From jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 1 02:06:35 2007 From: jferer at jferer.yahoo.invalid (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:06:35 -0000 Subject: The Political HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kneasy: "For example, I've seen it suggested that since education at Hogwarts consists mostly of mastering what is essentially a deadly weapon, then Jo is all in favour of an armed society. Laughed me socks off at that one. Just can't imagine it. The plot requires the capability of individuals to fight, agress, defend, even kill, but I'd be stunned if this in any way reflected her RW view of how society should be." Agreed. This is an armed society where the arms can't be taken away; the ability to do harm is inherent. I don't think it says anything about JKR's beliefs about armed societies. You could argue it says something about her attitudes about self-reliance, and I think she does believe in self-reliance, but not because of this. You brought up a lot of examples having to do with criminal law. Here in the U.S., some of these issues have been settled one way or the other for years; for instance, there aren't guaranteed jury trials for many misdemeanors, but the right to avoid self-incrimination without judicial notice is hard-wired into the system. But it's best for this discussion not to get bogged down into details. We can find common ground more easily that way. I think it's clear that JKR distrusts large bureaucracies and big government; she distrusts bureaucrats and apparatchiks; she tends to believe that politicians and said bureaucrats are primarily about preserving their jobs and positions and keeping the lid on, like Fudge or Umbridge, and that the apparat will act to preserve itself. Personally, I think these tendencies transcend politics and apply to any group, from cliquish gardening clubs to transnational groups, Microsoft, or large churches. I also think it's really clear JKR has no trouble with rough justice and comeuppance, privately delivered. Draco and his ilk get theirs over and over all through the series. Justice is seldom issued out by the institution. Harry and his friends take care of things themselves, not through official channels. This added up to a libertarian bent to me. I wont' try to argue that JKR is a Libertarian?, but she has at least some ideas in common. Jim Ferer From erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 1 14:26:14 2007 From: erisedstraeh2002 at erisedstraeh2002.yahoo.invalid (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:26:14 -0000 Subject: What do you believe? Message-ID: I am quite annoyed by the fact that Rowling is now giving contradictory answers to the question of what the characters' career paths are when they grow up. On Sunday's NBC Dateline interview, she said Ron and Harry both become Aurors while on Monday's online Bloomsbury chat, she said that Ron joins George in running the joke shop. As a result, I have decided to believe what I want about what the characters do in later life. Since Harry will have had his fill of dark wizard catching, he will play Quidditch for England until he gets too old, at which point he will become the DADA teacher at Hogwarts. Hermione will become a healer at St. Mungo's, and will develop a cure for Lockhart's memory loss, although when she implements the cure, she will ensure that Lockhart no longer claims other people's achievements for his own, and spends the rest of his life developing his own range of hair care potions. I do like the thought of Ron joining Weasley's Wizard Wheezes, as I can't see any of them joining the Ministry, and this seems a fitting career for such a funny man. Looking forward to hearing what you believe, Phyllis From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 1 15:54:22 2007 From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:54:22 -0000 Subject: What do you believe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Phyllis wrote: > > I am quite annoyed by the fact that Rowling is now giving > contradictory answers to the question of what the characters' career > paths are when they grow up. On Sunday's NBC Dateline interview, > she said Ron and Harry both become Aurors while on Monday's online > Bloomsbury chat, she said that Ron joins George in running the joke > shop. Those are not necessarily contradictory. If you remember, Ron was cross with his brothers for allowing Draco to get hold of Peruvian Darkness Powder at the end of HPB. As an auror, he goes undercover to work in George's shop, eventually whipping off his disguise ("I'm not really your brother Ron Weasley, I'm Ron Weasley, Auror!") and arresting him when he has enough evidence. David, thinking there must be an exciting non-compliant cauldron smuggling adventure to be written, too From dumbledad at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 1 16:49:50 2007 From: dumbledad at dumbledad.yahoo.invalid (Tim Regan) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 17:49:50 +0100 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: What do you believe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007101c7d45b$fb721a60$f2564f20$@...> Hi All, Phyllis wrote: >>> I am quite annoyed by the fact that Rowling is now giving contradictory answers to the question of what the characters' career paths are when they grow up. On Sunday's NBC Dateline interview, she said Ron and Harry both become Aurors while on Monday's online Bloomsbury chat, she said that Ron joins George in running the joke shop. <<< Dave replied: >>> Those are not necessarily contradictory. If you remember, Ron was cross with his brothers for allowing Draco to get hold of Peruvian Darkness Powder at the end of HPB. As an auror, he goes undercover to work in George's shop, eventually whipping off his disguise ("I'm not really your brother Ron Weasley, I'm Ron Weasley, Auror!") and arresting him when he has enough evidence. <<< More prosaically, I took from the two discussions that Ron started working in the shop (his family's poverty was an issue for him after all) but that when he had earned enough money he left to become an auror. But looking at the chats again that is not what she says. Ho hum. Cheers, Dumbledad. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 1 19:54:48 2007 From: exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid (Amanda) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:54:48 -0000 Subject: What do you believe? In-Reply-To: <007101c7d45b$fb721a60$f2564f20$@...> Message-ID: > More prosaically, I took from the two discussions that Ron started > working in the shop (his family's poverty was an issue for him after > all) but that when he had earned enough money he left to become an > auror. But looking at the chats again that is not what she says. Ho > hum. > Cheers, > Dumbledad. Whereas I thought he'd become an Auror first, joining up with his best mate, chasing down the few remaining Dark Wizards with enough power to pose a threat to the New WW but when the job matured with age, into the responsible yet dull behind-a-desk 9-5 he 'retired' from the service and went to work with George. That fits in with Ron's personality to me. ;-) Amanda (exslytherin) From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 2 02:39:24 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 02:39:24 -0000 Subject: What do you believe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > Phyllis: > I am quite annoyed by the fact that Rowling is now giving > contradictory answers to the question of what the characters' career > paths are when they grow up. On Sunday's NBC Dateline interview, > she said Ron and Harry both become Aurors while on Monday's online > Bloomsbury chat, she said that Ron joins George in running the joke > shop. > Pippin: Isn't it normal for people to have more than one career nowadays? I believe Jo has been a teacher, a stay-home mom, a worker for Amnesty International, and some kind of clerk with an outfit that sold surveillance equipment. Oh, and world famous writer IIRC, WWW was selling things like invisibility charms in large lots to the ministry, so I can see where Ron had a revolving door job and went from Ministry Auror to private sector consultant more than once. Pippin ::waves to Phyllis::Anybody else at Prophecy?? From Oryomai at talia_dawn_3.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 2 13:06:04 2007 From: Oryomai at talia_dawn_3.yahoo.invalid (Oryomai at talia_dawn_3.yahoo.invalid) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:06:04 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] What do you believe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C9A31D04255E27-C78-3190@...> Phyllis: I am quite annoyed by the fact that Rowling is now giving contradictory answers to the question of what the characters' career paths are when they grow up. On Sunday's NBC Dateline interview, she said Ron and Harry both become Aurors while on Monday's online Bloomsbury chat, she said that Ron joins George in running the joke shop. Oryomai: I completely agree with you!? She's been writing this series for how long and she can't keep her ending straight (yeah, yeah I know.."don't flame the author!" ...whatever...when she gets her ending straight, I'll listen to her).? And if Ron had more than one career (as other listees have suggested), why didn't she mention both of his careers both times?? Because she totally forgot. Harry -- Harry played Quidditch for England for a while, before becoming co-captain with his good friend Viktor Krum. Ron -- Ron learned to control his Inner Eye, and now works in the Department of Mysteries.. Hermione -- Hermione works in Magical Law to undo all the damage that Umbridge did.? She married Ron, but they divorced after they realized they only had a spark when fighting evil. Severus -- SNAPE LIVES!? He did not die in the Shrieking Shack, but disappeared to America (because who would look for him there?). George -- G continued to work at WWW, but eventually went mad because he kept talking to his dead twin. Ginny -- Married Harry, played for the Harpies, but DID NOT QUIT once she had children.? (I'm a bit shocked at JKR for that? bit...) Arthur Weasley -- Arthur became Minister of Magic, but did not stay there long.? He decided that he would rather be in the department of Muggle Artifacts, because that is what he truly loves. McGonagall -- Minerva finally admits that she was married to Tom Riddle long ago and that they went their separate ways once he decided to be evil.? This is why his award for the school is still there. Neville and Luna -- They get married, and the two of them travel around the world documenting strange plants and animals.? Their normal mode of transport is Thestrals! I do not believe that the epilogue is canon...I know it's in the book, and I know I'm by myself on this, but it was clearly written long before her writing skills improved.? She shouldn't have put that one in.? It seems randomly thrown in and has nothing to do with the story. Oryomai . ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 2 20:03:14 2007 From: exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid (Amanda) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:03:14 -0000 Subject: What do you believe? In-Reply-To: <8C9A31D04255E27-C78-3190@...> Message-ID: > Oryomai: > > Ginny -- Married Harry, played for the Harpies, but DID NOT QUIT once she had children.? (I'm a bit shocked at JKR for that? bit...) Did Jo say that? I can't exactly remember and don't have it to quote but I don't remember JKR saying Ginny quit because she had kids. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought JKR just said Ginny quit pro-Quidditch and became sports writer for the Prophet. Which makes sense as Ginny is 35 in the Epilogue and that is positively old age in pro-sport. Although,having said that, witches and wizards age slower that than muggles do which doesn't really help to support my idea. Humm Unless Jo had another of her bad math moments. Amanda From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 3 09:27:31 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:27:31 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments Message-ID: Hi. Here's my summary of events at the end of DH, I *think* this is what happened but am still uncertain! Harry found out that he was a HRX from Snape and therefore decides he has to die. He trundles off into the forest for his great sacrificial moment only to find himself at King's Cross with Voldy in tow. There DD informs him that due to the blood that Voldy took from Harry he can return for the finale. In the forest Voldy has also been AK'd, not because of Harry's sacrifice but because of the shared blood thingy. Voldy can't die because he still has one Nagini shaped HRX left and doesn't turn into Vapour!Mort because his current mortal form is linked to Harry by blood. Voldy doesn't return from King's Cross until Harry does so we can deduce that if Harry had 'gone on' then Voldy would be vapour once more. On his return Harry and all of his comrades are immune to Voldy's magic because of Harry's sacrifice, thus Harry does not feel the Cruciatius curse and Neville isn't immolated by the sorting hat. In the last standoff Harry et al cannot be killed by Voldy (sacrificial shield again) but Voldy can be killed by them because the blood thing is a one way deal. However, Harry is not prepared to AK Voldy but does believe that the Elder wand isn't working properly for Voldy, therefore, as long as he can deflect Voldy's AK, by any means at all, Voldy will kill himself. The spell Harry casts is immaterial as it acts only to punt the AK back at Voldy. Regards Jo From sherriola at sherriola.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 3 13:30:19 2007 From: sherriola at sherriola.yahoo.invalid (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 06:30:19 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46b32def.13578c0a.7ff9.4105@...