'chained these 12 years' / Order-on-Order death /

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

Talisman wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/4743>:

<< I totally agree that the DE's--even Lucius-- knew Pettigrew was the
SK/traitor/spy, that's exactly why they believed he had a role in Lv's
downfall. As in the cite I offered, they all believed he was the
"double-crossing double-crosser." >>

I don't think Herself is going to sort this out in DH: HOW and WHAT
did all the Death Eaters know? Did LV summon them to a meeting (which
he must have done fairly often, because in GoF they still remembered
their assigned places in the circle) and announce: "A spy named
Wormtail will guide me to the hiding place of James and Lily Potter so
I can kill them in person"? Did they know Wormtail's name was Peter?
Pettigrew? Did they see his face? WHY would LV make an announcement
like that?

<< CL:
> It's not the same as theories in which DDM!Snape obediently killed
DD, because Sirius didn't agree to it.

T:
How do you know that Sirius didn't agree? Notice his increasingly
bleak mood after Christmas. Notice his tactful, regretful, avoidance
when Harry speaks of the possibility of living with him in the future.

Now, maybe Sirius just happened to be on the dias when DD arrived,
and DD obligingly used the gentlest method at hand to do the job.
Then again, maybe Sirius jumped up there for a reason.

I still think the Order on Order deaths relate to that comment Lupin
makes to Harry, in the kitchen of GP: that being in the Order entails
awful things that they (Harry et al) can't imagine--even though Harry
has faced death/Voldemort/Dementors/torture, etc. >>

You may well be right. 

But OoP says Sirius's eyes 'widened in shock' and 'Harry saw the look
of mingled fear and surprise on his godfathers wasted, once-handsome
face'. Shock and surprise are responses to something being unexpected.

I don't want Remus to be ESE, but even more I don't want Sirius's last
thought in life to have been that Remus unexpectedly killed him. If
Sirius expected it, or Sirius didn't notice that it was Remus, or it
wasn't Remus, those are better outcomes.

<< We have been told that we will see Sirius's communications mirrors
again. But, Rowling tells us, it's not so much the message, as the
*fact* of the mirrors that will make it meaningful.

What would it mean, if someone else has the other one? Because
Sirius entrusted it to them (maybe Snape?), before Sirius went to his
own Order execution? >>

It'd be in character for Harry to think that Snape stole it from
Black, not to believe that Black gave it to him. I suppose Harry might
believe Tonks if she told of Sirius giving her the mirror -- altho' I
still suspect that 'Tonks' in HBP was some bad guy Polyjuiced.

Talisman wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/4747>:

<< just as Barty Crouch, Sr., Bertha Jorkins, and Quirrell, etc. got,
in a sense, their respective comeuppances. >>

Just because Bertha was stupid and nosy, and sometimes blabby, doesn't
mean she deserved to be abused so very painfully before being killed.
Stupid and nosy and blabby are commonplace minor failings, not like
helping a convicted murderer/enemy agent escape from prison and
hiding him for years, still less trying to resurrect Lord Voldemort
and murder Harry.

Pippin wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/4749>:

<< If JKR has somehow managed to inspire in me the plot of a full
blown spy novel which she didn't write, I shall be far too busy filing
off the serial numbers and writing it myself. :) >>

I think 'filing off the serial numbers' would be plenty difficult. The
cauldron-full of Wolfsbane Potion is kind of recognizable, and the
Fidelius Charm...