[the_old_crowd] Re: Is Harry a Horcrux?

[Kathy King]

  Snow previously:
> We have known since COS that Voldy left a bit of himself in Harry.
> This statement by Dumbledore appears to assure us that Harry could be
> a possible Horcrux:
>
> "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said,
> thunderstruck. "It certainly seems so." COS pg. 333 U.S.
>
> Well there you have it, Voldemort putting a piece of himself in an
> object equals Horcrux…or does it? Did Voldemort intend on supplying
> infant Harry with a bit of his soul?

Geoff:
If I may be a bit picky, you didn't give the full quote, which I think
gives a slightly different spin on things.

'"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because
Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaning descendant of Salazar
Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he
transferred some of those powers to you the night he gave you that
scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure..."
"Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunderstruck.
"It certainly seems so." '

(COS "Dobby's Reward" UK edition p.245)

Dumbledore speaks of powers which to me smacks of intellect. It is
Harry who uses the word "bit". Although Dumbledore seems to concur with
Harry, there is probably no reason for him to play with semantics over
Harry's words.

We do know that he began to realise that Voldemort had created
Horcruxes at about this time.

'Dumbledore paused for a moment, marshalling his thoughts and then
said, "Four years ago, I received what I considered cetain proof that
Voldemort had split his soul."
"Where?" asked Harry. "How?"
"You handed it to me, Harry," said Dumbledore. "The diary, Riddle's
diary, the one giving instructions on how to reopen the Chamber of
Secrets."'

(HBP "Horcruxes" p.467 UK edition)

  Snow:

 You do have the right to be a bit picky, Geoff, but in turn I ask for a 
counter pickiness option. 

Do you think that this was the first time Dumbledore considered Voldemort 
had been making Horcrux's? I read it a little differently. . I saw it as 
Dumbledore claiming that he considered the diary as "certain proof" that 
Voldemort had indeed split his soul. To me this was simply confirmation of 
what Dumbledore had already suspected, possibly as early as the Godric's 
Hollow incident (or earlier). 

 Dumbledore had had his apprehensions about Tom from the moment he met him; 
it was all about power with this one. Dumbledore watched him as closely as 
he watches over Harry. I think Dumbledore had created the Phoenix wand for 
Tom as a means to keep tabs on him realizing the problem this child might 
become with such early tendencies towards dark ways. Dumbledore, however, 
gave Tom the opportunity to turn over a "fresh leaf" but with caution:

 "Let us say that I did not take it for granted that he was trustworthy" HBP 
Pg. 361

 Dumbledore kept an extremely close watch on Tom after Moaning Myrtle was 
killed and Hagrid was set up to be the fall guy. 

 As far as Dumbledore's suspicions about Voldemort's Horcrux fixation, I 
think he had known it was a very good possibility as far back as the 
Riddle's deaths. 

 "I have been hoping for this piece of evidence for a very long time," said 
Dumbledore at last. "It confirms the theory on which I have been working, it 
tells me that I am right…" HBP Pg. 499

 Unless four years is a very long time, Dumbledore had had his suspicions 
long before the confirmation of the diary. Most of the Horcruxes chapter has 
Dumbledore saying I believe or I don't believe. Dumbledore plainly has had 
his theories.

 Dumbledore was one of the only persons who realized that Voldemort would be 
back after his disappearance at Godric's Hollow. How could he have even 
suspected that Voldemort wasn't gone for good unless he assumed, way back 
then, that Voldemort had been attempting ways in which to keep his soul 
immortal, one of which would have been making a Horcrux? I also tend to 
believe that Dumbledore had already met a person who had tried this 
experimental process before, Grindlewald. 

 "As far as I know—as far, I am sure, as Voldemort knew—no wizard had ever 
done more than tear his soul in two." HBP PG. 500

 Dumbledore certainly had his assumptions but what he felt he needed was 
proof, which of course came in the form of a diary many years after his 
suspicions. I realize this is all opinion but I think the wording allows for 
me to be suspicious when Dumbledore says the phrase "certain proof". 

 Dumbledore considered the possibility of more than one Horcrux at the time 
the diary was discovered because he warned Lucius of giving out anymore of 
Lord Voldemort's old school things in COS (Dumbledore put two and two 
together rather quickly to make this statement or he was already aware of 
the Horcrux possibility). But we are reassured that this was true when 
Dumbledore states his reasons in HBP:

 "The careless way in which Voldemort regarded this Horcrux seemed most 
ominous to me. It suggested that he must have made—or been planning to 
make—more Horcruxes…" Pg. 501

 Of course conformation of exactly how many Horcrux's Voldemort considered 
making had only been verified for certain when Harry enticed Slughorn for 
his true memory. Dumbledore was adamant about obtaining that most important 
memory and what he eventually learned, that was all-important, was how many. 
Dumbledore had yet to have verification of just how many but he had had his 
suspicions and proceeded to seek out and attempt to destroy them, which he 
was already successful at before the start of school term. Dumbledore 
therefore acted on assumption. Albeit logical assumption but assumption non 
the less. 

