'chained these 12 years' / Order-on-Order death /

[Talisman]

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at ...> wrote:
>
> Talisman wrote in
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/4743>:
> << I totally agree that the DE's--even Lucius-- knew Pettigrew was 
>the SK/traitor/spy, that's exactly why they believed he had a 
>role in Lv's downfall. As in the cite I offered, they all 
>believed he was the "double-crossing double-crosser." >>
>
CL: 
> I don't think Herself is going to sort this out in DH: HOW and WHAT
> did all the Death Eaters know? <snip> 

Talisman:
I, personally, don't need any further explanation.  We know, via 
Sirius, that the DE's *did* know Pettigrew/Wormtail was the Potter's 
SK / LV's spy.  

Similarly, we know that members of the Order knew Snape was a double 
agent--as did at least a number of DEs.  

We don't need to know the details of conversations that conferred 
this knowledge.  These matters are superfluous; padding the story 
with this information would do violence to the pacing and add nothing 
to either plot or subtext.

>From a practical perspective, it would only take one DE with ideas 
about Wormtail's role in the Godric's Hollow affair to spread the 
word to others.

Just as it only took Harry to tell the Order what he saw on the Tower.

And, if both groups came to erroneous conclusions--based on the 
interpretations of their respective informants--quelle surprise?

Hope that gives you peace.

> << CL:
> > It's not the same as theories in which DDM!Snape obediently killed
> DD, because Sirius didn't agree to it.
> 
> T:
> How do you know that Sirius didn't agree? <snip>
> Then again, maybe Sirius jumped up [on the dias] for a reason.
> 
> I still think the Order on Order deaths relate to that comment Lupin
> makes to Harry, in the kitchen of GP <snip>
> 
CL:
> You may well be right. 
> But OoP says Sirius's eyes 'widened in shock' and 'Harry saw the 
>look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfathers wasted, 
>once-handsome face'. 
>Shock and surprise are responses to something being unexpected.

Talisman:
I believe anyone on the receiving end of a stunning spell will 
register surprise. Sort of like getting a nasty electrical shock--
even if you see it coming.

As to fear, well death does that to people.  Even brave ones.  Lily 
knew what to expect, and chose not to fight at all, but was screaming 
her head off, nonetheless.
 
CL: 
> I don't want Remus to be ESE, but even more I don't want Sirius's 
>last thought in life to have been that Remus unexpectedly
>killed him.

Talisman:
I don't think there was any need for Lupin to participate directly in 
Sirius's death.  

Sirius was already standing in front of the veil, Bella was firing 
stunning rays, all DD needed to do was what he did: bind Sirius with 
the invisible ropes he was already shooting about, and perhaps tug 
him through the veil for good measure.

Nonetheless, the notion that this is an Order killing is enhanced by 
the fact that the only two people still fighting in the chamber were 
Sirius and Bella.

Lupin, who disarmed the trio with one good Expelliarmus--back when 
they had Sirius in their sites at the SS--notably didn't act to 
impede Bellatrix's offensive, on this occasion.

Nor did DD-of-the-many-flying-rope-spells, raise a so much as a 
magical finger to put Bella out of commission.

Then there is the way Lupin was able to restrain Harry from mounting 
the dias, but allowed him to chase after Bella, all by himself.

Of course, DD allowed Harry to run right past him, too.  And somehow 
was unable to hit Bella with any spell, as she galloped up the steep 
stone stairs--though fortunately the old geezer regained his accuracy 
in time to toy with the Dark Lord as if he were a disgruntled toddler.

Sure, Lupin knew what was on tap, but it was all DD's plan. 

   
>Talisman:
< We have been told that we will see Sirius's communications mirrors
> again. But, Rowling tells us, it's not so much the message, as the
> *fact* of the mirrors that will make it meaningful.
> 
> What would it mean, if someone else has the other one? Because
> Sirius entrusted it to them (maybe Snape?), before Sirius went to 
>his own Order execution? >>
>

CL: 
> It'd be in character for Harry to think that Snape stole it from
> Black, not to believe that Black gave it to him. 

Talisman: 
Well we'll have to trust Rowling to set up the circumstances 
necessary to convince Harry of Snape's true nature--something we know 
will happen, anyway.

CL:
>I suppose Harry
> might believe Tonks if she told of Sirius giving her the mirror -- 
>altho' I still suspect that 'Tonks' in HBP was some bad guy 
>Polyjuiced.

Talisman:
I'm sure Tonks was a bubblegum-pink-herring throughout most of HBP. 
Being lovesick for Lupin *was* the explanation for her odd behavior.  


> Talisman wrote in
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_old_crowd/message/4747>:
> << just as Barty Crouch, Sr., Bertha Jorkins, and Quirrell, etc. 
>got, in a sense, their respective comeuppances. >>

>CL: 
> Just because Bertha was stupid and nosy, and sometimes blabby, 
>doesn't mean she deserved to be abused so very painfully before 
>being killed.

Talisman: 
Hey--I didn't write the books! 

Still one could see Bertha as a malicious trouble-causer rather than 
letting her off as merely blabby.  

DD knows a bit more than we do, and we may well get a better picture 
of Bertha in DH. 

Whether or not we reach agreement as to what was *deserved* there 
*is* a cognizable pattern wherein people often play a causative role 
in their own demise, by persisting in an obvious character fault.

CL:
> Stupid and nosy and blabby are commonplace minor failings, not like
> helping a convicted murderer/enemy agent escape from prison and
> hiding him for years, still less trying to resurrect Lord Voldemort
> and murder Harry.

Talisman:
Now you're just picking on poor old Guilty!Dumbledore. <veg>