> Jo wrote: Hi. Here's my summary of events at the end of DH, I *think* this is what happened but am still uncertain! Harry found out that he was a HRX from Snape and therefore decides he has to die. He trundles off into the forest for his great sacrificial moment only to find himself at King's Cross with Voldy in tow. There DD informs him that due to the blood that Voldy took from Harry he can return for the finale. In the forest Voldy has also been AK'd, not because of Harry's sacrifice but because of the shared blood thingy. Voldy can't die because he still has one Nagini shaped HRX left and doesn't turn into Vapour!Mort because his current mortal form is linked to Harry by blood. Voldy doesn't return from King's Cross until Harry does so we can deduce that if Harry had 'gone on' then Voldy would be vapour once more. On his return Harry and all of his comrades are immune to Voldy's magic because of Harry's sacrifice, thus Harry does not feel the Cruciatius curse and Neville isn't immolated by the sorting hat. In the last standoff Harry et al cannot be killed by Voldy (sacrificial shield again) but Voldy can be killed by them because the blood thing is a one way deal. However, Harry is not prepared to AK Voldy but does believe that the Elder wand isn't working properly for Voldy, therefore, as long as he can deflect Voldy's AK, by any means at all, Voldy will kill himself. The spell Harry casts is immaterial as it acts only to punt the AK back at Voldy. Sherry now: Frankly, I'm still confused about the ending, and I've read it twice. I've read it in audio, so maybe I'm missing something, and I'm going to try reading the scene again in braille this weekend. But, if Draco had Dumbledore's wand, how could Voldemort have gotten it from Dumbledore's tomb? And if Draco didn't have it, why didn't he? He did disarm DD in HBP, right? So, Draco disarmed DD, Harry disarmed Draco, ... then wasn't it Harry who had the elder wand at the end? Or was it? I am hopelessly confused by who really had it and why and how Voldemort was actually killed. Sherry From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 3 16:59:40 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:59:40 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: <46b32def.13578c0a.7ff9.4105@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Sherry Gomes wrote: > > > Sherry now: > > Frankly, I'm still confused about the ending, and I've read it twice. I've > read it in audio, so maybe I'm missing something, and I'm going to try > reading the scene again in braille this weekend. But, if Draco had > Dumbledore's wand, how could Voldemort have gotten it from Dumbledore's > tomb? And if Draco didn't have it, why didn't he? He did disarm DD in HBP, > right? So, Draco disarmed DD, Harry disarmed Draco, ... then wasn't it > Harry who had the elder wand at the end? Or was it? I am hopelessly > confused by who really had it and why and how Voldemort was actually killed. > > Sherry > Hi Sherry I doubt it's because you read it in audio but good luck with the Braille read anyway! I feel that the ending really shouldn't have been so hard to comprehend and it's a weakness born of a fair amount of ad hocery. My take on the wand, and I've promised to stop obsessing about it, is as follows. The Elder wand serves the author in two ways, firstly it allows Harry to reject absolute power as an option when he chooses HRX over Hallows, secondly it allows Voldy to be killed without Harry having to use an AK (explanation below). DD won the wand from Grindelwald, although we never learn how, and thereby gains its allegiance. Draco disarms DD at the top of Hogwart's tower but abandons the wand in his flight. However, the Elder wand has given its allegiance to Draco. How the wand recognises its true owner is never detailed and the only canon we have is that "the wand chooses the wizard". Harry overpowers Draco in Malfoy mansion and removes Draco's `everyday' wand. In doing so the Elder wand changes its allegiance to Harry, presumably because Harry has defeated Draco and disarmed him, as Harry says in his final confrontation with Voldy "So it all comes down to this, doesn't it? Does the wand in your hand know its last master was Disarmed?". Meaning, I take it, disarmed of his everyday wand, the proxy as it were. Previously Voldy has taken the physical Elder wand from DD's tomb, not knowing that Harry has already become its master via a figurative route. When they meet at the end of DH Harry is the master of the Elder wand but Voldy is wielding it. Harry has Draco's everyday wand, significantly the one he took off the Elder wand's former master. Now if all of that wasn't convoluted and woolly enough for you we come to the final twist. The Elder wand's true owner, according to legend, cannot be defeated in a dual (which begs the question how did DD win it from Grindelwald in a dual? which I cannot answer). So when Voldy uses the Elder wand against Harry, and Harry defends himself (which he didn`t the first time in the forest) then Harry *has* to win even though he isn`t actually using the Elder wand himself, in this case his Expelliarmus deflects Voldy's AK back on him. Why (oh why), we ask ourselves, did the whole thing have to be so torturous? I think it comes down to the second authorial requirement from the Elder wand. At the time of the final dual Harry has already defeated Voldy, he's done that by making the ultimate sacrifice in the forest, after which Voldy's spells cannot harm him or his supporters. However, for narrative closure Voldy has to die. JK didn't want to sully her hero by making him an executioner so when they meet Harry tells Voldy (in an ironic reversal of the usual ESE extended explanation and faintly reminiscent of Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey) why he should give it up, which of course Voldy doesn't and promptly offs himself with yet another rebounding AK. An AK which could never have killed Harry due to his newly minted sacrificial shield status. Ok so my explanation is now longer than the actual events in the book and probably even less clear, I'm done! Regards Jo From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 3 19:10:03 2007 From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:10:03 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jo wrote: > > Hi. > > Here's my summary of events at the end of DH, I *think* this is what > happened but am still uncertain! (Summary snipped) I think what I wrote in post no. 4986 is basically the same. David From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 3 19:33:44 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:33:44 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > > Jo wrote: > > > > Hi. > > > > Here's my summary of events at the end of DH, I *think* this is what > > happened but am still uncertain! > > (Summary snipped) > > I think what I wrote in post no. 4986 is basically the same. > > David > Yup, so it is! Either I didn't read it, which seams unlikely or I didn't understand (much more likely) we can't all be sprinters you know! Still got there in the end... Does it work for you? Regards Jo From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 3 23:55:37 2007 From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:55:37 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" > wrote: > > > > Jo wrote: > > > > > > Hi. > > > > > > Here's my summary of events at the end of DH, I *think* this is > what > > > happened but am still uncertain! > > > > (Summary snipped) > > > > I think what I wrote in post no. 4986 is basically the same. > > > > David > > > Yup, so it is! Either I didn't read it, which seams unlikely or I > didn't understand (much more likely) we can't all be sprinters you > know! > > Still got there in the end... > > Does it work for you? > > Regards > Jo Are you back to "put the pellet in the potion in the flagon with the dragon?" AK in the forest, does not kill Harry, rebounds on Voldy, Horcrux in Harry gone. Elder wand does not go to Harry. Ak in great hall, no horcruxes left, HP and LV duel, ak backfires and kills LV, Harry wins elder wand. Questions: Why didn't Harry win the wand in the forest? Did the blood protection really save Voldy from the backfire ak in the forest or was it the 2 remaining horcruxes? On a side note, with all the unanswered questions out there, who was the good Slytherin? Narcissa maybe? fran ....enjoyed all the posts, sorry Kneasy was slammed for just being himself ;o) From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 01:02:37 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:02:37 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Please mark and return wtih comments References: Message-ID: <010d01c7d633$26c74c20$6401a8c0@Main> Fran: > On a side note, with all the unanswered questions out there, who was > the good Slytherin? Narcissa maybe? SSSusan: Yeah, I'm thinking Narcissa [even if her motive wasn't exactly 'pure'], Sluggy... and Snape, of course. ;-) Too bad there was a lack of 'good Slytherins' at the student level, though.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 01:12:12 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 18:12:12 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Please mark and return wtih comments References: Message-ID: <001801c7d634$96112d20$482fdcd1@...> Gatta: I'm guessing Snape. Purrs! Gatta Quantum me cogitis omnes! On a side note, with all the unanswered questions out there, who was the good Slytherin? Narcissa maybe? fran ....enjoyed all the posts, sorry Kneasy was slammed for just being himself ;o) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 01:56:59 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 01:56:59 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: <010d01c7d633$26c74c20$6401a8c0@Main> Message-ID: > SSSusan: > Yeah, I'm thinking Narcissa [even if her motive wasn't exactly 'pure'], > Sluggy... and Snape, of course. ;-) > > Too bad there was a lack of 'good Slytherins' at the student level, > though.... > Pippin: That's the dreadful tragedy of it. There were no Reguluses or Snapes in Generation H because (duh) Regulus and Snape didn't get a chance to produce them. We know of at least four descendants of DE's at Hogwarts: Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Nott, with Dean Thomas a quasi-canonical fifth. But from the anti-Voldemort fighters who were in Moody's photograph there are only two surviving offspring, and that only because of a miracle. Sadly, the Slytherins who stood to honor Harry in GoF were ignored. Harry never responded to their gesture of support. They may have had bravery, but Voldemort had made sure they would be leaderless (apart from Snape, whose advice would surely have been no different than Molly's.) Pippin From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 02:08:56 2007 From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 02:08:56 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: <010d01c7d633$26c74c20$6401a8c0@Main> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "susiequsie23" wrote: > > > Fran: > > On a side note, with all the unanswered questions out there, who was > > the good Slytherin? Narcissa maybe? > > > SSSusan: > Yeah, I'm thinking Narcissa [even if her motive wasn't exactly 'pure'], > Sluggy... and Snape, of course. ;-) > > Too bad there was a lack of 'good Slytherins' at the student level, > though.... > > Siriusly Snapey Susan I would have been very disheartened if Sluggy would have abandoned ship! Fighting in his green silk pj's, probabaly his best pair The lack of Slytherins in the fight was rather sad. I really thought some may join so we see a bit of house unity at last. Snape, Snape, Snape. Still not happy with him, sorry to say. I do pity him. Can you imagine how tormenting it was all those years seeing the eyes of his true love embodied in James physical attributes? Still he was eager to sacrifice two people to save her. Not so happy with that. You can say on the plus side he gave Harry his memory, but I think this was more for DD not Harry. Another side note, Hallows versus Horcrux. Another example of choice making us who we are? The whole camping around the country did not bother me so much the second read as I felt an analogy for growing up or just growing as a person. Right turn off the side note: I would really like to know what happened to Lucius after all this. Did he loose any pureblood pride at all? Did he have a Percy moment? Guess with all that gold, he and Cissy lead a guiet life at Mal-aligned Manor. Fran ...liked the book,will always love the series, but feel JKR was ready to be done with it and could have done a better job. > From kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 02:41:00 2007 From: kking0731 at snow15145.yahoo.invalid (snow15145) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 02:41:00 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jo snipped: The Elder wand serves the author in two ways, firstly it allows Harry to reject absolute power as an option when he chooses HRX over Hallows, secondly it allows Voldy to be killed without Harry having to use an AK (explanation below). DD won the wand from Grindelwald, although we never learn how, and thereby gains its allegiance. Draco disarms DD at the top of Hogwart's tower but abandons the wand in his flight. However, the Elder wand has given its allegiance to Draco. How the wand recognises its true owner is never detailed and the only canon we have is that "the wand chooses the wizard". Snow: I agree with you Jo, that the wand chooses the wizard and recognizes who the true owner of the unbeatable elder wand is, whether or not he physically possesses the actual wand or not. As for the reasoning of how Harry was able to vanquish the bit of Voldemort in him without harm to himself, I envision that Harry did possess all three of the Hallows on or about the time that Voldemort attacked him the first time in the forest: Harry had the invisibility cloak but it was no longer on him at the time of the attack; Harry possessed the essence of the elder wand, who acknowledged Harry as the rightful owner, even though Harry did not brandish his wand at the time; And, Harry just recently accessed the stone's ability not even minutes before the AK was administered. Harry had had all three Hallows around him at the time of Voldemort's curse, which I feel may have gave him the invincible powers of the Hallow when he not only challenged death but willingly accepted it. The gravestone of the Potters had a quote: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" pg. 328 am. ed. When Harry willingly accepted death he destroyed his enemy. Harry's enemy was the leach that became part of Harry's subconscious; the one that he remembered; the one he had access into emotions and powers; the enemy that was Voldemort's very soul. Harry willingly accepted death and was therefore protected from it. At Kings Cross, Harry could have decided not to go back to reality and Voldemort would still have been destroyed when Neville slain the remaining Horcrux, which was Nagini. Harry had a choice to return or not but when he did decide to come back, he already knew the battle would be won when the last Horcrux (Nagini) would be killed. Harry actually won the battle in the forest! When Voldemort issued the AK that destroyed the Horcrux portion in Harry, Harry won. Neville was directed to kill Nagini and Harry protected everyone else from