From mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep  9 19:41:23 2007
From: mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid (Mike)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 19:41:23 -0000
Subject: New Guy Hi
In-Reply-To: <fb83na+j8mv@...>
Message-ID: <fc1i93+u3v5@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at ...> wrote:

> Haha! Yeah, you are right down the road from me.  There are a 
> couple of other Potter fans in the area, too -- maybe we can all
> get together sometime.  There's also a Great Lakes HP fan Yahoo 
> site, but the activity seems to mostly be in Grand Rapids.

Mike:
Yeah, Ive followed the Grand Rapids group vicariously through the 
Great Lakes digest. They sound like a fun group, don't they? It's 
just a little far, 400 miles roundtrip, to hook up for a meeting, 
isn't it?

I've met a few local Potterphiles through Meetup.com, mostly a bunch 
of twentysomething girls from Dearborn.


> Judy
> Of course, if we ever do meet, I'll probably regale you with
> reasons why Snape is wonderful....

Mike:
Oh, bring it on. Since I was blessed with a Y chromosome, I have 
avoided being afflicted by Snape's sultry, brooding allure that 
seemed to attract those without my genetic make-up. I'll buy Severus 
was a "gift of a character" for JKR, and that he is interesting to 
read, but I'm afraid you'll never get me to like him.

I have met a fair few Snapes. Those folks that were predisposed to 
disdain for the "jock" types, like me. Whether lacking the aptitude 
or the competitive urge mattered not, they were sure that "sports" 
were for the feeble of mind. They also can't be bothered with the 
mundane act of socializing and are sure that their superiority of 
intelligence over all things worth knowing excuses them from being 
civil to the lesser beings of this world. 

Often enough, when the veneer was peeled back, one discovered that 
these Snape-types were neither emotionally superior nor the smartest 
person in the room. At various times, I've made the effort to make 
more than a superficial acquaintenance of these types. Me being both 
a jock and somewhat of a rabble-rouser, they were frequently amazed 
that there were more than ten brain cells in my head. Discovering I 
am a Mensan just did not compute, it blew their categorical heirarchy 
to have an intelligent jock.

The Snape I know would look down his nose at me, that is if his 
vision is good enough to see that far. ;) He would have neither the 
time nor the inclination to see me as anything other than the stupid 
jock and park me into that slot without a backwards glance. 

So, have I misread our dear Severus? Or would you care to regale me 
with his "other" virtues which have eluded my attention?

Be forewarned, if you aren't already, I love to hate this guy. I get 
a visceral enjoyment out of smacking him down from my keyboard.

Mike




From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep  9 20:25:25 2007
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 20:25:25 -0000
Subject: Snape (was: New Guy Hi)
In-Reply-To: <fc1i93+u3v5@...>
Message-ID: <fc1krl+8v1k@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy@> wrote:
 
> I have met a fair few Snapes. Those folks that were predisposed to 
> disdain for the "jock" types, like me. Whether lacking the aptitude 
> or the competitive urge mattered not, they were sure that "sports" 
> were for the feeble of mind. They also can't be bothered with the 
> mundane act of socializing and are sure that their superiority of 
> intelligence over all things worth knowing excuses them from being 
> civil to the lesser beings of this world. 

"Jock" in my next paragraph. Competitive urge can manifest in
non-physical ways -- did any of the jock-haters you met participate in
chess tournaments? Socializing -- young Snape, in the Pensieve
memories, clearly didn't have the skill, rather than couldn't be
bothered with doing it. Somehow he learned the skill in time to use it
when Cissy and Bella visited him at Spinner's End. 

I also don't have the skill and have never learned it (altho' around
age 30 I learned how to say 'thank you' to a compliment) and have been
slapped down so much in my childhood by 'peers' that a form of
solitude seems preferable. I think there may be a gene for being able
to learn social skills and a few of us losers don't inherit it and
before like the 19th century would have died in childhood from
violence ('accidents') or neglect as a result. As far as I know I'm
not mean and nasty to people, but maybe that is how they perceive my
lack of small talk, my having to pause to think to answer "How're you
doing?" or else mumble an unenthusiastic "Okay", and so on. 

whether I like Snape depends entirely on whether he would include me
in the small list of people he likes, and therefore spares from his
venom: Draco, Lucius, Cissy, Minerva, probably some more members of
Order of the Phoenix because no Order member backs sirius's hatred of
him... His sarcasm is very funny when aimed at someone other than me
and mine.

> The Snape I know would look down his nose at me, that is if his 
> vision is good enough to see that far. ;) He would have neither the 
> time nor the inclination to see me as anything other than the stupid 
> jock and park me into that slot without a backwards glance. 

The Snape in the Potterverse seems to hate Gryffindors rather than
jocks. He doesn't go easy on Neville and Hermione for not being jocks.
He doesn't get mean to Draco for being Seeker on the Quidditch team,
nor to Crabbe and Goyle who are clearly stupid -- perhaps too stupid
to take part in any sports where the player must remember the rules
and the strategy. Maybe they could excel at lifting big rocks if their
coach could stand beside and continuously instruct them.





From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 10 03:10:13 2007
From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:10:13 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: New Guy Hi
References: <fc1i93+u3v5@...>
Message-ID: <001901c7f358$3553bb60$482fdcd1@...>

As a Snape type myself (somewhat rare among those of the X-chromosome persuasion; hmmm, I wonder why), I would like to speak up in defense of Our Man Severus. Introverted to begin with, we tend to be put off people generally by the attitudes of those less decisive and more extroverted. After being burned by the majority of people we meet (try getting through high school as a female INTJ), we learn to be reserved and self-contained, and to live inside our own heads. Yes, we are standoffish and hard to get to know, but the few people who make the effort will find us interesting and devoted friends. Not too surprisingly, a lot of us are cat people; cats, being that way themselves, recognize us as kindred spirits.

For the record, at the university I attended, the jocks were smart first and jocks second, so I learned not to jump to confusions.

--La Gatta Lucianese



  --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at ...> wrote:

  > Haha! Yeah, you are right down the road from me. There are a 
  > couple of other Potter fans in the area, too -- maybe we can all
  > get together sometime. There's also a Great Lakes HP fan Yahoo 
  > site, but the activity seems to mostly be in Grand Rapids.

  Mike:
  Yeah, Ive followed the Grand Rapids group vicariously through the 
  Great Lakes digest. They sound like a fun group, don't they? It's 
  just a little far, 400 miles roundtrip, to hook up for a meeting, 
  isn't it?

  I've met a few local Potterphiles through Meetup.com, mostly a bunch 
  of twentysomething girls from Dearborn.

  > Judy
  > Of course, if we ever do meet, I'll probably regale you with
  > reasons why Snape is wonderful....

  Mike:
  Oh, bring it on. Since I was blessed with a Y chromosome, I have 
  avoided being afflicted by Snape's sultry, brooding allure that 
  seemed to attract those without my genetic make-up. I'll buy Severus 
  was a "gift of a character" for JKR, and that he is interesting to 
  read, but I'm afraid you'll never get me to like him.

  I have met a fair few Snapes. Those folks that were predisposed to 
  disdain for the "jock" types, like me. Whether lacking the aptitude 
  or the competitive urge mattered not, they were sure that "sports" 
  were for the feeble of mind. They also can't be bothered with the 
  mundane act of socializing and are sure that their superiority of 
  intelligence over all things worth knowing excuses them from being 
  civil to the lesser beings of this world. 

  Often enough, when the veneer was peeled back, one discovered that 
  these Snape-types were neither emotionally superior nor the smartest 
  person in the room. At various times, I've made the effort to make 
  more than a superficial acquaintenance of these types. Me being both 
  a jock and somewhat of a rabble-rouser, they were frequently amazed 
  that there were more than ten brain cells in my head. Discovering I 
  am a Mensan just did not compute, it blew their categorical heirarchy 
  to have an intelligent jock.

  The Snape I know would look down his nose at me, that is if his 
  vision is good enough to see that far. ;) He would have neither the 
  time nor the inclination to see me as anything other than the stupid 
  jock and park me into that slot without a backwards glance. 

  So, have I misread our dear Severus? Or would you care to regale me 
  with his "other" virtues which have eluded my attention?

  Be forewarned, if you aren't already, I love to hate this guy. I get 
  a visceral enjoyment out of smacking him down from my keyboard.

  Mike



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 11 02:45:19 2007
From: mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid (Mike)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 02:45:19 -0000
Subject: Snape (was: New Guy Hi)
In-Reply-To: <fc1krl+8v1k@...>
Message-ID: <fc4vfv+vs9u@...>

My second try at this. Had a post completed when my computer locked 
up. Aaarrrggghhh

> Catlady 
> 
> Competitive urge can manifest in non-physical ways -- did any of 
> the jock-haters you met participate in chess tournaments?

