From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 2 04:52:15 2007 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 23:52:15 -0500 Subject: [the_old_crowd] The Geist predicts again, mostly about Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ADC5A64561241A1B76BB2D382FF100C@AmandaPC> Wow, I'm out of practice. I haven't been online at home for a couple of days and it didn't even occur to me that I might have *replies. Amanda: > (6.a.) Harry will be unable to withstand Voldemort's mental abilities. Pippin: Harry's already shown he can banish Voldemort from his mind. I don't think that's going to be undone. But Voldemort might demand that *Snape* use legilimency on Harry, and that might be the mechanism whereby Harry realizes that Snape is not on Voldemort's side. Amanda replies--Hey, my new Outlook doesn't put little carets in. What a pain. I'll have to see if that's a setting or something. Interesting thought, and likely, especially if Voldemort's been burned while in Harry's mind before. Let Snape run the risks. And it fills the criteria of something Snape does that Harry can misinterpret. I mean, the boy didn't credit that Snape had to play it in front of Umbridge; he certainly won't give Snape the benefit in a much more highly charged situation. > (8) Snape will die. Pippin: Nah, he lives. There's that old "he's tough" rumor. But he really doesn't fit the trajectory of a character who dies. He hasn't got a future, as you say. But it's the characters *with* a future who get knocked off. Or at least, the ones whom Harry expects to have a future. Cedric. Sirius. Even Dumbledore, who was obviously going to get his ticket punched, was handed a stack of unfinished business to leave behind him. Amanda replies: Good point; that's true. Okay, maybe not, but I'm not totally convinced. It just "feels" right for him to die. Pippin continues: It doesn't quite fit the pattern of a redemptive death either. Characters like that have some moment in their past when they should have chosen to face their doom and dodged it by joining the Dark Side. "YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED" bellows Sirius to Peter, and we know that Peter is going to have to die in the end. Boromir couldn't face the loss of his city, Anakin couldn't face losing Padme, and they have to redeem themselves by dying to save the people they betrayed, or their descendants. Now, if Snape should have turned down the UV, or should have died on the Tower rather than fulfill it, then he has such a moment. But otherwise he doesn't, because according to Dumbledore, when Snape's big test came, the moment when he should have died rather than co-operate with the murder of James, Snape passed. He's *already* redeemed himself. Amanda replies: Can you clarify this? I don't follow. Redemptive character = had a chance to choose good, which would have meant their doom, but didn't. So will be toast later. You reference several. So. Snape = had chance to choose good, but didn't. So he *won't* be toast later? I'm missing something, because you don't make mistakes in logical parallels like that. On to Kneasy. > (3) We may see a third in the sequence of brilliant plot mechanisms that > increase Harry and Snape's knowledge/understanding of each other without > their desire to know and without them growing any closer. Snape and Harry > have already been forced into a deeper understanding through the Occlumency > lessons and the old potions textbook. I can think of one plot device that > will continue this-more knowledge of Lily and any interaction she had with > Snape. Since both Snape and Harry see each other through eyes so prejudiced > they don't even realize it, this could lead to many interesting over- or > mis-reactions. Kneasy: Um. Not sure about this. Any understanding will come too late, IMO. Harry is not about to give Sevvy the benefit of any doubts and Snape doesn't give a toss what Harry thinks - he just wants him to fulfill the Prophecy in the way that DD planned it. Not exactly fertile grounds for mutual respect or understanding - and any hint that Sevvy saw Lily as a possible help-meet through life's trials and tribulations is liable to engender nothing but disgust in Harry. Amanda replies: No, you misunderstand. The whole point is that she's finding plot devices that increase their knowledge of each other, *without* any concomitant respect, increased benefit of the doubt, or lessening of dislike. I think the characters, for plot reasons, are required to know a fair amount about each other, but given their interaction, Rowling has had to find ways to inform them without them growing any closer. I think she'll find a third way (the first two were the Occlumency lessons, and the potions book). And my thought was that the new way could involve some Lily backstory/association. > (4) Related to #3: We will learn that he did love Lily... Kneasy: Hate LOLLIPOPS, just hate it. Not only is it mushy, it's also trite. So it'll probably be true. Arrgh! Amanda replies: For the record-the acronym LOLLIPOPS postdates my espousing of this theory on the old HP list. And "mushy" is in the eye of the beholder; and "trite" depends on how it's handled. Kneasy: Snape's greatest feat may be saving Harry from himself (see (7)). Amanda replies: OOOOOOOOOh. I like that thought. Ooooooo. Mmmmm. Lots of potential there. Kneasy, every so often you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark. Kneasy: What if, just for the sake of argument, ole Snapey really is a baddun. Amanda replies: His character will still be compelling. The "whys" will still be good questions. Personally, I had found his character intriguing well before the movie came out. I had "cast" that guy who played the Sheriff of Nottingham (I didn't know Alan Rickman's name at the time) as the perfect Snape, so I don't think my perceptions of the literary Snape were colored by the movie. I think the movies did a good job of creating what I'd picked up from the books. But if someone came to the movies first? Good question. My other way-before-the-movie-was-contemplated casting choice was Maggie Smith for McGonagall, but I will forever condemn the movie makers for casting anyone, anyone at all, other than Peter O'Toole for Dumbledore. He would have been ideal. Maybe Michael Gambon will get tired, and we will see the last of AgingHippie!Dumbledore, and Mr. O'Toole can make Dumbledore as he should be. ~Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 2 11:12:31 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:12:31 -0000 Subject: The Geist predicts again, mostly about Snape In-Reply-To: <2ADC5A64561241A1B76BB2D382FF100C@AmandaPC> Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Amanda replies: > > No, you misunderstand. The whole point is that she's finding plot devices > that increase their knowledge of each other, *without* any concomitant > respect, increased benefit of the doubt, or lessening of dislike. I think > the characters, for plot reasons, are required to know a fair amount about > each other, but given their interaction, Rowling has had to find ways to > inform them without them growing any closer. I think she'll find a third way > (the first two were the Occlumency lessons, and the potions book). And my > thought was that the new way could involve some Lily backstory/association. > Hm. Possible, but how much further does it need to go? On one side the cup of knowledge is probably brimming over already. Doubt that there's much that Snapey doesn't know about Harry. Possession Theory addicts are always on the look-out for little snippets, hints, even the merest breath of a possiblity of supporting or can-be-read -that-way canon. And with the benefit of later canon to modify or supplement previous ideas, it's possible to wile away the hours constructing all sorts of tempting scenarios. Quite often such mental ramblings can throw up 'what-ifs' about those inter-acting with Harry, too. That Sevvy is now known as a skilled Legilimens ought to give one pause when re-visiting the earlier tomes - as an example, back to PS/SS, the Sorting Hat scene. If, and admittedly it is still an if, the Hat saw Voldy/Sally intrusions in Harry's head, wouldn't Sevvy have been likely to see them too - and at the same time? Legilimens can't pick and choose the memories/thoughts accessed, the tendency is to see random stuff or what the target is thinking at that moment. And what was Harry thinking about under the Hat? Slytherin. And after the sorting Snape is giving Harry a very old-fashioned look, Harry's scar jolts - just the once, co-inciding with the one stare he gets from Snape. The general consensus is that it was a reaction to Voldy, sqatting under Quirrell's turban that triggered that. Dunno. Maybe. Probably. But since Voldy couldn't be seen, you'd think he'd be concentrating more or less full-time on the sprog that brought about his downfall. Again, if (another one) Sevvy left Voldy for compelling personal motives rather than because of high-minded principles (best bet, IMO) then DD's belief that Sevvy can be trusted has weight. Sevvy is a proud man who would never forgive a serious personal affront (say, an outrage against his family, as a working hypothesis) and he'd lust for revenge until the cows come home. And since his one fervent wish is to see Voldy smashed, he'd be a bit miffed to find a sort of enemy Trojan horse getting the glad-hand from all and sundry. In such circumstances what are the odds that Snape would ever like or trust young Potter? And for sure, he'd be keeping a very close eye (both the physical and the mental probe kind) on him ever after. As for Harry learning about Sevvy - school-boy crushes on mum are one thing, but what would be his reaction if he learned that Sevvy had a wife and child who died? Confusion, I'd imagine - likely as not the same reaction from the committed Snape-ophobes on the boards. Imagine their probings into Sevvy's psychological motivations re: Harry that would engender. Mmmm! Tasty! >> Kneasy: >> >> What if, just for the sake of argument, ole Snapey really is a baddun. > > Amanda replies: > > His character will still be compelling. The "whys" will still be good > questions. Personally, I had found his character intriguing well before the > movie came out. I had "cast" that guy who played the Sheriff of Nottingham > (I didn't know Alan Rickman's name at the time) as the perfect Snape, so I > don't think my perceptions of the literary Snape were colored by the movie. > I think the movies did a good job of creating what I'd picked up from the > books. But if someone came to the movies first? Good question. > Must admit, I was hoping for a much nastier portrayal of the Potions-Meister, possibly Malcolm McDowell in near-psychotic mode. Can't have been easy to cast. > My other way-before-the-movie-was-contemplated casting choice was Maggie > Smith for McGonagall, but I will forever condemn the movie makers for > casting anyone, anyone at all, other than Peter O'Toole for Dumbledore. He > would have been ideal. Maybe Michael Gambon will get tired, and we will see > the last of AgingHippie!Dumbledore, and Mr. O'Toole can make Dumbledore as > he should be. > Trouble is, I keep expecting Maggie to launch into "My gurrls..". Couldn't agree more about Peter O'Toole. Kneasy From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 2 22:49:44 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:49:44 -0000 Subject: The Geist predicts again, mostly about Snape In-Reply-To: <2ADC5A64561241A1B76BB2D382FF100C@AmandaPC> Message-ID: Pippin, previously: > Now, if Snape should have turned down the UV, or should have died on the > Tower rather than fulfill it, then he has such a moment. But otherwise he > doesn't, because according to Dumbledore, when Snape's big test came, the > moment when he should have died rather than co-operate with the murder of > James, Snape passed. He's *already* redeemed himself. > > Amanda replies: Can you clarify this? I don't follow. Redemptive character = > had a chance to choose good, which would have meant their doom, but didn't. > So will be toast later. You reference several. So. Snape = had chance to > choose good, but didn't. So he *won't* be toast later? I'm missing > something, because you don't make mistakes in logical parallels like that. Pippin: Okay, I'll try again. Maybe Snape blew his obligation to Dumbledore by taking the UV, or by killing Dumbledore on the tower If so, if he should have died instead, then he'll have to die if he is to redeem himself. But if that didn't happen, then what we're left with, according to Dumbledore, is that when he found out the Potters had been targetted, Snape changed sides, a choice that should have meant his death. If Snape *accepted* his doom instead of violating his obligation to the good side, that makes him very different than Peter, or Anakin or Boromir. If JKR can make us believe that, then she shouldn't have to kill Snape to show us that he's still capable of making the right choice, or to convince us that he won't backslide. > > Kneasy: > > What if, just for the sake of argument, ole Snapey really is a baddun. > Pippin: It would be totally out of keeping tone-wise with the rest of the story, IMO, like Hermione turning out to be a scarlet woman. There's no shortage of boo-hiss villains in the rest of fantasy, especially children's fantasy, so why does the Potterverse need one? I think JKR is showing us a world where evil exists beyond question but the belief in villains is part of the problem. Psychologically, the boo-hiss villain is a composite, a bit of poetic license -- logically no one can have both a completely amoral nature and at the same time be in gleeful rebellion against his conscience. Pippin also deeply attracted to Snape before the movie came out From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 3 10:49:58 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:49:58 -0000 Subject: FW: The Geist predicts again, mostly about Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > > > ~Amandageist > > > > P.S. - I *was* nice enough to leave out all the predictions I'd made that > turned out to be right.. > > : D > > and I shall be nice enough to leave out all of my predictions that were *wrong* (100% to date) > > _____ >> > > (1) The rest of the Order, along with Harry, go on believing Snape is a > turncoat. Who wouldn't! Although I'm with Kneasy in that someone ought to have doubts....but who? I wonder if it is possible that the trio will get some unidentified help giving rise to much speculation, Hermione would be the usual suspect for rational analysis but wouldn't it be fun if Harry started to believe in Snape! I also wonder if Draco may have some intermediary role? > > > (2) Hermione discovers the tarot and thus they realize they are looking > for, among other things, Rowena Ravenclaw's wand. I think it unlikely the tarot will be referenced directly, clues could be in portraits, books or statues although that requires a trip to Hogwarts. > > > > (2.a.) Ollivander has it. His ancestor made it (they've been in business > for two thousand years, after all). He's hiding; they have to find him > before the other side does. [but if Voldemort hasn't Horcruxed it yet? > Maybe Ollivander's hiding because he is in danger for the simple reason that > he can tell Harry that he's looking for a wand.] Hum I think it is Neville's new wand. > > > (3) We may see a third in the sequence of brilliant plot mechanisms that > increase Harry and Snape's knowledge/understanding of each other without > their desire to know and without them growing any closer. Snape and Harry > have already been forced into a deeper understanding through the Occlumency > lessons and the old potions textbook. I can think of one plot device that > will continue this-more knowledge of Lily and any interaction she had with > Snape. Since both Snape and Harry see each other through eyes so prejudiced > they don't even realize it, this could lead to many interesting over- or > mis-reactions. I hadn't thought of it this way, it's a good take. I'd always viewed this as a result of the POV. So you are thinking along the lines of a letter (or potterverse equivalent) to be read in the event of DD's death for example. Something along the lines of "here's the reason I trusted Snape tell no one else". All the interactions between Snape and Harry never lead to greater understanding, the occlumency lessons are a prime example, the only time Harry managed to repel Snape was when he wasn't thinking but was compelled by strong emotion yet Snape is still advising Harry to control his emotions which will never work. Lupin teaching Harry the patronus charm had the measure of him, with Harry emotions will always come first. Harry has no compassion for Snape in spite of what he has seen of his past and still doesn't get that there is more to magic than foolish wand waving. > > > > (4) Related to #3: We will learn that he did love Lily; but by that I mean > *he* loved *her,* likely from afar, unless he managed to say something and > was let down easy. I don't think they ever had a relationship. [I still > think part of the strength of the venom he associates with James is due to > some neat sublimation, where he associates all the negative of being let > down to James, and all the positive feelings that remain to Lily. Also the > very deep fear that Lily may have told James; can you imagine his (even > imagined) humiliation, to even consider that James *knew* and could have > laughed?] Lollipops makes sense but it's sooo lame. For me it would reduce Snape's character. I prefer the idea that Lily was a close friend of Narcissa (Snape's great love of course), James got Lily but Narcissa turned down Snape, now where's the justice in that! > > (5) We will hear reports of Snape doing things that can be interpreted in > two ways but will be presented as only Evil!Snape. As above I'm for un-attributed acts of aid which may or may not be Snape related but will have his sticky paw prints all over them. > > > > (5.a.) Harry will fatally misunderstand some action of Snape's, and act > based on his own interpretation of it, to the great harm of both Harry, > Snape, and the cause. JKR depends on Harry's misinterpretation of things as > a plot driver; and this is prime territory. For example, I will be genuinely > surprised should Snape honestly turn out to be wholeheartedly supporting > Voldemort--but since he must give that impression, and Harry is so ready to > believe it, we will likely see more ambiguity (if not wilfull disbelief on > Harry's part) leading to mishap. Possibly as I outline in #6. There has to be some jeopardy in the final confrontation, something has to risk Harry beyond Voldy and this is as good an option as any. The end may all turn on whether Harry should and can trust Snape > > (6) Harry will confront Voldemort with Snape present. > Oh we do have the makings of an excellent mexican standoff don't we. > > > (6.a.) Harry will be unable to withstand Voldemort's mental abilities. > Not so sure about this. Perhaps Snape will be unable to withstand Voldy at a crucial time - trust needs to go two ways in the end :-) > > > (6.b.) Snape will have to mentally "shield" Harry at some point-- for only > with help from someone as skilled as Snape would Harry be able to lie or > even hold his own in a conversation with Voldemort (unless Harry's signed up > for Kwikspell's Occlumency program over the summer). > > Snape will have to mislead, connive, lie and twist on Harry's behalf. It isn't in Harry to deceive. Harry will have to throw caution to the wind, risk all in an heroic grandstanding piece of juvenile but glorious daftness to save Snape. He'll hate it! > > (6.c.) This will endanger not only Snape himself, but also the long-laid > plans that require Voldemort to trust Snape. Either because (a) Voldemort > detects Snape's action himself; or (b) Harry cannot bring himself to trust > Snape and betrays him to Voldemort. I can see him doing it, either > deliberately out of fury at Snape, or inadvertently, out of an inability to > break his habit of resistance to Snape. > > > > (7) Regardless of whether it takes the shape I lay out in #6, Snape will be > injured or otherwise damaged through some attempt to protect Harry, which > Harry does not understand and therefore fights, causing it to go awry. A > potential scenario is in If myIt may be the spell that Dumbledore's willing > death could have been a part of (see #11 below). > Ah the long laid plan and DD's death. Is there a plan? Is DD dead? Keeping in mind my duck like batting average I state there is no plan. There is only Harry and his moral compass. There will be a choice: the right thing or the smart thing, Snape will opt for smart Harry will opt for right. > > (8) Snape will die. All of his character looks backward. He gives me the > impression of someone whose goals are not ahead, except to rectify mistakes > made, and who does not care much if he dies in that attempt. He can't let > the past go, because that's where he lives; I think he accepted long ago > that the future holds only one task for him and nothing else, and so has > made no effort to move past the past that defined that future. I personally > think he will go heroically in some blaze of redemption, but he's toast. > > If Snape dies and Harry lives who's the biggest hero? Of course Snape should die, he should die for Draco or Duddly or both. Or Dobby! > > (9) Snape may or may not have been truly evil at various points in the > books or their prehistory--but his final choice will be for the good. > Harry will not believe this until in hindsight. Harry's not understanding > will be part of what led to Snape's death. > > Wouldn't it be great if Snape's final demise was ambiguous?? We may never know Snape's true motivation. Nah it won't happen. Snape made his choice, he's good. Well mostly good! However, I'm not at all convinced he will die, quite possibly he'll be horribly maimed or tortured. it will all be Harry's fault. > (10) Harry will learn why Dumbledore trusts Snape, from a memory Dumbledore > left safely bottled in his office somewhere. > > Yes but when does he find out. The beginning, the middle or the end? > > (10.a.) Dumbledore did not tell Harry why, because he himself didn't know > (because the memory wasn't in his head, it was in the bottle). > No, not buying that. Either DD was protecting Snape or Harry or both, it will be another of DD's high handed decisions. > > > (10.b.) Harry will immediately understand why Dumbledore didn't tell him in > the first place; and immediately wish he still didn't know. (since he is > such a liability where Legilimency is concerned). > > --OR-Harry will convince himself that Dumbledore had been fooled. > > Harry will not want to know anything soft and gooey about Snape (who does) he won't believe but he'll be so violent in his rejection we'll know he really does. He will try and belittle Snape's action and justify his own superiority. He will be faced with a similar choice and make the opposite call (correctly) but he will realise that the outcome was not predetermined, luck plays a part. However, we will be left with no illusions as to who made the right choice! > > (11) We will learn that Dumbledore's death was part of two things: > > --A plan-maybe not Plan A, but definitely one of the potentials, and Snape > was adhering to Dumbledore's will as much as Harry had been when Harry fed > him the potion. > > --A powerful spell, where a willing death was a component, which required > Snape's action to complete. > > As I said in an earlier post: "I believe that, however Dumbledore dies, both > Harry and Voldemort will *believe* that Snape is responsible. Snape will > foster this belief in Voldemort; it will be an unfortunate conclusion drawn > by Harry (who for whatever reason--Dumbledore's general lack of any desire > to explain anything, a misunderstood conversation, a missed message, > etc.--will not know or will refuse to believe that Snape did not do it). At > this point, Snape and Dumbledore will have accomplished two key things: > --Snape will have proven himself to Voldemort and will be reinstated with > full DE honors or whatever, in the inner circle. Even if he wasn't in the > Inner inner circle before, I think he will be now, because (a) Voldemort's > followers have diminshed somewhat and (b) Snape now has a very useful > position. > --The spell, whatever it is, to which Dumbledore's death is integral, will > have been completed (or nearly so). > "These are key because Snape will now be in a *superb* position to implement > or otherwise set in motion or effect, the spell. Having a tremendous spell > ready is of no use at all, if the spell cannot be cast or implemented due to > lack of access. Access is of no use without a weapon. Snape will have both > the access and the means." > > As above I'm not a believer in the cunning plan but as I'm always wrong that means its a racing certainty so I'll have to be wrong in a different way. So DD is not dead. JKR was having a laugh when she poisoned, shot and chucked him off the tower. The plan is that Harry will believe there was a plan and that DD wouldn't wilfully abandon him to face Voldy with no better friend than Snape. Harry will trust DD even though in the end DD isn't there (probably because of some misunderstanding between Harry and Snape!). > > (12) Harry will be brought to a literary parallel with Snape-he will be > presented the opportunity Snape was, in the Shrieking Shack: to recognize > that an object of hatred had been misunderstood and was, in actuality, > following orders and as much a victim as himself. Much as Snape rejected > the possibility of another view of Lupin, as another to whom Dumbledore's > second chance meant the world--- Harry may reject the possibility of any > other view of Snape than the one he so cherishes and defends. I don't know > if Harry will completely fail, as Snape did-but I do think his hesitation > will cause major problems, possibly Snape's demise. > Well Draco would be the stand out candidate here don't you think? > > (12) Snape will have problems maintaining his own control, because of > Dumbledore's death. I think Snape loved Dumbledore. Snape himself is > young--old enough intellectually to accept what Dumbledore asked him to do, > but facing problems of his own on the *emotional* level. He's already pretty > unsteady there as it is. So Snape's own reactions to what happened will > cause difficulties. I think that Dumbledore's death devastated Snape, for I > believe that to Snape, as to Lupin, Dumbledore's trust has meant everything. > And he cannot show it at all-leaving a lot of emotion behind a dam, ready to > cause damage if it is breached. Say, by the weakening caused by having to > protect a clueless boy during his confrontation with the Dark Lord. > Especially if that clueless boy must be shielded because his knowledge of > Dumbledore's plan must be hidden from Voldemort, lest the sacrifice Snape > made in killing Dumbledore be wasted. Especially if he blames that clueless > boy for Dumbledore's death (because I can see him blaming Harry, just as > Harry blames Snape for Sirius' death). > Ok so DD is dead. In which case Snape will deeply resent that DD chose Harry and his non prophecy destiny over a DD and Snape combo of wit, intelligence, experience, skill, knowledge and maturity. Can't imagine why! > > > (13) Snape will remain Snape and operate on his own terms to the end. > Whatever he does to save Harry or the cause, whenever he does it, he will do > it in his particularly nasty and cruel manner, without one shred of > softening at all. We will be denied any dewy-eyed scene of forgiveness. > Snape cannot forgive himself for his past and for what he did to Dumbledore, > and true Slytherin that he is, nobody else's forgiveness matters. > > Reconstructed Snape, what a thought, saved by the love of a good woman...nope not going there. > > (14) Harry will realize Snape's death as a loss, not a triumph. Snape is a > father figure to Harry--one of the most reliable, in fact. He is all the > negative aspects--the one who doesn't understand, who sets curfews, who > isn't interested in explanations, who sets rules, who doesn't seem to care. > The aspect that you hate. The one you do not appreciate until many years > later--or when he is gone. And we don't have the luxury of "many years > later" in this series (or indications are strong that we don't). > Dead Snape will not be missed but he will be respected. It won't be a loss it will be a redemptive sacrifice which is always a gain. Harry will take over something of Snape's eg protection/friendship of Draco, potions, long greasy hair and so Snape will be acknowledged as a father. Non dead Snape (not undead) will equally command respect he will take on something of Harry's eg good parenting of Draco, lasting DADA post or a Weasley of his own and so acknowledge the son. > > ~Amandageist, old Snapologist > > Jo who never understood the romantic attractions of Snape not even after they cast Alan Rickman! From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Thu Jun 7 14:02:22 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:02:22 -0000 Subject: Preparing Message-ID: A mere - what? 44 days to go, is it? No signs of concern? All parts maintaining an even strain? Good. Bet there're a few out there re-reading the series, just to refresh their memories and ensure that what they believe to be facts haven't been contaminated by past posts on the sites that might have been a touch cavalier in the treatment of strict canon. Plus there's always the possibility that a last minute blinding light of revelation may bathe one in a coruscating nimbus, giving one the opportunity to pip Jo at the post with the low-down on what it's all been about. Might happen; might have happened already, if we but knew it. Jo has claimed it hasn't - well, to paraphrase Mandy, she would say that, wouldn't she? Besides, there are so many sites and such an enormous number of posts that keeping track of them all seems a physical impossibility. The odds are that somewhere, on an unregarded nerdish site in a dusty corner of the web, a spotty 15 year old has cracked it. Well done, that fan! Have a peanut. Apart from yearnings for a surfeit of blood n'guts to round off the series (hopefully including a Weasley cull, bloody Luna, that creep Creevey, most of the DEs [with a spectacular carpet- chewing performance from Bella] these additional to the extirpation of Voldy, the tragic demise of Lupin, the squelching of Peter, Snape expiring with a curled lip and a "Get on with it, Potter!" and Harry ending up as a plain, ordinary Muggle) I'm not too fussed about the finale. Yeah, I know, most of those aren't going to happen anyway. But I can dream. No, like most senile old fools, I live in the past, so it's the clearing up of the aggravating blank bits in the back-story that interest me most. What happened to the Founders - particularly Sally; what happened (if anything) to Tom in the Chamber; the prophecy in the pub; Godric's Hollow; the 24 hours, and above all - motivations. What it was that set the various characters on the courses that they took, especially DD and Snape. So as preparation for the final installment I've been reviewing my old posts, checking old theories and rationalisations, sorting 'em out into overtaken by canon, might still be applicable, and the just plain loopy. There's an awful lot that I'd forgotten about, almost makes me wish book 7 could be postponed for a few months so that old ideas could be re-vamped or further developed - almost being the operative word. Since most of my theoretical stuff is disproportionately about motivations and the lacunae, it hasn't been so subject to the wipe-outs that the forecasting fans have risked at the appearance of each new volume. Up to now, what started as puzzling gaps and silences have generally remained as such, with just the occasional snippet thrown in by our author to further whet our appetites. Hopefully that's all done and dusted, and it's time for the final assessment, and I reckon that Hurricane Jo which blew through with GoF will seem like a halcyon breeze compared to the devastation likely next month. Lot of minor-ish ideas amongst those old posts, but I'll be watching to see how three theories in particular fare: Puppetmaster!DD, Possession Theory and Blackwidower/Snape!Son. You'll have your own favourites, no doubt. Oh, and in one old post there was an aside that's niggled a bit since re-reading - just who carved the serpent on the tap in Myrtle's bathroom and why? Sally can't have done it, which means that Tom found the entrance without it and had no need for it thereafter, not even while in possession of Ginny - unless he knew there'd be someone, someday who would follow in his footsteps. Kneasy From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 15:59:02 2007 From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:59:02 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a reworking of Kneasy's Black Widower!Snape theory (here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/111173 ) which I posted on TOL last October. Reposting it here on the off- chance that anyone wants to take a pot-shot or two. (I know the canon endnotes are fiddly to refer to, but the whole post is almost illegible if I try to include them in the text.) The premise is that Snape had a wife and/or child who was/were murdered by Voldemort, and that is the reason he returned to the good side, and the reason that he wears nothing but black. I should mention that Kneasy's post was very much more like Out-For-Himself! Snape, whereas this version is decidedly DDM (I can't help it, you know). The two major bits of relevant canon we were given in HBP are: 1. Snape was the eavesdropper.