From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 16 00:41:58 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:41:58 -0000 Subject: which came first, the phoenix or the flame? Message-ID: I know reptiles laid eggs before birds were invented... the first bird (wherever one draws the line of 'this is a bird') came from a dinosaur egg, and the first chicken came from the egg of some older species of bird. But I don't know enough about phoenices. In the Potterverse, there is more than one phoenix; Fawkes gave only two feathers for wands, but there are a lot more phoenix feather wands. Dumbledore said they're 'immensely long-lived', not immortal. Do they die of old age after too many fiery regenerations? Can they continue to regenerate from the damage of old age or Avada Kevadra an unlimited number of times? If neither old age or Avada Kevadra can kill them, what can? Other curses, like using a Severing Spell to decapitate him? Non-magical injuries, like being stabbed with a sword? Poison? I kind of assume they increase their numbers by sexual reproduction and laying eggs. Outside of the Potterverse, I'm under the impression that the phoenix (there is only one) lies itself down on a fire of precious incense wood and burns to ashes, then under the ashes is found an egg incubating, from which the phoenix hatches as a chick. In the Potterverse, it seems they burst into flame, which leaves ashes with a hatchling among them. If these assumptions are correct, I might answer that the phoenix comes BEFORE its (own) flame, as it had to be an egg, hatchling, fledging, adult, and old before its first regeneration. My first impulse was to say that that flame came first because the universe began as fire. I'm not at all sure I could defend the Big Bang, at 3 degrees Kelvin, as a fire -- "It was a cold fire!" But the Sun is surely a fire, and all the planets came from the Sun (from the gas cloud that was densifying from gravity to eventually become the Sun), and there was no Phoenix before there was an Earth for it to live on. But I can doubt whether wizards believe in astrophysics. I believe it was Hesiod who said that all began as chaos, from which Night (Nyx) emerged without a parent, and gave birth to (the Elder) Eros without a mate. Then Eros (attraction -- gravity, electromagnetic, the nuclear weak force and the nuclear strong force, quark glue) set all that chaos to order, with earth together underfoot and water together in the sea and air together atop earth and sea, and fire together up above. So there was a lot of stuff before there was fire, altho' I don't think any of that stuff was a phoenix. But in Ta-Meri ("the Beloved Land" ie Pharaonic Egypt), all began as muddy water aka watery mud, and a lotus grew and its flower rose above the water and opened and inside was ... Horus, or Ra, or Amun, or Aten, or Ptah, or Heka, or Bennu (Bennu is the Phoenix) or probably others I forget ... and whoever it was shone like the sun and dried up the water around that lotus, and that was the creation of earth. That first hill (islet?) was named Ben-ben, and I don't remember how there was a cow (Hathor, or Nuit) to nurse the newly-hatched god... Anyway, I think that would make the phoenix and flame simultaneous. From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 16 03:02:29 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:02:29 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] which came first, the phoenix or the flame? References: Message-ID: <005e01c83f90$2bbb6100$482fdcd1@...> I'm sorry, Catlady, but I can think of only one confusing thing at a time these days, and right now I'm thinking about Heraclitus of Ephesus, who has always made my sinuses stuff up and my brain go off line. But if we interpret his fragments correctly, which is a highly dubious operation, he taught that the primal substance was fire, which condensed into air and then water, earth, stone, and for all I know, a phoenix egg, and then started the whole process back again, so that the phoenix, which hatched out of the egg reverted once again to earth, water, air, and then into fire again. However, Heraclitus says nothing about phoenices, and I am not in a position to speak for him, since I have developed a sinus headache and am going to go to bed. Whuffle, whuffle, whuffle, wheeeef. Stuffy purrs, --Gatta I know reptiles laid eggs before birds were invented... the first bird (wherever one draws the line of 'this is a bird') came from a dinosaur egg, and the first chicken came from the egg of some older species of bird. But I don't know enough about phoenices. In the Potterverse, there is more than one phoenix; Fawkes gave only two feathers for wands, but there are a lot more phoenix feather wands. Dumbledore said they're 'immensely long-lived', not immortal. Do they die of old age after too many fiery regenerations? Can they continue to regenerate from the damage of old age or Avada Kevadra an unlimited number of times? If neither old age or Avada Kevadra can kill them, what can? Other curses, like using a Severing Spell to decapitate him? Non-magical injuries, like being stabbed with a sword? Poison? I kind of assume they increase their numbers by sexual reproduction