Snape a hero?

[susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid]

Kneasy:
>>> No, I don't think so, he doesn't qualify.

If someone acts as a double agent for 16 years,
reporting from the heart of the enemy camp, living
a double life, keeping up a front in his public life,
finally dying at the hands of the enemy just before
victory is achieved, but none-the-less surviving
long enough to pass important information to the
leader of the struggle, he'd normally be hailed as
a hero with no hesitation.

If, that is, he did it from a sense of moral or ethical 
conviction.

That's not ole Snapey.
There was no such conviction. It was a sort of half-
cocked combination of revenge for the death of the
girl who threw him over plus emotional blackmail
from one of the most practiced fixers in the business. 

Shame, really. I had hoped that Jo would have come up
with a more gutsy motivation for him. 16 years mooning
over some dead slapper? Nope, that's not how I've been
reading Sevvy. A definitive un-romantic IMO.

Yes, he was probably being brave, but I doubt that ever
crossed his mind. But pride rules. Once he'd given his
word he'd do his damndest to play his part to the hilt
in an attempt to stab in the back those whose actions
had reduced him to such a pitiful pass, if only to show
that he was cleverer than they.

And he pretty well succeeded.
But he was still a miserable old git - and probably proud
of that too. <<<


SSSusan:
Couldn't agree more... about bravery vs. being a hero and about his being a miserable old git.

Pulling in some bits from a post Over Yonder, 'cause I'm too damn lazy to re-compose it altogether.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/173013

colebiancardi:
> > yep, I saw that interview and thought, wow oh wow. So, what is
> > the definition of a hero, I wonder?

Nora:
> I would suspect that it has something to do with doing the right
> thing for the right reason. I've always thought that intention
> plays a major role in JKR's worldview, as magic seems to respond to
> it, among other things. Take Neville standing up to his friends
> and showing courage for the right reason.
>
> The way that Snape's love for Lily is presented, it's on an
> uncomfortable line. It motivates him to a lot of risks, but it
> doesn't make him a better person in areas such as treating students
> well, etc. It's more along the lines of obsession than love.


SSSusan:
That reference to Neville reminds me of another reason that I feel it
was 'appropriate' to bring up that Snape was not a hero even
while he was very brave.

We all remember the famous moment of Neville standing up to his
friends, which got him praise & reward from DD. It was a very brave
thing to do, to stand up to his friends. And Neville, I think,
developed along those lines even more.

What about Snape? What about what we saw in his pensieve memories,
when Lily confronted him about him joining in with his 'little Death
Eater friends'? He had once told her that her Muggleborn status did
not matter, he obviously craved her affections & cherished their
relationship, but in the end, he lacked the bravery to stand up to
his friends and tell them that they were wrong.

He *turned* brave later, making the choice of honoring Lily's memory
by playing the dangerous role of double-agent, by protecting a boy he
couldn't love or even like, and by *showing* all of this to Harry.
THAT was brave, and I think that's what Harry recognized and what JKR
acknowledged today.

But he wasn't able to do it back when his earlier decision faced him
(nor was Dumbledore in his earlier life!), so I do give him credit
for his later bravery. But the fact that he changed sides only for
Lily's sake, not for ideological reasons, not for James' or Harry's
sake... only for Lily's... I guess that's what prevents me from
thinking of him as a hero.


Colebiancardi?
> > And basically, is JKR stating that placing Snape in Slytherin
> > doomed and sealed his fate as a bad person with no redeeming
> > qualities whatsoever, if he didn't *love* Lily?

Nora:
> I didn't get the feeling that it was specifically his placement in
> Slytherin House that did it.

SSSusan:
Me, either. Again, I refer back to Neville. He was placed in
Gryffindor but he didn't *automatically* go along with his Gryffindor
friends. He evidenced the Gryffindor trait of bravery in standing up
to his friends and *not* going along with him. Snape could have done
the same thing and not gone along with his Slytherin friends when
faced with the choice of losing Lily's respect & friendship forever.
He did not. I see that as a personal choice, not as some kind
of 'automatic' coming from his placement in Slytherin.

I guess I see it that his love for Lily wasn't *enough.* Back when
he was a student at Hogwarts AND later after he'd come back to DD.
His love for Lily got him to the point of taking many right actions,
but it didn't take him to a lot of true growth & change internally,
which is what Nora was saying as well, I believe.

And I realize I could be missing something here, but I'm not seeing that as connected to his being placed in Slytherin, to his having been doomed by that placement.


Nora:
> I think a good portion of Snape's story IS that he was stunted and
> unable to let go, and he was kept running by his own personal
> interests and motivations. Being as the series is not "Severus
> Snape and the...", we don't get the internal view into what's going
> on in his head throughout, but his end story is rather tragic,
> although he is a profound force for the victory over Voldemort.


SSSusan:
Absolutely! As I was talking things over with my 11-year-old
daughter, I told her that Snape's story is a profoundly sad one in my
view. He was socially & emotionally stunted. As I told her, many
people in life suffer heartbreak in love, but most of them find a way
to move on. Snape was pathetically damaged socially (and I'm not
BLAMING him for that, I'm just saying). He could not move on.

Siriusly Snapey Susan