the wrath of Voldemort by his selfless sacrifice. Voldemort was merely mortal again but with no power to lay even a finger on anyone who was protected by Harry's sacrifice. Snow From kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 06:02:13 2007 From: kumayama at kumayama.yahoo.invalid (Ashley) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 06:02:13 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > snip > > At Kings Cross, Harry could have decided not to go back to reality > and Voldemort would still have been destroyed when Neville slain the > remaining Horcrux, which was Nagini. Hi Snow. I read this a little differently. Harry did not know, and indeed, I do not believe that Neville's success was assured, or that Voldy would be defeated when the last Hx was destroyed. Though Neville did succeed, it was again due to both to a mistake on Voldemort's part in underestimating Neville's determination, and to Neville's selfless bravery. Neville could have failed for a number or reasons, not the least of which was never standing up to Voldy in the first place. In a way, that scene recalls the moment when Neville first stood up against the trio in PS, and we know the outcome for him at that time. And of course, Voldy did not die when Nagini was killed, he only lost his last Hx. He may have been mortal, but he remained the most magically powerful person in the world. > > Harry had a choice to return or not but when he did decide to come > back, he already knew the battle would be won when the last Horcrux > (Nagini) would be killed. > > Harry actually won the battle in the forest! When Voldemort issued > the AK that destroyed the Horcrux portion in Harry, Harry won. > Neville was directed to kill Nagini and Harry protected everyone else > from the wrath of Voldemort by his selfless sacrifice. Voldemort was > merely mortal again but with no power to lay even a finger on anyone > who was protected by Harry's sacrifice. Lyn again, While Voldy was weakened, he was far from ineffectual. I disagree with an earlier comment by another who asserted Voldy was unable to cast a cruciatus curse on Harry. No, I think he was quite capable in that, as evidenced by Harry's body flopping and jumping into the air each time it was administered. Harry had already shown some resistance to the curse earlier, and most of all, this was a time when he was able to master himself in spite of the curse. I think it underestimates Harry's actual abilities and suffering to assume that the curses were ineffectual. As for Voldy's inability to "lay even a finger on anyone who was protected by Harry's sacrifice," I think this overstates the "reality." Not only did Voldy apply the cruciatus curse to Harry, but he was able to silence, even if only temporarily, the huge gathering of his opponents, many of which were quite powerful wizards in their own right. I'd like to see how many other wizards would have been capable of such a thing for even a short period of time. Furthermore, there were three very powerful and experienced wizards simultaneously dueling with Voldemort and fighting for their own, as well as his life. Keep in mind that his strength and fury at Bella's death was sufficient to blast them all away. Not bad for a guy with a less than optimal wand I think there is a tendency among many, and a strong point of view among a few, to perceive Harry's successes as almost entirely due to external factors, rather than his own abilities. I read things differently, seeing Harry as a more powerful wizard than most others, but with his magical powers developed from his choices and bravery rather than innately bestowed on him or gained from academic commitment and talent. Perhaps I assume incorrectly, but I tend to believe that was a message JKR intended throughout the series, that you may not be born of exceptional wealth (e.g., the Malfoys) or intellect (DD, TR, Hermione), but you can make a powerful mark on the world by your choices and commitment to good. Lyn From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 08:45:44 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 08:45:44 -0000 Subject: OT was: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" wrote: > > ....enjoyed all the posts, sorry Kneasy was slammed for just being > himself ;o) > Not for the first time, and since tailoring personal opinions to suit others isn't on the agenda, it probably won't be the last. Won't be responding to threads specific to HD, though. Others obviously feel differently, but there's no enthusiasm for that one here so there's not much point in joining the discussion. More general themes - that's a different kettle of fish. Kneasy From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 09:39:41 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 09:39:41 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" wrote: > > Are you back to "put the pellet in the potion in the flagon with the > dragon?" Nah the pellet with the poison is in the vessel with the pestle, the flagon with the dragon holds the brew that is true! > > AK in the forest, does not kill Harry, rebounds on Voldy, Horcrux in > Harry gone. Elder wand does not go to Harry. > > Ak in great hall, no horcruxes left, HP and LV duel, ak backfires and > kills LV, Harry wins elder wand. > > Questions: Why didn't Harry win the wand in the forest? Did the blood > protection really save Voldy from the backfire ak in the forest or > was it the 2 remaining horcruxes? I don't think the AK rebounds, Harry says in CH36 "Something had happened when he had hit Harry with the killing curse. Had Voldemort, too, collapsed? It seemed like it. And both of them had fallen briefly unconscious and both of them had now returned " So not a rebounding AK which explains why Voldemort tried it *yet again* in the Great Hall. The blood connection means that Harry is still alive but temporarily hors de combat, it appears if Harry goes down then Voldy who rebuilt his body using Harry's blood also goes down. Why? I don't know! It does however serve the function of allowing us a glimpse of Voldy's future at King's Cross. Harry already has mastery over the Elder wand, CH36 "I got there first. I overpowered Draco weeks ago." So in the forest it's Harry's wand even though Voldy has his not so hot and sweaty hand on it. The AK sort of works because Harry does not try to defend himself from the Elder wand. Doesn't work in round 2 because Harry does. > > On a side note, with all the unanswered questions out there, who was > the good Slytherin? Narcissa maybe? > Narcissa, Draco, Snape, Slughorn are all good Slytherins. I've been rethinking the house thing in light of the non redemption of the whole house in the series. More later > fran > ....enjoyed all the posts, sorry Kneasy was slammed for just being > himself ;o) > Oh Kneasy can take care of himself methinks! Can't think why the Geist went off the deep end, doesn't seem in character? Regards Jo From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 12:11:15 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:11:15 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Please mark and return wtih comments References: Message-ID: <01eb01c7d690$8e967c10$6401a8c0@Main> Lyn: > I think there is a tendency among many, and a strong point of view > among a few, to perceive Harry's successes as almost entirely due to > external factors, rather than his own abilities. I read things > differently, seeing Harry as a more powerful wizard than most others, > but with his magical powers developed from his choices and bravery > rather than innately bestowed on him or gained from academic > commitment and talent. Perhaps I assume incorrectly, but I tend to > believe that was a message JKR intended throughout the series, that > you may not be born of exceptional wealth (e.g., the Malfoys) or > intellect (DD, TR, Hermione), but you can make a powerful mark on the > world by your choices and commitment to good. Hallelujiah!! I'm not the only one! I've always been one to use the phrase 'There's Something About Harry' (to some folks' derision, I know), and, Lyn, you've captured the essence of what I meant but so rarely could put into words myself. That is, it's not necessarily inherent power or skill... *nor* that he 'inherited' all that strength and power from Voldemort on the night of GH... it's how these skills and powers developed through his choices & bravery. Thanks, Lyn, for saying it so well. A few days ago, I was either watching or reading a transcript of one of the recent JKR interviews, and I believe she used a phrase something like 'a decent enough wizard' to describe the Harry who presented himself at school at age 11. Darn that I can't recall the precise language, but I do remember having the reaction that she distinctly wanted to say that Harry never was one of the supremely innately talented wizards like DD or Riddle. ::takes off D'oH badge, gives it a huff and a polish:: Siriusly Snapey Susan From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 12:17:43 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 12:17:43 -0000 Subject: Whither be Slytherins Message-ID: Like many I was surprised and disappointed when *no* junior Slytherins stayed for the fight, how much would it have hurt to have one lone voice, perhaps even an underage one that could be dispatched to safety. I think the difference between Gryffindor and Slytherin is not good/evil, brave/cowardly but faith/reason. Gryffindor represents making the choice of *right* over rational starting with Lily's sacrifice. Lily's choice is unreasonable in that she does not know it will save Harry. She acts on a Mother's instinct that whilst there is one thing left to do in defence of your child, no matter how futile, you do it. The rational thing, one could argue, would have been to step aside and live to fight evil (and the causes of evil) another day. Revenge for her husband and son and protection for all those other children still in danger. To go on fighting so that Harry's death might not be in vain etc. DH is riddled with references to not knowing the consequences of our actions or indeed the motivation for our actions. Now the cynical amongst us (you know who you are) may say that this is feeble attempt by JK to proffer a fig leaf to cover the rampant and unsightly nakedness of her woefully inadequate plot. Then again she could be making a significant statement about choices. Some examples of those you-don't- have-a clue references. CH12 "I don't know Harry, I don't know, there are an awful lot of things that could go wrong so much relies on chance." CH15 "We thought you knew what you were doing! .we thought you had a real plan!" "Well, sorry to let you down" said Harry. CH27 "Maybe maybe it's something you need to find out for yourself," said Hermione, with the faint air of clutching at straws. "Yeah" said Ron sycophantically, "that makes sense." "No, it doesn't." snapped Hermione. CH 29 "So what's the plan Harry?" "There isn't one" "Just going to make it up as we go along, are we? My favourite kind." said Fred. CH32 `He did not know why he was doing it, why he was approaching the dying man.' At the end of DH several plot strands (blood, HRX, Hallows, sacrifice) come together in a seemingly random, unexpected and unpredictable way (some may argue, even post hoc, incomprehensible!). JKR's emphasis is not just on choices but on uninformed choices. The failure of Slytherins is to believe it is possible (desirable?) to predict the outcome of our actions, to know through rational thought and calculation how to bring about a given conclusion. Slughorn believes he can identify those who will be most useful to him in the future and rejects everyone else. Narcissa aligns herself with a dominant but malign force, perhaps believing it will be in Draco's interests. Voldy believes he can conquer death. DH is a testament to faith over reason. CH24 `His instinct was telling him one thing, his brain quite another.' CH28 `Harry kept quiet. He did not want to express the doubts and uncertainties about Dumbledore that had riddled him for months now. He had made his choice while he dug Dobby's grave; he had decided to continue along the winding, dangerous path indicated for him by Albus Dumbledore, to accept that he had not been told everything that he wanted to know, but simply to trust.' CH33 "Souls? We were talking of minds!" "In the case of Harry and Lord Voldemort, to speak of one is to speak of the other." "One of us?" jeered Voldemort .."the boy who survived by accident because Dumbledore was pulling the strings?" "Accident was it, when my mother died to save me?" Asked Harry "Accident, when I decided to fight in the graveyard? Accident, that I didn't defend myself tonight, and still survived, and returned to fight." "*Accidents!