Mike:
One such fellow had a national junior ranking in chess. After 
regaling me with all his thrilling chess exploits including all the 
*named* chess moves he'd used, he deigned to play me, I suppose to 
keep his eye. After two losses, he told me that I played too 
unconventionally. After four losses, he said that I presented him 
with too wide array of oppurtunities. After he lost to me for the 
sixth straight time, he stopped giving me advice.

::A slight pause in the action whilst I rearrainge Catlady's post. 
Ah, there we are, you may continue.::

> Catlady 
> The Snape in the Potterverse seems to hate Gryffindors rather than
> jocks.

Mike:
Oh but he seems to use every oppurtunity to disparage the Gryffindor 
jocks, at least one in particular. How about "brain versus brawn" 
or "Quidditch star" said with that irrascible Snape sneer. He must 
have let out his feelings on jocks, enough so that Lupin speculates 
on James jockocracy being one of the thorns in Sev's side.

:: I will now attempt the double cat balancing act. Degree of 
difficulty 3.8. Please wear gloves if you try this at home. ;) ::


> Catlady 
Socializing -- young Snape, in the Pensieve memories, clearly 
didn't have the skill, rather than couldn't be bothered with
doing it. Somehow he learned the skill in time to use it
when Cissy and Bella visited him at Spinner's End. 

> La Gatta Lucianese (Kat Macfarlane)
Introverted to begin with, we tend to be put off people generally by
the attitudes of those less decisive and more extroverted. After 
being burned by the majority of people we meet we learn to be 
reserved and self-contained, and to live inside our own heads.

Mike:
Well my two kittens, I think there may be a little projection going 
on here. You see, the nine-year-old boy that had the chutzpah to 
interrupt a nine and ten-year-old sister act in the playground does 
not seem to be quite so shy. Snape is of my generation. I can tell 
you that at his age I wouldn't have dared to interject myself the way 
he did, especially if I had a crush on one of the girls in question. 
That the encounter didn't go as planned was more the fault of his 
chromosomal make-up than his elan. Nine-year-old boys don't know how 
to talk to nine-year-old girls. 

But young Severus did manage to befriend Lily, did he not? And he 
seemed to have other friends from his House, not real charmers I'll 
grant you, but friends nonetheless. So where is this introverted 
child from whence you speak? How many kids do you know have friends 
of both sexes growing up?

And, yes, we see in his later years that he has no problem 
socializing with Cissy and Bella. I'm afraid introverted is not in 
Snapes vocabulary. He does speak "Sneer" and I have detected a hint 
of a "Snobbery" accent in his tone.

I can't say that I would have been a Gryffindor, but I feel confident 
in saying that young Severus and I would not have comingled 
congenially regardless of our House affiliation. And like the 
exchange between James and Sev on the train, I may have announced my 
desire for a particular House over all others, but Severus would have 
thrown out the first sneer and insult.


> Catlady 
I think there may be a gene for being able to learn social skills 

> Kat
Yes, we are standoffish and hard to get to know, but the few people 
who make the effort will find us interesting and devoted friends. 

Mike:
Oh dear me, I seem to have unintentionally offended here. Let me 
assure you both, I too was a shy youth. In fact, until I had made 
friends, I was slightly standoffish in new surroundings. I was 
especially poor at communications with the opposite sex. 

It wasn't until I got old, grey, and lost all my sex appeal that I 
found it easy to converse with the full spectrum of the human race. 
Though I would easily strike up conversations in an elevator full of 
strangers, I still test out as shy in those personality tests. Hmmph

That "chess champion" I spoke of above, we remained friends for a few 
years. I have put forth the effort. But you see, with Snape I don't 
think it's a matter of breaking through a false facade. I think he is 
genuinely spiteful by nature, as opposed to shy and reserved.


> Kat
Not too surprisingly, a lot of us are cat people; cats, being that 
way themselves, recognize us as kindred spirits.

Mike, raising his hand:
Cat person here too. I like their personalities. Though I may just be 
too lazy to take care of a dog. ;)

BTW, shouldn't you like Minerva?


> Catlady 
Whether I like Snape depends entirely on whether he would include me
in the small list of people he likes, and therefore spares from his
venom: Draco, Lucius, Cissy, Minerva, probably some more members of
Order of the Phoenix because no Order member backs Sirius's hatred 
of him... His sarcasm is very funny when aimed at someone other 
than me and mine.

Mike:
I guess I'm Sirius, then. Damn shame that Harry stepped between them 
two in the kitchen. I would have enjoyed a little spat.




From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 11 05:59:04 2007
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:59:04 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fc1i93+u3v5@...>
Message-ID: <fc5ar8+31ne@...>

Mike said, in regards to my fondness for Snape:

> Oh, bring it on. Since I was blessed with a Y chromosome, I have 
> avoided being afflicted by Snape's sultry, brooding allure that 
> seemed to attract those without my genetic make-up.
> I'll buy Severus 
> was a "gift of a character" for JKR, and that he is interesting to 
> read, but I'm afraid you'll never get me to like him.
> 
> I have met a fair few Snapes. Those folks that were predisposed to 
> disdain for the "jock" types, like me. Whether lacking the aptitude 
> or the competitive urge mattered not, they were sure that "sports" 
> were for the feeble of mind. They also can't be bothered with the 
> mundane act of socializing and are sure that their superiority of 
> intelligence over all things worth knowing excuses them from being 
> civil to the lesser beings of this world....
> So, have I misread our dear Severus? 

Oh, my!  I have never read Snape as being especially anti-jock.  
Rather, I see him as anti-JAMES. He intensely resented the attention 
that Quidditch brought to James. If someone other than James had been 
the Quidditch star, I don't think he would have cared about 
Quidditch, either way. 

As Rita (Catlady) notes, Snape is hostile to Gryffindors who aren't 
jocks (Neville, Hermione), and positive to Draco, a Slytherin who is 
a Quidditch player. In fact, I would point out that Hermione isn't 
even remotely a jock; she's a *brain*. I'm not even certain to what 
extent Snape is hostile to Gryffindors (the "jock house") in general, 
since we don't see him pick on Dean, Seamus, Lavender, or Parvati. 

Mike continued:
> he seems to use every oppurtunity to disparage the Gryffindor
> jocks, at least one in particular. How about "brain versus brawn"
> or "Quidditch star" said with that irrascible Snape sneer. He must
> have let out his feelings on jocks, enough so that Lupin speculates
> on James jockocracy being one of the thorns in Sev's side.

As far as I recall, we see him only disparage sports in relationship 
to James. So, as I said above, I think Snape's comments about 
Quidditch are really specific to James, and not about athletes in 
general. (I discuss the "brain versus brawn" comment in my next 
paragraph.) 

Lupin clearly is clueless about why Snape hated James. Lupin entirely 
misses the fact that Snape and James were rivals for Lily's 
affections. In book 6, Harry tells Lupin (and a bunch of other 
people) that Snape thought Lily was worthless, because she was 
muggleborn, and Lupin seems to accept this without question.

Mike again:
> And like the
> exchange between James and Sev on the train, I may have announced my
> desire for a particular House over all others, but Severus would 
> have thrown out the first sneer and insult.

Severus does *not* throw out the first insult. JAMES does. Severus 
says he hopes Lily will be in Slytherin, and James (who wasn't 
even part of the conversation) responds by saying, "Who wants to be
in Slytherin?  I'd think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" to Sirius. This
is *exactly* what Draco says about Hufflepuff when Harry first meets 
him. At the end of Book 1, Dumbledore tells Harry that the 
relationship between Snape and James was similar to that between 
Harry and Draco. Harry takes this to mean that Snape was a bully,
like Draco. Only later does he realize -- to his horror -- that 
it was James who bullied Snape, not the other way around. 

I find it amazing that anyone can read the interaction between Snape 
and James/Sirius on the Hogwarts' train, and believe that it was 
Snape who started the animosity. 

I also think, Mike, that you are overlooking the fact that Snape 
wasn't the one getting academic honors as a student. JAMES was. James 
becomes headboy and all the indications are that the teachers 
considered him very smart. Snape apparently wasn't even a prefect, 
let alone headboy. One thing (maybe the only thing?) that you and I 
seem to agree on is that Snape comes across as quite intelligent as 
an adult, but Snape doesn't seem to have gotten much (if any) 
recognition for his intelligence when he was young. I imagine this 
was one of the things that irked him about James, too, and it has 
nothing to do with James being a jock.  Quite the contrary, it's 
because James was getting recognition for *scholastic* achievement 
while Snape wasn't. 

As for why Snape didn't receive any academic recognition (I wonder 
just how many Headmasters never even made prefect when they were 
students?), I see this lack of recognition as resulting from the 
faculty's perceiving Snape as a budding little Dark Wizard. I read 
Snape as having his life ruined by being Sorted into Slytherin. Of 
course, he would have preferred to be in Gryffindor with Lily, but I 
really see him as most suited for Ravenclaw. Had he been in 
Ravenclaw, I think his intense interest in the Dark Arts would have 
been seen in much less negative terms (he wasn't just obsessed with 
the Dark Arts; he was also obsessed with potions) and he might not 
have been ostracized, as he apparently was by most students, and 
perhaps even by some of the faculty. 

