From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  1 05:54:00 2006
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:54:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <dp6vnb+qaca@...>
Message-ID: <20060101055400.83817.qmail@...>



--- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)"
<catlady at ...> wrote:
SNIP SNIP

> Maybe more people would read to the ends of your
> posts if they didn't
> have to scroll through so much quoted material
> first.
> 


Happy New Year!

I think this is the first post of 2006 replying to the
last post of 2005!


I knew if I said that no one would reply to my post
then someone would finally reply to my post!

I think Neville does not have to kill someone, but he
has to do something important and not bumble along
like usual.  JKR must allow him to grow up or he is
not interesting.  Neville scored the last points in
the first book.  So I think he is important in the
finale of the last book.

Red Eye Randy

who is a few sheets to the wind with a few glasses of
champagne and had fun with fireworks in the backyard

See YA





	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. 
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/



From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  1 11:34:45 2006
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:34:45 -0000
Subject: Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <20060101055400.83817.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dp8eol+sbpu@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com,  a slightly less-than-sober 
Red Eye Randy wrote:
> Neville scored the last points in
> the first book.  So I think he is important in the
> finale of the last book.
 


He scored the last points, the least number of points - but 
strategically, the most important points. For an action that, at the 
time, seemed well meaning but wrong.

If JKR is following the first book finale for the last book, 
Neville's contribution isn't going to be a spectacular one - merely 
utterly vital. {g}

But following the first book finale is a dangerous idea; the finale 
of the first book reveals that Snape ('Professor Snape, Harry') 
wasn't the real villain. In fact, he was trying to protect Harry all 
along {vbg}

Pip!Squeak
Raising her sleepy head from the Teacup of Lurkdom to wish everyone 
at The Old Crowd a Happy New Year!






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  1 19:37:17 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:37:17 +0000
Subject: Gazing over the parapet
Message-ID: <A4089288-0575-41B7-8B71-4A01862F9AD2@...>

Hell, another year already.
I'm sure someone must have fast-forwarded the last one...or two...  
make that five.

The starry-eyed optimists deserve everything they get (God rot 'em),  
but for the rest of us, those who've been repeatedly bashed round the  
ear 'ole by that sand-filled sock called life, Kneasy wishes you a  
negative year:-

May the gnurrs never come from the voodvork out,
may the stobor never bite you in the bum,
may the grues never find you when the lights go out,
and may your Snark never, ever be a Boojum.

That should do it.



From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  1 22:26:15 2006
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:26:15 +1100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Gazing over the parapet
In-Reply-To: <A4089288-0575-41B7-8B71-4A01862F9AD2@...>
References: <A4089288-0575-41B7-8B71-4A01862F9AD2@...>
Message-ID: <20060101222615.GA6897@...>

On Sun, Jan 01, 2006 at 07:37:17PM +0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> Hell, another year already.
> I'm sure someone must have fast-forwarded the last one...or two...  
> make that five.
> 
> The starry-eyed optimists deserve everything they get (God rot 'em),  
> but for the rest of us, those who've been repeatedly bashed round the  
> ear 'ole by that sand-filled sock called life, Kneasy wishes you a  
> negative year:-
> 
> May the gnurrs never come from the voodvork out,
> may the stobor never bite you in the bum,
> may the grues never find you when the lights go out,
> and may your Snark never, ever be a Boojum.
> 
> That should do it.

and may your shot finds the wumpus before he finds you!

-- 
Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.



From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 15:33:52 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:33:52 -0700
Subject: Jo's Chrissie pressie  WAS RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B95@...>

Barry wrote:
"Fertile ground for speculation. Best make hay while the sun is still
shining. I note that Jo's Chrissie pressie to fans consisted of stifling
a few more of the extant speculative threads. Probably didn't want us to
worry our little heads about such stuff.
How kind."

No, no, she wants another fandom blow-up to watch and entertain her. You
know she's sitting there with a bowl of popcorn in front of her monitor
cackling as fans goes into hysterics.

Seriously, I wish she wouldn't do it. She used to be very reticent about
squashing theories. I have to admit I really do believe that she *meant*
to squash the H/Hr ship early on with the "very platonic" remark (but
obviously didn't), but after that she went into a phase of not answering
questions about ships straight out. Same with theories. I think we all
remember the time she refused to answer a shipping question because she
said she enjoyed the shippers' arguments too much. Lately, some people
have been rather vindictive about that remark, saying that she was
taking delight in pain and hurt, but I believe there was an element of
not wanting to spoil her fans' fun in the remarks. 

Then at some point, she seems to have concluded that fandom discussions
were DESTRUCTIVE and she bore some responsibility for steering us away
from contentious issues. I'm not particularly sure that this strategy on
her part has worked at all. Are the shipping wars any less destructive
because she's finally crushed D/Hr, Luna/Neville, H/Hr, and any other
random Harry, Ginny, Hermione, or Ron ships? I plead guilty to finding
them amusing - in fact I've become a persona non grata in certain areas
of fandom for mocking the shippers I consider nuts, but yeah, they're
still raging. I think Jo could take a cue from them as to the utter
uselessness of squashing theories in an attempt to gain fandom peace.
Frankly, she's setting herself up for combatants to turn on her for
taking away their toys. 

Note I'm not saying she's malicious, or mean, or out of bounds. I just
don't think it's a wise strategy. And it's not like we got too ferocious
over Petunia being a witch or a Muggle, did we?

Eileen




From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 16:54:07 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:54:07 -0000
Subject: Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <dp8eol+sbpu@...>
Message-ID: <dpea7f+o4ir@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pip at e...> wrote:
 
> But following the first book finale is a dangerous idea; the finale 
> of the first book reveals that Snape ('Professor Snape, Harry') 
> wasn't the real villain. In fact, he was trying to protect Harry all 
> along {vbg}

Well, the idea that the seven books are following the seven PS/SS
tasks is still working out beautifully (logic! potions! and Snape!),
so besides what you just said, I'll be looking for mirrors, heart's
desires, and brilliant ideas of Dumbledore's.

> Pip!Squeak
> Raising her sleepy head from the Teacup of Lurkdom to wish everyone 
> at The Old Crowd a Happy New Year!

You've already brightened mine!  I was sorting through Harry posts for
the catalogue, slogging through unimaginative SHIPping posts and I
forget what else (definitely a low point in HPfGU, Harry-wise) when
suddenly, the skies cleared, the sun came out, and the next post was
Spy Games!  It slowed me down quite a bit, though, because I had to
read them leisurely--ly (in a leisurely manner :P).

Anne







From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 16:59:42 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:59:42 -0000
Subject: 'Twas etc. part 4.
In-Reply-To: <35A4CD70-A569-4D84-8923-20680C42A966@...>
Message-ID: <dpeahu+v4mg@...>

Salazar Slytherin said:  
> Accio totalus means just that  
> - you get everything - Basilisks, Cockatrices, Dragon Pox, Italy....  
> It took ages to sort out the mess in the Common-room.

Anne:
Ah, so *that's* why we have black holes.   The astronomers will never
figure that one out.  Lucky thing for us you were handy to deal with
that one before it was too late...


> Enlightenment dawned on Madam's features.
> "Oh, good! Just what I wanted to hear! And besides, if  I'm a little  
> more emphatic there won't be any misunderstandings, will there?"
> 
[...]
> 
> Smiling gently, Salazar slowly slid back into the Pensieve.


A very satisfying conclusion, thank you.

Anne







From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 17:19:07 2006
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (Constance Vigilance)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:19:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <dpea7f+o4ir@...>
Message-ID: <20060103171907.29800.qmail@...>



annemehr <annemehr at ...> wrote:    bluesqueak wrote:

> But following the first book finale is a dangerous idea; the finale 
> of the first book reveals that Snape ('Professor Snape, Harry') 
> wasn't the real villain. In fact, he was trying to protect Harry all 
> along {vbg}

>Then Annemehr:
   
  Well, the idea that the seven books are following the seven PS/SS
tasks is still working out beautifully (logic! potions! and Snape!),
so besides what you just said, I'll be looking for mirrors, heart's
desires, and brilliant ideas of Dumbledore's.

CV:
   
  Yes. Exactly. And I've been predicting "Nobody Expects Quirrell" in the 7th book for the last three books now. The final book will be about hearts' desires. And I'm still betting on the return of Quirrell, who has been spending the last 5 books discovering the difference between Good and Evil.
   
  ~ CV.


		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 20:42:14 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:42:14 -0000
Subject: 'Twas etc. part 4.
In-Reply-To: <dpeahu+v4mg@...>
Message-ID: <dpenj6+783h@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> wrote:

> > Enlightenment dawned on Madam's features.
> > "Oh, good! Just what I wanted to hear! And besides, if  I'm a little  
> > more emphatic there won't be any misunderstandings, will there?"
> > 
> [...]
> > 
> > Smiling gently, Salazar slowly slid back into the Pensieve.
> 
> 
> A very satisfying conclusion, thank you.
> 

Ta. My pleasure.

I've been trying to find a way to sneak some of the historical figures
into my confections and this seemed an ideal opportunity - doubly so,
'cos I reckon that anyone following the series would, like Hermy, expect
the last spirit to be DD. 

I've had a half-post (it's been festering in my files for nearly a year now) that 
doesn't yet gell as I'd like it to - it's Salazar's Diary, found in the Chamber 
and giving the low-down on that fateful parting of the ways. Maybe I ought
to dig it out and work on it some more, but... distractions, distractions.
And besides, the siren songs of Radio TBAY and the atrocities of Whiplash are
damn near irresistible, to me anyway - they're displacement activity now that 
so many theories are either on hold, or discussed until they're threadbare, or 
have been flushed down the pan by the author.
Got to get my fix somehow.

Kneasy 






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 20:50:33 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:50:33 -0700
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B9F@...>


--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> But if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind by 
> giving Lupin such an apparently passive role in the last two books.

I'll make an utterly unpopular suggestion.

Lupin has no place in the books anymore. As good guy, bad guy, you name it. His time is over. His appearances lately have been the work of a soft-hearted writer who wants to keep a favourite around but has nothing to do for him, except, stricken with hurt-comfort, give him a nice wife to soothe his werewolf brow. 

Lupin. Is. Ever. So. Pass?. 

Eileen




From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 21:15:42 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:15:42 -0000
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B9F@...>
Message-ID: <dpephu+jo53@...>

Lupin "might" be one of the few people to recognise the writing in 
the Diary, and be able to tell Harry, if it "is" Lily's rather than 
Snape's, perhaps. He might, possibly, be one of the few people to be 
able to help Harry uncover what really had happened with Snape. Even 
at the end, he does sound incredulous at the reason given for why 
Dumbledore trusted Snape: he "knows" it doesn't make sense, and must 
be wondering if there was more to it than that.

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> 
> > But if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind by 
> > giving Lupin such an apparently passive role in the last two 
books.
> 
> I'll make an utterly unpopular suggestion.
> 
> Lupin has no place in the books anymore. As good guy, bad guy, you 
name it. His time is over. His appearances lately have been the work 
of a soft-hearted writer who wants to keep a favourite around but 
has nothing to do for him, except, stricken with hurt-comfort, give 
him a nice wife to soothe his werewolf brow. 
> 
> Lupin. Is. Ever. So. Pass?. 
> 
> Eileen
>








From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 21:28:02 2006
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:28:02 +1100
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B9F@...>
References: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B9F@...>
Message-ID: <20060103212802.GB12187@...>

On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 01:50:33PM -0700, Eileen Rebstock wrote:
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> 
> > But if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind by 
> > giving Lupin such an apparently passive role in the last two books.
> 
> I'll make an utterly unpopular suggestion.
> 
> Lupin has no place in the books anymore. As good guy, bad guy, you name it. His time is over. His appearances lately have been the work of a soft-hearted writer who wants to keep a favourite around but has nothing to do for him, except, stricken with hurt-comfort, give him a nice wife to soothe his werewolf brow. 
> 
> Lupin. Is. Ever. So. Pass. 

I've dissed him too:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3587
 
but I also get a dig in at Ginny because I think both Lupin and Ginny are
cannon-fodder, and no doubt half a dozen others are ripe for novelistic
slaughter. I simply don't care about either of them.


-- 
Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.



From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 21:28:24 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:28:24 -0700
Subject: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA0@...>

You mean the textbook? 

I still don't see why the writing should be Lily's rather than Snape's. I know some people think the nickname "Half Blood Prince" was made up by Lily, but it seems much more likely to me it was coined by Bellatrix or one of the other gang of Slytherins. It certainly has a teasing tone, but I don't hear in it the apparently nice Lilyish teasing others do. Bellatrix might have wryly coined the nickname and Snape would have been grateful for it, because it a) was a sign of acceptance even if a bit disdainful and b) identified him with his mother's pureblood family.

-----Original Message-----
From: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com [mailto:the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alec
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:16 PM
To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape

Lupin "might" be one of the few people to recognise the writing in 
the Diary, and be able to tell Harry, if it "is" Lily's rather than 
Snape's, perhaps. He might, possibly, be one of the few people to be 
able to help Harry uncover what really had happened with Snape. Even 
at the end, he does sound incredulous at the reason given for why 
Dumbledore trusted Snape: he "knows" it doesn't make sense, and must 
be wondering if there was more to it than that.

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> 
> > But if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind by 
> > giving Lupin such an apparently passive role in the last two 
books.
> 
> I'll make an utterly unpopular suggestion.
> 
> Lupin has no place in the books anymore. As good guy, bad guy, you 
name it. His time is over. His appearances lately have been the work 
of a soft-hearted writer who wants to keep a favourite around but 
has nothing to do for him, except, stricken with hurt-comfort, give 
him a nice wife to soothe his werewolf brow. 
> 
> Lupin. Is. Ever. So. Pass?. 
> 
> Eileen
>








 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 







From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 22:00:05 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:00:05 -0000
Subject: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA0@...>
Message-ID: <dpes55+ulgf@...>

Yes, that "is" an intriguing idea! But do you get the impression 
from HBP that Snape ever had that degree of closeness with the much 
older Bellatrix? He was always closer to Narcissa, it seems.

The "lily's handwriting" idea comes from Hermione's suggestion that 
the handwriting in the diary looked like a woman's, the fact that 
using the diary made Slughorn think of the way "Lily" made potions, 
rather than Snape, and the probability that Snape and Lily had known 
each other in the Slug club, and the possibility that Slughorn might 
have paired his two star students together - he "did" try and make 
connections among his proteges, didn't he?

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> You mean the textbook? 
> 
> I still don't see why the writing should be Lily's rather than 
Snape's. I know some people think the nickname "Half Blood Prince" 
was made up by Lily, but it seems much more likely to me it was 
coined by Bellatrix or one of the other gang of Slytherins. It 
certainly has a teasing tone, but I don't hear in it the apparently 
nice Lilyish teasing others do. Bellatrix might have wryly coined 
the nickname and Snape would have been grateful for it, because it 
a) was a sign of acceptance even if a bit disdainful and b) 
identified him with his mother's pureblood family.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alec
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:16 PM
> To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All 
things Snape
> 
> Lupin "might" be one of the few people to recognise the writing in 
> the Diary, and be able to tell Harry, if it "is" Lily's rather 
than 
> Snape's, perhaps. He might, possibly, be one of the few people to 
be 
> able to help Harry uncover what really had happened with Snape. 
Even 
> at the end, he does sound incredulous at the reason given for why 
> Dumbledore trusted Snape: he "knows" it doesn't make sense, and 
must 
> be wondering if there was more to it than that.
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
> <erebstock at c...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" 
<foxmoth at q...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > > But if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind 
by 
> > > giving Lupin such an apparently passive role in the last two 
> books.
> > 
> > I'll make an utterly unpopular suggestion.
> > 
> > Lupin has no place in the books anymore. As good guy, bad guy, 
you 
> name it. His time is over. His appearances lately have been the 
work 
> of a soft-hearted writer who wants to keep a favourite around but 
> has nothing to do for him, except, stricken with hurt-comfort, 
give 
> him a nice wife to soothe his werewolf brow. 
> > 
> > Lupin. Is. Ever. So. Pass?. 
> > 
> > Eileen
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>







From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 22:14:27 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:14:27 -0000
Subject: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <dpes55+ulgf@...>
Message-ID: <dpet03+apev@...>

And Lily wrote Levicorpus and Sectumsempra "for enemies?"

Sweet!

Anne



--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Alec" <alec.dossetor at f...> wrote:
>
> Yes, that "is" an intriguing idea! But do you get the impression 
> from HBP that Snape ever had that degree of closeness with the much 
> older Bellatrix? He was always closer to Narcissa, it seems.
> 
> The "lily's handwriting" idea comes from Hermione's suggestion that 
> the handwriting in the diary looked like a woman's, the fact that 
> using the diary made Slughorn think of the way "Lily" made potions, 
> rather than Snape, and the probability that Snape and Lily had known 
> each other in the Slug club, and the possibility that Slughorn might 
> have paired his two star students together - he "did" try and make 
> connections among his proteges, didn't he?
> 
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
> <erebstock at c...> wrote:
> >
> > You mean the textbook? 
> > 
> > I still don't see why the writing should be Lily's rather than 
> Snape's. I know some people think the nickname "Half Blood Prince" 
> was made up by Lily, but it seems much more likely to me it was 
> coined by Bellatrix or one of the other gang of Slytherins. It 
> certainly has a teasing tone, but I don't hear in it the apparently 
> nice Lilyish teasing others do. Bellatrix might have wryly coined 
> the nickname and Snape would have been grateful for it, because it 
> a) was a sign of acceptance even if a bit disdainful and b) 
> identified him with his mother's pureblood family.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alec
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:16 PM
> > To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All 
> things Snape
> > 
> > Lupin "might" be one of the few people to recognise the writing in 
> > the Diary, and be able to tell Harry, if it "is" Lily's rather 
> than 
> > Snape's, perhaps. He might, possibly, be one of the few people to 
> be 
> > able to help Harry uncover what really had happened with Snape. 
> Even 
> > at the end, he does sound incredulous at the reason given for why 
> > Dumbledore trusted Snape: he "knows" it doesn't make sense, and 
> must 
> > be wondering if there was more to it than that.
> > 
> > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
> > <erebstock at c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" 
> <foxmoth at q...> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > But if that's where JKR is going, she's put herself in a bind 
> by 
> > > > giving Lupin such an apparently passive role in the last two 
> > books.
> > > 
> > > I'll make an utterly unpopular suggestion.
> > > 
> > > Lupin has no place in the books anymore. As good guy, bad guy, 
> you 
> > name it. His time is over. His appearances lately have been the 
> work 
> > of a soft-hearted writer who wants to keep a favourite around but 
> > has nothing to do for him, except, stricken with hurt-comfort, 
> give 
> > him a nice wife to soothe his werewolf brow. 
> > > 
> > > Lupin. Is. Ever. So. Pass?. 
> > > 
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>







From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 22:18:27 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:18:27 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA2@...>

Alec wrote:
>Yes, that "is" an intriguing idea! But do you get the impression 
>from HBP that Snape ever had that degree of closeness with the much 
>older Bellatrix? He was always closer to Narcissa, it seems.

*frowns* Just because JKR forgets GoF canon, it doesn't mean you should
too! 

It's GoF, when Sirius Black reminisces about his school days to the
trio. Snape, he said, hung out with a "gang of Slytherins" who included
Rosier, Avery, Wilkes, and "the Lestranges - they're a married couple."
I mean, honestly. I didn't write that fic out of nowhere. 

No mention of Narcissa, which is very odd, given HBP. Perhaps Snape and
Narcissa became friends later? Narcissa *does* call him her husband's
old friend, which makes me wonder if they got to really know each other
after Narcissa's marriage and through the DE connection, even if they
were at Hogwarts together. 

Of course, JKR's timelines are so muddled it's rather difficult to
theorize about exactly when what was going on. 

>The "lily's handwriting" idea comes from Hermione's suggestion that 
>the handwriting in the diary looked like a woman's, the fact that 
>using the diary made Slughorn think of the way "Lily" made potions, 
>rather than Snape, and the probability that Snape and Lily had known 
>each other in the Slug club, and the possibility that Slughorn might 
>have paired his two star students together - he "did" try and make 
>connections among his proteges, didn't he? 

I see. I'm not convinced. Well, not about the handwriting bit, I mean.
I'm convinced that Snape loved Lily. The real problem with this theory
is not that it's shaky - a lot of my favourite theories are - but that
it really seems to make Snape into a wuss. Who makes their girlfriend
write all their notes for them? Honestly? 

Eileen




From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 22:36:04 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:36:04 -0000
Subject: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA2@...>
Message-ID: <dpeu8k+sbra@...>

I know! Sirius' remarks in GoF were pretty definite, and gave me the 
impression that Bellatrix was a contemporary of Snape. In fact, I 
even concluded from that (and the family tree in OOTP, where 
Andromeda is shown as the middle sister) that Narcissa must have 
been the eldest.

The trouble is that HBP contradicts that directly. We have 
Dumbledore's own assurance that Bellatrix was the "eldest" - which 
means she was older even than Andromeda, and (by implication) means 
that the names of the sisters on the family tree begin with the 
oldest on the left, and the youngest on the right - which makes 
sense, I suppose. 

Of course, this makes nonsense of Sirius' remarks in GoF, but unless 
JKR has made a mistake, I think we must conclude that what Sirius 
tells Harry was rather biased, and that if he did go round with all 
of this gang, it was either a case of hanging on to some much older 
boys and girls, or else he went round with them "after" school. That 
is in fact not unlikely - Snape does seem to be a loner, when he's 
glimpsed in the pensieve scene - and doesn't seem to have a gang 
that will come round and support him, either then or later. There 
seems to be no prospect at all of that!

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Alec wrote:
> >Yes, that "is" an intriguing idea! But do you get the impression 
> >from HBP that Snape ever had that degree of closeness with the 
much 
> >older Bellatrix? He was always closer to Narcissa, it seems.
> 
> *frowns* Just because JKR forgets GoF canon, it doesn't mean you 
should
> too! 
> 
> It's GoF, when Sirius Black reminisces about his school days to the
> trio. Snape, he said, hung out with a "gang of Slytherins" who 
included
> Rosier, Avery, Wilkes, and "the Lestranges - they're a married 
couple."
> I mean, honestly. I didn't write that fic out of nowhere. 
> 
> No mention of Narcissa, which is very odd, given HBP. Perhaps 
Snape and
> Narcissa became friends later? Narcissa *does* call him her 
husband's
> old friend, which makes me wonder if they got to really know each 
other
> after Narcissa's marriage and through the DE connection, even if 
they
> were at Hogwarts together. 
> 
> Of course, JKR's timelines are so muddled it's rather difficult to
> theorize about exactly when what was going on. 
> 
> >The "lily's handwriting" idea comes from Hermione's suggestion 
that 
> >the handwriting in the diary looked like a woman's, the fact that 
> >using the diary made Slughorn think of the way "Lily" made 
potions, 
> >rather than Snape, and the probability that Snape and Lily had 
known 
> >each other in the Slug club, and the possibility that Slughorn 
might 
> >have paired his two star students together - he "did" try and 
make 
> >connections among his proteges, didn't he? 
> 
> I see. I'm not convinced. Well, not about the handwriting bit, I 
mean.
> I'm convinced that Snape loved Lily. The real problem with this 
theory
> is not that it's shaky - a lot of my favourite theories are - but 
that
> it really seems to make Snape into a wuss. Who makes their 
girlfriend
> write all their notes for them? Honestly? 
> 
> Eileen
>







From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 22:51:22 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:51:22 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA3@...>

Alec:
>"The trouble is that HBP contradicts that directly. We have 
Dumbledore's own assurance that Bellatrix was the "eldest" - which 
means she was older even than Andromeda, and (by implication) means 
that the names of the sisters on the family tree begin with the 
oldest on the left, and the youngest on the right - which makes 
sense, I suppose."

Particularly the bit about Andromeda's teenage pregnancy. Yep. That was
really inspiring. 

I don't really care if the timelines only work out if they have
Andromeda running off in her teens with Ted Tonks and marrying early. It
doesn't faze me with my historical acceptance of early marriage. But did
JKR intend that? I just can't see it.

>"Of course, this makes nonsense of Sirius' remarks in GoF,"

*headachey*

>"but unless JKR has made a mistake,"

UNLESS?

*eyes bulge a la Crouch*

>"I think we must conclude that what Sirius 
tells Harry was rather biased, and that if he did go round with all 
of this gang, it was either a case of hanging on to some much older 
boys and girls, or else he went round with them "after" school."

No, he's very specific about it being at school. 

>"That 
is in fact not unlikely - Snape does seem to be a loner, when he's 
glimpsed in the pensieve scene - and doesn't seem to have a gang 
that will come round and support him, either then or later. There 
seems to be no prospect at all of that!"

Well, if Bella was a couple years ahead of him, would that work out? It
does mesh with Sirius saying in OotP that he was Harry's age when he
last saw Bella.

And then Narcissa and Andromeda were twins. 

And I think it's clear Snape was a barely tolerated member? Tagging
after them? Derisively nicknamed "The Halfblood Prince?"

I never thought I'd say this, but I'll say it now, tongue somewhat
planted in cheek. My version was better.

Eileen




From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan  3 22:55:50 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:55:50 -0000
Subject: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA3@...>
Message-ID: <dpevdm+uuer@...>

Oh, your version of the Slytherins was great! 

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Alec:
> >"The trouble is that HBP contradicts that directly. We have 
> Dumbledore's own assurance that Bellatrix was the "eldest" - which 
> means she was older even than Andromeda, and (by implication) 
means 
> that the names of the sisters on the family tree begin with the 
> oldest on the left, and the youngest on the right - which makes 
> sense, I suppose."
> 
> Particularly the bit about Andromeda's teenage pregnancy. Yep. 
That was
> really inspiring. 
> 
> I don't really care if the timelines only work out if they have
> Andromeda running off in her teens with Ted Tonks and marrying 
early. It
> doesn't faze me with my historical acceptance of early marriage. 
But did
> JKR intend that? I just can't see it.
> 
> >"Of course, this makes nonsense of Sirius' remarks in GoF,"
> 
> *headachey*
> 
> >"but unless JKR has made a mistake,"
> 
> UNLESS?
> 
> *eyes bulge a la Crouch*
> 
> >"I think we must conclude that what Sirius 
> tells Harry was rather biased, and that if he did go round with 
all 
> of this gang, it was either a case of hanging on to some much 
older 
> boys and girls, or else he went round with them "after" school."
> 
> No, he's very specific about it being at school. 
> 
> >"That 
> is in fact not unlikely - Snape does seem to be a loner, when he's 
> glimpsed in the pensieve scene - and doesn't seem to have a gang 
> that will come round and support him, either then or later. There 
> seems to be no prospect at all of that!"
> 
> Well, if Bella was a couple years ahead of him, would that work 
out? It
> does mesh with Sirius saying in OotP that he was Harry's age when 
he
> last saw Bella.
> 
> And then Narcissa and Andromeda were twins. 
> 
> And I think it's clear Snape was a barely tolerated member? Tagging
> after them? Derisively nicknamed "The Halfblood Prince?"
> 
> I never thought I'd say this, but I'll say it now, tongue somewhat
> planted in cheek. My version was better.
> 
> Eileen
>







From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 09:39:29 2006
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:39:29 +0100
Subject: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <20060103212802.GB12187@...>
References: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B9F@...> <20060103212802.GB12187@...>
Message-ID: <200601041039.19340.silmariel@...>

ewe2:
> I've dissed him too:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3587
>  
> but I also get a dig in at Ginny because I think both Lupin and Ginny are
> cannon-fodder, and no doubt half a dozen others are ripe for novelistic
> slaughter. I simply don't care about either of them.

Lucky you.

The bets are he's a goner, but, he's more than meets the eye. This lovely 
teacher has made things we would be asking his blood had it been Snape the 
one involved.

Could Snape get away with protecting a mass murderer during a year and still 
be considered the Victim of Society and a good guy? But poor, ragged Lupin 
does. The kind of things that make me dislike the character. Hey, if Snape 
hadn't outed him, he should be fired, nevertheless.

Could Snape commit a pre-school fault involving magic, put someone else in 
danger (real danger, not blasted ended comicreliefguts) and not be considered 
a monster? Seems not, as far as the vow has gone. But Lupin can forget to 
drink his potion and Harry doesn't hate him for it. Poor, nice Lupin, sure, 
it was stress, or something like it. As if Harry could forget to grab his 
glasses as soon as he wakes up.

Eileen:
> Why we might even have people who believe Lupin is good one day!

We might even have people who believe he's a werewolf one day :) I don't even 
know if werewolves the Forbidden Forest are only a tale or a legend as the 
DADA curse.

Can Snape make outright contradictions in what he tells without being analysed 
word by word? Yet Lupin fragrantly transforms when moonstruck, instead of at 
night, as he told - supposedly that's why he was locked in blood-moon nights. 
If it's only how things work, why not clearly state it when Lupin told his 
version, why make the contradiction?

Do werewolves transform as Cinderellas, exactly at 12 in the appropiate 
nights, his change is forced when the lunar phase change (but that would make 
for only a night, not the usual three), or is he just a half werewolf as Bill 
is hinted to become, a favourite early experiment of Greyback, who wasn't 
able to get in control as a teenager but has matured? 

That could explain why he's still alive, I don't know how's he suppossed to 
spy on werewolves, he smells as DDM, unless he's a very good actor, but that 
brings us to the Snape point, if we distrust him for being a spy, why not 
Lupin?

I know the hurt-comfort, liked Rowling teacher, is easy to see, but he's more 
than that, he have enough seeds planted for him to be a bastard, IMO, the 
character could go both ways, we can't assume that because a character is 
based in someone she liked, as an author she is unable to make an original 
character to be used however she pleases.

Now on Pippin's idea that Lupin puppeteered all the Prank, I don't buy it 
because it deprives me of the only reason I know for Lupin to betray his 
friends in full fashion (give me another one as personal and canon as that 
and I'll change my mind). 

I've done the little exercise of reevaluating his PoV in the prank, as if I 
had to play with his character sheet, and I feel... sold, and very cheaply, 
by the people I'm most supposed to trust - trust your friends, Harry, says 
DD. Well, I'm not stupid (mainly because Lupin isn't), and my friends have 
put me in a position of being a killer and an outcast all my life, and why? 
because they hated someone and wanted some laughs on him? oh, so they used 
me, betrayed me, just for that. My friends. Sure - sure they are not. Thanks 
James reacted (and was quick), or I'd be a killer, period, but nonetheless, 
Snape, that guy who loves me so much, knows. Who exactly should I trust from 
now on? If you are roleplaying (as opposed to RL), that's enough reason for 
player killing as revenge (you can do it or not, but if you do, everyone will 
know the reason). Sirius at least.

Kneasy:
> Surfacing after the seasonal surfeit.

> We've come to expect (though it may be unjustified) that the form of ones
> Patronus is an indication of character - yet we don't know what ectoplasmal
> beastie Lupin produces - despite his having conjured it on the Express in
> PoA. Very suspicious, to my way of thinking. 

Very thestral like, yes.

> Throw in that he was quite
> conversational with that first Dementor (as DADA one would expect him  to
> be aware that, as DD said "They are not open to pleading or excuses," or
> persuasion, I'd expect), so suspicious minds could be excused for wondering
> what's going on.

Well, if Sirius is sincere, someone had to release him of Azkaban, and that 
one knew Peter was a rat (no, I don't consider the photo casual, I think the 
Weasleys were arranged as winners). Mainly because if believing in his words, 
Sirius' mind was so overbrainwashed he didn't even consider it possible (so 
much full of contradictions and plot holes and not noticing... either he 
lies, or he hasn't much mind left).

> And that battered case with the peeling name - an unemployable professor?
> So how did he get the appellation? His father's, some think - but. What are
> the odds that he has a father that a) was in the teaching profession and b)
> had exactly the same initials as Lupin. Pretty long, I'd think. So  has he
> been teaching elsewhere at some time or other? And what teaching
> establishment would that be?  SFAIK there's been no depiction of Lupin
> meeting any of the Durmstrang mob. Pity; it might answer a few questions.

For example, why Narcissa didn't want her child in Durmstrang. That first trip 
to the Forest, with Draco scared of werewolves, could have another lecture if 
he meets his fate - that euphemism for being slaughtered - in the forest by a 
werewolf. Know that I think it, Draco's boggart has a good chance of being a 
werewolf.

Silmariel




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 10:59:33 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:59:33 -0000
Subject: Who'd have thought it? was: Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA2@...>
Message-ID: <dpg9ql+f1kb@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" <erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> *frowns* Just because JKR forgets GoF canon, it doesn't mean you should
> too! 
>snip> 
> 
> Of course, JKR's timelines are so muddled it's rather difficult to
> theorize about exactly when what was going on. 
> 

Y-e-e-e-s. 
Dodgy maths, dodgy timelines, occasional dodgy recall of canon.
Sometimes one wonders if Jo could hold her own in some of the
convoluted analysis threads that occasionally grace the boards.
There might be a good reason for this - if you give credence to
a little snippet in the current issue of 'Locus':-

*Pseudo-Potter*

"J.K.Rowling announced during a BBC radio interview she will use a
pseudonym for post-Potter writing. She wants her future work to be
judged away from the success of the Potter series.

Norwegian film director Nina Grunfeld questioned the authenticity of
J.K.Rowling, claiming she may be an actress representing a group of
writers using the pseudonym for the series, in an article for Norwegian
newspaper Aftenposten. She likened J.K.Rowling to Carolyn Keene, the
ficticious author of the Nancy Drew Series. [...] The photo of Grunfeld,
oddly enough, looks just like Rowling."

Ah, I see it all, now.
It's gonna be a repeat of that Shakespeare authorship theory - the plays
weren't written by William Shakespeare, but by someone else with exactly
the same name.
Cunning ploy.

Kneasy






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 13:34:18 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:34:18 +0000
Subject: Give a dog a bad name
Message-ID: <E85C445C-383D-4359-AB1F-5383BF1AAD6D@...>

Some firm views being expressed re: Lupin at  the moment.
These and a name mentioned in an off-site mail from Rebecca garnering  
opinions on certain aspects of Draco (yep; I'll give it some skull  
time, promise - but just now I'm flitting about like a leaden  
butterfly) brings me back to a line that I've ranted about previously.
Names.

IMO the only excitement likely to be forthcoming about Remus is who  
he really is.

It's too fantastic that his parents would give him a name so  
apposite, so fitting, for someone who years later would contract a  
specific incurable disease.
I've muttered into my beard before that it must be his nom de chien,  
assumed when his medical condition (and pariah status) became  
evident. Otherwise it'd be the equivalent of a RL individual being  
named Bitz Dropoff and later contracting leprosy.

Then there was Rebecca's mail - in which she mentioned Fenrir Greyback.
Bugger me! Another one!
One is bad enough - but two!?!
Another werewolf, both of whose names have wolfish associations.
Now come on. Are we expected to swallow the idea that werewolves are  
preferentially attracted to those with lupine cognomens? Do they flip  
through the WW population census searching for suitable victims?  
"Felix Scratch, no... he's due for feline leukaemia; Bodley Harm,  
no... he's gonna get Crucio-ed; ah! here's one! Cubby Loup! Yes, he's  
gonna be one of ours. Next full moon."

Or are their respective parents gifted with prophetic foresight and  
thus able to make appropriate arrangements when naming their to-be- 
afflicted-sometime-in-the-future offspring?

It's generally accepted that Jo takes a great deal of care in  
choosing names. What about in the two werewolf characters? Has she  
indulged in a little premature nomenclature? Foisting ludicrously  
prophetic and descriptive names onto cast members? Or is it something  
we should take note of?

Here's an outside possibility - when entered into the Werewolf  
Register, werewolves are given new, descriptive names that give fair  
warning to all contacts of just what they're dealing with. A  
werewolf. It's that or lock 'em up for the protection of the public.  
Protects the family name, too.
Sound feasible?

If that is the case - just who is/was Lupin?

Kneasy




From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 16:13:22 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:13:22 -0700
Subject: Sirius, Bella, Snape WAS Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA5@...>

Alec:
>"That 
>is in fact not unlikely - Snape does seem to be a loner, when he's 
>glimpsed in the pensieve scene - and doesn't seem to have a gang 
>that will come round and support him, either then or later. There 
>seems to be no prospect at all of that!"

Me: 
>I think it's clear Snape was a barely tolerated member? Tagging
>after them? Derisively nicknamed "The Halfblood Prince?"

I had a bit of an inspiration last night thinking about the problem. It
came to me that there's actually a perfectly reasonable explanation for
why no one steps forward for Snape in the pensieve scene in OotP. The
identity of the aggressor. 

Sirius Black may have displeased his family by being sorted into
Gryffindor and hanging out with the wrong sort, but he didn't break with
them till the end of fifth year. The end of fifth year is also when he
last saw Bellatrix, if we can believe his "I last saw her before Azkaban
at your age" story he tells Harry in OotP as precisely accurate.
Bellatrix two years ahead of Sirius at least makes it credible she could
have had some collaborative acquaintance with Snape. The more I think
about it, I think that, dating problems with Andromeda's pregnancy
aside, this is probably what JKR has in mind. 

Anyway, why no one intervened for Snape. I don't think Bella and Sirius
interfered with each other much at school. A mutual dislike would not
have changed the fact that they were family and bound to present a
united front or reap the consequences at home. Towards the end, Sirius
may have stopped caring. Bella, on the other hand, would have felt the
need to maintain family unity keenly until Sirius betrayed the family
entirely. 

Was Sirius's targeting of Snape a *safe* way to show his anger against
his family? Unable to take out his anger on Bellatrix, or on her close
friends, all of whom were likely linked to the Blacks by centuries of
friendship and marriage, did Sirius focus on the half-blood Snape who
was only on the fringes of the Slytherin group? In fact the person that
Bellatrix and the others would lose their reputation as properly proud
pureblood wizards and witches by defending too vigorously? "You took a
half-blood's side against your own kin?" would be the question at home. 

But when Sirius leaves home, he becomes a blood traitor, and suddenly
it's all very different. Up till then, Snape was perhaps more sinned
against than sinning. After all, Lily challenges James to explain why
Snape's being bullied so, and James can't even come up with a list of
evil things Snape's done to the younger kids. Now however, Snape can be
'supported' by his fellows. Of course by 'support,' I mean 'get
recruited into the Death Eaters.' He is so very bitter. He's become
increasingly nasty over the years, trying to fit in, leading up to
calling erstwhile friend and potions partner Lily a mudblood. (One gets
the feeling from that scene he'd never said that to her before.) The
Shrieking Shack incident cements his hatred for not only Sirus and
James, but for Dumbledore who lets them get away with it. Suddenly, he's
presented with an opportunity to fit in. Bellatrix isn't at school
anymore, but be sure she's keeping tabs on the Slytherin students via
her friends in the younger year, perhaps even via the most amiable
Slughorn who thought Bellatrix was hot stuff. Did Bella get invited to
his school parties even after she left school? Are those parties where
Snape got to know the older Lucius well enough for Narcissa to refer to
him as "my husband's friend?" No doubt Bella was encouraging people to
take revenge against her disowned cousin. 

All of which begs the question, how did Bella first connect to
Voldemort, anyway? 

Eileen




From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 16:21:11 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:21:11 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Give a dog a bad name
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA6@...>

Kneazy:
>Then there was Rebecca's mail - in which she mentioned Fenrir Greyback.
>Bugger me! Another one!
>One is bad enough - but two!?!
>Another werewolf, both of whose names have wolfish associations.

I guess I'd assumed Fenrir Greyback was his nom-de-guerre. His real name
was Jeremiah Smith (a relative of Zachariah and Hephzibah), but he
realized that no would could spread terror with that name - worse even
than being Tom Riddle - and besides, everyone would know he was a
Hufflepuff. So he reincarnated himself as the fearsome Fenrir Greyback
of no known antecedents. Probably refuses to admit he was bitten these
days. He insists he's always been a wolf, has nothing human about him
except shape. 

Eileen




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 16:48:06 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:48:06 -0000
Subject: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <200601041039.19340.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dpgu87+jii8@...>

Silmariel:
> 
> Can Snape make outright contradictions in what he tells without being analysed 
> word by word? Yet Lupin fragrantly transforms when moonstruck, instead of at 
> night, as he told - supposedly that's why he was locked in blood-moon nights. 
> If it's only how things work, why not clearly state it when Lupin told his 
> version, why make the contradiction?

Pippin:
Lupin does not transform at night per se, he transforms during a period controlled
by the full moon. He is absent from classes and a Quidditch game, both
of which take place in daytime. Furthermore, as I've just pointed out on TOL,
Fenrir can predict the time of his transformations closely enough to
position himself near specific victims. The moon's appearance from behind
a cloud in PoA has the distinct odor of a  scarlet  fishy.

Silmariel:
> Now on Pippin's idea that Lupin puppeteered all the Prank, I don't buy it 
> because it deprives me of the only reason I know for Lupin to betray his 
> friends in full fashion (give me another one as personal and canon as that 
> and I'll change my mind). 
> 
> I've done the little exercise of reevaluating his PoV in the prank, as if I 
> had to play with his character sheet, and I feel... sold, and very cheaply, 
> by the people I'm most supposed to trust - trust your friends, Harry, says 
> DD. Well, I'm not stupid (mainly because Lupin isn't), and my friends have 
> put me in a position of being a killer and an outcast all my life, and why? 
> because they hated someone and wanted some laughs on him? oh, so they used 
> me, betrayed me, just for that. My friends. Sure - sure they are not. Thanks 
> James reacted (and was quick), or I'd be a killer, period, but nonetheless, 
> Snape, that guy who loves me so much, knows. Who exactly should I trust from 
> now on? If you are roleplaying (as opposed to RL), that's enough reason for 
> player killing as revenge (you can do it or not, but if you do, everyone will 
> know the reason). Sirius at least.

Pippin:
Does your character sheet indicate that Lupin counted the times his
friends let him court exposure in Hogsmeade as  the happiest  days in his 
life?  Lupin did not dread exposure, even the risk of killing,  as much as 
he dreaded the loss of those outings. 

But there would have been no risk of exposure in the prank if James had 
not interfered. 

If Snape fought  to the death he would tell no tales, if he was bitten, he 
would have the best of reasons to keep Lupin's secret. He would also be in 
no condition to spy on the Marauders while Lupin was transformed.  
There would be blood and signs of a struggle, but those were 
normal in the wake of Lupin's transformations, and a corpse is easy 
for a wizard to conceal -- just  transfigure it into a bone and bury 
it later. Snape would have disappeared like Montague, and only the 
Marauders the wiser. 

I don't suppose Lupin was best pleased with the way things went, but
the outings could go on and that was the important thing, 
the only thing that made his transformations bearable. But what happened 
when James grew up, and began to realize what idiots they were being?
Once their guilty feelings awoke, James and Sirius weren't the sort to
set them aside.   It had to stop, didn't it?   Lupin had put aside his guilty 
feelings, oh so many times, disgraced himself as a prefect, but they 
weren't prepared to do the same  for him. It must have felt like the 
worst betrayal in the world.

And then Lupin found some fine new friends to transform with...

Most likely Sirius had to die because he knew too much. "Harry, take
the prophecy and run!" or words to that effect. Sounds like Sirius
knew what the prophecy was, knew where it could be found, and
thought that Harry knew too. But only a Death Eater could have
told Sirius that. Dumbledore and Snape knew that Harry didn't
have a clue which prophecy Voldemort was after.
 
Pippin
who likes Kneasy's idea of noms de chien, but thinks that werewolves and
textbook authors are cursed with prophetic names the better to 
remind us that this is a toy universe. Some things are only painted on.

Oh, and JKR's  attitude toward speculation? Well,  she's gone native,  
that's all.  Can't imagine that we wouldn't want to be *thrifty*  with 'em






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 16:49:59 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:49:59 -0000
Subject: Give a dog a bad name
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA6@...>
Message-ID: <dpgubn+362t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" <erebstock at c...> wrote:
> 
> I guess I'd assumed Fenrir Greyback was his nom-de-guerre. His real name
> was Jeremiah Smith (a relative of Zachariah and Hephzibah), but he
> realized that no would could spread terror with that name - worse even
> than being Tom Riddle - and besides, everyone would know he was a
> Hufflepuff. So he reincarnated himself as the fearsome Fenrir Greyback
> of no known antecedents. Probably refuses to admit he was bitten these
> days. He insists he's always been a wolf, has nothing human about him
> except shape. 
> 

A likely tale!
Still, Smith ain't a bad name, even though it's too truncated for my tastes.
Anyway, being a Huffy would fit the image - "I'll huff and I'll puff.." big bad 
wolf stuff par excellence.

Nope, there's something distinctly gamey about these were-wolf names IMO.
I may be wrong, but I ain't uncertain. 
Us paranoids have to stand by our convictions.

Kneasy







From exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 16:48:35 2006
From: exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:48:35 -0000
Subject: Give a dog a bad name
In-Reply-To: <E85C445C-383D-4359-AB1F-5383BF1AAD6D@...>
Message-ID: <dpgu93+6pmq@...>

> Kneasy wrote:

> Here's an outside possibility - when entered into the Werewolf  
> Register, werewolves are given new, descriptive names that give 
fair  
> warning to all contacts of just what they're dealing with. A  
> werewolf. It's that or lock 'em up for the protection of the 
public.  
> Protects the family name, too.
> Sound feasible?

> If that is the case - just who is/was Lupin?

Sounds very feasible and nicely allows for wolves like Fenrir to 
revel in their vile hatred of humans and their lupine prejudice.  

However wouldn't the WW know this? And if so renders Snape's reveal 
of Lupin to the parents of Hogwarts redundant.  Wolf name equals 
werewolf?  It couldn't be something the MoM could keep secret, not 
for very long with all people named wolf disappearing every full 
moon. 

My thought was that perhaps it is the werewolf culture itself that 
dictates a new name when joining the clan.  In order to be accepted 
as a true non-human you discard your human name and assume a 
decidedly wolfish one.  

Of course this would imply that Lupin had joined the werewolf-
kingdom as some point in his life? I suppose it adds fuel to the ESE!
Lupin camp. And if so why keep his name when starting Hogwarts?  To 
protect his family?? Human. Possible.

Random thoughts, sorry.  Hopefully more coherent once will immerge 
soon.

Mandy, surfacing from lurkdom.










From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 17:22:41 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:22:41 -0000
Subject: Sirius, Bella, Snape WAS Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA5@...>
Message-ID: <dph091+gbe4@...>

Yes, that would explain a lot of things!

At this point, of course, Snape would still be something of an 
outsider, as he doesn't seem to have helped the Slytherins in any 
bullying of younger kids - assuming at that Bella and co did do this 
sort of thing while at school, which would be in character for 
Bella, but we don't know for certain yet: all the concrete evidence 
so far is against the Gryffindors!

But of course, Snape would have to reject "Lily's" support in as 
hostile a way as he possibly could, if he was to have any hope at 
all of getting closer to that gang of his fellow-slytherins. If he 
accepted Lily's support they would turn on him completely, and he'd 
be finished where they were concerned. In fact, since they were in 
his own house, they could make his life "extremely" unpleasant. 

Gosh, now I'm thinking of Mark Studdock in That Hideous Strength, 
who abandoned his only real friend while at school, to get into 
some "inner ring" - except that Snape's decision here had far more 
reason behind it, and at the same time it was far more final, and 
fatal too. It says something that it is described as his "worst 
memory." 

Alec

--- In the_old_crowd at ...m, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Alec:
> >"That 
> >is in fact not unlikely - Snape does seem to be a loner, when 
he's 
> >glimpsed in the pensieve scene - and doesn't seem to have a gang 
> >that will come round and support him, either then or later. There 
> >seems to be no prospect at all of that!"
> 
> Me: 
> >I think it's clear Snape was a barely tolerated member? Tagging
> >after them? Derisively nicknamed "The Halfblood Prince?"
> 
> I had a bit of an inspiration last night thinking about the 
problem. It
> came to me that there's actually a perfectly reasonable 
explanation for
> why no one steps forward for Snape in the pensieve scene in OotP. 
The
> identity of the aggressor. 
> 
> Sirius Black may have displeased his family by being sorted into
> Gryffindor and hanging out with the wrong sort, but he didn't 
break with
> them till the end of fifth year. The end of fifth year is also 
when he
> last saw Bellatrix, if we can believe his "I last saw her before 
Azkaban
> at your age" story he tells Harry in OotP as precisely accurate.
> Bellatrix two years ahead of Sirius at least makes it credible she 
could
> have had some collaborative acquaintance with Snape. The more I 
think
> about it, I think that, dating problems with Andromeda's pregnancy
> aside, this is probably what JKR has in mind. 
> 
> Anyway, why no one intervened for Snape. I don't think Bella and 
Sirius
> interfered with each other much at school. A mutual dislike would 
not
> have changed the fact that they were family and bound to present a
> united front or reap the consequences at home. Towards the end, 
Sirius
> may have stopped caring. Bella, on the other hand, would have felt 
the
> need to maintain family unity keenly until Sirius betrayed the 
family
> entirely. 
> 
> Was Sirius's targeting of Snape a *safe* way to show his anger 
against
> his family? Unable to take out his anger on Bellatrix, or on her 
close
> friends, all of whom were likely linked to the Blacks by centuries 
of
> friendship and marriage, did Sirius focus on the half-blood Snape 
who
> was only on the fringes of the Slytherin group? In fact the person 
that
> Bellatrix and the others would lose their reputation as properly 
proud
> pureblood wizards and witches by defending too vigorously? "You 
took a
> half-blood's side against your own kin?" would be the question at 
home. 
> 
> But when Sirius leaves home, he becomes a blood traitor, and 
suddenly
> it's all very different. Up till then, Snape was perhaps more 
sinned
> against than sinning. After all, Lily challenges James to explain 
why
> Snape's being bullied so, and James can't even come up with a list 
of
> evil things Snape's done to the younger kids. Now however, Snape 
can be
> 'supported' by his fellows. Of course by 'support,' I mean 'get
> recruited into the Death Eaters.' He is so very bitter. He's become
> increasingly nasty over the years, trying to fit in, leading up to
> calling erstwhile friend and potions partner Lily a mudblood. (One 
gets
> the feeling from that scene he'd never said that to her before.) 
The
> Shrieking Shack incident cements his hatred for not only Sirus and
> James, but for Dumbledore who lets them get away with it. 
Suddenly, he's
> presented with an opportunity to fit in. Bellatrix isn't at school
> anymore, but be sure she's keeping tabs on the Slytherin students 
via
> her friends in the younger year, perhaps even via the most amiable
> Slughorn who thought Bellatrix was hot stuff. Did Bella get 
invited to
> his school parties even after she left school? Are those parties 
where
> Snape got to know the older Lucius well enough for Narcissa to 
refer to
> him as "my husband's friend?" No doubt Bella was encouraging 
people to
> take revenge against her disowned cousin. 
> 
> All of which begs the question, how did Bella first connect to
> Voldemort, anyway? 
> 
> Eileen
>







From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 18:11:55 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:11:55 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Give a dog a bad name
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA8@...>

Amanda:
 However wouldn't the WW know this? And if so renders Snape's reveal
> of Lupin to the parents of Hogwarts redundant.  Wolf name equals
> werewolf?  It couldn't be something the MoM could keep secret, not
> for very long with all people named wolf disappearing every full
> moon.

This is exactly my problem with the idea. Sirius, James, and Peter
didn't figure it out either for a full year in the same dormitory, while
no one else at Hogwarts figured it out at all, as far as we know. Can
official policy really be such a secret? And if it were a dark secret
known only to Newt Scamander himself, what would be the point of the
name change in the first place? 

> My thought was that perhaps it is the werewolf culture itself that
> dictates a new name when joining the clan.  In order to be accepted
> as a true non-human you discard your human name and assume a
> decidedly wolfish one.
> 
> Of course this would imply that Lupin had joined the werewolf-
> kingdom as some point in his life? 

Is there any evidence in canon of a werewolf kingdom? Or clans? I can't
recall.

But as for Lupin, canon seems to be quite clear that he lived with
parents who were devoted to him after his bite. 

> I suppose it adds fuel to the ESE!
> Lupin camp. 

I'd contend only along the same lines that if wishes were horses,
beggars could ride. If this far-fetched theory which goes against most
canonical evidence were true, then indeed Lupin would be massively
conspiracy-involved.  

I'm pulling out A.N.T.I.T.H.E.S.I.S. on this one, which from memory I
believe went "All Nice Theories I Think. However, Every Supposition Is
Strained." ;-)

Pippin:
> who likes Kneasy's idea of noms de chien, but thinks that werewolves
and
> textbook authors are cursed with prophetic names the better to
> remind us that this is a toy universe. Some things are only painted
on.

That could be it. Of course, my new theory is going to be that JKR is
reporting real facts, and has changed the names from the original quite
boring ones to protect the wizarding world! 

*sees Faith glaring at her*

Oh, ok. You're right.

Eileen




From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 18:34:03 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:34:03 -0000
Subject: Sirius, Bella, Snape WAS Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA5@...>
Message-ID: <dph4er+9co5@...>

Eileen asks:
> 
> All of which begs the question, how did Bella first connect to
> Voldemort, anyway? 


Kathy W:
She met him through her husband/husband to be. The senior Lestrange (I 
assume the father) was part of Tom Riddle's group visiting Slughorn in 
the horcrux memory. (chapter 23)






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 18:41:16 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:41:16 -0000
Subject: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA3@...>
Message-ID: <dph4sc+10lrg@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" <erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Alec:
> >"The trouble is that HBP contradicts that directly. We have 
> Dumbledore's own assurance that Bellatrix was the "eldest" - which 
> means she was older even than Andromeda, and (by implication) means 
> that the names of the sisters on the family tree begin with the 
> oldest on the left, and the youngest on the right - which makes 
> sense, I suppose."

Eileen:
> Particularly the bit about Andromeda's teenage pregnancy. Yep. That was
> really inspiring. 
> 
> I don't really care if the timelines only work out if they have
> Andromeda running off in her teens with Ted Tonks and marrying early. It
> doesn't faze me with my historical acceptance of early marriage. But did
> JKR intend that? I just can't see it.
> 

Pippin:
Molly mentions that lots of people are rushing into marriage just like
last time Voldemort was in power. So whether JKR specifically realized
she had Andromeda and Ted marry quite young or not, she knows it's a 
feature of her world. RL teen marriages where the partners are eighteen,
and not poor or pregnant succeed as often as other marriages, so what's
the fuss? She does show us that Merope's teen marriage, based on
infatuation and coercion, collapsed very quickly.

And, um, JKR might be traditional enough to think it's better to marry
than to burn.

In regards to Sirius not mentioning Narcissa, he was talking about the
members of  the gang who became Death Eaters. Since AFAWK
Narcissa had never been accused, he wouldn't have mentioned her.

Pippin






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 18:39:59 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:39:59 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Sirius, Bella, Snape WAS Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64BB3@...>

> Eileen asks:
> >
> > All of which begs the question, how did Bella first connect to
> > Voldemort, anyway?
> 
> 
> Kathy W:
> She met him through her husband/husband to be. The senior Lestrange (I
> assume the father) was part of Tom Riddle's group visiting Slughorn in
> the horcrux memory. (chapter 23)
> 

Thanks. I couldn't remember who it was in the older generation close to
Tom. Well, other than Avery Sr. And somehow the spectre of Avery Jr.
bringing Bella to Voldemort made me laugh. 




From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 18:43:08 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:43:08 -0000
Subject: Give a dog a bad name - hiding the wizarding world
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA8@...>
Message-ID: <dph4vs+mfc6@...>


> 
> That could be it. Of course, my new theory is going to be that JKR is
> reporting real facts, and has changed the names from the original 
quite
> boring ones to protect the wizarding world! 
> 

I've wondered that sometimes too! :-)

It would also explain certain discrepancies in the canon. The simple 
answer is that there are discrepancies (and even mistakes) in the 
facts as they have been reported to the author by her various 
wizarding sources, and maybe some bias and propaganda, too - some of 
it unintentional!

And quite possibly there are things about magic (and its relationship 
with Muggle science) that even wizards don't fully understand - and so 
JKR does her best to interpret what she hears, when she presents it to 
her Muggle readers! And some of it (especially the background) may 
even have been deliberately changed, again to protect the wizarding 
world! No wonder some things don't seem to make sense! :-)

*Starts dreaming up new conspiracy theories!* :-)








From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 18:59:25 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:59:25 -0000
Subject: Sirius, Bella, Snape WAS Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64BB3@...>
Message-ID: <dph5ud+mp8p@...>

Eileen: 
> Thanks. I couldn't remember who it was in the older generation close 
to
> Tom. Well, other than Avery Sr. And somehow the spectre of Avery Jr.
> bringing Bella to Voldemort made me laugh.
>

Kathy W:
That has Lestrange, Prince, Avery, and Rosier(?) from Riddle's Hogwarts 
years having kids in Slytherin during the Marauders' years. Toss in 
McGonagall and Hagrid as well, and it's a close knit group.







From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 19:19:33 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:19:33 -0700
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA9@...>

> Pippin:
> Molly mentions that lots of people are rushing into marriage just like
> last time Voldemort was in power. So whether JKR specifically realized
> she had Andromeda and Ted marry quite young or not, she knows it's a
> feature of her world. 
> RL teen marriages where the partners are eighteen,
> and not poor or pregnant succeed as often as other marriages, so
what's
> the fuss? 

Oh, the problem isn't that Andromeda and Ted were in their teens when
Nymphadora came along, but that it's very difficult to make the timeline
work without them still being in school. 

Let me try to work it out.

July 31, 1980 - Harry Potter born 

September 1, 1991 - Harry Potter enters Hogwarts. Tonks not there.
Supposing her seventh year was 1990/91, she was seventeen at the
youngest that year. 

Which gives us a birthdate of August 31, 1973 at the very latest.

And yet supposedly MWPP left Hogwarts in June 1978. 

If Andromeda is the youngest of the three sisters, as the family tree
combined with "Will and Won't" would indicate, that means that if
Andromeda married and had Tonks after finishing Hogwarts, it'd be June
1972 that she'd leave school. 

Which would mean that unless Bellatrix, Narcissa, and Andromeda are
triplets, which would be a bit much, imho, the older sisters couldn't
even be at Hogwarts at the same time as Snape. Mind you, if they were
triplets we still have Sirius talking about Snape spending his school
days hanging out with a gang of Slytherins that are 17 years old and
gone within a year to his eleven years!

However, a possible solution has just occurred to me. Fear my retconning
skills.

Do we actually have any evidence that Tonks is seven years older than
Harry? The assumption is made because Tonks wasn't at Hogwarts when
Harry showed up. Yet if Tonks was not at Hogwarts at any time, she can
be a good deal younger. 

I'll quote Alec's private objection to me:
>Where else could she have gone? It does seem to have been the only
English >wizarding school, and Durmstrang probably wouldn't have taken a
half-blood. >Some wizards don't go to school at all, of course, and they
learn things at >home from parents, from family friends and from
textbooks, and they >probably learn at least as much as most people do
at Hogwarts - but they >probably don't make useful connections, and it
may perhaps be harder for >them to sit exams. Not that I think that
would make very much difference >most of the time, but I suspect that it
probably "does" make it harder for >them to get a Ministry job -
connections and examinations (and fitting a >pattern) are probably more
important there. What do you think?

Beauxbatons! 

The idea of sending Nymphadora to a school where she wouldn't suffer the
reprisals of Andromeda's large group of relatives might have been
important to Andromeda and Ted. Particularly if Andromeda remembered
very well the fate of fellow housemate (for Slughorn indicates all the
Blacks except Sirius were in Slytheriin) half-blood Severus Snape who
suffered hurt from both sides at Hogwarts. 

Any canon I've overlooked? I've got the feeling there likely is, but at
the moment, I'm luxuriating in my theory.

Eileen




From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 20:40:56 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:40:56 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA9@...>
Message-ID: <dphbso+d7ae@...>

Eileen: 
> 
> Any canon I've overlooked? I've got the feeling there likely is, 
but at
> the moment, I'm luxuriating in my theory.
> 
Kathy W:
I think there is canon that she was at Hogwarts, and she makes 
reference to her Head of House not choosing her for Prefect, yet 
never says who that Head of House was. Now, if Harry doesn't know 
Cormac who is in his House and only one year older, how likely is it 
he would know Tonks who is older, if she were in a different House? 
Heck, for that matter, she could have been in Gryffindor.

Do I remember though, that no new Aurors had been accepted in 4 years 
at the time Harry was talking to McGonagall? How will that work into 
the mix?


Kathy W, as good at maths as JKR is.







From exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 20:59:24 2006
From: exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:59:24 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA9@...>
Message-ID: <dphcvc+deu0@...>

Eileen wrote:

> If Andromeda is the youngest of the three sisters, as the family 
> tree combined with "Will and Won't" would indicate, that means 
> that if Andromeda married and had Tonks after finishing Hogwarts, 
> it'd be June 1972 that she'd leave school. 

Actually the family tree indicates that Andromeda is the middle 
sister.  Her name is centered between Bellatrix - on the left (our 
left looking at the tree) and Narcissa on the right.  Bellatrix - 
Andromeda - Narcissa.  1st - 2nd - 3rd.  That is how all family 
trees are constructed with the oldest on the far left, as we read 
left to right.

The Black sister's birth order does work out with the births of 
Tonks and Draco, too.  I don't have my notes with all the exact 
years on me, but it's along the lines of Bellatrix being the same 
age as Lucius Malfoy, Andromeda 3 years younger and Narcissa another 
two or three years after that, making Cissy the same age as the 
Marauders.  Andromeda and Cissy both had their kids young like Lily 
Potter, Merope Gaunt and quite possible Molly Weasley.  Young 
mothers seem to be a theme with Rowling.

Of course that doesn't help your theory that Snape was closely tied 
with Bellatrix if they were 6 years apart but it's not outside the 
realm of possibility.  

Mandy








From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:02:57 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:02:57 -0700
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64BC4@...>

Amanda:
> Of course that doesn't help your theory that Snape was closely tied
> with Bellatrix if they were 6 years apart but it's not outside the
> realm of possibility.

Except it sort of is. Given that Sirius identified them as closely tied
at school. My head is aching.