*" Screamed Lord Voldemort. Voldemort can see nothing but chance where Harry can see that what may appear as accidents might be the result of some unknowable bigger picture. Accepting, embracing death is part of that picture. In JKR's world there can be no good Slytherins until they choose faith over reason, Snape in the end had faith in Dumbledore, Slughorn in Hogwarts, Narcissa and Draco in Harry. Is that sufficient? I don't know. Why did JKR choose not to redeem a single youthful Slytherin, is it like Susan in the Narnia books who opts for lipstick and stockings (IIRC) over childish memories? A warning. A threat. If you're in Slytherin by definition you have no faith, you have to leave Slytherin before you *get* it. Is it just a mess of plottage? Regards Jo From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 15:25:40 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 15:25:40 -0000 Subject: Please mark and return wtih comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Ashley" wrote: > > > Lyn again, > While Voldy was weakened, he was far from ineffectual. I disagree with > an earlier comment by another who asserted Voldy was unable to cast a > cruciatus curse on Harry. er I think that was me. Yes this is one of those (many) messy areas where the evidence is conflicting, the following are all taken from DH, CH36. Voldemort casts a Crucio at Harry and: ` yet the pain he expected did not come.' So Voldy can't hurt Harry, but: `He was thrown once, twice, three times into the air.' Oh, so he can, but when Voldy curses Neville: `In one swift, fluid motion Neville broke free of the Body-Bind Curse upon him;' Right so Neville is safe then! And yet Harry doesn't think so as: `Harry cast a Shield Charm between Neville and Voldemort before the latter could raise his wand.' In fact it appears to be business as usual: `He was searching for Voldemort and saw him across the room, firing spells from his wand as he backed into the Great Hall, still screaming instructions to his followers as he sent curses flying left and right; Harry cast more Shield Charms, and Voldemort's would be victims, ., darted past him' Yup, he's on a roll: `Voldemort was in the centre of the battle, and he was striking and smiting all within reach.' No question then, Voldy is in fine fettle, and firing on all cylinders, as here: `Voldemort was now duelling McGonagall, Slughorn and Kingsley all at once, and there was cold hatred in his face as they wove and ducked around him, unable to finish him -' And here: `He saw McGonagall, Kingsley and Slughorn blasted backwards, flailing and writhing through the air, as Voldemort's fury at the fall of his last, best lieutenant exploded with the force of a bomb. Voldemort raided his wand and directed it at Molly Weasley.' And here. Harry is clearly worried: `"Protego" roared Harry, and the Shield Charm expanded in the middle of the hall' Except in the end he says: "You won't be killing anyone else tonight," said Harry as they circled, and stared into each other's eyes, green into red. "You won't be able to kill any of them, ever again. Don't you get it? I was ready to die to stop you hurting these people - " "But you did not!" " - I meant to, and that's what did it. I've done what my mother did. They're protected from you. Haven't you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can't torture them. You can't touch them." Er, does anyone know what's going on??? > > I think there is a tendency among many, and a strong point of view > among a few, to perceive Harry's successes as almost entirely due to > external factors, rather than his own abilities. I read things > differently, seeing Harry as a more powerful wizard than most others, > but with his magical powers developed from his choices and bravery > rather than innately bestowed on him or gained from academic > commitment and talent. Perhaps I assume incorrectly, but I tend to > believe that was a message JKR intended throughout the series, that > you may not be born of exceptional wealth (e.g., the Malfoys) or > intellect (DD, TR, Hermione), but you can make a powerful mark on the > world by your choices and commitment to good. > > Lyn > As I said in a previous post I believe it is Harry's ability to accept external factors beyond his control combined with a good heart that make him special. To make choices there have to be external factors, Harry's good heart is often overlooked because it is a given and therefore not much discussed. As DD says in HBP, CH23 "Yes, Harry you can love,...Which, given everything that has happened to you, is a great and remakable thing. You are still too young to understand how unusual you are, Harry." Regards Jo From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 18:40:36 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:40:36 -0000 Subject: The Elder Wand / the Elder Wand / Dean Thomas / Snape Message-ID: Jo wrote in : << Draco disarms DD at the top of Hogwart's tower but abandons the wand in his flight. However, the Elder wand has given its allegiance to Draco. How the wand recognises its true owner is never detailed and the only canon we have is that "the wand chooses the wizard". >> I think it was on The Other List (where I am about 1000 posts behind) that someone suggested that, because Draco never touched the Elder Wand after disarming DD, the Elder Wand didn't know from Draco; it only knew the hawthorne wand that had cast the Disarming Spell on it. << Harry overpowers Draco in Malfoy mansion and removes Draco's `everyday' wand. In doing so the Elder wand changes its allegiance to Harry, presumably because Harry has defeated Draco and disarmed him, as Harry says in his final confrontation with Voldy "So it all comes down to this, doesn't it? Does the wand in your hand know its last master was Disarmed?". Meaning, I take it, disarmed of his everyday wand, the proxy as it were. >> So the way the Elder Wand knew that it was opposing its Master is only that it recognized the hawthorne wand. If Harry hadn't been using the hawthorne wand in the last duel, the Elder Wand wouldn't have known to protect him. That Harry was using the hawthorne wand is a great co-incidence, authorial intervention, divine intervention, or fate. If the Elder Wand had never encountered the hawthorne wand, would it never again have recognized a master? In which case, if Harry had instead destroyed the hawthorne wand and used a different wand for the final duel, the danger of the Deathstick would have been removed. Or would the Elder Wand eventually have chosen someone who defeated its *wielder* as its new master? Snow wrote in : << As for the reasoning of how Harry was able to vanquish the bit of Voldemort in him without harm to himself, I envision that Harry did possess all three of the Hallows on or about the time that Voldemort attacked him the first time in the forest: (snip) Harry possessed the essence of the elder wand, who acknowledged Harry as the rightful owner, even though Harry did not brandish his wand at the time; >> If true (and it may very well be true), that destroys the above theory about the hawthorne wand. I would prefer it was the blood protection that saved Harry, but I don't understand the blood protection. For example, what if a Death Eater AK'ed Harry? << At Kings Cross, Harry could have decided not to go back to reality and Voldemort would still have been destroyed when Neville slain the remaining Horcrux, which was Nagini. >> As Ashley replied in the next post: << And of course, Voldy did not die when Nagini was killed, he only lost his last Hx. He may have been mortal, but he remained the most magically powerful person in the world. >> To me, once LV's last Horcrux was gone, it didn't have to be Harry who killed Voldemort. I would have liked if Harry had not been given the choice to return, DD explaining to him that now he is dead but his death did all that great stuff, and then Neville had killed not only Nagini but Voldemort. Or Colin Creevey had killed Voldemort, presumably with the assistance of numerous powerful wizards and witches also attacking LV at the same time, perhaps because somehow it was Colin using the hawthorne wand then. Pippin wrote in : << We know of at least four descendants of DE's at Hogwarts: Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Nott, with Dean Thomas a quasi-canonical fifth. >> Is there new canon on Dean Thomas's missing late father? My impression from the Extra that's been on her website so long was that Dean's father, who didn't tell his Muggle wife he was a wizard on purpose to 'protect' her, disappeared because he was killed by DEs (for marrying a lowly Muggle or for fighting against LV), not because he was a DE. << There were no Reguluses or Snapes in Generation H because (duh) Regulus and Snape didn't get a chance to produce them. >> Even in the Potterverse, I hate to think that a person has to always make the same choices as his/her parents. Anyway, Snape had years of Voldie-free Hogwarts professorship in which to procreate, but his obsession with Lily prevented him from doing so. If he had got over that obsession and fell in love with and/or married someone else, would that have caused him to drop his loyalty to DD's plan? He might, I suppose, have lost interest in protecting HP's life for Lily's sake but continued to oppose LV because of viewing LV as a threat to his own children. Could he have returned to LV's side, with pureblood wife and sprog, believing they would be safer there? Perhaps your argument is that Snape's feelings about Lily would not have turned into obsession if LV hadn't killed her? But if his feelings about Lily had not turned into obsession, would he have changed sides? << They may have had bravery, but Voldemort had made sure they would be leaderless (apart from Snape, whose advice would surely have been no different than Molly's.) >> Snape's advice to his Slytherins -- that's an interesting question. He certainly seemed to want to protect all their lives, which might well lead him to advise "Sit out this battle, then join the winning side" (as you hinted). Certainly there is no sign of him having used them to help his mission of protecting HP's life and getting revenge on LV. I'd like to think that was because he didn't want to endanger them, not because he had no use for them nor because he did use them, but off-page. But suppose he faced a conflict between his two goals, 1) hid mission, 2) protecting the Slythie kids? "My dad says I have to come along and help kill some Muggle-lovers. What should I do, Professor?" From technomad at ericoppen.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 4 18:32:46 2007 From: technomad at ericoppen.yahoo.invalid (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:32:46 -0500 Subject: FILK: Tenting Tonight Message-ID: <005201c7d6c5$db225470$37570043@D6L2G391> I don't think anybody has ever filked this song before... ---------- Tenting Tonight, a Deathly Hallows filk by Eric Oppen ttto Tenting Tonight/Tenting On The Old Camp Ground Harry, Ron and Hermione: We are tenting tonight in the woods of Dean, Hiding in mortal fear, >From You-Know-Who, and Death Eaters Who'd love to find us here. Many are the wizards out searching tonight Serving You-Know-Who Many are the others, fighting for the right, Who know our cause is true! Tenting tonight, tenting tonight, Tenting in the woods of Dean! Hermione: For the Death Eaters carried out a coup They took the Ministry The Wizard World's run by You-Know-Who And no one now is free! Many are the witches that tried to make a stand Who're now in a cell! Many are the wizards freed from Azkaban Who all should be in hell! Tenting tonight, tenting tonight, Tenting in the woods of Dean! Ron: We have no more food, our fires are low And our morale is frayed, The Death Eaters are in the know And we are all afraid! Many are the wizards out fleeing in the night Fleeing for their lives! Many are the wizards who tried to make a fight To save their kin and wives! Tenting tonight, tenting tonight, Tenting in the woods of Dean. Harry: All the Muggleborns now are on the run The Purebloods now have their way The Death Eaters are having fun And Voldemort holds sway! Ron and Hermione: Many are the reasons for not saying the name Because it's been Tabooed! Many are the reasons, you've just lost the game And now we all are screwed! Captured tonight, captured tonight, Captured in the woods of Dean! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid Sun Aug 5 22:13:32 2007 From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:13:32 -0000 Subject: Belated DH predictions Message-ID: Amusing article here: http://www.cracked.com/index.php?name=News&sid=2235&pageid=1 Pity I didn't see it when it came out. David From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Mon Aug 6 12:15:24 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:15:24 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry Message-ID: I never really *got* Harry. Oh I know what he's supposed to be but I never actually connected with him. As the books progressed I sensed (imagined?) that JK was increasingly, even desperately, trying to make me believe in him. Often I found his behaviour inexplicable and his motivations confused. When we first meet Harry in PS he is, in DD words, "modest, likeable and reasonably talented .an engaging child". Is this believable? I have met people who have survived the most unpleasant childhood experiences to become grounded, sociable and loving individuals but never without a great deal of effort and personal insight gained through an explicit desire not be what they appear destined to become. They have turned to books, films or real life role models to find the inspiration to recreate themselves. In PS we see nothing of this, Harry has no friends, no adult mentor, no vivid internal life (as far as we are shown). Harry's abuse at the hands of the Dursleys is not presented for pathos but comedy. I have no problem with this, PS is not meant to be social realism it's an adventure story. Nor is it a tale of personal growth, Harry doesn't embark upon his journey to the magical world where he finds his better self, he arrives at Hogwarts fully functional, complete (as it transpires a little more than complete). It need not have been this way, the childhood classic `The Secret Garden' is a story about a child who relearns how to engage with others following a personal tragedy but PS is not that kind of book. Nor are CoS or PoA they are jolly romps through the wizarding world, all be it with an intriguing backstory. Neither is GoF until that explosive scene in the graveyard. When Cedric dies everything changes - except Harry. The problem stems, in part, from writing the books primarily from Harry's POV. Harry has to `carry' the story. It's his actions that drive the narrative. Hence in OotP instead of spending time contemplating, addressing the impact of events in GoF Harry is forced (by the author) into a rather incongruous trip to the MoM so we can get a preview of the place in preparation for the denouement. In terms of character development for Harry it does nothing. Yes we are told of his frustration with his isolation, inactivity and the dismissal of his testimony but this is nothing new to him or to us. Similarly at the end of OotP Harry is confronted with Sirius's death but this is summarily dismissed in HBP by Harry when he says "But while I was at the Dursley's I realised I can't shut myself away or - or crack up. Sirius wouldn't have wanted that, would he?" Nor would the author because she needs Harry to be telling *the story*. Harry reminds me of d'Artagnan in The Three Musketeers, he is essentially the juvenile male lead. In Dumas' book the darker more complex issues are met be Athos, Porthos and Aramis and rightly so, to burden one character with everything would be asking too much of him. In HP Harry not only has to carry the action but also the main themes of choice and destiny. All too often JK has to choose between the narrative and the meaning and invariably either the narrative wins or we get a conflicting, confused message. Harry is the boy who lived, Harry has his mother's eyes, Harry is the `one' in the prophecy, Harry is DD's successor, Harry is a lost boy like Snape and Voldy, Harry is a HRX, Harry is the inheritor of the Hallows, Harry has to choose between HRX and Hallows, Harry has to sacrifice himself, Harry has to kill Voldy. Harry, Harry, Harry it's all too much. As the HP series progresses JK appears to have increasing difficulty in getting him to juggle the responsibilities she has laid upon him. In OotP instead of exploring the strange connection he has with Voldy