[1] 2. When Snape realised how Voldemort was interpreting the prophecy, his remorse made him 'return' to the good guys' table.[2] Let's begin by trying to put ourselves in Voldy's shoes. How would he interpret the scrap of prophecy which Snape brought him? [3] The thrice-defied part, in particular. We know, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, and rather a lot of prompting from DD [4], that it applied to James and Lily and Frank and Alice, and that they were all four in the Order of the Phoenix, and must have interfered with Voldy's plans on at least three separate occasions, but it wouldn't necessarily have been immediately obvious to Voldemort at the time, at least six months before Harry was born. Just try to imagine for a moment that you're a power-hungry psychotic (easier for some than others) and someone has just told you a kid with the clout to pulp you is going to be born; you'd start getting twitchy around *any* pregnant women, wouldn't you? Oh, and you'd utterly forbid the minion who brought you the news to tell anybody else. So let's say that it's about now that Snape's wife [5] discovers that she is pregnant. Narcissa's pregnant too! How nice. Snape works out immediately that both children are due at the end of July. Lucius is his friend [6], Snape warns him of the problem, and tells him the first two lines of the prophecy [7], pleading with him to not let Voldemort know that Narcissa is pregnant, because it will put her in danger. But Snape is too late, Voldy already knows that the Malfoys are expecting the patter of tiny feet. The two couples are understandably worried, Voldemort has not told Snape anything about how he's interpreted the prophecy, so Snape has *no clue* what he intends, and no clue exactly how he's reading `as the seventh month dies'. At the beginning of June, Lucius and/or Narcissa panic and induce their baby early (however they do such things in the WW). Draco is born dangerously premature on June 5th, [8] but it's better that he should struggle through his first year of life (Magical Medicine should be enough to see him through) than that Voldy should even consider the possibility that he's the prophecy baby. The Malfoys are very grateful to Snape for the warning he gave them, and know that he's risked a lot for them by disobeying Voldy's command to tell no one about the prophecy. The Snapes, for some reason (difficult pregnancy?) do not want to risk inducing their baby prematurely. They've got around the problem so far by not letting it get out that Mrs Snape is pregnant, so Voldy doesn't know. Then catastrophe. Regulus.[9] Dear old Regulus can't handle it and wants out of this Death Eating lark, or at least, that's what he tells Snape. Naturally, Voldy wants Regulus as dead as he can be in as short a time as possible. Reg doesn't tell Snape about the Horcrux [10], because he doesn't want Snape in trouble with Voldy, and Snape doesn't tell Reg about the prophecy, for similar reasons. Snape and Reggie are old pals, united in their hatred of Sirius at school, so Snape (foolishly ? he hasn't learned too much about Voldy yet) tries to help Reg, save him, hide him, whatever. Voldemort knows that Snape and Regulus are thick as thieves, so he questions Snape, who is still wet-behind-the-ears, [11] and as yet unable to hide his lies with Occlumency [12]. Voldemort knows he's lying, Regulus is quickly discovered and killed within days of Voldy shouting "Off with his head!" [13] Voldemort is therefore very much displeased with Snape. He orders Snape to be killed (that'll learn him!). However, Lucius Malfoy, still grateful to Snape for his tip off about the prophecy, intervenes (at great personal risk) to persuade Voldemort to spare Snape. Lucius's strategy involves pointing out to Voldy how very useful a talented young wizard like Snape could be. [14] Unfortunately, in the process of defending and arguing for Snape, Voldemort, the expert Legilimens [15], discovers from Lucius that Snape has told him about the prophecy, and that baby Snape is due around the end of July, and they've kept it secret from him. So Snape has now defied Voldy a) by telling Lucius the prophecy when he was forbidden to; b) conspired to aid Regulus who Voldy wanted dead, and c) hidden away the fact that his wife's expecting a child at the end of July. Voldy is furious. But slippery old Lucius's words stay his master's hand in the end, Snape gets home one night to discover the dark mark above his home, and his wife and child, or his heavily pregnant wife, dead. Were they important enough to be killed by Voldemort himself [16], or did he get someone else to do it? Was Snape made to watch? Was he Imperio'd, and made to do it himself? But then, why on earth would Voldemort ever trust Snape again? Is he so blind as to not realise that killing people's families puts you in their bad books? Well, actually, he sort of could be. This is the height of his reign of terror, he's surrounded by people like Bonkers! Bella, and Barty Crouch Junior, who don't blink at having family members slaughtered to ensure the continued rise of the dark order [17]. I don't think Voldy trusts anybody [18]. And since Bella certainly doesn't trust Snape [19], I don't see why Voldemort would. I think one of Voldy's aims in HBP (which I've gone on about before [20]) was to test Snape's loyalty - "He expects me to do it in the end, I think." HBP, 2:39). At the end of HBP, Snape has killed DD, the only one Voldemort ever feared. Voldy trusts him now, as much as he will ever trust anyone. He probably even respects Snape's apparent ability to not take the murder of his family personally ? he's that kind of psycho. Lucius has convinced him that Snape could be put to good use, that killing him would be a waste of a potentially good DE. So for a bit of fun, Voldemort sends him to DD to beg for the DADA job, and infiltrate Hogwarts with a mission similar to the one he gives Draco 16 years later, the ultimate goal being to kill DD. Voldy is hoping or expecting that Snape will either be killed in the attempt, or suffer horribly from the DADA curse, or both. DD, however, suspects that Snape is a Death Eater (though he doesn't let on), and refuses him the job since he suspects that Snape is there on Voldy's orders. But he leaves options open, because he doesn't want Voldemort to kill Snape for failing to secure the job. Perhaps he says that he's already filled the post for that year, but cheerfully invites Snape to reapply in the future [21]. Voldy grudgingly gives Snape one more year's grace. Snape is shattered by everything that has happened, and feels very much alone, but he is also learning quickly. He knows that if he tries to openly leave Voldemort, he'll be dead just like Regulus, but his hatred of Voldy begins to consume him. He starts using his cunning, and manoeuvres Voldy into teaching him Occlumency [22], so that he might better fool Dumbledore. It is now that he starts taking spying seriously, studying it, learning to hide his grief and pain at the fate of his family and friend, learning through Legilimency how to tell when somebody's lying. It has suddenly become so much more than the game he used to play at school, hoping to get the marauders expelled. He is therefore in a much stronger position when he discovers, months later, that Voldemort would very much like to kill the Potters and their son who was born at the end of July, because of the *same* prophecy which got his own wife and child killed. It is now that Snape realises he has a chance to do something, a chance for some cunning revenge on Voldy for the deaths of his wife, his child, and his friend Regulus, and a chance to pay back that bloody James Potter by saving his life [23]. Moreover, if he's very *very* careful, and if he can trust DD 100%, he might even be able to get away without being killed (not that I think it matters much to Snape whether he lives or dies at this point ? he's realised that by joining Voldemort he has given up the possibility of an ordinary life; he may as well make his death mean something ? like Regulus did). Who could turn that chance down? Well, probably some people, but I reckon it would have seemed very attractive to Snape. The timing coincides with the application time for the DADA job [24], so he has cover for going to DD. DD then teaches Snape Occlumency too, and *that's* why Snape is so good, he was taught by both of the most powerful wizards alive. And the rest is history. Working in a school, watching children growing up would have been torture. Every time he looks at Harry, he sees James, the man who was allowed to die defending his family, while Snape was forced to survive his family and always be alone. And of course, he always wears black. Dungrollin A smattering of canon and comments it puts an interesting spin on: ******************** "A student has been taken by the monster. Right into the Chamberitself." Professor Flitwick let out a squeal. Professor Sprout clapped herhands over her mouth.Snape gripped the back of a chair very hard and said, "How can you be sure?"COS 16:not sure which page ******************** "That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important "- OotP 24: ******************** "The Dark Lord is very angry," repeated Snape quietly. "He failed to hear the prophecy. You know as well as I do, Narcissa, that he does not forgive easily."HBP 2:39 ******************** "You should be proud!" said Bellatrix ruthlessly. "If I had sons, I would be glad to give them up to the service of the Dark Lord!"Narcissa gave a little scream of despair and clutched at her long blonde hair. Snape stooped, seized her by the arms, lifted her up and steered her back on to the sofa. He then poured her more wine and forced the glass into her hand.- HBP 2:39 ******************** Endnotes ? HPbook Chapter:UK page number. [1] "Snape's what's happened! He told Voldemort about the prophecy, it was *him*, *he* listened outside the door, Trelawney told me!"- HBP 25:511. [2] "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned ?"- HBP 25:513. [3] "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies "- OotP 37:741 [4] "The odd thing, Harry," he said softly, "is that it may not have meant you at all. Sybill's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times. One, of course, was you. The other was Neville Longbottom."-OotP 37:742 [5] Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why - Red Nose Day Chat, BBC Online, March 12, 2001.http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2001/0301-bbc- rednose.htm MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?JKR: Yes, he has The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview, part 3, 16 July 2005http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet- anelli-3.htm [6] "Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?"- Sirius ? OotP 24:460 "Severus please you are, you have always been, Draco's favourite teacher you are Lucius's old friend " - Narcissa ? HBP 2:38 [7] "The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him. No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent after Neville's parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.- JKR website, rumours.http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/rumours_view.cfm?id=25 So more than just Voldemort and Snape know of the existence of the prophecy *before* Voldemort's fall and subsequent rebirth. We know that all the DEs who turned up at the ministry knew of the prophecy, though not necessarily their contents. But for one amongst them, it was not news, and it was *not* Bella. Who? [8] Happy Birthday Draco Malfoy, June 5th.- JKR's website [9] "[ ] he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely; I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death." - Sirius ? OotP 6:104 [10] "To the Dark LordI know I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more.R.A.B" - HBP 28:569. There's loads of evidence that R.A.B. is Regulus, I didn't want to believe it for a while, but if you don't by now, you have a serious conspiracy-theory addiction. Seek help. [11] "Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore [ ]" - Trelawney ? HBP 25:509. Waffling about coming the wrong way up the stairs? That's such a lame excuse it makes me think either that it's not really Snape ? someone else under Polyjuice, or that Snape was at this point rather wet- behind-the-ears, with none of his future smooth brilliance at lying and concealing his intentions. [12] "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily ? weak people, in other words ? they stand no chance against his powers!"- OotP 24:473. [13] "And they've found Igor Karkaroff's body in a shack up north. The DarkMark had been set over it - well, frankly, I'm surprised he stayedalive for even a year after deserting the Death Eaters; Sirius'sbrother Regulus only managed a few days as far as I can remember."- Lupin ? HBP 6:103. [14] How useful Snape could be Now what exactly was Voldemort using Snape for before he sent him to Hogwarts? Voldy's little Half-Blood Prince Well, he's talented at Potions and DADA, possibly at other subjects too. We have no further details, but it's plausible, possible and even probable that he was near the top of the class, and probably top amongst the Slytherins of his year. He certainly turned into a very capable adult. It's not an impossible case for Lucius to have made. [15] "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him."- Snape ? OotP 24:469. [16] Was Snape's wife important enough to be killed by Voldy himself? To be honest, I'm torn Given that Voldy killed the Potters and tried to kill Harry himself, I don't think he'd be likely to give it to a junior DE who might have cocked it up, but on the other hand, if he *really* thought baby Snape was The One, he'd have wanted to make a Horcrux, wouldn't he? Perhaps he did anyway. We don't know. [17] Bellatrix Lestrange, of course, did in Sirius, her cousin ? OotP 35:710; and Barty Crouch Jr. murdered his father ? GoF 35:599. Neither of them seemed particularly upset about it. [18] "I trust that you also noticed that Tom Riddle was already highly self-sufficient, secretive and, apparently, friendless? He did not want help or companionship on his trip to Diagon Alley. He preferred to operate alone. The adult Voldemort is the same. You will hear many of his Death Eaters claiming that they are in his confidence, that they alone are close to him, even understand him. They are deluded. Lord Voldemort has never had a friend, nor do I believe that he has ever wanted one."- Dumbledore ? HBP 13:259-60. [19] "[That] I don't trust you, Snape, as you very well know! [ ] A hundred reasons! [ ] Where to start! Where were you when the Dark Lord fell?"- Bellatrix Lestrange ? HBP 2:30. Actually, it seems that other DEs don't trust Snape either: "You can carry my words back to the others who whisper behind my back, and carry false tales of my treachery to the Dark Lord!" - Snape ? HBP 2:31. [20] Voldy aims to test Snape's loyalty in HBP, amongst other goals.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/148303 [21] Actually there is no direct canon for Snape having applied for the DADA job the year before he started teaching potions, all we have are two seemingly conflicting bits of canon: "Now how long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?" she [Umbridge] asked, her quill poised over her clipboard."Fourteen years," Snape replied. - OotP ? 17:323. "[ ] the Dark Lord is pleased that I never deserted my post: I had sixteen years of information on Dumbledore to give him when he returned [ ]"- Snape ? HBP 2:32. [22] We have no canon on whether it was Voldy or DD who taught Snape Occlumency, but given how good he is at it, I think most people agree that it wasn't some other random witch or wizard. Unless anyone's got an intriguing theory..? [23] "[ ]And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive.""What?""He saved his life.""What?""Yes..." said Dumbledore dreamily. "Funny, the way people's mindswork, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father'sdebt....I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because hefelt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go backto hating your father's memory in peace...."- PS 17:217. It's no fun hexing someone every time you see them if when it goes too far they do something so damn noble. Snape sees this very clearly as revenge for an insult. [24] The DADA job application. Ah yes. Well, we have no idea. Depends what happened to the last chap, I s'pose. But there's nothing in canon to rule it out. I think. From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 16:09:37 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:09:37 -0000 Subject: Will there be dragons? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" wrote: >> But are they to feature in book 7, that's the question. > Be nice if they did, but rumours (unsubstantiated? dunno) say not, > which would be a pity. Crispy wizards scattered around the fringes > of the Last Battle would add that little extra something, not so > much a blaze of glory as a blaze of gory. > Mmm! Yes please! >> Kneasy > Er yes or so it seems, new cover art on mugglenet is that Norbert? score one to the Kneasybeast Jo From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 17:23:51 2007 From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 17:23:51 -0000 Subject: Preparing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: wrote: > > Oh, and in one old post there was an aside that's niggled a > bit since re-reading - just who carved the serpent on the tap > in Myrtle's bathroom and why? > Sally can't have done it, which means that Tom found the > entrance without it and had no need for it thereafter, > not even while in possession of Ginny - unless he knew there'd > be someone, someday who would follow in his footsteps. > > Kneasy > CV: Furthermore, why was Tommy in the girl's loo anyway? Harry and Ron were there because Myrtle was. But what gave Tommy the idea that the gateway might be there? From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 17:37:55 2007 From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 17:37:55 -0000 Subject: The basilisk gateway, was: Preparing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Responding to my own post, but I had an idea that might answer both our questions. Kneasy: Who carved the serpent on the tap in Myrtle's bathroom and why? CV previously: Furthermore, why was Tommy in the girl's loo anyway? CV: Perhaps Merope opened the chamber and carved the handle? She could speak to the basilisk, would have been in the girl's loo and could have left a trail for young Tom to follow somehow? Maybe there was something in the locket? Does the carving match the snake on the locket? It would be typical of an adolescent girl to decorate something with a personal mark. (Given our new image of Sally at JKR's website, does it seem a bit odd that he would be wearing a locket? It looks so uncharacteristically gentle for the rest of him.) From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 18:45:05 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 18:45:05 -0000 Subject: The basilisk gateway, was: Preparing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "constancevigilance" wrote: > > CV: Perhaps Merope opened the chamber and carved the handle? She could > speak to the basilisk, would have been in the girl's loo and could have > left a trail for young Tom to follow somehow? Maybe there was something > in the locket? Does the carving match the snake on the locket? It would > be typical of an adolescent girl to decorate something with a personal > mark. > > (Given our new image of Sally at JKR's website, does it seem a bit odd > that he would be wearing a locket? It looks so uncharacteristically > gentle for the rest of him.) > You might have opened a can of worms (or Basilisks) here. Why restrict it to Merope? Why not the youngest of any generation of Sal's direct descendants? That way they'd each sort of be a true heir, at least until they were superceded by the next generation. Pop in, do a little light dusting, change the litter in the Basilisk tray... all part of the ancestor worship instilled in the bloodline. But Tom gets unlucky (or lucky, depending on your poinnt of view), 'cos old Sal is in, active and looking for a new partner now that Grindelwald has proved such a disappointment. The rest, as they say, is history. Harry, because of his cranial inclusion, can be counted as family, but he was lucky - Sal was out, still playing with Tom. Kneasy From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 19:31:53 2007 From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:31:53 -0000 Subject: The basilisk gateway, was: Preparing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kneasy, regarding the idea that there might have been other chamber openings: > > You might have opened a can of worms (or Basilisks) here. > Why restrict it to Merope? Why not the youngest of any generation > of Sal's direct descendants? That way they'd each sort of be a true > heir, at least until they were superceded by the next generation. > > Pop in, do a little light dusting, change the litter in the Basilisk tray... > all part of the ancestor worship instilled in the bloodline. > CV: I couldn't snip that last bit, it was too funny. All we know is that the Chamber hadn't been opened since Tommy did it and that the existence of it was generally not known. We also know that the existence of parselmouths was not widely known, either, so there were apparently lots of Sally's secrets that were well kept. In any case, we seem to have de-mystified the issue of where the carving might have come from. And it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Tommy learned about the location from a relative. > But Tom gets unlucky (or lucky, depending on your poinnt of view), > 'cos old Sal is in, active and looking for a new partner now that > Grindelwald has proved such a disappointment. > The rest, as they say, is history. > CV, confused here. You think Salizar had something to do with Grindelwald? I was just thinking that Grindelwald was a Nazi wizard who was sent to occupied Norway to open a magnet school for the Dark Arts. I thought that even before JKR said that the magical world was involved in WWII. In my thesis, Dumbledore used (or created) the lake portal to Durmstrang as part of that battle. Well, as you say. That's a whole basket of basilisks. CV From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 21:03:36 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 21:03:36 -0000 Subject: The basilisk gateway, was: Preparing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "constancevigilance" wrote: > > > > But Tom gets unlucky (or lucky, depending on your poinnt of view), > > 'cos old Sal is in, active and looking for a new partner now that > > Grindelwald has proved such a disappointment. > > The rest, as they say, is history. > > > > CV, confused here. You think Salizar had something to do with > Grindelwald? I was just thinking that Grindelwald was a Nazi wizard > who was sent to occupied Norway to open a magnet school for the Dark > Arts. I thought that even before JKR said that the magical world was > involved in WWII. In my thesis, Dumbledore used (or created) the lake > portal to Durmstrang as part of that battle. > Mmm. A previous idea - the evil that is Sally is recurrent, though with different hosts; the good/evil battle has continued for 1,000 years, with different incarnations of the leaders of both sides. (Why else would DD be associated with a phoenix?) Grindelwald.. Germanic name, but there again Voldemort is French... and while he was defeating Grindy, DD was teaching at Hogwarts - full-time too, not the lecture-free sinecure of headmastership. Still, I suppose he could have sneaked off early on Fridays. But one has to wonder just how 'German' Grindelwald was. Nothing to prevent him being a local lad with an ego that demanded a fancy (and fashionably timely) moniker to impress the gullible. Kneasy From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 21:48:25 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 21:48:25 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret Message-ID: Cross-filed from Main (All citation is to the U.S., Scholastic version of the books.) I would make the requisite facile apology for not having read every Petunia post on the list--in the off chance that I'm being repetitive- -but you'd know I wasn't sincere. I value my sanity too highly. If someone has said this all before, by all means send them my way. I might enjoy the conversation. Now to the problem at hand: What *is* our horse-faced housekeeper hiding under her apron? Even before the evidentiary enticements of OoP and HBP, readers wondered about Petunia. Would she be Rowling's magical late-bloomer? What was in the letter DD left with baby Harry, that would induce her to take him in, against her every inclination? As the series finale looms ever closer, these inferious questions rise again, compounded now by the revelations of Books 5 and 6. People are revisiting the matter of her magical potential--in spite of Rowling's pointed clarification that Petunia is 100% certified Muggle meat--not even allowed the proximity of Squibdom. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/news_view.cfm?id=80 Alternatively, there has been wild speculation that she is an (erstwhile?) member of the Order of the Phoenix, rearing the hateful brat in exchange for DD's keeping *that awful truth* from Vernon. St. Mungo forefend! Though I am long on record as encouraging readers to subject Ms. Rowling's utterances to the highest of critical scrutinies, I think we must content ourselves that Petunia hasn't so much as a magical corpuscle in her bony little body. And, far from being justified by the text, the idea that she ever served in Dumbledore's ranks requires readers to contort themselves in unseemly acts of analytical acrobatics. To the contrary, the evidence to date fairly shrieks that Auntie was a Death Eater. Consider the following: The meager *parenting* Petunia offers Harry is clearly gained by powerful coercion. Although our story is shot through with the thespian antics of espionage, Petunia's unconcealed loathing for Harry is no ruse. Not that Vernon needs any encouragement to be nasty, but it is just as clear that, for more than 15 years, Petunia has perpetrated myriad acts of cruelty, petty and otherwise, in satisfaction of her own base emotions. Nor is Petunia compelled by any fear of incurring Vernon's displeasure. It is She who has the final word in the Dursley household. >From Vernon's demonstrated dread of raising *the Potter issue* with his wife in Book 1 (5, 7), to his rapid acquiescence when she quashes his ouster of Harry in Book 5 (40), it is clear who calls the shots. In OoP, Dumbledore acknowledges that Petunia never loved Harry, and only took him in " grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly " (836). The only question, is *why* she performs this repugnant office. Clearly, DD has some hold over her, something stemming from the past, something powerful enough that it usually controls her--in equipoise against her deep hatred of the boy. And, when events finally threaten to break this established compliance, he can regain control with but the cryptic remonstration: "Remember my last!" (OoP 40). So just what *was* in that *last* little missive he sent to Petunia but not to Vernon? I assert that it was an explanation of how Dumbledore was aware, and had ample evidence to prove, that Petunia had collaborated with Lord Voldemort; that she was literally, or for all practical purposes, a Death Eater, and that, if she did not comply with his wish that she take young Harry in, he would see to it that she spend the rest of her days in Azkaban Fortress, under the watchful eyes of the dementors. Petunia's reaction to the news of the dementor attack in OoP is telling in this regard: "De-men-tors," said Harry slowly and clearly. "Two of them." "And what the ruddy hell are dementors?" [Vernon asked.] "They guard the wizard prison, Azkaban," said Aunt Petunia. (OoP 31) She didn't say, "Hang on, I've heard that word before..." or search her memory for so much a moment. Nor did she have any trouble instantly recalling the prison name. Rowling has Harry reflect--not only on the extraordinary occasion of Petunia's reference to things wizardly, but: "He was astonished that she had remembered this scrap of information about the magical world for so long " (OoP 32). In fact, she more than *remembered* this piece of trivia, it flew out of her lips before she could slap her hand over her mouth. Nor can we explain her memory as a function of the dementor's inherent ghastliness, for in this regard, Petunia knows too little. While indicating exactly where they work, she has no idea of their special horrors. It is not until *after* Harry explains that dementors not only suck "all the happiness" out of you, but can also "suck the soul out of your mouth" (OoP 34) that Petunia screams and starts shaking Dudley as if hoping to still "hear his soul rattling around inside him" (34). Petunia knows what dementors are because of their relation to Azkaban, and not the other way round. In contrast to her fluid blurt of information, Petunia then *jerkily* claims that her familiarity arises from hearing "that awful boy-- telling *her* about them--years ago" (OoP 32). Harry assumes she is referring to his parents--maybe so. She has already acknowledged, back in the hut on the rock, that Lily exposed her both to bits of the magical world, and to James. Claiming them as her source of information is the best spin she could possibly put on her curious announcement. Damage control. But, that would mean that she overheard these, to an innocent Petunia, necessarily irrelevant factoids, at a minimum, 14 years earlier (before GH). Likely even more than that. Thus, the reader is left with two possibilities: either Rowling is trying to demonstrate that Auntie has a mind like a steel trap, or the truth--regarding Petunia's heightened awareness of Azkaban--lies elsewhere. The force of implication is that Azkaban is a matter of intense personal interest to Petunia; an interest that has persisted-- resulting in her frequent review of the subject--lo, these past 14 years. Sans doute, Petunia *has* brooded about Azkaban, and it's dolorous guards, every single day, whenever she feels the impulse to rid herself of Harry. The encouragement that makes her grit her teeth and trudge on, is the prospect of wasting her exemplary housekeeping talents scrubbing the grout in that wretched wizarding goal, forevermore. This explains Dumbledore's somewhat superfluous explanation to young Riddle, that by entering the magical world, Riddle subjects himself to wizarding law (HBP 273). No rational reader would have felt a draft if DD had been less specific. We have no reason to challenge the Wizarding World's right to punish RiddleMort. And, though Riddle was undoubtedly a very bad boy, he wasn't stupid enough--a fortiori after DD demonstrated a preternatural awareness, and disapproval, of Riddle's orphanly misdeeds--to screw the pooch by indiscretion in his subsequent schoolboy crimes, which had risen to multiple homicides before graduation. It's not so much that it was *wrong* to focus on the wizarding social contract, as it was over abundant. It smacks of the foundational information Rowling needed to lay in Book 5, to justify events to be revealed in Book 7. ("You need what's in there [OoP] if I'm going to play fair for the reader in the resolution in book seven." Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview, Part II. http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705- tlc_mugglenet-anelli-2.htm ) Muggle or no, if Petunia intruded into the WW in service of Lord Voldemort, she brought herself within the jurisdiction of the MoM, and remains subject to imprisonment in Azkaban. The idea of Muggles in wizarding institutions is also raised where, in Chapter 22, we find that two Muggles are in St. Mungo's for emergency services, thanks to Willy Windershins's biting doorknobs (OoP 490). These less radical examples serve the same end: to bring the upcoming notion, of Petunia in Azkaban, within fair bounds. Additionally, Rowling tells us that Muggle-borns are as bad as Muggles. "As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle." (J.K. Rowling Official Site, F.A.Q. section. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=58 ). Yet, she also tells us that Muggle-borns can be Death Eaters * in rare circumstances* (Edinburgh Book Festival, Sunday, August 15, 2004. http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2004/0804-ebf.htm ) The logic follows that, in rare circumstances, a Muggle can be a Death Eater, too. So far, we have seen no such example. Now this distillation sits among us, all loaded and ready, the way Chekhov liked it. Then to, let us reconsider Rowling's "indiscretion" from her 2004 News item, more fulsomely: Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet. (J.K. Rowling Official Site: News August 15, 2004 http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/news_view.cfm?id=80 ) If Petunia is a consummate Muggle--which I don't doubt--and not a Squib at all, then why is *squib* a *very good guess?