Eileen 




From exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:10:23 2006
From: exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:10:23 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <dphbso+d7ae@...>
Message-ID: <dphdjv+o11l@...>

> Do I remember though, that no new Aurors had been accepted in 4 
> years at the time Harry was talking to McGonagall? How will that 
> work into the mix?
> Kathy W, as good at maths as JKR is.


That's the onion.  It all hinges on McGonagall's comment.

Harry met Tonks when he was 15 in OotP she was described as a witch 
in her twenties.  If there were no new Aurors for 4 years previously 
as McGonagall pointed out and Tonks left school at 18 and went 
straight into Auror training - that would put Tonks at 22 at the 
youngest. Thus you have 7 years between a 15 year old Harry and a 22 
year old Tonks.  It's not conclusive by any means but I think that 
is how the seven years came about.

Make sense?

Mandy







From exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:17:17 2006
From: exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:17:17 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64BC4@...>
Message-ID: <dphe0t+d3rs@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Amanda:
> > Of course that doesn't help your theory that Snape was closely 
tied
> > with Bellatrix if they were 6 years apart but it's not outside 
the
> > realm of possibility.
> 
> Except it sort of is. Given that Sirius identified them as closely 
tied
> at school. My head is aching.
> 
> Eileen
>

I don't know!! ;-) Perhaps Snape was Bella's pet in school?

Can we trust anything that comes form Sirius though?  He spent 15 
years in Azkaban and in my experience men don't generally remember 
date details that specifically anyway. (No offence boys.)  Why would 
he remember how old he was when he last saw a cousin he despised?






From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:17:51 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:17:51 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BA9@...>
Message-ID: <dphe1v+1096q@...>

Here's the text:

"What d'you think, Sirius?"  Harry said loudly, and Ron and Hermione 
stopped bickering to listen.
"I think they've both got a point," said Sirius, looking 
thoughtfully at Ron and Hermione. "Ever since I found out Snape was 
teaching here, I've wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's 
always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at 
school.  Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was," Sirius added, and 
Harry and Ron grinned at each other.  "Snape knew more curses when 
he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was 
part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death 
Eaters."
Sirius held up his fingers and began ticking off names.
"Rosier and Wilkes - they were both killed by Aurors the year before 
Voldemort fell. The Lestranges - they're a married couple - they're 
in Azkaban. Avery - from what I've heard he wormed his way out of 
trouble by saying he'd been acting under the Imperius Curse - he's 
still at large.  But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused 
of being a Death Eater - not that that means much.  Plenty of them 
were never caught. And Snape's certainly clever and cunning enough 
to keep himself out of trouble."
 

Hmm, I wonder at how to interpret all this. Probably JKR just got 
her maths wrong!  

But maybe the "gang of Slytherins" was a long-term thing, which 
lasted longer than any one person was in it. Suppose it was around 
in the school throughout the seventies ? throughout the eleven years 
that Voldemort was making his bid for power in the world outside 
(and possibly even earlier ? who knows?) And as some people left the 
school, others had already joined to take their place. 

This means that Bellatrix could already have left the school (in 
1972), at eighteen ? and she then went on to join Voldemort. 
Andromeda left at exactly the same time, at seventeen (at the end of 
her sixth year) when she eloped with Ted Tonks - because according 
to the family tree "she" is the middle sister. Was one of the things 
that pushed Bellatrix down such a radical path, her horrified 
reaction towards her sister's betrayal? 

Now, Snape would have been cold-shouldered by the gang to start with 
(the time when he would have been friendly with Lily), though when 
he arrived, knowing so many curses, he may have hoped to have a 
chance with them, before they cold-shouldered him, and he became 
friends with Lily; but later, after Bellatrix had left the school, 
he'd have found that he had more of a chance with them, and (as a 
Slytherin, hated by the Gryffindors, and with no way of escape 
there) he was tempted to join the "inner ring", with a good deal 
more reason than Mark Studdock (in That Hideous Strength) ever did ? 
though in the long run it meant he couldn't stay friends with Lily. 
But he never made the final irreversible choice until he was 
compelled to react in as hostile way as he could towards Lily's 
attempt to take his part against MWPP. That was the fatal choice 
that coloured the rest of his life ? the real reason why it was his 
worst memory, though he may not have seen it at the time ? and no 
wonder he hates the people whom he regards (with some truth) as 
giving him the final push in that direction.

But is Sirius telling the truth about how Snape knew so many curses 
when he arrived? Possibly, but even if he is, he's being misleading: 
the Pensieve scene, and Lily's words to James, suggest that even if 
Snape knew these curses, he still wasn't using them. And yet the 
diary suggests that Snape was not merely gifted: he was brilliant ? 
and could think up unusual and very deadly hexes. And yet he didn't 
use them? Mind you, Sectumsempera is "too" deadly to use at school. 

BTW ? I do like the theory I read on the LJ hp_essays recently, 
arguing that Pettigrew was probably the exceptional Muggle-Born 
Death Eater which JKR hinted at. The idea is that this is a very 
compelling reason as to why "no one" suspected him of being a spy. 
Besides, he never pretends to have any loyalty to the "cause" (just 
loyalty to Voldemort) and it gives an added meaning to the way he 
can be referred to as "vermin" by the other Death Eaters!

I wonder whether this is partly why James (and Sirius perhaps?) 
expected Peter to be as servile as he was?







From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:20:46 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:20:46 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Pr
In-Reply-To: <dphbso+d7ae@...>
Message-ID: <dphe7e+icnn@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
>
> Eileen: 
> > 
> > Any canon I've overlooked? I've got the feeling there likely is, 
> but at
> > the moment, I'm luxuriating in my theory.
> > 
> Kathy W:
> I think there is canon that she was at Hogwarts, and she makes 
> reference to her Head of House not choosing her for Prefect, yet 
> never says who that Head of House was. Now, if Harry doesn't know 
> Cormac who is in his House and only one year older, how likely is it 
> he would know Tonks who is older, if she were in a different House? 
> Heck, for that matter, she could have been in Gryffindor.
> 
> Do I remember though, that no new Aurors had been accepted in 4 years 
> at the time Harry was talking to McGonagall? How will that work into 
> the mix?
> 
> 
> Kathy W, as good at maths as JKR is.
>

Anne:
I'm with Kathy -- Harry would never have noticed her.

McGonagall said "It's a difficult career path, Potter; they only take
the best.  In fact, I don't think anybody has been taken on in the
last three years."  Further on, she and Harry discuss aptitude tests
and then she says Auror training takes a *further* three years.  When
helping Harry pack to leave Privet Drive, Tonks told him she'd
qualified as an auror a year before, so I assume what McGonagall meant
was that, in the past three years, no one had passed the aptitude
tests to begin training.

Anyway, if Tonks is a year out of training on Harry's 15th birthday,
after three years of training, she's at least four years out of
Hogwarts (or wherever).  Since Harry has three years of Hogwarts to go
at that point, I'm afraid that does make her at least seven years
older than he is, depending when her birthday falls.  Let's say she's
22, then.

During OoP, we know Lucius Malfoy was 41 (it was quoted in a Daily
Prophet article), so he was born in 1954.

Snape was born in 1959 or 1960 (based on a chat question).  They would
indeed have had only a couple of years together in Hogwarts, then. 
For Sirius to include Bella in Snape's "gang" we don't want her to be
any older than Lucius, really.  So -- we need Andromeda to be no older
than 40 (and that's pushing it).  Unless, as Eileen pointed out, they
could be twins.

I think we're stuck with Andromeda fleeing the Black household right
after school, falling for this Tonks guy and having Nymphadora right
away.  "Nymphadora" is a name I could see an eighteen-year old giving
her daughter, anyway.

Anne








From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:32:06 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:32:06 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64BC4@...>
Message-ID: <dphesm+htf9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" <erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Amanda:
> > Of course that doesn't help your theory that Snape was closely tied
> > with Bellatrix if they were 6 years apart but it's not outside the
> > realm of possibility.
> 
> Except it sort of is. Given that Sirius identified them as closely tied
> at school. My head is aching.


Pippin:
Sirius didn't say closely tied, just part of a gang. If the gang was  Bella's,
it could have fallen apart after she left school, even if many of  the individual
members were still around. Snape was a weird little oddball, like Luna,
and probably even worse at making friends.


Since Andromeda married a Muggle, it's not beyond possibility that she
dropped out of Hogwarts when she got married  and finished her education 
in the Muggle world. Ted might not have had any idea of what she was
or her even her real age when he married her.

Pippin






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:34:14 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:34:14 -0700
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64BC6@...>

> Pippin: 
> Since Andromeda married a Muggle, 

No, Ted Tonks was a Muggleborn.

Eileen 





From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:43:03 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:43:03 -0700
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Pr
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BAA@...>

> > Kathy W, as good at maths as JKR is.

I'm quite as bad, as you're seeing. Which is why I use family trees
extensively for my fictional characters and refer to them often. I even
do them with the same genealogy software I use for my own real-life
family tree nowadays.

Fanfic is such a double whammy. This HP thing used to drive me nuts, and
now I'm dabbling in Narnia fanfic and C.S. Lewis is pretty much as bad
at math as JKR. Actually, maybe worse.

> 
> Anne:
> I'm with Kathy -- Harry would never have noticed her.

I wasn't wondering about Harry noticing Tonks. I was wondering why Tonks
doesn't already know *him*, after everyone at Hogwarts spent a good deal
of time staring at him at first. But as you point out latre, it does
seem she has to be seven years older to Harry.

> Snape was born in 1959 or 1960 (based on a chat question).  

I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't the fact to throw out. Like the
other infamous age given in a chat: the Weasley eldest two's ages, it
doesn't play very well with the rest of the text and it isn't primary
canon. 

Of course, it's the age we got first, so perhaps people would be less
inclined to let go of it.

Eileen




From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 21:55:48 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:55:48 -0700
Subject: Can we trust Sirius? WAS RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd]
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BAB@...>

Amanda:
> Can we trust anything that comes form Sirius though?  He spent 15
> years in Azkaban and in my experience men don't generally remember
> date details that specifically anyway. (No offence boys.)  Why would
> he remember how old he was when he last saw a cousin he despised?

You've hit on one of the *other* questions that plagues me. 

Sirius's account of recent history compared to the OotP canon. It makes
so little sense. 

I can accept that he's a bit vague on details, like the date you
mention. In fact, that was my initial reaction to that particular date.
But the narrative demands that we take the essence of what Sirius says
seriously, right? I mean, we can't just start deciding he's making up
his ever having a cousin named Andromeda, and is under the delusion
Tonks is his cousin's daughter, and that burn on the tapestry is
actually just an accident. 

But oh dear. The downfall of Barty Crouch.

The downfall of Barty Crouch which apparently took eight years to happen
after the incident that Sirius said immediately triggered it. 

I think Elkins threw her hands up at that point and said it made no
sense anymore. I've been more resilient. 

Eileen




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 22:16:03 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:16:03 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler Lupin
In-Reply-To: <dphe1v+1096q@...>
Message-ID: <dphhf3+bp6f@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Alec" <alec.dossetor at f...> wrote:
>
> But is Sirius telling the truth about how Snape knew so many curses 
> when he arrived? Possibly, but even if he is, he's being misleading: 
> the Pensieve scene, and Lily's words to James, suggest that even if 
> Snape knew these curses, he still wasn't using them. And yet the 
> diary suggests that Snape was not merely gifted: he was brilliant ? 
> and could think up unusual and very deadly hexes. And yet he didn't 
> use them? Mind you, Sectumsempera is "too" deadly to use at school. 
> 

Probably not.
I suspect that it's just hyperbole, Sirius thinking (and claiming) the
worst about someone he doesn't like.

After all, how many curses can you throw when you don't have a wand
to practice with (they don't get them until it's time for Hogwarts, is my
impression), when you're from a mixed marriage background (I'm sure
the Muggle parent would notice if their offspring was eviscerating the 
neighbourhood moggies) and when there's absolutely no evidence 
except Sirius's vague accusations. If he had been hanging around with
older DE fodder at Hoggers - as seems likely - it was probably they who
taught Snapey a few interesting bits of magic. 

Could be wrong though, such an age difference counts for a lot when
one's that sort of age, plus the fact that I'm not totally sold on the idea 
that Snape is actually a half-blood. Goes against the grain, somehow, 
having a halfer as Head of Slytherin. It all seems a bit iffy.

Coming from the Black household (which he didn't repudiate until he
was in his mid-late teens), it's quite possible that Sirius was himself
more familiar with Dark Magic than he cares to admit, which sort of
ties in with the reported enthusiasm with which J&S stalked the Hogwarts
corridors jinxing anyone that annoyed them. Can't remember the same 
being reported of Snape.
Interesting role reversal.

Kneasy






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 22:44:40 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:44:40 -0000
Subject: Can we trust Sirius? WAS RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd]
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BAB@...>
Message-ID: <dphj4o+anvt@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" <erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Amanda:
> > Can we trust anything that comes form Sirius though?  He spent 15
> > years in Azkaban and in my experience men don't generally remember
> > date details that specifically anyway. (No offence boys.)  Why would
> > he remember how old he was when he last saw a cousin he despised?
> 
> You've hit on one of the *other* questions that plagues me. 
> 
> Sirius's account of recent history compared to the OotP canon. It makes
> so little sense. 
> 
> I can accept that he's a bit vague on details, like the date you
> mention. 
snip

Vague?
He turns mendacity into an art-form.
I don't trust a word he says. Admittedly I'm probably in a minority of one,
but that's beside the point. 

There's a couple of analyses of Sirius that you may have missed (I get the
impression that you've been inactive/lurking for a while). I won't go into
detail, the other members are probably fed up with hearing my views on
the matter, but if you're interested try

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79808

and

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103685

the former concentrates on his escape(!) from Azkaban, the latter
on more general matters.
I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw Hagrid.

Kneasy







From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan  4 23:30:23 2006
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:30:23 +1100
Subject: Can we trust Sirius? WAS RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd]
In-Reply-To: <dphj4o+anvt@...>
References: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BAB@...> <dphj4o+anvt@...>
Message-ID: <20060104233023.GC12187@...>

On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 10:44:40PM -0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79808
> 
> and
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103685
> 
> the former concentrates on his escape(!) from Azkaban, the latter
> on more general matters.
> I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw Hagrid.
> 
> Kneasy

So where DO we throw Sirius? If he was that troublesome, and we assume DD is
really dead, who's going to tell us all in book seven? If Snape had any reason
to throw doubt on Sirius surely he would have taken the opportunity before
now. How credible would an account from Voldy and/or Wormtail be? Shock
revelations from Narcissa perhaps? Tonks spills the beans? Don't tell me Lupin
would be believable. Unless it services someone's agenda, the retrospective
rejigging of the Sirius legend is useless, and what agenda would be served by
it? Presumably we're trying to influence Harry and/or enlighten him on the
true backstory to his current quest; how would Blackening the Sirius name
alter his essential trajectory? If Snape declaims the truth, it's more to do
with Snape than Sirius; does it add essential credibility to characterization
or plot?

Call me suspicious but a dead Sirius means a lot of untidy authorship smoothed
away, and a soon-to-be-dead Lupin is the necessary corollary. In other words,
I don't really expect answers that already seem redundant.

-- 
Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.



From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 02:52:41 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:52:41 -0500
Subject: Who was who's Pet? WAS Tonks's age: A possible solution
References: <dphe0t+d3rs@...>
Message-ID: <025901c611a3$194101f0$6401a8c0@...>

>Amanda said:

>I don't know!! ;-) Perhaps Snape was Bella's pet in school?

Rebecca, chiming in:

Maybe not, but perhaps he was Cissy's paramour from afar.... is that 
possible in the age timeline? :)  Take how she knew where Snape lived - 
Bellatrix certainly didn't know if you take her comment about the general 
vacinity at face value:

"He lives here?" asked Bella in a voice of contempt. "Here? In this Muggle 
dunghill? We must be the first of our kind ever to set foot--""

If you carefully read the paragraphs after that statement in the 2nd 
chapter, one gets the sense that Narcissa taking shortcuts thru an alley and 
not ever getting lost in traversing what's described as almost identical 
streets getting to Snape's house is rather like taking the path from 
memory - it could lead one to believe you might have to be intimate with 
where he lives to find it. When has she been there and how often?  Why does 
JKR (other than to describe the general locale) have to specifically show us 
that Narcissa *knows the way?*  I won't even comment on the intimate 
familiarity these 2 appear to have with one another..to the point of 
Narcissa's grabbing of Snape's robes, kneeling at his feet, and pressing her 
lips to Snape's hand?

For the face time Narcissa had in HBP, one would think perhaps we'd know 
more about her.  As far as I know, we don't even know if she went to 
Hogwarts, nor do we know what House she was in.  Something more to 
ponder.... ;)

Rebecca










From olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 08:52:42 2006
From: olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid (Olivier Fouquet)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:52:42 +0100
Subject: Snape curses WAS Tonks' age
Message-ID: <81F5976F-147E-4FE0-BCA7-E207CEAB53B8@...>

Alec
 > But is Sirius telling the truth about how Snape knew so many curses
 > when he arrived? Possibly, but even if he is, he's being misleading:
 > the Pensieve scene, and Lily's words to James, suggest that even if
 > Snape knew these curses, he still wasn't using them. And yet the
 > diary suggests that Snape was not merely gifted: he was brilliant ?
 > and could think up unusual and very deadly hexes. And yet he didn't
 > use them? Mind you, Sectumsempera is "too" deadly to use at school.

Olivier
Didn't use them? I think he did but was surpassed by the incredible  
combined talents of James and Sirius anyway. My evidence. Well,  
OoP:"Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash  
of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering  
his robes with blood." Compare this with HBP "Blood spurted from  
Malfoy's face and chest as though he had been slashed with an  
invisible sword" and especially "But though gashes appeared in their  
sodden rags and their icy skin, they had no blood to spill". Same  
choice of word (gash), same symptoms (a nasty cut and heavy  
bleeding). On my first reading of HBP, I concluded right away that  
Snape had indeed tried his new curse against his enemies.

So I see no contradiction here: Snape was brilliant, but  
unfortunately for him, so were James and Sirius (many canon for  
this). And Snape indeed was very much into the dark arts: James'  
cowardly attack was shameful but Snape did reply with a curse he knew  
(contrary to Harry)  could seriously injure his opponent. I tend to  
see a self-reinforcing dynamic here. Snape was so frequently  
violently bullied for no reason at all that he immersed himself in  
his schoolbooks and spent his spare time inventing curses that would  
help him defend himself. Meanwhile, James and Sirius despised him  
more and more because of his apparent love for the dark arts.

On a related subject, I believe there is a way to reconcile the  
apparent contradiction between Bellatrix's age, Snape's isolation in  
OoP and Sirius assurance that Snape was "part of a gang of  
Slytherins". It could very simply be that Snape met them at  
Slughorn's frequent parties, though they had left Hogwarts already.  
Sirius would know about that of course (and so would probably James),  
because he was most certainly invited to the club ("he was a talented  
boy [?] I'd have liked the set" Slughorn dixit), being a rich, well- 
connected, extremely talented, pureblood. If Slug was holding two to  
three parties a year and if Bella was there each time, then Sirius  
would be as justified to say that Snape was part of her gang as Draco  
would be to say that Harry was "part of a gang of bloodtraitors like  
the Weasleys". And don't forget that Rabastan Lestrange could still  
be at Hogwarts at that time.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 09:20:10 2006
From: olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid (Olivier Fouquet)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:20:10 +0100
Subject: Andromeda's love story
Message-ID: <9DD1C2B1-E52B-4FB9-89B9-CA61A6F2BF18@...>

On the subject of chronology (and though I usually take an agnostic  
position on factual statement in HP, JKR contradicts herself? Very  
well then she contradicts herself, she is large, she contains  
multitudes), I think the story of Andromeda's early leaving from her  
family and immediate love story with this muggle-born is a very nice  
background. It plays perfectly well within the theme of the self- 
destructive Black family. Sirus ran away from home, "his favourite  
cousin" (Andomeda) thought he had the right idea and wedded Ted.  
Sirius went to live with James, Andromeda with her husband or maybe  
with her in-laws. Seems perfectly fitting with the personality of  
Tonks too, easy-going, impulsive, despises the name Nymphadora but  
still hopelessly romantic?

I found quite interesting, on the other hand, the general theme of  
motherhood in HP. Lily, Andromeda, Merope, Narcissa are canonically  
very young mothers. Mrs. Weasley seems to be, though this is not  
certain at all. Some general study of the importance of this could  
probably be done.

Olivier 



From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 11:04:29 2006
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:04:29 -0000
Subject: Give a dog a bad name
In-Reply-To: <dpgubn+362t@...>
Message-ID: <dpiuft+ojcs@...>

Kneasy:

> Nope, there's something distinctly gamey about these were-wolf names 
IMO.
> I may be wrong, but I ain't uncertain. 
> Us paranoids have to stand by our convictions.

No, the *gamey* flavour is provided by Sanguini.

David, about 150 posts behind






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 12:09:25 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:09:25 -0000
Subject: Can we trust Sirius? WAS RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd]
In-Reply-To: <20060104233023.GC12187@...>
Message-ID: <dpj29l+iufl@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewetoo at g...> wrote:
> 
> So where DO we throw Sirius? If he was that troublesome, and we assume DD is
> really dead, who's going to tell us all in book seven? 


DD memories cached in the Pensieve?
Snape pouring out revelations as he gasps his last, no doubt with a sardonic
smile hovering in the region of his yellowing dentures?
Or maybe it's already nesting in Harry's little grey cells, just needing the magic
phrase for realisation to flood his limited intellect?
Petunia? It's a good bet that she knows more than she's letting on.

> 
> Call me suspicious but a dead Sirius means a lot of untidy authorship smoothed
> away, and a soon-to-be-dead Lupin is the necessary corollary. In other words,
> I don't really expect answers that already seem redundant.
> 

Spreading it a bit wider than just Sirius:
A papering over of the cracks is the least satisfying resolution, but probably the
likeliest IMO. If one could imagine that the complete series had been published
in its entirety, most of what the fans spend hours happily dissecting, analysing
and hypothesising would hardly be a matter for more than a passing mention.
Certainly as the series has progressed it's possible to trace a curve tracking
the incidence of speculative ideas that were possible as opposed to probable
(given the canon extant at the time). Peaked around GoF, by my estimate.
And can it be coincidental that it was around then, or soon after, that herself
upped, indeed instituted a regular flow of clues, hints and revelations to moans
from avid theorists as they had to abandon their strangled offspring? 

To a certain extent most of the boards have been playing a glorified game of
Consequences, where layer upon layer of theory (call it wishful thinking if
you like) has built up, with little more than the reader's perceptions as the
foundation. A lot of fun, of course - and I for one intend to keep on doing
it, but I'm under no illusions about the probable accuracy of my musings. Nor
are most of the fans, that's what makes these 'clarifications' by Jo so 
disheartening. We already know that there's not a snowball's chance in hell
that 99% of our ideas will bear any relation to the eventual explication and
conclusion. 

So what? Does that matter? Hardly. Many *want* it to be more subtle, 
convoluted and for the apparent clues to have more plot significance than 
would be justified by an objective reading. But do they really expect it 
to turn out like that? In their dreams, maybe; not in the cold light of day.
However, there is this niggle. Jo seems so set on cutting back the luxuriant
growths that have sprouted in the hot-house of fan imagination that when
that final day dawns it might be a cold one indeed; that there could be a
killing frost of disappointment, that the ending may not live up to what
has gone before, let alone the fevered dreams of fandom.
Maybe that's just my in-built pessimism stirring. Hope it's wrong.

On the boards aspects of HP have escaped the confines of the writers control
- the fans have grabbed it, or bits of it, and run off into strange lands, 
alternative 'realities' where anything can happen and undoubtedly does. 
DIY HP.
Project your own preferences onto the author's template. SHIPpers,
conspiracy theorists, fluffies, gore-fest enthusiasts, even - God help us -
the anti-abuse crusaders on other sites, it's open season for all.
More power to their collective elbows, says I. It's an exercise in personal 
imagination, usually harmless, and improves typing skills. 
And it has no significance whatsoever. 
But my word, it's fun. 
There is/will be the cold print of canon and the fancies of fertile minds; two 
conflicting views - why not believe both? For the time being, anyway.

Kneasy






From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 14:21:45 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:21:45 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Pr
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BAA@...>
Message-ID: <dpja1p+ljao@...>


> 
>Anne: Snape was born in 1959 or 1960 (based on a chat question).  
> Eileen:
> I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't the fact to throw out. Like 
the
> other infamous age given in a chat: the Weasley eldest two's ages, 
it
> doesn't play very well with the rest of the text and it isn't 
primary
> canon. 
> 
> Of course, it's the age we got first, so perhaps people would be 
less
> inclined to let go of it.
> 
Kathy W:
I think we've narrowed it down to the most likely explanation: a 
mistake in math or at least, a mistake in birth order. I think the 
order of Andromeda, Bella, Cissy works better, sort of like naming 
storms.

Even if we toss out the Lexicon's dates, the narrative doesn't work 
out for Bella to be at school with Snape if her younger sister is 
Tonks's mother. We can come with all sorts of explanations, some of 
which would work if these were real people and certain facts were 
written in stone. But these are pencil and paper people and no two 
facts have to fit. (But of course, ought to.)

Having said that, there's this thought. Doesn't Sirius say that Snape 
came to school knowing more curses and he was part of a gang. That 
sounds like both things are current at first year. Just like Harry 
was part of a gang that included Oliver Wood.

If Severus was only part of Bella's gang his first year, that is, she 
was gone afterwards, then it might help explain Spinner's End better. 
Narcissa certainly knows him better than Bella does. 

There I go, trying to make things fit that don't.








From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 15:03:56 2006
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:03:56 +0100
Subject: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dpgu87+jii8@...>
References: <dpgu87+jii8@...>
Message-ID: <200601051603.56982.silmariel@...>


> Pippin:
> Lupin does not transform at night per se, he transforms during a period
> controlled by the full moon. He is absent from classes and a Quidditch
> game, both of which take place in daytime. Furthermore, as I've just
> pointed out on TOL, Fenrir can predict the time of his transformations
> closely enough to position himself near specific victims. The moon's
> appearance from behind a cloud in PoA has the distinct odor of a  scarlet 
> fishy.
>

In this particular case I can't consider the lack of reliable sources, furbys 
are wide known for a long period, and being (still) second grade citizens, I 
assume they have been studied, at least for practical/defense questions, that 
includes how they transform and when - definitely not the case of phoenix or 
those so rare three headed serpents. The texbook Snape used should be 
correct. Hermione doesn't catch anything wrong with the trasformation, but I 
don't know how good is she thinking on stressed moments, and Lupin gets sure 
that Snape is not awakened (I think Snape is the only character present that 
wouldn't disregard details because of the inmediate danger, and knows the 
subject by heart, instead of only by one direct case). 

> Silmariel:
> > Now on Pippin's idea that Lupin puppeteered all the Prank, I don't buy it
> > because it deprives me of the only reason I know for Lupin to betray his
> > friends in full fashion (give me another one as personal and canon as
> > that and I'll change my mind).
> >
> Pippin:
> Does your character sheet indicate that Lupin counted the times his
> friends let him court exposure in Hogsmeade as  the happiest  days in his
> life?  Lupin did not dread exposure, even the risk of killing,  as much as
> he dreaded the loss of those outings.
>

Yes, it has everything I know about him, included those 'close calls'. But 
still, I don't think in every drunken teenage driver as actually eager to 
kill someone. I see they don't evaluate risks -and they risk killing-, they 
think they are inmortal and 'everything will be fine, that won't happen to 
me'. 

I can understand why that mentality combined with hate can lead to the prank, 
but once the joke is on you, as it was on Lupin, it cracks. 

The premeditation included in Imperio is something on another scale, methinks, 
it brings a rotten figure - as instead of going out to drink and risking 
driving, you decide to kill in order to keep doing it.

I don't think it's needed to make a case for betrayal theme. May Lupin be a 
pre-programed bomb child? I don't see canon for it, mainly for all the space 
Rowling has devoted only to explain the whys of Voldemort-the-monster, she 
treats with care childs depicted as rotten and while it is fairly easy to 
bring the betrayal theme, at this point in the game it would be too out of 
thin air to fill Lupin as, not ESE in the sense of 'secretly aligned with 
Voldie' but as Evil Semper Evil. 

> But there would have been no risk of exposure in the prank if James had
> not interfered.
>
> If Snape fought  to the death he would tell no tales, if he was bitten, he
> would have the best of reasons to keep Lupin's secret. He would also be in
> no condition to spy on the Marauders while Lupin was transformed.
> There would be blood and signs of a struggle, but those were
> normal in the wake of Lupin's transformations, and a corpse is easy
> for a wizard to conceal -- just  transfigure it into a bone and bury
> it later. Snape would have disappeared like Montague, and only the
> Marauders the wiser.
>

Montague couldn't have dissapeared in other year that OoP -that wasn't a 
school year, was open warfare within the school- without being noticed and 
investigated. The problem with my argument is that half the years are not 
normal, in any way <g>

Do you really think that with DD as headmaster, Snape could have simply 
dissapeared? In an active war, maybe, but... that isn't hinted, imo. I know, 
I can be so naive.

> Most likely Sirius had to die because he knew too much. "Harry, take
> the prophecy and run!" or words to that effect. Sounds like Sirius
> knew what the prophecy was, knew where it could be found, and
> thought that Harry knew too. But only a Death Eater could have
> told Sirius that. Dumbledore and Snape knew that Harry didn't
> have a clue which prophecy Voldemort was after.
>

Yikes, when I thought my head couldn't ache more.

> Pippin
> who likes Kneasy's idea of noms de chien, but thinks that werewolves and
> textbook authors are cursed with prophetic names the better to
> remind us that this is a toy universe. Some things are only painted on.
>

About names... if french names are a bad sign, Lupin sings out loud as french, 
not only as wolfy.

The game of finding who is someone, is fun, but maybe Lupin is John Doe, just 
an offspring from the standard wizard, and, we know so little from his 
parents (the source being him doesn't add to credibility). This leads to the 
dangerous path of secret child, you know, if the specific name is important.

R&R Lestranges can be a possibility (mainly because the initials match, and 
that's the easiest way to start), Luna has also a moonish name and matches L, 
or he could be that 'muggle' cousin Molly didn't talk much of (by the time 
she said the commentary, that is)... it seems out of nowhere, but precisely 
PoA is dedicated to a Prewett.

Back to lurking, for a while - this night is Wizard Kings' night.

Silmariel left long ago the game of trying to make sense of past generations 
in the potterverse, after considering if Bill and Barty Jr could hang around 
at school times.




From Pookie1_uk at pookie1_uk.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 14:57:37 2006
From: Pookie1_uk at pookie1_uk.yahoo.invalid (S Culfeather)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:57:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Pr
In-Reply-To: <dpja1p+ljao@...>
Message-ID: <20060105145737.72316.qmail@...>



Kathy W:
I think we've narrowed it down to the most likely
explanation: a 
mistake in math or at least, a mistake in birth order.
I think the 
order of Andromeda, Bella, Cissy works better, sort of
like naming 
storms.

It's just occurred to me that of course, this birth
order would work if we assume that Andromeda was
written out of the inheritance from her marrying Ted
Tonks. 

Just a thought in passing....

Serena



From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 15:24:53 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:24:53 -0700
Subject: The Tapestry RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Pr
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BAE@...>

> Kathy W:
> I think we've narrowed it down to the most likely
> explanation: a
> mistake in math or at least, a mistake in birth order.
> I think the
> order of Andromeda, Bella, Cissy works better, sort of
> like naming
> storms.
> 
Serena:
> It's just occurred to me that of course, this birth
> order would work if we assume that Andromeda was
> written out of the inheritance from her marrying Ted
> Tonks.
> 
> Just a thought in passing....


Obviously it doesn't fit with the tapestry placings, but I'm quite ready
to write that off as a flint. Particularly since a visualization of said
tapestry is really quite impossible. It must move around and resolve
itself under the viewer's eye to what they're looking for, otherwise how
on earth can it fit all that info? It reminds me actually of the Shield
of Aeneas in the Aeneid, which apparently has the equivalent of a whole
graphic novel inscribed on its front. 

I'll have to reread exactly what Dumbledore sells about Bella to see if
there's weasel room left there.

Eileen






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 15:38:23 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:38:23 -0700
Subject: The Gang RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape curses WAS Tonks' age
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BAF@...>


Oliver:
> On a related subject, I believe there is a way to reconcile the
> apparent contradiction between Bellatrix's age, Snape's isolation in
> OoP and Sirius assurance that Snape was "part of a gang of
> Slytherins". It could very simply be that Snape met them at
> Slughorn's frequent parties, though they had left Hogwarts already.
 
*glomps Oliver* That's quite a good explanation. It's got some dramatic
oomph or bang unlike some of the more tenuous ideas. 

Eileen




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 16:52:09 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:52:09 -0000
Subject: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <200601051603.56982.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dpjirp+tuni@...>

Silmariel:
> In this particular case I can't consider the lack of reliable sources, furbys 
> are wide known for a long period, and being (still) second grade citizens, I 
> assume they have been studied, at least for practical/defense questions, that 
> includes how they transform and when - definitely not the case of phoenix or 
> those so rare three headed serpents. The texbook Snape used should be 
> correct. Hermione doesn't catch anything wrong with the trasformation, but I 
> don't know how good is she thinking on stressed moments, and Lupin gets sure 
> that Snape is not awakened (I think Snape is the only character present that 
> wouldn't disregard details because of the inmediate danger, and knows the 
> subject by heart, instead of only by one direct case). 

Pippin:
Hermione's in the habit of covering up for Lupin, plus she would have had
to have lost track of the time herself. She did that before  when she missed
the Charms class. So she might think he had made an innocent mistake,
as many listies do.  I wouldn't count on the textbook being accurate, though. 
Opportunities for studying werewolves must be rare, and  it's possible to 
come up with a great deal of nonsense when studying a subject in absentia, 
as we should know only too well. Politics plays a part also.  I wouldn't have 
guessed from Fantastic Beasts that there were folks like Fenrir around.  

> 
> > Silmariel:
> > > Now on Pippin's idea that Lupin puppeteered all the Prank, I don't buy it
> > > because it deprives me of the only reason I know for Lupin to betray his
> > > friends in full fashion (give me another one as personal and canon as
> > > that and I'll change my mind).
> > >
> > Pippin:
> > Does your character sheet indicate that Lupin counted the times his
> > friends let him court exposure in Hogsmeade as  the happiest  days in his
> > life?  Lupin did not dread exposure, even the risk of killing,  as much as
> > he dreaded the loss of those outings.
> >
Silmariel:
> Yes, it has everything I know about him, included those 'close calls'. But 
> still, I don't think in every drunken teenage driver as actually eager to 
> kill someone. I see they don't evaluate risks -and they risk killing-, they 
> think they are inmortal and 'everything will be fine, that won't happen to 
> me'. 

Pippin:
But does a kid keep up with the drunken joyriding after he's almost hit
someone and felt guilty about it? Realized they might've died? Lupin
speaks as though he understood much more than his friends that what
they were doing was wrong and dangerous, and a poor way to reward
Dumbledore's trust, but kept it up anyway. It would be like Harry  taking
to heart what Lupin said about honoring his parents' sacrifice, seeing
the truth in it, but  putting it out of his mind because Hogsmeade was 
so tempting. 

Silmariel:
> I don't think it's needed to make a case for betrayal theme. May Lupin be a 
> pre-programed bomb child? I don't see canon for it, mainly for all the space 
> Rowling has devoted only to explain the whys of Voldemort-the-monster, she 
> treats with care childs depicted as rotten and while it is fairly easy to 
> bring the betrayal theme, at this point in the game it would be too out of 
> thin air to fill Lupin as, not ESE in the sense of 'secretly aligned with 
> Voldie' but as Evil Semper Evil. 

Pippin:
But she has established Lupin as a pampered prince, in a way. Yes he has
a horrible disease. But it's kept secret. He's told people will hate him if
they learn the truth, but meanwhile those who know    are overkind to  
compensate. 

His parents try everything, Dumbledore finagles him into Hogwarts, a tree is
planted that is dangerous to other students, villagers are put in dread of
a harmless old house, his friends take up dangerous and forbidden magic
to comfort him.

Everyone covers up and make excuses for him. And then he finally runs 
up against the hard cold reality that there's a limit to what even 
Dumbledore's patronage can do. It's a kick in the teeth.

Silmariel:
> Montague couldn't have dissapeared in other year that OoP -that wasn't a 
> school year, was open warfare within the school- without being noticed and 
> investigated. The problem with my argument is that half the years are not 
> normal, in any way <g>
> 
> Do you really think that with DD as headmaster, Snape could have simply 
> dissapeared? In an active war, maybe, but... that isn't hinted, imo. I know, 
> I can be so naive.

Pippin:
They got away with the Marauder stuff, and I can't see that happening
in a normal school year either. But things weren't normal.
Those were the years of Voldemort's rise. Werewolf
sightings with no casualties probably wouldn't even make the Daily
Prophet. Dumbledore would have been much pre-occupied, away from 
the school just as he is in HBP. If Snape had disappeared, there'd have been 
an investigation, but the question isn't whether Lupin could have gotten 
away with it, but whether he would have thought he could. And he was 
getting away with so much already.

Pippin







From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 17:06:35 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:06:35 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Pr
In-Reply-To: <dpja1p+ljao@...>
Message-ID: <dpjjmr+rhku@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> >Anne: Snape was born in 1959 or 1960 (based on a chat question).
  
> > Eileen:
> > I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't the fact to throw out. Like 
> the
> > other infamous age given in a chat: the Weasley eldest two's ages, 
> it
> > doesn't play very well with the rest of the text and it isn't 
> primary
> > canon. 

> > 
> Kathy W:
> I think we've narrowed it down to the most likely explanation: a 
> mistake in math or at least, a mistake in birth order. I think the 
> order of Andromeda, Bella, Cissy works better, sort of like naming 
> storms.


Annemehr:
Having an idea, I looked up the chat in question; it's in the Red Nose
Day chat of March, 2001:

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2001/0301-bbc-rednose.htm

>>How old is Prof. Dumbledore and Prof. Snape?
>>JKR: Dumbledore's about 150 years old... Wizards have a longer life
>>expectancy than us Muggles. Snape's 35 or 36

Going along with the maths/chat concerns, suppose in typing that
answer, JKR really is remembering the age she made Snape to be while
she was planning the *first book.*  I mean, does anyone really think,
with every book she writes, she carefully puts into her mind the new
ages of her adult characters?  Maybe, on the fly, she added a few
years to Snape's PS/SS age before typing, and maybe not.  Since the
chat was less than a year after GoF, if she actually gave a PS/SS age
for Snape there, it would make him more like 38 or 39 in GoF.  He'd be
only about a year behind Lucius if that's the case.

I believe that chat answer was the basis for the Lexicon setting the
ages for the Marauders, as well.

Annemehr

Er, my math is okay here, I hope...







From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 17:06:09 2006
From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:06:09 -0500
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B9F@...>
References: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25B9F@...>
Message-ID: <80f25c3a0601050906m73f5cec1na1eb69bd2d5d340d@...>

Coming in a bit late --

Eileen wrote:
Lupin has no place in the books anymore. As good guy, bad guy, you name it.
His time is over. His appearances lately have been the work of a
soft-hearted writer who wants to keep a favourite around but has nothing to
do for him, except, stricken with hurt-comfort, give him a nice wife to
soothe his werewolf brow.

Debbie:
Yes!  Yes!

And what about Moody?  Despite JKR's assertion that he was "cooler" than
Crouch!Moody, what has he ever done?  Showed Harry a photograph.  Told him
to keep his buttocks on.  Showed up at the Shootout At The Ministry.  He was
*much* more fun as a plot device.

And while we're at it, we might as well rename the Order of the Phoenix the
Order of the Plot-Device.  Face it, the Order is a dull place where JKR
stockpiles warm bodies whose plot value has been exhausted, along with the
other cardboard figures she needs to serve as guards, warriors, Voldemort's
victims, etc.  Oh, and every once in a while she borrows another cardboard
cutout when she needs another faceless plot device.  Sturgis Podmore,
anyone?

Debbie
who was secretly relieved when Sirius was killed off as soon as his
plot-device value was exhausted, as she trusted Sirius even less than Kneasy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 17:12:18 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:12:18 -0700
Subject: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64BF9@...>

All I'll say Anne is I love you. 

> Annemehr:
> Having an idea, I looked up the chat in question; it's in the Red Nose
> Day chat of March, 2001:
> 
> http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2001/0301-bbc-rednose.htm
> 
> >>How old is Prof. Dumbledore and Prof. Snape?
> >>JKR: Dumbledore's about 150 years old... Wizards have a longer life
> >>expectancy than us Muggles. Snape's 35 or 36
> 
> Going along with the maths/chat concerns, suppose in typing that
> answer, JKR really is remembering the age she made Snape to be while
> she was planning the *first book.*  I mean, does anyone really think,
> with every book she writes, she carefully puts into her mind the new
> ages of her adult characters?  Maybe, on the fly, she added a few
> years to Snape's PS/SS age before typing, and maybe not.  Since the
> chat was less than a year after GoF, if she actually gave a PS/SS age
> for Snape there, it would make him more like 38 or 39 in GoF.  He'd be
> only about a year behind Lucius if that's the case.
> 
> I believe that chat answer was the basis for the Lexicon setting the
> ages for the Marauders, as well.
> 
> Annemehr
> 
> Er, my math is okay here, I hope...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 17:14:39 2006
From: vderark at hp_lexicon.yahoo.invalid (hp_lexicon)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:14:39 -0000
Subject: Tonks's age: A possible solution RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape the Half-Blood Pr
In-Reply-To: <dpjjmr+rhku@...>
Message-ID: <dpjk5v+1140j@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
>

> 
> I believe that chat answer was the basis for the Lexicon setting 
the
> ages for the Marauders, as well.

Originally that was the case, but there are several other references 
that have backed up this age. Jo said in another interview that 
Sirius was about 22 when he went to Azkaban, which tallies with her 
previous comment about Snape's age. Also, Harry sees the events 
of "Snape's Worst Memory" and refers to them as happening 
about "twenty years ago," which would suggest something between 20 
and 25 years, which also verifies the age of Snape and therefore the 
Marauders. So the ages of the Marauders is pretty much certain.

With the huge caveat that any ages/dates coming from Jo are 
suspect ;)

Steve
The Lexicon






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 17:22:54 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:22:54 -0700
Subject: Textbook reliablility? RE: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd]
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB0@...>

> Silmariel:
> > In this particular case I can't consider the lack of reliable
sources,
> furbys
> > are wide known for a long period, and being (still) second grade
> citizens, I
> > assume they have been studied, at least for practical/defense
questions,
> that
> > includes how they transform and when - definitely not the case of
> phoenix or
> > those so rare three headed serpents. 

 Pippin:
>I wouldn't count on the textbook being accurate,
> though.
> Opportunities for studying werewolves must be rare, and  it's possible
to
> come up with a great deal of nonsense when studying a subject in
absentia,
> as we should know only too well. Politics plays a part also.  I
wouldn't
> have
> guessed from Fantastic Beasts that there were folks like Fenrir
around.

I agree with Pippin and think this can be taken a bit further,
considering the psychology of the wizarding world. 

Is anyone here familiar with the story of Aristotle and women's teeth?
Despite being married thrice, Aristotle never seems to have thought of
asking his wife to open her mouth so he could count her teeth. Instead,
he wrote down the number of teeth women had according to the information
that had been handed down to him, and others copied him. This went on
for a hundreds of years. It's an extreme example of a larger phenomenon.


It is very difficult in our experimental minded world to understand the
psyche of the world in which science doesn't mean observation and
testing. Where the value of an idea isn't the proofs you can put forward
but the sources you can quote. Where originality and innovation are bad
things. 

Where you may not actually go hunt down the real facts about werewolves,
but instead partially rely on the old stories. Scamander is probably
better than most in this regard, but there's still room for problems.

Certainly Snape has this problem with the Potions textbook, judging by
his notes in the HBP textbook.

Eileen




From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 17:31:36 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:31:36 -0000
Subject: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64BF9@...>
Message-ID: <dpjl5o+fbj0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock"
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> All I'll say Anne is I love you. 

Thanks -- you can bind my wounds then, because as you see, Steve has
shot me down!

UNLESS -- *puts on Gilbert Gottfried voice* -- JKR uses the Lexicon
ALL the TIME, right? Right? So at some point later on, she used
Snape's too-young age from the chat, which she found in the Lexicon,
to determine what Sirius's age would have been when she sent him to
Azkaban! Yes! The whole thing is a circular chain of cause and effect!  

Either that, or she subtracted wrong!

Anne
flushed with success and with bouncing on her chair  :P







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 19:25:46 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:25:46 -0000
Subject: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
In-Reply-To: <dpjl5o+fbj0@...>
Message-ID: <dpjrrq+sut7@...>


Anne:
> Thanks -- you can bind my wounds then, because as you see, Steve has
> shot me down!
> 
> UNLESS -- *puts on Gilbert Gottfried voice* -- JKR uses the Lexicon
> ALL the TIME, right? Right? So at some point later on, she used
> Snape's too-young age from the chat, which she found in the Lexicon,
> to determine what Sirius's age would have been when she sent him to
> Azkaban! Yes! The whole thing is a circular chain of cause and effect!  
> 

Pippin:
I dunno. It seems clear to me that JKR wants Snape to be considerably
younger than Lucius (hence the lapdog comment) and she wants Sirius
to be a very young man when he's sent to Azkaban. But probably JKR
isn't too concerned with whether her characters knew each other at
Hogwarts, but only with whether they're of an age to have personal
memories of Lily and James or not. 

Sorry about the Ted Tonks muggle confusion. I don't have OOP 
here, and I was remembering a theory that the newscaster Ted in
PS/SS was Nymphadora's father. My bad.

I can see Lucius, who always wants the best for himself, delaying 
marriage while the lovely and promising Black sisters  grow up.
Bella would be a bit much for him, and anyway she seems to have
set her sights on Lestrange. But what if  Andromeda married in 
haste to avoid being given to him?

Pippin






From heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 19:54:16 2006
From: heidi8 at heiditandy.yahoo.invalid (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:54:16 -0800
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
In-Reply-To: <dpjrrq+sut7@...>
References: <dpjrrq+sut7@...>
Message-ID: <1136490861.23F5D834@...>


On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 2:45 pm, pippin_999 wrote:

> I can see Lucius, who always wants the best for himself, delaying
> marriage while the lovely and promising Black sisters  grow up.
> Bella would be a bit much for him, and anyway she seems to have
> set her sights on Lestrange. But what if  Andromeda married in
> haste to avoid being given to him?
>
And my take on this is actually somewhat the opposite. Since OotP, I've 
thought that Sirius was to marry Narcissa, and when he fled the family*, 
that smart-but-not-wealthy pureblood Lucius Malfoy got lucky enough to 
marry into the wealthy Black family as he was the Most Promising 
Option.

Lucius seems to me a bit of a parvenu, and it would explain his rivalry 
with Arthur in a way that just doesn't make sense if they're in fully 
different socioeconomic zones, especially if Arthur is more than a year 
or so older than Lucius.

Also, it might explain his interest in becoming a Death Eater - a way to 
have some power and standing on his own, rather than through his wife's 
family. And yes, I've factored in the mention of the Wiltshire house - 
it might've been a wedding present from Narcissa's family, to set her up 
in the style to which she's accustomed.

Heidi


* no, not necessarily because of his half-blood werewolf boyfriend, but 
the theory certainly doesn't *bar* half-blood werewolf boyfriends



From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 20:09:08 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:09:08 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB5@...>

Heidi:
> And my take on this is actually somewhat the opposite. Since OotP,
I've
> thought that Sirius was to marry Narcissa, and when he fled the
family*,
> that smart-but-not-wealthy pureblood Lucius Malfoy got lucky enough to
> marry into the wealthy Black family as he was the Most Promising
> Option.

That's a theory I can get on board with. A lot of people seem to have
dropped Sirius/Narcissa since OotP when it was so popular beforehand,
but I signed on to that ship with OotP. I think the family connection
only makes the ship more likely.

> And yes, I've factored in the mention of the Wiltshire house -
> it might've been a wedding present from Narcissa's family, to set her
up
> in the style to which she's accustomed.


One theory I've seen floated around so much I can't recall who came up
with it is that Bella is actually the owner of the Wiltshire manor
originally, and Narcissa got it after Bellatrix was sent to Azkaban. I
like this theory because it fits with my longstanding feeling that it
was Lucius who tipped Crouch off about the identity of the Longbottoms'
torturers to save his own neck. And also to get the manor. 

Eileen




From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 20:15:50 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:15:50 -0000
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0601050906m73f5cec1na1eb69bd2d5d340d@...>
Message-ID: <dpjupm+pr3f@...>

- 
> Debbie
> who was secretly relieved when Sirius was killed off as soon as his
> plot-device value was exhausted, as she trusted Sirius even less than 
Kneasy


Kathy W:
I understand why you don't trust Sirius. I don't either. But why don't 
you trust Kneasy?






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 20:19:22 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:19:22 -0700
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64C14@...>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of potioncat
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:16 PM
> To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All
things
> Snape
> 
> -
> > Debbie
> > who was secretly relieved when Sirius was killed off as soon as his
> > plot-device value was exhausted, as she trusted Sirius even less
than
> Kneasy
> 
> 
> Kathy W:
> I understand why you don't trust Sirius. I don't either. But why don't
> you trust Kneasy?

I think Debbie means she trusts Sirius less than Kneasy trusts Sirius.
The beauties of English grammatical ambiguity. You'd never have that
sort of a problem in Latin. 

Eileen




From Pookie1_uk at pookie1_uk.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 20:24:40 2006
From: Pookie1_uk at pookie1_uk.yahoo.invalid (S Culfeather)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:24:40 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64C14@...>
Message-ID: <20060105202440.45364.qmail@...>


 Debbie:
 who was secretly relieved when Sirius was killed off
as soon as his plot-device value was exhausted, as she
trusted Sirius even less than Kneasy

Eileen:
I think Debbie means she trusts Sirius less than
Kneasy trusts Sirius.
The beauties of English grammatical ambiguity. You'd
never have that
sort of a problem in Latin. 



But Debbie's way round is far more fun!!!

Serena

      

      



From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 20:30:53 2006
From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:30:53 -0500
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dpjupm+pr3f@...>
References: <80f25c3a0601050906m73f5cec1na1eb69bd2d5d340d@...>
	 <dpjupm+pr3f@...>
Message-ID: <80f25c3a0601051230r3fa2108bu2bc3b7e30518d13c@...>

 Debbie
> who was secretly relieved when Sirius was killed off as soon as his
> plot-device value was exhausted, as she trusted Sirius even less than
Kneasy

Kathy W:
I understand why you don't trust Sirius. I don't either. But why don't
you trust Kneasy?

Debbie:
Whoops!  My mistake -- I momentarily confused Kneasy with Madam Whiplash.
;-]

Debbie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 20:39:23 2006
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:39:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0601051230r3fa2108bu2bc3b7e30518d13c@...>
Message-ID: <20060105203923.10613.qmail@...>

> > Debbie
> > who was secretly relieved when Sirius was killed
off as soon 
> > as  his plot-device value was exhausted, as she
trusted 
> > Sirius even less than Kneasy

SSSusan:
Really.  I did not know this about you, Debbie. ;-) 
Pray, do tell why!  I mean, you know, Kneasy doesn't
trust *anybody* -- it's his suspicious nature (right,
Kneasy?), but I'm curious why you and Kathy don't
(whoops, didn't) trust Sirius.


Kathy W:
> > I understand why you don't trust Sirius. I don't
either. But 
> > why don't you trust Kneasy?

Debbie:
> Whoops!  My mistake -- I momentarily confused Kneasy
with Madam 
> Whiplash.
> ;-]

SSSusan:
Hee.

Siriusly Snapey Susan, having a tough time keeping up
with the traffic at TOC the last few days




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 20:47:08 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:47:08 -0000
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0601051230r3fa2108bu2bc3b7e30518d13c@...>
Message-ID: <dpk0kc+iek8@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb <elfundeb at g...> wrote:
>
>  Debbie
> > who was secretly relieved when Sirius was killed off as soon as his
> > plot-device value was exhausted, as she trusted Sirius even less than
> Kneasy
> 
> Kathy W:
> I understand why you don't trust Sirius. I don't either. But why don't
> you trust Kneasy?
> 
> Debbie:
> Whoops!  My mistake -- I momentarily confused Kneasy with Madam Whiplash.
> ;-]
> 

Now this is an unjustified calumny.
Madam Whiplash is eminently trustworthy. Well, she is once you make allowances 
and take into consideration her lust for power, money, influence, sex - you 
know, the usual stuff.
Kneasy I'm not so sure about.  







From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 21:11:43 2006
From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (elfundeb)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:11:43 -0500
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
In-Reply-To: <dpk0kc+iek8@...>
References: <80f25c3a0601051230r3fa2108bu2bc3b7e30518d13c@...>
	 <dpk0kc+iek8@...>
Message-ID: <80f25c3a0601051311y7df90d6bn6f6fc386cfad5677@...>

 Kneasy:
Now this is an unjustified calumny.
Madam Whiplash is eminently trustworthy. Well, she is once you make
allowances
and take into consideration her lust for power, money, influence, sex - you
know, the usual stuff.
Kneasy I'm not so sure about.


Debbie:
I rest my case.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 21:57:13 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:57:13 -0000
Subject: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB5@...>
Message-ID: <dpk4np+3lg5@...>


> 
> One theory I've seen floated around so much I can't recall who came 
up
> with it is that Bella is actually the owner of the Wiltshire manor
> originally, and Narcissa got it after Bellatrix was sent to Azkaban. 
I
> like this theory because it fits with my longstanding feeling that it
> was Lucius who tipped Crouch off about the identity of the 
Longbottoms'
> torturers to save his own neck. And also to get the manor. 
> 
> Eileen

I've long suspected that Lucius may have got the manor through 
Narcissa, but this theory (with Lucius living up to the family name) 
does have a real beauty to it! 

Maybe the the two surviving branches of the Black family each had one 
of the family homes: Sirius' parents had the London house, and 
Narcissa's parents the country house - suggesting that Sirius' dad was 
the younger of the two brothers. After all, the family is considerably 
older than any London terraced house. 

If this is true, then Bellatrix "ought" to have inherited her parents' 
home - unless (as you say) she was disinherited. (I used to believe 
that Narcissa was the eldest sister, until Dumbledore quashed that 
theory!) Actually, it would make better sense if the last of the 
sisters' parents died "after" Bellatrix was sent to Azkaban, and so 
left the house to Narcissa, as the only child who had not disgraced 
them in any way: after all, in chapter two, Bellatrix doesn't seem to 
treat Narcissa as someone who's "directly" stolen her house! 









From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 21:57:17 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:57:17 -0700
Subject: Page-filler Lupin RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: bugger and All things Snape
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB7@...>

> Debbie:
>And what about Moody?  Despite JKR's assertion that he was "cooler"
than
> Crouch!Moody, what has he ever done?  Showed Harry a photograph.  Told
him
> to keep his buttocks on.  Showed up at the Shootout At The Ministry.
He
> was
> *much* more fun as a plot device.

Real!Moody was interesting when he was a flashback, talking about Evan
Rosier taking his nose off and leading the "Torture Karkaroff!" brigade.
He really should have quit while he was ahead. 

> And while we're at it, we might as well rename the Order of the
Phoenix
> the
> Order of the Plot-Device.  Face it, the Order is a dull place where
JKR
> stockpiles warm bodies whose plot value has been exhausted, along with
the
> other cardboard figures she needs to serve as guards, warriors,
> Voldemort's
> victims, etc.  

Not to mention, house cleaning staff! 

The only redeeming point of the set-up imho was that Snape's opinion of
the Order seemed about on par with mine. What he said to Sirius may have
been awful, but it was spot on. 

Eileen




From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 22:16:26 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:16:26 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB8@...>

Alec:
> I've long suspected that Lucius may have got the manor through
> Narcissa, but this theory (with Lucius living up to the family name)
> does have a real beauty to it!	

I wonder if Voldemort suspects Lucius. It could have something to do
with his displeasure.  

> Maybe the the two surviving branches of the Black family each had one
> of the family homes: Sirius' parents had the London house, and
> Narcissa's parents the country house - suggesting that Sirius' dad was
> the younger of the two brothers. After all, the family is considerably
> older than any London terraced house.

I've wondered if the split in the family was actually a generation back
so that Sirius's father and Bella's were first cousins. But Sirius's
mother was also the sister of Bella's father. A first cousin marriage
isn't so odd in this context whatever the fandom thinks. The reason I
wonder this is because Mrs. Black refers to Grimmauld Place as "the
house of my fathers", making me think she's no only related to her
husband, but closely related. And secondly, I think she's portrayed as
very like the older edition of Bellatrix, which would make sense if they
were aunt and niece by blood.

> Actually, it would make better sense if the last of the
> sisters' parents died "after" Bellatrix was sent to Azkaban, and so
> left the house to Narcissa, as the only child who had not disgraced
> them in any way: after all, in chapter two, Bellatrix doesn't seem to
> treat Narcissa as someone who's "directly" stolen her house!

True enough.

Eileen




From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 22:36:24 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:36:24 -0000
Subject: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB8@...>
Message-ID: <dpk718+32kd@...>


> I've wondered if the split in the family was actually a generation 
back
> so that Sirius's father and Bella's were first cousins. But Sirius's
> mother was also the sister of Bella's father. A first cousin marriage
> isn't so odd in this context whatever the fandom thinks. The reason I
> wonder this is because Mrs. Black refers to Grimmauld Place as "the
> house of my fathers", making me think she's no only related to her
> husband, but closely related. And secondly, I think she's portrayed 
as
> very like the older edition of Bellatrix, which would make sense if 
they
> were aunt and niece by blood.

Yes, she was clearly born a Black, and I'd wondered if the house in 
Grimmauld Place was "her's" by inheritance.

After all, Kreacher's primary loyalty was to "her", and not to her 
husband.








From alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 22:52:43 2006
From: alec.dossetor at lacedaemonios.yahoo.invalid (Alec)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:52:43 -0000
Subject: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
In-Reply-To: <dpk718+32kd@...>
Message-ID: <dpk7vr+3svt@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Alec" <alec.dossetor at f...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> > I've wondered if the split in the family was actually a 
generation 
> back
> > so that Sirius's father and Bella's were first cousins. But 
Sirius's
> > mother was also the sister of Bella's father. A first cousin 
marriage
> > isn't so odd in this context whatever the fandom thinks. The 
reason I
> > wonder this is because Mrs. Black refers to Grimmauld Place 
as "the
> > house of my fathers", making me think she's no only related to 
her
> > husband, but closely related. And secondly, I think she's 
portrayed 
> as
> > very like the older edition of Bellatrix, which would make sense 
if 
> they
> > were aunt and niece by blood.
> 
> Yes, she was clearly born a Black, and I'd wondered if the house 
in 
> Grimmauld Place was "her's" by inheritance.
> 
> After all, Kreacher's primary loyalty was to "her", and not to her 
> husband.
>


Ach no, I'm probably wrong there, if Dumbledore isn't misinformed - 
which is hardly likely in this context! It seems that if the house 
traditionally passes through the direct male line, it probably can't 
have belonged to Sirius' mother directly. On the other hand, 
it "must" have been hers at some point, at least after her husband 
died. Or did she predecease him? 

I think he implies that the house would only pass to a woman when 
all the male Blacks were dead - and then probably to the eldest 
living female member of the family: he can't be sure, as that's 
presumably never happened yet.

I suppose this means that the Malfoy home can't have been 
Narcissa's? Pity! But maybe it's just "this" house that passed in 
the direct male line, and the manor did not - maybe it had passed 
into the family's ownership more recently, by a marriage with yet 
another now-deceased pureblood family?

Anyway, here's what Dumbledore says:

"Black family tradition decreed that the house was handed down the 
direct line, to the next male with the name of 'Black.' Sirius was 
the very last of the line as his younger brother, Regulus, 
predeceased him and both were childless. While his will makes it 
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house, it is 
nevertheless possible that some spell or enchantment has been set 
upon the place to ensure that it cannot be owned by anyone other 
than a pureblood."

A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of Sirius's mother 
that hung in the hall of number twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into 
Harry's mind. "I bet there has," he said. 

"Quite," said Dumbledore. "And if such an enchantment exists, then 
the ownership of the house is most likely to pass to the eldest of 
Sirius's living relatives, which would mean his cousin, Bellatrix 
Lestrange."







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 22:58:25 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:58:25 -0000
Subject: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
In-Reply-To: <1136490861.23F5D834@...>
Message-ID: <dpk8ah+c3n0@...>

Heidi:
> >
> And my take on this is actually somewhat the opposite. Since OotP, I've 
> thought that Sirius was to marry Narcissa, and when he fled the family*, 
> that smart-but-not-wealthy pureblood Lucius Malfoy got lucky enough to 
> marry into the wealthy Black family as he was the Most Promising 
> Option.
> 
> Lucius seems to me a bit of a parvenu, and it would explain his rivalry 
> with Arthur in a way that just doesn't make sense if they're in fully 
> different socioeconomic zones, especially if Arthur is more than a year 
> or so older than Lucius.
> 
> Also, it might explain his interest in becoming a Death Eater - a way to 
> have some power and standing on his own, rather than through his wife's 
> family. And yes, I've factored in the mention of the Wiltshire house - 
> it might've been a wedding present from Narcissa's family, to set her up 
> in the style to which she's accustomed.

> * no, not necessarily because of his half-blood werewolf boyfriend, but 
> the theory certainly doesn't *bar* half-blood werewolf boyfriends

Pippin:
Hmmm...So Lucius is a parvenu, blood-wise, his line not going back much 
farther than  grampa whatsis, despite what Draco thinks? I like it. That
explains the Malfoy jealousy of the Weasleys. So, thanks to his connection with
Snape, Lucius was able to  blackmail his way into marriage with a Black sister. It's
one thing to have a close male friendship, but with a mutant? Oh dear,
oh dear. Wouldn't want that to get out, would we.

