spell. Expelliamus! for example; it can vary from blasting 
> Lockhart off his feet and into a wall to simply removing someone's 
> wand fom their hand.
> 

Pip!Squeak
True, but in that case, it's the first time we've seen Expelliamus. 
The apparent problem with Expelliamus is *not* hitting the opposing 
wizard with the force of several tons of bricks, instead learning to 
control the force of the spell so that you only remove the wand. 
Expelliamus throws people around on several occasions, not just the 
once.

Of course, throwing people against walls is always a handy skill to 
have{g}.

Giving markedly different effects from the Killing Curse on one 
notable occasion, in the third book since it was introduced, is - 
um. Well, I'd prefer to think 'deliberate clue to *something*' 
rather than 'lousy writing' or 'downright cheating'.

Kneasy:
> So far we have seen two AKs cast with an intent to kill a person 
> by mature wizards/witches using their own wands (assuming Sevvy did
> in fact throw an unchanged AK at DD). Bella at Sirius in the 
> Ministry, where Sirius goes sailing backwards through the Veil and 
> DD sailing off the tower. 

Pip
Don't you mean 'two AKs cast that are successful in killing a 
person'? (Rather than, say, a bleedin' great bird)

Granted that Voldemort might not have used his own wand in GoF when 
he killed Frank Bryce, still he casts several AKs in the Battle of 
Pelannor Fields ... oops. I mean Battle of the Ministry ... And none 
of the little darlings blast anything off its feet. Not even Fawkes 
soars into the air on receiving his AK, and he's flying at the time!

Nope, everything just drops. Sorry. Occasionally they drop in a 
rolling sort of way, for a bit of variety. But the amazing 
levitating Dumbledore is - amazing. {g}

Kneasy:
> Always open to persuasion, of course.


If I start vaguely hinting 'conspiracy between Snape and 
Dumbledore', will you feel happier?

Pip!Squeak

"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 19:30:47 2005
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:30:47 -0000
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
In-Reply-To: <dc5tie+ee2f@...>
Message-ID: <dc6317+nlpi@...>

Pip!Squeak, discussing the "force" of spells: " True, but in that
case, it's the first time we've seen Expelliamus. The apparent problem
with Expelliamus is *not* hitting the opposing wizard with the force
of several tons of bricks, instead learning to control the force of
the spell so that you only remove the wand. Expelliamus throws people
around on several occasions, not just the once."

Yes, and here's the first time we saw it:

"Both of them swung their wands above their heads and pointed them at
their opponent; Snape cried: "Expelliarmus!" There was a dazzling
flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: He flew
backward off the stage, smashed into the wall, and slid down it to
sprawl on the floor."

Who was that who blew Lockhart off his feet? Lucky for Gilderoy they
weren't on the Astronomy Tower.  We have Bella's example as well.

We see it other times, not just by Snape, that spells can have a
physical force beside their primary effect. It seems to happen most
often when the caster's adrenaline is up; not hard to believe. Snape,
malicious so-and-so that he is, would no doubt put a little extra
oomph into every hurtful spell he cast. Voldemort probably wouldn't;
he didn't care two pins for Frank Bryce, he just wanted him out of the
way.  Same for Wormtongue - er, Wormtail - and Cedric, "the spare."

Jim Ferer





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 19:43:08 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:43:08 -0000
Subject: The AK that was (or wasn't)
In-Reply-To: <dc5tie+ee2f@...>
Message-ID: <dc63oc+soj9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pip at e...> wrote:
> 
> Kneasy:
> > Always open to persuasion, of course.
> 
> 
> If I start vaguely hinting 'conspiracy between Snape and 
> Dumbledore', will you feel happier?
> 
> Pip!Squeak
> 

'Course there's a conspiracy, "as ane fule kno" ('scuse the
Molesworth quote, he's my favouritest boarding school inmate.
Keep trying to match the characters - Luna makes a pretty neat
Fotherington-Thomas - he says things like 'Hallo, clouds - 
hallo, sky' - "he is uterly wet and kepes dollies at home.") 

It's just that  we have different 'conspiracies' in mind.
Or not so much a conspiracy as a bit of arm-twisting - "I cop
something really nasty messing with Voldy stuff and you zap 
me - OK? Don't worry about young Potter, I'll make sure he
doesn't interfere."

IIRC DD freezes Harry before he knows who's coming through
the door; he thinks it's going to be Snape, but it's Draino. But he
holds Harry frozen until Snape has done the dirty deed and death
breaks the spell.

Snape doesn't like it, but he's promised.
Hence his reaction when Harry calls him a coward.

Kneasy







From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 20:24:52 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:24:52 -0000
Subject: It was LEWWWpin was Re: PettigrEWWW might still be TREWWW
In-Reply-To: <dc5efa+4r08@...>
Message-ID: <dc666k+jfn9@...>

> Pippin:
> Naah, it's Lupin,IMO, whose profession of feelings for Lily caused
> that outbreak of goosebumps that Jo got when she went to the movies.

Neri:
Ah, but you see, if it was indeed ESE!LEWWWpin who loved Lily, JKR 
wouldn't have mentioned this outbreak of goose bumps at all. This 
would have been too close to the mark for comfort. And it would have 
caused her worse symptoms than goose bumps, too. But since it is 
actually *not* Lupin but PettigrEWWW who loved Lily, it were merely 
goose bumps and she felt secure enough to mention them. 


> Lily's compassion and reckless trust for  Lupin made her reveal the 
> identity of the secret-keeper to him, and Lupin passed the
> information to Voldemort  in return for the promise to spare her
> life. 
> 

Neri:
ESE!Lupin-loved-Lily-and-tried-to-spared-her mainly makes his crimes 
slightly more vile, if this is still possible at all, but otherwise I 
don't see much profit in it, thematically or plot wise. ESE!Lupin 
would be a shattering revelation near the climax of Book 7, right? So 
there won't be time or emotional momentum left for *another* 
shattering reversal. But we have known Wormtail as a traitor for 
three books, so now he's just ripe to do something noble for Harry, 
and then it can be part of Lily's love protection. 

> This way, at least Lily would be spared, and Lupin would be honored 
> above all others, including that thug Fenrir who was the cause of 
all
> Lupin's misery. Yes.

Neri:
You mean, Lupin's revenge on Fenrir for biting him would be being 
higher in the pecking order? That sounds a little... weak.

And speaking of Fenrir, we now have a canonically super-evil werewolf 
who likes biting small children, and he's so obviously Lupin's 
opposite number. So if Lupin turns out to be evil too, who's left to 
show that werewolves aren't necessarily bad? You'd need someone 
extremely good and powerful to balance *both* Fenrir and ESE!Lupin. 
Luna would hardly fit the bill, and I don't remember her showing any 
symptoms in HBP either.

> 
> Speaking of Severus, in all those detention records Harry had to 
copy
> out, weren't there any of Snape's? D'you suppose he really was
> careful and clever enough to stay out of trouble, or that he charmed
> his records so Harry wouldn't notice them?
> 

Neri:
Maybe he wasn't called Snivellus for nothing. But if there were any 
records about him, he wouldn't even have to bother charming them. 
What do you think Crabbe and Goyle did for *their* detentions? It was 
probably like: "Goyle, have you learned to read already? Good. I want 
you to go over these records and burn anything with the name Snape in 
it." Standard cover-your-tracks triple-agent procedure.

Neri






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jul 26 22:10:17 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:10:17 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <20050726125800.10929.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dc6cc9+uclp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich 
<mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

Why wouldn't he be up to it? Just because that keen-eyed, objective,
observor of humanity, Sirius Black, doesn't think his kid brother
amounted to much, does that mean there wasn't more to the boy than
was immediately apparent?
<snip> 
And if Regulus was RAB it won't be because he's important to the plot
but rather because it ties into a few other plot points that are
hanging loose at the moment:
<snip list>

Carolyn:
Well, for all the reasons outlined in my earlier post, I just don't 
think he could have done the job alone, however courageous. This 
heist took knowledge and power, the sort DD had sifted away in his 
150 yr old brain, not easily acquired by an angry teenager, whether 
he was a junior DE or not. 

The current whereabouts of the real locket (if 12 GP) isn't 
conclusive that Reg planned and executed the theft, only strong 
evidence that he was involved. Talisman thought he did it with 
Kreacher, but how could the elf rationalise his involvement, even if 
strong enough to be an accomplice? It would also mean Kreacher made 
Regulus drink the poison... 

I still prefer my idea that it could have been Regulus' father, who 
thought Voldemort had started to go to far, and wanted to give his 
son a way out by helping him with his revenge. His father could then 
have killed himself by way of atonement for making his son poison 
himself. Or Uncle Alphard, as someone said - good reason for leaving 
his money to Sirius after that.

Children quite often have the same initials as their parents (did 
anyone else catch the fact that Merope, Morfin and Marvolo are all 
MG? I thought she might have some fun with that, but was 
disappointed).

A further interesting footnote is that Regulus is described as dying 
15 years previous to when Harry first sees the tapestry. That's 1980, 
the year Harry was born. If Regulus did take the locket, what was the 
trigger for him attempting it at that particular time? Voldemort was 
still very strong, although he had heard part of the prophecy at that 
point.

Carolyn





From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 00:28:02 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:28:02 -0000
Subject: Question re Chapter 13 - The Secret Riddle
In-Reply-To: <20050726122512.66339.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dc6kei+66ci@...>



Snow:
> I would think that a wizard of Dumbledore's caliber would want to
> test
> the waters
see the response for himself
to know who he is really
> dealing with given Tom's birthright gifts. To me it was nothing
> more
> than a test of Tom's reactions to wand like magic...


Magda: 
	
Yes I agree that that's WHY Dumbledore performed an act of magic but
why did he pick that SPECIFIC act, namely flaming Tom's wardrobe and
apparently destroying it? Would this not send a message to an
already clearly disturbed kid that when you've got a wand in your
hand you can wreak real destruction?

Why didn't Dumbledore - who is the transfiguration professor - change
the bed into a giant chicken? Why use an act of destruction to
demonstrate magic?

I still think it was an odd choice.


Snow:

It could be that what came after that scene is why Dumbledore 
specifically chose that particular object for his example of 
magic: "I think there is something trying to get out of your 
wardrobe." "And sure enough, a faint rattling could be heard from 
inside it. For the first time, Riddle looked frightened." Pg. 272 
U.S. 


Dumbledore may have achieved the goal in which he wished to 
accomplish because Riddle did react frightened when he was made to 
take out the shoebox with the activity still inside it until he 
emptied its contents onto his bed. Dumbledore may be proving to Tom 
that his previous private affairs are not so private anymore, in fact 
they are quite detectable and will not go unpunished if they 
continue. 

The objects in the box are quite suspicious though. Why did these 
objects have some life in them to rattle into motion? Are they people 
that had been transfigured into objects by Tom or did the objects 
become animate because of the magic that had been performed on the 
wardrobe? Probably one of those answers that is never going to matter 
in the whole scheme of things but its still curious. 

Snow






From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 00:34:24 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:34:24 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dc5d5u+e639@...>
Message-ID: <dc6kqg+qaf0@...>



Magda:
> Regulus was RAB. I'm betting on it.

Potioncat:

The only reason I have doubts is that it's too easy. Of course, it's
only easy for Potter-heads like us.

So, I think you're right and here's why.
RAB didn't go to the cave and remove the locket. Nor did he destroy
the hornbook. He was the one assigned to place the locket (and we're
all asssuming it was a locket) in the cave in the first place; and I
think he knew he wouldn't be coming out. He knew what it was, but
didn't know to destroy it.

So Reggie stops by his house, swtiches the lockets, and goes on the
mission. He leaves a "Gotcha" note for the Big Guy, knowing that one
day LV would come looking for it.

They didn't find his body did they? It's in the lake with the other
Inferi.
Kathy W

Snow:

I liked this idea Kathy, a lot... but I think we may be thinking of 
this theft as having had to take place after LV planted the locket in 
the cave. 

What if Regulus changed the locket (or had it changed) with the fake 
one before LV ever took it into the cave? It seems highly unlikely 
that the liquid protection over the locket had ever been removed and 
replaced. Dumbledore seems to think that it would have taken two 
wizards to do what Harry and he had done. That would leave me with 
the suspicion that the undetected locket switch occurred before it 
was placed in the Pencieve-like-bowl by LV. 

One possibility could be the reason why LV came to Hogwarts to ask 
Dumbledore for a position there. It was an attempt to get inside the 
castle to where he had left the necklace-Horcrux for safe keeping at 
the time it was made. When LV was unable to obtain the Horcrux he 
appointed a young Regulus Black, as a junior deatheater, to find an 
item he wished to have that he had previously left at Hogwarts. 
Regulus may have been part of the Slug Club at that time and learned 
vaguely of the Horcrux properties. Regulus put two and two together 
and switched the necklace with a similar one that was in the Black 
home. 

The note that Regulus left in the locket sounds like he felt LV would 
have detected the switch long after Regulus was killed. So although 
Regulus may have been asked to retrieve the locket, he might have 
only got as far as switching the locket, and wasn't killed because of 
it. The realization of the extent Voldemort would go to (of splitting 
his soul) could be why Regulus decided to back out of the deatheater 
society. Regulus of course knew what that would mean for him and 
assumed he would be dead as a result of leaving the deatheaters long 
before LV found out about the switch. 

Just another thought

Snow






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 01:44:13 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:44:13 -0000
Subject: Snapo and Draco: Where the heck did they run off to....
Message-ID: <dc6otd+7t4s@...>

Hey kids!  Need some help here. Am I understanding correctly that 
Draco, and only Draco should have offed DD? (murder and DD together 
makes me cry)  That's my take on it, and if so, will he be in trouble 
with He-who-looks-like-snake?  If Snape is on the OOTP side, and I 
believe he is, will he take Draco somewhere safe, maybe picking up 
Cissy on the way?  Seems to me both may be in deep doo since one did 
what the other was supposed to do,and there were other DE's who saw 
Snape do it.  Seems to me DE's probably dont trust each other--each 
man for himself/herself. Gots ta look good in front of LV, right? I 
can just hear one of them saying "the kid didn't do it, Snape did!" 

Also, why was Bella, if Snape assumption is correct, teaching Draco 
occlumency?  Keep thoughts from Snape, DD or LV?

As much as I loathed Snape before, now I have more respect for him 
and feel convinced he is indeed loyal to DD. It's not easy putting 
something out of its misery, and it must of been tough for Snape. Of 
course we will never see that side of him.  The sadness will boil up 
in side of him,and erupt as angry snide remarks and contemptuous 
sneers we all love to hate..

Fran
I get these thoughts and don't always know what to do with them..





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 03:58:15 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:58:15 -0000
Subject: It was LEWWWpin was Re: PettigrEWWW might still be TREWWW
In-Reply-To: <dc666k+jfn9@...>
Message-ID: <dc70on+bmrd@...>

> Neri:
> ESE!Lupin-loved-Lily-and-tried-to-spared-her mainly makes his
crimes  slightly more vile, if this is still possible at all, but
otherwise
I  don't see much profit in it, thematically or plot wise. ESE!Lupin 
 would be a shattering revelation near the climax of Book 7, right?
So  there won't be time or emotional momentum left for *another* 
shattering reversal. But we have known Wormtail as a traitor for 
three books, so now he's just ripe to do something noble for Harry, 
and then it can be part of Lily's love protection. 

Pippin:
But Harry's sure to get it wrong. He can spend most of seven being
sure that it was Snape who had the unhealthy crush on his mum, 
no matter who it is really.

> Neri:
> You mean, Lupin's revenge on Fenrir for biting him would be being 
> higher in the pecking order? That sounds a little... weak.

Pippin:
Not if your motives are political. Remember how Voldie took advantage
of the infighting among the Giants?

Neri:
> And speaking of Fenrir, we now have a canonically super-evil
werewolf  who likes biting small children, and he's so obviously
Lupin's opposite number. So if Lupin turns out to be evil too, who's 
left to  show that werewolves aren't necessarily bad? You'd need 
someone extremely good and powerful to balance *both* Fenrir and 
ESE!Lupin. Luna would hardly fit the bill, and I don't remember her 
showing any  symptoms in HBP either.

Pippin:
Ah, Fenrir. So useful. With him around, picking his teeth and
glowering, who'd ever suspect poor, lovestruck Remus? I've been
having a good chuckle about Herself saying she used Tonks's romance 
as a red herring. Little do we know. 

But you're forgetting Bill.  Extremely good, extremely powerful, and 
discrimination against him is even more unfair, because he can't even 
transform!

> Neri:
> Maybe he wasn't called Snivellus for nothing. But if there were any 
records about him, he wouldn't even have to bother charming them. 
What do you think Crabbe and Goyle did for *their* detentions? It
was  probably like: "Goyle, have you learned to read already? Good. I
want  you to go over these records and burn anything with the name 
Snape in  it." Standard cover-your-tracks triple-agent procedure.

Pippin:
But then he'd have to obliviate Goyle or risk blackmail from Malfoy.
Too dangerous.

Pippin





From triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 04:00:12 2005
From: triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid (triner918 at triner2001.yahoo.invalid)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:00:12 EDT
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The AK that was (or wasn't)
Message-ID: <140.48c2cce6.301860cc@...>

Pip!Squeak wrote:
 
Nope, everything just drops. Sorry. Occasionally they drop in a 
rolling  sort of way, for a bit of variety. But the amazing 
levitating Dumbledore is  - amazing. {g}


That just doesn't fit my mental picture of the AK.  In my head, the  great 
green light hits you and you're instantly dead, but the force of the spell  
lifts Dead You up and flings you to the ground, thus adding further insult to  
injury.  
 
I especially like this thought because of Voldemort.  Haven't you  noticed 
he's rather fond of the theatrical?  Truly, let's check out his  record.  He 
makes a horcrux from his diary, but that's not enough.  He  also makes sure it 
can also be used to reopen the Chamber of Secrets. Not  to mention how very 
chatty he was with Harry in the Chamber.  And then  the whole graveyard scene in 
GoF.  Very theatrical, from the rebodification  spell (what exactly would you 
call that spell, anyway?) to untying Harry and  returning his wand. (Also very 
chatty instead of just takin' care of  business)  Creepy and effective, yes, 
but over the top  theatrics.  Even the protections of the locket horcrux  have 
a  theatrical bent.  Blood sacrifice?  Crude, as Dumbledore said, but  still, 
Voldy is puttin' on a "big shew" for his enemies.   Which leads me to the AK.  
With Tommy Boy's love of the big  and the bold, do you really imagine that 
he'd truly be happy with a  killing curse that just drops his victims where they 
 stand?  Can't you see him wanting to add that extra bit of sadistic  insult 
to the dead?  Yeah, you're dead the second the curse hits you, but  I'm gonna 
throw you to the ground like the piece of trash you are.  
 
I'm guessing that he didn't just AK the Riddles when he showed up at the  big 
house.  They had a look of terror on their faces.  Wanna bet he  played with 
them for a bit, like a cat does a mouse?  A few Crucios,  levitations, 
Imperios, etc.  He scared the heck out of them, then killed  them.
 
In the same vein, I've been thinking that there are probably a lot of ways  
to off someone in the wizarding world.  A Full-Body Bind near a  body of 
water... a well-placed Sectrumsempra (just nail the jugular  with it),  whatever it 
was that Hermione got hit with in the MoM, a  shrinking spell on the collar of 
his robes...I'm sure there's more, but it's  late and I must get to bed 
before I turn into a pumpkin.
 
Trina
 
PS--Did y'all notice that the term "Marauders" for James and Co. made it  
into canon?  
"Maybe the Marauders never knew the room was there," said  Ron.  (Ch 21, p. 
452 US)
 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 05:37:44 2005
From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:37:44 -0000
Subject: Are prodigals allowed?
Message-ID: <dc76j8+qdto@...>

Hello all - don't know if any of you remember me, or if it's really 
kosher to show up after something like 2 years, but I've been lurking 
around again since shortly before HBP was released and gobbling up 
all your wonderful theories and analyses.  Don't have a lot of real 
world Potterphiles to enthuse with, and you guys have always been the 
best, but I was without a working computer at home for awhile and 
kicked some of my obsessive habits as a result.  Looks like I was 
only in remission...

There are tons of things I'd like to ask about/comment on/"me too" 
over, but I rather don't feel I've earned the right, what with just 
showing up again.  I wonder should I request re-admittance to the 
group?  If need be I'll introduce myself again, and if there's 
penance for straying, I don't mind...

Kimberly

PS - just one thing I have to ask, in hopes you kind souls will help 
me out!  Since we know the DADA job really was jinxed after all, and 
we know Dumbledore knew it was, do you think he never bothered to 
mention that to Snape, or do you think Snape kept going for the job 
all these years even knowing it was jinxed, and why would he do 
that?  I imagine we are to assume, since Dumbledore gave Snape the 
job at last, that at least Dumbledore, if not both of them, knew this 
was Snape's last year at Hogwarts.  What that says, as always, I 
don't know.





From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 07:03:20 2005
From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:03:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <dc76j8+qdto@...>
Message-ID: <20050727070320.8575.qmail@...>



--- Kimberly <moongirlk at ...> wrote:

> Hello all - don't know if any of you remember me, or if it's really 
> kosher to show up after something like 2 years, but I've been lurking 
> around again since shortly before HBP was released and gobbling up 
> all your wonderful theories and analyses.  Don't have a lot of real 
> world Potterphiles to enthuse with, and you guys have always been the 
> best, but I was without a working computer at home for awhile and 
> kicked some of my obsessive habits as a result.  Looks like I was 
> only in remission...
> 
> There are tons of things I'd like to ask about/comment on/"me too" 
> over, but I rather don't feel I've earned the right, what with just 
> showing up again.  I wonder should I request re-admittance to the 
> group?  If need be I'll introduce myself again, and if there's 
> penance for straying, I don't mind...
> 
> Kimberly


Kimberly, I always remember you with fondness as the first person ever to send me an offlist note
when I joined HPFGU, so I for one am delighted that you want to join in the fun again.

Welcome back - just don't leave us for so long next time!

Catherine


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 07:07:58 2005
From: neilward at flyingfordanglia.yahoo.invalid (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:07:58 -0000
Subject: Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <dc76j8+qdto@...>
Message-ID: <dc7bse+6k08@...>

Kimberley wrote:

> Hello all - don't know if any of you remember me, or if it's really 
> kosher to show up after something like 2 years ...
 
> There are tons of things I'd like to ask about/comment on/"me too" 
> over, but I rather don't feel I've earned the right, what with just 
> showing up again.  I wonder should I request re-admittance to the 
> group?  If need be I'll introduce myself again, and if there's 
> penance for straying, I don't mind...

Hi Kimberley,

No, we won't mark you as a strayer and make you swallow Nosebleed 
Nougat for your sins.  Once you're a member you can post at any time, 
so please feel free to jump in!

Neil (not the most regular poster either)






From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 08:24:31 2005
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:24:31 -0000
Subject: Snapo and Draco: Where the heck did they run off to....
In-Reply-To: <dc6otd+7t4s@...>
Message-ID: <dc7gbv+k79a@...>

Fran wrote:
> Hey kids!  Need some help here. Am I understanding correctly that 
> Draco, and only Draco should have offed DD? (murder and DD 
> together makes me cry)  That's my take on it, and if so, will he 
> be in trouble with He-who-looks-like-snake?  

Pip!Squeak inventing dialogue:
'Confunded, your Dark Lordiness, obviously confunded. I could see 
that at a glance. Only to be expected with such a powerful wizard as 
Dumbledore. Nonetheless, Draco managed to hold Dumbledore cornered 
on the tower until I arrived...'

Fran:
> If Snape is on the OOTP side, and I 
> believe he is, will he take Draco somewhere safe, maybe picking up 
> Cissy on the way?  Seems to me both may be in deep doo since one 
> did what the other was supposed to do,and there were other DE's  
> who saw Snape do it.  Seems to me DE's probably dont trust each 
> other--each man for himself/herself. Gots ta look good in front of 
> LV, right? I can just hear one of them saying "the kid didn't do 
it, Snape did!" 

Pip!Squeak
Personally, I reckon that will put Snape's LV stock up considerably. 
Thus allowing him to persuade he-who-looks-like-a-snake that Draco 
did succeed in getting DE's into Hogwarts, did succeed in cornering 
DD, did succeed in holding him there until DE help arrived. Not 
Snape's fault if the other DE's who arrived first were so thick they 
couldn't spot Draco had been worked over by Dumbledore so he 
couldn't cast the AK.

So Draco will probably survive.

Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape





From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 10:55:26 2005
From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (Parker Brown Nesbit)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:55:26 -0400
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <dc76j8+qdto@...>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F2168299F81060C8769D9CDD0CC0@...>

Kimberly wrote:

>There are tons of things I'd like to ask about/comment on/"me too"
>over, but I rather don't feel I've earned the right, what with just
>showing up again.  I wonder should I request re-admittance to the
>group?  If need be I'll introduce myself again, and if there's
>penance for straying, I don't mind...
>
>Kimberly

Welcome back!  I'm quite the lurker myself, so no penance required ;)


Parker the quiet





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 12:17:29 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:17:29 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dc6kqg+qaf0@...>
Message-ID: <dc7u0p+cn7i@...>

Magda: 
> What if Regulus changed the locket (or had it changed) with the 
fake 
> one before LV ever took it into the cave? It seems highly unlikely 
> that the liquid protection over the locket had ever been removed 
and 
> replaced. Dumbledore seems to think that it would have taken two 
> wizards to do what Harry and he had done. That would leave me with 
> the suspicion that the undetected locket switch occurred before it 
> was placed in the Pencieve-like-bowl by LV. 
> 


Potioncat:
Yes, we agree, the horcrux wasn't stolen from the cave it was 
switiched "before" placement in the basin; and there was enough time 
for RAB to write a note to put into the fake horcrux. The real 
horcrux was never in the cave. That means that LV didn't put it in 
the basin himself; he would have known the locket was fake. The plan 
must have been for someone else to take the horcrux to the cave and 
put it in the basin.

Now, I would imagine LV has everything ready to go. Once the horcrux 
was put in the basin, the different spells could be "turned on". 
There wasn't any problem getting to the basin, and nothing had to be 
drank. Just go to the middle of the lake, put the horcrux in the 
basin, come out. Turn on the security system. 

So RAB could have been the one to take it and he may even have come 
out alive. Or LV could have been a fan of Pirate stories; once the 
treasure was hidden, the men who hid it were killed. Perhaps as soon 
as the fake horcrux dropped into the basin, the curses were 
activated. In that case, RAB is in the lake.

So I think the switch happened before placement, the real horcrux was 
hidden by RAB before hand. He or she must have had time to go 
somewhere before going to the cave OR he/she gave it to someone 
before going to the cave. This also means RAB must have known what 
the horcrux looked like ahead of time, to have something ready to 
switch.

But at any rate, it seems LV does not yet know about the switch.
Kathy W.





From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 12:18:41 2005
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:18:41 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Are prodigals allowed?
References: <dc76j8+qdto@...>
Message-ID: <00c801c592a5$53c362a0$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

Kimberly:
There are tons of things I'd like to ask about/comment on/"me too" 
over, but I rather don't feel I've earned the right, what with just 
showing up again.