I just don't see the whole Snape/Marauder interaction as Snobby Snape 
looking down his nose at those jocky Gryffindors. I see it as a group 
of four popular kids bullying a kid who was "just this little 
oddball" (Sirius's description of young Severus) who was "clearly 
unpopular" (as Harry observes in the Snape's Worst Memory pensieve 
scene.) I don't think the Marauders bullied Snape because he was anti-
jock. I think they bullied Snape simply because they *could*. 

-- Judy, a nerd who is no good at chess, and who thinks adult Snape 
was sarcastic because there weren't many other hobbies open to double 
agents









From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 12 17:16:58 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:16:58 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fc5ar8+31ne@...>
Message-ID: <fc96ua+li00@...>

Judy:
> 
> As for why Snape didn't receive any academic recognition (I wonder 
> just how many Headmasters never even made prefect when they were 
> students?), I see this lack of recognition as resulting from the 
> faculty's perceiving Snape as a budding little Dark Wizard. I read 
> Snape as having his life ruined by being Sorted into Slytherin.

Pippin:
Nah, his life was ruined by Voldemort. If it hadn't been for Voldemort,
Lily would never have perceived Mary's harrassment as political, there'd
have been no Death Eaters for Snape to join, and his interest in forbidden
magic would have been perceived the way Tom Riddle's was, as the kind 
of thing that many  bright wizard kids are curious about.

But there was an organized effort to spread paranoia in wizarding
society, to make young wizards think that they had enemies, that
their way of life was in danger, and that wizards were being 
kept from their natural rights by ministry restrictions on magic. 

I think Lily could have held her own as an influence against Avery
and Mulciber, but against a DE organization which was trying
to pull as many wizards as possible into its orbit, no doubt telling
wizards to take back the day and such,  she was overmatched. 


I don't think Sev and Lily would have married, but they'd have
broken up for personal reasons rather than political ones.

Snape would have published his potions book, and he'd have
gotten a job somewhere in the potions industry, courtesy of
Lucius Malfoy's patronage. Then, apart from being the sort of
dangerous idiot who grumbles when he's had a drink or two 
that Muggles get away with murder, he'd have been okay.


Pippin




From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 12 18:46:49 2007
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:46:49 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fc96ua+li00@...>
Message-ID: <fc9c6p+desk@...>

Pippin wrote, in response to my claim that Snape's life was ruined by 
being Sorted into Slytherin:

> Nah, his life was ruined by Voldemort. 
> If it hadn't been for Voldemort, Lily would never
> have perceived Mary's harrassment as political, 
> there'd have been no Death Eaters for Snape to join, 
> and his interest in forbidden magic would have been 
> perceived the way Tom Riddle's was, as the kind 
> of thing that many  bright wizard kids are curious about.

Oh, a LOT of people had their lives ruined by Voldemort. Including, 
of course, Snape. So, I don't disagree here. However, if there had 
been no Voldemort, there would have been no Harry Potter books, and 
hence no Snape. So, I was viewing Snape's Sorting as being something 
that, hypothetically, could have come out differently (within the 
parameters of the Harry Potter story), whereas Voldemort's existence, 
and his evilness, were a given.

> Snape would have published his potions book, and he'd have
> gotten a job somewhere in the potions industry, courtesy of
> Lucius Malfoy's patronage. Then, apart from being the sort of
> dangerous idiot who grumbles when he's had a drink or two 
> that Muggles get away with murder, he'd have been okay.

I was really surprised that Snape turned out to have anti-Muggle 
feelings. Unlike most of the other Death Eaters, he's half-Muggle 
himself (and he's not a raving lunatic like Voldemort.) I suppose 
JKR's rationale was that Snape disliked Muggles because his main 
experience of them was his cruel Muggle father, or because he felt so 
different and cut off from the Muggle community where he was raised. 
But whatever the reason, I would have expected Snape to mostly grow 
out of his anti-Muggle feelings at Hogwarts, once he found that many 
magic-users treated him as badly as Muggles did. That he used the 
term "Mudblood" while at Hogwarts I attributed to the influence of 
his proto-Death Eater friends. Without Voldemort and his anti-Muggle 
philosophy, I'm not sure that adult Snape would even have grumbled 
about Muggles -- at least, no more than he grumbled about everything 
else. 

-- Judy




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Sep 15 04:50:28 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 04:50:28 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fc9c6p+desk@...>
Message-ID: <fcfoak+pvhj@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at ...> wrote:

> 
> I was really surprised that Snape turned out to have anti-Muggle 
> feelings. Unlike most of the other Death Eaters, he's half-Muggle 
> himself (and he's not a raving lunatic like Voldemort.) I suppose 
> JKR's rationale was that Snape disliked Muggles because his main 
> experience of them was his cruel Muggle father, or because he felt so 
> different and cut off from the Muggle community where he was raised. 

Pippin:
I think there was a bit more to it than that. The Ministry doesn't
seem to recognize emotional abuse as such, which means a witch
being emotionally abused can't use magic to defend herself or she
risks Azkaban for violating the statutes of secrecy for an
'unprovoked' attack on a Muggle. 

It would be frustrating for Snape to know he had the power to
defend his mother but wasn't allowed to use it. Naturally he'd think the
laws should be changed.  

Pippin




From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid  Sat Sep 15 07:46:27 2007
From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:46:27 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fcfoak+pvhj@...>
Message-ID: <fcg2kj+q8d1@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> I think there was a bit more to it than that. The Ministry doesn't
> seem to recognize emotional abuse as such, which means a witch
> being emotionally abused can't use magic to defend herself or she
> risks Azkaban for violating the statutes of secrecy for an
> 'unprovoked' attack on a Muggle. 

To me that doesn't make sense. A Muggle has to be allowed to find out
that his/her spouse is a wizard/witch, I mean how can it be required
to be kept secret after they're married? So the wizarding spouse doing
something to the Muggle spouse in private isn't revealing magic to
someone who isn't allowed to know about it.




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sat Sep 15 14:19:41 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:19:41 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fcg2kj+q8d1@...>
Message-ID: <fcgplt+8h4l@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth@> wrote:
> >
> > I think there was a bit more to it than that. The Ministry doesn't
> > seem to recognize emotional abuse as such, which means a witch
> > being emotionally abused can't use magic to defend herself or she
> > risks Azkaban for violating the statutes of secrecy for an
> > 'unprovoked' attack on a Muggle. 
> 
> To me that doesn't make sense. A Muggle has to be allowed to find out
> that his/her spouse is a wizard/witch, I mean how can it be required
> to be kept secret after they're married? So the wizarding spouse doing
> something to the Muggle spouse in private isn't revealing magic to
> someone who isn't allowed to know about it.
>

Pippin:
That Dudley already knew about magic wasn't used as a defense in
Harry's trial, so I don't think it matters. Apparently,  magic in the presence
of a Muggle is a crime whether the Muggle knows that it's magic
or not -- which makes sense if the goal is to restrict Muggle knowledge
of wizarding abilities so that Muggles will leave witches and wizards
alone and not demand help from them in solving their problems, as 
Hagrid said.

As I pointed out on TOL, when she hid her parents, Hermione did 
exactly what Salazar Slytherin was afraid Muggleborns would do: 
she violated wizarding law in the interest of Muggles. 

Pippin




From mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 16 03:19:45 2007
From: mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid (Mike)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 03:19:45 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fc5ar8+31ne@...>
Message-ID: <fci7ch+hncn@...>

> Judy wrote:

> Oh, my!  I have never read Snape as being especially anti-jock.  
> Rather, I see him as anti-JAMES. He intensely resented the 
> attention that Quidditch brought to James. 

Mike:
It was Sev's "brawny vs brainy" comment that clued me in, and that 
occured before James even showed he could control a broom, much less 
that he would turn out to be a Quidditch star. Why he thought Gryffs 
would be "brawny", I have no idea. Severus didn't even know which 
house would have the better team. But the comment did convince me 
that Severus looked down on those athletic types, it was code I'd 
heard before. It came in the company of two boys that he didn't know, 
wouldn't find out for two or more years that one would be good at 
*the* sport of the WW. It was a reflexive response from someone that 
disdains athletic types as unworthy.


> Judy added:
> As Rita (Catlady) notes, Snape is hostile to Gryffindors who aren't 
> jocks (Neville, Hermione), and positive to Draco, a Slytherin who 
> is a Quidditch player. In fact, I would point out that Hermione 
> isn't even remotely a jock; she's a *brain*. I'm not even certain 
> to what extent Snape is hostile to Gryffindors (the "jock house") 
> in general, since we don't see him pick on Dean, Seamus, Lavender, 
> or Parvati.