Pippin






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan  5 23:17:15 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:17:15 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB9@...>

> Pippin:
> Hmmm...So Lucius is a parvenu, blood-wise, his line not going back
much
> farther than  grampa whatsis, despite what Draco thinks? I like it.
That
> explains the Malfoy jealousy of the Weasleys. 

Lucius's geneology in my mind has always had extensive bits he or
another Malfoy made up to fill the gaps. I mean, no doubt he is as
pureblooded as most purebloods, but how pureblooded is that? Not quite
as pureblooded as the Blacks, imo. 

The fact is that I think many fans have way too high an opinion of the
elite nature of the Death Eaters, envisioning them all as powerful and
wealthy witches and wizards of the purest ancestry, the finest manners,
and the most exquisite looks. If this were anything near the truth,
they'd be running things, not running about with masks following a
megalomaniac.

The powerful purebloods are the characters with surnames like Crouch,
Fudge, Scrimgeour, Longbottom, Bones, Smith, and Potter! After all, it
is their lot running things. One wonders if they're resented by their
fellow purebloods more on a practical basis for using Muggleborns to
cement their own power than the ideological one. 

Eileen




From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan  6 11:55:13 2006
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:55:13 +0100
Subject: Textbook reliablility? RE: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd]
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB0@...>
References: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BB0@...>
Message-ID: <200601061255.13212.silmariel@...>


> > Silmariel:
> > > In this particular case I can't consider the lack of reliable
> sources, furbys are wide known for a long period, and being (still) second 
grade citizens, I assume they have been studied, at least for 
practical/defense questions, that includes how they transform and when - 
definitely not the case of phoenix or
> > > those so rare three headed serpents.
>

>  Pippin:
> >I wouldn't count on the textbook being accurate,
> > though. Opportunities for studying werewolves must be rare, and  it's 
possible to come up with a great deal of nonsense when studying a subject in
> absentia, as we should know only too well. Politics plays a part also.  I
>> wouldn't have guessed from Fantastic Beasts that there were folks like 
Fenrir around.
>

I don't like furbys, that's a fact. I thought the extremist part could near 
Fenris, but only in pass, I didn't even knew if they breeded or they bite. I 
saw Scamander using a light tone not to give a too bad impression, but the 
history underneath is usually bloody and violent.

Now that I know it is by bite, I have to ask myself how they reproduce, if it 
was only by accident, I think the population curve would tend to 0, so I 
assume every generation has had its share of Greybacks.

I also think if vampires are studied in DADA it's for something, howhever 
'beings' they are as a whole, but vampires have something to offer that wws 
don't: a kind of inmortality, so I see that some wizards can be seduced into 
being one (instead of 'accidented' or forced).

Eileen:
> I agree with Pippin and think this can be taken a bit further,
> considering the psychology of the wizarding world.

> Where you may not actually go hunt down the real facts about werewolves,
> but instead partially rely on the old stories. Scamander is probably
> better than most in this regard, but there's still room for problems.

But the point is, JKR sees it that way, or wizards have been experimenting and 
developing charms and potions for the last centuries?

Very extreme, that other example, I'll keep with Scamander. I'm not very 
interested in a realistic background for the evolution of the WW, but then, I 
have to ask: Any type of knowledge in every part of the world was treated 
that way, or cultures/societys made a difference? Wizards strike me as very 
international very early (they unite against muggles, half breeds and other 
species, but I haven't seen religious/terrytorial/etnic wars between them to 
create compartimentalized knowledge), with an international council in 1750.

> Certainly Snape has this problem with the Potions textbook, judging by
> his notes in the HBP textbook.
>

But potions is a complete field, evolving, do wws change so much in every 
generation, are they a field on his own instead a DADA theme?

My starting point is that wizards presume to be quite good in managing methods 
of violence and auto defense (and exterminating/subjugating anyone opposing, 
in the process). They went into hiding and have managed it via a battery of 
spells. 

Werewolfs are not studied in the name of knowledge, it's war, and while you 
can conclude they don't care about muggle world and how it goes, they have 
clear the basic facts: they don't have magic, they are obliviated this way, 
confunded that way, susceptible to this and that. I think the rules for 
wolfies are the same: they may ignore everything about them but the basics. 
We are talking of the alphabet, not scholar's knowledge.

I think the basic facts of a werewolf are when he transforms (ie, when is 
dangerous) and how to kill them, and once you get an experimental item, it's 
like (usual) vampirism, use slaves or prisoners (or muggles, if they 
transform) to reproduce that item at will, you only need one, you don't have 
to get the animal to reproduce as with a fantastic beast, it is very easy to 
have instant copies, so where you may think is rare, I think you only need to 
be lucky once (Felix Felicis). If you are out of luck actually hunting the 
werewolf, you can localice the nearings of one and set some towns to be 
predated, a recently converted child should be pretty weak and manageable. 

Umbridge worked for the Ministery, I move her some centuries in the past and 
she can do it, for the sake of the greater good, obviously, what is some 
dozens of civils killed in order to know how to effectively combat those 
beasts during the centuries?

Silmariel



From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan  6 18:02:00 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:02:00 -0700
Subject: Textbook reliablility? RE: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd]
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BBD@...>

Silmariel:
> I
> saw Scamander using a light tone not to give a too bad impression, but the
> history underneath is usually bloody and violent.

Just to complicate things further, I must add that our 'Fantastic Beasts' must be a very condensed version of the textbook actually referred to in the books, which apparently has full chapters and is not read in half an hour. So how the students are taught about the whole werewolf issue and whether Scamander gave more context than the pr?cis we've read is not clear at all. 

> Now that I know it is by bite, I have to ask myself how they reproduce, if
> it
> was only by accident, I think the population curve would tend to 0, so I
> assume every generation has had its share of Greybacks.

That's a reasonable assumption, I think. Frightening, of course. The other rather cynical option is that bitten wizards are so bloody incompetent that they can't *not* mess up and bite someone eventually. This has going for it the fact that Rowling's wizards *are* spectacularly incompetent. 

> I also think if vampires are studied in DADA it's for something, howhever
> 'beings' they are as a whole, but vampires have something to offer that
> wws
> don't: a kind of inmortality, so I see that some wizards can be seduced
> into
> being one (instead of 'accidented' or forced).

Hmmm.. Did Voldemort look into being a vampire at any time, do you think?

> But the point is, JKR sees it that way, or wizards have been experimenting
> and
> developing charms and potions for the last centuries?

Well, given that they've been using the exact same textbook for Advanced Potions since the 1940s, I'd say they're kind of stuck when it comes to innovation. The one guaranteed new potion in the book is Wolfsbane Potion and, although it's not stated to be so, I think most fans are right in suspecting the inventor is Snape, the non-traditional innovator. 

They *have* been keeping up with broom improvements, mind you. 


>I'm not very
> interested in a realistic background for the evolution of the WW, 

To my mind, there's no way you can approach an issue like "What are werewolves *really* like and how do they relate to the wizarding society?" without a) saying it's just a story so we'll take JKR's remarks about prejudice against werewolves being unfair on trust or b) playing that this is all real and trying to 'find out' what could have happened. Both legitimate responses. I enjoy playing with the latter, though the former is the 'real' truth. 

>I
> have to ask: Any type of knowledge in every part of the world was treated
> that way, or cultures/societys made a difference? Wizards strike me as
> very
> international very early (they unite against muggles, half breeds and
> other
> species, but I haven't seen religious/terrytorial/etnic wars between them
> to
> create compartimentalized knowledge), with an international council in
> 1750.

Well, you'd be surprised. Conflict, war, imperialism are often the ways knowledge gets uncompartmentalized (the Crusades were great for the general cause of knowledge!), but that's kind of beside the point, because as you say, there isn't very much evidence for traditional conflict among wizards. Lots of personal vendettas and feuds but not much of a nationalist, ethnic, or religious primary identity. They're wizards first before all things.

But while internationalism is a good thing for spreading knowledge, it's not necessarily a pushing point for innovation. Medieval Europe was an extremely international place, and earlier, so was the Roman Empire and before that, the Hellenistic World. If anything, internationalism sometimes exacerbated the problem, as people scrambled to get hold of the old texts that would explain everything. Telling an author his work was original would have been an insult before the Renaissance. 

As for other cultures, I am not an anthropologist but I really can't think  of any other pre-modern culture that historically *has* much valued innovation. Certainly not Japan or China before modern influences. That's not to say innovation doesn't happen, because it does all the time, but it's not eagerly pursued the way we pursue it today. And empirical experiments to gain knowledge weirdly seems to be one of the most foreign ideas in the world for people to grasp. It seems normal to us because we've been educated to see reality that way. 

The wizarding world has many features of the pre-modern world, and one of them is a focus on what is traditional to the expense of what is new. How far it goes is a good question. It is influenced by the Muggles, as well, to be sure.

Eileen





From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  8 04:51:01 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 04:51:01 -0000
Subject: Textbook reliablility? RE: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd]
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BBD@...>
Message-ID: <dpq5nl+m12g@...>

Eileen wrote: 
> Well, given that they've been using the exact same textbook for 
Advanced Potions since the 1940s, I'd say they're kind of stuck when 
it comes to innovation. The one guaranteed new potion in the book is 
Wolfsbane Potion and, although it's not stated to be so, I think most 
fans are right in suspecting the inventor is Snape, the non-
traditional innovator. 


Kathy W:
Actually, Damocles Belby(?) is the inventor of Wolfsbane Potion. That 
is, Belby's Uncle Damocles is. I wonder how the directions for making 
it was published? ("Potion Makers Magazine", "Cauldron Quarterly") Or 
did Lupin have the instructions which he gave to Snape?

As for the same text book. While Slughorn uses the text and has the 
NEWT level students make potions from it; Snape always provided 
instructions for his lower level students on a board. Who knows what 
text he might have been using for NEWTS. The book was old when Snape 
took Potions and we saw the changes he made. Hermione seemed to do 
better with Snape's style of teaching than with Slughorn's.

>Eileen:
> The wizarding world has many features of the pre-modern world, and 
one of them is a focus on what is traditional to the expense of what 
is new. How far it goes is a good question. It is influenced by the 
Muggles, as well, to be sure.

Kathy W:
Wonder if there is any way to tell how many new 
innovations/discoveries,etc were made by Muggle-born wizards.








From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  8 05:49:48 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 05:49:48 -0000
Subject: Textbook reliablility? RE: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd]
In-Reply-To: <200601061255.13212.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dpq95s+tfiu@...>

Silmariel
> I don't like furbys, that's a fact. I thought the extremist part could near 
> Fenris, but only in pass, I didn't even knew if they breeded or they bite. I 
> saw Scamander using a light tone not to give a too bad impression, but the 
> history underneath is usually bloody and violent.
> 
> Now that I know it is by bite, I have to ask myself how they reproduce, if it 
> was only by accident, I think the population curve would tend to 0, so I 
> assume every generation has had its share of Greybacks.

Pippin:
I suspect the wizards didn't give much thought to protecting Muggles
from werewolves until the statutes of secrecy were passed. I can see
the nastier sort of wizard using them to hunt Muggles, sort of like
a fox hunt but with broomsticks. 

Silmariel:
> Very extreme, that other example, I'll keep with Scamander. I'm not very 
> interested in a realistic background for the evolution of the WW, but then, I 
> have to ask: Any type of knowledge in every part of the world was treated 
> that way, or cultures/societys made a difference? Wizards strike me as very 
> international very early (they unite against muggles, half breeds and other 
> species, but I haven't seen religious/terrytorial/etnic wars between them to 
> create compartimentalized knowledge), with an international council in 1750.

Pippin:
I'm not an anthropologist either, but there's  a reason they call them 
traditional societies. If you are surviving harvest to harvest, or witchhunt
to witchhunt, then innovation is unacceptably risky. There's no going
back to the drawing board if you get it wrong.

Pippin






From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  8 14:54:55 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:54:55 -0500
Subject: Textbook reliablility? RE: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd]
References: <dpq95s+tfiu@...>
Message-ID: <008301c61463$7d5c5a00$6401a8c0@...>

Silmariel:
> Very extreme, that other example, I'll keep with Scamander. I'm not very
> interested in a realistic background for the evolution of the WW, but 
> then, I
> have to ask: Any type of knowledge in every part of the world was treated
> that way, or cultures/societys made a difference? Wizards strike me as 
> very
> international very early (they unite against muggles, half breeds and 
> other
> species, but I haven't seen religious/terrytorial/etnic wars between them 
> to
> create compartimentalized knowledge), with an international council in 
> 1750.

Rebecca:

Which brings up and interesting point which is semi related to your post. 
Is Fenrir Greyback a wizard? Lupin, in his human form, carries a wand and 
uses it. It doesn't appear Greyback does, as he physically attacks everyone 
rather than casts any charms or hexs at them. Just wondering...

Rebecca









From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  8 18:07:47 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 18:07:47 -0000
Subject: Textbook reliablility? RE: Lupin, mon amour was Re: Page-filler Lupin [the_old_crowd]
In-Reply-To: <dpq5nl+m12g@...>
Message-ID: <dprkdj+k1gq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> wrote:
>
> Eileen wrote: 
> > Well, given that they've been using the exact same textbook for 
> Advanced Potions since the 1940s, I'd say they're kind of stuck when 
> it comes to innovation. The one guaranteed new potion in the book is 
> Wolfsbane Potion and, although it's not stated to be so, I think most 
> fans are right in suspecting the inventor is Snape, the non-
> traditional innovator. 
> 
> 
> Kathy W:
> Actually, Damocles Belby(?) is the inventor of Wolfsbane Potion. That 
> is, Belby's Uncle Damocles is. I wonder how the directions for making 
> it was published? ("Potion Makers Magazine", "Cauldron Quarterly") Or 
> did Lupin have the instructions which he gave to Snape?

Pippin:
The wizard who does the work isn't always the one who takes credit for
it. Snape may have had to publish under Damocles' name in order to
maintain his cover. We do know that Lockhart's work was not his own.

Snape is supposed to hate werewolves, after all.
Making the potion because Dumbledore ordered it is one thing, actually
inventing something that would improve their lives is something else.

I think Fenrir is not a wizard, or at any rate has not been trained to use
a wand. I wonder if he has to  use side-along apparition to get to 
DE meetings? Maybe ESE!Lupin gives him a lift <veg>. On the other
hand his DE robes looked too tight, so maybe he isn't an inner circle
DE and just borrowed them for the occasion.

Pippin






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  8 19:15:40 2006
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 19:15:40 -0000
Subject: Sirius, was : Lupin, mon amour
In-Reply-To: <dpgu87+jii8@...>
Message-ID: <dprocs+lvu1@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> Most likely Sirius had to die because he knew too much. "Harry, take
> the prophecy and run!" or words to that effect. Sounds like Sirius
> knew what the prophecy was, knew where it could be found, and
> thought that Harry knew too. But only a Death Eater could have
> told Sirius that. Dumbledore and Snape knew that Harry didn't
> have a clue which prophecy Voldemort was after.

I thought Sirius knew about the Prophecy because James & Lily had 
told him. They chose Sirius to be Harry's godfather and to be Harry's
guardian if something happened to them, in a context where it was not
unlikely that something would happen to them. Surely they would have
wanted to keep their understudy informed of the baby's medical
history, favorite toys, AND any significant prophecies that led
Voldemort to want to kill him.






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan  8 22:40:26 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:40:26 -0000
Subject: Sirius, was : Lupin, mon amour
In-Reply-To: <dprocs+lvu1@...>
Message-ID: <dps4cq+q8sc@...>

Rita:
> I thought Sirius knew about the Prophecy because James & Lily had 
> told him. They chose Sirius to be Harry's godfather and to be Harry's
> guardian if something happened to them, in a context where it was not
> unlikely that something would happen to them. Surely they would have
> wanted to keep their understudy informed of the baby's medical
> history, favorite toys, AND any significant prophecies that led
> Voldemort to want to kill him.

Pippin:
That's what I thought too, at first.  But would James and Lily have told
Sirius, would they  have even known, that a copy of the prophecy had
been stored in the Department of Mysteries? That might  have
been known to Dumbledore and the DoM staff alone. 

Something that puzzles me is why Voldemort didn't question Rookwood
about recovering the prophecy before he decided to attack at Godric's Hollow.
But maybe Voldemort didn't know  that Dumbledore had the means of 
recalling the whole thing, and thought that the last part of the prophecy 
had gone unheard in the uproar over Snape's discovery. Voldemort may
not be aware of all the uses of a pensieve. But it also might be that
the attack was more a crime of opportunity -- maybe Voldemort delayed
so long because he was debating whether to go after one of the two
children or the prophecy itself, and then the Secret Keeper switch gave
him the Potters.

But maybe one of the things that enabled Snape to slither back into Voldemort's
good graces was the report that the entire prophecy had been stored at the
MoM.

Pippin






From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan  9 20:42:03 2006
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:42:03 -0000
Subject: Snape's Age RE: Tonks's age: A possible solution
In-Reply-To: <dpk4np+3lg5@...>
Message-ID: <dpuhqr+3eji@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Alec" <alec.dossetor at f...> 
wrote:

> Maybe the the two surviving branches of the Black family each had 
> one of the family homes: Sirius' parents had the London house, and 
> Narcissa's parents the country house - suggesting that Sirius' dad 
> was the younger of the two brothers. After all, the family is 
> considerably older than any London terraced house. 
> 
Pip!Squeak
House, yes, but what about the land it stands on? You can trace some 
London plots back to the 16th or 17th century with very little 
problem - various houses have been knocked down and rebuilt on the 
same plots. It wouldn't surprise me if the terrace was originally 
built around No. 12 because some builder thought he owned all the 
plots in the street (the plot of land the Blacks were on being 
unplottable) - seems more likely than the Blacks choosing 
deliberately to live amongst muggles 

What Dumbledore describes, with the house going to the oldest male 
Black in the direct line, is an entail. The purpose of an entail was 
to *avoid* the property being split up - so it would seem a bit 
weird if the Malfoy Manor came to Narcissa via the Black side of the 
family as part of a split-up of family property. However, there's 
nothing whatsoever to stop the house having come to her via her 
mother's side of the family - say a childless uncle, leaving the 
house to the only niece who's made a 'good' pureblood marriage?

Another alternative is that *Lucius's* uncle told him he'd make him 
his heir - if and only if he made a 'suitable' match.

Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape







From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan  9 20:52:41 2006
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:52:41 -0000
Subject: Who'd have thought it? was: Re: Snape the Half-Blood Prince WAS RE: Page-filler
In-Reply-To: <dpg9ql+f1kb@...>
Message-ID: <dpuiep+ki9e@...>

Kneasy wrote:
> Y-e-e-e-s. 
> Dodgy maths, dodgy timelines, occasional dodgy recall of canon.
> Sometimes one wonders if Jo could hold her own in some of the
> convoluted analysis threads that occasionally grace the boards.

Yes, well. Personally, once you get into writing very loooong 
stories, you suddenly begin to appreciate why poor Jo can't recall 
earlier bits of canon. Two thirds of the way in and it's 
already 'what the hell did I call that bit-part character in Chapter 
5?' By now Jo is probably on the 'what was Book 2 about again?' 
stage {g}

Kneasy:
> Ah, I see it all, now.
> It's gonna be a repeat of that Shakespeare authorship theory - the 
> plays weren't written by William Shakespeare, but by someone else 
> with exactly the same name.
> Cunning ploy.

Shakespeare was written by Shakespeare. No actor would ever dream of 
working for a theatre called 'The Royal Bacon Company'. 

Even if their performance style might be ideally suited. {g}


Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape







From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan  9 21:07:47 2006
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:07:47 -0000
Subject: Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <dpea7f+o4ir@...>
Message-ID: <dpujb3+248t@...>


Pip!Squeak:  
> > But following the first book finale is a dangerous idea; the 
> > finale of the first book reveals that Snape ('Professor Snape, 
> > Harry') wasn't the real villain. In fact, he was trying to 
> > protect Harry all along {vbg}
> 
Anne:
> Well, the idea that the seven books are following the seven PS/SS
> tasks is still working out beautifully (logic! potions! and 
> Snape!),so besides what you just said, I'll be looking for 
> mirrors, heart's desires, and brilliant ideas of Dumbledore's.

Pip!Squeak:
And possibly Harry discovering that to truly protect something means 
risking or even losing it - the Stone is most vulnerable *after* 
Harry's got it out of the Mirror, and in the end Nicholas and 
Perenelle decide the best course is to destroy it (and refuse 
immortality).
 
> > Pip!Squeak
> > Raising her sleepy head from the Teacup of Lurkdom to wish 
> > everyone at The Old Crowd a Happy New Year!

Anne:
> You've already brightened mine!  I was sorting through Harry posts 
> for the catalogue, slogging through unimaginative SHIPping posts 
> and I forget what else (definitely a low point in HPfGU, Harry-
> wise) when suddenly, the skies cleared, the sun came out, and the 
> next post was Spy Games!  It slowed me down quite a bit, though, 
> because I had to read them leisurely--ly (in a leisurely 
manner :P).

Pip!Squeak:
Thank you for that! They are a bit of a heavy read though - I think 
at the time I strongly suggested getting a cup of tea *first* {g}.

Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 10:54:30 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:54:30 +0000
Subject: Picture plus...
Message-ID: <19BFB77D-E0E5-4A63-810B-22F8362E0736@...>

Interesting photograph of herself on the front page of the Daily  
Telegraph (unfortunately it doesn't seem to feature in the on-line  
versions I've accessed). However, our girl seems to be indulging in a  
touch of vampish glamour, very reminiscent of some vaguely remembered  
fan pics of Rita Hayworth, Jane Russell, and the like. Yes, it does  
date me, I realise that.
Still, it's an encouraging trend.

Also a full page interview, though it's mostly about her feelings  
about her mothers death, obsession (not too strong a word IMO) with  
death in general, being rich,  etc. (Photo and interview are extracts  
from a longer piece to be published in the next issue of The Tatler,  
it says.)

Mere snippets about book 7 - there will be deaths, of good and bad.
Oh, splendid!
I've made my little list long since.
The long awaited Weasley cull, the Creevey creep, Luna, Harry, Lupin,  
Bella, Malfoy Snr & Jnr; the list is quite comprehensive. Not sure  
about Voldy - can he be snuffed completely or will there be some  
fragment that wanders the world looking for a susceptible helpmate? A  
force for evil that will always be with us?
No matter; a horrible death every third chapter would suit me fine.  
And assuming the book runs to about 30 chapters.... yes, please!

Kneasy



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 11:09:22 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:09:22 -0000
Subject: Picture plus...
In-Reply-To: <19BFB77D-E0E5-4A63-810B-22F8362E0736@...>
Message-ID: <dq04l2+3ueg@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>
> Interesting photograph of herself on the front page of the Daily  
> Telegraph (unfortunately it doesn't seem to feature in the on-line  
> versions I've accessed). However, our girl seems to be indulging in a  
> touch of vampish glamour, very reminiscent of some vaguely remembered  
> fan pics of Rita Hayworth, Jane Russell, and the like. Yes, it does  
> date me, I realise that.
> Still, it's an encouraging trend.
> 

Found it!

http://dailytelegraph.newspaperdirect.com/screenprint/viewer.aspx

Come on, admit it - would you have made an instant identification  from
this pic?

Kneasy






From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 11:38:13 2006
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:38:13 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Picture plus...
References: <dq04l2+3ueg@...>
Message-ID: <00b201c615da$573a7320$d82cfea9@albrechtuj0zx7>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>
> Interesting photograph of herself on the front page of the Daily  
> Telegraph (unfortunately it doesn't seem to feature in the on-line  
> versions I've accessed).

Found it!

http://dailytelegraph.newspaperdirect.com/screenprint/viewer.aspx

Come on, admit it - would you have made an instant identification  from
this pic?

Kneasy


Whoa!  Vote me a "no" on that question.

SSSusan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 11:47:19 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:47:19 -0000
Subject: Current FAQ Poll
Message-ID: <dq06s7+r865@...>

Hmmm.  What to do about the FAQ poll. 

Already-answered question number 3 is obviously a test to see who is 
sleeping at the wheel. 

Question 1 is currently in the lead: *What happens to a secret when 
the Secret-Keeper dies?*

I'd have thought we had enough information from Book 3, where Sirius 
admonishes Pettigrew that he should have died rather than reveal the 
secret.  I would seem from this statement (which appears to be 
shared by Lupin) that if Pettigrew had chosen to go to his grave 
with closed lips, the secret (and the Potters) would have remained 
safe (PoA 375).

Flitwick's explanation to Madame Rosmerta, with 
Fudge/Hagrid/McGonagall's tacit assent, explains that, once 
concealed in the soul, the secret is *henceforth impossible to find--
unless...the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it* (205). No 
requirement for continued life included.

Additionally, we are told that Voldemort could *have his nose 
pressed against their sitting room window* and yet not find the 
Potters, as long as the Keeper kept the secret (205).  

If the Keeper's death would have allowed Voldemort to see the 
Potters when he--or his henchmen--cast their eyes on the Potter 
abode, it would have been minimally useful, albeit a fine gesture, 
for Pettigrew to stand and be zapped.  

Indeed, if the death of the Keeper negated the charm, the whole 
business would seem a rickety piece of work, considering the war-
time mortality rate of the Order.  

But, again, we know that James's reasoning in choosing Sirius was 
his belief that Sirius would, in fact, opt to die rather than reveal-
-indicating that James also believed that the secret would remain  
safe, if held to the death (205).

I'm satisfied.

That leaves question 2.  Yes, I know we've seen the Diary Hx 
destroyed, but, afterall, it was destroyed with the venomous fang of 
a rare magical creature--by a boy chock-full of the Hx-maker's 
essence--and while it's contents was out for a stroll.

Chucking the Diary in the toilet--generally destructive to books--
wasn't sufficient.  It's not clear that the Diary Hx--along with 
it's malignant resident-- would have been destroyed if, say, Ron, 
had simply tried to rip it up.

Afterall, why didn't DD deploy a Special Ops team of Order members 
to find and smash Hxes? Why is he so bent on it being young Harry's 
solo mission?  Oh, right.  He gets his teenage sidekicks, too.

I mean, according to the old duffer's most recent version, the 
Prophecy is hooey. And, you do trust him don't you? <veg>

DD, circa HBP, has restyled the Prophecy as simply the otherwise 
meaningless reason that Voldemort won't rest until he whacks Harry, 
but why should that mean that only Harry can destroy Hxes, or the 
Dark Lord proper?

The *it's just choices* explanation doesn't cover the nut.

I suppose it may be that DD doesn't trust his lovely Order. What 
with Tonks tripping over cursed items, Lupin needing to appear at 
werewolf functions, Hagrid's stealth problems, McGonagall's 
rheumatism, Moody's clunky leg, the Weasely elder's general 
ineptitude, and Voldemort practicing Legilimens on everyone. 

Must have thought Snape would be busy elsewhere, eh?

And, of course, they went to the expense of axing Sirius to make 
Harry Voldie-proof. <g>

Still, I'm thinking number 2 holds the most promise.

Talisman, willing to hear other ideas on the subject.

PS
The main reason people might be interested in number 1, is the idea 
that Number 12 Grimmauld Place could be insecure if DD is really 
dead.  

But of course, all of the Order knows about the events on the 
parapet, and, if there were any question as to HQ security, they 
could simply go wherever they went at the beginning of HBP (when 
ownership was in doubt) until a new S.K. can be slapped together.  

Just not enough plot mileage there.  








From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 12:08:56 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:08:56 -0000
Subject: Picture plus...
In-Reply-To: <dq04l2+3ueg@...>
Message-ID: <dq084o+o11c@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote: > 
>Interesting photograph of herself on the front page of the Daily  
> > Telegraph <snip>  
our girl seems to be indulging in a  
> > touch of vampish glamour 
<snip>
> > Come on, admit it - would you have made an instant 
identification  from  this pic?
>> Kneasy


Yes, indeedy. She appears to have had the *Feel Fabulous Breakfast* 
touted in the banner. 

Quite a change from the climbing-over-the-trash-looking-for-the-lost-
notebook-and-a-hanky-to-wipe-the-kids-noses image she posted.

I'm glad.  What's the point of money if you don't know how to have 
fun?  Not to mention healthier looking hair.

And, now that she's had that bit of fun, she can just get on back to 
that keyboard--where she belongs for at least the duration of 2006.

Talisman








From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 12:17:02 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:17:02 -0000
Subject: Picture plus...
In-Reply-To: <dq084o+o11c@...>
Message-ID: <dq08ju+jpg9@...>

Clarifying that *yes indeedy* was used in the manner of a general 
interjection, whereas *no indeedy* is the technical answer to Kneasy's 
query: *Would you have recognized her at first glance?*

Talisman






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 16:15:55 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:15:55 -0000
Subject: Current FAQ Poll
In-Reply-To: <dq06s7+r865@...>
Message-ID: <dq0mjr+u3jt@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> wrote:
>
> Hmmm.  What to do about the FAQ poll. 
> 
> Already-answered question number 3 is obviously a test to see who is 
> sleeping at the wheel. 
> 
> Question 1 is currently in the lead: *What happens to a secret when 
> the Secret-Keeper dies?*
> 
> I'd have thought we had enough information from Book 3, where Sirius 
> admonishes Pettigrew that he should have died rather than reveal the 
> secret.  I would seem from this statement (which appears to be 
> shared by Lupin) that if Pettigrew had chosen to go to his grave 
> with closed lips, the secret (and the Potters) would have remained 
> safe (PoA 375).

Pippin:
That might make things awkward for the Potters in future, though,
even if the deceased SK leaves behind a supply of those handy scraps of paper
with the secret on it. I want to know whether the spell allows for
a successor.


<snip> 
> That leaves question 2.  Yes, I know we've seen the Diary Hx 
> destroyed, but, afterall, it was destroyed with the venomous fang of 
> a rare magical creature--by a boy chock-full of the Hx-maker's 
> essence--and while it's contents was out for a stroll.
> 
> Chucking the Diary in the toilet--generally destructive to books--
> wasn't sufficient.  It's not clear that the Diary Hx--along with 
> it's malignant resident-- would have been destroyed if, say, Ron, 
> had simply tried to rip it up.
> 
> Afterall, why didn't DD deploy a Special Ops team of Order members 
> to find and smash Hxes? Why is he so bent on it being young Harry's 
> solo mission?  

Pippin:
Because Voldemort, besides protecting the diary against fire and water,
would surely have rigged it to curse anyone who succeeded in 
harming it. Yet Harry did so unscathed. Apparently Harry has enough
of Voldemort's magic in him that the enchantments on the Diary 
recognized him as a 'friendly' and didn't go off. Harry also seemed
drawn to the Diary far more than Ron or Hermione, so maybe Dumbledore was
hoping that Harry would be able to recognize horcruxes by this affinity,
an ability that remains untested since the locket horcrux was a fake.

Pippin






From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 16:46:33 2006
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:46:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Current FAQ Poll
In-Reply-To: <dq0mjr+u3jt@...>
Message-ID: <20060110164633.54043.qmail@...>

Talisman:
> > Hmmm.  What to do about the FAQ poll. 
> > 
> > Already-answered question number 3 is obviously a
test to see 
> > who is sleeping at the wheel. 

SSSusan:
I agree.  It's a little annoying that it's garnering
some votes, actually -- and not just a few, but 15%.


Talisman: 
> > Question 1 is currently in the lead: *What happens
to a 
> > secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?*
> > 
> > I'd have thought we had enough information from
Book 3....

Pippin:
> That might make things awkward for the Potters in
future, 
> though, even if the deceased SK leaves behind a
supply of those 
> handy scraps of paper with the secret on it. I want
to know 
> whether the spell allows for a successor.

SSSusan:
In what way might it be awkward, Pippin?  I'm afraid
I'm not following you.  

The notion of a successor is interesting... though I'd
be more interested, right now, in whether there can be
a successor for a Life Debt -- whether a person can
transfer an LD from one individual to another (as has
been proposed that DD did in transfering Snape's LD to
James to a LD to Harry).

 
Talisman: 
> > That leaves question 2.  Yes, I know we've seen
the Diary Hx 
> > destroyed, but, afterall, it was destroyed with
the venomous 
> > fang of a rare magical creature--by a boy
chock-full of the 
> > Hx-maker's essence--and while it's contents was
out for a 
> > stroll.
> >  
> > Chucking the Diary in the toilet--generally
destructive to 
> > books--wasn't sufficient.  It's not clear that the
Diary Hx--
> > along with it's malignant resident-- would have
been 
> > destroyed if, say, Ron, had simply tried to rip it
up.

SSSusan:
Do we know how long the diary was in said toilet?  Is
this (gasp) movie contamination, or did Myrtle "spit
it back out" of the toilet?  I do wonder what would've
happened if it'd gotten flushed and gone on down into
the sewer pipes.  Would it have lain there, still a
horsewhallop, awaiting discovery and still protecting
its owner?  Or would it have been destroyed by the
water and... erm... muck?


Talisman: 
> > Afterall, why didn't DD deploy a Special Ops team
of Order 
> > members to find and smash Hxes? Why is he so bent
on it being 
> > young Harry's solo mission?  

Pippin:
> Because Voldemort, besides protecting the diary
against fire 
> and water, would surely have rigged it to curse
anyone who 
> succeeded in harming it. Yet Harry did so unscathed.
Apparently 
> Harry has enough of Voldemort's magic in him that
the 
> enchantments on the Diary recognized him as a
'friendly' and 
> didn't go off. 

SSSusan:
Personally, it seems a fairly big leap to suggest that
the diary recognized Harry as "friendly."  It might
have been the protections in Harry, as opposed to the
diary recognizing anything about him and his
"friendliness" or familiarity (Essence of Voldy).

Couldn't it also be that the diary was fairly easy to
destroy because it was Voldy's first attempt at a
horslut?  Perhaps he hadn't quite figured out or
developed his super-duper,
I-kill-you-if-you-mess-with-me defenses just yet.

Or perhaps Voldy *designed* this Hx differently than
the others he created later, by virtue of the fact
that he *wanted* someone to pick it up and write in it
in order to bring him back.  That might mean he had to
leave it somehow more vulnerable to destruction
because he wanted it to have that dual purpose of
storing a soul bit *and* having the ability to bring
his earlier self back out?  

I'm inclined to think it was a combination of the
protection against Voldy that resides in Harry and the
perhaps relative weakness of the particular diary
howchop.  


Pippin:
> Harry also seemed drawn to the Diary far more than
Ron or 
> Hermione, so maybe Dumbledore was hoping that Harry
would be 
> able to recognize horcruxes by this affinity, an
ability that 
> remains untested since the locket horcrux was a
fake.

SSSusan:
That's an interesting possibility.  While I think
Harry was (and I know I as a reader was ) in awe of
DD's ability to FEEL and SENSE the presence of magic
-- of particular types, styles, varieties, even to
recognize "Voldy's kind of magic," perhaps that was a
very special gift of his.  And I remember thinking as
I read, "How the hell is HARRY going to be able to
learn to do that kind of thing?  He's still learning
TEXTBOOK spells and enchantments."  

IOW, I couldn't imagine his so quickly developing the
kind of sensitivity that DD displayed in the cave, in
terms of recognizing magic and Voldy's presence in it.

However, it could be that the connection between Harry
& Voldy, the Essence of Voldy within Harry, will help
him develop or will mean he automatically has an
"affinity" for recognizing Voldy's hoodoos in the
needs-to-be-short-term search.


ANYWAY, back to Talisman's point about which FAQ item
to vote for.  I know that one reason I favored #2 was
the possibility of finding out that, other than the
diary, one might typically need to DO something more
than destroy the encasing object in order to destroy
the hx within.  It has been suggested many places, for
instance, that Harry might need to gather the
horlopses and then toss them behind the Veil to truly
get them out of this world.  

*If* Jo could be trusted to answer the question fully,
the possibility of finding out whether it's a one-step
process (destroy the object and you destroy the hx
simultaneously) or a two-step process (destroy the
object, but you still gotta discard the hx somehow)
would be interesting.

Siriusly Snapey Susan




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 18:58:28 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:58:28 -0000
Subject: Current FAQ Poll
In-Reply-To: <dq0mjr+u3jt@...>
Message-ID: <dq104k+orq4@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

(Speaking of the notion that death does not undo a Fidelius Charm):

>That might make things awkward for the Potters in future, though,
>even if the deceased SK leaves behind a supply of those handy scraps 
>of paper with the secret on it. I want to know whether the spell 
>allows for a successor.

Do you anticipate that this will be important to the plot of Book 7? Or 
more of a wrapping-up detail?

Talisman






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 19:42:09 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:42:09 -0000
Subject: Current FAQ Poll
In-Reply-To: <dq104k+orq4@...>
Message-ID: <dq12mh+hnvh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> 
> (Speaking of the notion that death does not undo a Fidelius Charm):
> 
> >That might make things awkward for the Potters in future, though,
> >even if the deceased SK leaves behind a supply of those handy scraps 
> >of paper with the secret on it. I want to know whether the spell 
> >allows for a successor.
> 
> Do you anticipate that this will be important to the plot of Book 7? Or 
> more of a wrapping-up detail?
> 

I seem to remember that there were a few posts postulating what would
happen to the 'secret' if the SK snuffed it - about a couple years back on
TOL, it was. My offering was that the secret would no longer be magically 
hidden, citing as an example the confusion, consternation and cock-ups 
that might result if say, DD caught it in the neck. (Not a brilliant prediction,
much as I'd like it to be, since DD was the only other SK we knew of.)

Then there's GH.
It was the building that was hidden, not the Potters. But death to one of the
parties to the enchantment and *poof* the building (or its ruins) become
visible to everyone.

Mind you, being sneaky, if J&L hadn't appeared as play-back ghosts in
the graveyard, then I'd be theorising that they're not dead after all and 
that Peter is the key to everything. 
Hmm. 
A truly nauseating happy ending. Can't have that.
But...
How much would Jo be willing to cheat, d'you think?

Kneasy








From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 10 19:55:56 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:55:56 -0000
Subject: Current FAQ Poll
In-Reply-To: <dq104k+orq4@...>
Message-ID: <dq13gc+kb4r@...>

 --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> 
> (Speaking of the notion that death does not undo a Fidelius Charm):
> 
> >That might make things awkward for the Potters in future, though,
> >even if the deceased SK leaves behind a supply of those handy scraps 
> >of paper with the secret on it. I want to know whether the spell 
> >allows for a successor.

Talisman:
> Do you anticipate that this will be important to the plot of Book 7? Or 
> more of a wrapping-up detail?


Pippin:

It could be. 

If Harry wanted to admit Luna or Neville to GP for some reason, he wouldn't
be able to  unless there's either a successor secret keeper or there are some
of those handy scraps.

Then the new SK  could be someone interesting...Aberforth? or Harry himself?

 I imagine  the Potters would have had some  problems if their secret keeper  
died and there was no successor , though in their case it's not clear 
whether it was them or their house that was hidden. Either way, what if their baby
sitter quit or their House Elf died...or what if they had another baby?! 

Pippin







From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 11 00:23:24 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:23:24 -0000
Subject: Picture plus...
In-Reply-To: <dq084o+o11c@...>
Message-ID: <dq1j5s+r5fv@...>

 "Talisman" wrote: 
> I'm glad.  What's the point of money if you don't know how to have 
> fun?  Not to mention healthier looking hair.
> 
> And, now that she's had that bit of fun, she can just get on back to 
> that keyboard--where she belongs for at least the duration of 2006.
> 

Potioncat:
You know, with the usual "curtains of blonde hair" JKR generally has, I 
was beginning to think Snape was a Gary Sue. Now I'm starting to wonder 
if instead, her Mary Sue is Narcissa or Bella!







From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 11 00:51:36 2006
From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:51:36 -0000
Subject: Current FAQ Poll
In-Reply-To: <20060110164633.54043.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dq1kqo+ftt0@...>

SSS wrote:
> Pippin:
> > That might make things awkward for the Potters in
> future, 
> > though, even if the deceased SK leaves behind a
> supply of those 
> > handy scraps of paper with the secret on it. I want
> to know 
> > whether the spell allows for a successor.
> 
> SSSusan:
> In what way might it be awkward, Pippin?  I'm afraid
> I'm not following you.  

Well, it would be deuced awkward going around for the rest of your 
life with nobody able to see or hear you, no matter how loud you 
shouted, and knowing that there was absolutely nothing you could do 
about it.

Of course, if it's just the house, it's not so bad, though there 
might be a risk of not being able to get back in once you left.

David






From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 11 03:31:26 2006
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 03:31:26 -0000
Subject: Current FAQ Poll
In-Reply-To: <dq1kqo+ftt0@...>
Message-ID: <dq1u6e+m73p@...>



> > Pippin:
> > > That might make things awkward for the Potters in
> > future, 
> > > though, even if the deceased SK leaves behind a
> > supply of those 
> > > handy scraps of paper with the secret on it. I want
> > to know 
> > > whether the spell allows for a successor.

> > 
> > SSSusan:
> > In what way might it be awkward, Pippin?  I'm afraid
> > I'm not following you.  


> David:
> Well, it would be deuced awkward going around for the rest of your 
> life with nobody able to see or hear you, no matter how loud you 
> shouted, and knowing that there was absolutely nothing you could do 
> about it.
> 
> Of course, if it's just the house, it's not so bad, though there 
> might be a risk of not being able to get back in once you left.
> 

Neri:
And one can't help but wonder, if the SK is dead and every one who was
told about the secret dies too, does the house just remain in limbo,
forever inaccessible to all humanity?

Well, nothing illogical about it, of course. It just seems like it
shouldn't be allowed. In fact, Voldy could use this effect to device
the ultimate Hx hiding place: put all his Horcruxes in a house, make
someone the SK, kill SK, Voila! No one would ever find his Hxs again.

Neri








From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 14 01:02:16 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:02:16 -0000
Subject: Some questions
Message-ID: <dq9iio+e07q@...>



Just a few questions I've been pondering
and since there hasn't been 
much activity lately I thought it might be a good time to ask. 

(1) Did Marvolo see his daughter as a squib because she lacked the 
ability to speak parceltongue? Is parcelmouth a magic ability for 
anyone magical or an inherited trait only representative of the 
Slytherin bloodline? 

(2) If the castle is protected from anyone flying into the grounds 
(via Dumbledore and Harry flying into Hogwarts for the final showdown 
on the tower), how did the Ford Anglia manage to get through the 
magical defenses in COS?

(3) If the Phoenix has healing powers in its tears, why didn't Fawkes 
just cry on Dumbledore's wand hand that was burned by the Horcrux to 
heal it? 

(4) Why was the Bloody Baron hanging around the Astronomy tower (like 
a lookout?) the night Harry got the Slughorn memory? Whose side is 
the Baron on, is he one of the ghosts who was interested in Harry 
being the Chosen One that Nick refused to comment on in the chapter 
Snape Victorious? 

(5) How would the twins even know about the `unbreakable vow' at age 
nine let alone attempt to perform it on a five-year-old Ron?  Where 
did they see someone doing this at age nine that they would even know 
of `its' existence? 

(6) Does anyone else see the big blonde death eater as a giant with 
less skill with his wand than even Hagrid? Is that why the blonde 
death eater chose to ignite Hagrid's cabin because he realized it 
would be futile to engage stunners against a giant, being one 
himself?  

If any of these questions have been asked before and I missed them or 
they were discussed on TOL while I was on hiatus, please except my 
apologies. 

Snow







From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 14 03:10:43 2006
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:10:43 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dq9iio+e07q@...>
Message-ID: <dq9q3j+b97q@...>

--- snow15145 wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Just a few questions I've been pondering


<snip>

 (6) Does anyone else see the big blonde death eater as a giant with 
> less skill with his wand than even Hagrid? Is that why the blonde 
> death eater chose to ignite Hagrid's cabin because he realized it 
> would be futile to engage stunners against a giant, being one 
> himself?  
> 

Ah, Blondie. I think there is much that can be discovered about this 
big guy. 

I am certain that there is more to the Blond Death Eater than meets 
the eye. I'm quite confident that he and Snape are in cahoots and 
both on the Side of Good.

Let's put the Battle of Hogwarts into proper chronology:

Death Eaters arrive through the vanishing cabinet. They start a 
fight with members of the Order. Blondie, who is described 
as "enormous" is blasting curses everywhere, but always just misses 
Order members. He is making a mess of the castle, though.

Gibbon, a DE, goes to the top of the Astronomy Tower and sets off 
the Dark Mark. His orders are to stay there and wait for Dumbledore, 
but he disobeys and comes back down to join the fight. Blondie, who 
is fighting Tonks, "accidentally" kills him with an AK, apparently 
meant for Ginnie.

Neville is hurt, Bill is bitten. Dumbledore and Harry arrive at the 
top of the Tower. Malfoy slips through the battle and goes to the 
top of the Tower. Fenrir, Amycus, Alecto and a brutal-faced DE go up 
the tower stairs and lock the entrance behind them.

Fenrir starts to bite Dumbledore, but Brutal-face stops him by 
blasting him out of the way.

Snape arrives. Snape AK's Dumbledore.

Snape and Malfoy flee the tower. Greyback, Amycus and Alecto follow. 
Harry freezes Brutal-face and runs down the tower.

Greyback attacks Harry. Someone freezes Greyback. (Blondie?) Harry 
pushes Greyback off him. A flash of green light (an AK?) comes 
toward him but doesn't connect with anyone. Blondie attempting an AK 
on Greyback?

Ginnie is fighting Amycus who is trying to Crucio her. Harry blasts 
him away.

Blondie is fighting Tonks and again is missing all the vitals but 
doing heavy damage to the surroundings. Harry is trying to follow 
Snape, but Blondie's blasts are slowing him down. Harry hexes 
Blondie, painfully, and is able to resume chasing Amycus, Alecto and 
Snape. Someone (Blondie?) is calling Harry to come back, but Harry 
ignores it.

Harry races toward the front doors. He turns a corner and a curse 
(apparently) misses him, knocking over a suit of armor. (From whom?) 
He sees Amycus and Alecto. He attempts to jinx them, but misses. He 
jumps over the suit of armor (Was the curse actually aimed at the 
suit of armor to create an obstacle to slow down Harry as he chases 
down Snape?)

Harry takes a short cut. He arrives at the oak front doors which 
have been blasted and show signs of blood. The Gryffindor hourglass 
is broken and the rubies are falling onto the flagstones. (Another 
attempt to slow Harry down?) Harry runs through the oak doors and 
outside where he sees Snape, Malfoy and Blondie headed for the gates.

Hagrid tries to stop the three from escaping and gets repeatedly 
blasted by Blondie. The hexes do no damage to Hagrid.

Amycus and Alecto hex Harry from behind. Harry falls down. He hexes 
them back, hitting one and causing the other to fall down.

Blondie is buying time for Snape and Malfoy by repeatedly hexing 
Hagrid while Snape and Malfoy run towards their escape.

Harry runs past Blondie and Hagrid and attempts to hex Snape. Snape 
tells Malfoy to run and turns to face Harry. Harry attempts to 
Crucio Snape but Snape parries, stopping Harry from completing the 
curse. Blondie Incendio's Hagrid's hut. Hagrid rushes to his hut to 
save Fang. Harry tries many curses on Snape which Snape parries 
easily. Snape does not attempt any hexes against Harry. Neither does 
Blondie.

Someone painfully hexes Harry, possibly a crucio, but we don't hear 
it. Snape cancels the curse with a yell, and tells the caster of the 
curse that they are to leave Harry for Voldy. Possible casters of 
the curse are: Amycus, Alecto and Blondie who are all in position to 
do it.

Amycus, Alecto and Blondie run for the gates. Snape stays behind to 
deal with Harry. Harry attempts Levicorpus and Snape blasts him. 
They have an impassioned discussion. Snape blasts Harry to the 
ground once more, knocking the breath out of him. Buckbeak attacks 
Snape. Snape heads for the gates, being chased by Buckbeak. Snape 
escapes.

So. What can we conclude here? Blondie makes lots of dust, but 
doesn't harm any Order member, but does take out a DE who is 
disobeying orders. Gibbon is supposed to stay out of the fight. Once 
he comes back in, Blondie takes him out permanently. Blondie is also 
the one who opens up the tower block to permit Order members access 
to the tower, although it turned out not to be useful.

I think there is good evidence that it was Blondie who saved Harry 
from Fenrir as well. The only Order member that Blondie actually 
attacks is Hagrid, and his hexes do no harm to Hagrid, either. But 
it does keep Hagrid from interfering with Snape and Malfoy's escape.

My belief is that Blondie is there as a second Dumbledore Man to 
ensure that Snape and Malfoy get away cleanly and that Harry stays 
safe. 

So who is Blondie? JKR says that all major characters have been 
introduced. He could be another giant. But I think pure giants have 
no magic, else they would not be so fascinated by a magical gift 
from a wizard. I think he is not a giant. Besides, he is "enormous", 
not gigantic. Could he be Olympe under polyjuice? He never speaks. 
Or Aberforth? The Dumbledore brothers are known to be tall.

So. Any thoughts?

Constance Vigilance







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 14 14:13:37 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:13:37 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dq9q3j+b97q@...>
Message-ID: <dqb0uh+lpqt@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "constancevigilance" <constancevigilance at y...> 
wrote:
> 
>  (6) Does anyone else see the big blonde death eater as a giant with 
> > less skill with his wand than even Hagrid? Is that why the blonde 
> > death eater chose to ignite Hagrid's cabin because he realized it 
> > would be futile to engage stunners against a giant, being one 
> > himself?  
> > 
> 
> Ah, Blondie. I think there is much that can be discovered about this 
> big guy. 
> 
> I am certain that there is more to the Blond Death Eater than meets 
> the eye. I'm quite confident that he and Snape are in cahoots and 
> both on the Side of Good.
> snip>
> 
> My belief is that Blondie is there as a second Dumbledore Man to 
> ensure that Snape and Malfoy get away cleanly and that Harry stays 
> safe. 
> 
> So who is Blondie? JKR says that all major characters have been 
> introduced. He could be another giant. But I think pure giants have 
> no magic, else they would not be so fascinated by a magical gift 
> from a wizard. I think he is not a giant. Besides, he is "enormous", 
> not gigantic. Could he be Olympe under polyjuice? He never speaks. 
> Or Aberforth? The Dumbledore brothers are known to be tall.
> 
> So. Any thoughts?
> 

Conspiracy theories and alternative agenda theories are always fun,
gives the members a chance to stretch their imaginative legs, and 
it's not that I wouldn't be chuffed to little mint balls if you turned
out to be right, but... whenever there's a set-piece confrontation,
authorial partiality, protectionism, the requirements of plot continuation
always seem to over-ride everday expectations.

The baddies are so distressingly incompetent that one wants to take
'em by the scruff of the neck and give 'em a damn good shaking. 
"Look, pillock - you're a seriously evil killer wizard with a wand in your
hand. Now get out there and slaughter someone!"
I despair sometimes, I really do.

The first intimation of what we were in for was the final showdown in
PS/SS when Quirrell grabs young Potter instead of doing the wizardly
thing, which is "Accio Stone!"
Then in CoS Tom never dreams of zapping Harry, even though he's
got his (Harry's) wand in his hand. Follow that up with the graveyard 
scene. A small multiude of DEs are unable to nail an impervious Potter
who, in contrast, can throw them all into confusion with an unaimed
Impedimentia! Erm.. excuse me, is this right? Plus the Ministry battle,
where a bunch of half-trained kids, ambushed by the ne plus ultra of
Voldy's forces escape with just a couple of walking wounded casualties.

It's reaching the stage where one starts rooting for the underdogs, who
are obviously the DEs, so loaded down are they with handicaps. Let's
see a fair fight for a change. Zap that little scrote! You can do it!

So although it'd be a nice twist for ole Blondy to be someone he wasn't,
if you get my meaning, past experiences make it odds against.

However - another thing worth thinking about; Bill was consiidered at
risk from a werewolf bite when the biter wasn't in werewolf form. 
How very interesting. 
There is a definite transmission risk at any time, it seems.
What does this say about the ethics of DD admitting a covert w-w into
the Hogwarts school population? Tut, tut, Alby-baby. 

Alternatively, could it be a 'Flint' - or the inclusion of what wimpish film
makers label as 'mild peril' in a fruitless attempt to dredge up some
audience sympathy for someone nobody really cares about?

Kneasy  
   








From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 14 21:59:10 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:59:10 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqb0uh+lpqt@...>
Message-ID: <dqbs7e+7ulh@...>

> However - another thing worth thinking about; Bill was consiidered at
> risk from a werewolf bite when the biter wasn't in werewolf form. 
> How very interesting. 
> There is a definite transmission risk at any time, it seems.
> What does this say about the ethics of DD admitting a covert w-w into
> the Hogwarts school population? Tut, tut, Alby-baby. 
> 
> Alternatively, could it be a 'Flint' - or the inclusion of what wimpish film
> makers label as 'mild peril' in a fruitless attempt to dredge up some
> audience sympathy for someone nobody really cares about?


Pippin:
I got the impression nobody knew whether it would be contagious
because werewolves usually have no urge to bite when they're not
transformed. 

A human bite could be dangerous and disfiguring whether the biter is a
 werewolf or not. Human mouths are all full of nasty germs. But Fenrir
is unusual in *wanting* to bite people when he's not transformed. No clue
whether this is a psychological quirk or the result of some kind of 
reverse wolfsbane potion.

Pippin






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 00:14:47 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:14:47 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqb0uh+lpqt@...>
Message-ID: <dqc45n+pkln@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith"
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
Kneasy:
>...whenever there's a set-piece confrontation,
>authorial partiality, protectionism, the requirements of plot
continuation
>always seem to over-ride everyday expectations.

Talisman:
The observation that plot drives all else in the HP series has been
historically cited as an authorial flaw. In actuality, hegemony of
plot is a legitimate feature of the author's chosen genre.

Here, I wish I had managed to finish my response to potioncat
(followed on by catlady) regarding the nature of the Romance genre,
?Ela Frye's _Anatomy of Criticism_.

In my defense I'll note that it's a lot less work to say *explain
everything to me* than it is to do the explaining. A fortiori when
what is entailed is a recap of a self-entitled *anatomy,* i.e. an
encyclopedic exploration of a subject.

Add to that the standing formula that my HP posts are subject to my
having time, energy, and an actual sense of entertainment from the
project, and you can see the problem.

(Oh yes, there a lot of you out there who have a few whacks coming.
Beware the day it amuses me to hand them out.<veg>)

In fact I had finished most of the recap when catlady (who, I
believe, has read Frye, at least twice) wrote me to opine that the
HP series actually belongs to the Anatomy genre (which, in fiction,
means satire).

I decided to wrap my rebuttal into the final section of the recap
(where both Romance and Anatomy would be discussed anyway) and have,
in fact, completed that response, albeit on a legal pad, which, not
unlike Ms. Rowling, I have momentarily lost amongst the many
identical yellow pads marked with the same peculiar handwriting that
have come to populate the drawers and surfaces in my home.

I shall devote a reasonable amount of time to locating this errant
essay so that I can get the bugger posted, especially as it seems I
am periodically tempted to reiterate the need to appreciate one's
genre. It had seemed a bit arcane, but I think, in the end, it will
be a useful reference.

Naturally, it would be better for you all if you'd just read the
book.

The short answer, for catlady, is no.

I believed you raised Frye's quintessential example of a fictional
Anatomy: the Alice stories, for comparison to the HP series. On
reflection you might see that, unlike the HP series where plot is a
force majeure, the Alice stories, like all Anatomies, are
practically devoid of plot.

You fall into a rabbit hole and later find yourself out. You slip
through a mirror and then come back again. What passes for plot in
Carroll's works is the thinnest of mechanisms for moving Alice to a
weird place where she can explore his ideological victims with
revealing naivete. (You'll have to provide your own imaginary 
diacritical marks as it seems Yahoo has no use for the umlaut or the 
accent grave, and sucked the affected letters out with them when I 
first attempted to post this.)

Thereafter she simply strolls from one tableau to another where
successive social positions and personalities can be parodied. The
characters are mere mouth-pieces for the ideas being lampooned and
there is no compelling interrelation between the experiences.

The HP series certainly does contain satire, as well as tragedy and
comedy (though, notwithstanding some satiric threads, unlike the
Alice Anatomies, Rowling's humor is neither constant nor confined to
ridicule), but these are all subsumed beneath a canopy of Romance,
which, being the prevailing mode, symbolism, mythos, and genre of
the series, informs the characterization, plot, and eventual
denouement. And, of course it's all wrapped up in a mystery.

Rowling's ability to manage these elements is a testament to her
authorial prowess. It's also a nice bit of art, inasmuch as her
series is about coming successfully to grips with life, and life
itself is a romance, wrapped in a mystery, full of tragedy, comedy
and not a little irony.

Magic is a primary feature of the romantic mode. Therefore, the
inclusion of *fantastic* magical beasts, etc. is not an argument for
Anatomy over Romance.

Moreover, romantic characterization *leans toward* allegory. While
*pure* Romance calls for *idealized* characters, the trend over
literary history has been toward increased realism. Afterall, even
Gawain gets a nick in the neck.

Rowling's characters have sufficient psychological realism to
engage the reader (another evidence of her talent, IMO) but this
quality is only a movement along a continuum whereon they are still
well within the Romantic genre.

Accordingly, I find the eagerness to locate Mary Sues and Gary Stues
sorely misplaced. The characters retain the general idealization of
their respective types in service to the more palpable subtext
expected of the Romance genre.

Understanding this should better allow you to *get* what is going
on. If you stand back a bit, you should be able to see that the
characters act in service of a greater idea--more subtly than pure
allegory--but much less dissolved than novelistic realism.

A better appreciation of genre would save a lot of erroneous
criticism of the author, not to mention misreading of the text.

Conversely, the bully plot is sometimes blamed for characters
behaving *out of character,* when what is really happening is that
the reader has totally misapprehended the character.

Typically this pertains to DD. It really is mystifying how many
times readers can blame Rowling for making DD do something that
*doesn't fit* (or requires the reader to concoct elaborate
explanations) and yet never ask themselves if, instead of DD doing
something odd for the umteenth time, it might not be they,
themselves, who have got the wrong end of things.

Talisman, who was going to comment further on the SK responses, but
sees now that this will have to wait for another time. Also noting
that it's one thing to chant the term *heuristics,* it's quite
another to do the job.









From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 00:41:48 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:41:48 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqbs7e+7ulh@...>
References: <dqb0uh+lpqt@...> <dqbs7e+7ulh@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601141641g6ead9511rb6785be7be3164e1@...>

Constance Vigilance snipped:



Blondie is fighting Tonks and again is missing all the vitals but
doing heavy damage to the surroundings. Harry is trying to follow
Snape, but Blondie's blasts are slowing him down. Harry hexes
Blondie, painfully, and is able to resume chasing Amycus, Alecto and
Snape. Someone (Blondie?) is calling Harry to come back, but Harry
ignores it.

Snow:



Your first sentence here emphasizes the reason for my belief that Blondie is
a giant who has learned 'A' spell (possibly the one that ignites Hagrid's
Hut) and it's the only one he knows. Blondie is never seen actually hurting
anyone other than by his spells destructive behavior. His spells ricochet
off the walls causing them to come crashing down around them but not once,
that I noticed, did he issue a spell that did any more than damage to the
surroundings with the exception of Hagrid's Hut.



Harry hexed Blondie painfully making him howl with pain, tis true, but it
did not stop him or slow him down because he departed along with (the twins)
Amycus and Alecto. Here again, Blondie is representative of Hagrid because
it is the face of a partial giant that appears to be his Achilles heal.
Hagrid, in OOP, was being beat up by his 'lil' brother and the only real
visible signs were to Hagrid's face. Again, in HBP, when Harry sees Hagrid
after the fight with Snape, it is Hagrid's face that took a hit. It makes me
believe that (a) you can only hurt a partial giant in the face to cause
damage and (b) partial giants are not very good with a wand. This quotient
would not allow for Blondie to be pureblood giant, as the arrows of the
Centaurs hurt Grawp and we know he is a pureblood giant with no apparent
magical power.



Your last sentence, I would have to say it was Ginny who was calling to
Harry amongst others because as I said above, Blondie left with the twins:



"The man gave a howl of pain as the spell hit him in the face: He wheeled
around, staggered, and then pounded away after the brother and sister. Harry
scrambled along the corridor, ignoring the bangs issuing from behind him,
the yells of the others to comeback?" HBP pg. 599



Constance Vigilance snipped again:



So who is Blondie? JKR says that all major characters have been
introduced. He could be another giant. But I think pure giants have
no magic, else they would not be so fascinated by a magical gift
from a wizard. I think he is not a giant. Besides, he is "enormous",
not gigantic. Could he be Olympe under polyjuice? He never speaks.
Or Aberforth? The Dumbledore brothers are known to be tall.



Snow:



I liked your scenario and I still feel it's doable despite my comments. The
only issue I would have is that; if the Order were to choose someone from
their side, or win someone from Voldemort's side to their favor as a spy, I
would think it would be someone with a bit more talent with a wand. But then
again, like you said, it could be Olympe; we don't know how talented she is
with a wand.



????????????????????



Snow wrote:
>
> (2) If the castle is protected from anyone flying into the grounds
> (via Dumbledore and Harry flying into Hogwarts for the final
showdown
> on the tower), how did the Ford Anglia manage to get through the
> magical defenses in COS?

Kathy W:

We have another time that someone gets though. Charlie's friends come
to pick up Norbet and land right on the Tower. Hogwarts doesn't seem
very secure does it?



Snow:



I totally forgot about Charlie landing, of all places, the top of the
Astronomy Tower, how interesting.





Kathy W:

It could be that the magic defenses we saw in
HBP were part of the extra defenses put in place, as discussed
earlier in the book, but that would still have left it very
vulnerable before. I think the defenses were there all along and that
DD knew about the dragon and the Ford Anglia. He would be able to
adjust the magic to allow them in.



Snow:



I thought it might have been one of the extra defenses that were discussed
earlier in the book too but decided that the Order was the extra defenses
since Hogwarts had already been known to have its own spells cast so no one
could apparate etc.

I came to the same conclusion that you seem to have; Dumbledore knew what
was going on and made the proper adjustments to security.



> Snow
> (4) Why was the Bloody Baron hanging around the Astronomy tower
(like
> a lookout?) the night Harry got the Slughorn memory? Whose side is
> the Baron on, is he one of the ghosts who was interested in Harry
> being the Chosen One that Nick refused to comment on in the chapter
> Snape Victorious?