  Geoff:


He later says to Harry:
"I am sure that he was intending to make his final Hoorcrux with your
death."

(ibid. p.473)

So, does this mean that Voldemort had lost a piece of soul to Harry
without realising it? that he was still planning to kill Harry and make
a Horcrux and would unknowingly be destroying one anyway?

 Snow: 

 Oh, I do believe that Voldemort was setting up for his next Horcrux 
rendezvous (but ran into circumstances beyond his control) except without 
intent to turn Harry into his final endeavor.

 "The wizard intent [there's that word again] upon creating a Horcrux would 
use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion—"

"Encase? But how--?"

"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn…" HBP Pg. 498

 You must use a spell to create a Horcrux. I think it is doubtful that 
Voldemort's aim was to make Harry a Horcrux. Everything was ripe to initiate 
the spell but without the spell could Harry be a Horcrux?

 Like I had said in my last, I believe, Voldemort was exploring this young 
baby's said abilities through Legilemency when the shield charm Lily placed 
took effect and caused a unique connection between the two of them. "The 
Dark Lord will mark him as his equal" I take as literal. Harry is equal to 
Voldemort with the exception of the one power that Harry has that the Dark 
Lord knows not. The only possible way I can see Harry being equal to 
Voldemort is if they share the same powers. Since they are both able to 
speak Parceltongue, clearly Voldemort did not simply transfer this power or 
he would no longer have the ability. Then again I'm viewing the word 
transfer as a permanent action and not simply a copy-to-disk type of action. 


 Geoff:


I think we can only speculate on this - as we have been doing for days
on how tangible is a soul or a mind - but I am minded to stick with my
view that the transfer of powers was of the mind and not of the soul.

 Snow: 

 Yes, speculation and nitpicking at canon and the wording there of is quite 
necessary, I would think, with an author who has phrasing such as the 
prophecy. It can be that one little word that is or isn't added that makes 
the whole sentence suspicious. 

 I did find a quote by Dumbledore in the Horcruxes chapter however about 
this very subject: 

 "Never forget, though, that while his soul may be damaged beyond repair, 
his brain and his magical powers remain intact." Pg. 509 U.S.

 I can't help but remember it being said that the eyes are the windows to 
the soul. The eyes are also a way in which to view the mind in real life and 
in Potter through legilemency. The very reason Dumbledore could not look 
into Harry's eyes in OOP was because he could see Voldemort lurking there. 
Was Dumbledore seeing a bit of Voldemort's soul behind Harry's eyes? (It was 
said to be a shadow) What part of Harry was the Sorting Hat detecting when 
it suggested Slytherin House and what part of Harry was Trelawney 
prophesizing about when she said Harry was born mid-winter (which we now 
know Voldemort was born in Winter) and what part of Harry did Mad Eye see 
when he saw something "funny" about him? 

 It all seems to point to Harry having Voldemort soul. I don't question that 
he does have his soul; I question the extent he has and whether or not 
Harry's connection to Voldemort is shared or if Harry is an unintentional 
Horcrux. Dumbledore viewed the entwining serpents in OOP and questioned the 
instrument with "But in essence divided?" Could that mean that Voldemort and 
Harry are combined but in essence they, at that point, still divided? The 
serpent was whole when the instrument first showed it; it wasn't until 
Dumbledore asked the question that the snake became divided. 

  Geoff:


How many days do we now wait before JKR puts us out of our misery and
guides us to the centre of the labyrinth?

 Snow:

 Could be a while with the amount of details that had not even been touched 
on in this book: the two-way mirrors, Victor Krum (has been said to be in 
the last book), the events of Godric's Hollow, Pettigrew's life debt, 
something very big about Lily, why exactly the Longbottoms had been tortured 
and so on. The encyclopedia Britannica, otherwise known as book seven, might 
not be released for quite some time. Poor us!

 I think I'm more curious about what she left out of book six than the book 
itself (which kept me anticipating throughout but with no new revelation in 
the end). She is good!

 …Like why the two-way mirrors have yet to come into play and how, according 
to her statement about them on her site, they will be more useful than we 
know. I believe she couldn't divulge as much as she would have liked…not to 
us. 

  Again rambling on too much! 

Snow with apologies to Geoff for not responding last night…pc problems!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]