PS - just one thing I have to ask, in hopes you kind souls will help 
me out!  Since we know the DADA job really was jinxed after all, and 
we know Dumbledore knew it was, do you think he never bothered to 
mention that to Snape, or do you think Snape kept going for the job 
all these years even knowing it was jinxed, and why would he do 
that?  I imagine we are to assume, since Dumbledore gave Snape the 
job at last, that at least Dumbledore, if not both of them, knew this 
was Snape's last year at Hogwarts.  What that says, as always, I 
don't know.


SSSusan:
Welcome back, Kimberly... from one who wasn't even around when you left, I'm afraid. ;-)  

As to your question, my inclination is to believe that Snape knew about the jinx on the position.  Maybe not all the particulars (did anyone know the *particulars* of the jinx?), but I think he understood that taking the position meant you'd not be in it long term.  

That said, I think he applied every year either: 
A) as part of a ruse to give the impression (for the DE kids & their parents) that he wanted the position tho mean ol' DD wouldn't let him have it;
or 
B) out of a genuine desire to teach DADA and as a way of showing DD that he was willing to do whatever was necessary, even if it meant his being jinxed or his only being able to perform the job for a year.

Siriusly Snapey Susan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 12:46:19 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:46:19 -0000
Subject: Snapo and Draco: Where the heck did they run off to....
In-Reply-To: <dc7gbv+k79a@...>
Message-ID: <dc7vmr+9v8o@...>

SNIP> 
> Fran:
> > If Snape is on the OOTP side, and I 
> > believe he is, will he take Draco somewhere safe, maybe picking 
up 
> > Cissy on the way?  Seems to me both may be in deep doo since one 
> > did what the other was supposed to do,and there were other DE's  
> > who saw Snape do it.  Seems to me DE's probably dont trust each 
> > other--each man for himself/herself. Gots ta look good in front 
of 
> > LV, right? I can just hear one of them saying "the kid didn't do 
> it, Snape did!" 
> 
> Pip!Squeak
> Personally, I reckon that will put Snape's LV stock up 
considerably. 
> Thus allowing him to persuade he-who-looks-like-a-snake that Draco 
> did succeed in getting DE's into Hogwarts, did succeed in cornering 
> DD, did succeed in holding him there until DE help arrived. Not 
> Snape's fault if the other DE's who arrived first were so thick 
they 
> couldn't spot Draco had been worked over by Dumbledore so he 
> couldn't cast the AK.
> 
> So Draco will probably survive.
> 
> Pip!Squeak
> "Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
> known how to act?" - Severus Snape

I just have a funny feeling that Snake-face will not be pleased that 
Darco did not do in DD. Seems to me that he could have ordered Snape 
to do it, if killing DD was so important. I see this as show me you 
can obey me and carry out my orders perfectly. And why would the 
other DE's who were on the tower before Snape arrived, not AK DD or 
let Greyback have DD as a snack like he started to do...

Regards,
Fran





From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 13:01:03 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:01:03 -0000
Subject: Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <dc76j8+qdto@...>
Message-ID: <dc80if+e9gl@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> 
wrote:
> Hello all - don't know if any of you remember me, or if it's really 
> kosher to show up after something like 2 years, but I've been 
lurking 
> around again since shortly before HBP was released and gobbling up 
> all your wonderful theories and analyses.  Don't have a lot of real 
> world Potterphiles to enthuse with, and you guys have always been 
the 
> best, but I was without a working computer at home for awhile and 
> kicked some of my obsessive habits as a result.  Looks like I was 
> only in remission...
> 
Snip> 
> Kimberly
> 
> PS - just one thing I have to ask, in hopes you kind souls will 
help 
> me out!  Since we know the DADA job really was jinxed after all, 
and 
> we know Dumbledore knew it was, do you think he never bothered to 
> mention that to Snape, or do you think Snape kept going for the job 
> all these years even knowing it was jinxed, and why would he do 
> that?  I imagine we are to assume, since Dumbledore gave Snape the 
> job at last, that at least Dumbledore, if not both of them, knew 
this 
> was Snape's last year at Hogwarts.  What that says, as always, I 
> don't know.

Greetings!  I lurk alot myself as the posters in this group are much 
more eloquent than moi, and  ususally have alot of I agree/me too! 
reponses. Of course with the new book, I do have some thoughts and 
theories to bounce off the group.

I have wondered after this book,if Snape knew the job was jinxed and 
thought he could break the jinx. Since LV jinxed it or it is thought 
he jinxed it, maybe Snape thought he could get the counter-jinx from 
LV.

Regards,
Fran





From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 13:49:08 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:49:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snapo and Draco: Where the heck did they run off to....
In-Reply-To: <dc7gbv+k79a@...>
Message-ID: <20050727134908.44126.qmail@...>

 
> Pip!Squeak
> Personally, I reckon that will put Snape's LV stock up
> considerably. 
> Thus allowing him to persuade he-who-looks-like-a-snake that Draco 
> did succeed in getting DE's into Hogwarts, did succeed in cornering
> DD, did succeed in holding him there until DE help arrived. Not 
> Snape's fault if the other DE's who arrived first were so thick
> they 
> couldn't spot Draco had been worked over by Dumbledore so he 
> couldn't cast the AK.
> 
> So Draco will probably survive.


I don't think Voldemort ever seriously expected Draco to kill
Dumbledore.  It was pure sadistic, drawn-out, mental torture before
killing Lucius, Narcissa and Draco who would be "punished" for
Draco's failure (classic blame-the-victim-for-his-own-fate stuff).

That Dumbledore is actually dead and by the hand of a man who
VOldemort might have still had doubts about can only make him happy. 
Hopefully he will then trust Snape more and more and give him
increased responsibility so that when the time comes Snape can
undermine from within at the climax of Book 7.  Especially since
Voldemort feels he can dispense with Lucius - a real plot surprise
for me in HBP.

Magda


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From ameliagoldfeesh at ameliagoldfeesh.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 15:52:35 2005
From: ameliagoldfeesh at ameliagoldfeesh.yahoo.invalid (ameliagoldfeesh)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:52:35 -0000
Subject: Leapin' Inferi
Message-ID: <dc8ak3+ujip@...>

Since everyone's been talking about RAB and the locket...
On another forum (Isca BBS) I saw an interesting theory/idea.  The 
poster's, Evie, brother noted that when Harry tried "Accio Horcrux"
an inferi jumped out of the water.  Why would using that spell cause 
one of to jump? Also, why only one?  As the brother said, "if the 
horcrux wasn't there.. nothing would've happened when he tried to 
summon it."

A Goldfeesh  (with help from Tom Petty)

Somewhere beyond the pavement, you'll find the living dead
Dancin at the Zombie Zoo
Dancin at the Zombie Zoo
Painted in a corner and all you wanna do is
Dance down at the Zombie Zoo






From SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 19:40:11 2005
From: SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid (songbird3411)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:40:11 -0000
Subject: Voldy and his DE's (Was Snape & Draco:...)
In-Reply-To: <20050727134908.44126.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dc8nur+5n4g@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich 
<mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
>> Hopefully he will then trust Snape more and more and give him 
increased responsibility so that when the time comes Snape can 
undermine from within at the climax of Book 7.  Especially since 
Voldemort feels he can dispense with Lucius - a real plot surprise 
for me in HBP.<<

Mindy:

You know, this bit about Lucius was one of the most pleasant 
surprises in the book to me.  I was absurdly pleased that Voldy seems 
to be punishing his DE's for their mistakes and incompetence.  Not 
just flunky DE's either.  DE's like Lucius and Bella.  Maybe we can 
make an Evil Overlord out of him yet.

So, two scary DE's out of favor with Voldy.  Not to mention the 
assorted others who were caught at the Ministry.  One can't help but 
notice that the fiasco at the Ministry that caused Voldy's 
displeasure with them was caused by Snape.

Yes, I too have come to the conclusion that one of Snape's missions 
for Dumbledore is to try to dismantle the DE's from within.  
Manipulate them into failing situations which will cause Voldemort to 
cast them out, cause dissention in the ranks.  The higher rank he 
has, the more control over the organization he will have.  Perhaps 
part of the reason Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him.  It will gain 
him tremendous credibility among the DE's, not to mention Voldemort.

One more point about Lucius.  I wonder if Dumbledore knew what he was 
talking about when he offered protection to the entire Malfoy 
family.  Two books ago, I would have thought the idea of the Malfoy 
family defecting was insane.  Now, I am not so sure.  Clearly, Draco 
doesn't have what it takes to be a DE.  Somehow or another Snape is 
going to save him from Voldy.  Narcissa certainly doesn't seem to be 
a staunch believer in the DE Manifesto.  Snape was right, she was 
commiting treason by asking for his help.  She would defy the Dark 
Lord to protect her son.  Then, we have Lucius.  Dear Lucius.  I 
imagine he is probably doing some serious reconsideration of his 
chosen path.  Being protected by the Order of the Phoenix might not 
sound so bad after all.  

Indeed, I wonder if JKR is setting up a redemption/defection of the 
whole family.  Two familes even, Black and Malfoy.  Sirius already 
rejected the idea.  Regulus tried to back out.  Draco wimped out.  
Narcissa defied orders.  Lucius is the question mark for me.  But, it 
would be just ironic enough that families with the names Malfoy and 
Black would end up on the side of good.  I exclude Bellatrix, of 
course.  I don't believe she will survive Book 7, and I think she is 
too crazy to ever come back.  Still, if anyone had told me two years 
ago that I would be considering the redemption and/or defection of 
the Black/Malfoy family, I wouldn't have believed it.  How times 
change.

Mindy






From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 21:35:23 2005
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:35:23 -0000
Subject: Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <dc76j8+qdto@...>
Message-ID: <dc8umr+e1ci@...>

Kimberly wrote:

> Hello all - don't know if any of you remember me, or if it's really 
> kosher to show up after something like 2 years, but I've been 
lurking 
> around again since shortly before HBP was released and gobbling up 
> all your wonderful theories and analyses.

Hi, Kimberly!  Yes, I remember you!  Welcome back!

> If need be I'll introduce myself again, and if there's 
> penance for straying, I don't mind...

Well, if you're offering...

David






From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 22:28:44 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:28:44 -0000
Subject: More Snapesupport
Message-ID: <dc91qs+a554@...>

I very much doubt that we still need spoiler space, but in case we 
do, the following two paragraphs will suffice. 

I just finished the book last night. Yes, I realize this will put my 
fan credentials into question, but I was using the book to force 
myself to work on the book that I'm writing. When I got writing done, 
I let myself read a little bit.  How did I stop myself from reading 
ahead? I got my husband to take off the binding, divide the book into 
signatures, and hide the ones I hadn't "earned" yet. 

I really wish I could have been done earlier. There are so many great 
posts here!  I don't know if I'll ever catch up & mention all the 
ones I really liked.  Also, some of those spoiler space thingies were 
great!

Ok, warning, now MY spoilers start.  (Although I can't imagine anyone 
coming here until they finished the book -- I certainly didn't)

In some ways, I liked reading the book bit-by-bit, since it gave me 
time to generate theories, and then test them with the "new canon" in 
the next sections. (The thing I really didn't like was knowing that I 
was missing out on the discussion here!)  There were some things I 
figured out (the HBP was Snape, if not a new character; Draco's task 
was to kill Dumbledore) but other things thatI completely missed 
despite my slow reading (like the possibility of Polyjuiced!Tonks.)  

The book had so much Snape!  He even made it into the title. As a 
huge Snapefan, I was thrilled with that.  But, I was quite upset at 
Dumbledore's death, even though I was very much expecting it.  The 
portrayals of grief, especially Harry and Hagrid's, really got me. 

As a huge Snapefan, of *course* I believe that Snape was acting on 
Dumbledore's orders. I don't believe that Dumbledore was suffering 
and his death was a mercy killing. Instead, I believe that either 
Snape or Dumbledore had to die due to Snape's Unbreakable Vow, and 
Dumbledore decided to save Snape instead of himself.  I favor the 
theory that Dumbledore was reaching the end of his life anyway, 
perhaps hastened along by the injury from the ring Horcrux. I also 
favor the theory that Snape was given the DADA job because Dumbledore 
knew about the Unbreakable Vow; one way or the other, Snape would be 
gone from Hogwarts at the end of the year.  

There are lots of good arguments supporting the idea that Dumbledore 
asked Snape to kill him.  But, I've come up with one that I think 
hasn't been mentioned yet. 

In the Spinner's End chapter, Bellatrix & Narcissa get Snape to 
explain away many of his pro-Dumbledore actions. However, they don't 
know that at the end of OoP, it was Snape who notified the Order that 
Harry had been lured to the Ministry of Magic. I think Snape would 
have had a hard time explaining that away, had Bellatrix & Narcissa 
known about it.  Really, if Snape was on Voldemort's side, what 
possible reason did he have for notifying the Order that Harry was in 
danger?  Snape could have pretended to Dumbledore that he didn't know 
what Harry had meant when he gave Snape his cryptic warning 
about "Padfoot at the place where it's kept."  Snape could even had 
contacted Sirius, found that he was fine, and then let the whole 
thing drop.  Instead, he sent the Order to ruin a plan Voldemort had 
spent the whole year on. 

Remembering that Snape had sent the Order to rescue Harry in OoP, I 
was convinced that he was on Dumbledore's side.  My belief never 
wavered anytime during HBP -- although it was still very hard to see 
Snape kill Dumbledore.

One more point, although this one is minor.  When Hagrid talks about 
the argument between Snape and Dumbledore (pp. 405-406 in the US 
edition), he says, "Dumebledore told him flat out that he'd agreed 
ter do it an' that was all there was to it."  Most people probably 
took that as meaning Snape had agreed to some request of Dumbledore, 
and Dumbledore was holding him to it. But it could also mean that 
Dumbledore knew of Snape's Unbreakable Vow, and the line, "that was 
all there was to it" could quite literally mean that there was no way 
out of the Vow. 

-- Snapefan!Judy 







From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jul 27 23:01:31 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:01:31 -0000
Subject: I think Ewww is so trewww
In-Reply-To: <dbj333+n1vl@...>
Message-ID: <dc93ob+4pcb@...>

D
O
W
E
R
E
A
L
L
Y
N
E
E
D
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
?

One of the things I liked most about HBP was the support it gave for 
LOLLIPOPS, and specifically for the theory called Tewww ewww to be 
trewww.

I must confess that this theory grosses me out, although (can I take 
credit here?) I invented it. 

Quoting Fantastic Posts & Where to Find Them 
(http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/snape.html), "Judy (HPfGU post #34857) 
then adds her own theory, hereafter known as EEWWWW, that Voldemort 
might have promised Lily to Snape as a trophy after the male Potters 
were killed. Then Snape was disgusted and plotted to try to save them 
instead...."  

I didn't come up with the name, however.  I believe it 
was Tabouli, Captain of the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS, who refered to 
objections to Snape's love for Lily as the "ewww" factor. 

One piece of support for Ewww, or at least LOLLIPOPS, is that Snape 
it was NOT just plain old remorse for telling Voldemort the prophecy 
that made Snape return.  On page 549, Harry asks how Dumbledore can 
really be sure of Snape's loyalty, and Dumbeldore looks "as though he 
was trying to make up his mind about something" before simply 
repeating that he is sure.

Obviously, he has more evidence, which he decides not to give Harry. 
What is that evidence?  I assume something Snape would REALLY not 
want Harry to know -- like maybe Snape's unrequited love for Lily.


Pippin offers a different reason for Dumbeldore's silence:
> I think Dumbledore withheld the proof of Snape's
> repentance because it *was* proof. It would leave
> absolutely no doubt in Harry's mind -- or
> Voldemort's-- that Snape was faithful.
> As Harry is no Occlumens and never will be, that
> would be very bad news for Snape.

True, that is another possibility.  But Dumbledore doesn't tell his 
reason for believing Snape to *anyone*, not even Minerva, who 
presumably is better at Occlumens than Harry. 

Pippin also says:
> There is only one guaranteed proof of loyalty. Snape
> must have summoned Fawkes. As Dumbledore
> says in CoS, only someone who showed him
> real loyalty could do that. And notice how Fawkes
> sang out in HPB when Harry pledged his loyalty
> to Dumbledore again.

Oh, I hope not.  True, that would be proof, but I wanted something 
that gave us more insight into Snape. Fawkes might be able to prove 
that Snape was loyal, but he couldn't tell us *why* Snape had 
returned.

Also, if the reason was Fawkes, I think Dumbledore would just tell 
Harry.  Even if Voldemort found out, Snape could just tell Voldemort 
that he found a way to fool Fawkes.  Voldemort has no real concept of 
loyalty, and has always understimated Fawkes. "Phoenix tears, I 
forgot." 

By the way, although it would be nice if my theory were right, I must 
confess that there is support for another, later, version of Ewww, in 
which Pettigrew is the guy who wanted Lily.  After Ewww first 
surfaced on HPfGU, someone (I forgot whom) pointed out 
that "Wormtail" is a similar name to LoTR's "Wormtongue." Grima 
Wormtongue was hoping to get a woman as his reward in LoTR, and 
perhaps JKR is referring to this with the name "Wormtail." (On the 
other hand, maybe my theory will hold and she just thinks rats' tails 
are gross.)

-- Snape-even-if-its-Ewww!Fan Judy





From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 00:11:35 2005
From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:11:35 -0000
Subject: Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <00c801c592a5$53c362a0$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>
Message-ID: <dc97rn+70go@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "susiequsie23" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> Welcome back, Kimberly... from one who wasn't even around when you 
left, I'm afraid. ;-)  

Thanks to all for being so welcoming!  You guys really are the best. 
For those of you who don't know me, a little intro:

I'm Kimberly Moon.  Was Moony to most throughout grade school.  When 
using my name I go with kimberly rather than kim in order to avoid 
having to explain that I'm not a Korean boy.
I'm from St. Louis, MO.  Have lived in elsewhere now and then, but 
this has always been home, more or less.  I'm 34, a frustrated (due 
to lack of funds) travel junkie, a treasure hunter and a flake. Also 
a Christian with suspicions that the religious right were issued 
different Bibles than mine.  

As for anything that might make me actually relevant to you guys, I'm 
the one who introduced Faith a few years back.  I've always assumed 
R/H and H/G, and while I can't remember clearly, it's possible that 
OBHWF was coined in response to one of my posts.  I feel much better 
about it now, as at the time I think I was considered pretty naive.

Susan:
> As to your question, my inclination is to believe that Snape knew 
about the jinx on the position.  Maybe not all the particulars (did 
anyone know the *particulars* of the jinx?), but I think he 
understood that taking the position meant you'd not be in it long 
term.  

> That said, I think he applied every year either: 
> A) as part of a ruse to give the impression (for the DE kids & 
their parents) that he wanted the position tho mean ol' DD wouldn't 
let him have it;
> or 
> B) out of a genuine desire to teach DADA and as a way of showing DD 
that he was willing to do whatever was necessary, even if it meant 
his being jinxed or his only being able to perform the job for a year.

I think if he did know, it must have been A, but we do know 
Dumbledore has a tendency to keep things to himself.  It's probably 
completely irrelevant to anything big and plotty, but that was the 
thing that popped into my head when we learned it was jinxed after 
all.

It actually makes me look back at all the DADA appointments over the 
years:
Quirrel:
I'm still confused about Quirrel since PS/SS made it seem like he had 
taught a year previously, but maybe it's only jinxed so the same 
person can't have it two years *in a row*?  The sabbatical would make 
sense then.  Wish Harry had asked Fred and George who taught the year 
before he got there.

Lockhart:
I can't believe Dumbledore didn't know he was a fraud to begin with, 
but maybe DD couldn't find anybody else and since he knew he'd only 
last a year it was  better than nothing?  I can see DD thinking it 
would be good for the kids to have to survive his lessons.

Lupin:
I'd like to think he told him about the jinx.  I think Remus would 
have taken the job in spite of it - even knowing it would only be one 
year, he'd want to go back to the school where he'd had friends and 
acceptance.

Not!Moody:
No doubt in my mind that when Moody took the job wouldn't have cared 
about the jinx.  He's too crotchety to be bothered by that sort of 
thing.  Too bad he didn't even make a day, much less a year - I think 
he'd have rocked it.  Since it wasn't really him, you'd think he 
could do it again though, but I guess by the end of GoF the Order 
needed him more than Hogwarts did.  In fact, I think that must be 
true of all of DD's possible picks for the job, which is why he 
couldn't find one for the next year, and they ended up with...

Umbridge:
Only regret I have with her being jinxed is that the centaurs didn't 
feed her to the acromantulas.

Anyway, how many of them do you think knew about the jinx?

Kimberly





From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 05:48:55 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:48:55 -0000
Subject: Hermione's O.W.L.s
In-Reply-To: <dbgmrf+hms5@...>
Message-ID: <dc9rk7+1028g@...>

Just a few points from the hundreds of posts I've read in the past 24 
hours:

On the topic of why Hermione got only 11 O.W.L.s, Rita said:
> > In any case, I don't understand how Hermione only got 11 OWLs when
> > Bill and Percy got 12. She has been established as an unusually
> > outstanding student that doesn't come along as often as every 4 
> > years.

Amy replied:
> I wondered the same.  Maybe Percy and Bill took a subject that is 
> no longer offered.  Or maybe it's JKR's notorious innumeracy again.

I assumed that Bill and Percy (and Barty Crouch, Jr.) took the 
Divination O.W.L., but Hermione refused to because she had utter 
contempt for the subject.  I'm assuming she could sit an exam even if 
she hadn't taken the class, and that that is how she got her 11th 
O.W.L. -- she took the Muggle Studies test even thought she had 
dropped the course.  In the career advice chapter in OoP, Hermione 
mentions an interest in going into Muggle Relations, which requires 
the Muggle Studies O.W.L.

I find myself wishing the U.S. had a test system, rather than the 
current matriculation system.  Anyone other Americans agree with me?

Catchingup!Judy







From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 05:51:56 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:51:56 -0000
Subject: HBP Spoilers - - ESE! Flitwick
In-Reply-To: <dbj5fv+r45l@...>
Message-ID: <dc9rps+imvt@...>

entropymail wrote:
> Hi there, all. Posted this one on the main board, but it's just so
> swamped over there...
> 
> Anyway, I sure would like some help with this one. If you could give
> me some reaction, some help in proving/disproving the idea, it would
> be much appreciated. Here's how it goes:
> 
> We think that the scene in which Flitwick runs down to rouse Snape 
> is quite suspicious. Snape could have been alerted in many other 
> ways, such as the Order's patronus method. But JKR chose to have 
> Flitwick alert Snape and, more importantly, to have Hermione and
> Luna witness
> him enter and exit the room but *not* witness what actually happened
> while he was in there. Their testimony of what happened is only what
> they could gather from listening in....

I'm fairly certain Flitwick is *not* in the Order, and therefore 
could not have used the Patronus method to alert Snape. Not only is 
he never mentioned as being in the Order, but in OoP, when 
Dumbledore, Hagrid, and Minerva are gone from Hogwarts, Harry thinks 
none of the Order is left, and then remembers that Snape is the last 
Order member left. 

Of course, *why* Flitwick isn't in the Order is itself an interesting 
question.....

-- Judy





From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 06:23:45 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:23:45 -0000
Subject: Those dam Hordevours!
In-Reply-To: <dbkmdu+aapo@...>
Message-ID: <dc9tlh+m7dc@...>

Snow suggested a possible "Hordevours" (great name!):

> Riddle's special-services-to-the-
> school-award. 
> ...Riddle used items that did not belong to him but he took some 
> pride in. Riddle did not deserve to be honored by a school award 
> for the fake capture of Hagrid killing Moaning Myrtle. 

Very clever idea!  However, I'm not sure Riddle made two while at 
school, and he may have felt that the award would be too hard for him 
to get to, if he needed to move it or something. On the other hand, 
he may have applied to be the DADA teacher because he wanted to be 
near the award, which he either wanted to make into a horcrux, or 
already had.

> You need to kill to split the soul. One killing for each split of  
> the soul. Tom killed his father and grandparents; that would be 
> three killings and three possible Horcrux's. In Slughorn's get 
> together in the Pencieve where Tom asks him about Horcrux's, Tom 
> already has the Slytherin ring on his hand which Harry is clear to 
> already done the dirty deed. We know that the ring was a Horcrux 
> notice that he had (that's one killing of the three he murdered)
> the diary (that's two) so what better than the special-award-to-the-
> school to be the third? 

This assumes one can "save up" the soul fragments from a murder and 
use them later, which I doubt.  I suspect that horcrux must be made 
at or immemdiately after the time of the murder.

Snow also suggests that Voldemort would store a Horcrux at Gringotts.

Ah!  If he did that, he would actually be following advice to Evil 
Overlords, rule #5: "The artifact which is the source of my power 
will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire 
guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit 
box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness."  (see 
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)  Knowing Voldie, 
that would make too much sense, though.

-- Judy





From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 09:24:54 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:24:54 -0000
Subject: Those dam Hordevours!
In-Reply-To: <dc9tlh+m7dc@...>
Message-ID: <dca896+8ijh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at j...> wrote:
> Snow suggested a possible "Hordevours" (great name!):
> 
> > Riddle's special-services-to-the-
> > school-award. 
> > ...Riddle used items that did not belong to him but he took some 
> > pride in. Riddle did not deserve to be honored by a school award 
> > for the fake capture of Hagrid killing Moaning Myrtle. 
> 
> Very clever idea!  
> 
> This assumes one can "save up" the soul fragments from a murder 
and 
> use them later, which I doubt.  I suspect that horcrux must be 
made 
> at or immemdiately after the time of the murder.
> 
> 
> -- Judy

I'm curious why do you doubt this?

The way I see it is that we are told murder tears the soul, but not 
that the remnant promptly exits stage left. Why would it?  DD 
indicates that there is a primary bit of soul, the one still with 
Voldy, that appears to anchor all the others. 

A rip caused by murder would, I imagine, remain entire unless the 
individual attempted to heal it (remorse, reparation etc). Creating 
a HRX, to me, implies removing the off cut and depositing it 
elsewhere, something that can be done any time or place, subsequent 
to the death, that you choose.

I'd like to know how you see it, it has big implications for all our 
theories!! ;)

Regards
Jo






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 09:28:44 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:28:44 -0000
Subject: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dc7u0p+cn7i@...>
Message-ID: <dca8gc+2f1b@...>

Carolyn in message 2552: 
>Firstly, as has already been pointed out I think, Voldemort doesn't
>seem to know his locket is missing, so he has no big reason to kill
>Regulus apart from Reg wimping out of being a DE. 

Talisman:
This must be a misunderstanding, because it's never been my 
contention that LV knew/knows anything about the Hx theft. 

No, Voldemort doesn't know the locket is missing.  Reg was not axed 
for taking the locket, he was axed for leaving the DEs, as we were 
told in OoP.  

But, yes, leaving the DEs would be LV's "big reason" for having Reg 
killed.  It's a standard item on the murders-to-do list: execute 
disgruntled minions.

DEs know that the only way out of Voldemort's service is feet 
first.  Having already left LV's service, or being about to do so, 
Reg took the Hx at a time when he already knew he was going to be 
executed, therefore the reference in the note.

Carolyn in message 2605:
>A further interesting footnote is that Regulus is described as dying
>15 years previous to when Harry first sees the tapestry. That's 
1980,
>the year Harry was born. If Regulus did take the locket, what was 
the
>trigger for him attempting it at that particular time? 