Kathy W:
It seems a bit creepy to me, that the Bloody Baron was "haunting" the
tower and DD will later be killed there.



Snow:



Yes, five chapters before the fateful scene on top the tower we find the
Baron "groaning and clanking" as it is now his favorite pastime to reside
there but why, what for?

Kathy W:

I lost the phoenix question as I was scrolling around.



Snow:



This is why I like Gmail?all responses on a thread neatly in one folder.



(3) If the Phoenix has healing powers in its tears, why didn't Fawkes
just cry on Dumbledore's wand hand that was burned by the Horcrux to
heal it?



Kathy W:

I think it was an injury that wouldn't respond to phoenix tears. Just like
in the RW
with all the wonderful things we can do, there are some diseases we
can't cure.



Snow:



Nice out, but that would mean that this injury is worse than the poison from
a Basilisk. Anything is plausible in the JKR world but a poison of venomous
proportion, to me, is equal in its strength: if a venomous fang can kill a
Horcrux but could be healed from its bite through Phoenix tears why couldn't
a Horcrux defense (bite) be healed from the tears as well? (hoping that made
sense to more than just me)









Kneasy snipped:



However - another thing worth thinking about; Bill was consiidered at
risk from a werewolf bite when the biter wasn't in werewolf form.
How very interesting.
There is a definite transmission risk at any time, it seems.
What does this say about the ethics of DD admitting a covert w-w into
the Hogwarts school population? Tut, tut, Alby-baby.

Snow:



Yes, tis true but Alby knew that lil Lupin hadn't got the taste for humans
yet that could not be satisfied once a month. Albus attempted to give Lupin
a real choice by letting him into an establishment were he would be rewarded
for good behavior and not acquire an insatiable taste for humans.













Pippin snipped:



A human bite could be dangerous and disfiguring whether the biter is a
 werewolf or not. Human mouths are all full of nasty germs. But Fenrir
is unusual in *wanting* to bite people when he's not transformed. No clue
whether this is a psychological quirk or the result of some kind of
reverse wolfsbane potion.

Snow:


Ooh, I like the reverse potion! Fenrir even appears to be taking on physical
features of the werewolf  i.e. the pointed fangs that are dripping blood.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 00:50:05 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:50:05 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dq9iio+e07q@...>
Message-ID: <dqc67t+lvlh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" <kking0731 at g...> 
wrote:
 
> (1) Did Marvolo see his daughter as a squib because she lacked the 
> ability to speak parceltongue? Is parcelmouth a magic ability for 
> anyone magical or an inherited trait only representative of the 
> Slytherin bloodline? 


Talisman:
Marvolo was just an SOB with poor self-esteem who liked to trash his 
children, including all manner of suggestions that they were not 
good enough.  Unfortunately, you can find these types on any street 
corner. 

I believe there is a reference in FBAWTFT, and elsewhere in 
Rowling's interview comments, suggesting that parceltongue, while 
rare, is not exclusively Slyth.  Nonetheless, we know where Harry 
got his.


> (2) If the castle is protected from anyone flying into the grounds 
> (via Dumbledore and Harry flying into Hogwarts for the final 
showdown 
> on the tower), how did the Ford Anglia manage to get through the 
> magical defenses in COS?

Talisman: DD explains that a great deal of extra protection has been 
added to Hogwarts between the end of OoP and start of term in HBP.
 
> 
> (3) If the Phoenix has healing powers in its tears, why didn't 
Fawkes just cry on Dumbledore's wand hand that was burned by the 
Horcrux to heal it? 

Talisman,
Got your choices, really: 1.) Phoenix tears can't cure everything; 
2.) it suited DD's purposes to be seen as having *slowed down* and 
become vulnerable; 3.) all of the above.

While we are on the subject, notice that DD wasn't calling for 
Fawkes after he drank the green goo, either.  Nope, he was calling 
for Snape. That would be the same person he credits with saving him 
from the curse that destroyed his hand.

Ah Snape, my dark Phoenix, singing his ancient healing incantations 
over the dying Malfoy.  People who underestimate him are only 
fooling themselves.
  
> (5) How would the twins even know about the `unbreakable vow' at 
>age 
> nine let alone attempt to perform it on a five-year-old Ron?  
>Where 
> did they see someone doing this at age nine that they would even 
>know 
> of `its' existence? 

Talisman: Children growing up in the magical world must be exposed 
to a great many things--if only anecdotally--that Harry and the 
reader must discover along the way.  And, to borrow from Eoin 
Colfer's terminology, the twins are *running hot* with magic.


> (6) Does anyone else see the big blonde death eater as a giant 
>with less skill with his wand than even Hagrid? Is that why the 
>blonde death eater chose to ignite Hagrid's cabin because he 
>realized it would be futile to engage stunners against a giant, 
>being one himself?  

Talisman: I see him as mainly a marker, used for artistic purposes, 
to preserve the mirrored symmetry patterns in the series.  He 
signals the action, in book 7, of another notably big blonde: 
Dudley, who will doubtless use his late-blooming magic in a battle--
quite possibly at No. 4 Privet Dr.--to Harry's benefit. I'm 
personally partial to the notion that No. 4 will burn to the ground, 
as well.

 










From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 02:02:54 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 02:02:54 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580601141641g6ead9511rb6785be7be3164e1@...>
Message-ID: <dqcage+4rnq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kathy King <kking0731 at g...> wrote:
Snow:
>I thought it might have been one of the extra defenses that were 
>discussed
>earlier in the book too but decided that the Order was the extra 
>defenses
>since Hogwarts had already been known to have its own spells cast so 
>no one
>could apparate etc.

Talisman:
Notwithstanding the fact that I think DD knows pretty much everything, 
the text reads:

*The castle's magical fortifications have been strengthened over the 
summer, we are protected in new and more powerful ways...*(168). 

New protections, both magical in nature and plural in number are 
explicitly referenced.  That doesn't fit with an interpretation that DD 
merely means that the Order is helping out, which they have also done 
in the past--both officially and unofficially.

The straight-forward answer is that new enchantments are in place. 

 






From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 02:16:08 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:16:08 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqc67t+lvlh@...>
References: <dq9iio+e07q@...> <dqc67t+lvlh@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601141816t7d70a31el8416afdd33f60aba@...>

Disclaimer:



I totally dislike thinking off the top of my head, not that I can't do it,
but you never know what you may get. Often times its blibberish so I refrain
from any immediate responses if possible, however?



Me previously:



> (3) If the Phoenix has healing powers in its tears, why didn't
Fawkes just cry on Dumbledore's wand hand that was burned by the
Horcrux to heal it?

Talisman,
Got your choices, really: 1.) Phoenix tears can't cure everything;
2.) it suited DD's purposes to be seen as having *slowed down* and
become vulnerable; 3.) all of the above.

While we are on the subject, notice that DD wasn't calling for
Fawkes after he drank the green goo, either.  Nope, he was calling
for Snape. That would be the same person he credits with saving him
from the curse that destroyed his hand.



Snow:



I noticed that as well which is why I had to question the 'all purpose'
Phoenix tears. We also know that Fawkes was at the rescue in the DOM when
push came to shove but he is not essential with all his powers (of eating an
AK) when it comes down to the Horcruxes? It simply leads me to believe that
Dumbledore is taking an alternate route this time for whatever purpose, and
there could be many:



(a)    Dumbledore needs people to believe that he is dying of old age and
doesn't have the power he once had

(b)   Dumbledore wants Snape to believe that he needs him desperately for
the job at hand

(c)    Dumbledore needs to make the forthcoming death look real so that no
one would question whether or not he may still be alive



It could go on and on as to why Dumbledore did not call Fawkes and insisted
on Snape in both scenarios. However my personal favorite is that Dumbledore
realized there is a close spy amongst them that caused Snape's loyalties to
be questioned by the deatheaters and Voldemort so Dumbledore had to use his
own demise to flush out the culprit. Dumbledore couldn't really trust anyone
but Snape to his plans. Snape was furious at Dumbledore and responded to him
at the edge of the forest that he took "too much for granted" because it
would have been a scenario that had to be played out with everyone's
cooperation; Draco, the spy, the Deatheaters? everyone in the right place at
the right time and what if Snape hadn't been able to stop Fenrir



In other words I don't think that Fawkes can't do the job?he wasn't asked to
do it. Fawkes loyalty to Dumbledore would not or could not have been defused
except by Dumbledore himself. Even if Fawkes could not have saved his hand
or his life, he would have been present as he appeared in the DOM.



Me previously:



(5) How would the twins even know about the `unbreakable vow' at
>age
> nine let alone attempt to perform it on a five-year-old Ron?
>Where
> did they see someone doing this at age nine that they would even
>know
> of `its' existence?

Talisman: Children growing up in the magical world must be exposed
to a great many things--if only anecdotally--that Harry and the
reader must discover along the way.  And, to borrow from Eoin
Colfer's terminology, the twins are *running hot* with magic.



Snow:



Not to be rude but are you kidding! I could accept that answer for the teddy
bear/spider incident, but not with a vow that has such dark overtures. There
are many things that Harry and his audience need to be provided with but not
from the mouth of babes. It simply makes me curious not educated.



Me previous:



(6) Does anyone else see the big blonde death eater as a giant
>with less skill with his wand than even Hagrid? Is that why the
>blonde death eater chose to ignite Hagrid's cabin because he
>realized it would be futile to engage stunners against a giant,
>being one himself?

Talisman: I see him as mainly a marker, used for artistic purposes,
to preserve the mirrored symmetry patterns in the series.  He
signals the action, in book 7, of another notably big blonde:
Dudley, who will doubtless use his late-blooming magic in a battle--
quite possibly at No. 4 Privet Dr.--to Harry's benefit. I'm
personally partial to the notion that No. 4 will burn to the ground,
as well.

Snow:



Now here is a twist I could live with. Something off the wall but doable?I
highly doubt it but there is room?

I would love to see Dudley, a common muggle (?) the size of a killer whale
become aware of his magical side?what a hoot? but only if he is Harry's
sidekick.



Snow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 04:02:51 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:02:51 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqcage+4rnq@...>
References: <a1ee8d580601141641g6ead9511rb6785be7be3164e1@...>
	 <dqcage+4rnq@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601142002o5b70e120o1226ca928ccd74cc@...>

On 1/14/06, Talisman <talisman22457 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kathy King <kking0731 at g ...> wrote:
> Snow:
> >I thought it might have been one of the extra defenses that were
> >discussed
> >earlier in the book too but decided that the Order was the extra
> >defenses
> >since Hogwarts had already been known to have its own spells cast so
> >no one
> >could apparate etc.
>
> Talisman:
> Notwithstanding the fact that I think DD knows pretty much everything,
> the text reads:
>
> *The castle's magical fortifications have been strengthened over the
> summer, we are protected in new and more powerful ways...*(168).
>
> New protections, both magical in nature and plural in number are
> explicitly referenced.  That doesn't fit with an interpretation that DD
> merely means that the Order is helping out, which they have also done
> in the past--both officially and unofficially.
>
> The straight-forward answer is that new enchantments are in place.
>
> Snow:



So then you feel that this is a new occurrence, as of HBP, that the air
flight security measure into Hogwarts was not in place during neither the
scene of Norbert's escape nor the flying Anglia?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 04:16:48 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:16:48 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dq9q3j+b97q@...>
Message-ID: <dqcibg+pglp@...>

Constance Vigilance wrote:
> 
> My belief is that Blondie is there as a second Dumbledore Man to 
> ensure that Snape and Malfoy get away cleanly and that Harry stays 
> safe. 
> 
> So who is Blondie? JKR says that all major characters have been 
> introduced. He could be another giant. But I think pure giants have 
> no magic, else they would not be so fascinated by a magical gift 
> from a wizard. I think he is not a giant. Besides, he is "enormous", 
> not gigantic. Could he be Olympe under polyjuice? He never speaks. 
> Or Aberforth? The Dumbledore brothers are known to be tall.
> 
> So. Any thoughts?


Kathy W.
JKR does have a way of quietly introducing characters who will be 
important later or sometimes really introducing characters who will 
just sort of slip into the background when no one is looking. Think 
Baby-head from the DoM battle. Or Theo Nott. Blondie may follow that 
path.

On the other hand, Blondie was so bad he was good. Keep in mind that 
not only did he not cause harm to any of the good guys, and did cause 
harm to bad guys, he managed to avoid getting hurt himself. I mean come 
on, can Tonks be that weak? And as CV pointed out, his wild spells 
helped the good guys. So I'm voting "Yes" to another one of DD's men. 
DD certainly has more informants than just Snape.

Yes, I know the baddies are notoriously bad at fighting. But they 
haven't been this bad! The only other one who has come close is Elder 
Nott...and I wonder about his loyalty too.

I'm voting against polyjuice. Half of the arguments I'd use against it, 
however, were overcome by Barty. But if Blondie was a good guy 
disguised with polyjuice, did he get a working Dark Mark scar? Would he 
need it? I also doubt he was a giant. Canon!Hagrid is much bigger than 
Coltrane!Hagrid and I didn't get the idea Blondie was anywhere near 
that big.

I don't think he was the one casting a Cruciatus at Harry. That was 
more likely the brother of the sibling pair. We saw him having a good 
time with it earlier.

When did JKR say she had introduced all the major characters? I 
remember something about our getting to know an Order member in book 7 
that we don't know we'd met. But I'm not sure if we'd met him before 
book 6. I'd say most list members expect that to be Aberforth. Maybe 
it's Blondie.







From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 06:39:22 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:39:22 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580601141816t7d70a31el8416afdd33f60aba@...>
Message-ID: <dqcqmq+t4a2@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kathy King <kking0731 at g...> 
wrote:
>Talisman: Children growing up in the magical world must be exposed
>to a great many things--if only anecdotally--that Harry and the
>reader must discover along the way. And, to borrow from Eoin
>Colfer's terminology, the twins are *running hot* with magic.

Snow:
>Not to be rude but are you kidding! I could accept that answer for 
the teddy
>bear/spider incident, but not with a vow that has such dark 
overtures. There
>are many things that Harry and his audience need to be provided 
with but not
>from the mouth of babes. It simply makes me curious not educated.


Talisman:
 Don't worry about being rude, I don't mind it nearly as much as I 
mind people who turn into self-righteous wet hens when I return the 
favor.

 I am not kidding, at all, to say that, though we may well find a 
Book 7 corollary to Snape's HBP vow, I do NOT expect it to involve 
the ~nine-year-old-twins, even to the extent of a flashback episode 
where they walk in to find Arthur and Molly vowing away, in 
flagrante delicto.  

They had older siblings coming home from Hogwarts with information 
both academic and social; they could overhear their parent?fs 
conversations, including tales Arthur brought home from the 
Ministry; they could  listen to wizard news reports; read wizard 
novels; read the Daily Prophet, etc.

Rowling needed a way to introduce the information to Harry, and this 
is the avenue she chose.  IMO she expects readers to find it 
plausible precisely because of the twin?fs track record.

You, of course, are perfectly free to go on imagining dire scenarios 
in which the tender-aged twins are taught how to elicit unbreakable 
vows, but I expect such efforts to come to naught.  

>Talisman,
>Got your choices, really: 1.) Phoenix tears can't cure everything;
>2.) it suited DD's purposes to be seen as having *slowed down* and
>become vulnerable; 3.) all of the above.
>While we are on the subject, notice that DD wasn't calling for
>Fawkes after he drank the green goo, either. Nope, he was calling
>for Snape. That would be the same person he credits with saving him
>from the curse that destroyed his hand.

Snow:
>I noticed that as well which is why I had to question the 'all 
purpose'
>Phoenix tears. 

Talisman: I?fm not sure that Phoenix tears were ever established as 
*all purpose* in the sense that they could cure anything and 
everything.  If that were the case you?fd think they would just have 
a tank of them at St. Mungo?fs.  Wouldn?ft have had to fiddle around 
with Arthur?fs experimental stitches, etc.   Speaking of which, 
surely, DD would ask Fawkes to squeeze a few out for an Order 
member, wounded in the line of duty.

I have no doubt that Fawkes was dispatched to the CoS at DD?fs 
orders, and that it was no matter of happenchance that Fawkes was 
specially suited for the job of protecting Harry from the Basilisk.  

I?fm sure there are any number of other ailments he can cure, as 
well.

On the other hand, I don?ft think that Fawkes is the answer to all 
wizarding health problems.


Snow:
We also know that Fawkes was at the rescue in the DOM when
>push came to shove but he is not essential with all his powers (of 
eating an
>AK) when it comes down to the Horcruxes? 

Talisman: (In a terribly insincere manner) Well, I suppose Fawkes 
could try to eat the Hxes, and then someone could AK him... `course 
some of the artifacts might be harder to swallow than others. : P 
Then too, who would really want to AK Fawkes? He?fd have to fly 
around the DE?fs till he instigated an attack. All very tiresome.


Snow:
>It simply leads me to believe that Dumbledore is taking an 
alternate route this time for >whatever purpose, and there could be 
many:

Talisman: 
Phoenix tears have healing properties, and Fawkes can certainly take 
a lethal hit and come back, but that?fs a different proposition than 
saying that he can cure the effects of any curse that LV may have 
used to protect his Hxes.  Whether Fawkes could destroy the Hxes 
requires more information on exactly how that is done--something we 
are unlikely to find out before Book 7, as the SK business is still 
in the lead over at the FAQ poll.  

Let?fs face it, if he could simply have pecked a hole in the Diary, 
why didn?ft he do it straight away in CoS, and save Harry all the 
bother?   

Well of course the Chamber action was DD?fs little learning 
experience for Harry--as is the whole Hx project--but I still don?et 
think Fawkes is the easy answer to every problem involving illness 
or evil. 

Snow:
>(a) Dumbledore needs people to believe that he is dying of old age 
and
>doesn't have the power he once had

Talisman: It certainly seems that DD wanted the idea of his waning 
power to be noised around.  Snape made a point of including it in 
his misinformation session with Bella.

Snow:
>(b) Dumbledore wants Snape to believe that he needs him desperately 
for
>the job at hand

Talisman: DD does need Snape desperately for the job at hand.  I 
don?ft think Snape is at all unaware of this fact.  Moreover, if 
phoenix tears could have cured the hand, I?fm certain Snape would 
have been aware of that, too.  The idea that DD is patronizing Snape 
in order to make him feel more talented and useful than he really 
is, is a pretty blatant misread, if you ask me.

It?fs about as bad as the recent assertion that Snape would get his 
comeuppance if only Hermione (or perhaps the  reader, in their own 
fantasy) could argue back in class, which rates as probably the 
worst reading of character, to date. 

In classroom competition, the mere margin notes of the 16-year-old 
Snape ran circles around Hermione, via a proxy. Don?ft doubt the man.

If you missed all the evidence that Snape is a truly powerful healer-
-and we know how prowess in many subject areas is necessary to be a 
great healer, thanks to OoP-- you?fll be in for a treat when  you 
thoughtfully reread HBP.

P.S. Miserable DE gits probably don?ft spend a lot of time learning 
ancient healing charms.

Snow:
>(c) Dumbledore needs to make the forthcoming death look real so 
that no
>one would question whether or not he may still be alive.

Talisman: Sure. Anyone who considers the possibility of Alive!DD has 
to think this is part of the mix. This relates back to why DD would 
want to display his *decline.*  


Snow:
>It could go on and on as to why Dumbledore did not call Fawkes and 
insisted
>on Snape in both scenarios.

Talisman: Yeah, like Snape is the better choice.

Snow: 
>However my personal favorite is that Dumbledore
>realized there is a close spy amongst them that caused Snape's 
loyalties to
>be questioned by the deatheaters and Voldemort so Dumbledore had to 
use his
>own demise to flush out the culprit.

Talisman: It?fs not at all clear to me what you mean.  That LV and 
the DE?fs questioned Snape?fs loyalties is a matter of canon.  LV 
may have accepted Snape?fs explanations, but certainly he had his 
reservations, ergo Wormtail on the premises *to assist* Snape in 
unspecified ways, 24 / 7.  Bella makes it pretty clear that she?fs 
not buying Snape?fs story, no doubt there are others in that camp.  

This need to improve his credibility is very much why Snape went in 
for the drama of the unbreakable vow.  And, Snape?fs ability to hold 
LV?fs trust and to move with impunity in the DE world during 
upcoming events is a great part of why DD felt it necessary to have 
Snape AK him in front of  DE witnesses.  Of course, it?fs also part 
of manipulating Harry, so he had to witness it, too. 

Apart from Snape?fs role in the matter, merely the belief that  DD 
is *out of the way* will induce LV & Co. to act boldly--bringing 
about their own downfall, just as DD?fs need to go on the lam led to 
Fudge?fs sorrow in Book 5.

On the other hand, I don?ft see your evidence that there is a new 
traitor in the Order.  Haven?ft we done that one already?


Snow:
> Dumbledore couldn't really trust anyone but Snape to his plans. 

Talisman: DD generally works on a need-to-know basis.  It?fs the 
prudent thing to do in the world of espionage.  That doesn?ft 
signal  Wormtail redux.  It?fs just that loose lips happen, not to 
mention Legillimens, veritaserum, torture, people listening at 
keyholes, etc.  Moreover, not everyone is as good an actor as 
Snape.  Need some real tears at the funeral.

On the other hand, someone else may know.

Snow:
Snape was furious at Dumbledore and responded to him
>at the edge of the forest that he took "too much for granted" 
because it
>would have been a scenario that had to be played out with everyone's
>cooperation; Draco, the spy, the Deatheaters?Eeveryone in the right 
place at
>the right time and what if Snape hadn't been able to stop Fenrir

Talisman: Snape definitely didn?ft savor playing the *kill DD* 
card.  I?fm not comfortable with the term *everyone?fs cooperation,* 
the parties you list were managed, they were not cooperating in the 
plan, per se.  Draco was expected, it was his assignment; A DE death 
squad to witness things was required, and expected; Snape doubtless 
had to arrive at just the *right* time; I reserve judgment on 
whether Fenrir was specifically necessary to the plan.  (Though on a 
meta level, I?fm sure we needed the introduction)


Snow:
>In other words I don't think that Fawkes can't do the job?Ee wasn't 
asked to
>do it. Fawkes loyalty to Dumbledore would not or could not have 
been defused
>except by Dumbledore himself. Even if Fawkes could not have saved 
his hand
>or his life, he would have been present as he appeared in the DOM.

Talisman: I?fll agree with you this far, whether or not Fawkes could 
have healed DD?fs hand, he certainly could have been present on the 
tower to block Snape?fs AK--if DD had wanted that to happen.  It?fs 
not clear whether Fawkes needs to be summoned, or generally knows 
what?fs going on.  Either way, there was plenty of time for DD to 
summon him as they raced back to the Dark Mark.  Indeed, DD managed 
to work the counter-incantation so he clearly had enough juice in 
him to call his familiar.

The implication is that  DD did not want Fawkes?fs help, on his own 
behalf or anyone else?fs.   That is because, per usual, DD had the 
situation in hand, albeit a black and shriveled one.  What happened 
was what was supposed to happen. D?faccord.


>Talisman:[re Big blondie] I see him as mainly a marker, used for 
artistic purposes,
>to preserve the mirrored symmetry patterns in the series. He
>signals the action, in book 7, of another notably big blonde:
>Dudley, who will doubtless use his late-blooming magic in a battle--
>quite possibly at No. 4 Privet Dr.--to Harry's benefit. I'm
>personally partial to the notion that No. 4 will burn to the ground,
>as well.
>Snow:
>Now here is a twist I could live with. Something off the wall but 
doable?E
>highly doubt it but there is room?Ebr> 
>I would love to see Dudley, a common muggle (?) the size of a 
killer whale
>become aware of his magical side?Ehat a hoot?Ebut only if he is 
Harry's
>sidekick.

Talisman:
I?fm not at all sure they?fll ride off into the sunset together, but 
the signs are that Dudley will fight on Harry?fs side, for once.

Even if you don?ft understand the patterns in the plot structure, we 
know JKR has left  Dudley as the one Dursley with hope of 
redemption; we know that *someone* is a magical *late-bloomer;* and 
we can see how events in OoP, not to mention DD?fs comments in HBP, 
can be working in Dudley?fs messed-up little brain to convince him 
he?fs been a bit of a shit all his life. 
 
Big D has known for some time that he is magic. He?fs seen the 
symptoms before, through young Harry's experiences at home.   Who 
knows, maybe he even got a late-bloomer invite to Hogwarts.  In Book 
7 it will go from being his worst secret to a start at claiming his 
own personhood, when he uses it productively, in a desperate 
moment.  

As always, I expect to see Vernon and Petunia?fs blasted husks 
steaming on the ruble when the smoke clears.  A nice fresh start for 
our Dudders, eh?

Talisman









From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 06:40:02 2006
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:40:02 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580601141641g6ead9511rb6785be7be3164e1@...>
Message-ID: <dqcqo2+8sei@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kathy King <kking0731 at g...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> 
>
> 
> Pippin snipped:
> 
> 
> 
> A human bite could be dangerous and disfiguring whether the biter 
is a
>  werewolf or not. Human mouths are all full of nasty germs. But 
Fenrir
> is unusual in *wanting* to bite people when he's not transformed. 
No clue
> whether this is a psychological quirk or the result of some kind of
> reverse wolfsbane potion.
> 
> Snow:
> 
> 
> Ooh, I like the reverse potion! Fenrir even appears to be taking on 
physical
> features of the werewolf  i.e. the pointed fangs that are dripping 
blood.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

This makes me wonder if there is a Dr. 90210 in "Wizard World.  You 
could get your fangs done or have hair added if you like being a 
wolf.  You can get the fangs flattened and the hair removed if you 
want to hide yourself better.

Personally, I would use some of my magical power to make it possible 
for me to eat as much as I want and never gain a pound!

Randy







From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 07:13:39 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:13:39 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580601142002o5b70e120o1226ca928ccd74cc@...>
Message-ID: <dqcsn3+e0mj@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kathy King <kking0731 at g...> wrote:

So then you feel that this is a new occurrence, as of HBP, that the air
flight security measure into Hogwarts was not in place during neither
the scene of Norbert's escape nor the flying Anglia?

Talisman: Yep.  But don't let that discourage you.  I'm quite sure DD 
knew what was going on in those books, too.

DD knew what was going on in Book four, but allowed LV's eagle owl to 
reach Fake!Moody, ordering him to locate and kill his father.

I'm sure DD could have kept it out, if he'd wanted to.

On the other hand, one of the new magical fortifications--preventing 
entrance by air--insured that Draco needed his vanishing cabinet plan 
to get DE's into the school.  

I expect Snape told LV about the new enchantments as soon as they were 
in place, as part of the selective information he shares to please the 
Dark Lord.

The vanishing cabinet plan slowed things down and allowed DD to get 
everything lined up while monitoring Draco's progress. (Convenient that 
the cabinet in Hogwarts was broken.  Too bad the RoR didn't provide him 
with a working model.)

DD absolutely knew the attack was coming the night he took Harry to the 
Hx cave.  

One thing you can say about DD, his sense of timing is impeccable. 






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 10:01:18 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:01:18 -0000
Subject: Plot and Expectations (was: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqb0uh+lpqt@...>
Message-ID: <dqd6he+ed6i@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Kneasy:
>The first intimation of what we were in for was the final showdown 
>in PS/SS when Quirrell grabs young Potter instead of doing the 
>wizardly thing, which is "Accio Stone!"

Talisman:
Now this has always interested me.  But Book 4 has an even worse 
example.  Harry does lots of extra work on summoning charms in order 
to summon his broom--all the way from the castle to the dragon arena-
-for the first task.  Yet by the time he is preparing for the second 
task he can?ft seem to recall this handy skill.  He can?ft manage to 
Accio the MM, which has fluttered out of reach, as he sits trapped 
in the trick stair.  

Even if you want to believe JKR overlooked Accios in SS, she surely 
is aware of them in Book 4.  It's the Accio Book. Indeed, in the 
very scene where Harry, the accomplished summoner, can't seem to 
think of doing one, the bad guy, Fake!Moody, is all over it.

Rowling didn?ft have to build Accios into the first task if she 
wanted Harry to be sans skill in the stairway scene.  If the 
champions were allowed to bring assistance to the second task (e.g. 
gillyweed) there is no reason to say *wands only* for the first task-
-except that you want to force the summoning charm.  

Or, she could have made sure Harry didn't have his wand during this 
scene.  He could have dropped that, too.  It could have rolled 
behind the folds of the pulled tapestry and caused no other changes 
in the scene--except that Harry wouldn't fail to use an Accio out of 
sheer stupidity.

Instead she has him waggle his wand right at the thing (you should 
see what I have written in the margin), tryin to erase it, but a 
simple  *Accio* can't trip ever-so-lightly from his lips.  

She certainly didn't have to remind us of Harry's failure, within 
the scene, by having F!M do the Accio.  She could have arranged 
things so that Moody was closest to the MM.  Snape could express an 
interest, but Moody could just reach over and pick it up.  He'd 
still ask Harry about it after chasing  Snape and Filch back to bed, 
etc. etc.  

But no, she has to get us screaming: *Accio the damn thing, Harry!
*   Then, after refusing to allow the bulb to go on in his bubble-
soaked little brain, she gets Snape crawling all over the map so 
that the only way Moody can beat him to it is...by Accio.  

She is rubbing our noses in it. It's intentional, not a plot hole.  
This works with Q's failure to Accio and fits quite nicely into one 
of my maniacal little theories.  But since I don't want to explain 
it, I'll just say: It's not an oversight.

Kneasy:
>Then in CoS Tom never dreams of zapping Harry, even though he's
>got his (Harry's) wand in his hand. 

Talisman:
Oh, give him a break.  Poor little psychopath has been locked up 
with no victims for 50 years.  He just wants a smidge of sadistic 
playtime.  You would, too.


Kneasy:
Follow that up with the graveyard scene. A small multiude of DEs are 
unable to nail an impervious Potter who, in contrast, can throw them 
all into confusion with an unaimed
>Impedimentia! Erm.. excuse me, is this right?

Talisman:
Now, now. The DE?fs were confused before Harry ever started 
zapping.  The reunion with the Dark Lord was enough to twitter pate 
anyone.  Then there was all that golden web / floating through the 
air business, not to mention the sight of the DL losing the wand 
wrestling-match to a punk kid.  

Plus, phoenix song is known to have a deleterious effect on the less-
than-pure, and there had been a lot of that going on.  They also had 
to wait till they were given the order to attack, and who knows what 
the shadowy shades were up to after Harry took off.

Yeah, okay. Harry got off a lucky shot.  If there is a mob of people 
chasing right behind you, shoot backwards and you're bound to hit 
someone. 

Luck and special helpers, that's the ticket.

Kneasy:
 Plus the Ministry battle,
>where a bunch of half-trained kids, ambushed by the ne plus ultra of
>Voldy's forces escape with just a couple of walking wounded 
casualties.

Talisman:

Here, we'll just have to believe that, all the trash talk aside, the 
orders were to refrain from lethal force.   Lucius does say *Hand 
over the prophecy and no one need get hurt* (782). 

Much is made, in Book 5, of LV?fs desire to keep a low profile.  He 
is still putting his army together and it's a good deal easier to 
get things done when the WW isn't up in arms against you.  

Let's say the plan was to get the orb from Harry, and then merely 
Obliviate the kiddies and send them back to school.  Dumped, a bit 
shy on memory, perhaps with a few well placed bottles of Fire 
Whiskey, clothes all mussed up, just inside Hogwarts grounds, 
shortly before dawn.  Let `em explain that.  

Harry was probably reserved for special treatment.  LV?fs got that 
whole I-need-to-prove-I'm-stronger issue. How would it look if 
Lucius could cream the brat when LV couldn't?  Might start people 
whispering.  

Moreover, Nagini was a last ditch Hx. It would be so satisfying to 
make one out of the Potter brat.  Maybe we could recycle the orb and 
put it back on the shelf.  Let the Ministry guard it.  Gotta love 
the irony.

So, maybe the plan included taking Harry prisoner.  Or not.  Maybe 
the DL preferred to hear the Prophecy before messing with HP any 
more, at all.

In any event, the death / disappearance, en masse, of six school 
children: including the famous Harry Potter, a couple of Arthur 
Weasley's kids,  Grandma Longbottom's remnant, and the Quibbler 
editor's only child, would not likely pass without comment.  Sure 
would sound like old times.  People might start listening to DD.

Of course you always have the over-eager ones, like Dolohov, who 
can't help going for the kill.  Too bad he wasn't any good at 
unspoken curses.  At least he tried.












From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 16:03:15 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:03:15 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqbs7e+7ulh@...>
Message-ID: <dqdro3+bc0t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
>
> > However - another thing worth thinking about; Bill was consiidered at
> > risk from a werewolf bite when the biter wasn't in werewolf form. 
> > How very interesting. 
> > There is a definite transmission risk at any time, it seems.
> > What does this say about the ethics of DD admitting a covert w-w into
> > the Hogwarts school population? Tut, tut, Alby-baby. 
> > 
> > Alternatively, could it be a 'Flint' - or the inclusion of what wimpish film
> > makers label as 'mild peril' in a fruitless attempt to dredge up some
> > audience sympathy for someone nobody really cares about?
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> I got the impression nobody knew whether it would be contagious
> because werewolves usually have no urge to bite when they're not
> transformed. 
> 

Yet they are worried - about 'contamination' and possible 'behavioural 
changes'. And a behavioural change does happen; he develops a great liking
for very rare steaks. The implication is that there is contamination, though
minor.

OK. A bit of nit-picking. Partly as a reader who does't like special pleading
from authors, partly ex-professional. 
Ignore this bit if you get bored easily.
Dunno about you, but I've never come across partial were-wolf infections,
or partial or full natural resistance to such infections before. It's an either/or,
yes/no type of thing. Get bit and it's hairy pelt time for you, my son. Can 
anyone point to a contrary example? 

Reverting to my previous existence as a medical microbiologist/virologist 
there's no obvious reason why transmission can't occur while in human form 
- the full-blown disease state may not be being fully expressed, but the individual
is still loaded to the gun'nuls with the infective agent, albeit in the quiescient
state. To get the more-or-less instantaneous full body change we see in PoA
all tissues would have to carry the morphing agent, therefore any transfer of
tissue or fluid and the w-w factor, active or passive, gets passed on. If it's
passive - just adding a full moon will fix that state of affairs and get 'em up 
and running in the new victim soon enough - all that's needed is a means of
transfer - an inclination to bite - or an altruistic desire to help his fellow
man by donating organs for transplant after finally succumbing to canine
distemper would do it. Maybe that's why they don't seem to encourage such
practices in the WW. 

The closest RL parallel I can think of (recurring infective disease with 
asymptomatic periods - not 'silent syph', that's a natural progression of the 
infection) is recrudescent typhus, where even when asymptomatic the patient
is infective and lice can pass on the disease - oh, and not forgetting Herpes, a
possibly even closer paradigm, what with sunlight sometimes being the trigger
for reactivation. 

We really do need a 'Handbook of Ailments found in Everyday Fantasy' to
help keep authors honest. Volunteers?

Of course, what we haven't been told is if there's been a full moon since
Bill was bitten - so there's still a chance that he could become a playmate
for Remus.
 
Kneasy
  







From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 16:39:25 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:39:25 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd]Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
References: <dqcqmq+t4a2@...>
Message-ID: <01bd01c619f2$3f35ac60$6801a8c0@...>

Talisman:
>I?fm not at all sure they?fll ride off into the sunset together, but 
>the signs are that Dudley will fight on Harry?fs side, for once.

>Even if you don?ft understand the patterns in the plot structure, we 
>know JKR has left  Dudley as the one Dursley with hope of 
>redemption; we know that *someone* is a magical *late-bloomer;* and 
>we can see how events in OoP, not to mention DD?fs comments in HBP, 
>can be working in Dudley?fs messed-up little brain to convince him 
>he?fs been a bit of a shit all his life. 
 
<snipped>

Rebecca:

Maybe, maybe not.  If you're a believer of JKR's interview answers, then here's one for you from 2004:

"Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye?

No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that he is definitely a character without much back story. He is just Dudley. The next book, Half Blood Prince, is the least that you see of the Dursleys. You see them quite briefly. You see them a bit more in the final book, but you don't get a lot of Dudley in book six-very few lines. I am sorry if there are Dudley fans out there, but I think you need to look at your priorities if it is Dudley that you are looking forward to. [Laughter]."

She makes references in other interviews that there's "stuff coming with the Dursleys that people might not expect" (2000) and that we'll find out what The Big D saw in his encounter with the dementors (2004).  

Making Dudley redemptive and somewhat magical "late in life" just doesn't jive for me - how do you make a character depicted as so shallow twist a 180 suddenly and do the "right thing?" Just because he's seen some dementors? Couple that with DD's observation in HBP:

"The best that can be said is that he has at least escaped the appalling damage you have inflicted upon the unfortunate boy sitting between you."



Dudley, IMO, is far more apt to use that statement as leverage for his own means with his parents, rather than a catalyst for a change of heart.


Rebecca








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 17:12:33 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:12:33 -0000
Subject: [the_old_crowd]Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
In-Reply-To: <01bd01c619f2$3f35ac60$6801a8c0@...>
Message-ID: <dqdvq1+pkg5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca Bowen" <dontask2much at y...> wrote:
> 
> Maybe, maybe not.  If you're a believer of JKR's interview answers, then here's one for 
you from 2004:
> 
> "Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye?
> 
> No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that he is definitely a 
character without much back story. He is just Dudley. The next book, Half Blood Prince, is 
the least that you see of the Dursleys. You see them quite briefly. You see them a bit more 
in the final book, but you don't get a lot of Dudley in book six-very few lines. I am sorry if 
there are Dudley fans out there, but I think you need to look at your priorities if it is 
Dudley that you are looking forward to. [Laughter]."
> 


OK.
So the late bloomer ain't Petunia or Dudders.

Who's left?
The squibs - Filch or Figg. 
Place your bets...

Kneasy






From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 17:21:32 2006
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:21:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqdro3+bc0t@...>
Message-ID: <20060115172132.22532.qmail@...>



--- Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at ...>
wrote:

snip snip
 
> > Pippin:
> > I got the impression nobody knew whether it would
> be contagious
> > because werewolves usually have no urge to bite
> when they're not
> > transformed. 
> > 
> 
> Yet they are worried - about 'contamination' and
> possible 'behavioural 
> changes'. And a behavioural change does happen; he
> develops a great liking
> for very rare steaks. The implication is that there
> is contamination, though
> minor.
> 
> OK. A bit of nit-picking. Partly as a reader who
> does't like special pleading
> from authors, partly ex-professional. 
> Ignore this bit if you get bored easily.
> Dunno about you, but I've never come across partial
> were-wolf infections,
> or partial or full natural resistance to such
> infections before. It's an either/or,
> yes/no type of thing. Get bit and it's hairy pelt
> time for you, my son. Can 
> anyone point to a contrary example? 
> 
> Reverting to my previous existence as a medical
> microbiologist/virologist 
> there's no obvious reason why transmission can't
> occur while in human form 
> - the full-blown disease state may not be being
> fully expressed, but the individual
> is still loaded to the gun'nuls with the infective
> agent, albeit in the quiescient
> state. To get the more-or-less instantaneous full
> body change we see in PoA
> all tissues would have to carry the morphing agent,
> therefore any transfer of
> tissue or fluid and the w-w factor, active or
> passive, gets passed on. If it's
> passive - just adding a full moon will fix that
> state of affairs and get 'em up 
> and running in the new victim soon enough - all
> that's needed is a means of
> transfer - an inclination to bite - or an altruistic
> desire to help his fellow
> man by donating organs for transplant after finally
> succumbing to canine
> distemper would do it. Maybe that's why they don't
> seem to encourage such
> practices in the WW. 

snip snip
.
>  
> Kneasy
>   



Perhaps the infection of Bill allows a natural
immunity to develop or create a vaccine that will
eventually allow Lupin to have a normal life for once.
 That could be the purpose for the whole Fenrir bites
people all the time plot.

I know alot of you hate happy endings, so you may not
like that scenario.

Randy


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 20:58:02 2006
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:58:02 -0000
Subject: J+L are dead / Snow's questions / Dr 90210
Message-ID: <dqed0q+hk5r@...>

Talisman wrote a fine essay in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3723 and I feel
guilty about not having any comment on it.

Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3713 :

<< Mind you, being sneaky, if J&L hadn't appeared as play-back ghosts
in the graveyard, then I'd be theorising that they're not dead after
all and that Peter is the key to everything. >>

PoA. Sirius. "I set out for your parents' house straight away. And
when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies... I realized what
Peter must've done... what I'd done...." The deaths are known because
the bodies were found.

Snow wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3718 :

<< (2) If the castle is protected from anyone flying into the grounds
(via Dumbledore and Harry flying into Hogwarts for the final showdown
on the tower), how did the Ford Anglia manage to get through the
magical defenses in COS? >>

I was going to suggest that it was protected against broomsticks and
flying carpets, not flying cars or motorcycles, until a post reminded
me of Charlie's friends fetching Norbert on broomsticks. So I have to
retreat to suggesting that Hogwart's aerial walls depend on checking
the motives of the intruders: "Do they intend to harm Hogwarts?".

<< (3) If the Phoenix has healing powers in its tears, why didn't
Fawkes just cry on Dumbledore's wand hand that was burned by the
Horcrux to heal it? >>

JKR has decreed that in the Potterverse, no magic can reverse death.
Thus, not even Phoenix tears can reverse death. That's a good argument
for the suggestion made on TOL that DUmbledore's hand is DEAD and
Snape used his 'stopper death' ability mentioned in his opening speech
to keep DEATH from spreading further through DD's body.

<< (4) Why was the Bloody Baron hanging around the Astronomy tower
(like a lookout?) the night Harry got the Slughorn memory? Whose side
is the Baron on, is he one of the ghosts who was interested in Harry
being the Chosen One that Nick refused to comment on in the chapter
Snape Victorious? >>

I don't know, but I still yearn to know why Peeves, who is scared of
no one else, is scared of the Bloody Baron. What does the Bloody Baron
have that frightens Peeves?

<< (5) How would the twins even know about the `unbreakable vow' at
age nine let alone attempt to perform it on a five-year-old Ron? Where
did they see someone doing this at age nine that they would even know
of `its' existence? >>

My childhood recollection is that smart kids in a house with books
read all the books, even if they don't understand them. My Muggle
memories instead hearing some adult expressing regret that in his
childhood, he had climbed to the top shelf of the bookcase to get the
books his parents had put out of his reach, especially his father (a
police officer)'s photographically illustrated textbook on determining
how long a corpse had been dead.

<< (6) Does anyone else see the big blonde death eater as a giant with
less skill with his wand than even Hagrid? Is that why the blonde
death eater chose to ignite Hagrid's cabin because he realized it
would be futile to engage stunners against a giant, being one
himself? >>

No. Not only are full-blood giants twenty feet tall, which surely
Rowling have described not merely as 'big', but she specified that
"Unlike Hagrid, who simply looked like an oversized human, Grawp
looked strangely misshapen. What Harry had taken to be a vast mossy
boulder to the left of the great earthen mound he now recognised as
Grawp's head. It was much larger in proportion to the body than a
human head, and was almost perfectly round and covered with tightly
curling, close-growing hair the colour of bracken. The rim of a single
large, fleshy ear was visible on top of the head, which seemed to sit,
rather like Uncle Vernon's, directly upon the shoulders with little or
no neck in between." (from the OoP Chapter titled "Grawp") 

Snow wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3727 :

<< I could accept that answer for the teddy bear/spider incident, >>

Surely the teddy bear/spider incident was an act of childhood
unintended magic, like Harry finding himself suddenly on the roof when
having been pursued by bullies, or turning his teacher's wig blue. As
in Rowling's response to the Rumor that "Harry is a Metamorphmagus": 
<< Anyway: before they have received training, very young witches and
wizards are prone to unstable surges of power, often accidentally
producing effects that they may have to train for a few years to be
able to reproduce deliberately. Their magical ability is bottled up
for weeks at a time and then, when made angry or frightened, it simply
explodes out of them, sometimes (as in the case of the vanishing glass
in the chapter of the same name, 'Philosopher's Stone) causing at
least as much inconvenience to themselves as others. >>

Randy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3731 :

<< Personally, I would use some of my magical power to make it
possible for me to eat as much as I want and never gain a pound! >>

Wouldn't we all! But Molly Weasley, Professor Sprout, and Madam M
alkin haven't done it to themselves with their own magic, which 
surely Molly and Pomona have plenty of, and they haven't had it done
by a professional, which surely Malkin can afford.






From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 22:07:34 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:07:34 -0000
Subject: Protection (wasRe: J+L are dead / Snow's questions / Dr 90210
In-Reply-To: <dqed0q+hk5r@...>
Message-ID: <dqeh36+a4b9@...>


>Catlady 
> I was going to suggest that it was protected against broomsticks and
> flying carpets, not flying cars or motorcycles, until a post reminded
> me of Charlie's friends fetching Norbert on broomsticks. So I have to
> retreat to suggesting that Hogwart's aerial walls depend on checking
> the motives of the intruders: "Do they intend to harm Hogwarts?".


Kathy W:
Oh, good someone else thought of that too. But if motives were enough, 
DD wouldn't have needed to say all those spells as he and Harry flew 
into the castle. In fact, I would have thought Hogwarts would recognise 
DD. Unless of course, all his muttering of spells was for some other 
purpose.






From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 22:47:03 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:47:03 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd]Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
References: <dqdvq1+pkg5@...>
Message-ID: <032201c61a25$9b1e1570$6801a8c0@...>

Kneasy said:

>OK.
>So the late bloomer ain't Petunia or Dudders.

>Who's left?
>The squibs - Filch or Figg.
>Place your bets...

Rebecca now:

Hmph. Found these on JKR's site:

"Squibs are rare; magic is a dominant and resilient gene."

One way to interpret this is to surmise that genetically, Squibs wouldn't 
have the genetic ability to perform magic.  And then there's this in the 
same snippet regarding Filch and Figg:

"Neither of these characters can perform magic (Filch's Kwikspell course 
never worked), but they still function within the wizarding world because 
they have access to certain magical objects and creatures that can help 
them."

Certain magical objects....certainly a wand could be called that. Don't 
recall the mention of either of them having a wand, but that's probably 
irrelevant? Could pick up another wizard's wand, I suppose....

The whole hubbub behind the character who will manage to perform magic late 
in life comes from a 1999 Barnes and Noble Chat with JKR where she was asked 
if student or adult would be a "late bloomer" in the magical sense :

"No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a 
person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in 
desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very 
rare in the world I am writing about."

Have we perhaps seen this character's magic already?  Or perhaps JKR tossed 
the concept in her writing of the books as it didn't "fit"?  1999 is rather 
a bit ago...I'd also submit that Madame "I See The Future Thru My Alcoholic 
Haze" Trelawney might be a candidate, unless someone has seen in the books 
where she has performed some kind of magic with a wand...

Rebecca

Rebecca 





From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 23:26:14 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:26:14 -0000
Subject: [the_old_crowd]Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
In-Reply-To: <032201c61a25$9b1e1570$6801a8c0@...>
Message-ID: <dqelmm+n42r@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca Bowen" 
<dontask2much at y...> wrote:
>snip of further discussion<

Talisman:
Came to post my response to your rebuttal, and see that you've
given more thought to the late-bloomer business.

The following response covers my interpretation of that--which I
don't find to be a throw away comment. It seems to have been
important to her to make the exception.
(Sorry for the weird spacing, I was indenting to set off quotes, for
reading ease, and Yahoo has scrambled it all. I'll try to fix it
here in preview mode--but who knows how it will come out.)

Rebbeca:
>Maybe, maybe not. If you're a believer of JKR's interview answers,
then here's
>one for you from 2004: >snip wysiwyg comments<

Talisman:
Thanks, Rebecca, I've already seen it. Let's just say that I read
all of Rowling's interviews, with interest. *Believer* might be too
strong a word. However, I do believe she works very hard to cover
her tracks. ::cough::Regulus::cough::

You may also recall her explanation, when cornered, about the whole
*Remember my last* nonsense:

*It has been suggested that I am wrong in saying that
Dumbledore's last letter was the
one he left on the doorstep with baby Harry, and that he has
sent a letter since then
concerning Harry's illegal flight to school. However, both
Dumbledore and I differentiate between letters sent to the
Dursleys as a couple, and messages directed to
Petunia ALONE. And that's my final word on the subject - though
I doubt it will be yours :)*


Readers may be recalling other favorite equivocations, but these
will suffice to make the point. In that light, let us begin...

It's nice that you acknowledged some of her other interview
statements, but I think you may have been too dismissive. We'll
take a closer look at those, and others.

Let's start with the late-bloomer business.

Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students
in the school who come into their magic potential as adults,
rather than as children?

No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows
itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a
character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do
magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world
I am writing about.
Barnes and Noble interview, March 19, 1999

Let's review:
1. No one comes into their magical potential after they have reached
adulthood.
2. Magic people almost always show some sign before age 11.
3. Someone older than 11 but not yet an adult will show their first
sign of magic--in desperate circumstances--before the series is
finished.

Not a great many candidates, really. What, Piers Polekiss rises to
the moment?

There are no heretofore non-magical teenagers in the Hogwarts
milieu, we don't know any of the neighbors at 12 GP, so that leaves
the Privet Drive crowd.

We also know, or should, that a battle is slated for chez Dursley,
preferably before July 31st, which will provide the requisite dire
circumstances.

Considering the choices in the Privet Drive neighborhood, I think
you have to find it much less wrenching to have Dudley cut a spark,
than to have the sudden illumination of a background gang member.

>Kneasy:
>OK. So the late bloomer ain't Petunia or Dudders. Who's left?
>The squibs - Filch or Figg. Place your bets...

Talisman: Unless you read the late bloomer comment as *No,...I
mean...yes,* the adults are out. And that's just it, who is left?

Rebecca finds the WYSIWYG statement controlling. That is to say,
she reads it to say that Dudley is not magic now--and never will
be.

She also can't accept the idea of a Dudley redemption--choosing to
characterize any such event as a *180* (of course we have to careful
not to stumble into the argumentative fallacy asserting that no
change can occur except the most extreme change.)

Yet Rowling has said:
'You should keep an eye on Dudley. It?fs probably too late for
Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon. I feel sorry for Dudley. I might
joke about him, but I feel truly sorry for him because I see
him as just as abused as Harry.
Garcia, Frank. "Harry Pottermania" Cinescape, 16 November 2000

Apparently Rowling doesn't think it's too late for Dudley. He is not
beyond redemption, she has sympathy for him, and seems to have
*something* interesting in store for him--else why bother keeping an
eye?

Be consoled. Many redemptions start with small steps. It?fs not all
Road to Damascus.

The business about no back story is meaningless. Back story refers
to events that happened before the narrative began. That is, before
the gray Tuesday morning of Book 1, Chapter 1, i.e. roughly the
first year of Dudley's life. I'm quite content to believe it was an
uneventful year of filling diapers and demanding more food.

The question of little page time in HBP is evident, but the
allowance of *a bit more* in Book 7, is not. What exactly is a bit?
Is that a bit of an understatement? An allowance of two pages? Five?
Half a chapter?

Again, we know Harry has been instructed to return to Privet Drive.
If DD's so-called blood protection is going to prove worthwhile, at
all, it's now or never. Must be an attack.

That would count as a bit more, eh?

We expect to find out how Petunia got all her WW info, and what hold
DD had over her to compel her to both take Harry in and keep him
after the Book 5 dementor attack.

And as for Dudley specifically....

In addition to being capable of redemption, and worth keeping an eye
on, Rowling has given us:

I want to know what Dudley does with his life.

That is a question I would love to answer, but it will ruin
some surprises. I will only say that Dudley's privileged
existence starts to change for the worse in Book 4.
Barnes and Noble interview, March 19, 1999

My, my. Dudley?fs denouement involves surprises. How surprising--
for *just Dudley,* that is. Maybe wysiwyg--but not what you?fre
*going* to get. No back story, but a surprising future?

Does this mean that Dudley's road to better personhood is going to
be sweetness and light? That he an Harry will embrace and exchange
friendship bracelets? Hardly.

Nor do I expect him to be a shinning hero warrior, battling three
DEs with his left hand.

All he has to do is reach deep and pull out a little something, when
it's down to do-or-die. A bit of a distraction, a temporary
obstacle. Whatever it is, it will inure to Harry?fs benefit--if
only because it will be against a common foe.

Though, to reach any progress toward redemption I do think he has to
acknowledge a changing attitude toward Harry. An intention to be
helpful on this occasion, for starters.

I also think that whatever is coming will be quite rough on old
Dudders. Plenty of satisfaction coming for all his rotten ways.

Rowling: Yes, he wants to get back at Dudley. He's a human
boy, and we the readers want him to get back at Dudley. And,
in the long term, trust me, he will.
O'Malley,Judy. Book Links, July 1999

And finally, yes. Whatever Dudley saw when he faced the dementors,
it's apparently plot worthy.

Amy: What did Dudley see when he faced the Dementors in book
five?
JK Rowling replies -Ah, good question. You'll find out!
JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004

It?fs a secret. She wants to save it for a surprise. It?fs worth
knowing.


So what about:
I am sorry if there are Dudley fans out there, but I think you
need to look at your priorities if it is Dudley that you are
looking forward to. [Laughter]."
J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival, Sunday, August 15,
2004.

Well, let?fs see. If Dudley is just a dud, I suppose all the mystery
and intimations of surprise are disingenuous. If there are some
surprises and redemption in Dudley?fs future, the notion that there
is nothing to look forward to isn't quite true.

It's that happy conundrum, was she lying then or is she lying now?

Of course we can accept the fact that she is trying to be
misleading, and then find a reconciling interpretation.

If there are people out there who think that Dudley will rise up to
be the hero of Book 7, fancy him to be the *real* chosen one, dream
of going steady with him, or even hold out hope that he will end up
in a pot of jam--they are insane.

On the other hand, people who expect the Durselys to get a major
thumping in Book 7, will not be disappointed. This fact carries
with it the necessity of some amount of page time involving their
circumstances. A chapter will do, give or take.

Moreover, Dudley can end up eating a great deal of humble pie, and
still manage to do *something* right. I expect there to be some
basis for Rowing to distinguish between Dudley's path, and the elder
Dursleys?fone-way trip to the rubbish pile. I expect there will be
some surprises specifically involving Dudders, and I see no one else
so well positioned to be the late bloomer.

Love to hear more about your interpretation.

Talisman








From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 23:47:16 2006
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:47:16 -0000
Subject: Flying in WAS  Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dq9iio+e07q@...>
Message-ID: <dqemu4+ugh2@...>

Snow wrote:
> 
> (2) If the castle is protected from anyone flying into the grounds 
> (via Dumbledore and Harry flying into Hogwarts for the final 
showdown 
> on the tower), how did the Ford Anglia manage to get through the 
> magical defenses in COS?
> 
Pip!Squeak:
One very simple solution is that Dumbledore added to the defenses 
when Hogwarts started to develop that safe, tranquil air most noted 
in the East End of London during the height of the Blitz {g}.

So in Books 1 and 2 there might be no defenses against brooms. 
People can fly in. Why not? It's a normal mode of wizarding 
transport, much more visible than apparition. Allowing apparition 
would mean a thief could go straight to DD's office, say, and nick 
all the valuables. But you can see someone coming in on a 
broomstick. Really, it's the equivalent of someone driving a car in -
 why should they think to stop it in normal times? There's probably 
some standing request to check in at the office and not fly over the 
quidditch pitch in case you crash into a student, and that's it. 

But sometime during Books 3 to 6 Hogwarts is made a no-fly-zone - no 
crossing the walls on a broomstick. Sometime during these books 
(maybe after the QWC episode, or maybe during PoA) Dumbledore has 
protected the castle against aerial entry.
 
Changing the spells during PoA makes most sense; blocking flying 
means there's no way into the castle except the entryways Dumbledore 
knows about. 

Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape







From pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 15 23:53:30 2006
From: pip at bluesqueak.yahoo.invalid (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:53:30 -0000
Subject: Flying in WAS  Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqemu4+ugh2@...>
Message-ID: <dqen9q+sicd@...>


> Snow wrote:
> > 
> > (2) If the castle is protected from anyone flying into the grounds 
> > (via Dumbledore and Harry flying into Hogwarts for the final 
> showdown 
> > on the tower), how did the Ford Anglia manage to get through the 
> > magical defenses in COS?
> > 
> Pip!Squeak:
> One very simple solution is that Dumbledore added to the defenses 
> when Hogwarts started to develop that safe, tranquil air most noted 
> in the East End of London during the height of the Blitz {g}.
> 


Y'know, I really should learn to read the entire thread before I start 
replying - apologies to everyone who already had the same idea {g}

Pip!Squeak
"Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not 
known how to act?" - Severus Snape






From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 01:25:09 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:25:09 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqcqmq+t4a2@...>
References: <a1ee8d580601141816t7d70a31el8416afdd33f60aba@...>
	 <dqcqmq+t4a2@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601151725q4e49e769o7ddfa527a9a2db08@...>

Talisman:



I am not kidding, at all, to say that, though we may well find a
Book 7 corollary to Snape's HBP vow, I do NOT expect it to involve
the ~nine-year-old-twins, even to the extent of a flashback episode
where they walk in to find Arthur and Molly vowing away, in
flagrante delicto.

They had older siblings coming home from Hogwarts with information
both academic and social; they could overhear their parent?fs
conversations, including tales Arthur brought home from the
Ministry; they could  listen to wizard news reports; read wizard
novels; read the Daily Prophet, etc.



Snow:



All of these examples would allow the kids to know of the Vow but wouldn't
give them details on how to perform it. Arthur may have came home from work
with news that so and so just died due to his neglect in honoring a Vow he
had made but that doesn't give details on how it is performed. Unless they
actually saw the procedure enacted or were given step-by-step instruction,
how were they able to attempt to perform it? Also I got the distinct
impression that this Vow is of the Dark Arts variety of magic, not something
that is shared openly on public forums like the Daily Prophet or at Hogwarts
since Miss Know-it-all was unawares of the Vow at all.



Talisman:



You, of course, are perfectly free to go on imagining dire scenarios
in which the tender-aged twins are taught how to elicit unbreakable
vows, but I expect such efforts to come to naught.

Snow:



You cut me to the quick :)

I highly doubt that the twins were purposely taught, other than through
their own volition to spy. That was my point. The twins are known for their
unusual methods of spying with extendable ears and so on, that's how they
retrieve information and of course all new findings must be tested?"oh Ron".




Talisman:



I?fm not sure that Phoenix tears were ever established as
*all purpose* in the sense that they could cure anything and
everything.  If that were the case you?fd think they would just have
a tank of them at St. Mungo?fs.  Wouldn?ft have had to fiddle around
with Arthur?fs experimental stitches, etc.   Speaking of which,
surely, DD would ask Fawkes to squeeze a few out for an Order
member, wounded in the line of duty.

I have no doubt that Fawkes was dispatched to the CoS at DD?fs
orders, and that it was no matter of happenchance that Fawkes was
specially suited for the job of protecting Harry from the Basilisk.

I?fm sure there are any number of other ailments he can cure, as
well.

On the other hand, I don?ft think that Fawkes is the answer to all
wizarding health problems.

Snow:



Phoenix tears have healing powers?no exclusions noted. The one thing you do
need however is a Phoenix to cry. Does the Phoenix pick and choose his
victim or is it by command that he can whip up some tears?



Snow:
We also know that Fawkes was at the rescue in the DOM when
>push came to shove but he is not essential with all his powers (of
eating an
>AK) when it comes down to the Horcruxes?

Talisman: (In a terribly insincere manner) Well, I suppose Fawkes
could try to eat the Hxes, and then someone could AK him... `course
some of the artifacts might be harder to swallow than others. : P
Then too, who would really want to AK Fawkes? He?fd have to fly
around the DE?fs till he instigated an attack. All very tiresome.

Snow:



Well it isn't like he doesn't get rejuvenated from his ashes :) Although he
is indispensable for this reason, it does seem cruel to abuse the fact he
has a number of lives for the giving.



Talisman:
Phoenix tears have healing properties, and Fawkes can certainly take
a lethal hit and come back, but that?fs a different proposition than
saying that he can cure the effects of any curse that LV may have
used to protect his Hxes.  Whether Fawkes could destroy the Hxes
requires more information on exactly how that is done--something we
are unlikely to find out before Book 7, as the SK business is still
in the lead over at the FAQ poll.



Snow:



Well since the Diary, the ring, and the locket all had some type of
protection, it's a good bet that it's more than just finding the article in
order to destroy it. I agree I would like to have the Horcrux question
answered more so than the SK, although I doubt she'll answer either with a
satisfactory response. Her answers are either cryptic in nature or evasive
when the question is of an essential nature.

Talisman:


Let?fs face it, if he could simply have pecked a hole in the Diary,
why didn?ft he do it straight away in CoS, and save Harry all the
bother?

Snow:



That wouldn't have allowed for the Big Bad Basilisk to get his just deserts
or for Harry to be carefully taught, would it?



Snow:
>(b) Dumbledore wants Snape to believe that he needs him desperately
for
>the job at hand

Talisman: DD does need Snape desperately for the job at hand.  I
don?ft think Snape is at all unaware of this fact.  Moreover, if
phoenix tears could have cured the hand, I?fm certain Snape would
have been aware of that, too.  The idea that DD is patronizing Snape
in order to make him feel more talented and useful than he really
is, is a pretty blatant misread, if you ask me.

Snow:



Just examples of possibilities, not that I believe any of them but the last:

Snow:
>However my personal favorite is that Dumbledore
>realized there is a close spy amongst them that caused Snape's
loyalties to
>be questioned by the deatheaters and Voldemort so Dumbledore had to
use his
>own demise to flush out the culprit.



Talisman: It?fs not at all clear to me what you mean.  That LV and
the DE?fs questioned Snape?fs loyalties is a matter of canon.  LV
may have accepted Snape?fs explanations, but certainly he had his
reservations, ergo Wormtail on the premises *to assist* Snape in
unspecified ways, 24 / 7.  Bella makes it pretty clear that she?fs
not buying Snape?fs story, no doubt there are others in that camp.