* I'll tell you why: because like a Squib, Death Eater Petunia has lurked on the threshold of the magical world. Recall Rowling's description of a Squib's lot: "Squibs are often doomed to a rather sad kind of half-life they will be exposed to, if not immersed in, the wizarding community, but can never truly join it. Sometimes they find a way to fit; Filch has carved himself a niche at Hogwarts and Arabella Figg operates as Dumbledore's liaison between the magical and Muggle worlds. (J. K. Rowling Official Site: Extra Stuff http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=19 ) Likewise, DE!Petunia carved herself a niche in the periphery of the magical world, as a Muggle-laison and operative for Voldemort. While not a Squib, herself, Petunia has behaved in a squibish manner; ergo, squib is a toasty warm guess. The earlier relationship with our villain also explains why Petunia is the only one in the kitchen, besides Harry, who has "an inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean" (OoP 38). And she is demonstrably terrified. Once a DE, always a DE--or exit feet first. It's a marvelous Rock and a Hard Place: Dumbledore will slip her a one-way ticket to Azkaban if she reneges on the deal, and Voldemort will whack her for flipping sides. With regard to Petunia, what more could a reader ask for? Those who imagine that her odd *flush* in HBP bespeaks a sudden flood of maternal feelings for our hero should remove the rosy specs and review, not only the long history of maltreatment rained on Harry through the years, but the fact that Petunia has just been called an abusive and deplorable parent--in regard to both Harry and Dudley-- and that DD's *request* of another (especially dangerous) year's compliance tacitly raises her guilt, obligation, and penalty for lapse, right there in the sanctity of her own living room. Anger and humiliation are two time-honored reasons for going red in the face, and much more in keeping with the course of events. Additionally, Petunia having such a change of heart would be a massive step toward redemption. Rowling doesn't seem to want to redeem the Dursleys: 'I like torturing them,' said Rowling. 'You should keep an eye on Dudley. It's probably too late for Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon. (Cinescape interview, 16 November 2000: http://www.accio- quote.org/articles/2000/1100-cinescape-garcia2.htm ) Okay, you say. That was 2000, this is 2007, and maybe Rowling changed her mind. Will the old girl get the last minute *reprieve?* Odds are against it. Ambiguity has not been organically *built* into Petunia's behavior to support a *justified* alternative view. The force of the textual evidence is that she took Harry in under compulsion and has hated every minute of it. In OoP, Rowling interjects the howler immediately before Petunia orders Vernon to let Harry stay. This is appropriate technique: we are given a credible motivational basis to explain why Petunia would do such a *nice* thing. Therefore, her character isn't changed in respect to her long- standing loathing for Harry; indeed, we are shown that she must be threatened into compliance with her earlier agreement. (And, of course, Harry is treated, thereafter, as if Number 4 were his prison.) Between this series-consistent behavior and her hot cheeks in HBP we are given no causal basis, whatsoever, to explain a change in character, let alone such a profound one as *motherly feelings* would entail. Furthermore, redemption asks that her past sins not be *too* egregious (say, helping to axe Lily), yet, if they do not warrant dire punishment, we have no plausible explanation for her fixation with Azkaban, and so, no inducement sufficient to compel to her to act against her nature, by taking Harry in. In short, it would make a hash of things. The other way round is so much more felicitous. Why not squash her like a bug, and enjoy it? Then there is the matter of her pathological cleaning obsession. Lady Macbeth springs to mind: she rubs and rubs (in this case the kitchen surfaces) but the spot remains. Or should we say the mark? Does Petunia have some interesting body art on her left forearm? Possibly. For all we know she eschews short-sleeved cocktail dresses. Alternatively, DD might have cleaned her up. Wouldn't do to excite young Harry, prematurely. But I think the better answer is that she never had the Dark Mark, regardless of her affiliation with Voldemort. After all, the Dark Mark is used to call the Death Eaters to their Master's side. Petunia couldn't apparate, and Voldemort would hardly wait around while she hopped a bus. There is just no point in branding her with a summoning device. Even if she made it to a meeting, she would have caused a furor among the blood-elect, who would never have tolerated a Muggle presence in the circle of brotherhood. Voldemort could have no possible interest in sowing such unrest. Nor would he wish to expose his followers or meeting places to a pariah's scrutiny. More likely he dealt with her at a long arm's length, holding his nose the whole while. Finally, Voldemort cares about symbolism. Petunia may have been useful, but he wouldn't want his elite identifier gracing her foul Muggle hide. No, Petunia doesn't wear a physical Dark Mark. Still, her perpetual scouring is the external symptom of an inner mark. Her inept efforts to erase an interior filth that soap can't touch: the guilty residue of her transgressions. And so we see the perfectly charming noose of Petunia's plot arc, draw to a close. Some remaining questions of interest are: What exactly did Petunia do for Voldemort? Did she play a role in Godric's Hollow? Will she, in a desperate attempt to re-ingratiate herself, turn on Harry when Voldemort comes knocking? (Especially if she's learned that Dumbledore is defunct?) Talisman, saying, let's have her go out after a *last vile move* that sets up the delightfully thorough smack down. From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 22:20:56 2007 From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 22:20:56 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- Talisman proposes a lot of very interesting stuff about Petunia: > > > DE!Petunia carved herself a niche in the periphery of the > magical world, as a Muggle-laison and operative for Voldemort. > > While not a Squib, herself, Petunia has behaved in a squibish manner; > ergo, squib is a toasty warm guess. > > The earlier relationship with our villain also explains why Petunia > is the only one in the kitchen, besides Harry, who has "an inkling of > what Lord Voldemort being back might mean" (OoP 38). > > And she is demonstrably terrified. > > Once a DE, always a DE--or exit feet first. > CV: I'd like to add a bit more wood to the fire here. Waaaay back in 2003, when I first joined the main group, I attempted to make my Very First (moderated) post. I proposed that Petunia and Snape have some history. If you read their descriptions, they resemble each other physically. They both are observant - Petunia is described as nosy, while Snape always seems to show up whenever mischief is being done. Both loathe Harry. Both have a relationship with Lily (although that wasn't part of my 2003 post because we didn't know that yet). To this day, the Petunia/Severus ship is the only ship I sail. In every book, I've been expecting to see Vernon pop something and be carried out of the series to be eventually replaced by Petunia's one true love, that "other" boy. Your idea that Petunia could be a DE agrees well with mine that she was the one by whom Snape was once loved. It gives her a reason to join the DE's and a reason to fear Voldy's return. It would explain how she knows of the dementors and how she became acquainted with Dumbledore. The protection of the Dursley home could well be protecting her as well. You never read my post about this on the main list? That's because it was rejected by the mods. The reason given? "Too fanciful." I can only assume my elf was a Snapefan. Well, there you go. CV From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 8 23:46:31 2007 From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 23:46:31 -0000 Subject: Will there be dragons? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder if the dragon (Norbert?) the trio is riding on is guarding the treasure seen on the uk book 7 cover. There seems to be alot of red and orrange outside the opening they are falling out of, and said trio looks to have burn marks on the arms and faces.....hmmmmm Hats off the Kneasy! Fran --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" > wrote: > >> But are they to feature in book 7, that's the question. > > Be nice if they did, but rumours (unsubstantiated? dunno) say not, > > which would be a pity. Crispy wizards scattered around the fringes > > of the Last Battle would add that little extra something, not so > > much a blaze of glory as a blaze of gory. > > Mmm! Yes please! > >> Kneasy > > > Er yes or so it seems, new cover art on mugglenet is that Norbert? > > score one to the Kneasybeast > > Jo > From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 02:27:19 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 02:27:19 -0000 Subject: Will there be dragons? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" wrote: > > I wonder if the dragon (Norbert?) the trio is riding on is guarding the > treasure seen on the uk book 7 cover. Looks like an Antipodean Opaleye, if Newt Scamander knows his business. And a cheerful old bugger, at that. (The Dragon that is.) T From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 08:48:32 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:48:32 -0000 Subject: Will there be dragons? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" wrote: > > I wonder if the dragon (Norbert?) the trio is riding on is guarding the > treasure seen on the uk book 7 cover. There seems to be alot of red > and orrange outside the opening they are falling out of, and said trio > looks to have burn marks on the arms and faces.....hmmmmm > Hats off the Kneasy! > Shucks. T'warn't nothin', more a hope than a prediction. Can't have a proper finale without dragons, t'aint right. Besides, they're permanently pissed-off vicious killers, just the sort of beastie to counter any outbreaks of fluffiness. (Memo: must get one for the front gate of Schloss Kneasy to see off unwanted visitors - i.e. all of 'em. Current guardian (The Hound from Hell) spends most of her time sleeping, pinching my dinner and chewing books - 'cept when out on walkies, when any non-canine furry creature is considered a buckshee appetiser prior to the next raid on my kitchen.) Kneasy From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 08:57:17 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:57:17 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: >> Now to the problem at hand: > > What *is* our horse-faced housekeeper hiding under her apron? > > Talisman, saying, let's have her go out after a *last vile move* that > sets up the delightfully thorough smack down. What is the hold either Puppetmaster!DD or Voldemort could have over Petunia? I'm increasingly of the opinion that Dudley is a wizard, not a particularly powerful one but magical none the less. As Aunt Marge points out bad blood most often comes from the maternal line. Why does Petunia indulge Dudley, constantly feeding him, keeping him mute and placid? Because anger is one of the triggers which releases magical ability as Hagrid says to Harry in PS. Why might she be afraid of Azkeban? Perhaps someone has told her that is the destination of rogue wizards, if she is to control Dudley she needs a powerful wizard to supress his latent ability, now that's a contract I can see Petunia signing willingly. But with whom? Regards Jo From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 14:24:49 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 14:24:49 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: Here's a pleasant surprise; an old idea resurrected for re-furbishment by Dung. Now, what to make of it? > > The premise is that Snape had a wife and/or child who was/were > murdered by Voldemort, and that is the reason he returned to the good > side, and the reason that he wears nothing but black. I should > mention that Kneasy's post was very much more like Out-For-Himself! > Snape, whereas this version is decidedly DDM (I can't help it, you > know). > The two (OFH and DDM) needn't necessarily be mutually exclusive. If Sevvy is bent on revenge then his best option is to throw in his lot with DD. And since DD is the man with the plan, he'd be a bit foolish not to follow DD's lead. Sevvy wants Voldy brought down, but he can't do it himself - ergo co-operate with the man that can. > The two major bits of relevant canon we were given in HBP are: > 1. Snape was the eavesdropper.[1] Eavesdropper!Snape.... why does that cause me to shuffle in my seat? Yes, from HBP it does read as cut-and-dried, but it isn't really compatible with a few other bits and bobs. 1. OoP - DD plays with his Pensieve, up pops Sybill and does her party piece - uninterrupted. No break for Snapey bursting in after the first few lines, no extraneous sound-track noises impinging on her presentation. I suppose DD could have done a bit of memory splicing, but still.... 2. If she really had been in a prophetic trance, would she remember an interruption? Unlikely, given how she behaved during her second recital in PoA. Which, if she's not spinning an alcohol-flavoured tale for Harry in HBP means either she has an implanted false memory (is this possible?) or she wasn't in a genuine trance. Aha! Puppetmaster!DD setting the stage for what will be the Voldy trap? In which case having a Voldy hench-wizard around the place to run to his boss with exciting news would be a real bonus. > 2. When Snape realised how Voldemort was interpreting the prophecy, > his remorse made him 'return' to the good guys' table.[2] > OK, I'm prejudiced, I admit it. But whenever DD starts an information drop to Harry with "I believe..." then it's time to start looking for the wool he's about to pull over Harry's eyes. IMO "I believe" means "I want you to believe" which is not the same thing at all. He did the same in PS/SS with "I do believe he [Snape] worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits." Yeah. Right. 'Course he did. > Let's begin by trying to put ourselves in Voldy's shoes. How would he > interpret the scrap of prophecy which Snape brought him? [3] The > thrice-defied part, in particular. [...] that it applied > to James and Lily and Frank and Alice, [...] but it wouldn't > necessarily have been immediately obvious to Voldemort at the time, > at least six months before Harry was born. > > Just try to imagine for a moment that you're a power-hungry psychotic > (easier for some than others) and someone has just told you a kid > with the clout to pulp you is going to be born; you'd start getting > twitchy around *any* pregnant women, wouldn't you? Oh, and you'd > utterly forbid the minion who brought you the news to tell anybody > else. > > So let's say that it's about now that Snape's wife [5] discovers that > she is pregnant. Narcissa's pregnant too! How nice. Snape works out > immediately that both children are due at the end of July. Do we know exactly when Sybill made her pronouncement? I don't think we do, do we? There's a hint from DD in OoP when he says "Sixteen years ago.." he held the interviews, followed closely by "... was born at the end of July nearly sixteen years ago ..." How much difference between the two events? One month? Two? More? It sort of has implications for your suppositions. Note: DD seems to contradict the accepted timeline that the interviews were held in 1979 [see Lexicon], whereas the difference implied by "nearly" is only a few months at most, meaning they occurred in 1980. Is this a known Flint/Rowling mathematical cock-up that has since been sorted without my noticing? Is DD being a bit sloppy with his dates? Or is he accurate? The whole timeline of the Herod!Voldy process is puzzling. Yes, he learns that in July will be born the sprog who'll put a crimp in his ambitions, yet he apparently takes no action for 15 months after the event. Why? Now it may be a coincidence, but he doesn't spring into belated Potter paedicide mode until after Sevvy has abandoned him and joined the Order. But for Blackwidower to be valid, his offcut had to have been killed before he swapped sides yet had to have been old enough to be depicted as 'a small boy', (not a baby) in the memory flash. So to work, Snape!Son would probably have to have been born at least 6 months before Harry. Which would suggest that a July-born Snape!Son theory (therefore potentially Voldy's!Bane, so I'd better knock him off, signed Voldy) might have a glitch. Assuming I'm correct, any chance you can nudge it back on track? In the Mk I version the reason why Snape's family got the bullet was left open (had difficulty in coming up with a credible scenario that could be tied to existing canon snippets), though I think it'd be more likely that it was Mrs Snape that upset Voldy rather than Sevvy himself. If it had been Snape at fault he'd have been looking at pretty green lights - after all, Voldy had no need for Snape, he was winning easily enough. Though I suppose if one is *really* inventive and nasty with it, it's possible to postulate that in payment for some unknown misdemeanor Voldy might Imperio! Sevvy and make him kill his own family. Nice. It'd certainly explain Sevvy's remorse. In truth, the original Blackwidower/Snape!Son doesn't necessarily require that that they be killed, just that they die in circumstances where Sevvy can credibly hold Voldy responsible. But that's not so Bangy. Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 16:47:27 2007 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:47:27 -0000 Subject: OT: Spato-meter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > > I find it offensive that you've dragged Wendy into this, whoever she > may be. > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb > Carolyn: There has been a continuing discussion on the other board about the Spat-o-meter, and thought you might enjoy a further contribution: .. we have a "Flounce Room" - specifically for those who wish to leave. It has two doors, one reinforced, for the door slamming inevitably involved in a big loss of temper and storming out, and a revolving one, for those who wish to take a temporary flounce and be allowed back in when they're feeling better. One can choose which door to use according to how injured one feels. It works well. ..sorry, you may now return to your normal programming. Will go and read up on black widowers.. From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 17:27:01 2007 From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:27:01 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kneasy: > Eavesdropper!Snape.... why does that cause me to shuffle in my seat? > Yes, from HBP it does read as cut-and-dried, but it isn't really > compatible with a few other bits and bobs. > > 1. OoP - DD plays with his Pensieve, up pops Sybill and does her > party piece - uninterrupted. No break for Snapey bursting in after > the first few lines, no extraneous sound-track noises impinging on > her presentation. > I suppose DD could have done a bit of memory splicing, but still.... > > 2. If she really had been in a prophetic trance, would she remember > an interruption? Unlikely, given how she behaved during her second > recital in PoA. > Dung: Weeeell DD hears a commotion in the middle of the prophecy and quickly seals the door with a silencing charm, at the end of the prophecy he lifts it, and hears a loud altercation between Aberforth and Snape going on outside the doorway, and Abe bursts in holding Snape by the ear. I know it's not very interesting, but I can't think of a good reason for there to be something amiss here, unless it's to set up NeverReallyWasADeathEater!Snape, which takes *all* the fun out of it for me. Kneasy: > Do we know exactly when Sybill made her pronouncement? > I don't think we do, do we? > There's a hint from DD in OoP when he says "Sixteen years ago.." he > held the interviews, followed closely by "... was born at the end of July nearly sixteen years ago ..." > How much difference between the two events? One month? Two? > More? > It sort of has implications for your suppositions. > > Note: DD seems to contradict the accepted timeline that the > interviews were held in 1979 [see Lexicon], whereas the difference > implied by "nearly" is only a few months at most, meaning they > occurred in 1980. Is this a known Flint/Rowling mathematical cock-up > that has since been sorted without my noticing? Is DD being a bit > sloppy with his dates? Or is he accurate? > > The whole timeline of the Herod!Voldy process is puzzling. > Yes, he learns that in July will be born the sprog who'll put a crimp > in his ambitions, yet he apparently takes no action for 15 months after > the event. > Why? Dung: We've got 1. The prophecy was delivered anything up to half a year before Harry was born. "On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head inn." - OotP ch37 UK p740. A cold, wet night strongly suggests winter, but you know what Scotland's like "Now," said Umbridge, looking up at Trelawney, "you've been in this post how long, exactly?" [ ] "Nearly sixteen years." Which, given that this is at the beginning of the autumn term, suggests that she was hired somewhere around Christmas. 2. Regulus died some time in the year that Harry was born. "Sirius jabbed a finger at the very bottom of the tree, at the name `Regulus Black'. A date of death (some fifteen years previously) followed the date of birth." - OotP ch6 UK p 104 3. We don't know when Snape started working at Hogwarts. `"Now how long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?" she asked, her quill poised over her clipboard. "Fourteen years," Snape replied. His expression was unfathomable.' - OotP ch 17 UK p 323. and "Hardly," said Snape, "although the Dark Lord is pleased that I never deserted my post: I had sixteen years of information on Dumbledore to give him when he returned " - HBP ch2 UK p 32. In the first quote he makes it sound as though he's just started his fifteenth year of teaching, but in the second quote, less than a year later, he claims an extra year of information, one in which he wasn't officially on the Hogwarts staff, and so could not admit to Umbridge. Did he disguise himself and teach DADA for a year, before being outed through the curse, swapping sides, dumping the disguise and taking the potions position as himself? I think that could work, particularly if his first mission was to discover the names of the magical babies born at the end of July so that Voldy could make a little list. Snape peeks at the book with the magic quill and DD catches him looking, stricken, at the crossed-off name of his own son. DD gets the story out of him, and makes him do the right thing (i.e. not tell Voldy that there are two potential prophecy boys), and start spying for the Order, and thus seek revenge. He and DD cook up a story that Voldy will believe (that Snape failed to get the names, but managed to convince DD that he'll turn double-agent), and Snape takes up the potions position, thus relieving himself of the DADA curse, (it'd be quite fun if he'd had to suffer it twice). That's why it took Voldy so long to discover the Potters. Perhaps. Alternatively herself still can't perform simple mathematical tasks. But anyway, to make it all fit: 1. The prophecy must be given to Voldemort before Snape knows that it applies to his own offspring, or before it occurs to him that it possibly could (since he hasn't yet defied Voldy), which is just about plausible if it happened at Christmas. 2. Snape is caught helping Reg at some point during the year the child (and Draco and Harry and Neville) were, or would have been born. 3. Voldy finds out about the kid, about Lucius also knowing the prophecy, and about helping Reg any time before say, a month prior to GH. (Though I like Snape having the extra year between the murder of his family and turning to DD, to give him time to seethe and rankle and scheme.) Kneasy: > But for Blackwidower to be valid, his offcut had to have been killed > before he swapped sides yet had to have been old enough to be > depicted as 'a small boy', (not a baby) in the memory flash. > So to work, Snape!Son would probably have to have been born at > least 6 months before Harry. > Which would suggest that a July-born Snape!Son theory (therefore > potentially Voldy's!Bane, so I'd better knock him off, signed Voldy) > might have a glitch. > Assuming I'm correct, any chance you can nudge it back on track? Dung: Ah. I hadn't actually tied in Snape's memory in the occlumency lessons to this, but now I come to think of it, it was the original prompt for the theory, wasn't it? Damn. Hang on. ::muted sounds of swearing as books are hurled across the room:: It could work if Voldy didn't detect Snape's hand in helping Regulus until a while afterwards. The latest it could happen anyway would be say, a month before Harry was targeted, we need time for Snape to turn to DD, and spy at great personal risk for a bit before GH. Then we're talking about a 14 month-old baby Snape. 14 month-olds look pretty much like babies, too, rather than `small boys'. I'm not too sure that it's terminal for my version, though. It, um, *could* actually have been a memory of Eileen and Tobias... > In truth, the original Blackwidower/Snape!Son doesn't necessarily > require that that they be killed, just that they die in circumstances > where Sevvy can credibly hold Voldy responsible. > But that's not so Bangy. And I do like the light it throws on Snape telling Harry that he is not special when we *know* he knows at least the first bit of the prophecy. Not to mention tying up the Lucius connection. Dung From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 19:16:28 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:16:28 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > > Dung: > Weeeell DD hears a commotion in the middle of the prophecy and > quickly seals the door with a silencing charm, at the end of the > prophecy he lifts it, and hears a loud altercation between Aberforth > and Snape going on outside the doorway, and Abe bursts in holding > Snape by the ear. > > I know it's not very interesting, but I can't think of a good reason > for there to be something amiss here, unless it's to set up > NeverReallyWasADeathEater!Snape, which takes *all* the fun out of it > for me. > As Talleyrand admonished Tsar Alexander: "Treason, Your Majesty, is often a matter of dates." We sort of know when he 'came back' but we don't know when he 'went over'. Now suppose that at the interview he wasn't a DE, that it was the passing of this little gem of information on to Voldy that got him promoted to the elite band of brothers that are the DEs - as a reward. Mind you, it'd be the sort of offer he wouldn't dare refuse, I think. Further suppose that he wanders back to chez Snape pleased as Punch about his enhanced career prospects - and the missus hates the idea. She tells him so - every day for the next X months; just won't shut up about it. Voldy decides that this pestilential dissenter ought to be silenced, she's getting on his nerves and the lads are getting twitchy. Zap! All is blissful silence, what a relief - until the remorse sets in with Sevvy. Works, do you think? > > Dung: > We've got > > 1. The prophecy was delivered anything up to half a year before Harry > was born. > "On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at > the Hog's Head inn." > - OotP ch37 UK p740. Not happy with this. I was until this morning when I was checking canon about Syb's Pensieve turn, and then what DD says with the 'nearly' hit me. Before then I'd sort of assumed that it had happened Sept/Oct/Nov '79, more or less in agreement with the Lexicon - but now... I don't know. The gap could be anywhere between 9 months and 1 month. Nine is OK, no problem; a gap of one sends most of your theory down the tubes, 'cos Draino would already have been born. Need some sort of confirmation from somewhere. > > A cold, wet night strongly suggests winter, but you know what > Scotland's like > Wasn't this was before global warming? Could be Mid-Summers Eve, then. > Kneasy: > > But for Blackwidower to be valid, his offcut had to have been > killed > > before he swapped sides yet had to have been old enough to be > > depicted as 'a small boy', (not a baby) in the memory flash. > > So to work, Snape!Son would probably have to have been born at > > least 6 months before Harry. > > Which would suggest that a July-born Snape!Son theory (therefore > > potentially Voldy's!Bane, so I'd better knock him off, signed > Voldy) > > might have a glitch. > > Assuming I'm correct, any chance you can nudge it back on track? > > Dung: > Ah. I hadn't actually tied in Snape's memory in the occlumency > lessons to this, but now I come to think of it, it was the original > prompt for the theory, wasn't it? Damn. Hang on. > > ::muted sounds of swearing as books are hurled across the room:: > > It could work if Voldy didn't detect Snape's hand in helping Regulus > until a while afterwards. The latest it could happen anyway would be > say, a month before Harry was targeted, we need time for Snape to > turn to DD, and spy at great personal risk for a bit before GH. Then > we're talking about a 14 month-old baby Snape. 14 month-olds look > pretty much like babies, too, rather than `small boys'. > "But... But..." expostulated a gob-smacked Kneasy, If Snape has already turned to DD (that was months before GH), and NailedSnape!Son hasn't happened yet, then the whole raison d'etre for Blackwidower/Snape!Son is up the pictures. Can't have that. Dearie me, no. One of me favourite theories rip't untimely from the womb, t'ain't right... mutter...mutter... Your theory needs some work, I think. Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 21:02:59 2007 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:02:59 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret: But what about the loot?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > Petunia's reaction to the news of the dementor attack in OoP is > telling in this regard: > > "De-men-tors," said Harry slowly and clearly. "Two of them." > "And what the ruddy hell are dementors?" [Vernon asked.] > "They guard the wizard prison, Azkaban," said Aunt Petunia. (OoP 31) > > She didn't say, "Hang on, I've heard that word before..." or search > her memory for so much a moment. Nor did she have any trouble > instantly recalling the prison name. > > Rowling has Harry reflect--not only on the extraordinary occasion of > Petunia's reference to things wizardly, but: > "He was astonished that she had remembered this scrap of information > about the magical world for so long " (OoP 32). > > In fact, she more than *remembered* this piece of trivia, it flew out of her lips before she could slap her hand over her mouth. > > In contrast to her fluid blurt of information, Petunia then *jerkily* claims that her familiarity arises from hearing "that awful boy-- telling *her* about them--years ago" (OoP 32). > > Harry assumes she is referring to his parents--maybe so. She has > already acknowledged, back in the hut on the rock, that Lily exposed > her both to bits of the magical world, and to James. Claiming them as her source of information is the best spin she could possibly put on her curious announcement. Damage control. > > Then to, let us reconsider Rowling's "indiscretion" from her 2004 > News item, more fulsomely: > > Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? > Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a > Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the > other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little > bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out > what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. > Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet. > (J.K. Rowling Official Site: News August 15, 2004 > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/news_view.cfm?id=80 ) > > > Recall Rowling's description of a Squib's lot: > > "Squibs are often doomed to a rather sad kind of half-life they > will be exposed to, if not immersed in, the wizarding community, but > can never truly join it. Sometimes they find a way to fit; Filch has > carved himself a niche at Hogwarts and Arabella Figg operates as > Dumbledore's liaison between the magical and Muggle worlds. > (J. K. Rowling Official Site: Extra Stuff > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=19 ) > > While not a Squib, herself, Petunia has behaved in a squibish manner; ergo, squib is a toasty warm guess. > Carolyn: Have clipped together this useful set of tidbits reminding us just how much Aunt P knew about the WW. What has just hit me rather forcibly is that if she did know, then why the heck didn't she demand some of Harry's cash from Gringotts? a) She MUST have known about the wizard bank because her sister would have needed to go there to get money changed with their parents, just like the Grangers did. It would have been talked about at home. b) She MUST have known that James came from quite a wealthy family. All very well for Vernon to think him a layabout unemployed, but she would have known better. Obviously we don't know when their parents died, but it is not unreasonable to imagine that they were alive long enough to go to the Potter's wedding - Lily married very young. The parents would have noticed a slap-up do and met James' parents. c) Even though she would not have known how much Harry inherited, surely she would have asked the question of DD at some point? Carolyn ..fascinated at the detail that jumps at you as you re-read for the umpteenth time. From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 22:45:28 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:45:28 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret: But what about the loot?