Talisman: What was the trigger for him leaving the DEs? We don't 
know yet, but we certainly know there was one.  I think we'll agree 
that Regulus 1) did indeed decide to leave the DEs;  and, 2) was in 
fact killed, on Voldemort's orders, for leaving.  

Since we know the two textual facts above, it's not hard to see why 
someone who 1) has decided to leave the DEs, for whatever highly 
motivating reason;  2) knows LV will have them killed for doing so; 
and, 3) knows what Hxes are and where to find one, would decide, as 
a last act, to attempt to destroy it.

Carolyn in message 2605:
>Talisman thought he did it with Kreacher, but how could the elf 
rationalise his >involvement, even if strong enough to be an 
accomplice? 

Talisman:
I don't perceive House Elves as having anything to rationalize, they 
are slaves and, so long as a family member is giving orders, they 
are bound to obey. 

Carolyn in message 2605:
>It would also mean Kreacher made Regulus drink the poison...

Talisman: Absolutely.  A lot easier to believe than Harry making DD 
drink gop, don't you think?

Carolyn in message 2605 :
>I still prefer my idea that it could have been Regulus' father, who
>thought Voldemort had started to go to far, and wanted to give his
>son a way out by helping him with his revenge. 

Talisman: Striking a blow at LV was the point. There's an aspect of 
revenge in the mix no matter who R.A.B. turns out to be. 

However, if Papa Black was snuffed by LV, especially in context with 
Regulus's defection, one would think Sirius would have mentioned it 
when he was pointing out the consequences of his family's folly 
during the review of the tapestry in OoP.  Sirius doesn't mention 
the cause of his father's death or any connection between that and 
LV or Regulus. He does point out that his parents weren't DEs. (OoP 
112)

Carolyn in message 2605 :
>...anyone else catch the fact that Merope, Morfin and Marvolo are 
all MG?

Talisman: 
It does make it hard to sort out the monogrammed hankies. :)   

While there are any number of  alternate theories, my preference for 
Reg springs from what I consider the greatest weight of the 
evidence. I just don't think the possibility of other relatives with 
matching initials is as strong as the evidence for Reg.  

Maybe it would be a bit stronger if Sirius had an "R" for a first 
initial, but he doesn't.  That doesn't mean Papa Black can't have 
an "R" name, but it indicates that the Blacks weren't following the 
same naming logic as the Gaunts. 

Potioncat in message 2616 
>So I think the switch happened before placement, the real horcrux 
was
>hidden by RAB before hand. He or she must have had time to go
>somewhere before going to the cave OR he/she gave it to someone
>before going to the cave. This also means RAB must have known what
>the horcrux looked like ahead of time, to have something ready to
>switch.

Talisman:
A very imaginative theory. However, I agree with Jen. I'm 
uncomfortable with the idea that LV would allow anyone else to carry 
the Hx around, let alone rely on them to put it safely in the gop.  

Jen Reese message 2599 
>It's just so....obvious, you know? That the
>mystery would be wrapped up so succintly and neatly from the text,
>with every clue readily available. 

Talisman: It does seem obvious to me, but obviously it's not obvious 
to everyone! : )

In Book 7 Harry has 4 Hxes plus LV to handle.  We also need the 
Dursleys to get their due, we are supposed to find out why Sirius 
and Snape loathed each other, we have to have the Harry/Snape 
showdown, find out about Snape's big secrets, learn what happened at 
Godric's Hollow, and heaven knows what else, not to mention a little 
bit of happy ending that isn`t relegated to the epilogue.  

Rowling has indicated that Harry isn't aware of everything he'll 
need to do.  And what about Nagini? You're not going to off that 
snake without LV getting wise.  And, once you've allowed him to see 
a Hx destroyed, you'd better be able to zap him before he starts 
making more.  There is a lot of tricky stuff to deal with in 7--
especially if Rowling doesn't want another book as long as OoP.

I think we need to expect that a certain number of things are going 
to fall into place with extant text.  Regulus is great for doing 
that.  

There is just no way the locket Hx isn't going to turn out to be 
the "heavy locket that none of them could open" that Harry & Co. 
find when they are cleaning cabinets at GP. (OoP 116)

The cleaning crew tossed it into the sack they were filling with 
debris, so Kreature will have had to have snagged it, and it will be 
in his little nest.

Magda Grantwich Message 2594
>And if Regulus was RAB it won't be because he's important to the 
plot
>but rather because it ties into a few other plot points that are
>hanging loose at the moment:
>1. Harry inheriting 12GP and everything in it.
>2. Harry inheriting Kreacher.
>3. Kreacher being close at hand at Hogwarts and having to obey 
Harry.
>4. Mundungus Fletcher being caught stealing loot from 12GP.
Regulus was RAB. I'm betting on it.

Talisman: 
That's the thinking behind my original post, except the only reason 
Mundungus' stealing figures in is that it may remind readers of all 
the interesting stuff at GP.  Do you have another reason?

moosemingMessage 2566
>I'm intrigued as to why, in the interview, JKR is so specific about
>Voldy *not* being the one to kill Reg. Does this mean that who did
>kill him (Snape?) or what (potion?) is significant?

Talisman:
I really think that's just because Amanda misspoke and JKR 
recognized it.  If Rowling had simply agreed, she would have been 
pounced upon by readers who have a better grasp of the facts than 
her interviewer did.

Carolyn message 2552: 
>What I just don't get is why anyone thinks Regulus is up to
>retrieving the locket in the first place, and re-creating/inventing 
a
>very complex potion, then leaving everything shipshape and tidy so 
no
>one notices he's been there.

Talisman:
I don't think we need to devise the story of how everything 
happened, I'm confident that JKR can manage that. Nonetheless, I'll 
hazard my own version--which is not actually necessary to RAB being 
Regulus-- it's just a "for instance."

Perhaps LV wanted an assistant when he set up the locket Hx site--or 
was back doing some maintenance. 

Regulus, as both an underage wizard and a DE would be ideal.  Like 
Harry, he could ride along with LV without having to fuss around 
with the Inferi (I know they work for LV, but that doesn't mean they 
don't take any effort).  Additionally, LV might have considered a 
young DE less of a security risk.  Easier to frighten, less likely 
to try anything, um, shall we say, "ambitious."

But, as you've suggested, maybe the whole project is what turned him 
against LV: the necessary murder; the ingredients/method for 
creating the gop; the staffing of the Inferi guards, etc. who knows 
how many atrocities were involved. Maybe Reg's defection/locket-swap 
plan was put together even while he assisted LV in the locket 
security project. 

So LV takes Reg with him on this Hx errand.  Regulus gets the lay of 
the land and knows how to get into the gop--perhaps even without 
drinking it.  (I'm very sure LV doesn't have to drink gop to get his 
Hx out.)  Reg may have known this other way to get at the locket--
perhaps he had a sort of security clearance--or, maybe the recipe 
called for a splash of blood or something that Reg contributed, 
giving him handling rights. Who knows.

Alternatively, Reg could simply have had access to the area where LV 
whipped up the goop, and, just as we saw Draco swipe some polyjuice, 
Regulus could have siphoned off a few quarts of limeade for later 
use.  Then LV took him along as an assistant to set up the basin 
etc., etc.

Later Regulus comes back with Kreature, drinks the stuff in the 
basin, switches lockets, and fills it back up with his poached 
potion (or rather, has Kreature do everything necessary after he 
drinks the gop).

Rowling can make up any scenario she likes.  But at least with Reg, 
she's got less to make up than if she goes for a character whose 
story doesn't yet place them as a defecting DE with the right 
initials, access to both the cave and the place the locket ended up 
(GP), not to mention a certain informative elf.


Carolyn cont.:
>Secondly, JKR herself draws a parallel with Draco, and this seems
>obvious to me too. Draco wasn't up to the job at 16, and it seems
>startlingly unlikely that a 16-17 year old Regulus was either. Think
>about it. For almost the entire series we have had dinned into our
>heads that only Voldemort and Harry have had skills that come close
>to DD's, and it wiped DD out dealing with the potion and the Inferi.

Talisman:
As an aside, I'm not sure Harry's skills do compare with DD's.

Back to the point, Regulus would have been executed for leaving the 
DE's a short time after completing the switcheroo, and there is no 
reason to believe he wasn't in a sickened condition when they caught 
up with him. So, it's not like he skipped away.

More importantly, Regulus had inside knowledge.  Couple that with 
Kreature's help, and the fact that he died shortly thereafter.  It's 
not so hard to believe. 

Moreover, one of JKR's philosophical points is that kids are more 
capable than they are given credit for being.  

Also there's Rowling's reversed symmetry pattern: Regulus was up to 
the job, which was defying LV; Draco wasn`t up to his job, which was 
obeying the DL.

Carolyn:
>Thirdly, the person who did do it could only have found the cave if
>they knew something of young Tom Riddle's past, and as DD has 
pointed
>out, very, very few people do. I could accept that they took Regulus
>along as an underage assistant, and possibly made him drink the
>potion and that's why he both ran away and subsequently died, but 
not
>that he organised the expedition.

Talisman:
As above, or in some variation, I think Regulus got his info on the 
cave from LV.  I think this is much more plausible than having JKR 
unravel a back story in Book 7 wherein a nonDE (like Papa Black) 
knew LV was TR, found the orphanage, tracked down the "outing" 
information from Mrs. Cole, etc., knew about the Hxes, put 16 and 28 
together and came up with the cave location, and then overcame all 
the magical security with no inside help.  Even DD had inside scoop.

On the other hand, if Regulus visited the cave with LV, as a little 
DE assistant, he'd have seen how everything worked, with no need for 
knowing TR's life story.  When he went back later with Kreature, he 
would, indeed, have been the organizer.

Snow in message 2547
>Those little darlings (toe-rags) are there for more than just
>Hermione's activist-supporter-red-herrings-of-injustice. Kreacher,
>the one we all want to loathe, could be greater than we have yet 
>seen him to be. Neigh unwillingly.

Talisman: 
Yep, and Harry's got some lessons to learn that fit in nicely.  
Our "pure-hearted" little hero has a real weakness for spite.  

Whether it's the advice from Cedric, or doing anything Snape asks 
him, etc., Harry will cut off his nose to spite a character with 
whom he has issues.  He loathes Kreature, but, under this theory,  
he will need Kreature to complete his mission.

That's just a warm up for his ultimate need for Snape, and it's a 
lesson JKR is going to have to show him learning.  Realizing he has 
to work with Kreature, and getting over it, offers a good way for 
Harry to cut some more maturity teeth. 

As I mentioned in the original message, Kreature may have lots of 
good information.  If LV did some boasting, etc. to Reg, Kreature 
may be able to give Harry clues to finding another Hx, as well as 
various bits of info on the Malfoys, other DEs, or LV.  He's a 
grubby little gold-mine.

Snow in message 2607 :
>They didn't find his body did they? It's in the lake with the other
>Inferi.

Talisman:
Hmm. Interesting detail, but I don't recall reading that they didn't 
find his body.  The tapestry does list a date of death, how would 
the family know he was gone if he just stopped dropping by? It'd be 
more MIA than dead, wouldn't it?

ameliagoldfeesh in message 2621:
The poster's, Evie, brother noted that when Harry tried "Accio 
Horcrux"
an inferi jumped out of the water. Why would using that spell cause
one of to jump? Also, why only one? As the brother said, "if the
horcrux wasn't there.. nothing would've happened when he tried to
summon it."

Talisman:
I think it was simply the fact that a summoning charm was used that 
roused the Inferius.  

One of the protections LV set up was that if someone came in and 
started summoning things the prune-fingered ones would get up and 
see about it. I think they would have been roused if Harry had 
said, "Accio thingy-with-the-green-light!"

While it's true that the summoning charm didn't bring the fake Hx to 
Harry, it probably wouldn't have brought the real one, either--
thanks to LV's protective spells.

Nonetheless, it did tell the soggy watchman that someone was inside 
and trying to get stuff via magic.

Why did only one jump up? Why did it lay back down?  Meta reasons, I 
suspect. The world may never know.

Talisman saying, at some point it's moot whether Regulus or Papa 
made the switch. I'm still backing Regulus, but the more important 
point is that the locket is at GP, and Kreature knows more bout it.

P.S.
Neil: In spite of that fact that you run with a very rough crowd and 
allow them to talk you into all manner of villainy, don't think I 
didn't notice how nice you were not to bust my chops when I 
transposed your vowels. 

If you ever need it, I'll be happy to write a letter to the parole 
board on your behalf.








From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 09:40:26 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:40:26 -0000
Subject: Those dam[n] Hordevours!
In-Reply-To: <dc9tlh+m7dc@...>
Message-ID: <dca96a+e0m9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at j...> wrote:
>Judy: [re TR service award as Hx] 
> Very clever idea!  However, I'm not sure Riddle made two while at 
> school, and he may have felt that the award would be too hard for 
him to get to, if he needed to move it or something. On the other 
hand, he may have applied to be the DADA teacher because he wanted to 
be near the award, which he either wanted to make into a horcrux, or 
already had.
<snip>
> This assumes one can "save up" the soul fragments from a murder and  
use them later, which I doubt. 

Talisman:
I don't know if you've seen my post 2435.  It explains how I believe 
what now resides at Hogwarts in the guise of the TR Trophy is the 
Hufflepuff Cup.  Tom obtained the Hufflepuff Cup after leaving school 
and he could have turned it into a Hx using any of the murders he 
indulged in, thereafter.






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 10:13:45 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:13:45 +0100
Subject: Peter
Message-ID: <D709740F-3F1B-401E-A66C-D7C045992D7B@...>

Many in fandom are taking a good long look at  'Spinner's End' as  
possibly one of the key chapters in HBP for unconsidered trifles that  
may turn out to be more helpful or significant than seems at first  
sight.

There was a right old kerfuffle on HPfGU when it was announced as a  
chapter title - a searching of gazetteers, maps and street plans to  
try and locate it - with the somewhat optimistic hope that it might  
provide a clue. IIRC just one Spinner's End was found (though the  
name has since changed) and that was in Cradeley Heath in the old  
West Midlands industrial area - what was spun there was not cloth or  
thread but wire ropes. Whether Jo based her description on what used  
to be there is doubtful, it was hardly on the tourist itinerary, but  
it was pretty much as depicted in the book - my home patch was only  
three or four miles away. Still, what remains of the Victorian  
industrial hey-day is more or less the same all over the Midlands and  
North of England.

Hardly the place for a bijou batchelor pad, though Sevvy seems quite  
comfy what with his books and an ersatz House Elf to flick a duster  
when required. Peter as Kreacher - or Dobby? What fun!

One of the options available in the FAQ section on the JKR site,  
round Christmas-time I think, was "Where has Peter been during OoP?"  
- that might not be the exact wording, but it's the general gist. It  
didn't win that particular poll, though Jo did allow that there was  
an interesting answer.

Now, does anyone think that for the past year Peter has been fully  
occupied with a little light housework down at Spinners End? Hardly  
seems likely, does it? What with ole Snapey fully engaged at Hogwarts  
or running errands for the Order, yet there he is in chap. 2 of the  
new book, a reluctant Igor to a domineering Sevvy. It could be that  
we're not intended to believe that El Ratto has been slaving away  
with Mrs Skower's Magical Mess Remover for the past year, it does say  
it "had an air of neglect as though it were not usually inhabited."  
OK. A nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse, so what has Ratty  
been up to while we weren't looking?

It's possible to construct all sorts of fanciful notions based on no  
evidence whatsoever,  but the possibility of a sort of future  
parallel between that silver hand and DD's blackened fist does occur.  
Having a built-in set of tongs might be eminently useful when poking  
at spell-protected Horsecluckses.

Food for thought in the bickering between Snape and Peter. At various  
times both have been proposed as characters posing as villains but  
working for DD. If they are they're each either unaware of the  
other's role or putting up a damn good front - or maybe they just  
hate the sight of each other. Hmm. Just how good is Peter at  
Occlumency/Legilimancy? Who knows what about whom? His failed attempt  
at eavesdropping - plain nosiness or is he reporting back? And who  
to? Voldy or DD?

A lovely tangled web of conjecture to paw over.
What more could anyone want?

Kneasy



From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 12:46:09 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:46:09 -0000
Subject: RAB
Message-ID: <dcak2h+feet@...>

Ok, I'm pretty well convinced that RAB is Reg Black.  Some have 
suggested that he is now an Inferius.  If I remember correctly, there 
is a Reg in the Discworld series who is a zombie.  It's been a while, 
so I may be wrong.

Anyway.  Having more time than galleons, I set about to find another 
RAB that hasn't been discovered yet, and to build a theory around 
him/her.  Just for mental exercize, of course, although I will gloat 
like mad if I'm right.  But you knew that.

So.  On to the theory.  R.A.B.

We know those DE's are a nicknamey bunch, starting with Tom "Elvis" 
Riddle himself.  We have Wormtail, the HBP, so what if RAB is a 
nickname?

What if he is (drum roll, please) Rabastan Lestrange.  They may have 
called him Rab for short, and someone came up with a nice little 
phrase for which RAB was an acronym.  Say he grovelled to everyone 
and was known as RAB- Royal @$$ Buffer.  Or something like that.  

So now he's RAB.  Kind of a hanger-on, following the lead of his 
delightful sis-in-law and her devoted hubby.  But he gets tired of 
it.  He knows he's going to die if he leaves, so he sits on the 
idea.  Toady that RAB is, LV decides he is about as trustworthy as 
anyone.  Upon hearing the prophecy, LV wants to go check on his Hx.  
But he needs someone to drink the goo.  LV takes RAB to the cave, 
knocks him out, uses the levilicorpus (thanks, Snape) so he isn't in 
the boat, and gets him to the other side (mobilicorpus?).  Makes him 
drink the goo, shoves a bezoar down his throat (thanks again, Sevvie) 
and takes him back, to the other side.  The Hx is sitting pretty.  Of 
course LV doesn't mention that he has others to RAB, he'll check on 
those seperately. 

RAB goes back, bezoar in hand.  He drinks the goo, bezoar in his 
mouth counteracting it, and replaces the locket.  He waits for LV to 
discover his treachery.  But he never does.  That night, LV goes to 
GH.  And the rest is history.  

RAB thinks that LV is gone for good, so when Bella shows up some time 
later, with news that fellow DE Phil Intheblank has told them to go 
to torture the Longbottoms, he thinks, "Hey, why not?"  He figures it 
won't do any good, and it makes him look good in front of Bella, thus 
promoting family harmony.  

There's my little theory.  What do you think?  Not likely, I know, 
but at least it's someone that hasn't been thought of before.

Side note to Filk Fans, CMC is updating Harry Potter Filks as each 
new filk is contributed.  There are some cute ones.  Check it out!
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/prince.htm.  There are now 38 new filks.

Ginger, who likes CMC's filk "Plague of Inferius" to the tune of Age 
of Aquarius.  





From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 13:09:56 2005
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dca8gc+2f1b@...>
Message-ID: <20050728130956.15428.qmail@...>

--- Talisman <talisman22457 at ...> wrote:
 
>> Magda Grantwich Message 2594
>>And if Regulus was RAB it won't be because he's important to the 
>> plot but rather because it ties into a few other plot points that 
>> are hanging loose at the moment:
>>1. Harry inheriting 12GP and everything in it.
>>2. Harry inheriting Kreacher.
>>3. Kreacher being close at hand at Hogwarts and having to obey 
>>   Harry.
>>4. Mundungus Fletcher being caught stealing loot from 12GP.
> 
> Talisman: 
> That's the thinking behind my original post, except the only reason
> Mundungus' stealing figures in is that it may remind readers of all
> the interesting stuff at GP.  Do you have another reason?


Well, it occurs to me that if Fletcher is busy stripping 12GP of
everything that isn't nailed/hexed down, then time is of the essence
if anything is to be safeguarded.  So it adds a bit of urgency to
Harry's search for the locket in 12GP and in the various pawnshops or
fence establishments in the WW.

One of the clunkiest bits of writing in HBP was Harry running into
Fletcher with his sack of loot in Hogsmeade of all places.  Why was
Fletcher there?  Why wasn't he in Knockturn Alley?  

The only answer I can think of is that there is someone in Hogsmeade
who takes more of an interest in ill-gotten gains than would be
gratifying to the local Better Business Bureau.  And that this person
and his/her shop will be one of Harry's destinations in Book 7.

Magda (who never liked Mungdungus Fletcher from the first)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 13:17:04 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:17:04 -0000
Subject: Soul suction (Re: Those dam Hordevours!)
In-Reply-To: <dca896+8ijh@...>
Message-ID: <dcalsg+3cph@...>

Jo:
> A rip caused by murder would, I imagine, remain entire unless the 
> individual attempted to heal it (remorse, reparation etc). 
Creating 
> a HRX, to me, implies removing the off cut and depositing it 
> elsewhere, something that can be done any time or place, 
subsequent 
> to the death, that you choose.


Jen: Come to think of it, how does Voldemort get those ripped soul 
sections out? I can only think of a couple of options at the moment:

1) Part of the ritual for sealing the Horcrux involves the soul 
being summoned out through the mouth and into the object. 

2) Dementors could help by sucking out the soul. Now this one is 
tricky. What exactly do you offer a dementor to get your soul 
portion back, hmmm? 

I do think preparing the Horcrux would take place at the scene of 
the death. It just fits the style of the dark magic we've seen so 
far. Like using human elements for the re-birthing potion, or 
siponing out Ginny's soul through the diary, there would probably be 
some macabre elements to the spellwork required for a Horcrux. 
Including something from the victim, a blood payment perhaps. 

Maybe you can collect what you need at the scene and split for the 
actual Horcrux. Voldemort seems the type to do this over his fallen 
victim, though.

Jen






From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 14:07:00 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:07:00 -0000
Subject: cobwebs  and Re: Peter
In-Reply-To: <D709740F-3F1B-401E-A66C-D7C045992D7B@...>
Message-ID: <dcaoq4+n8ip@...>


Kneasy wrote: 
> There was a right old kerfuffle on HPfGU when it was announced as 
a  
> chapter title - a searching of gazetteers, maps and street plans 
to  
> try and locate it - with the somewhat optimistic hope that it 
might  
> provide a clue. IIRC just one Spinner's End was found (though the  
> name has since changed) and that was in Cradeley Heath in the old  
> West Midlands industrial area - what was spun there was not cloth 
or  
> thread but wire ropes.

KathyW
Sort of like the ropes that came out of Snape's wand back in PoA? 
Stong enough to restrain a werewolf? 

Not only were people searching maps, they had other ideas: death of 
Aragog, someone's end, someone's goal, something to do with Draco's 
detour....it's almost as if JKR took all the ideas and worked them 
into the book, if not the chapter.

The images that this chapter create are amazing. Who lives at 
Spinner's End? Two SPYders. Hmm, and spy was part of the spider 
riddle back in GoF. Snape has been described in spider-like terms 
(particularly in OoP), fitting he would live here, possibly killing 
flies in this very house as a teen. Right in the chapter itself he 
says, "I spun him a tale of deepest remorse..."

Kneasy:
 Peter as Kreacher - or Dobby? What fun!

KathyW:
And so we could have in book 7 a nice parallel to our favorite 
adversaries: a wanted man, forced to stay in the house of his 
childhood, the house filled with unpleasant memories, all the while 
forced to tolerate a servant he loathes. And don't call him coward.

But is this the beginning of the end for our favorite spinner of 
tales? Or is this chapter telling us his goal?  And what does it mean 
that right after Snape says three times "I will", the next chapter 
is "Will and Won't"?

Kathy W.








From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 15:37:57 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:37:57 -0000
Subject: cobwebs  and Re: Peter
In-Reply-To: <dcaoq4+n8ip@...>
Message-ID: <dcau4l+i8p3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> wrote:
> 
> KathyW
> Sort of like the ropes that came out of Snape's wand back in PoA? 
> Stong enough to restrain a werewolf? 
> 
> Not only were people searching maps, they had other ideas: death of 
> Aragog, someone's end, someone's goal, something to do with Draco's 
> detour....it's almost as if JKR took all the ideas and worked them 
> into the book, if not the chapter.
> 

Yes - I was favouring it to refer to Aragog myself, preferably with Ron
ending as a sucked-dry husk hanging lonely and abandoned in the
depths of the Forbidden Forest.  Ah well, wrong again.

> The images that this chapter create are amazing. Who lives at 
> Spinner's End? Two SPYders. Hmm, and spy was part of the spider 
> riddle back in GoF. Snape has been described in spider-like terms 
> (particularly in OoP), fitting he would live here, possibly killing 
> flies in this very house as a teen. Right in the chapter itself he 
> says, "I spun him a tale of deepest remorse..."
>

Well worth dissecting this chapter. Lots of odds and ends and links
to thoughts and opinions expressed by characters elsewhere.

One little problem that has generated posts in the past - the 'one who
has left him forever' seems to have been answered - or has it?
Snape: "The Dark Lord thought I had left him forever, but he was wrong."
That plus Karkaroff being found dead in some lonesome bothy - he the 
'coward who would be punished' presumably, leaving Barmy Barty Jnr.
as the most faithful servant. Or is Jo pulling a fast one?

Then there's Snape opining that there's nothing special about Harry Potter.
He can't really believe this, can he? Who is he trying to fool? Himself or
well-connected Voldy supporters? Or is he toeing the party line - not
being so suicidally daft as to contradict the version that Voldy is using
to gee-up his flagging troops?

"... it became apparent to me very quickly that he had no extraordinary
talent at all. He fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a
simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is
mediocre to the last degree, though as obnoxious and self-satisfied
as his father before him. I have done my utmost to have him thrown
out of Hogwarts....."

Taken a few liberties with the truth here, has dear Sevvy.
Sure, there's been a lot of luck and DD intervened a fair number of 
times, but still; has he forgotten Parseltongue, producing a Patronus
to dispel multitudes of Dementors, the TWT where he competes 
against elder students? Hardly. So why does he say it?

And true, he demanded Potter's dismissal with an almost metronomic 
regularity, but of DD, who he knows damn well won't back him. But
when there was a regime change and Dear Dolly took charge, did he 
repeat his demand? Nope, even though there was opportunity to do
so. In his own snide way Snapey is playing down Harry's capabilities.
Why?

> 
> KathyW:
> And so we could have in book 7 a nice parallel to our favorite 
> adversaries: a wanted man, forced to stay in the house of his 
> childhood, the house filled with unpleasant memories, all the while 
> forced to tolerate a servant he loathes. And don't call him coward.
> 

Heart-warming, isn't it?
But is there evidence that it is Snape's childhood haven of peace
and domestic felicity? Can't remember any. A reasonable assumption,
true - but we all know what happens when one makes a reasonable 
assumption of what Jo's up to - tooth-grinding frustration at her
sneakiness.
Where does Peter hail from, anybody know?

Kneasy





From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 16:12:38 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:12:38 -0000
Subject: Ummm...I think I know where Nagini is...
Message-ID: <dcb05m+jjd2@...>

http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/news/4773062/detail.html

<wink> lol






From jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 16:21:38 2005
From: jrwahlund at pt4ever.yahoo.invalid (JoAnna Wahlund)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:21:38 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Ummm...I think I know where Nagini is...
In-Reply-To: <dcb05m+jjd2@...>
References: <dcb05m+jjd2@...>
Message-ID: <a63632460507280921252cc68a@...>

Or maybe it's headed for Brazil!