Snow:



But why does Voldemort question if Snape is genuine to his cause? Is it
merely to keep Snape in check or has Voldemort learned of some foundation
for his suspicion that Snape may not be his man?  My suspicions are based on
assumptions however that Snape did not know of the plan against Dumbledore
until Narcissa was tricked into making him aware. It's only by this
assumption that I became curious as to why Voldemort did not allow Snape to
know of his plan. Why didn't the Dark Lord trust dear Severus, what caused
Voldemort to question Snape's loyalty? Now Snape has to be concerned that
Voldemort did not trust him with the plan, since he was unaware of it (?)
until Narcissa gave it up. Snape tells Dumbledore that Voldemort is
beginning to question his loyalties to him, which is why Dumbledore must
make it appear, to Voldemort, that Snape is truly loyal to Voldemort.
Unfortunately, if he pulls this off well, Snape would then appear to the
good guys as such.

The question is why Voldemort felt that Snape was no longer trustworthy and
therefore did not allow him knowledge of the plan. Did someone tell
Voldemort some inside information about Snape that caused Voldemort's
distrust?

I like this idea because it gives basis for what Dumbledore did and said all
year like telling Harry to trust no one except himself, Ron and Hermione.
Where did that come from, can't he trust the Order of the Phoenix members
any more? Not even the new head master? Dumbledore doesn't appear to be
trusting of anyone other than Severus these days, why?

This may only make sense to me but I like it.



Talisman:



On the other hand, I don?ft see your evidence that there is a new
traitor in the Order.  Haven?ft we done that one already?

Snow:



Recyclable!Jo. Yes, we have, but I don't think he has been caught yet. The
pieces only seem to fit, without pounding them into place, if the true Order
spy has yet to be flushed out. Everyone is still suspicious of everyone else
ergo something doesn't smell right in Denmark.



Snow:
> Dumbledore couldn't really trust anyone but Snape to his plans.

Talisman: DD generally works on a need-to-know basis.  It?fs the
prudent thing to do in the world of espionage.  That doesn?ft
signal  Wormtail redux.  It?fs just that loose lips happen, not to
mention Legillimens, veritaserum, torture, people listening at
keyholes, etc.  Moreover, not everyone is as good an actor as
Snape.  Need some real tears at the funeral.

On the other hand, someone else may know.

Snow:



Well if you were trying to find the source of the problem?that is if you
were suspicious of your allies, you wouldn't be able to allow anyone that
isn't totally trustworthy of where their loyalties lie in on your plans.
Snape however appears to have earned a spot on the list right next to Harry
in his trustworthiness for what ever reason but it must be a good one that
had to be kept private because no one knows what it is, not even McGonnegall
who is known to be the next to take the seat of honor once Dumbledore exits
stage left. Dumbledore doesn't even trust the next in line who will be
making all strategic moves against Voldemort but without vital information.
It appears Dumbledore doesn't trust anyone, why? Is he suspicious that one
of his league cannot be trusted with the details that most assuredly would
incriminate Snape as being true to Dumbledore? Dumbledore knows that the end
could be near for him and yet he chose to take Snape's secrets to the grave?
Was Dumbledore concerned that this information in the wrong hands could
thwart the whole operation (for Harry) that had been planned from the very
beginning? Snape's true identity could not be entrusted to anyone because he
is just that dire to the outcome, looks obvious to me, but it doesn't allow
the reasoning as to why Dumbledore wouldn't have entrusted at least the next
in line so they could continue the fight with knowledge unless he couldn't
be certain of anyone's loyalties. But again, why couldn't he trust at least
McGonnegall?is there a basis for his non-trusting behavior where it concerns
Snape? Dumbledore has even passed this behavior on to Harry?don't trust
anyone but Ron and Hermione.



Snow:
Snape was furious at Dumbledore and responded to him
>at the edge of the forest that he took "too much for granted"
because it
>would have been a scenario that had to be played out with everyone's
>cooperation; Draco, the spy, the Deatheaters?Eeveryone in the right
place at
>the right time and what if Snape hadn't been able to stop Fenrir

Talisman: Snape definitely didn?ft savor playing the *kill DD*
card.  I?fm not comfortable with the term *everyone?fs cooperation,*
the parties you list were managed, they were not cooperating in the
plan, per se.  Draco was expected, it was his assignment; A DE death
squad to witness things was required, and expected; Snape doubtless
had to arrive at just the *right* time; I reserve judgment on
whether Fenrir was specifically necessary to the plan.  (Though on a
meta level, I?fm sure we needed the introduction)

Snow:



That's just it; everything had to play out neatly lest Dumbledore's life
would have been sacrificed by a true deatheater. Of course I am viewing this
operation, as the Dumbledore-didn't-really-die-scenario. Snape's arrival was
detrimental to the whole plan. If Snape hadn't come to the Tower the plan
would have failed. Snape's given words that Dumbledore takes too much for
granted was the fact that Dumbledore trusted that Snape would be able to
intervene and correct any situation but it could only play out in that favor
if all parties involved reacted as suspected they would.

Dumbledore knew what Draco was up to, he knew at the very least about the
RoR suspicions that Harry told him. Dumbledore knew that Hogwarts was in
jeopardy of infiltration by the DE's, which is why the Order was protecting
it in his absence. So Dumbledore's counter move was already decided for each
possibility but contingent to the deatheaters actions if they acted true to
form that they were not to attempt to kill Albus because it was up to Draco.
Snape on the other hand is viewing the matter from a different prospective
and knows that some of the old gang may jump the gun and take matters into
their own hands, or teeth as it is, since Fenrir was an example of the
concern Snape had; Dumbledore is taking too much for granted. Fenrir could
have cared less about the orders not to kill Dumbledore.



In closing I have one more question to add to the list:



We are all aware that Harry has the same birth date as his creator, which I
always contributed to the fact that this is her story but why was Voldemort
born the day her mother died?



Snow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 02:13:27 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:13:27 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] re: J+L are dead / Snow's questions / Dr 90210
In-Reply-To: <dqed0q+hk5r@...>
References: <dqed0q+hk5r@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601151813w351e6b1frb65f0b1f9a81ee08@...>

Me previouly:


<< (3) If the Phoenix has healing powers in its tears, why didn't
Fawkes just cry on Dumbledore's wand hand that was burned by the
Horcrux to heal it? >>
Catlady:

JKR has decreed that in the Potterverse, no magic can reverse death.
Thus, not even Phoenix tears can reverse death. That's a good argument
for the suggestion made on TOL that DUmbledore's hand is DEAD and
Snape used his 'stopper death' ability mentioned in his opening speech
to keep DEATH from spreading further through DD's body.

Snow:



An answer I can honestly live with? thank you! You obviously can't heal
something that is dead.


Me previouly:

<< (5) How would the twins even know about the `unbreakable vow' at
age nine let alone attempt to perform it on a five-year-old Ron? Where
did they see someone doing this at age nine that they would even know
of `its' existence? >>
Catlady:

My childhood recollection is that smart kids in a house with books
read all the books, even if they don't understand them. My Muggle
memories instead hearing some adult expressing regret that in his
childhood, he had climbed to the top shelf of the bookcase to get the
books his parents had put out of his reach, especially his father (a
police officer)'s photographically illustrated textbook on determining
how long a corpse had been dead.

Snow:



Reading does not appear to be the twins' forte. I agree it would be a factor
to the common variety intellectual child but these children are not common
they are sneaky. They also appear to have a craving for naughty places
(knockturn alley) and items (dung's Venomous Tentacula seeds), which tells
me they don't look for answers in books?along with the fact that their
grades do not reflect the book learning aspect as well.



Me previouly:


<< (6) Does anyone else see the big blonde death eater as a giant with
less skill with his wand than even Hagrid? Is that why the blonde
death eater chose to ignite Hagrid's cabin because he realized it
would be futile to engage stunners against a giant, being one
himself? >>
Catlady:

No. Not only are full-blood giants twenty feet tall, which surely
Rowling have described not merely as 'big', but she specified that
"Unlike Hagrid, who simply looked like an oversized human, Grawp
looked strangely misshapen. What Harry had taken to be a vast mossy
boulder to the left of the great earthen mound he now recognised as
Grawp's head. It was much larger in proportion to the body than a
human head, and was almost perfectly round and covered with tightly
curling, close-growing hair the colour of bracken. The rim of a single
large, fleshy ear was visible on top of the head, which seemed to sit,
rather like Uncle Vernon's, directly upon the shoulders with little or
no neck in between." (from the OoP Chapter titled "Grawp")

Snow:



Sorry my clarity was not defined in this question. I was actually relating
him to Hagrid and Hagrid's abilities or lack thereof. I also doubt that he
is a full giant but as I have already stated elsewhere, he does seem to
relate to Hagrid's non abilities and tough skin.





Me previouly:

<< I could accept that answer for the teddy bear/spider incident, >>

Catlady:

Surely the teddy bear/spider incident was an act of childhood
unintended magic, like Harry finding himself suddenly on the roof when
having been pursued by bullies, or turning his teacher's wig blue. As
in Rowling's response to the Rumor that "Harry is a Metamorphmagus":
<< Anyway: before they have received training, very young witches and
wizards are prone to unstable surges of power, often accidentally
producing effects that they may have to train for a few years to be
able to reproduce deliberately. Their magical ability is bottled up
for weeks at a time and then, when made angry or frightened, it simply
explodes out of them, sometimes (as in the case of the vanishing glass
in the chapter of the same name, 'Philosopher's Stone) causing at
least as much inconvenience to themselves as others. >>

Snow:

You most certainly could be right but I view these precious babes as much
more than the norm. JKR has gone to great lengths to obscurely drop hints to
who these two really are. They have been more of an obsession to me than the
obvious characters because of this.
I think I'll drop this at that note or else I'll be off and running at the
mouth again.


Snow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 03:04:04 2006
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:04:04 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dq9iio+e07q@...>
Message-ID: <dqf2f4+iis3@...>

> Snow:
> 
> (3) If the Phoenix has healing powers in its tears, why didn't Fawkes 
> just cry on Dumbledore's wand hand that was burned by the Horcrux to 
> heal it? 
> 

Neri:
Because phoenixes are poor actors. They can't shed their tears to
order. They must feel extremely sad in order to cry, or it wouldn't be
true tears. In GoF (Ch. 36), Fawkes sits in Harry's lap while Harry
tells Dumbledore and Sirius what had happened in the graveyard, but
only at the very end of the story he is moved enough to shed tears on
Harry's injured leg. Of course, Harry's leg was nothing that Madam
Pomfrey couldn't manage in a thrice, but that was the point in Harry's
story where the reader too feels like fumbling for the tissues. 

Now Dumbledore's hand, it's just not enough to merit a good cry, even
if it's Fawkes' master. A 12 yrs old kid dying lonely in Slytherin's
ancient dungeon, after he heroically tried but faild in saving the
little girl from the most evil wizard of all times ? that's a
different story. But the old meddler finally making a mistake and get
zapped for it, well, it *is* a bit sad, but it's not *that* sad, if
you know what I mean.   

Neri







From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 04:01:10 2006
From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 04:01:10 -0000
Subject: Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
In-Reply-To: <032201c61a25$9b1e1570$6801a8c0@...>
Message-ID: <dqf5q6+oe8a@...>

Rebecca:

> Have we perhaps seen this character's magic already?  Or perhaps JKR
> tossed the concept in her writing of the books as it didn't "fit"? 
> 1999 is rather a bit ago...I'd also submit that Madame "I See The
> Future Thru My Alcoholic Haze" Trelawney might be a candidate, 
> unless someone has seen in the books where she has performed some 
> kind of magic with a wand...

Jen: I've always liked the idea of Trelawney, even better after OOTP 
when she waved her wand around uselessly during the Umbridge fight. 
However, she does at one point during OOTP wave her wand and the 
lights go out in Divination. I've tried to figure a way around that 
one and can't, esp. with no electricity in the castle (thus perhaps a 
motion sensor of some type on her wand to simulate actual magic). 

Also, while Trelawney is no doubt headed for 'desperate circumstances' 
in the last book without Dumbledore's protection, the other downside 
is Harry believes she can do magic, so there's no shock and awe there.

See I'm thinking we're all supposed to be gaping along with Harry at 
the person who performs magic later in life. For that reason Petunia 
was my first choice up until the ruination, so now I'm reading 
Talisman's arguments for Dudley with interest. He would be BIG, unlike 
Filch or Figgy, not to mention the equivocation-in-interviews issue 
again: On her website JKR said that Squibs are "non-magical people" 
and about Filch and Figgy specifically, "neither of these characters 
can perform magic." One of the interviews can't be taken at face-
value, whether it's this one or the one about Dudley OR either Filch 
or Figgy aren't really a Squib. I don't see another way around all 
these interviews unless it's someone else entirely.

Jen








From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 05:17:53 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 05:17:53 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580601151725q4e49e769o7ddfa527a9a2db08@...>
Message-ID: <dqfaa1+4a9s@...>

Snow wrote: 
> We are all aware that Harry has the same birth date as his creator, 
which I
> always contributed to the fact that this is her story but why was 
Voldemort
> born the day her mother died?


Kathy W:
Good catch. Chilling though. Well, erm, do we know which came first? 
One heck of a coincidence if she'd already set the date. In the most 
recent interview JKR says she understands LV's fear of death and his 
desire to conquer it. (Death, not the fear.) So did she set herself out 
with a nod to her own loss? Actually, by making it Tom Riddle's 
birthday, she's made his mother die on the same day her mother did.

Along that rather unpleasant thought. Did anyone else see a connection 
between DD's deterioration and JKR's mother's MS?






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 07:11:16 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:11:16 -0000
Subject: Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
In-Reply-To: <dqf5q6+oe8a@...>
Message-ID: <dqfguk+q8r5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
>Jen
>On her website JKR said that Squibs are "non-magical people"
>and about Filch and Figgy specifically, "neither of these characters
>can perform magic." One of the interviews can't be taken at face-
>value, whether it's this one or the one about Dudley OR either Filch
>or Figgy aren't really a Squib. I don't see another way around all
>these interviews unless it's someone else entirely.

Talisman: sitting in a dimly lit room thinking about life in a 
bloody police state because she has a sinus headache and doesn't 
feel like showing ID and signing a meth-lab suspect sheet in order 
to get a box of frigging Sudafed.

I appreciate you, and Rebecca,  weighing in on the squib / Trelawney 
subject.  As I sat around waiting for this Pseudoephedrine free! 
crap to kick in (which it didn't) I realized the error of my hasty 
(one-eye closed) reading of the late-bloomer paragraph, i.e. the way 
it's worded "no" can simply mean no "students in the school" who 
came into their magic as adults.   So, actually, as long as the late-
bloomer never is or was a student at Hogwarts, they could still come 
into magic as an adult.  

Stupid questioner added too many qualifications.

I  really need to go to bed, not look up cites that disqualify adult 
squibs, so thanks very much for covering that for me. : )

There really is a very short list of meaningful heretofore non-
magical characters to draw from.  

I still think it ought to be someone who hasn't yet come of age.  
Dudley is still growing (blooming) Filch and Figg are rather 
shriveled on the vine. 

Moreover, she has made the comments about redemption and surprises, 
in reference to Dudley, and I do expect to see how he reacts during 
an attack on No. 4.

Altogether I think he is the best bet.

Talisman, reminding you that Rowling Obviously Lies Like An 
Inveterate Dumbledore (R.O.L.L.A.I.D.).







From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 07:49:08 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:49:08 -0000
Subject: Happy to be Slo-Mo
In-Reply-To: <dqed0q+hk5r@...>
Message-ID: <dqfj5k+t8q9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:

>Talisman wrote a fine essay in
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3723 and I feel
>guilty about not having any comment on it.


Thanks, Catlady.  Don't worry about commenting.  That's the beauty of 
textual conversations, you can resume them anytime.  Afterall, I think 
you emailed me back in October, and you've been very patient.

By the same token, if you think of something you'd like to add or query-
-be it months from now--we'll just take the matter up again.

Talisman






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 16:22:48 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:22:48 -0000
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580601151725q4e49e769o7ddfa527a9a2db08@...>
Message-ID: <dqgh8o+dh5k@...>

> 
> Snow:
> 
> 
> 
> All of these examples would allow the kids to know of the Vow but wouldn't
> give them details on how to perform it. Arthur may have came home from work
> with news that so and so just died due to his neglect in honoring a Vow he
> had made but that doesn't give details on how it is performed. Unless they
> actually saw the procedure enacted or were given step-by-step instruction,
> how were they able to attempt to perform it? Also I got the distinct
> impression that this Vow is of the Dark Arts variety of magic, not something
> that is shared openly on public forums like the Daily Prophet or at Hogwarts
> since Miss Know-it-all was unawares of the Vow at all.

Pippin:
It sounds like the sort of thing a Curse-breaker would need to know about.
Maybe Bill was living at home in those days, and had reference books and
technical journals in his library. The twins *do* read technical stuff, I'm
sure. 

> 
> Snow:
> >However my personal favorite is that Dumbledore
realized there is a close spy amongst them that caused Snape's
loyalties to be questioned by the deatheaters and Voldemort so 
Dumbledore had to use hisown demise to flush out the culprit.
> 
Talisman:
> On the other hand, I don't see your evidence that there is a new
> traitor in the Order.  Haven't we done that one already?
> 

Pippin:
It's not a *new* traitor, it's the *same* traitor. It's Remus Lupin, and
it always has been.  The evidence of a traitor in the Order is the same
as it was last time: Order members are being picked off, one by one.
Sturgis Podmore, Sirius Black, Emmeline Vance (though her death
may have been faked to secure Snape's cover), Albus Dumbledore.

Really, I don't understand how anybody could still  think that Pettigrew
was spying for an entire year undetected. He stammers and breaks
into a sweat whenever he tries to lie -- something his old friends
Sirius and James would surely be aware of. How could he possibly
have fooled them? Pettigrew did betray the Potters, but only
because he was captured and threatened -- and it was the *real*
spy who gave him away. He confessed for the same reason
that he betrayed the Potters -- because he was in fear of his
life. Betcha.

Voldemort is a paranoid psychopath. It's not in his nature to trust
*anyone.* All Snape needs to know about the plan is that Draco is
not to be hindered from executing it. I believe Snape took the vow
because he thought it was a way to find out what Draco was up to
without appearing to disobey the Dark Lord's command.

Pippin






From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 17:04:52 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:04:52 -0000
Subject: Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
In-Reply-To: <dqf5q6+oe8a@...>
Message-ID: <dqgjnk+m078@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> wrote:
> See I'm thinking we're all supposed to be gaping along with Harry at 
> the person who performs magic later in life. For that reason Petunia 
> was my first choice up until the ruination, so now I'm reading 
> Talisman's arguments for Dudley with interest. He would be BIG, unlike 
> Filch or Figgy, not to mention the equivocation-in-interviews issue 
> again: On her website JKR said that Squibs are "non-magical people" 
> and about Filch and Figgy specifically, "neither of these characters 
> can perform magic." One of the interviews can't be taken at face-
> value, whether it's this one or the one about Dudley OR either Filch 
> or Figgy aren't really a Squib. I don't see another way around all 
> these interviews unless it's someone else entirely.

Anne:

This phrase from JKR: "however, there is a
character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do
magic quite late in life" still makes me think of someone well into
adulthood.  Dudley doing magic at seventeen would be relatively late,
yes, but "quite?"

In my mental image, *if* it's Filch or Figg who do the magic, it'd be
like the proverbial mother who manages with her bare hands to lift a
car off her child.  "In desperate circumstances" tells me it's a
one-off -- the mother in the example does not suddenly hire herself
out as a jack, and Filch or Figg (or Dudley) are not suddenly a witch
or wizard.  Then this bit of desperate magic falls into the same
category as a Muggle having a premonition about the future or seeing a
ghost.

It might be fun if it's Filch; he wouldn't necessarily be doing it for
Harry's sake, would he?

I'd like it if it were Dudders, I'm just not sure.

Anne

P.S. Was anyone else thoroughly surprised to find out that only
witches or wizards can choose to become ghosts?  For one thing, I had
expected death to be more of a difference-eraser; now I get a sneaky
doubt that dead muggles and magicals don't mingle at all. For another
thing, it messes with the way the potterverse fits in with the real
world -- now all the ghosts we "know" of are perforce dead magicals.







From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 17:07:58 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:07:58 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] re: J+L are dead / Snow's questions / Dr 90210
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BD8@...>

Kathy:
>Reading does not appear to be the twins' forte. I agree it would be a
> factor
> to the common variety intellectual child but these children are not
common
> they are sneaky. They also appear to have a craving for naughty places
> (knockturn alley) and items (dung's Venomous Tentacula seeds), which
tells
> me they don't look for answers in books...along with the fact that
their
> grades do not reflect the book learning aspect as well.

I have to question this. Is there any evidence in the books that the
twins don't read? Not reading their set lessons at the set time is not
quite the same thing. As a kid, I wiped out on quite a number of tests
because I was too busy with other things, including reading. I suspect
the twins would be more interested in forbidden books than in textbooks.





From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 17:18:21 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:18:21 -0700
Subject: Werewolves  WAS Re: Some questions
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BD9@...>

Kneasy asked: 
> Dunno about you, but I've never come across partial were-wolf
infections,
> or partial or full natural resistance to such infections before. It's
an
> either/or,
> yes/no type of thing. Get bit and it's hairy pelt time for you, my
son.
> Can
> anyone point to a contrary example?

The Native American wendigo is kind of similar to a werewolf. A
monstrous werewolf-like creature, whose bite doesn't necessarily
transform the victim into the full thing. It reminded me of Fenrir
because the Wendigo bites and eats others in its human form, hence some
interesting late 19th century court cases, where people killed their
relatives claiming they'd become Wendigos and were trying to eat them. 

It piqued my interest that the werewolf in the PoA movie wasn't a real
wolf, but looked terribly like the stylized drawings of the Wendigo.
Don't suppose Rowling had anything to do with that, but while it looked
corny to a lot of people, it really spooked me out, having had a real
childhood fear of the Wendigo brought on from reading details of
gruesome court cases in my region of Canada.

Eileen




From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 18:43:13 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:43:13 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd]Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
References: <dqel0i+6ms6@...>
Message-ID: <047a01c61acc$b532be50$6801a8c0@...>

>>Talisman:
>>Thanks, Rebecca, I've already seen it.  Let's just say that I read
>>all of Rowling's interviews, with interest.  *Believer* might be too
>>strong a word.  However, I do believe she works very hard to cover
>>her tracks. ::cough::Regulus::cough::

Rebecca:

(snorts) Regulus, indeed ;) I always wondered about Sirius' time spent w/ 
Buckbeak......::cough::, ::cough:: nevermind. ;)

<snipped agreed Petunia/DD contact and the BN chat quote, since you caught 
the "adult" possibility afterwards>

>>Talisman:
>>We also know, or should, that a battle is slated for chez Dursley,
>>preferably before July 31st, which will provide the requisite dire
>>circumstances.

Rebecca:

I'm must be dense - I don't know there's a battle slated for casa Dursley 
and in my superior denseness (it's a talent), I'd think JKR would want to 
wrap up the Dursley interaction fairly quickly so Harry can go forth to the 
Bill/Fleur wedding, go to Godric's Hollow, find Horcruxes, find Snape, 
battle Voldemort and do those other activities that heros in epics 
do.<shrug>  I could be wrong about that, as you'll see later.

Does DD actually say how long Harry has to stay at the Dursleys for the 
protection to continue when he returns to Privet Drive "once more"?  I don't 
think he does actually, just that Harry must return and one can infer he can 
spend 2 weeks and leave, or even only a week:

"This magic will cease to operate the moment that Harry turns seventeen; in 
other words, at the moment he becomes a man. I ask only this: that you allow 
Harry to return, once more, to this house, before his seventeenth birthday, 
which will ensure that the protection continues until that time." (HBP)

I also feel I should mention that while DD states the magic protecting Harry 
will cease to work when he is 17, I do wonder  (what can I say, I'm human) 
if that's valid now as a result of DD's death.


<snipped Kneasy's late bloomer Flich/Figg bet (which I'm not taking)>


>>Talisman:
>>Unless you read the late bloomer comment as *No,...I
>>mean...yes,* the adults are out.  And that's just it, who is left?

>>Rebecca finds the WYSIWYG statement controlling.  That is to say,
>>she reads it to say that Dudley is not magic now--and never will
>>be.
>>She also can't accept the idea of a Dudley redemption--choosing to
>>characterize any such event as a *180* (of course we have to careful
>>not to stumble into the argumentative fallacy asserting that no
>>change can occur except the most extreme change.)


Rebecca:

What I perceive in my reading of the books is that I'm not comfortable with 
saying Dudley will have a magical ability, have a positive change, or be the 
one specified from the 1999 interview quotes. I did not say "never" nor did 
I post I couldn't accept anything counter, nor do I feel "controlled" by any 
WYSIWYG statement - I merely stated that it didn't jive for me. That's just 
my impression; I'm sure others have a different view and probably more 
similiar to yours, that's cool with me.

As far as your comment that I choose the characterization of a Dud 
redemption as a 180 - I'm just going on the data at hand and if that's 
WYSIWYG, well, you can't necessarily blame me, I didn't write the books :) 
Dudley has repeatedly been depicted as shallow, bullying, materialistic, and 
selfish other than the few times he's been (as all bullies are) afraid of 
something he doesn't understand or can't compete with (like magic).  If in 
fictional reality some attack should occur at the Dursley house, given what 
we have seen of Dudley thus far, I'm inclined  (based on the descriptions of 
his past behavior)  to think he'd be much more apt to run and try save his 
own behind or hide behind his parents.

I asked a specific question of "how"  in the interest of discussion simply 
because I don't see the point or the big payoff in the plot for JKR to have 
Dudley, as a supporting (I almost used the word "bit") character, in the 
books suddenly change in some fashion - e.g., be magical or redemptive - 
based on the consistent bad behavior he is described as portraying and the 
fact this is the last book. Where does one *go* with that storyline?.  Use 
magic once and never be magical again? Be magical everafter after the first 
ability to do magic? What non magical character could perform magic that 
would make the greatest statement of value and morality? Read on for the 
rest of my interpretation below.....

>>Talisman:
>>Well, letfs see. If Dudley is just a dud, I suppose all the mystery
>>and intimations of surprise are disingenuous. If there are some
>>surprises and redemption in Dudleyfs future, the notion that there
>>is nothing to look forward to isn't quite true.

>>It's that happy conundrum, was she lying then or is she lying now?


Rebecca:

While you think I may have been too dismissive of JKR's quotes, I'm also 
thinking of the timeline in which JKR's statements were in 1999 before GoF, 
and then 2000 after GoF's release and before OoP and HBP. Since that time, 
keeping an "eye" since then on Dudley has resulted in some interesting 
events:

- In GoF he was forced to diet due to the fact he couldn't fit in a school 
uniform, was called a bully on his report card, and got a taste of his own 
medicine eating the twins Ton-Tongue-Toffee;
- In OoP, he started his new fun with his homeboys bullying, smoking, 
vandalising, not to mention his new boxing habit and his encounter with the 
dementors;
- In HBP, unexpected visit by a wizard who puts his parents in their place 
and a reference from that same wizard that his parents have"damaged" him and 
a description he's "unfortunate"

Those are the "high points" and perhaps the surprises she mentions in her 
1999/2000 interview are some of them.  The latter quote from the World Book 
Day chat regarding the question of Dud's dementor experience is an 
interesting one, but a better than indicating its something special and as a 
result Dud will be magical or redemptive, I rather think might answer why 
Dudley (and perhaps the Dursleys overall)  treated Harry as he did for all 
those years - in other words, tie up loose ends, as I would expect that 
Dud's Dementor episode will let me understand Harry's character better. Poor 
Dudley: how much more dire a circumstance can it be (other than an LV 
appearance) when something scares you that badly and makes you feel as 
horrible as the Dementors did in the alleyway, even if you didn't know what 
was happening to you and they could suck out your soul?

I understand JKR's quote where she says she feels sorry for Dudley, but she 
also says tells us in various interviews to keep an eye on Snape, she likes 
Lupin, Hagrid and Luna, she feels sorry for Draco (The Leaky/Mugglenet 
Interview, July 2005) having to walk the walk with the DE's for the first 
time, yet in the same conversation she says that girls dig Draco, but they 
shouldn't, because he's a not a very nice man. That doesn't mean Snape will 
"change", Lupin, Hagrid or Luna won't die, or Draco (having lowered his wand 
in his attack on DD) won't come back in the next book to cause someone 
else's death or kill someone directly. Nor does it mean Dudley is magical or 
will have some minor or major shift in persona or behavior. There's nothing 
in the books to suggest that Dudley is scootin' towards the late bloomer 
prediction (his encounter with Dementors doesn't indicate that he himself is 
magical in any sense) and JKR's quote which states it's "probably too late 
for Petunia and Vernon" ("probably"=loophole)still leaves at least Vernon in 
the running with Dudley, since she's said "never" to Petunia recently.

In Trelawney's case, she does a lot of mundane things the Muggle way; for 
example, in POA, she uses a dustpan and brush to clear Neville's broken 
teacup (why not evaneso it away or reparo it?) and physically throws books 
at students in OoP. The only 2 times I've been able to find her with a wand 
in the series was when Umbridge sacked her (she didn't use it then, or so it 
would appear) and in GoF, when she supposedly "dims" the lights. She also 
describes magic in terms that could lead one to believe she might not be 
able to perform it adequately herself (POA - ".....wizards talented though 
they are in the area of loud bangs and smells and sudden disappearing") and 
dismisses it's importance in lieu of what her specialty appears to be, along 
with her friction with Hermoine and with McGonagall, who both can cast 
spells all over the place and poo-poo divination. Trelawney displaying magic 
in dire circumstances and an eventual JKR explanation later for it would 
seem similiar to the DD/Petunia communication debacle you pointed out in 
your prior post, wouldn't it?

With Figg and Filch (Squibdom) we've see the context in which JKR has 
answered that question: neither of these characters *can* perform magic.  I 
note that her answer to that question is in present tense for the timeframe 
in which she answered it, so I suppose one can't exclude them from the 
possibility. ("can"= loophole, again.)

The scariest and most disturbing thought I had is one about Uncle Vernon 
instead of Dudley - I say this because someone displaying magic late in life 
(and only once - love conquers all, ya know) could equate to love of a 
father saving his family if you subscribe to the Privet Drive attack in the 
next book and the whole concept of the parent(s) who made Dudley how he is 
providing a different example to him than they ever have before. There's 
those family values for JKR to display; I know that when I put Vernon, 
magic, and love all in the same sentence it makes us all want to hurl, but 
JKR herself made me think of it:

"Much of Rowling's understanding of the origins of evil has to do with the 
role of the father in family life. "As I look back over the five published 
books," she says, "I realize that it's kind of a litany of bad fathers. 
That's where evil seems to flourish, in places where people didn't get good 
fathering." (TIME, July 2005)

I'll pass out the air sickness bags to any who want them...

Rebecca









From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 16 23:16:19 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:16:19 -0000
Subject: Dark Lord's Birthday (was some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqfaa1+4a9s@...>
Message-ID: <dqh9g3+gvfn@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:

> Snow wrote: 
> > We are all aware that Harry has the same birth date as his creator, 
> which I
> > always contributed to the fact that this is her story but why was 
> Voldemort
> > born the day her mother died?
> 
> 
> Kathy W:
> Good catch. Chilling though. Well, erm, do we know which came first?  
One heck of a coincidence if she'd already set the date. 

Talisman:

Rowling's site *Biography* gives December 30, 1990 as her mother's 
death date. In HBP, Mrs. Cole tells DD that Merope came to her door on 
a bitter cold New Year's Eve night, and gave birth about an hour later 
(266).

Of course New Year's Eve is December 31st, not December 30th.  

We don't have an exact time, but due to the fact that it was already 
*night* when Merope arrived, plus an additional hour of labor, it's 
reasonable to conclude that the baby who would one day become Voldemort 
was born somewhere in the range of midnight.

This is consistent with received literary symbolism: Winter is the 
season of death, and here we have babyvolde emerging in the *death 
throes* of the calendar year.

It is also consistent with an association with Janus, the two-faced god 
of beginnings and endings.

We saw this image in the first book with Quirrellmort, and, as I've 
said long ago, I fully expect to see this image recur in the final book.


So, yes, I think there are independent reasons for our author to select 
this date for young Riddle's birthday.

She had been writing her book for some time before her mother died, 
and, given her education and interest in drawing from Classical 
mythology,  it's not hard to believe that she had already chosen a 
Janus association to begin and end the series.  

This alone would indicate using Dec. 31 / Jan.1 as the date of 
association.

Couple that with the fact that the dates aren't exact, and that, 
statistically speaking, the holiday season enjoys a higher than usual 
death rate (including people dying from long term disease), and perhaps 
its not too great a coincidence.

Of course she may have added it all after her mother's death. There is 
a certain symbolic felicity in connecting *death of mother* with *birth 
of Voldemort,* whether you read his name as *flight from death* or 
*flying death.*

In the end, there is no way to determine the exact time these details 
entered her plan, at least from extant books and interviews.

Perhaps in the long days after Book 7, if she allows us to keep picking 
her brain...

Talisman








 






From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 17 04:16:35 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:16:35 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Dark Lord's Birthday (was some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqh9g3+gvfn@...>
References: <dqfaa1+4a9s@...> <dqh9g3+gvfn@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601162016y43473e40lcea975f03934fd4c@...>

Talisman terribly snipped:



Of course she may have added it all after her mother's death. There is
a certain symbolic felicity in connecting *death of mother* with *birth
of Voldemort,* whether you read his name as *flight from death* or
*flying death.*

In the end, there is no way to determine the exact time these details
entered her plan, at least from extant books and interviews.

 Snow:

* *

*Barnes&Noble.com* *September 8, 1999 Chat Transcript*

THE SORCERER'S STONE took five years to finish, but during that time I was
working full-time as a teacher, and I was also planning the whole series of
Harry books. CHAMBER OF SECRETS took two years, and AZKABAN took one year.
They're getting faster to write because of a kind of snowball effect. I know
the characters very well by now. And the plots are fully worked out.



Snow:



In 1999 the plots were fully worked out. If you add the time she said it
took; five years to finish, two years for COS and one year for POA. Walla
you have the year her Mom passed away.

I may be viewing this badly but I have always felt, through her interviews,
that she is totally connected to the series i.e. Hermione was the younger
version of herself, but she is like Harry, dementors being like depression,
etc.

I really liked Potioncat's catch of the fact that Voldemort's mother died
that night as well, something that did not come to mind. (Touch? girl)

Is there a psychologist amongst us that we could call on for interpretation
between JKR's life and her counterpart...Harry?

Snow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 17 08:37:46 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 08:37:46 -0000
Subject: Dark Lord's Birthday (was some questions
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580601162016y43473e40lcea975f03934fd4c@...>
Message-ID: <dqiacq+m67r@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kathy King <kking0731 at g...> 
wrote:
>Talisman terribly snipped:
>In the end, there is no way to determine the exact time these 
>details entered her plan, at least from extant books and interviews.

>Snow:
>In 1999 the plots were fully worked out. If you add the time she 
said it
>took; five years to finish, two years for COS and one year for POA. 
Walla
>you have the year her Mom passed away.

Talisman:
Well, I'm not sure about that math, but, at the risk of making you 
terribly snippy, I will point out that you should always be able to 
trace Rowling's HP work back to 1990, because that *is* the year she 
started writing the series.  

?gBut in 1990, my then boyfriend and I decided to move up to 
Manchester together. It was after a weekend's flat-hunting, when I 
was traveling back to London on my own on a crowded train, that the 
idea for Harry Potter simply fell into my head. 

******                                                               
                
I began to write 'Philosopher's Stone' that very evening, although 
those first few pages bear no resemblance at all to anything in the 
finished book. I moved up to Manchester, taking the swelling 
manuscript with me, which was now growing in all sorts of strange 
directions, and including ideas for the rest of Harry's career at 
Hogwarts, not just his first year.?h
J.K. Rowling Official Site, Biography 

Her mother died at the end of that year, after the project was 
underway.

You can certainly say she's done more HP writing since her mother's 
death than she did prior to it.  There is no doubt that all of the 
books have been (or will be) finalized and published post-death.

 But that's a different proposition entirely than identifying 
whether any given detail was scribbled on a notepad, or included in 
that swelling manuscript,  before December 30, 1990.  

That includes any idea to begin and end with a Janus motif--which--
once assigned to Voldemort, would indicate association with the 
change of year.

We actually do know that Rowling?fs mother?fs death *had impact* on 
her writing. 

Again, from the JKR Site Biography:
Then, on December 30th 1990, something happened that changed both my 
world and Harry's forever: my mother died.

But even this does not mean that everything written after that time 
was written because of that event.  In particular it doesn?ft mean 
that she placed Voldemort?fs birth on the cusp of the new year 
because that would be *almost* the same date as that of her mother's 
death.

Indeed, Rowling sees the impact of her mother's death as 
unintentional, and mostly to do with a better empathy for Harry?fs 
own bereavement:

Amazon.co.uk: Are any of the stories based on your life, or on 
people you know? 

Rowling: I haven't consciously based anything in the Harry books on 
my life, but of course that doesn't mean your own feelings don't 
creep in. When I reread chapter 12 of the first book, "The Mirror of 
Erised," I saw that I had given Harry lots of my own feelings about 
my own mother's death, though I hadn't been aware of that as I had 
been writing. 
"Magic, Mystery, and Mayhem: An Interview with J.K. Rowling," 
Amazon.com, Early Spring 1999

Snow:
>I may be viewing this badly but I have always felt, through her 
interviews,
>that she is totally connected to the series i.e. Hermione was the 
younger
>version of herself, but she is like Harry, dementors being like 
depression,
>etc.

Talisman: There is no doubt that, like all authors, she draws on her 
life experiences.  She does a pretty good job of identifying *bits* 
that relate to her RW: e.g. her experience with *false memory,*  her 
sister's scarred forehead, her baby pictures (Dudley-esque beach 
balls), Sean's turquoise Anglia, etc.  Rowling has it thus:

 Of the many, many characters in your books, whose personality is 
most like yours?

There is a theory that every character is an extension of the 
author?fs character, which makes me one of the most disturbed 
people, I think. [Laughter]. 

I do not know how many characters I?fve got, but it is nudging up 
towards 200, so I am really in trouble. 

Hermione is a bit like me when I was younger. I did not set out to 
make Hermione like me but she is a bit like me. She is an 
exaggeration of how I was when I was younger. 

Harry is a bit like me. If you squeeze together Harry, Ron and 
Hermione?c I find them quite easy to write, and I think that that is 
because they are a bit like different parts of my personality. 

When you get to someone like Dolores Umbridge, no way? I am 
absolutely not like her. She is a horrible woman.
J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival, Sunday, August 15, 2004.

And so, I return to where I began.

You prefer thin biography.  While acknowledging inclusion of life 
experience, I suggest there could be unrelated artistic 
motivations.  No amount of math or psychology will resolve the 
question, only JKR knows. 

In the end, it?fs a tizzy in a teacup.  I?fm not sure that it takes 
us anywhere, and so, I will leave the field, with these parting 
thoughts:

The evening of July 31st is the commencement of the Feast of Lugh, a 
celtic hero associated with holly, whose mythology includes: a 
prophecy, an attempt to murder him while a babe, a hidden childhood, 
an upbringing by sorcerers, a character with an silver hand, killing 
the evil leader with a stone, and an eventual rise to heroic 
leadership. 

That was the substance of my very first HP post, years ago.

Cheers,

Talisman








From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 17 16:31:00 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:31:00 -0700
Subject: Criticism and the Romance Genre WAS RE: A Lot of Plot
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BDB@...>

Oh good, reader response!

> Kneasy:
> >...whenever there's a set-piece confrontation,
> >authorial partiality, protectionism, the requirements of plot
> continuation
> >always seem to over-ride everyday expectations.
> 
> Talisman:
> The observation that plot drives all else in the HP series has been
> historically cited as an authorial flaw.  In actuality, hegemony of
> plot is a legitimate feature of the author's chosen genre.

Ah, but that's not really a way out of the criticism. To take an
example, the 'deus ex machina' is a legitimate feature of Classical
drama. Has never stopped anyone from criticizing it as a weakening of
the play's strength where it appears. 

There is no objective standard of criticism, protecting a genre's
classic features from negative reaction. Criticism at bottom is the
reader's response. It is useful to understand where the genre or author
is coming from, but that does not determine the scope of criticism.
There are no off-limit zones. 

In the history of literature, there are features of genres and even
whole entire genres that we have completely abandoned. Let's take a very
small example this time of the former. The Detective Genre. 

The person who decides to employ the features of the detective story
circa Conan Doyle is in for a big shock. He will discover that, although
everything he employs is well supported in tradition, readers won't
judge it by the criteria of 1890. The detective who makes connections as
obscurely as Sherlock Holmes isn't likely to be a hit with the public.

If the author is happy to live with that, playing with genre features
that few others like, that's fine for him and his devoted fans.
Sometimes an author's play with seemingly out-dated literary features
will turn out wildly popular in the end. The Lord of the Rings broke
most of the 'rules' of modern characterization and dialogue, going back
to more antique precedents. And we all know how well that worked out.

But sometimes it doesn't work out at all for a lot of readers. The end
of OotP is a good example. I'm sure many people enjoyed it. A lot of
people didn't. I didn't. I found it - I'm not sure contrived is the
right word, since all literature is contrived! Showing itself as
contrived? It crossed that boundary of suspension of disbelief. Why
should a hundred other coincidences and plot nudges not do that, and
this one scene do it? I have a few theories - one of them being that
readers are influenced by having seen the conveniently survived
confrontation scene done way too many times in book and film to tolerate
it much anymore - but in the end, it comes down to something very
personal, as does all criticism.

> A better appreciation of genre would save a lot of erroneous
> criticism of the author, not to mention misreading of the text.

I'm not of the opinion that there can *be* erroneous criticism of the
author, if we're talking of emotional reaction. If someone says, "This
is not satisfying to *me*," how can you counter that with "This is a
legitimate feature of the genre?" That's an explanation of why the
author is doing what he or she does. It can help understanding where the
plot is going, which I admit is more often the focus of fan discussion
than pure reader response. 

> Moreover, romantic characterization *leans toward* allegory.  While
> *pure* Romance calls for *idealized* characters, the trend over
> literary history has been toward increased realism. Afterall, even
> Gawain gets a nick in the neck.

Yes, the trend. There are trends. And the trends are important. In
general, we prize authors who take romance and strike out towards
increased realism. We are not clamoring to read the latest romance about
perfectly idealized characters, not all of us. Our critical senses are
pointing in the other direction, even if we appreciate the genre.
 
> Rowling's characters have sufficient psychological realism to
> engage the reader (another evidence of her talent, IMO) but this
> quality is only a movement along a continuum whereon they are still
> well within the Romantic genre.

Certainly. And further along that continuum, yet still well within the
Romantic genre, are stories with more psychological realism than
Rowling's. And less. I rank Rowling higher than Garth Nix, an author
within the same genre: children's romance, whose stories I very much
enjoy, for the simple reason that her greater psychological realism is
the superior. Yet, also within the same genre, I rank Terry Pratchett's
"A Hat Full of Sky" as a better book than Rowling's HP series. 

There's no really objective standard of criticism. Perhaps it might be
unfair to call Rowling's plot gymastics an authorial flaw, but then
perhaps it might be unfair to call any lack we sense in any story a
flaw. No story is obliged to live to our expectations. 

Still we do. 

> Conversely, the bully plot is sometimes blamed for characters
> behaving *out of character,* when what is really happening is that
> the reader has totally misapprehended the character.
> 
> Typically this pertains to DD.  It really is mystifying how many
> times readers can blame Rowling for making DD do something that
> *doesn't fit* (or requires the reader to concoct elaborate
> explanations) and yet never ask themselves if, instead of DD doing
> something odd for the umteenth time, it might not be they,
> themselves, who have got the wrong end of things.

In practice, I mostly agree. Yet, it's not impossible or even improbable
for an author to write their character acting in a way that contradicts
the author's own view of the character. Authors do slip up sometimes.
Questions about whether they have in any specific case are usually
unresolvable, except from the author's POV, though.

Eileen




From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 17 19:21:48 2006
From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:21:48 -0000
Subject: [the_old_crowd]Dudder Late Magic (WAS Re: Some questions)
In-Reply-To: <dqdvq1+pkg5@...>
Message-ID: <dqjg4c+q5gp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
snip
> 
> 
> OK.
> So the late bloomer ain't Petunia or Dudders.
> 
> Who's left?
> The squibs - Filch or Figg. 
> Place your bets...
> 
> Kneasy
>

Happy New Year one and all!

Funny you should mention this but I've been thinking about Argus 
Filch. Ok say 'Argus' comes from a hundred eyes pretty useful for his 
policing role in Hogwarts but what about 'Filch' as in to be light 
fingered?

So DD is pretty sure Voldy didn't get into Hogwarts to mess with 
Godric's gear but Filch could have 'lent' him something during his 
stay. Filch, no lover of the new age approach would surely approve of 
Voldy's leadership style and as a squib his feelings towards mud 
bloods is likely to be complex...

If Filch slipped Voldy Godric's sword to be HRXed he's in fairly deep, 
as caretaker of Hogwarts he's likely to be around even if the school 
is closed and he provides a handy plot device for bringing Hogwarts 
back into play.

As to discovering latent magical talent why not in defence of Mrs 
Norris?

Regards
Jo

I still wish it were Petunia though! Sigh.







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 18 13:56:23 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:56:23 -0000
Subject: Criticism and the Romance Genre WAS RE: A Lot of Plot
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BDB@...>
Message-ID: <dqlhe7+7e1o@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" <erebstock at c...> wrote:
> 
> > A better appreciation of genre would save a lot of erroneous
> > criticism of the author, not to mention misreading of the text.
> 
> I'm not of the opinion that there can *be* erroneous criticism of the
> author, if we're talking of emotional reaction. If someone says, "This
> is not satisfying to *me*," how can you counter that with "This is a
> legitimate feature of the genre?" That's an explanation of why the
> author is doing what he or she does. It can help understanding where the
> plot is going, which I admit is more often the focus of fan discussion
> than pure reader response. 
> 

I mostly agree.
Hiding behind the fig-leaf of genre as a way to excuse lazy or sloppy
plotting (by any author) is just not on. And it becomes less  excusable
by an order of magnitude when contrivances, unlikely escapes or special 
pleading seem to apply only to a particular character or set of characters.
And I haven't noticed Jo cutting the baddies much slack.

Consistency matters. Otherwise there'll be a "Ho hum, Harry's in trouble
again. Never mind, he always emerges unscathed 'cos the baddies will be
dim or inept - or he, a partly trained student,  will pull out a magical
gem which will totally confound wizards with decades more experience
with (and skill in) magical combat." A slight exaggeration, but not by much.

There's a character discussion (about action films) in a book by a favourite 
author of mine - "one fine day in the middle of the night" by Christopher
Brookmyre, where they critique films with high and low "bullet deadliness
quotients". It's acceptable for the baddies to spray automatic-weapon fire
over the surrounding countryside without hitting a damn thing so long as
the hero is an equally (or nearly) rotten shot. But if he almost never misses
while they wave automatics around like hose-pipes, then it's an insult to
the viewing public. And in HP just one more straw could well break the
camel's back.

Perhaps you think that attitude is too demanding.
Well, look at it this way - we owe it to posterity to keep writers up to
scratch, otherwise the bookshop shelves will be groaning under the
weight of 100% unmitigated tripe instead of the (roughly) 60% we have
now. Of course, it's a different 60% for each reader but that doesn't
alter the principle of voting with your wallet the way your critical faculties
dictate. 
Blaming genre when you suspect that the author could do better is a cop-out. 

I do like Brookmyre. 
Black, black humour, decent (though usually outrageous) plot, lots of gore, 
entertaining characters.
The one above plus "Quite ugly one morning" and "Country of the Blind"
I find particularly enjoyable.
 
Kneasy






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 18 15:32:31 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:32:31 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Criticism and the Romance Genre WAS RE: A Lot of Plot
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BE1@...>

Barry:
> Blaming genre when you suspect that the author could do better is a
cop-
> out.

Yes, particularly when the literary successes of each generation are
often enough based on tweaking the accepted genre rules. In this
respect, I've just remembered that JKR herself expressed this quite well
in the interview with Emerson Spartz and Melissa Anelli. She quoted
Dorothy Sayers as saying that a romantic intrigue in a detective novel
can only properly function as a cover for something else, but that
Sayers herself had broken that very convention. 

I'd say with success, since the thing most people will recall about
Sayers' mysteries is the Peter Wimsey/Harriet Vane romance. 

'Time Magazine' 's odd suggestion that JKR has completely transformed
the fantasy genre doesn't seem supportable, but I'm sure there are ways
in which she has tweaked genre herself, and that these account for some
of her popularity.

Eileen




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 18 20:11:48 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:11:48 -0000
Subject: Criticism and the Romance Genre WAS RE: A Lot of Plot
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BE1@...>
Message-ID: <dqm7e4+kpvc@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" <erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> Barry:
> > Blaming genre when you suspect that the author could do better is a
> cop-
> > out.
> 
> Yes, particularly when the literary successes of each generation are
> often enough based on tweaking the accepted genre rules. In this
> respect, I've just remembered that JKR herself expressed this quite well
> in the interview with Emerson Spartz and Melissa Anelli. She quoted
> Dorothy Sayers as saying that a romantic intrigue in a detective novel
> can only properly function as a cover for something else, but that
> Sayers herself had broken that very convention. 

Pippin:
If I'm right about Lupin, then actually JKR hasn't broken that particular
convention at all, and was grinning to herself as she pulled off a spectacular
double bluff  right under the noses of some of the most involved readers
she has.

Pippin







From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan 19 03:01:23 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:01:23 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqgh8o+dh5k@...>
References: <a1ee8d580601151725q4e49e769o7ddfa527a9a2db08@...>
	 <dqgh8o+dh5k@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601181901q7d2be946se64a66fc91599c23@...>

Pippin:
It's not a *new* traitor, it's the *same* traitor. It's Remus Lupin, and
it always has been.  The evidence of a traitor in the Order is the same
as it was last time: Order members are being picked off, one by one.
Sturgis Podmore, Sirius Black, Emmeline Vance (though her death
may have been faked to secure Snape's cover), Albus Dumbledore.

Really, I don't understand how anybody could still  think that Pettigrew
was spying for an entire year undetected. He stammers and breaks
into a sweat whenever he tries to lie -- something his old friends
Sirius and James would surely be aware of. How could he possibly
have fooled them? Pettigrew did betray the Potters, but only
because he was captured and threatened -- and it was the *real*
spy who gave him away. He confessed for the same reason
that he betrayed the Potters -- because he was in fear of his
life. Betcha.



Snow:


I think so too! At least I have the same suspicions for almost the same
reasons (some may be my own reading) but at the very least we agree that
Pettigrew is a rouse. If he is, who Else could it be?
We have no back-story on this character (Lupin) even to the extent of the
others, why leave so much detail out of this Particular character unless
there is a purpose; If for no other reason that in-it-self gives play for
doubt in my book.


If you detach yourself from the feelings you have for a character, strip him
down; what do you have in the end?

What do we know about Lupin:



(1)   Lupin was bitten by a werewolf (who we know now was Fenrir)

(2)   Lupin attended school ONLY by the grace of Dumbledore...

(3)   Lupin was afraid, because of his affliction, that no one would
befriend him

(4)   Lupin finds friends who he never thought would except him

(5)   Lupin has friends that go the extra distance and transform for him
(breaking every rule that exits, not to mention Ministry rules [Animagus])

(6)   Lupin then finds he has an enemy who is attempting to expose him in
his Shangri-La (obvious apprehension comes to mind); what if?

(7)   What to do? (of course I could fill in the blanks, but I think we know
what they are)
(8)   Friends have deserted him (?) via no picture (next to) with his
bestest buds in the Order pic and he isn't called upon for Harry's
baptismal, and one of his bestest buds (that broke all school rules for him)
thinks he is the Spy on the Order; therefore making Pettigrew the secret
keeper instead of himself.
(9)  Big Blank

(10)    Lupin has no past but a suitcase with peeling letters pronouncing
that he is a Professor? WHAT?and no one doubts him because he is
?well?Lupin?the good guy! And we don't want him to be bad cause JKR likes
him and well SO DO I...but that isn't enough reason not to suspect him, or
is it?


There may not be enough evidence to prove him guilty but there is enough for
suspicion I would think!

If not him who else, cause someone isnt who they say they are?


Snow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan 19 03:50:35 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:50:35 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Some questions
References: <a1ee8d580601151725q4e49e769o7ddfa527a9a2db08@...> <dqgh8o+dh5k@...> <a1ee8d580601181901q7d2be946se64a66fc91599c23@...>
Message-ID: <006701c61cab$81d2d0a0$6801a8c0@...>

>Snow:

>(1)   Lupin was bitten by a werewolf (who we know now was Fenrir)

>(2)   Lupin attended school ONLY by the grace of Dumbledore...

>(3)   Lupin was afraid, because of his affliction, that no one would
befriend him

>(4)   Lupin finds friends who he never thought would except him

>(5)   Lupin has friends that go the extra distance and transform for him
(breaking every rule that exits, not to mention Ministry rules [Animagus])

>(6)   Lupin then finds he has an enemy who is attempting to expose him in
his Shangri-La (obvious apprehension comes to mind); what if.

>(7)   What to do? (of course I could fill in the blanks, but I think we 
>know
what they are)
>(8)   Friends have deserted him (?) via no picture (next to) with his
bestest buds in the Order pic and he isn't called upon for Harry's
baptismal, and one of his bestest buds (that broke all school rules for him)
thinks he is the Spy on the Order; therefore making Pettigrew the secret
keeper instead of himself.
>(9)  Big Blank

>(10)    Lupin has no past but a suitcase with peeling letters pronouncing
that he is a Professor. WHAT.and no one doubts him because he is
.well.Lupin.the good guy! And we don't want him to be bad cause JKR likes
him and well SO DO I...but that isn't enough reason not to suspect him, or
is it?

Rebecca:

(11) Who were Lupin's parents (particularly his father) such that Fenrir 
Greyback should bite Remus in retaliation for some offense the father did to 
him? Who was dear old Dad that he was able to get a furry young Remus into 
Hogwarts and have DD agree it to be so?

I ask this because Remus himself says that Fenrir's modus operandi was "Bite 
them young" and "raise them away from their parents, raise them to hate 
normal wizards."  Makes you wonder where he went on holiday...

Interesting... 





From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan 19 17:49:55 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:49:55 -0700
Subject: Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BE7@...>

Kathy:
> (8)   Friends have deserted him (?) via no picture (next to) with his
> bestest buds in the Order pic and he isn't called upon for Harry's
> baptismal, and one of his bestest buds (that broke all school rules
for
> him)
> thinks he is the Spy on the Order; therefore making Pettigrew the
secret
> keeper instead of himself.

I don't see his friends as having deserted him. More the other way
around. There are subtle indications in the flashback pensieve scene
that Lupin was already drifting away from Sirius and James in his fifth
year. I pegged him there as the kid with the troubled conscience who
tries not to *see* his friends' behaviour. If Sirius set up the prank,
as Lupin tells it, Lupin had further reason to distance himself. I don't
think they outright broke with each other, just drifted apart. I really
don't see Lupin and Sirius as ever being close by themselves without
James, sorry puppyshippers, until PoA, when they embrace each other like
brothers and forgive *everything*, starting with what happened in school
between them. And then they become very close, the two survivors. 

> no one doubts him because he is
> ...well...Lupin...the good guy! And we don't want him to be bad cause
JKR likes
> him and well SO DO I...but that isn't enough reason not to suspect
him, or
> is it?

It might be. My instinctive reaction to "Lupin is Ever So Evil" is that
I can't think of *any* author who's set up a character to be loved for
most of a *series*, then revealed at the last moment they were actually
evil all along. A book seems to be the longest those stunts are even
taken. JKR may be doing something completely new, but I instinctively
doubt it, particularly as - let's face it - it'd traumatize child
readers. 

Eileen




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan 19 20:06:08 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:06:08 -0000
Subject: Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BE7@...>
Message-ID: <dqorfg+6oio@...>

Kathy:
> > no one doubts him because he is
> > ...well...Lupin...the good guy! And we don't want him to be bad cause
> JKR likes him and well SO DO I...but that isn't enough reason not to suspect
> him, or is it?

Eileen: 
> It might be. My instinctive reaction to "Lupin is Ever So Evil" is that
> I can't think of *any* author who's set up a character to be loved for
> most of a *series*, then revealed at the last moment they were actually
> evil all along. A book seems to be the longest those stunts are even
> taken. JKR may be doing something completely new, but I instinctively
> doubt it, particularly as - let's face it - it'd traumatize child
> readers. 


Pippin:
No trauma. Those who are young enough to think it's all real won't process the
betrayal, at least they don't with Star Wars. Children under six or so don't
grasp that Darth Vader and Luke's heroic father are the same person.

And of course, none of us old fogie knew for sure that Vader was 
Luke's daddy until part way through Return of the Jedi, *years* after
A New Hope.

Pippin











From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan 19 20:08:49 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:08:49 +0000
Subject: Radio TBAY - Business News
Message-ID: <5A93D974-E142-4DC9-82FE-F6FDB06836B6@...>

"Kaynes here, with a round-up of news and comment from the Wizarding  
World of Business ...

"More trouble for spellware developers Magi-Stufft - Willie Wickets,  
head honcho and co-founder, railed against malicious intrusions and  
piracy at the launch of the new 'Porthole v.457.87' spellware  
package. "This one will be perfect,"  he promised as he explained how  
customers could download 'efficient and omni-wand compatible' spells  
in the form of copyright memories from the company's central Pensieve  
- at a cost little more than the user's average weekly salary.

"Objections that this was what he always said were countered with the  
claim that  previous problems had been caused by rogue Legilimens  
illegally accessing user memories to either copy or subvert  
proprietary spells. "Now that we've finally perfected the Occlumentic  
protection, it's a super-stable system," he insisted. However,  
onlookers expressed doubts as to the accuracy of his assertions when  
an attempt to demonstrate the re-vamped 'Office Scroll' spellware  
produced nothing except a grinning colophon which promptly ate his  
wand and then vanished.

"Confirmation from Broom Accessories that the must-have 'Here-U-R'  
precision positioner and 'as the crow flies' route-finder has been  
flying off the shelves - "Yeah, and when we find whoever it is who's  
accio-ing our stuff, they'll wish they'd never been born," a spokes- 
wizard warned ominously.

"And now to Sankey, on the scene at the Ministry were trade  
negotiations have been taking place. Sankey?"

"Hi, Kaynes. Well, the threat of a trade war hangs over us tonight as  
talks break down after some pretty acrimonious exchanges. It's all  
centred on the hassle about magic carpets - which you'll know were  
banned here years ago. What listeners may not know is that at the  
time of the ban manufacturers in the UK who were already established  
were licensed by the Ministry to continue manufacture for export  
only. There are even rumours of substantial covert subsidies. Now the  
owls are coming home to roost. The International Guild of the Fully  
Harmonious and Delightfully Magical Multi-Passenger Woven Aerial  
Transporters has complained of dumping; and not only that, but that  
the dumped goods are cheap rubbish that are undercutting traditional   
craftsmen and causing real hardship among the loomsters. Here's what  
their spokesman had to say after the meeting broke down."

"One time triple-ply Wilton damn good stuff. Now buncha crap. When  
Ministry stop carpets here they also abolish Industry Standards. Now  
makers can use  any old tat to make rugs. It's disgrace! Frayed  
edges! Some can hardly get off ground! And these alchemist-made  
fibres! No good! Get static build-up so strong that when you land the  
shock fries your onions! Unless all change we fight back - we ban  
export of magic herbs, wood for wands."

"Sounds serious,  Sankey."

"Too true, Kaynes. They're serious. The lights will burn late in the  
Ministry tonight as they try to hammer out a deal that will side-step  
the horrors of  rice-pudding rationing. Can they do it?
Sankey, TBAY Business News, the Ministry."

"In a report on the leisure industry, it's been revealed that the  
Ministry has been requested to investigate time-share holidays.  
Complainants speak of holidays spoiled when as many as six families  
found they were all booked into the same small Italian villa at the  
same time and were expected to avoid each other by the judicious use  
of time-turners. "Competition to be first for breakfast got out of  
hand," admitted one. "We all kept going further and further back in  
an attempt to beat the others to the bathroom. We realised it was  
getting silly when one morning we saw Vesuvius erupt and bury  
Pompeii. The kids were really upset - we'd promised to take them to  
the Circus that afternoon. It ruined our holiday."

"And finally:
"Hobbies and pastimes are becoming more popular, according to the  
latest life-style survey conducted by the Chamber of Commerce.  
"Businesses should not be afraid of grasping new and innovative  
opportunities in this age of leisure,"  it stated. As an example it  
highlighted the overnight success of Origami Unlimited - formed after  
the Clean-Sheet Paper Co. folded."

"This is Kaynes, signing off the Business round-up."






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan 19 21:06:25 2006
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:06:25 -0000
Subject: Heaping vow upon a vow..
Message-ID: <dqov0h+pobq@...>

A new thought put to me by someone offlist....

Was that the first unbreakable vow that Snape had made? Could it be 
that the reason that DD had complete faith in the man was, quite 
simply, because Snape had sworn an unbreakable vow to support/protect 
the Order/Harry..?

The vow about Draco which committed him to killing DD if Draco could 
not would not necessarily contradict such an earlier promise, if both 
he and DD knew that eventually, DD would have to pass the baton to 
Snape.

It would be a neat solution to the thing that's been puzzling us from 
the beginning, because it's clear that making such a vow does nothing 
to improve the temper. It would be so Snape to make his promise, 
clasp hands with DD, but then continue on detesting the little brat 
regardless.

Carolyn
apologising for long absence, but keeping up with the list every 
night I assure you






From sherriola at ...  Thu Jan 19 21:13:25 2006
From: sherriola at ... (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:13:25 -0800
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Heaping vow upon a vow..
In-Reply-To: <dqov0h+pobq@...>
Message-ID: <002f01c61d3d$305b05c0$0400a8c0@pensive>

carolynwhite2
A new thought put to me by someone offlist....