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" wrote: > Carolyn: > Have clipped together this useful set of tidbits reminding us just > how much Aunt P knew about the WW. What has just hit me rather > forcibly is that if she did know, then why the heck didn't she demand > some of Harry's cash from Gringotts? Our knowledge of the materially inclined foster-family, coupled with an understanding of human nature, would be enough, in itself, to support your argument. But we don't have to get by on so lean a diet. We are encouraged even further by our Author, who has Harry muse on just this question when he first finds his fortune at Gringotts: "All Harry's--it was incredible. The Dursleys couldn't have known about this or they'd have it faster than blinking. How often had they complained how much Harry had cost them to keep? And all the time there had been a small fortune belonging to him, buried deep under London"(PS/SS US 75). Or in HBP: "He's been left a house?" said Uncle Vernon greedily..." (US 49). And I think most readers readily assume that, in addition to misrepresenting the nature of their demise, Petunia has been knowingly mischaracterizing the nature of the Potter parents' socioeconomic circumstances. In short, as you say, she knows there is loot. Your expectation that she would also know about Gringotts is certainly justified. My question is: Demand of whom? She would certainly need wizard assistance to get at any loot in Gringotts, and the two wizards calling the shots in this scenario are ultimately Dumbledore and Voldemort. I wouldn't be phased at all to discover that she had demanded..ok, asked..Voldemort to give her the Potter fortune as part of the renumeration for her services; especially where that assistance played a role in the Godric's Hollow hit. Whether he would have given her the goods, or intended to have her snuffed as part of the post-op mop up, is another matter. But that she would have *demanded* it seems quite reasonable. Unfortunately for Petunia, the purge was bungled. Instead of a sack of loot, she got a bundle of..er..joy. In the gray light of dawn, Dumbledore was the one calling the shots. Missives are sent. Petunia is fingered and has a chance to review the full color enclosures of Azkaban Fortress. Sitting there,in the light of Dumbledore's penetrating glare, with Lily's blood dripping from her fingers, I don't really see her countering his *do it or else* with a financial ultimatum. Additionally, even if she hadn't initially known of the Potter fortune in Gringotts, by now she should have suspected. It has to be pretty clear to her that Harry has been getting money from somewhere, all these years. Even if she thought Dumbledore, or other wizards, were supporting Harry during the ten months of the year he spends in the WW, she could have requested renumeration from these sources, were she in any position to make demands. The whole point is she took Harry in because she *had* to. She had to, and her whole payment is that--thus far--she has remained out of Azkaban. I'm sure the deal provides that her debt will be paid--no more threat of Azkaban--if she can just stick it out through the last year of Harry's minority. So close, so close....and yet... Alas, Voldemort is back. And not with the cash. Far from making any demands, at this point she'll be lucky to escape with her skin. But we can't let that happen, now can we? Talisman From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 23:28:20 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 23:28:20 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "constancevigilance" wrote: > > CV: I'd like to add a bit more wood to the fire here. > > Waaaay back in 2003, when I first joined the main group, I >attempted > to make my Very First (moderated) post. I proposed that Petunia and > Snape have some history. If you read their descriptions, they > resemble each other physically. Talisman--feathers ruffled up to her eyeballs, snorts: Severus does NOT have a face like a horse!!!!! A nose like an eagle, sure. A noble profile fit for Roman coinage: mais oui! Resemble that faded blonde Dobbin with watery blue blinkers--NEVAH! >They both are observant - Petunia is > described as nosy, while Snape always seems to show up whenever > mischief is being done. Snape's where he ought to be, Petunia's just a pest. So there. :P >Both loathe Harry. Oh, we'll just have to see about that.... >Both have a relationship > with Lily (although that wasn't part of my 2003 post because we > didn't know that yet). Possibly of exceedingly different natures. > To this day, the Petunia/Severus ship is the only ship I sail. In > every book, I've been expecting to see Vernon pop something and be > carried out of the series to be eventually replaced by Petunia's >one true love, that "other" boy. ARGHHHHH. It's not that the mind hasn't flitted there (and many other unsavory places)--in the wake of Rowling's *unlikely-pairing-at-the-heart-of- it-all* teaser.... And it's not as if you'd get an argument from me that Snape's likely to have his fingers in every pie... But Petunia!!!!!! Wasting that...that wand work...that prowess...that dark magnetism on...on HER skanky bones!!!!! Please, please Constance...Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! > You never read my post about this on the main list? That's because >it was rejected by the mods. The reason given? "Too fanciful." I can > only assume my elf was a Snapefan. Eh...I'll be diplomatic and just say that there have been more than a few *unfortunate* mods over there. I would have forgiven a Snapefan for failing to send your post on, by virture of having passed out cold as your theory sunk in. But to call it "too fanciful"--in the context of Main? Smack worthy. Reaching for the smelling salts, Talisman From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 9 23:34:54 2007 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 23:34:54 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > Will she, in a desperate attempt to re-ingratiate herself, turn on > Harry when Voldemort comes knocking? (Especially if she's learned > that Dumbledore is defunct?) Oh, she's learned of his demise, all right. As Professor Flitwick said in HBP ch. 29 [630 US]: "Our students should pay tribute, it is fitting. We can arrange transport home afterward." McGonagall wanted to send the students home at once, and even though Harry successfully argued for their being able to attend the funeral, they still were sent home *early.* And that just wouldn't happen without parents and guardians being notified. In fact, it's my opinion that the whole point of writing in the rescheduled Hogwarts Express was to get Petunia notified of DD's death, and to reexamine her priorities. Voldemort's back, DD's gone - such a reversal of fortunes! Though, far be it from me to think DD expected to live forever. I'm sure she'll receive one LAST communication from that quarter, in one form or another - even if it's in the form of a visit from a member of the Order of the Phoenix. Anne From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 10 03:21:26 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 03:21:26 -0000 Subject: theme park / Sevvy / Sally / Petunia Message-ID: Heidi wrote in : << Re: [the_old_crowd] Fancy a stroll down Diagon Alley? Of course, I'm lucky to live only a few hours away, but I certainly plan to be there, kids in tow, on Day 1 (if not before). >> I admire the faith of you, the investors of the theme park, and for that matter all the people proposing to host HP conventions in 2008 and beyond -- I feel no certainty that something in HP&DH won't make me (and a lot of other people) want never to think of Harry and the Potterverse again -- want to blot it out of mind as desperately as I, in my childhood, wanted to blot out all memory of the most embarrassing incident of my childhood, in which ... ... I mistook a stranger for my mother! At some local amusement pier, I got off a ride and looked around and found a familiar-looking hemline (I was knee-high and hems were knee-length), to which I ran up, saying: "Can I have an ice cream? I want a chocolate one, or maybe striped would be better" and she said something like "Excuse me, what are you talking about?" in THE WRONG VOICE! Kneasy wrote in : << it turns out Sevvy is a no-good, murdering scrote (snip) How many would still be in Sevvy's cheering section? Or rather, given the cries of dis-approbation that would swamp the sites, how many would admit it? >> Presumably quite a few, considering how many female fans have bragged of their crush on Lucius Malfoy -- altho' I haven't checked whether some of them got over him when he went to prison, no longer the model of wealth and power -- nor have I checked whether anyone has lost her crush on Draco since he proved unable to murder DD. Kneasy wrote in : << just who carved the serpent on the tap in Myrtle's bathroom and why? Sally can't have done >> Why can't he have? Constance Vigilance wrote in << I proposed that Petunia and Snape have some history. If you read their descriptions, they resemble each other physically. (snip) To this day, the Petunia/Severus ship is the only ship I sail. >> A physical resemblance suggests they're related (cousins, or half-siblings) more than that they're lovers. From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 10 07:05:54 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:05:54 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" wrote: > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" > wrote: > > > Will she, in a desperate attempt to re-ingratiate herself, turn on > > Harry when Voldemort comes knocking? (Especially if she's learned > > that Dumbledore is defunct?) > > Oh, she's learned of his demise, all right. >snip< > In fact, it's my opinion that the whole point of writing in the > rescheduled Hogwarts Express was to get Petunia notified of DD's > death, and to reexamine her priorities. Voldemort's back, DD's >gone - such a reversal of fortunes! Anne, dear, you are SO all over this early release/parental notification issue. It's not the first time you've pointed it out to me, and I'm glad you're here to point it out again. >It's *bound* to cause her to do something...unfortunate. Oh, yes it's *bound* to. ::rubs hands gleefully:: And we get to sit back and watch. Talisman, feeling very Dumbledore-esque, at the moment, as the dominoes line up so nicely From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 10 08:38:28 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:38:28 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" > wrote: > >> Now to the problem at hand: > > > > What *is* our horse-faced housekeeper hiding under her apron? > > > Talisman, saying, let's have her go out after a *last vile move* > that sets up the delightfully thorough smack down. > Mooseming: > What is the hold either Puppetmaster!DD or Voldemort could have over > Petunia? I'm increasingly of the opinion that Dudley is a wizard, > not a particularly powerful one but magical none the less. Talisman: We are so burdened by that wretched late-bloomer business. Like a pebble in the old shoe, it keeps rolling back to spoil the scenery. And Dudley is such a Dud that I suppose it's only natural to want to help him out. Give the poor putz a break and light up his wand, eh? You soft- hearted wench. But our icy-hearted Goddess is having none of it: [I]n book seven [Harry will] be allowed to use magic outside school. Ha-ha (cackling). So Dudley's really going to be in trouble. [Laughter] "Now look at you being nasty to Dudley." I get letters from parents saying I'm mean because I make Harry be nasty to Dudley. And I'm like, have you read Dudley? do you understand what Dudley's like? I mean, there's turning the other cheek and there's just being a moron! (The Magical World Of J K Rowling http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/1999/1099-bostonvideo- dissendium.html ) Moreover she's pretty much quashed his chances of blooming anything interesting: Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye? "No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that he is definitely a character without much back story. He is just Dudley." (Edinburgh Book Festival, Sunday, August 15, 2004. http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2004/0804-ebf.htm ). Ol' Dudley Wysiwyg Dursley isn't likely to be the hub of an elaborate magical suppression scheme. Mooseming: > Why might she be afraid of Azkeban? Perhaps someone has told her > that is the destination of rogue wizards Talisman: It's hard to see how Petunia would live in fear, not only of his becoming a wizard, but a rogue one at that--and then so much so that Azkaban would become her mantra--when he has never so much as summoned a snack cake. On top of that, and in addition to Rowling's statements, I think we can disqualify both Dudley and Mrs. Figg, as the late-bloomer, since neither one of them could see the dementors. Late-bloomers don't *become* magical at an advanced age, they're simply slower at manifesting *feats.* You are either born magic, or not. And, if you are magic, you can see dementors. Dudley and Mrs. Figg did not, and therefore, they are not. Now you have me off on this tangent. ; ) We really have a rather short list of Squibs and Muggles to choose from. With Dudley out, I think we can safely cross the whole Dursley family off our list: DR: The Dursleys. JKR: The Dursleys. And they're what wizards call muggles. Meaning that they're completely non-magical. (Diane Rehm Show http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/1999/1299-wamu-rehm.htm ) E: Like the Dursleys are more of a cutout bad people? JK: Yes and no. You will meet Dursleys, in Britain. You will. I've barely exaggerated them. (CBC NewsWorld http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/0700-hottype-solomon.htm) *LRGS School: Which character do you most dislike ? JK Rowling replies -> Probably Uncle Vernon. (World Book Day Chat http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm) And, of course, my original post had all the quotes about Petunia's certified Mugglehood. The Dursleys are Rowling's consummate Muggles, and are slated to go on representing for the rest of the program. Once the Dursley's are out of our hair, we don't have much left in the way of Muggles with sufficient character development to do anything interesting in Book 7. Milkman Creevey and the Grangers, DDS, are hardly candidates. I'm sure someone out there is pulling for Piers Polekiss, but that's just unseemly. Mark Evans has already been written off as a non-entity, so unless the Prime Minister is going to turn the opposition into gerbils, we are smack out of stock. Squib-wise, we've already nixed Figgy...so, unless I'm over-looking someone...the winner is...must be...Filtch! Granted, late-bloomer is straining the euphemism in his case. Still, he's been set up nicely with all his Quikspell practice--at least he's got a wand to wave--and a burst of hands-on success will spice things up nicely with Ms. Pince. Question is, what will our Marques de Argus do once he's running hot? His impulses usually aren't pleasant. Especially when it comes to young`uns. On the other hand, Filtch *did* help bind up Snape's wounds in PS/SS. There seems to be an amicable relationship between those two, so maybe the old git'll earn his keep in some service to our Dusky Hero. That'd be my bet. How about our generous author--eh? A twist for everyone, including Filtch. Talisman, crossing another subplot off the list. From constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 10 09:18:11 2007 From: constancevigilance at constancevigilance.yahoo.invalid (constancevigilance) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:18:11 -0000 Subject: The Doomspell Tournament Message-ID: I'm going to go out on a limb (well, a little limb) here and say that I think all the Tri-wizard champions will die by the end of the last book. I came to that conclusion after an evening with John Granger and Lexicon Steve at Sonorus 2007 tonight. Here's why I think so. As we recall, JKR was going to call book 4 HP and the Doomspell Tournament. But if she were going to kill off all the champions, calling it The Tournament Spelling Doom was sort of a giveaway, so there needed to be a name change. Could she be planning on offing all the champions? Tri-wizard victim #1 was Cedric. Ced, we hardly knew ye. Victim #2 - There are many elements of philosophical alchemy in the story, and JKR is known to have studied this subject in depth before beginning writing. A discussion of the alchemical symbolism in Harry Potter is beyond the scope of this post, but let's just say that it is a seven-step process that includes a wedding in step seven. The bride and groom are known as the White Queen and the Red King are likely to die in battle. Is it a coincidence that Fleur and Bill (white and red hair respectively) are getting married in the seventh book? There has been speculation for quite some time that at least one Weasley would bite it before the end. Based on this hypothesis, it sounds as if Bill could be the unlucky one, perhaps taking his bride with him. Tri-wizard victim #2 is the veela in the tiara. Victor Krum has all the markings of a hero. Brave, fearless. Has given his heart to a woman who doesn't return his feelings. And I've been saying all along that the lake portal to Durmstrang has to be used again. I still think that Durmstrang students and trolls will join the final battle against Death Eaters and giants. I still think Quirrell will be leading the charge, but if it is Krum instead who comes through the lake portal to save the day, I'll still claim to have gotten it right. But Quirrell or Krum (or both), they will perish in the attempt. Buh-bye Tri-wizard champion #3. Then there is Harry. It may or may not be curtains for Harry. Or veils, as may be. But I think there will be at least a time when we are all certain that Harry is toast. Personally, I think he will go through the veil. Whether or not he comes back out is the question. He does have a loophole in the Spell of Doom curse. He sort of never was a real champion. His name only went into the goblet as a fluke. After it did, he did a bang-up job and won the darn thing, but he never qualified under the rules. By this, I think he will come back from his state of deadness just in time for a happy ending. But there you go. Spelling doom for the Doomspell T. CV, spinning theories fast before time runs out. From fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 10 12:12:37 2007 From: fmaneely at fhmaneely.yahoo.invalid (fhmaneely) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:12:37 -0000 Subject: Will there be dragons? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: started re-reading SS/PS last night,and didn't have to get too far to find an interesting tidbit about dragons. Hagrid is explaining Gringotts to Harry and says there are high security vaults guarded by dragons! Could explain 2 of the book covers. Question is did Harry receive an inheritance from DD as someone mentioned in a much earlier post or is the Trio hairbrained and breaking into Gringotts ala the MOM from OOTP? Fran --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" wrote: > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "fhmaneely" wrote: > > > > I wonder if the dragon (Norbert?) the trio is riding on is guarding the > > treasure seen on the uk book 7 cover. There seems to be alot of red > > and orrange outside the opening they are falling out of, and said trio > > looks to have burn marks on the arms and faces.....hmmmmm > > Hats off the Kneasy! > > > > Shucks. T'warn't nothin', more a hope than a prediction. > Can't have a proper finale without dragons, t'aint right. > Besides, they're permanently pissed-off vicious killers, just > the sort of beastie to counter any outbreaks of fluffiness. > (Memo: must get one for the front gate of Schloss Kneasy > to see off unwanted visitors - i.e. all of 'em. Current > guardian (The Hound from Hell) spends most of her time > sleeping, pinching my dinner and chewing books - 'cept when > out on walkies, when any non-canine furry creature is considered > a buckshee appetiser prior to the next raid on my kitchen.) > > Kneasy > From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 10 12:35:27 2007 From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:35:27 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kneasy: > We sort of know when he 'came back' but we don't know when he 'went > over'. > Now suppose that at the interview he wasn't a DE, that it was the passing of this little gem of information on to Voldy that got him promoted to the elite band of brothers that are the DEs - as a reward. Mind you, it'd be the sort of offer he wouldn't dare refuse, I think. > > Further suppose that he wanders back to chez Snape pleased as Punch > about his enhanced career prospects - and the missus hates the idea. > She tells him so - every day for the next X months; just won't shut up about it. Voldy decides that this pestilential dissenter ought to be silenced, she's getting on his nerves and the lads are getting twitchy. > Zap! > All is blissful silence, what a relief - until the remorse sets in with Sevvy. > Works, do you think? > Well, yeah. Sort of. If Mrs Snape was so dead against the idea, she'd hardly be likely to be in contact with Voldy. Certainly not enough to get on his nerves, unless she was *very* dim. > > Dung: > > We've got > > > > 1. The prophecy was delivered anything up to half a year before Harry > > was born. > > "On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at > > the Hog's Head inn." > > - OotP ch37 UK p740. > > Not happy with this. > I was until this morning when I was checking canon about Syb's > Pensieve turn, and then what DD says with the 'nearly' hit me. > Before then I'd sort of assumed that it had happened Sept/Oct/Nov > '79, more or less in agreement with the Lexicon - but now... I don't > know. > The gap could be anywhere between 9 months and 1 month. > Nine is OK, no problem; a gap of one sends most of your theory down > the tubes, 'cos Draino would already have been born. > Need some sort of confirmation from somewhere. Ok, you're going to have to clarify, because I see one `nearly' from DD. "It meant," said Dumbledore, "that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago." OotP ch 37 UK p 741 He's referring to Harry's birth, not the timing of the prophecy. How are you interpreting this? > > Kneasy: > > > But for Blackwidower to be valid, his offcut had to have been > > killed > > > before he swapped sides yet had to have been old enough to be > > > depicted as 'a small boy', (not a baby) in the memory flash. > > > So to work, Snape!Son would probably have to have been born at > > > least 6 months before Harry. > > > Which would suggest that a July-born Snape!Son theory (therefore potentially Voldy's!Bane, so I'd better knock him off, signed Voldy) > > > might have a glitch. > > > Assuming I'm correct, any chance you can nudge it back on track? > > > > Dung: > > Ah. I hadn't actually tied in Snape's memory in the occlumency > > lessons to this, but now I come to think of it, it was the original prompt for the theory, wasn't it? Damn. Hang on. > > > > ::muted sounds of swearing as books are hurled across the room:: > > > > It could work if Voldy didn't detect Snape's hand in helping Regulus until a while afterwards. The latest it could happen anyway would be say, a month before Harry was targeted, we need time for Snape to turn to DD, and spy at great personal risk for a bit before GH. Then we're talking about a 14 month-old baby Snape. 14 month-olds look pretty much like babies, too, rather than `small boys'. > > > > "But... But..." expostulated a gob-smacked Kneasy, > If Snape has already turned to DD (that was months before GH), and > NailedSnape!Son hasn't happened yet, then the whole raison d'etre > for Blackwidower/Snape!Son is up the pictures. > Can't have that. Dearie me, no. > One of me favourite theories rip't untimely from the womb, t'ain't > right... mutter...mutter... > Your theory needs some work, I think. That's not what I meant at all. Regulus dies the year Harry was born, so the year *before* GH, the year of the prophecy. The killing of Snape's family can happen any time up until he turns, which is not necessarily *months* before GH, all we know is that it was before GH. It could be a matter of days or weeks beforehand, Snape could have already been working at Hogwarts *before* he turned (if DD suspected that he was there to spy for Voldy, and thought it better to put Snape somewhere he could keep an eye on him, rather than risk letting him overhear any other job interviews). I put the killing of Snape's family back to around the time of the birth so that we could have Regulus being one of the times Snape defied Voldy, but if Voldy didn't find out that Snape had helped Reg until later, we can put the murders much later, so that we can have the memory of the little boy being Snape!son. The killing of Snape's family must be the trigger which sends him to DD in search of revenge. If I'm right and his family was killed because they fulfilled the conditions of the prophecy, Snape must have defied Voldy three times. I put the prophecy around the Christmas before Harry et al were born, which, as you point out, works fine. You want to put the prophecy later, the latest I can have the prophecy is at the beginning of June, because we need time for the Malfoys to induce Draco early. It still works, I think, the only problem is that there's less chance Snape would have kept his incipient sprog quiet from Voldy. But that's no barrier. 1. Beginning of June. Snape overhears the prophecy. He is unnerved, as both he and Malfoy are expecting babies at the appropriate time. He goes to Lucius, and tells him what he heard. The Malfoys panic and induce Draco early. Snape doesn't want to do the same (for whatever reason), but he figures that since he hasn't defied Voldy three times, he's safe. Malfoy insists that Snape must tell Voldy the prophecy, otherwise he will do so himself. 2. First week of June Snape passes Voldy the prophecy. Voldy tells him to tell no-one, so Snape makes sure Malfoy's going to stay quiet about his lapse of discretion, Malfoy assures him that as long as Snape's told Voldy, it's ok. 3. End of July Snape lies about the birth date of his son. Say, he claims it was born a week earlier or later than it was. Voldy doesn't find out. 4. Some time in the year of the prophecy, could be anything from January to December, and doesn't really matter much... Regulus wants out, Snape helps him, Voldy doesn't find out. Now it depends on where you want to put Snape's turning to DD, but in order to make it as compatible with the memory you so desperately want to be Snape, wife and son, let's put it at the end of September, so the `little boy' is around 14 months old. 5. End September before GH. Snape is working at Hogwarts, thinking that he's spying on DD for Voldy. DD knows he's a spy and is using him to pass on misinformation. 6. Snape has a wife and a small boy. Voldemort finds out (perhaps in the course of legilimensing Malfoy, or Narcissa, or even Snape himself) that Malfoy knows about the prophecy. He calls a suitably frightened Snape, and cracks open his mind, and thus discovers in addition that Snape lied, that his son *was* born at the end of July, and that he helped Regulus out when Voldy wanted him dead. In addition to telling Malfoy the prophecy that makes three defiances. 7. The killings, Malfoy intervenes to save Snape's life, though the exact circumstances are negotiable. All that matters is that Voldy caused the deaths of Snape's wife and son in a probably very unpleasant way. 8. Beginning of October before GH. Snape goes to DD with tale of remorse, and information that Voldy is now targeting the Potters, and offers to become a double agent. What did I miss? But anyway, I definitely prefer the original version, with the Christmas prophecy. I still don't really understand why you want to put the prophecy so late on (particularly given what Trelawney says about when she started teaching). I don't think it's necessary that the memory flash was of Snape!son, either, in fact, I'm sticking with my original version of the theory. Was just trying to point out that it could be tweaked to make you happy. Dungrollin From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Mon Jun 11 09:44:28 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:44:28 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: Pondering response from Dungrollin. Hmm. Yes, best to start at the end, I think. > > I don't think it's necessary that the memory flash was of Snape!son, > either, in fact, I'm sticking with my original version of the theory. > Was just trying to point out that it could be tweaked to make you > happy. > That's nice. Not many posters would consider 'let's make Kneasy happy' as a worth-while investment of their time and effort. Still, there was a point to the prodding to try and find a congruence between your ideas and the old Snape!Son, even though you may have found the old fool a bit irritating. 'Cos what we have here (as we both suspected and is now shown pretty convincingly) isn't an extension of the old idea, it's a variation. Would have been fun if they could have complemented each other, but I don't think they do - they simply overlap at interesting points. The Blackwidower bit is (in principle) accepted as fundamental to both. As is Snape!Son to a large extent, but there're critical dividers. 1. The memory flash. The fons et origo of the old one, but inessential in yours. And I have to admit (lean a bit closer so that no-one else can hear), that flash is a damn slender thread to hang a theory on - but I like it. Also, not tying your theory to a tight time-window allows for more flexibilty if bits of surfacing canon mean adjustments are needed. Very difficult to do with the old one. 2. Causes. More or less the opposite situation to that above. Yours is bound to Voldy and his fears about and interpretations of the Prophecy. The old one is much looser, with more than one possibility: Snape and/or missus does something, sometime that pisses Voldy off causing a drastic reaction; or the wife and veg aren't specifically targeted, but Sevvy holds Voldy responsible for their (unnecessary?) demise. 3. Timeline. Yours postulates that it's the timing of Snape!Son's birth close to "as the seventh month dies" that is the trigger. In the old one Snape!Son is born and then the eventual zapping is sufficiently previous to GH to allow Sevvy to join DD months before that event. Agreed? Anything other basics that might make the headlines? Now, first thing - as is traditional, the discoverer of a new species gets to name it, so that we and anyone else who's interested will be able to refer to each without possible confusion with the other. Thoughts? Kneasy From olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid Tue Jun 12 13:06:18 2007 From: olivier.fouquet at olivierfouquet2000.yahoo.invalid (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:06:18 -0000 Subject: Expecto auxilium Message-ID: It has been a long, long time since I have written something about dear old Harry (not that I ever posted much, mind you) but this recent flurry of activity-the last convulsion of the HP fandom or the beginning of a grand era of Potterology?