Mike:
Well, I didn't say it was Snape's *only* criteria for placing someone 
under the pedestal. I was also looking at young Severus versus the 
older Snape. I am attempting to analyze young Severus' comments for 
context. I don't know that he has reason to dislike Gryffindors from 
the get-go, but it seems he has already concluded that jocks are 
stupid, hasn't he?

But I am curious as to why you call Gryffindor "the jock house"? Did 
you pick up on something that I missed? I do remember that Oliver 
lamented the fact that Gryffindor didn't win the Q-cup until his 7th 
year.


> Judy continued:
> 
> Severus does *not* throw out the first insult. JAMES does. Severus 
> says he hopes Lily will be in Slytherin, and James (who wasn't 
> even part of the conversation) responds by saying, "Who wants to be
> in Slytherin?  I'd think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" to Sirius. This
> is *exactly* what Draco says about Hufflepuff.

Mike:
I might be cutting James too much slack, but I didn't consider 
his "I'd think I'd leave" comment as an insult to Slytherin, nor did 
I think Draco was insulting Hufflepuff. I took both those comments as 
a 'my house is better than your house' type braggadocio. I mean, 
don't you have to actually say something about the other house for it 
to count as an insult? Something besides, I don't wanna go *there*?

Now, Severus' "brain v brawn" said with a sneer, that qualified as an 
insult against Gryffindor, to me.


> Judy intoned:
> I find it amazing that anyone can read the interaction between 
> Snape and James/Sirius on the Hogwarts' train, and believe that it 
> was Snape who started the animosity.

Mike:
If I said that Severus started the hostilities, I apologize. I 
thought I had said that Severus would have opened the hostilities 
with *me*.


> Judy followed with:
> I also think, Mike, that you are overlooking the fact that Snape 
> wasn't the one getting academic honors as a student. JAMES was. 
> James becomes headboy and all the indications are that the teachers 
> considered him very smart. 

Mike:
Oh no, I didn't overlook that at all. I believe I had commented that 
I found myself in much the same position as James. Labelled as 
a "jock" by people that didn't know me and dismissed until and *if* 
those that once dismissed discovered that I wasn't stupid. Severus 
started out dismissing James with the "brawn v brain" comment.

Unfortunately for dear Sev, he was soon to find out that that was a 
false hope on his part. James was both. But had these two not been 
forced to spend the next seven years together, I've no doubt Sev 
would have walked away from that meeting convinced of his 
superiority. *That* is the attitude I'm identifying, that ability to 
dismiss the jocks as inferior.

I'm not sure what academic honors you've found for James. I do know 
the teachers thought him too smart for his own good. ;)


> Judy concedes:
> One thing (maybe the only thing?) that you and I 
> seem to agree on is that Snape comes across as quite intelligent as 
> an adult, but Snape doesn't seem to have gotten much (if any) 
> recognition for his intelligence when he was young. I imagine this 
> was one of the things that irked him about James, too, and it has 
> nothing to do with James being a jock.  Quite the contrary, it's 
> because James was getting recognition for *scholastic* achievement 
> while Snape wasn't. 

Mike concedes:
Yes Ma'am, I do think that Snape the adult was quite intelligent. I 
even venture that young Sev was quite smart. Then there's this 
disagreement: I think Snape *was* recognized as sharp when he was in 
school. Didn't Slughorn obliquely sing Snape's praises by his 
reference to his Potions brilliance vis-a-vis Harry's newfound 
brilliance via the HBP?

Warning: Soliloquy Coming On

Through the first six books I had correctly assumed that James Potter 
fancied Lily Evans. I had incorrectly assumed that Severus Snape 
adored Lily Evans from afar, or from a mild acquaintance position. 
Now that it turns out that Lily and Sev were friends from before 
starting Hogwarts, I've been forced to reassess their dynamic.

It seems that Severus was trying to defend his territory. He had the 
inside track to Lily's affection (at least in his mind) and he was 
doing everything in his power to deflect any dalliances that might 
occur to her. His strength was his brains, he was going to play up 
his strength and play down anybody (read; James Potter's) strengths 
as unworthy of notice.

Take the memory where Lily brings up Sev's friends playing around 
with Dark Magic. Severus brings up Potter and his mates 'getting up 
to stuff'. As the conversation progresses through Lupin's lycanthropy 
and the prank, Sev gets his foot up to his mouth and rapidly 
progresses towards fully ingesting it. After the "James Potter 
fancies you!" gets wrenched from his mouth, where does he go? "And 
he's not ... everyone thinks ... **big Quidditch hero** --".(1) 
That's it Sev, play down the rivals strength as unworthy of 
recognition. Notice that the only thing Sev manages to get out is the 
jock reference and he's in fifth year here. Seems he's *still* 
pounding away on the jockocracy.

Severus is not about to concede that James may also be smart. He's 
got his template, Potter the Quidditch hero, bah! Why does he think 
this may be affective? Lily must have already shown somewhat of a 
disdain for James. Remember "Messing up your hair because you think 
it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick, 
showing off with that stupid Snitch" (2) I'm sure Sev has picked up 
on Lily's indifference towards "Quidditch heros". Smart move on Sev's 
part to keep Lily's focus right there.

Right after Severus's reference to Quidditch hero, Lily rewards him 
with "I know James Potter's an arrogant toerag." (2) As far as Sev is 
concerned his directive arguments have worked. Lily doesn't 
particularly go for the jock, and when Sev brought up James athletic 
accumen, Lily responded with the "toerag" comment.

Unfortunately for Sev, Lily *has* noticed James Potter, and has 
noticed that he's not just a jock. She noticed he was "walking down 
corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can" (2) 
She isn't praising James for what he's *doing* with his brains, but 
she has noticed that he *has* them.

She has also taken note of James bravery. And this was where Sev lost 
it in that memory. "-- I won't let you --" was countered by Lily's 
"*Let* me? *Let* me?". This is one thing that Sev can't let stand, 
insofar as he can't let Lily think James was being brave. I don't get 
the impression that Sev's diversion attempt worked in this area.


> Judy concluded:
> I just don't see the whole Snape/Marauder interaction as Snobby 
> Snape looking down his nose at those jocky Gryffindors.

Mike:
I think you misunderstood my premise. I concluded that Snape was an 
intellectual snob from the beginning and that he staked out that 
position on their first encounter. The dynamic certainly evolved from 
there and, much to Severus' eventual chagrin, James proved to be more 
than a simple jock.

I also postulated that I would have enjoyed Sev's company just as 
much as James evidently did and probably for the same reasons that 
James enjoyed it. I probably wouldn't have tripped Snivellus as he 
was leaving the train compartment, but I probably would have expended 
as much effort towards friendship with him as James did.


> Judy closed with:
> I see it as a group of four popular kids bullying a kid who
> was "just this little oddball" (Sirius's description of young 
> Severus) who was "clearly unpopular" (as Harry observes in the 
> Snape's Worst Memory pensieve scene.) I don't think the 
> Marauders bullied Snape because he was anti-jock. I think 
> they bullied Snape simply because they *could*. 

Mike:
I have allowed myself to read between a few lines. I have assumed 
that Sirius' comment about "knowing more curses than most 7th years" 
with Harry's "clearly unpopular" observation and Lily's "I don't like 
some of the people you're hanging around with!...Mulciber!...D'you 
know what he tried to do to Mary..." meant that Snape did a few 
things himself to make these people aware of his leanings. 

I have also surmised that in the first few years of the 
Snape/Marauder dynamic, Snape held the upper hand. Clued in by 
Severus sitting next to prefect Malfoy after the sorting. It probably 
wasn't until their middle years at Hogwarts when the Marauders caught 
up. 

And I dispute the whole "four against one" argument, since we know 
that Severus hung with several DEs in training like himself, that 
Severus gave as good as he got, that he never missed his chance to 
hex James, and our only actual "bullying" episode was a two-on-one 
scuffle.


> -- Judy, a nerd who is no good at chess, and who thinks adult Snape 
> was sarcastic because there weren't many other hobbies open to 
> double agents

Mike, a jock who was good at chess, and thinks that James cannot be 
judged solely by pensieve scene labelled "Snape's Worst Memory" 
because there were plenty of testimonies in the books from many other 
characters that he wasn't a bad bloke.


(1) DH p. 674, US
(2) OotP p. 648, US




From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 16 08:04:24 2007
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:04:24 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fci7ch+hncn@...>
Message-ID: <fcio28+tj4r@...>

I said:
> > I just don't see the whole Snape/Marauder interaction as Snobby 
> > Snape looking down his nose at those jocky Gryffindors.

And Mike responded:
> I think you misunderstood my premise. I concluded that Snape was an 
> intellectual snob from the beginning and that he staked out that 
> position on their first encounter. The dynamic certainly evolved 
> from there and, much to Severus' eventual chagrin, James proved to 
> be more than a simple jock.