he expends his energy hunting the `weapon'. In HBP he is subjected to endless pensieve scenes providing Voldy's backstory. In DH the hallows are sprung on him and he gallops through their significance leaving his companions and the reader bemused. We never know which stick Harry is grasping, let alone which end! (Hum stick/wand there might be something in there!). Harry can use Crucio and Imperius because he's human or the narrative requires it, but he can't use AK because its our choices that define us. He can tell Lupin to return to his wife and child because it's the right thing to do (and necessary for the plot) but accept Lupin and Tonks fighting (to the death) and abandoning Teddy because sacrifice is an important theme. He can accept that the prophecy isn't inevitable whilst repeating it to himself like a mantra. Why, oh why, did she wheel Neville on as an alternative, additional proposition only to wheel him right off again in such indecent haste! Ah the missed opportunities of Snape, Draco and Trevor. If only JK had been willing to share some of the glory around but then Gryffindor always win the house cup don't they? Regards Jo Who has almost stopped obsessing about the wand thing and would like to pass on a joke from TOL Message #174211 Harry is...well he's Indiana Jones! Daring, clever plans, made up on the fly, impossible to injure, always getting away from the bad guy at just the right moment - Harry is a cinema hero. And I have to say, when Harry finished exploring Snape's memories in the pensieve? And he's laying on the floor? I had this instant image of Harry saying "Death...why'd it have to be death?" va32h Which is a much shorter, and funnier, version of what I'm trying to say! From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Mon Aug 6 15:36:30 2007 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:36:30 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > > > I never really *got* Harry. Oh I know what he's supposed to be but I > never actually connected with him. As the books progressed I sensed > (imagined?) that JK was increasingly, even desperately, trying to > make me believe in him. Often I found his behaviour inexplicable and > his motivations confused. > > When we first meet Harry in PS he is, in DD words, "modest, > likeable and reasonably talented .an engaging child". Is this > believable? > Harry's abuse at > the hands of the Dursleys is not presented for pathos but comedy. I > have no problem with this, PS is not meant to be social realism it's > an adventure story. Anne: I liked him very much through GoF. I guess it's just a personal thing, like whether or not you like someone in real life. Unlike many other readers apparently, I didn't see the Dursleys as being all-out abusive so much as oppressive. I suppose the reason for that is *because* Harry didn't seem to be all that much damaged by them, and also because I could see he had certain defenses (the horrible jumper/sweater shrinking; his hair growing back). Right now, I am reading a memoir, set in the 1990s, called _Reading Lolita in Tehran_. The lives of the women in it seem every bit as oppressed as Harry's; particularly the ones with male family members in agreement with the regime. Though I'm well aware that I have no full understanding of what that does to them, I do see that they are not complete emotional wrecks, that they are defiant where they can be -- and Harry is similar, in a very general way. The real believable and fitting consequence Harry seemed to carry from his upbringing, in my view, was his emotional distance from people. He really did have some empathy (except for his "enemies"), but never knew what to do with it -- so, sometimes he *appeared* cold. Other times, he really *was* cold (like the time in PoA when he ditched Neville to go to Hogsmeade). Jo: > Nor is it a tale of personal growth, Harry > doesn't embark upon his journey to the magical world where he finds > his better self, he arrives at Hogwarts fully functional, complete > (as it transpires a little more than complete). It need not have > been this way, the childhood classic `The Secret Garden' is a story > about a child who relearns how to engage with others following a > personal tragedy but PS is not that kind of book. Nor are CoS or PoA > they are jolly romps through the wizarding world, all be it with an > intriguing backstory. Neither is GoF until that explosive scene in > the graveyard. When Cedric dies everything changes - except Harry. Anne: Here, I agree with your disappointment entirely. The Harry who went into the Forest to be killed by LV in DH is the same Harry who went through the trapdoor in PS/SS -- except now he's meaner. After GoF and OoP, I expected Harry's victory over Voldemort to be made possible by the fact that Harry had a circle of friends cemented by love and loyalty whereas LV had a circle of minions cemented by fear (except for that crazy Bellatrix). We did get some of that in the end, to be sure -- Neville came through in spades -- but it fell so flat! First of all, it was all one-way -- from them to him. *He* never thinks of them unless their distress happens right before his eyes. And also, as you point out, he's too busy: Jo: > The problem stems, in part, from writing the books primarily from > Harry's POV. Harry has to `carry' the story. It's his actions that > drive the narrative. Hence in OotP instead of spending time > contemplating, addressing the impact of events in GoF Harry is > forced (by the author) into a rather incongruous trip to the MoM so > we can get a preview of the place in preparation for the denouement. > In terms of character development for Harry it does nothing. Yes we > are told of his frustration with his isolation, inactivity and the > dismissal of his testimony but this is nothing new to him or to us Anne: Yep. But I don't think it's a POV problem, I think it's a problem with the story itself. It seems Rowling had time for all this action because in her view, her Harry was just perfect enough but not too perfect (she stuck in those flaws to "humanize" him). Returning to the character development I had been expecting, I looked for Harry to learn to appreciate the strengths of Luna, Neville, and Ginny; to lose his jaundiced view of Slytherin (the "House unity" thing, right?); and to have to overcome the hatred for Snape he'd been feeding all those years, because he'd need to trust him. The only crumbs we got were Harry entrusting Neville with the Kill Nagini mission -- out of *pure necessity* only, and the posthumous, matter- of-fact Pensieve history of Snape. They negate my hopes, because neither one of these required a change in Harry himself. In a less sappy vein (though a little along the same lines), after reading HBP and talking to Talisman, I looked for a more exciting and deeper change in Harry when he would encounter and then embrace his shadow self. The soul-bit in Harry would be the concretised form around which this metamorphosis would revolve... But no. All the lovely possibilities, really and truly present in the text of the first six books (and beyond what I've written here), simply evaporated. Instead, what did we get? Tom Riddle was born bad and would always be bad, and Harry Potter was born good and would always be good. Blah. Well. Fortunately, the HP experiences I treasure have nothing to do with DH. I can be content with that. Anne From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Tue Aug 7 19:02:41 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 19:02:41 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" wrote: > > Anne: > I liked him very much through GoF. I guess it's just a personal > thing, like whether or not you like someone in real life. It wasn't that I didn't like him, rather he failed to `come alive' for me. I completely understood why children preferred Ron. A major flaw in Harry's characterisation is that we seldom get to laugh at him. > > Unlike many other readers apparently, I didn't see the Dursleys as > being all-out abusive so much as oppressive. I suppose the reason > for that is *because* Harry didn't seem to be all that much damaged > by them, and also because I could see he had certain defenses (the > horrible jumper/sweater shrinking; his hair growing back). For me it was out and out neglect, which is very damaging for children. > snip> > > The real believable and fitting consequence Harry seemed to carry > from his upbringing, in my view, was his emotional distance from > people. He really did have some empathy (except for his "enemies"), > but never knew what to do with it -- so, sometimes he *appeared* > cold. Other times, he really *was* cold (like the time in PoA when > he ditched Neville to go to Hogsmeade). > For me the oddity was that he was able to make friends at all. He behaves completely appropriately with Ron (and Draco) on his first meeting yet he has no previous friendships on which to base this behaviour. > Anne: > Here, I agree with your disappointment entirely. The Harry who went > into the Forest to be killed by LV in DH is the same Harry who went > through the trapdoor in PS/SS -- except now he's meaner. > > After GoF and OoP, I expected Harry's victory over Voldemort to be > made possible by the fact that Harry had a circle of friends cemented > by love and loyalty whereas LV had a circle of minions cemented by > fear (except for that crazy Bellatrix). > > We did get some of that in the end, to be sure -- Neville came > through in spades -- but it fell so flat! First of all, it was all > one-way -- from them to him. *He* never thinks of them unless their > distress happens right before his eyes. And also, as you point out, > he's too busy: > Yes, his friends had loads of potential and it doesn't really matter which 'alternate' route JK could of taken, your's is as good as any , the point for me is that instead of expanding her characters to meet the world expansion she restricted *everything* to Harry. > > Anne: > Yep. But I don't think it's a POV problem, I think it's a problem > with the story itself. It seems Rowling had time for all this action > because in her view, her Harry was just perfect enough but not too > perfect (she stuck in those flaws to "humanize" him). And reading posts on TOL those `flaws' fail to add depth to his character they simply appear OoC. The POV is only part of the problem, the weakness (failure?) in the series is that not only is Harry's character a growth-lite zone but that the themes, relationships, dynamics (both plot and character) are all dependent on Harry. This limits the time available for his development and occasionally creates discordant, conflicting messages. Take the themes of death, sacrifice and life choice. Who else in the series acts as a protagonist? Not an antogonist, we have those in Voldy, Snape, DD, the marauders to a degree. But who else acts as a pimary advocate of or proponent for one of these, other than Harry? I guess my general point was that not only is Harry running around doing plot things but he's also carrying the bulk of the other stuff too. I feel this is an error by the author and wonder why she was so unable to share out the goodies. Which is very much the point you made I don't have an answer but just think it's an interesting question . > > Well. Fortunately, the HP experiences I treasure have nothing to do > with DH. I can be content with that. > > Anne > I have to admit to rather enjoying DH, train wreck though it is! Apologies if snipping is incorrect, I got confused and have a headache but wanted to reply anyway.... Regards Jo From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Tue Aug 7 23:19:39 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 23:19:39 -0000 Subject: The Elder Wand / the Elder Wand / Dean Thomas / Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Pippin wrote in > : > > << We know of at least four descendants of DE's at Hogwarts: Malfoy, > Crabbe, Goyle and Nott, with Dean Thomas a quasi-canonical fifth. >> Catlady: > Is there new canon on Dean Thomas's missing late father? Pippin: I think I got confused between Dean Thomas story having Death Eaters in it somewhere and JKR saying there were Death Eater kids in the other Houses. Sorry about that. > << There were no Reguluses or Snapes in Generation H because (duh) > Regulus and Snape didn't get a chance to produce them. >> Catlady: > Even in the Potterverse, I hate to think that a person has to always > make the same choices as his/her parents. Pippin: I was thinking of leadership abilities, not choices. To declare for Harry, a Slytherin would have to be persuaded not only to fight but to fight in a very non-Slytherin way. The Slytherin way is concealing one's purpose, waiting for the right moment and striking from the shadows-- this is of course precisely the strategy which Dumbledore led Harry to adopt in DH. As Harry discovered, it takes as much nerve to fight in this fashion as it does to rush the enemy head on. Can we really assume that the Slytherins who left were all cowards or opportunists? But just as it took a skilled leader to persuade Harry to fight in Slytherin fashion, it would take a skilled leader to persuade a Slytherin to *openly* take a side that wasn't winning -- to fight Gryffindor style, as it were. Harry showed that skill with Slughorn (in HBP) , and Slughorn came back to fight for him. But as far as the other Slytherins, I think that Harry dropped the ball -- if he'd followed Dumbledore's lead and told the Slytherins that they didn't have to go, that they'd always be welcome in the hall, then some of them might have stayed to fight with him, and the cause of House unity would have been furthered. But within Slytherin itself, there weren't any such gifted leaders, IMO, because Regulus and Snape didn't get a chance to pass on their abilities. Pippin From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 8 01:37:22 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 18:37:22 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry References: Message-ID: <00a601c7d95c$c8e64020$482fdcd1@...> Jo wrote: I never really *got* Harry. Oh I know what he's supposed to be but I never actually connected with him. As the books progressed I sensed(imagined?)that JK was increasingly, even desperately, trying to make me believe in him. Often I found his behaviour inexplicable and his motivations confused. Gatta now: I think the trouble with Harry is that he's a Hero (as Jo noted, it's an adventure story, and that applies just as much to the Septology as a whole as it does to the PS/SS). Gatta's irreverent and serendipitous mind is reminded of Anna Russell's assessment of Siegfried (another Hero): "He's very young, very handsome, very strong, very brave,... very stupid...." Purrs! Gatta Quantum me cogitis omnes! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 8 10:21:08 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:21:08 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <00a601c7d95c$c8e64020$482fdcd1@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kat Macfarlane" wrote: > > I think the trouble with Harry is that he's a Hero (as Jo noted, it's an adventure story, and that applies just as much to the Septology as a whole as it does to the PS/SS). > > Gatta's irreverent and serendipitous mind is reminded of Anna Russell's assessment of Siegfried (another Hero): "He's very young, very handsome, very strong, very brave,... very stupid...." > Over the years there have been a number of discussions on the boards that attempted to define just what made a hero, and it's true that the word 'intelligence' was never near the top of the list - for the fictional variety, anyway. To be fair, heroes in the fantasy world don't really need to be all that bright, as there's usually a smart-arse know-it-all in the background who has already sussed out most of the major plot tokens and is now busy egging them on to do the hard bits: "This is your destiny! Only you can save the world! Here's a magic sword/ring/cloak and a bumbling though well- meaning half-wit for character comparison and to justify expostion. Plus a couple of other staunch companions and at least one who might be a bit dodgy. Now get out there and suffer untold trials, tribulations and misery for the triumph of truth/justice/freedom and the right of bucolic peasants (in HP - Muggles) to swill their beer in peace and ignorance. And we'll have a one hell of a party when you get back. Or even if you don't. But we will be sad. Promise." Genuine question. Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? It was a long time before HP that I was into this stuff and IIRC the most desirable qualifications for a fantasy hero were perseverance, stoicism verging on insensitivity, all seasoned with a modicum of 'native wit'. Maybe things have progressed since then. Kneasy From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 8 11:11:16 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 11:11:16 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" wrote: > Genuine question. > Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character > is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, > the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? > > It was a long time before HP that I was into this stuff and IIRC the > most desirable qualifications for a fantasy hero were perseverance, > stoicism verging on insensitivity, all seasoned with a modicum of > 'native wit'. > Maybe things have progressed since then. > > Kneasy > Mostly the brightest tend to fall into the category of anti-hero!! Off the top of my head I'd say Artemis Fowl might qualify, and some of the characters in George RR Martin's Fire and Ice series - Tyrion perhaps. Maybe Joe Abercrombie's torturer (name escapes me) from his First Law series. I wish Voldy had died by falling on his wand and impaling himself, or that Peeves had dropped the sorting hat on his head and it exploded, or Bella had misjudged an AK, or Neville had interrupted Harry's declamation and just offed the b*****d. In all the `unforgivable' discussions there is little (no?) consideration as to why JK was so delicate with AKs, I imagine Ginny was out practicing on those chickens myself. Regards Jo From mikesusangray at mikesusangray.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 8 21:17:15 2007 From: mikesusangray at mikesusangray.yahoo.invalid (Mike & Susan Gray) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 23:17:15 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801c7da01$7f0c3f40$0a00a8c0@hwin> >Genuine question. >Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character >is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, >the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? Ged. Though it takes a while. Baaaaaa! Mike Gray (a.k.a. Aberforth's Goat, who is rather proud of having fashioned a genuine almost-one-liner.) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." http://www.research-projects.unizh.ch/p8199.htm From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 09:09:02 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:09:02 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <001801c7da01$7f0c3f40$0a00a8c0@hwin> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike & Susan Gray" wrote: > > >Genuine question. > >Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character > >is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, > >the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? > > Ged. > > Though it takes a while. > > Baaaaaa! > > Mike Gray (a.k.a. Aberforth's Goat, who is rather proud of having fashioned > a genuine almost-one-liner.) Who he? Kneasy who can demonstrate his ignorance with two words. From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 09:54:09 2007 From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:54:09 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: References: <001801c7da01$7f0c3f40$0a00a8c0@hwin> Message-ID: <56f2b65c0708090254k4b8fd81br9dd73f498c85d531@...> On 8/9/07, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike & Susan Gray" wrote: > > > > >Genuine question. > > >Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character > > >is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, > > >the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? > > > > Ged. > > > > Though it takes a while. > > > > Baaaaaa! > > > > Mike Gray (a.k.a. Aberforth's Goat, who is rather proud of having fashioned > > a genuine almost-one-liner.) > > Who he? > > Kneasy > who can demonstrate his ignorance with two words. The main character from Earthsea series. I add the Wicked Witch of the West from Wicked, and Jenna from Sister Light, Sister Dark. Silmariel From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 11:18:05 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:18:05 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <56f2b65c0708090254k4b8fd81br9dd73f498c85d531@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, silmariel wrote: > > On 8/9/07, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike & Susan Gray" wrote: > > > > > > >Genuine question. > > > >Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character > > > >is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, > > > >the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? > > > > > > Ged. > > > > > > Though it takes a while. > > > > > > Baaaaaa! > > > > > > Mike Gray (a.k.a. Aberforth's Goat, who is rather proud of having fashioned > > > a genuine almost-one-liner.) > > > > Who he? > > > > Kneasy > > who can demonstrate his ignorance with two words. > > The main character from Earthsea series. > Ursula La Guin? Quality writer. Familiar with her SF books (The Left Hand of Darkness is up there on the all-time classics list) but I've never delved into her wizarding stuff. > I add the Wicked Witch of the West from Wicked, and Jenna from Sister > Light, Sister Dark. > Don't know those either. *Sigh* Too many books, not enough time. Kneasy From kakearney at corinthum.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 12:55:50 2007 From: kakearney at corinthum.yahoo.invalid (corinthum) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 12:55:50 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <56f2b65c0708090254k4b8fd81br9dd73f498c85d531@...> Message-ID: Kneasy: > > > >Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character > > > >is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, > > > >the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? of having fashioned Silmariel: > I add the Wicked Witch of the West from Wicked, and Jenna from Sister > Light, Sister Dark. Kelly: Wicked Spoiler alert! Although Elphaba is probably the most intelligent character in Wicked, I would argue that she doesn't fit the hero role, since she doesn't "win" in the end. Wicked is fantasy, but it never struck me as a hero saga. From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 15:20:15 2007 From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 17:20:15 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: References: <56f2b65c0708090254k4b8fd81br9dd73f498c85d531@...> Message-ID: <56f2b65c0708090820w1c6c1a77w9852e05331da12fc@...> I've tried my best not to include spoilers for any of the books, but then, read at your risk. > > The main character from Earthsea series. > > Kneasy: > Ursula La Guin? > Quality writer. > Familiar with her SF books (The Left Hand of Darkness is up there on > the all-time classics list) but I've never delved into her wizarding stuff. One of my favourites. Earthsea, well, I don't want to spoil the series, but has some things quite unusual to find. > > I add the Wicked Witch of the West from Wicked, and Jenna from Sister > > Light, Sister Dark. > > > > Don't know those either. > *Sigh* > Too many books, not enough time. > > Kneasy The first is for adults but the second are children's books, quite particular in the way they are narrated. Each chapter will contain the legend (facts in the book seen as mythos), the history(a scientific trying to make sense of the historical evidence), sometimes a song (music included) and then the chapter. > Kelly: > > Wicked Spoiler alert! > > Although Elphaba is probably the most intelligent character in Wicked, > I would argue that she doesn't fit the hero role, since she doesn't > "win" in the end. Wicked is fantasy, but it never struck me as a hero > saga. Oh, no, she can't win or that would contradict the wizard of oz, this is one of those books where you start knowing the fate of the character - I can't consider that a spoiler, it's in the back cover of the book! But she's brave, outcasted, battles as a leader against the forces of evil and doesn't qualify as an anti hero. On the other hand, Dorothy looks plain stupid but so lucky that it screams that's a Hand of God from the author (not maguire), that made me see Elphaba as very real. She's not a Greek Hero, true, that's Jenna, born from three mothers, etc. I don't even know if it can be done in such an... orwellian book. Genders clash. Silmariel From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 16:04:53 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:04:53 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <001801c7da01$7f0c3f40$0a00a8c0@hwin> Message-ID: Kneasy: > >Genuine question. > >Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character > >is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, > >the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? Mike: > Ged. > > Though it takes a while. Pippin: Ged is not *the* protagonist of 'The Tombs of Atuan' or 'The Farthest Shore' and he's not the sharpest character in 'A Wizard of Earthsea' so I'm not sure he counts. At various times in the saga, he's virtuous, magically gifted, intellectually brilliant and the main character, but never all of them at once. A protagonist who is unquestionably virtuous, magically gifted and intellectually brilliant would not be a hero anyway -- he'd be a god! Or a Gary Stu. Pippin From mikesusangray at mikesusangray.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 19:01:51 2007 From: mikesusangray at mikesusangray.yahoo.invalid (Mike & Susan Gray) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 21:01:51 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001b01c7dab7$bf889c60$0a00a8c0@hwin> Arguing with yourself is almost always a bad sign, but - > Ged. > > Though it takes a while. However, you could argue that Ged is the protagonist only in the first Earthsea story - where he is only in the process of becoming the most powerful mage in Earthsea. In the latter two parts of the trilogy the story is as much about his co-stars as about him. And in my personal favorite, the fourth Earthsea narrative, he not only takes backseat but spends most of the book in a daze. But I think, in general, that you won't very often find many modern narrative with a clear protagonist-antogonist structure in which the protagonist clearly outclasses everyone else. That would tend to detract from suspense and also from the reader's ability to identify with the protagonist. Also, fantasy stories are very often *also* Bildungsromane, in which case the protagonists can hardly start out the story on top of the world, even if they (like Ged) eventually get there. Baaaaaa! Mike Gray (a.k.a. Aberforth's Goat ) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." http://www.research-projects.unizh.ch/p8199.htm From mikesusangray at mikesusangray.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 19:04:44 2007 From: mikesusangray at mikesusangray.yahoo.invalid (Mike & Susan Gray) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 21:04:44 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001c01c7dab8$26044480$0a00a8c0@hwin> Pippin: > Ged is not *the* protagonist of 'The Tombs of Atuan' or 'The Farthest Shore' > and he's not the sharpest character in 'A Wizard of Earthsea' so I'm not sure he > counts. At various times in the saga, he's virtuous, magically gifted, intellectually > brilliant and the main character, but never all of them at once. > > A protagonist who is unquestionably virtuous, magically gifted and > intellectually brilliant would not be a hero anyway -- he'd be a god! Or a > Gary Stu. Bingo. I wrote my post before reading yours! Honest!! Baaaaaa! Mike Gray (a.k.a. Aberforth's Goat ) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." http://www.research-projects.unizh.ch/p8199.htm From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 19:46:45 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:46:45 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <001b01c7dab7$bf889c60$0a00a8c0@hwin> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike & Susan Gray" wrote: > > But I think, in general, that you won't very often find many modern > narrative with a clear protagonist-antogonist structure in which the > protagonist clearly outclasses everyone else. That would tend to detract > from suspense and also from the reader's ability to identify with the > protagonist. Also, fantasy stories are very often *also* Bildungsromane, in > which case the protagonists can hardly start out the story on top of the > world, even if they (like Ged) eventually get there. > There's one that springs to mind. Atypical, though. Might even be thought of as subverting the genre (now where have I heard that phrase before?) or even *gasp* poking fun at the genre. Jason Derry - erstwhile compulsory Hero of Tom Holt's 'Ye Gods!' Mind you, as he's semi-devine he starts with a bit of an advantage. Kneasy From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 9 23:29:22 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:29:22 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry References: <001801c7da01$7f0c3f40$0a00a8c0@hwin> <56f2b65c0708090254k4b8fd81br9dd73f498c85d531@...