-has lured me out of the broken vanishing cabinet. And for what? To discuss fairy tales. It has been noted that the HP series start as a classical fairy tale, what with the escapist theme, the mean step parents and the perfect deceased ones, the classical auxiliary objects (invisibility cloak and Nimbus 2000), the old and omnipotent wise man that doesn't do anything, the initiatory rite of sorting and overcoming trials... But then the logic is disrupted when it is Quirrell and not the iconic vilain Snape that turns out to be the bad guy and from that point on everything goes downhill. Once a fairy tale, this story about wizards somehow manages to become one of disenchantment. The magical prompts lose their semi-mystical aura (Moody can see through the invisibility cloak), perfect parents and trusted mentors turned out to be all too human... However, this pattern of moving away from the fairy tale genre runs parallel to another pattern of symmetry between books. What is laid down in book 2 (Tom Riddle's mysterious and dangerous powers, as well as, at least if you share my idiosyncratic approach to symbolism, a statement about the dangers of sexuality) is undone in book 6 (Voldemort's mystery is elucidated and love is lived as an entirely normal and positive thing). What is established in book 3 (that Harry can find a powerful inspiration in the memory of his father and that Sirius will be free) is cancelled in book 5. So I entertain the altogether banal idea that DH will rerun through the fairy tale genre, in one way or another, and in particular with the use of auxiliaries. In good old fairy tale style, I thus wonder if some of the characters from the previous books will not return as pure auxiliaries, fulfilling their role once and for all. Dobby, Kreacher, Krum, Norbert, even Peter... I would expect each of them to come back to Harry's side at one crucial moment. In the same spirit, I would expect the return of magical prompts: Fawkes, the Invisibility Cloak, Gryffindor's relics, the Mirror of Erised and that of Sirius. They should come back as well, if DH is to revisit the dairy tale genre. So many things, so little time. Olivier From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 13 11:25:31 2007 From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:25:31 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry for the delay. Kneasy putting first things last: > Now, first thing - as is traditional, the discoverer of a new species > gets to name it, so that we and anyone else who's interested will be > able to refer to each without possible confusion with the other. I think this is as good as it's going to get: Snape Caught Out With Lucius, Inauspicious Nippers Generate Paranoia, Overlord's Temper Ignites Over News, Even Encouraged Regulus S.C.O.W.L.I.N.G. P.O.T.I.O.N.E.E.R. > 'Cos what we have here (as we both suspected and is now shown > pretty convincingly) isn't an extension of the old idea, it's a variation. > Would have been fun if they could have complemented each other, > but I don't think they do - they simply overlap at interesting points. > > The Blackwidower bit is (in principle) accepted as fundamental to both. > As is Snape!Son to a large extent, but there're critical dividers. > > 1. The memory flash. The fons et origo of the old one, but inessential > in yours. And I have to admit (lean a bit closer so that no-one else > can hear), that flash is a damn slender thread to hang a theory on - > but I like it. Also, not tying your theory to a tight time-window allows > for more flexibilty if bits of surfacing canon mean adjustments are > needed. Very difficult to do with the old one. Weelll is it? You're tied down to the timing of when Snape turned in order to fix a date for the murders, but I'm not sure there's any real canon about when Snape turned, so in principle you could place the deaths of wife and child almost anywhere between the prophecy and GH. Depending, again, on where you want to put the prophecy. > 2. Causes. More or less the opposite situation to that above. > Yours is bound to Voldy and his fears about and interpretations of the > Prophecy. The old one is much looser, with more than one possibility: > Snape and/or missus does something, sometime that pisses Voldy off > causing a drastic reaction; or the wife and veg aren't specifically targeted, > but Sevvy holds Voldy responsible for their (unnecessary?) demise. Yep. Well, actually, one can think up any number of ways in which Snape and/or the missus pissed Voldy off, and substitute them for any of the three I put in my theory, but I very definitely need three defiances, while you only need one. > 3. Timeline. Yours postulates that it's the timing of Snape!Son's birth > close to "as the seventh month dies" that is the trigger. In the old one > Snape!Son is born and then the eventual zapping is sufficiently previous > to GH to allow Sevvy to join DD months before that event. More or less. Worth noting that Snape defying Voldy three times will antagonise the Dark Lord, even without being the father of a child born at the appropriate time. > Agreed? > Anything other basics that might make the headlines? Don't think so. On to the implications? From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 13 18:50:58 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:50:58 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > > Sorry for the delay. > > I think this is as good as it's going to get: > > Snape Caught Out With Lucius, Inauspicious Nippers Generate > Paranoia, Overlord's Temper Ignites Over News, Even Encouraged Regulus > > S.C.O.W.L.I.N.G. P.O.T.I.O.N.E.E.R. Cor! Bet that took some skull work to construct! > > > > > 1. The memory flash. > > Weelll is it? You're tied down to the timing of when Snape turned in > order to fix a date for the murders, but I'm not sure there's any > real canon about when Snape turned, so in principle you could place > the deaths of wife and child almost anywhere between the prophecy and > GH. Depending, again, on where you want to put the prophecy. > You're right, there isn't canon for when Sevvy sees the light and joins the Band of Hope. However, producing the Snape sproglet does impose quite severe time constraints... this generation is only about 4 years out of Hogwarts at the time of GH. So into that gap we have to fit prophecy, marriage, kid (not necessarily in that order), gap, Voldy doing the dirty, Sevvy joining DD and then GH. Some people do lead eventful lives, don't they? In the original (based on the memory flash) Snape!Son must be at least 2 years old, calling for fast work from Sevvy. In yours his age when zapped isn't so critical - so you've a bit of built-in flexibility. > > 2. Causes. > > Yep. Well, actually, one can think up any number of ways in which > Snape and/or the missus pissed Voldy off, and substitute them for any > of the three I put in my theory, but I very definitely need three > defiances, while you only need one. > Yes. Those three defiances... > > 3. Timeline. > > More or less. Worth noting that Snape defying Voldy three times will > antagonise the Dark Lord, even without being the father of a child > born at the appropriate time. > > > Agreed? > > Anything other basics that might make the headlines? > > Don't think so. On to the implications? > Oh, yes. Ready when you are, sunshine. Kneasy From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 15 08:19:13 2007 From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 08:19:13 -0000 Subject: Black Widower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry (again) for the delay, I've been a bit under the weather. > > > Anything other basics that might make the headlines? > > > > Don't think so. On to the implications? > > > > Oh, yes. > Ready when you are, sunshine. > > Kneasy > Righty-ho. Please correct me where I'm wrong/vague on Black Widower. 1. Snape's level of dedication to Voldemort and the DEs. The original BlackWidower!Snape was a fully committed DE, his reason for turning against Voldy was that he viewed interference in his family as a personal slight. This leaves Snape free to hate everyone (including DD), to still be rabidly anti-muggleborn, and a dyed-in- the-wool dark arts fancier. He doesn't *have* to be, of course, it's your theory The Scowling Potioneer was a committed DE, but he got involved through his friends, and they were always more important to him than any loyalty to Voldemort. He was always willing to bend Voldy's rules, and was never a Bella- (or Barty-) level nutter, he'd never have willingly risked his life for Voldemort. The Scowling Potioneer also reacted with genuine horror to the murder of his wife (and/or son), and although his major motivation for changing sides was to revenge himself upon Voldemort, he was also horrified when he realised Voldy was targeting the Potters because of the prophecy. 2. Dumbledore's trust Kneasy wrote: > The two (OFH and DDM) needn't necessarily be mutually exclusive. > If Sevvy is bent on revenge then his best option is to throw in his lot with DD. And since DD is the man with the plan, he'd be a bit foolish not to follow DD's lead. Sevvy wants Voldy brought down, but > he can't do it himself - ergo co-operate with the man that can. I can see BlackWidower!Snape's motivation for working with DD, but I have a hard time working out why DD would trust him *completely*. You've used the word `remorse' a couple of times, but I couldn't really tell if you were being serious or not. If you were, what exactly was he remorseful about? Passing on the Prophecy? Getting involved with the DE's in the first place? What was it he did that he wished he hadn't? Why did DD buy the story? And most importantly, why does he think he can't tell Harry? Unfortunately Scowling Potioneer has the same problems, really. The best I can do is a rather uninspired kind of special pleading. Certainly not quite the cast-iron reason for trust that McGonagall says DD hinted at. 3. When Harry (remember him?) finds out. BlackWidower!Snape is just as unsympathetic as Harry has always considered Snape always was. How will Harry react to this news about Snape's history, what will it change? Do you think it's enough on its own to convince Harry that Snape is against Voldy? Scowling Potioneer is a Snape story with the potential to make Harry feel uncomfortable. He's used to the idea that he's the one who's been picked out of the crowd, that it's all so unfair on him, that he's suffered terribly because of the prophecy, orphaned, scarred, repeatedly attacked To find out that someone else lost their family for the same reason, and has been suffering ever since, *and* has the added guilt of it all being his own fault for passing on the prophecy in the first place has the potential to pull the rug out from under him. Scowling Potioneer inspires sympathy, and casts new light on Snape's belief that Harry is nothing special, his general misanthropy, his fondness for Draco, and his hatred of James. Dung Noting that the third WOMBAT's got some interesting bits and pieces, and wondering if there's any chance of figuring out the scoring system this time. From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 15 11:37:44 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:37:44 -0000 Subject: Petunia's Dirty Little Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > > > > Talisman: > > We are so burdened by that wretched late-bloomer business. Like a > pebble in the old shoe, it keeps rolling back to spoil the scenery. > > And Dudley is such a Dud that I suppose it's only natural to want to > help him out. > > Give the poor putz a break and light up his wand, eh? You soft- > hearted wench. > > But our icy-hearted Goddess is having none of it: >snip > > Moreover she's pretty much quashed his chances of blooming anything > interesting: > > Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye? > "No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that > he is definitely a character without much back story. He is just > Dudley." > > (Edinburgh Book Festival, Sunday, August 15, 2004. > http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2004/0804-ebf.htm ). > Ratus Ratus! Holed below the waterline and going down with all hands! Unless it counts as Petunia's back story? Nah that's just a passing straw.... > Ol' Dudley Wysiwyg Dursley isn't likely to be the hub of an elaborate > magical suppression scheme. so it would seem! > > Squib-wise, we've already nixed Figgy...so, unless I'm over- looking > someone...the winner is...must be...Filtch! yep I guess it has to be > > Talisman, crossing another subplot off the list. > Thanks er really. Regards Jo From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 15 11:57:19 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:57:19 -0000 Subject: Blackwidower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) Message-ID: Under the weather? Not more plasmodium, I hope? Apologies of my own. I fully intended to follow up your reasoning/proposed scenario in my last post, but real life intervened. So, belatedly, into the detail: (extracts are from 2 of your previous posts so there's some jumping around) > The two major bits of relevant canon we were given in HBP are: > 1. Snape was the eavesdropper.[1] > 2. When Snape realised how Voldemort was interpreting the prophecy, > his remorse made him 'return' to the good guys' table.[2] > I've mentioned my reservations re: Eavesdropper!Snape previously, so no need to repeat. But "how Voldy was interpreting the prophecy".... We're told that Bigears (whoever) only caught the beginning - up to "...born as the seventh month dies...". Interestingly, this fragment doesn't mention if it'll be male or female contender for top spot, and the original Nemesis was female IIRC. Still, it's safe to assume that among his other faults Voldy is also a sexist pig, so he'd dismiss the thought of losing to a girly as preposterous. Mind you, with La Bella Dame sans Merci gleefully carving swathes through the WW population and matching notches on her wand, t'ain't such a given. So - he's got the stork arriving at the back end of July, to those who've defied him thrice. Those - plural. It's not much, but he should be able to draw up a short-list of candidates. "Who's in pod that's pissed me off?" he cries. Put that in the WW equivalent of Google and he's in business. 'Course, 'defied' might need refining a bit. More than just opposing His Nastiness as a matter of principle, I'd think; has overtones of specific acts, though what they may be we don't have a clue, not for the Potters nor the Longbottoms. Even so, can't be too long a list and apparently DD only bothered checking against members of the Order. (Why does that cause my ears to perk up? 'Cos it fits with Puppetmaster!DD fixing the whole shebang, that's why.) > > Just try to imagine for a moment that you're a power-hungry psychotic > (easier for some than others) and someone has just told you a kid > with the clout to pulp you is going to be born; you'd start getting > twitchy around *any* pregnant women, wouldn't you? Oh, and you'd > utterly forbid the minion who brought you the news to tell anybody > else. > Well, maybe. Certainly he might keep the troops in the dark about a possible vanquisher, but there again he might consider it an opportunity to demonstrate his supremacy. Depends if he's read the Rules. But what he'd want more than anything else is information, and to get that he'd have to pass the word that there were certain classes of intelligence that he's particularly interested in. > So let's say that it's about now that Snape's wife [5] discovers that > she is pregnant. Narcissa's pregnant too! How nice. Snape works out > immediately that both children are due at the end of July. Lucius is > his friend [6], Snape warns him of the problem, and tells him the > first two lines of the prophecy [7], pleading with him to not let > Voldemort know that Narcissa is pregnant, because it will put her in > danger. But Snape is too late, Voldy already knows that the Malfoys > are expecting the patter of tiny feet. > > The two couples are understandably worried, Voldemort has not told > Snape anything about how he's interpreted the prophecy, so Snape has > *no clue* what he intends, and no clue exactly how he's reading `as > the seventh month dies'. At the beginning of June, Lucius and/or > Narcissa panic and induce their baby early (however they do such > things in the WW). Draco is born dangerously premature on June 5th, > [8] but it's better that he should struggle through his first year of > life (Magical Medicine should be enough to see him through) than that > Voldy should even consider the possibility that he's the prophecy > baby. > It's a truism that run-of-the-mill dictators do tend to worry more about a coup emanating from their own ranks rather than getting a kicking from the outside opposition. And then there's the fact that it's a prophecy. Oh, dear. If he's got any historical perspective, then he'll be aware how twisty those things can be. Downfall could end up meaning he trips on a fluffy bunny spilled from a cot and impales himself on his own wand; at least 'vanquish' implies some sort of a contest, but it still could be tricky. One good thing from his perspective - there's no rush. A mewling babe isn't likely to be a serious competitor for a few years yet. > The Malfoys are very grateful to Snape for the warning he gave them, > and know that he's risked a lot for them by disobeying Voldy's > command to tell no one about the prophecy. The Snapes, for some > reason (difficult pregnancy?) do not want to risk inducing their baby > prematurely. They've got around the problem so far by not letting it > get out that Mrs Snape is pregnant, so Voldy doesn't know. > Stepping back outside the plot - how likely do you think Jo is to get pregnancy and induction into the story? So far we haven't come across a single gravid female in six books. > 1. The prophecy must be given to Voldemort before Snape knows that it > applies to his own offspring, or before it occurs to him that it > possibly could (since he hasn't yet defied Voldy), which is just > about plausible if it happened at Christmas. > > 2. Snape is caught helping Reg at some point during the year the > child (and Draco and Harry and Neville) were, or would have been > born. > > 3. Voldy finds out about the kid, about Lucius also knowing the > prophecy, and about helping Reg any time before say, a month prior to > GH. (Though I like Snape having the extra year between the murder of > his family and turning to DD, to give him time to seethe and rankle > and scheme.) > > Snape and Reggie are old pals, united in their hatred of Sirius at > school, Um. Reggie. The Lexicon surmises that there's only a year or so between him and Sirius, so it's possible that he could have teamed up with Snapey, even given the propensity of schoolboys to stick mainly with others of their own intake. As usual, we're a bit in the dark on timings. When did he do his sleight of hand stunt with the hosscrux, when did Voldy find out, when did he cop it in the neck? (He's in 3 entries in the Lexicon - 2 say he died in '79, one says '80. That gives a spread of between 2.5 years and zero between the swop and the critical podding period. Seems reasonable (until more info emerges) to go mid-period, unless Voldy was into last-minute hosscrux production on a just-in-case basis. Does that cause you a problem? > so Snape (foolishly ? he hasn't learned too much about Voldy > yet) tries to help Reg, save him, hide him, whatever. Voldemort knows > that Snape and Regulus are thick as thieves, so he questions Snape, > who is still wet-behind-the-ears, [11] and as yet unable to hide his > lies with Occlumency [12]. Voldemort knows he's lying, Regulus is > quickly discovered and killed within days of Voldy shouting "Off with > his head!" [13] > > Voldemort is therefore very much displeased with Snape. He orders > Snape to be killed (that'll learn him!). However, Lucius Malfoy, > still grateful to Snape for his tip off about the prophecy, > intervenes (at great personal risk) to persuade Voldemort to spare > Snape. Lucius's strategy involves pointing out to Voldy how very > useful a talented young wizard like Snape could be. [14] > An altruistic Malfoy... Goes against the grain, somewhat. As does his arguing a case against His Paranoid Evilness. Given the situation (i.e. he's been warned that there's a big problem on the way) he'd be more likely to zap everybody in sight just to nip any potential conspiracy in the bud to be on the safe side, wouldn't he? After all, he's supposed to be topping Snape!Son and eventually the Potter and Longbottom kids on just that basis - prevention is better than cure. Now Voldy wiping out the missus and off-spring because he thought Sevvy had let him down by failing to keep a sufficiently close eye on Reggie is a possibility of sorts - a "pour encourage les autres" moment. But Malfoy intervening... dunno. From the text the only person who tries to get Voldy to change his mind is Peter, the rest just suck up to him and probably manoeuvre amongst themselves to bask in his approval. And Lucius is such a self-serving little creep. Moving on... > > DD, however, suspects that Snape is a Death Eater (though he doesn't > let on), and refuses him the job since he suspects that Snape is > there on Voldy's orders. But he leaves options open, because he > doesn't want Voldemort to kill Snape for failing to secure the job. > Perhaps he says that he's already filled the post for that year, but > cheerfully invites Snape to reapply in the future [21]. Voldy > grudgingly gives Snape one more year's grace. > Even if he suspects he's a DE and therefore his motives, DD could well bring Sevvy into Hogwarts on the basis of keeping your enemies close, but would he trust him as he's supposedly done? Not without pretty substantial proofs involving frequent and sustained Legilimancy, info from trusted informers and a long probationary period IMO. Though if the prophecy is a DD scam he could feel a bit responsible for Snape's nearest and dearest ending up as collateral damage. > > He is therefore in a much stronger position when he discovers, months > later, that Voldemort would very much like to kill the Potters and > their son who was born at the end of July, because of the *same* > prophecy which got his own wife and child killed. The more cynical among us reckon it's the other way round - DD used Snape as a conduit to inform Voldy of the existence of targets Harry and Neville as part of a ploy to lure Voldy to his destruction. In that scenario it's immaterial whether DD trusts him or not. Better not to, I think, he can't be scanned for info he doesn't have. We're left wondering if Snape is a turncoat (once, twice?) a spy, a double-agent, or triple or what? In a faction fight where the two main protagonists are Legilimancy maestros, it's difficult to imagine anyone can get away with anything. Block probings and you're immediately under suspicion. Unless - partial mind-wipes are engineered by depositing incriminating memories in a Pensieve - and it would require the use of one at each end of the chain. Messy. Have to do some more brooding. Kneasy Not strictly this thread, but a thought impinged while compiling this response. Are the DEs Voldy's invention? Jo once revealed that originally they were The Knights of Walpurgis and then she changed the name. That seems a very Germanic name to me - too German? Hinting at a connection to Grindelwald, perhaps? A nice continuity link that could tie in with an immortal Sally!Spirit, if so. From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 15 16:36:03 2007 From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:36:03 -0000 Subject: Blackwidower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Not more plasmodium, I hope? I blasted it quick with some little yellow pills which made the ceiling go all swirly. Looks stationary enough again now. Dung > > Just try to imagine for a moment that you're a power-hungry psychotic (easier for some than others) and someone has just told you a kid with the clout to pulp you is going to be born; you'd start getting twitchy around *any* pregnant women, wouldn't you? Oh, and you'd utterly forbid the minion who brought you the news to tell > >anybody else. > Kneasy > Well, maybe. > Certainly he might keep the troops in the dark about a possible > vanquisher, but there again he might consider it an opportunity to > demonstrate his supremacy. Depends if he's read the Rules. But what > he'd want more than anything else is information, and to get that > he'd have to pass the word that there were certain classes of > intelligence that he's particularly interested in. Dung I'm going by one of JKR's faq polls: The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him. No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent after Neville's parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret. Which strongly suggests, firstly, that the information was highly restricted (if precious Bella didn't know), and secondly, that who *did* know about the prophecy before OotP will be important. The only certainties we have are Snape, Voldy and DD, and *not* the Lestranges. Kneasy > It's a truism that run-of-the-mill dictators do tend to worry more > about a coup emanating from their own ranks rather than getting a > kicking from the outside opposition. And then there's the fact that > it's a prophecy. Oh, dear. If he's got any historical perspective, then he'll be aware how twisty those things can be. Downfall could end up meaning he trips on a fluffy bunny spilled from a cot and impales himself on his own wand; at least 'vanquish' implies some sort of a contest, but it still could be tricky. One good thing from his perspective - there's no rush. A mewling babe isn't likely to be > a serious competitor for a few years yet. Dung It's irritating. On the one hand it looks as though he's got plenty of time, and on the other, one can't help but wonder why he waited so long between hearing the prophecy and going after the Potters. If it's at all relevant, I can only imagine that it was due to lack of information, that he didn't know who'd calved at the right time. But you said (later on) > Even if he suspects he's a DE and therefore his motives, DD could > well bring Sevvy into Hogwarts on the basis of keeping your enemies > close, but would he trust him as he's supposedly done? Not without > pretty substantial proofs involving frequent and sustained Legilimancy, > info from trusted informers and a long probationary period IMO. > Though if the prophecy is a DD scam he could feel a bit responsible > for Snape's nearest and dearest ending up as collateral damage. And > The more cynical among us reckon it's the other way round - DD used > Snape as a conduit to inform Voldy of the existence of targets Harry and Neville as part of a ploy to lure Voldy to his destruction. In that scenario it's immaterial whether DD trusts him or not. Better > not to, I think, he can't be scanned for info he doesn't have. Dung It still strikes me as possible that it was reading the Potters' names in the magical book which persuaded Snape that he had something to offer DD. Snape tells DD that Voldy sent him to Hogwarts to find out the names of children born at the right time, (Snape may have assumed that there weren't any, that it was his now dead sprog that was the one to whom the prophecy referred), and is surprised to discover the Potters qualify. DD sends him back to Voldy with the names to keep Snape's cover, and sets up the fidelius charm, either (nice!DD) supposing that the Potters will accept his offer to be secret-keeper and that everything would be ok, or, (naughty!DD) since he knows about the marking, he half-heartedly suggests himself as sk if they can't find anybody else, and banks on the spy close to the Potters ratting them out. Kneasy > Stepping back outside the plot - how likely do you think Jo is to get pregnancy and induction into the story? So far we haven't come > across a single gravid female in six books. Dung `Cept Merope. But anyway, given that we'll not be seeing any of it first-hand, it only needs to be mentioned in one line of dialogue. During the writing she's produced three times, so I can't really imagine her being squeamish about it. Kneasy > Um. > Reggie. > The Lexicon surmises that there's only a year or so between him and > Sirius, so it's possible that he could have teamed up with Snapey, even given the propensity of schoolboys to stick mainly with others of their own intake. As usual, we're a bit in the dark on timings. When did he do his sleight of hand stunt with the hosscrux, when did Voldy find out, when did he cop it in the neck? (He's in 3 entries in the Lexicon - 2 say he died in '79, one says '80. That gives a spread of between 2.5 years and zero between the swop and the critical podding period. Seems reasonable (until more info emerges) to go mid- period, unless Voldy was into last-minute hosscrux production on a just-in-case basis. > Does that cause you a problem? Dung (Swop?? Am I being slow?) Trying to pin RW dates on WW events confuses me. I prefer to reference something in canon, e.g. the year of Harry's birth. I date Reggie's death according to the tapestry in OotP, which says some fifteen years previously, which makes it the year of Harry's birth, the year before GH. If you insist on saying '79 or '80, you have to specify which year you're going with for Harry's birth, coz afaik that's either '79 or '80, too isn't it? I don't think you can have Reg dying in '79 and Harry born in '80. But I could be wrong... Dung > > Voldemort is therefore very much displeased with Snape. He orders > > Snape to be killed (that'll learn him!). However, Lucius Malfoy, > > still grateful to Snape for his tip off about the prophecy, > > intervenes (at great personal risk) to persuade Voldemort to spare > > Snape. Lucius's strategy involves pointing out to Voldy how very > > useful a talented young wizard like Snape could be. [14] > Kneasy > An altruistic Malfoy... > Goes against the grain, somewhat. As does his arguing a case > against His Paranoid Evilness. Dung Could still be self-serving I scratch your back you owe me big time stuff. And Narcissa does say that Snape is Lucius's "old friend," (admittedly trying to flatter him, but Sirius implied the friendship too, and there's that twitch in GoF which needs explaining.) I think I discussed this with SSSusan on TOL, and retracted the "at great personal risk" bit. Malfoy doesn't have to stick his neck out much further than reminding Voldy that Snape's a handy chap to have around. It's the kind of thing to cement a friendship though, almost like knocking out a mountain troll. Kneasy > Given the situation (i.e. he's been warned that there's a big problem > on the way) he'd be more likely to zap everybody in sight just to > nip any potential conspiracy in the bud to be on the safe side, > wouldn't he? After all, he's supposed to be topping Snape!Son and > eventually the Potter and Longbottom kids on just that basis - > prevention is better than cure. Dung Again... yes, possibly. But he didn't zap a single DE in the graveyard, despite going on about what a useless bunch they had been. In fact, have any DEs aside from Reg and Karkaroff been offed by their own side? They were both actively trying to leave the DEs, Snape wasn't, he just mucked up a few times. Kneasy > Now Voldy wiping out the missus and off-spring because he > thought Sevvy had let him down by failing to keep a sufficiently close eye on Reggie is a possibility of sorts - a "pour encourage les autres" moment. But Malfoy intervening... dunno. From the text the only person who tries to get Voldy to change his mind is Peter, the rest just suck up to him and probably manoeuvre amongst themselves > to bask in his approval. Dung We only see Lucius and Voldy together in the graveyard, at a moment when Lucius and all the others are very determinedly telling him how fabulous he is and please don't crucio me, your evilness. I mean, if you want to characterise an entire relationship on a couple of lines of ingratiating hem-kissing at a point of high stress, I can't stop you, but it's not necessarily representative. Kneasy > In a faction fight where the two main protagonists are Legilimancy > maestros, it's difficult to imagine anyone can get away with anything. Block probings and you're immediately under suspicion. Unless - partial mind-wipes are engineered by depositing incriminating memories in a Pensieve - and it would require the use of one at each end of the chain. > Messy. Dung Only if your blocking is detected. Snape sees through Draco's inexpert attempt immediately in HBP, but ... hang on, I have canon for this somewhere... Ah yes: "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." - OotP ch 24 UK p469. Suggesting that the blocking *can* remain undetected when you're as good as Snapey. Kneasy > Not strictly this thread, but a thought impinged while compiling > this response. > Are the DEs Voldy's invention? > Jo once revealed that originally they were The Knights of Walpurgis and > then she changed the name. > That seems a very Germanic name to me - too German? Hinting at a > connection to Grindelwald, perhaps? > A nice continuity link that could tie in with an immortal Sally! Spirit, if so. Dung That's another quote that's always irritated me because you can't tell whether she means that *she* re-named them, or whether Voldy did. Grumble grumble. From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Fri Jun 15 17:41:26 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:41:26 -0000 Subject: Straws in the wind? Message-ID: Kneasy > Not strictly this thread, but a thought impinged while compiling > this response. > Are the DEs Voldy's invention? > Jo once revealed that originally they were The Knights of Walpurgis and > then she changed the name. > That seems a very Germanic name to me - too German? Hinting at a > connection to Grindelwald, perhaps? > A nice continuity link that could tie in with an immortal Sally! Spirit, if so. > Dung That's another quote that's always irritated me because you can't tell whether she means that *she* re-named them, or whether Voldy did. Grumble grumble. > Kneasy She renamed them. It was in the Paxman interview before OoP, I think. And then there was her slip(?)