"Thankssssssssssss, amigo..."

On 7/28/05, Milz <absinthe at ...> wrote:
> 
>  http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/news/4773062/detail.html
> 
> <wink> lol
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  SPONSORED LINKS 
>   Half blood prince<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Half+blood+prince&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=Cli6H4Ry1hAjrVrzjsDb5Q>  Albus 
> dumbledore<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Albus+dumbledore&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=yh94YsYSv104wPI70UHX-g>  Jk 
> rowling<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Jk+rowling&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=F0Dx9jF8lCJXz_IBOnz1NQ>   Goblet 
> of fire<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Goblet+of+fire&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=lGh147_z-oIKoVci8gxhow>  Organizational 
> culture<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organizational+culture&w1=Half+blood+prince&w2=Albus+dumbledore&w3=Jk+rowling&w4=Goblet+of+fire&w5=Organizational+culture&c=5&s=109&.sig=a2XQQnp_KZF0meKUSbm4pw>  
>  ------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
> 
>    - Visit your group "the_old_crowd<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd>" 
>    on the web.
>     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
>    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  



-- 
~JoAnna~

Proud mother of Elanor Mary
born 01/13/05

Elanor's website:
http://www.geocities.com/j_wahlund


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 18:04:03 2005
From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:04:03 -0000
Subject: RAB
In-Reply-To: <dcak2h+feet@...>
Message-ID: <dcb6mj+n64e@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" 
<quigonginger at y...> wrote:
> Ok, I'm pretty well convinced that RAB is Reg Black.  Some have 
> suggested that he is now an Inferius.  If I remember correctly, 
there 
> is a Reg in the Discworld series who is a zombie.  It's been a 
while, 
> so I may be wrong.
> 
> Anyway.  Having more time than galleons, I set about to find 
another 
> RAB that hasn't been discovered yet, and to build a theory around 
> him/her.  Just for mental exercize, of course, although I will 
gloat 
> like mad if I'm right.  But you knew that.
> 
> So.  On to the theory.  R.A.B.
> 
> We know those DE's are a nicknamey bunch, starting with Tom "Elvis" 
> Riddle himself.  We have Wormtail, the HBP, so what if RAB is a 
> nickname?
> 
> What if he is (drum roll, please) Rabastan Lestrange.  They may 
have 
> called him Rab for short, and someone came up with a nice little 
> phrase for which RAB was an acronym.  Say he grovelled to everyone 
> and was known as RAB- Royal @$$ Buffer.  Or something like that.  
> 
> So now he's RAB.  Kind of a hanger-on, following the lead of his 
> delightful sis-in-law and her devoted hubby.  But he gets tired of 
> it.  He knows he's going to die if he leaves, so he sits on the 
> idea.  Toady that RAB is, LV decides he is about as trustworthy as 
> anyone.  Upon hearing the prophecy, LV wants to go check on his 
Hx.  
> But he needs someone to drink the goo.  LV takes RAB to the cave, 
> knocks him out, uses the levilicorpus (thanks, Snape) so he isn't 
in 
> the boat, and gets him to the other side (mobilicorpus?).  Makes 
him 
> drink the goo, shoves a bezoar down his throat (thanks again, 
Sevvie) 
> and takes him back, to the other side.  The Hx is sitting pretty.  
Of 
> course LV doesn't mention that he has others to RAB, he'll check on 
> those seperately. 
> 
> RAB goes back, bezoar in hand.  He drinks the goo, bezoar in his 
> mouth counteracting it, and replaces the locket.  He waits for LV 
to 
> discover his treachery.  But he never does.  That night, LV goes to 
> GH.  And the rest is history.  
> 
> RAB thinks that LV is gone for good, so when Bella shows up some 
time 
> later, with news that fellow DE Phil Intheblank has told them to go 
> to torture the Longbottoms, he thinks, "Hey, why not?"  He figures 
it 
> won't do any good, and it makes him look good in front of Bella, 
thus 
> promoting family harmony.  
> 
> There's my little theory.  What do you think?  Not likely, I know, 
> but at least it's someone that hasn't been thought of before.

I think it's a nifty theory!  I don't think it'll end up being true, 
but that's not the point anway.  I had looked at Rastaban, too in 
perusing the Lexicon for possible RABs, just for fun.  
Other possibilities I thought of:
Augustus Rookwood hates his given first name, Barnaby, and is RAB in 
reverse.
A member of the Bagman clan.
(Rebecca?) Alice (Brocklehurst?) Longbottom.
(Rolanda?) Andromeda Black (Tonks' mom)
Mme. Rosmerta (Audrey?) (Beaucorps?) 
Nothing but flights of fancy, obviously, but there you go.

But really, in all honesty, I fully expect RAB to be young Reggie.  
There's way to much to be getting on with for something like that to 
be a twist within a secret within a Riddle or anything.  Not enough 
page time left, and to the casual reader, Reggie will be a total 
surprise and a head-knocking "I shoulda seen that!" situation.

I do definitely believe Reggie took Kreacher with him, but I doubt he 
had Kreacher make him drink the goo.  I mean, he was a Black and a 
DE.  Blacks beheaded their elves when they got old, and mounted their 
heads on the wall.  He'd definitely give the nasty potion to the elf, 
who's magically bound to obey and drink it.  Which might have 
something to do with why the little beast is so nuts.  And Kreacher's 
got the locket, and Harry's not going to realize or think to ask him 
about it till it's almost too late.  It'll be the last snorcacks he 
finds, I bet.  Probably Hermione will be key in getting Harry to 
think of asking Kreacher, if not because she thinks of it, because 
she's nagging him about the little nutter.

That's my guess.  But I still spent an hour at the Lexicon looking 
for other possible RABs.  Obsession level rising.

kimberly






From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 18:25:48 2005
From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:25:48 -0000
Subject: Old Dung, and Imperius question.
In-Reply-To: <20050728130956.15428.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dcb7vc+rpv6@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich > Magda (who 
never liked Mungdungus Fletcher from the first)

I just have to admit that after seeing the name in the very first book, 
I've been planning on naming a dog (or possible two - Gus and Fletch) 
after Mundungus Fletcher, and I can't give up my fondness for the old 
criminal, even after all this time.

Something else that's been tickling my grey cells and finally popped 
out as an actual thought.  Can somebody under Imperius put somebody 
*else* under Imperius?  Because it seems Mme. Rosmerta Imperio'd Katie 
Bell, but they're always on about those Unforgivables and the 
importance of intent and focus and all that.  I guess the will of the 
Imperi-or could be enough to carry it out through the Imperi-ee, but 
from the descriptions we have from GoF, I wouldn't have thought 
Rosmerta would have had the necessary clarity to do it.  Anybody want 
to come up with a ESE!Rosie theory?

kimberly






From SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 20:10:35 2005
From: SongBird3411 at songbird3411.yahoo.invalid (songbird3411)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:10:35 -0000
Subject: Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <dc97rn+70go@...>
Message-ID: <dcbe3r+r3vb@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> 
wrote:

>> It actually makes me look back at all the DADA appointments over 
the years 
[snipping list of DADA teachers] 
 Anyway, how many of them do you think knew about the jinx?<< 

Mindy: 

I too gave a look back at all the DADA teachers.  The fact that 
Dumbledore knew the job was cursed sheds some light on some of his 
decisions.  

Quirrell:  No, I don't think he was told about the curse.  Quirell 
is my biggest question mark of the buunch, truly.  Couldn't DD see 
that something was amiss?  Snape certainly did.  Hmmm....

Lockhart:  No, no DD did not tell him.  In fact, this is one of the 
cases where knowing the job is cursed helps to understand DD's 
rationale.  At least to me.  Perhaps DD wanted to expose Lockhart as 
a fraud.  What better way?  Really, once I knew DD knew the job was 
cursed, I wondered if maybe there were years where he used the post 
to expose frauds or get rid of irritating people.  Perhaps a bit 
cruel of DD.  Still, I can almost picture him sitting there 
saying, "Hmmmm, who is irritating me this year..."  Anyway, the 
point is, I think DD hired Lockhart *because* the job is cursed.

Lupin:  Not sure.  I would like to think that DD told him about the 
jinx.  DD thought it was important for an Order member to teach this 
class, someone truly qualified to get the kids ready.  He knew that 
he would need Lupin in other areas for Order business soon, so might 
as well let him teach DADA now.

Moody:  I think DD told the real Moody.  Perhaps he even thought 
Moody could come up with a way to break the curse?  Either way, I 
don't think Moody would have cared.  See above reasons for Lupin and 
apply the same to the hiring of Moody.  

Umbridge:  Again, I now finally understand why DD would let someone 
from the Ministry take this job.  This truly baffled me before now; 
it seemed so dangerous.  Now, I understand.  Heck, DD was probably 
hoping someone truly high up in the Ministry would take the job.  
Just let the curse do its job....

Snape:  Unlike SSSusan, I don't think Snape knew about this curse 
before this year.  He may have suspected, of course.  I think DD 
told him when he finally gave him the job.  By the by Sevvy, the 
real reason I haven't been giving you the job is because Voldy 
cursed it and I needed you around.  Though, I agree, if DD had told 
Snape sooner, the reason Snape kept applying was to keep up 
appearances for the DE's and Voldy.  Although, I guess maybe Snape 
could have thought he could break the curse.  Something to ponder.

Really though, when we found out DD knew about the curse, my first 
thought was, "Oh!  So, that explains Lockhart and Umbridge!"  
Quirrell.... I still don't know.  Did DD know he was Quirellmort?  
Did Snape??  Perhaps he was just on sabbatical for a year and DD 
welcomed him back without doing some fact checking (aka 
Legilimency)?  I need to stop now.  Quirrell confuses me.

Mindy






From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 20:13:54 2005
From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:13:54 -0000
Subject: another lame post, but where the heck was Fawkes....
Message-ID: <dcbea2+kukg@...>

He showed up to help Harry in the Chamber, and he joined DD at the MOM 
to help fight Voldie. Odd to me that he was not around for the fun on 
the tower.  Fawkes was conspicuously absent from this fracas which 
imho, further supports DD and Snape having some sort of agreement about 
Snape offing DD if necessary, or Snape keeping his ruse up as a DE and 
helping Draco in his endeavor. I'm not sure  Snape knew what the plan 
was exactly. If DD really wanted to win this particular battle,  Fawkes 
would have been there to help him like he did at the MOM fight. 

Fawkes sure would have been useful in the cave...here Fawkes drink 
this, your feathers have been looking dreadful lately. Fawkes bursts 
into flames, helping to keep the inferi away...

I wonder if Harry will inherit Fawkes? What a menagerie Harry is 
collecting: Kreacher, Buckbeck, and maybe Fawkes. He should have stayed 
in Care of Magical Creatures...

Yours truly in confusion,
Fran






From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 20:52:28 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:52:28 -0000
Subject: Those dam Hordevours!
In-Reply-To: <dca896+8ijh@...>
Message-ID: <dcbgic+4ttd@...>

I said, regarding Tom Riddle using the "soul tears" from old murders:
> > This assumes one can "save up" the soul fragments from a murder 
> > and use them later, which I doubt.  I suspect that horcrux must 
> > be made 
> > at or immemdiately after the time of the murder.


and Jo said:
> I'm curious why do you doubt this?
>
> The way I see it is that we are told murder tears the soul, but not 
> that the remnant promptly exits stage left. Why would it?  DD 
> indicates that there is a primary bit of soul, the one still with 
> Voldy, that appears to anchor all the others. 
> 
> A rip caused by murder would, I imagine, remain entire unless the 
> individual attempted to heal it (remorse, reparation etc). Creating 
> a HRX, to me, implies removing the off cut and depositing it 
> elsewhere, something that can be done any time or place, subsequent 
> to the death, that you choose.

Good post, Jo, I copied the whole thing instead of excerpting.

Going back and looking at Slughorn's description of the horcrux, I 
agree there is nothing that says the murder must be recent. However, 
being able to say, "Hey!  I murdered some guy twenty years ago, I 
just realized I can make a horcrux!" seems, well, too easy.  Hermione 
finds a book saying the horcrux is the "wickedest of magical 
inventions", so wicked that the book "Magick Moste Evile" refuses to 
discuss it.  The topic is banned at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore is 
adamant about the ban.  If the problem with horcruxes was that only 
murderers could make them, that doesn't seem evil enough to get this 
treatment. AK is discussed openly, and there are plenty of murderers 
in the wizarding world.  So, I was thinking that it had to be more 
than just a murder in one's past, and that an unwilling human 
sacrifice was part of the actual creation of the horcrux.  

However, I was just talking to a friend, and she said that perhaps 
the murder isn't what makes the horcrux so evil.  What makes it so 
evil, maybe, is how it permanently separates the soul -- she compared 
it to selling your soul to the devil.  So, that is another 
possibility.

As for what happens to one's torn soul long after committing murder, 
I definitely don't think the fragment of soul leaves.  We've seen 
that, when Tom Riddle got rid of fragments of his soul, he became 
less human, even in appearance.  Having part of your soul leave you 
seems to be very rare.  I was thinking more that the horcrux could 
only be made when the rip in the soul was fresh.  After a time, the 
rip would sort of scar over.  But that is just speculation.  I hadn't 
thought of repentance as being needed to heal the soul; I like that 
idea.

-- Judy









From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 21:13:48 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:13:48 -0000
Subject: Horcrux n' Hufflepuff    (was Re: Those dam[n] Hordevours!)
In-Reply-To: <dca96a+e0m9@...>
Message-ID: <dcbhqc+kucq@...>

I said that I didn't think Tom Riddle would make his the award for 
special services into a horcrux. 


And Talisman responded:
> I don't know if you've seen my post 2435.  It explains how I
> believe what now resides at Hogwarts in the guise of the TR Trophy 
> is the Hufflepuff Cup.  Tom obtained the Hufflepuff Cup after
> leaving school 
> and he could have turned it into a Hx using any of the murders he 
> indulged in, thereafter.

I hadn't read it before (there are still 200 post-HBP posts here I
need to read), but I have now.  I think the idea of transfiguring a
horcrux is a good one. Let me make sure I understand your theory -- 
Voldemort wants to make Hufflepuff's cup into a horcrux.  He decided 
to hide the Cup by transfiguring it into something else.  He doesn't 
like the idea of making the Cup into something unimportant. Instead, 
he makes it look like his trophy, and leaves it in place of the 
trophy.  By doing this, he has hid the Cup-horcrux, thumbed his nose 
at the Wizarding World, put the Cup-horcrux in a protected place, and 
he strengthened his connection to Hogwarts. 

Good theory! Yes, I think that is possible.   And it fits with the 
idea that if a horcrux is at Hogwarts, it was made after Tom Riddle 
left school.  He still hadn't made the 6th horcrux at the time of the 
Potters' deaths, so he obviously took his time, so I don't think he 
made more than one while at school.

-- Judy





From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 21:42:26 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:42:26 -0000
Subject: Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <dcbe3r+r3vb@...>
Message-ID: <dcbjg2+a795@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "songbird3411" 
<SongBird3411 at a...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> 
> wrote:
 
> Mindy: 
> 
> I too gave a look back at all the DADA teachers.  The fact that 
> Dumbledore knew the job was cursed sheds some light on some of his 
> decisions.  

Carolyn:
The thing I find curious about the jinx is that it isn't a very awful 
one is it? Not on it's own. Even more oddly, it only seems to operate 
when people do bad things. You would have thought that a Voldy-
special would have helped them.

Quirrell is perfectly ok, and is possibly in the job for more than 
one year, until he gets led astray in Albania.

Lockhart survives, grinning toothily, until he tries to memory-wipe 
Ron and Harry.

Lupin's ok until he actually puts people in danger by his 
transformation.

The real Moody is relatively unscathed at the end of the year, since 
he didn't actually do the job. Crouch!Moody is only soul-sucked after 
trying to kill Harry.

Umbridge only got a bad fright, and doesn't even seem to have been 
chucked out of the ministry.

And Snape..well, hard to know. He's not dead, though certainly 
thought to be a murderer. He may have been strong enought to make the 
jinx fit into his plan, not vice versa.

So, all it seems to amount to is if the DADA prof gets tempted by the 
dark side, something is likely to go wrong, but it won't necessarily 
be fatal (depending on type of crime), although probably hard to live 
down.

DD recognised Voldie's sig in the magic in the cave - is this another 
example of Tom's odd split personality? A kind of warning as to the 
perils of the Dark Arts? 

Perhaps DD always hoped that his next appointee would be 
strong/stupid enough not to get tempted, and thus break the jinx.

Carolyn





From timregan at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 22:14:10 2005
From: timregan at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:14:10 +0100
Subject: Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition
Message-ID: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02211927@...>

Hi All,

I'm at Accio 2005 and heard from Troels Forchhammer via Ali Hewison a
very strange omission in the UK version of Harry Potter and the Half
Blood Prince. Dumbledore is back from drinking that awful potion and he
is in his office trying to persuade Malfoy to repent. 

Here's what he says in the UK edition:

<<< What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight
to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban ...
>>>

In the USA edition there are two addition sentences between those two,
the latter one sees Dumbledore suggesting that the Order could fake
Narcissa's abduction and death since the Death Eaters would be expecting
it. (Sorry, I didn't bring a USA edition back up to my room to
transcribe.)

I can understand language changes, but why would Bloomsbury cut two
sentences, or Scholastic add them?

Cheers,

Tim.



From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 23:27:36 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:27:36 -0000
Subject: Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition
In-Reply-To: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02211927@...>
Message-ID: <dcbpl8+r341@...>

Tim  wrote:
> I'm at Accio 2005 and heard from Troels Forchhammer via Ali Hewison 
> a very strange omission in the UK version of Harry Potter and the 
> Half Blood Prince. 
...
> I can understand language changes, but why would Bloomsbury cut two
> sentences, or Scholastic add them?

The missing sentences are:
"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right 
side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can 
possible imagine."

It is pretty obvious that this isn't a language change; it is a flat-
out mistake. The question is, which version did JKR intend? 

I was just talking about this with a friend at lunch, and she thinks 
JKR must have changed her mind about this passage, but only one 
version got her changes. My friend's theory is that JKR wanted to 
take out the two sentences in the US edition, because she was afraid 
they would lead fans to conclude that Dumbledore had only pretended 
to die.  

This is possible, but doesn't explain why JKR left the following line 
in both editions: "Nobody would be surprised that you had died in 
your attempt to kiil me." This line also makes it clear that the 
Order can fake deaths.

So, my guess is that it was just an editing glitch.

By the way, I really wish I was at Accio!  I considered going, but 
didn't want to spend the money.  What was I thinking???  Hope you 
have a great time, Tim.  

-- Judy





From timregan at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jul 28 23:44:30 2005
From: timregan at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:44:30 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition
Message-ID: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB0221192B@...>

Hi All,

I wrote: 
<<< I'm at Accio 2005 and heard from Troels Forchhammer via Ali Hewison
a very strange omission in the UK version of Harry Potter and the Half
Blood Prince. 
...
I can understand language changes, but why would Bloomsbury cut two
sentences, or Scholastic add them? >>>

Then Judy suggested:
<<< The missing sentences are:
"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right
side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possible
imagine." >>> 

But no, they are not. Here are the two sections:

Dumbledore in UK:
<<< Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more
completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send
members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your
father is safe at the moment in Azkaban ... >>>

Dumbledore in USA (thanks to Lynn on main list):
<<< Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more
completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send
members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody
would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me -
forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it.  Nor would the Death
Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother - it is
what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the
moment in Azkaban ...  >>>

Cheers,

Tim / Dumbledad




From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 00:16:56 2005
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:16:56 -0000
Subject: Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition
In-Reply-To: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB0221192B@...>
Message-ID: <dcbsho+f3qa@...>

Oops, sorry. I had heard that it was the two previous sentences that 
were missing (and didn't have a UK book to check), and then missed your 
statement that it was the two middle sentences.

Anyway, I think my belief about this is still the same.  Probably, JKR 
wanted to change this paragraph, and only one version got the updates.
Now that I see which sentences were actually missing, I suspect she 
just thought the paragraph was too long.

-- Judy





From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 01:29:03 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:29:03 -0000
Subject: Old Dung, and Imperius question.
In-Reply-To: <dcb7vc+rpv6@...>
Message-ID: <dcc0ov+8e5h@...>

> kimberly: 
> Something else that's been tickling my grey cells and finally popped 
> out as an actual thought.  Can somebody under Imperius put somebody 
> *else* under Imperius?  Because it seems Mme. Rosmerta Imperio'd Katie 
> Bell, but they're always on about those Unforgivables and the 
> importance of intent and focus and all that.  I guess the will of the 
> Imperi-or could be enough to carry it out through the Imperi-ee, but 
> from the descriptions we have from GoF, I wouldn't have thought 
> Rosmerta would have had the necessary clarity to do it.  Anybody want 
> to come up with a ESE!Rosie theory?
> 

Neri:
To my knowledge we don't have canon of an imperio'ed person
imperio'ing somebody else. However, we *do* have canon of Crouch!Moody
imperio'ing Krum to crucio Cedric in the maze in GoF. 

The possibility of imperio'ed wizards imperio'ing other wizards has
terrible implications that I doubt very much JKR thought through. It
can easily be used to construct a truly apocalyptic weapon, which I
have patented as the Imperius Virus. see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92918
and the ensuing thread. Note especially Hickengruendler's correct
point: Krum had learned the Cruciatus at Durmstrang, but British
wizards don't learn at school how to use the Unforgivables, and not
all of them may be able to learn, or have enough power to execute
them. So if Draco wanted to imperio Rosmerta to imperio Katie, he most
probably had to teach her first how to do it.

Neri






From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 06:35:08 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:35:08 -0000
Subject: Soul suction (Re: Those dam Hordevours!)
In-Reply-To: <dcalsg+3cph@...>
Message-ID: <dccims+c68j@...>

> Jo:
> > A rip caused by murder would, I imagine, remain entire unless the 
> > individual attempted to heal it (remorse, reparation etc). 
> Creating 
> > a HRX, to me, implies removing the off cut and depositing it 
> > elsewhere, something that can be done any time or place, 
> subsequent 
> > to the death, that you choose.
> 
> 
> Jen: Come to think of it, how does Voldemort get those ripped soul 
> sections out? I can only think of a couple of options at the moment:
> 
> 1) Part of the ritual for sealing the Horcrux involves the soul 
> being summoned out through the mouth and into the object. 
> 
> 2) Dementors could help by sucking out the soul. Now this one is 
> tricky. What exactly do you offer a dementor to get your soul 
> portion back, hmmm? 

Ginger:  Maybe you hold the murdered soul in some kind of static 
state and then invite the dementor over, with the understanding that 
he will suck out only an ittybitty piece of yours, and give it back 
in exchange for the nice big whole soul of your victim.  Hope I'm not 
giving you any ideas.

Ginger, ghoulish tonight






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 06:43:07 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:43:07 -0000
Subject: Gotta Light? (was His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <20050728130956.15428.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dccj5r+ermm@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich 
<mgrantwich at y...> wrote:--- Talisman <talisman22457 at ...> wrote:
> That's the thinking behind my original post, except the only reason
> Mundungus' stealing figures in is that it may remind readers of all
> the interesting stuff at GP. Do you have another reason?

Magda:
>Well, it occurs to me that if Fletcher is busy stripping 12GP of
>everything that isn't nailed/hexed down, then time is of the essence
>if anything is to be safeguarded. So it adds a bit of ...
<snip>
>Magda (who never liked Mungdungus Fletcher from the first)

Talisman, who would have kept--never would have thrown out--all the 
spooky Dark stuff at GP, if only for, ahem, "scientific" purposes.

You never know when a box of wartcap powder or a sedating music box 
is going to come in handy.  Waste not want not.

Well, you got me thinking of Mundungus, Magda. I'm with you. I can't 
say I'd miss the stinky little blighter if he were to accidentally 
forget to show up for Book 7.  But, since he's bound to be there, 
let's make the most of him.  

How's this, just for fun. (Unless it comes to pass, in which case, I 
mean it quite in earnest. <g>)

Harry et al finally figure out that the locket is the one from 
12GP.  They question Kreature, find out he saved it from the trash, 
and search his nest.  But, alas, it's not there.  

Of course they think of Dung (Kreature offers a suitable epithet) 
but sticky-fingers has been keeping a low profile these days. 
Moreover, there is no telling who may have the hot goods now--could 
have been sold to any odd hag in the street, really. 

What to do?  Slim as their hopes seem, they ask around and do what 
little they can to locate the musty perp. They're getting nowhere.

Then, one day, Harry stumbles into a back room--and--there he is: 
slumped against the wall, his entire body burnt more completely than 
DD's hand; the once putrid tobacco-boy now turned all to ash and--in 
one charred hand--the open locket.

Or, how about this.  The locket IS the last Hx they need to find.  
But, LV forces a showdown before they can locate it.  Things look 
bleak for our team, but there's nothing for it.  Harry heads into 
the arena for the death match (head held high, of course).  Dramatic 
battle scenes ensue.  Somehow, when the smoke clears, LV seems to be 
gone.

How can this be? Is he merely hiding again? Will the last Hx allow 
him to return anew?  

Then, one day Harry stumbles into a back room, etc.  

Mungbean had inadvertently destroyed the locket Hx long ago, taking 
the curse consequences instead of our hero.  The DL's defeat is 
indeed final. All we need now is a dust pan and a broom. Huzzah.


Talisman, thinking we may find some productive use for that skanky 
little chew-wad, yet.

 






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 07:01:49 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:01:49 -0000
Subject: Soul suction (Re: Those dam Hordevours!)
In-Reply-To: <dccims+c68j@...>
Message-ID: <dcck8t+q23n@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" 
<quigonginger at y...> wrote:
> Ginger:  Maybe you hold the murdered soul in some kind of static 
> state and then invite the dementor over, with the understanding that 
> he will suck out only an ittybitty piece of yours...
<snip>> 
> Ginger, ghoulish tonight

Talisman, catching a whiff of that naughty spicy ginger goulash:

::delightfully creepy shudder:: 
Snogging with a dementor? Be gentle darling, and only take a little? 

And, speaking of dementor sex, how about that clammy mist being some 
sort of reproductive emission?  Guess we HAD better put on our 
raincoats, eh?

Talisman, saying Ginger started it.





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 07:34:26 2005
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:34:26 -0000
Subject: The Reveal-O-Chair (was Are prodigals allowed?
In-Reply-To: <dcbjg2+a795@...>
Message-ID: <dccm62+bs34@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" 
<carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote: 
> The thing I find curious about the jinx is that it isn't a very 
awful one is it? Not on it's own.
<snip> 
> So, all it seems to amount to is if the DADA prof gets tempted by 
the dark side, something is likely to go wrong, but it won't 
necessarily be fatal 
<snip> 

Talisman: The Reveal-O-Chair just reveals your darkest secret, 
that's all.  I suppose really boring people wouldn't have too tough 
a time.

Carolyn:
>... is this another example of Tom's odd split personality? A kind 
>of warning as to the perils of the Dark Arts? 