Mike also said:
> It was Sev's "brawny vs brainy" comment that clued me in, and that 
> occured before James even showed he could control a broom, much 
> less that he would turn out to be a Quidditch star. Why he thought 
> Gryffs would be "brawny", I have no idea. Severus didn't even know 
> which house would have the better team. But the comment did 
> convince me that Severus looked down on those athletic types, it 
> was code I'd heard before

> I might be cutting James too much slack, but I didn't consider 
> his "I'd think I'd leave" comment as an insult to Slytherin, nor 
> did I think Draco was insulting Hufflepuff. 
> I took both those comments as 
> a 'my house is better than your house' type braggadocio. I mean, 
> don't you have to actually say something about the other 
> house for it to count as an insult? Something besides, I don't 
> wanna go *there*? Now, Severus' "brain v brawn" said with a sneer,
> that qualified as an 
> insult against Gryffindor, to me.
 

Well, even if the premise is that Snape only *initially* believed 
James to be a "dumb jock" and that this led to the hostilities 
between them, I don't agree.  I think that Snape only made the 
comment that Gryffindor's were "brawny rather than brainy" because he 
felt that James was deliberately insulting him, and needed something 
to say in return.  

It looks like a lot here depends on one's interpretation of James' 
comment "Who'd want to be in Slytherin?  I think I'd leave, wouldn't 
you?" So, let me start by discussing that. It's Book 1 where we first 
hear someone say, "I'd think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" in reference 
to being Sorted into a certain House. In this case, Draco says it 
about Hufflepuff, during his first interaction with Harry. This whole 
interaction seems to be set up to give us a negative impression of 
Draco as arrogant and spoiled, if not just plain mean. (Draco also 
talks about "forcing" his father to buy him a broom, calls Hagrid a 
savage, disparages Muggleborns, and strongly reminds Harry of 
Dudley.) 

So, when James uses the exact same phrase in ("I'd think I'd leave, 
wouldn't you?") in reference to Slytherin, I take it that JKR intends 
James to be insulting Slytherin. I certainly don't see it as just as 
James' way of saying what House he'd like to be in. Remember, he has 
overheard Snape talking about Slytherin, and in response, he doesn't 
say anything to *Snape* at all.  Instead, he says  "Who'd want to be 
in Slytherin? I'd think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" to *Sirius*, 
pointedly giving Snape the cold shoulder. If James had just been 
expressing his own desire to be in Gryffindor, he could have said to 
Snape, "Hi, I'm James, and I want to be in Gryffindor." Even if he 
felt a need to express his negative feelings about Slytherin, saying 
to Snape, "Why would you want to be in Slytherin?  That's the Dark 
Wizard House," would have been a lot less hostile than commenting to 
someone else about Slytherin. By talking ABOUT Snape's choice, rather 
than TO Snape, James is clearly being antagonistic here. 

In general, I just can't see saying "I'd leave" as merely a way of 
expressing a desire to be in another House.  For most young magic-
users in Britain, Hogwarts is their ONLY real chance at an education. 
Leaving Hogwarts would mean turning one's back on the wizarding world 
and being a virtual outcast. Think about the terror that strikes 
Harry at the thought of being expelled (he thinks the most he'd be 
able to aspire to is being Hagrid's assistant), and look at the 
isolation and ignorance of  Slytherin's descendents, who refused to 
attend Hogwart's. True, it may be possible to attend another school, 
such as Durmstrang, but that may take connections and/or money ? 
Draco is the only one for whom it seems to be a possibility.  
So, "I'd leave" seems to mean, "I'd rather be marginalized and 
uneducated and impoverished than stay in THAT house." I can't see it 
as anything but a major insult.  

Given this context, I think it was very reasonable that Snape felt 
insulted and wanted to say something to defend himself. "If you'd 
rather be brawny than brainy," actually strikes me as pretty mild, 
given what James just said. As a matter of fact, plenty of kids WOULD 
rather be brawny than brainy ? probably most of them, I would guess. 
Growing up as an unathletic nerd, I never had the slightest feeling 
that any of the non-nerdy athletes wanted to change places with me. 
So, I have trouble seeing Snape's comment as much of an insult at 
all.  I see Snape's response as a nerd's attempt to defend himself 
and hold on to some vestige of self-esteem after being insulted. 

Mike, I believe you said in a previous post that you've encountered 
intellectual snobs in real life. So have I, but they tended to come 
from a very different background than Snape. The intellectual snobs I 
knew tended to be well-off, with private school backgrounds.  Snape 
is poor (he lives in a "Muggle dunghill," as Bellatrix calls it) and 
seems to have been very isolated prior to entering Hogwarts (and may 
have remained somewhat isolated even after entering Hogwarts, for 
that matter). I just can't see eleven-year-old Snape as a confidently 
smug highbrow.   

I said:
> > I find it amazing that anyone can read the interaction between 
> > Snape and James/Sirius on the Hogwarts' train, and believe that 
it 
> > was Snape who started the animosity.

Mike:
> If I said that Severus started the hostilities, I apologize. I 
> thought I had said that Severus would have opened the hostilities 
> with *me*.

Oh, definitely no need to apologize, and my apologies if I 
misunderstood you. Clearly, though, there were hostilities between 
Snape and James.  So, presumably someone started them.  I see it as 
very much James (and Sirius) who did.  My point was that I don't see 
how it can be read any other way.


I gave my view of how the Marauders interacted with Snape:
> > I see it as a group of four popular kids bullying a kid who
> > was "just this little oddball" (Sirius's description of young 
> > Severus) who was "clearly unpopular" (as Harry observes in the 
> > Snape's Worst Memory pensieve scene.) I don't think the 
> > Marauders bullied Snape because he was anti-jock. I think 
> > they bullied Snape simply because they *could*. 

And Mike responded:
> I have allowed myself to read between a few lines. I have assumed 
> that Sirius' comment about "knowing more curses than most 7th 
years" 
> with Harry's "clearly unpopular" observation and Lily's "I don't 
> like some of the people you're hanging around > 
with!...Mulciber!...D'you 
> know what he tried to do to Mary..." meant that Snape did a few 
> things himself to make these people aware of his leanings. 

Mike, it sounds here as if you have moved from saying that Snape 
*initiated* the hostilities with James because Snape looked down on 
athletes, to saying that James and Sirius were *entitled* to pick on 
Snape.  I clearly don't agree that they were entitled to pick on 
Snape, but whether they were or weren't isn't the question. What we 
were debating is the reason for the hostility between Snape and 
James. Saying that James was entitled to pick on Snape because James 
knew Snape was destined to be a Dark Wizard is a far cry from saying 
that *Snape* initiated the hostilities because he looked down on 
athletes.  

Mike said:
> I have also surmised that in the first few years of the 
> Snape/Marauder dynamic, Snape held the upper hand. Clued in by 
> Severus sitting next to prefect Malfoy after the sorting. 

I saw this as just the standard greeting upon being sorted into a 
particular House, analogous to the scene in Book 1 where Percy shakes 
Harry's hand. Percy's welcome certainly didn't stop 
Draco/Crabbe/Goyle from picking on Harry. Sure, Snape and Lucius 
presumably end up as friends (to the extent that someone like Lucius 
HAS friends), but Lucius was a minimum of four years ahead of Snape.  
So, he wouldn't have been around much to help Snape out if Snape was 
being picked on, just as Percy is rarely around when Draco picks on 
Harry. 


Mike said:
> And I dispute the whole "four against one" argument, since we know 
> that Severus hung with several DEs in training like himself, that 
> Severus gave as good as he got, that he never missed his chance to 
> hex James, and our only actual "bullying" episode was a two-on-one 
> scuffle.

This has been discussed a lot on the main list. Whether you see the 
attacks against Snape as two-against-one or four-against-one depends 
on questions such as the following: What would have happened if Snape 
had managed to disarm both Sirius & James ? would Peter and Remus 
have just stood there, or would one of them have at least given back 
James' & Sirius' wands? Unless you think Remus and Peter would have 
done nothing at all while James and Sirius lost, then winning a fight 
would have required Snape to defeat all four of the Marauders. I 
don't think Remus and Peter would have stood idly by if Snape were 
actually winning, which is why I see it as four-against-one. I assume 
you have never have a whole group of kids bullying you? I have. Just 
because they can't all hit you at once doesn't mean that the 
ringleaders' friends will remain neutral. 

As for the rest of your comments here, it seems that there were 
previous attacks by James & Sirius on Snape, because of how Snape 
responds as soon as he sees them. (Harry's impression is that Snape 
expects an attack.) As for Snape hanging out with other proto-Death 
Eaters, we never hear anything about Snape's friends attacking James 
or Sirius. And, Lily asks James what Snape has done to James, and all 
James can come up with is, "It's more the fact that he exists, if you 
know what I mean." Hardly evidence that Snape and his friends were 
bullying James. 



Mike asked:
> But I am curious as to why you call Gryffindor "the jock house"? 
Did 
> you pick up on something that I missed? 