Was that the first unbreakable vow that Snape had made? Could it be 
that the reason that DD had complete faith in the man was, quite 
simply, because Snape had sworn an unbreakable vow to support/protect 
the Order/Harry..?


Sherry:

I've heard several other people suggest this.  But in my opinion, this would
go against everything Dumbledore has ever said.  Remember all that stuff
about choices?  An unbreakable vow takes away choice.  Snape may have made
such vows with others, but I don't think it could be Dumbledore.

Sherry




From eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid  Thu Jan 19 22:12:12 2006
From: eloiseherisson at eloise_herisson.yahoo.invalid (eloise_herisson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:12:12 -0000
Subject: Heaping vow upon a vow..
In-Reply-To: <002f01c61d3d$305b05c0$0400a8c0@pensive>
Message-ID: <dqp2rs+euke@...>

> Sherry:
> 
> I've heard several other people suggest this.  But in my opinion, 
this would
> go against everything Dumbledore has ever said.  Remember all that 
stuff
> about choices?  An unbreakable vow takes away choice.  Snape may have 
made
> such vows with others, but I don't think it could be Dumbledore.


Eloise:

Except that making the unbreakable vow in itself might have been a 
matter of choice. In fact, it might even have been a *request*: "Allow 
me to do this in order to prove my loyalty". I also don't think that 
Dumbledore would have demanded it, but I don't think it would be OOC 
for him to accept it. It could also be another element of the 'great 
personal risk' that Snape took in changing sides: no going back.

~Eloise






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 01:59:05 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:59:05 -0000
Subject: Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqorfg+6oio@...>
Message-ID: <dqpg59+ck77@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> Pippin:
> No trauma. Those who are young enough to think it's all real won't 
> process the betrayal, at least they don't with Star Wars. Children 
> under six or so don't grasp that Darth Vader and Luke's heroic father 
> are the same person.

Yeah, but 'Luke's heroic father' is pretty much an off-stage 
construction, IIRC.  Been a good long time since I sat through Star 
Wars.  In contrast, Lupin has been an on-stage character, if not a 
terribly major one--but one written, it seems to me, to be pretty 
appealing.  He's Rowling's ideal teacher, he sticks up for Neville, etc.

Sure, we've learned more things about him, but it's very different 
(just in terms of writerly mechanics--what you can do in terms of 
revealing backstory, and how) to perform that kind of re-evaluation on 
a character who's never actually talked to us, and one who has.

-Nora does a dance of hard-drive resuccitation







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 14:18:06 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:18:06 -0000
Subject: Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqpg59+ck77@...>
Message-ID: <dqqreu+ed8s@...>

Nora:
> Yeah, but 'Luke's heroic father' is pretty much an off-stage 
> construction, IIRC.  Been a good long time since I sat through Star 
> Wars.  In contrast, Lupin has been an on-stage character, if not a 
> terribly major one--but one written, it seems to me, to be pretty 
> appealing.  He's Rowling's ideal teacher, he sticks up for Neville, etc.

Pippin:
It doesn't have anything to do with 'on-stage', it's just the way little
kids process information, if we're still talking about whether children
are going to be traumatized. 


If we're talking about whether adults will find it credible, there's 
nothing very radical about an appealing second-string character
who turns out to be the villain. Christie is full of them. And
we know who reads Christie, don't we.

Lupin's close relationship with Harry is largely a fandom
construct. Harry likes Lupin well enough, but is  distant with him.
He doesn't call him 'Remus', never writes (though he'd like to get 
letters,  he wants Lupin to initiate it), doesn't ask Dumbledore
if he can bring Remus in on this horcrux stuff. Harry will be hugely
shocked if Lupin is revealed as a traitor, but it will be far more 
on Sirius's behalf than his own.


Pippin
hoping Nora's hard drive is better now






From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 14:23:31 2006
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:23:31 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Heaping vow upon a vow..
In-Reply-To: <dqov0h+pobq@...>
References: <dqov0h+pobq@...>
Message-ID: <200601201523.31290.silmariel@...>

carolynwhite2:
> Was that the first unbreakable vow that Snape had made? Could it be
> that the reason that DD had complete faith in the man was, quite
> simply, because Snape had sworn an unbreakable vow to support/protect
> the Order/Harry..?
>

> Carolyn
> apologising for long absence, but keeping up with the list every
> night I assure you

My apologies too.

I catched a cold and later a writing fever, so I haven't keep up (though that 
should be solved in a couple of days), but I had one detail related to this 
in my list of questions. It is not canon based, or pretty doubtable canon, 
since it comes from cover art, but still.

The back cover to HBP -  (bloomsbury, hardback)

http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/hogwartsgallery/category.php?cat=268&expand=169,176,169

depicts a vow. Better seen in the actual book than online. I really have a 
hard time matching those two arms and hands with Cissy and Sevvie, but not 
with DD's 'rotten' hand (the fingers are like DD's on the cover) and Snape's 
skin. I though the clearer arm could belong to one of the children, or to a 
slender man, but not to Cissy. 

Silmariel




From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 15:08:30 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:08:30 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Heaping vow upon a vow..
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64EDD@...>

>I really have a
> hard time matching those two arms and hands with Cissy and Sevvie, but
not
> with DD's 'rotten' hand (the fingers are like DD's on the cover) and
> Snape's
> skin. I though the clearer arm could belong to one of the children, or
to
> a
> slender man, but not to Cissy.

Well, there were some people who insisted that it portrayed Harry and
Hermione's handfasting... *laughs* Snape and Dumbledore would make more
sense, though I'm skeptical as always.

Who's the artist for the British covers? Does he or she read the whole
book or just get told what to draw for the covers?

Eileen




From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 16:00:11 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:00:11 -0000
Subject: Heaping vow upon a vow..
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64EDD@...>
Message-ID: <dqr1eb+b7qh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock"
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> >I really have a
> > hard time matching those two arms and hands with Cissy and Sevvie, but
> not
> > with DD's 'rotten' hand (the fingers are like DD's on the cover) and
> > Snape's
> > skin. I though the clearer arm could belong to one of the children, or
> to
> > a
> > slender man, but not to Cissy.
> 
> Well, there were some people who insisted that it portrayed Harry and
> Hermione's handfasting... *laughs* Snape and Dumbledore would make more
> sense, though I'm skeptical as always.
> 
> Who's the artist for the British covers? Does he or she read the whole
> book or just get told what to draw for the covers?
> 
> Eileen
>


They just get told what to draw.  The only artist who reads the book
at all is Mary GrandPre, for Scholastic, because she does those
chapter illustrations.

I remember an inteview of the British HBP artist, where he described
some of what he was told about how to do the Harry and DD on the
front, but I don't remember anything about the vow illo on the back...

Here is a link to a video of the interview; I was unable to find a
transcript:

http://www.veritaserum.com/news3/comments.php?id=277

(Note: being lazy, I haven't actually watched it)

Anne








From nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 16:38:43 2006
From: nkafkafi at nkafkafi.yahoo.invalid (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:38:43 -0000
Subject: Heaping vow upon a vow..
In-Reply-To: <dqov0h+pobq@...>
Message-ID: <dqr3mj+35j5@...>

> Carolyn:
>
> Was that the first unbreakable vow that Snape had made? Could it be 
> that the reason that DD had complete faith in the man was, quite 
> simply, because Snape had sworn an unbreakable vow to 
support/protect 
> the Order/Harry..?
> <snip> 
> It would be a neat solution to the thing that's been puzzling us 
from 
> the beginning, because it's clear that making such a vow does 
nothing 
> to improve the temper. It would be so Snape to make his promise, 
> clasp hands with DD, but then continue on detesting the little brat 
> regardless.
> 

Neri:
There's no need for another UV just for that. A Life Debt to James 
would work just as well, and doesn't require any further assumptions. 
The canon is already supplied. For more details see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/145024

Now, if you also want Snape to be indebted to Dumbledore, that too 
could be arranged, but would require a few speculations regarding how 
Life Debts work. Nothing really out there, though. The details are in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/140493

Neri







From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 20:13:35 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:13:35 -0000
Subject: Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqqreu+ed8s@...>
Message-ID: <dqrg9f+nif3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
> It doesn't have anything to do with 'on-stage', it's just the way 
> little kids process information, if we're still talking about 
> whether children are going to be traumatized. 

I think the on-stage thing has a lot to do with how kids (and adults, 
to boot) process information.  It's very different to find out that 
someone you've heard stories about but never met ain't what you think 
they are, than to learn of the betrayal of someone who you've 'met'.

Not to mention that in the Star Wars parallel, with the addition of 
the prequels the whole shebang really *is* about Darth Vader.  He's 
become the Wotan to Luke's Siegfried in terms of interest (and cool 
music, too).

> Lupin's close relationship with Harry is largely a fandom
> construct. Harry likes Lupin well enough, but is  distant with him.
> He doesn't call him 'Remus', never writes (though he'd like to get 
> letters,  he wants Lupin to initiate it), doesn't ask Dumbledore
> if he can bring Remus in on this horcrux stuff. Harry will be hugely
> shocked if Lupin is revealed as a traitor, but it will be far more 
> on Sirius's behalf than his own.

Agree that Harry and Lupin aren't terribly close, not like how Harry 
felt for Sirius.  But JKR has still presented Lupin as an overall 
positive figure, I think.  He's the Good Teacher to Snape's Bad 
Teacher in PoA, he's abused by life but not a jerk, he and Tonks have 
talked about relationships and may well be an item at the end of the 
book.  Lupin isn't the saint that some of fandom would make him into, 
but he seems to be pretty firmly in the 'positive' category.  Now, 
that may be a good reason you think he'd make a cracking villain in 
the long run, but it's still not comparable to Luke's heroic 
father. :)

-Nora waits for someone to come install the new hard drive for her






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 21:33:21 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 21:33:21 -0000
Subject: Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <dqrg9f+nif3@...>
Message-ID: <dqrkv1+jukf@...>

 
> > Pippin:
> > It doesn't have anything to do with 'on-stage', it's just the way 
> > little kids process information, if we're still talking about 
> > whether children are going to be traumatized. 

Nora: 
> I think the on-stage thing has a lot to do with how kids (and adults, 
> to boot) process information.  It's very different to find out that 
> someone you've heard stories about but never met ain't what you think 
> they are, than to learn of the betrayal of someone who you've 'met'.
> 

Pippin:
 No matter how explicit you make it, kids who
aren't ready don't connect.  Take the one who asked JKR
why Snape wasn't the bad guy in PS/SS. All she had to say was
that Snape wouldn't wear the turban, because to a mind that
young, the character is the costume. Just like they think the 
guy in the Santa suit *is*  Santa or that  you can
tie a red towel around your neck and fly like Superman. (My
brother managed to break his nose this way.)

Lupin in a DE's robes and hood would be  an entirely different
character from Lupin the kindly DADA teacher.  

For us older folks, there are other characters coping with discrimination and
disability who aren't jerks. 

I'm wondering if the plural in "There aren't many who'd have let you
hire werewolves" is significant.  That would explain Snape's need
to brew whole cauldrons of wolfsbane at a time, and Hermione's
amazing perspicacity in guessing what Lupin was. *Two* teachers
disappearing at the same time every month would be a bit of
a giveway. It's gotta be Vector,  conveniently enough a term
which refers to both maths and an agent of disease transmission.
Hmmm.


Pippin







From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 22:05:05 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:05:05 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64F02@...>

Pippin:
> No trauma. Those who are young enough to think it's all real won't
process
> the
> betrayal, at least they don't with Star Wars. Children under six or so
> don't
> grasp that Darth Vader and Luke's heroic father are the same person.

Your experiences in that regard are very different from mine! I haven't
noticed children of the age to follow the story at all have had any
difficulty in identifying Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader. I was about
eight I think when I first saw Star Wars, so I can't give my own
perspective, my younger siblings and my childhood friends' younger
siblings certainly understood. My brother Nick is five and does too. 

Anyway, I don't think you need to believe it's real (and I have to say
I've never met a kid who thought Star Wars or Harry Potter *was* real)
to be traumatized. Nor I am talking about kids under six who probably
haven't even read Harry Potter for the most part.

When I was trying to think of any literary or film analogue to Ever So
Evil Lupin, the closest I could come was the fate of Susan Pevensie in
the Narnia books, which *did* traumatize me at an age older than six.
It's not a real analogue, though, because Lewis doesn't go so far as to
say that Susan ALWAYS didn't care about Narnia. I think it's very bad
writing to have a character change off-screen so drastically, but that's
a different issue than the proposed Lupin evilness, in which we'd
re-interpret on-screen actions in light of a revelation. The only reason
I bring it up is that it's an example of a book where I felt as an
older, clear-eyed, rational kid that the author had betrayed the
characters. 

Anyway, 'The Last Battle' was bad enough for me, but 'Ever So Evil'
Lupin would frankly turn me off HP if I were a child reader. 

Nora:
> But JKR has still presented Lupin as an overall
> positive figure, I think.  He's the Good Teacher to Snape's Bad
> Teacher in PoA, he's abused by life but not a jerk, he and Tonks have
> talked about relationships and may well be an item at the end of the
> book.  Lupin isn't the saint that some of fandom would make him into,
> but he seems to be pretty firmly in the 'positive' category.

Exactly. Being told that someone the author lead you to like and respect
through four books is actually the villain all along. That's pretty
heart-breaking. 

All these concerns don't bar JKR from doing this, though I'll note she's
notoriously soft-hearted. For example, her idea of a lot of deaths is
not the gore-fest we used to imagine post-GOF.

It's just - as I've said before - the fact that I cannot think of ONE
fictional example of a likeable character turning out to have always
been evil  after the first installment of their appearance.

Pippin: 
> If we're talking about whether adults will find it credible, there's
> nothing very radical about an appealing second-string character
> who turns out to be the villain. Christie is full of them. And
> we know who reads Christie, don't we.

Christie does not reveal that the regulars have always been villains. An
appealing second-string character like Roger Ackroyd can turn out to be
bad at the end of the book, just like Tom Riddle in CoS. Or people can
change over the course of the series, according to the circumstances.
Witness 'Final Curtain' where Poirot commits murder (though a lot of
people were rather annoyed even at *that*). There is no denoument where
Poirot realizes that Hastings has *always* been a sociopathic murderer.
Or where Miss Marple realizes Griselda has been slowly poisoning the
Vicar since Book 1.  

> And of course, none of us old fogie knew for sure that Vader was
> Luke's daddy until part way through Return of the Jedi, *years* after
> A New Hope.

Nah, according to that standard of evidence, we *still* don't know. In
fact, in my more excitable moments I can argue lengthily that there are
a great many reasons not to believe Darth Vader in the original trilogy
is actually Anakin Skywalker. Mostly because I can't see that whiny brat
in the prequels as an effective second in command of the galaxy. 

But I presume Lucas intended the issue to be closed. ;-)

Eileen




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Fri Jan 20 23:30:26 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:30:26 -0000
Subject: Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF64F02@...>
Message-ID: <dqrrqi+ubl3@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" <erebstock at c...> wrote:
>
> 
> It's just - as I've said before - the fact that I cannot think of ONE
> fictional example of a likeable character turning out to have always
> been evil  after the first installment of their appearance.
<snip>
> Christie does not reveal that the regulars have always been villains. An
> appealing second-string character like Roger Ackroyd can turn out to be
> bad at the end of the book, just like Tom Riddle in CoS. Or people can
> change over the course of the series, according to the circumstances.
> Witness 'Final Curtain' where Poirot commits murder (though a lot of
> people were rather annoyed even at *that*). There is no denoument where
> Poirot realizes that Hastings has *always* been a sociopathic murderer.
> Or where Miss Marple realizes Griselda has been slowly poisoning the
> Vicar since Book 1.  
> 

Pippin:
Nero Wolfe SPOILER:

Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe mystery _A Family Affair_ has a series regular 
for the villain. It's the last of the series, but then so is HP 7 alas.

Pippin






From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 21 03:21:01 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:21:01 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Lupin and Sirius WAS Re: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BE7@...>
References: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BE7@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601201921u159f46f4ke59ef80812ea1931@...>

Me previously:
> (8)   Friends have deserted him (?) via no picture (next to) with his
> bestest buds in the Order pic and he isn't called upon for Harry's
> baptismal, and one of his bestest buds (that broke all school rules
for
> him)
> thinks he is the Spy on the Order; therefore making Pettigrew the
secret
> keeper instead of himself.

Eileen:


I don't see his friends as having deserted him. More the other way
around. There are subtle indications in the flashback pensieve scene
that Lupin was already drifting away from Sirius and James in his fifth
year. I pegged him there as the kid with the troubled conscience who
tries not to *see* his friends' behaviour. If Sirius set up the prank,
as Lupin tells it, Lupin had further reason to distance himself. I don't
think they outright broke with each other, just drifted apart. I really
don't see Lupin and Sirius as ever being close by themselves without
James, sorry puppyshippers, until PoA, when they embrace each other like
brothers and forgive *everything*, starting with what happened in school
between them. And then they become very close, the two survivors.

Me again:



Different view from what I saw?Lupin sheepishly peeking out from round his
book to see if his friends are taking care of business for him. Lupin's'
friends job is to stop Snape from ruining their good-time outings once a
month. Snape the little pest just wont let them be and if he finds out that
Lupin is a werewolf, Lupin runs the risk of being ousted from the school (in
much the same way that he was (by Snape, how ironic) in POA). Parents
wouldn't want their children exposed to a werewolf at any age.

Now who planned the prank?well we know it was Sirius but why would he?
Sirius spent a lot of time and energy in becoming an Animagus for his friend
Lupin and really enjoyed the outings as much as he did. When you have spent
that much time and energy for the sake of someone, you would tend to become
protective of him. Lupin is his friend and Lupin undoubtedly made Sirius
aware of his concerns that Snape was getting too close to the truth but what
in the world could be done about it. Well who better to whine to than dear
rash Sirius who reacts without thought to any given situation? No time to
even ponder what to do (his friend desperately needs him) via the prank set
up. Later Sirius laughingly (Sirius thought it would be?er?amusing?") tells
James that the whole situation has been handled, which alerts James to make
the quick and sound headed decision to save Snape. Lupin, however, may have
felt a bit betrayed that his friend stopped the prank because no one would
have been the wiser that it was set up by Sirius and the dead body of Snape
would have been seen as Snape's own curiosity getting the better of him.
Situation resolved. Except that James actions ruined everything for Lupin.

After the prank, it's more than reasonable to assume that the good-time
outings were now out of the question. So now Lupin had to transform every
month into a "fully fledged monster" without his friends influence to make
him "less dangerous". What might an almost full-grown fully-fledged monster
do?



I could go on and on but it is merely speculation because we are not told
any specifics about what happened surrounding the entire Prank story (let
alone Lupin's life in the blank period). What we do know though is that
Lupin has already showed at the very least what you'd call bad judgment in
POA when he didn't go to Dumbledore when he saw Pettigrew and Sirius on the
map or of his own admittance, not informing Dumbledore that Sirius had
Animagus ability.



Eileen:



It might be. My instinctive reaction to "Lupin is Ever So Evil" is that
I can't think of *any* author who's set up a character to be loved for
most of a *series*, then revealed at the last moment they were actually
evil all along. A book seems to be the longest those stunts are even
taken. JKR may be doing something completely new, but I instinctively
doubt it, particularly as - let's face it - it'd traumatize child
readers.

Snow:



Ok? how about we tweak the ESE scenario?
Maybe Lupin didn't set out to cause anyone's death (that's not to say he
didn't) or to become an intentional spy; it's just how the cards played out.
Lupin wasn't hanging out with the boys for their once a month escapades ever
since the Prank woke at least one of them up to the dangers. So, Lupin who
admits that those outings were his refuge, now has to do it alone or find
consolation with others with the same affliction except, jeez most of those
guys were under Fenrir's thumb. One bad choice can snowball when you try to
hide what you have done. Lupin kept trying to cover up and dug himself into
a deeper hole. We have already seen him do that with Dumbledore. He's
standing in the shack confessing that he should have told Dumbledore about
Sirius Animagus ability all year and all the while he should have gone
straight to Dumbledore when he saw Pettigrew on the map let alone Sirius. It
took a while for his remorsefulness to set in don't ya think? At first
glance at the map, if he really had felt this way (all year), wouldn't he
have said to himself, there's no turning away from this one I have to tell
Dumbledore right away? But no he was trying to get away with it, fix it
himself like he has always tried to do regardless of who got hurt in the
process. Lupin's reactions cost Sirius a long stint of hiding and Pettigrew
to seek refuge with Voldemort.
All of Lupin's grievances in the shack came down to 'he didn't want to lose
face with Dumbledore after all Dumbledore had done for him. What's a bit of
humility in the face of danger to Harry? Let me see, lose face with
Dumbledore or possibly save Harry's life?hmmmm doesn't exactly equate, there
must be more than Lupin's humility to lose at this point although I'm sure
that's how it started for him, he just couldn't admit that he was at fault
for neither his friends turning into Animagus in the old days for his
accompaniment in escapades that broke school rules at the very least nor to
admit fault now that Sirius (who he supposedly believed to be guilty was on
a map that doesn't lie) had always been able to transform.

Someone like that just keeps trying to mend the first problem, so they don't
have to admit their wrong doing, all the while creating new and bigger ones
until they are in over their head. I don't think Lupin chose to be evil but
his actions or lack-there-of cause him to play better for the opposition
without actually signing up for the team.



I'm pretty sure this type of character could play out for the kiddies that
read Potter because even nice guys make mistakes. The moral of the Lupin
ordeal is not to continue to make them by hiding the first one lest you
become guilty by default.



Snow with apologies to Pippin for (semi) insubordination


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 22 20:44:03 2006
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:44:03 -0000
Subject: Lupin's parents and Fenrir / hypothetical Snape-DD UV
Message-ID: <dr0qqj+fn3c@...>

Rebecca wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3767 :

<< Who were Lupin's parents (particularly his father) such that Fenrir
Greyback should bite Remus in retaliation for some offense the father
did to him? >> 

I have no idea who Remus's parents were, except that apparently one of
them (not certain that it was his father) was a Muggle or Muggle-born.
But it seems not all that difficult to offend Greyback.

<< Who was dear old Dad that he was able to get a furry young Remus
into Hogwarts and have DD agree it to be so? >>

Wouldn't Dumbledore have done it for any child with the same problem?
Like, who was Draco that DD was willing to give up his own life to
prevent Draco's soul from being ripped by committing murder?

<< I ask this because Remus himself says that Fenrir's modus operandi
was "Bite them young" and "raise them away from their parents, raise
them to hate normal wizards." Makes you wonder where he went on
holiday... >>

I imagine that most wizarding parents wouldn't to endure the
difficulties, danger, and social stigma of keeping a lycanthropic
child at home, similar to a time in the US when people who gave birth
to a child with Down's Syndrome usually sent it to be raised in a
State institution. But I imagine that Remus's parents, who 'tried
everything', were not willing to give up their child just because he
had a terrible disease.

Carolyn wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3771 :

<< Was that the first unbreakable vow that Snape had made? Could it be
that the reason that DD had complete faith in the man was, quite
simply, because Snape had sworn an unbreakable vow to support/protect
the Order/Harry..? >>

If so, maybe the reason that Hagrid had such absolute trust in
Professor Snape was that Hagrid was the Bonder in their Unbreakable
Vow spell? Would Hagrid be able to do that much magic?







From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 22 21:14:37 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:14:37 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] re: Lupin's parents and Fenrir / hypothetical Snape-DD UV
In-Reply-To: <dr0qqj+fn3c@...>
References: <dr0qqj+fn3c@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601221314x3a2242d8i55c933199d432d82@...>

Catlady:



<< I ask this because Remus himself says that Fenrir's modus operandi
was "Bite them young" and "raise them away from their parents, raise
them to hate normal wizards." Makes you wonder where he went on
holiday... >>

I imagine that most wizarding parents wouldn't to endure the
difficulties, danger, and social stigma of keeping a lycanthropic
child at home, similar to a time in the US when people who gave birth
to a child with Down's Syndrome usually sent it to be raised in a
State institution. But I imagine that Remus's parents, who 'tried
everything', were not willing to give up their child just because he
had a terrible disease.



Snow nitpicking :)


Just a small correction, which I'm certain you are aware of, that in those
days Down's syndrome kids were discriminatively called Mongoloids because
they all had physical characteristics of a Mongoloid, despite the fact that
all had a different mentality level, they were all treated equally according
to that affliction. Interesting parallel to Lupin's affliction?

Snow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 23 14:26:05 2006
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:26:05 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] re: hypothetical Snape-DD UV
In-Reply-To: <dr0qqj+fn3c@...>
References: <dr0qqj+fn3c@...>
Message-ID: <200601231526.05337.silmariel@...>


> Carolyn wrote in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3771 :
>
> << Was that the first unbreakable vow that Snape had made? Could it be
> that the reason that DD had complete faith in the man was, quite
> simply, because Snape had sworn an unbreakable vow to support/protect
> the Order/Harry..? >>

Catlady:
> If so, maybe the reason that Hagrid had such absolute trust in
> Professor Snape was that Hagrid was the Bonder in their Unbreakable
> Vow spell? Would Hagrid be able to do that much magic?
>

Oh, good guess. Hagrid is the only other character DD has said to trust, and 
I'd say he's not so bad as he's assumed to be. PS ch 5 contains a bit of 
canon to be reevaluated after HBP:

	"The boat Uncle Vernon had hired was still there, with a lot of water in the 
bottom after the storm.
	'How did you get here?' Harry asked, looking around for another boat.
	'Flew,' said Hagrid.
	'Flew?'
	'Yeah - but we'll go back in this. Not s'pposed ter use magic now I got yeh.'
	They settled down in the boat, Harry still staring at Hagrid, trying to 
imagine him flying.
	'Seems a shame ter row, though,' said Hagrid, giving Harry another of his 
sideways looks 'If I was ter - er - speed things up a bit, would yeh mind not 
mentionin' it at Howgarts?'
	'Of course not,' said Harry, ager to see more magic. Hagrid pulled out the 
pink umbrella again, tapped it twice on the side of the boat and they sped 
off towards land."

Unless study plans have changed a lot, if he was expelled in third year, 
somehow he learned nonverbal magic, 3 years far from his apparent level. So 
he might be.

Silmariel



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 23 23:42:29 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:42:29 +0000
Subject: Viewing the evidence
Message-ID: <B5C99A95-B1D4-4B16-B980-C69132B08C85@...>

A long one.
Sorry about that, it grew in the writing. But since it's a mere  
tiddler compared to past posts like Pip!Squeak''s 'Spying Game'  
masterpieces, I hope that will  be excused - even if the quality  
isn't up to those either.

Like an itch one can't quite scratch, that night at GH rankles.
What happened there is important backstory, could even be one of the  
keys to "what it's all about". So once more, like a dog chobbling on  
a well-gnawed bone, here we go again.

This time though, no assumptions, no presumptions, no theories, no  
wishful thinking - or not until the problem has been laid out in  
terms of canon. Strict and unbiased canon, mind - no giving one bit  
more weight than another, no brushing an inconvenient snippet under  
the carpet and hoping it'll go away; and definitely no pseudo-canon  
of the ''it must have happened like this 'cos otherwise I can't make  
it fit the way I want it to'' variety. Tough, I know.

And it gets tougher - you lucky people! - because the intention is to  
pose a wider question that may be applicable to all the outstanding  
mysteries of HP. Can the GH event be explained solely by analysis of  
the canon that is directly or demonstrably connected to it? Or is its  
solution only possible by guessing that apparently irrelevant textual  
detail (i.e. not obviously canonically linked to GH) is needed to  
crack the puzzle? To put it bluntly - analytical logic or inspired  
intuition - which is the best tool? This particular post offers  
facts. What can be made of them? Intuitive thinking is put aside for  
consideration at a later date. So let's look at it exactly as Jo  
gives it to us - sort of as a Black Box problem.

For those not familiar with the term, Black Boxes are imaginary  
constructs generally employed in the physical sciences - there is an  
input A and an  output B. So how/why do we get from A to B? (There is  
no need to postulate that A ---> B - that's already accepted.) The  
desired solution is to figure out what happens in the intervening  
Black Box, usually by asking how A can be transformed to produce B in  
the conditions obtaining and given the accepted limitations of the  
physical properties of A and B. It's considered cheating to propose,  
for example, 'a miracle happens'. Admittedly, magic isn't too distant  
from the miraculous, but for the purposes of the exercise, canon will  
dictate what magic can and cannot do - but it is important that with  
magic the properties of spells are strictly limited to what is  
*provable* by reference to canon, that if possible we add *no*  
potential property or capability that has not been shown in the text.  
Hopefully this will eliminate 'solutions' that rely on guesswork and  
make the whole thing somewhat more manageable.

Just to make it a bit more complicated, we are presented with two  
classes of canon evidence - that from persons (and an object) that  
are known to have been present at the event (primary evidence) and  
comments, opinions or assumptions offered by those who (on the canon  
available so far) were most definitely not present (secondary  
evidence). Mostly the secondary stuff is not particularly helpful,  
nor does it offer much that can't be gleaned (or assumed) from the  
primary evidence. Maybe that's its function - reinforcement of an  
idea already planted or suspected. Or perhaps not.

While it's difficult to imagine an honest author fiddling primary  
evidence, the same does not hold for secondary evidence - not to the  
same degree, anyway. Particularly with a sneaky author addicted (self- 
confessedly) to planting clues and red herrings. And what better way  
than by getting a character to express an opinion or assumption as  
fact, especially if we are not told how/why the character made that  
assumption or determined that fact? It's a bit like hearsay; strictly  
speaking it should be dis-allowed, but since this ain't a court of  
law and since Jo must have had some reason for throwing it in, it  
should be listed - while admitting that caveats loom large.

Oh, dear.
This is the difficult bit. Not so much the accumulation of the  
evidence, it's resisting the overwhelming urge to emphasise, to  
theorise, that causes the clenched teeth and the white knuckles. And  
I'm asking the same from you - if possible look at all the evidential  
canon before contriving a solution that is supported by - or at the  
very least does not conflict with - all the primary evidence. It  
would be unrealistic to expect the secondary evidence to meet the  
same standard for the reasons stated above.

What evidence there is can be found scattered throughout the books,  
and words or events occurring quite late in the series may fit neatly  
(or not) into the Black Box input/output evidence lists - though  
there is a danger that what one reader sees as having relevance may  
not carry any weight with another. Nothing I can do about that, I'm  
afraid, except list it. To someone, somewhere it just might be the  
switch that illuminates that cartoon bulb between the ears.

There's an ancillary event, too - Prophecy Night down the local pub.  
It's more or less universally accepted that this little tete-a-tete  
was the trigger, if not the fons et origo of the GH happenings, and  
what transpired down the boozer has, to a greater or lesser extent  
(and depending on one's inclinations) the potential to upset a number  
of theoretical applecarts.
OK. So what do we actually *know* about it?

Quoting great slabs of text would make this post interminable, as  
would cataloguing repetitions by the same characters at different  
times. Not only that, there'd be a tendency to flick through it - and  
why not? Haven't you read the words x times before? 'Course you have  
- and I'm willing to bet that by the time you were reading it for the  
x-nth time your eyes slid over those sections that didn't support  
your favourite theory of what happened - and may well do so again.  
Naughty reader! So a precis of the relevant points might help  
concentrate the mind - not only yours, mine too. No opinions will be  
voiced, though observations (strictly canonical) and objective  
questions will be appended.
And I'll strive to keep it honest - honest.

Ready?
OK. Off we go. We have:

Pub night:
Divination.
Prophetic trances and Seers.
DD's comments.
Sybill's comments.
The eavesdropper.

GH.
Input - Primary evidence:
Harry's visions.
Voldy's account.
The properties of an AK.
Wand P.I.
The nature of Protective Magic.
The Ministry battle.

Output - Primary evidence:
Dead bodies.
A ruined house.
A live Harry.
The scar.
The transferred powers.
Wand P.I.
Vapor!Mort.

Secondary evidence:
Hagrid's comments.
Quirrell's death.
Lupin's surprise.
DD's comments.
Crouch!Moody's comments.
Jo's comments.

Anything missing?
Nothing of significance, I hope. But if yes, then I humbly apologise.

Now let's put a modicum of flesh on some of those bare bones.

Pub Night.
DD is considering dropping Divination from the curriculum.
He interviews what he considers a talentless 'Seer'.
Who in a trance makes a prophecy of interest to both sides in the war.
It is overheard, the eavesdropper is apprehended.
Sybill identifies the eavesdropper as Snape and DD confirms this.
Snape also was there for a job interview.
Snape tells Voldy.
One year later Snape is spying for DD.
Voldy takes no action on the prophecy for almost two years.

Observations.
Sybill describes "feeling odd"  which is what we are to believe  
depicts a trance state and during which a Seer is supposedly  
oblivious to all around her.
There is a small discrepancy between the two testimonies. Sybill says  
she saw Snape when he 'interrupted' her interview i.e. she was out of  
her trance.
DD insists that Snape only heard half the prophesy (which may also  
conflict with his previous assertion "was detected a short way into  
the prophecy and thrown from the building").
Sybill describes only one period of oddness, which would indicate  
that she had finished her prophesy before she saw Snape.
DD is sceptical about the prophesy, considers it may have been self- 
fulfilling.
On the other hand "thrice defied" is remarkably specific.
Voldy's interpretation of the prophecy points to the Potters and  
Longbottoms and it is this that causes Snape to switch sides.

Q.
Was it by chance that the job interview was held in a pub?
Just how much did Snape hear? Does it matter?
If, as DD suspects, prophesies are self-fulfilling claptrap, does  
that mean Harry doesn't have a 'power the Dark Lord knows not'?
At that time did DD know or suspect that Snape was a wrong 'un?
Is it likely that the thought of a clutch of dead Potters and  
Longbottoms would make Snape recant?
Did Voldy try a soft approach before resorting to death and  
destruction? Is this where the "thrice defied" fits in? And does this  
link to Hagrid's comment "Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who  
never tried to get 'em on his side before."?
  Snape (at the end of HBP) haughty, dismissive of Potter, openly  
committed to Voldy, proud of his service to his master, does not  
throw his betrayal of J&L in Harry's face. Would you expect him to?


GH Input.
Piecing together Harry's visions we get the following sequence:
A warning urging Lily to grab Harry and run, "I'll hold him off"
The door bursting open, a cackle of high-pitched laughter
"Get out of the way, girl"
"Not Harry!",  "Take me instead!... Mercy!" etc.
Shrill laughing
Screaming
Green flash
A high, cold, cruel laugh
(Uncertain if this occurs thrice - depends how one reads Harry's  
thoughts in PS/SS chap.4. But note that all three laughs are  
described slightly differently.)
Voldy backs this up - he kills James, then Lily and the wand PI  
confirms this.
Then he has a few problems.
He intended to kill Harry (Voldy, DD and everybody in the known  
universe confirm).
There is nothing in the PI playback.
Protective magic, emplaced by DD and triggered by Lily sees him off.
Though when DD is asked how Harry survived - "We can only guess... we  
may never know."
It's bloody painful, this discorporation lark.
"The curse rebounded... Pain beyond pain... I was ripped from my body"
".... he's gone" McGonagall
Voldy was painfully expelled from Quirrell's body when the possessed  
Quirrell and Harry came into physical contact. A second Vapor!Mort  
resulted.


GH Output.
Dead bodies (two).
No mention of Voldy making a lovely corpse.
Harry found alive in the rubble of the ruined house and sporting a scar.
An essentially powerless Vapor!Mort takes a long holiday.
At least one (Parseltongue) and according to DD more (unspecified) of  
Voldy's powers have been transferred to Harry.
The scar is some sort of connection between Harry and Voldy.

Observations.
Why was Lupin surprised that Harry heard James's voice?
Harry reports only one green flash - and Lily was killed by one.
Jo has said that Lily was not holding or touching Harry when she was  
killed.
AKs travel in a straight line until they hit something. If it's  
something alive, it dies without a mark on the body; if it's an  
inanimate object, it sustains moderate damage.
According to Crouch!Moody there is no counter-curse, it cannot be  
blocked magically. Yet he also says that Harry survived one. Both  
statements cannot be true.
In the finale of the Ministry battle quite a few AKs get thrown. DD,  
the originator of the protective magic for Harry, uses no shield  
against them - they either miss and knock bits of statues and set a  
kiosk afire, or something solid interposes itself between the curse  
and DD. None bounced, even  when striking a charmed or magical object.
The protective magic appears to consist of two spells.
One is the part that prevented Voldy from touching Harry, negated  
when Voldy uses Harry's blood in his resurrection stew. The other  
protects Harry while he can call Privet Drive his home - and  
according to DD was still active during HBP. Neither protected  
against Voldy's wand when Peter was wielding it.
Voldy's basic plan, generally accepted by most fans - walk in, kill  
the kid, walk out. This is contradicted by his words in the graveyard  
"... a protection I admit I had not foreseen..... I could not touch  
the boy. [...] but no matter, I can touch him now." And he does so.
PI  replays the physical effects of spells.
The wand PI is entirely blank for the attack on Harry's person.
There is no clue as to what bounced back on Voldy or what it was that  
demolished the house.


Q.
Why didn't Lily grab Harry and run?
Why is there a scar and just what is it, exactly?
Did Voldy try to touch Harry?
What happened to Voldy's body?
What exactly is Vapor!Mort?
Is the Privet Drive spell a replacement conjured by DD for a similar  
charm that applied to GH? Or does it work wherever the closest living  
blood relative resides?
If the protection was unable to shield Harry when Peter uses Voldy's  
wand, just what protection is provided? Is it specifically anti-Voldy?
Which spell was invoked by Lily's sacrifice - the 'where your blood  
dwells' or the Voldy no-touch charm?
Did Harry gain powers solely because Voldy lost them when  
discorporating?
If Harry had died at Quirrell's hands in PS/SS, would Voldy have got  
his powers back?
In PS/SS did Harry's magical quotient increase by the small amount  
that a very weak Voldy had rebuilt before vaporising?
Did taking Harry's blood return to Voldy powers that had previously  
been transferred to Harry?
Why was there no reaction when Harry and Quirrell shake hands in the  
Leaky Cauldron, even though Quirrell states "He is with me wherever I  
go."? Can the protection distinguish between evil and evil intent and  
react accordingly?


Jo's comments.
Jo has said very little about GH, though whether this is through  
authorial  caution or because she hasn't been asked the right  
questions at the right time is up for grabs. She suggests it's the  
latter.
However, the relative importance of the events at GH on the main plot  
was underlined when the Q&A session from last year's Book Festival in  
Edinburgh was reproduced in the 'News' section of her website. The  
'hint' was not prompted by a question, she volunteered it, indeed  
seemed a touch concerned that nobody was asking it - "Why didn't  
Voldy die at GH? The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died.  
Why didn't he?"

"Hossclucks!" shouts Carolyn from the sidelines.
And this is the gist of what's in HBP.
But Jo asked this question after HBP had been published.
Why? There was no need to, was there?
And though it might explain why he didn't actually die there are  
still a lot of other things up in the air.

There is no indication if this is the question Jo (knowing all the  
answers) would ask - or if it's the question she'd expect from  
someone who hasn't yet been told what actually transpired at GH.  
Tricky. As usual.

Why am I not surprised that Harry is going back to GH in book 7?
And it was paired with another unprompted hint - "Why didn't DD try  
to kill Voldy at the MoM?" (She admits that the reason given in the  
text is not the true reason.)
"Hoss-" Yes, OK Carolyn. We get the message.

In essence - the Black Box question - what magic was invoked against  
Harry and why did it produce the results described in the text?

Can the GH mystery be solved using the above canon with no need for  
additional assumptions?
I know what I think - but that's for another post.

Kneasy



From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 13:29:50 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:29:50 -0000
Subject: hypothetical Snape-DD UV
In-Reply-To: <200601231526.05337.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dr5a4e+fb5m@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Carolyn wrote in
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3771 :
> >
> > << Was that the first unbreakable vow that Snape had made? Could it be
> > that the reason that DD had complete faith in the man was, quite
> > simply, because Snape had sworn an unbreakable vow to support/protect
> > the Order/Harry..? >>
> 

Pippin:
I think even if Snape chose to do such a thing, it would undermine the
ideal embodied by Lily's sacrifice and Dumbledore's faith that Wormtail
will eventually turn on his master: that love, loyalty, gratitude and all the 
other things that make up our sense of obligation to one other are 
stronger than fear. I don't think Dumbledore would want Snape to 
take the vow even if Snape wanted to,  because it would weaken 
Snape to trust fear more than love.

Voldemort absolutely cannot understand this. He does not believe
that any of his servants are loyal to him, indeed he scarcely 
comprehends that loyalty exists. It does not matter to him that
any of his servants have lingering ties to others, in fact he glories
in forcing them to renege -- that is why he accepts Wormtail's
declaration that Harry Potter means nothing to him.


Pippin






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 14:05:16 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:05:16 -0000
Subject: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <B5C99A95-B1D4-4B16-B980-C69132B08C85@...>
Message-ID: <dr5c6s+665h@...>

Thanks for the analysis, Kneasy! I hope it  won't seem ungrateful to
provide a couple of quibbles.

> Why was there no reaction when Harry and Quirrell shake hands in the  
> Leaky Cauldron, even though Quirrell states "He is with me wherever I  
> go."? Can the protection distinguish between evil and evil intent and  
> react accordingly?

Pippin:
Quirrell was not possessed at this point, since he had not yet donned
the turban.   Dark Mark bearers can touch Harry --Wormtail 
hits him, Fake!Moody supports him as he's being led to the DADA office, 
and Snape grabs him in the Pensieve, then throws him on the floor of
his office.

Kneasy:
> However, the relative importance of the events at GH on the main plot  
> was underlined when the Q&A session from last year's Book Festival in  
> Edinburgh was reproduced in the 'News' section of her website. The  
> 'hint' was not prompted by a question, she volunteered it, indeed  
> seemed a touch concerned that nobody was asking it - "Why didn't  
> Voldy die at GH? The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died.  
> Why didn't he?"
> 
> "Hossclucks!" shouts Carolyn from the sidelines.
> And this is the gist of what's in HBP.
> But Jo asked this question after HBP had been published.
> Why? There was no need to, was there?
> And though it might explain why he didn't actually die there are  
> still a lot of other things up in the air.

Pippin:
You've got your timeline scrambled. Jo originally asked this question
at the Book Fair in Edinborough in 2004. She repeated it in 2005
after HBP had been published, when she was asked if there was
a question  she had expected would be asked which had not been.
But she said that those who had finished reading HBP now knew
the answer.

Pippin







From kirst_inn at kirstinipie.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 14:29:51 2006
From: kirst_inn at kirstinipie.yahoo.invalid (Kirstin Innes)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:29:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Quick question
In-Reply-To: <1138107743.307.57639.m19@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20060124142951.72143.qmail@...>

Caveat: I know you never hear from me round these
parts, but I read every digest faithfully.

Something that has been bothering me for a while - can
anyone point me in the direction of a (presumably TOL)
post explaining the way the seven tasks in PS
correalate with the seven books? I know it's a
recognised theory, and thinking through it myself I
can see that it makes a lot of sense. However, I was
lying in bed the other night trying to work out how
they all equalled up - tasks, books - and I couldn't
for the life of me make or PS, CS fit satisfactorily,
and I'm a little wobbly on POA/GOF, too. Here's as far
as I got (all a bit scrappy/notey):

First Task: Fluffy - music, already done for them.
Correalation - PS -?? Quirrel didn't deliberately try
and get Harry to follow him. Evil has three heads
(Snape/Quirrel/Voldemort)? Fighting the Dark Arts is
like fighting a many-headed monster? If music be the
food of sleep, Celestina Warbuck is the key to the
series? 

Second: Devil's Snare. Use fire? A combination of the
Trio''s wits? - CS - ?? This doesn't quite seem right,
because CS is very obviously a "hero goes it alone"
finale.

Third: Flitwick's flying keys. You have to pick the
right one - POA - No, no, you've got the wrong
villain?

Fourth: Troll, already knocked out by Quirrelmort, who
has a way with them. I have no idea how this relates
to GOF. Cedric is presumably not being analogised to a
troll here. Possibly that V's faithful servant has
already gone ahead and won the game for Harry?

Fifth: Chess game. OOP is very like a chess game, with
the Order versus the Death Eaters. A beloved friend
sacrifices himself. I understand this one.

Sixth: Snape's potion task. HBP - The Potions Book!
Foregrounding Snape - also, once Harry has drunk the
potion there's no turning back. This makes perfect
sense too.

Seventh: Erised and the final confrontation with
Voldemort. Harry has to use his guileless heart to
overcome/Harry is confronted with his own reflection/
Luke, I am your father/ etc etc. V dies, Harry
collapses into blackness....scar.

Can anyone help me out, either with a quick outline or
a link? Any enlightenment at all very much
appreciated.

And sorry to pick at nits, Kneas (knits knees? nit's
knees?), but Jo asked "why didn't V die when the
killing curse rebounded" at the Book Festival in 2004
- before HBP and the hossclucking. I remember this
because I was living in Edinburgh at the time, had a
ticket and had to miss it because I couldn't get the
time off work. I hate correcting people like this. I
feel all smug and dirty.
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/news_view.cfm?id=80
However, I can't wait to see the way this post runs.

Kirstin(i) on a very rare surfacing. 


		
___________________________________________________________ 
NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 15:08:18 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:08:18 -0000
Subject: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <dr5c6s+665h@...>
Message-ID: <dr5ft2+m9s0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> Quirrell was not possessed at this point, since he had not yet donned
> the turban.   Dark Mark bearers can touch Harry --Wormtail 
> hits him, Fake!Moody supports him as he's being led to the DADA office, 
> and Snape grabs him in the Pensieve, then throws him on the floor of
> his office.
>

Possibly film contamination. God rot Warner Bros.
I just checked - my PS is silent on the subject of whether Q was wearing
any headgear at the LC. If he was it probably wasn't a turban, judging
by Harry's observations at the Sorting Feast. But I can't find any
actual canon that definitatively states whether V was or wasn't mounted.
Dunno if Jo has said anything, too idle to check. Anyway, it's a minor point
in terms of the overall post, I'd have thought - though no doubt fascinating
for some.

Dark Marks are not critical in the protection racket - they're only a
magical paging system, after all. 

> 
> Pippin:
> You've got your timeline scrambled. Jo originally asked this question
> at the Book Fair in Edinborough in 2004. She repeated it in 2005
> after HBP had been published, when she was asked if there was
> a question  she had expected would be asked which had not been.
> But she said that those who had finished reading HBP now knew
> the answer.
> 

Yup.
I had a suspicion that was so 30 seconds after posting. 
No matter; if it was wrong somebody was bound to point it out quickly
- the first responses to a long post generally consist of canon quibbles. 
The imaginative replies (if any) arrive later.
But I still reckon to be marginally better at calculating years than Jo is.

Kneasy






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 15:48:06 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:48:06 -0000
Subject: Quick question
In-Reply-To: <20060124142951.72143.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <dr5i7m+e5mp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kirstin Innes <kirst_inn at y...> wrote:
>
> Caveat: I know you never hear from me round these
> parts, but I read every digest faithfully.
> 
> Something that has been bothering me for a while - can
> anyone point me in the direction of a (presumably TOL)
> post explaining the way the seven tasks in PS
> correalate with the seven books? I know it's a
> recognised theory, and thinking through it myself I
> can see that it makes a lot of sense. However, I was
> lying in bed the other night trying to work out how
> they all equalled up - tasks, books - and I couldn't
> for the life of me make or PS, CS fit satisfactorily,
> and I'm a little wobbly on POA/GOF, too. Here's as far
> as I got (all a bit scrappy/notey):

Pippin:

Here's one theory
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-sylvia02.shtml

Here's my version:

First task -- Fluffy, three headed monster.
     Two-faced Quirrell plus Voldemort's hidden accomplice (Snape or ?)

Second task -- Devil's Snare 
     Harry is trapped in the chamber and rescued by the Firebird

Third task-- keys
    Harry rescues a prisoner

Fourth task -- chess tournament (you got confused on the order)
    The Triwizard tournament

Fifth task -- the dead Troll
    Harry accepts death and moves on

Sixth task -- potions puzzle
    Snape  and a reverse logic puzzle. It's impossible to solve the
bottle puzzle as given, but knowing the solution you can reconstruct
two possible initial orders of the bottles.  Interestingly, it's the
third and fourth bottles that are ambiguous, suggesting to me
that the bottles might correspond to the DADA teachers.
For more on the riddle see

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-potionriddle.html

Seventh task --Mirror of Erised
  Harry will discover the hidden accomplice (NOT who he expects)
and achieve his hearts desire. 


Pippin






From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 16:30:36 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:30:36 -0000
Subject: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <B5C99A95-B1D4-4B16-B980-C69132B08C85@...>
Message-ID: <dr5knc+jag7@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> Like an itch one can't quite scratch, that night at GH rankles.
> What happened there is important backstory, could even be one of the  
> keys to "what it's all about". So once more, like a dog chobbling on  
> a well-gnawed bone, here we go again.

Anne:
*rubs hands in anticipation*  Ooooh, perfect -- and well worthwhile, I
think.


Kneasy:
> Pub Night.
<snip> 
> Observations.
> Sybill describes "feeling odd"  which is what we are to believe  
> depicts a trance state and during which a Seer is supposedly  
> oblivious to all around her.
> There is a small discrepancy between the two testimonies. Sybill says  
> she saw Snape when he 'interrupted' her interview i.e. she was out of  
> her trance.
> DD insists that Snape only heard half the prophesy (which may also  
> conflict with his previous assertion "was detected a short way into  
> the prophecy and thrown from the building").
> Sybill describes only one period of oddness, which would indicate  
> that she had finished her prophesy before she saw Snape.

Anne:
We have to remember that Dumbledore's and Trelawney's accounts may
both be true -- if we allow that DD failed to tell Harry the *whole*
truth in OoP i.e., presumably leaving out a part about Aberforth
showing Snape to DD before throwing him out.

In any case, maybe we should at least add that DD paled visibly when
Harry informed him that Trelawney had named Snape as the evesdropper.


Kneasy:
> Did Harry gain powers solely because Voldy lost them when  
> discorporating?
<snip>
> Did taking Harry's blood return to Voldy powers that had previously  
> been transferred to Harry?


Anne:
LV speaks Parseltongue in Ugly Baby form in the presence of Frank
Bryce, before taking any of Harry's blood.  The conclusion seems to be
that LV did not *lose* powers to Harry at GH, but rather *shared* them.

Kneasy:
> Why was there no reaction when Harry and Quirrell shake hands in the  
> Leaky Cauldron, even though Quirrell states "He is with me wherever I  
> go."? Can the protection distinguish between evil and evil intent and  
> react accordingly?

Pippin:
> Quirrell was not possessed at this point, since he had not yet donned
> the turban. Dark Mark bearers can touch Harry --Wormtail
> hits him, Fake!Moody supports him as he's being led to the DADA office,
> and Snape grabs him in the Pensieve, then throws him on the floor of
> his office.
>

Kneasy again:
Possibly film contamination. God rot Warner Bros.
I just checked - my PS is silent on the subject of whether Q was wearing
any headgear at the LC. If he was it probably wasn't a turban, judging
by Harry's observations at the Sorting Feast. But I can't find any
actual canon that definitatively states whether V was or wasn't mounted.

Anne:
For what it's worth, the most canon we have is at the end of PS/SS,
where Quirrell says that after he'd failed to steal the Stone at
Gringott's, LV 'decided to keep a closer watch on [him].'  The Daily
Prophet report (ch. 8) puts the burglary attempt *after* the vault had
been emptied.  If you believe the DP and interpret the 'closer watch'
as the possession (and, if you like, bolster your conclusions with
Harry's reaction to the turban at the Welcoming Feast), there's your
answer. Your Skepticism May Vary, but I'm satisfied.

Kneasy:
> Dark Marks are not critical in the protection racket - they're only a
> magical paging system, after all.

Anne:
Ooooh.  Before the hyphen, I'll grant it to you, but everything after
it is shaky ground and thin ice.


Sorry there's no in-depth analysis and creative theorising yet, but
it's probably better to nail down all the facts first and let them
ferment a bit, anyway.  Thanks for reemphasising the bit about what LV
did at GH, because it's a section where I very definitely had some
shaky assumptions masquerading in my head as canon.

I also apologise if any glaring errors appear in this post; I'm just
back from the eye doctor and my pupils are still hugely dilated.

Anne








From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 15:31:07 2006
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:31:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Quick question
In-Reply-To: <20060124142951.72143.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <20060124153107.78769.qmail@...>

Kirstini wrote:

>>>Something that has been bothering me for a while -
can
anyone point me in the direction of a (presumably TOL)
post explaining the way the seven tasks in PS
correalate with the seven books? I know it's a
recognised theory, and thinking through it myself I
can see that it makes a lot of sense. However, I was
lying in bed the other night trying to work out how
they all equalled up - tasks, books - and I couldn't
for the life of me make or PS, CS fit satisfactorily,
and I'm a little wobbly on POA/GOF, too.<<<


SSSusan:
It seems the "biggie" post on this topic was Iris'
here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46992


A few other posts I skimmed while looking for this,
which might be of interest:

Annemehr's:  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90377

HannahMarder's  a criticism of the notion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126796

Valky's  quite different, but about the 7 tasks & the
7 horcruxes:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/133693


Siriusly Snapey Susan





From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 18:00:59 2006
From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:00:59 -0000
Subject: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <B5C99A95-B1D4-4B16-B980-C69132B08C85@...>
Message-ID: <dr5q0r+h8s3@...>

A canon quibble, and a couple of lame attempts at answering good 
questions.

> Snape also was there for a job interview.

Dung:
Trelawney says that Snape "...was seeking a job at the time, and no 
doubt hoped to pick up tips!" (HBP p509 UK) No mention of Snape 
being there for an interview too. Of course, he *could* have been - 
but you wanted no interpretation, just bare canon.

> Voldy's interpretation of the prophecy points to the Potters and  
> Longbottoms and it is this that causes Snape to switch sides.

Dung:
No canon quibbles ? just going boggle-eyed in shock...

> Did Voldy try a soft approach before resorting to death and  
> destruction? Is this where the "thrice defied" fits in? And does 
this link to Hagrid's comment "Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-
Who never tried to get 'em on his side before."?

Dung: Quite possibly - see also why Sirius' parents thought Voldy 
had the right idea before he showed his true colours.

> What exactly is Vapor!Mort?

Dung:
Don't think I can do this without a couple of assumptions, but I'll 
give it a go, pointing them out where I can.

(Assumption #1) The usual split is body/mind/soul and JKR mentions 
all three so I'm going with that. A soul-sucked person has no soul 
and (in the Potterverse) therefore no mind. A ghost has a mind but 
no body. (Assumption #2) Presumably a ghost still has a soul that 
hasn't passed on to wherever these things go, since you need a soul 
to have a mind, and they appear to be conscious thinking things. 
>From Diary!Tom, we see that even a small piece of soul is enough to 
have a mind. Vapour!Mort had a mind (since he can think well enough 
to build up a good stock of resentment towards his loyal followers 
while in exile) and a bit of shredded soul. So he was probably just 
composed of soul. In which case, why did he not look like a ghost?

Additionally, does a disembodied soul retain its magical powers?

The only power remaining to Vapour!Mort was possession, which 
doesn't require a wand (or he wouldn't have been able to do it.) DD 
states clearly that no matter how tattered Voldy's soul gets, nor 
how many hotcookies are destroyed, his mind and powers remain 
unaffected - to the extent that he's probably not even aware of 
their destruction. But DD also says that Voldy has no understanding 
of how powerful a pure and untarnished soul can be, which is 
somewhat contradictory. 

We never see any of the Hogwarts ghosts using magic, but Harry has 
never actually asked whether they can or not. It might be 
significant that although NHN has a ghostly ruff, he has no ghostly 
wand, and couldn't pick a real one up anyway. We have two choices, 
neither ruled out or in by canon: 1. Ghosts might still have their 
magical powers, and therefore be able to do 'uncontrolled wandless' 
magic (though it's supposed to emerge when stressed, and since 
they're already dead, they shouldn't be scared of much.) 2. There is 
something about dying and coming back as a ghost that stops you 
being able to access your magic. 

Ok, I give up on the strict adherence to canon altogether (that 
didn't last long), here's some speculation:
The Bloody Baron doesn't say much, does he? He's not quite as human-
seeming as NHN or the fat friar. One possibility is that 
when alive he was a murderer (he's the Slytherin ghost, he seems to 
have met with a violent end himself - it's not that much of a 
stretch), so his soul is more tattered than NHN's, which could be 
why he's less functional as a ghost. Which would explain why Vapour!
Mort was 'less than the meanest ghost' - his tattered soul was 
knackered from all the killing sprees.


And the biggie:
> Can the GH mystery be solved using the above canon with no need 
for additional assumptions? I know what I think - but that's for 
another post.

Dung:
The flippant answer is "ask again after book 7". A slightly less 
flippant answer is "we wouldn't be discussing it if we didn't think 
we had some chance." But really? I doubt it can be done without a 
lucky guess or two (perhaps no-one will, even then), hopefully 
guided by some themes and meta-thinking. 

Dungrollin







From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 15:47:52 2006
From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (Susan Albrecht)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:47:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <dr5ft2+m9s0@...>
Message-ID: <20060124154752.83978.qmail@...>

Pippin:
> > Quirrell was not possessed at this point, since he
had not 
> > yet donned the turban.   

Kneasy:
> Possibly film contamination. God rot Warner Bros.  I
just 
> checked - my PS is silent on the subject of whether
Q was 
> wearing any headgear at the LC. If he was it
probably wasn't a 
> turban, judging by Harry's observations at the
Sorting Feast. 
> But I can't find any actual canon that
definitatively states 
> whether V was or wasn't mounted.


SSSusan:
I'm almost positive we know he was NOT yet glommed
onto Quirrell's head at the LC.  Not only is the
"ridiculous turban" first mentioned at the opening
feast, but I thought in the final confrontation w/
Quirrell, Q. tells Harry outright that, **after** Q.
botched the Gringotts PS/SS theft, THEN he decided he
needed to "stick by" Q. more closely and so actually
possessed him then.

I'm  without the books at the moment, but pretty sure
on this one.


Kneasy:
> the first responses to a long post generally consist
of canon 
> quibbles. The imaginative replies (if any) arrive
later.

SSSusan:
Sorry, there.  No imaginative replies from me.

Siriusly Snapey Susan




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 21:40:55 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:40:55 -0000
Subject: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <dr5q0r+h8s3@...>
Message-ID: <dr66t7+kqdh@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" <spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
> 
> > Voldy's interpretation of the prophecy points to the Potters and  
> > Longbottoms and it is this that causes Snape to switch sides.
> 
> Dung:
> No canon quibbles ? just going boggle-eyed in shock...
> 

Yes. I always enjoy a good joke, and if I'd been Harry this comment
by DD would have had me laughing 'till the tears ran down me leg.
How on earth does DD manage to keep a straight face?

'Course, it'll get the LOLLIPOPS ladies in a bit of a tizzy, but they
deserve a bit of excitement every now and then - like once every
five years - 'cos AFAIK this is the first hint in canon that Sevvy
could be cast as Quasimodo to Lily's Esmeralda - and look how she 
finished up. Suspended sentence. Sort of. 
Wonder what happened to the goat? Lunch, probably. 

> > What exactly is Vapor!Mort?
> 
> Dung:
> Don't think I can do this without a couple of assumptions, but I'll 
> give it a go, pointing them out where I can.
> 
> (Assumption #1) The usual split is body/mind/soul and JKR mentions 
> all three so I'm going with that. A soul-sucked person has no soul 
> and (in the Potterverse) therefore no mind. A ghost has a mind but 
> no body. (Assumption #2) Presumably a ghost still has a soul that 
> hasn't passed on to wherever these things go, since you need a soul 
> to have a mind, and they appear to be conscious thinking things. 
> From Diary!Tom, we see that even a small piece of soul is enough to 
> have a mind. Vapour!Mort had a mind (since he can think well enough 
> to build up a good stock of resentment towards his loyal followers 
> while in exile) and a bit of shredded soul. So he was probably just 
> composed of soul. In which case, why did he not look like a ghost?
> 

Um.
Not too keen on the theological metaphysics, myself. Particularly
as Jo is setting her own rules and definitions. Makes it tricky.
In my own mind I consider Vapor!Mort as anima - a disembodied
life force. It has potential, will, drive, etc, but no substance and so
is powerless to act independently. Not sure my construct can be 
torn along the dotted line into neat, self-contained segments, so
I'm probably wrong. 

Mind you, what we think of when we use the term Vapor!Mort is 
almost ertainly down to film contamination. I know it is with me - 
that horizontal tornado thingy. It's never described in the books.

Still, it'll be interesting to see if Jo presents a coherent and 
comprehensible explanation of what she means by 'soul' or 'mind',
but I bet she doesn't.

Kneasy









From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 24 22:25:29 2006
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:25:29 -0000
Subject: Heaping vow upon vow/Viewing the evidence
Message-ID: <dr69gp+femm@...>

> Carolyn:
>
> Was that the first unbreakable vow that Snape had made? Could it be 
> that the reason that DD had complete faith in the man was, quite 
> simply, because Snape had sworn an unbreakable vow to 
support/protect the Order/Harry..?

Neri:
There's no need for another UV just for that. A Life Debt to James 
would work just as well, and doesn't require any further assumptions. 
The canon is already supplied. For more details see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/145024

Now, if you also want Snape to be indebted to Dumbledore, that too 
could be arranged, but would require a few speculations regarding how 
Life Debts work. Nothing really out there, though. The details are in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/140493

Neri

Carolyn:
Hm, missed these posts - don't visit TOL much these days. Glad that 
Faith seems to be getting pretty desperate: surely she must get her 
stilettoes stuck in one of the many worm-ridden decks at some point? 
I should desist your Health & Safety inspections - you never know 
your luck, she'd might break her neck or at least fall into the 
bilges where she belongs. But nevertheless concerned that you appear 
to have succumbed to a bout of SHIPping fever .. trust you are fully 
recovered from the madness?