Talisman: Or, a way of TR saying to DD "So I'm not good enough for 
you, eh? Well just look at the wonderful qualities of the person you 
thought WAS a fit candidate for the job.  Ha, Ha." 
>
Carolyn: 
> Perhaps DD always hoped that his next appointee would be 
> strong/stupid enough not to get tempted, and thus break the jinx.

Talisman:
Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I think DD used the jinx, 
including the fact that it cycled through visiting Profs, to further 
his own Plan.

In each year, DD hired exactly the Prof he wanted. The fact that 
they would be revealed worked to his ends. The fact that they 
couldn't stay more than one year allowed him to put in the right 
person for the next step in the project.

I do think it's funny that the DADA chair busted LV's servants, 
twice, inasmuch as he's the one who cursed the job--but of course 
it's the most obvious way to come in: with the "new guy" who can 
be "jumped" before term starts.

This will make a good discussion topic, after HBP issues die down a 
bit.

Talisman, saying DD always knew the hidden evils of his DADA profs, 
but the curse worked for him in revealing the truth to others.





From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 10:44:56 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:44:56 +0100
Subject: Lockets
Message-ID: <4A9DE926-6D8E-4FF3-AB4B-AECCAA08E30D@...>


A locket in 12 G.P.
A locket in the House of Gaunt, sold to Hepzibah Smith via Borgin and  
Burkes and eventually 'liberated' by Tom.
A locket in the bird-bath in the Cave.
A locket that Harry picks up from beside DD.

A surfeit of lockets.
Just how many are we dealing with here?

Descriptions are scant with some verging on the non-existent, but  
every little helps.

1. That at GP has no useful details attached, merely that it was  
heavy and couldn't be opened.

2. The Gaunt Slytherin heirloom is heavy, golden, on a golden chain  
and carried Slytherin's mark of an ornate serpentine 'S'.

3. The Cave locket is golden too, with a chain, though no marks are  
described.

4. And the one Harry picks up was neither as large as the locket he  
remembered seeing in the Pensieve, nor were there any markings upon  
it. And Harry opens it with no trouble at all.

How many lockets are there?  One, two, three or four?

Not four, I think. Mostly because I'm gullible enough to believe that  
3. & 4. are the same item. It'd be too much for DD to have another  
locket about his person - though that wouldn't be beyond the bounds  
of authorial naughtiness that Aggie Christie, much admired by Jo, was  
capable of.

It looks as if there are at least two, perhaps three, lockets.
For sure there's Slytherin's with the serpentine 'S' which is larger  
than the non-marked one Harry finds beside DD. There's been a switch,  
a ringer replacing the real one, this we're told.

Then there's the 12 GP job - is it the Slytherin heirloom or not?  
Difficult to say - no adjective such as  'golden', no description of  
it having a Slytherin mark. But it can't be opened, which sort of  
negates it being the 3/4 model. Could be red herring or clue,  
depending on which scenario you fancy.

What  doesn't help is the absence of a time-line. When did Voldy put  
his soul fragment into the locket? Most probably during the First  
Voldy War if his graveyard boasting about having got closer to  
immortality than anyone else is anything to go by. When was the  
locket placed in the Cave? Roughly the same time?  All this would  
encourage the theory that RAB is Reggy -  he stole the genuine item,  
substituted the duff one before coming to a sticky end.

The stumbling block  here is how a neo-DE, someone very junior in the  
ranks, finds out that Voldy is soul-splitting, finds out what item  
contains a Voldy soul-fragment, gets said item in his sweaty paws,  
lays his hands on a not very convincing substitute and switches, a  
switch that is never detected by people who should be able to tell  
the difference. See, there's the other Hearseclick, the Diary. Voldy  
gives it to Malfoy for safe-keeping - but even Malfoy, deep in the  
confidences of Voldy as he is, doesn't know what its secret is. So  
how would Reggy know what the locket contains?

There's an awful lot of loose ends floating around.

Then there's the whole Cave set-up.
What's it for?
The Diary wasn't surrounded by no-touch spells, nor presumably was  
the ring with the black stone, nor (if the theorisers are correct) is  
the Tom Riddle Cup in the Trophy Room. Only when their contents are  
accessed do the spells appear. Why should the locket be different?

Two possibilities that make some sort of  sense  - it wasn't Voldy  
that surrounded it with all that protection -  it was whoever stole  
the original. A way of hiding the fact that the true Hersnix had gone  
and hopefully causing great aggravation to Voldy if he ever wanted a  
piece of his soul back -  as evidenced by the fact that the message  
in the locket was addressed to him.

This nifty bit of spellwork tends to militate against Reggy - he was  
younger than Sirius, no more than very early 20s at most. Would he  
have the power, the knowledge, the experience to set it all up? Maybe  
- if he had help. Dear old dad, perhaps? He's a fan of Dark Magic.

The alternative is that Voldy set up all that protection, and when  
some little gofer drops the locket in the bird-bath it somehow causes  
the spells to activate. But why? Why would Voldy hide this particular  
artifact behind a screen of Dark Magic? Is it special? And would the  
spells activate for a fake?

In any event, would Voldy trust a beginner-DE (if it was Reggie) to  
perform this important errand unsupervised? That doesn't sound like  
Voldy, he'd use someone he trusted. (See below for a canon hint that  
this was what he intended but his 'trusted' hench-wizards - Bella and  
Lucius -may have cocked it up somehow.)

Two other things to think about -  one locket-related, the other -  
who knows?

The note in the locket states that RAB *intends* to destroy the  
Horcrocks - that doesn't guarantee that RAB succeeded in doing so -  
that bit of Voldy may still have to be dealt with - an unexpected  
surprise for Harry in book 7? Maybe it's still at 12 GP. Maybe Reggie  
(if he is RAB) never had the time nor the skill to open the locket  
and kill the soul-fragment. Such a pity we don't know if the GP  
locket is golden with a serpentine 'S'. That'd make it neat and tidy,  
wouldn't it?

Secondly - a truncated sentence from Bella in Spinner's End - yes,  
another little clue(?) from that intriguing chapter:
"The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious  
- if Lucius hadn't - "

Which 'precious' is this? The Diary, which we know Lucius had? But we  
are led to believe that Voldy personally gave that to Malfoy for safe- 
keeping. How was Bella involved?

But if it's another 'precious'.... and if the 'hadn't' refers to a  
mis-judgement by Lucius....
Which 'precious' is Bella referring to? A golden locket?

Kneasy




From absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 13:00:47 2005
From: absinthe at milztoday.yahoo.invalid (Milz)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:00:47 -0000
Subject: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <4A9DE926-6D8E-4FF3-AB4B-AECCAA08E30D@...>
Message-ID: <dcd99v+5ssp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> 
> Secondly - a truncated sentence from Bella in Spinner's End - yes,  
> another little clue(?) from that intriguing chapter:
> "The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious  
> - if Lucius hadn't - "
> 
> Which 'precious' is this? The Diary, which we know Lucius had? But we  
> are led to believe that Voldy personally gave that to Malfoy for safe- 
> keeping. How was Bella involved?
> 
> But if it's another 'precious'.... and if the 'hadn't' refers to a  
> mis-judgement by Lucius....
> Which 'precious' is Bella referring to? A golden locket?
> 
> Kneasy

I don't what what 'precious' Bella refers to, but whatever it is, I
hope Rowling isn't doing the HP version of "The DaVinci Code" (if ya
know what I mean!)

Milz (who's about to do a Dobby for thinking of that!)





From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 16:15:13 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:15:13 -0000
Subject: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <4A9DE926-6D8E-4FF3-AB4B-AECCAA08E30D@...>
Message-ID: <dcdkmh+9o68@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

>A surfeit of lockets.
>Just how many are we dealing with here?

Carolyn:
Rats

just in the middle of a long reply to Talisman, which makes 
many of the same points as you raise here, so I will respond to both 
of you jointly.

On lockets, don't forget the other two given to Ron and Molly at 
Christmas. Just JKR's little joke, I'm sure.

Talisman:
While there are any number of alternate theories, my preference for 
Reg springs from what I consider the greatest weight of the evidence. 
I just don't think the possibility of other relatives with matching 
initials is as strong as the evidence for Reg.
<snip>
Rowling can make up any scenario she likes. But at least with Reg, 
she's got less to make up than if she goes for a character whose 
story doesn't yet place them as a defecting DE with the right 
initials, access to both the cave and the place the locket ended up 
(GP), not to mention a certain informative elf.

Kneasy:
What doesn't help is the absence of a time-line. When did Voldy put 
his soul fragment into the locket? Most probably during the First 
Voldy War if his graveyard boasting about having got closer to 
immortality than anyone else is anything to go by. When was the 
locket placed in the Cave? Roughly the same time? All this would 
encourage the theory that RAB is Reggy - he stole the genuine item, 
substituted the duff one before coming to a sticky end.

The stumbling block here is how a neo-DE, someone very junior in the 
ranks, finds out that Voldy is soul-splitting, finds out what item 
contains a Voldy soul-fragment, gets said item in his sweaty paws, 
lays his hands on a not very convincing substitute and switches, a 
switch that is never detected by people who should be able to tell 
the difference. See, there's the other Hearseclick, the Diary. Voldy 
gives it to Malfoy for safe-keeping - but even Malfoy, deep in the 
confidences of Voldy as he is, doesn't know what its secret is. So 
how would Reggy know what the locket contains?

There's an awful lot of loose ends floating around.

Carolyn:
You bet there is. Whilst I don't disagree that we are being given 
anvil-sized hints as to the true nature of the locket at 12GP, and 
that Kreacher has a role to play in discovering where it is, or that 
Regulus is involved in the story somehow or other, I do think there 
are substantive problems with the cave aspect of the heist. Of 
course, if you are meta-thinking, JKR will find a solution to them, 
but nevertheless they seem to cry out for our attention now.

1) What is the point of replacing the locket with an imitation one, 
and replacing the potion after emptying out the first lot? The note, 
yes, can understand that. RAB wants Voldie to know he did it. But the 
rest of it just seems ..superfluous. Why not just concentrate on 
getting the hell out of there and destroying what he's found, since 
judging by DD, RAB has only a very, very short time to live?

2) And RAB didn't destroy it, did he? Shades of the One Ring? It 
wouldn't let him? Didn't have the power to do it, and/or was murdered 
before he found out how to destroy it?

3) Plus, not for the first time, I am puzzled by Lord V's ineptitude. 
DD says: `[he] would not want to kill the person who reached this 
island.' `He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out 
how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences 
'

So far as we can understand it, this has now happened twice, and 
although both the intruders have died, Lord V hasn't the slightest 
idea who they are, or even that they have nicked his precioussss. So, 
is DD lying?

4) Alternatively, let's assume that Lord V is not so incompetent. 
Surely, the very first thing he would do after being rebodied is do a 
little tour of his horrockses. He finds out that the diary is 
destroyed, and Lucius is suitably punished, but presumably all the 
rest past muster. How can this false locket fool him, since he of all 
people must be able to know the real thing, and obviously the potion 
would be no barrier to him? Do we really believe that he took a quick 
look at the green surface and didn't check further, or couldn't 
actually sense whether or not his own soul was in there? The only 
possible explanation would be that the locket was still ok that 
summer of 1995, and has been subsequently swapped.

Kneasy:
Then there's the whole Cave set-up.
What's it for?
The Diary wasn't surrounded by no-touch spells, nor presumably was 
the ring with the black stone, nor (if the theorisers are correct) is 
the Tom Riddle Cup in the Trophy Room. Only when their contents are 
accessed do the spells appear. Why should the locket be different?

Two possibilities that make some sort of sense - it wasn't Voldy that 
surrounded it with all that protection - it was whoever stole the 
original. 
<snip>

The alternative is that Voldy set up all that protection, and when 
some little gofer drops the locket in the bird-bath it somehow causes 
the spells to activate. But why? Why would Voldy hide this particular 
artifact behind a screen of Dark Magic? Is it special? And would the 
spells activate for a fake?

Carolyn:
Only Snape (or another potions master with an interest in the Dark 
Arts) would seem to have the necessary expertise to whip up the gunk. 
It seems to ensure that the person drinking it will re-live their 
worst nightmares; it is sort of essence of Dementor/boggart (maybe 
all you do is put them through a liquidiser and add a dash of green 
colouring).

But why would Snape or anyone else leaving the replacement potion 
assume that Voldy would drink it in order to retrieve his locket? 
He'd just vanish it or some such. Those properties can't have been 
important. Perhaps what was added to the replacement gunk was 
something that would fool Voldie that the real locket was still there 
unless he looked really closely ?

Really annoying plot points these. Ahem. A bit like the portkey in 
GoF


Ok, leaving that lot on one side, did DD realise at any point that he 
had been fooled? Did he suddenly realise that someone had got there 
before him, and that the potion had been tampered with? After all his 
contempt for Voldy's style of magic, he ends up gasping to 
Harry: `The protection was...after all
well designed'. `One alone 
could not have done it.'  And the only person he wanted to see was 
Snape.

And on the topic of the DADA professor, Talisman commented:

Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I think DD used the jinx, 
including the fact that it cycled through visiting Profs, to further 
his own Plan.

In each year, DD hired exactly the Prof he wanted. The fact that they 
would be revealed worked to his ends. The fact that they couldn't 
stay more than one year allowed him to put in the right person for 
the next step in the project.

Carolyn:
I agree on the ulterior motives behind his choice of DADA professors. 
There can be no other rationale for the curious mix of no-hopers and 
the very competent. Further, bear in mind that Voldie cursed the job 
in 1955, so DD has had to find at least 40 new people over the 
intervening years. Even if he didn't start out with a plan, any 
Headmaster would have to devise a strategy to cope with that.

But I also wonder whether each time he appointed someone, in some way 
he re-sealed the curse that Voldemort had put on the job. But, either 
way, I'm sure Snape knew what was entailed when he took it on at 
last. Question is, how far did DD realize what he was asking? JKR 
made this comment in the recent Mugglenet interview:

`But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly 
in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you 
from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies 
that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very 
intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore 
[
.] I see him as isolated, and a few people have said to me rightly 
I think, that he is detached.'

Carolyn











From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 16:52:17 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:52:17 -0000
Subject: Those dam Hordevours!
In-Reply-To: <dcbgic+4ttd@...>
Message-ID: <dcdms1+l4qr@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at j...> wrote:
  
> <snip>
> However, I was just talking to a friend, and she said that perhaps 
> the murder isn't what makes the horcrux so evil.  What makes it so 
> evil, maybe, is how it permanently separates the soul -- she 
compared 
> it to selling your soul to the devil.  So, that is another 
> possibility.
> 
yep, that's how I see it. Once that little bit of soul is parked 
elsewhere the whole cannot be 'saved', not only is it using the 
damage inflicted by a terrible act for personal gain but it is 
denying any possibility of healing and redemption.

<snip>

  I was thinking more that the horcrux could 
> only be made when the rip in the soul was fresh.  After a time, 
the 
> rip would sort of scar over.  

Nope, I think that without a good dollop of guilt, remorse, 
attrition, whatever, the rip festers. I can't believe a murder 
committed 10 years ago that remains unlamented can be *less* 
damaging than one committed yesterday when the potential for 
retrospective regret is still a possibility. If that makes sense?

By this time Voldy's soul must look like so much chopped liver of 
the *ripe* variety. Ah Pate, the perfect 'horses doobries' for 
Talisman's dementor snack/regurgitate theory.

Regards
Jo

I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the 
time was ripe for a cheese cauldron.







From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 17:22:29 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:22:29 -0000
Subject: Coward Harry, Coward Snape...
Message-ID: <dcdokl+kl1r@...>

or how Harry gets a taste of what it is like to be Snape.

Harry may be the only one other than LV who knows the whole story of the Horcruxes. To 
that extent, it means that only he knows he cannot try to kill LV until all the HX's are 
destroyed. So is it not likely that a point will come in 7 when the "chosen one" will have an 
opportunity to fight LV, in public view, and he will have to back down, indeed perhaps run 
away--for reasons only he will understand.  And isn't it likely that will lead to Harry being 
branded a coward, perhaps even by many closest to him.

Perhaps too, maybe Snape also knows about the HX's, and will be the only one to 
understand the true motivation for Harry's actions, and their prudence in the overall 
context of the mission. If so, will he find it delightfully ironic, or might he in a glimmer of 
humanity, have a moment of empathy for Harry, not unlike how he perhaps did when he 
learned of Harry being abused as a child.   

And might it turn out that at some point Harry will be able to understand Snape, for the 
first time, because of his own experience of having to hide his true mission, and suffering 
the derision of others while in the act of doing what is right rather that what will achieve 
immediate public acclaim.

I suspect so.





From adanabbett at adanabbett.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 17:27:48 2005
From: adanabbett at adanabbett.yahoo.invalid (Adan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:27:48 -0000
Subject: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <4A9DE926-6D8E-4FF3-AB4B-AECCAA08E30D@...>
Message-ID: <dcdouk+56fm@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

*Snippage of wonderful locket logic*
 
> This nifty bit of spellwork tends to militate against Reggy - he 
was younger than Sirius, no more than very early 20s at most. Would 
he have the power, the knowledge, the experience to set it all up? 
Maybe - if he had help. Dear old dad, perhaps? He's a fan of Dark 
Magic.
> 
> The alternative is that Voldy set up all that protection, and when  
> some little gofer drops the locket in the bird-bath it somehow 
causes the spells to activate. But why? Why would Voldy hide this 
particular artifact behind a screen of Dark Magic? Is it special? And 
would the spells activate for a fake?
> 
> In any event, would Voldy trust a beginner-DE (if it was Reggie) 
to perform this important errand unsupervised? That doesn't sound 
like Voldy, he'd use someone he trusted. (See below for a canon hint 
that this was what he intended but his 'trusted' hench-wizards - 
Bella and Lucius -may have cocked it up somehow.)

*more snippage*
> 
> Kneasy

Just like everyone else, I've been giving this some thought here's my 
theory as it stands now: RAB was the DE that Voldemort ordered to 
place the locket in the cave.  It could have even been PFC Reggie, 
done as a test.  But, since this was so important, LV didn't have him 
go it alone.  He *did* have supervision.  Perhaps one of his trusted, 
with a small unit DEs (and RAB), trekked to the already completely 
enchanted cave to drop in the locket.  RAB, having decided that being 
a lackey wasn't all that great, had switched the lockets in a spare 
minute alone.  They place the locket and the burglar alarm activates.

Unfortunately for the squad, they didn't know it was a one-way trip.  
Those inferi had to come from some where and I don't think they added 
them later.  I think they were DEs that died for their master, 
willingly or not.

As to why the cave, why dark magic...  Perhaps this was the one he 
thought never to be found.  Who would even know the existance of that 
cave?  LV, the two kids (probably muggle), Mrs. Cole (a muggle), and 
that darned DD.

Adan, who also likes to think RAB stands for Remus and Bob.





From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 18:34:34 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:34:34 -0000
Subject: Gotta Light? (was His Little Helper
In-Reply-To: <dccj5r+ermm@...>
Message-ID: <dcdsrq+g041@...>

Talisman wrote:

> How's this, just for fun. (Unless it comes to pass, in which case, I 
> mean it quite in earnest. <g>)
> 
> Harry et al finally figure out that the locket is the one from 
> 12GP.  They question Kreature, find out he saved it from the trash, 
> and search his nest.  But, alas, it's not there.  
> 
> Of course they think of Dung (Kreature offers a suitable epithet) 
> but sticky-fingers has been keeping a low profile these days. 
> Moreover, there is no telling who may have the hot goods now--could 
> have been sold to any odd hag in the street, really. 
> 
> What to do?  Slim as their hopes seem, they ask around and do what 
> little they can to locate the musty perp. They're getting nowhere.
> 
> Then, one day, Harry stumbles into a back room--and--there he is: 
> slumped against the wall, his entire body burnt more completely than 
> DD's hand; the once putrid tobacco-boy now turned all to ash and--in 
> one charred hand--the open locket.

Neri:
Or, how about this alternative scenario:

After the OotP Christmas feast, before Kreacher was back from his
holidays visit at the Malfoys, Sirius decided to raid and clean
Kreacher's nest. He found the locket there, but this time instead of
discarding it he decided to stow it in his vault at Gringots. Gold is
gold, after all, and Sirius perhaps was just preparing his new will,
and he thought it would be nicely ironic if the Black riches would all
go to half-blood Harry. Of course, Sirius couldn't go to Gringots
himself to deposit the locket, so he asked another Order member to do
it for him. For plot purposes this Order member would be Emmeline
Vance, or any other Order member who's already dead and buried by Book
7. After Sirius demise, as DD explains in HBP Ch. 3, all the content
of his vault was automatically transferred to Harry's vault.

So in Book 7, the Trio spends two chapters figuring out that RAB is
Regulus Black, then another chapter to question Kreacher, but Kreacher
says the locket disappeared from his nest. Another chapter to figure
out it might be Dung who stole it, and another three chapters chasing
down Dung who, being guilty of other thefts, runs like hell. When
finally caught he swears he never saw a locket and they don't know if
to believe him. A nice conflict and moral dilemma ensues, probably
Harry (who wants to crucio Dung) and Hermione (who believes him)
having a shouting match while poor Ron is stuck between them. The
other horcruxes were all located and destroyed by now and it's time
for the final match. Then Harry needs some gold from Gringots, and it
turns out the locket was in his own vault all this time. Oh, the irony.

Neri 







From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 19:07:34 2005
From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:07:34 -0000
Subject: Soul suction (Re: Those dam Hordevours!)
In-Reply-To: <dcck8t+q23n@...>
Message-ID: <dcdupm+5cni@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:> 
> 
> Talisman, catching a whiff of that naughty spicy ginger goulash:
> 
> ::delightfully creepy shudder:: 
> Snogging with a dementor? Be gentle darling, and only take a 
little? 
> 
> And, speaking of dementor sex, how about that clammy mist being 
some 
> sort of reproductive emission?  Guess we HAD better put on our 
> raincoats, eh?
> 

Not to keep an icky subject going or anything, but I do wish 
somebody'd asked JKR how dementors breed.  If their kiss sucks the 
soul right out, what the heck does bumping naughties do?  Of course 
presumably they're breeding with *each other*, but that just makes it 
all the more mystifying.  And icky.  

kimberly, wondering can you wash out your brain without getting 
brainwashed?






From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 20:37:12 2005
From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:37:12 -0000
Subject: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcdkmh+9o68@...>
Message-ID: <dce41o+50dh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" 
<carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote:

A whole bunch of stuff about lockets, upon which I reflect: 
> 
> On lockets, don't forget the other two given to Ron and Molly at 
> Christmas. Just JKR's little joke, I'm sure.

Just a note:  Neither of these is specified as lockets, just golden 
necklaces.  In fact, Ron's is pretty well described as something 
other than a locket.  In fact had it been a locket I'm sure we'd have 
been treated to a description of Lavendar's picture blowing kisses 
from within.  Hee!

<snip>

> I do think there 
> are substantive problems with the cave aspect of the heist. Of 
> course, if you are meta-thinking, JKR will find a solution to them, 
> but nevertheless they seem to cry out for our attention now.
> 
> 1) What is the point of replacing the locket with an imitation one, 
> and replacing the potion after emptying out the first lot? The 
note, 
> yes, can understand that. RAB wants Voldie to know he did it. But 
the 
> rest of it just seems ..superfluous. Why not just concentrate on 
> getting the hell out of there and destroying what he's found, since 
> judging by DD, RAB has only a very, very short time to live?

Maybe the locket was replaced sort of like how Indiana Jones had to 
put that back of sand in place of the idol he stole out of the cave.  
Very possibly it worked out for Reggie just as poorly as it did for 
Indy, but he had to try.  Plus, points for flair, what with the 
cheeky note inside.  As for the potion, I'm thinking it's self-
filling, which is why it took so long to drink it up - like running 
up an escalator?  That would explain it being full after the original 
locket had been removed - not because the theif brought along or made 
more potion, but because it refilled itself.

> 
> 2) And RAB didn't destroy it, did he? Shades of the One Ring? It 
> wouldn't let him? Didn't have the power to do it, and/or was 
murdered 
> before he found out how to destroy it?

I just don't think he knew howe yet.  It is, after all, advanced dark 
magic that the nastiest book at Hogwarts refuses to discuss.  I do 
assume he died before he succeeded, but who knows?

 
> 3) Plus, not for the first time, I am puzzled by Lord V's 
ineptitude. 
> DD says: `[he] would not want to kill the person who reached this 
> island.' `He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out 
> how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences 
'
> 
> So far as we can understand it, this has now happened twice, and 
> although both the intruders have died, Lord V hasn't the slightest 
> idea who they are, or even that they have nicked his precioussss. 
So, 
> is DD lying?

Yeah, no idea, there.  Also not sure, however, that the potion 
necessarily kills.  After all, bezoars are the new polyjuice.

> 
> 4) Alternatively, let's assume that Lord V is not so incompetent. 
> Surely, the very first thing he would do after being rebodied is do 
a 
> little tour of his horrockses. He finds out that the diary is 
> destroyed, and Lucius is suitably punished, but presumably all the 
> rest past muster. How can this false locket fool him, since he of 
all 
> people must be able to know the real thing, and obviously the 
potion 
> would be no barrier to him? Do we really believe that he took a 
quick 
> look at the green surface and didn't check further, or couldn't 
> actually sense whether or not his own soul was in there? The only 
> possible explanation would be that the locket was still ok that 
> summer of 1995, and has been subsequently swapped.

There's no reason to suspect so far that he took the time to check up 
on his corpuscles, though.  We know he's pretty pleased with himself, 
he probably doubted anybody would find or be able to get to them.  
Besides, there's a reason you make multiples.  Bound to always be a 
spare.  

> 
> Kneasy:
> Then there's the whole Cave set-up.
> What's it for?
> The Diary wasn't surrounded by no-touch spells, nor presumably was 
> the ring with the black stone, nor (if the theorisers are correct) 
is 
> the Tom Riddle Cup in the Trophy Room. Only when their contents are 
> accessed do the spells appear. Why should the locket be different?

I'm thinking the Diary wasn't protected because it was of a different 
sort - it was meant to be used for other purposes, altogether aside 
from being a sparkplug.  Also, being his first attempt, it's maybe 
natural that it would be less sophisitcated, but I don't think that 
indicates necessarily that the other hockeypucks won't be protected 
more like the locket.  Seems like there were some protections on the 
ring.  Talk of DD's diminished reaction time or reflexes or whatever 
it was make more sense if he hurt himself retrieving it than if he 
was hurt destroying it, at least to me.

<snipping the rest so as not to go on forever>

Basically what I'm trying to say is, yeah, there's stuff that's not 
explained, but I don't think there are necessarily as many problems 
with the cave setup as all that. 

kimberly - using a lot of words to say very little






From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 21:14:42 2005
From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:14:42 -0000
Subject: Those dam Hordevours!
In-Reply-To: <dcdms1+l4qr@...>
Message-ID: <dce682+mg0s@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <josturgess at e...> 
wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at j...> wrote:
>   
> > <snip>
> > However, I was just talking to a friend, and she said that 
perhaps 
> > the murder isn't what makes the horcrux so evil.  What makes it 
so 
> > evil, maybe, is how it permanently separates the soul -- she 
> compared 
> > it to selling your soul to the devil.  So, that is another 
> > possibility.
> > 
> yep, that's how I see it. Once that little bit of soul is parked 
> elsewhere the whole cannot be 'saved', not only is it using the 
> damage inflicted by a terrible act for personal gain but it is 
> denying any possibility of healing and redemption.