/mix-up(?)mind on other things moment(?) when Tom was referred to as the ancestor of Sally - an minor error, but if you've got used to thinking of them as conflated into one being, an easy one to make. Plus ole Sal currently starring as Wizzo of the Month, turning up in some interesting questions the new Wombats; lots of Sal all over the place, it seems. He's gonna be key in the final book, I think - or I'll be sadly disappointed. Kneasy From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 17 15:58:28 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:58:28 -0000 Subject: Walpurgis in the wind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" wrote: > > Kneasy > She renamed them. > It was in the Paxman interview before OoP, I think. I always read that quote as meaning that Voldy renamed them. On one hand, my track record is such that betting against whatever I think is obvious might possibly be a winning strategy. But on another hand, I'm going to enjoy my few remaining days of believing that the Knights of Walpurgis formed as a wizarding 'self-defense' group sometime between one thousand and a couple of hundred years ago, during one of the times when there 'was great oppression' of wizarding folk, which the founders of this particular secret club thought could be discouraged by quick retribution whenever a wizard or witch was harmed, so they undertook to deliver said retribution. Good intentions, violence, anti-Muggle-ism ... very suitable for Voldy to join, take over, change the purpose from 'keep the Muggles subdued' to 'kill the Muggles' to 'kill the Muggle-born'. From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Mon Jun 18 08:55:57 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:55:57 -0000 Subject: Walpurgis in the wind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" > wrote: > > > > > Kneasy > > She renamed them. > > It was in the Paxman interview before OoP, I think. > > I always read that quote as meaning that Voldy renamed them. On one > hand, my track record is such that betting against whatever I think is > obvious might possibly be a winning strategy. > > But on another hand, I'm going to enjoy my few remaining days of > believing that the Knights of Walpurgis formed as a wizarding > 'self-defense' group sometime between one thousand and a couple of > hundred years ago, during one of the times when there 'was great > oppression' of wizarding folk, which the founders of this particular > secret club thought could be discouraged by quick retribution whenever > a wizard or witch was harmed, so they undertook to deliver said > retribution. Good intentions, violence, anti-Muggle-ism ... very > suitable for Voldy to join, take over, change the purpose from 'keep > the Muggles subdued' to 'kill the Muggles' to 'kill the Muggle- born'. > The eleventh hour and something new (for me) to play with. A quick trawl through the Lexicon and Wiki and all sort of interesting connections crop up! "Walpurgis Night (in German folklore) the night of April 30 (May Day's eve), when witches meet on the Brocken mountain and hold revels with their gods..." May day is opposite halloween in the calendar. Named after Saint Walpurga born in Wessex in 710 and surely a candidate for the founding of Durmstrang. (We will be hearing more from Krum.) The Brocken mountains are in Germany, as is the Black Forest where Quirrell went looking for vampires and found Voldy. Dumbledore may well have defeated Grindlewald there as the allies bombed Brocken on April 17 1945. >From 1957 the Brocken constituted a military security zone, not a bad place for Voldy to go to after disappearing from Borgin and Burkes (the cold war in full swing and all). Karkaroff (an eastern block sounding name) could well have met Voldy during this time. Voldy has hidden his HRX in significant places, those missing years must surely hold somewhere that's special to him, possibly the creation of the DEs. Helga is a Germanic name and her cup may well be a HRX, vapour!mort would surely have been drawn to a HRX and the diary, ring and locket were all too close to home. If I were Harry I think it would be worth a look-see, wouldn't you? ...and there be dragons nearby too! Regards Jo From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Tue Jun 19 13:04:13 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:04:13 -0000 Subject: Blackwidower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > > I blasted it quick with some little yellow pills which made the > ceiling go all swirly. Looks stationary enough again now. > Don't trust swirly ceilings. They're as bad as floors that you have to hold onto to stop falling off. > Kneasy > > Well, maybe. > > Certainly he might keep the troops in the dark about a possible > > vanquisher, but there again he might consider it an opportunity to > > demonstrate his supremacy. Depends if he's read the Rules. But what > > he'd want more than anything else is information, and to get that > > he'd have to pass the word that there were certain classes of > > intelligence that he's particularly interested in. > > Dung > I'm going by one of JKR's faq polls: > > The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him. > No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent after Neville's > parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too > closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the > Lestranges were not in on the secret. > > Which strongly suggests, firstly, that the information was highly > restricted (if precious Bella didn't know), and secondly, that who > *did* know about the prophecy before OotP will be important. The only > certainties we have are Snape, Voldy and DD, and *not* the > Lestranges. > Yeah, but the situation had changed by the time of the 'let's go and play at the Longbottoms' incident. They wanted to know what had happened to their glorious leader. Neville was not their main interest, in fact he couldn't be "the one" because "the one" had already done something nasty to their Lord and Master. Neville was therefore irrelevant but his parents might know something since he had been considered to be a possibility for the starring role. Highly likely then, that they'd been involved in discussions, plans and had knowledge of why DD picked on these two particular kids and how any protective spells DD may have emplaced may have worked. A long time ago, I posited that Voldy would insist that he would deal with the two sprogs personally, and he wouldn't thank any ultra-keen DE sticking his nose (or wand) in. For why? Power. It's what Voldy is all about. The contender has a power he knows not, but I'll bet he very much wants to know what it is and whether he can identify it, develop it or even steal it for himself. It's the rationale behind Possession Theory, he wants into their minds to suss out this 'power'. So he wouldn't want anyone else queering his pitch or, horror upon horror, maybe getting useful info that one day could be used against him. Some information was widely known among the DEs, it must have been, why else drop in on the Longbottoms? That they did suggests that they knew Neville was one of the critical pair and his parents would know what had happened to Voldy at GH. > > Dung > It's irritating. On the one hand it looks as though he's got plenty > of time, and on the other, one can't help but wonder why he waited so > long between hearing the prophecy and going after the Potters. If > it's at all relevant, I can only imagine that it was due to lack of > information, that he didn't know who'd calved at the right time. > What's also irritating is that we're none too sure of just when the two families went into hiding. It makes a difference to the theorising. Was Voldy looking for them for 15 months (unlikely IMO) or did something stir him up later? If so, what? Puppetmaster!DD? If DD was in the business of setting a Voldy trap then it'd be no damn good unless Voldy had some idea of where the bait was. By the same token, unless the families were planning on staying in hiding for years, the situation had to be brought to a conclusion. Either accidentally or deliberately the news must eventually leak. DD would prefer a leak he could control, either through a known Voldy agent or one of his own. > > Dung > It still strikes me as possible that it was reading the Potters' > names in the magical book which persuaded Snape that he had something > to offer DD. Snape tells DD that Voldy sent him to Hogwarts to find > out the names of children born at the right time, (Snape may have > assumed that there weren't any, that it was his now dead sprog that > was the one to whom the prophecy referred), and is surprised to > discover the Potters qualify. > > DD sends him back to Voldy with the names to keep Snape's cover, and > sets up the fidelius charm, either (nice!DD) supposing that the > Potters will accept his offer to be secret-keeper and that everything > would be ok, or, (naughty!DD) since he knows about the marking, he > half-heartedly suggests himself as sk if they can't find anybody > else, and banks on the spy close to the Potters ratting them out. > Why not say that there were no candidates of the required vintage? Much sneakier, it lulls Voldy into a sense of false security - unless DD isn't quite sure of Snapey. The SK is a whole different other SFAIC. So much so that I wonder if it was designed to fail. > Dung > (Swop?? Am I being slow?) > Trying to pin RW dates on WW events confuses me. I prefer to > reference something in canon, e.g. the year of Harry's birth. I date > Reggie's death according to the tapestry in OotP, which says some > fifteen years previously, which makes it the year of Harry's birth, > the year before GH. If you insist on saying '79 or '80, you have to > specify which year you're going with for Harry's birth, coz afaik > that's either '79 or '80, too isn't it? I don't think you can have > Reg dying in '79 and Harry born in '80. But I could be wrong... Why not a swop? Yep, sorting out HP dates are a pain in the arse, I agree. Not only are we mostly reliant on calculating out which year at school each book refers to and then adding 11, there's also Jo's notoriously shaky maths to contend with. It do make it difficult. Whenever figuring out recent history, the what happened when, there's always a suspicion that it'll all come crashing down when Jo pipes up with "Er.. now let me think..." Kneasy From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 20 09:34:26 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:34:26 -0000 Subject: Frank Bryce's Death - query Message-ID: I've been reviewing DD's HRX identification and have come across an *error* which is bugging me and for which I can see no *obvious* implications. DD says Voldy got the idea of using Nagini as a HRX after Voldy used her to "kill an old muggle man" for which I take it he meant Frank Bryce in the opening of GoF. Yet DD *knows* Voldy used his wand for that murder as Harry reports his appearance during the Priori Incantatem incident. Is there another death to which DD is refering that I've forgotten about? If not why would DD make this error? Regards Jo From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 20 12:55:19 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:55:19 -0000 Subject: Frank Bryce's Death - query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > I've been reviewing DD's HRX identification and have come across an > *error* which is bugging me and for which I can see no *obvious* > implications. > > DD says Voldy got the idea of using Nagini as a HRX after Voldy used > her to "kill an old muggle man" for which I take it he meant Frank > Bryce in the opening of GoF. Yet DD *knows* Voldy used his wand for > that murder as Harry reports his appearance during the Priori > Incantatem incident. > > Is there another death to which DD is refering that I've forgotten > about? If not why would DD make this error? > Options: 1. It's not Frank Bryce he's on about. 2. DD's guessing. 3. For reasons yet unknown DD's pulling the wool over Harry's eyes again. 4. For reasons yet unknown Jo's pulling the wool over our eyes. 5. Jo's lost the plot. Kneasy From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 20 13:17:41 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:17:41 -0000 Subject: Frank Bryce's Death - query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jo: > I've been reviewing DD's HRX identification and have come across an > *error* which is bugging me and for which I can see no *obvious* > implications. > > DD says Voldy got the idea of using Nagini as a HRX after Voldy used > her to "kill an old muggle man" for which I take it he meant Frank > Bryce in the opening of GoF. Yet DD *knows* Voldy used his wand for > that murder as Harry reports his appearance during the Priori > Incantatem incident. > > Is there another death to which DD is refering that I've forgotten > about? If not why would DD make this error? > Pippin: I don't think it's an error, any more than it was an error for DD to say that Voldemort killed Cedric when he knows it was actually Wormtail using Voldemort's wand. Nagini told Voldemort that Frank was eavesdropping, and one may surmise that she devoured the body after it was dead. So Voldemort did use her to kill though she was not the physical instrument of death. Pippin From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 20 14:25:08 2007 From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:25:08 -0000 Subject: Blackwidower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Dung > > I'm going by one of JKR's faq polls: > > > > The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him. > > No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent after Neville's > > parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too > > closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the > > Lestranges were not in on the secret. > > > > Which strongly suggests, firstly, that the information was highly > > restricted (if precious Bella didn't know), and secondly, that who > > *did* know about the prophecy before OotP will be important. The only > > certainties we have are Snape, Voldy and DD, and *not* the > > Lestranges. > > > > Yeah, but the situation had changed by the time of the 'let's go and > play at the Longbottoms' incident. They wanted to know what had > happened to their glorious leader. Neville was not their main interest, > in fact he couldn't be "the one" because "the one" had already done > something nasty to their Lord and Master. But but but JKR specifically said that the Longbottom attack team *didn't* know about the prophecy when they went on their crucioing spree, and so they didn't know there even *was* a "one", let alone a potential other. Neville was therefore > irrelevant but his parents might know something since he had been > considered to be a possibility for the starring role. Highly likely > then, that they'd been involved in discussions, plans and had > knowledge of why DD picked on these two particular kids and how > any protective spells DD may have emplaced may have worked. Um isn't that precisely what JKR ruled *out*? They can't have suspected that the Longbottoms were "involved in discussions" since they didn't even know that there was a prophecy to be discussed. The person who suggested they target Frank and Alice may have known, but the ones who did the crucioing didn't. > Some information was widely known among the DEs, it must have > been, why else drop in on the Longbottoms? That they did suggests > that they knew Neville was one of the critical pair and his parents > would know what had happened to Voldy at GH. But it beggars belief that something so important, that was "widely known" amongst the DEs didn't make it to the ears of Bella or hubby, because the Lestranges very specifically *didn't* know. Besides, "I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it" suggests that who *did* know is going to be important. Have some chocolate; they're gin flavoured. > What's also irritating is that we're none too sure of just when the two > families went into hiding. It makes a difference to the theorising. > Was Voldy looking for them for 15 months (unlikely IMO) or did > something stir him up later? If so, what? Puppetmaster!DD? > If DD was in the business of setting a Voldy trap then it'd be no damn > good unless Voldy had some idea of where the bait was. By the same > token, unless the families were planning on staying in hiding for years, > the situation had to be brought to a conclusion. Either accidentally or > deliberately the news must eventually leak. DD would prefer a leak > he could control, either through a known Voldy agent or one of his own. Actually, we don't even know that the Longbottoms went into hiding at all, and we don't know if Voldy even knew they had a son of the right age. All we know is that the Potters knew that Voldy was after them and went into hiding. I've always wondered exactly why Voldy chose Harry over Neville (assuming he knew of Neville's existence), and I don't trust DD's implication that it was just because he was a half- blood and Neville was a pure-blood. There's more to it, I'm sure, but just what I don't know. From dk59us at dk59us.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 20 18:56:17 2007 From: dk59us at dk59us.yahoo.invalid (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:56:17 -0000 Subject: Frank Bryce's Death - query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: pippin_999 wrote: > I don't think it's an error, any more than it was an error for DD to > say that Voldemort killed Cedric when he knows it was actually > Wormtail using Voldemort's wand. Nagini told Voldemort that Frank > was eavesdropping, and one may surmise that she devoured the body > after it was dead. So Voldemort did use her to kill though she was > not the physical instrument of death. Now Eustace_Scrubb: A minor quibble, this (and without the book at hand, I am relying on an increasingly feeble memory): At the end of GOF doesn't Dumbledore tell Harry that he (Dumbledore) had read of Frank Bryce's murder in the muggle papers (and also imply that no one in the Ministry paid attention to such stuff). Had Nagini consumed Frank's corpse, he probably would have been on a missing persons list at best (if anyone in Little Hangleton had bothered to notice he was missing), not written up as a murder victim. Makes one wish we had a paragraph somewhere about what the locals made of old Frank's demise...did they notice the same look of surprise and fear on his features that had been noted on the Riddles' faces 50 years earlier? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 20 19:01:07 2007 From: carolynwhite2 at carolynwhite2.yahoo.invalid (carolynwhite2) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:01:07 -0000 Subject: 'chained these 12 years..' Message-ID: Just plodding my way through again, and have been struck by this line in the 2nd prophecy. Harry never recounts this prophecy word for word to DD, only the gist of it, so only Harry knows this is what Trelawny actually said. There isn't a handy Pensieve memory as in the first prophecy. It really has never been explained why Peter did spend 12 years as a rat, as far as we know not transforming back to a man at any point. Nor why he hid in the milk jug in Hagrid's hut, apparently waiting for something to happen despite the terrible risk of having Lupin and Sirius very near by all that year, not to mention a very intelligent cat. The wording of this line of the prophecy would appear to indicate that Peter didn't have much choice in the matter. Someone decided he had a role to play, had to sit and wait it out at someone's command. And the events in Shrieking Shack II were the catalyst; they broke the spell it seems to me. Possible alternatives: - could support ESE! Lupin or ESE!Sirius. Either of them could have cursed Peter to the effect that next time he became a rat, he stayed a rat until either of them released the spell. Why? Because he can reveal that either of them were the ones that really betrayed the Potters? If they couldn't get to kill him personally, they could stop him speaking out. (It's not clear how good at communicating he is as a rat). So, Peter hangs around trying to protect HP, including his finest hour hanging on to Goyle's finger. Finally, Frodo-like, he sets off for his personal trip to Mt Doom.. - much more likely it supports Puppetmaster!DD. Yet another strand to his long-range planning, and unlikely to have been discussed in advance with Peter. Same scenario, a DD-special protection spell (bit like the one he 'arranged' with Lily) which ensures Peter stays a rat until he's released. DD fixes for Lupin to be at Hogwarts that year as soon as he hears of Sirius' escape, knowing that they are the only ones likely to perform the counter-spell. DD has decided that it's time little frightened Peter was manipulated into being another chink in Voldie's armour when next required. Carolyn, ..in the mood for the blackest of conspiracy theories From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 20 19:21:32 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:21:32 -0000 Subject: Blackwidower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > Swopped your paragraphs round a bit... > > > Dung > > > I'm going by one of JKR's faq polls: > > But but but JKR specifically said that the Longbottom attack team > *didn't* know about the prophecy when they went on their crucioing > spree, and so they didn't know there even *was* a "one", let alone a > potential other. > > Actually, we don't even know that the Longbottoms went into hiding at > all, and we don't know if Voldy even knew they had a son of the right > age. All we know is that the Potters knew that Voldy was after them > and went into hiding. I've always wondered exactly why Voldy chose > Harry over Neville (assuming he knew of Neville's existence), and I > don't trust DD's implication that it was just because he was a half- > blood and Neville was a pure-blood. There's more to it, I'm sure, but > just what I don't know. > > Um isn't that precisely what JKR ruled *out*? They can't have > suspected that the Longbottoms were "involved in discussions" since > they didn't even know that there was a prophecy to be discussed. The > person who suggested they target Frank and Alice may have known, but > the ones who did the crucioing didn't. > > But it beggars belief that something so important, that was "widely > known" amongst the DEs didn't make it to the ears of Bella or hubby, > because the Lestranges very specifically *didn't* know. Besides, "I > can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the > prophecy and how many people knew about it" suggests that who *did* > know is going to be important. > > Have some chocolate; they're gin flavoured. > This needs more than gin. Where's me armagnac? Think of what it implies if the Longbottoms didn't go into hiding. DD is lying to Harry again, either about there being two possibles based on birth date and about Voldy picking Harry because he identified with him, or Neville was a possibility but DD kept it very close to his chest while placing Harry at ground zero. Does not compute - *unless* there is some other identifier we don't know about. Well, we know that Nev was born at about the right date, so it puts him on the spot so far as timing is concerned. Nobody would take the risk of parading him down the High St, would they? So logically one would expect Mr & Mrs L to retire to their bunker. If they didn't, there's something funny going on. I have difficulty believing that the DEs picking on the L's was sheer coincidence. Somebody knew enough to consider them a potential source of information. But this holds true even if they had been keeping their heads down - and that's what's hinted in OoP - the DEs pounced 'when everyone thought it was safe'. Safe for whom? The Longbottoms or the WW at large? I'd assumed the former, 'cos there were still large numbers of Voldy's cheering section running around loose. Difficult to believe that the DEs knew nothing about the prophecy and I can't really see how it would affect the plot all that much if they did. So why the corrections and clarifications? In fact (heresy coming up) these ex-cathedra statements/explanations that have popped up on her site.... I've long suspected that at least some of them are possibly plot patches or post-facto adjustments... that on reflection the textual canon doesn't quite fit, so it's shuffled a bit and nailed down in that corner like a carpet that isn't quite square - and another corner springs up elsewhere as the adjustment itself creates further logical questions. This does not bode well for the final book. I've got a bad feeling about this. And it ain't helped any when there's talk of a 'revised edition' before the last volume is even published. Kneasy From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Thu Jun 21 07:56:54 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 07:56:54 -0000 Subject: 'chained these 12 years..' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "carolynwhite2" wrote: >Just plodding my way through again, and have been struck by this line >in the 2nd prophecy. Harry never recounts this prophecy word for word >to DD, only the gist of it, so only Harry knows this is what Trelawny >actually said. There isn't a handy Pensieve memory as in the first >prophecy. Talisman staggers in at ~3:550am: This is old ground for my inflamed brain. I know I've written it up with lot's more citation, but can't recall where it is, just now. This is all off the top of my head, with a few easy cites added. I know you'll all be heart-broken to hear that I lost an unfortunately unsaved version earlier this evening--thanks to an unexpected Microsoft closure. So, things are missing--and at this point in the night I'm not proof- reading--or likely even coherent--but here's at you: As far as I am concerned, the Second Prophecy has always been, not only evidence of DD's handiwork, but a massive broadside to Rowling's Muggle-pacifying doublespeak nonsense about the Prophecy #1 having only come about because Voldemort *chose* to believe it--and act on it. Even more important than the fact that DD never got the verbatim version (well, he didn't need it, did he? He planted it in Trelawney the same way he planted #2, i.e. possession or some yet-to-be- disclosed quasi-possession/ventriloquism technique) is the fact that Harry FORGETS ALL ABOUT IT--as soon as Hermione and Ron tell him Buckbeak is for the chop--and BEFORE he can tell them about it (PoA 325). As a matter of literary fact, the Second Prophecy plays NO part whatsoever in the events that unfold the rest of the evening. It plays NO role at all in the decisions made by ANY character. It isn't until the NEXT DAY when ALL of the significant events of Wormtail's escape are stone cold OVER that Harry recalls the prophetic utterance (PoA 426). By which time Wormtail is off and running for Albania. And, despite it's source, DD neither doubts it nor even seems surprised, let alone worried. "How could Dumbledore take this so calmly?" (PoA 426). Indeed, all the Second Prophecy turns out to be is a big fat FYI--for the observant reader as well as Harry. >It really has never been explained why Peter did spend 12 years as a >rat, as far as we know not transforming back to a man at any point. We are shown that, had Wormtail allowed anyone to know he was still alive, loyal DEs would have popped a cap in him for his perceived role in LV's downfall. He's the "double-crosser [who] double-crossed them" (PoA 368). Alternatively, had the law-abiding side of the WW noticed that he was still around, it would have raised a lot of sticky questions. Like, do you want your finger back? And, maybe a reconsideration of Black's incarceration. Hey, maybe even a trial. Why *would* an innocent man fake his death? *Who* actually did *what* during that fateful showdown? Let's just have a look at those wands, shall we? And, once anyone asked for Sirius's two-cents, there would be that little matter of who ratted-out the Potters, too. He wouldn't have kept quiet to let Wormtail off the hook. I'm sure Wormtail would also expect DD to want to chat. Little does our whiskered friend know that the contents of his poor rodent brain have been open all along >Nor why he hid in the milk jug in Hagrid's hut, apparently waiting >for something to happen despite the terrible risk of having Lupin and >Sirius very near by all that year, not to mention a very intelligent >cat. I rather think Hagrid had him on ice. No, I don't believe in coincidence. Not in a well-crafted mystery. Not unless your author sucks--and Rowling deserves more credit than that, by now. Plus, there is the force of all the rest of the evidence. Rowling made it clear, in an early interview, that we aren't to think Hagrid is stupid. DD trusts him for a reason. It's also evident that he never leaks info unless it forwards DD's plans that he do so. (E.g. Between his own creature expertise, the dead roosters, and Aragog's knowledge--Hagrid MUST have known the CoS creature was a Basilisk--but he keeps mum even when it means a sojourn in Azkaban-- cos it's DD`s plan, isn`t it? He never lets slip about Harry's parents being in the Order--or describes their efforts against LV, even though he has ample evidence of how the Dursleys have portrayed them to Harry all these years. Etc. Nope, his *leaks* are always strategic. They always advance, DD's plans.) >The wording of this line of the prophecy would appear to indicate >that Peter didn't have much choice in the matter. He didn't. He was trapped whichever way he turned. Facing the DEs, the Ministry, or DD, jointly or severally, would have meant his ruin. He couldn't function anywhere in the WW. He had to hide out. Did he ever un-transfigure--just for a moment--in the bushes somewhere? Who cares? It wouldn't substantially change his lot. What he really needed was LV, back, powerful and on his side. Rowling means us to accept Sirius's explanation (PoA 370)--that Wormtail was hanging around with a wizarding family (albeit as far away from the DEs as possible) in order to hear any news of a possible LV come back. I won't be surprised at all if we learn how he came to be a Weasley pet. Rowling fixes it so that DD conveniently discloses LV's whereabouts to Harry--at the end of year 2--just in time to trickle the info to Ron/Scabbers by the onset of year 3. Alas, Scabbers has insufficient time to pluck up his scant courage and make a plan--hard on comes the news that Sirius is running loose. (Yes, DD had a hand in that, too.) Thanks to his position in the Weasley household, Scabbers hears all about Sirius's ravings, etc. But, unlike the Weasleys, Wormtail knows Sirius isn't out to harm Harry. Oh no, Wormtail knows just exactly who Sirius wants to murder. Him. Better lie low and let the Ministry take Sirius out of the way before he, Wormtail, sets off alone for the continent. (By the way, I do think International Apparation is illegal (WOMBAT III question 7.6)that's why Wormtail and LV hoof it back, too. Can't be setting off any international alarms ) Finally though, things just get too hot--he isn't even safe at Hogwarts anymore--so Wormtail decides to fake his death, again, and head off. Somehow he ends up in Hagrid's pitcher. Hmmmm. And Hagrid just happens to break a similar pitcher while Hermione is standing close by, helpfully ready to pick the other off the shelf.... Uh-huh. >Someone decided he had a role to play, >had to sit and wait it out at someone's command. Oh, he was part of someone's plan, alright. Someone who had been feeding unwitting Wormy information all along--most recently, and importantly, via the Harry/Ron network. Someone who needed just such an unsuspecting *loaded* tool to bring Voldemort back the second time. Someone who had previously sent characterless Quirrell to fetch the nasty boy back, just so they could throw Harry in his turbaned- covered path. You know, make the Dark Lord worry about that Prophecy some more, give him a dose of special burning power (which Wormtail would explain as it had been explained to Ron via Harry via DD); Someone who would tease the Dark Lord with the Philosopher's Stone and then destroy it so that if (read *when*) the bugger got a second chance, he would come back knowing he had to use an *ancient magic* body. Yes, someone who instigated the return of the TWT, just specially for that year; and then whispered something into nosey info-laden Bertha's shell-like ear to set her on the fateful path to Albania, too Mightn't that make a Dark Lord eager to exploit the happenchance of the now-rare, and always dangerous TWT? Oh, yeah. Someone who was *as* committed to getting Harry's hot blood into the corporeal recipe, as the Prophecy-paranoid Dark Lord was. Gleam, etc. Wormtail was surely part of someone's plan. But he was compelled, not commanded. >And the events in Shrieking Shack II were the catalyst; they broke >the spell it seems to me. The events of the SS were a total, professional, Order SpecOp mission. I hope we don't have to review all that old evidence of Lupin and Snape's collusion. Or how very, totally, consummately, safe Lupin was that entire night...do we? >Possible alternatives: >- could support ESE! Lupin or ESE!Sirius. Either of them could have >cursed Peter to the effect that next time he became a rat, he stayed >a rat until either of them released the spell. Why? Because he can >reveal that either of them were the ones that really betrayed the >Potters? If they couldn't get to kill him personally, they could stop >him speaking out. (It's not clear how good at communicating he is as >a rat). So, Peter hangs around trying to protect HP, including his >finest hour hanging on to Goyle's finger. Finally, Frodo-like, he >sets off for his personal trip to Mt Doom.. ESE!Anyone who could get an AnimagusFreeze curse in (which we should have heard of by now, were it ever going to crop up in 7) could as easily have snuffed the rat, and would have. >- much more likely it supports Puppetmaster!DD. Yet another strand to >his long-range planning, and unlikely to have been discussed in >advance with Peter. Same scenario, a DD-special protection spell (bit >like the one he 'arranged' with Lily) which ensures Peter stays a rat >until he's released. DD fixes for Lupin to be at Hogwarts that year >as soon as he hears of Sirius' escape, knowing that they are the only >ones likely to perform the counter-spell. DD has decided that it's >time little frightened Peter was manipulated into being another chink >in Voldie's armour when next required. Right church, wrong pew. It's Guilty! DD (always said in the most affectionate way) all the way. However, the only things DD did to protect Peter were to 1) let Sirius take the fall (which had the elegant effect of keeping Sirius from mucking up Harry's foster care, too) and 2) steer Wormy into the Weasley bosom--so he could unwittingly be pumped with whatever information DD wanted him to eventually carry back to Voldemort. Yes, of course DD had a hand in Sirius's inexplicable escape, too. It's part of the Malfoy revenge plan. I believe I've gone over all this years ago--but apparently not everyone was listening. ;) Malfoy gets up off his sexy bad-boy bottom and storms out of Hogwarts, at the end of year 2, filled--for the first time--with an unholy desire to squash Harry like a flobberworm. What to do? What to do? Can't just AK the brat. We all know what happened last time someone tried that... Really don't want to try anything like it...but still... Plus, The Malfoy has a position in society to consider. How does Malfoy usually effect his plans? A nice cat's paw.... Where might one of those be? This is where Lucius's old pal Snape slips in, at DD's behest, with a helpful little hint about how to piss Black off...and make him head for Hogwarts (should he ever...ehem...get the chance)...and just how this could resolve Lucius's recent insomnia. Did Snape tell Lucius about Wormtail? Sure. Unlike Bella, Lucius isn't at all unhappy that LV was out of the picture. He's got no zealot's beef with Wormtail--not that Wormtail would know it. Nope, he couldn't care less what happens to Wormtail. And if using him as bait will get Sirius--and so the Dementors--in proximity with scar boy, by all means, use him. In any event, Fudge is Imperio'd (as opposed to DD deciding he is -- alas--not being Imperio'd *this time* during events in Book 5). Eyes not quite focused, Fudge totters out to Azkaban Fortress--and that very same day--Voila! Sirius *somehow* gets free. It's amazing how easy it actually is--to escape Azkaban--when the Dementors have been instructed to let you out. I've explaned, long ago, how, if you read PoA, you'll see that the Dementors only attack when Harry and Sirius are in the same area. They never go after Sirius, alone, when he's running around on the grounds,etc., all year. Even though, unlike Sirius's feeble explanation, the Dementors clearly demonstrate that they *always* know who Sirius is, even in dog form (PoA 352). No. Their orders are to wait until Sirius is close to Harry, and then to go for Harry--first and foremost Harry--Sirius is strictly *afters.