[the_old_crowd] Re: Some questions

[Kathy King]

Talisman:



I am not kidding, at all, to say that, though we may well find a
Book 7 corollary to Snape's HBP vow, I do NOT expect it to involve
the ~nine-year-old-twins, even to the extent of a flashback episode
where they walk in to find Arthur and Molly vowing away, in
flagrante delicto.

They had older siblings coming home from Hogwarts with information
both academic and social; they could overhear their parentfs
conversations, including tales Arthur brought home from the
Ministry; they could  listen to wizard news reports; read wizard
novels; read the Daily Prophet, etc.



Snow:



All of these examples would allow the kids to know of the Vow but wouldn't
give them details on how to perform it. Arthur may have came home from work
with news that so and so just died due to his neglect in honoring a Vow he
had made but that doesn't give details on how it is performed. Unless they
actually saw the procedure enacted or were given step-by-step instruction,
how were they able to attempt to perform it? Also I got the distinct
impression that this Vow is of the Dark Arts variety of magic, not something
that is shared openly on public forums like the Daily Prophet or at Hogwarts
since Miss Know-it-all was unawares of the Vow at all.



Talisman:



You, of course, are perfectly free to go on imagining dire scenarios
in which the tender-aged twins are taught how to elicit unbreakable
vows, but I expect such efforts to come to naught.

Snow:



You cut me to the quick :)

I highly doubt that the twins were purposely taught, other than through
their own volition to spy. That was my point. The twins are known for their
unusual methods of spying with extendable ears and so on, that's how they
retrieve information and of course all new findings must be tested…"oh Ron".




Talisman:



Ifm not sure that Phoenix tears were ever established as
*all purpose* in the sense that they could cure anything and
everything.  If that were the case youfd think they would just have
a tank of them at St. Mungofs.  Wouldnft have had to fiddle around
with Arthurfs experimental stitches, etc.   Speaking of which,
surely, DD would ask Fawkes to squeeze a few out for an Order
member, wounded in the line of duty.

I have no doubt that Fawkes was dispatched to the CoS at DDfs
orders, and that it was no matter of happenchance that Fawkes was
specially suited for the job of protecting Harry from the Basilisk.

Ifm sure there are any number of other ailments he can cure, as
well.

On the other hand, I donft think that Fawkes is the answer to all
wizarding health problems.

Snow:



Phoenix tears have healing powers…no exclusions noted. The one thing you do
need however is a Phoenix to cry. Does the Phoenix pick and choose his
victim or is it by command that he can whip up some tears?



Snow:
We also know that Fawkes was at the rescue in the DOM when
>push came to shove but he is not essential with all his powers (of
eating an
>AK) when it comes down to the Horcruxes?

Talisman: (In a terribly insincere manner) Well, I suppose Fawkes
could try to eat the Hxes, and then someone could AK him... `course
some of the artifacts might be harder to swallow than others. : P
Then too, who would really want to AK Fawkes? Hefd have to fly
around the DEfs till he instigated an attack. All very tiresome.

Snow:



Well it isn't like he doesn't get rejuvenated from his ashes :) Although he
is indispensable for this reason, it does seem cruel to abuse the fact he
has a number of lives for the giving.



Talisman:
Phoenix tears have healing properties, and Fawkes can certainly take
a lethal hit and come back, but thatfs a different proposition than
saying that he can cure the effects of any curse that LV may have
used to protect his Hxes.  Whether Fawkes could destroy the Hxes
requires more information on exactly how that is done--something we
are unlikely to find out before Book 7, as the SK business is still
in the lead over at the FAQ poll.



Snow:



Well since the Diary, the ring, and the locket all had some type of
protection, it's a good bet that it's more than just finding the article in
order to destroy it. I agree I would like to have the Horcrux question
answered more so than the SK, although I doubt she'll answer either with a
satisfactory response. Her answers are either cryptic in nature or evasive
when the question is of an essential nature.

Talisman:


Letfs face it, if he could simply have pecked a hole in the Diary,
why didnft he do it straight away in CoS, and save Harry all the
bother?

Snow:



That wouldn't have allowed for the Big Bad Basilisk to get his just deserts
or for Harry to be carefully taught, would it?



Snow:
>(b) Dumbledore wants Snape to believe that he needs him desperately
for
>the job at hand

Talisman: DD does need Snape desperately for the job at hand.  I
donft think Snape is at all unaware of this fact.  Moreover, if
phoenix tears could have cured the hand, Ifm certain Snape would
have been aware of that, too.  The idea that DD is patronizing Snape
in order to make him feel more talented and useful than he really
is, is a pretty blatant misread, if you ask me.

Snow:



Just examples of possibilities, not that I believe any of them but the last:

Snow:
>However my personal favorite is that Dumbledore
>realized there is a close spy amongst them that caused Snape's
loyalties to
>be questioned by the deatheaters and Voldemort so Dumbledore had to
use his
>own demise to flush out the culprit.



Talisman: Itfs not at all clear to me what you mean.  That LV and
the DEfs questioned Snapefs loyalties is a matter of canon.  LV
may have accepted Snapefs explanations, but certainly he had his
reservations, ergo Wormtail on the premises *to assist* Snape in
unspecified ways, 24 / 7.  Bella makes it pretty clear that shefs
not buying Snapefs story, no doubt there are others in that camp.