I've seen the following interpretation of the Hogwarts Houses:  
Ravenclaws are the Nerds. Gryffindors are the Jocks. Slytherins are 
the Goths. (Hufflepuffs are ? well maybe the Goody-two-shoes or maybe 
just the kids who don't fit the other categories, depending on your 
interpretation of Hufflepuff.)  The nerds-jocks-goths division makes 
sense to me.  I don't think it's surprising that Snape identifies 
Gryffindor with athletics, given the Gryffindor emphasis on bravery 
and action.



Mike said:
> It seems that Severus was trying to defend his territory. He had 
the 
> inside track to Lily's affection (at least in his mind) and he was 
> doing everything in his power to deflect any dalliances that might 
> occur to her. His strength was his brains, he was going to play up 
> his strength and play down anybody (read; James Potter's) strengths 
> as unworthy of notice.

.
> Severus is not about to concede that James may also be smart. He's 
> got his template, Potter the Quidditch hero, bah! Why does he think 
> this may be affective? Lily must have already shown somewhat of a 
> disdain for James. Remember "Messing up your hair because you think 
> it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick, 
> showing off with that stupid Snitch" (2) I'm sure Sev has picked up 
> on Lily's indifference towards "Quidditch heros". Smart move on 
Sev's 
> part to keep Lily's focus right there.

I pretty much agree with this, except that I'm not convinced that 
Snape ever felt he had "the inside track" to Lily's affections.  For 
example, it seems he never told her how he felt about her; I take 
that to mean he suspected his romantic feelings were not 
reciprocated.  I do believe, however, that Snape's love for Lily was 
central to his life and his actions. (I have been on record as saying 
this since early 2002, and of course, the last few books have only 
confirmed my beliefs in this area.)

So, I agree that Snape desperately wanted to deflect any feelings 
Lily might have for James. Given that we agree on this, and given 
that Lily seems to be annoyed by James' status as a "big Quidditch 
hero," I don't really see why you are so convinced that Snape is anti-
jock. I see his rivalry with James as enough to explain his 
disparaging remarks about Quidditch


 Mike said he:
> thinks that James cannot be 
> judged solely by pensieve scene labelled "Snape's Worst Memory" 
> because there were plenty of testimonies in the books from many  
> other characters that he wasn't a bad bloke.

I'm not saying that James was a bad guy OVERALL. He joined the Order. 
He died trying to protect his wife and child. Those are very, very 
positive actions. But, on the topic of whether he was a bully to 
Snape, well, his own son becomes very distressed at this possibility, 
and what explanation do James' two best friends give him for James' 
behavior towards Snape? That James was the best in everything he did, 
and sometimes got carried away and was an "arrogant little berk."  
Not much of a justification, if you ask me. 

-- Judy, loyal Snapefan




From judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 16 08:24:29 2007
From: judy at judyserenity.yahoo.invalid (Judy)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:24:29 -0000
Subject: Snape's anti-muggle feelings (was Re: Snobby Snape?)
In-Reply-To: <fcfoak+pvhj@...>
Message-ID: <fcip7t+o7l7@...>

I said:
> > I was really surprised that Snape turned out to have anti-Muggle 
> > feelings. Unlike most of the other Death Eaters, he's half-Muggle 
> > himself (and he's not a raving lunatic like Voldemort.) I suppose 
> > JKR's rationale was that Snape disliked Muggles because his main 
> > experience of them was his cruel Muggle father, or because he 
> > felt so different and cut off from the Muggle community where he 
> > was raised. 

Pippin responded:
> I think there was a bit more to it than that. The Ministry doesn't
> seem to recognize emotional abuse as such, which means a witch
> being emotionally abused can't use magic to defend herself or she
> risks Azkaban for violating the statutes of secrecy for an
> 'unprovoked' attack on a Muggle. 
> 
> It would be frustrating for Snape to know he had the power to
> defend his mother but wasn't allowed to use it. Naturally he'd 
> think the laws should be changed.  

That's an interesting possibility, but I tend to agree with Rita that 
the Secrecy Statute wouldn't apply to spouses of magic-users. I don't 
see any way that magic could be kept secret from the spouse of a 
witch or wizard, especially not since half-blood children are almost 
always magical, and young magical children tend to use magic 
uncontrollably.

In fact, we see Lily's parents and sister on Platform 9&3/4, and 
Hermione's parents go shopping in Diagon Alley, so there seems to be 
no real attempt to keep magic a secret from immediate family members 
of magic users. Tobias Snape had both a magical son and a magical 
wife, so keeping the existence of magic a secret from him would have 
been even more pointless than keeping it secret from the Grangers or 
Evans.  

As for Harry being accused of doing magic in the presence of Dudley, 
the charges against Harry were clearly trumped up, and mostly focused 
on underage magic use. 

I do think Snape's father being a Muggle may have been a major reason 
for his disliking Muggles. As for whether Snape felt he couldn't use 
magic against his father to protect his mother, for all we know, 
maybe Severus *did* use magic against Tobias. We don't even know if 
Tobias lived at the house on Spinner's End after Severus got a wand 
and some training; we only see or hear references to Tobias being 
there before Severus goes off to Hogwarts. Maybe later Severus drove 
Tobias away. (I think I would have.) 

As for why Eileen didn't defend herself, I tend to see her as being 
like Merope -- so depressed at the failure of her marriage that she 
lost her ability to use magic. 

Poor Severus' childhood strikes me as tragic.  It's one of the 
reasons why I have so much synpathy for the character.

-- Judy





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 16 16:34:26 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:34:26 -0000
Subject: Snape's anti-muggle feelings (was Re: Snobby Snape?)
In-Reply-To: <fcip7t+o7l7@...>
Message-ID: <fcjlui+6j3m@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy at ...> wrote:

> 
> In fact, we see Lily's parents and sister on Platform 9&3/4, and 
> Hermione's parents go shopping in Diagon Alley, so there seems to be 
> no real attempt to keep magic a secret from immediate family members 
> of magic users. Tobias Snape had both a magical son and a magical 
> wife, so keeping the existence of magic a secret from him would have 
> been even more pointless than keeping it secret from the Grangers or 
> Evans.  

Pippin:
And the Ministry of Magic doesn't have any pointless, silly laws on
the books that it can enforce selectively whenever it likes? When,
for instance, anti-Muggle attacks are on the rise and they need a
convenient scapegoat or two, like Stan Shunpike or Hagrid? Is
there some reason to think they *wouldn't* bring trumped-up
charges against Mme Snape?

Wasn't there something in the WOMBAT's about a witch who
turned her Muggle husband into a table and what charges she
would face?

Judy:
> Poor Severus' childhood strikes me as tragic.  It's one of the 
> reasons why I have so much synpathy for the character.


Pippin:
Agreed.

Pippin




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 16 16:54:11 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:54:11 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fci7ch+hncn@...>
Message-ID: <fcjn3j+jls1@...>


> Mike:
> It was Sev's "brawny vs brainy" comment that clued me in, and that 
> occured before James even showed he could control a broom, much less 
> that he would turn out to be a Quidditch star. Why he thought Gryffs 
> would be "brawny", I have no idea. 

Pippin:
Because James drew and brandished an imaginary sword, and
the sword was something Godric Gryffindor was famous for.
Clearly James fancied himself a future as a man of action.
Ironic that his one great moment as an action hero was
saving Snape.

If Snape looked down on athletic types, it's odd that he was
such a fan of the Slytherin Quidditch team. Snape wore green in its 
honor, arranged extra practices so they could train a new
Seeker, lorded it over Minerva when Slytherin won, and shook
hands with a horrible forced grin when it lost. It was thought
perfectly plausible that he would referee a match to keep
Gryffindor from winning. 

Not only that, he was an extremely competent flyer himself, good 
enough to referee a match and to be part of the war party attacking
Harry in DH.

JKR makes him seem nearsighted when he's bent so close to the
page in his OWLs. Could be that's the only reason he didn't become
a Seeker himself. Hmm...wonder if Dumbledore got him contacts? 

Pippin
who thinks Snape was a Slytherin Snob, not an anti-Jock Snob




From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 16 16:57:54 2007
From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:57:54 -0000
Subject: Snape's anti-muggle feelings (was Re: Snobby Snape?)
In-Reply-To: <fcjlui+6j3m@...>
Message-ID: <fcjnai+3i9e@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy@> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > In fact, we see Lily's parents and sister on Platform 9&3/4, and 
> > Hermione's parents go shopping in Diagon Alley, so there seems to 
be 
> > no real attempt to keep magic a secret from immediate family 
members 
> > of magic users. Tobias Snape had both a magical son and a magical 
> > wife, so keeping the existence of magic a secret from him would 
have 
> > been even more pointless than keeping it secret from the Grangers 
or 
> > Evans.  
> 
> Pippin:
> And the Ministry of Magic doesn't have any pointless, silly laws on
> the books that it can enforce selectively whenever it likes? When,
> for instance, anti-Muggle attacks are on the rise and they need a
> convenient scapegoat or two, like Stan Shunpike or Hagrid? Is
> there some reason to think they *wouldn't* bring trumped-up
> charges against Mme Snape?
> 

Anne:
Well, if you're going to argue something that mushy, there's no point 
arguing at all; the answer to every question would be "who knows?"

