It's All Relative (was:By the way....

[Talisman]

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca Bowen" 
<dontask2much at y...> wrote:
>Kneasy said:
(snip)
>Lyn -
>So how come Doria and Cally are still there?
>Weren't they disgraces too, marrying who they did?

>Rebecca:
>I imagine they weren't blown off because pureblood nobility adds to 
the
>family's worth and they need as much as they can get

Talisman:
I'll agree that the Blacks were primarily worried about establishing 
pedigree, and that, the Longbottom and Potter families being 
pureblood, there is no reason to believe that Dorea or Callidora 
made disfavored matches.

Even though other bad behavior could get you erased (e.g. Sirius 
running away / rejecting the family), there is no reason to believe 
that Harfang ever did anything that would have upset the elder 
Blacks.  

It *is* a little surprising that Charlus didn't get zapped, along 
with his descending line, for taking the run-away in.  After all, 
it's not much different in *kind* (though perhaps in degree) to give 
Sirius a temporary home, than it is to give him money to remain 
independent--which, of course, got Alphard blasted.

But, as JKR notes, *there are many stories between these lines.*  
Maybe Charlus was tying to play family diplomat and managed to keep 
friendly lines open with the Blacks.  It's just too much 
speculation, and probably not germane to any of our plot questions.

>Rebecca:
>the Noble House of Black isn't so "ancient"

Talisman:
There is no particular reason to think the House of Black began with 
Phineus.  It pays to be aware of the fact that the document JKR is 
donating is not a replica of the tapestry.  Inasmuch as the named 
generations stop at Harry's paternal grandparent's level, and only a 
headcount of the generation below is given, it clearly doesn't 
extend down to Regulus or Draco, as the tapestry did in Book 5.

Similarly, Book 5 doesn't establish Phineus as being the first 
generation shown.  Moreover, Phineus' sister: Elladora *The Chopper* 
was a Nigellus/Black, too, as was poor *deleted.*  These siblings 
descended, in turn, from a still earlier generation of the 
Nigellus/Black family, whether or not it's on the tapestry. 

This doesn't change the fact that the Blacks *cultivated* their 
pedigree.

I, for one, think it would be interesting to follow the tree both 
ways--back to, say, the founder's level, to see if all that snake 
hardware at 12GP is there for a reason.  

I mean, even if they were generally in Slytherin House, it would 
seem odd to make that the motif for their adult household.  Sort of 
like decorating your house, china, silverware, etc. with your high 
school mascot.  More than a bit declassé.

But if you were blood related to, say, Napoleon, you might well 
adopt the Emperor's bee for some of these purposes.

However, I think that even when we get the entire document, we'll be 
stuck with the levels of generation already shown.  They'll be shown 
more fully, but it will be lateral, with not much more information 
about who came before...or after. 

She's just trying to whip us into a frenzy.  I expect the countdown 
to Book 7 will hold more of this--provocative information, with 
relevant crumbs, if any, submerged in a lot of superfluous detail.  


>Rebecca:
>Sirius was blasted off, but he was on the tapestry in the first 
place and
>the house was an inheritance for him; Sirius is the last of the 
Blacks, as
>Phineas Nigellus says. Tonks isn't even part of the family, as she 
wasn't
>never added to the tapestry at all. 

Talisman:
Tonks isn't on the tapestry because her mother, Andromeda, was 
blasted off for marrying a muggle.  Anyone descending from that 
union would not be acknowledged, as they would necessarily be half-
bloods.

But, though they may have been able to edit their tapestry, and 
instruct their family elves, Sirius's parent's can't alter actual 
blood relations to suit their feelings.  Tonks is still Sirius's 
cousin, and a favorite one at that.

However, it is relevant that Tonks does not carry the Black family 
name, and was not a child of the (presumed) testators.

Even though he was at odds with his parents, Sirius was a pureblood, 
the last Black, and their child.

Dad may never have been as rabid as Mom, and may have had second 
thoughts by the time LV was having Regulus murdered.