I think this is exactly it.  We know how JKR feels about choices.  
The existence of ghosts and dementors and doorknuckles, and 
Dumbledore's great quote about the next great adventure are pretty 
clear indications that Harry's is a world in which there is an 
afterlife.  I may be projecting my own beliefs somewhat, but since 
JKR said she didn't think the books were completely secular, I don't 
think it's too wild of a guess to think that said afterlife involves 
some sort of either karma or judgement or something, so taking 
advantage of having done murder to take one's soul apart in order to 
avoid the afterlife altogether is definitely making a choice that 
would tend to rule out anything like repentance.  Why repent if you 
don't plan on ever having to face your maker, or whatever.  

So I'd say yeah, that's probably why most nice folks aren't so fond 
of hoarfrosts.  In other words, me too!

kimberly





From timregan at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 21:19:53 2005
From: timregan at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:19:53 +0100
Subject: Horcrux thriller
Message-ID: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02211E63@...>

Hi All,

I think I know who the human whorecrotch is, and it is not Harry. Let's
examine the evidence

1) Having part of the soul of the Dark Lord residing inside you would
drain you of your vitality and color.
2) Voldemort's meddling in his own soul reduced his once handsome
features to "glaring red eyes and slits for nostrils" (PS/SS C17)
3) Voldemort's sense of grandeur and destiny would start to take over
your own judgements.

In short, one of Voldemort's horcruxes is Michael Jackson.

Cheers,

Dumbledad.



From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jul 29 22:45:00 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:45:00 -0000
Subject: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcdkmh+9o68@...>
Message-ID: <dcebhc+qil9@...>

> Carolyn:
> 1) What is the point of replacing the locket with an imitation 
one, and replacing the potion after emptying out the first lot? The 
note, yes, can understand that. RAB wants Voldie to know he did it. 
But the rest of it just seems ..superfluous. Why not just 
concentrate on getting the hell out of there and destroying what 
he's found, since judging by DD, RAB has only a very, very short 
time to live?

Dungrollin:
If some very clever person managed to find the cave, get through 
what appeared to be a solid wall, find the very cunningly hidden 
boat, get across the lake and swallow all of the potion, but then 
got hauled into the drink by the inferi, Voldy wouldn't want another 
very clever person to get across the lake and just be able to pinch 
the locket without having to drink the potion. I'd assume he put a 
refilling charm on it.

Carolyn:
> 3) Plus, not for the first time, I am puzzled by Lord V's 
ineptitude. 
> DD says: `[he] would not want to kill the person who reached this 
> island.' `He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out 
> how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences 
'
> 
> So far as we can understand it, this has now happened twice, and 
> although both the intruders have died, Lord V hasn't the slightest 
> idea who they are, or even that they have nicked his precioussss. 
So, is DD lying?
 
Dungrollin:
Yup. Or he's making a mistake. I think he's lying, though. Seems 
highly unlikely that Voldy would be able to get information once 
someone's been ripped to shreds by inferi. Voldy's arrogant, he 
thinks in terms of his kind of magical power. If somebody had found 
out about the Hogrollocks and was trying to destroy them, he'd 
assume it would be a worthy challenger, a powerful dark wizard who 
worked alone, like him.

Voldy set up those defences himself, if there's a way through them, 
he knows it. Why would he risk keeping such a powerful potential 
enemy alive? I don't think he would.

Carolyn:
> 4) Alternatively, let's assume that Lord V is not so incompetent. 
> Surely, the very first thing he would do after being rebodied is 
do a little tour of his horrockses. He finds out that the diary is 
> destroyed, and Lucius is suitably punished, but presumably all the 
> rest past muster. How can this false locket fool him, since he of 
all people must be able to know the real thing, and obviously the 
potion would be no barrier to him? Do we really believe that he took 
a quick look at the green surface and didn't check further, or 
couldn't actually sense whether or not his own soul was in there? 
The only possible explanation would be that the locket was still ok 
that summer of 1995, and has been subsequently swapped.

Dungrollin:
The potion would be a barrier to him, because his body was not 
immortal. It would have killed his body and reduced him to Vapour!
Mort (again). I don't see why he couldn't have taken along a handy 
Muggle to force-feed it to though.


> Kneasy:
> Then there's the whole Cave set-up.
> What's it for?
> The Diary wasn't surrounded by no-touch spells, nor presumably was 
> the ring with the black stone, nor (if the theorisers are correct) 
is the Tom Riddle Cup in the Trophy Room. Only when their contents 
are accessed do the spells appear. Why should the locket be 
different?
> 

Dungrollin:
I think the Peverell ring *was* surrounded by protections, and that 
was what nuked DD's hand. I don't think it was destruction of the 
Hotcakes that did that. DD was wearing the ring, and he had a 
blackened hand in Chapter 3. In chapter 2 Snape mentions DD being 
injured because of slow reactions. At the end of chapter 10, DD and 
Harry's first trip into the pensieve, we get this bit about the ring:

"But how come -? Have you always had it?"
"No, I acquired it very recently," said Dumbledore. "A few days 
before I came to fetch you from your aunt and uncle's, in fact."
"That would be around the time you injured your hand, then, sir?"
"Around that time, yes, Harry."
(p204 UK ed.)

Then, at the end of chapter 13:

"The ring's gone," said Harry, looking around. "But I thought you 
might have the mouth-organ or something."
(p260 UK ed.)

Then in chapter 23:

"You are forgetting ... you have already destroyed one of them. And 
I have destroyed another."
"You have?" said Harry eagerly.
"Yes indeed," said Dumbledore, and he raised his blackened, burned-
looking hand. "The ring, Harry. Marvolo's ring. And a terrible curse 
there was upon it too. Had it not been ? forgive me the lack of 
seemly modesty ? for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor 
Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately 
injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale. However, a 
withered hand does not seem an unreasonable exchange for a seventh 
of Voldemort's soul. The ring is no longer a Hamsandwitch."
(p470-1 UK ed.)

Now, admittedly, that doesn't outright tell us whether DD tried to 
destroy the Hedgecrack as soon as he found it, or whether he got 
injured finding it, and brought it back and destroyed it later, but 
I think both interpretations are valid. And the fact that the ring 
disappears at some point suggests that that was the point at which 
it was destroyed.

He continues about the ring:
"He hid it, protected by many powerful enchantments, in the shack 
where his ancestors had once lived." Protected by enchantments and 
with a hand-nukingly powerful curse on it (? la Opal necklace wot 
nearly got Katie Bell), I reckon. 

Kneasy:
> In any event, would Voldy trust a beginner-DE (if it was Reggie)
to perform this important errand unsupervised? That doesn't sound
like Voldy, he'd use someone he trusted. (See below for a canon hint
that this was what he intended but his 'trusted' hench-wizards -
Bella and Lucius -may have cocked it up somehow.)
 
Dungrollin:
Voldy got hold of the locket while he was working for Borgin and 
Burkes, ten years before he came back to ask DD for the DADA job. In 
the interview with DD, Harry notes that Tom's features were waxy, 
burned and blurred, suggesting he'd made a Hoatzin or two in the 
intervening time. We don't have a date for Tom leaving Borgin and 
Burkes, nor do we have a date for the interview with DD (I don't 
think it can be figured out, correct me if I'm wrong). 

I doubt that he could have worked for B&B for more than five years, 
or Harry would have noticed the difference in his age in the Hokey 
memory of Hepzibah Smith. So the interview with DD takes place at 
the latest in about 1960. Why would he then wait 20 years to install 
the locket in the cave? DD says "It seemed that once Voldemort had 
succeeded in sealing a piece of his soul inside it [the ring], he 
did not want to wear it any more. He hid it, protected by many 
powerful enchantments, in the shack where his ancestors had once 
lived..." This is supported by no mention of Voldy wearing the ring 
in the DD interview. I don't see why he would have waited with the 
locket.

Which means we're back to Regulus being clever, or being helped by 
someone cleverer who didn't necessarily want their name on the note. 

Hmm.

Dungrollin






From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 00:15:43 2005
From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:15:43 -0000
Subject: Coward Harry, Coward Snape...
In-Reply-To: <dcdokl+kl1r@...>
Message-ID: <dcegrf+rbal@...>

Lyn: "Harry may be the only one other than LV who knows the whole
story of the Horcruxes. To that extent, it means that only he knows he
cannot try to kill LV until all the HX's are destroyed."

I'd amend that to Harry can't kill LV **once and for all** until all
the Horcruxes are destroyed.

Lyn: "So is it not likely that a point will come in 7 when the "chosen
one" will have an opportunity to fight LV, in public view, and he will
have to back down, indeed perhaps run away--for reasons only he will
understand. And isn't it likely that will lead to Harry being branded
a coward, perhaps even by many closest to him."

Harry can still fight LV if he must, but he'd be better advised to run
away until he can destroy LV for good. It's a fool that doesn't
withdraw when it's strategic to do so.  Only Harry's detractors would
say anything against him for it.  His closest friends would know why,
anyway.

This will not happen, but suppose that Harry was somehow able to
destroy LV's body once more before destroying the other Horcruxes.
Even though LV still has Horcruxes, he may not know where they are; he
will have lost his body again; he will have lost yet another piece of
his soul. It would be a huge defeat and make his ultimate destruction
easier.

Lyn: "And might it turn out that at some point Harry will be able to
understand Snape, for the first time, because of his own experience of
having to hide his true mission, and suffering the derision of others
while in the act of doing what is right rather that what will achieve
immediate public acclaim."

I don't buy the SecretMission!Snape idea. Harry understands one thing:
he wants Snape dead.

Jim Ferer






From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 01:08:20 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:08:20 -0000
Subject: Coward Harry, Coward Snape...
In-Reply-To: <dcegrf+rbal@...>
Message-ID: <dceju4+r6io@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
>snip> 
> Lyn: "And might it turn out that at some point Harry will be able to
> understand Snape, for the first time, because of his own experience of
> having to hide his true mission, and suffering the derision of others
> while in the act of doing what is right rather that what will achieve
> immediate public acclaim."
> 
> I don't buy the SecretMission!Snape idea. Harry understands one thing:
> he wants Snape dead.
> 
> Jim Ferer

Lyn now:
Agreed, about wanting Snape dead.  Of course, that "some point Harry will be able to 
understand" may only occur after Snape is dead. Indeed, I think that is quite likely. But I 
also wouldn't be surprised if Snape gets a chance to perceive another view of Harry before 
his death. 

Hopefully JKR will stay alive to finish this and  we'll all be alive to find out. 





From adanabbett at adanabbett.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 01:46:24 2005
From: adanabbett at adanabbett.yahoo.invalid (Adan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:46:24 -0000
Subject: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcdouk+56fm@...>
Message-ID: <dcem5g+4rfh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Adan" <adanabbett at y...> wrote:
> Just like everyone else, I've been giving this some thought here's 
my theory as it stands now: RAB was the DE that Voldemort ordered to 
> place the locket in the cave.  It could have even been PFC Reggie, 
> done as a test.  But, since this was so important, LV didn't have 
him go it alone.  He *did* have supervision.  Perhaps one of his 
trusted, with a small unit DEs (and RAB), trekked to the already 
completely enchanted cave to drop in the locket.  RAB, having decided 
that being a lackey wasn't all that great, had switched the lockets 
in a spare minute alone.  They place the locket and the burglar alarm 
activates.
> 
> Unfortunately for the squad, they didn't know it was a one-way 
trip.  Those inferi had to come from some where and I don't think 
they added them later.  I think they were DEs that died for their 
master, willingly or not.
> 

Adan, talking to herself:
I really should know better than to post with only one full 
readthrough of HBP and without having even that with me for 
reference.  So, guess who just got through the cave sequence on the 
audio book during the drive home?  

So, I found some holes in my own theory.  There were more inferi in 
that lake than just one small squad.  And there were women and 
children.  Where did all these 'people' come from?  I still think the 
placement of the locket could have been a one-way trip, though.

Adan, who really wishes she could edit the original post






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 03:05:58 2005
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:05:58 -0000
Subject: Ewww   re: the Inferi in the cave
Message-ID: <dceqqm+o5b3@...>

Judy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_ol
d_crowd/message/2625 :

<< By the way, although it would be nice if my theory were right, I
must confess that there is support for another, later, version of
Ewww, in which Pettigrew is the guy who wanted Lily. >>

And SO EWWW ITS IN THE SEWER, in which Voldie wanted Lily to bear him
a son, presumably because he'd heard a prophecy that Lily Potter's son
would win the war for his father's side.

Adan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_ol
d_crowd/message/2672 :

<< There were more inferi in that lake than just one small squad. And
there were women and children. Where did all these 'people' come
from? >> 

Since the Inferi are corpses, could he have Accio'ed all the corpses
in the sea, who were shipwrecked or washed away by floods or whatever?
When were those ro-ro ferry disasters?





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 07:20:59 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:20:59 -0000
Subject: Horcrux thriller
In-Reply-To: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02211E63@...>
Message-ID: <dcf9or+q6l7@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" <timregan at m...> 
wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I think I know who the human whorecrotch is, and it is not Harry. 
Let's
> examine the evidence
> 
> 1) Having part of the soul of the Dark Lord residing inside you would
> drain you of your vitality and color.
> 2) Voldemort's meddling in his own soul reduced his once handsome
> features to "glaring red eyes and slits for nostrils" (PS/SS C17)
> 3) Voldemort's sense of grandeur and destiny would start to take over
> your own judgements.
> 
> In short, one of Voldemort's horcruxes is Michael Jackson.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dumbledad.

Ginger sighs, 
Thanks a lot, I'll never again read the scene where Harry fights the 
Inferi without imagining them dancing to Thriller.  Oooh, filk bunny.

Actually, if you go to to CMC's filk site, and go to Abe's Babes, 
you'll find out who Michael Jackson really is.

Ginger, doggiesitting a dog named Jackson this weekend.





From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 07:24:27 2005
From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:24:27 -0000
Subject: Soul suction (Re: Those dam Hordevours!)
In-Reply-To: <dcdupm+5cni@...>
Message-ID: <dcf9vb+kaq0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" 
<talisman22457 at y...> 
> wrote:> 
> > 
> > Talisman, catching a whiff of that naughty spicy ginger goulash:
> > 
> > ::delightfully creepy shudder:: 
> > Snogging with a dementor? Be gentle darling, and only take a 
> little? 
> > 
> > And, speaking of dementor sex, how about that clammy mist being 
> some 
> > sort of reproductive emission?  Guess we HAD better put on our 
> > raincoats, eh?
> > 

Kimberly added:
> Not to keep an icky subject going or anything, but I do wish 
> somebody'd asked JKR how dementors breed.  If their kiss sucks the 
> soul right out, what the heck does bumping naughties do?  Of course 
> presumably they're breeding with *each other*, but that just makes 
it 
> all the more mystifying.  And icky.  

Ginger wonders:
What if the mist was some sort of reproductive birth control?  In 
which case, the breeding is mist-defying.






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 07:52:01 2005
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:52:01 -0000
Subject: Coward Harry, Coward Snape...
In-Reply-To: <dcegrf+rbal@...>
Message-ID: <dcfbj1+1cjl@...>

> Lyn: "And might it turn out that at some point Harry will be able to
> understand Snape, for the first time, because of his own experience
of having to hide his true mission, and suffering the derision of
others while in the act of doing what is right rather that what will
achieve immediate public acclaim."

Jim Ferer: 
> I don't buy the SecretMission!Snape idea. Harry understands one
thing: he wants Snape dead.
> 

Pippin:
According to the late AD, very often, the things we want most are the 
worst for us. (Can't quote exactly, my books being 8 time zones away.)
I think what Harry and Snape really have to understand is that
despite their embittered history and all the rights and wrongs on
both sides,  Snape is just as much Dumbledore's man as Harry is and 
vice versa.

Pippin
happy to report from Accio that Snape has been acquitted of all
charges






From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 09:08:01 2005
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:08:01 -0000
Subject: INIT obvious?
Message-ID: <dcfg1h+elaq@...>

Following JKR's comment in a recent interview that she views some 
hints as `anvil sized' I consulted some old books to see if there 
was a standard against which clues can be assesed.

In `Mystery Measured' by Prof Carmine Clupeidae I found the 
following which members of this group may find useful.

Implied Narrator Intent Table

Cannon         
100% Purity of intent              
Affect on speculative theory: Total destruction.

Anvil          
80% Purity of intent               
Affect on speculative theory: Extremely large holes, limited 
repetition can sink theory or cause confusion.

Sack           
60% Purity of intent            
Affect on speculative theory: Minimal damage unless filled with 
nails (see below) however theory requires disguise, blind spot or 
plugging of leaks.

Quart          
40% Purity of intent            
Affect on speculative theory: Douses enthusiasm.

Tod            
20% Purity of intent 
Affect on speculative theory: Usually found in multiples requires 
fancy footwork to avoid damage (AKA the Terpsichore Tap).

Nail
10% Purity of intent 
Affect on speculative theory: Limited damage in isolation, large 
numbers can be terminal either when combined with a sack (see above) 
or by repetition (e.g. another nail in
)

Dram
0% Purity of intent 
Affect on speculative theory: No damage whatsoever but likelihood of 
a headache in the morning.

Regards
Jo






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 10:31:14 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:31:14 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcebhc+qil9@...>
Message-ID: <dcfkti+f57d@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" <spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
> 
> Dungrollin:
> I think the Peverell ring *was* surrounded by protections, and that 
> was what nuked DD's hand. I don't think it was destruction of the 
> Hotcakes that did that. 
> snip>
> 
> "You are forgetting ... you have already destroyed one of them. And 
> I have destroyed another."
> "You have?" said Harry eagerly.
> "Yes indeed," said Dumbledore, and he raised his blackened, burned-
> looking hand. "The ring, Harry. Marvolo's ring. And a terrible curse 
> there was upon it too. Had it not been ? forgive me the lack of 
> seemly modesty ? for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor 
> Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately 
> injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale. However, a 
> withered hand does not seem an unreasonable exchange for a seventh 
> of Voldemort's soul. The ring is no longer a Hamsandwitch."
> (p470-1 UK ed.)
> snip>
> 
> He continues about the ring:
> "He hid it, protected by many powerful enchantments, in the shack 
> where his ancestors had once lived." Protected by enchantments and 
> with a hand-nukingly powerful curse on it (? la Opal necklace wot 
> nearly got Katie Bell), I reckon. 
> 

I see what you're getting at, but the potential for a *really* big BANG
becomes possible if DD's words aren't taken quite so literally.
And I do like bangs. Yummy!

Protection, when applied to Horscrax could be one of two types -
might even be both, but two can  be posited:
What can be termed 'external' protection, intended to prevent
unworthy folk from laying hands on the item -- as per the Cave,
and
'Internal' protection that safe-guards the contents of the Hiscroks
as per the Diary.

There was nothing to stop anyone handling the Diary, but Diary!Tom
was powerful magic indeed. It took a Basilisk tooth to destroy him.
It might be that this is what happened with the ring, that once found
anyone could pick it up but delving into it to get at the soul fragment
would give you a really bad hair day.

As a sort of confirmation there're are strong hints that in the right
circumstances the contents of these Harecuts could develop into
something very like Voldy clones by hi-jacking the life-force of any
poor bastard who meddled too much - this being the planned fate for
Ginny when Diary!Tom was in his pomp. Seems reasonable to assume 
that anyone finding the ring and wearing it would suffer a similar fate.
Of course Voldy would only be interested in leeching onto someone
with magical powers, he'd not be interested in snaring a Muggle, so a
searcher would need to demonstrate magical abilities to find the damn
thing in the first place, otherwise any stray bod from Little Hangleton
might pick it up if they came across the Gaunt hovel while strolling 
through the woods.

Consequently giving the GP locket (if it is a Horsecrooks) to your 
beloved to wear might be a very bad move. Dear oh dear. Not only
would she waste away but there'd be this very unfriendly stranger
wandering around the kitchen, planning world domination and who 
knows what else. Breakfast would never be the same.

Supposedly, Voldy survives while even one of these split ends is
extant. But not only are they a safety feature they also have the potential
to become new Voldys if the conditions are right. If so it'd be self-
defeating to hide them in places where they're unable to come into
contact with a victim. It's this line of reasoning that makes me wonder
what all that stuff in the Cave was about.

Now - the BANGY bit.
Cunning this, I think you'll agree.

If Harry is a Hearseclucks then if he ain't careful then he could become
another Voldy - and Voldy planned it this way. There's this sprog who's
equal to Voldy - fine, why not make him into another Voldy? Then if one
day it's High Noon on Hogsmead High Street, wands akimbo, Harry wins
and Voldy bites the dust, then Voldy still survives in Harry. Voldy wins no
matter which corpse gets dragged off to Boot Hill. And he planned it this
way right back at GH. Ooh! Nasty! Talk about hedging your bets! 'Bout
time Voldy lived up to his reputation of a perverted mastermind, and
this would do it with bells on.

Voldy is in a win-win situation. He can't lose - even if the other Hurskroks
are destroyed - unless Harry can get the Voldy fragment out of his head. 
If he can't then Voldy will eventually take him over. DD knew this - hence 
the ".. in essence divided?" enquiry - there was a danger that it might have 
already begun when Harry was linked to the Voldy mind.

Since eliminating a Whorescluck seems to require nothing short of 
destruction Harry would seem slated for the chop.
Poor Harry.

Kneasy






From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 11:41:30 2005
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:41:30 -0000
Subject: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcem5g+4rfh@...>
Message-ID: <dcfp1a+d3g2@...>

 
> Adan, talking to herself:
 
> So, I found some holes in my own theory.  There were more inferi in 
> that lake than just one small squad.  And there were women and 
> children.  Where did all these 'people' come from?  I still think the 
> placement of the locket could have been a one-way trip, though.
> 
> Adan, who really wishes she could edit the original post

Kathy W:
So LV arranges to put the horcrux in the middle of Lake Inferior 
(That's a US geography pun)He's killed lots of people, and we know from 
the earlier books that many people, Magic Folk and Muggles were missing 
in LV's first reign. That's where they came from. I don't think it's a 
stretch that some junior DEs were added.

It still makes more sense to me that RAB, whether or not he made it 
out, switched the locket before it was placed in the cave. And I think 
Kneasy is right. Bella was in charge of the mission. That might give 
more weight to RAB as Reggie. Maybe Bella was too trustful of her good 
little cousin. On the other hand, if she was in charge, it may be less 
likely that Reggie became soup.

Potioncat





From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 13:50:43 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:50:43 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcfkti+f57d@...>
Message-ID: <dcg0jj+qc9h@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" 
<spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:

Kneasy:
Supposedly, Voldy survives while even one of these split ends is
extant. But not only are they a safety feature they also have the 
potential to become new Voldys if the conditions are right. If so 
it'd be self-defeating to hide them in places where they're unable to 
come into contact with a victim. It's this line of reasoning that 
makes me wonder what all that stuff in the Cave was about.

Carolyn:
Now this is very clear thinking. What we pay you for.

If we link it to Kathy's idea:

Potioncat:
It still makes more sense to me that RAB, whether or not he made it
out, switched the locket before it was placed in the cave.

Carolyn:
...a few things fall into place.

It is, of course, nonsense that a junior DE could discover the cave, 
steal the real locket or replace the potion unaided, let alone 
destroy the thing. Also pointless have to a self-refilling bird bath 
if all it does is conceal a priceless theft from the owner.

So, let's quit imagining that Regulus is some sort of unsung hero, 
and let's start thinking he was allowed to make the attempt, for the 
sole purpose of moving the real locket to where it could potentially 
take over a suitable victim.

For this to work, any one of the suggested scenarios can take place - 
Kreacher helps him, Voldy takes him along as a little helper for some 
sort of ritual buffing up of the heirlooms, whatever. Regulus 
staggers out in shock, clutching his swag, thinking his daft little 
plan has worked. He has just time to get back to 12GP before either 
dying of the potion Voldy made him drink, or being otherwise murdered 
by a henchperson.

Voldy now couldn't give tuppence who makes it to the cave, with the 
added warm feeling about what will happen to them if they are too 
clever by half and attempt to drink the potion. It may even be a 
protection designed specifically to target DD, as the only 
conceivable person who might get that far.

All he cares about is that the locket, like the One Ring, is lurking 
happily on a shelf somewhere in a bona fide DE household, waiting for 
someone to be tempted to pick it up and put it on.

Could be that Voldy even knew that Bella was due to inherit should 
Sirius snuff it. Might have been what she was referring to in Chapter 
2, that he'd promised her something. 

Definitely looks like a tussle of will-power between Harry and Bella 
over control of Kreacher in Book 7 (who will have hidden the thing).


Carolyn







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 14:46:55 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:46:55 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcg0jj+qc9h@...>
Message-ID: <dcg3sv+85rc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" <carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote:
> All he cares about is that the locket, like the One Ring, is lurking 
> happily on a shelf somewhere in a bona fide DE household, waiting for 
> someone to be tempted to pick it up and put it on.
> 
> Could be that Voldy even knew that Bella was due to inherit should 
> Sirius snuff it. Might have been what she was referring to in Chapter 
> 2, that he'd promised her something. 
> 
> Definitely looks like a tussle of will-power between Harry and Bella 
> over control of Kreacher in Book 7 (who will have hidden the thing).
> 
> 

You stopped before coming to the punch-line.

Bella killed Reggy.
With Sirius fitted up for the Potter murders, languishing away in durance
vile, plus having been disinherited, who then gets the loot?

Bella. Darling Bella.

Bet she's already suborned Kreacher, he's got it tucked away nice and safe
ready for when she comes into her inheritance. But she doesn't. And
Kreacher can't act as a free agent, he's restricted in what he can do as
Harry is his master. Must be frustrating for all concerned.

But there's a Billywig in the unguent.
Dung is filling his pockets and Kreacher is at Hogwarts instead of guarding
the McGuffin.
Oops-a-daisy.
I see tears before bedtime.

Kneasy





From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 16:00:39 2005
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:00:39 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcfkti+f57d@...>
Message-ID: <dcg877+q8e0@...>

Kneasy wrote:
I see what you're getting at, but the potential for a *really* big 
BANG becomes possible if DD's words aren't taken quite so literally.
And I do like bangs. Yummy!

Protection, when applied to Horscrax could be one of two types -
might even be both, but two can be posited:
What can be termed 'external' protection, intended to prevent
unworthy folk from laying hands on the item -- as per the Cave,
and 'Internal' protection that safe-guards the contents of the 
Hiscroks as per the Diary.

There was nothing to stop anyone handling the Diary, but Diary!Tom
was powerful magic indeed. It took a Basilisk tooth to destroy him.
It might be that this is what happened with the ring, that once found
anyone could pick it up but delving into it to get at the soul 
fragment would give you a really bad hair day.