My obvious response is that an unbreakable vow could have been the 
mechanism that DD used to transfer Snape's life debt from James to 
Harry, if the LD is really that important. I quite liked Del's theory 
that life debt's were about keeping people alive, and you were only 
in trouble if your debtee died due to your carelessness. I can 
imagine Snape's horror and exasperation when he found that giving 
Voldy the information about the prophecy accidentally put his own 
life in great danger. Certainly prefer it to LOLLIPOPS or variants 
thereof.

It's a possibility, but meanwhile our man from the Welsh borders is 
having another run at the 'facts', and although no doubt it'll all 
end in another round of possession theory, there's no doubt that he's 
on to something: what happened in the pub muddies the waters as to 
when Snape changed sides.

Kneasy:
There is a small discrepancy between the two testimonies. Sybill says 
she saw Snape when he 'interrupted' her interview i.e. she was out of 
her trance.
DD insists that Snape only heard half the prophesy (which may also 
conflict with his previous assertion "was detected a short way into 
the prophecy and thrown from the building").
Was it by chance that the job interview was held in a pub?
Just how much did Snape hear? Does it matter?

Anne:
We have to remember that Dumbledore's and Trelawney's accounts may
both be true -- if we allow that DD failed to tell Harry the *whole*
truth in OoP i.e., presumably leaving out a part about Aberforth
showing Snape to DD before throwing him out.

In any case, maybe we should at least add that DD paled visibly when
Harry informed him that Trelawney had named Snape as the evesdropper.

Carolyn:
If you re-read Ch 25, the whole explanation gets dodgier and dodgier 
IMO. Why on earth did DD go to the pub to talk to Trelawny, and not 
just the pub but up to her bedroom? And how come Snape knew where DD 
was? It seems clear that the silly old bat had no real idea what 
happened:

'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and 
there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was 
waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm 
afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended 
eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore - you see, he himself 
was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips!'

If we take anything away from what she says, it seems that Snape may 
already have applied for a job at Hogwarts and may have been rumbled 
by DD. Perhaps DD allowed himself to be followed to the Hogs Head, 
and arranged for Snape to be caught by Aberforth. DD certainly may 
not have known Sybill would come out with a 'real' prophecy, but 
subsequently saw advantage in encouraging Snape to repeat the bit 
that he'd heard to Voldy.

Alternatively, Snape heard most of it, already had reasons to turn 
from Voldy, and agreed willingly to spy for DD. Certainly DD must 
have had a subsequent interview with Snape if Aberforth definitely 
captured him outside the door.

Carolyn












From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 25 00:58:22 2006
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:58:22 -0000
Subject: Heaping vow upon vow/Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <dr69gp+femm@...>
Message-ID: <dr6ife+6n7h@...>

> Anne:
> We have to remember that Dumbledore's and Trelawney's accounts may
> both be true -- if we allow that DD failed to tell Harry the *whole*
> truth in OoP i.e., presumably leaving out a part about Aberforth
> showing Snape to DD before throwing him out.

> 
> Carolyn:
> If you re-read Ch 25, the whole explanation gets dodgier and dodgier 
> IMO. Why on earth did DD go to the pub to talk to Trelawny, and not 
> just the pub but up to her bedroom? And how come Snape knew where DD 
> was? It seems clear that the silly old bat had no real idea what 
> happened:
> 
> 'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and 
> there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was 
> waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm 
> afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended 
> eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore - you see, he himself 
> was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips!'

Anne:
I only meant the scene *could* have unfolded the way DD and Trelawney
describe together. I.E:

1. Interview ends; Trelawney starts prophesying -- meanwhile, Snape is
evesdropping.

2. Midway through prophecy, Aberforth apprehends Snape; commotion
ensues, which prevents Snape from hearing any more of Trelawney --
meanwhile, DD finishes listening to the prophecy.

3. Trelawney finishes and comes to; hears end of commotion, and
Aberforth takes Snape into the room.


As to why DD met Sybil in the Hogs Head (apart from plot
considerations, I mean), we can only speculate.  It was at the height
of VWI; perhaps DD had a policy of admitting as few strangers as
possible into Hogwarts grounds.

Once Snape became DDM, he could have told DD exactly how much prophecy
he did overhear, or even provide a memory -- meaning DD could have
known this before the attack at GH, even if he hadn't already deduced
it from noting when the commotion in the hallway began.

As for Snape knowing where DD was, he may have got lucky and seen him
go up.  Or, there was some other bit of luck.  Or, Wormtail heard
Dumbledore chatting about the upcoming interview after the end of an
Order meeting and reported it. LV's side just got lucky somehow (no
fair Harry having all the luck, anyway).  Or, yes, as you speculate,
maybe DD allowed himself to be followed -- the occasion of a harmless
job interview might serve double-duty to help flush out a LV supporter.

*If* I was in the habit of applying Occam's razor to JKR's plots, I
would say that this is all that happened.  As it is, unless I've
overlooked something big, I think this is the way it *may* have happened.

I also think that, by the end of that night, DD concluded Snape would
be carrying his half of the prophecy to LV.

Anne
also figuring DD used his pensieve to nail down the exact point the
commotion began in the hallway (assuming there was one), as well as
doublechecking any of the wording he may have missed the first time around








From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 25 02:14:02 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:14:02 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Viewing the evidence
References: <dr5q0r+h8s3@...>
Message-ID: <009c01c62155$03a7c060$6701a8c0@...>


>Dungrollin said:

>Ok, I give up on the strict adherence to canon altogether (that
>didn't last long), here's some speculation:
>The Bloody Baron doesn't say much, does he? He's not quite as human-
>seeming as NHN or the fat friar. One possibility is that
>when alive he was a murderer (he's the Slytherin ghost, he seems to
>have met with a violent end himself - it's not that much of a
>stretch), so his soul is more tattered than NHN's, which could be
>why he's less functional as a ghost. Which would explain why Vapour!
>Mort was 'less than the meanest ghost' - his tattered soul was
>knackered from all the killing sprees.

Rebecca:

I'll join you in non-canon land and raise you twenty. :)  Other than I agree 
that it's more than possible JKR hid Grindelwald in plain view of everybody, 
who else would Peeves be afraid of and the rest of the ghosts avoid?

Rebecca







From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 25 03:13:11 2006
From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (Kathy King)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:13:11 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <B5C99A95-B1D4-4B16-B980-C69132B08C85@...>
References: <B5C99A95-B1D4-4B16-B980-C69132B08C85@...>
Message-ID: <a1ee8d580601241913y275c5b24ud6c69ed444875909@...>

Kneasy:



This time though, no assumptions, no presumptions, no theories, no
wishful thinking - or not until the problem has been laid out in
terms of canon. Strict and unbiased canon, mind - no giving one bit
more weight than another, no brushing an inconvenient snippet under
the carpet and hoping it'll go away; and definitely no pseudo-canon
of the ''it must have happened like this 'cos otherwise I can't make
it fit the way I want it to'' variety. Tough, I know.

Snow:



I agree that assumptions can blur the vision of the truth. An example I can
think of regarding GH, off the top of my head, is that James was in the
house when Voldemort killed him. We don't specifically know that James was
killed inside the house. Voldemort states that he killed James first then
Lily, we know that someone (a man) said take Harry and run, we know that
there were only two bodies discovered in the rubble (we aren't even told
whether or not the bodies were in a recognizable state). Curious isn't
it?only half of the information given. Got to go back to raw details, which
might include what we purposely haven't been told in order to get there?a
sort of negative canon.





Kneasy:



And it gets tougher - you lucky people! - because the intention is to
pose a wider question that may be applicable to all the outstanding
mysteries of HP. Can the GH event be explained solely by analysis of
the canon that is directly or demonstrably connected to it? Or is its
solution only possible by guessing that apparently irrelevant textual
detail (i.e. not obviously canonically linked to GH) is needed to
crack the puzzle? To put it bluntly - analytical logic or inspired
intuition - which is the best tool? This particular post offers
facts. What can be made of them? Intuitive thinking is put aside for
consideration at a later date. So let's look at it exactly as Jo
gives it to us - sort of as a Black Box problem.



>snipped throughout<


Just to make it a bit more complicated, we are presented with two
classes of canon evidence - that from persons (and an object) that
are known to have been present at the event (primary evidence) and
comments, opinions or assumptions offered by those who (on the canon
available so far) were most definitely not present (secondary
evidence). Mostly the secondary stuff is not particularly helpful,
nor does it offer much that can't be gleaned (or assumed) from the
primary evidence. Maybe that's its function - reinforcement of an
idea already planted or suspected. Or perhaps not.

While it's difficult to imagine an honest author fiddling primary
evidence, the same does not hold for secondary evidence - not to the
same degree, anyway. Particularly with a sneaky author addicted (self-
confessedly) to planting clues and red herrings. And what better way
than by getting a character to express an opinion or assumption as
fact, especially if we are not told how/why the character made that
assumption or determined that fact? It's a bit like hearsay; strictly
speaking it should be dis-allowed, but since this ain't a court of
law and since Jo must have had some reason for throwing it in, it
should be listed - while admitting that caveats loom large.

Snow:



Facts only get you so far in the world of Rowling. Little tid-bits of
information from characters (that many cannot decide to this day whether or
not they are trustworthy to give information) spewed throughout six novels.
Who do we trust to give us information: Snape, Lupin, Sirius, Dumbledore,
Fudge? This makes it quite difficult to pinpoint factual information because
if any of them were evil, there facts would need to be scrutinized, which
gives way to theorizing according to your favorite villain.  Dumbledore is
the most useful tool but then again he talks in rhymes and riddles (much
like his designer), usually giving a partial answer. So which facts do we
take into consideration because primary evidence is at the least hazy?



Kneasy:


Jo has said that Lily was not holding or touching Harry when she was
killed.
AKs travel in a straight line until they hit something. If it's
something alive, it dies without a mark on the body; if it's an
inanimate object, it sustains moderate damage.
According to Crouch!Moody there is no counter-curse, it cannot be
blocked magically. Yet he also says that Harry survived one. Both
statements cannot be true.
In the finale of the Ministry battle quite a few AKs get thrown. DD,
the originator of the protective magic for Harry, uses no shield
against them - they either miss and knock bits of statues and set a
kiosk afire, or something solid interposes itself between the curse
and DD. None bounced, even  when striking a charmed or magical object.
The protective magic appears to consist of two spells.
One is the part that prevented Voldy from touching Harry, negated
when Voldy uses Harry's blood in his resurrection stew. The other
protects Harry while he can call Privet Drive his home - and
according to DD was still active during HBP. Neither protected
against Voldy's wand when Peter was wielding it.
Voldy's basic plan, generally accepted by most fans - walk in, kill
the kid, walk out. This is contradicted by his words in the graveyard
"... a protection I admit I had not foreseen..... I could not touch
the boy. [...] but no matter, I can touch him now." And he does so.
PI  replays the physical effects of spells.
The wand PI is entirely blank for the attack on Harry's person.
There is no clue as to what bounced back on Voldy or what it was that
demolished the house.



Snow:



Do we know, Primary evidence, that Voldemort actually AK'ed Harry? The plan
was to kill Harry and the latest news (thanks to Dumbledore) to use his
death for his final Horcrux but did he actually attempt an AK? It seems so
since Harry remembers a bright green light but was that light an echo from
his mother's death in his eyes or was it inflicted on him?

I quite remember you doubting the AK on Harry yourself Kneasy some time
past. Everything that has been told to us is more or less of the hearsay
type. Voldemort did commit an AK at GH but it was on Lily (primary fact),
which of course did split his soul for the sixth time. Voldemort was totally
primed at the point of viewing Harry to make his next Horcrux, at least soul
wise. That soul piece went somewhere when he was disembodied but we know
that it would be unwise to purposely make a Horcrux with a living thing that
has its own mind and soul right?


Kneasy:


Q.
Why didn't Lily grab Harry and run?



Snow:

As you stated earlier, Lily wasn't holding Harry. Lily wasn't running she
was protecting. Lily's sacrifice shielded her son, which apparently she knew
otherwise standing up to Voldemort would have been worthless. Lily's actions
were not without previous thought or she would have run. We now know that it
is possible to do side along apparition so that would have been a choice
when the man's voice told her to run so why didn't she run unless she had
previous thoughts on the matter.



Kneasy:


Is the Privet Drive spell a replacement conjured by DD for a similar
charm that applied to GH? Or does it work wherever the closest living
blood relative resides?



Snow:



I'm fairly sure that one has been answered to some degree. Dumbledore said
that he took advantage of Lily's sacrifice and further used her blood
(relatives blood) to protect him. I also think he used a bit more than that
to protect Harry at his relatives but only Petunia and Dumbledore know about
that ;)



Kneasy:


Did Harry gain powers solely because Voldy lost them when
discorporating?



Snow:

Voldemort freely admits that when he was ripped from his body he was without
his powers, all of them, except for possession. Where else did they go and
by what means if it weren't for the attempt on Harry's life? Harry is now
the proud owner of equality to the Dark Lord. Oops keep forgetting you would
prefer canon:



"Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to
risk transferring power to you ? again marking you as his equal. " OOP pg843
The Lost Prophecy



How the heck they figured that out is beyond me. How did they know
(beforehand) or how would they suspect that if Voldemort attacked Harry he
would be at risk of any kind in transferring his powers, the prophecy?ugh?
We're right back to Dumbledore dismissing the prophecy confusion. How does
marking Harry as his equal automatically reference transferring power to
Harry when Dumbledore claims he doesn't hold to the prophecy? Dumbledore
claims it's all Voldemort's conception of the prophecy, doesn't he?



Kneasy:


If Harry had died at Quirrell's hands in PS/SS, would Voldy have got
his powers back?



Snow:

Of course, isn't that what would have made Diary!Tom stronger?



Kneasy:



Did taking Harry's blood return to Voldy powers that had previously
been transferred to Harry?



Snow:



No, I think that tie is a little stronger than blood.

Kneasy:



Jo's comments.
Jo has said very little about GH, though whether this is through
authorial  caution or because she hasn't been asked the right
questions at the right time is up for grabs. She suggests it's the
latter.



Snow:



Jo wont answer any questions forthright if it is something that pertains to
the meat of the story.


Kneasy:


In essence - the Black Box question - what magic was invoked against
Harry and why did it produce the results described in the text?



Snow:



So the Black Box is the 64,ooo dollar question? If anyone could answer this
question do you win the pot? You know, she's rich enough to really get her
audience pumped with that one. Seriously, if you want primary evidence, no
can do. If you want even secondary evidence I think it runs amiss. In short,
I think you found the question.

Kneasy:


Can the GH mystery be solved using the above canon with no need for
additional assumptions?



Snow:



Assuming may make an ass out of you and me but there is no way around it
given the umm?not given information.




Snow, trying my best to stay in the realm of real facts but man Kneasy, it's
not easy to reply without them.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 25 12:15:28 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:15:28 -0000
Subject: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <a1ee8d580601241913y275c5b24ud6c69ed444875909@...>
Message-ID: <dr7q50+lnsp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Kathy King <kking0731 at g...> wrote:

> 
> Snow, trying my best to stay in the realm of real facts but man Kneasy, it's
> not easy to reply without them.
> 

Yeah, I know. It's not until one stops and does a little mental editing that
one realises just how much we rely on assumptions in the average 'canon' 
thread. And apart from necessary corrections of fact most threads end up
disagreeing about assumptions. To be expected, but there is the risk
that those assumptions might carry more weight than the sometimes slender
facts on which they are based truly justify. 

To those who posted corrections yesterday - no, I wasn't disappointed/irritated,
it was expected - especially when so many disparate snippets have to be 
gathered together. One wrong (date of Jo's Q&A), one questionable (Voldy 
riding Quirrell at the LC) was not a disaster, I expected more. And one can't 
discuss the facts until what they are is agreed
 
> 
> Snow:
> Facts only get you so far in the world of Rowling. Little tid-bits of
> information from characters (that many cannot decide to this day whether or
> not they are trustworthy to give information) spewed throughout six novels.
> Who do we trust to give us information: Snape, Lupin, Sirius, Dumbledore,
> Fudge
 This makes it quite difficult to pinpoint factual information because
> if any of them were evil, there facts would need to be scrutinized, which
> gives way to theorizing according to your favorite villain.  Dumbledore is
> the most useful tool but then again he talks in rhymes and riddles (much
> like his designer), usually giving a partial answer. So which facts do we
> take into consideration because primary evidence is at the least hazy?
> 
> 

Heh.. An important judgement call.
Way back on TOL I opined that HP is not just about good vs evil, but that
family, bloodlines, personal agendas and personal animosities play an 
important part, that an individual's attitudes towards any of the social 
divisions probably pre-date Voldy - he was just the catalyst that allowed 
those with an existing DE disposition to become DEs. A prime example 
is Sirius/Snape.
They didn't hate each other because one was good and the other bad, it 
was much more personal. So are they capable of expressing objective (i.e.
unbiased) opinions about  each other? Doubtful. Given the mutual hatred,
would they lie or exaggate when talking about each other?  Possibly.
So it might be wise to squint sideways at any declarative statement each 
makes about the other. It can be applied to other characters, too. Fudge
might be ESE - or he may be a useless wanker who closes his eyes to
anything that could cause him problems.

It's this sort of thing that makes a 'secondary evidence' category useful.
The opinions and assumptions made by characters can, and in some cases
will, be prompted by personal factors, misunderstandings or deliberate lies
- and treating all secondary statements as unvarnished truth would be
asking for trouble. Which to believe? Ah, there's the rub. 
   
> 
> Snow:
> Do we know, Primary evidence, that Voldemort actually AK'ed Harry? The plan
> was to kill Harry and the latest news (thanks to Dumbledore) to use his
> death for his final Horcrux but did he actually attempt an AK? It seems so
> since Harry remembers a bright green light but was that light an echo from
> his mother's death in his eyes or was it inflicted on him?
> 
> I quite remember you doubting the AK on Harry yourself Kneasy some time
> past. Everything that has been told to us is more or less of the hearsay
> type. Voldemort did commit an AK at GH but it was on Lily (primary fact),
> which of course did split his soul for the sixth time. Voldemort was totally
> primed at the point of viewing Harry to make his next Horcrux, at least soul
> wise. That soul piece went somewhere when he was disembodied but we know
> that it would be unwise to purposely make a Horcrux with a living thing that
> has its own mind and soul right?
> 
>

No, we don't know, not with absolute certainty.
Only one person states that Voldy AK'd Harry - and that's Crouch!Moody.
How does he know? Was he there? A possibilty, certainly - but no evidence
as yet. And much of what we think we know about AKs seems contrary to the
output evidence, as well.

Now it may turn out that Voldy did AK Harry, but it's my contention that
the actual evidence makes such an assumption dubious, and if it was an
AK then Jo will need some pretty fancy footwork to explain away some
existing canon.
    
> Snow:
> As you stated earlier, Lily wasn't holding Harry. Lily wasn't running she
> was protecting. Lily's sacrifice shielded her son, which apparently she knew
> otherwise standing up to Voldemort would have been worthless. Lily's actions
> were not without previous thought or she would have run. We now know that it
> is possible to do side along apparition so that would have been a choice
> when the man's voice told her to run so why didn't she run unless she had
> previous thoughts on the matter.
> 
>

You're almost certainly right IMO.
But combine that with DD's 'plan' - just think of the possible implications! 
It leads straight to my old Puppetmaster!DD conclusions!

> Snow:
> Voldemort freely admits that when he was ripped from his body he was without
> his powers, all of them, except for possession. Where else did they go and
> by what means if it weren't for the attempt on Harry's life? Harry is now
> the proud owner of equality to the Dark Lord. Oops keep forgetting you would
> prefer canon:
> 
> "Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to
> risk transferring power to you ? again marking you as his equal. " OOP pg843
> The Lost Prophecy
> 
> How the heck they figured that out is beyond me. How did they know
> (beforehand) or how would they suspect that if Voldemort attacked Harry he
> would be at risk of any kind in transferring his powers, the prophecy
ugh?
> We're right back to Dumbledore dismissing the prophecy confusion. How does
> marking Harry as his equal automatically reference transferring power to
> Harry when Dumbledore claims he doesn't hold to the prophecy? Dumbledore
> claims it's all Voldemort's conception of the prophecy, doesn't he?
> 
>

The transfer of powers needs an explanation for sure. Like how did the
transfer take place? Were they drifting round the room and Harry caught 'em
like he'd catch a cold? Did they feel lonely and so make a bee-line to the
nearest warm body? I have difficulty in accepting that stuff like Parseltongue
would be part of an AK - or any other cast spell, come to that. 
OK, I'm prejudiced by my own previous posts, but I still hanker for a touch,
physical or mental, to explain the necessary bridge.

As for knowing in advance that powers would be lost/transferred, it seems
to me that that would only be surmisable if it were a known effect of the
protective charm and/or the dissolution spell. How the eavesdropper could
have foreseen this defeats me.

Mind you, post-facto knowledge is a different story. It's surmise but DD and
the Ministry magical boffins were probably going over Harry with a toothcomb,
a magnifying glass, a Legilimans and a Pensieve during the missing 24 hours. 
For sure I can't accept that Harry spent that day disporting himself in the 
rubble at GH.  

> Kneasy:
> Can the GH mystery be solved using the above canon with no need for
> additional assumptions?
> 
> Snow:
> Assuming may make an ass out of you and me but there is no way around it
> given the umm
not given information.
> 

I've a hunch we can get very close by using facts to eliminate what cannot be.
So long as Jo plays fair with the solution.....

Kneasy
 







From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 25 14:24:20 2006
From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:24:20 +0100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <dr7q50+lnsp@...>
References: <dr7q50+lnsp@...>
Message-ID: <200601251524.20665.silmariel@...>


Kneasy:
> I've a hunch we can get very close by using facts to eliminate what cannot
> be. So long as Jo plays fair with the solution.....
>

At the risk of making a mess - if I may borrow your expression my mind is in 
lead butterfly mode, so I'll left mental exercises aside-, I want to add 
something that puzzles me and I haven't seen in the list. It regards to the 
only supossedly canonical scene in the movies, in PS (it's in Diagon Alley, 
after Ollivander). I had the feeling that something didn't match and I've 
been watching it shot by shot.

1. (supossedly) Voldemort walks to the house.
2. he opens the garden door
3. a wand points to the main door keyhole
4. from the inside, we see a ray of light though the keyhole
5. the door opens smoothly
<out of camera action - up to the baby room>
6. Lily has Harry in her arms, appears to say or shout something while she 
closes the door. The figure at the other side of the door turns his back to 
the door.
7. Lily is at the side of the cradle, still Harry in hands, and the door 
bursts.
8. Voldemort killing lily (clearly she doesn't drop dead, she screams).
9. House exterior, green lights.
10. Harry looking at the end of a wand.

Well, point 8 isn't strictly as desired since the AK is peculiar, but it is 
also a 'natural' way to shot the scene, and we have clear that she was AKd.

Point 6 just doesn't make sense. Why would Voldemort turn his back to the door 
Lily is closing?

Silmariel



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Wed Jan 25 15:58:37 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:58:37 -0000
Subject: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <200601251524.20665.silmariel@...>
Message-ID: <dr877d+aqss@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel <silmariel at t...> wrote:
> 
> At the risk of making a mess - if I may borrow your expression my mind is in 
> lead butterfly mode, so I'll left mental exercises aside-, I want to add 
> something that puzzles me and I haven't seen in the list. It regards to the 
> only supossedly canonical scene in the movies, in PS (it's in Diagon Alley, 
> after Ollivander). I had the feeling that something didn't match and I've 
> been watching it shot by shot.
> 
> 1. (supossedly) Voldemort walks to the house.
> 2. he opens the garden door
> 3. a wand points to the main door keyhole
> 4. from the inside, we see a ray of light though the keyhole
> 5. the door opens smoothly
> <out of camera action - up to the baby room>
> 6. Lily has Harry in her arms, appears to say or shout something while she 
> closes the door. The figure at the other side of the door turns his back to 
> the door.
> 7. Lily is at the side of the cradle, still Harry in hands, and the door 
> bursts.
> 8. Voldemort killing lily (clearly she doesn't drop dead, she screams).
> 9. House exterior, green lights.
> 10. Harry looking at the end of a wand.
> 
> Well, point 8 isn't strictly as desired since the AK is peculiar, but it is 
> also a 'natural' way to shot the scene, and we have clear that she was AKd.
> 
> Point 6 just doesn't make sense. Why would Voldemort turn his back to the door 
> Lily is closing?
> 

It doesn't, I agree.
But I seem to recall that long, long ago when all the world was young, it was
reported that Jo had been very specific about what they should *not* show
when shooting that scene - particularly the number of people present, it
would give too much away. 

How much of a clue that is depends on which people you're thinking about;
James? Peter? Snape? Crouch Jnr?

She didn't seem particularly fussed about its presentation otherwise, just
left the script writers to their own devices with no further info offered. The 
sequence does differ markedly from Harry's visions as described in text.

I'd prefer to think of it as directorial licence, or ignorance, or even idleness -
the standard moody exterior, the unsuspecting victim, a darkly swathed
figure sneaking up to the house, back to sweetness and light, the shock
entrance, screams over an exterior shot illuminated by gun-flashes - 
er, sorry - spell flashes, the cut away as the hero's life hangs by a thread...
a pretty clicheed scene from 50s thrillers when they tended not to be so 
graphic as they are today. 

OK, I'm somewhat dismissive about the HP films. I may be wrong, they may
be better films (as films) than I give them credit for, but accurate canon?
Hardly.

Kneasy









From coriolan at coriolan_cmc.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 00:48:04 2006
From: coriolan at coriolan_cmc.yahoo.invalid (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 00:48:04 -0000
Subject: Happy 250th to the Wolf!
Message-ID: <dref04+i19e@...>

Today is Wolfgang Mozart's 250th birthday, and among his many other
great achievements, he inspired three HP filks:

A denunciation of Draco by me:

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/malfoy.htm#Finkin

(one of my weaker efforts: note that the Italian to English doesn't
work very well. I've not tried to repeat this procedure)

A Voldemort aria by Tann from The Magic (what else?) Flute,
originally for the bird-catcher Papageno, retaining the original
German

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/voldemort.htm#DerVoldemort

and finally, from Catherine McK, a filk of a filk - set to the
Flanders and Swan French Horn Song, which was itself set to the
finale of Mozart's Fourth Horn Concerto.

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#I_Unwrapped_My_Firebolt

- CMC







From estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 03:18:33 2006
From: estesrandy at estesrandy.yahoo.invalid (Randy Estes)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:18:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Happy 250th to the Wolf!
In-Reply-To: <dref04+i19e@...>
Message-ID: <20060128031833.28994.qmail@...>



--- Caius Marcius <coriolan at ...> wrote:

> Today is Wolfgang Mozart's 250th birthday, and among
> his many other
> great achievements, he inspired three HP filks:
>

 
Happy Birthday Amadeus!
Or would he prefer Wolfie!  You know he was bitten at
an early age.;0)

This is so cool because my birthday was Tuesday!  If
this Horoscope silliness is worth anything, maybe
that's why I am so into music!

Randy



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From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 10:36:43 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 10:36:43 +0000
Subject: By the way....
Message-ID: <560EE049-42B0-404E-B5F6-29E20017D518@...>

Were you aware that Harry's grandfather was:

a) named Charles
b) married to Dorea, who
c) was most likely (99% sure) a grand-daughter of Phineus Nigellus Black
d) issue of the marriage of one of his sons (unnamed) ( to Violetta  
Bulstrode
and that
e) Dorea's dates are given as 1920 - 1977
f) Charles has no dates (dates for direct descendants only, not their  
spouses)
g) they had one son
h) they're on the 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black' tapestry
i) and they haven't been deleted, even though others have
and that
j) another of Phineus's sons, Arcturus, married Lysandra Yexley
k) their daughter Callidora (still living) married one Harfang  
Longbottom
l) producing one son, one daughter
m) Cally's sister Charis married one Casper Crouch

Thought not.
Well you do now.

Kneasy



From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 11:44:35 2006
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:44:35 +1100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] By the way....
In-Reply-To: <560EE049-42B0-404E-B5F6-29E20017D518@...>
References: <560EE049-42B0-404E-B5F6-29E20017D518@...>
Message-ID: <20060128114435.GA21509@...>

On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 10:36:43AM +0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> Were you aware that Harry's grandfather was:

[snip genealogy]

> Thought not.
> Well you do now.
> 
> Kneasy

So its all just infighting between the rellys? This isn't about grandad's will
and some expensive vintage furniture is it? *shudder*

-- 
Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.



From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 12:04:03 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:04:03 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <20060128114435.GA21509@...>
Message-ID: <drfmjj+7q79@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, ewe2 <ewetoo at g...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 10:36:43AM +0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> > Were you aware that Harry's grandfather was:
> 
> [snip genealogy]
> 
> > Thought not.
> > Well you do now.
> > 
> > Kneasy
> 
> So its all just infighting between the rellys? This isn't about grandad's will
> and some expensive vintage furniture is it? *shudder*
> 

More likely it's that really nasty comment Cassy made about Aunt Belvina
at Granny Ursula's funeral (she was a Flint, by the way).

Kneasy






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 13:19:54 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:19:54 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <560EE049-42B0-404E-B5F6-29E20017D518@...>
Message-ID: <drfr1q+sis1@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>
> Were you aware that Harry's grandfather was:
> 
> a) named Charles

correction: it's not Charles, it's Charlus.

Sorry about that, the old eyes are not what they were.

Kneasy






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 16:27:53 2006
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:27:53 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <560EE049-42B0-404E-B5F6-29E20017D518@...>
Message-ID: <drg629+i4l9@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>
> Were you aware that Harry's grandfather was:
> 
<snip>
> 
> Thought not.
> Well you do now.
> 
> Kneasy
>

Argh..how frustrating..no chance of you grappling with technology and 
scanning the tree is there? A genuine scoop for the Torygraph it 
seems, though apparently its in The Observer tomorrow..

So, does this mean that Callidora is the first name of Neville's 
grandmother? And if Callidora married Harfang Longbottom, would great 
uncle Algie and great aunt Enid be Harfang's brother and sister?

If all this is true, it also means that Frank Longbottom has a 
sister, as yet unidentified. Is she important??

Further, it would appear that Harry is not only a distant cousin of 
Neville's, but also of Millicent Bulstrode. And that Sirius and Barty 
Crouch Jr are sort-of step-uncles.

Carolyn









From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 16:46:38 2006
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (Constance Vigilance)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 08:46:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <drg074+b4t0@...>
Message-ID: <20060128164638.30585.qmail@...>



Talisman <talisman22457 at ...> wrote:
  
  Kneasy wrote:
  
  I just checked - my PS is silent on the subject of whether Q was 
  wearing any headgear at the LC. If he was it probably wasn't a turban, judging by Harry's observations at the Sorting Feast. But I can't find any actual canon that definitatively states whether V was or wasn't mounted.
  
  Then Talisman:
  
  LV got on board after the botched bank robbery, which is also after the initial meeting with Harry at the Leaky Cauldron.
  
  CV:
  
  Harry's observations at the sorting feast are worth noting:
  
  "Harry spotted Professor Quirrell, the nervous young man from the Leaky  Cauldron. He was looking very peculiar in a large purple turban."
  
  Was he looking peculiar *because* he was wearing a large purple turban,  or was he looking peculiar because he was just getting used to having a  passenger? In any case, I think we can be confident that he was not  wearing any type of turban in the previous meeting. Bad WB, BAD! WB  also committed the ultimate foul in relation to Quirrell by killing him  to dust. The books are quite vague about whether Quirrell is dead or  not.
  
  Let's see what Dumbledore says about Quirrell in "The Man With Two Faces":
  
  "Quirrell does not have the stone." (Note: Dumbledore uses the present tense. He could have said "Quirrell never got the stone."
  
  Then, later (speaking of Voldemort):
  
  "... (N)ot being truly alive, he cannot be killed. He left Quirrell to  die; he shows just a little mercy to his followers as his enemies."
  
  This last is describing Voldemort's character. It has no bearing on  Quirrell's state. Voldemort also left Harry to die, for that matter.
  
  The god Janus, the original "Man With Two Faces", was the god of  beginnings and endings. The fact that the chapter is named this, I  think, leads good credibility to the idea that Quirrell is an important  character in the beginning, *and the end* of the series.
  
  As was pointed out, Dumbledore can make someone appear to be dead. I  think there is good reason to suspect that the same offer was made to  Quirrell. For those who like to think the seven puzzles in the dungeon  represent the seven books. The final book should be Harry Potter and  Out of the Blue - Quirrell.
  
  Constance Vigilance, holding a candle for the Q-man.


			
---------------------------------
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From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 16:46:55 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:46:55 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <drg629+i4l9@...>
Message-ID: <drg75v+u9m5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" 
<carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote:
>
> Argh..how frustrating..no chance of you grappling with technology and 
> scanning the tree is there? A genuine scoop for the Torygraph it 
> seems, though apparently its in The Observer tomorrow..

You can find what of it can be seen here:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/image.php?
image=2006/01/JKR_Telegraph_article(2).jpg

-Nora heads off to enjoy the surprisingly mild day






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 16:55:32 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:55:32 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <drg629+i4l9@...>
Message-ID: <drg7m4+e207@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" <carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote:
>
> 
> Argh..how frustrating..no chance of you grappling with technology and 
> scanning the tree is there? A genuine scoop for the Torygraph it 
> seems, though apparently its in The Observer tomorrow..
> 
> So, does this mean that Callidora is the first name of Neville's 
> grandmother? And if Callidora married Harfang Longbottom, would great 
> uncle Algie and great aunt Enid be Harfang's brother and sister?
> 
> If all this is true, it also means that Frank Longbottom has a 
> sister, as yet unidentified. Is she important??
> 
> Further, it would appear that Harry is not only a distant cousin of 
> Neville's, but also of Millicent Bulstrode. And that Sirius and Barty 
> Crouch Jr are sort-of step-uncles.
> 

Bugger.
I've tried 3 times but Yahoo just cocks up the layout.

Anyway -  yes, Cally seems to be Neville's Gran though later generations
are listed as 's' or 'd' -  Charlus & Dorea Potter have 1 son (James presumably)
though he is not named. Harfy & Cally Longbottom have 1 son (Frank) not
named, and a daughter. No family name for Alice of course.

And it is the right generations - Dorea Potter dies in 1977 - not long before
Harry is born; Cally is still alive. 

Apart from the relevant spouse no detail is given of the families of those 
marrying Blacks - apart from any resulting offspring of the union. 
So any siblings of Harfy, Charlus etc. are not shown.

Kneasy






From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 17:16:07 2006
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:16:07 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <drg7m4+e207@...>
Message-ID: <drg8sn+g5lq@...>

Are we to assume the black spots are blast marks? If so, it appears blasting goes aways 
back, and of course that begs the question what justifed those old blast marks. 

Similarly, we find no blast mark over Charlus. You'd think he might have fallen into 
disfavor for taking in Sirius. Perhaps the "son" mark was of insufficient importance, but for 
a guy who thrice defied Voldemort, you'd think he might have fallen into sufficient disfavor 
too, at least if the defials ever came to public attention. Same goes for the presumptive 
Frank Longbottom. Likely all this doesn't mean much of anything, but should it, it 
suggests that either the Sirius's mother was a bit less impulsive than she appeared about 
blasting, the events of defiance came after Voldemort dropped from the Black's favor, or 
again, the acts of defiance were never widely known.






From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 17:17:18 2006
From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (Constance Vigilance)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:17:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <drg7m4+e207@...>
Message-ID: <20060128171718.4185.qmail@...>

Can you create it in Word and upload into the Files section?
  
  There is a scan of the page on Leaky at this link  http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/image.php?image=2006/01/JKR_Telegraph_article(2).jpg  but it's hard to read as well.
  
  CV


  
  Bugger.
  I've tried 3 times but Yahoo just cocks up the layout.
  
  Kneasy
  
    
  


		
---------------------------------
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 With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 17:26:56 2006
From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:26:56 -0600
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Happy 250th to the Wolf!
References: <dref04+i19e@...>
Message-ID: <01e701c62430$0adfb120$1a59aacf@...>

And here I was trying to mentally divide 250 by 7 for dog years. I thought
you might be talking about Grey Wolf.

~Amanda

----- Original Message -----
From: "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at ...>
To: <the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:48 PM
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Happy 250th to the Wolf!


> Today is Wolfgang Mozart's 250th birthday, and among his many other
> great achievements, he inspired three HP filks:
>
> A denunciation of Draco by me:
>
> http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/malfoy.htm#Finkin
>
> (one of my weaker efforts: note that the Italian to English doesn't
> work very well. I've not tried to repeat this procedure)
>
> A Voldemort aria by Tann from The Magic (what else?) Flute,
> originally for the bird-catcher Papageno, retaining the original
> German
>
> http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/voldemort.htm#DerVoldemort
>
> and finally, from Catherine McK, a filk of a filk - set to the
> Flanders and Swan French Horn Song, which was itself set to the
> finale of Mozart's Fourth Horn Concerto.
>
> http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#I_Unwrapped_My_Firebolt
>
> - CMC
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>   a..  Visit your group "the_old_crowd" on the web.
>
>   b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    the_old_crowd-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>   c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
>




From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 18:09:02 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:09:02 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <20060128171718.4185.qmail@...>
Message-ID: <drgbvu+k3pp@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Constance Vigilance <constancevigilance at y...> 
wrote:
>
> Can you create it in Word and upload into the Files section?
>   

I've created a TIFF file, but I don't have access to create a new file in
the file section.

I'm willing to mail a copy to anyone who wants it.
Not sure if mailing through Yahoo will work, in fact easier not to;
I can send to multiple addresses simultaneously through my mail
provider, but only one at a time via the board.

Lyn - it's a bit odd, those deleting blotches.
>From what Sirius says it's those marrying Muggles or disgracing
the family that get wiped.
So how come Doria and Cally are still there?
Weren't they disgraces too, marrying who they did?

Kneasy






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 18:26:17 2006
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:26:17 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <drgbvu+k3pp@...>
Message-ID: <drgd09+t5ue@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Constance Vigilance 
<constancevigilance at y...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Can you create it in Word and upload into the Files section?
> >   
> 
> I've created a TIFF file, but I don't have access to create a new 
file in
> the file section.

Carolyn:
Thanks for the Leaky link Nora (and others). I right clicked on that 
image and saved it down onto my hard disk as a JPEG, then expanded it 
using + tool until I could read it. But Barry's TIFF file also v good 
(thanks!). I gather from the news item that we get to see the whole 
thing on 20th Feb when it goes up for auction.

What's the betting that Dumbledore is on it somewhere?

> 
> Lyn - it's a bit odd, those deleting blotches.
> From what Sirius says it's those marrying Muggles or disgracing
> the family that get wiped.
> So how come Doria and Cally are still there?
> Weren't they disgraces too, marrying who they did?
> 
> Kneasy
>

Another thing, Charis Black (1819-1973) surely can't be the Mrs 
Crouch who died in Azkaban if her husband's name was Casper? 
Irritating, as the 1973 date is exactly right for that event. If 
Bartemious Sr was their son, Barty Jr would be Harry's generation, 
which he wasn't.

Carolyn







From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 18:38:18 2006
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:38:18 -0000
Subject: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <drgbvu+k3pp@...>
Message-ID: <drgdmq+h4n0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>
> 
> Lyn - it's a bit odd, those deleting blotches.
> From what Sirius says it's those marrying Muggles or disgracing
> the family that get wiped.
> So how come Doria and Cally are still there?
> Weren't they disgraces too, marrying who they did?
> 
> Kneasy
>

Another thing, I wonder if Cally and Charis' sibling was Uncle 
Alphard?
It's the right generation, and it would appear that Arcturus is a 
brother of Sirius' Grandfather.

Assume Herbert Burke will also turn out to be the founder of Borgin & 
Burke.

Carolyn, fascinated.







From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid  Sat Jan 28 20:12:13 2006
From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:12:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Heaping vow upon vow/Viewing the evidence
In-Reply-To: <dr6ife+6n7h@...>
Message-ID: <20060128201213.20935.qmail@...>

--- annemehr <annemehr at ...> wrote:

> As to why DD met Sybil in the Hogs Head (apart from plot
> considerations, I mean), we can only speculate.  It was at the
> height of VWI; perhaps DD had a policy of admitting as few 
> strangers as possible into Hogwarts grounds.

Or perhaps Dumbledore was being kind; if he'd already pretty much
determined to reject her application, he wouldn't want her
humiliation witnessed by the portraits of the other headmasters,
who'd be listening and watching and whose discretion couldn't be
assured.  

The same reason, I assume, that Snape and Dumbledore had their
private discussion (that Hagrid partly overheard) in the forest
rather than in Dumbledore's office.

Magda

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From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 06:14:02 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:14:02 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: By the way....
References: <drgbvu+k3pp@...>
Message-ID: <01c301c6249b$33b5c880$6601a8c0@...>

>Kneasy said:

(snip)

>Lyn - it's a bit odd, those deleting blotches.
>From what Sirius says it's those marrying Muggles or disgracing
>the family that get wiped.
>So how come Doria and Cally are still there?
>Weren't they disgraces too, marrying who they did?

Rebecca now:

Going with that being "practically royal to be a Black" notion Sirius 
mentions, this snippet of the Black bloodline looks be an example, to me 
anyway, of trying to display royal descent from the perspective that the 
elder Blacks considered themselves nobility - noble, at least back to 
Phineas' birth in 1847. "Ancient", hardly.  1847 isn't what I'd call 
"ancient."   Marry enough established nobility into a family in shorter 
timeframe and what do you have? Power and money, claim to the throne - think 
the rise of the House of Tudor here. In the case of Doria and Chuck Potter, 
I imagine they weren't blown off because pureblood nobility adds to the 
family's worth and they need as much as they can get (remember, the Noble 
House of Black isn't so "ancient", least by this view today) especially if 
you're trying to make your family appear more powerful, noble and regal in 
the shorter term.

IMO, removing family from the tapestry might need to be done with extreme 
emotion, magically speaking.  If it were so easy to remove those in one's 
family one didn't agree with or like and one were a wizard, why the 
"blasting?" Why not just modify it all nice and proper so no one would know 
the difference? The latter is what appears to have happened with Tonks. 
Sirius said it in OoP:

 "I see Tonks isn't on here. Maybe that's why Kreacher won't take orders 
from her - he's supposed to do whatever anyone in the family asks him -'"

Sirius was blasted off, but he was on the tapestry in the first place and 
the house was an inheritance for him; Sirius is the last of the Blacks, as 
Phineas Nigellus says. Tonks isn't even part of the family, as she wasn't 
never added to the tapestry at all.  Sweet way to *hide* the folks in the 
family you don't perceive any value from, isn't it? Much better to hide or 
ignore them than to burn them off the tapestry where it can be viewed - each 
burn could make the Black family look "weaker" in terms of the strength of 
nobility they wish to portray.

Can't wait to see the whole thing!

Rebecca








From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 10:41:45 2006
From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:41:45 +1100
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <drgbvu+k3pp@...>
References: <20060128171718.4185.qmail@...> <drgbvu+k3pp@...>
Message-ID: <20060129104145.GB21509@...>

On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 06:09:02PM -0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> I've created a TIFF file, but I don't have access to create a new file in
> the file section.

So what's the betting this was a draft genealogy that Jo didn't have a problem
with publicizing? A rough for OotP that was later revised, but is good for
some red fishies for the fans? The woman has made me paranoid...

ewe2

-- 
Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.



From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 10:44:36 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:44:36 -0000
Subject: It's All Relative (was:By the way....
In-Reply-To: <01c301c6249b$33b5c880$6601a8c0@...>
Message-ID: <dri6ak+a7q4@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca Bowen" 
<dontask2much at y...> wrote:
>Kneasy said:
(snip)
>Lyn -
>So how come Doria and Cally are still there?
>Weren't they disgraces too, marrying who they did?

>Rebecca:
>I imagine they weren't blown off because pureblood nobility adds to 
the
>family's worth and they need as much as they can get

Talisman:
I'll agree that the Blacks were primarily worried about establishing 
pedigree, and that, the Longbottom and Potter families being 
pureblood, there is no reason to believe that Dorea or Callidora 
made disfavored matches.

Even though other bad behavior could get you erased (e.g. Sirius 
running away / rejecting the family), there is no reason to believe 
that Harfang ever did anything that would have upset the elder 
Blacks.  

It *is* a little surprising that Charlus didn't get zapped, along 
with his descending line, for taking the run-away in.  After all, 
it's not much different in *kind* (though perhaps in degree) to give 
Sirius a temporary home, than it is to give him money to remain 
independent--which, of course, got Alphard blasted.

But, as JKR notes, *there are many stories between these lines.*  
Maybe Charlus was tying to play family diplomat and managed to keep 
friendly lines open with the Blacks.  It's just too much 
speculation, and probably not germane to any of our plot questions.

>Rebecca:
>the Noble House of Black isn't so "ancient"

Talisman:
There is no particular reason to think the House of Black began with 
Phineus.  It pays to be aware of the fact that the document JKR is 
donating is not a replica of the tapestry.  Inasmuch as the named 
generations stop at Harry's paternal grandparent's level, and only a 
headcount of the generation below is given, it clearly doesn't 
extend down to Regulus or Draco, as the tapestry did in Book 5.

Similarly, Book 5 doesn't establish Phineus as being the first 
generation shown.  Moreover, Phineus' sister: Elladora *The Chopper* 
was a Nigellus/Black, too, as was poor *deleted.*  These siblings 
descended, in turn, from a still earlier generation of the 
Nigellus/Black family, whether or not it's on the tapestry. 

This doesn't change the fact that the Blacks *cultivated* their 
pedigree.

I, for one, think it would be interesting to follow the tree both 
ways--back to, say, the founder's level, to see if all that snake 
hardware at 12GP is there for a reason.  

I mean, even if they were generally in Slytherin House, it would 
seem odd to make that the motif for their adult household.  Sort of 
like decorating your house, china, silverware, etc. with your high 
school mascot.  More than a bit declass?.

But if you were blood related to, say, Napoleon, you might well 
adopt the Emperor's bee for some of these purposes.

However, I think that even when we get the entire document, we'll be 
stuck with the levels of generation already shown.  They'll be shown 
more fully, but it will be lateral, with not much more information 
about who came before...or after. 

She's just trying to whip us into a frenzy.  I expect the countdown 
to Book 7 will hold more of this--provocative information, with 
relevant crumbs, if any, submerged in a lot of superfluous detail.  


>Rebecca:
>Sirius was blasted off, but he was on the tapestry in the first 
place and
>the house was an inheritance for him; Sirius is the last of the 
Blacks, as
>Phineas Nigellus says. Tonks isn't even part of the family, as she 
wasn't
>never added to the tapestry at all. 

Talisman:
Tonks isn't on the tapestry because her mother, Andromeda, was 
blasted off for marrying a muggle.  Anyone descending from that 
union would not be acknowledged, as they would necessarily be half-
bloods.

But, though they may have been able to edit their tapestry, and 
instruct their family elves, Sirius's parent's can't alter actual 
blood relations to suit their feelings.  Tonks is still Sirius's 
cousin, and a favorite one at that.

However, it is relevant that Tonks does not carry the Black family 
name, and was not a child of the (presumed) testators.

Even though he was at odds with his parents, Sirius was a pureblood, 
the last Black, and their child.

Dad may never have been as rabid as Mom, and may have had second 
thoughts by the time LV was having Regulus murdered.

I don't think the fact that Tonks was never entered on the tapestry, 
but that Sirius *once was,* has anything to do with the inheritance 
of 12GP, except that both are explained in terms of family facts.

However, this business of relations is very interesting, indeed.

Harry is said to have no living relatives, save the Dursleys.  But 
clearly, if James, Sirius, Narcissa, and even Darco, are all related 
to Phineus, Harry does have relatives. Possibly loads of them.  
Flints, Bulstrodes, Longbottoms, Burkes, and who knows what other 
families yet to be revealed. 

I think many of us may have suspected as much, after learning that 
most pureblood families are related, in Book 5, but here it is in 
spades.

Tsk, tsk, Dumbledore. 

Well, of course, old Dumbles likes to make the fuss about Lily's 
blood.  But, still *you have no other living relatives* seems to 
have been rather an ::coughliecough:: overstatement.

Perhaps he is making a distinction between sharing common blood, per 
se, and sharing it to some personal preference in degree of 
separation.  Apparently, inclusion on the same family tree (or at 
least blood-based eligibility to be included) under the same great-
great grandparent, is not the definition old DD likes to use.

By-the-by, Phineus is called Sirius's great-great grandfather, and 
according to the tree (assuming Charlus is James's father, which I 
think he is) he would be Harry's great-great grandfather, as well--
even though Sirius was James's age.  

Of course that's quite possible.  James is said to be a late-life 
treasure, so Dorea and Charlus were just getting around to popping 
out the 4th generation when the Blacks had managed that long enough 
ago so that the 4th generation had already produced a 5th. 

All the same, Harry and Sirius: the same degree of relation to old 
Phineus. Something to think about.   

So why do some people get to claim relatives, and others not? The 
Gaunts claimed Salazar Slytherin as their relation, and Hepzibah 
Smith claimed Helga Hufflepuff, though she characterized it as a  
*distant* relation.  

In both of these cases, the relation goes back about a thousand 
years, and the blood must at least be traced partially through 
maternal lines, accounting for the difference in surnames. 

The exact nature of either relation to the founders is not clear, 
though DD calls Riddle Slytherin's *last heir.*

Just why he is called an heir is not clear.  Did he inherit the 
Gaunt hut? Was that even ever part of Slytherin's estate? Doubtful. 
Did he fit the terms of some ancient dead-hand will that would have 
transferred the Slytherin locket to him, had Morfin cared to make 
arrangements? Doubtful.  I'm thinking Salazar would have blasted 
half-bloods off his tree, too.

Does DD call him *heir* just because he had *some* degree of Slyth 
blood? 

And, back to the matter of who is related to whom, did the Gaunts 
even have a superior claim of relation to Salazar Slytherin-down 
through all those centuries-- than Harry has to any extant 
Bulstrodes, etc.? 

Or, as hundreds of years of political history teaches us, is 
secretly redefining the words you use a spiffing way to say that 
which is patently untrue, and yet expect to be called honest? 

Ah, Guilty!Dumbledore.

Talisman, saying: Thanks, Kneasy.  For making sure everyone got, not 
only the head's up about the tree, but a legible copy to review.

P.S. From HBP:

"Well, I have decided  that it is time, now that you know what 
prompted Lord Voldemort to try and kill you fifteen years ago, for 
you to be given certain information."

There was a pause.

"You said, at the end of last term, you were going to tell me 
everything," said Harry. ...
.
.."I told you everything *I know."* 

[Holy Mother of Epistemology and Undisclosed Qualifications!]

"From this point forth, we shall be leaving the firm foundation of 
fact [Is that what he calls the OoP doubletalk?] and journeying 
together through ...memory... [and] guesswork."

"But you think you're right?"

"Naturally I do..." (197).
 
[Fast-forward into the *journey*]

"Four years ago, I received what I considered *certain proof* that 
Voldemort had split his soul." [Excuse me.  Then doesn't that count 
under the *what I know* column?]... "You handed it to me, Harry," 
said Dumbledore.  "The diary..." (500)

Guilty, Guilty!Dumbledore, obviously lies like a rug.





                                  














From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 11:03:52 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:03:52 -0000
Subject: It's All Relative (was:By the way....
In-Reply-To: <dri6ak+a7q4@...>
Message-ID: <dri7eo+dgkg@...>

And one more thing...

Where do you suppose the Prince family fits in?

Could it be hidden under one of those blast marks (Lord knows 
something is).

Maybe Phineus and Elladora's blasted sibling?  Someone blasted for a 
non-blood offense?  Or blasted far enough back that a few 
wizard/wizard marriages later no one remembered? 

Or will they just show up with the rest of the lateral tree 
information? 

Talisman saying: You know he's somewhere in that tree. ;)






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 11:11:36 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:11:36 -0000
Subject: It's All Relative (was:By the way....
In-Reply-To: <dri7eo+dgkg@...>
Message-ID: <dri7t8+5sa5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
> Talisman saying: You know he's somewhere in that tree. ;)
>
And yet one more thing...

You know this *relationship* will have something to do with the REAL 
reason Snape and Sirius hated each other.

We've know for sometime that the Prank was just a symptom.

Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow?
JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling 
was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course.
JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004 







From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 11:19:51 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:19:51 -0000
Subject: It's All Relative (was:By the way....
In-Reply-To: <dri7t8+5sa5@...>
Message-ID: <dri8cn+ieg5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
>You know this *relationship* will have something to do with the REAL
>reason Snape and Sirius hated each other.

Let's just revisit the idea that this gives more acid to Sirius's dig 
to Snape that 12GP is HIS house (and he's the boss of it :P) 

T






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 13:10:03 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:10:03 -0000
Subject: It's All Relative (was:By the way....
In-Reply-To: <dri6ak+a7q4@...>
Message-ID: <drierb+9q1h@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> wrote:

snips at random for that existential effect
> 
> However, this business of relations is very interesting, indeed.
> 
> Harry is said to have no living relatives, save the Dursleys.  But 
> clearly, if James, Sirius, Narcissa, and even Darco, are all related 
> to Phineus, Harry does have relatives. Possibly loads of them.  
> Flints, Bulstrodes, Longbottoms, Burkes, and who knows what other 
> families yet to be revealed. 
> 
> I think many of us may have suspected as much, after learning that 
> most pureblood families are related, in Book 5, but here it is in 
> spades.
> 
> Tsk, tsk, Dumbledore. 
> 
> Well, of course, old Dumbles likes to make the fuss about Lily's 
> blood.  But, still *you have no other living relatives* seems to 
> have been rather an ::coughliecough:: overstatement.
> 
> Perhaps he is making a distinction between sharing common blood, per 
> se, and sharing it to some personal preference in degree of 
> separation.  Apparently, inclusion on the same family tree (or at 
> least blood-based eligibility to be included) under the same great-
> great grandparent, is not the definition old DD likes to use.
> 
> By-the-by, Phineus is called Sirius's great-great grandfather, and 
> according to the tree (assuming Charlus is James's father, which I 
> think he is) he would be Harry's great-great grandfather, as well--
> even though Sirius was James's age.  
> 
> Of course that's quite possible.  James is said to be a late-life 
> treasure, so Dorea and Charlus were just getting around to popping 
> out the 4th generation when the Blacks had managed that long enough 
> ago so that the 4th generation had already produced a 5th. 
> 
> All the same, Harry and Sirius: the same degree of relation to old 
> Phineus. Something to think about.   
> 
> 
> The exact nature of either relation to the founders is not clear, 
> though DD calls Riddle Slytherin's *last heir.*
> 
> Just why he is called an heir is not clear.  
> 
> Does DD call him *heir* just because he had *some* degree of Slyth 
> blood? 
> 


Difficult to imagine that no-one else shares Slyth blood if the pool of 
'acceptable' pureblood breeders as small as yesterday's chart indicates.
Well, there is one way, but incest is such a nasty word. So judgemental.
It probably boils down to degrees of consanguinity, how many quarterings
on your escutcheon, the fewer the better. Even so, after 1,000  years that
would indicate frequent and deliberate breeding back to the same few 
bloodlines - not a healthy activity, just look at the Bourbons. 

It's probably significant that the Gaunts are presented as clinging to the
unjustified superiority of Slyth blood, even though they've sunk to such
a low level of genetic, social and financial degeneracy. Who the hell
would want to marry into that lot anyway? Not even other 'purebloods'
would relish the idea of inviting those in-laws round for Sunday afternoon
tea and cakes. 
Talleyrand's observation of the Bourbons "they've learned nothing and 
forgotten nothing" could equally apply to the Gaunts. 

But look what happens when there's an out-crossing - hybrid vigour 
appears in the form of Tom. Just as nasty as the rest of 'em, but with the
drive to do something about his perceived situation instead of returning
to squat in squalor in a one-hut rural slum with what remains of the
glorious Slyth bloodline that he's so  proud of.

Still, unless there's a covert wizarding version of "The List of Adrian 
Messenger" somewhere in the background it's difficult to believe that 
out there somewhere there aren't more Sally descendents.

Mind you, as I've observed previously, to be an 'heir' does not necessarily 
require that a blood relationship exists - although in this case we're told 
it's definitely there. Anyone benefiting from a legacy or will is an heir, 
related or not.
Tom was the first into the Chamber and as such he may automatically have
become 'heir' to whatever legacy Sally left there. Anyone with a smidgeon
of Slyth blood and a touch of Parseltongue could be a beneficiary. Even the 
blood bit may not be absolutely essential - Harry gets in and he has 
negligible Slyth blood so far as we know. Yep, he has a Voldy bit in  his
mind, but that doesn't involve blood does it?  And Ginny - "she opened
the Chamber of Secrets" according to Tom - possessed, certainly; Sally
blood? I don't think so. Come to that, how much of this actual precious
blood is there in the Diary? Nope; I suspect that some licence is needed
when using the 'blood' word in this context.

As for DD, what can one say?
"Economical with the actualitee", probably sums it up politely.

Kneasy







From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 13:15:20 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:15:20 -0000
Subject: It's All Relative (was:By the way....
In-Reply-To: <dri6ak+a7q4@...>
Message-ID: <drif58+aahe@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:

> Talisman:
> Tonks isn't on the tapestry because her mother, Andromeda, was 
> blasted off for marrying a muggle.  Anyone descending from that 
> union would not be acknowledged, as they would necessarily be half-
> bloods.

Muggle-born.  I'm not quite sure why this bit of canonical confusion 
has spread like wildfire.  That makes Tonks a half-blood by the more 
rigorous (and coming from the perspective of people like Lucius 
Malfoy) criteria that also makes Harry a half-blood.

Andromeda most likely met Ted in Hogwarts, given the proximate dates 
and the general pattern in Rowling's world, where we have several 
examples of school couples marrying.  Now, Sluggy tells us that all 
the Blacks but Sirius were Slytherins, thus including Andromeda.  I 
wonder how she escaped the dominant climate of the House and time to 
marry a Muggle-born guy?

-Nora nitpicks out of habit, naturally






From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 15:24:51 2006
From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:24:51 -0000
Subject: It's All Relative (was:By the way....
In-Reply-To: <dri8cn+ieg5@...>
Message-ID: <drimo3+asrv@...>

 "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
> wrote:
> >You know this *relationship* will have something to do with the REAL
> >reason Snape and Sirius hated each other.
> 
> Let's just revisit the idea that this gives more acid to Sirius's dig 
> to Snape that 12GP is HIS house (and he's the boss of it :P) 


Kathy W:

I'm with you, there's some bad blood that explains those two.

I was planning to use my new found day off to see if I could make a 
connection between Sirius's Mum and Severus's Mum. Sisters perhaps? 
Then I discover this handy-dandy chart has been revealed.

Well, between a poor screen, a jinxed printer and a bad cold, I haven't 
gotten very far.

 









From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 15:40:20 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:40:20 -0500
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: It's All Relative (was:By the way....
References: <dri7eo+dgkg@...>
Message-ID: <009701c624ea$50347480$6601a8c0@...>

(combined a few posts on this thread here for response)

>Ewe said:
>So what's the betting this was a draft genealogy that Jo didn't have a 
>problem
>with publicizing?

Rebecca:

You're right, of course, and so is Talisman in an earlier reply. This will 
teach me to post later than my normal snooze time; I overlooked this:

(OoP) "Nevertheless, the golden thread with which it was embroidered still 
glinted brightly enough to show them a sprawling family tree dating back (as 
far as Harry could tell) to the Middle Ages"

Are the Middle Ages considered "ancient"? And do other pureblood families 
(like the Malfoys) "compete" in a sense to display their lineage? One could 
infer that purebloods we've seen seek to focus on Sally as their ancestor, 
but that might because we haven't really been exposed in depth to any other 
family's lineage yet.

>From: "Talisman" ....


>And one more thing...
>Where do you suppose the Prince family fits in?
>Could it be hidden under one of those blast marks (Lord knows
something is).

(snip)

>Talisman saying: You know he's somewhere in that tree. ;)

Rebecca:

I was afraid to put that in my last post ;)  Way back, I'd considered that 
perhaps Snape was more closely related to the Potters, rather than more 
directly to the Blacks.  A la the Snape memory:

"'Leave him alone,' Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign 
of great dislike. 'What's he done to you?"'Well,' said James, appearing to 
deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I 
mean.'"

He *exits*...well, does this reference the Dark Arts Snape favors, or 
something else?  It's always confused me.
Rebecca










From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 19:05:22 2006
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:05:22 -0000
Subject: Ages
Message-ID: <drj3li+ag01@...>

Looking at the ages listed in the Black family tree, two things jump out.

First. Dorea, presumably Harry's Grandmother, dies very very young (57) by WW standards. 
Why and/or how? JKR, I believe, has said there was nothing remarkable about the 
grandparents, but to die so young is remarkable. It also says something with respect to 
the appearance of the relatives in the Mirror of Erised.

Second, Rowling has lead us to believe that wizard lifespans are rather longer than 
muggles (especially as related to the Molly Weasely timeline),  yet the lifespans shown on 
this snippet of the tree aren't particularly remarkable (at least relative to the time frame 
displayed).


I also wonder if there is a touch of subtle humor in the top pairing. Nigellus as a former 
headmaster presumably could be seen as representative of academic scholarship. Flint, as 
a relative of Marcus Flint, could be seen as representative of stupidity. At least I found it to 
be an amusing pairing. 






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 19:53:09 2006
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:53:09 -0000
Subject: Ages
In-Reply-To: <drj3li+ag01@...>
Message-ID: <drj6f5+puue@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Lyn J. Mangiameli" 
<kumayama at e...> wrote:
>
> Looking at the ages listed in the Black family tree, two things 
jump out.
> 
> First. Dorea, presumably Harry's Grandmother, dies very very young 
(57) by WW standards. 
> Why and/or how? JKR, I believe, has said there was nothing 
remarkable about the 
> grandparents, but to die so young is remarkable. It also says 
something with respect to 
> the appearance of the relatives in the Mirror of Erised.
> 
> Second, Rowling has lead us to believe that wizard lifespans are 
rather longer than 
> muggles (especially as related to the Molly Weasely timeline),  yet 
the lifespans shown on 
> this snippet of the tree aren't particularly remarkable (at least 
relative to the time frame 
> displayed).
> 

Second attempt to post this, apologies if it appears twice. I was 
thinking the same thing, Lyn. The ages we've been told so far are:

Phineas 1847-1928 = 81
Elladora 1850-1931 = 81
Belvina 1886-1962 = 76
Arcturus 1884-1959 = 75
Dorea 1920-1977 = 57
Charis 1919-1972 = 53
Gondoline Oliphant 1720-1799 = 79(but clubbed to death)
Artemisia Lufkin 1754-1825 = 71
Ignatia Wildsmith 1227-1320 = 93
Honoria Nutcombe 1665-1743 = 78

There may be more, I haven't followed the wizard of the month for a 
while.