I don't think the fact that Tonks was never entered on the tapestry, 
but that Sirius *once was,* has anything to do with the inheritance 
of 12GP, except that both are explained in terms of family facts.

However, this business of relations is very interesting, indeed.

Harry is said to have no living relatives, save the Dursleys.  But 
clearly, if James, Sirius, Narcissa, and even Darco, are all related 
to Phineus, Harry does have relatives. Possibly loads of them.  
Flints, Bulstrodes, Longbottoms, Burkes, and who knows what other 
families yet to be revealed. 

I think many of us may have suspected as much, after learning that 
most pureblood families are related, in Book 5, but here it is in 
spades.

Tsk, tsk, Dumbledore. 

Well, of course, old Dumbles likes to make the fuss about Lily's 
blood.  But, still *you have no other living relatives* seems to 
have been rather an ::coughliecough:: overstatement.

Perhaps he is making a distinction between sharing common blood, per 
se, and sharing it to some personal preference in degree of 
separation.  Apparently, inclusion on the same family tree (or at 
least blood-based eligibility to be included) under the same great-
great grandparent, is not the definition old DD likes to use.

By-the-by, Phineus is called Sirius's great-great grandfather, and 
according to the tree (assuming Charlus is James's father, which I 
think he is) he would be Harry's great-great grandfather, as well--
even though Sirius was James's age.  

Of course that's quite possible.  James is said to be a late-life 
treasure, so Dorea and Charlus were just getting around to popping 
out the 4th generation when the Blacks had managed that long enough 
ago so that the 4th generation had already produced a 5th. 

All the same, Harry and Sirius: the same degree of relation to old 
Phineus. Something to think about.   

So why do some people get to claim relatives, and others not? The 
Gaunts claimed Salazar Slytherin as their relation, and Hepzibah 
Smith claimed Helga Hufflepuff, though she characterized it as a  
*distant* relation.  

In both of these cases, the relation goes back about a thousand 
years, and the blood must at least be traced partially through 
maternal lines, accounting for the difference in surnames. 

The exact nature of either relation to the founders is not clear, 
though DD calls Riddle Slytherin's *last heir.*

Just why he is called an heir is not clear.  Did he inherit the 
Gaunt hut? Was that even ever part of Slytherin's estate? Doubtful. 
Did he fit the terms of some ancient dead-hand will that would have 
transferred the Slytherin locket to him, had Morfin cared to make 
arrangements? Doubtful.  I'm thinking Salazar would have blasted 
half-bloods off his tree, too.

Does DD call him *heir* just because he had *some* degree of Slyth 
blood? 

And, back to the matter of who is related to whom, did the Gaunts 
even have a superior claim of relation to Salazar Slytherin-down 
through all those centuries-- than Harry has to any extant 
Bulstrodes, etc.? 

Or, as hundreds of years of political history teaches us, is 
secretly redefining the words you use a spiffing way to say that 
which is patently untrue, and yet expect to be called honest? 

Ah, Guilty!Dumbledore.

Talisman, saying: Thanks, Kneasy.  For making sure everyone got, not 
only the head's up about the tree, but a legible copy to review.

P.S. From HBP:

"Well, I have decided  that it is time, now that you know what 
prompted Lord Voldemort to try and kill you fifteen years ago, for 
you to be given certain information."

There was a pause.

"You said, at the end of last term, you were going to tell me 
everything," said Harry. ...
.
.."I told you everything *I know."* 

[Holy Mother of Epistemology and Undisclosed Qualifications!]

"From this point forth, we shall be leaving the firm foundation of 
fact [Is that what he calls the OoP doubletalk?] and journeying 
together through ...memory... [and] guesswork."

"But you think you're right?"

"Naturally I do..." (197).
 
[Fast-forward into the *journey*]

"Four years ago, I received what I considered *certain proof* that 
Voldemort had split his soul." [Excuse me.  Then doesn't that count 
under the *what I know* column?]... "You handed it to me, Harry," 
said Dumbledore.  "The diary..." (500)

Guilty, Guilty!Dumbledore, obviously lies like a rug.