More on Sirius's Gang of Slytherins

[Neri]

> Judy  wrote:
>
> June's essay is very thorough and thought-provoking.  However, I 
just 
> can't buy the idea of Snape & Bellatrix being friends (or in the 
> same "gang") if they were six years apart.  I just think JKR wasn't 
> paying attention to the dates.
> 

Neri:
I have a personal reason to prefer this solution, since my ACID POPS* 
would work considerably better if Snape and Narcissa were in the same 
year. But we're trying to make it all work regardless. The problem 
with the "there's a flint" solution is that everybody tries to get 
rid of the detail that he/she dislikes most <g>.

> Judy:  
> As for what is meant by "gang," let me point out that in PoA, the 
> teachers sitting around in the Three Broomsticks also describe the 
> Marauders as a gang.  So, I don't think the term "gang" necessarily 
> means all that much.  
> 

Neri:
That indeed would be the best solution, also for ACID POPS, but I 
still think it's possible, in some circumstances, to have a multi-
year gang.

> Judy:
> In GoF, Sirius says that nearly all of Snape's gang *became* Death 
> Eaters, not that they were Death Eaters while at Hogwarts. Also, 
> remember that Voldemort often tried to conceal Death Eaters' 
> identities even from each other; he wouldn't want a bunch of them 
> runninga round openly. Therefore, I don't see Snape's "gang of 
> Slytherins" at Hogwarts as having any explicit connection to 
> Voldemort, although some of them may have been *secretly* signing 
up 
> as Death Eaters while still at school.  
> 

Neri:
Yes, my point regarding June's suggestion was that there must have 
been something to label these students as "a gang" at school, before 
it was known they'll become DEs. I don't think June was suggesting 
that they were DEs already at school, but they could surely show 
their ideological support of Voldemort. When Sirius says in GoF 
that "almost all of them turned Death Eaters" it's already common 
knowledge that the Lestranges, Rosier and Wilkes were DEs, so the 
question is only how does Sirius knows about Avery, and I don't see 
this as a problem. Sirius was several years in the Order and later in 
Azkaban. He had enough opportunities to learn that Avery was a DE 
too. 

 
> > Judy:
> Well, I'm currently involved in a debate on June's Live Journal 
site 
> on whether Snape was mistreating other students (in particular, the 
> Marauders.)  My claim is that canon says Snape was *not* 
mistreating 
> the Marauders, at least not by the middle or so of sixth year.  My 
> support for this is:
> 
> -->  In the Pensieve scene in OoTP, we see Lily angrily ask 
> James, "What has he [Snape] done to you?"  If Snape were known to 
> terrorize the other students, this question would make no sense.
> -->  James' reply is that Snape hasn't done anything, "It's more 
the 
> fact that he exists."  Since James likes Lily and doesn't want her 
> angry at him, you'd think he would tell her if Snape had deserved 
to 
> be humiliated.
> -->  Harry comes to the conclusion that James & Sirius had no good 
> reason for attacking Snape. When Harry accuses Sirius of having 
> attacked Snape (after the O.W.L.s) out of mere boredom, Sirius 
> doesn't deny that.  "I'm not proud of it," is his sole response. 
> Remus then says that James & Sirius got carried away as students, 
and 
> Sirius says that they were sometimes "arrogant little berks."  
Still 
> no mention of Snape doing anything to deserve being humilated.
> --> In PoA, Remus says Sirius nearly got Snape killed (in reference 
> to the Prank.)  Sirius replies that Snape deserved it because he 
was 
> always sneaking around, trying to get the Marauders in trouble.  
That 
> seems to be the worst Snape was doing, as far as Sirius knew. 
> 
> Of course, this doesn't mean that Snape was an angel, but I 
conclude 
> that canon says the Marauders were bullying Snape, and not vice 
> versa. 

Neri:
Well, it would still fit my scenario if Snape himself were 
just "sneaking around" while the older gang members were doing the 
actual bullying. I was building my scenario to fit with two 
requirements:

(1) First-year Sirius should somehow perceive seventh-year Bella and 
first-year Severus as belonging to the same "gang of Slytherins". 

(2) In following years, Sirius must continue thinking of them as 
one "gang of Slytherins" even though Bella and probably some of the 
others had already left school. 

A first year student would usually take notice of the seventh years 
only if he absolutely must, and I can think of only one good reason 
why he would also associate them with another first year. This would 
be if the seventh years would terrorize the first years, and one of 
the first years would become their informer who is protected by them. 
Which happens to fit well with Sirius and James accusing Snape of 
Snivelling.

> Olivier:
> I will point again that if Slughorn was hosting three to four 
parties a year at Hogwarts at that 
> time, if Snape was invited, and if older students like the 
Lestranges showed up each time or 
> even regularly (all of this strongly suggested by canon), then 
Sirius would have be as justified 
> to say that Snape was hanging out with a gang of Slytherins as 
Malfoy would be justified to 
> say that Harry was hanging out with a gang of Weasleys (in fact 
even more so, Harrry sees the 
> Weasleys about thrice a year). And that would be pretty well 
justified in my opinion. Especially 
> since it is also strongly suggested that Sirius was invited to 
Slughorn's parties too, so he 
> would have had first-hand evidence that Snape was hanging out with 
his not-so-dear cousin 
> Bellatrix and her future husband.


Neri:
Yes, I was considering this solution too. However, Sirius in GoF 
seems to imply that "the gang" consisted of Slytherins only, most of 
them the future DEs that he recounted. My impression from HBP is that 
the slug club included considerably more students in a period of 
about 7 years, and that some of them would be from other houses as 
well. We know that one of them was a muggleborn Dirk Cresswell (who 
apparently wasn't suspected of being a DE if he became the head of 
the Goblin Liaison Office) and Lily was also invited. It seems more 
reasonable that "the gang of Slytherins" was indeed a kind of 
Voldemortjugend cell and that Sirius saw them together at his 
cousins' house. Not only was Bella one of the leaders, but we also 
know now that her mother was a Rosier, possibly the aunt of the 
Rosier in the gang. 

> Dungrollin:
> Actually, based on what Sirius and the rest of the wizarding world 
> knows/knew at the time, Lucius Malfoy did not turn out to be a 
Death 
> Eater. DD and lots of others undoubtedly suspected him of it, 
> but Lucius wasn't caught and captured and sent to Azkaban as a DE, 
> he wormed his way out by claiming he'd been under the Imperius 
> Curse. So Sirius may have included him in the gang, but only been 
> counting off those members who turned out to be Death Eaters for 
> certain. At this point, Sirius still doesn't know that Snape 
> actually was a DE, does he?
>

Neri:
Yes, I guess that could be an excuse, although Sirius did mention 
Avery in the category of "wormed his way out of Azkaban by claiming 
he'd been under the Imperius", so I'd expect him to know about Lucius 
too. Arthur certainly knew, and he didn't have any qualms telling Ron 
about it, before Ron even went to school, so you'd think Sirius would 
know too. 


Neri



------------------------------------------------
* For those of you who don't visit TOL anymore:

ACID POPS lite: Alas, Cissy Is Despondent. Perhaps Old Playmate 
Severus? 

ACID POPS extra strength: Alas, Cissy Is Despondent. Perhaps 
Obsessively Passionate Severus?

Both variations positing that Snape made the UV at Spinner's End out 
of certain tender feelings that Narcissa was stirring.