I think Judy's canon is sound.

Pippin:
> Wasn't there something in the WOMBAT's about a witch who
> turned her Muggle husband into a table and what charges she
> would face?
> 

Anne:
Sort of.  The possible answers involved which department of the 
Ministry you'd sic on her.  And one of them was "none of the above."





From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Sun Sep 16 23:36:55 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:36:55 -0000
Subject: Snape's anti-muggle feelings (was Re: Snobby Snape?)
In-Reply-To: <fcjnai+3i9e@...>
Message-ID: <fckemn+kv0m@...>


> Anne:
> Well, if you're going to argue something that mushy, there's no point 
> arguing at all; the answer to every question would be "who knows?"
> 
> I think Judy's canon is sound.

Pippin:
I'd like to think so. But...

Laws in a police state *are* mushy; they mean whatever the
enforcers want them to mean. All it would take is one vindictive
official who doesn't like the idea of a muggle/witch marriage
to make Eileen's life hell one way or another. And from what
we've been reading, there would have been dozens. The point
is not which laws they could use to harrass Eileen, the point is
they'd want to.

If Harry Potter could be subject to government harrassment, 
then it must have been positively routine for everyone else. 


Pippin




From mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 17 03:40:27 2007
From: mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid (Mike)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 03:40:27 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fcio28+tj4r@...>
Message-ID: <fcksvb+j1sm@...>

> Judy wrote: 
> 
> Well, even if the premise is that Snape only *initially* believed 
> James to be a "dumb jock" and that this led to the hostilities 
> between them, I don't agree.  I think that Snape only made the 
> comment that Gryffindor's were "brawny rather than brainy" because 
> he felt that James was deliberately insulting him, and needed 
> something to say in return. 
>
> And Pippin added:
> Because James drew and brandished an imaginary sword, and
> the sword was something Godric Gryffindor was famous for.
> Clearly James fancied himself a future as a man of action.

Mike:
Right, but where did Severus go when he needed something, anything 
for a response? He compared his brains to James' brawn, which in 
modern times unlike Godric's times, is code for athlete instead of 
knight. It turns out Sev was prescient in this comment as James does 
become this "Quidditch hero".


> Judy:
> I don't really see why you are so convinced that Snape is anti-
> jock. I see his rivalry with James as enough to explain his 
> disparaging remarks about Quidditch.

Mike:
Obviously I'm not getting this across. Snapes *initial* reaction was 
the anti-jock comment. That was their *starting* point. Snape did 
continue to use this, at least as far as fifth year. But it was by no 
means the only thing, and probably not the largest complaint of Sev's 
by this time. 

Yet, I remember a few people on TOL saying that Lupin was clueless 
when he claimed that Snape was jealous of James' Quidditch 
accomplishments. The DH memories show otherwise, don't they? Snape 
does resent James' "Quidditch hero" status at least into 5th year.

 
> Judy again:
> 
> In general, I just can't see saying "I'd leave" as merely a way of 
> expressing a desire to be in another House.  For most young magic-
> users in Britain, Hogwarts is their ONLY real chance at an 
> education. Leaving Hogwarts would mean turning one's back on the 
> wizarding world and being a virtual outcast. 
> - and-
> So, "I'd leave" seems to mean, "I'd rather be marginalized and 
> uneducated and impoverished than stay in THAT house." I can't see 
> it as anything but a major insult.

Mike:
Way, waaay too literal. They're 11-year-olds, they're not that 
deep. "I'd leave" as an insult, would be no more than "your house 
sucks". Anything more is not a concept they would comprehend.


> Judy:
> Mike, I believe you said in a previous post that you've encountered 
> intellectual snobs in real life. So have I, but they tended to come 
> from a very different background than Snape. The intellectual snobs 
> I knew tended to be well-off, with private school backgrounds.

Mike:
Oh yeah, rub it in, even your "snobs" are upper crust unlike my 
middle of the road encounters. LOL 

Really, most of the intellectual snobs I've met are simply smart 
nerds. Just like Snape. And nowadays, none of them would know that I 
used to be a jock, so that doesn't really come up too often. But 
looking at the young Severus, I saw that anti-jock snobbery there in 
the beginning, and it seems to have taken adulthood for him to grow 
out of it.

  
> Judy:
> I just can't see eleven-year-old Snape as a confidently 
> smug highbrow.   

Mike:
Not confident, more likely putting on airs. 


> Judy:
> Mike, it sounds here as if you have moved from saying that Snape 
> *initiated* the hostilities with James because Snape looked down on 
> athletes, to saying that James and Sirius were *entitled* to pick 
> on Snape.  I clearly don't agree that they were entitled to pick on 
> Snape, but whether they were or weren't isn't the question. What we 
> were debating is the reason for the hostility between Snape and 
> James. Saying that James was entitled to pick on Snape because 
> James knew Snape was destined to be a Dark Wizard is a far cry from 
> saying that *Snape* initiated the hostilities because he looked 
> down on athletes.

Mike:
Two different things completely. But do let me make something clear. 
Snape's response to James on the train is essentially a shot in the 
dark, it's him guessing that James is a "brawny" type with nothing 
but the sword brandishing clue to go on. From that point forward, 
there must have been various conflicts that defined and redefined 
their enmity. 

That James did become the "brawny" athlete remained *a* constant. 
(The funny thing is that I never got the sense that James was brawny 
at all; more likely a skinny but physical fit kid) But the Quidditch 
stuff probably isn't really foremost of Sev's complaints in the later 
years. I'd guess the hexing battles most likely kept the 
conversations lively.

Now, I'm not claiming any entitlement for any of these antagonists. 
All I'm saying is that there are enough clues for me to believe that 
Severus took part in his share of hexing during this time, and that 
MWPP undoubtedly were on the receiving end once in a while.

Oh yeah; I know we were talking about what Sev disliked about James. 
Judy dear, you were the one that expanded into the whole Marauder v 
Snape dynamic. I was just responding to your new topic. ;)



> Judy:
> This has been discussed a lot on the main list. Whether you see the 
> attacks against Snape as two-against-one or four-against-one 

Mike:
How about if I see a few Severus plus 2 or 3 against one or two of 
the Marauders? Snape had Slytherin friends, those friends had their 
fun against some Gryffs. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to 
see Severus joining in their reindeer games, he's no Rudolph.


> Judy:
> 
> As for Snape hanging out with other proto-Death Eaters, we never 
> hear anything about Snape's friends attacking James or Sirius. 
> And, Lily asks James what Snape has done to James, and all James 
> can come up with is, "It's more the fact that he exists, if you 
> know what I mean." Hardly evidence that Snape and his friends were 
> bullying James. 

Mike:
Yes we did hear about Sev hexing James. Sirius and Lupin allow as to 
how "he never lost an opportunity to curse James" into their seventh 
year.  Sev's one of those future DEs, he's as much as admitted it to 
Lily, he invented all those cute little hexes and jinxes. How does a 
non-verbal spell become popular if it was never used by it's 
inventor? No, I'm not buying Snow White Sev who never initiates or 
plans any counter attacks.

Snape's Worst Memory was *one* encounter, with Sev being caught out 
in the open with no backup. If Sev's friends were there, do you think 
*they* would have just stood aside and watched?

Mike, a big Marauder fan :))




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Mon Sep 17 20:55:28 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:55:28 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fcksvb+j1sm@...>
Message-ID: <fcmpk0+kn8h@...>


> Mike:
> Right, but where did Severus go when he needed something, anything 
> for a response? He compared his brains to James' brawn, which in 
> modern times unlike Godric's times, is code for athlete instead of 
> knight. It turns out Sev was prescient in this comment as James does 
> become this "Quidditch hero".

Pippin:
But there's this huge Quidditch rivalry between Slytherin and Gryffindor,
so how can Gryffindor be the one and only jock house? And anyway,
how would obviously home-schooled Snape know anything about what  
brawn vs brain is a modern code for? 

Pippin
noting that Flint's Slytherin Quidditch team is heavy on brawn and
light on brains except for Draco




From mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 18 00:31:21 2007
From: mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid (Mike)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:31:21 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fcmpk0+kn8h@...>
Message-ID: <fcn68p+u398@...>

> > Mike opined:
> > He compared his brains to James' brawn, which in modern times 
> > unlike Godric's times, is code for athlete instead of knight. 
> > It turns out Sev was prescient in this comment as James does 
> > become this "Quidditch hero".
> 
> Pippin responded:
> But there's this huge Quidditch rivalry between Slytherin and 
> Gryffindor, so how can Gryffindor be the one and only jock house?

Mike answers:
I don't know, didn't think so, but Judy made that connection in her 
previous post then explained it in her last post. Kinda makes sense 
to me. But it's not important here. The only important thing here is 
that Snape *thinks* Gryffindor is the House of Brawn.