As a sort of confirmation there're are strong hints that in the right
circumstances the contents of these Harecuts could develop into
something very like Voldy clones by hi-jacking the life-force of any
poor bastard who meddled too much - this being the planned fate for
Ginny when Diary!Tom was in his pomp. Seems reasonable to assume
that anyone finding the ring and wearing it would suffer a similar 
fate.
Of course Voldy would only be interested in leeching onto someone
with magical powers, he'd not be interested in snaring a Muggle, so a
searcher would need to demonstrate magical abilities to find the damn
thing in the first place, otherwise any stray bod from Little 
Hangleton might pick it up if they came across the Gaunt hovel while 
strolling through the woods.

Consequently giving the GP locket (if it is a Horsecrooks) to your
beloved to wear might be a very bad move. Dear oh dear. Not only
would she waste away but there'd be this very unfriendly stranger
wandering around the kitchen, planning world domination and who
knows what else. Breakfast would never be the same.

Supposedly, Voldy survives while even one of these split ends is
extant. But not only are they a safety feature they also have the 
potential to become new Voldys if the conditions are right. If so 
it'd be self-defeating to hide them in places where they're unable 
to come into contact with a victim. It's this line of reasoning that 
makes me wonder what all that stuff in the Cave was about.

Dungrollin:
Hmm. I'm not convinced that any of the other Horsepox could do what 
the diary did, which is why the diary was left (as a weapon) with 
Lucius, and why the others (locket/ring etc) were hidden and 
protected (if poorly). 

DD again:
"But don't you see, Harry, that if he intended the diary to be 
passed to, or planted on, some future Hogwarts student, he was being 
remarkably blas? about that precious fragment of his soul concealed 
within it. The point of a Hogtruck is, as Professor Slughorn 
explained, to keep part of the self hidden and safe, not to fling it 
into somebody else's path and run the risk that they might destroy 
it ? as indeed happened..."
(Chapter 23: Hotduckses, p468 UK ed).

Tom didn't emerge from the diary because somebody was trying to 
destroy it, he was the weapon subroutine, not a defence. Neither did 
Harry get a withered arm (or a withered anything else ... withered 
withard wizard ? there's a gag in that...) when he plunged the 
Basilisk fang through it.

Moreover, why would Voldy want a load of extra Voldys popping up all 
over the place when he'd put his Headstucks into circulation? The 
Diary had a specific purpose: to reopen the CoS and complete 
Slytherin's spring-cleaning. If he wanted someone (unspecified 
random wizards, by the sounds of it) to get hold of the ring and the 
locket and become possessed by slivers of soul, why didn't he just 
make living horsemucks in the first place?


Kneasy:
Now - the BANGY bit.
Cunning this, I think you'll agree.

If Harry is a Hearseclucks then if he ain't careful then he could 
become another Voldy - and Voldy planned it this way. There's this 
sprog who's equal to Voldy - fine, why not make him into another 
Voldy? Then if one day it's High Noon on Hogsmead High Street, wands 
akimbo, Harry wins and Voldy bites the dust, then Voldy still 
survives in Harry. Voldy wins no matter which corpse gets dragged 
off to Boot Hill. And he planned it this way right back at GH. Ooh! 
Nasty! Talk about hedging your bets! 'Bout time Voldy lived up to 
his reputation of a perverted mastermind, and this would do it with 
bells on.

Voldy is in a win-win situation. He can't lose - even if the other 
Hurskroks are destroyed - unless Harry can get the Voldy fragment 
out of his head. If he can't then Voldy will eventually take him 
over. DD knew this ? hence the ".. in essence divided?" enquiry - 
there was a danger that it might have already begun when Harry was 
linked to the Voldy mind.

Since eliminating a Whorescluck seems to require nothing short of
destruction Harry would seem slated for the chop.
Poor Harry.

Kneasy


Dungrollin:
It is awfully tempting, now that we know about Hardlucks, to make it 
fit in with the powers transferred to Harry at GH, isn't it?

As I see it, our choices are:

1. Voldy decided to try to make Harry a Horsecrop, which is why he 
wanted to keep Lily alive (so he wouldn't have to do all that waking 
up in the middle of the night nonsense), but Lily wasn't 
cooperating, so he got rid of her. Turned his attention to Harry to 
perform the Headcrunch spell, which backfired due to Lily's 
protection, (mysteriously) managed to discorporate Voldy, and yet 
still worked, putting a bit of Voldy's soul into Harry. If Voldy 
*planned* to make Harry into a Hiprocks and succeeded, why does he 
keep trying to kill him? Makes even less sense than a back-firing AK 
IMO.

2. It didn't occur to Voldy that he could make Harry a Hornsnack, 
and just wanted to kill the one with the power to vanquish him, 
because that would be a stonkingly significant prophecy-defying 
murder, and his final Hercrudit?s would be very very special. (This 
is what DD thinks.)
If so, did he take the trinket he was going to use with him to GH? 
If he did, why was it not found in the ruins of the house? Or was he 
always planning for it to be Nagini, who slithered away when she 
realised things were not going according to plan?  
Anyway, Voldy AKs Harry, Lily's protection kicks in and the spell 
rebounds, destroying Voldy's body, loosing his shredded soul, a 
sliver of which (mysteriously) ends up in Harry, who is thus a 
Horsebox.

Neither makes any sense to me, yet Harry being a Herbgarden is such 
a tantalising idea...

Dungrollin
Hoping we're not going to spend the next few years discussing this, 
because she's running out of silly words.






From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 16:41:10 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:41:10 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcfkti+f57d@...>
Message-ID: <dcgaj6+a0q9@...>

> Kneasy wrote:
><Snipped>
> If Harry is a Hearseclucks then if he ain't careful then he could become
> another Voldy - and Voldy planned it this way. There's this sprog who's
> equal to Voldy - fine, why not make him into another Voldy? Then if one
> day it's High Noon on Hogsmead High Street, wands akimbo, Harry wins
> and Voldy bites the dust, then Voldy still survives in Harry. Voldy
wins no
> matter which corpse gets dragged off to Boot Hill. And he planned it
this
> way right back at GH. Ooh! Nasty! Talk about hedging your bets! 'Bout
> time Voldy lived up to his reputation of a perverted mastermind, and
> this would do it with bells on.
> 
> Voldy is in a win-win situation. He can't lose - even if the other
Hurskroks
> are destroyed - unless Harry can get the Voldy fragment out of his
head. 
> If he can't then Voldy will eventually take him over. DD knew this -
hence 
> the ".. in essence divided?" enquiry - there was a danger that it
might have 
> already begun when Harry was linked to the Voldy mind.
> 

Neri:
Naturally I like the possibility of Harrycrux. However, Voldy
intentionally making a Harry a Hx is problematic. First, it seems more
and more that Voldy indeed tried to AK baby Harry at GH, and why would
he AK a Hx he had just made?

You might say that Voldy didn't actually use an AK on Harry at GH,
because the echo of the AK didn't appear in the Priori Incantatum
sequence (although, as I wrote here before, the fact that the echoes
of Voldy's Cruciatus and Imperius in the graveyard also didn't appear
strongly supports the notion that failed curses don't count in Priori
Incantatem). You still have to explain, however, why the echo of the
Hx magic itself didn't appear. This you might counter by saying that
maybe the Hx magic doesn't require a wand. Fine, but this still
doesn't explain why, if there was never a rebounding AK, did Voldy
lose his body and was vaporized at GH. To use Jo Mooseming's
terminology, I'd estimate the above leaves the theory of Intentional
Harrycrux with two Quarts and a Sack, if not an outright Anvil.  

Now lets consider the much less problematic theory of Unintentional
Harrycrux: Voldy only intended to use the murder of the Potters to rip
what's remained of his soul for constructing his sixth and last Hx.
Maybe he planned to make Lily a living Hx and this is why he tried to
spare her, but this isn't necessary for the theory. Lily refuses to
step aside and Voldy decides to use something more reliable for a Hx,
maybe Nagini. So he AKs Lily and unknowingly activates the ancient
magic protection on Harry. Then he tries to AK baby Harry, the AK
rebounds and hits him. Voldy's body dies, but his soul is still
protected by all his previous Hxs. However, instead of a single soul
released into the air, *two* soul parts are released, because the
double murder he had just committed ripped Voldy's soul. The seventh
remaining part of Voldy flies to some forest in Albania to scheme his
return to power, but the sixth part, fluttering desperately around,
enters through the open gash in baby Harry's forehead into his mind.
Harry is now the sixth Hx.

There aren't any big problems that I can see with Unintentional
Harrycrux, but there are some interesting open questions:

1. Does Voldy know Harry is his sixth Hx? (not likely IMO, since he
tried killing Harry several times since GH, even after he discovered
about the mind connection between them).

2. Did DD know or guess, and if so why didn't he tell Harry?

3. How do The Gleam and Essence Divided can be fitted?

4. And of course, can Harry kill Voldy without sacrificing his own life?


Neri


 







From moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 20:10:16 2005
From: moongirlk at moongirlk.yahoo.invalid (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:10:16 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcg877+q8e0@...>
Message-ID: <dcgmr8+6g9s@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" 
<spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
> Kneasy wrote:<snip Kneasy's thoughts for the sake of length>

> Dungrollin:
> Hmm. I'm not convinced that any of the other Horsepox could do what 
> the diary did, which is why the diary was left (as a weapon) with 
> Lucius, and why the others (locket/ring etc) were hidden and 
> protected (if poorly). 

Dungrollin, we made the same points yesterday, and here you are 
again, expressing myself far more coherently than I ever do: 

<snip off all but the most key point>
> 
> Moreover, why would Voldy want a load of extra Voldys popping up 
all 
> over the place when he'd put his Headstucks into circulation? 

Me:
No way he would *intentionally* create spares of himself that can act 
independantly of the original.  They would basically be totally 
separate entities, his equal in magic and power (I assume, or what 
would be the point?), and with the same ambitions and nastiness, and 
would, therefore, set out immediately to get rid of the original.  
After all, we know he works alone, and doesn't want buddies.  So 
instead of just having to deal with that annoying Potter boy, he'd 
suddenly be at war with himself, and possibly more than one of 
himself.  And at varying ages, too, if the Riddle from the diary is 
any indication.  I doubt he'd want to fight his younger, fitter 
self.  

And horse-chuckin's not easy, if Sluggy's memory is any indication 
(which it might not be), so I don't think you could really just 
accidentally make one.

kimberly





From ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 21:40:18 2005
From: ewe2 at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:40:18 +1000
Subject: [the_old_crowd] A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcg3sv+85rc@...>
References: <dcg0jj+qc9h@...> <dcg3sv+85rc@...>
Message-ID: <20050730214017.GB5343@...>

On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 02:46:55PM -0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:

> Oops-a-daisy.
> I see tears before bedtime.

Wow. This thread is why I realized I'm a better cataloguer than poster. Very
clever thinking about Reggie, particularly because it totally dispenses with
imagined difficulties about the Cave, which JKR has an annoying tendency to
provide and then totally bypass.

Bella isn't the shy retiring type, I can't see her sitting back and actually
waiting for Kreacher to somehow provide the goods. She'll try on her own
behalf, perhaps from sneaky prodding by Voldy, who might want an unwitting
backup.

Alternatively Bella's haring off to claim the prize may introduce a happy
friction in the DE camp for possibly drawing little Harry out before the Big
Moment, and Snape may use the opportunity to off Bella and the locket
concurrently.

Somewhere in there Kreacher may put his icky foot in it, torn between duty and
hatred. Could lead to more DE sobbing....

ewe2

-- 
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage




From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jul 30 23:26:46 2005
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 23:26:46 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcgmr8+6g9s@...>
Message-ID: <dch2bm+7a9u@...>



Dungrollin:
> Hmm. I'm not convinced that any of the other Horsepox could do what
> the diary did, which is why the diary was left (as a weapon) with
> Lucius, and why the others (locket/ring etc) were hidden and
> protected (if poorly).


Dungrollin, we made the same points yesterday, and here you are
again, expressing myself far more coherently than I ever do:

<snip off all but the most key point>
>
> Moreover, why would Voldy want a load of extra Voldys popping up
all
> over the place when he'd put his Headstucks into circulation?

Kimberly:

No way he would *intentionally* create spares of himself that can act
independantly of the original. They would basically be totally
separate entities, his equal in magic and power (I assume, or what
would be the point?), and with the same ambitions and nastiness, and
would, therefore, set out immediately to get rid of the original.
After all, we know he works alone, and doesn't want buddies. So
instead of just having to deal with that annoying Potter boy, he'd
suddenly be at war with himself, and possibly more than one of
himself. And at varying ages, too, if the Riddle from the diary is
any indication. I doubt he'd want to fight his younger, fitter
self.

And horse-chuckin's not easy, if Sluggy's memory is any indication
(which it might not be), so I don't think you could really just
accidentally make one.


Snow:

JKR's website offers a bit of an information about the Diary-Horcrux:

"In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died 
and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?
I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it 
would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably."

Interesting that Diary!Tom would have strengthened the present-day 
Voldy, but how? Wouldn't they, like you said Kim, be two separate 
persons? Maybe the Horcrux reincarnation portion of Voldy seeks out 
its creator and rejoins him. 

Lets say that Nagini had been made keeper of a piece of Voldy-soul 
before his downfall. Vapormort went to Albania because that is where 
he had left his dear snaky-Horcrux in the likelihood that one day he 
may need to reconnect with a piece of his soul for rejuvenation. 
Young Tom tells Dumbledore that he can speak to snakes and that they 
seek him out (ahh young Tom's first playmates) so it would be fitting 
that he would allow a snake to guard a piece of his soul along with 
the fact that a snake is the emblem of his families heritage. 

The Horcrux!Nagini fed Vapormort transforming him into the snakelike 
babymort. Voldy was able to use Nagini to become something more than 
vapor but didn't have to physically join with the snake. Now if Diary!
Tom would have become fully realized would he have joined with his 
creator to make him stronger in a similar fashion to Nagini's 
helpfulness? Is Voldy, being the creator of the Horcrux's, the master 
controller of all remaining bits of soul that will do his bidding if 
someone or some thing unleashes the soul from its hiding place? 
 
I thought that the Horcrux was created as an immortality measure that 
simply prohibits the mother source of Voldy's soul to truly die
but 
it appears that these bits of soulcrux'es can be used to strengthen 
the creator as well if they are introduced to a human source (or 
soul) for rejuvenation. Ginny would have been the sacrificial soul 
that allowed the Horcrux of the Diary to become a living soul once 
more. 

What would have happened to Dumbledore if he had not taken the ring 
off and what would have happened to and for the Horcrux of the ring 
if Dumbledore had died as a result? Perhaps it would have been 
another version of Tom Riddle at whatever age he was at the time that 
he hid that particular piece of soul in the ring.
 
Could it be that the protections surrounding the Horcrux items are 
not protections for the Horcrux but a way in which to bring the bit 
of soul, which resides in the item, to life if it is tampered with? 
This type of protection insurance would kill the perpetrator thereby 
giving some type of life to the Horcrux. 

Snow 







From lunalovegood at tbernhard2000.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 03:46:24 2005
From: lunalovegood at tbernhard2000.yahoo.invalid (tbernhard2000)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:46:24 -0000
Subject: Heart Acts (WAS Re: HBP: thoughts...)
In-Reply-To: <001701c58f14$2593faa0$0200a8c0@hwin>
Message-ID: <dchhig+10jdf@...>

Kneasy wrote:
> > It's probably only from now on that not thinking before acting
will become quite literally a fatal error.... Tom at the same age -
Tom was always planning, looking for the edge. Calculation vs emotion.
The emotion tells Harry that instinctively he's right, but he should
have learned from the Sirius debacle that being 'right' emotionally
doesn't guarantee success. In fact it can have disasterous
consequences if you don't do your sums first. 

Aberforths Goat / Mike Gray wrote:
> While it was Harry's emotions that got him into the mess in OoP, it
was Harry's emotions that got him out of it, too.... I *think* she's
trying to say something else: his emotions are there, and there's a
lot of good in them. But they still aren't where they need to be. As
long as he keeps on *hating* people like Snape and Malfoy his bad
emotions are going to keep his good emotions from reaching their full
power.
> Case to point: if Harry had been able to apologize to Snape in OoP,
he might have had a huge breakthrough with Occlumency - and would
never have ended up in the Department of Mysteries. Hence the problem
wasn't that he didn't use his head enough but that he used his heart
the wrong way....I predict that something will happen that we force
him to empathize with one of them, which will lead to a breakthrough.

dan:
These are interesting ideas indeed, at the core of the matter. One
reads the books with a heart's logic, as it were, because that is how
the limited point of view that follows Harry takes us - that is how
Rowling takes us. In all Dumbledore's great investigations, it was
understanding the man Tom Riddle, it was that unrepetative, simple
understanding the person, that he most wanted to know, and teach, and
that lead him to the understanding of how to defeat Voldemort, so he
could pass that on to Harry. And it is understanding Tom, Snape and
Harry that is at the centre of Rowling's project.

It bodes ill for Snape, who maintains an old grudge, assigning the
detention work he did to Harry, for example. No, it wasn't the banal
cruelty of Umbridge, but the humid memory of his own deeper,
unrecorded (except for the deep scar in his brain) trespasses, his use
of the term mudblood to refer to someone who had shown him kindness,
they say, or whom he had admired.

Whatever the task, though, Rowling is intent on showing us how to rise
to meet it. So yes, Potter will have some little understanding - he
already has much, considering his childhood as a mushroom.

If he had been in a state where he could have apologized to the bitter
old coot, perhaps he would have been in a state to have learned
Occlumency. But, would Voldemort have been outed? Would the WW be
informed of the true state of things? Or would Harry still be crying
in the wilderness, and the world told half truths or lies by the
papers and by the minister? What I mean is, the heart's logic says,
this must out. I am not crazy. These things are happening. I will out
them.

That is the path I see in the books.

dan








From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 04:21:56 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 04:21:56 -0000
Subject: A Dastardly *Riddle* plan for hiding Horcruxes
Message-ID: <dchjl4+108eu@...>

I just realized it doesn't fit the timeline of the story to say 
Regulus or any of the younger generation DE's were involved in 
hiding the locket. Or were anywhere near the cave, for that matter 
(except for the first intruder). "Do not forget that Lord Voldemort 
believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." (chap. 26, p. 
569, US)

We already speculatively know Voldemort's pattern for hiding the 
Horcruxes: 

1) The diary was made by 16-year old Tom and hidden by Voldemort for 
many years until he passed it to Lucius right before his fall. The 
only question I have is, who did he murder to make the diary? I feel 
like he definitely used the ring for his father's death b/c it was a 
Slytherin artifact, the lineage he claimed instead of his Muggle 
Riddle line. Do most people think the murder for the diary Horcrux 
was Myrtle? I think it must be, even though an indirect murder.

2) The ring Horcrux was made after the death of Tom Riddle Sr. and 
stored in the Gaunt house because "once Voldemort had succeeded in 
sealing a piece of his soul inside it....he did not want to wear it 
anymore." (chap. 23, p. 504) Harry saw Riddle wearing the ring while 
talking to Slughorn, so my guess is he figured out how to make a 
Horcrux shortly after that and sealed the diary and ring.

3) The locket Horcrux would have been made after murdering Hepzibah 
Smith, which would put Riddle in his 20's & right out of Hogwarts. 
Why wouldn't he follow his already established pattern and hide the 
locket in the cave shortly after?

More evidence for this is the fact that Dumbledore can tell the 
magic in the cave is 'Riddle's style'. I think the whole point of 
the cave expedition was to teach Harry how to recognize and defeat 
Voldemort's obstacles around the other Horcruxes.

The last reason I see for Voldemort hiding his Horcruxes alone, esp. 
the locket which identified him as Heir of Slytherin, is that as 
early as age 11 Riddle "was already highly self-sufficient, 
secretive, and apparently friendless...he did not want help....he 
preferred to operate alone." (chap. 13, p. 277) 

We have incomplete information since we don't know how the other 
Horcruxes were made or where they were hidden. But it doesn't fit 
with LV's paranoid nature to randomly hand out Horcruxes. The diary 
was different because Voldemort expected to use it as both a weapon 
and a Horcrux, but I don't think his collection of 'trophies' would 
be allowed out of his hands.

Jen





From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 06:07:28 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:07:28 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dch2bm+7a9u@...>
Message-ID: <dchpr0+35hq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" <kking0731 at g...> wrote:
> 

> Snow:
> 
> JKR's website offers a bit of an information about the Diary-Horcrux:
> 
> "In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died 
> and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?
> I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it 
> would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably."
> 
> Interesting that Diary!Tom would have strengthened the present-day 
> Voldy, but how? Wouldn't they, like you said Kim, be two separate 
> persons? Maybe the Horcrux reincarnation portion of Voldy seeks out 
> its creator and rejoins him. 

Lyn now:
You might find it interesting to review Kneasy's post  "Credit where credit is due" of my 
email to him on my pre-HBP thoughts on this.  Yes, I think it possible that LV can re-
incorporate his HXs to renew his powers.
> 
> Snip>
> 
> The Horcrux!Nagini fed Vapormort transforming him into the snakelike 
> babymort. Voldy was able to use Nagini to become something more than 
> vapor but didn't have to physically join with the snake.


Lyn now:
Yes LV actually relates pretty much the story of this in the graveyard in GOF: "a spell or 
two of my own invention...a little help from my dear Nagini." "a potion concocted from 
unicorn blood, and the snake venom Nagini provided...I was soon returned to an almost 
human form...."

<snip>
>  
> I thought that the Horcrux was created as an immortality measure that 
> simply prohibits the mother source of Voldy's soul to truly die
but 
> it appears that these bits of soulcrux'es can be used to strengthen 
> the creator as well if they are introduced to a human source (or 
> soul) for rejuvenation. Ginny would have been the sacrificial soul 
> that allowed the Horcrux of the Diary to become a living soul once 
> more. 
>

Lyn now:
Exactly what I speculated in that email to Kneasy. I think the guide in all of this is another 
statement from LV in the graveyard: "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before 
chasing immortality. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body back again, and 
my old strength."

My guess is that every time LV split his soul to form a HX he also divided some of his 
power. He didn't really give it up, by he compartmentalized it outside of himself, still 
available for return if so needed. At the height of his powers, he had power to spare, 
sufficient to exchange a portion for immortality. The events at GH changed that. He now 
needs to regain that power, at least temporarily.

I suspect, again back to that email to Kneasy, that LV has been cautiously seeking out 
some of his HXs to re-establish his powers. The reintegration is not easy, and likely 
requires some contribution of the life force of another to effect the reintegration. It may 
well be that the bone of the father in GOF was one of the HX's and the other components 
were necessary to effect that reincorporation.  Indeed, I strongly suspect that is what took 
place in the graveyard.

What this means, if true, is that destruction of the remaining HXs will not escape LVs 
attention, and that such destruction is urgent not just so as to kill LV, but to prevent him 
from regaining even greater powers. 

Also, if the bone of the father was indeed a HX, then it adds to the plausibility that LV was 
indeed intending to use an eventually dead infant Harry as his next HX. Aligning 
Possession Theory with HX. Possession first to learn of whatever powers/threat resided 
within the infant and to remove them, transfer of a portion of the soul next achieved by 
the necessary death of James (and why Lily's death was unnecessary), death of Harry to 
seal the soul fragment within him and form the HX. Then the ironical knowledge that the 
"threat" now served as a secret stepping stone towards his immortality.

Finally, if one re-reads the graveyard scene, one will find more than one statement by LV 
that the DeathEaters knew of his steps towards immortality (and thus why they should 
have known he was not dead). That may or may not mean than many of the Death Eaters 
know about HXs, but perhaps lack the capability (right now) to generate their own. Perhaps 
one of the ways he obtains their allegience is the promise to eventually show them how to 
make one for themselves.  ["Not now little Death Eater, right how you need all of your 
powers, but stick with me and your powers will expand, and eventually I'll be able to teach 
you how to make a HX of your own."]

Anyway, just some thoughts for fun. 

 






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 12:21:25 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:21:25 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
Message-ID: <dcifo5+prp3@...>

Jen:
>"Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows 
about his Horcruxes." (chap. 26, p. 569, US)
<snip timeline reasoning>
The last reason I see for Voldemort hiding his Horcruxes alone, esp. 
the locket which identified him as Heir of Slytherin, is that as 
early as age 11 Riddle "was already highly self-sufficient, 
secretive, and apparently friendless...he did not want help....he 
preferred to operate alone." (chap. 13, p. 277)
>
We have incomplete information since we don't know how the other 
Horcruxes were made or where they were hidden. But it doesn't fit 
with LV's paranoid nature to randomly hand out Horcruxes. The diary 
was different because Voldemort expected to use it as both a weapon 
and a Horcrux, but I don't think his collection of 'trophies' would 
be allowed out of his hands.
>

Carolyn:
I think the timeline issue is very important in understanding what is 
going on. The problem is that we are not sure if Hx have to be 
created at the time of a murder or not. On the whole, it seems not, 
though that seems...a bit untidy, undramatic.. [has visions of Tom 
leaping around with a kind of Dark Arts butterfly net, trying to 
capture the murderee's dying gasp or whatever, and bottling it for 
later use in the Hx spell].

All we really know is that he had the ring before he left school, and 
like you, Jen, I would like to think that the murder of his father 
would be suitably symbolic and significant to create that Hx. 
However, since he asked Sluggy about Hxs **after** obtaining the 
ring, I think we are forced to conclude that it wasn't a Hx at that 
point.

Similarly, I like your idea that Moaning Myrtle (as a mudblood) would 
be suitable for the creation of a diary which housed the CoS secret. 
On the other hand, her own description of her death made it sound as 
though it was an accident that she saw the basilisk. Tom no doubt 
could hear her sobbing her eyes out in the loo, but he doesn't seem 
to have directly targeted the snake at her. She overheard a boy 
talking in Parseltongue and opened the door to tell him off, 
encountering the snake as it came up out of the sink. There is also 
the point that she came back as a ghost, which seems a bit 
inconvenient for the dedicated Hx producer. You'd want your murderee 
to stay well dead, I'd've thought. We do at least know for sure that 
Tom was 16 at this point and therefore had another year to go at 
school.

Moving on to the locket and cup, he seems to have murdered Hepzibah 
within a year or so of starting work with B&B. DD says he thinks this 
is the first murder that Tom did since his father and grandparents, 
so by this point he has more than enough murders in hand to create 
four Hx, and he could also have used the Vanishing Cabinets to move 
from B&B into Hogwarts to place the cup in the trophy room before he 
resigned his job.

[As an aside, is anyone else vaguely irritated that we seem to have 
*two* Slytherin artefacts as Hxs? Seems to spoil the symmetry of one 
from each of the founders, plus dead muggle father...and his nemesis 
Harry? Is the locket a massive red herring?].

My thinking is that the ring, the locket and the cup were all put in 
their hiding places early on, but that he kept the diary with him 
until much later. Hxs 4 and 5 were created in the interim but after 
he heard the prophecy, he saved up the Potter and/or Longbottom 
murders for Hx No.6. However, just because of the prophecy, I think 
he was mighty nervous about what might happen if he went for Harry 
and Neville and therefore put two back up plans in place. One was 
giving the diary to Lucius with only partial instructions and a 
strict injunction not to deploy it until Voldemort said so. The other 
was the Regulus affair, enabling the locket to be moved from its 
hiding place to somewhere that it could more easily take over any 
witch or wizard that found it and put it on.