Snow:



But why does Voldemort question if Snape is genuine to his cause? Is it
merely to keep Snape in check or has Voldemort learned of some foundation
for his suspicion that Snape may not be his man?  My suspicions are based on
assumptions however that Snape did not know of the plan against Dumbledore
until Narcissa was tricked into making him aware. It's only by this
assumption that I became curious as to why Voldemort did not allow Snape to
know of his plan. Why didn't the Dark Lord trust dear Severus, what caused
Voldemort to question Snape's loyalty? Now Snape has to be concerned that
Voldemort did not trust him with the plan, since he was unaware of it (?)
until Narcissa gave it up. Snape tells Dumbledore that Voldemort is
beginning to question his loyalties to him, which is why Dumbledore must
make it appear, to Voldemort, that Snape is truly loyal to Voldemort.
Unfortunately, if he pulls this off well, Snape would then appear to the
good guys as such.

The question is why Voldemort felt that Snape was no longer trustworthy and
therefore did not allow him knowledge of the plan. Did someone tell
Voldemort some inside information about Snape that caused Voldemort's
distrust?

I like this idea because it gives basis for what Dumbledore did and said all
year like telling Harry to trust no one except himself, Ron and Hermione.
Where did that come from, can't he trust the Order of the Phoenix members
any more? Not even the new head master? Dumbledore doesn't appear to be
trusting of anyone other than Severus these days, why?

This may only make sense to me but I like it.



Talisman:



On the other hand, I donft see your evidence that there is a new
traitor in the Order.  Havenft we done that one already?

Snow:



Recyclable!Jo. Yes, we have, but I don't think he has been caught yet. The
pieces only seem to fit, without pounding them into place, if the true Order
spy has yet to be flushed out. Everyone is still suspicious of everyone else
ergo something doesn't smell right in Denmark.



Snow:
> Dumbledore couldn't really trust anyone but Snape to his plans.

Talisman: DD generally works on a need-to-know basis.  Itfs the
prudent thing to do in the world of espionage.  That doesnft
signal  Wormtail redux.  Itfs just that loose lips happen, not to
mention Legillimens, veritaserum, torture, people listening at
keyholes, etc.  Moreover, not everyone is as good an actor as
Snape.  Need some real tears at the funeral.

On the other hand, someone else may know.

Snow:



Well if you were trying to find the source of the problem…that is if you
were suspicious of your allies, you wouldn't be able to allow anyone that
isn't totally trustworthy of where their loyalties lie in on your plans.
Snape however appears to have earned a spot on the list right next to Harry
in his trustworthiness for what ever reason but it must be a good one that
had to be kept private because no one knows what it is, not even McGonnegall
who is known to be the next to take the seat of honor once Dumbledore exits
stage left. Dumbledore doesn't even trust the next in line who will be
making all strategic moves against Voldemort but without vital information.
It appears Dumbledore doesn't trust anyone, why? Is he suspicious that one
of his league cannot be trusted with the details that most assuredly would
incriminate Snape as being true to Dumbledore? Dumbledore knows that the end
could be near for him and yet he chose to take Snape's secrets to the grave?
Was Dumbledore concerned that this information in the wrong hands could
thwart the whole operation (for Harry) that had been planned from the very
beginning? Snape's true identity could not be entrusted to anyone because he
is just that dire to the outcome, looks obvious to me, but it doesn't allow
the reasoning as to why Dumbledore wouldn't have entrusted at least the next
in line so they could continue the fight with knowledge unless he couldn't
be certain of anyone's loyalties. But again, why couldn't he trust at least
McGonnegall…is there a basis for his non-trusting behavior where it concerns
Snape? Dumbledore has even passed this behavior on to Harry…don't trust
anyone but Ron and Hermione.



Snow:
Snape was furious at Dumbledore and responded to him
>at the edge of the forest that he took "too much for granted"
because it
>would have been a scenario that had to be played out with everyone's
>cooperation; Draco, the spy, the DeatheatersEeveryone in the right
place at
>the right time and what if Snape hadn't been able to stop Fenrir

Talisman: Snape definitely didnft savor playing the *kill DD*
card.  Ifm not comfortable with the term *everyonefs cooperation,*
the parties you list were managed, they were not cooperating in the
plan, per se.  Draco was expected, it was his assignment; A DE death
squad to witness things was required, and expected; Snape doubtless
had to arrive at just the *right* time; I reserve judgment on
whether Fenrir was specifically necessary to the plan.  (Though on a
meta level, Ifm sure we needed the introduction)

Snow:



That's just it; everything had to play out neatly lest Dumbledore's life
would have been sacrificed by a true deatheater. Of course I am viewing this
operation, as the Dumbledore-didn't-really-die-scenario. Snape's arrival was
detrimental to the whole plan. If Snape hadn't come to the Tower the plan
would have failed. Snape's given words that Dumbledore takes too much for
granted was the fact that Dumbledore trusted that Snape would be able to
intervene and correct any situation but it could only play out in that favor
if all parties involved reacted as suspected they would.

Dumbledore knew what Draco was up to, he knew at the very least about the
RoR suspicions that Harry told him. Dumbledore knew that Hogwarts was in
jeopardy of infiltration by the DE's, which is why the Order was protecting
it in his absence. So Dumbledore's counter move was already decided for each
possibility but contingent to the deatheaters actions if they acted true to
form that they were not to attempt to kill Albus because it was up to Draco.
Snape on the other hand is viewing the matter from a different prospective
and knows that some of the old gang may jump the gun and take matters into
their own hands, or teeth as it is, since Fenrir was an example of the
concern Snape had; Dumbledore is taking too much for granted. Fenrir could
have cared less about the orders not to kill Dumbledore.



In closing I have one more question to add to the list:



We are all aware that Harry has the same birth date as his creator, which I
always contributed to the fact that this is her story but why was Voldemort
born the day her mother died?



Snow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]