The only people who are definitely older are DD, and Griselda 
Marchbanks who taught him (so must be approx 200), and possibly 
Tiberius Ogden, Prof Tofty and the mysterious Ollivander.

Could they all have been swigging elixir of life without telling 
anyone? No wonder Voldie is peeved; as at the end of book 6 he's only 
70, which isn't very impressive for someone who prides himself on his 
immortality, is it?

Of course, the simple solution is that JKR's disastrous maths led her 
to make a mistake about DD's age..but if she didn't, he's just along 
there next to Phineas Nigellus it seems.

Carolyn






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 20:44:03 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:44:03 -0000
Subject: Ages
In-Reply-To: <drj3li+ag01@...>
Message-ID: <drj9ej+cv6k@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kumayama at e...> wrote:
> 
> First. Dorea, presumably Harry's Grandmother, dies very very 
> young (57) by WW standards. 
> Why and/or how? 
> JKR, I believe, has said there was nothing remarkable about the 
> grandparents, but to die so young is remarkable. 

Quite.
Such a pity that there was nothing remarkable about it.
When Jo told us that they'd died young, comparatively speaking, and
not long before Harry was whelped, plus (IIRC) Vernon's parents also
popped their clogs at approximately the same time - well, it got an
old conspiracy theorist very excited indeed. Voldy going for all three
generations of Potters, and a very good reason why Petunia would
hate magic and why Vernon would fear it.

And then she ruins it by saying it wasn't anything remarkable.
Unfair, I calls it.
The least she could have done was pretended, you know - strung
it out a bit, played coy, enigmatic, been a bit ambiguous.
Still, I don't have to believe her if I don't want to.

Kneasy






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 22:24:50 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:24:50 -0000
Subject: Ages
In-Reply-To: <drj9ej+cv6k@...>
Message-ID: <drjfbi+u6bp@...>



>Carolyn in message 3838:
>Of course, the simple solution is that JKR's disastrous maths led 
her
>to make a mistake about DD's age..but if she didn't, he's just along
>there next to Phineas Nigellus it seems.

Talisman:
Yes, I haven't keep a record (expect Lexicon to be doing that) but I 
do note the life span of every new wizard of the month.  You are 
quite right; they are all well within human expectation, or on the 
short side.  I noticed that about the family tree, as well. 

I don't think Rowling is confused about DD's age, I think her 
failure to acknowledge that it is exceptional, even by wizarding 
standards, is just another instance of the disingenuous.

>Kneasy in message 3839:
>And then she ruins it by saying it wasn't anything remarkable.
>Unfair, I calls it. 
>The least she could have done was pretended, you know - strung
>it out a bit, played coy, enigmatic, been a bit ambiguous.
>Still, I don't have to believe her if I don't want to.

Talisman:
That business in the Mugglenet interview (July 16, 2005) probably 
isn't a direct lie, but it's definitely misleading.  She refers to 
Harry's g-parents as *mundane territory,*  says they aren't 
*massively important,*  (key word massively?) and tells us that she 
just needed to dispose of them expediently, so they *succumbed to a 
wizarding illness.  That's as far as it goes.*  

Ho hum.

Of course she forgot to mention that Grandma was a Black.

And yes, I really think that she understands this would elicit more 
than a blas? yawn.

The Potters weren't just Sirius's best mate's parents, they were 
Sirius's relatives.  Sirius wasn't just Harry's godfather--he was 
family.  James, Sirius, Harry--and I'm betting Snape--all blood kin. 

Ho hum my foot.

Maybe they did succumb to illness, but there's still room for some 
highly interesting--albeit not *massively* important--details to 
emerge.

And, as Carolyn suggests, it's worth wondering just where Dumbledore 
fits in....

I haven't pulled the cite, but I well recall Rowling being asked 
whether DD was Harry's grandfather.  She responded with another 
question, to the effect of "If he had other relatives, why would he 
have to go to the Dursleys?"

Reeks of deception.

Well, of course, these aren't Lily's blood relatives, as far as that 
goes, and DD is not literally Harry's grandfather, but...

Talisman, saying (with due affection): There's an evil witch 
cackling in Edinburgh....






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 22:32:00 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:32:00 -0000
Subject: Ages
In-Reply-To: <drjfbi+u6bp@...>
Message-ID: <drjfp0+jpaq@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
>I haven't pulled the cite, but I well recall Rowling being asked
>whether DD was Harry's grandfather. She responded with another
>question, to the effect of "If he had other relatives, why would he
>have to go to the Dursleys?"

It's even better, it covers relative, albeit *close:*

Official Site, Section: Rumours

[Rumor] Professor Dumbledore is Harry's real grandfather/close 
relative of some description.

 [Rowling] "If Dumbledore had been Harry's grandfather, why on earth 
would he have been sent to live with the Dursleys?"

She obviously avoids the question, as well as raising another that has 
chaffed me for a long time....i.e. the whole Privet Drive business.

Talisman







From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 22:47:41 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:47:41 -0000
Subject: Ages
In-Reply-To: <drjfp0+jpaq@...>
Message-ID: <drjgmd+vn3r@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
> wrote:
> >I haven't pulled the cite, but I well recall Rowling being asked
> >whether DD was Harry's grandfather. She responded with another
> >question, to the effect of "If he had other relatives, why would he
> >have to go to the Dursleys?"
> 
> It's even better, it covers relative, albeit *close:*
> 
> Official Site, Section: Rumours
> 
> [Rumor] Professor Dumbledore is Harry's real grandfather/close 
> relative of some description.
> 
>  [Rowling] "If Dumbledore had been Harry's grandfather, why on earth 
> would he have been sent to live with the Dursleys?"
> 
> She obviously avoids the question, as well as raising another that has 
> chaffed me for a long time....i.e. the whole Privet Drive business.
> 

Simple, really.
Lily with red hair, DD with hair that possibly used to be red - 
misdirection; a red herring.
Privet Drive is where his *mother's* blood dwells, which is how the
protection was set up.
But it was James that came from a pureblood line - and if DD could
be connected to that side of the family....

Kneasy








From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 23:01:15 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:01:15 -0000
Subject: Ages
In-Reply-To: <drjgmd+vn3r@...>
Message-ID: <drjhfr+c8tm@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> Kneasy
> But it was James that came from a pureblood line - and if DD could
> be connected to that side of the family....
> 

A sneaky thought.
This Black geneology thingy is supposed to be revealed/available for
examination at the back end of next month some time.

What's the odds that DD is hidden by a splotch blanking out his name?
He'd qualify easily for the old harridan's Black spot treatment, wouldn''t he?
 
Kneasy






From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 23:01:12 2006
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:01:12 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
Message-ID: <drjhfo+7cfe@...>

Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3788 :

<< Snape tells Voldy.
One year later Snape is spying for DD.
Voldy takes no action on the prophecy for almost two years. 
Voldy's interpretation of the prophecy points to the Potters and
Longbottoms and it is this that causes Snape to switch sides. >>

If Snape changed sides because LV was planning to kill the Potters and
Longbottoms, LV must have taken *some* action already, at least to
analyze and interpret the prophecy and check out the birthdates of
either all new babies or all his opponents or all living wizards born
in July (surely his agents inside the Ministy and inside the Daily
Prophet can easily pluck that info from the files), and to decide whom
to target. Because if he hadn't yet decided by 1980 to target the Ls
and Ps. Snape couldn't have turned against him in 1980 because he was
targetting the Ls and Ps. 

LV may have been targetting the Potters for a long time before he
succeeded in killing them. When Harry was born, his parents were
either in hiding or about to go into hiding (from two different JKR
interviews about why Harry doesn't have a godmother), which may mean
they had already survived an attack or that one of DD's spies had
warned him that LV was targetting them (or just that they were doing
important secret work and didn't want to be interrupted). LV's
attempts to find them may have included capturing and torturing,
Imperius'ing, Legilimens'ing, or Veritaserum'ing people who seemed
likely to know something about the hiding. LV may have gotten 'warm' a
couple of times, forcing them to change their hiding place. Once he
had Peter (or Remus) under sufficient control, he may have found out
about the new hiding place while they were still moving in. It may
have been this history of LV coming closer and closer that led DD to
suggest using Fidelius.

<< Did Voldy try a soft approach before resorting to death and
destruction? Is this where the "thrice defied" fits in? And does this
link to Hagrid's comment "Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who
never tried to get 'em on his side before."? >>

Neville is a pureblood, so both his parents were purebloods, so Voldie
would probably have liked to get them on his side, in addition to
enjoying watching them kill their baby in loyalty to him. Lily was
Muggle-born, so presumably he would have required James to kill her as
well as the baby in order to join the Death Eaters.

Dungrollin wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3796 :

<<  A ghost has a mind but no body. (Assumption #2) Presumably a ghost
still has a soul that hasn't passed on to wherever these things go,
since you need a soul to have a mind, and they appear to be conscious
thinking things. >> 

According to Snape's one DADA lesson that we were permitted to see
"[a] ghost ... is the imprint of a departed soul left upon the
earth[.]" That suggests that all the ghost has/is in this world is a
mind and an image, hiser soul having 'departed' to the next world to
wait for himer. In which case, Vapormort is different from a ghost in
still having a (bit of tattered) soul as well as a mind, but no image.
(If he had NO image, how was he able to communicate to Quirrell to
seduce him?) 

So why is Vapormort, with a soul, 'less than the meanest ghost',
without a soul? The ghosts seem to be free to travel at will, as well
as playing Head Polo and making scary noises, and it seems to me that
Vapormort is unable to travel except when possessing a body. Otoh if
Voldie travelled to Britain with Quirrell by possessing small animals
until he possessed Quirrell, how could he talk to Quirrell with small
animal vocal organs? If he left the animal just long enough to speak
to Quirrell, wouldn't he be snapped like a rubber band back to Albania
as he was when he left Quirrell?

<< We never see any of the Hogwarts ghosts using magic, but Harry has
never actually asked whether they can or not. >>

That's something I've long wanted to know. I like to think that Peeves
is afraid of the Bloody Baron because the Bloody Baron is the only
ghost at Hogwarts who can do magic. My only idea as to how the BB can
still do magic despite being dead is that he was killed in some
special magical way.

(Hi, Rebecca, I never thought he might be Grindelwald. If DD
'vanquished' G by turning him into some kind of powerless ghost, why
is Peeves still scared of him? If he's a powerful ghost, how is he
'vanquished'?)

Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3808 :

<< Were you aware that Harry's grandfather was:
a) named Charles
(snip)
Thought not.
Well you do now. >>

http://chance.slashcity.net/blackfamilytree.html
(About which I feel some disappointment; I thought it would be cute if
the Black family arms was solid black, or at least a black image on a
black background (which violates the color-on-metal/metal-on-color law
of heraldry, but since when do Dark Wizards care about laws?). Also,
the astronomical naming thing. It perhaps came in with Ursula (Ursus
Minor) Black nee Flint, whose son was named Arcturus (the bear-herder
IIRC), but his sister Belvina and daughters Callidora and Charis
aren't known to me as stars, constellations, planets, or moons.)

I believe that just because there is a Potter on the Black Family Tree
doesn't prove that that Potter is related to James and Harry. Besides,
Dorea (astronomical? connecting to the constellation Doradus seems
far-fetched) was born 1920 died 1977, ie at age 57, which is not -"she
was old and she died"- even in Muggle terms ("They were old in
wizarding terms, and they died" from
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm
)

Besides, I was hoping that James's father was named Claibourne, or at
least Clayton.

(Hi, Lyn, you posted Dorea's age before I did.)

Carolyn wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3815 :

<< So, does this mean that Callidora is the first name of Neville's
grandmother? >>

Neville's grandmother's first name is Augusta. Not only did the Daily
Prophet use it in the first chapter of HBP: << Most seem reassured by
the new Minister's tough stand on student safety. Said Mrs. Augusta
Longbottom, "My grandson, Neville >> but so does McGonagall when
telling Neville to take Charms instead of Transfiguration: "Take
Charms," said Professor McGonagall, "and I shall drop Augusta a line
reminding her that just because she failed her Charms O.W.L., the
subject is not necessarily worthless." 

Talisman wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3829 :

<< I, for one, think it would be interesting to follow the tree both
ways--back to, say, the founder's level, to see if all that snake
hardware at 12GP is there for a reason. >>

If it was *my* Potterverse, all the old Dark Wizard families would
claim to be descended from Salazar Slytherin and would have put his
serpent on their arms. I like a black serpent on a black field for the
Black arms. (In *my* Potterverse, the Malfoys are first among peers,
tracing their pureblood lineage back to 800-something BC via a
millenium or so of generations living on Avalon, and *they* claim old
Salazar to have 'married' into their family, but they still wrapped
his serpent around the sword on their arms.)

(Specifically, I think that the Malfoy dedication to their family
lineage requires selective breeding of Malfoys as much as of
Hippogryffs, and the then-head of the Malfoy family who discovered
Salazar's power and cunning, ordered each of his sisters and grown
daughters to bear a child by Salazar, and arranged marriages between
these children and the non-Salazar Malfoy children, making sure, for
example, that his oldest son's oldest son married a girl who was
Salazar/Malfoy on both sides. Parts of their family tree are tangled.)

<< So why do some people get to claim relatives, and others not? The
Gaunts claimed Salazar Slytherin as their relation, and Hepzibah
Smith claimed Helga Hufflepuff, though she characterized it as a
*distant* relation.
In both of these cases, the relation goes back about a thousand
years, and the blood must at least be traced partially through
maternal lines, accounting for the difference in surnames. >>

I *think* surnames in Britain hadn't been regularized yet in the 990s.
The 'surnames' Slytherin and Hufflepuff would have been epithets given
to the individuals and not inherited by their offspring.

Talisman wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3832 :

<< You know this *relationship* will have something to do with the
REAL reason Snape and Sirius hated each other. 
Let's just revisit the idea that this gives more acid to Sirius's dig
to Snape that 12GP is HIS house (and he's the boss of it :P) >>

We can think that Eileen Prince married the first man she could get a
Love Spell to stick on, because she was pregnant by a married wizard,
specifically Mr. Black, but I don't think JKR will put that in her book. 

Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3833 :

<< Difficult to imagine that no-one else shares Slyth blood if the
pool of 'acceptable' pureblood breeders as small as yesterday's chart
indicates. Well, there is one way, but incest is such a nasty word. >>

Dumbledore mentioned the Gaunts' habit of marrying their first
cousins. Imagine, generation after generation of the Gaunt heir and
his sister each marrying their first cousin and each having a son and
a daughter so as to provide spouses for the next generation of Gaunts,
until suddenly Marvolo and his late wife were both only children, so
their son and daughter had no one to marry except each other -- no
wonder Merope preferred a Muggle! 

Nora wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3834 :

<< Andromeda most likely met Ted in Hogwarts, given the proximate
dates and the general pattern in Rowling's world, where we have
several examples of school couples marrying. Now, Sluggy tells us that
all the Blacks but Sirius were Slytherins, thus including Andromeda. I
wonder how she escaped the dominant climate of the House and time to
marry a Muggle-born guy? >>

Maybe he was a Muggle-born Slytherin? Maybe one who was so good at
Quidditch that his housemates forgot to despise him for being Muggle-born?

Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3842 :

<< Simple, really.
Lily with red hair, DD with hair that possibly used to be red -
misdirection; a red herring.
Privet Drive is where his *mother's* blood dwells, which is how the
protection was set up.
But it was James that came from a pureblood line - and if DD could
be connected to that side of the family....  >>

Yes, but if McGonagall knew that James and Sirius were first cousins
or Dumbledore was Jame's great-grandfather, why didn't she argue with
DD's statement that the Dursleys 'are the only family he has left'.






From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid  Sun Jan 29 23:43:14 2006
From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Lyn J. Mangiameli)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:43:14 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drjhfo+7cfe@...>
Message-ID: <drjjui+7t1i@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at w...> 
wrote:

> I believe that just because there is a Potter on the Black Family Tree
> doesn't prove that that Potter is related to James and Harry. Besides,
> Dorea (astronomical? connecting to the constellation Doradus seems
> far-fetched) was born 1920 died 1977, ie at age 57, which is not -"she
> was old and she died"- even in Muggle terms ("They were old in
> wizarding terms, and they died" from
> http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm
> )

> 
> (Hi, Lyn, you posted Dorea's age before I did.)

And you just beat me with this observation. I am growing increasingly suspicious here. It is 
just so easy to seize upon the mention of a Potter in this section of the family tree and 
make the assumption it is "our" Potter's lineage - - just as it is to assume about Neville's. 
Great catch in the following, though of course if Rowling wanted to explain it away, she 
could just say "Gran" was known by her middle name.
> 
> Carolyn wrote in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3815 :
> 
> << So, does this mean that Callidora is the first name of Neville's
> grandmother? >>
> 
> Neville's grandmother's first name is Augusta. Not only did the Daily
> Prophet use it in the first chapter of HBP: << Most seem reassured by
> the new Minister's tough stand on student safety. Said Mrs. Augusta
> Longbottom, "My grandson, Neville >> but so does McGonagall when
> telling Neville to take Charms instead of Transfiguration: "Take
> Charms," said Professor McGonagall, "and I shall drop Augusta a line
> reminding her that just because she failed her Charms O.W.L., the
> subject is not necessarily worthless." 
> 
> 
> If it was *my* Potterverse, all the old Dark Wizard families would
> claim to be descended from Salazar Slytherin and would have put his
> serpent on their arms. I like a black serpent on a black field for the
> Black arms. (In *my* Potterverse, the Malfoys are first among peers,
> tracing their pureblood lineage back to 800-something BC via a
> millenium or so of generations living on Avalon, and *they* claim old
> Salazar to have 'married' into their family, but they still wrapped
> his serpent around the sword on their arms.)
> 
> (Specifically, I think that the Malfoy dedication to their family
> lineage requires selective breeding of Malfoys as much as of
> Hippogryffs, and the then-head of the Malfoy family who discovered
> Salazar's power and cunning, ordered each of his sisters and grown
> daughters to bear a child by Salazar, and arranged marriages between
> these children and the non-Salazar Malfoy children, making sure, for
> example, that his oldest son's oldest son married a girl who was
> Salazar/Malfoy on both sides. Parts of their family tree are tangled.)


Another possibility here is that a Malfoy was SS's mother (assuming he was a full blood).

 
> We can think that Eileen Prince married the first man she could get a
> Love Spell to stick on, because she was pregnant by a married wizard,
> specifically Mr. Black, but I don't think JKR will put that in her book. 

Or that the child's true paternity had to be hidden for his protection. I'm still of the 
persuasion we will find a blood link between DD and Snape. I continue to think that would 
create the greatest irony and dissonance for Harry.

> Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3842 :
> 
> << Simple, really.
> Lily with red hair, DD with hair that possibly used to be red -
> misdirection; a red herring.
> Privet Drive is where his *mother's* blood dwells, which is how the
> protection was set up.
> But it was James that came from a pureblood line - and if DD could
> be connected to that side of the family....  >>
> 
> Yes, but if McGonagall knew that James and Sirius were first cousins
> or Dumbledore was Jame's great-grandfather, why didn't she argue with
> DD's statement that the Dursleys 'are the only family he has left'.
>

I think you're likely right here. But cannot restrain myself from beating the drum again that 
DD had to hide the existance of his family. I would have left them (and thus him) way too 
vulnerable to his formidible adversaries. 


Ah, this fragment she has bestowed is such fun.






From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 11:18:59 2006
From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:18:59 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drjjui+7t1i@...>
Message-ID: <drksn3+r25t@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Lyn J. Mangiameli" 
<kumayama at e...> wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> 
> wrote:
> 
> Great catch in the following, though of course if Rowling wanted to 
explain it away, she could just say "Gran" was known by her middle 
name.
> > 
> > Carolyn wrote in
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/3815 :
> > 
> > << So, does this mean that Callidora is the first name of 
Neville's grandmother? >>
> > 
Rita:
> > Neville's grandmother's first name is Augusta. Not only did the 
Daily Prophet use it in the first chapter of HBP: << Most seem 
reassured by the new Minister's tough stand on student safety. Said 
Mrs. Augusta Longbottom, "My grandson, Neville >> but so does 
McGonagall when telling Neville to take Charms instead of 
Transfiguration: "Take Charms," said Professor McGonagall, "and I 
shall drop Augusta a line reminding her that just because she failed 
her Charms O.W.L., the subject is not necessarily worthless." 
> > 

Carolyn:
Aargh, well-spotted Rita! But just so annoying that Callidora is 
evidently still living and just the right age to be Neville's gran...

She's definitely teasing us, alas.






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 12:16:33 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:16:33 +0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less than Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
Message-ID: <A7698C32-E187-41ED-9E37-904A5CC6A5BE@...>

 > > I believe that just because there is a Potter on the Black  
Family Tree
 > > doesn't prove that that Potter is related to James and Harry.  
Besides,
 > > Dorea (astronomical? connecting to the constellation Doradus seems
 > > far-fetched) was born 1920 died 1977, ie at age 57, which is not  
-"she
 > > was old and she died"- even in Muggle terms ("They were old in
 > > wizarding terms, and they died" from
 > > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705- 
tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm
 > > )
 >
 > >
 > > (Hi, Lyn, you posted Dorea's age before I did.)
 >
 > And you just beat me with this observation. I am growing  
increasingly        > suspicious here. It is just so easy to seize  
upon the mention of a Potter in
 > this section of the family tree and make the assumption it is  
"our" Potter's  > lineage - - just as it is to assume about Neville's.
 > Great catch in the following, though of course if Rowling wanted  
to explain > it away, she could just say "Gran" was known by her  
middle name.



OK. Let's get to grips with this one; worth the effort, I think.

The first mention I can find of Harry's grandparents  is in the  
National Press Club interview 1999:

Q. "What happened to Harry's grandparents?"
A. "Um, various interesting things, but again, I'm not  going to  
share [...] we have time for another question because I didn't answer  
that one."
(Very different to later references. Three possibilities occur - a  
throw-away line; hadn't thought through the grandparent back-story  
and so was unprepared for the question; a glimpse of something  
interesting. And our Jo is very rarely caught out unprepared ... so  
place your bets.)

Then the World Book Day bash 2004:

Q. "What happened to Harry's grandparents?"
A. "They're all dead and not particularly important to the story."
(An editors note is appended to this in the search engine - "....  
could refer to either the Evans grandparents or the Potter  
grandparents."
Interesting that the editor doesn't offer the possibility that it  
could refer to both sets.)

Then there's the TLC epic part 3 mentioned above.
Looks straightforward - 'cept it ain't necessarily so.

"James's  parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was  
born, which explains the only child, very pampered had-him-late-in- 
life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were  
old in  wizarding terms, so they died."

We don't know much about wizarding fertility, but will it be all that  
different from the Muggle version? If not, then 39/40/41 is old to  
have a first child (James born '59 or '60, Dorea in 1920 - assuming  
they are linked).
So in the terms of this answer, were James's parents old crumblies or  
old comparatively ("getting on a little when he was born") on  
becoming parents for the first time? My impression is that wizarding  
couples breed early, they don't leave it until the mother's forty  
before getting started.
It starts to look less clear-cut than first impressions would imply.

Additionally, it requires unlikely coincidences (or authorial malice)  
that at this late stage she throws into the mix:

1. another hitherto unsuspected wizarding family called Potter  
(recall the Mark Evans uproar, which Jo found embarrassing and  
apologised over)

2. that were pureblood (if Charlus not pureblooded then Dorea would  
have been splotched from the family escutcheon, like others)

3. that had one son

4. at least one of the couple dies in the narrow window between James  
leaving Hogwarts and fathering Harry.

Not happy for that many coincidences associated with a key name like  
Potter.


Kneasy

P.S.
The Augusta/Callidora question.
Anyone remember the Algenon/Augustus Rookwood controversy?








From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 15:33:58 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:33:58 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: By the way....
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF65058@...>

If it were a draft genealogy, that would answer some of the questions
about similarities to the characters we know that don't quite fit.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of ewe2
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 3:42 AM
> To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [the_old_crowd] Re: By the way....
> 
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 06:09:02PM -0000, Barry Arrowsmith wrote:
> > I've created a TIFF file, but I don't have access to create a new
file
> in
> > the file section.
> 
> So what's the betting this was a draft genealogy that Jo didn't have a
> problem
> with publicizing? A rough for OotP that was later revised, but is good
for
> some red fishies for the fans? The woman has made me paranoid...
> 
> ewe2
> 
> --
> Just because we look like sheep doesn't mean we aren't penguins.
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 15:46:25 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:46:25 -0700
Subject: Harfang Longbottom?
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FF65059@...>


Harfang Longbottom? Like Home of the (Not So) Gentle Giants Harfang?
What exactly was this fellow up to to get slammed with a name like that
from Narnia-familiar JKR? Luring Muggle guests in and eating them for
the Autumn Feast? 

Eileen




From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 16:04:51 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:04:51 -0700
Subject: Did someone say Crouch? RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: By the way....
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BFD@...>

Carolyn:
> Another thing, Charis Black (1919-1973) surely can't be the Mrs
> Crouch who died in Azkaban if her husband's name was Casper?
> Irritating, as the 1973 date is exactly right for that event. If
> Bartemious Sr was their son, Barty Jr would be Harry's generation,
> which he wasn't.

No, it's not right. Mrs. Crouch died two or three years *after* Harry
was born. 1982 or 83. 

Anyway, we know Barty Jr. was nineteen at the time of the Longbottom
incident in 1981. Birthdate of 1962 then. There's quite enough time
there for Charis to marry, have Bartemius Sr., and for him to grow up
and marry as well. So I'd peg Charis and Caspar as Barty Sr's parents.

Ok, has anyone read Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books? Because I'm
beginning to be reminded of the aristocratic family trees in that
series. Tangled and inbred as anything, and everyone is married into a
family with a frankly insane streak, the Vorrutyers.  Any weirdness is
blamed on Vorrutyer blood, and a lot of the main characters worry that
they've inherited the Vorrutyer madness. I see the Blacks as the
equivalent. 

Eileen




From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 16:48:49 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:48:49 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drjhfo+7cfe@...>
Message-ID: <drlg1h+s0is@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:
 
> Maybe he was a Muggle-born Slytherin? Maybe one who was so good at
> Quidditch that his housemates forgot to despise him for being 
> Muggle-born?

A nice supposition, but the elusive Muggle-born Slytherin is still an 
entirely fanonical creation.  Half-blooded (Muggle and wizard) 
Slytherins are canon, but still no dice on going all the way.  I 
suppose that there could be some plot thread with these revelations 
further down the line, but I don't see it happening; this is the kind 
of thing that it would be nice to get a simple yes/no on from the 
website.

IMO, it's still thematically most coherent to have no Muggle-born 
Slytherins, that being a directive given the Sorting Hat by Salazar and 
thus remaining with Hogwarts despite its demerits.

-Nora would like some little website tidbits, yes






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 17:09:37 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:09:37 -0700
Subject: Muggleborns and the Hat RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BFE@...>

Nora:
> IMO, it's still thematically most coherent to have no Muggle-born
> Slytherins, that being a directive given the Sorting Hat by Salazar
and
> thus remaining with Hogwarts despite its demerits.

Can the hat detect blood? Can anyone? Is there actually an objective
difference between Muggleborns and not? Or do you mean it would detect
thoughts? 

As far as Tom had evidence when he came to Hogwarts, he *was*
Muggleborn. He was convinced, however, that he was magically descended.
Did that belief get him into Slytherin, or just his blood itself? 

Eileen




From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 17:11:31 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:11:31 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drlg1h+s0is@...>
Message-ID: <drlhc3+sc1l@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:

> IMO, it's still thematically most coherent to have no Muggle-born 
> Slytherins, that being a directive given the Sorting Hat by Salazar 
> and thus remaining with Hogwarts despite its demerits.

Er, to revise myself, I don't actually have any strong opinions (or 
canon) for any direct Slytherin involvement with the Sorting Hat (I 
think).  But if the hat is designed to represent the Founders and 
choose according to their preferred criteria (or at least to offer 
feedback or whatever), then it makes a lot of sense that Muggle-borns 
don't get into Slytherin House.

-Next time, Nora thinks harder about tiny details before posting






From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 17:57:18 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:57:18 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drlg1h+s0is@...>
Message-ID: <drlk1u+lf6q@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:

> A nice supposition, but the elusive Muggle-born Slytherin is still an 
> entirely fanonical creation.  Half-blooded (Muggle and wizard) 
> Slytherins are canon, but still no dice on going all the way.  I 
> suppose that there could be some plot thread with these revelations 
> further down the line, but I don't see it happening; this is the kind 
> of thing that it would be nice to get a simple yes/no on from the 
> website.
> 
> IMO, it's still thematically most coherent to have no Muggle-born 
> Slytherins, that being a directive given the Sorting Hat by Salazar and 
> thus remaining with Hogwarts despite its demerits.
> 

Pippin:
Heh heh. That presupposes you know what the theme is. And Muggleborn
Slytherins are no longer an entirely fanonical concept.

Slughorn declares that he used to tell Lily she ought to have been in his
House. (HBP ch 4)

 While he's not the Hat, and it's not proof that Muggleborns are
eligble, he was head of Slytherin, and ought to know who was eligible
and who wasn't.

I remind you (again) that Slytherin was noted for his disregard of rules.
Certainly there are loads of Slytherins who aren't "of great cunning"
so why couldn't the Hat be just as flexible about pure blood?

Pippin






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 18:17:30 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:17:30 -0000
Subject: Muggleborns and the Hat RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BFE@...>
Message-ID: <drll7q+74v4@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:

> Can the hat detect blood? Can anyone? Is there actually an objective
> difference between Muggleborns and not? Or do you mean it would detect
> thoughts? 
>
> As far as Tom had evidence when he came to Hogwarts, he *was*
> Muggleborn. He was convinced, however, that he was magically 
> descended.  Did that belief get him into Slytherin, or just his blood 
> itself? 

That is a very interesting set of questions.  I suppose that for J. 
Random Muggleborn, it would be easy for that hat to figure things out--
they're probably sitting up there going "Wow, this is all so new and 
cool, how will I fit in here, I've never done magic before", etc.  
These ones could easily be weeded out of being put into Slytherin House.

Young Tom Riddle certainly throws some kinks into the clean scenario, 
and I have no answers but to say that's an utterly intriguing question 
and should certainly be asked.

-Nora directs all opera fans to the Rysanek fest over at Parterre






From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 18:23:40 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:23:40 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drlk1u+lf6q@...>
Message-ID: <drlljc+edag@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
> Heh heh. That presupposes you know what the theme is. And Muggleborn
> Slytherins are no longer an entirely fanonical concept.
> Slughorn declares that he used to tell Lily she ought to have been 
> in his House. (HBP ch 4)
> 
> While he's not the Hat, and it's not proof that Muggleborns are
> eligible, he was head of Slytherin, and ought to know who was 
> eligible and who wasn't.

But English modals are so delightfully ambiguous, much more so than 
the German system which currently plagues me.  One can say that to 
someone while knowing full well that it both is and was a complete 
impossibility.  I say to people "Oh, you ought to (or more likely I 
say 'should have' because 'ought' is less common, I think, in 
vernacular American English) have come" even when I know full well 
that it was utterly impossible for them to have.

Maybe even *especially* when I know that they absolutely could not 
have come.

> I remind you (again) that Slytherin was noted for his disregard of 
> rules. Certainly there are loads of Slytherins who aren't "of great 
> cunning" so why couldn't the Hat be just as flexible about pure 
> blood?

Well, still going with the scanty canon that we have, it was the 
blood issue which broke the whole alliance of Founders down, wasn't 
it?  Be it safety or the hints that Salazar just thought pure blood 
was innately better, that's what we have to go on.  I agree, of 
course, that this theme could gain additional information to the 
point where we really have to rethink it, where a different angle is 
revealed as always having been possible in the incomplete knowledge 
that we have.  But as of right now I'm going with what canon we have 
(and the continued importance of the blood theme and how people treat 
it), rather than the inclination to paint Salazar in as kindly and 
flexible a light as one can.

-Nora loves her some subjective modals






From erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 18:35:40 2006
From: erebstock at lucky_kari.yahoo.invalid (Eileen Rebstock)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:35:40 -0700
Subject: Longbottom RE: Did someone say Crouch? RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: By the way....
Message-ID: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BFF@...>

I wrote:
> Anyway, we know Barty Jr. was nineteen at the time of the Longbottom
> incident in 1981. Birthdate of 1962 then. There's quite enough time
> there for Charis to marry, have Bartemius Sr., and for him to grow up
> and marry as well. So I'd peg Charis and Caspar as Barty Sr's parents.

Taking another look at it, the same goes for the Longbottoms. Charis's
sister Callidora was born in 1915. If she married out of Hogwarts, she
could have had a child in 1933, who'd have gone to Hogwarts in 1944.
That child would have married Augusta, who at the same age or a few
years older would be within McGonagall's generation, close enough anyway
to be on first names basis decades later. (Years matter less when you
get older.) She then has Frank. Neville's born in 1980, so that leaves
time for Frank to get married and along comes Neville. 

Callidora still alive? It's not impossible, though it would seem that
Neville doesn't have too much of a relationship with her if so. If she's
a darkish witch - and her husband does have that sinister name - there
might be reason for Augusta to keep her grandson away from her. Goodbye,
ESE Gran Longbottom. Hello, ESE Great-Gran Longbottom.

The other question is which year the tapestry portrays. Callidora might
be dead by *now* in the text. 

Oh, gee, you know what this means. Barty Jr. and Frank Longbottom were
second cousins. Cozy little world.

Eileen




From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 18:55:39 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:55:39 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less than Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <A7698C32-E187-41ED-9E37-904A5CC6A5BE@...>
Message-ID: <drlnfb+np42@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>Kneasy 3848: 
>Snip of three extant *grandparents* interview responses, showing 
room for change of back story.<

>We don't know much about wizarding fertility, but will it be all 
that
>different from the Muggle version? If not, then 39/40/41 is old to
>have a first child >snip<.

>So in the terms of this answer, were James's parents old crumblies 
or
>old comparatively ("getting on a little when he was born") on
>becoming parents for the first time? >snip.
>It starts to look less clear-cut than first impressions would imply.

Talisman:
Amen. I was gearing up to respond just this way, last night, but 
decided to get some sleep instead.  I went to bed wishing someone 
else would take care of it, and look, here's Kneasy, pen 
unsheathed.... 

I agree with all Potter points made in this post:  There appears to 
be room for change in back story, there is a bit of ambiguity, and 
it's way too *coincidental* if these are not *our* Potters.  

Relevant to the varying interview remarks, assuming the 
grandparents' ages at death and manners of death are not essential 
to the plot (except that they be well out of the way), Rowling could 
easily have changed her mind about these details.

I would fill-out the *ambiguity* argument by adding that Rowling had 
already used appositive adjectives regarding the grandparents' ages: 
elderly/getting on a bit, both relating to when they became parents. 

One seems overstated, the other understated.  Inasmuch as she was 
speaking and being transcribed, it's quite possible that the last 
comment *old by wizarding terms* is simply another, yet again 
adjusted,  reiteration, and still related to the birth of James, 
rather than their deaths. 

Sentence's aren't quite as clean when we speak.

Further, Rowling slips-in some of her best clues as seemingly throw-
away details, while emphasizing the relatively unimportant decoy 
point.

In the case of the Mugglenet interview of July 16, 2005, the 
question put to Rowling was whether Harry's grandparents had been 
killed.

A simple, *no, they just obliged me by dying of natural causes* 
would have sufficed.  Nonetheless, Rowling goes on about James as a 
late-in-life, pampered, only child.

I think she was working to dove-tail *James was pampered* into the 
*were they killed?* response (and, yes,  I most certainly do think 
he is the *pampered prince* DD refers to in OoP).

I think her mind was focused on getting that in, and she stumbled 
over the best description of the new parents' ages (it being 
otherwise irrelevant to the actual question). 

>Kneasy, cont.:

>Additionally, it requires unlikely coincidences (or authorial 
malice)
>that at this late stage she throws into the mix:

>1. another hitherto unsuspected wizarding family called Potter
>(recall the Mark Evans uproar, which Jo found embarrassing and
>apologised over)

>2. that were pureblood (if Charlus not pureblooded then Dorea would
>have been splotched from the family escutcheon, like others)

>3. that had one son

>4. at least one of the couple dies in the narrow window between 
James
>leaving Hogwarts and fathering Harry.

>Not happy for that many coincidences associated with a key name like
>Potter.

Talisman:
Absolutely.  If she has started ginning-up parallel-universe family 
trees with key names placed where they *could* relate to major 
characters, but don't, she has entered a whole new level of evil.

Then Eileen took up what I wished someone would post regarding the 
Crouch family:

Responding to Carolyn's:
> Another thing, Charis Black (1919-1973) surely can't be the Mrs
> Crouch who died in Azkaban if her husband's name was Casper?
> Irritating, as the 1973 date is exactly right for that event. If
> Bartemious Sr was their son, Barty Jr would be Harry's generation,
> which he wasn't.

Eileen pointed out, in 3851:
>No, it's not right. Mrs. Crouch died two or three years *after* 
Harry
>was born. 1982 or 83.



>Anyway, we know Barty Jr. was nineteen at the time of the Longbottom
>incident in 1981. Birthdate of 1962 then. There's quite enough time
>there for Charis to marry, have Bartemius Sr., and for him to grow 
up
>and marry as well. So I'd peg Charis and Caspar as Barty Sr's 
parents.

Talisman: I agree, except, do we know that the Longbottom incident 
occurred in 1981? GH occurred in Oct. of that year, the Longbottom 
incident occurred sometime after, when the WW thought all the LV/DE 
business was well behind them, possibly even a year or two.

Finally, 
>Carolyn 3847:
>Aargh  >snip<... [it's] just so annoying that Callidora is
>evidently still living and just the right age to be Neville's 
gran...
>She's definitely teasing us, alas.

Talisman:
Now don't be so quick to drink the Hemlock.  The same argument that 
goes for the Crouch matter holds true for the Longbottom business.

Remember Dorea was rather older when she had her son.  Both 
Callidora and Charis  were old enough to have two generations of 
descendants.

Callidora (1915) could have had Augusta--without undue haste--by 
1935, leaving plenty of time for Augusta to produce Frank sometime 
in the 1950's.

Actually, we have even better evidence (assuming JKR has kept her 
maths straight).

Per Lexicon, per interview and OoP canon (which all pans out with 
me),  McGonagall (70 years old in CoS) was born in 1925, and by HBP 
has been teaching at Hogwarts for 40 years (39 in OoP), i.e., 1956.

McGonagall makes the dig about Augusta's failed Charms O.W.L. in HBP.

She can't possible be referring to anyone born in 1915, McG could 
not have had such a person as a student, nor even a classmate, 
herself being ten years younger.

On the other hand, O.W.L.s being set in the 5th year, McGonagall 
could have taught someone who was 15 in 1956, the year McG began 
teaching at Hogwarts.

That person would have been born in 1941, i.e. Augusta. 

Augusta could have had Frank anytime between 1959-62, giving him 
time to become an Auror, as well as a father, before being Crucio-ed 
in 1982-83.

In sum, I'm voting for Grandpa Charlus.

Talisman








From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Mon Jan 30 19:28:35 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:28:35 -0000
Subject: Longbottom RE: Did someone say Crouch? RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: By the way....
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BFF@...>
Message-ID: <drlpd3+tl1d@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
Eileen:
>Taking another look at it, the same goes for the Longbottoms. 
Charis's
>sister Callidora was born in 1915. If she married out of Hogwarts, 
she
>could have had a child in 1933, who'd have gone to Hogwarts in 1944.
>That child would have married Augusta, who at the same age or a few
>years older would be within McGonagall's generation, close enough 
anyway
>to be on first names basis decades later. (Years matter less when 
you
>get older.) She then has Frank. Neville's born in 1980, so that 
leaves
>time for Frank to get married and along comes Neville.

Talisman:
You know, I actually read all the intervening posts before sending 
my last one, and Eileen's hadn't shown up yet or I would have 
tailored my own.

Somewhere in my computations, I must have got myself turned around 
about Calli's son vs daughter (I wasn't intentinally making Frank 
illegitimate : P).  But, the same logic holds true, whether for 
Calli's son or daughter, allowing plenty of time for Calli to be 
Neville's great-grandma

But I took the extra  time on my dates:  

The necessary age differences do indicate that McG must have known 
Augusta via a teacher/student relationship. 1941 is the earliest 
Augusta can be born for that to happen, though Calli's son could 
have been born quite a bit earlier, and certainly as early as 1933.  

What's important in the Calli vs Augusta business is that Augusta 
can't have been born before 1941 and still have managed school 
experience with McG. I.e., it rules out Calli as being the right 
generation to be Neville's Gran, and establishes that Augusta--
whoever her parents might have been--must be young enough to be 
Calli's daughter/ daughter-in-law.

T

  







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 01:33:42 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:33:42 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drlljc+edag@...>
Message-ID: <drmepm+kti4@...>

Pippin:
> > I remind you (again) that Slytherin was noted for his disregard of 
> > rules. Certainly there are loads of Slytherins who aren't "of great 
> > cunning" so why couldn't the Hat be just as flexible about pure 
> > blood?

Nora:
> 
> Well, still going with the scanty canon that we have, it was the 
> blood issue which broke the whole alliance of Founders down, wasn't 
> it?

Pippin:
Was it? The Hat's information is surely at least as reliable as Professor
Binns's, and it says the alliance broke down because the Houses 
"Now turned upon each other and,/Divided, sought to rule."

The Hat contains the brains of the younger Slytherin, the one who
who helped found a school where Muggleborns could study 
magic. He must have been more flexible and tolerant than the
person who left the basilisk in the Chamber.

Pippin






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 01:58:34 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:58:34 -0000
Subject: Logical Limitations
Message-ID: <drmg8a+o8cd@...>

Well, look at this swelling pile of unanswered posts.   Since I'm 
only sporadically willing/able to commit the time for lengthy 
responses, I'll try the piecemeal approach, where it seems workable.

An ideal place is Kneasy's logic challenge.  

My answer to the question is: No.

Even assuming that the goal of clean logic can even be reached, 
which is quite an achievement for humans (ask any Vulcan), I don't 
believe it will get you home.  Too many textual *facts* are variable 
depending on the over-arching theory, or lack thereof.  

`Tis the happy marriage of logic and intuition that produces 
results, either alone is a barren exercise (though of the two, 
intuition, with its own subconscious logic, is the better bet). 
Subject, still further, to the talents of the individuals involved. 

Nope.  All hope is lost.

Still, it's inspiring to watch Kneasy, bravely lashed to the helm of 
the HMS Verity, as it slips inexorably toward the plummeting 
cataract... .

I won't quite constrain myself to such  mean masters as irrefutable 
fact and sterile logic, but I will be happy to point out (purely to 
be helpful to the adventure <g>) how, if I'm correct, your *facts* 
are not. And generally make other such various and annoying 
observations, as may occur to me.

Lets begin with your *primary evidence.*  The labeling of such 
matter is a task of no small importance; the reader's error in this 
regard cannot later be charged to the author.

As primary evidence in the GH incident, you list:

>Kneasy:
>Input - Primary evidence:
>Harry's visions.
>Voldy's account.
>The properties of an AK.
>Wand P.I.
>The nature of Protective Magic.
>The Ministry battle.

Let's look at the first two, for now.

Item 1, Harry's visions:

I assume you mean the visions in PoA; the little that Harry sees in 
PS/SS is subsumed in these later ones, in any event.

It seems to me that the PoA visions come in two distinct flavors: 
Dementor and Boggart.

The only primary source for details of what a person might 
experience in a bona fide Dementor attack, is Harry. (Hagrid and 
Dudley just give us the general *bad memories/thought I'd never be 
happy again* bit.)

Because everything Harry sees on these occasions involves the 
mysterious GH, and is consonant with what others have previously 
told him, it is hard to evaluate the verity of the substance of 
those visions. But, I'm willing to go with *real events,* as opposed 
to *imagined fears.*

Keeping in mind the question of whether what is uncovered is 
objective *factual* events, or just what the victim *thinks* 
happened, we know that Boggart experiences are manifestly capable of 
being bogus (cf. Hermione's exam failure, etc.)

(Yes, even *logic* tells me that JKR inserted that bizarre false-
memory story into her biography for a reason.)
 
So, does a bogus Dementor (Boggart) produce an objective vision of a 
real, albeit heretofore forgotten, unhappy event? Or is the Boggart, 
no matter what it's form, limited to its old playground: the 
imagination?  

If the later, then a great deal of the PoA vision *evidence* has 
scarlet fins, including the *take Harry and run* business--which all 
fits in nicely with the evidence that only two bodies (Lily and 
Voldemort) were found at GH and that Lupin was surprised that Harry 
*heard* James in a GH vision. 

You see, Snow, I can be agreeable.

Item 2, Voldy's account

Talisman:
I do not think that much of Voldy's account is primary evidence. 
Maybe just the part about what he meant to do.  Unfortunately, this 
requires interpretation--though I think there is a clear chain of 
events.

LV had no idea what happened to him at GH, and all that time he had 
to fret about it in Albania did him no good.  

Here is your answer to why Q!mort did not Accio the stone instead of 
grabbing Harry. He had no idea that he could not touch Harry.

I don't think most, if any, wizard would have gone for an Accio when 
they could just reach out and grab what they wanted from a kid. 

As an analogy, the Twins might have Apparated downstairs *just to 
show they could* but the Elder Weasleys trot up and down the old 
fashioned way, even though they clearly can pop around when they 
feel it's warranted.

Q!Mort's magic was working just fine on Harry, and I'm sure he would 
have used it had he any inkling of what he was in for, but it was a 
total and decisive surprise to the DL that he could not touch the 
boy.

That's why the post-PS/SS LV goes to all the bother of the GoF 
scheme--to get Harry's blood and counter-act the touch-me-not effect.

But most everything that LV knows about GH, and Harry's protections, 
he got from long chats with Wormtail on the way back to Riddle 
Manor.  

His experience in SS (thoughtfully arranged by DD, partially for 
just this purpose) and Wormtail's account--aka DD's scant 
explanations to Harry and/or general Weasley knowledge as of the end 
of PoA--are the sum of LV's insight into the matter.

His self-serving reiteration of events in the Graveyard is as far 
from primary evidence as you can get. Sure, he wants to sound like 
he knows what's going on, his reputation is on the line, but it's 
all hearsay.  

And, only as much as DD allowed--knowing full well it would scamper 
back to Albania.

Then there's another bad incident with the Potter brat, loss of 
face, questions of potency.

Just wait till Snape totters in, all regret and oaths of fidelity, 
seasoned with tasty misinformation about the additional part of the 
prophecy and it's supposed usefulness. Presto: LV's totally 
predictable behavior in Book 5. 

LV knows what he meant to do at GH, and why, but he remains clueless 
about what actually happened. Just as he has no idea that he's been 
dancing to DD's tune all this time.

You may as well just ask DD what`s going on, and if you are relying 
on HIM to put quality data into the fact aggregator, you're in for 
some bitter tears.

Talisman, back with more flies for the ointment, later.








From dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 02:04:31 2006
From: dontask2much at dontask2much.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Bowen)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:04:31 -0500
Subject: Muggleborns and the Hat was RE:Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
References: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BFE@...>
Message-ID: <008101c6260a$ad8c0140$6601a8c0@...>

>From: "Eileen Rebstock"

>Can the hat detect blood? Can anyone? Is there actually an objective
>difference between Muggleborns and not? Or do you mean it would detect
>thoughts?

Rebecca:

Hi Eileen :)

Interesting questions. I don't know about the Hat, but some canon about 
discerning Muggleborns does make me wonder. (Note:  Not committed to it, 
just lending it for conversation's sake.)  Does this from the Quidditch 
World Cup/Death Eater after party mean anything?

(GoF): "What's that supposed to mean?" said Hermione defiantly.

"Granger, they're after Muggles, "said Malfoy.  "D'you want to be showing 
off your knickers in midair?  Because if you do, hang around. . . they're 
moving this way, and it would give us all a laugh."

"Hermione's a witch," Harry snarled.

"Have it your own way, Potter," said Malfoy, grinning maliciously. "If you 
think they can't spot a Mudblood, stay where you are."

Draco has no love for Hermoine as it would appear from prior books (re:  CoS 
in particular), but I suppose it's possible he would lie about wizards 
spotting a Muggleborn, even if she is a witch. It just seemed relevant given 
what you asked - doesn't address the Hat though...

Rebecca

















From nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 02:47:23 2006
From: nrenka at nrenka.yahoo.invalid (nrenka)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:47:23 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drmepm+kti4@...>
Message-ID: <drmj3r+ih9p@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:

> Pippin:

> The Hat contains the brains of the younger Slytherin, the one who
> who helped found a school where Muggleborns could study 
> magic. He must have been more flexible and tolerant than the
> person who left the basilisk in the Chamber.

Ummm, could you cite me canon for the time of the creation of the Hat, 
and that this necessarily involved a younger Slytherin, and a younger 
Slytherin was genuinely more tolerant?  I suppose it's possible that he 
was 'more tolerant' at one time.  He was a Founder of the school 
wherein the other three took Muggleborns, but he certainly could have 
always had his beliefs (and just not expressed them as strongly).  
Meets at least one definition of tolerance, but isn't too impressive.

I find it hard to extrapolate a solid timeline from the Hat's poetry.  
I wonder how this would mesh with all of the 'Hat: Tool of Someone' 
theories...

-Nora tries hard not to equate it with another endless timeline 
argument which will show up in class in about four weeks






From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 02:59:13 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:59:13 -0000
Subject: Muggleborns and the Hat RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <5B35CABF8982E640B33467ACCBBB4E5FD25BFE@...>
Message-ID: <drmjq1+v8t5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Rebstock" 
<erebstock at c...> wrote:
> Can the hat detect blood? Can anyone? Is there actually an 
objective
> difference between Muggleborns and not? Or do you mean it would 
detect
> thoughts? 
> 
> As far as Tom had evidence when he came to Hogwarts, he *was*
> Muggleborn. He was convinced, however, that he was magically 
descended.
> Did that belief get him into Slytherin, or just his blood itself? 


Talisman:
Riddle did have all the *characteristics* that comport with 
Slytherin house.  He came to Hogwarts full of magical pride, desire 
for domination, and hatred of Muggles. He was single mindedly 
ambitious for power.  No other founder's criteria matched Riddle's 
personal characteristics as well as Slytherins.

He was certainly exponentially more ambitious than the shiftless 
Gaunt household, notwithstanding their claims of purity.

Rowling didn't give the most satisfying answer one might have hoped 
for, but perhaps the interviewers were on the right track in the 
July 16, 2005 Mugglenet interview, Part 2:

ES: Has the sorting hat ever been wrong?

JKR: No.

ES: Really?

JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory?

ES: I have heard a lot of theories.

JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry.

MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice 
comes more from a person's own head than the hat itself -

JKR: [makes mysterious noise]


Talisman:
Sure Salazar was all whipped up about pure blood, but it was 
Godric's hat, afterall ;).

And if the hat is any evidence (say in OoP), Godric knew that 
balancing the houses was key.  I.e. It's the qualities represented 
by the houses, and balance among these, that will restore the ideal 
state of harmony. Not blood, per se.

JKR: ...It is the tradition to have four houses, but in this case, I 
wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So 
Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and 
Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under 
the lake. So again, it was this idea of harmony and balance, that 
you had four necessary components and by integrating them you would 
make a very strong place. But they remain fragmented, as we know.
Muggelnet part 3

Talisman, humming a little tune to the lyrics of, *There's nothing 
hidden in your head / The Sorting Hat can't see, / So try me on and 
I will tell you / Where you ought to be...*(PS/SS 117).













From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 03:08:40 2006
From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 03:08:40 -0000
Subject: Muggleborns and the Hat RE: [the_old_crowd] Re: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drmjq1+v8t5@...>
Message-ID: <drmkbo+7gh2@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> 
wrote:
>And if the hat is any evidence (say in OoP), Godric knew that
>balancing the houses was key. I.e. It's the qualities represented
>by the houses, and balance among these, that will restore the ideal
>state of harmony. Not blood, per se.

Perhaps I should have gone the step further and explicitly pointed out 
that Rowling's balance quote/the Sorting Hat's OoP call for harmony 
and reintegration are metaphors for the qualities of a strong and 
successful individual (per JKr): 

Hard work, Brains, Ambition and Courage. 

That being the case, enough ambition will get you into Slythern, 
unless, of course, you insist on staying out. 

T






From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 11:38:35 2006
From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:38:35 -0000
Subject: Logical Limitations
In-Reply-To: <drmg8a+o8cd@...>
Message-ID: <drni7s+a3vr@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at y...> wrote:
> 
> An ideal place is Kneasy's logic challenge.  
> 
> My answer to the question is: No.
> 
> Nope.  All hope is lost.
> 
> Still, it's inspiring to watch Kneasy, bravely lashed to the helm of 
> the HMS Verity, as it slips inexorably toward the plummeting 
> cataract... .
> 

Verity.
This brings to mind Verity Treacle, a construct of the inimitable
Kenny Everett who devised a long list of comic characters that greatly 
upset those wishing for ''wholesome" TV. Sid Snot, Cupid Stunt, Marcel
Wave; absolutely hilarious. Verity was a late night TV/Sunday morning 
oh, so caring and compassionate agony aunt and her slot always ended
with some well-loved personality being fed into a mincer while singing 
a song full of uplifting sentiments.
Not so far from the true Kneasy nature, now I come to think of it.

> 
> Lets begin with your *primary evidence.*  The labeling of such 
> matter is a task of no small importance; the reader's error in this 
> regard cannot later be charged to the author.
> 
> As primary evidence in the GH incident, you list:
> 
> >Kneasy:
> >Input - Primary evidence:
> >Harry's visions.
> >Voldy's account.
> 
> Let's look at the first two, for now.
> 
> Item 1, Harry's visions:
> 
> I assume you mean the visions in PoA; the little that Harry sees in 
> PS/SS is subsumed in these later ones, in any event.
> 
> It seems to me that the PoA visions come in two distinct flavors: 
> Dementor and Boggart.
> 

Er... no.
I didn't count any Boggart induced bits, just the PS/SS memories and
the Dementor triggered flashbacks in PoA. 

> The only primary source for details of what a person might 
> experience in a bona fide Dementor attack, is Harry. (Hagrid and 
> Dudley just give us the general *bad memories/thought I'd never be 
> happy again* bit.)
> 

Enough to base a case on.
Canonically Dementors don't add anything, they don't induce anything;
they take - any happy or pleasurable sensation or memory. 
Thus all that remains is misery and unhappy memories.
Boggarts, now. They do induce feelings - of fear; that's how they work,,
even though the fear may not have any connection with any actual
past experiences of the target 'victim'. I doubt Pavarti was ever chased
by an unravelling mummy, or Seamus by a Banshee.
As for further 'primary evidence', try Jo's descriptions of what they
represent.

 
> Because everything Harry sees on these occasions involves the 
> mysterious GH, and is consonant with what others have previously 
> told him, it is hard to evaluate the verity of the substance of 
> those visions. But, I'm willing to go with *real events,* as opposed 
> to *imagined fears.*
> 

True.
Makes one think that Privet Drive wasn't so bad after all - which would
be most upsetting for some posters on another list, could be what they
fear more than anything else. Ridikulous! they'd cry.

> Keeping in mind the question of whether what is uncovered is 
> objective *factual* events, or just what the victim *thinks* 
> happened, we know that Boggart experiences are manifestly capable of 
> being bogus (cf. Hermione's exam failure, etc.)
> 

Since Harry is too dim to ask penetrating, or indeed sensible questions
that might produce answers that give us clues to the back-story, and
since the whole shamoodle is presented from Harry's viewpoint, then
fragmented memories is a valid option for laying down markers, I'd have 
thought. How else are we going to get a handle on what's happened?
 
> (Yes, even *logic* tells me that JKR inserted that bizarre false-
> memory story into her biography for a reason.)
>  

Yep, she did - Molly in OoP.

> So, does a bogus Dementor (Boggart) produce an objective vision of a 
> real, albeit heretofore forgotten, unhappy event? Or is the Boggart, 
> no matter what it's form, limited to its old playground: the 
> imagination?  
> 

We don't know.
A Boggart masquerading as a Dementor turned up in the 3rd task in GoF,
but no memories were reported, just a feeling of clammy coldness - which
is often associated with fear, anyway.

> 
> Item 2, Voldy's account
> 
> I do not think that much of Voldy's account is primary evidence. 
> Maybe just the part about what he meant to do.  Unfortunately, this 
> requires interpretation--though I think there is a clear chain of 
> events.
> 
> LV had no idea what happened to him at GH, and all that time he had 
> to fret about it in Albania did him no good.  
> 
> Here is your answer to why Q!mort did not Accio the stone instead of 
> grabbing Harry. He had no idea that he could not touch Harry.
> 

Really?
Then how come he obviously knew about (but failed to foresee the use
of) the protective charms, and makes a point of saying that he couldn't 
touch but now can in the graveyard scene? Who could tell him?
Implanted 'recovered' memories from a DE counsellor looking to nail 
Harry in court for enormous damages?
"I was fine until I had contact with that kid," said a frail and shaken
Evil Overlord after the hearing. "Intensive therapy has brought the 
realisation that it's all his fault, and I'm suing for loss of earnings,
loss of body, indescribable pain, mental trauma and having to subsist
on Albanian cooking."

Awaiting further comment with interest.

Kneasy









From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 15:03:30 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:03:30 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Pub/Less Than The Meanest Ghost/Black Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <drmj3r+ih9p@...>
Message-ID: <drnu82+n3pi@...>

 > > Pippin:
> 
> > The Hat contains the brains of the younger Slytherin, the one who
> > who helped found a school where Muggleborns could study 
> > magic. He must have been more flexible and tolerant than the
> > person who left the basilisk in the Chamber.

Nora:
> Ummm, could you cite me canon for the time of the creation of the Hat, 
> and that this necessarily involved a younger Slytherin, and a younger 
> Slytherin was genuinely more tolerant? 

Pippin:
The Hat was created at a time when the House system was working well
enough that the Founders desired to perpetuate it. 


"While still alive/They did divide/Their favorites from the throng,/
Yet how to pick the worthy ones/When they were dead and gone?" 
--Hat Song, GoF

The Hat says it was Gryffindor's idea  and all the founders 
put brains in the Hat:"The founders put some brains in me
so I could choose instead." -- Hat Song, GoF

The  Slytherin who contributed his brains to the Hat was
necessarily younger than the one who quarrelled with the other
Founders, unless, like TH White's Merlin, he aged backwards. <g>

Slytherin  was tolerant enough to be satisfied with the House system
and his friends' selections: "Thus the Houses and their founders/
Retained friendships firm and true." --Hat Song, OOP

The hat tells us that it saw dissension grow "So how could it have gone
so wrong?/How could such friendships fail?/Why I was there and
so can tell/The whole sad sorry tale." -- Hat Song, OOP

Since the Hat is sincere, we can't posit eeevil Slytherin who was
always planning to betray his pal Godric.

Nora:
 I suppose it's possible that he  was 'more tolerant' at one time.  
He was a Founder of the school  wherein the other three took 
Muggleborns, but he certainly could have  always had his beliefs 
(and just not expressed them as strongly).  
Meets at least one definition of tolerance, but isn't too impressive.


Pippin:
I'm not sure what you mean here. He preferred to teach pure-blood
wizards from the beginning, yes. That he did so fanatically is 
not supported by canon.  Indeed, the one year the Hat does not mention
blood is the year there is well-known halfblood student whom it seeks to
recruit for Slytherin.

I'm not saying younger Slytherin was an impressive example of tolerance,
just that he was willing to cooperate with the other Houses. That
he had no objection to bending rules when it was in his interest shows
a certain flexibility. That he was prone to see less virtue in Muggleborn 
students does not argue that he could see no virtue in them at all.

The Hat took Tom Riddle for Slytherin without any deliberation at
all, despite his belief that he was halfblood.   Rowling says that there
are not really any purebloods, just people who are selective about
acknowledging their ancestry.  

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=100

Are all the pure-blood families going to die out? (We've lost the 
Blacks and the Crouches during the series)

Don't forget that, as Sirius revealed in 'Order of the Phoenix', 
none of these families is really 'pure' ? in other words, they 
merely cross Muggles and Squibs off the family tree and pretend that 
they didn't exist. But yes, the number of families claiming to be pure 
is diminishing. By refusing to marry Muggles or Muggle-borns, they 
are finding it increasingly difficult to perpetuate themselves. This 
subject is touched upon in 'Half-Blood Prince'.
---
If there was some detectable difference between those who
have no wizarding blood and those who do, the so-called purebloods
would hardly be able to perpetuate this charade.

Pippin







From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Tue Jan 31 16:49:07 2006
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:49:07 -0000
Subject: Racist Gryffindor?
Message-ID: <dro4e3+pgkk@...>

Something I noticed while researching the Hat's songs for my 
previous post:

'Said Gryffindor, "We'll teach all those with brave deeds to their name"'
--Hat Song, OOP ch 11.

I  used to wonder how many eleven year olds had brave deeds to their name.
But perhaps I was taking it a little too figuratively. Names, after all, are
inherited. Perhaps Gryffindor considered courage in the same way
as Slytherin considered magical power -- passed down in families.

When accused of cowardice, NH Nick defends himself thusly:
"Terrifed? I hope I, Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, have never been
guilty of cowardice in my life! The noble blood that runs in my veins--"
--OOP ch 11

So it seems that Nicholas thinks his brave ancestors speak for his
courage and maybe the Hat does too. 

Pippin