>
Dungrollin:
Hmm. I'm not convinced that any of the other Horsepox could do what 
the diary did, which is why the diary was left (as a weapon) with
Lucius, and why the others (locket/ring etc) were hidden and 
protected (if poorly).
>
Kimberly:
No way he would *intentionally* create spares of himself that can act 
independantly of the original. They would basically be totally
separate entities, his equal in magic and power (I assume, or what 
would be the point?), and with the same ambitions and nastiness, and
would, therefore, set out immediately to get rid of the original. 
After all, we know he works alone, and doesn't want buddies. So 
instead of just having to deal with that annoying Potter boy, he'd 
suddenly be at war with himself, and possibly more than one of 
himself. And at varying ages, too, if the Riddle from the diary is 
any indication. I doubt he'd want to fight his younger, fitter self.
>
Lyn:
My guess is that every time LV split his soul to form a HX he also 
divided some of his power. He didn't really give it up, by he 
compartmentalized it outside of himself, still available for return 
if so needed. At the height of his powers, he had power to spare, 
sufficient to exchange a portion for immortality. The events at GH 
changed that. He now needs to regain that power, at least temporarily.
>

Carolyn:
If Lyn's explanation is true, why has he not spent the last two years 
hoovering up his lost Hairballs? There's been nothing to stop him. He 
could have retrieved at least the ring, and Hxs 4 and 5, if not the 
locket (since it's at 12GP and that's been OOP HQ since shortly after 
the rebirthing).

And by the way (Lyn), the DEs seem not to know about Hxs, at least 
according to DD: 'That was what you told me he said. 'Further than 
anybody'. And I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death 
Eaters did not.' (Ch 23, p469 UK ed).

>
Kneasy:
You stopped before coming to the punch-line.
Bella killed Reggy.
With Sirius fitted up for the Potter murders, languishing away in 
durance vile, plus having been disinherited, who then gets the loot?
Bella. Darling Bella.
>

Carolyn:
This makes a very rational sub-plot, since it is clear from Ch 2 that 
the DEs know all about the Fidelius charm that is preventing Snape 
from telling them the OOP HQ location. But you do have this odd 
situation that Bella knows she is due to inherit 12 GP, and can 
remember and know about that address and possibly even visit it, 
without being aware of it being OOP HQ. So, presumably she could have 
gone straight there after the death of Sirius and had a rummage about 
looking for the locket, which presumably would not necessarily have 
been protected by the Fidelius?

Another footnote in passing. DD had no trouble going to interview 
Morfin in Azkaban, did he? And he really is a dab hand at 
Legilimency, isn't he..all those little bottles of people's thoughts? 
So, have to ask once again, why didn't he bother to do this for 
Sirius? Would have sorted a lot of things out a lot earlier, wouldn't 
it? Or perhaps he did, and in due course we will find out what Sirius 
really knew about Reg's activities?

Carolyn







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 12:56:02 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:56:02 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcgaj6+a0q9@...>
Message-ID: <dcihp2+8j3j@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:

> Naturally I like the possibility of Harrycrux. However, Voldy
> intentionally making a Harry a Hx is problematic. First, it seems more
> and more that Voldy indeed tried to AK baby Harry at GH, and why would
> he AK a Hx he had just made?
> 
> You might say that Voldy didn't actually use an AK on Harry at GH,
> because the echo of the AK didn't appear in the Priori Incantatum
> sequence (although, as I wrote here before, the fact that the echoes
> of Voldy's Cruciatus and Imperius in the graveyard also didn't appear
> strongly supports the notion that failed curses don't count in Priori
> Incantatem). You still have to explain, however, why the echo of the
> Hx magic itself didn't appear. This you might counter by saying that
> maybe the Hx magic doesn't require a wand. Fine, but this still
> doesn't explain why, if there was never a rebounding AK, did Voldy
> lose his body and was vaporized at GH. To use Jo Mooseming's
> terminology, I'd estimate the above leaves the theory of Intentional
> Harrycrux with two Quarts and a Sack, if not an outright Anvil.  
> 

An innate perversity plus nuggets of canon still hold me in thrall
to the 'no AK for Harry at GH' theory. Now is perhaps not the time to
restate all the arguments, maybe later when for the third time we're 
repeating threads deriving from HBP and wondering if anyone can 
come up with something that provides a change of tempo. For the
moment it's enough to know that there are two (minimum) schools
of thought and that the respective conclusions drawn about the 
events at GH will inevitably affect interpretations of later canon.

There is also the possibility that close analysis of newer material may
provide helpful clues in resolving this doctrinal chasm, for there are 
some indisputable facts which need to be explained one way or another.

Harry is more than just Harry. 
There're extras added to the basic model. These include 'powers' from
Voldy and the ability to mind-link (unless deliberately blocked) as an 
absolute minimum. Other possible additions include fragments of the
Voldy personality and/or Voldy essence, his anima, life-force or what-
ever you want to call it which may or may not be indistinguishable from
his soul or any part thereof - which would effectively result in 
Heircrux!Harry. 

IMO it's more than just powers - the Hat, the mind-link, the mutual
recognition between Harry and Diary!Tom, the ability to access the
Chamber, all are suggestive to the point of being clouted round the
ear by a sand-filled sock. Gentle hints they ain't.  

Something else we can safely assume is that you don't split your soul 
and deposit the off-cut into a Hurlucks accidentally. It's a deliberate
act. It's the result of the Darkest of Dark Magic. And Voldy seems set
on making seven of 'em. Thus if Harry is one of Voldy's safety-deposit
boxes it was planned - and there couldn't have been an AK. 

Power/personality transfer need not be so cut and dried. A mind 
intrusion - curtailed/repelled by his emplaced protection *might* result
in snippage of the probe, leaving one bit stranded. From what we've 
been told (so far) it's not nearly so easy to explain the transplant as 
the by-product of a failed AK.

How likely is it that we have a Horsechucks!Harry on our hands?
Well, the evidence is a bit thin.
DD's musings tend to militate against the idea - at first anyway.
He thinks that Egotrip!Voldy would go for ancient objects of magical
significance; Slytherin's ring, locket; the Hufflepuff Cup; something
from Ravenclaw (bet it's a wand - that Tarot link looks like another
of those anvil-sized hints) and maybe something connected with 
Gryffindor. 

Oh - an aside. There are suggestions that there's a cup in the Trophy
Room that is the Hufflepuff job cunningly disguised. Um. 
This would require that Tom stole the Huffs Cup, Hiccupsed it and then
sneaked it into Hogwarts when no-one was looking. Doubtful IMO.

But back to DD's ramblings. 
He then sort of contradicts himself as to likely repositories by bringing
up Nagini as a possibilty. Don't like this much; probably a red herring 
stretched out and painted green. However, it does confirm that living 
beings can be used as Haircuts, which still leaves Harry as the possible
missing sixth. 

Herchucks!Harry is gonna be one of the favourite theories from now on,
but I have to admit, that for now at least, to feeling luke-warm about
the idea.  Dunno why, just a gut feeling. Probably wrong. There should
be some reason why Harry and Diary!Tom feel like soul-mates, shouldn't
there? Why not this? Still.....

Kneasy 








From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 17:49:23 2005
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:49:23 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcifo5+prp3@...>
Message-ID: <dcj2v3+ctm7@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" <carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote:

<snip of responses to others, beginning now with Carolyn quoting my earlier post:
> Lyn:
> My guess is that every time LV split his soul to form a HX he also 
> divided some of his power. He didn't really give it up, by he 
> compartmentalized it outside of himself, still available for return 
> if so needed. At the height of his powers, he had power to spare, 
> sufficient to exchange a portion for immortality. The events at GH 
> changed that. He now needs to regain that power, at least temporarily.
> >
> 
> Carolyn:
> If Lyn's explanation is true, why has he not spent the last two years 
> hoovering up his lost Hairballs? There's been nothing to stop him. He 
> could have retrieved at least the ring, and Hxs 4 and 5, if not the 
> locket (since it's at 12GP and that's been OOP HQ since shortly after 
> the rebirthing).

Lyn now:
If my speculation about the graveyard corpalization ceremony is correct, then he has 
already begun to utilize his HXs. There might be several reasons for why he would not 
immediately seek to re-integrate them. 
1. There is always a trade off between immortality and power, so he might be hedging his 
bets by maintaining as many HXs as possible until he needs the full extent of his powers. 
Up until now, a full "hot" war has not been in force, and he has been using his DE and 
surrogates to effect almost all of the actions.
2. It is likely that the re-integration magic is complex and requires several components 
that are not easily come by. This is particulary true if the graveyard ceremony is a model.
3. There is always some chance that a HX may be misused or destroyed by who ever has it 
in their possession, thus LV likely needs to retrieve each one by himself. He is paranoid/
realistic enough to know that he can't trust most of his followers for the task (look how 
Lucius Malfoy bungled it).
4. While he may have hidden his HXs, he may not be sure that they have remained hidden. 
He would be prudent to assure himself that his HXs are not being watched, and a trap set 
for him there. 

Not saying any of these are exactly it, but I think they illustrate how he might take a 
cautious approach to the re-integration.

Back to Carolyn 
> 
> And by the way (Lyn), the DEs seem not to know about Hxs, at least 
> according to DD: 'That was what you told me he said. 'Further than 
> anybody'. And I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death 
> Eaters did not.' (Ch 23, p469 UK ed).

Lyn now:

I quote LV from the graveyard (Ch 33 GOF), speaking to his Death Eaters. 
"And then I ask myself, but how could they have not believed I would rise again? They, who 
knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death. They who had seen 
proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard 
living."

Now there is no reason to believe that LV is lying, as after all, the "They" he is referring to 
are standing before him. So here we have him unequivocally stating "they knew the steps I 
took...." What I'd speculate is that they knew of him using HXs, but they (or at least most) 
don't know the identity of most or all of the HXs. I think this is illustrated by Lucius's 
actions, suggesting he knew the Diary was precious to LV, but didn't know its true nature.






From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 19:43:34 2005
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:43:34 -0000
Subject: Harrycrux Variations (was: A dastardly Voldy plan)
In-Reply-To: <dcihp2+8j3j@...>
Message-ID: <dcj9l6+s88i@...>

> Kneasy:
> An innate perversity plus nuggets of canon still hold me in thrall
> to the 'no AK for Harry at GH' theory. Now is perhaps not the time
> to
> restate all the arguments, maybe later when for the third time
> we're 
> repeating threads deriving from HBP and wondering if anyone can 
> come up with something that provides a change of tempo.


Neri:
Well, when rounding up the evidence, be sure to include something
I've
just noticed in HBP Ch. 1:

*************************************************************
"The Muggle authorities were perplexed. As far as I am aware, they do
not know to this day how the Riddles died, for the Avada Kedavra curse
does not usually leave any sign of damage. . . . The exception sits
before me," Dumbledore added, with a nod to Harry's scar.
************************************************************* 

Sounds pretty anvilish to me, but of course Dumbledore might be wrong
or lying. If he is, however, we still need to explain why Voldy was
vaporized in GH. 

I personally didn't chuck Intentional Harrycrux yet, but I think
it
improves its chances considerably by incorporating the AK into it. For
example, how about this scenario: after AKing Lily out of the way,
Voldy performs the rite of turning baby Harry into a Hx, but it
doesn't work because Lily's ancient magic protects Harry from
the evil
intrusion. Voldy gets frustrated (he tends to do that, you know) and
AKs Harry. From here on this scenario proceeds as in Unintentional
Harrycrux: the AK rebounds and vaporizes Voldy, the two just-ripped
soul parts are released, and one of them finds its way into
Harry's
mind through the gash in his forehead. This version has the advantage
that the hypothetic Hx-making rite was fully performed with baby Harry
as the target. OTOH I still feel that, had Voldy ever suspected that
Harry is one of his Hxs, he would have treated him a bit more
sensibly, or what was his whole point of making Harry a Hx to begin
with?


> Kneasy:
> Harry is more than just Harry. 
> There're extras added to the basic model. These include 'powers'
> from
> Voldy and the ability to mind-link (unless deliberately blocked) as
> an 
> absolute minimum. Other possible additions include fragments of the
> Voldy personality and/or Voldy essence, his anima, life-force or
> what-
> ever you want to call it which may or may not be indistinguishable
> from
> his soul or any part thereof - which would effectively result in 
> Heircrux!Harry. 
> 
> IMO it's more than just powers - the Hat, the mind-link, the mutual
> recognition between Harry and Diary!Tom, the ability to access the
> Chamber, all are suggestive to the point of being clouted round the
> ear by a sand-filled sock. Gentle hints they ain't.  
> 


Neri:
I agree. They might still be red herrings, but they are intended. And
we already have the proof from the Diary Hx that each of the soul
parts might become a fully functional model, especially if given the
chance to leech on the soul of a host, and Harry has been a host for
much longer than Ginny was in CoS. I agree wholeheartedly that
JKR's
plots frequently aren't the most elegant (<cough> gum wrappers
<cough>) but inventing something so much like a Hx and yet has nothing
to do with a Hx would be a grave disappointment for me.  


> Kneasy: 
> Something else we can safely assume is that you don't split your
> soul 
> and deposit the off-cut into a Hurlucks accidentally. It's a
> deliberate
> act. It's the result of the Darkest of Dark Magic. And Voldy seems
> set
> on making seven of 'em. Thus if Harry is one of Voldy's
> safety-deposit
> boxes it was planned - and there couldn't have been an AK. 
> 


Neri:
As I mention above we can actually have Intentional Harrycrux *with*
the AK *and* a full Darkest of Dark Magic rite, and it works quite
well with the canon. However, I wouldn't let our longing for some
"realism" (heh!) in the plot discourage us from considering
the
possibility of Unintentional Harrycrux. We have JKR's word (in the
three-part interview) that what's happened at GH was a
one-of-a-kind
event that nobody could foresee. Under such conditions it's not so
"unrealistic" to imagine a just-ripped soul part somehow
finding its
way, through a just-opened magical wound, into the only body still
alive in the scene. Especially if the Author likes this to happen.    


> Kneasy:
> How likely is it that we have a Horsechucks!Harry on our hands?
> Well, the evidence is a bit thin.
> DD's musings tend to militate against the idea - at first anyway.


Neri:
Yes, the main problem with all versions of Harrycrux, IMO, is whether
Dumbledore knew or suspected. If he did, why didn't he warn
Harry? If
he didn't, then what was the Essence Divided thing about?


> Kneasy:
> He thinks that Egotrip!Voldy would go for ancient objects of magical
> significance; Slytherin's ring, locket; the Hufflepuff Cup;
> something
> from Ravenclaw (bet it's a wand - that Tarot link looks like another
> of those anvil-sized hints) and maybe something connected with 
> Gryffindor. 
> 

Neri:
Dumbledore suspected that Voldy would want a Gryffindor trinket, and
Dumbledore's suspicions are never far off the mark (again,
JKR's word
in the TLC/Mugglenet interview). But Dumbledore also said that the
sole remaining Gryffindor trinket is the sword, which Voldy hadn't
managed to put his hands on. So what if, instead of a Gryffindor
trinket, Voldy decided on a Gryffindor *student* to complete his set?
Head Girl Lily could fit the bill perfectly, and maybe this is why he
tried to spare her. This doesn't even contradict any version of
TEW
EWWW. Voldy's loyal servant would just be trusted with the honor
of
guarding the imperio'ed  Horcrux!Lily, same as (or sort of like)
Lucius was trusted with the honor of guarding the diary. 

Ewww. 


> Kneasy:
> But back to DD's ramblings. 
> He then sort of contradicts himself as to likely repositories by
> bringing
> up Nagini as a possibilty. Don't like this much; probably a red
> herring 
> stretched out and painted green. However, it does confirm that
> living 
> beings can be used as Haircuts, which still leaves Harry as the
> possible
> missing sixth. 
> 


Neri:
Yup, this is a main reason why I like Harrycrux. Nagini sounds like a
red herring to me, with the added value of demonstrating that a living
Hx is a possibility. And remember, Dumbledore only resorted to the
Nagini speculation because he couldn't think of any relic of
Gryffindor that Voldy might put his hands on. A Gryffindor student
instead of a Gryffindor relic would still make Dumbledore not far off
the mark. 

To cap, I didn't decide yet between Intentional Harrycrux and
Unintentional Harrycrux, but the second one with Lily originally
intended as the Hx sounds slightly more fitting to me.

Neri






From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 20:06:25 2005
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:06:25 -0000
Subject: A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcifo5+prp3@...>
Message-ID: <dcjb01+cj4j@...>

Carolyn:
> All we really know is that he had the ring before he left school,
> and like you, Jen, I would like to think that the murder of his
> father would be suitably symbolic and significant to create that 
> Hx. However, since he asked Sluggy about Hxs **after** obtaining
> the ring, I think we are forced to conclude that it wasn't a Hx at
> that point.

Jen: Since we see Tom in the diary as 'not a day older than 16' he 
learned to make Horcruxes very shortly after the murder of his 
father and the talk with Slughorn. Also, he's wearing the ring in 
the memory with Slughorn and not wearing it in the diary memory. So 
I'd say both those Horcruxes were made right after the murders 
associated with them.

Carolyn: 
> Similarly, I like your idea that Moaning Myrtle (as a mudblood)
> would be suitable for the creation of a diary which housed the CoS
> secret. On the other hand, her own description of her death made
> it sound as though it was an accident that she saw the basilisk.
> Tom no doubt could hear her sobbing her eyes out in the loo, but
> he doesn't seem to have directly targeted the snake at her. She
> overheard a boy talking in Parseltongue and opened the door to
> tell him off, encountering the snake as it came up out of the
> sink. 

Jen: If Tom used 'significant' deaths to make the Horcruxes, and 
that seems likely given his psychological obsession with significant 
objects, then Myrtle's death would definitely outweigh the deaths of 
his grandparents. They were afterthoughts, wrong-place, wrong-time 
murders. Throwaways. So unless there was another murder we don't 
know about, Myrtle must be it. It was unpremeditated, but since Tom 
opened the chamber and was using Paseltongue to unleash the basilisk 
on the school, it *was* murder. 

Carolyn:
> There is also the point that she came back as a ghost, which seems
> a bit inconvenient for the dedicated Hx producer. You'd want your
> murderee to stay well dead, I'd've thought. We do at least know
> for sure that Tom was 16 at this point and therefore had another
> year to go at school.

Jen: Heh heh, good point. Foreshadowing for another murder, another 
ghost who can give us information down the line? 

Carolyn: 
> Moving on to the locket and cup, he seems to have murdered
> Hepzibah within a year or so of starting work with B&B. DD says he
> thinks this is the first murder that Tom did since his father and 
> grandparents, so by this point he has more than enough murders in 
> hand to create four Hx, and he could also have used the Vanishing
> Cabinets to move from B&B into Hogwarts to place the cup in the 
> trophy room before he resigned his job.

Jen: I've changed my mind about Hepzibah. I think he used that 
murder for the Hufflepuff cup Horcrux. She was distantly descended 
from Helga, and appeared to be rather silly. Not worthy of the 
Slytherin locket worn around his mother's neck. No, the locket must 
have been a *very* significant death we either don't know yet or 
haven't pinned down.

Really smart idea about using the Vanishing Cabinents to replace the 
services award at the school! I've been wondering how he could 
accomplish that if the award cup is a Horcrux.

Carolyn:
> [As an aside, is anyone else vaguely irritated that we seem to
> have *two* Slytherin artefacts as Hxs? Seems to spoil the symmetry
> of one from each of the founders, plus dead muggle father...and 
> his nemesis Harry? Is the locket a massive red herring?].

Jen: I think it fits the psychological profile for Voldemort to 
consider both Slytherin items extremely valuable and worthy of being 
made into Horcruxes. One is the only link to his mother and 
therefore very significant, and the other was used as a complete 
rejection of his Muggle heritage in favor of being Heir of 
Slytherin. 

Carolyn:
> My thinking is that the ring, the locket and the cup were all put
> in their hiding places early on, but that he kept the diary with 
> him until much later. Hxs 4 and 5 were created in the interim but
> after he heard the prophecy, he saved up the Potter and/or
> Longbottom murders for Hx No.6. 

Jen: I agree with that timeline completely. There was a suggestion 
on HPFGU that LV hid the diary at Gringotts, but that seems like a 
very common place and not up to his standards.

Carolyn:
> However, just because of the prophecy, I think 
> he was mighty nervous about what might happen if he went for Harry 
> and Neville and therefore put two back up plans in place. One was 
> giving the diary to Lucius with only partial instructions and a 
> strict injunction not to deploy it until Voldemort said so. The 
> other was the Regulus affair, enabling the locket to be moved from 
> its hiding place to somewhere that it could more easily take over 
> any witch or wizard that found it and put it on.

Jen: Argh!! I have such a mental block about the Regulus affair. 
First that he was involved at all, and second because I want to see 
RAB turn out to be a someone really spectacular. Like R. Amy Benson 
getting her revenge after all these years ;). I also think the 
locket was placed in the cave early on and remained there, because 
the protections are definitely Voldemort's work. Someone else was 
able to outwit them before Dumbledore, someone equally clever and 
powerful. I want to be amazed to find out who that person was and 
how they managed to do what Dumbledore barely accomplished. Regulus 
and Kreacher would be a big letdown in my book <g>.

Jen







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 20:22:52 2005
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:22:52 -0000
Subject: Harrycrux Variations (was: A dastardly Voldy plan)
In-Reply-To: <dcj9l6+s88i@...>
Message-ID: <dcjbus+gaog@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:

>  And remember, Dumbledore only resorted to the
> Nagini speculation because he couldn't think of any relic of
> Gryffindor that Voldy might put his hands on. A Gryffindor student
> instead of a Gryffindor relic would still make Dumbledore not far off
> the mark. 
> 

Just a quickie - there is another Gryffindor momento hanging around
Hoggers - the Sorting Hat.  And when  it was programmed to sort
the S's from the G's, the R's from the H's, each of the Founders
added something of themselves to it.

You don't think Voldy has been reading those irritating statements of
the bleedin' obvious, do you? Where do you hide a leaf? etc. ad nauseam
.... nah, can't be. 

Kneasy 





From heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 20:37:06 2005
From: heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:37:06 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] A dastardly Voldy plan - was: Re: Lockets
In-Reply-To: <dcjb01+cj4j@...>
References: <dcjb01+cj4j@...>
Message-ID: <1122842232.118BEDFC@...>


> Carolyn:
>>  All we really know is that he had the ring before he left school,
>>  and like you, Jen, I would like to think that the murder of his
>>  father would be suitably symbolic and significant to create that
>>  Hx. However, since he asked Sluggy about Hxs **after** obtaining
>>  the ring, I think we are forced to conclude that it wasn't a Hx at
>>  that point.
>
> Jen wrote: Since we see Tom in the diary as 'not a day older than 16' 
> he
> learned to make Horcruxes very shortly after the murder of his
> father and the talk with Slughorn. Also, he's wearing the ring in
> the memory with Slughorn and not wearing it in the diary memory. So
> I'd say both those Horcruxes were made right after the murders
> associated with them.
>
Not necessarily. We don't know for sure if the memory in the diary is 
the same as the part of his soul. In other words, perhaps he created the 
diary as a horcrux, then made it like a pensieve in that it could hold 
those few specific memories he showed Harry, and the bit that was part 
of his soul was what talked with Ginny.

Also, is it possible that when you take a memory out and put it in a 
pensieve, then watch the memory, you're making the equivilent of a 
second generation videotape with that memory? Is that how Slughorn 
"pastede on" his edits to his memory of the talk with Tom?



From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 21:21:13 2005
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:21:13 -0000
Subject: About Dumbledore & Hxs
Message-ID: <dcjfc9+hvdk@...>

I was just re-reading the Slughorn memory of the conversation with 
Tom (Ch 23), and was struck by two comments he made:

'Not at all, not at all, not offended,' said Slughorn gruffly. 'It's 
natural to feel some curiosity about these things..wizards of a 
certain calibre have always been drawn to that aspect of magic.'

and:

'People wouldn't like to think we've been chatting about Horcruxes. 
It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know..Dumbledore's 
particularly fierce about it.'

Why would DD feel so strongly about the topic, and who else might 
have been drawn to investigate Hxs? Sluggy's remark is strongly 
reminiscent of Ollivander's comment: 'After all, He Who Must Not Be 
Named did great things - terrible, yes, but great.'

I once wrote a long post about how admiration/respect for magic power 
was a powerful driving force in the WW 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/108963 if 
anyone's interested)
and it seems to me that Sluggy's reproving, yet obvious fascination 
is yet more evidence for it.

JKR has flagged up repeatedly that DD's family and background are 
probably important to the mystery. It could be that he's lost someone 
close to him to the Dark Arts, and refusing to go that route himself 
is what's driven him all these years. 

Further thought - maybe the Dark Wizard Grindewald was a brother, 
cousin, whatever, who had also experimented with Hxs, but only made 
just the one. If DD chose to destroy Grindewald's Hx rather than 
outright kill him, it would explain the oft-commented on 'defeated' 
description on the Chocolate Frog card.

Carolyn
..who was really disappointed that the images of DD on the cards were 
not the secret way in which the Order communicated with each other. I 
was sure that was why he wasn't bothered about losing any of his 
titles, but did care if they took him off the frog cards...oh well.








From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jul 31 23:20:41 2005
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:20:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] TOAD WARS was :A dastardly Voldy plan
In-Reply-To: <dcjb01+cj4j@...>
Message-ID: <20050731232041.17373.qmail@...>

Greetings from Red Eye Randy...

I regret my late arrival... I spent the last few
months searching houses of ill repute looking for
women with broken legs who had been given enchanted
crutches by a passionate wizard....only to find that
my hearing was a bit off when Dumbledore gave me those
instructions....;0)

Really, I disconnected from the group and reread books
4, and 5 and read book 6 at a leisurely pace given my
3 boys are out of school for the summer.

Even though I am way behind on reading posts, I hazard
a guess that noone else has discovered the true story
of the final whorecrutch...  

Here is the untold story....

Bellatrix was sent to retrieve the horcrux stolen by
RAB and given to the Longbottoms.  Nevilles's mom
planted the location of the missing horcrux into the
back of young Neville's mind and placed a forgetful
charm on him that he alone can unlock.  

Once Neville is of age and gains confidence in
himself, he can use transfiguration (desired by
Grandma) to transform his Toad (Trevor) back into the
Voldemort charmed object that it once was.  Trevor has
been trying unsuccessfully all these years to escape
Neville and return to the Dark Lord.

Thus leading to the new theory.....

Trevor Only Avoids Dumbledore While Attempting to
Revitalize Slytherin.  (aka. TOAD WARS)

Red Eye Randy 
who has been trying for years to unlock the secret of
Neville's unruly toad....Note Umbridge's interest in
Hogwarts and her "toadlike" appearance.



> 
> Carolyn:
> > However, just because of the prophecy, I think 
> > he was mighty nervous about what might happen if
> he went for Harry 
> > and Neville and therefore put two back up plans in
> place. One was 
> > giving the diary to Lucius with only partial
> instructions and a 
> > strict injunction not to deploy it until Voldemort
> said so. The 
> > other was the Regulus affair, enabling the locket
> to be moved from 
> > its hiding place to somewhere that it could more
> easily take over 
> > any witch or wizard that found it and put it on.
> 
>


		
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