> Pippin asks another:
> And anyway, how would obviously home-schooled Snape know 
> anything about what brawn vs brain is a modern code for?

Mike:
I went ahead and made a leap of faith and guessed that young Severus 
knew there were no longer knights roaming the realm. I then assumed 
that his brawn comment, though probably made in light of James 
brandishing his imaginary sword, did not put Severus in mind of James 
receiving his knight apprenticeship while at Hogwarts. I had also 
guessed that though Sev probably never competed, he was aware that 
sports did exist in these modern times, and that is where 
the "brawny" compete nowadays.

What do you think Severus was referring to with his "brawny" remark?
 

> Pippin
> noting that Flint's Slytherin Quidditch team is heavy on brawn and
> light on brains except for Draco

Mike, wondering if Pippin adopted her nomme de guerre from that "Fool 
of a Took", the Retriever that fell prey to Bruce in Jaws, or if she 
simply wears knee-high hosiery? <bg>




From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 18 01:49:01 2007
From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:49:01 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Re: Snobby Snape?
References: <fcksvb+j1sm@...>
Message-ID: <00d901c7f996$47dfac00$482fdcd1@...>

Since it was Snape who invented the Levicorpus jinx, it stands to reason that James learned it from  him, most likely by having it cast on him by Snape. One of the things that made the pensieve memory Snape's worst was that his own spell was used against him by the detested James, to make him look contemptible in front of Lily.

I see young Snape as being in sort of the same relationship to the Lucius set as Peter Pettigrew was to the Marauders: A flunky, tolerated because of something he had to offer them. In Peter's case it was admiration and flattery (as well as being a butt for his set's ridicule); in Snape's it would have been his brilliance at using and inventing jinxes and curses.

Isn't it more or less canon that what Snape really hated about James was that James was cozying up to Lily and Lily didn't half mind?

Frankly, I don't see much to admire about the Marauders (neither did Sirius and Lupin, in later life), but chacun sa go?te, as they say at Beauxbatons.

--Gatta



  Mike:
  Now, I'm not claiming any entitlement for any of these antagonists. 
  All I'm saying is that there are enough clues for me to believe that 
  Severus took part in his share of hexing during this time, and that 
  MWPP undoubtedly were on the receiving end once in a while.

  Oh yeah; I know we were talking about what Sev disliked about James. 
  Judy dear, you were the one that expanded into the whole Marauder v 
  Snape dynamic. I was just responding to your new topic. ;)

  <SNIP>


  How about if I see a few Severus plus 2 or 3 against one or two of 
  the Marauders? Snape had Slytherin friends, those friends had their 
  fun against some Gryffs. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to 
  see Severus joining in their reindeer games, he's no Rudolph.

  <SNIP>

  Yes we did hear about Sev hexing James. Sirius and Lupin allow as to 
  how "he never lost an opportunity to curse James" into their seventh 
  year. Sev's one of those future DEs, he's as much as admitted it to 
  Lily, he invented all those cute little hexes and jinxes. How does a 
  non-verbal spell become popular if it was never used by it's 
  inventor? No, I'm not buying Snow White Sev who never initiates or 
  plans any counter attacks.

  Snape's Worst Memory was *one* encounter, with Sev being caught out 
  in the open with no backup. If Sev's friends were there, do you think 
  *they* would have just stood aside and watched?

  Mike, a big Marauder fan :))



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid  Tue Sep 18 02:33:57 2007
From: katmac at lagattalucianese.yahoo.invalid (Kat Macfarlane)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:33:57 -0700
Subject: [the_old_crowd] Snape's anti-muggle feelings (was Re: Snobby Snape?)
References: <fcip7t+o7l7@...>
Message-ID: <00ed01c7f99c$87b8d440$482fdcd1@...>

Snape's whole life was tragic. I find it hard to forgive JKR for writing him off the way she did. His book is burned to ashes in the RoR fire, and he himself is killed by mistake because Voldemort couldn't get his facts straight about how the Elder Wand operates. He loses Lily, first to James and then to Voldemort. He is used as a pawn not only by Voldemort but also by Dumbledore, and the fact that he cannot reveal the latter fact to Voldemort leaves him in a bind that results in his death ("Well, you see, Ol' Redeye, I really *didn't* defeat Dumbledore, because he *wanted* me to kill him, and anyway, it was really Draco that defeated him by getting his wand, so go look for Draco..." Un-uh, don't think so.) The Trio take off and leave his body in the SS, and there isn't even any indication that he receives any recognition after death. Except for Harry's belated tribute to him, it's as if he has been completely forgotten, and yet, with Harry, he is the one most central to defeating Voldemort.

Did anyone besides me see Hermione's reaction to Snape's death ("She glanced at Snape's body, then hurried back to the tunnel entrance.") as a slap at the SS/HG shippers?

--Gatta



  <QUITE A BIG SNIP>

  Poor Severus' childhood strikes me as tragic. It's one of the 
  reasons why I have so much synpathy for the character.

  -- Judy



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 19 19:37:23 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:37:23 -0000
Subject: Snape's anti-muggle feelings (was Re: Snobby Snape?)
In-Reply-To: <00ed01c7f99c$87b8d440$482fdcd1@...>
Message-ID: <fcrtpj+eds0@...>

--- In the_old_crowd at yahoogroups.com, "Kat Macfarlane" <katmac at ...> wrote:
>
> Snape's whole life was tragic. I find it hard to forgive JKR for writing him off the way she 
did. His book is burned to ashes in the RoR fire, and he himself is killed by mistake 
because Voldemort couldn't get his facts straight about how the Elder Wand operates. He 
loses Lily, first to James and then to Voldemort. He is used as a pawn not only by 
Voldemort but also by Dumbledore, and the fact that he cannot reveal the latter fact to 
Voldemort leaves him in a bind that results in his death ("Well, you see, Ol' Redeye, I really 
*didn't* defeat Dumbledore, because he *wanted* me to kill him, and anyway, it was really 
Draco that defeated him by getting his wand, so go look for Draco..." Un-uh, don't think 
so.) The Trio take off and leave his body in the SS,

Pippin:
They could hardly take Snape's body with them, even if they transformed it 
into something else. Voldemort definitely would have noticed if he came
back and it had disappeared. It wouldn't have been very good if he'd
found them in the tunnel.

BTW, that tunnel seems to change size in a very wonderlandish way--
it can't possibly have been that narrow in PoA, even allowing for the
fact that the Trio are now bigger. But perhaps it had been partly
dug by magic and the spell was wearing away.  

Back to Snape--
Tragic is not the same as wasted.
Harry tells Ron and Hermione "painstakingly" everything that happened
in the Pensieve, so he definitely does get recognition, besides of course
that Harry told the whole hall that Snape had been on Dumbledore's
side for ages. Naming his son after Snape is sort of the icing on the
cake, though it wouldn't, as JKR says, stop Rita Skeeter from writing
Snape: saint or scoundrel. In truth he was neither, IMO, but I don't
see him as completely Dumbledore's pawn. How could Dumbledore
be jerking him around by his feelings for Lily when he didn't even
know that Snape still had feelings for her?

Dumbledore could not know for certain that Harry harbored a horcrux
and would have to be destroyed when he asked Snape to protect
him for Lily's sake, either. In any case once Snape knew the truth,
and Dumbledore was gone, he was answerable only to his own
desire to protect Hogwarts and  to see Voldemort
brought down.  On the night he returned to Voldemort in GoF,
"If you are ready, if you are prepared" he already knew his life was not
as important to Dumbledore as the Plan, but he still went. 

JKR obviously isn't going to hold him up as a hero for young readers,
who wouldn't admire him anyway. But as Chesteron said, "Children
are innocent and love justice, while most adults are wicked and prefer
mercy."  The same might be said of heroes and anti-heroes.

I didn't see Hermione's reaction as any kind of a slap at Snape/
Hermione shippers, just an acknowledgement that Hermione's
thoughts were focused on Harry and Ron, and on getting away
from Voldemort. 

Pippin




From foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid  Wed Sep 19 20:38:22 2007
From: foxmoth at pippin_999.yahoo.invalid (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:38:22 -0000
Subject: Snobby Snape?
In-Reply-To: <fcn68p+u398@...>
Message-ID: <fcs1bu+tbrf@...>


> Mike:.
> 
> What do you think Severus was referring to with his "brawny" remark?
>  

Pippin:
He was serving notice that he recognized that Sirius and James could 
probably beat him up, but he was telling them (and Lily) that
they weren't going to be able to outsmart him.

> Mike, wondering if Pippin adopted her nomme de guerre from that "Fool 
> of a Took", the Retriever that fell prey to Bruce in Jaws, or if she 
> simply wears knee-high hosiery? <bg>

Pippin:
"I am a Halfling --hard, bold and wicked." -- but as Pippin went on to 
say, you shouldn't believe everything that strangers say of themselves <g>