* (See e.g. the Quiddich game where Sirius is in the stands, and on the Grounds the night of the SS). Clearly, the plan is to let the Dementor's take care of Harry, and then claim his worse-than-death as unfortunate collateral damage in the effort to get that notorious killer, Black. Safe, effective, and socially acceptable. >From DD's pov, it's time for Sirius to be out (setting up the next phase/Volde-proofing results in OoP, etc.), and for Wormtail to be off for Albania. So, as usual, DD plants the idea, and then uses it to his own advantage. Not to mention getting lots of lovely training for Harry. DD definitely brings Lupin in-house for this mission. The DADA postion is always part of DD's plan. Whatever jinx LV put on it has long been gone. Either it is (was) DD's own brand of *revelatory* jinx, or more likely, DD just outed the person in the seat, for his own reasons, by his own cleverness. The WOMBATS III played to this too. It reminded test-takers that a jinx is the weakest form of negative magic. Plus, we have seen all series that the reason the DADAs can't stay is that their darkest secret is always revealed. LV didn't set that up. He would never have sent Barty, Jr. in for that. Clearly it's not his jinx at work. But, it *was* important for him to think his old (non-revelatory) jinx was still in effect. Lupin is Order, and no more evil that the next guy, likely less. That's why Snape circulats the WW information. DD's orders. We don't even have reaon to think it actually made any difference to Lupin's reputation. Obviously people know he is a WW or he'd have no employment problems. But, like the Prank, it passes as an excuse for Harry. And, the fact that Lupin leaves, at all, plays to LV's expectations. Team DD needs to keep up the appearance that LV's jinx still controls the seat. That, and DD wants someone else in the seat next time, too. Why? Because when LV comes home in a few weeks--all full of planted TWT info--he'll rely on his old jinx as an entr?e for his faithful servant--in order to get Harry's blood--which DD has made him want to the exclusion of all else--thanks to the Prophecy plus GH and the events of PS/SS (supra). DD expects the DADA impersonation ruse--which is why he asks Moody to take the DADA mission in year 4. An old, well known, warrior to take the hit. The ruckus at chez Moody is a tocsin call--the plan is off and running. (Note how LV & Co. must have expected the attack to register on some law enforcement system. Otherwise why make all the exagerated *extra ruckus* to make it look like *just crazy old Moody again?* Yet, by doing so, they confirmed to DD, all the more, that the game was afoot.) Rowling is a very slick plot weaver. DD was expecting the come back, of course. He arranged it. He knew where LV was and what he was up to, at every step. Including the events in Little Hangleton--where, thanks to Muggle repellant charms-- DD owned a certain Manor, read the local paper, and, till then, employed a certain (Hagrid-like) falsely-accused Muggle groundskeeper. Ah, Riddle Manor. Purchased, I daresay, long before Harry was even born. The perfect stop-over for Dark Lords traveling through Britain, who might also be expected to have a sudden interest in their father's old bones. It all fits...like a silver glove. Talisman, reminding you that history is full of real conspiracies--as are 7 book mystery stories. From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Thu Jun 21 13:35:49 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 13:35:49 -0000 Subject: Frank Bryce's Death - query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pippin wrote: I don't think it's an error, any more than it was an error for DD to say that Voldemort killed Cedric when he knows it was actually Wormtail using Voldemort's wand. Nagini told Voldemort that Frank was eavesdropping, and one may surmise that she devoured the body after it was dead. So Voldemort did use her to kill though she was not the physical instrument of death. Mooseming: I have several problems with this explanation. Voldy *told* Wormtail to kill Cedric he did not instruct Nagini to kill Frank. Also, we know that Nagini was eavesdropping but DD doesn't, I'm not sure anyone does. In the opening chapter of GoF we see the scene from a narrators pov. In the next chapter Harry wakes after his scar hurts and recalls a *dream* in which he simply remembers that "there had been a snake on a hearth-rug". He then sends Sirius a letter telling him that his scar hurts but not about the dream. DD knows about the scar hurting because Sirius tells him but at no point does he indicate he knows anything about that particular dream. In a subsequent dream that Harry has in Divination he tells DD about a snake by Voldy's chair and also about him Crucio-ing Wormtail with his wand. DD is very interested in the fact that Voldy can *hold* a wand. At the same meeting DD tells Harry he knows of Frank's disappearance because he reads muggle newspapers. Subsequently Harry reports seeing Frank during the Priori Incantatem incident. So DD has all the relevant information to deduce Voldy killed Frank and none to assume that Nagini did or was otherwise responsible. Eustace_Scrubb wrote: A minor quibble, this (and without the book at hand, I am relying on an increasingly feeble memory): At the end of GOF doesn't Dumbledore tell Harry that he (Dumbledore) had read of Frank Bryce's murder in the muggle papers (and also imply that no one in the Ministry paid attention to such stuff). Had Nagini consumed Frank's corpse, he probably would have been on a missing persons list at best (if anyone in Little Hangleton had bothered to notice he was missing), not written up as a murder victim. Makes one wish we had a paragraph somewhere about what the locals made of old Frank's demise...did they notice the same look of surprise and fear on his features that had been noted on the Riddles' faces 50 years earlier? Mooseming: The chapter you recall is `The Pensieve' in GoF, DD states that there have been three "disappearances": Bertha, Barty and Frank (which he reads in a muggle newspaper). None of their bodies have been found at this point, I think Pippin is correct in believing Nagini ate Frank's corpse and probably Bertha's too! Kneasy wrote: Options: 1. It's not Frank Bryce he's on about. 2. DD's guessing. 3. For reasons yet unknown DD's pulling the wool over Harry's eyes again. 4. For reasons yet unknown Jo's pulling the wool over our eyes. 5. Jo's lost the plot. Mooseming: 1. If not Frank then who? 2. Guessing what? That Nagini is a HRX. Fair enough but that Frank was the catalyst for the idea, why? Frank's death might have been the `soul-splitter' used to make Nagini!HRX but I cannot see that it would have prompted Voldy to consider the inadvisable and risky business of confiding "a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself". 3. Ah you mean he's lying! ;-) Attempting to divert Harry's thoughts from what *would* make using a living being an attractive, indeed achievable, option. The thoughts that might lead to wondering if it had been done before, perhaps by accident. Those thoughts. 4. AKA a clue? 5. I sincerely hope not! Regards Jo From arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 23 15:33:45 2007 From: arrowsmithbt at kneasy.yahoo.invalid (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:33:45 -0000 Subject: Frank Bryce's Death - query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > I've been reviewing DD's HRX identification and have come across an > *error* which is bugging me and for which I can see no *obvious* > implications. > > DD says Voldy got the idea of using Nagini as a HRX after Voldy used > her to "kill an old muggle man" for which I take it he meant Frank > Bryce in the opening of GoF. Yet DD *knows* Voldy used his wand for > that murder as Harry reports his appearance during the Priori > Incantatem incident. > Thinking it over..... There isn't really any conflict - a Hx is a fragment of soul placed inside something else - but the something else (locket, cup or whatever) isn't the killing instrument. And we're told quite explicitly that Frank dies in a blast of green light, so it's the wand wot dun it. So, Voldy zaps old Frank, tears his own soul along the dotted line, plonks it in Nagini, and Bilius is your uncle. All this without any preparation and while Voldy is too weak to scratch his own bum. No, I don't like Hxs as a plot device - at all. As for how DD knows what went on in the flickering firelight of the Riddle mansion - well, who else was there? And who could well be one of DD's little helpers? Peter, of course. Kneasy From spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 23 16:05:18 2007 From: spotthedungbeetle at dungrollin.yahoo.invalid (dungrollin) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 16:05:18 -0000 Subject: Blackwidower!Snape - repost from TOL (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Think of what it implies if the Longbottoms didn't go into hiding. > DD is lying to Harry again, either about there being two possibles > based on birth date and about Voldy picking Harry because he > identified with him, or Neville was a possibility but DD kept it very > close to his chest while placing Harry at ground zero. > Does not compute - *unless* there is some other identifier we > don't know about. > No, not necessarily. The Potters knew that Voldy was after them, but we don't know whether they knew from DD because DD guessed that Voldy having the first line of the prophecy and Harry and Neville's dates of birth would put them in danger, or whether a certain double agent warned them of Voldemort's specific intentions. If one of DD's "useful spies" warned them that Voldy was specifically after the Potters and not the Longbottoms, there would not necessarily be any need for them to go into hiding. Voldy could still choose. I have difficulty believing that > the DEs picking on the L's was sheer coincidence. Somebody knew > enough to consider them a potential source of information. Sure, I've got no problem with that, I think so too. I just don't think that it means lots and lots and lots of DEs knew about the prophecy. > But this holds true even if they had been keeping their heads down - > and that's what's hinted in OoP - the DEs pounced 'when everyone > thought it was safe'. Safe for whom? The Longbottoms or the WW at > large? I'd assumed the former, 'cos there were still large numbers of > Voldy's cheering section running around loose. I'd assumed the latter. Not many people knew that the Potters knew Voldy was after them (someone says so in PoA, in the conversation Harry overhears in the three broomsticks) so it's hardly likely that "everyone" knew the Longbottoms were on the list either. If, in fact, they were. > Difficult to believe that the DEs knew nothing about the prophecy > and I can't really see how it would affect the plot all that much if they > did. So why the corrections and clarifications? Ah, but it does make a difference if SCOWLING POTIONEER holds, coz that implies it was Lucius (or at an outside stretch Narcissa) who sent the Lestranges to the Longbottoms. It puts Neville in a similar position with respect to Lucius as Harry is with respect to Snape. From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 23 17:36:35 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:36:35 -0000 Subject: Frank Bryce's Death - query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Barry Arrowsmith" wrote: > > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > > > I've been reviewing DD's HRX identification and have come across an > > *error* which is bugging me and for which I can see no *obvious* > > implications. > > > > DD says Voldy got the idea of using Nagini as a HRX after Voldy used > > her to "kill an old muggle man" for which I take it he meant Frank > > Bryce in the opening of GoF. Yet DD *knows* Voldy used his wand for > > that murder as Harry reports his appearance during the Priori > > Incantatem incident. > > > > Thinking it over..... > There isn't really any conflict - a Hx is a fragment of soul placed > inside something else - but the something else (locket, cup or whatever) > isn't the killing instrument. And we're told quite explicitly that Frank > dies in a blast of green light, so it's the wand wot dun it. > So, Voldy zaps old Frank, tears his own soul along the dotted line, plonks > it in Nagini, and Bilius is your uncle. > > All this without any preparation and while Voldy is too weak to scratch > his own bum. No, I don't like Hxs as a plot device - at all. > > As for how DD knows what went on in the flickering firelight of the Riddle > mansion - well, who else was there? And who could well be one of DD's > little helpers? > Peter, of course. > > Kneasy > Agreed but my conflict comes not from if Voldy killed Frank (he did) but why DD would cite Nagini's participation as the event that gave him the idea for an animate HRX. Your Wormtail as squealer certainly helps with how DD might have the information at all however. No, I have cheerfully come to the conclusion that DD is indulging in a little bit of misdirection. Something gave Voldy the idea but it wasn't Nagini. The timing is about right though. Post GoF corporeal Voldy becomes aware of his connection to Harry, at last he's grasped what DD knew from the moment he saw the scar on Harry's head, Harry is an accidental HRX. So Voldy has his four Hogwart's trophies, plus the gaunt ring but is down one diary. To regain the magic number seven he co-opts Nagini because *Harry!Crux* has given him the idea. Not that DD is about to let *that* piece of information out, so he creates a cover story which doesn't really stand up to close scrutiny. DD claims in CoS that the diary is what prompted him to think Voldy had indulged in a little light HRXing. Phooey says I. He knew when he discussed the DADA position with Tom. Don't tell me that the `burned and blurred`, `waxy and oddly distorted' features plus `permanently bloody' whites of the eyes passed unnoticed, not from a man styling himself Voldemort with followers called Death Eaters. Not by the man who defeated Grindlewald. Not likely. I have some thoughts on how an accidental HRX might be created which I may post later, but in the mean time .. Could Moaning Myrtle have witnessed the creation of the very first HRX? Should someone ask her? Regards Jo From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 23 19:49:47 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:49:47 -0000 Subject: Walpurgis in the wind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > "Walpurgis Night (in German folklore) the night of April 30 (May > Day's eve), when witches meet on the Brocken mountain and hold > revels with their gods..." > Named after Saint Walpurga born in Wessex in 710 and surely a > candidate for the founding of Durmstrang. While surely Rowling named the Knights of Walpurgis as a pun on Walpurgisnacht (= May Eve = Beltane Eve), I fantasize that within the Potterverse, the K of W named themselves after some other Walburga, possibly a locally beloved healer who was done in by a mob of peasants with torches and pitchforks stirred up by envious local Muggle not-as-successful healers... > (We will be hearing more from Krum.) I hope Viktor re-appears, heroic and useful, and I hope he survives, but I don't expect Rowling to be so merciful. > The Brocken mountains are in Germany, > as is the Black Forest where > Quirrell went looking for vampires and found Voldy. Hagrid said Quirrell met a vampire in the Black Forest. The student rumor mill said he met a vampire in Romania. I don't think either is canon for where he met LV. > Dumbledore may well have defeated Grindlewald there as the allies > bombed Brocken on April 17 1945. DD might have defeated Grindelwald at Brocken (I am not married to my suggestion that the Germanic name and 1945 date are misdirection for DD having defeated a local UK Dark Wizard), altho' I think it would be difficult for young Tom Riddle to have apprenticed with Grindelwald there to learn Horcrux-making and other Dark Arts. Just Apparate right through the battle fields? > From 1957 the Brocken constituted a military security zone, not a > bad place for Voldy to go to after disappearing from Borgin and > Burkes (the cold war in full swing and all). > vapour!mort would surely have been drawn to a HRX and the diary, > ring and locket were all too close to home. If young TMR *had* apprenticed at Brocken, that could maybe make it a significant place to him, suitable for hiding a Horcrux. However, LV didn't hide himself there, because he hid himself in Albania. Why Albania? Before we learned the word 'Horcrux', we knew he had done immortality magic and some suggested he had hidden his soul, like Koschei and other fairy-tale villain. In current terminology, that he had made one Horcrux. My theory that LV was irresistably magnetically drawn, whenever disembodied, to the location of his one Horcrux, which must have been hidden in Albania, was destroyed by the revelation of multiple Horcruxes, of which the oldest three (as you said: ring, locket, diary) were NOT in Albania. So why Albania? I hate to think that Rowling doesn't know that Illyria and Germania are different places. Maybe some kind of name magic: Albania, Albion, Albus -- maybe Bialystock is the destined place of victory. > Karkaroff (an eastern block sounding name) could well have met Voldy > during this time. Igor Karkaroff has a Slavic sounding name, but does not speak with an accent. He made some remark like "Hogwarts -- how good to see the old place again." I'm inclined to think of him as British-born (and educated) of immigrant parents. > Helga is a Germanic name I remain married to my idea that as many as possible of the Founders were from the island of Britain, with Helga from the Danelaw and Rowena a Saxon from the South. (My theory is probably all wrong, because I always think Rowena is the redhead -- like rowan tree -- and Helga is the blonde, but the Famous Wizard cards tseem not to agree.) 'Godric' is also a Saxon name, but I've appointed him a Welshman, Gryffydd Glyndwr, who very young ran away from his boring wizarding home to join a Muggle band of men at arms, where Saxon and Norman mercenaries (free-lances!) had trouble pronouncing his name. The Normans called him Grevisse (alternate of Gervaise) Gryphon d'Or and the Saxons called him Godric Glendower, and it amused him to combine the two and take Godric Gryffindor as his nom de guerre. Perhaps he already had the gold gryphon symbol from his family and it helped inspired the Gryphon d'Or part of his name. Salazar Slytherin *might* be a native of the island of Britain who had acquired his foreign name while travelling -- otherwise we're stuck with the idea that the one foreigner was the one bad guy. I'll buy it along with my idea that he was 600 years old at the Founding and has a kazillion descendants, not just the Gaunts. But then, I'm the one who believes in a fifth Founder, Tavish Tartanwool, who provided the location for Hogwarts (and the latest WOMBAT told us that Rowena found it in a dream) and was murdered by Salazar. From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Sat Jun 23 20:26:08 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:26:08 -0000 Subject: 'chained these 12 years..' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > > Talisman staggers in at ~3:550am: >From somewhere in the US Eastern time zone. My Pacific Daylight Time computer logged you at 12:56am. > This is old ground for my inflamed brain. MAGIC DISHWASHER plus plus. << << It really has never been explained why Peter did spend 12 years as a rat, as far as we know not transforming back to a man at any point. >> >> << We are shown that, had Wormtail allowed anyone to know he was still alive, loyal DEs would have popped a cap in him for his perceived role in LV's downfall. >> How many DEs knew about Wormtail? I accept that utterly loyal Bella and her acolytes knew, thus able to shout about it in their nightmares in Azkaban for Sirius to hear. Anyone else? Not Lucius, according to the later part of your post in which Snape tells Lucius about Peter and Sirius in the summer before book 3. (If you explained Malfoy's role before this post, I must have forgotten. I appreciate hearing about it now.) << Alternatively, had the law-abiding side of the WW noticed that he was still around, it would have raised a lot of sticky questions. >> A more plausible reason, altho' he could have claimed that he was heroically pursuing guilty Sirius, turned into a rat to save himself from the blast, came down with amnesia until something cured him and he remembered that he wasn't really a rat ... It would be his word against Black's who was the faithless SK, and wizarding Justice wouldn't like to admit it had been wrong. << What he really needed was LV, back, powerful and on his side. >> What he really needed was Crookshanks to go away, Sirius dead or back in prison, and Ron to buy a female rat to be his companion. Being a Weasley pet is a nicer job than being LV's servant. << The events of the SS were a total, professional, Order SpecOp mission. (snip) From DD's pov, it's time for Sirius to be out (setting up the next phase/Volde-proofing results in OoP, etc.), (snip) Lupin is Order, and no more evil that the next guy, likely less. >> I like DDM!Snape theories in which Snape did not try to get Sirius soul-sucked even tho' Snape knew that Peter was the real criminal. I like DDM!Lupin theories, but not those in which DDM!Lupin obediently shot Sirius in the chest and killed him while he was duelling with Bella. It's not the same as theories in which DDM!Snape obediently killed DD, because Sirius didn't agree to it. From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 24 04:52:00 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 04:52:00 -0000 Subject: 'chained these 12 years..' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" > wrote: > > Talisman staggers in at ~3:55am: CL: > From somewhere in the US Eastern time zone. My Pacific Daylight Time > computer logged you at 12:56am. T: Indeed, from the bounds of Eastern Standard Time...far from those balmy Pacific sands, in the region of those fresh water inland seas, The Great Lakes. T then: > > This is old ground for my inflamed brain. CL: > MAGIC DISHWASHER plus plus. T: I've noted, more than once, that I absolutely agree with MD to the extent that DD and his operatives are running the action in PoA. After that we part company. DD was laying his plans *at least* from the time Riddle was a lad. He planned the events in PoA back when he allowed Sirius to take the fall for GH and Wormtail's death, etc. Carolyn said: > << << It really has never been explained why Peter did spend 12 years > as a rat, as far as we know not transforming back to a man at any > point. >> >> T then: > << We are shown that, had Wormtail allowed anyone to know he was still > alive, loyal DEs would have popped a cap in him for his perceived role > in LV's downfall. >> CL: > How many DEs knew about Wormtail? I accept that utterly loyal Bella > and her acolytes knew, thus able to shout about it in their >nightmares in Azkaban for Sirius to hear. Anyone else? > > Not Lucius, according to the later part of your post in which Snape > tells Lucius about Peter and Sirius in the summer before book 3. (If > you explained Malfoy's role before this post, I must have >forgotten. I appreciate hearing about it now.) T: Sorry if I wasn't clear. I totally agree that the DE's--even Lucius-- knew Pettigrew was the SK/traitor/spy, that's exactly why they believed he had a role in Lv's downfall. As in the cite I offered, they all believed he was the "double-crossing double-crosser." Bella and her gang--the ones that Lucius disposed of with the Longbottom Mission--certainly were upset about the Dark Lord's misfortunes. They *would* have come after him if he had re-appeared soon after the showdown with Sirius. Lucius,however, would not have had a grudge with Wormtail. Lucius didn't enjoy all the DE groveling and, as I assert in other posts, was both happy to see LV go (wasn't about to search in the Albanian shrubbery, as LV himself noted), and appalled to see the old DL return (though he had the tact to deny it). However, neither Lucius nor Bella's gang, nor any other DE (unless you count Snape ;) ) knew that Wormtail was alive and well and living in Ron Weasley's pocket. This was the juicy tidbit, this and, I wager, the clever way the information could be used in the plot to vaccum Potter, were what Snape planted in Luscious Lucius's fevered brain. Because Lucius, unlike Bella, was not interested in whether Wormtail lived or died, there was no danger that he would run off and snuff the *traitor* rat, rather than using him as--unbeknownst to Lucius-- DD wished. T then: > << Alternatively, had the law-abiding side of the WW noticed that he > was still around, it would have raised a lot of sticky questions. >> CL: > A more plausible reason, altho' he could have claimed that he was > heroically pursuing guilty Sirius, turned into a rat to save himself > from the blast, came down with amnesia until something cured him and > he remembered that he wasn't really a rat ... It would be his word > against Black's who was the faithless SK, and wizarding Justice > wouldn't like to admit it had been wrong. Ah, the old amnesia gambit...well... Wormtail doesn't know that Lucius (and likely other DEs) wouldn't care if he *had* betrayed Voldemort. Similarly, he does not know that DD *allowed* Sirius to take the rap. He would expect both those sources to have something to say to him. Lucius is powerful, and DD is godlike. Wormtail could not bet on surviving either conversation. As for the Ministry, and the rest of the WW, there is no doubt that questions would be asked. I'm sure Sirius had other friends, beside Lupin. While it's true that Sirius never had a hearing, it's also true that he never spoke up for himself. He never denied his guilt. I'm sure that this went a long way toward people believing they had the right man. I believe that if DD had allowed Sirius to take Harry under his wing, he would have fought any allegation that he had betrayed the Potters, or committed any subsequent murders. He would have devoted himself to Harry as a way of atoning for his fatal error. But, as we find him, he believes that he is responsible for GH, he has been told he cannot raise Harry, and he believes Wormtail has eluded him--indeed he belives Wormtail is dead. At this point, with atonement and revenge denied, he allows himself to be punished--in effect he makes that decision himself--because all he has left is his guilt. If it were found that Wormtail was back in town, Sirius would be telling everything he knew about the situation. If anyone in a position to look further, did, the jig would be up. A quick Priori Incantatum, would settle the matter. Wormtail knows this, and he'd rather be a rat than a prisoner of Azkaban. T then: > << What he really needed was LV, back, powerful and on his side. >> CL: > What he really needed was Crookshanks to go away, Sirius dead or >back in prison, and Ron to buy a female rat to be his companion. T: Well, I agree that he wanted to lie low until Sirius was caught. He certainly never counted on Crookshanks . Not so sure he was interested in hot rodent love, though. While animagi brains *may* alter a bit when transformed, they seem to retain largely human intelligence. Still, any port in a storm, eh? :P CL: >Being a Weasley pet is a nicer job than being LV's servant. > T: You're right. Wormtail never would have gone back to LV, had not the events of the SS transpired. Once he was busted, he saw LV as his only remaning option. Hence the trip to Albania. That's one of the primarly reasons for all the Order performances. To send Wormtail back, and make him think it was his own idea. The other reason has to do with Harry, naturaly. T then: > << The events of the SS were a total, professional, Order SpecOp > mission. (snip) From DD's pov, it's time for Sirius to be out > (setting up the next phase/Volde-proofing results in OoP, etc.), > (snip) Lupin is Order, and no more evil that the next guy, likely less. >> CL: > I like DDM!Snape theories in which Snape did not try to get Sirius > soul-sucked even tho' Snape knew that Peter was the real criminal. T: Snape was doing exacty what he was supposed to do--as DD's agent. Sirius was to be 1)freed; and, 2) endeared to Harry; but, 3) kept on the lam. Although Harry is credited with *saving* Sirius, he really played into that part of the plan that kept Sirius in hiding, i.e. largely away from Harry and obedient to DD's orders. You may have noticed how easy it was for DD to absolve Sirius, after Sirius's death. This, though there was no body, and there were no witnesses save some DEs, who had their own reasons for killing the putative Potter SK/erstwhile Voldemortian spy. If all they needed was Bella's word, DD could have brought her to the Wizengamot to testify in PoA. Nonetheless, after a little chat with DD, Fudge was ready to accept that Sirius is innocent of everything. This is exactly the way DD springs Hagrid from Azkaban in CoS: by *jotting up a little note*--with no other evidence at all. CL: > I like DDM!Lupin theories, but not those in which DDM!Lupin obediently shot Sirius in the chest and killed him while he was duelling with Bella. T: Well, I don't generally put Lupin in my theory. I think I've gon as far as to allow that, if Lupin did anything, he did it as an Order operative. Lupin *could* have stunned Sirius, but that seems unnecessary. DD had already tied Sirius with the same invisible ropes (Incarcerus) he was using on the DEs. DD simply held Sirius--so that he couldn't dodge Bella's next blast-- and then made sure he went through the veil. When DD said, after, that Sirius's death was his (DD's) fault, he wasn't kidding. That's pure Guilty!DD. CL: > It's not the same as theories in which DDM!Snape obediently killed DD, because Sirius didn't agree to it. T: How do you know that Sirius didn't agree? Notice his increasingly bleak mood after Christmas. Notice his tactful, regretful, avoidance when Harry speaks of the possibility of living with him in the future. Now, maybe Sirius just happened to be on the dias when DD arrived, and DD obligingly used the gentlest method at hand to do the job. Then again, maybe Sirius jumped up there for a reason. I still think the Order on Order deaths relate to that comment Lupin makes to Harry, in the kitchen of GP: that being in the Order entails awful things that they (Harry et al) can't imagine--even though Harry has faced death/Voldemort/Dementors/torture, etc. We have been told that we will see Sirius's communications mirrors again. But, Rowling tells us, it's not so much the message, as the *fact* of the mirrors that will make it meaningful. What would it mean, if someone else has the other one? Because Sirius entrusted it to them (maybe Snape?), before Sirius went to his own Order execution? Talisman Saying: I have always held that the Prank is just a BS tale told for Harry's benefit, and that, if it ever happened at all, it was merely evidence of the emnity between Sirius and Snape, not the cause of it. Rowling has also told us that we will learn the *real* reason for this bad blood, in Book 7. I rather think Sirius will come off the worse, and Snape the better, when the last shoe falls. There is always a *karmic* aspect to the casualties piling up around DD's plan. > From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 24 12:02:52 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:02:52 -0000 Subject: Walpurgis in the wind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > >snip> > > The Brocken mountains are in Germany, > as is the Black Forest where > > Quirrell went looking for vampires and found Voldy. > > Hagrid said Quirrell met a vampire in the Black Forest. The student > rumor mill said he met a vampire in Romania. I don't think either is > canon for where he met LV. > Yes, I got a bit over excited there (surely not) a closer look at GoF and Voldy definitely claims he was in Albania. > > Dumbledore may well have defeated Grindlewald there as the allies > > bombed Brocken on April 17 1945. > > DD might have defeated Grindelwald at Brocken (I am not married to my > suggestion that the Germanic name and 1945 date are misdirection for > DD having defeated a local UK Dark Wizard), altho' I think it would be > difficult for young Tom Riddle to have apprenticed with Grindelwald > there to learn Horcrux-making and other Dark Arts. Just Apparate right > through the battle fields? I don't actually think that Tom met Grindelwald at all. My thoughts run along the lines of Grindy (?) and his dark KoW cooperating with the SS, or at least hiding their activities within SS operations. With the defeat of the Nazis the KoW disbanded or went underground and Tom visited Broken to recruit, research, redevelop or some such. Ultimately transforming the defunct (or quiescent) KoW into the DE. I do strongly suspect that Grindy was another HRX club member,as was Salazar. > snip> However, LV > didn't hide himself there, because he hid himself in Albania. > > Why Albania? Hum, perhaps because at the time Voldy was disembodied 1980 - 1990 ish Albania was pretty much isolated from the rest of the world (politically speaking) and the magical world is supposed to reflect some of the events in the real world. > > Karkaroff (an eastern block sounding name) could well have met Voldy > > during this time. > > Igor Karkaroff has a Slavic sounding name, but does not speak with an > accent. He made some remark like "Hogwarts -- how good to see the old > place again." I'm inclined to think of him as British-born (and > educated) of immigrant parents. > > > Helga is a Germanic name > > I remain married to my idea that as many as possible of the Founders > were from the island of Britain, with Helga from the Danelaw and > Rowena a Saxon from the South. (My theory is probably all wrong, > because I always think Rowena is the redhead -- like rowan tree -- and > Helga is the blonde, but the Famous Wizard cards tseem not to agree.) > > 'Godric' is also a Saxon name, but I've appointed him a Welshman, > Gryffydd Glyndwr, who very young ran away from his boring wizarding > home to join a Muggle band of men at arms, where Saxon and Norman > mercenaries (free-lances!) had trouble pronouncing his name. The > Normans called him Grevisse (alternate of Gervaise) Gryphon d'Or and > the Saxons called him Godric Glendower, and it amused him to combine > the two and take Godric Gryffindor as his nom de guerre. Perhaps he > already had the gold gryphon symbol from his family and it helped > inspired the Gryphon d'Or part of his name. > > Salazar Slytherin *might* be a native of the island of Britain who had > acquired his foreign name while travelling -- otherwise we're stuck > with the idea that the one foreigner was the one bad guy. I'll buy it > along with my idea that he was 600 years old at the Founding and has a > kazillion descendants, not just the Gaunts. > I didn't mean to suggest that Helga and Karkaroff were German just that they may well have relatives in that part of the world. I'm pretty convinced Salazar is from Ireland. Godric from `moor' is English Rowena from `glen' is Scottish Helga from `valley' is Welsh Salazar from `fen' is Irish (where fen = bog) and has the snake connections. The WW doesn't mirror the RW exactly so they needn't have the same political boundaries absolutely. Scotland and Ireland have a fair degree of shared history so hence the Godric/Salazar relationship perhaps. > But then, I'm the one who believes in a fifth Founder, Tavish > Tartanwool, who provided the location for Hogwarts (and the latest > WOMBAT told us that Rowena found it in a dream) and was murdered by > Salazar. > Ah you needn't nix this just yet as that WOMBAT answer was only one of the possibles and may not be true. Regards Jo From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 24 13:55:38 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:55:38 -0000 Subject: 'chained these 12 years..' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Talisman: > You may have noticed how easy it was for DD to absolve Sirius, after > Sirius's death. This, though there was no body, and there were no > witnesses save some DEs, who had their own reasons for killing the > putative Potter SK/erstwhile Voldemortian spy. Pippin: Aren't you forgetting all the other Order Members? Shacklebolt, Moody, Tonks and Lupin could all testify that Sirius was fighting on their side, not Voldemort's, and Shacklebolt and Tonks, at least were considered highly reliable Ministry employees. Also, that Sirius had been at Grimmauld Place all along and could not have helped Bella and the others escape from Azkaban. Talisman: > This is exactly the way DD springs Hagrid from Azkaban in CoS: by > *jotting up a little note*--with no other evidence at all. Pippin: The evidence is that Ginny was attacked and taken into the chamber while Hagrid was safely in Azkaban. Talisman: > When DD said, after, that Sirius's death was his (DD's) fault, he > wasn't kidding. Pippin: It was his fault for giving Lupin a third chance. Pippin Who thinks the karmic aspect to Sirius's death was that he never could bring himself to tell DD why he'd suspected Lupin From josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid Mon Jun 25 09:45:57 2007 From: josturgess at mooseming.yahoo.invalid (mooseming) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:45:57 -0000 Subject: WOMBAT results are out Message-ID: the subject line says it really.... An 'O' for me, yipee! Jo From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Mon Jun 25 15:20:40 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:20:40 -0000 Subject: 'chained these 12 years..' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Talisman then: > > You may have noticed how easy it was for DD to absolve Sirius, >after Sirius's death. This, though there was no body, and >there were no witnesses save some DEs, who had their >own reasons for killing the putative >Potter SK/erstwhile Voldemortian spy. > > Pippin: > Aren't you forgetting all the other Order Members? Shacklebolt, > Moody, Tonks and Lupin could all testify that Sirius was fighting on > their side, not Voldemort's, and Shacklebolt and Tonks, at least > were considered highly reliable Ministry employees. Also, that > Sirius had been at Grimmauld Place all along and could not have > helped Bella and the others escape from Azkaban. Talisman: I think I'm remembering that the Order is an ultra-secret organization. The Ministry doesn't know it exists, and the Order is keeping it that way. Especially with regard to it's Ministry moles, whose infiltration of government agencies, the Auror's office most definitely included, is a crucial asset. Fudge is already prepared to believe that DD has a covert army. Anyone identified as one of DD's warrior/operatives isn't going to be worth a Squib's curse in future missions. That remains true, even after Fudge, himself, is out of office. The Auror /Order members would be completely compromised (out of jobs and possibly in chains) if it were known that they fought with DD, or hung out with Sirius at Grimmauld Place. "By the way Minister, we knew where Sirius was all year, but we didn't tell you because our first loyalty is to DD." ... I'll vouchsafe that when Scrimgeour assigned Kingsley Shacklebolt to the Muggle Prime Minister's office, he had no idea--whatsoever--that he was planting DD's man there, as well. You can re-read OoP from Sirius's death to the end and then go straight on through HBP, and you'll never see so much as a whisper of any acknowledgement that any Order member -- Auror or otherwise--was at the Ministry of Magic the night of Sirius's death. Including the newspaper articles. If Fudge could have claimed that his law enforcement personnel were right there, on the scene--fighting LV and helping recapture the DEs- -he would have trumpeted it from the rooftops. But, none of the Order members came to the battle upstairs, did they? And I'll guarantee you, when the ministry personnel arrived in the Death Chamber, all they saw were hog-tied DEs. There wasn't an Order member to be found. Nor any indication that Sirius was ever there, himself. Unless Bella wanted to volunteer that she killed him. Of course being knocked through the Veil by one of Bella's stunning rays doesn't actually exonerate anyone of anything. Moreover, it's extremely unlikely that she would explain the situation to the Ministry. Bella's Dark Lord is back in power and revealing any part of his plans or interests, at the ministry or elsewhere, is the last thing she's going to do. Ditto the rest of the DEs. I'm sure they all kept their surely silence on the way back to the pokey. It was going to be a very short stay, after all. Nope, it was DD's word that exonerated Sirius. A word that he kept to himself from shortly after GH, until Sirius was safely d.e.a.d. > Talisman then: > > This is exactly the way DD springs Hagrid from Azkaban in CoS: by > > *jotting up a little note*--with no other evidence at all. > > Pippin: > The evidence is that Ginny was attacked and taken into the chamber > while Hagrid was safely in Azkaban. Talisman: All the Ministry really had, as evidence of anything, was a daubed note and Ginny temporarily AWOL from her dorm. There wasn't even a petrified body, this time. That's no more evidence than there would be if some kids cooked up a stunt to get their pal Hagrid off the hook. However, by your reasoning, DD shouldn't even have had to write a note. Hagrid should have automatically been freed as soon as the rumor of Ginny`s *abduction* was noised about. I'll grant that *no evidence at all* may be a slight overstatement, but Hagrid *wasn't* automatically released, and it's clearly DD's undisputed version of events--a version which did not involve telling what really happened--that swung the gates open, for Hagrid. Hagrid was put in the pokey because he has a reputation for cultivating dangerous pets. That's what got him fingered the first time, too. Now, as 50 years ago, something is definitely petrifying people, and Fudge feels the Ministry has to be seen to be doing something about it. Indeed, Fudge isn`t the only one worried, Hogwarts is *supposedly* on the brink of closure, as well. So, it still seems a little strange that DD only has to write to Azkaban--not even eliciting Fudge's agreement--in order to have Hagrid released. Hagrid has been presumed guilty. You'd think that overcoming this presumption would require some sort of explanation. But if DD ever explained what the creature was, how it got there, who was controlling it, or how it was defeated, I don't recall the evidence of it. How does DD prove that Hagrid had *nothing* to do with the creature ? What actually attacked those students? How did the creature get into Hogwarts in the first place? How long had it been there? Why did it become active now? Who would know how to handle it? All of the adults in the WW, including everyone involved with law enforcement, lived through Voldemort's earlier domination of their society. Possessed and Imperio-ed people were rampant. Why wouldn't they inquire into whether Hagrid had accomplices: misguided pals, willing villains, or magically controlled stooges? When Riddle wanted to calm things down, he didn't just tell the Basilisk to take a nap. He knew he had to pin it on someone. Someone had to be blamed and punished. The episode had to be explicable, so that the WW could feel certain that it knew what had happened, and that everything was over. In fact there *was* a truth that would have exculpated Hagrid. But DD doesn't even try to present it. He claims that it can't be proven, while at the same time *advising* Malfoy "not to go giving out any more of Lord Voldemort's old school things" because "Arthur Weasley, for one, will make sure they are traced back to you ." (CoA 337). Well, if Arthur can trace things back to Malfoy, why not start now? Let's consider the evidence they do have: They have Dobby's testimony. Say what you will, but DD offers Dobby's testimony relevant to the *illegal* Hover Charm, when Fudge brings it up during the hearing in OoP. Fudge may have acted as if he were above listening to elf testimony, but it clearly shuts down his argument regarding that prior *infraction.* We also see that Hokey's testimony is accepted in the matter of Hepzabah Smith's death. And, when Winky is questioned regarding the Dark Mark at the QWC, her testimony has impact, too. In addition to Dobby's testimony, we still have the Diary, with the great fang hole through it. Not to mention a humongous dead Serpent lying downstairs. We've got Ginny's testimony, along with dead roosters and blood soaked robes (more elf testimony, I suppose). The truth is that Slytherin's Heir DID have an assistant: Ginny had been setting the Basilik on people, all year. Sure she was possessed, but does DD reveal that? No, he claims no one would ever be able to prove she didn't do it of her own free will (CoS 336). Yet, we know that a great many people stayed out of Azkaban after Voldemort's fall, specifically by claiming that their wills were under magical control. Moreover, if anyone chose to not to believe that she was possessed they would have had to explain how an 11-year-old girl found and opened Salazar Slythern's fabled Chamber of Secrets -- within 2 months of entering the school--let alone how she controlled the Basilisk. Of course Harry can testify, as well. He can demonstrate how to open the chamber. He can explain what happened to the Basilisk, and the great green body is there to support his testimony. With so much evidence backing the story, I think it rather likely that they'd accept that LV had left behind an enchanted Diary. The plausibility of Ginny's possession, plus the Riddle Diary, itself, (DD could even give the evidence that he's been sitting on regarding Riddle's transformation into Voldemort), plus Harry's testimony regarding RiddleMort, plus Dobby's testimony that Malfoy planted the Diary, plus Arthur's, regarding the opportunity in Flourish and Blotts, would actually be quite a lot of evidence-- certainly by WW standards-- against someone who had already, in the past, had to wiggle out of accusations of being a DE. You'd think it'd be worth a try... Unless you see that DD really doesn't want the Ministry interfering in his projects, which are humming along right on schedule, thank you very much. For instance, at this point he's got uses for Malfoy, which don't include a stay in Azkaban, just yet... In any event, by the time DD writes his note to Azkaban, Ginny is back, safe and sound, and doesn't require so much as a sip of Mandrake potion. Yeah, there was a note (in Ginny's handwriting) and yeah, she failed to show up for dormitory role call. But she strolled back in before breakfast--not the least bit petrified--with nothing to show for her adventure that DD seems willing to use as evidence. Including her testimony. Kid takes a powder for half a day and that proves Hagrid is innocent? I'll bet the Weasley twins went missing for longer than that, on a regular basis. Even if the board of governors had initially feared the worse, wouldn't they reconsider when Ginny reappeared, unharmed, and with no real explanation? Yet, without further inquiry, the Ministry allows Hagrid to go free. If any one had been relieved to have Hagrid behind bars, they now seem convinced of his total innocence. This, even though: 1)There had definitely been child petrifications. 2) Hagrid was convicted last time, and remained a well known monster- phile. 3) There had been no inquiry into the matter of accomplices, no probing of the evidence, no explanation of any kind for the creature's reappearance, behavior, or--at this point, presumably-- alleged disappearance. They're still holding Stan Shunpike on less than that. Wouldn't Fudge want more assurance that everything was over? Wouldn't he want to explain to the WW why no one was being held responsible? Guess not. Miraculously DD merely had to tell someone--who? the dementors? an unnamed warden?-- that they were to release Hagrid post haste. Apparently DD vouched that Hagrid was innocent of any involvement in the petrification cases, someone else was the perp, and never mind those silly little details.... I'm telling you, when it comes to Azkaban, if DD wants you out, you're out. Just ask Snape. > Talisman then: > > > When DD said, after, that Sirius's death was his (DD's) fault, he > > wasn't kidding. > > Pippin: > It was his fault for giving Lupin a third chance. Talisman: I can count considerably more than 3 chances--none of which involved DD standing over him. Guess ESE!Lupin is just a bit slow... ...but he's dang lucky, because he'll be able to stay under deep cover...all the way through the last book. Even the Author won`t know what he's been up to. ; ) > Pippin > Who thinks the karmic aspect to Sirius's death was that he > never could bring himself to tell DD why he'd suspected Lupin Talisman: Rowling has called Sirius the most dangerous of the Marauders--more dangerous than Wormtail. Certainly he was very reckless, often thoughtless, somewhat hypocritical, and prone to over-rating his own cleverness. We will soon learn more about his critical flaws, and see how his persistence in them lead to his *karmic* demise, just as Barty Crouch, Sr., Bertha Jorkins, and Quirrell, etc. got, in a sense, their respective comeuppances. I rather think DD gave Sirius a way to make amends for a lot of past nonsense, including GH. A way that helped protect Harry, i.e. by Vold-proofing him, at least temporarily. DD clearly had kept Sirius under tight control, for the last 14 years of his life. Compare this to the wide latitude DD gave Snape, and you know enough to see what's coming. Talisman From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Tue Jun 26 14:42:36 2007 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:42:36 -0000 Subject: WOMBAT and Wiggenweld Message-ID: I was reading the Lexicon commentary on the latest WOMBAT, and the responses to the Draught of the Living Death item of question 15 (match the dangerous being, plant, or potion with the spell, substance or object that will conquer it) caught my attention. Here's a link to the Lexicon's analysis: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizworld/wombat/wombat3comments.html In their answers, Lisa and Belinda both refer to a Famous Hags card from the PoA video game: that of one Leticia Somnolens, who, it says, poisoned Sleeping Beauty with a spindle tainted with DOLD. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/card_wizards.html (Scroll down to almost the very bottom, to the list of Famous Hags.) According to Somnolens's card, our Prince Charming was really a wizard who was using Wiggenweld Potion as a lip gloss when he smooched Ms. Beauty. Well, you see the problem. There IS no "Wiggenweld" offered as a choice for a "spell, substance or object" that will conquer anything. Lisa and Belinda go ahead and choose other things (Phoenix tears and chocolate, respectively), but hang on a minute... How could Wiggenweld fail to be one of the options? Aren't these cards supposed to be *canon*? I recall participating in a debate, right here on this list, on this very subject a while back... *rummages* Yep. It's in an *old* WOMBAT thread, a little four-poster started by Talisman in message number 4055. Steve attests that JKR wrote the cards, but then in message 4063 I air my doubts: >>>Anne: This question was actually asked about in the Lexicon/Mugglenet joint open letter to JKR, which she answered in her FAQs. However, her answer seems a bit imprecise: "Yes, I wrote the information on the original Famous Wizard cards. As you have noticed, a few of them have now popped up on the `Wizard of the Month' cards on my website desk. " What does she mean by "original?"<<< I really think it must mean that JKR wrote some cards to begin with -- the "originals" -- but then EA must have added to them, just as they added new spells ("Flippendo." Honestly, what kind of a spell is that?). So... what the heck *does* conquer DOLD??? Nothing really seems to fit. Anne, who got Acceptable the first time, then hashed it all out with Talisman, took it twice more, and got Outstandings. SUCH a cheater! P.S. Oh yeah, I put phoenix tears and bezoar for the question in question, on my two Outstandings (and phoenix tears on my A, too). From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid Tue Jun 26 21:58:37 2007 From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:58:37 -0000 Subject: 'chained these 12 years..' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Talisman: > > I think I'm remembering that the Order is an ultra-secret > organization. The Ministry doesn't know it exists, and the Order is > keeping it that way. > Pippin: Even Sluggy knows it exists and refers to it by name. Matter of fact, it was Fudge who first told us about Spymaster! Dumbledore. Not only that, he tried to recruit Percy to infiltrate. You don't think it's an *accident* that Moody was forced into retirement, Tonks got posted to Hogsmeade and Shacklebolt to the Muggle PM's office? They aren't going to be spying on the Ministry from there, you know. Talisman: > "By the way Minister, we knew where Sirius was all year, but we > didn't tell you because our first loyalty is to DD." Pippin: "By the way Minister, we knew where Sirius was all year, but we weren't able to tell you. You're familiar with the secret keeper spell, we believe?" > > Pippin: > > The evidence is that Ginny was attacked and taken into the chamber > > while Hagrid was safely in Azkaban. > > Talisman: > > All the Ministry really had, as evidence of anything, was a daubed > note and Ginny temporarily AWOL from her dorm. There wasn't even a > petrified body, this time. > > That's no more evidence than there would be if some kids cooked up a > stunt to get their pal Hagrid off the hook. Pippin: And Ginny just evaporated, did she? Talisman: > Hagrid has been presumed guilty. You'd think that overcoming this > presumption would require some sort of explanation. Pippin: No, he was placed in Azkaban merely as a precaution. With the wind blowing against Lucius Malfoy, Fudge had no reason not to interfere with Dumbledore's order, (presumably as Head of the Wizengamot) to let Hagrid go. Remember, most people would rather believe the chamber does not exist, so nobody is going to be demanding a lot of explanations provided the attacks stop. > > > > Pippin: > > It was his fault for giving Lupin a third chance. > > Talisman: > > I can count considerably more than 3 chances--none of which involved > DD standing over him. Guess ESE!Lupin is just a bit slow... > > ...but he's dang lucky, because he'll be able to stay under deep > cover...all the way through the last book. > > Even the Author won`t know what he's been up to. ; ) Pippin: Oh, no. He confesses, a full villain tells all speech, or ESE!Lupin sinks gently to the bottom of the bay. I won't bore you with any such behind the scenes nonsense. If JKR has somehow managed to inspire in me the plot of a full blown spy novel which she didn't write, I shall be far too busy filing off the serial numbers and writing it myself. :) > Talisman: > > Rowling has called Sirius the most dangerous of the Marauders--more > dangerous than Wormtail. > > Certainly he was very reckless, often thoughtless, somewhat > hypocritical, and prone to over-rating his own cleverness. Pippin: But those are the characteristics JKR forgives in youth, at least, her hero Harry exhibits all of them. Sirius's only tragedy is that he never got a chance to grow out of them. Pippin From severelysigune at severelysigune.yahoo.invalid Wed Jun 27 11:58:41 2007 From: severelysigune at severelysigune.yahoo.invalid (severelysigune) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:58:41 -0000 Subject: WOMBAT and Wiggenweld In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anne wrote: > I was reading the Lexicon commentary on the latest WOMBAT, and the responses to the Draught of the Living Death item of question 15 (match the dangerous being, plant, or potion with the spell, substance or object that will conquer it) caught my attention. Here's a link to the Lexicon's analysis: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizworld/wombat/wombat3comments.html In their answers, Lisa and Belinda both refer to a Famous Hags card from the PoA video game: that of one Leticia Somnolens, who, it says, poisoned Sleeping Beauty with a spindle tainted with DOLD. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/card_wizards.html (Scroll down to almost the very bottom, to the list of Famous Hags.) According to Somnolens's card, our Prince Charming was really a wizard who was using Wiggenweld Potion as a lip gloss when he smooched Ms. Beauty. Well, you see the problem. There IS no "Wiggenweld" offered as a choice for a "spell, substance or object" that will conquer anything. Lisa and Belinda go ahead and choose other things (Phoenix tears and chocolate, respectively), but hang on a minute... How could Wiggenweld fail to be one of the options? Aren't these cards supposed to be *canon*? I recall participating in a debate, right here on this list, on this very subject a while back... *rummages* Yep. It's in an *old* WOMBAT thread, a little four-poster started by Talisman in message number 4055. Steve attests that JKR wrote the cards, but then in message 4063 I air my doubts: >>>Anne: > This question was actually asked about in the Lexicon/Mugglenet joint open letter to JKR, which she answered in her FAQs. However, her answer seems a bit imprecise: > "Yes, I wrote the information on the original Famous Wizard cards. As you have noticed, a few of them have now popped up on the `Wizard of the Month' cards on my website desk. " What does she mean by "original?"<<< I really think it must mean that JKR wrote some cards to begin with -- the "originals" -- but then EA must have added to them, just as they added new spells ("Flippendo." Honestly, what kind of a spell is that?). So... what the heck *does* conquer DOLD??? Nothing really seems to fit.> Sigune: For what it's worth, I (ever mindful of Snape) answered "bezoar" and got an O - but of course nothing says that this particular answer was a good one... I am highly skeptical of all those side-thingies that JKR is supposed to be "closely involved" in. People keep saying the same thing about the films, but seriously, if the film scripts are representative of JKR's plot, and the Marauders backstory can be cut out in its entirity, I do ask myself a few questions. I suspect that Rowling only really interferes when she thinks something is wholly unacceptable*, and those Famous Wizard cards in the computer games are probably not among her priorities. I bet you are right in surmising that she maybe wrote a few, at the beginning, or as background for her books, and passed those on to the game people; I highly doubt that she kept a close eye on them since. Yours severely, Sigune * I do wonder why Kreacher is so much more important than the whole Snape/Marauders backstory. JKR requested that Kreacher at least *appear* in OotP, when the character was in danger of being cut out entirely. Hm. From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Thu Jun 28 00:16:49 2007 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:16:49 -0000 Subject: WOMBAT and Wiggenweld In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: > > Anne wrote: > I really think it must mean that JKR wrote some cards to begin with -- > the "originals" -- but then EA must have added to them, just as they > added new spells ("Flippendo." Honestly, what kind of a spell is > that?). > > > So... what the heck *does* conquer DOLD??? Nothing really seems to fit.> > Sigune: > > I am highly skeptical of all those side-thingies that JKR is supposed > to be "closely involved" in. People keep saying the same thing about > the films, but seriously, if the film scripts are representative of > JKR's plot, and the Marauders backstory can be cut out in its > entirity, I do ask myself a few questions. I suspect that Rowling only > really interferes when she thinks something is wholly unacceptable*, > and those Famous Wizard cards in the computer games are probably not > among her priorities. I bet you are right in surmising that she maybe > wrote a few, at the beginning, or as background for her books, and > passed those on to the game people; I highly doubt that she kept a > close eye on them since. Anne, again: Well, and here's another thing. Leticia Somnolens's card is a Famous Hag card from the PoA game. Amost *all* the new cards for that game are non-human: Famous Vampires, Goblins, Hags, and Giants. Now, as far as we know from other JKR canon, she herself has only made Witch and Wizard cards, with one partial exception: Lorcan d'Eath, the *part*-vampire wizard-of-the-month for Nov. 2006 (correct me if I missed someone). It just makes me wonder, along with that WOMBAT question, if we can really trust all of them as canon, you know? Another thing...today, something rustled in the corner of my brain. We have the SS Harry Potter PC game, which I've played...er...several times in the past. One thing you do is find ingredients to make a Wiggenweld Potion. As I said, I played the PC version; as I understand it, some of the other versions have a more complicated potion, but in my game you just have to find four ingredients: Moly, Flobberworm mucus, Dittany, and...Wiggen tree bark. I googled a bit. It's a real tree. Wiggen tree, or Wiggin tree, is Rowan. Mountain Ash. And, both the berries and *bark* are used for ritual/magic purposes. Here's rather a nice site: http://www.shee-eire.com/Herbs,Trees&Fungi/Trees/Rowan/rwn.htm So, EA Games has been using Wiggenweld potion since its development of the first game, released in 2001. I don't know if this proves anything or is merely suggestive. But, we're talking about a possible antidote to THE Draught. of. the. Living. Death. I mean, if JKR ever made up this antidote -- and gave it to EA before 2001, and gave them the Somnolens card before 2004 -- she just *can't* have accidentally left it out of the WOMBAT, can she? It's not like forgetting what color the prefects' badges are, right? Right??? By the way, the following source noted that you can collect 24 Wizard cards in this game (17 in the PS version): http://www.answers.com/topic/harry-potter-and-the-sorcerer-s-stone- game-1?cat=entertainment They don't list them, and neither does the Lexicon (it might be that they all reappear in the CoS list, so the Lex doesn't bother to list them separately). I just wonder if *these* could be the "original" cards JKR spoke of in her FAQ answer. Am I obsessing? Yeah, probably. Just call it pre-release nervous energy. :D Sigune: > > * I do wonder why Kreacher is so much more important than the whole > Snape/Marauders backstory. JKR requested that Kreacher at least > *appear* in OotP, when the character was in danger of being cut out > entirely. Hm. > Anne: Really. IIRC, the word was the movie people figured they'd slip a Marauder explanation into a later movie. (I.e., Cuaron fobbed it off on some future director.) Yeah, right, like they have *so* much extra time to fill. I dunno, maybe JKR got fed up -- or, maybe, since Kreacher came with the house, he sort of had to appear when the house did? And I suppose Harry has to *hate* him, which he wouldn't if he merely inherited Kreacher sight unseen in the beginning of the HBP movie... Anne From silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid Thu Jun 28 12:24:11 2007 From: silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:24:11 +0200 Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: WOMBAT and Wiggenweld In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56f2b65c0706280524i7639e08fp6e994ba378f6ca56@...> On 6/28/07, Annemehr wrote: > By the way, the following source noted that you can collect 24 Wizard > cards in this game (17 in the PS version): > > http://www.answers.com/topic/harry-potter-and-the-sorcerer-s-stone- > game-1?cat=entertainment > > They don't list them, and neither does the Lexicon (it might be that > they all reappear in the CoS list, so the Lex doesn't bother to list > them separately). I just wonder if *these* could be the "original" > cards JKR spoke of in her FAQ answer. > > Am I obsessing? Yeah, probably. Just call it pre-release nervous > energy. :D > I've only found two partial lists, the firts lists the 24 but only titles, for the PC version - http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/516702/30756 this one gives some details on some cards, but it's the 18 card list from the PS - http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/516645/19848 some of the faqs may include another list, if you want to browse them starting here - http://www.gamefaqs.com/search/index.html?game=Harry+Potter+and+the+Sorcerer%27s+Stone&platform=0 but I hope it serves. Silmariel