> Message-ID: <002401c7dadd$32ea6c40$482fdcd1@...> Gatta now: Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea series is definitely worth your time. Like Harry Potter, it's a young person's fantasy, or was until it turned into a classic. Ged is just slow enough on the uptake to be human, and he certainly gets the job done. He's a wizard who lives by his wits. As for the WW/W and Jenna, well, female protagonists have to live by their wits, since they don't have big muscles, a big sword, a thick skull... (Hi, Silmariel! Long time, no see!) Purrs! Gatta Quantum me cogitis omnes! "Mike & Susan Gray" wrote: > > > > >Genuine question. > > >Can anyone think of a story of this genre where *the* main character > > >is the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, a fantasy lead who's, say, > > >the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes in whodunnits? > > > > Ged. > > > > Though it takes a while. > > > > Baaaaaa! > > > > Mike Gray (a.k.a. Aberforth's Goat, who is rather proud of having fashioned > > a genuine almost-one-liner.) > > Who he? > > Kneasy > who can demonstrate his ignorance with two words. The main character from Earthsea series. I add the Wicked Witch of the West from Wicked, and Jenna from Sister Light, Sister Dark. Silmariel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 10 22:02:08 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 22:02:08 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Doe Message-ID: The Doe A Filk by Pippin To the tune of The Rose by Bette Midler (with apologies for changing so few words) For Amanda of course Some say love it is a teardrop that falls in a pensieve Some say love it is a heartbreak you wear upon your sleeve Some say love it is a hunger an endless aching need I say love it is a power and grief its only seed It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance It's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance It's the one who won't be taken who cannot seem to give and the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live When the night has been too lonely and the road has been too long and you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong Just remember in the winter in the cold and bitter snow That a love that hid in sorrow by the spring became the doe From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 10 22:18:41 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:18:41 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry References: Message-ID: <00e901c7db9c$d4788dc0$482fdcd1@...> Kneasy, old egg, are you a Tom Holt fan too? I first met him in the continuations to E.F. Benson's Lucia novels. Wonderfully funny but didn't quite have the Benson touch. From there went on to Who's Afraid of Beowulf, Expecting Someone Taller, and Flying Dutch. And it's been all downhill from there. How are you on the Pterry? Purrs! Gatta Quantum me cogitis omnes! --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike & Susan Gray" wrote: > > But I think, in general, that you won't very often find many modern > narrative with a clear protagonist-antogonist structure in which the > protagonist clearly outclasses everyone else. That would tend to detract > from suspense and also from the reader's ability to identify with the > protagonist. Also, fantasy stories are very often *also* Bildungsromane, in > which case the protagonists can hardly start out the story on top of the > world, even if they (like Ged) eventually get there. > There's one that springs to mind. Atypical, though. Might even be thought of as subverting the genre (now where have I heard that phrase before?) or even *gasp* poking fun at the genre. Jason Derry - erstwhile compulsory Hero of Tom Holt's 'Ye Gods!' Mind you, as he's semi-devine he starts with a bit of an advantage. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 11 10:54:15 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:54:15 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <00e901c7db9c$d4788dc0$482fdcd1@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kat Macfarlane" wrote: > > Kneasy, old egg, are you a Tom Holt fan too? I first met him in the continuations to E.F. Benson's Lucia novels. Wonderfully funny but didn't quite have the Benson touch. From there went on to Who's Afraid of Beowulf, Expecting Someone Taller, and Flying Dutch. And it's been all downhill from there. > Yerss.. He has a fine appreciation of the ridiculous. The Sunnyvoyde Residential Home for retired Gods in 'Odds and Gods'; a coach-load of demons getting lost on a works outing to Nashville in 'Paint Your Dragon'; Hell plc Management Committee and the Spectral Warriors in 'Faust among Equals'. Inspired. Bit disappointed with some of his later books, though. > How are you on the Pterry? > Do you mean T. Pratchett Esq., writer and the finest swordsman in Christendom? Yes and no. Some I haven't warmed to at all. Still, it's expecting a lot to like everything an author puts out. Witches - wonderful; wizards - not so hot ('cept the Librarian); City Watch - usually good fun. IMO one of his best books is one that isn't widely known. It's a collection of short stories, essays and reprinted magazine articles entitled 'Once More - With Footnotes' and is available from the NESFA Press only. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 11 19:19:13 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:19:13 -0000 Subject: TP - OT update: was: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" wrote: > > Do you mean T. Pratchett Esq., writer and the finest swordsman in > Christendom? > IMO one of his best books is one that isn't widely known. It's a > collection of short stories, essays and reprinted magazine articles > entitled 'Once More - With Footnotes' and is available from the > NESFA Press only. > Um. Just checked. Now out of print, though it's available on Amazon for $224, possibly cheaper through Abe Books. Was $25 (?15) when I bought it, only published in '04, too. Ah well, another one for the collectibles shelf, to nestle among a few other volumes that have become rarities post-purchase. Kneasy From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 11 23:40:46 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:40:46 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: TP - OT update: was: The trouble with Harry References: Message-ID: <00f301c7dc71$308cd6a0$482fdcd1@...> Sigh... I guess I'll have to give up on that one. My favorites, besides the Witches, are his one-timers: The Truth, Going Postal, Monstrous Regiment, Interesting Times. Unlike Holt, he just gets better and better. (I'd love to Sgt. Jakrum up against the Potterverse. Getting back to Harry Potter (sort of), here's a lovely site with original art for both Harry and Pterry: http://www.nocturnalsoldier.org/Tealin/artindex.html Purrs! Gatta Quantum me cogitis omnes! --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" wrote: > > Do you mean T. Pratchett Esq., writer and the finest swordsman in > Christendom? > IMO one of his best books is one that isn't widely known. It's a > collection of short stories, essays and reprinted magazine articles > entitled 'Once More - With Footnotes' and is available from the > NESFA Press only. > Um. Just checked. Now out of print, though it's available on Amazon for $224, possibly cheaper through Abe Books. Was $25 (?15) when I bought it, only published in '04, too. Ah well, another one for the collectibles shelf, to nestle among a few other volumes that have become rarities post-purchase. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Mon Aug 13 02:14:48 2007 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:14:48 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] [the_old_crowd] FILK: The Doe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awwwww. On a vaguely related note, the family listened to the Stephen Fry CDs of the Half-Blood Prince in our long drive to Florida and back, and I was struck again that Harry's first response to Snape is *always* to lie to him. It never occurs to him to tell the truth, to ask for help or an opinion, or anything of the sort. He always sees Snape as an enemy and adversary. Not even an adult; just a counter-force to Harry's wishes. How much difficulty could have been avoided if Harry even gave Snape the respect due his station...ah, but plot required it, I suppose. _____ From: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com [mailto:the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pippin_999 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 5:02 PM To: the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [the_old_crowd] FILK: The Doe The Doe A Filk by Pippin To the tune of The Rose by Bette Midler (with apologies for changing so few words) For Amanda of course Some say love it is a teardrop that falls in a pensieve Some say love it is a heartbreak you wear upon your sleeve Some say love it is a hunger an endless aching need I say love it is a power and grief its only seed It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance It's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance It's the one who won't be taken who cannot seem to give and the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live When the night has been too lonely and the road has been too long and you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong Just remember in the winter in the cold and bitter snow That a love that hid in sorrow by the spring became the doe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid Mon Aug 13 14:17:50 2007 From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:17:50 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: TP - OT update: was: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <00f301c7dc71$308cd6a0$482fdcd1@...> References: <00f301c7dc71$308cd6a0$482fdcd1@...> Message-ID: <56f2b65c0708130717y171b60f8q4f2a61f383e32a83@...> On 8/12/07, Kat Macfarlane wrote: > Sigh... I guess I'll have to give up on that one. > > My favorites, besides the Witches, are his one-timers: The Truth, Going Postal, Monstrous Regiment, Interesting Times. Unlike Holt, he just gets better and better. (I'd love to Sgt. Jakrum up against the Potterverse. > > Getting back to Harry Potter (sort of), here's a lovely site with original art for both Harry and Pterry: > > http://www.nocturnalsoldier.org/Tealin/artindex.html > > Purrs! > > Gatta > Quantum me cogitis omnes! Pyromids, Lords and Ladies. Humor - The Harry Potter Spoiler of Doom: http://www.masquerademaskarts.com/memes/harrypotterspoiler.php Currently discovering The Worst Witch series, and a bit amazed that HP gets compared to tolkien sometimes and not with this series. Nice to see you, Gatta, Yoda sends purrs. Silmariel From exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 15 16:11:54 2007 From: exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid (Amanda) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:11:54 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Do you mean T. Pratchett Esq., writer and the finest swordsman in > Christendom? > Yes and no. Some I haven't warmed to at all. Still, it's expecting > a lot to like everything an author puts out. > Witches - wonderful; wizards - not so hot ('cept the Librarian); > City Watch - usually good fun. > IMO one of his best books is one that isn't widely known. It's a > collection of short stories, essays and reprinted magazine articles > entitled 'Once More - With Footnotes' and is available from the > NESFA Press only. > > Kneasy Wow! I'm stunned that anything by Terry is out of print. I checked Amazom.com (the US site) who are selling a couple of copies through private sellers but the cheapest is over $200!! You should have better luck in the UK. Americans haven't really caught on to Terry yet, he's still a bit of a cult/lit hero here. But then fantasy in any form is a tough sell in the US. All except HP of course. Mandy From exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 15 16:24:45 2007 From: exslytherin at exslytherin.yahoo.invalid (Amanda) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:24:45 -0000 Subject: TP - OT update: was: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: <56f2b65c0708130717y171b60f8q4f2a61f383e32a83@...> Message-ID: > Currently discovering The Worst Witch series, and a bit amazed that HP > gets compared to tolkien sometimes and not with this series. > > Nice to see you, Gatta, Yoda sends purrs. > > Silmariel Hear, hear! I devoured the Worst Witch as a kid. I believe it was published as a one off in the 70's but sequels have been published since then. The TV show started in 98 and I think most people mistakenly think it came after Potter. I loved poor Mildred and her cat. Dreamt of going to Miss Cackle's Academy for Witches and was completely afraid of Miss Hardbroom. Cackles Academy is the basis for Hogwarts and JKR had to have read the books herself. Mandy From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 15 19:09:15 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:09:15 -0000 Subject: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: > > > > Wow! I'm stunned that anything by Terry is out of print. > > I checked Amazom.com (the US site) who are selling a couple of copies > through private sellers but the cheapest is over $200!! > > You should have better luck in the UK. Americans haven't really > caught on to Terry yet, he's still a bit of a cult/lit hero here. But > then fantasy in any form is a tough sell in the US. > Costs the same over here 'cept they're sterling equivalents. It was a special volume printed to commemorate his being GoH at a Boskone Convention (just 3,500 copies) - and SFAIK NESFA organise Boskone and have sole rights to commission and produce books that mark the events. Unless the fans invade New England demanding more, more, more! that's all there'll be, I'm afraid. Hence the soaring prices. Kneasy From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid Sat Aug 18 13:44:09 2007 From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:44:09 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: TP - OT update: was: The trouble with Harry In-Reply-To: References: <56f2b65c0708130717y171b60f8q4f2a61f383e32a83@...> Message-ID: <56f2b65c0708180644m78bfc08s133eca18c3dddf30@...