and laying eggs. Outside of the Potterverse, I'm under the impression that the phoenix (there is only one) lies itself down on a fire of precious incense wood and burns to ashes, then under the ashes is found an egg incubating, from which the phoenix hatches as a chick. In the Potterverse, it seems they burst into flame, which leaves ashes with a hatchling among them. If these assumptions are correct, I might answer that the phoenix comes BEFORE its (own) flame, as it had to be an egg, hatchling, fledging, adult, and old before its first regeneration. My first impulse was to say that that flame came first because the universe began as fire. I'm not at all sure I could defend the Big Bang, at 3 degrees Kelvin, as a fire -- "It was a cold fire!" But the Sun is surely a fire, and all the planets came from the Sun (from the gas cloud that was densifying from gravity to eventually become the Sun), and there was no Phoenix before there was an Earth for it to live on. But I can doubt whether wizards believe in astrophysics. I believe it was Hesiod who said that all began as chaos, from which Night (Nyx) emerged without a parent, and gave birth to (the Elder) Eros without a mate. Then Eros (attraction -- gravity, electromagnetic, the nuclear weak force and the nuclear strong force, quark glue) set all that chaos to order, with earth together underfoot and water together in the sea and air together atop earth and sea, and fire together up above. So there was a lot of stuff before there was fire, altho' I don't think any of that stuff was a phoenix. But in Ta-Meri ("the Beloved Land" ie Pharaonic Egypt), all began as muddy water aka watery mud, and a lotus grew and its flower rose above the water and opened and inside was ... Horus, or Ra, or Amun, or Aten, or Ptah, or Heka, or Bennu (Bennu is the Phoenix) or probably others I forget ... and whoever it was shone like the sun and dried up the water around that lotus, and that was the creation of earth. That first hill (islet?) was named Ben-ben, and I don't remember how there was a cow (Hathor, or Nuit) to nurse the newly-hatched god... Anyway, I think that would make the phoenix and flame simultaneous. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 16 03:56:27 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:56:27 -0000 Subject: which came first, the phoenix or the flame? In-Reply-To: <005e01c83f90$2bbb6100$482fdcd1@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kat Macfarlane" wrote: << I'm sorry, Catlady, but I can think of only one confusing thing at a time these days, and right now I'm thinking about Heraclitus of Ephesus, who has always made my sinuses stuff up and my brain go off line. >> I'm sorry about your sinuses. Is that the Heraclitus who said "One cannot step into the same river twice"? If so, I did have some vague recollection that he said "all is fire" and spoke of something-dromena, meaning that every element offends against every element and must make reparations, but I don't think I ever read of his theory of the origin and therefore didn't even forget it. If 'fire' is a short word for 'oxidation', then a great many things are fire, but not smelting. From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 18 05:42:45 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:42:45 -0800 Subject: Happy Holidays! Message-ID: <006301c84138$fcae1420$482fdcd1@...> http://www.katmac.cncdsl.com/LoveandJoy_2007_TOC.htm Festive purrs! La Gatta [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jeralyns at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 18 15:30:28 2007 From: jeralyns at the_voicelady.yahoo.invalid (Jeralyn) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 07:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Happy Holidays! Message-ID: <559533.537.qm@...> Happy Holidays to all of my HP fans I've made over the years. Hubby bought me the dvd and the PS3 game for Christmas and let me open them early. I'm happy to say that I've defeated Voldemort, so the world is safe for us all. :) Jeralyn, the Voicelady [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 18 22:53:32 2007 From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:53:32 -0800 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: which came first, the phoenix or the flame? References: Message-ID: <003301c841c8$f046de20$482fdcd1@...> Heraclitus is definitely the "can't step twice into the same river" guy. I think the quote about offending and making reparations is from Anaximander, one of the Milesians, via one of the commentators on Aristotle, though I can't find an exact quote involving something-dromena (katadromena? anadromena?). Purrs, --Kat --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kat Macfarlane" wrote: << I'm sorry, Catlady, but I can think of only one confusing thing at a time these days, and right now I'm thinking about Heraclitus of Ephesus, who has always made my sinuses stuff up and my brain go off line. >> I'm sorry about your sinuses. Is that the Heraclitus who said "One cannot step into the same river twice"? If so, I did have some vague recollection that he said "all is fire" and spoke of something-dromena, meaning that every element offends against every element and must make reparations, but I don't think I ever read of his theory of the origin and therefore didn't even forget it. If 'fire' is a short word for 'oxidation', then a great many things are fire, but not smelting. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid Sun Dec 23 22:53:10 2007 From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 22:53:10 -0000 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: <559533.537.qm@...> Message-ID: Happy Hollidays Everyone! Or if you like police nabbed my dad! Fran (feliz Navidad) From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 24 10:04:39 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:04:39 -0000 Subject: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Message-ID: Seasonal Greetings from Schloss Kneasy! All preparations now complete for the traditional week-long shut-down that is the supposed two day holiday here in the UK. Fridge stuffed, goose gathered in, dip-stick on the booze reservoir registering at maximum, Igor up to his oxters in mince pies, relatives told that I'm somewhere on the upper reaches of the Limpopo and selected friends supplied with map of staked pits, mantraps and dead-falls intended to discourage unwanted visitors. Let the celebrations begin. Have a good one. Kneasy From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid Tue Dec 25 19:57:31 2007 From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:57:31 -0000 Subject: Amazon bought Beedle the Bard Message-ID: I saw this today...anyone know if they will publish the book? I wonder if JKR will allow it to be published for profit. Merry Christmas! Fran From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 31 00:31:30 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:31:30 -0000 Subject: Amazon bought Beedle the Bard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" wrote: > > I saw this today...anyone know if they will publish the book? I wonder > if JKR will allow it to be published for profit. Hi, Fran, Healthy and Prosperous New Year I'm surprised no one has replied on-list to you yet. There was much discussion of Beedle the Bard on HPfGU-OT, starting at but unfortunately intermixed with people who are offended or gratified when someone says 'Happy Holidays' to them instead of 'Merry Christmas' ('Happy Christmas' for the Brits). gives summaries and sample screenshots of the stories. In , she mentions in passing that she expected to put 30 tales in the books rather than 5, until she started handwriting it. From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 31 12:13:22 2007 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:13:22 -0000 Subject: 24 hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > In > Carolyn: I hadn't read this interview before, and expect it has been endlessly discussed but I found this snippet about the missing 24hrs extremely depressing: 'JKR:I'm gonna have to really go back through notes and either admit that I lost twenty four hours or I don't know, hurriedly come up with some back story to fill in. (SU laughs) Either way, you either get to be right, or you get more story. So you can't complain. ' When I think of the theories that have been built around that discrepancy... she really is the end. Watched her on UK TV last night, a documentary that followed her through 2007. The most useful thing that came over was the family thing - she is not on speaking terms with her father for instance. Also her husband saying how her worst fault is never asking for help and trying to do everything herself. However, she appeared very genuinely upset when taken back to the flat she first had in Edinburgh as a homeless single Mum. Carolyn From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 31 13:33:26 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 05:33:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: 24 hours Message-ID: <899047.48326.qm@...> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > In >> I hadn't read this interview before, and expect it has been endlessly discussed but I found this snippet about the missing 24hrs extremely depressing: 'JKR:I'm gonna have to really go back through notes and either admit that I lost twenty four hours or I don't know, hurriedly come up with some back story to fill in. (SU laughs) Either way, you either get to be right, or you get more story. So you can't complain. ' When I think of the theories that have been built around that discrepancy... she really is the end. <<< SSSusan: I'd missed this as well, Carolyn, and I have to say that it bugs me, too. Having been one of those people who devoted a fair bit of time to contemplation of the missing 24 hours and, well, truthfully, got a lot of glee from developing a theory about it (for once, since I'm not typically a creative theorizer), it's quite sad to hear this admission. I guess I hope that, rather than just making up something (potentially lame or lacking in detail) which is totally different from what I'd envisioned, she just admits the error. That way, I can more easily hang on to my own idea. SSSusan, wishing everyone a Happy New Year and wondering how Kneasy's duck came out [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 31 16:05:31 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:05:31 -0000 Subject: 24 hours In-Reply-To: <899047.48326.qm@...> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, susiequsie23 at ... wrote: > Carolyn: > >>> I hadn't read this interview before, and expect it has been endlessly > discussed but I found this snippet about the missing 24hrs extremely > depressing: > > When I think of the theories that have been built around that > discrepancy... she really is the end. <<< > > > SSSusan: > I'd missed this as well, Carolyn, and I have to say that it bugs me, too. Having been one of those people who devoted a fair bit of time to contemplation of the missing 24 hours and, well, truthfully, got a lot of glee from developing a theory about it (for once, since I'm not typically a creative theorizer), it's quite sad to hear this admission. > > I guess I hope that, rather than just making up something (potentially lame or lacking in detail) which is totally different from what I'd envisioned, she just admits the error. That way, I can more easily hang on to my own idea. > > SSSusan, > wishing everyone a Happy New Year and wondering how Kneasy's duck came out > Duck? What duck? Madam, twas a goose. Not a mere run-of-the-mill goose either, but a svelte super-star of a bird, raised on sun-lit rolling pastures, in a veritable goose nirvana of an existence, and a mere 3 miles from my front door: http://www.brisbournegeese.co.uk/freerangegoose.html Visible from the main road too, so able to monitor their well-being from early summer onwards, drooling slightly in anticipation. As for the JKR stuff: taken her time about it, hasn't she? Ten years since that 24 hour discrepancy(sic) appeared in the first book. Frankly, like you I think I'll stick with my illusions. It's more fun. As retrospective corrections/additions get dumped on the readership (how many more to come?), the less fascinating the books become IMO. Others may feel differently, and good luck to them, but impressive it ain't from this reader's viewpoint. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Mon Dec 31 17:29:56 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:29:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: 24 hours Message-ID: <975907.47499.qm@...> > SSSusan: > I'd missed this as well, Carolyn, and I have to say that it bugs me, too. Having been one of those people who devoted a fair bit of time to contemplation of the missing 24 hours and, well, truthfully, got a lot of glee from developing a theory about it (for once, since I'm not typically a creative theorizer), it's quite sad to hear this admission. > > I guess I hope that, rather than just making up something (potentially lame or lacking in detail) which is totally different from what I'd envisioned, she just admits the error. That way, I can more easily hang on to my own idea. > > SSSusan, > wishing everyone a Happy New Year and wondering how Kneasy's duck came out > Kneasy: >>> Duck? What duck? Madam, twas a goose. Not a mere run-of-the-mill goose either, but a svelte super-star of a bird, raised on sun-lit rolling pastures, in a veritable goose nirvana of an existence, and a mere 3 miles from my front door: http://www.brisbournegeese.co.uk/freerangegoose.html Visible from the main road too, so able to monitor their well-being from early summer onwards, drooling slightly in anticipation. <<< SSSusan: HA! That is what I get for posting before properly awake. Goose, goose, of course it was a goose. And it was delectable, I take? Your chosen-from-the-road-and-watched-for-months friend? I have to say, I feel for the goose just a bit, what with being "dry-plucked and waxed" and all. Ouch! Kneasy: >>> As for the JKR stuff: taken her time about it, hasn't she? Ten years since that 24 hour discrepancy(sic) appeared in the first book. Frankly, like you I think I'll stick with my illusions. It's more fun. As retrospective corrections/additions get dumped on the readership (how many more to come?), the less fascinating the books become IMO. Others may feel differently, and good luck to them, but impressive it ain't from this reader's viewpoint. <<< SSSusan: I don't mind so much the additions, as long as they are from background material she had *thought out well previously* and simply found not to be necessary or to fit well into the final drafts (a character's back story, say). But the corrections? Eh, I'm not so sure. And this notion of "Maybe I'll dream something up if I discover I've made a mistake" just isn't good at all imo. I still am enamored of the series, mind you. Got a lot of things I'd hoped for and was less distressed by some aspects of DH than many (especially adult) fans were. But the after-the-fact stuff is proving much less satisfactory than I'd expected it would be. Maybe it's because she seems almost too quick -- or simply flip -- with the revelations, when many of us had really rather expected some seriously-thought-through and detailed bits of fleshing out or expansion. SSSusan, with (alas) neither duck nor goose on today's menu, but the more proletariat fare of beef stew (which nonetheless smells divine while simmering) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]