Think about Neville

[Lyn J. Mangiameli]

Following up on some back and forth with Kneasy,


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> snip to replies to some of my replies.

>  > Now Lyn,
>  > Maybe so, but maybe not. I give Harry more choice in these matters 
> and I  think his strength has been in the bravery  and determination 
> of his choices. As you know, I personally don't think it 
> was his love for Sirius that directly made Harry uninhabitable by LV. 
> I think it was that Harry embraced death, the very 
> thing LV fears most. Harry chose to die, I consider that 
> volitional. Rightly, wrongly, foolishly, wisely, Harry has 
> chosen many times to put himself (and thus his life) at risk 
> potentially to achieve what he believed to be a worthy outcome. 
> Now might it be that HP and LV are equal, not in magical power, 
> but in the power of their choices (different in direction 
> though they may be). Just a thought.
> 
> Kneasy:
> I dunno; altruism is one thing, rash idiocy is something else.
> He never, ever, *ever* thinks of consequences. Not only that, he never, 
> ever, *ever* has a real plan either.
> 
> PS/SS  - "Let's get the Stone before the baddy!"
> How?
> "We just pop down the trapdoor and evade all those protections that are 
> intended to stymie a seriously evil skilled wizard! It's easy!"
> Yeah. And then?
> "Oh, we'll decide what to do then later."
> 
> CoS.
> "We'll just pop down the plughole, confront this ginormous 
> death-dealing monster, laugh at the Heir, rescue Ginny and Bob's your 
> Uncle. Simple."
> 
> OoP.
> "We'll  fly to London, break into the Ministry, penetrate the most 
> closely guarded sanctum in the WW and  rescue Sirius. Piece of cake."
> The DEs, Voldy?
> "Oh, we'll sort  them out later."
> 
> Arrgh!
> I think I'll invent a new syndrome just for Harry - IHAND.
> Impulsive Half-Assed Numpty  Disorder.
> 
> (Note to non-Brits - a numpty can be defined as a non-thinking pillock.)

Lyn anew,
Does Harry have a fine edged (or yes, even a blunt edged) understanding of consequence? 
no of course he doesn't. That, of course, is the realistic portrayal of a juvenile mind--I say 
this seriously, with an understanding of the developmental neurophysiology that accounts 
for this (progressive myelinization and all that). But does he usually have sufficient 
understanding of the consequences that he can recognize that he is placing the well being 
of others over his own life? I believe the canonical evidence exists for that. Indeed, I would 
submit that a great deal of the appeal of the HP series to children (and maybe even a few 
adults) is that the series portrays youth as capable of making noble and effectual choices, 
despite their inability to fully grasp all the nuances of such choices.  
> 
>  >
>  > Now Lyn,
>  > The thing that seems lacking for Neville with respect to the prophecy 
> is  that their is no appearance thus far of any reason why Neville 
> should have any personal difficultive living as long as LV is 
> alive. We know differently with respect to Harry and the 
> intertwined conciousness of him  and LV.
>  >
> 
> Kneasy:
> Ah. You've missed my point,  I think.

Lyn again,
Yes I believe I did, though I think its a great point. Still, I would suggest you have rather 
quickly passed by mine. Again, what evidence to we have that, per the prophecy, the 
Neville would have any problem with respect the section "for neither can live while the 
other survives ..." Neville appears to be functioning (at least physically) without much 
problem that can be related to LV's living. In contrast, we have considerable evidence that 
Harry is going to have some trouble maintaining an independent existance with LV around.

Back to Kneasy:

> See, this is was I was nonchalantly edging towards, whistling and 
> admiring the dickie birds, hoping somebody would pick it up and run 
> with it so that I could say "Do you know, that's just what I was 
> thinking!"
> 
> There are supposedly two possible targets for Voldy -  Harry and 
> Neville.
> It would be reasonable to assume that they both had protection - Harry 
> had at least two protections - anti-Voldy and the blood/family dwelling 
> varieties.
> The anti-Voldy *may* have been triggered by Lily's death, but I doubt 
> it - what would have happened if Voldy had just swept Lily aside and 
> nailed Harry first?  And since DD was involved the 'Old Magic' may have 
> been, probably was, placed on both boys. The blood protection that came 
> to Harry on Lily's death would not apply to Neville, Alice is still 
> alive.

Lyn anew:
An excellent analysis IMO. JKR/DD has shared no information about the protections on 
Neville, but it is almost inconceivable to believe DD would not have established protections 
for both infants, both on an individual level, as well as a family level (i.e, hiding). And 
really, how dumb is DD to have not known that with DE like Bella on the loose that Order 
Members were not still in jeopardy. A cynic could almost speculate that the Longbottoms 
surfaced to entice the remaining DE desperados into revealing themselves and making 
themselves available for capture. 

Back to Kneasy:  
> 
> Voldy has now negated Harry's anti-Voldy protection, he can touch him - 
>   but what  about Neville? Was the protective spell removed after Voldy 
> went to pieces? Maybe not. DD didn't believe Voldy was destroyed, did 
> he? And if it wasn't then Neville  is still Voldy-proof while Harry  
> isn't. This could set things up nicely for 
> death-of-Harry-revenged-by-Neville or 
> Harry-at-Voldy's-mercy-saved-by-Neville depending on your tastes.

Lyn anew:
I love this. Yes, Neville my very well retain the protections Harry has now lost. Just the very 
thing LV might overlook to his own demise. But it appears that Bella is Neville's primary 
bane, not LV. So I suspect the ultimate show down for Neville will be there and not a 
climactic battle with LV

Back to Kneasy:  
> If Voldy's choice of first victim was based purely on the availability 
> of a betrayer, (and so far as we know no-one suggested that there was 
> anything special about Harry *before* GH) and assuming that Voldy 
> himself did not transfer 'the power he knows not' (logically unlikely), 
> then the chances are even that Neville is the one that has this power. 
> Whisper it if you dare - Voldy picked the wrong one. All the problems 
> he's had with the pestiferous Potter stem from GH and protection, 
> transfer of powers and that bloody wand. At no time has Harry looked as 
> if he could knock Voldy off his perch. Perhaps he doesn't have the 
> necessary 'power'; perhaps Neville has it instead. After all DD doesn't 
> claim that the whatever-it-is that Harry is so full of that caused 
> Voldy to abort his possession attempt at the Ministry is the same power 
> that will destroy him, now does he?
> "Ugly Duckling" anyone?

Lyn anew:
How convenient that Neville should have be stuck with Frank's wand, and never had a 
chance to see which wand best suited him. Ah, what might have happened if Neville had 
been offered a go at the second phoenix feather wand before Harry. Still, I JKR is going to 
tell us that Harry was ordained as the "one" even before GH. As I have conveyed to some  
privately, there is the issue of the similarity TR finds in the physical appearance of himself 
and Harry, and Harry with TR. There is also the evidence, repeatedly driven home by JKR 
that Harry and James look almost identical. So, does this not mean that James and TR look 
much alike? JKR has set the stage for there to be a link to TR that predates GH. I'm not 
necessarily saying it will be a simple one of heritage, it may be something more subtle or 
complex. But the foundation has clearly been laid for a two generational association 
between Potter males and and TR, and if so, there would be something "special" about 
Harry that is independent from GH.  Again, just some thoughts to follow on you most 
intriguing speculations about Neville.