> On 8/15/07, Amanda wrote: > Hear, hear! I devoured the Worst Witch as a kid. > > I believe it was published as a one off in the 70's but sequels have > been published since then. The TV show started in 98 and I think most > people mistakenly think it came after Potter. > I sure did. The mood was very Howgarts, and the strict all-in-black potions master... lol. They are airing the series, I saw the last year of Mildred, then Weirsisters College and know they are airing with a new school batch of the same families. Coupled with they are airing Doctor Who (and Torchwood), never aired in this country, and you've got a happy me. Not noticing any HP withdrawal. > I loved poor Mildred and her cat. Dreamt of going to Miss Cackle's > Academy for Witches and was completely afraid of Miss Hardbroom. > I'm enjoying them a lot. My fisrt though was 'why didn't you british people told me this existed?' > Cackles Academy is the basis for Hogwarts and JKR had to have read the > books herself. > I wonder who owns the media rights... I read that WB owns TWW and Sabrina as a method to avoid litigations, but it can be a rumor. Silmariel From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 15 22:03:56 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:03:56 -0700 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: The trouble with Harry References: Message-ID: <015901c7df88$49029200$482fdcd1@...> Wow, Mandy, where in the US are you living? Around here (Santa Crus, CA), fantasy of all sorts, including Pterry, just flies off the shelves. Purrs! Gatta Quantum me cogitis omnes! Mandy wrote: Wow! I'm stunned that anything by Terry is out of print. I checked Amazom.com (the US site) who are selling a couple of copies through private sellers but the cheapest is over $200!! You should have better luck in the UK. Americans haven't really caught on to Terry yet, he's still a bit of a cult/lit hero here. But then fantasy in any form is a tough sell in the US. All except HP of course. Mandy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sun Aug 19 09:30:29 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:30:29 +0100 Subject: Rumours Message-ID: Not what I was expecting. Interesting - if true. http://tinyurl.com/255b6p Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Sun Aug 19 15:54:58 2007 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:54:58 -0000 Subject: Rumours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > > Not what I was expecting. > Interesting - if true. > > http://tinyurl.com/255b6p > > Kneasy > One has the greatest of forebodings. One wonders if Rankin has actually read any of the HP series, not least the ending. Classic crime writing it ain't. Carolyn, grumpily. 'Rankin, who lives close to Rowling in the Merchiston area of the city - which is also home to McCall Smith - said her experience of writing fantasy adventure would help with crime fiction. "Her process is classic crime writing - the set-up, the red herrings, the characters who change as they are revealed, the twists and turns, and finally the big lineup at the end." From Oryomai at talia_dawn_3.yahoo.invalid Sun Aug 19 17:18:23 2007 From: Oryomai at talia_dawn_3.yahoo.invalid (Oryomai at talia_dawn_3.yahoo.invalid) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:18:23 -0400 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Rumours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C9B09C14DFC84C-AB4-820C@...> Kneasy: Not what I was expecting. Interesting - if true. http://tinyurl.com/255b6p . Oryomai: I read that last night...oh geez.? As I've said on the other list, JKR is fabulous with characters and ideas, but her plot ideas leave something to be desired.? Crime stories need to have a water tight plot in order for them to succeed...can't wait to see the Deathly Hallows type plot lines in this book! Oryomai Snape Lives. ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 22 23:50:27 2007 From: ewetoo at ewe2_au.yahoo.invalid (ewe2) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:50:27 +1000 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Rumours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91d14f320708221650m3572bfdu130b82a7d8a06e63@...> On 8/19/07, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > Not what I was expecting. > Interesting - if true. Told you she was a Christie nut :D I've been reading old Ngaio Marsh potboilers lately, some of which remind me of JKR also... ewe2 -- Emacs vs. Vi flamewars are a pointless waste of time. Vi is the best From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 24 19:44:16 2007 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:44:16 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and.. the Archers Message-ID: This will make absolutely no sense at all unless you are an Archer's fan, which for the benefit of non-Brits is a long-running radio soap about farming folk on BBC Radio 4. Read at your peril; probably best avoided. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/archers/listeners/parodies/harry_potter_worm .shtml From mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid Sun Aug 26 22:12:37 2007 From: mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid (Mike) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:12:37 -0000 Subject: New Guy Hi Message-ID: Hi Y'all, Kelley invited me into your group, and she said lots of folks make introductory posts. So, here's mine. ****Name: Mike Crudele, aka Phlytie Elf @HPfGU ****Age: 51 and I have the same birthday as akh, Jan 14, yay us ****Sex: Not near as often as I'd like ****Home: Loosely speaking, Plymouth, Michigan. About 10 miles from JudySerenity I'd guess, though I've never met the lady and after reading this I doubt she'd want to see that change. ****Profession: None, do I sound like I'm professional? Though I do have a job as a staff accountant. I used to be a fighter pilot in the USAF, so if anyone wants to talk flying, I'm game. ****Marital Status: Divorced, twice, but I'm not counting that second one cause it only lasted two years and the second one we spent more time in counselling than in the marital bed. And we still split. ****Chillens: From my first marriage, I have a 25 year old son that tries my patience and a 23 year old daughter who doesn't try anymore. I have a 2-1/2 year old grandson from my daughter. ****HP stuff: I started reading HP in 2003, just before OotP came out. I decided I liked these stories after reading PoA. Then I found I had a lot of time on my hands, as I was, erm, between jobs. So I reread the first five books about a dozen times each trying to solve the mysteries. And I was hooked. I'm relatively new to on-line Potterdom. Though I'm old, I'm not really an old_crowd in Potter years. So if y'all want to kick me right back out, I'll understand. I started checking out sites and corresponded with Red Hen in early 2006. Then I discovered HPfGU and joined in June '06. Hell, here was a place I could argue with lots of different people at the same time. ****OK, the obligatory favorite character admission: Sirius Black. I admit to being a hellraiser when I was in High School, like he was. I would have prodded the knot for Severus Snape myself, then walked away muttering "I wonder if you can see any difference this time". ****SHIPS: I'm not a sailor, I'm an Air Force guy. I gave a damn about Quidditch cause that was flying. I didn't and don't give a damn about the love lives or lack thereof amongst these teenagers. ****Favorite Book: Still PoA, though DH pulled into a close second. I loved all the backstory about the Marauders, including the Marauders Map. Anybody that can still insult Severus Snape from the grave is alright by me. ****My take on the Series: In a nutshell,...Almonds. Oh, yeah, the series; damn fine fantasy, adventure, mystery. Lots of plot holes that for the most part don't bother me. If you write a mystery series and spread it out over ten years, people are going to pick it apart for clues. That means they'll discover all the plot holes right along with the clues. That's to be expected, and I like bitching about them as much as the next guy. But like I said, they don't bother me that much and I don't let them ruin the story for me. OK, that's enough BS from me. Thanx for the invite, Mike From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid Mon Aug 27 23:29:31 2007 From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 23:29:31 -0000 Subject: New Guy Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Mike---I usually do not post be read posts fairly frequently! Welcome to the group. Not a pilot myself, but my father was a fighter pilot in WWII in the army air corp. Fran --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Hi Y'all, > > Kelley invited me into your group, and she said lots of folks make > introductory posts. So, here's mine. > > ****Name: Mike Crudele, aka Phlytie Elf @HPfGU > ****Age: 51 and I have the same birthday as akh, Jan 14, yay us > ****Sex: Not near as often as I'd like > > ****Home: Loosely speaking, Plymouth, Michigan. About 10 miles from > JudySerenity I'd guess, though I've never met the lady and after > reading this I doubt she'd want to see that change. > > ****Profession: None, do I sound like I'm professional? Though I do > have a job as a staff accountant. I used to be a fighter pilot in the > USAF, so if anyone wants to talk flying, I'm game. > > ****Marital Status: Divorced, twice, but I'm not counting that second > one cause it only lasted two years and the second one we spent more > time in counselling than in the marital bed. And we still split. > > ****Chillens: From my first marriage, I have a 25 year old son that > tries my patience and a 23 year old daughter who doesn't try anymore. > I have a 2-1/2 year old grandson from my daughter. > > ****HP stuff: I started reading HP in 2003, just before OotP came > out. I decided I liked these stories after reading PoA. Then I found > I had a lot of time on my hands, as I was, erm, between jobs. So I > reread the first five books about a dozen times each trying to solve > the mysteries. And I was hooked. > > I'm relatively new to on-line Potterdom. Though I'm old, I'm not > really an old_crowd in Potter years. So if y'all want to kick me > right back out, I'll understand. I started checking out sites and > corresponded with Red Hen in early 2006. Then I discovered HPfGU and > joined in June '06. Hell, here was a place I could argue with lots of > different people at the same time. > > ****OK, the obligatory favorite character admission: Sirius Black. > I admit to being a hellraiser when I was in High School, like he was. > I would have prodded the knot for Severus Snape myself, then walked > away muttering "I wonder if you can see any difference this time". > > ****SHIPS: I'm not a sailor, I'm an Air Force guy. I gave a damn > about Quidditch cause that was flying. I didn't and don't give a > damn about the love lives or lack thereof amongst these teenagers. > > ****Favorite Book: Still PoA, though DH pulled into a close second. > I loved all the backstory about the Marauders, including the > Marauders Map. Anybody that can still insult Severus Snape from the > grave is alright by me. > > ****My take on the Series: In a nutshell,...Almonds. Oh, yeah, the > series; damn fine fantasy, adventure, mystery. Lots of plot holes > that for the most part don't bother me. If you write a mystery series > and spread it out over ten years, people are going to pick it apart > for clues. That means they'll discover all the plot holes right along > with the clues. That's to be expected, and I like bitching about them > as much as the next guy. But like I said, they don't bother me that > much and I don't let them ruin the story for me. > > OK, that's enough BS from me. > Thanx for the invite, > Mike > From pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid Wed Aug 29 18:46:18 2007 From: pbnesbit at harpdreamer.yahoo.invalid (harpdreamer) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:46:18 -0000 Subject: New Guy Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Hi Y'all, > Hi Back at ya, Mike Just wanted to say welcome to the group! (And Yay to another Quidditch/Sirius fan :) ) In haste, Parker From mikesusangray at mikesusangray.yahoo.invalid Thu Aug 30 20:13:25 2007 From: mikesusangray at mikesusangray.yahoo.invalid (Mike Gray) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 22:13:25 +0200 Subject: Trying to locate Ebony Message-ID: <10058a9c0708301313r59f108cai5b36e389cfa4ea4a@...> Say guys, Does anyone around here have a bead on Ebony? I'd very much like to ask her for some help with some issues relating to rhetorical criticism in relation to fiction - but I can't seem to find her anywhere, and her LJ seems to be inactive. Ayn tips? Mike BTW, if there's anyone else here with expertise about rhetorical criticism of the Wayne Booth school, I'd be immensely interested in a conversation! From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 31 03:59:38 2007 From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 03:59:38 -0000 Subject: New Guy Hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Mike > ****Home: Loosely speaking, Plymouth, Michigan. About 10 miles from > JudySerenity I'd guess, though I've never met the lady and after > reading this I doubt she'd want to see that change. Haha! Yeah, you are right down the road from me. There are a couple of other Potter fans in the area, too -- maybe we can all get together sometime. There's also a Great Lakes HP fan Yahoo site, but the activity seems to mostly be in Grand Rapids. Of course, if we ever do meet, I'll probably regale you with reasons why Snape is wonderful.... Judy From catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid Fri Aug 31 07:30:54 2007 From: catorman at catorman.yahoo.invalid (Catherine Coleman) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:30:54 -0000 Subject: Trying to locate Ebony In-Reply-To: <10058a9c0708301313r59f108cai5b36e389cfa4ea4a@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike Gray" wrote: > > Say guys, > > Does anyone around here have a bead on Ebony? I'd very much like to > ask her for some help with some issues relating to rhetorical > criticism in relation to fiction - but I can't seem to find her > anywhere, and her LJ seems to be inactive. > > Ayn tips? > > Mike > > BTW, if there's anyone else here with expertise about rhetorical > criticism of the Wayne Booth school, I'd be immensely interested in a > conversation! Hi Mike, She said recently on LJ that she's pretty much moved to Facebook, so you could probably find her there. (And happy belated birthday, btw - meant to say something on LJ and the date passed me by....) Catherine >